Benefits

[Ocean1]

I think China has a bigger gap between rich and poor than western societies.


Hmmmm,dunno about that....

Trust me, it has.

And it's got fuck all to do with communism and rather a lot to do with a monopolistic system closely resembling feudalism.

You really don't want to live there if you expect to survive on your own merits.




You don't?

[jonbuoy]

I don't have to like it, you may well be correct. People are funny brids and there are still people today that believe in all sorts of mumbo jumbo but that doesn't mean that the mumbo jumbo is of any benefit to society.

If you don't repect the Witch Doctor, he'll make your knob drop off. If your a king with a festering wound and no one else can help of course you're going to seek the services of a Doctor, what have you got to loose? What has the Doctor got to gain if he can convince the King he is in fact making things better?

Yup, if you don´t pay the Shaman his chicken or make a big building for your god you won´t get into the big playboy mansion in the sky. We put a funny value on some things.

[puddytat]

Trust me, it has.

And it's got fuck all to do with communism and rather a lot to do with a monopolistic system closely resembling feudalism.

You really don't want to live there if you expect to survive on your own merits.




You don't?

I agree with what you say....but I survive on my own merits now. I agree the bastardisation of the original theory has meant that it resembles the thing it was meant to replace, alot like Russia now has a different "ism" than what it had before Perestroika.
The "ism" (doctorine or system)has a lot to answer for I reckon,seems to ultimately end up as a schism.
Why are we always stuck with either left or right when maybe we'd be happy with a compromiseism?

[jonbuoy]

Why not? Because someone is smarter? It takes knowledge, that's all. You're right, communism doesn't going far enough, because it still relies on some form of reward system. Get over the need for a reward system and accept that your basic needs are going to be met and you have something entirely different. Something that would also include the ability to have toys and stuff.

The bin man is more valuable to society than a Doctor. As mentioned, until you need a Doctor, they're useless. The Labourers skills are more transferable from job to job. So yeah, I'd say they were more valuable.

Why wouldn't a labourer be able to remove an appendix? They're already good with tools and understand how to follow instructions. Where's the problem, other than lack of experience?

Yes some people are smarter than others, you don´t think so? Its not just repeating things parrot like from memory or books

I don´t think I could be a Doctor, Surgeon, Fast Jet Pilot or or run a multi million dollar company, pretty sure any of them can pick up rubbish or dig a hole, or even lay bricks with a bit of practice - its not rocket science - but rocket science is rocket science :blink:.

Not belittling anyone who does dig holes for a living, way more important than budging on the dole and a lot of smart people are quite happy doing manual labour.

[BoristheBiter]

No I'm not kidding, 150 years ago they didn't know about bacteria or infection, gthey had no anaesthetics. It was only 60 or so years ago they discovered antibiotics.

All that aside, the point I was making and stand by is that society needed and benefited from labourers long before it got any practical benefit from Doctors.

Maybe but back then it was called slavery.

[mashman]

Yes some people are smarter than others, you don´t think so? Its not just repeating things parrot like from memory or books

I don´t think I could be a Doctor, Surgeon, Fast Jet Pilot or or run a multi million dollar company, pretty sure any of them can pick up rubbish or dig a hole, or even lay bricks with a bit of practice - its not rocket science - but rocket science is rocket science .

Not belittling anyone who does dig holes for a living, way more important than budging on the dole and a lot of smart people are quite happy doing manual labour.

Not inherently, no. I believe you can educate people to do anything. Some will become innovators, but innovation doesn't make them smarter than the next guy/gal. It just means they have thought about something in a slightly different way and come up with something new. They may well be as dumb as a box of spanners the rest of the time.

People find and enjoy different things, so as you mention "smart" folk may well end up enjoying the dole or diggin ditches or becoming rocket scientists (ain't there amateur clubs full of non-rocket scientist rocket scientists around the world?) ... our value system is so fucked up, the perception of value of 1 human over another that is, that we have the wrong people in the wrong jobs all over the world... some because they have a nice smile, some because they can parrot the talk, some because they haven't got the cash or time to retrain etc... I honeslty believe that given the time to retrain, I could be a Doctor/Surgeon/Jet Pilot/run a multi-million $$$ company etc... although I'd rather be a stay at home dad (probably retrain too, but am hamstrung by $$$) and actually think about my future instead of grinding the days out being relatively useless until the day I pop my clogs.

[racefactory]

Not inherently, no. I believe you can educate people to do anything. Some will become innovators, but innovation doesn't make them smarter than the next guy/gal. It just means they have thought about something in a slightly different way and come up with something new. They may well be as dumb as a box of spanners the rest of the time.

People find and enjoy different things, so as you mention "smart" folk may well end up enjoying the dole or diggin ditches or becoming rocket scientists (ain't there amateur clubs full of non-rocket scientist rocket scientists around the world?) ... our value system is so fucked up, the perception of value of 1 human over another that is, that we have the wrong people in the wrong jobs all over the world... some because they have a nice smile, some because they can parrot the talk, some because they haven't got the cash or time to retrain etc... I honeslty believe that given the time to retrain, I could be a Doctor/Surgeon/Jet Pilot/run a multi-million $$$ company etc... although I'd rather be a stay at home dad (probably retrain too, but am hamstrung by $$$) and actually think about my future instead of grinding the days out being relatively useless until the day I pop my clogs.

Yep it's a values system disorder. There is a particularly strong stigma against people on the dole in this country though. People are blind; they blame the dole bludgers for not contributing to the slave machine, while the powers that be continue to laugh upon us. We look up to our slave masters, the Wall St slobs who rape and pillage us from behind and instead we show disgust at fellow dustbin men who help keep our head and shoulders above the rot. They then just give us an election to keep us happy and lead us to believe we can change things, throw in a few terrorists that are jealous of our freedom and it's all hunkey dorey. Fucking tragic.

None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who believe they are free.

.

[Banditbandit]

Some people could never make it as a Doctor, Lawyer, Brain Surgeon, Company Director. Some people are smarter than others. Communism doesn´t work, fact.

Where is your evidence that communism doesn't work .. given that there has never been a truly Communist country and Communism is only a stage in the progression from Capitalism to Socalism to Communism to the Dictatorship of the proletariat (unfortunate choice of Mr Marx for the final stage ...)

And which particular brand of Communism do you think will not work?

[Banditbandit]

Nice idea in theory, in the words of Frank Zappa

"communism doesn´t work because people like to own stuff".

I think China has a bigger gap between rich and poor than western societies.

Who said that in a Communist society peole could not own stuff? The concept of priv ate property as theft is actually an anarchist one - yes I will concede that Anarchism is also known as "libertarian communism" ... but apart from frank Zappa .. where did you get that idea from ?

[oldrider]

Where is your evidence that communism doesn't work .. given that there has never been a truly Communist country and Communism is only a stage in the progression from Capitalism to Socalism to Communism to the Dictatorship of the proletariat (unfortunate choice of Mr Marx for the final stage ...)

And which particular brand of Communism do you think will not work?

In the very nature of existence everything is constantly changing, so it should be for systems that man employs to assist in maintaining our symbiotic existence with nature.

There is no "one size fits all" system that can be constantly applied and expected to work all the time!

Constant surveillance, monitoring and adjusting should be carried out for the reasons of continuity and excellence in performance of the systems for all mankind.

We can send men to the moon but we can't manage our financial and economic systems?

Our (man's) natural thirst for greed and duplicity get in the way!

We are and always will be, our own worst enemy! :yes:

[avgas]

waaaaa ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa... oh you are a rotter :spanking:... and likewise a Labourer building your house.
Likewise a doctor digging a hole

[Banditbandit]

In the very nature of existence everything is constantly changing, so it should be for systems that man employs to assist in maintaining our symbiotic existence with nature.

There is no "one size fits all" system that can be constantly applied and expected to work all the time!

Constant surveillance, monitoring and adjusting should be carried out for the reasons of continuity and excellence in performance of the systems for all mankind.

Ummm . errr .. you are describing some basic elements of the system most commonly called Communism ... at least in it's theory if not in any attempts at putting that into practice ..



We can send men to the moon but we can't manage our financial and economic systems?

A managed economic system? Shit - what a Communist idea ..


Our (man's) natural thirst for greed and duplicity get in the way!

We are and always will be, our own worst enemy! :yes:

Yes - I agree . and any system is doomed to failure because of that UNLESS the system is preapred to move and change ... as Marx's system was supposed to .. but guess what? The fucking ruling classes in a Communist system maintain the system to support themselves at the top .. just as those in a capitalist system do ..

[oldrider]

Yes - I agree . and any system is doomed to failure because of that UNLESS the system is preapred to move and change ... as Marx's system was supposed to .. but guess what? The fucking ruling classes in a Communist system maintain the system to support themselves at the top .. just as those in a capitalist system do ..

Totally agree, especially the last paragraph .. hmmm what to do about it!

If we could provide the perfect system, we would still have the problem of "the people behaviour" to deal with! :doh:

Not a good look aye! :facepalm:

[Banditbandit]

Totally agree, especially the last paragraph .. hmmm what to do about it!

If we could provide the perfect system, we would still have the problem of "the people behaviour" to deal with! :doh:

Not a good look aye! :facepalm:

Have a look at the political writings of Chantelle Mouffe and Ernesto Laclau .. they combine post-structuralism with a (a fuck the terminology)

They like Deomcracy - as do I - but reframe it as radical plural democracy rather than a Deliberative Democracy and in terms of a hegemonic practice of articulation - a post-structuralist incoroporation of Gramsci.

Shit .. I can't get away from the terminology - let me think , over caffeine and nicotine, about how to put this ...

[Clockwork]

.... as radical plural democracy rather than a Deliberative Democracy and in terms of a hegemonic practice of articulation - a post-structuralist incoroporation of Gramsci.

Bloody hell, Bud. Just how many languages do you speak?

[Coolz]

Likewise a doctor digging a hole

I have no problem with paying the doctor his dues,I put a high value on my health.Its those in jobs such as marketing,consulting,advertising and sharebroking that I have a problem with.They do nothing to enrich the value of our lives or the advancement of mankind,but surely take a bigger chunk of our paypackets than all the benifisheries.I mean,all their money comes from somewhere right? Usually out of the working mans pocket,hidden in the costs of goods and services. as for the man who dug the hole,it will still be dug,the drains still flowing,the foundations still standing long after he has gone to his paupers grave.

[Banditbandit]

Bloody hell, Bud. Just how many languages do you speak?

Yeah ... I know ...

[imdying]

Its those in jobs such as marketing, advertising that I have a problem with.Ever tried to buy a badly marketed product?

[avgas]

I have no problem with paying the doctor his dues,I put a high value on my health.Its those in jobs such as marketing,consulting,advertising and sharebroking that I have a problem with.They do nothing to enrich the value of our lives or the advancement of mankind,but surely take a bigger chunk of our paypackets than all the benifisheries.I mean,all their money comes from somewhere right? Usually out of the working mans pocket,hidden in the costs of goods and services. as for the man who dug the hole,it will still be dug,the drains still flowing,the foundations still standing long after he has gone to his paupers grave.
I used to think like this. Then I started working in a job I didn't care much for. Found that clipping the ticket is far more rewarding.
Working men as you state are a rare thing. You will look for a long time for a working man that doesn't want to clip the ticket and simply get paid.
S'pose that is the difference between work and hobby. If you lucky you get paid to do a hobby.
FYI which pays a doctor (or hospital) more, the patient, the govt or the drug company?
In some regards doctors are marketers.

[jonbuoy]

Yep it's a values system disorder. There is a particularly strong stigma against people on the dole in this country though. People are blind; they blame the dole bludgers for not contributing to the slave machine, while the powers that be continue to laugh upon us. We look up to our slave masters, the Wall St slobs who rape and pillage us from behind and instead we show disgust at fellow dustbin men who help keep our head and shoulders above the rot. They then just give us an election to keep us happy and lead us to believe we can change things, throw in a few terrorists that are jealous of our freedom and it's all hunkey dorey. Fucking tragic.

None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who believe they are free.

.

Dustbin men do a great job, its only people that choose not to work that are the problem.

[jonbuoy]

Where is your evidence that communism doesn't work .. given that there has never been a truly Communist country and Communism is only a stage in the progression from Capitalism to Socalism to Communism to the Dictatorship of the proletariat (unfortunate choice of Mr Marx for the final stage ...)

And which particular brand of Communism do you think will not work?

The brand of communism that says a brain surgeon should get paid the same as:

Someone who chooses not to work because they don´t feel like it.
An unproductive/useless worker
Hairdresser.

The brand of communism that says we are all equal and no-one should have any more than anyone else. We can´t all have a yacht, a sportscar, a sportsbike, a nice big house, a beach bach, overseas holidays. Some people have worked bloody hard to get what they have and made a lot of sacrifices. Why should someone else who has cruised through life have the same?

Two imaginary countries, call them A and B share a border.

Country A works under a communist system - all men are equal. Everyone gets paid the same, lives in a basic "peoples" house, drives a "peoples" car or rides a "peoples" bike, wears "peoples" clothes. There is no way to climb from where you are, it makes no difference to your standard of living how hard you study or work.

Country B works under a capitalist system like NZ has now, work/study hard and you will be rewarded. You can come from nothing and have the potential to be million/billionaire. In country B a hairdresser/butcher/builder/labourer can build up a small business, when they have enough business they can employ other people to work for them and be the "oppressive capitalist pig" or just a hardworking business minded worker.

The borders between the two countries are open - free travel between the two. In 50 years time what do you think is going to happen to the population?

[jonbuoy]

Who said that in a Communist society peole could not own stuff? The concept of priv ate property as theft is actually an anarchist one - yes I will concede that Anarchism is also known as "libertarian communism" ... but apart from frank Zappa .. where did you get that idea from ?

Because under a communist system everyone is the "same", we can´t all have everything we want. Some people will always work hard for more.

[Coolz]

Ever tried to buy a badly marketed product?
No,but I have bought bad products that have been excellently marketed! Thats why I dont buy the gubbermints philosophy that all our economic woes are the fault of the beneficiaries.

[mashman]

Dustbin men do a great job, its only people that choose not to work that are the problem.

only? So those who structure their affairs for the specific purpose of dodging their taxation obligations don't cause any problems?



The brand of communism that says we are all equal and no-one should have any more than anyone else. We can´t all have a yacht, a sportscar, a sportsbike, a nice big house, a beach bach, overseas holidays. Some people have worked bloody hard to get what they have and made a lot of sacrifices. Why should someone else who has cruised through life have the same?

and those who don't and have never worked, but have a yacht, a sportscar, a sportsbike, a nice big house, a beach bach, overseas holidays?

[jonbuoy]

only? So those who structure their affairs for the specific purpose of dodging their taxation obligations don't cause any problems?


and those who don't and have never worked, but have a yacht, a sportscar, a sportsbike, a nice big house, a beach bach, overseas holidays?

Are tax dodgers a drain on society? Which people that have never worked but have all this money are you talking about? Inheritance?

[mashman]

Two imaginary countries, call them A and B share a border.

Country A works under a communist system - all men are equal. Everyone gets paid the same, lives in a basic "peoples" house, drives a "peoples" car or rides a "peoples" bike, wears "peoples" clothes. There is no way to climb from where you are, it makes no difference to your standard of living how hard you study or work.

Country B works under a capitalist system like NZ has now, work/study hard and you will be rewarded. You can come from nothing and have the potential to be million/billionaire. In country B a hairdresser/butcher/builder/labourer can build up a small business, when they have enough business they can employ other people to work for them and be the "oppressive capitalist pig" or just a hardworking business minded worker.

The borders between the two countries are open - free travel between the two. In 50 years time what do you think is going to happen to the population?

Country A ticks along nicely, using what needs to be used to be as efficient as possible. Innovation is rife as there are no budget constraints and noone has a chip on their shoulder because they're pretty much all doing something.

Country B is going to have problems paying for retirement schemes and the workers will let them know about it (http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/Pensions-Row-Unions-Plan-Day-skynews-1673939646.html?x=0), employment will suffer as the economy bounces all over the show (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/8760594/UK-has-lost-2m-jobs-since-recession.html), idiotic regulations will be brought in to reign in the waste produced by their society (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/tons-food-waste-marks-end-sell-date-000519400.html) etc... but they'll still be spending $35 billion trying to get to Mars (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/biggest-ever-rocket-man-mars-160357782.html), and then wonder why they can't afford the basics :facepalm:

I'll take Country A please.

[mashman]

Are tax dodgers a drain on society? Which people that have never worked but have all this money are you talking about? Inheritance?

Yes they are... especially when the govt is in debt and people are suffering because of it. Some I know claim WFF, where they earn more than me. I don't qualify because I earn too much

Fair enough, Paris Hilton and the likes can do what they like with Daddies money. They're not productive. Therefore they are bludgers having not given anything back to society.

[jonbuoy]

Yes they are... especially when the govt is in debt and people are suffering because of it. Some I know claim WFF, where they earn more than me. I don't qualify because I earn too much

Fair enough, Paris Hilton and the likes can do what they like with Daddies money. They're not productive. Therefore they are bludgers having not given anything back to society.

Country A will have been brain drained, each to their own - I would leave country A as soon as possible.

The governments here are in debt because they spent too much, the banks are screwed because they lent money to people who can´t pay it back. Poor economics, the banks and governments should have known better (as should the individuals that took on debts and mortgages they could never pay back). I don´t begrudge Paris Hilton the money, her grandfather worked hard for it. Lottery winners didn´t work for it - I don´t begrudge them either. People defrauding the benefit system, is just that - fraud.

People in the 38% bracket or 50% resent seeing nearly half their money disappear into a benefit system that allows people to be long term unemployed not because they can´t work but because they can´t be bothered to work. If they then loose their job find out that even though they have paid for more into the benefit system they don´t get any more back in return.

[puddytat]

I've noticed that quite alot of us are singing more or less the same song,but just not quite in tune:yes:(or KEY:tugger:)
And I think we all agree that that the systen needs to be more adaptable to our ever changing society,& not stuck in some rut that was fine for a decade or two ago.
Its a bit like the religious that stick to dogmas written 2 thousand years ago...:facepalm:Twas somewhat different then eh.
I gotta go & find some other thread so I can spread it around abit:yes:

[puddytat]

Country A will have been brain drained, each to their own - I would leave country A as soon as possible.

The governments here are in debt because they spent too much, the banks are screwed because they lent money to people who can´t pay it back. Poor economics, the banks and governments should have known better (as should the individuals that took on debts and mortgages they could never pay back). .

Dude,you need to get out more....China's so fucking full of clever buggers that can hack any system they want:yes:Not to many people trying to escape is there.
As for the next paragraph, is it not the systems faults you are describing? And the very few long term beneficaries are a direct consequence of its selfish policies?
True wealth is in Goods & Services....people & what they produce.Capitalism is the leeches attatched to them.

[jonbuoy]

Dude,you need to get out more....China's so fucking full of clever buggers that can hack any system they want:yes:Not to many people trying to escape is there.
As for the next paragraph, is it not the systems faults you are describing? And the very few long term beneficaries are a direct consequence of its selfish policies?
True wealth is in Goods & Services....people & what they produce.Capitalism is the leeches attatched to them.

China is not a full on communist equality system though is it? There is a huge gap between rich and poor. Its not exactly the capitalist system that's at fault - its a binge on cheap credit.

[mashman]

Country A will have been brain drained, each to their own - I would leave country A as soon as possible.


Why will it have been brain drained?



The governments here are in debt because they spent too much, the banks are screwed because they lent money to people who can´t pay it back. Poor economics, the banks and governments should have known better (as should the individuals that took on debts and mortgages they could never pay back). I don´t begrudge Paris Hilton the money, her grandfather worked hard for it. Lottery winners didn´t work for it - I don´t begrudge them either. People defrauding the benefit system, is just that - fraud.

Agreed.



People in the 38% bracket or 50% resent seeing nearly half their money disappear into a benefit system that allows people to be long term unemployed not because they can´t work but because they can´t be bothered to work. If they then loose their job find out that even though they have paid for more into the benefit system they don´t get any more back in return.

I don't resent it. There aren't enough jobs. Not getting back what you've put in is par for the course. I don't want cycleways (will never use them either :)), but I end up paying for them, I don't see why I should pay for grants for pink batts that I'm not going to use, I don't see why I should pay $35 million for an Irrigation Acceleration Fund that I won't qualify for, I don't believe that Ministers are worth their salaries but I ahve to pay for their perks for life, I don't see why I should shell out $40 million on the Gov-Gens mansion when I'm not going to live there, I don't want to fund cyclists injuries because they don't pay an extra levy and on and on and on... the unemployed (by choice or not) are small bikkies in comparison and are a requirement of a healthy economy.

[jonbuoy]

Why will it have been brain drained?



Agreed.



I don't resent it. There aren't enough jobs. Not getting back what you've put in is par for the course. I don't want cycleways (will never use them either :)), but I end up paying for them, I don't see why I should pay for grants for pink batts that I'm not going to use, I don't see why I should pay $35 million for an Irrigation Acceleration Fund that I won't qualify for, I don't believe that Ministers are worth their salaries but I ahve to pay for their perks for life, I don't see why I should shell out $40 million on the Gov-Gens mansion when I'm not going to live there, I don't want to fund cyclists injuries because they don't pay an extra levy and on and on and on... the unemployed (by choice or not) are small bikkies in comparison and are a requirement of a healthy economy.

Why would a top scientist/lawyer work for peanuts when he could earn far more money overseas. Notice the same thing happening in NZ?

[mashman]

Why would a top scientist/lawyer work for peanuts when he could earn far more money overseas. Notice the same thing happening in NZ?

Why would a top scientists be hamstrung by budget and an under educated workforce because society couldn't afford to train people properly?

[puddytat]

China is not a full on communist equality system though is it? There is a huge gap between rich and poor. Its not exactly the capitalist system that's at fault - its a binge on cheap credit.

Nah , I beg to differ, proportionaly per capita the West has more uber rich than China.
Is it not the Capitalist that gleefully hand out the capital to the stupid & greedy?They're in a win/win situation.They get interest on the loans & ultimately title if they default.
And if they collapse who bails them out....you & me:facepalm:
Wheres our shares then?:Oi:
Whereas using their own philospy they should be left to collapse, just like the banks would do to you & me.
I do agree that China is far from perfect & it is not the model I will impose....

[puddytat]

Why would a top scientist/lawyer work for peanuts when he could earn far more money overseas. Notice the same thing happening in NZ?

Why are we funding our top AgResearch scientists to the tune of 8mill a year to fuck around with goats while the company who is in cahoots with them is the largest BioEngineering company in the world who,get all patents & intellectual property rights to any discoveries our scientist make? FFS why are WE paying for that?:angry:
Fuckthem!
Even the scientists involved with that dont like that yet our Govt spends more money on R&D for these foreigners than it does on alot of way more useful training programmes.:sick:

[Winston001]

Why are we funding our top AgResearch scientists to the tune of 8mill a year to fuck around with goats while the company who is in cahoots with them is the largest BioEngineering company in the world who,get all patents & intellectual property rights to any discoveries our scientist make? FFS why are WE paying for that?:angry:

Now Puddytat, that's a bit naughty of you. Most of the above is simply untrue.

The largest bio-engineering company is nothing of the sort. It is GTC Biotherapeutics which began in 1993 - yes, 1993 - has never made a profit. Here's a clip:

“We also have a development agreement in place with AgResearch in New Zealand for co-funding further development of selected follow-on biologics, particularly where European patents expire prior to U.S. patents…

…We have operated at a net loss since our inception in 1993, and we used $20.3 million of net cash in our operating cash flows during the first nine months of 2009. Our recurring losses from operations and our limited funds raise substantial doubt about our ability to continue as a going concern. We are entirely dependent upon funding from equity financings, partnering programs and proceeds from short and long-term debt to finance our operations until we achieve commercial success in selling and licensing our products and positive cash flow from
operations.”

The deal with AgResearch is that GTC will hold the US patent if...if..the work is successful. You can be sure AgResearch will hold patent rights as well, in fact NZ scientists lead the world on ruminant genetics. A mate of mine is a world authority on sheep genes but like most blokes, never skites or explains why he's invited to address conferences.

Agricultural science is about the only edge NZ has in the new technological world and we have to partner with other universities and businesses to get the research money.

[puddytat]

Now Puddytat, that's a bit naughty of you. Most of the above is simply untrue.

The largest bio-engineering company is nothing of the sort. It is GTC Biotherapeutics which began in 1993 - yes, 1993 - has never made a profit. Here's a clip:

“We also have a development agreement in place with AgResearch in New Zealand for co-funding further development of selected follow-on biologics, particularly where European patents expire prior to U.S. patents…

…We have operated at a net loss since our inception in 1993, and we used $20.3 million of net cash in our operating cash flows during the first nine months of 2009. Our recurring losses from operations and our limited funds raise substantial doubt about our ability to continue as a going concern. We are entirely dependent upon funding from equity financings, partnering programs and proceeds from short and long-term debt to finance our operations until we achieve commercial success in selling and licensing our products and positive cash flow from
operations.”

The deal with AgResearch is that GTC will hold the US patent if...if..the work is successful. You can be sure AgResearch will hold patent rights as well, in fact NZ scientists lead the world on ruminant genetics. A mate of mine is a world authority on sheep genes but like most blokes, never skites or explains why he's invited to address conferences.

Agricultural science is about the only edge NZ has in the new technological world and we have to partner with other universities and businesses to get the research money.

Your right, they're not the largest & I appreciate you enlightening me,but I quote Straight Furrows' Sandra Finneys front page article....(man I wish I could cut & paste)
"The company, a world leader in milk threpeautic products from GM animals,holds the US patents thru to 2021for any therapeautic proteins produced in transgenic animals & receives all the commercial gains from AgResearch's programme while the researchers only gain knowledge.
Dr Warren McNabb, research director for AgResearch was unsure wether GTC contributed any IP but it had brought a commercial focus to the GE programme regarding goats milk.
Straight Furrow reminded him that all the commercial benefits went to the private company.
Asked if the $8 million representd fair value, considering AgResearch scientists only gained knowledge from the trials, Dr McNabb said,"I cant comment on why FRST (Foundation for Research & Science & Technology) made the investment, it might have been on the basis of a percieved need for us to be involved in this kind of development"
He was reminded that when the researchers left their positions that much of the knowledge would go with them.
Within the GM debate framework, Dr McNabb wondered if AgResearch would still want to be involved in medical therepeautics in the future."
So...Hey I accept what you saying, but hey this is what I read in Straight Furrow & they're pretty "straight "if you catch my drift. Sandra Finney is probably their more centerist if( thats the right word) contributer , from a newspaper that has large articles from Dennis T Avery a right wing lobbyist for the GE & Chemical Industry of the US &
whose letters to the Editor consist almost completly of Climate Change deniers
& Farmers who believe that farming has no impact.:facepalm:
Im a skeptic,mainly because we will spend 8 mill on GE Research for a private foreign company, yet we spend less on studies on sustainability or research on low input farming.When playing God with GE is motivated by monetary gain then Im dead against it.

[imdying]

No,but I have bought bad products that have been excellently marketed!Ahahahahah tru dat!

[Banditbandit]

Why are we funding our top AgResearch scientists to the tune of 8mill a year to fuck around with goats

:facepalm: Did you know that more goat meat is eaten in the world than sheep meat?

Why the fuck are we continuing to produce sheep meat? There would appear to be a much bigger market in goat meat ... why don't we go for a share of that ? It would seem to be an obvious market strategy would it not? Grow what people want to eat (goats) instead of growing what we want (sheep) then trying to find a market for it. Sure there once was a market for lamb and hogget in the UK .. that went when the UK joined the Common Market ... But what did we do? Continue to grow sheep .. instead of looking at what the market really wanted ...

It's not rocket science ... but no-one in this country seems to have noticed ...

[Banditbandit]

You did not answer my question ... but hei aha ... the answer is obvious


The brand of communism that says a brain surgeon should get paid the same as:


Someone who chooses not to work because they don´t feel like it.
An unproductive/useless worker

No Communist system I know of says that. That's getting sucked into the propoganda system of the capitalist machine ... (It might apply to good old Godzone tho' ... )


Hairdresser.

Yes. What's the problem? If people work hard should they not get rewerded for their hard work? Does it matter what the work is? .. I don't think so - reward people for hard work ..


The brand of communism that says we are all equal and no-one should have any more than anyone else.

How can you disagree that we are all equal? Not the same but equal ... "equality" does not mean "same" ... what you seem to mean is simply a matter of genetic inheritance - luck - whatever .... Who says under Communism people should not have more than anyone else ? It's certainly not in the writings of Marx, Lenin, Trotsky ...



We can´t all have a yacht, a sportscar, a sportsbike, a nice big house, a beach bach, overseas holidays. Some people have worked bloody hard to get what they have and made a lot of sacrifices. Why should someone else who has cruised through life have the same?

Again .. not any version of Communism I know .. your ideas about Communism appear to come from the anti-Communist propoganda of the Capitalists - not from any direct knowledge of the system ... Which writers on Communism have you read?


Two imaginary countries, call them A and B share a border.

Country A works under a communist system - all men are equal. Everyone gets paid the same, lives in a basic "peoples" house, drives a "peoples" car or rides a "peoples" bike, wears "peoples" clothes. There is no way to climb from where you are, it makes no difference to your standard of living how hard you study or work.

Country B works under a capitalist system like NZ has now, work/study hard and you will be rewarded. You can come from nothing and have the potential to be million/billionaire. In country B a hairdresser/butcher/builder/labourer can build up a small business, when they have enough business they can employ other people to work for them and be the "oppressive capitalist pig" or just a hardworking business minded worker.

The borders between the two countries are open - free travel between the two. In 50 years time what do you think is going to happen to the population?


Because under a communist system everyone is the "same", we can´t all have everything we want. Some people will always work hard for more.

Country A is not a Communist country

Country B (GodZone) is much closer to the Socialist/Communist approach than you are probably prepared to accept - on the world stage New Zealand is a very very Socialist country ...


Are tax dodgers a drain on society? Which people that have never worked but have all this money are you talking about? Inheritance?

Hell yes Tax Dodgers are a drain on society - sponging off the rest of us. They have all the benefits of living in our society - health, education, police, roads, etc etc .. without paying for it.

Tax dodgers cost the rest of us ordinary PAYE taxpayers - because the money lost because tax dodgers do not pay anything is made up by US! If ALL tax was collected or individual tax would be lower ....

Winston Peters' Wine Box scandal uncovered something like $600million in tax dodging .... that amount of money would have funded 20 medium size Polytechs (and people are screaming for student places which have been limited because the Government doesn't have enough money) - or several hospitals (we need them) - or many more student places, apprenticeships, operations in hospitals ... things we need but can't afford ..

Now if that money was not spent on those things, but the system remained where it is ... we would all be paying lower PAYE

How much is the total tax loss to this country because the big companies and rich fuckers are avoiding tax? Some people say they pay Zero tax ... well shit .. that is at the cost of us all ...

I could go on - tax dodgers - I hate the fuckers ...

[avgas]

What a great debate. Pointless, but great.

By the sounds of things, neither side has any idea how any of the sides actually works.

Communist and Capitalist are just political terms that make the politics graduates sound like they have a grasp on the world. Where the fact of the matter is they know shit.
Its people that make places different. Not political stuctures.

You all need to get out a bit more and experience these differences personally. It might blow your mind to find out how things work.
All this academic "guess-work" is simply showing how little you know about how the world works. Go work in China or US. Then tell me how oppressed people are due to the govt structure.

I mean think about it - we get hammered to hell over speeding in NZ. But does that mean that everyone on the road suddenly does under the speed limit? Or does the decrease in speed in NZ due to other factors like decisions individual people are making.

Heh political gossip - What is this 1976?
Grow up and experience life fools.

[imdying]

Money money money... some of the most enriching moments of my like have come from people who contribute nothing to the tax take of this country.

I'm glad that not everybody follows the fucked up value systems of some posters.

[BoristheBiter]

Hell yes Tax Dodgers are a drain on society - sponging off the rest of us. They have all the benefits of living in our society - health, education, police, roads, etc etc .. without paying for it.

Tax dodgers cost the rest of us ordinary PAYE taxpayers - because the money lost because tax dodgers do not pay anything is made up by US! If ALL tax was collected or individual tax would be lower ....

Winston Peters' Wine Box scandal uncovered something like $600million in tax dodging .... that amount of money would have funded 20 medium size Polytechs (and people are screaming for student places which have been limited because the Government doesn't have enough money) - or several hospitals (we need them) - or many more student places, apprenticeships, operations in hospitals ... things we need but can't afford ..

Now if that money was not spent on those things, but the system remained where it is ... we would all be paying lower PAYE

How much is the total tax loss to this country because the big companies and rich fuckers are avoiding tax? Some people say they pay Zero tax ... well shit .. that is at the cost of us all ...

I could go on - tax dodgers - I hate the fuckers ...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
You say that tax dodgers (working but not paying tax) are bludgers but them on the dole (not working but taking money) aren't.

I thought you had a fucked up out look but that takes the cake.

[puddytat]

:facepalm: Did you know that more goat meat is eaten in the world than sheep meat?

Why the fuck are we continuing to produce sheep meat? There would appear to be a much bigger market in goat meat ... why don't we go for a share of that ? It would seem to be an obvious market strategy would it not? Grow what people want to eat (goats) instead of growing what we want (sheep) then trying to find a market for it. Sure there once was a market for lamb and hogget in the UK .. that went when the UK joined the Common Market ... But what did we do? Continue to grow sheep .. instead of looking at what the market really wanted ...

It's not rocket science ... but no-one in this country seems to have noticed ...

Ummm being a farmer I did know that more people eat Goats. Did you know you can run an extra 10% of your existing stock numbers as goats, because they eat species that sheep & bovines dont.
Thats the upside.
Down side here is the cost of fencing to keep them contained & that a 20something kg goat is worth 26 bucks.But they're also always worth that so are not prone to the market fluctuations of sheep & bovine.That is why we like many look at goats as an option,but for us the cost outweighs the benefit. If you were to have milking herd of goats then the numbers are better becuse of Cheese etc & you can sell the offspring....but at $100.000 plus to set up a food grade milking shed & Cheesery...na I dont do debt.

[imdying]

food grade milking shed & CheeseryI know it's probably obvious to a farmer, but what other grades are there?

[avgas]

I know it's probably obvious to a farmer, but what other grades are there?
KB level cheesery

[Oscar]

KB level cheesery

Foreskin cheese?

[puddytat]

Sorry if I came across as condescending, twas not my intention...
Well here our grade of milking bail for the house cow is by the powers to be definition most likely "Dodgey''grade as its part of the car shed.Likewise our simple Cheesey cheese making (tm)equipment made out of stainless fire flue & whatever else was lying around at the time.
Fine for us.
The point I was sort of trying to make that is that only recently has the laws been changed to allow people to sell raw milk products(?) whereas for years we have been importing raw milk(unpasteurised) cheeses from Europe:facepalm::whocares:But usually made by Buxom wenches in bodices & skirts who wash only on the sabbath in a mountain stream & who bed down with the cows in the barn...:yes::drool::buggerd:

In all honesty imdying,I dont have a clue what other grades there are.

[imdying]

Sorry if I came across as condescending, twas not my intention...Nah mate, was a serious question... my knowledge of dairy farming is zip.

[puddytat]

See above imdying, I was adding juicey bits to the post when you posted.

[Winston001]

Ummm being a farmer I did know that more people eat Goats. Did you know you can run an extra 10% of your existing stock numbers as goats, because they eat species that sheep & bovines dont.


Well said. In fact running a combination of goats, deer, and beef cattle among nut trees (or similar) is a very efficient use of pasture. Except it aint easy or quick to set up. And the trees have to be protected.

You make a good point about goats. Intelligent, good foragers, care for their kids, tough.

The downside...all of the above. Fences are fun - a challenge. They are interesting animals, just like beef cattle, with personalities and ideas. I'd rather farm cattle though which at least you can control - goats are far too clever.



And now for something completely different: La mouton anglo-français

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Vkw2DdoskPY" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

[Ocean1]

Well said. In fact running a combination of goats, deer, and beef cattle among nut trees (or similar) is a very efficient use of pasture.

You sure?

246901

[Winston001]

Good man! That pic proves my point exactly! :woohoo:

[puddytat]

See I was thinking we were getting off topic:yes: then the thought occured to me that the biggest benefit I get, is being able to grow a large percentage of the food I eat...all perfectly legal, not taxable,& no one telling me how I should do it,when I should do it & where I must do it & then charging me for the requisite form from the Council rubber stamp bearer & its accompaining invoice. YET.

Which also brings up another Wank 'o' the Week award which the Govt wins yet again with its plans to tax or control the WOOFER system & Bartering between people...the reasoning is that if you are establishing a value of say 100 chickens in exchange for a cow, then thou shalt be Taxed.:facepalm:
Personally I feel its an infringement of my basic human rights which is up there with me being no longer able to build my own dwelling.
Where will it end.......

[Winston001]

See I was thinking we were getting off topic:yes: then the thought occured to me that the biggest benefit I get, is being able to grow a large percentage of the food I eat...all perfectly legal, not taxable...


Yeeaahhh...hate to tell you this but in farm accounts you are supposed to return the killers - they represent income at standard value ie. taxable. Still, there always seem to be unexplained tragic stock losses...:facepalm:

No idea how the geese and hens are treated. We used to suffer a lost cattle beast every six months. :blink: Maybe I should fatten up the cat..

[jonbuoy]

You did not answer my question ... but hei aha ... the answer is obvious



No Communist system I know of says that. That's getting sucked into the propoganda system of the capitalist machine ... (It might apply to good old Godzone tho' ... )



Yes. What's the problem? If people work hard should they not get rewerded for their hard work? Does it matter what the work is? .. I don't think so - reward people for hard work ..



How can you disagree that we are all equal? Not the same but equal ... "equality" does not mean "same" ... what you seem to mean is simply a matter of genetic inheritance - luck - whatever .... Who says under Communism people should not have more than anyone else ? It's certainly not in the writings of Marx, Lenin, Trotsky ...




Again .. not any version of Communism I know .. your ideas about Communism appear to come from the anti-Communist propoganda of the Capitalists - not from any direct knowledge of the system ... Which writers on Communism have you read?





Country A is not a Communist country

Country B (GodZone) is much closer to the Socialist/Communist approach than you are probably prepared to accept - on the world stage New Zealand is a very very Socialist country ...



Hell yes Tax Dodgers are a drain on society - sponging off the rest of us. They have all the benefits of living in our society - health, education, police, roads, etc etc .. without paying for it.

Tax dodgers cost the rest of us ordinary PAYE taxpayers - because the money lost because tax dodgers do not pay anything is made up by US! If ALL tax was collected or individual tax would be lower ....

Winston Peters' Wine Box scandal uncovered something like $600million in tax dodging .... that amount of money would have funded 20 medium size Polytechs (and people are screaming for student places which have been limited because the Government doesn't have enough money) - or several hospitals (we need them) - or many more student places, apprenticeships, operations in hospitals ... things we need but can't afford ..

Now if that money was not spent on those things, but the system remained where it is ... we would all be paying lower PAYE

How much is the total tax loss to this country because the big companies and rich fuckers are avoiding tax? Some people say they pay Zero tax ... well shit .. that is at the cost of us all ...

I could go on - tax dodgers - I hate the fuckers ...

I don´t hate tax dogers or dole bludgers i just think they should pay their way, I could be classed as a tax dodger - I work on a ship and am out of my country of residence for more than 300 days a year so as a seafarer I legally don´t pay tax in the UK. I´m also not entitled to any government pension or free health care (I pay for private health care, and have to look after myself if I loose my job and in my old age) and a lot of other benefits I would be entitled to if I hadn´t worked a day in my life.

Regarding communism up until a few posts ago you were arguing that all workers were entitled to the same wage regardless of what job they were doing, now you say its not part of a communist system?

[Zedder]

See I was thinking we were getting off topic:yes: then the thought occured to me that the biggest benefit I get, is being able to grow a large percentage of the food I eat...all perfectly legal, not taxable,& no one telling me how I should do it,when I should do it & where I must do it & then charging me for the requisite form from the Council rubber stamp bearer & its accompaining invoice. YET.

Which also brings up another Wank 'o' the Week award which the Govt wins yet again with its plans to tax or control the WOOFER system & Bartering between people...the reasoning is that if you are establishing a value of say 100 chickens in exchange for a cow, then thou shalt be Taxed.:facepalm:
Personally I feel its an infringement of my basic human rights which is up there with me being no longer able to build my own dwelling.
Where will it end.......

It's always good to hear about people doing what you're doing. My wife and I have been growning our own food a lot more lately. We live on the outskirts of town and I've always lived in places with a bit of extra land. That's how I got into motorbikes actually, I did years of offroading before I even got on a road bike.

Cheers

[fuknKIWI]

Has anybody mentioned friends with benefits?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/fuknKIWI/2358.gif

[avgas]

Has anybody mentioned friends with benefits?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/fuknKIWI/2358.gif
Many here don't have friends.
They taste like chicken.

[Dodgy_Matt]

John Key has announced he intends to make it more difficult to claim benefits.
From next week the forms will only be printed in English.
Hahahahahahaaaa

[mashman]

Surely not. I mean, these guys could be on benefits sitting at home playing games all day and yet... "Online gamers have achieved a feat beyond the realm of Second Life or Dungeons and Dragons: they have deciphered the structure of an enzyme of an AIDS-like virus that had thwarted scientists for a decade." (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/10284759/online-gamers-crack-aids-enzyme-puzzle/#)

I cannot be :shifty:, I mean, they have no training, they can't possibly be able to do such a thing :innocent:

[jonbuoy]

Surely not. I mean, these guys could be on benefits sitting at home playing games all day and yet... "Online gamers have achieved a feat beyond the realm of Second Life or Dungeons and Dragons: they have deciphered the structure of an enzyme of an AIDS-like virus that had thwarted scientists for a decade." (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/10284759/online-gamers-crack-aids-enzyme-puzzle/#)

I cannot be :shifty:, I mean, they have no training, they can't possibly be able to do such a thing :innocent:

Awesome now they are fully qualified DNA sequencers (as long as some scientists somewhere turn it into an online game). Why do you think the majority of online gamers are unemployed on benefits?

[avgas]

Awesome now they are fully qualified DNA sequencers (as long as some scientists somewhere turn it into an online game). Why do you think the majority of online gamers are unemployed on benefits?
Because DNA sequencing doesn't generate money?

[jonbuoy]

Because DNA sequencing doesn't generate money?

Its a billion dollar industry.

[mashman]

Awesome now they are fully qualified DNA sequencers (as long as some scientists somewhere turn it into an online game). Why do you think the majority of online gamers are unemployed on benefits?

:rofl: I said COULD be and I highly doubt the majority are unemployed. For me it says alot about the "science" industry (both good and bad, they're one-eyed, yet they're starting to look for assistance... excellent idea to turn it into a game) as well as the capability of non-specialists. If they are on a benefit, it kinda bucks the idea that they're stupid as argued by so many. But hey, why look any further when the sterotype tells you all you need to know about them :facepalm:

[avgas]

Its a billion dollar industry.
So is toilet cleaning.

[avgas]

:rofl: I said COULD be and I highly doubt the majority are unemployed. For me it says alot about the "science" industry (both good and bad, they're one-eyed, yet they're starting to look for assistance... excellent idea to turn it into a game) as well as the capability of non-specialists. If they are on a benefit, it kinda bucks the idea that they're stupid as argued by so many. But hey, why look any further when the sterotype tells you all you need to know about them :facepalm:
Its something NASA and others have been doing for years. BOINC is a good example of this.
Fact of the matter is many people make good money at 60% effort. I am one of them, I imagine many scientists are too.

Stuff has to motivate us to give the extra 40-50%. Unemployed can be motivated to do 100-120% if they see a reward. Unfortunately many don't see that they can get paid more by simply putting a measly 60% into a job.

[racefactory]

Its something NASA and others have been doing for years. BOINC is a good example of this.
Fact of the matter is many people make good money at 60% effort. I am one of them, I imagine many scientists are too.



What do you call good money then?

[avgas]

What do you call good money then?
Good enough to give 60% effort ;)

[mashman]

Its something NASA and others have been doing for years. BOINC is a good example of this.
Fact of the matter is many people make good money at 60% effort. I am one of them, I imagine many scientists are too.

Stuff has to motivate us to give the extra 40-50%. Unemployed can be motivated to do 100-120% if they see a reward. Unfortunately many don't see that they can get paid more by simply putting a measly 60% into a job.

BOINC... ooooooook, that's something I've been doing for years too :woohoo:... +1 for NASA

I guess it's a half way house between subject interest and reward, primarily the latter because people have hobbies that cost, but don't return financial reward? to that end, the right carrot could provide remarkable results for those who don't know what to do and are on benefit. If it's money all the way, then it ain't gonna matter what the job is, it'll be to pay the bills and then yer 60% falls quite quickly to about 20% I would have thought.

[avgas]

If it's money all the way, then it ain't gonna matter what the job is, it'll be to pay the bills and then yer 60% falls quite quickly to about 20% I would have thought.
Well both you and I are on KB......so I guess that answers that question.

[mashman]

Well both you and I are on KB......so I guess that answers that question.

heh... that's called multi-tasking :innocent:

[jonbuoy]

:rofl: I said COULD be and I highly doubt the majority are unemployed. For me it says alot about the "science" industry (both good and bad, they're one-eyed, yet they're starting to look for assistance... excellent idea to turn it into a game) as well as the capability of non-specialists. If they are on a benefit, it kinda bucks the idea that they're stupid as argued by so many. But hey, why look any further when the sterotype tells you all you need to know about them :facepalm:

:blink: I really can´t make sense of your posts sometimes.

[jonbuoy]

So is toilet cleaning.

You don´t think cleaning companies make money or you don´t think DNA sequencing makes money?

[mashman]

:blink: I really can´t make sense of your posts sometimes.

dats fair enough :yes:... More than happy to explain what I posted, but it'll likely still not make sense :)

[Ocean1]

If they are on a benefit, it kinda bucks the idea that they're stupid as argued by so many.

Nobody seriously suggested dole bludgers were stupid.

Just fucking lazy.

[mashman]

Nobody seriously suggested dole bludgers were stupid.

Just fucking lazy.

I wouldn't call them lazy either. Not saying that there aren't those who are lazy, but I'd argue that's because there's nothing that they want to do... which is a far cry from being lazy... and I would imagine that most dolies don't just sit on their arses all day looking at the goggle box. Items don't just walk out of shops by themselves ya know :laugh:... I'd call them time efficient.

[jonbuoy]

I wouldn't call them lazy either. Not saying that there aren't those who are lazy, but I'd argue that's because there's nothing that they want to do... which is a far cry from being lazy... and I would imagine that most dolies don't just sit on their arses all day looking at the goggle box. Items don't just walk out of shops by themselves ya know :laugh:... I'd call them time efficient.

Who actually wakes up every morning and wants to go to work rather than going for a ride? I can think of a thousand things I´d like to do more than go to work. Its not about wanting to something its about having to (unless your happy to sit on your arse sponging off everyone else).

[mashman]

Who actually wakes up every morning and wants to go to work rather than going for a ride? I can think of a thousand things I´d like to do more than go to work. Its not about wanting to something its about having to (unless your happy to sit on your arse sponging off everyone else).

Fair enough.

[HTFU]

This is a can of worms, and i want to try and avoid a left vs right slanging match so i'd appreciate thought before posting.

Buggered if I know what the answer is, but there has to be one.

Friends with Benefits.

[Toaster]

This is rubbish.

If people don't want to work, why do you think that you should be able to make them? People are not your fucking slaves.

The majority of society that believes working is king, that giving a third or more of your life to make other people rich, is the way to go. Good on them. However there is no reason why everybody should have to follow that path.

This is a fact. We already know this to be true. We currently do not expect prisoners, pensioners, or children to work. We know that the world doesn't collapse if we don't all do what is the current norm as we've had the majority of humanities life span with prisoners, pensioners, and children, working.

You can either pay a benefit to those people who do not want to follow the path of all the other sheeple, or you can suffer the result of giving them no other option than to live in the one narrow minded society we currently have without money.

Really, as I've said many times before, the problem is one of over population. We don't have 200,000 unemployed in this country, we have about 2,000,000 more people than we need.

The other problem we have is that we insist on trying to bring up everybody to the same level. Well I've got news for you sunshine, ALL PEOPLE ARE NOT EQUAL. That whole notion is fucking ridiculous. Problem is, people are too blind to see that not equal does not mean better or worse, IT JUST MEANS THAT THEY ARE NOT EQUAL. Big fucking deal. You can't have a relentless greedy society like we have without people at the top, and people at the bottom. Simple as that.


You remind me why we hate employing idiots.

[Toaster]

I have a niece who did just that, set up a lifestyle around the benefit system, knocked out two sprogs, excluded the fathers and is also a lifetime student of fuck all!

Gets all the perks and even has "student" trips overseas! (where one of the fathers of her sprog comes from!)

These spongers certainly know how to work the systems!

Even worse, the system guardians are part of maintaining the bloody deal! :facepalm:

I think it is fair to say the average kiwi taxpayer is SICK of bailing out everyone else.

[Toaster]

Well said that man, now you do realize you'll be ostracized for talking sense ?

I have no problem with that mate. The world is a melting pot of the intelligent, reasonable and the stupid.

Everyone is welcome to an opinion. I for one can't stand those that take from others and those that leech upon society.

[imdying]

Sitting around all day enjoying life whilst every other mug goes off to work... if there's one thing you can't call them, it's stupid.

[puddytat]

Well the Greens policy announcement to do with this topic sounds interesting.....
100,000 jobs in the enviroment & in rebuilding Christchurch:yes:www.greens.org.nz

[Zedder]

The simple answer to the benefits problem is of course very high employment.

Unfortunately, until things like governments having the wrong people in them plus the financial sector being able to play the paper money game and plunge the world into crisis (while taking huge bonuses) etc it's going to be tough to solve.

[mashman]

The simple answer to the benefits problem is of course very high employment.

Unfortunately, until things like governments having the wrong people in them plus the financial sector being able to play the paper money game and plunge the world into crisis (while taking huge bonuses) etc it's going to be tough to solve.

I'd go for very high unemployment, with some form of rotation system as an incentive... saaaaaaaay, 2 years on 2 years off :Punk:

[Zedder]

I'd go for very high unemployment, with some form of rotation system as an incentive... saaaaaaaay, 2 years on 2 years off :Punk:

Only if there was a medical plan with it though.

[FJRider]

Did THIS benificary save the tax-payers $400,000 ... or do what EVERY child shound be required to do for a parent ... ??? :corn::corn::corn:

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/mp/10320788/beneficiary-saves-the-tax-payer-400-000/

[mashman]

Did THIS benificary save the tax-payers $400,000 ... or do what EVERY child shound be required to do for a parent ... ??? :shutup: :blink: :blink:

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/mp/10320788/beneficiary-saves-the-tax-payer-400-000/

Both (no need for extra chars this time)

:killingme, the popcorns betterererer :innocent:...

[Zedder]

Both (no need for extra chars this time)

:killingme, the popcorns betterererer :innocent:...

But she was still on a benefit.

[FJRider]

But she was still on a benefit.

So was STILL getting PAID ... ???

[mashman]

But she was still on a benefit.

cheaper than paying for someone else to look after her according to the article, with the beneficiary potentially still being doled... win win?

[Zedder]

cheaper than paying for someone else to look after her according to the article, with the beneficiary potentially still being doled... win win?

I think what FJ Rider was asking is does it mean it's an altruistic act (which a family member would be expected to do) or not.

If she's being paid a benefit it isn't as altruistic as doing it just for family without government assistance. Sure, she may have saved the tax payer $400k but it's not totally free for the taxpayer.

[Zedder]

Well the Greens policy announcement to do with this topic sounds interesting.....
100,000 jobs in the enviroment & in rebuilding Christchurch:yes:www.greens.org.nz

Cool, go the Greens.

[mashman]

I think what FJ Rider was asking is does it mean it's an altruistic act (which a family member would be expected to do) or not.

If she's being paid a benefit it isn't as altruistic as doing it just for family without government assistance. Sure, she may have saved the tax payer $400k but it's not totally free for the taxpayer.

That's what I understood also... Does it make it any less altruistic because she's also drawing a benefit? I don't think so... after all she still needs money to pay for food, bills, fuel etc... same as anyone else (more so because she's an unofficial carer), and some won't have a parent to look after as the state will take care of that for them. The fact that she's saved the country money too is a bonus. In fact they should give her 200k for saving 400k.

Why does she have to be one or the other?

[puddytat]

Why does she have to be one or the other?

Its a Kiwi thing Bro,people struggle with anything other than a Black or White answer.....unless its the 2 main political parties with their fuck all difference policies:yes:

[Zedder]

That's what I understood also... Does it make it any less altruistic because she's also drawing a benefit? I don't think so... after all she still needs money to pay for food, bills, fuel etc... same as anyone else (more so because she's an unofficial carer), and some won't have a parent to look after as the state will take care of that for them. The fact that she's saved the country money too is a bonus. In fact they should give her 200k for saving 400k.

Why does she have to be one or the other?

I don't think she does but we haven't heard from FJ rider who asked the question in the first place.

[mashman]

Its a Kiwi thing Bro,people struggle with anything other than a Black or White answer.....unless its the 2 main political parties with their fuck all difference policies


:laugh: you're right, but it ain't just a Kiwi thing... met plenty of black and white black and whiters in the UK... ultimate trust in what they know because they have heard it or read it etc... from a "reputable" source... so the accepted answer to the situation has already been defined by greater minds and therefore no shades of grey can exist and their opinion can be safely acknowledged as the truth... they have never had to figure it out for themselves, or have never taken the time out to do so... Shame the political parties feel the need to perpetuate the divide. Perhaps we should become German instead of Chinese :hug:


I don't think she does but we haven't heard from FJ rider who asked the question in the first place.

:jerry: :shutup:



So was STILL getting PAID ... ???

If she was it was well below minimum wage. Isn't there a law against that :shifty:

[FJRider]

If she was it was well below minimum wage. Isn't there a law against that :shifty:

I understand that WINZ have a policy against family members being paid (by WINZ) carers, for another family member ...

[mashman]

I understand that WINZ have a policy against family members being paid (by WINZ) carers, for another family member ...

Fair point... kinda damned if they do and damned if they don't eh.

[Zedder]

At least she's not like the group of people in South Auckland who scammed the system for $2 million.

[puddytat]

I understand that WINZ have a policy against family members being paid (by WINZ) carers, for another family member ...

If I remember correctly, the Greens are planning to change that.....:yes:

[oOGixxerOo]

The DPB is quite good money for a solo parent. They get like $480 a week, everything subsidised (including daycare). This is the most funniest part, they can send their child to day car five times a week from 7.30 - 17.30 and then go home and do nothing. WINZ say they have requirements on the parents, that they have to do some kind of activitity that show they are working towards getting back to work but seldomly the WINZ officer will follow this up.

A person who's on minimum wage get like 900 dollars a fortnight with no subsidies. So I understand solo parents they choose the DPB, it leaves them more money..

[Disco Dan]

...Skidmark. Yep sorry, realise you have all probably managed to erase him from your memory!

...still the same, bludging off the tax payer. No intention to work. Has managed to get two cars over the past 6 months and systematically pulled them to bits... lost half of the bits and now sulking.

We HAVE to get tougher on these people.

[racefactory]

Why oh why do people never step out of the monetary paradigm when looking to solve problems? In this country it is acceptable to allow someone to starve or be homeless because they don't for whatever reason have money.

Einstein said 'You can not solve a problem with the same level of consciousness that created it'. If we try to beat poverty and welfare issues with money we are going to fail no matter what the plan. Money = debt in fractional reserve banking, someone is going to miss out on a dollar for every dollar spent.

How about a welfare that provides for the needs (housing, food, water and a relevant education) of people? rather than provides money for people.

Obviously we would be working in a monetary paradigm to implement a resource based approach but if NZ invested in the infrastructure to sustainably provide these basic needs the cost would be minimal after the initial investment.

Free top quality housing could be provided with contour crafting.
Free food could be provided with large scale vertical farming and hydroponics

The list could go on and on.

One needs to ask themselves though, why not just abandon money and take this approach for all of society, as basically everything in society today is geared towards making a monetary profit, presupposing that happiness and social well-being will follow.

NZ has roughly 4 million people and these people regardless of who they are need housing, however you can only get housing if you have money (buy or rent, this applies). Education, water, food- again, the most basic primitive needs and you can only get them if you have money. If people believe that in this day and age of technology and automation that we as a species still need to invest manual labour for profit in order to just house ourselves, get food and have water... then we need to further our education. What do you think will happen soon when a large portion of people have no hope of of even meeting basic human needs let alone wants in life? And we are heading down the shitter quickly now as the cost to live spirals higher, but then why should there even be a price tag to live at all apart from the cost to the environment we depend upon?

Our economic system is broken and doesn't support the majority but only a tiny portion of the population (Telecom CEO 5mil a Year, Telecom CSR $15/hr) Let's move to a resource based economy and solve our problems with science and not opinion. Everyone but the elite in this system is just a 'temporarily embarrassed millionare' that is going to make it big time someday.



We HAVE to get tougher on these people.

Everyone moaning about benefits and wanting to crack down on bludgers- you are but just puppets pleasing your masters. You people are blind; blaming the dole bludgers for not contributing to the slave machine, while the powers that be continue to laugh upon us. We look up to our slave masters, banking slobs who rape and pillage us from behind and instead we turn our nose up and show disgust at those who help and contribute to society. It's all a huge delusion surely? Besides, the far more important issue is not the fiscal leeching of our house of cards economy but rather the demographic problems that this mess is giving rise to. I suppose all you are worried about is your fucking tax money though.

[mashman]

oh FFS racefactory, stop using logic and asking KB'ers to think, let alone asking them to think at all :shifty:... that's why we have politicians...

I'm with ya though :yes:

[imdying]

Yeah, good post. The over population of the earth is just the worst case scenario of the tragedy of the commons.

The solution is quite simple. We need to exterminate as many humans as we possibly can in as short a time frame as we possibly can.

World war three isn't going to ruin humanity, it's going to save it.

[racefactory]

that's why we have politicians...


lol I know you're joking there but there are many people that sincerely believe this. That's another big delusion that we need to try think twice about. Really, how many more examples does NZ need to realise that these politicians don't give a toss about us?

-They don't know anything. Even if they were sincere about wanting to help the country they technically do not know how. Don't believe me ask one: How are you going to reduce the dole queue? How do you plan to ensure there is no corruption in government? All they can do is make laws, set budgets and declare war.

-They don't call the shots. We vote them in thinking they do but they don't. This country has a concept called "ownership", the people that own the various facilities which we need to survive and prosper call the shots: Telecom - telecommunications, Fonterra- dairy food, Banks- entire economy. Companies or capital owners are not subject to democracy (shock!), board elect their own members.

Politicians are put in place to keep things the same! They give us an election to keep us happy and lead us to believe we can change things, throw in a few terrorists that are jealous of our freedom and it's all hunkey dorey. So let's keep playing the 'Vote for this main party or that main party' game and be winners!

'None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who believe they are free'

[avgas]

You don´t think cleaning companies make money or you don´t think DNA sequencing makes money?
Or both. In the grander scale of things.
Not saying they are useless - just saying the average $ seems to go to more useless activities such as generating money out of market collapses or pointless programs that make people feel good about the crap they spew out.
I mean think of the largest (public) genetic research firm you can thing of. Compare it size to the likes of Google, Apple, BP, Facebook, S&P........
If DNA sequencing made a gagillion % more than it takes to invest it.....every man and his half-cat-dog would do it. Unfortunately it doesn't - leaving on the purely dedicated scientists left to do it. The rest of us get careers that pay the bills. Some of us come up with ideas that make stupid amounts of money of simple ideas (facebook etc).
For every DNA sequencing role on seek, I imagine there are a few 1000 DBA, Sales rep or Java Developer roles. All paying more.

Its kinda sad really.

[mashman]

Yeah, good post. The over population of the earth is just the worst case scenario of the tragedy of the commons.

The solution is quite simple. We need to exterminate as many humans as we possibly can in as short a time frame as we possibly can.

World war three isn't going to ruin humanity, it's going to save it.


Granted, overpopulation MAY be a problem. It certainly will ni the future if we continue living the way we do. The funny thing is, not everyone wants kids. I doubt a lot of Catholic (not having a go, tis the only one I know that forces the non use of contraception) women really want to get knocked up on such a regular basis. we ain't gonna be here forever, as you know (coz i seen you post it once), we're spinning on an unstable ball in the middle of nowhere with chunks of rock passing by every now and then that could well finish us off. YU55, 1300ft, coming between us and the moon, could be pretty spectacular, or just another fizzle, anyhoo...

WW3, if it happens, ain't gonna save humanity at all, coz all of the powers that be will be hunkered in bunkers, and will exit with exactly the same attitudes and mindset that they had before they went in. All that will happen is that consumption will drop and we'll awaken to the bright new dawn of a policed state, more commonly known as slavery... But hey, that's just my opinion.



lol I know you're joking there but there are many people that sincerely believe this. That's another big delusion that we need to try think twice about. Really, how many more examples does NZ need to realise that these politicians don't give a toss about us?

-They don't know anything. Even if they were sincere about wanting to help the country they technically do not know how. Don't believe me ask one: How are you going to reduce the dole queue? How do you plan to ensure there is no corruption in government? All they can do is make laws, set budgets and declare war.

-They don't call the shots. We vote them in thinking they do but they don't. This country has a concept called "ownership", the people that own the various facilities which we need to survive and prosper call the shots: Telecom - telecommunications, Fonterra- dairy food, Banks- entire economy. Companies or capital owners are not subject to democracy (shock!), board elect their own members.

Politicians are put in place to keep things the same! They give us an election to keep us happy and lead us to believe we can change things, throw in a few terrorists that are jealous of our freedom and it's all hunkey dorey. So let's keep playing the 'Vote for this main party or that main party' game and be winners!

'None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who believe they are free'


I'm part joking. I believe that a Resource Based Economy will require a governmental body. That may change over time, but I highly doubt it as we'll need some "body" to communicate with a similar body in other countries around the world. I do not believe in centralisation, well not wholly, and certainly not on a global scale, the so called NWO, t'would be very bad.

As you say, politicians (ok, some :shifty:) really don't have their finger on the pulse for the country. They're too preoccupied with balancing the books and accept job losses, poverty, inequality etc... as acceptable collaterol damage of the system they hold so dear... you really can't get more fucked up than that.

As for not calling the shots... I agree with that, I can't prove it (as some would no doubt ask me to do, but then again they can't prove that there isn't an "entity" calling the shots), but I agree that this isn't the runaway train wreck of a society that we've been led to believe (even the crims helped out in Chch, shame some on the outside didn't). This points to their being an "entity" that's calling the shots and not our government in my opinion.

We're masters of our own destiny (to a large degree), and historically money has been shown not to work as a system of "control". So why haven't the hyper intelligent people (hard to keep a straight face) that run our world addressed this issue? Is it because they believe that it's a runaway train? Or because, as you say, they're all right jack and it's the people's own fault that we're in the predicament that we are in.

[avgas]

Why oh why do people never step out of the monetary paradigm when looking to solve problems? In this country it is acceptable to allow someone to starve or be homeless because they don't for whatever reason have money.

Einstein said 'You can not solve a problem with the same level of consciousness that created it'. If we try to beat poverty and welfare issues with money we are going to fail no matter what the plan. Money = debt in fractional reserve banking, someone is going to miss out on a dollar for every dollar spent......
All good - no argument from me

Everyone moaning about benefits and wanting to crack down on bludgers- you are but just puppets pleasing your masters. You people are blind; blaming the dole bludgers for not contributing to the slave machine, while the powers that be continue to laugh upon us. We look up to our slave masters, banking slobs who rape and pillage us from behind and instead we turn our nose up and show disgust at those who help and contribute to society. It's all a huge delusion surely? Besides, the far more important issue is not the fiscal leeching of our house of cards economy but rather the demographic problems that this mess is giving rise to. I suppose all you are worried about is your fucking tax money though.
Yeah Nah mabey.
I don't think people on here are complaining at unemployed who don't care to live in the system/machine. The are complaining because they are giving to the machine, and bludgers are RECEIVING from it. No one has a problem with someone who simply steps away from society for a while. Leeches come in many forms, from the fatty banker/govt types, or the horde of little breeding ones.

[imdying]

we're spinning on an unstable ball in the middle of nowhere with chunks of rock passing by every now and then that could well finish us off. YU55, 1300ft, coming between us and the moon, could be pretty spectacular, or just another fizzle, anyhoo...Indeed. When you understand how fast we're moving in space, it's entirely possible something larger than us and unseen could hit us next week.


WW3, if it happens, ain't gonna save humanity at all, coz all of the powers that be will be hunkered in bunkers, and will exit with exactly the same attitudes and mindset that they had before they went in.Fair point. I'll chew on that.

[jonbuoy]

All good - no argument from me

Yeah Nah mabey.
I don't think people on here are complaining at unemployed who don't care to live in the system/machine. The are complaining because they are giving to the machine, and bludgers are RECEIVING from it. No one has a problem with someone who simply steps away from society for a while. Leeches come in many forms, from the fatty banker/govt types, or the horde of little breeding ones.

Yup by all means - anyone who wants to step out of the evil money system and go self sufficient in a hippy commune or go off to live with some obscure tribe in the Amazon is fine by me.

Don´t all rush out to book those tickets at once now, its hard work living off only your own means. And if you need one of those pesky doctors or dentists and some modern medicines from an evil drug company you better bring along plenty of chickens to swap.

[Indiana_Jones]

...Skidmark. Yep sorry, realise you have all probably managed to erase him from your memory!

...still the same, bludging off the tax payer. No intention to work. Has managed to get two cars over the past 6 months and systematically pulled them to bits... lost half of the bits and now sulking.

We HAVE to get tougher on these people.

Nice to see my tax dollars going to good use.....:facepalm:

-Indy

[mashman]

22 percent increase in beneficiaries under National (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/latest/10415409/22-percent-increase-in-beneficiaries-under-national/)

"Minister of Social Development Paula Bennett today simply dismissed the massive increase in beneficiary numbers by saying 'job hunting isn't easy'."

Hardly surprising when you're competing with another 60,000 people is it? But then they can't be trying hard enough.

"They say it’s because you’re lazy. They say it’s because you make poor choices. They say it’s because you’re spoiled. If you’d only apply yourself a little more, worked a little harder, planned a little better, things would go well for you. Why do you need more help? Haven’t they helped you enough? They say you have no one to blame but yourself. They say it’s all your fault." (http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/Introduction)

Oooooh look mummy, the worlds gone mad.

[Ocean1]

But then they can't be trying hard enough.

Get a haircut...

[mashman]

Get a haircut...

you're a brute :girlfight:... I'm just follically challenged

[Bikemad]

ummmm..............whats a paradigm ????:bye:

[frogfeaturesFZR]

The ChCh quakes have added to the benefit figures, but then so has the global recession. Community work for the dole sounds good, just not sure who would oversee it. Might as well do something for the weekly benefit.

[jonbuoy]

Mash man do you work or are you on benefits?

[mashman]

Mash man do you work or are you on benefits?

I work and haven't been unemployed, nay, claimed benefits in 20 odd years. Does that really make a difference?

[Oscar]

I work and haven't been unemployed, nay, claimed benefits in 20 odd years. Does that really make a difference?

Not even Working for Families?

Pensioners Bus Pass, surely?

[Ratti]

The DPB is quite good money for a solo parent. They get like $480 a week, everything subsidised (including daycare). This is the most funniest part, they can send their child to day car five times a week from 7.30 - 17.30 and then go home and do nothing. WINZ say they have requirements on the parents, that they have to do some kind of activitity that show they are working towards getting back to work but seldomly the WINZ officer will follow this up.

A person who's on minimum wage get like 900 dollars a fortnight with no subsidies. So I understand solo parents they choose the DPB, it leaves them more money..

Being on the widows benefit for nearly 3 years now. Have worked part-time doing shit jobs for all but the last 3 weeks of that time. Now that my kids are old enough for me to consider full time work, you know what? At 47 I am too old, unqualified, unattractive, not fit enough, over qualified, etc etc for anything but minimum wage jobs. Seems in spite of being very intelligent and having many practical skills, I'm unemployable.
If I did take a minimum wage job, working the worst hours, I would get $50 a week more than I get now, and it would cost me more than that in travel costs to get to the place of work.
So, what should I do?

[mashman]

Not even Working for Families?

Pensioners Bus Pass, surely?

Not even WFF.

:rofl:... I doubt I'll make it that far :)

[jonbuoy]

I work and haven't been unemployed, nay, claimed benefits in 20 odd years. Does that really make a difference?

In a thread about benefits, yes. I was under the impression you were a stay at home dad from your earlier posts. You don't even get a little bit annoyed when you get your paycheck and see how much tax you have paid into the welfare system so a portion of society can choose not to work??

[mashman]

In a thread about benefits, yes. I was under the impression you were a stay at home dad from your earlier posts. You don't even get a little bit annoyed when you get your paycheck and see how much tax you have paid into the welfare system so a portion of society can choose not to work??

Heh, fairy nuff. I wish I was a stay at home dad, but we can't afford for me not to work... that's doesn't mean I couldn't just quit the "pursuit" of steady money :shit:, but that would mean "penalising" my family by removing the advantages that having money can offer.

When I see how much tax I pay for a year I snigger. As mentioned earlier, there are no doubt MUCH better uses for my tax $$$, but at least I know that I'm providing for those that need it (paramount in this day and age), as well as a whole raft of people that really REALLY don't... and that includes those who can afford to give to charity and then claim 33% back from the govt...

Any annoyance is directed at those that can well afford not to claim anything, but because there are "mechanisms" available to them, such as structuring their tax affairs, they become eligible for benefits... That's annoying. Those who don't have jobs aren't exactly creaming it and they get taxed on 100% of their income too.

But thems is the breaks and how it always has been, and probably always will, so I'll not lose sleep over it... moreover I can take some form of perverse comfort in the knowledge that I'm doing my "bit" for those who don't have it so good... shame it's used to pay for politicians mortgages, undies and life perks.

[Winston001]

You don't even get a little bit annoyed when you get your paycheck and see how much tax you have paid into the welfare system so a portion of society can choose not to work??

I don't. To be honest I don't even think about paying for beneficiaries. Tax is for schools, roads, hospitals, police, government, overseas aid, earthquakes etc etc. And old age super-annuitants.

I've taken an interest in politics for most of my life and have seen attacks on beneficiaries come and go. I used to agree but now I believe its pointless. The most simple solution is jobs and they cannot be magically whipped up out of thin air. Things will get better.

[Ocean1]

those who can afford to give to charity and then claim 33% back from the govt...

Pardon?

And tenshit

[mashman]

Pardon?

And tenshit

where de confusion?

[Ocean1]

Tax is for schools, roads, hospitals, police, government, overseas aid, earthquakes etc etc. And old age super-annuitants.


Yes.

And help for those who need it.

Trouble only starts when you try to qualify "need".

[Ocean1]

where de confusion?

You seem to object to the notion of treating a charitable donation as tax exempt like any other cost. If that's the case why? And what effect do you suppose the alternative might have on the level of donations?

[mashman]

You seem to object to the notion of treating a charitable donation as tax exempt like any other cost. If that's the case why? And what effect do you suppose the alternative might have on the level of donations?

Now where are you leading me with that... hmmmmmmm, let me see...... and the alternative is to just tax the bastards... and if they feel like donating to charity, then let them... surely it's about the giving and not the getting back? Less administration costs too perhaps.

[Ocean1]

Now where are you leading me with that...

Towards a more rational understanding of the world?

If someone donates a certain sum to charity why would they pay tax on that? And if they did surely they'd simply flag it, eh? Or at least revise the amount they can afford to give by 33%?

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you...

[James Deuce]

Towards a more rational understanding of the world?

If someone donates a certain sum to charity why would they pay tax on that? And if they did surely they'd simply flag it, eh? Or at least revise the amount they can afford to give by 33%?

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you...


Ahh, now, that's a simple one. Charities are not about servicing the needs of them people they claim to be servicing. They are simply there to service their administrative overheads. If a tenth of the money collected to help the people a charity claims they are collecting for got to the people that need it in the form of services or money to enable access to services the world would be a better place.

As it stands the bastards need to be taxed into oblivion. Maybe then we'd be able to introduce some sort of support structure into the education system for the disabled thanks to an increased tax take that was ring fenced for the health and education requirements of the disabled.

[jonbuoy]

Now where are you leading me with that... hmmmmmmm, let me see...... and the alternative is to just tax the bastards... and if they feel like donating to charity, then let them... surely it's about the giving and not the getting back? Less administration costs too perhaps.

Why are they bastards? Is the mad butcher a bastard for doing well for himself? Bill gates?

[Ocean1]

Charities are not about servicing the needs of them people they claim to be servicing.

My aim's better than that. It's unlikely those I donate to are on the official register.

[mashman]

Towards a more rational understanding of the world?

If someone donates a certain sum to charity why would they pay tax on that? And if they did surely they'd simply flag it, eh? Or at least revise the amount they can afford to give by 33%?

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you...

:rofl: I understand it fine thanks... doesn't mean I have to like it eh :shifty:

It's disposable income (as mentioned in the CGT thread, I realise that mine is a "petty"? point of view). Maybe. Probably.

Ok... the hand that allows me to be fed comes in two colours, Red and Blue, with a few other colours thrown in for alternative purposes... they :shifty:...................



Why are they bastards? Is the mad butcher a bastard for doing well for himself? Bill gates?

:girlfight: I don't care how well they do for themselves, whoopdeefeckindoo, congratulations, let's have a party to celebrate their wonderfullness... they eat, shit and root... and you're all bastards :bleh:

[Ocean1]

It's disposable income

Now there's a weasle-word.

It suits you.

[mashman]

Now there's a weasle-word.

It suits you.

a weasle-word ... uck foff, it's their choice to use their income in any way they choose :innocent:

[BoristheBiter]

a weasle-word ... uck foff, it's their choice to use their income in any way they choose :innocent:

I wouldn't call it a weasel word, just a poor choice of word.

[Winston001]

Ahh, now, that's a simple one. Charities are not about servicing the needs of them people they claim to be servicing. They are simply there to service their administrative overheads. If a tenth of the money collected to help the people a charity claims they are collecting for got to the people that need it in the form of services or money to enable access to services the world would be a better place.

As it stands the bastards need to be taxed into oblivion. Maybe then we'd be able to introduce some sort of support structure into the education system for the disabled thanks to an increased tax take that was ring fenced for the health and education requirements of the disabled.

That's a surprisingly disconsonant view from you Jim, I have to assume you have personal experience in mind.

I've been involved with charities for decades (unpaid) and its always hand to mouth. The bigger charities need to be run like a business these days in order to survive and that means employing staff. Trust me, volunteers just won't take on the risk and commitment anymore.

One charity I chair and do volunteer work for spends half its money on wages and administration. Initially this looked off until I learned of the amount of work involved keeping the accounts, organising projects, managing a second hand shop, bloody auditors etc. Not only that but we provide employment for people who would struggle to get a job elsewhere. Low literacy, health problems. Its humbling actually.

The point is that charities provide an unseen social service that most do not know about. For example severely disabled people in wheelchairs doing work that no-one else will give them a chance at.

[avgas]

What do you guys think if we changed from a benefit system to a scholarship one?

[Banditbandit]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
You say that tax dodgers (working but not paying tax) are bludgers but them on the dole (not working but taking money) aren't.

I thought you had a fucked up out look but that takes the cake.

:facepalm: Now .. where did I say those on the dole were not bludgers?

In some cases, yes, I think they are. There will be abusers in any ststrem. In other caes, no they are not ... they are between jobs and need a liottle help ...

But I don't believe I have ever stated that people on the dole are not bludgers ...

[Banditbandit]

Been away for a few weeks on urgent family business .. won't try to catch up ...


Regarding communism up until a few posts ago you were arguing that all workers were entitled to the same wage regardless of what job they were doing, now you say its not part of a communist system?

Hmmm . I am not a communist .. I share Marx' analysis, but not his solutions ... I'm a classic Anarchist (For those of you who want to read .. Rocker, Proudhon and Malatesta are my favourities)

I do think "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" .. now that does not mean that each person gets THE SAME ... nor is it necessarily part of a communist system that each person gets paid the same regardless of what job they do ... Marx never conceived that at all ...

I am actually attacking most of what people here believe communism is ... Like Avgas I would not live under such a system and given a violent communist revolution I would almost certainly take up arms against it ...

But most of you here are sucked in by the Capitalist propoganda about what Communism is ... you are just as enslaved as China .. just by a different mechanism ...

Free your minds people .. or you will never be truly free

[mashman]

What do you guys think if we changed from a benefit system to a scholarship one?

Vas? +chars

[Coolz]

I once read a book called The Mountain Men of Borneo. Written by an anthropologist who lived with the tribe for a couple of years. These people had a good social structure,high moral standards and respect for each other.They were all healthy and prosperous and lived in harmony untill one season the rain never came and the crops died. The tribe grew hungry and started quarrelling and disrespecting each other.Some got sick and were not cared for by the others. Stealing and other petty crime, previously unheard of, started to happen. Soon it turned to major crime, robbery,murder, leading to a complete deteriation of all social and moral standards.When the rain finally came and the soil was again furtile, nobody returned to work, they had fallen to far into decline. This was a true story. What I take from this is that it is easy to hold the moral high ground when you have a job and a few dollars in the bank. What would happen if you took all the beneficiaries and made them millionares, and made all the millionares beneficiaries? I think the newly rich would become honest respected members of society and the newly poor would conive,steal and backstab to survive. What we need in this country is one hundred percent employment. Everyone has the right to work. We need to cut profits and raise wages. Create jobs and train people for them. And stop bringing in imigrants to do the menial jobs for pay less than the dole. Surely this is achievable in the twentyfirst century in Godzone.

[Winston001]

Everyone has the right to work. We need to cut profits and raise wages. Create jobs and train people for them. And stop bringing in immigrants to do the menial jobs for pay less than the dole.

Good post and just picking up one piece.

In a social democracy such as NZ (and most of the 40 OECD countries) every citizen has the right to work. Not so in Islamic nations where women are subservient etc.

Cut profits? Honestly? New Zealand businesses struggle even in the good times. Cutting profits would simply encourage people to shut down and work for wages. Or emigrate to Australia.

Immigrants are human beings. Shouldn't they have the right to work? Indeed, don't people in third world countries willing to earn 50c/hr have the same right to work as you and I? For 300 million in India that is way above a survivable wage.

Governments have tried to create work schemes in all sorts of guises ever since Franklin D Roosevelt introduced the New Deal in 1933. That worked but only at that time and place.

If it was easy, all jobs would be created by governments. They aren't.

[Coolz]

Goverments operate on a policy of having a 5% unemployment pool. This available labour pool keeps wages down and inflation under control. A few years ago there was a shortage of truck drivers. Instead of making wages more attractive or encouraging and training unemployed, drivers were bought in from overseas. I dont see things like this as being good for the country in the long run.

[rainman]

Cut profits? Honestly? New Zealand businesses struggle even in the good times.

More an artefact of our historical idiocy than anything else, but agree, this is one reason why the OWS stuff doesn't translate well into smaller places. The principle behind it is sound, however - capitalism destroys the commons and impoverishes the many(99%)/enriches the few(1%), by design. But maybe this belongs on the other thread...


Immigrants are human beings. Shouldn't they have the right to work?

Thanks, I certainly think so. :) Although at this stage, having worked every day for the last 6 weeks, I'd like the right to rest!

I'm always fascinated by this part of the broader globalism debate. Fundamentally, it's a defense of benefits and the welfare state, wider inequality, and an extra dose of race to the bottom. These tend not to be views endorsed by its proponents, however.

If we move the jobs to the poor third-worlders, then we deprive the locals of those opportunities, thereby reducing their likely income and in many cases needing to supplement it with welfare. Sure, some will find new opportunities and build new local industries but that happens anyway, and the opportunity, capacity and capability constraints implicit in any society mean that this can't fully compensate for the "loss". As you point out, it's hard to create sustainable jobs - much harder than destroying or outsourcing them.

And, let's be honest, some people just aren't entrepreneurs and won't be no matter how hard they try. Sure, we can't all be workers in a capitalist economy, but we can't all be entrepreneurs either. (And aspiring to be a amorphous mass of "free individuals" anarcho-capitalists that trade amongst ourselves is as idealistic as libertarian socialism. Not happening in any timeframe worth talking about).

But those that do outsource labour (the 1% of recent rhetoric) get the principal benefit of this mechanism. I'd love to have the time to do a rigorous comparison of weighted global consumer prices vs global wages, but I doubt the result would surprise anyone. Prices drop a little, wages a lot. Welfare bills go up. Inequality increases. (The effects of environmental impact in the third-world recipient countries also need to be built into a proper analysis, I=PAT and all that - but moving on).

This is an inescapable consequence of the system we operate - welfare dependency and inequality (and environmental destruction) happen directly because of global capitalism. These are entirely expected outcomes.

So I think you have two choices if you are to be consistent:
1. If you like the system we have, then you need to defend all of it - inequality and welfare included. No whining about lazy dole bludgers, no timid "well maybe a bit of inequality is kinda OK". No vague nods to environmental issues.
2. If you don't like the consequences, you need to change the system.

Can't have it both ways.

[rainman]

Goverments operate on a policy of having a 5% unemployment pool. This available labour pool keeps wages down and inflation under control. A few years ago there was a shortage of truck drivers. Instead of making wages more attractive or encouraging and training unemployed, drivers were bought in from overseas. I dont see things like this as being good for the country in the long run.

Likewise. Also things like this: http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/5799232/We-need-more-cheap-foreign-fishermen

[Winston001]

Governments operate on a policy of having a 5% unemployment pool.

No they don't.

[FJRider]

Goverments operate on a policy of having a 5% unemployment pool. This available labour pool keeps wages down and inflation under control. A few years ago there was a shortage of truck drivers. Instead of making wages more attractive or encouraging and training unemployed, drivers were bought in from overseas. I dont see things like this as being good for the country in the long run.



Bullshit .... If wages were made "more attractive" production costs would increase ... to the point where it's cheaper to buy the same thing overseas ... even WITH shipping costs..

Oh wait ... they're there now .....

Lower the wages ... a bigger tax take ... (more than the Dole would) more money in ciculation/being spent ... everything NZ made would be cheaper ...

Just imaging the benefits (for want of a better word) we ALL would have ... if ALL the welfare money was spent on education AND medical care ...

[Winston001]

If we move the jobs to the poor third-worlders, then we deprive the locals of those opportunities, thereby reducing their likely income and in many cases needing to supplement it with welfare.



Interesting points and I particularly agree with you regarding shifting environmental degradation to poorer countries while we enjoy the clean and green.

As for the above, how do we explain Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Switzerland...and Australia?

Finland is an icebound spot of land at the top of the world and no rational person would pick it to have a strong economy. Switzerland is a mountainous land-locked country - they don't even have any shipping ports. And they don't have an annual handout of Nazi gold despite popular belief. :D

[Swoop]

If it was easy, all jobs would be created by governments.
Previous NZ governments have cleverly expanded the "public servant's" workforce.
Yay for bums-on-(taxpayer)seats...

[FJRider]

What would happen if you took all the beneficiaries and made them millionares, and made all the millionares beneficiaries? I think the newly rich would become honest respected members of society and the newly poor would conive,steal and backstab to survive..

And I think ...

The newly rich would piss it all against the wall. Or spend it all within six months ... and be back on the benefit again ... just like a few Lotto ... winners (??) did ... and the newly poor, will get off their asses ... AGAIN ... and start making money ... again ...

Simple really ...
The coniving, stealing, and backstabbing ... will be done by the family members of the newly rich ...


What we need in this country is one hundred percent employment..

The opportunity for that exists now ... all those that WANT a job, can get off their ass and apply for work they CAN do ... not just jobs they think they SHOULD be doing .... or might be able to do ... if the money was right ...


Everyone has the right to work. We need to cut profits and raise wages. Create jobs and train people for them. And stop bringing in imigrants to do the menial jobs for pay less than the dole. Surely this is achievable in the twentyfirst century in Godzone.

The "right" to work already exists ... but that right is often confused with mistaken belief ... their "right" to work, is more important than everybody (ANYBODY) elses ...

Those "menial jobs for pay less than the dole" are more often than not ... work paid on contract rates. (the more you do ... the more you get paid.)
Work I myself have done on many occasions ... sometimes well, sometimes not.

Work hard-get paid well.
Fuck around-Get less than the Dole.

Oh ... and your theory "We need to cut profits and raise wages" ... if you cut profits ... the employer makes less money ... can't afford to pay wages ... AND ... stay IN business ... and goes OUT of business ... mmmmm ... a tiny flaw in your plan appears ...

[mashman]

Work hard-get paid well.
Fuck around-Get less than the Dole.

:killingme ... yeah, that's how it works.


Likewise. Also things like this: http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/5799232/We-need-more-cheap-foreign-fishermen

[Coolz]

There are not enough jobs for everyone.In Whangarei there are 50 jobs listed in the paper and on the net. There are probably another 50 unadvertised. There are 4000 unemployed in Whangarei,this is 6.9 of the workforce, about the same as the national average.

[FJRider]

There are not enough jobs for everyone.In Whangarei there are 50 jobs listed in the paper and on the net. There are probably another 50 unadvertised. There are 4000 unemployed in Whangarei,this is 6.9 of the workforce, about the same as the national average.

I would say a lot more than 50 unadvertised ... because those that DO advertise, get unindated with E. mailed 20 page CV's ... extolling the virtues of the long-term dole bludgers that send them.

To get a job ... Go out and knock on doors ... door by door.

Employers are looking for people that are willing to work, and make an effort to find work.

Second option is to move to where there IS work ... (I've done THAT a few times too ...)

[Coolz]

I would say a lot more than 50 unadvertised ... because those that DO advertise, get unindated with E. mailed 20 page CV's ... extolling the virtues of the long-term dole bludgers that send them.

To get a job ... Go out and knock on doors ... door by door.

Employers are looking for people that are willing to work, an make an effort to find work.

Second option is to move to where there IS work ... (I've done THAT a few times too ...)
Even if there were 500 unadvertised jobs itis not enough for 4000 unemployed. Why do you call those who apply online bludgers,I would have thought this term was for those who make no effort at all. You are right ,it is the proactive who find work, though I have noticed firms now putting up signs to discourage cold calling. My interest in this topic is not for myself but for my grandson who will be leaving school soon and his mum does not want him to leave the area to find work.

[scumdog]

There are not enough jobs for everyone.In Whangarei there are 50 jobs listed in the paper and on the net. There are probably another 50 unadvertised. There are 4000 unemployed in Whangarei,this is 6.9 of the workforce, about the same as the national average.

So why do so many chose to live there???:blink:

Sure as hell can't be for the job opportunities the place presents.

So it must be for the LACK of job opportunities eh...<_<

[scumdog]

his mum does not want him to leave the area to find work.

Why not?:confused:

[FJRider]

Even if there were 500 unadvertised jobs it is not enough for 4000 unemployed.

So ... unless it's cheap to buy/rent ... but no work ... why do they stay ... ???


Why do you call those who apply online bludgers,I would have thought this term was for those who make no effort at all.

I would hardly call pushing a few keys on a computer keyboard ... effort ...


You are right ,it is the proactive who find work, though I have noticed firms now putting up signs to discourage cold calling. My interest in this topic is not for myself but for my grandson who will be leaving school soon and his mum does not want him to leave the area to find work.

Those firms putting the signs up are entitled to if they choose ... obviously/maybe ... they dont need more staff ...

Perhaps you tell your granson to stay in school, or go to university. Or ... get off his own ass ... and maybe (with the help of his school careers advisor) get an apprenticeship ...

And maybe ... get him to cut those apron strings ... his mother will live ... afterwards ...

[FJRider]

Why not?:confused:

Apron strings too thick to cut .... :facepalm:

or a mummys boy ...

[rainman]

Interesting points and I particularly agree with you regarding shifting environmental degradation to poorer countries while we enjoy the clean and green.

As for the above, how do we explain Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Switzerland...and Australia?

Finland is an icebound spot of land at the top of the world and no rational person would pick it to have a strong economy. Switzerland is a mountainous land-locked country - they don't even have any shipping ports.

Couple of factors: good social policy in the case of the Scandies, and geography. They're all in the middle of Europe. Aussie has minerals, and more importantly decent social and labour policy, less wholesale adoption of the Friedmanite madness of the mid 80s. (In this regard, they're much smarter than us).

Or am I missing what it is you think needs explaining about them?

[Coolz]

The hardest thing to close is a mouth that always opens while the hardest thing to open is a mind that is firmly closed....eh smarty pants.

[Winston001]

Couple of factors: good social policy in the case of the Scandies, and geography. They're all in the middle of Europe. Aussie has minerals, and more importantly decent social and labour policy, less wholesale adoption of the Friedmanite madness of the mid 80s. (In this regard, they're much smarter than us).

Or am I missing what it is you think needs explaining about them?

Fair enough. So how do we explain the opposite end of the scale - Portugal, Ireland, Greece, and Spain? Those nations also have decent social policies and are part of the 500 million European market. Rationally they should be as wealthy as the Scandies.

I don't have an answer but one difference is culture. Is it possible that the Puritan work ethic is the fundamental value? And social and labour policies are secondary?

[BoristheBiter]

Couple of factors: good social policy in the case of the Scandies, and geography. They're all in the middle of Europe. Aussie has minerals, and more importantly decent social and labour policy, less wholesale adoption of the Friedmanite madness of the mid 80s. (In this regard, they're much smarter than us).

Or am I missing what it is you think needs explaining about them?


And what do you determine as good social policy?
Would you say Saudi Arabia has good social policy or like Aussie it is just mineral wealth?

Or is it we are such a small population we are effected by the littlest change in the world economy?

[jonbuoy]

:killingme ... yeah, that's how it works.

Yup, they don't have to stay on fishing boats forever, get some seatime do their tickets and they can go work anywhere in the world and earn some serious money, that is if they can see long term and put some effort in.

[mashman]

Yup, they don't have to stay on fishing boats forever, get some seatime do their tickets and they can go work anywhere in the world and earn some serious money, that is if they can see long term and put some effort in.

Nice idea. What does it take to get a ticket?

[BoristheBiter]

Nice idea. What does it take to get a ticket?

Hard work.

[FJRider]

Hard work.

Hard work will never catch on ... the financial rewards ... just aren't there ...

Oh wait ... they ARE ... but few can be bothered ...

[scumdog]

The hardest thing to close is a mouth that always opens while the hardest thing to open is a mind that is firmly closed....eh smarty pants.

MY mind is open - fill it with knowledge...

[mashman]

Hard work.

I've done the job, and it isn't that hard once you get used to it, just long hours. I meant qualifications smart ass :bleh:



Hard work will never catch on ... the financial rewards ... just aren't worth there ...

Oh wait ... they ARE ... but few can be bothered ...


Is it a growth industry?

[FJRider]

The hardest thing to close is a mouth that always opens while the hardest thing to open is a mind that is firmly closed....eh smarty pants.

The easiest thing to open ... is your own front door. In search of your next occupation ...

Oh wait ... the easiest thing is to let mummy and Grandad ... go looking FOR you ...

[rainman]

Fair enough. So how do we explain the opposite end of the scale - Portugal, Ireland, Greece, and Spain?

Struggling to see the link to my comment, here. Do you agree that a consequence of supporting global capitalism is having to support welfare and inequality, or not?

The factors that make one company or country successful and another not are many and varied. Attributing success (individual, corporate, or "cultural") to a puritan work ethic alone is way simplistic.


And what do you determine as good social policy?
Would you say Saudi Arabia has good social policy or like Aussie it is just mineral wealth?

Well, I quite like their approach to welfare and tax, and Sweden and Norway have a solid approach to state assets. But you may disagree of course.

Saudi might have effective policy just now, but they're repressive and aristocratic and their setup won't last against resource depletion and local demographics. Heads will roll at some point, and it ain't gonna be the proles, says my money..


Or is it we are such a small population we are effected by the littlest change in the world economy?

Now you have something. So what's a sane response to being small and geographically isolated, with a risky undifferentiated economy? Full market liberalisation, freely floating currency, few overseas investment restrictions, and (partial, whatever) asset sales? Of something else?

And, back on topic, which approach is better for NZ and our social welfare problem (we do have one)? Maybe we should be a bit more patriotic?

[jonbuoy]

Nice idea. What does it take to get a ticket?

Experience and some training courses and exams, either engineering or deck depending on which way they wanted to go. I've only just switched from being a contractor to crew, taken me a long time to get the experience.

[mashman]

Experience and some training courses and exams, either engineering or deck depending on which way they wanted to go. I've only just switched from being a contractor to crew, taken me a long time to get the experience.

I wonder if the govt could tout it as an apprenticeship? It was never mentioned as an option when I were a lad, short of the merchant navy that is. I enjoyed being on the ocean, although I get seasick these days, go figure.

[BoristheBiter]

I've done the job, and it isn't that hard once you get used to it, just long hours. I meant qualifications smart ass :bleh:


It's still a hard job, just over time you become conditioned. When i'm out on the rigs it takes about 3 days to get used to the long hours then its fine, but then being in the engine room is a lot easier than on deck.
As for quals it depends on what job you want to do.




Well, I quite like their approach to welfare and tax, and Sweden and Norway have a solid approach to state assets. But you may disagree of course.

Saudi might have effective policy just now, but they're repressive and aristocratic and their setup won't last against resource depletion and local demographics. Heads will roll at some point, and it ain't gonna be the proles, says my money..


As for assets no we shouldn't be selling them off and like the middle east the government should keep our oil and gas fields and not let overseas company's own them, and if they do then they pay shit loads of money for the right.

The problem with the likes of Saudi is they do the "distribution" method. There is no tax and the dole is easier to hand out as they can afford it, but now they have a problem as the younger generations just sit around a do nothing as they don't need to so they have had an increase in general disorder.
Now could you imagine what it would be like if you add the NZ drinking culture into that.



Now you have something. So what's a sane response to being small and geographically isolated, with a risky undifferentiated economy? Full market liberalisation, freely floating currency, few overseas investment restrictions, and (partial, whatever) asset sales? Of something else?

And, back on topic, which approach is better for NZ and our social welfare problem (we do have one)? Maybe we should be a bit more patriotic?

Its hard to say as i am a bit of a hoarder so i say keep everything owned by NZ, stop all ownership by overseas investment and put tariffs in place to protect our own market.
This will never happen as we are such a small market and we have to open up our borders so we can access others and this i understand but when you start selling off our core assets, power, minerals or even farming land we will start to see the end of NZ as we know it as once it leaves we will never afford to get it back.(unless its worthless like Kiwirail).
Take the Craffer farms, the Chinese bid had all ready let it be known that all products and profits would go straight back to China and it was only when they thought they might loose it did they say they would give some back to NZ, not the milk products, only a bit of environmental repair.
I have nothing against overseas investment but time and time again I have seen little in the way of benefit to NZ apart from the initial payment.

As for back onto topic the problem I see it is, and yes I think there is a problem, it is now a right rather than a privilege and there is nothing expected for it.
One day a week all on a benefit, no matter what one, should be made to work. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of community work that needs doing but the funds are not there so some free labour might be helpful.
Look at Christchurch, how much is it costing to clean up the city, we are paying for them anyway so we might as well get them doing something useful.
The other one is, as has been said before, stop giving them money. Pay for all items (rent, power, phone etc) straight into the accounts of said company's. Or give them a debit card that can only be used at certain places and only for the normal essentials, no fags, alcohol, chips, biscuits or takeaways.

Let the flaming begin.

[Winston001]

Struggling to see the link to my comment, here. Do you agree that a consequence of supporting global capitalism is having to support welfare and inequality, or not?

I think your point is inevitable welfare and No, I do not agree. The reason we can afford to transfer jobs to other nations is because we are comparatively richer and better educated. If it were otherwise, we'd do the work here for the same input cost. New jobs arise and if this was not true, the OECD would be home to 50% unemployment.

That is not to say that we needn't provide welfare - there are always going to be people who struggle, who need the safety net. In the short term when jobs are lost, Yes, welfare is a consequence.

After the 1984 restructuring of the NZ economy tens of thousands of jobs disappeared - clothing and footware manufacturing in particular. Where are all those unemployed today?

As for inequality being a consequence, No I don't can't see that either. However I am sympathetic to the idea of wealth redistribution. That sympathy is a good example of changing one's thinking over time. Only 5 years ago I'd have argued against wealth taxes.


The factors that make one company or country successful and another not are many and varied. Attributing success (individual, corporate, or "cultural") to a puritan work ethic alone is way simplistic.




Certainly but this is KB. :D Short simple ideas are de rigour.

We learn by observation, by testing and experimenting with what others do. Not everything Scandanavian and Teutonic will be right for NZ but we'd be wise to find the key strategies which work for them.

[mashman]

It's still a hard job, just over time you become conditioned. When i'm out on the rigs it takes about 3 days to get used to the long hours then its fine, but then being in the engine room is a lot easier than on deck.
As for quals it depends on what job you want to do.


I guess if you're working for less than minimum wage, getting access to the funding required to gain the quals isn't going to be possible?

"John Key and other Ministers have promised that work is the way out of poverty. All that had to happen was a few sticks and carrots to provide the incentives."
(http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/10649677/welfare-reform-huge-tragedy/)

Pay people a reasonable wage and that may well be the case. Tis a fuckin shame that people can't grasp that simple concept. Employers won't pay, because they can't, because they have profit margins to maintain (those that have extra that is) and so people stay on the dole because they'll earn more. It's a no brainer... and crying about people not being willing to put in the hard yards for fuck all doesn't help anything... especially if you're comparing life 10-20 years ago to today... things have changed, technology has rendered many manual jobs obselete. Pay proper wages. If you can't afford it, then you shouldn't be in business...

[BoristheBiter]

I guess if you're working for less than minimum wage, getting access to the funding required to gain the quals isn't going to be possible?

"John Key and other Ministers have promised that work is the way out of poverty. All that had to happen was a few sticks and carrots to provide the incentives."
(http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/10649677/welfare-reform-huge-tragedy/)

Pay people a reasonable wage and that may well be the case. Tis a fuckin shame that people can't grasp that simple concept. Employers won't pay, because they can't, because they have profit margins to maintain (those that have extra that is) and so people stay on the dole because they'll earn more. It's a no brainer... and crying about people not being willing to put in the hard yards for fuck all doesn't help anything... especially if you're comparing life 10-20 years ago to today... things have changed, technology has rendered many manual jobs obselete. Pay proper wages. If you can't afford it, then you shouldn't be in business...

I trained on less than minimum wage, it's called an apprenticeship, I now own a business.

I have gone out of my way to help a few that have no quals to get a start, sure it's a package from WINZ, but without that I wouldn't be able to afford to do it. only one out of five has gone on to do anything, the others just sat around doing fuck all and that's if they ever turned up. So sorry to pour cold water on your theory but paying someone a decent wage does not mean they will sort their shit out.

If you want proper wages then put in the effort, if not stop crying about the fact you are paid shit as there are a lot more standing behind you waiting for the chance.
If you want to say on a benefit then expect to have to do something for it.
All your crying about us business's not paying our way who do you think pays the bills now?

[mashman]

I trained on less than minimum wage, it's called an apprenticeship, I now own a business.

I have gone out of my way to help a few that have no quals to get a start, sure it's a package from WINZ, but without that I wouldn't be able to afford to do it. only one out of five has gone on to do anything, the others just sat around doing fuck all and that's if they ever turned up. So sorry to pour cold water on your theory but paying someone a decent wage does not mean they will sort their shit out.

If you want proper wages then put in the effort, if not stop crying about the fact you are paid shit as there are a lot more standing behind you waiting for the chance.
If you want to say on a benefit then expect to have to do something for it.
All your crying about us business's not paying our way who do you think pays the bills now?

Don't those who don't do the job usually get sacked? So not paying a decent wage is encouraging people to do it for the love of it? the theory behind making people do something for their dole is ridiculous (even though I agree with you on that, apart from the making them bit). Why not make those who get any form govt benefit, including businesses, do the same thing. Why just those on the dole? Because they're doing nothing? I thought they had an obligation to be out job hunting? Twice (and some) as hard for the parents that they were targetting.

"Making" people do anything sets a bad precedent imho as it will encourage that sort of work to be the norm. Why have qualified people when you can grab a few doley's instead... exactly as in the FCV article. Removing benefits because people refuse/don't have the time etc... will only result in people finding less lawful ways of earning a living, which in turn sucks up more money in the form of policing and containment at her majesties pleasure.

Paying a decent wage is an incentive. If the people suck, sack 'em, they're not cut out for it and they can go back to living on the dole.

[BoristheBiter]

Don't those who don't do the job usually get sacked? So not paying a decent wage is encouraging people to do it for the love of it? the theory behind making people do something for their dole is ridiculous (even though I agree with you on that, apart from the making them bit). Why not make those who get any form govt benefit, including businesses, do the same thing. Why just those on the dole? Because they're doing nothing? I thought they had an obligation to be out job hunting? Twice (and some) as hard for the parents that they were targetting.

"Making" people do anything sets a bad precedent imho as it will encourage that sort of work to be the norm. Why have qualified people when you can grab a few doley's instead... exactly as in the FCV article. Removing benefits because people refuse/don't have the time etc... will only result in people finding less lawful ways of earning a living, which in turn sucks up more money in the form of policing and containment at her majesties pleasure.

Paying a decent wage is an incentive. If the people suck, sack 'em, they're not cut out for it and they can go back to living on the dole.

But isn't making me pay for them to sit on the dole setting a bad precedent?
And just to be clear I am including all benefits.

[FJRider]

Don't those who don't do the job usually get sacked? So not paying a decent wage is encouraging people to do it for the love of it? the theory behind making people do something for their dole is ridiculous (even though I agree with you on that, apart from the making them bit). Why not make those who get any form govt benefit, including businesses, do the same thing. Why just those on the dole? Because they're doing nothing? I thought they had an obligation to be out job hunting? Twice (and some) as hard for the parents that they were targetting.

It is actually quite difficult for employers to sack an employee ... and could be liable for thousands of $$$$ if they get it wrong ...
Verbal ... then written warnings must be given for sackable offences ... not unsatisfactory ... or unliked ... behaviour and work practices ...

One "job applicant" I saw in a firm I worked for ... had a form the "prospective employer" had to sign ... to prove a job there had been applied for. He even ADMITTED he didn't want the job, but was qualified to do it ... just didn't want it ....
and was basicly ... collecting signatures ...

[Ocean1]

I trained on less than minimum wage, it's called an apprenticeship, I now own a business.

Ditto. I think I started on about ¼ of what a journeyman got, which seemed right then. It seems right now, apprentices don’t actually earn a business anything, what small contribution they make is more than offset by the loss of the tradesmen’s time in teaching them. A lot of my mates got semi-skilled jobs paying twice what I got. That hasn't been the case with any of them for several decades. I used to say that apprentices were an investment in the company's future, but they rarely stick around long enough to make that believable.


I have gone out of my way to help a few that have no quals to get a start, sure it's a package from WINZ, but without that I wouldn't be able to afford to do it.

Also ditto. And, like me, I know many businessmen who have given it a good shot and given up. Small technically focused enterprises can’t afford unskilled labour, (and that describes a bloody big hunk of NZ business). Also, unfortunately “unskilled” and “labour” are the best you can hope for from WINZ.

[mashman]

But isn't making me pay for them to sit on the dole setting a bad precedent?
And just to be clear I am including all benefits.

heh, I removed that from my previous post before posting... yes, it does... but the alternatives to paying dole are probably much more expensive, financially and socially and we know that the govts these days don't like shelling out any more than they have to when it comes to those on the bottom of the pile. There's no real financial incentive to get off their arse and do anything... an argument that is constantly used when discussing a "free" NZ.

Does all benefits include tax relief?

[Ocean1]

I guess if you're working for less than minimum wage, getting access to the funding required to gain the quals isn't going to be possible?

Five years after belatedly sitting school cert my neighbour had held down a full time job while raising three kids by herself and got her masters, tell her it can't be done.

[mashman]

It is actually quite difficult for employers to sack an employee ... and could be liable for thousands of $$$$ if they get it wrong ...
Verbal ... then written warnings must be given for sackable offences ... not unsatisfactory ... or unliked ... behaviour and work practices ...

One "job applicant" I saw in a firm I worked for ... had a form the "prospective employer" had to sign ... to prove a job there had been applied for. He even ADMITTED he didn't want the job, but was qualified to do it ... just didn't want it ....
and was basicly ... collecting signatures ...

Fair point. I know that needs to change. I would like to have thought that continual lack of productivity, ignoring warnings, would be grounds for sacking... given that it's costing money to carry a "useless" employee an' all. I guess "they're" worried that there'd be shitloads of people on the dole :rofl:

There's a place for career shy people (and eternal students). I see no point in fighting it as they'll always be there... or in jail. We need to keep coughing up until something changes... and it won't be "them". Hey-ho. Nothing's changed.

[mashman]

Five years after belatedly sitting school cert my neighbour had held down a full time job while raising three kids by herself and got her masters, tell her it can't be done.

I'm not saying it can't be done as I've done it myself, albeit part time jobs and 1 kid and only a degree... but the cost of education and the cost of "living" has changed dramatically in the last 5 years, let alone the last 20ish since I did my yards. Uni fees have just been hiked again (just Auck?), "assistance" has been cut back and who really wants 20k's worth of debt before they've even started? Especially if when they're qualified they're only gonna earn about 30k? My debt was about 13k (5 years to pay it off) and my parents Uni debt (dad late 20's, mum early 30's) was 0k. Things have changed a hell of a lot. Not only has the cost of living risen, so has the cost of education... and there's no "guarantee" that you'll get a job any more. Sure it can still be done, but I doubt I'd take it on these days.

[Ocean1]

I'm not saying it can't be done as I've done it myself, albeit part time jobs and 1 kid and only a degree... but the cost of education and the cost of "living" has changed dramatically in the last 5 years, let alone the last 20ish since I did my yards.

I agree. One thing we probably both agree on is the importance of free education for everyone, not just the rich. Not just those with a comunity services card either. Free health too, again; the most cost effective care and drugs, free for all, without the distortions that generations of politicians and lobbyists have caused.

[mashman]

I agree. One thing we probably both agree on is the importance of free education for everyone, not just the rich. Not just those with a comunity services card either. Free health too, again; the most cost effective care and drugs, free for all, without the distortions that generations of politicians and lobbyists have caused.

Nope, totally disagree with you there :rofl:. Aye, spot on. I suppose it's too hard to keep gearing education policy towards the needs of the country?... let alone training and looking after the health your workforce free of charge. Hardly surprising that people feck off overseas once qualified. To return when they need their pension :shit:

[Ocean1]

I suppose it's too hard to keep gearing education policy towards the needs of the country?...

It'll remain too hard as long as we continue to allow politicians to buy votes. There's more important things to focus on than trying to steal enough from the "rich" to pay the "poor" the same.

[mashman]

It'll remain too hard as long as we continue to allow politicians to buy votes. There's more important things to focus on than trying to steal enough from the "rich" to pay the "poor" the same.

Steal :rofl:... you're right though, there's no political innovation anymore, just copy what the other country did even if the policy didn't work (socially). I'd say the distribution of wealth is at the heart of most issues these days though (shame a huge amount of it ends up overseas), and then it's used as a tool for kickin either the rich or poor. Although there are those on both sides who deserve a kickin. Everything costs too money eh :facepalm:... research, feasibility, compliance, legality, audit etc... aaaaaand yet policies still fail to make a positive mark on the way things are. It may well not be easy, but I'd rather pay more tax and move forwards than pay more tax and either be going nowhere or going very quickly backwards.

[Usarka]

Five years after belatedly sitting school cert my neighbour had held down a full time job while raising three kids by herself and got her masters, tell her it can't be done.

Three possible excusese for someone who's unable to find work:

It can't be done
I can't do it
I don't want to do it


Trouble is that the majority of "bludgers" don't think like you, me or your neighbour. The biggest problem with these debates is we assume others think and deal with things in the same way. A lot of people are simply stupid, have a mental illness or brain injury, or haven't learned how to do what it takes. They don't think like your neighbour, and I'm not sure if you can force them too (especially if it's the "I can't do it").

With our obscenely high rate of child abuse in this country I wonder how many of our kids grow up with hidden brain injuries and how this affects their ability to cope with these things.

[FJRider]

... Hardly surprising that people feck off overseas once qualified. To return when they need their pension :shit:

Or NOT ... depending on how much they owe on their student loan ... :shifty:

[Ocean1]

Three possible excusese for someone who's unable to find work:

It can't be done
I can't do it
I don't want to do it


Trouble is that the majority of "bludgers" don't think like you, me or your neighbour. The biggest problem with these debates is we assume others think and deal with things in the same way. A lot of people are simply stupid, have a mental illness or brain injury, or haven't learned how to do what it takes. They don't think like your neighbour, and I'm not sure if you can force them too (especially if it's the "I can't do it").

With our obscenely high rate of child abuse in this country I wonder how many of our kids grow up with hidden brain injuries and how this affects their ability to cope with these things.


It really doesn't matter what the reason is, or how they think. If their childhood, (however long) didn't teach them what behaviour returns positive dividends then they're never going to be a contributor to the economy. Until relatively recently such people simply died, later if their family supported them, earlier if they didn't.

You can at least find the answer to your question with a modicum of effort. But answer me this: How much has the last few decades of artificial comunity-based support for the naturally non-viable degraded the average performance of the current gene pool? And how many more non-performers are now required to be supported by a correspondingly smaller portion of the population as a result?

[scumdog]

But answer me this: How much has the last few decades of artificial comunity-based support for the naturally non-viable degraded the average performance of the current gene pool? And how many more non-performers are now required to be supported by a correspondingly smaller portion of the population as a result?

I have made that comment a few times at social events.

And some people look at me as if I'm some sort of monster.

But I'm right.

[FJRider]

I have made that comment a few times at social events.

And some people look at me as if I'm some sort of monster.

But I'm right.

But the increase in the Community work sentances, awarded by the courts ... should even it out somewhat ... shouldn't it ... ??? :innocent:

[mashman]

It really doesn't matter what the reason is, or how they think. If their childhood, (however long) didn't teach them what behaviour returns positive dividends then they're never going to be a contributor to the economy. Until relatively recently such people simply died, later if their family supported them, earlier if they didn't.

Bullshit. People can change any time they like. It happens every day.



And some people look at me as if I'm some sort of monster.

But I'm right.


Tis probably a look of bewilderment.

No you're not :bleh:

[Ocean1]

Bullshit. People can change any time they like. It happens every day.


Yeah? Can you remember the last time you saw it happen?

'Cause I've never seen it happen in adults. Never.

Edit: Actually I have. As the result of a permanent head injury. P'raps there's a solution, there.

[mashman]

Yeah? Can you remember the last time you saw it happen?

'Cause I've never seen it happen in adults. Never.

Edit: Actually I have. As the result of a permanent head injury. P'raps there's a solution, there.

Me for starters, in my own sweet way :innocent:. People released from jail that don't re-offend (at least 1 friend) and become productive members of society. People who kick the bottle (not known any of those), kick habitual drug use (known a couple of those), kick gambling (guilty), kick the stock market (just not hard enough, heh), turn to god (know none of those) etc...

re:edit... That may explain some of the decisions coming out of that funny shaped building doon Wellie way

[FJRider]

Me for starters, in my own sweet way :innocent:. People released from jail that don't re-offend (at least 1 friend) and become productive members of society. People who kick the bottle (not known any of those), kick habitual drug use (known a couple of those), kick gambling (guilty), kick the stock market (just not hard enough, heh), turn to god (know none of those) etc...



Jail for most that go there ... treat it as no more than an ... "occupational hazzard"

[Ocean1]

Me for starters, in my own sweet way :innocent:. People released from jail that don't re-offend (at least 1 friend) and become productive members of society. People who kick the bottle (not known any of those), kick habitual drug use (known a couple of those), kick gambling (guilty), kick the stock market (just not hard enough, heh), turn to god (know none of those) etc...

re:edit... That may explain some of the decisions coming out of that funny shaped building doon Wellie way

So between the two of us we only just need the fingers on the other hand.

Hardly the numbers to come close to justifying social policy. Quite the reverse.

[avgas]

I had a think about this. I am wrong.
Everyone should get a benefit. I need an extra $400 so I can put tyres on the bike.

http://www.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/671944_o.gif
YOU GET A BENEFIT!
249224
YOU GET A BENEFIT!
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5042/5190646957_4cc39f60fb_o.gif
EVERYBODY GETS A BENEFIT!!!!!!!!!!

[mashman]

So between the two of us we only just need the fingers on the other hand.

Hardly the numbers to come close to justifying social policy. Quite the reverse.

ha ha haaaaaa, if only others knew of people that had turned their lives around :)

True. Social policy is a bust, pointless to even attempt such a thing... what was I thinking :woohoo:

[scissorhands]

Ummm, Rather than generally thinking of the unemployed as brain damaged or mental, which is sometimes true, many are just different, rather than with disorder.

The world criticises their difference, tells them they're retards and to fuck off, rather than making room for them to work....

Its a confounding situation, a major speed bump in our evolutionary journey. Especially as neurological population ratios are changing rapidly

ADHD and aspergers syndrome unemployed would account for half the unemployed or more. Many are capable of working but dont, because the work place is either hostile and threatening (aspergians) or boring, pedestrian and uninteresting (ADHD).

Both these disorders produce some highly intelligent individuals, who as a resource are underutilised by societies that have yet to learn to integrate their wildly different sensibilities, in a productive and harmonious way.

You guys expect everyone to think like yourselves. WRONG

Currently ADHD and aspergian kids are usually medicated or depressed to the point they suffer from side effects, shame and mental illness. Then after schooling the workplace is the same one-size-fits-all place like school, where in comparison to 'normal' peeps, their needs are different and require a different approach to integrating them.

It doesnt happen and they drop out, become medication dependant Big Pharma customers, or dope smoking hippies, meth heads etc with a chip on their shoulder. The longer they are left to languish without direction the more difficult to integrate them into the workforce.

I was a good worker, but bullying and misfitting into the prevalent neurotypical culture was often hell. Here I was a chimp, being admonished by the gorillas, for not being like them.... I put on a brave face and soldiered on against the wind. But if anyone knows anything about wind stress, or waterboarding.......its torture in the long run.....

I was extra smart and worked 72hour weeks, saved hard and bought my freedom from society, to live out my life without being beat up by my 'family and friends' for being different. How would you like it?

You guys expect everyone to look and think like yourselves. WRONG

We have odd looking faces, maybe big ears, childlike youthful expressions, and because of bullying and lack of acceptance and understanding, we develop real disorders and comorbid illness like addictions and obsessions, digestive problems, depression, anxiety and stress related conditions. Girls get prego young and drop out-solo mums

Many do well in spite of the difficulties, when home life (parenting) and other factors (money and schooling etc) are conducive

Dan Carter, Bill Gates, Bob Jones, Warren Buffet, Richard Branson

But being a freak with bad parenting, bad diet and low intelligence brought about by a dumbed down junk food society, there is usually only one way to go, if there is no one is there to point you in the right direction. Add to the mix a different race, and poverty, and things just get harder.... dont they?

'get a job you loser' needs to be replaced with: how can we integrate or provide an environment that allows these different folk to fit in and be productive

Many are sensitive and intelligent, and/or rotators with crazy obsessive energy, that can become self destructive, like a bored border collie expected to behave like labrador, or a tall person made to live in a house for midgets

My idea for NZ is for Kibbutz style villages away from the mainstream. Or like in Scandinavia they have separate urban communities, where they can feel accepted and loved, instead of like here in 'godszone'. If separation is unworkable or unacceptable, the only other solution is acceptance into current culture. That means the end of bullying, which, may realistically be in the too hard basket....

Many advanced countries have learnt to successfully direct the problematic neurodiverse into employment.

Hopefully NZ can learn to do the same, or begin natal testing and abort neurodiverse babies, like currently 91% of downs syndrome pregnancies......

or keep writing the cheques dudes

The above not only applies to problematic neurodiverse, but everyones lot could improve if the workplace culture was a more harmonious environment.

I was lucky to start working life at Fisher and Paykel. They are an excellent company with very good HR skills and management. I was protected from my neurotypical peers by conscientious wise old men with a loving hand

Try and do the same for another struggling confused young fella in a confusing and hostile world.

I may have gone on to become a manufacturer with a large company and hundreds of staff, if I had been given the right conditions to thrive, instead of struggle....

[Ocean1]

Ummm, Rather than generally thinking of the unemployed as brain damaged or mental, which is sometimes true, many are just different, rather than with disorder.

The world criticises their difference, tells them they're retards and to fuck off, rather than making room for them to work....

That's profoundly true. But the ones I'd like to fuck off are the calculating, lazy bastards that see charity as a career choice.

If I hadn't been born before the alphabet was fully developed I'd have had ADHD. I still score right at the pointy end of adult ADHD diagnostic tools. And you're right, living with different is difficult to the point of daily desperation.

So what to do?
Me? This morning I can either slit my wrists or go to work...

[shrub]

That's profoundly true. But the ones I'd like to fuck off are the calculating, lazy bastards that see charity as a career choice.

If I hadn't been born before the alphabet was fully developed I'd have had ADHD. I still score right at the pointy end of adult ADHD diagnostic tools. And you're right, living with different is difficult to the point of daily desperation.

So what to do?
Me? This morning I can either slit my wrists or go to work...

I have been diagnosed with adult ADHD and it was like someone switched on a light. Suddenly I understood why I behaved the way I did and why what was easy for most people was a huge challenge for me. When I was in my early 20s I can remember an old school friend pulling me aside and telling me that unless I changed things my future was drug addiction, prison or an early death - and probably all three. Given a lot of my mates were doing lag at the time, I knew a fair few junkies and did shit like ride pissed with no helmet, my friend wasn't being overly dramatic.

Things changed after a major crash. Around 100 mph into a (shame) outside toilet in Waihi Beach with no helmet meant over 2 months in hospital and made me stop and look long and hard at my life. Fortunately I had friends and family that got behind me and helped me pick my life up and grow up, but without them I would have slipped back into the status quo.

Since then I have had good and bad, and around 18 months ago a psychologist friend suggested I might have adult ADHD, so I went through a diagnosis process that took nearly 3 months and cost me over $600.00 including a $350.00 assessment by a psychiatrist. Fortunately I had the money because sure enough, I displayed all the classic symptoms and was put on ritalin. It was like switching on a light. I could start a task and finish it without being distracted - as an example I can now read an academic paper then summarise and critique it in a couple of hours. Before that I used to have to break papers up into sections and by sheer willpower make myself read each section, something that used to take up to a whole day to do. I can start projects around the house and finish them whereas before I used to be surrounded by half finished projects, and I now notice stuff like mess - I used to be unbelievably untidy but now I am almost a neat freak.

I count myself lucky and I do not take anything for granted. I own a nice house, a couple of bikes, a high end hi fi system etc. I have a university education, earn good money and my future is whatever I decide it is. I am in a good relationship, have 2 kids that are turning into top adults and good friends, but things could have been so very, very different. The only difference between me and someone who has been on benefits most of his life, or the guy who is in and out of prison is our backgrounds and the things we were taught because it is those things that ultimately decide what choices we make.

[Ocean1]

I'm too old to change. This:


by sheer willpower make myself

is all I've got.

It's been enough to make me successful, by my own standards.

There's a price, though.

And I'll never meet the guy I might have been.

[mashman]

I'm too old to change. This:

And I'll never meet the guy I might have been.

http://clevelandpennypincher.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/kleenex2.jpg

[shrub]

And I'll never meet the guy I might have been.

Yep, I hear you brother. All my adult life I used to beat myself up because I couldn't stick at anything for more than a nanosecond and I used to envy people who could start something and just work their way through it because I thought they were like me, only stronger and more resolute. Using my obsession with bike analogies, it's like thinking I am a crap rider because I can't keep up with my mates and then discovering my choke is out and my tyres are half flat.

I'm just lucky that I have nearly half my life ahead of me. In the year or so since I was diagnosed I have finished a book I started nearly 10 years ago (waiting to hear back from the publisher) and nearly completed a Masters degree.

[Banditbandit]

And I'll never meet the guy I might have been.


Interesting .. when I left the bad boys and finally got clean ... after a while ... I found that the person I was back then would not like the person I have become today ...

But I'd rather be the person that I am today than the person I was back then ... (and I'm still alive .. which might not be true if I hadn't changed )

[shrub]

Interesting .. when I left the bad boys and finally got clean ... after a while ... I found that the person I was back then would not like the person I have become today ...

But I'd rather be the person that I am today than the person I was back then ... (and I'm still alive .. which might not be true if I hadn't changed )

yep, I reckon if any of my old mates saw me know they would probably think I was a complete sell out, but at least I still ride a Triumph not a ricer. And like you I'm alive and have stayed out of prison, so if being a sell-out is the price, it's a price I'm glad I paid.

[avgas]

(Lots of writing - every thought of getting a job that uses all this writing?....Oh right....thats a no then)

.......I may have gone on to become a manufacturer with a large company and hundreds of staff, if I had been given the right conditions to thrive, instead of struggle....

So clearly the difference between Aspies / ADHD and the rest of us is the that unemployed aspies/adhd believe they ALONE are hard done by, and its because they alone suffer all these injustices.

Let me put it very clearly, in to a very simple sentence.

LIFE IS A BITCH FOR ALL.

Its not just you, its not because you have aspies or adhd.........its a bitch for all who try and make headroom.
And the best thing is the less you think like the rest of the world......actually the easier it is. You don't fall into the typical traps. You can't be wound up the same by the same problems.

We don't all skip into work in the morning. We all get bored. We all slack off. None of us get the right conditions to thrive......in fact most of us get conditions that create zombies :drool:
Shit I struggle to get up out of bed most mornings. I don't need John Kirwin to tell me what is wrong with my life. But I have bills to pay and mouths to feed and every now and then there is something good to look forward for.

[Banditbandit]

Yeup!!!! My wife, who is an expert on Aspergers/ADHD says I'm clearly there .. SO WHAT !!!

I think may people could easily be given alphabet soup to explain why they behave the way they do ... in the end it's meaningless ...

I've been on an uneployment benefit for three months (once in my life) .. always worked .. always paid the bills ...

You like to eat? Well work ... buy food ... pay the rent ... pay the bills ... ... I beleive there should be adequate benefits for those who need them - but not a career choice!!!!

[Oscar]

So clearly the difference between Aspies / ADHD and the rest of us is the that unemployed aspies/adhd believe they ALONE are hard done by, and its because they alone suffer all these injustices.

Let me put it very clearly, in to a very simple sentence.

LIFE IS A BITCH FOR ALL.

Its not just you, its not because you have aspies or adhd.........its a bitch for all who try and make headroom.
And the best thing is the less you think like the rest of the world......actually the easier it is. You don't fall into the typical traps. You can't be wound up the same by the same problems.

We don't all skip into work in the morning. We all get bored. We all slack off. None of us get the right conditions to thrive......in fact most of us get conditions that create zombies :drool:
Shit I struggle to get up out of bed most mornings. I don't need John Kirwin to tell me what is wrong with my life. But I have bills to pay and mouths to feed and every now and then there is something good to look forward for.


Life is a bitch for all, but for some it's harder than others.
I have a son who has Aspergers Syndrome and sometimes I despair as to what he will do with his life, and what would happen if his parents weren't there to support him. He's very intelligent, but very, very different - his lfe is always going to be harder than most peoples' and being told to "harden the fuck up" by ignorant people is never going to help.

[imdying]

yep, I reckon if any of my old mates saw me know they would probably think I was a complete sell out, but at least I still ride a Triumph not a ricer.Heh, my friends would see that the other way around for me :lol: I've got some bad news for them though, that new 675R is a peach. Mind you, it's a bit of a ricer itself...

[BoristheBiter]

Interesting .. when I left the bad boys and finally got clean ... after a while ... I found that the person I was back then would not like the person I have become today ...

But I'd rather be the person that I am today than the person I was back then ... (and I'm still alive .. which might not be true if I hadn't changed )


yep, I reckon if any of my old mates saw me know they would probably think I was a complete sell out, but at least I still ride a Triumph not a ricer. And like you I'm alive and have stayed out of prison, so if being a sell-out is the price, it's a price I'm glad I paid.

More the point, would the person you are today be mates with the person you were then?
I still see my old mates and its hard to have a conversation as our lives are so far opposite there is no common ground anymore and it becomes the same old "the old days" conversation.


Yeup!!!! My wife, who is an expert on Aspergers/ADHD says I'm clearly there .. SO WHAT !!!

I think may people could easily be given alphabet soup to explain why they behave the way they do ... in the end it's meaningless ...

I've been on an uneployment benefit for three months (once in my life) .. always worked .. always paid the bills ...

You like to eat? Well work ... buy food ... pay the rent ... pay the bills ... ... I beleive there should be adequate benefits for those who need them - but not a career choice!!!!

As an old boss said to me "don't show me problems, show me solutions" still how I work today.

[Banditbandit]

More the point, would the person you are today be mates with the person you were then?
I still see my old mates and its hard to have a conversation as our lives are so far opposite there is no common ground anymore and it becomes the same old "the old days" conversation.




I'd flip the question - would the person I was back then be mates with the person I am now .. NO!!!! Too straight!!!

I too have seen old mates ... nothing in common ... I've given up looking for old mates ..

[shrub]

More the point, would the person you are today be mates with the person you were then?
I still see my old mates and its hard to have a conversation as our lives are so far opposite there is no common ground anymore and it becomes the same old "the old days" conversation.

Pretty much bang on the money. About 10 years ago I ran into a guy who used to be one of my best mates. He still had his originals on and still had a long beard and long hair - only now thinning and grey. We went and had a beer together, and once we had talked about where different people were these days and what we were riding (him Harley, me Moto Guzzi) there wasn't much left to talk about. I looked at him and felt kind of sad, back in 81 he was a very cool guy but now he was just a fat old biker clinging to what he used to be. He still lived in the same house, still drank DB, still did a shitload of drugs and still worked as a labourer. He spent half the time moaning that "the boys" had mostly fucked off and gone straight (I'm guessing he moaned about me later that day) and nobody wanted to do the shit we used to do.

[avgas]

Life is a bitch for all, but for some it's harder than others.
I have a son who has Aspergers Syndrome and sometimes I despair as to what he will do with his life, and what would happen if his parents weren't there to support him. He's very intelligent, but very, very different - his lfe is always going to be harder than most peoples' and being told to "harden the fuck up" by ignorant people is never going to help.
Sorry you misinterpreted what I said. It was not harden the fuck up.
It was think of others, not just yourself.
The problem with people whom say they can't work is they only think of themselves. They make up every excuse in the book as to why they can't work. But never stop for a second and ask if someone has it harder than them.
What keeps me working even when I don't/can't/won't......is the fact that I know there are people out there who have it worse. I know there are people who need me to work.
Life IS a bitch for all. Do aspergers sufferers have it the worse so should be exempt?
Or do we all gain by giving them the opportunity to have a go?

Its not mental illness that holds people back. Its the attitudes of people. Most big companies now have diversity programs that actually encourage "different" people to apply. The job is basically theirs if they want it - where as the rest of us have to get it the hard way.

[Ocean1]

So clearly the difference between Aspies / ADHD and the rest of us is the that unemployed aspies/adhd believe they ALONE are hard done by, and its because they alone suffer all these injustices.

What? It’s not fair some people have better excuses? You're displaying a singularly stunning ignorance of the subject. Unemployed isn't an affliction, but I can assure you that the other two represent challenges to a normal life anyone not directly affected by would have absolutely no idea about.


for some it's harder than others.


Sorry you misinterpreted what I said. It was not harden the fuck up.

I read it the same way. Mate I get sick and fucking tired of people responding to someone saying they’ve got ADHD by suggesting that everyone’s got problems and there’s no reason those with ADHD or Aspergers shouldn’t behave normally the same as everyone else that’s having the odd bad day.

Hate your job? Change it. Don’t like the neighbourhood? Move. Understand this: these people CAN’T change their lot. And yes it fucking is harder for them, and yes that is a valid reason why there’s things they can’t do, and why some of the things they can do take a far higher than normal effort.

Seems to me like you need a bit of your own advice.


think of others, not just yourself.

[jonbuoy]

Does putting someone in a little diagnostic tick box and saying they have an XYZ´ism make things better or worse for them? Is it not just better to put them/yourself in the "a bit eccentric" (slightly mad - like we all are) bracket and get on trying to make things as normal as possible?

[Ocean1]

Does putting someone in a little diagnostic tick box and saying they have an XYZ´ism make things better or worse for them?

Yes. Demonstrably. The same way someone who's missing a limb is worse off. They're missing something too, it's just not as obvious.


Is it not just better to put them/yourself in the "a bit eccentric" (slightly mad - like we all are) bracket and get on trying to make things as normal as possible?

Also yes, capability and effort aren't related. ADHD turns out to have advantages at the creative end of any range of abilities, just don't expect them to pack their own bike for a tour.




Speaking of which...

[Usarka]

Its not mental illness that holds people back. Its the attitudes of people.


Ignoring the bog standard GP diagnosed depression (I'd probably agree with you on a lot of those cases), mental illness and/or injury can literally make people think differently (often worse).

That's like saying your bike's only running on 1/2 the cylinders and that it's attitude that it can't get up to open road speed limits for 8 hours a day.

[Banditbandit]

Does putting someone in a little diagnostic tick box and saying they have an XYZ´ism make things better or worse for them? Is it not just better to put them/yourself in the "a bit eccentric" (slightly mad - like we all are) bracket and get on trying to make things as normal as possible?

It depends on the person and the people around them ... I have seen it make things better and I have seen it make things worse ...

MY sister and her husband have wrapped their ADHD/Aspergers son in cotton wool .. and won't let him out of their sight (he's 21 ...) it's worse ...

I have seen a young woman diagnosed as Aspergers use it as an excuse for very bad behaviour .. "You can't punish me, I have Aspergers ..." much worse ...

I have also seen proper treatment and care make it much better ... My wife works with Aspergers children - the difference in their behaviour and attitutde changes markedly and they are much better for it ...

[avgas]

Ignoring the bog standard GP diagnosed depression (I'd probably agree with you on a lot of those cases), mental illness and/or injury can literally make people think differently (often worse).
That's like saying your bike's only running on 1/2 the cylinders and that it's attitude that it can't get up to open road speed limits for 8 hours a day.
Plenty of twins do the road speed ;)
Likewise I know of lots of (insert areas here) disabled people that can do things better than me.
OAB can wheelie better than me.
Fact of the matter is I am not all there upstairs and my body is not the flashiest. But its these differences that I can leverage off, or I simply buildup something else to compensate.
But everyday I meet people that have it worse than me, and seeing them do stuff......motivates me to try harder.

As for depressed people....they are still handy. They are the Critical thinkers. OCD Depressed fellows make the best safety inspectors. :eek5:

[avgas]

It depends on the person and the people around them ... I have seen it make things better and I have seen it make things worse ...
MY sister and her husband have werapped their ADHD/Aspergers son in cotton wool .. and won't let him out of their sight (he's 21 ...) it's worse ...
I have seen a young woman diagnosed as Aspergers use it as an excuse for very bad behaviour .. "You can't punish me, I have Aspergers ..." much worse ...
I have also seen proper treatment and care make it much better ... My wife works with Aspergers children - the difference in their behaviour and attitutde changes markedly and they are much better for it ...
You must spread rep......etc
But I like your thinking :yes:
Oh and pat your wife on the back for me.

[scissorhands]

Often people who are just different, but develop comorbid conditions, like stress related depression, addiction, anxiety etc. Often comorbid conditions would exist anyway, as genetic disturbances in the digestion system usually co exist anyway. However, most comorbids are due to society imposing a narrow set of rules on those who stress out, from their ability to comply to standards their minds struggle with

Society does not accept them for who they are, or appreciate their intelligent sensibilities. Dominant males in the herd prevent the retard from tainting the herd in fear that his offspring outnumber his own...

Its good that companies have programs in place for the neurodiverse, but usually its mostly working at Macdonalds.

I love the ignorant emotive ravings tho:angry2: and way you guys yell at things you dont like, like swearing at a bike that wont start:yawn:

And for the record: ADHD is very different from aspergers, in that ADHDers have abundant energy and are extreme doers, creators and go getters........ and aspies are lazy physically, and more suitable as designers, inventors and techies

retards are like immigrant workers, they can do the job as well as anyone else, its just they are not welcome by the majority

hence, teams of thai painters, vietnamese bakeries, superqualified russian engineers driving taxis.....understand? kapesh?

as an aside many immigrants are running away from non acceptance at home, often due to neurodiversity:woohoo: the neurtypical are always least likely to immigrate.....

Trying to fit in with kiwis in a typical workplace, is rife with issues for those who are different

STOP FORCING A ROUND PEG IN A SQUARE HOLE

and it will be plain sailing thenceforth

I worked all the overtime I could, took high paying short term shutdown work and 72 hour week construction sites in remote locations, and retired young. I have an overseas job waiting for me in oil and gas. I just choose to twaddle here instead, like you guys choose to do instead of work, or are you twaddling on company time????

[avgas]

Often people who are just different, but develop comorbid conditions, like stress related depression, addiction, anxiety etc. Often comorbid conditions would exist anyway, as genetic disturbances in the digestion system usually co exist anyway. However, most comorbids are due to society imposing a narrow set of rules on those who stress out, from their ability to comply to standards their minds struggle with
Society does not accept them for who they are, or appreciate their intelligent sensibilities. Dominant males in the herd prevent the retard from tainting the herd in fear that his offspring outnumber his own...
Its good that companies have programs in place for the neurodiverse, but usually its mostly working at Macdonalds.
I love the ignorant emotive ravings tho:angry2: and way you guys yell at things you dont like, like swearing at a bike that wont start
And for the record: ADHD is very different from aspergers, in that ADHDers have abundant energy and are extreme doers, creators and go getters........ and aspies are lazy physically, and more suitable as designers, inventors and techies
retards are like immigrant workers, they can do the job as well as anyone else, its just they are not welcome by the majority
hence, teams of thai painters, vietnamese bakeries, superqualified russian engineers driving taxis.....understand? kapesh?
as an aside many immigrants are running away from non acceptance at home, often due to neurodiversity:woohoo: the neurtypical are always least likely to immigrate.....
Trying to fit in with kiwis in a typical workplace, is rife with issues for those who are different
STOP FORCING A ROUND PEG IN A SQUARE HOLE
and it will be plain sailing thenceforth

Quick question. Something I asked myself some time ago when I was thinking what you are thinking now.
What if we are wrong?
What if the hole/game has changed?
What if being normal is now the problem?

When I actually looked around at the world after asking myself these questions - I soon realized that holding assumptions was a chumps game and that things and ideals that existed 10-15 years ago were dead.
Friend of mine was a veitnamese baker......he is now retired in a $1M house in the shore. Not bad for a years work. Those Russian engineers don't want engineer work here as they enjoy the time at home with their families.
On the flip side I have a straight A high flyer engineer mate. Did everything right through school, did everything right through Uni, did everything right through his graduate years. And now he is boxed in because his work won't promote him due to needing him right where he is. He can't leave for a better job because the market only pays a set amount for his specialization. And he can't think any other way. He has no mental disability except for the fact that he can't stand to rewrite his own destiny.

What if we are wrong? What if the hole is now round and the squares no longer fit.

[mashman]

What if being normal is now the problem?

Bingo imho. There's no such thing as normal, never has been, never will be, but it doesn't stop certain groups of "higher functioning" "like minded" :killingme people trying to deny that fact (and telling us that we're wrong)... and by using a financial system and paying them what their perceived worth is, shows just how fuckin stupid these people and their guage of ability really is/are! (go on, deny it so I can laugh at you)... What cracks me up is that the mantra seems to be "it's business and not personal". I call bullshit!

Frinstance... how far do you reckon this fella would have gotten in his field had his "disease" taken him before he had earned his wings?

http://www.topnews.in/files/Stephen-Hawking_0.jpg

Until you bury this utterly useless and divisive financial system and the dickheads who purport to be its masters, the country won't get its best bang for buck in terms of $$$ and the right person for the right job! But please, by all means carry on regardless, I find it highly entertaining :yes:

[Oscar]

Bingo imho. There's no such thing as normal, never has been, never will be, but it doesn't stop certain groups of "higher functioning" "like minded" :killingme people trying to deny that fact (and telling us that we're wrong)... and by using a financial system and paying them what their perceived worth is, shows just how fuckin stupid these people and their guage of ability really is/are! (go on, deny it so I can laugh at you)... What cracks me up is that the mantra seems to be "it's business and not personal". I call bullshit!

Frinstance... how far do you reckon this fella would have gotten in his field had his "disease" taken him before he had earned his wings?


Until you bury this utterly useless and divisive financial system and the dickheads who purport to be its masters, the country won't get its best bang for buck in terms of $$$ and the right person for the right job! But please, by all means carry on regardless, I find it highly entertaining :yes:

What mkes me laugh is the number of people in this country like you who bleat on about the system whilst making nebulous and/or completely unsupported ‎allegations about conspiracies, cartels and corruption.‎

Perhaps you could consider the following remedies:‎

• Run for public office or shut the fuck up.‎
• Become politically active or shut the fuck up.‎
• Come up with a scintilla of evidence for your fetid ravings or shut the fuck ‎up.‎

You see, the fact that you may be one or all of : ‎
• a loser ‎
• socially inept ‎
• stupid ‎
• clinically insane ‎
Is not the fault of the system, it's your problem. ‎

Of course it may be that an overwhelming proportion of the population is wrong, and ‎you alone are right. In that case feel free to put your case to the entire country and be ‎hailed as a Messiah…‎

[Banditbandit]

‎

Of course it may be that an overwhelming proportion of the population is wrong, and ‎you alone are right. In that case feel free to put your case to the entire country and be ‎hailed as a Messiah…‎

Or nailed to the nearest cross ...

[Banditbandit]

Often people who are just different, but develop comorbid conditions, like stress related depression, addiction, anxiety etc. Often comorbid conditions would exist anyway, as genetic disturbances in the digestion system usually co exist anyway. However, most comorbids are due to society imposing a narrow set of rules on those who stress out, from their ability to comply to standards their minds struggle with





I know .... I know ... You read Foucault last week ... I'll bet you got an A ...

[imdying]

STOP FORCING A ROUND PEG IN A SQUARE HOLEBlah blah blah, yet again.

If I had a whole heap of usless round pegs I'd be building a new shower block and digging a big pit.

<img src="http://www.celan-projekt.de/bilder/massengrab-bergen-belsen.gif" />

[avgas]

I know .... I know ... You read Foucault last week ... I'll bet you got an A ...
Because nothing has changed in the world since he passed away :facepalm:

[shrub]

Of course it may be that an overwhelming proportion of the population is wrong, and ‎you alone are right. In that case feel free to put your case to the entire country and be ‎hailed as a Messiah…‎

Or could it be that an overwhelming proportion of the population think what they're told to think, say what they're told to say and do what they're told to do? Just like we have done since Ugg and Ogg first got together and formed a tribe. Once we believed that if we didn't give the shaman a nice, crisp virgin to enjoy on the full moon we would all become impotent, then we believed that if we didn't go to church regular and give buckets of cash to the priests God would smite us down and send us to hell. Now we believe that if we don't cut benefits, strip the public service and give the rich tax cuts we will never be able to afford that new TV.

We have always believed what our priests tell us and we always will.

[Oscar]

Or could it be that an overwhelming proportion of the population think what they're told to think, say what they're told to say and do what they're told to do? Just like we have done since Ugg and Ogg first got together and formed a tribe. Once we believed that if we didn't give the shaman a nice, crisp virgin to enjoy on the full moon we would all become impotent, then we believed that if we didn't go to church regular and give buckets of cash to the priests God would smite us down and send us to hell. Now we believe that if we don't cut benefits, strip the public service and give the rich tax cuts we will never be able to afford that new TV.

We have always believed what our priests tell us and we always will.

Or it could be that the overwhelming proportion of the population is actually ‎happy with their lot (ref. the recent opinion poll on the subject).‎

Whereas I’m quite happy to debate any part of your last statement regarding ‎economic and social policy, I think that accusing the general population of being ‎under the thrall of voodoo economics or some sort of consumer cargo cult is ‎paternalistic and arrogant. ‎

[mashman]

What mkes me laugh is the number of people in this country like you who bleat on about the system whilst making nebulous and/or completely unsupported ‎allegations about conspiracies, cartels and corruption.‎

Perhaps you could consider the following remedies:‎

• Run for public office or shut the fuck up.‎
• Become politically active or shut the fuck up.‎
• Come up with a scintilla of evidence for your fetid ravings or shut the fuck ‎up.‎

You see, the fact that you may be one or all of : ‎
• a loser ‎
• socially inept ‎
• stupid ‎
• clinically insane ‎
Is not the fault of the system, it's your problem. ‎

Of course it may be that an overwhelming proportion of the population is wrong, and ‎you alone are right. In that case feel free to put your case to the entire country and be ‎hailed as a Messiah…‎

:rofl:@ conspiracy, cartel and corruption... and what makes you so sure that none of that exists?

As for your remedies

• I wouldn't waste my energy, any more so than I currently do here, by having any dealings with public office on their terms. And as they won't meet me on mine...
• Politically active... hmmmm, nope, I'd rather storm the castle and start moving "us" forwards, but unfortunately I have to consider people such as yourself.
• What evidence do you require for which particular raving?

And I most certainly won't shut the fuck up. You shut the fuck up :bleh:

I'll take all of those labels, and more, wanker, idiot, retard, fuckwit etc... but what does that have to do with my ravings? :facepalm:, sorry, forgot your need to play the man not the ball.

No, it is the fault of the system and those who guard it so fervently without any care, or indeed knowing full well that it leads to poverty, death, corrpution, etc... I pity the fools who don't believe that it is the system, and those who wield it like a toy, that is/are at fault.

As we all know, I am not the vehicle for conveying such a "plan", although I'll throw my ideas in if required... I'm not the only one that sees the undeniable sense in it. It'd certainly shut the fuckin whining up (mine included) in regards to beneficiaries, bludgers, rip off merchants, all but erradicate crime, it would erradicate poverty, promote competition, innovation, everyone would have an even playing field at the start, justice may well actually be served for a change and that's just the tip of the iceberg... but why wouldn't anybody want anything like that? Would it make poor Oscar feel less special?

[avgas]

Or could it be that an overwhelming proportion of the population think what they're told to think, say what they're told to say and do what they're told to do? Just like we have done since Ugg and Ogg first got together and formed a tribe. Once we believed that if we didn't give the shaman a nice, crisp virgin to enjoy on the full moon we would all become impotent, then we believed that if we didn't go to church regular and give buckets of cash to the priests God would smite us down and send us to hell. Now we believe that if we don't cut benefits, strip the public service and give the rich tax cuts we will never be able to afford that new TV.

We have always believed what our priests tell us and we always will.
Tis a 2 way street though.

[Winston001]

Or could it be that an overwhelming proportion of the population think what they're told to think, say what they're told to say and do what they're told to do? .....

Now we believe that if we don't cut benefits, strip the public service and give the rich tax cuts we will never be able to afford that new TV.

We have always believed what our priests tell us and we always will.

I think society is much more complex than all of us being under some collective illusion. Many many people do not take the time to think deeply about social and economic values, but that is because they are just busy enough getting by. Paying the mortgage and bills, worrying about the children, hoping for a holiday soon in Oz with the cheap fares.

I also think the vast majority of New Zealanders are satisfied with life in this country.

As for the "priests" - that usually translates as "wise men". Who are respected in all cultures. We all recognise even if we won't say it, that some folk are smarter than others. We respect experts - whether its making an excellent stone spear-head or leading a group. Sometimes we pick the wrong priest - Adolph Hitler, but mostly the right ones. T'were otherwise humans would have died out aeons ago.

[Oscar]

I'll take all of those labels, and more, wanker, idiot, retard, fuckwit etc... but what does that have to do with my ravings? :facepalm:, sorry, forgot your need to play the man not the ball.



The only time I feel the need to play the man is when the man in question keeps posting fanciful horseshit that has no basis in fact.

For example, this is straight out of the "Do it yourself Propaganda kit": '..bury this utterly useless and divisive financial system and the dickheads who purport to be its masters..". What does that actually mean? Did you find it in an issue of Pravda from the sixities?

[mashman]

The only time I feel the need to play the man is when the man in question keeps posting fanciful horseshit that has no basis in fact.

For example, this is straight out of the "Do it yourself Propaganda kit": '..bury this utterly useless and divisive financial system and the dickheads who purport to be its masters..". What does that actually mean? Did you find it in an issue of Pravda from the sixities?

Oh I see, you don't see something as fact so instead of posting an example, as you just did (imagine my surprise :shifty:), you start with a personal attack... which is emotionally ignored I'm afraid :yes:. anyhoo...

The financial system is divisive, FACT, with crap coming from all ends of the spectrum, jealousy, greed and generally mean spirited attitudes towards those who have and those who have not. The dickheads exist (we see some of them on telly). They perpetuate the system by not coming up with, or even offering, ANY viable alternative, not one, not a sausage, but moreover spend all of their time making and lobbying for stupid laws that suit the money makers... all without dealing with any of the root causes. If they're that smart and have "our" welfare at heart, humanity wouldn't be in such a state, FACT.

No propaganda there in my eyes, just a few facts wrapped up in a sentence (I made it up) that highlights the root cause of just about every problem that exists in society today.

[shrub]

Or it could be that the overwhelming proportion of the population is actually ‎happy with their lot (ref. the recent opinion poll on the subject).‎ ‎

Of course they're happy, most of us in the Western world live a life of unprecedented ease and luxury which means we have no need to challenge the status quo, and when we're forced to look at our world critically we become very angry and upset because something is rotten in the state of Denmark, and we are frightened that we will lose what we have.



Whereas I’m quite happy to debate any part of your last statement regarding ‎economic and social policy

Please do.


I think that accusing the general population of being ‎under the thrall of voodoo economics or some sort of consumer cargo cult is ‎paternalistic and arrogant.

me, arrogant? Never! :shit: Or maybe I'm cynical? I'm certainly very sceptical of the munificence and wisdom of Deal Leader and his cronies and don't share the acceptance of the veracity of everything that the National Party claims to be wise and good that is so common on this site.

[scumdog]

Of course they're happy, most of us in the Western world live a life of unprecedented ease and luxury which means we have no need to challenge the status quo,..

Effin-oath.
And why not??

[scissorhands]

Gonna jump on the bike and get a latte and muffin in town:scooter:

[Winston001]

Of course they're happy, most of us in the Western world live a life of unprecedented ease and luxury which means we have no need to challenge the status quo, and when we're forced to look at our world critically we become very angry and upset because something is rotten in the state of Denmark, and we are frightened that we will lose what we have.



I was going to make a Python joke about bloody vikings but what you say deserves thinking about. :niceone:

The Wall Street protests and riots in Greece are signatures of unease. Rainman has postulated that globalisation implies acceptance of unemployment and welfare in Western economies. We lose jobs but get cheap clothes and electronics.

I don't agree but perhaps he's correct as we run up against a wall of over-population and limited food. Until now, wealthy societies have provided new jobs for their displaced but maybe thats no longer possible.

[scumdog]

I Rainman has postulated that globalisation implies acceptance of unemployment and welfare in Western economies. We lose jobs but get cheap clothes and electronics.

I don't agree but perhaps he's correct as we run up against a wall of over-population and limited food. Until now, wealthy societies have provided new jobs for their displaced but maybe thats no longer possible.

Too true.

As the developing countries (where no fair-headed people are natives) get financially stronger and want/expect more we will slowly slide down the standard of living shute.

And just to 'sink-the-slipper-in' - the whole world is outstripping its non-renewable resources and there's too many of us humans aboard this earth.

So enjoy the planet as it is now people - your grand-children certainly won't be able to.