How to get junior road racers noticed for MotoGP?

[gav]

Posted this as a reply in another thread, but thought it might be worth a seperate thread to see what people think.

OK, was giving this some thought today. I'm not sure that the Red Bull Rookie is necessarily the best route to take, esp for a kiwi. I wonder if a young Valentino, Marco Sic, Ben Spies or even Kevin Schwantz would make the final selection from the criteria that they are looking for eg another Dani Pedrosa (the smaller the better).
I think the new Moto3 class should be where a Team NZ/Kiwi should be aimed at.
Certainly the first year with NSF250R and maybe a home brewed chassis should be worth exploring. NZ supposedly leads the world in carbon fibre if you listen to some of the yachting waffle. BSL racing tried 500GP and effectively got burned with the change in rules to unleaded fuel. How about a BSL framed Moto 3 bike? Support from the motorcycle community but also how about tapping some of the money that was being spent on Team NZ in the A1GP series? With contacts at all levels of MotoGP such as Peter Clifford, Mike Webb, Simon Crafer, Graham Crosby, Bob Toomey, Shaun Harris etc just to name a few, surely a NZ team could be run on the cheap for Moto3? Even if it just meant running in the Spanish champs and as many Euro GP's as you could get an entry too. Moto2 with level engines, again could be a class that Team NZ could try and run in. Even if it wasnt aimed just for one rider, so that riders like Jake Lewis, Avalon Biddle, the Hoogie boys, Cam Jones, Seth Deveruax, Jaden Hassen etc could be given a taste of racing in Europe even if its just for a race or two? Also the support mechanics etc maybe able to get experience to get noticed by some of the bigger teams and hence get a career or a foot in the door?
I'm sure a team could be run at a fraction of the cost that the America Cup yachties cost to run?
Oh well, it sure would be cool to see an all black bike with a large silver fern racing in GP's huh?

[steveyb]

I have two words:

PureBlack Racing

The model exists.

[Bender]

Cheaply run grand prix team? What do you cut from the budget to get to a fraction of the cost?

The thinking is wrong. You have to start with budget and lots of it or you'll always be chasing money and work-arounds to cobble things together.

Look at Grant Dalton's model for Team NZ. Nothing cheap about it, not a budget operation. It competes as one of the top teams internationally and is always on the podium, more often on the top step. In 2003, when Alinghi defeated NZ to take the America's Cup, we saw a New Zealand team kneecapped by lack of budget. The boat nearly sank and then it broke. Game over.

I'd start by talking to him about how to raise sponsorship - he's a keen motor racer as well and has competed in a Nissan and a TVR (not sure if he still is, but he certainly was).

[CHOPPA]

We could start by raising $60k for me to compete in the Spanish CEV for a bit of research and development........

Seriously though there is already a kiwi running a team in the CEV that is offering Moto 3 rides. 100k would cover everything

[gixerracer]

We could start by raising $60k for me to compete in the Spanish CEV for a bit of research and development........

Seriously though there is already a kiwi running a team in the CEV that is offering Moto 3 rides. 100k would cover everything

Yea but who is it? Most second riders get stitched up in these rides. Number 1 rider gewts all the good stuff and poor old number 2 comes along paying for his ride and gets what ever is left under the bench in the corner.
To get a ride for that money 60k kiwi? seems very very cheap tell them 80k and we will both go lol

[jellywrestler]

tell them 80k and we will both go lol
Who will be the chicken and who will be the rooster then eh?

[CHOPPA]

Yea but who is it? Most second riders get stitched up in these rides. Number 1 rider gewts all the good stuff and poor old number 2 comes along paying for his ride and gets what ever is left under the bench in the corner.
To get a ride for that money 60k kiwi? seems very very cheap tell them 80k and we will both go lol

It is very cheap, im seriously considering it. Cant go to far wrong mate, new bike all new gear I have seen the shopping list and the class spec and its spot on. Includes absolutly everything except getting myself to the track. Accomodation is included, entry fees, mechanic bla bla bla.

The cool thing is that its about a 20k deposit before you start then the rest is devided up per round. 7 rounds. 1st round starts a couple of weeks after our nats finish

[slowpoke]

It's an absolute waste of time and effort unless we can start developing riders here first. At the moment there is no cohesion between clubs, between clubs and MNZ, no defined development path or even half decent competition for promising young racers. There is also very little outside investment/sponsorship as result of the low profile of our sport so Mum/Dad and/or Rider are soon outta money and outta the sport. Until these things change you are pissing in the wind.

Dreaming of a kiwi team or rider on the world stage is all very well, but there needs to be wholesale changes in the sport here, building blocks in place to develop the sport and develop riders to reach the goal. Without a plan and good execution of the plan you are just hoping for the best which isn't going to get you very far. Our national junior competition is barely comparable to club level in Spain/Europe so to pitch an underdeveloped club level racer against the international level racers over there and expect good results is just unrealistic.

Money alone is not going to fix the problem. Even if you come up with a $1million it does nothing to address the development and competion gap between Europe and here. They have large high quality fields racing each other week in week out while we are struggling to come up with double figures on a GP125 grid at our 5 national rounds.

I'm not being negative or pessimistic, I'm just being realistic and pointing out what you're up against. We need to fix things here before we go looking further afield. You may just find 1 freak who can jump in the deep end and start swimming but surely the goal needs to be to raise the standard of the sport and riders as a whole so we can produce world class riders on a regular basis?

[ellipsis]

It's an absolute waste of time and effort unless we can start developing riders here first. At the moment there is no cohesion between clubs, between clubs and MNZ, no defined development path or even half decent competition for promising young racers. There is also very little outside investment/sponsorship as result of the low profile of our sport so Mum/Dad and/or Rider are soon outta money and outta the sport. Until these things change you are pissing in the wind.

Dreaming of a kiwi team or rider on the world stage is all very well, but there needs to be wholesale changes in the sport here, building blocks in place to develop the sport and develop riders to reach the goal. Without a plan and good execution of the plan you are just hoping for the best which isn't going to get you very far. Our national junior competition is barely comparable to club level in Spain/Europe so to pitch an underdeveloped club level racer against the international level racers over there and expect good results is just unrealistic.

Money alone is not going to fix the problem. Even if you come up with a $1million it does nothing to address the development and competion gap between Europe and here. They have large high quality fields racing each other week in week out while we are struggling to come up with double figures on a GP125 grid at our 5 national rounds.

I'm not being negative or pessimistic, I'm just being realistic and pointing out what you're up against. We need to fix things here before we go looking further afield. You may just find 1 freak who can jump in the deep end and start swimming but surely the goal needs to be to raise the standard of the sport and riders as a whole so we can produce world class riders on a regular basis?

...true...which takes us back to the old story of our sport being looked at as a whole...not the nationals being the be all and end all of our sport...inter club and inter island co-operation and communication...which i have alluded to before as the stopper of our progress...a big ask, somewhat like herding cats...when and only when that happens will we even know what we have...just the polarity of the three or four clubs in Chch aligning their energies to work together seems like a big ask...even tho at times it seems like we are...an inter club competion leading onto regional and inter island stuff, much like the other sports that thrive is one option...getting joe public to be involved and following their team...it could be done...

[CHOPPA]

...true...which takes us back to the old story of our sport being looked at as a whole...not the nationals being the be all and end all of our sport...inter club and inter island co-operation and communication...which i have alluded to before as the stopper of our progress...a big ask, somewhat like herding cats...when and only when that happens will we even know what we have...just the polarity of the three or four clubs in Chch aligning their energies to work together seems like a big ask...even tho at times it seems like we are...an inter club competion leading onto regional and inter island stuff, much like the other sports that thrive is one option...getting joe public to be involved and following their team...it could be done...

Interclub teams would be fun

[Shaun]

It's an absolute waste of time and effort unless we can start developing riders here first. At the moment there is no cohesion between clubs, between clubs and MNZ, no defined development path or even half decent competition for promising young racers. There is also very little outside investment/sponsorship as result of the low profile of our sport so Mum/Dad and/or Rider are soon outta money and outta the sport. Until these things change you are pissing in the wind.

Dreaming of a kiwi team or rider on the world stage is all very well, but there needs to be wholesale changes in the sport here, building blocks in place to develop the sport and develop riders to reach the goal. Without a plan and good execution of the plan you are just hoping for the best which isn't going to get you very far. Our national junior competition is barely comparable to club level in Spain/Europe so to pitch an underdeveloped club level racer against the international level racers over there and expect good results is just unrealistic.

Money alone is not going to fix the problem. Even if you come up with a $1million it does nothing to address the development and competion gap between Europe and here. They have large high quality fields racing each other week in week out while we are struggling to come up with double figures on a GP125 grid at our 5 national rounds.

I'm not being negative or pessimistic, I'm just being realistic and pointing out what you're up against. We need to fix things here before we go looking further afield. You may just find 1 freak who can jump in the deep end and start swimming but surely the goal needs to be to raise the standard of the sport and riders as a whole so we can produce world class riders on a regular basis?








Come up with an intelligent plan then Slowpoke, you are very good at high lighing the so called problems within our sport, BUT where is your intelligent plan of how to fix the problem

It is to easy o just sit back and knock everything Mt

[Shaun]

MY PLAN TO AID THIS PATH


A consortium needs putting together ASAP similar to what was done for Scott Dixon

10 investors, $10K each with a BUY out clause for the rider

My choice of rider would be Glen Skatchill, WHY, He is bloody talented and can ride a bike side ways if need be

Now go get the investers Slowpoke Plase mate!!!!


Glen would show the world that there are still fast KIWI riders here, and that will open doors in he future for up coming young riders.

We are NEVER going to be able to pretend to be Spain or Italy or Europe when it comes to the support for the young riders

[SWERVE]

It's an absolute waste of time and effort unless we can start developing riders here first. At the moment there is no cohesion between clubs, between clubs and MNZ, no defined development path or even half decent competition for promising young racers. There is also very little outside investment/sponsorship as result of the low profile of our sport so Mum/Dad and/or Rider are soon outta money and outta the sport. Until these things change you are pissing in the wind.
Not a complete waste of time (as some have proven) however there does need to be a more defined career path within the sport as a whole. not only would this make it more attractive to begin with but would also help when approaching organisations /etc for funding.


Dreaming of a kiwi team or rider on the world stage is all very well, but there needs to be wholesale changes in the sport here, building blocks in place to develop the sport and develop riders to reach the goal. Without a plan and good execution of the plan you are just hoping for the best which isn't going to get you very far. Our national junior competition is barely comparable to club level in Spain/Europe so to pitch an underdeveloped club level racer against the international level racers over there and expect good results is just unrealistic.
No need to re-invent the wheel in NZ..... the EJC has got all these bases covered already. We just gotta get riders there........ Jake & Dan have proven that talent (which nz has plenty) will succeed in this series. Yes it costs money to get there but thats were the money side stops. Its then down to tiny set-up changes to the bike and LOTS of rider ability.
The organisers have really got their shit together with this and have made it a must see it its first year. It will be "The series to be in". And its not a step backwards if the rider has already made a jump up to bigger bikes.......... 2011 champ Matt Davies (Aus) has been racing CEV / BSB/ UK 125 for 3 yrs with some good results.... but winning the EJC has catapaulted him into the limelight beyond the teams/parents belief.The package for a race series includes training camps / one on one tuition & advice /bikes / hospitality / equipment and above all access and showcasing to the race world and those who watch. And at Eu 18.950 (approx $40,000nz) it is far less than the $700,000 quoted on here for a european race series.


Money alone is not going to fix the problem. Even if you come up with a $1million it does nothing to address the development and competion gap between Europe and here. They have large high quality fields racing each other week in week out while we are struggling to come up with double figures on a GP125 grid at our 5 national rounds.
Correct! Money wont magically fix it.... but will help a lot:shifty: Best proving/finishing ground for up-coming youngsters is buckets/streetsock........ low/even powered bikes and huge grids means only talant & determination will get you to the front. And with a one make series with all bikes prepared by the organising body its racecraft an ability that is being sought not big budgets or egos.

I'm not being negative or pessimistic, I'm just being realistic and pointing out what you're up against. We need to fix things here before we go looking further afield. You may just find 1 freak who can jump in the deep end and start swimming but surely the goal needs to be to raise the standard of the sport and riders as a whole so we can produce world class riders on a regular basis?

Correct we do need to get our own house in order. So we can continue to send young talant across the globe. But there are opprtunites out there already run by people with no hidden agendas ..... only to bring young talant into world class racing. (another thing this country needs to improve on)

After having spent some time talking to the EJC organisers and witnessing the fantastic show they have created, i am trying to call in a few favours from over the years to help facilitate sending some more youngsters on this journey. Getting pretty used to getting turned down now .............. but aint gonna stop trying no time soon.

Generally agree with your post mate.

[SWERVE]

Interclub teams would be fun
+1 have always thought this

[CHOPPA]

Correct we do need to get our own house in order. So we can continue to send young talant across the globe. But there are opprtunites out there already run by people with no hidden agendas ..... only to bring young talant into world class racing. (another thing this country needs to improve on)

After having spent some time talking to the EJC organisers and witnessing the fantastic show they have created, i am trying to call in a few favours from over the years to help facilitate sending some more youngsters on this journey. Getting pretty used to getting turned down now .............. but aint gonna stop trying no time soon.

Generally agree with your post mate.

I could be wrong but im not sure if I was a parent spending big $$$ that id pay for my kid to do the EJC. You have been there so you will tell me different. I know its putting there names out there in a big way that is good but if I were a team owner I dont think id recruit from that series. IMO the ninja is a great start out class because its easy to ride them at there maximum potential so the riders are not really challenging there limits. Once they start getting onto proper race bikes like Moto 2, 3 Supersport and Superbike then show they can ride those bikes to the limit thats when I see the offers to come in.

I hope im wrong because it would be fantastic if Daniel and Jake got some good rides! I would think that the money would be better spent getting them on a 600 in NZ at 16 then buying a ride?

There is never a right way or a wrong way though, just get on to it asap!! 15 to 18 year olds is where its at. Thats why I keep bleating on about MX kids is because they already have advanced bike skills way before there old enough to even start racing streetstock. Bucket racing and MX is where I would be training my young fella if he wants to ride

[Billy]

It's an absolute waste of time and effort unless we can start developing riders here first. At the moment there is no cohesion between clubs, between clubs and MNZ, no defined development path or even half decent competition for promising young racers. There is also very little outside investment/sponsorship as result of the low profile of our sport so Mum/Dad and/or Rider are soon outta money and outta the sport. Until these things change you are pissing in the wind.

Dreaming of a kiwi team or rider on the world stage is all very well, but there needs to be wholesale changes in the sport here, building blocks in place to develop the sport and develop riders to reach the goal. Without a plan and good execution of the plan you are just hoping for the best which isn't going to get you very far. Our national junior competition is barely comparable to club level in Spain/Europe so to pitch an underdeveloped club level racer against the international level racers over there and expect good results is just unrealistic.


Absolutely right Spud,

The good folks at MCC worked that out quite sometime ago and are starting too reap the benefits,Until the clubs from the pig island start following their lead and stop catering to post classic and 30+ year olds to fill the grids instead of promoting and coaching the juniors at an acceptable level,Until that changes and the experts stop interferring with the systems already in place the future isnt likely to get any brighter,Theres a good set up in place,It just needs everybody to use it instead of promoting their own interests.Once everybodys on the same page and working together it can then be extended to include the 125GP machines and so on!!!

The roadrace commission at MNZ will do everything it can too help implement a junior development program,But its up to the clubs to foster the sport by supporting such projects,Is your club doing this?If you dont think they are,Approach them and ask why,If that doesnt work,Then get yourself on the committee and do whatever it takes to change things,But be warned,Its not as easy as typing on a computer keyboard.

[CHOPPA]

Absolutely right Spud,

The good folks at MCC worked that out quite sometime ago and are starting too reap the benefits,Until the clubs from the pig island start following their lead and stop catering to post classic and 30+ year olds to fill the grids instead of promoting and coaching the juniors at an acceptable level,Until that changes and the experts stop interferring with the systems already in place the future isnt likely to get any brighter,Theres a good set up in place,It just needs everybody to use it instead of promoting their own interests.Once everybodys on the same page and working together it can then be extended to include the 125GP machines and so on!!!

The roadrace commission at MNZ will do everything it can too help implement a junior development program,But its up to the clubs to foster the sport by supporting such projects,Is your club doing this?If you dont think they are,Approach them and ask why,If that doesnt work,Then get yourself on the committee and do whatever it takes to change things,But be warned,Its not as easy as typing on a computer keyboard.

I have to agree regarding MCC, there events are always top notch as well. Im really looking forward to the national round

[slowpoke]

Come up with an intelligent plan then Slowpoke, you are very good at high lighing the so called problems within our sport, BUT where is your intelligent plan of how to fix the problem

It is to easy o just sit back and knock everything Mt

Sorry if I came across negative mate, but we have to be realistic, co-ordinated and focused, things we aren't at the moment. By focused I mean decide what we want to achieve. My opinion is that improving the local scene will benefit everyone and will help produce more and better young racers. Just plucking out one young talent and throwing lots of money at them doesn't help produce more young talent or help everyone else. Which is why I said we need to fix things at home before worrying too much about helping out one individual.

Want some ideas? Personally I don't think we can compete with the GP125/Moto3 racer production lines in Europe and should concentrate on fostering a path through the ranks of Supersport/Superbike. We've got Oz on our doorstep, with great levels of competition, world class tracks, and proven path's to WSBK/AMA/BSB/IDM/MotoGP etc, and the ability to live/work in NZ and not have to relocate.....yet it's virtually ignored. If you can win there you have proven you can be competitive almost anywhere.

I'd explore ways of rewarding our championship winners with an entry to an ASBK event, give people something tangible to race for. Maybe reward the winners with a fully paid trip and partially/proportionately subsidise the place getters?

I'd establish a clear direction and mentoring through the ranks, with the aim of concentrating the best riders into Supersport/Superbike rather spread across everything with 2 wheels as they are at the moment.

Yup, guys like Sketchy are freaks but success on a 600 doesn't carry half the weight of success on a Superbike when talking to overseas teams so they need to be encouraged/aided in making the transition ASAP to continue climbing the learning curve.

Instead we have the situation where Scott Moir/Jamie Rajek, a very promising team who could really go places, rock up to a club event with their new superbike and get half the track time of Joe Citizen going nowhere on his/her post-classic/BEAR's/600. Craig Shirriffs, Choppa, Sketchy, Rhys Holmes were at the same meeting and everyone could have benefited from the competition and time on track with high quality opposition....instead Craig and Scott are left pulling their pud's 'cos they are riding dirty jappa's. What screwed up priorities and what a way to reward the distributors backing our NZSBK series.

Easy to just sit back and knock everything? Here's a copy of a letter I sent out to AMCC, PMCC, Vic Club, MNZ, Kiwirider magazine back in June highlighting an issue with some suggestions to correct it. Lets just say the response has been fairly underwhelming (only Greg Percival from AMCC gave any substantial feedback)....with absolutely no repsonse at all from MNZ Road Racing Commission. They say choose you battles, and as an old slow late starter with no connections or hi profile or time to devote to it I can't win this one, so I've pretty much given up on club racing and just wait for summer.

Hello fellow motorcycle racing enthusiasts,

Below is an open letter addressing an issue that has long caused me frustration....and which will no doubt have many of you rolling your eyes, lol.

I apologise in advance if it causes any offence, for none was intended. I am more than happy to acknowledge that you guys are the life blood of our sport, with your actions speaking louder than any words, actually doing what others only talk about. What follows in no way takes away from what you are doing and what you have achieved, it is simply highlighting one area in which I think a step change can be made to eventually improve things for everyone. Admittedly it may take some time for the improvements to filter down but if there is an opportunity for improvement my feeling is we should take it.

Any consideration of the matter and feedback would be very much appreciated.


An open letter to New Zealand Motorcycle Road Racing Enthusiasts

Picture this: The All Blacks are gone…….consigned to history……extinct. We are reduced to a struggling national competition with barely a single young player capable of playing at international level. And nobody seems the least bit concerned.

That’s the situation we find ourselves in if you apply the analogy to the New Zealand road racing scene. Think of (in no particular order) Anderson, Molloy, Newcombe, Perry, Turner, Crosby, Hiscock, Woodley, Holden, Avant, Scott, Crafar, Slight, Stroud, Anstey and we could field a pretty handy First XV over the years.

So why has no new talent made the transition on to the World stage for the best part of a decade? More?

Consider that the recent Nationals resulted in the 3 premier classes of Superbike, Supersport and F3 being won by riders over the age of 40 or close to it, and all of whom were past champions, not new talent. Unfortunately this has become the norm not the exception and contrasts markedly with most if not all other countries intense competition forging new champions on a regular basis. Most concerning has been the Superbike class, the stepping stone to an international career, which has long been dominated by the same NZ veterans with no young (sorry Craig) challenger getting within a GSXR’s roar of the Stroud or Bugden juggernauts. Even more worrying is that very few young guns have even tried, thanks to the way nearly all grassroots clubs actively discourage entries into the F1/Superbike class.

Except no clubs seem the least bit worried. Thanks to the cross entry rules most classes except F1 have the luxury of being able to enter 1 and sometimes 2 extra classes, thereby doubling and tripling their track time. So at the recent Victoria M/C Club Winter series round F1 were given the grand total of 25 minutes race time over the course of a day’s racing, while most other classes had the opportunity to do twice and sometimes 3 times that for the cost of minimal cross entry fees. So a 25 year old grey import 400 for example gets twice the track time of the latest 1000cc "halo" bikes from the manufacturers supporting our National Championship. Who in their right mind would race a superbike under that sort of track time disadvantage? And we wonder why spectators and sponsors are so hard to come by?

So at one end of the spectrum we have guys like "Billy" Billington and Pete Jones putting in superhuman efforts to foster young competitors only for many clubs to remove any incentive to progress to the upper echelons once they show some promise. Why would a talented young 600 pilot want to step up to a superbike and effectively halve their track time? How do we expect them to excel under those conditions? Surely we should be enabling competition and progression through all levels of road racing to allow our young talent to compete against and learn from our few remaining local international quality riders? As it stands, the class in our superbike field is concentrated in veterans only an injury or bowls club invitation away from retirement. That the guard will inevitably change with so few riders exposed to the skill and experience of these guys (or the fast "imports" we’ve had over the last few years) is a huge opportunity gone begging.

I am really struggling to think of another sport where NZ is so drastically under represented on the world stage. Even sports outside the main stream such as kayaking, triathlon, rowing, motocross, yachting, cycling, surfing, various car racing disiplines etc etc all manage some international participation and often produce outstanding results. One can imagine the soul searching within any of those camps if this representation and/or success disappeared…….yet no alarm bells seem to be ringing within the road racing community.

So I am writing this open letter in an attempt to highlight what is an extremely distorted NZ racing landscape. I love seeing fast young overseas riders like Chris Seaton, Gareth Jones, Dave Johnson, Damian Cudlin, Chris Peris etc coming to NZ but watching their international careers take off is bittersweet when it highlights our own lack of rider development. Not to mention the opportunities grasped by others that seem outside the realms of possibility for our local talent.

So what to do? Well, considering our nearest neighbour Australia sends an endless stream of young champions on to the World stage we could do a lot worse than to look at the simple systems they have in place. They are obviously doing something very right, as last weekend: Stoner won MotoGP, several riders competed in WSB, Parkes won WSS, Staring competed in World Superstock1000 and Metcher came second in World Superstock600. I could go on about their BSB, AMA, IDM, IOM champions/competitors in various categories but I think we all know their success far outweighs their size.

Alternatively, Motorcycling Canterbury seems to be alone in bucking the general trend and doing good things with their race program (senior and junior capacity based classes that give an equitable amount of track time for all) and has solid competition across the board. It’s not rocket science, doesn’t have to cost a cent, and doesn’t need to be overcomplicated, but something needs to be done to restore the balance. But, as things stand right now, most of our grassroots clubs are exacerbating the problem and unintentionally making a mockery of MNZ’s dictum of "keeping motorcycling safe, fun, and fair."

Thank you in advance for any consideration you give to the matter.

Forwarded to:

Victoria Motorcycle Club

Auckland Motorcycle Club

Pacific Motorcycle Club

MNZ Road Race Comission

Kiwirider magazine

[Billy]

Well Spud,

Its the clubs you need to be pestering not the roadrace commission at MNZ,Their job as volunteers doing up to 20 hours of unpaid work per week,Is to oversee the running of the discipline and TRY and keep everybody happy and on the same page.

Its the clubs you should be approaching,As its their job to foster the sport as shown by the South Islanders and dare I say it,One letter is hardly a huge effort and you have to admit,It was a bit long and drawn out,Put yourself in their position,Again volunteers and with a huge workload.Best attack would be at the coalface or on a committee.

[gav]

Some interesting thoughts raised here, good to see.
Are the days of a privateer team driving to GP loaded up in van really gone? Pretty sure the Moto3 is a single bike rule, one bike, spare motor, parts etc, racing as many European GP's the team could get a start at. Catching the odd Spanish national race, some more in Italy, maybe the odd BSB wildcard?
Anyone remember Brent Jones and Richard Scott doing the privateer thing?
Maybe the kiwi team could pick up some experience doing testing duties for some of the other teams? Just like Scotty did with Lucky Strike Yamaha, helping out with tyre testing and picking up the odd race as a fill in for Mike Baldwin.
Even if it meant a different rider going over every month or so, and getting a chance to ride at another level.

[SWERVE]

Some interesting thoughts raised here, good to see.
Are the days of a privateer team driving to GP loaded up in van really gone? Pretty sure the Moto3 is a single bike rule, one bike, spare motor, parts etc, racing as many European GP's the team could get a start at. Catching the odd Spanish national race, some more in Italy, maybe the odd BSB wildcard?
Anyone remember Brent Jones and Richard Scott doing the privateer thing?
Maybe the kiwi team could pick up some experience doing testing duties for some of the other teams? Just like Scotty did with Lucky Strike Yamaha, helping out with tyre testing and picking up the odd race as a fill in for Mike Baldwin.
Even if it meant a different rider going over every month or so, and getting a chance to ride at another level.

Gav, as much as i would love to see a return to the underdogs turning up to a GP and raising a few eyebrows (just like it used to be) I doubt that such a team would even be allowed in the pits at a modern GP event (even moto 3) I wouldnt be surprised if there wasnt mimimum vehicle & hospitality regulations these days. In a bid by the oranisers to get the desired professional image they require.
Still think it might be possible for a rider to tout themselves around europe doing duties as testers etc.... but could be a very long road to a full ride in todays scene.

[SWERVE]

Well Spud,

Its the clubs you need to be pestering not the roadrace commission at MNZ,Their job as volunteers doing up to 20 hours of unpaid work per week,Is to oversee the running of the discipline and TRY and keep everybody happy and on the same page.

Its the clubs you should be approaching,As its their job to foster the sport as shown by the South Islanders and dare I say it,One letter is hardly a huge effort and you have to admit,It was a bit long and drawn out,Put yourself in their position,Again volunteers and with a huge workload.Best attack would be at the coalface or on a committee.

Agree with not pestering the road race comission as they really only look after our domestic needs............ and that would keep them busy..... with all sorts.
However MNZ as a whole could do something im sure!
Correct me if im wrong but do we not have a IDSE team representing NZ
And a junior motox team also.......... who i believe have there own training camp in NZ
Im sure MZ contributes to this by the way its always headline news on the website.

your thoughts.....

[SWERVE]

[QUOTE=CHOPPA;1130175189]I could be wrong but im not sure if I was a parent spending big $$$ that id pay for my kid to do the EJC. You have been there so you will tell me different. I know its putting there names out there in a big way that is good but if I were a team owner I dont think id recruit from that series. IMO the ninja is a great start out class because its easy to ride them at there maximum potential so the riders are not really challenging there limits. Once they start getting onto proper race bikes like Moto 2, 3 Supersport and Superbike then show they can ride those bikes to the limit thats when I see the offers to come in.

I hope im wrong because it would be fantastic if Daniel and Jake got some good rides! I would think that the money would be better spent getting them on a 600 in NZ at 16 then buying a ride?

I have to disagree mate. How many moto3 / moto 2 and soon moto gp riders came through Red Bll rookies..... a few.
EJC is just a WSBK replica class....but you dont have to be a "pedrosa clone"
Many of the WSBK teams run development or Junior teams in World 600 superstock & 1000 suprstock.... these are the people taking an interest in EJC.
Im sure if you asked Jake or Rob if they would rather do 600,s in NZ or EJC for a season they would give you a pretty definate answer.
Im not going to go on & on about EJC, but it will provide a path for youngsters into WSBK who through other channels would not get that opprtunity.
Even a few wildcard rides or testing as poss a 3rd rider in such teams in europe would give them more skills than a season here.
Doing the years in NZ to become 600 or superbike champ by lets say 20yrs old and then offering that title as a reason to get a ride in europe................. well done son..... have you got a younger brother...... get my point.

There is never a right way or a wrong way though, just get on to it asap!! 15 to 18 year olds is where its at. Thats why I keep bleating on about MX kids is because they already have advanced bike skills way before there old enough to even start racing streetstock. Bucket racing and MX is where I would be training my young fella if he wants to ride

[slowpoke]

Well Spud,

Its the clubs you need to be pestering not the roadrace commission at MNZ,Their job as volunteers doing up to 20 hours of unpaid work per week,Is to oversee the running of the discipline and TRY and keep everybody happy and on the same page.

It's the "same page" part that I struggle with, but I acknowledge they do their best with the time and resources available.

Its the clubs you should be approaching,As its their job to foster the sport as shown by the South Islanders and dare I say it,One letter is hardly a huge effort and you have to admit,It was a bit long and drawn out,Put yourself in their position,Again volunteers and with a huge workload.Best attack would be at the coalface or on a committee.

You may well be right mate. I had my lil' 2 year old's tanty a while back but I'm just going with the flow these days. Only time I get to follow things up or bash the keyboard is the time away at work with the 6 months/year I'm home flat out doing the "have to do" stuff rather than the "nice to do" stuff. That's just the choice I make with my job: money to race but bugger all time or opportunity to do so vs get a real job and have more time and opportunity but bugger all money. Such is life.

I really admire your effort and persistence (in lots of areas within the sport) but it shouldn't be that hard to make changes that are obviously positive. Life is too short, the bucket list is too long, to waste time being the water wearing down the rock.

[Billy]

Agree with not pestering the road race comission as they really only look after our domestic needs............ and that would keep them busy..... with all sorts.
However MNZ as a whole could do something im sure!
Correct me if im wrong but do we not have a IDSE team representing NZ
And a junior motox team also.......... who i believe have there own training camp in NZ
Im sure MZ contributes to this by the way its always headline news on the website.

your thoughts.....

Yip,Valid point,However you may need to speak too somebody a bit further up the food chain,My involvement is with the roadrace commission only.

Having said that,Its probably something they wouldnt consider unless there was some sort of plan put too them by ALL the clubs working as one unit.

[Billy]

You may well be right mate. I had my lil' 2 year old's tanty a while back but I'm just going with the flow these days. Only time I get to follow things up or bash the keyboard is the time away at work with the 6 months/year I'm home flat out doing the "have to do" stuff rather than the "nice to do" stuff. That's just the choice I make with my job: money to race but bugger all time or opportunity to do so vs get a real job and have more time and opportunity but bugger all money. Such is life.

I really admire your effort and persistence (in lots of areas within the sport) but it shouldn't be that hard to make changes that are obviously positive. Life is too short, the bucket list is too long, to waste time being the water wearing down the rock.

No mate,Your right,It shouldnt be that hard too make changes,But until we're all working towards the same end,It always will be.

[steveyb]

[ How many moto3 / moto 2 and soon moto gp riders came through Red Bll rookies..... a few.
EJC is just a WSBK replica class....but you dont have to be a "pedrosa clone"

Bucket racing and MX is where I would be training my young fella if he wants to ride

I think that they both have their place, Rookies Cup and EJC. The major difference between the two (other than the bikes and the venues) is that Rookies Cup is fully sponsored and EJC is a paying gig. Albeit a fairly good value one.

But the proof is in the pudding as to which one the market values the most, but one must acknowledge that EJC has run only one season, so seasons 2 and 3 will be the proof of whether the market values it. Over 100 people were invited to Rookies Cup selection this year from, who knows, 3 times that number of applicants maybe? I don't know.
But in any case, clearly there is room for them both and hopefully the WSBK/WSS teams really are looking there for fresh faces. But they would be foolish to not also be looking at Rookies Cup would they not?

It will be tough for a Kiwi rider to get into Rookies Cup. I don't buy the market/political thing too much as a South African rider gets in almost every year and their market/history is crap compared to ours. But we must understand that it might be there. But I just cannot help but thinking that we must just keep trying. There must be some value in just exposing our kids to the thing at all. I also can't buy into the 'but we are just setting them up for disappointment' arguement. Hell, life is one disappointment after another, but if you never try then you can never win. Protecting kids from disappointment is guaranteeing that they will continuously be disappointed. What do we do when they lose a race or they crash?

I think that the PureBlack racing model is the one we need to study. The model is there, the parallels are exact and the builders of it are here in NZ ready to tell all because they are entrepreneurs who want to grow the pie, not functionaries who want to carve up an ever decreasing one. Bicycle racing is no more popular in NZ than motorbike racing, not really. Sure, lots of people ride bicycles for pleasure and training etc, but very few race competitively or professionally. (Round Lake Taupo doesn't really count. The true racers there are a fraction of the entrants. Some of them are motorbike racers too).

So, yeah, I can see the future where "we" set up an NZ team that slots straight into the EJC with a group of kiwi riders, which is all set up ready to go, then graduates onto Moto3 or Superstock 600/1000 after learning the ropes and the circuits and in 10 years time maybe WSBK or whatever. What I am thinking though is that too many people miss in all of this, that it takes money, and most of that money comes from the riders, in one way or another. Be it in direct fees or in personal sponsorship (the same thing I guess), in the vast majority of cases, the rider pays, full stop. My mate Simone (Phonica Racing) is not racing at the moment (he did hurt his hand) mainly because he could not find the full budget for the full season. It is not easy. So, the NZ team would require that the riders pay, at least a major contribution. I think some people think that all riders in world champs get paid or something. The truth is far from that. From time to time even MotoGP riders don't get paid.

And just note of caution. There are any number of stories, as Shifty Shirrifs pointed out, of people with great expectations getting to Europe, paying big money and being shafted while they look you straight in the eye and do it. Europeans do not play by the same rules we do.

There are teams in the UK and USA who take paying riders. Maybe that would be a better place to get a grounding in the ways of international racing (at the higher levels I mean).


As for current and partime 2011 riders in MotoGP/Moto2/125 from Rookies Cup/Red Bull Academy/Rookies precursors (and these are only the ones I can spot from memory):

Zarco (first Rookies Cup champion 2008)
Folger
Fagerhaug
Kent
Salom
Kornfeil
Stafford
Binder
MacKenzie
Ajo
Calia
Hook
Oliviera
Savadori
Sebestyen
Not sure how many of the Spanish riders might have gone through the system.

Smith
Redding
Marquez
Pedrosa
Midge Smart!!!

A reasonable stable I would think.

[slowpoke]

Thanks Doc, interesting post.

My only concern regarding the Pure Black comparison is that we already have world class cyclists and a reasonable level of international competition and exposure for top NZ cyclists. The grassroots level of cycling is healthy and generating international calibre riders on a regular basis.

We aren't in a similar position with motorcycle road racing. There's absolutely no reason we can't get to a similar position but I'm thinking the task is slightly different and requires focus on building up the local scene to feed any international effort.

No reason it can't be done though, and I agree with your sentiment: EJC, Red Bull Rookies doesn't matter, any attempt and exposure overseas can only be a good thing for a youngster.

[Bender]

Taking a "Scott Dixon" approach makes the most sense - with a consortium each putting in money to get him rolling and using a stepping stone approach, perhaps through the US. But it was always apparent that Scott was a rock star driver, definitely something special. Do we have a motorcyclist with the same X-factor, and I don't mean just being a good rider?

Going to the US to race is not dumb - there are excellent professional teams there racing in series that may not be MotoGP, but are still worthwhile. (SD may not have made F1, but he seems to have done pretty well for himself in Indycars.)

MotoGP is in dire straits anyway. - I've cut a few parts of an opinion piece from David Emmet's Moto Matters website. (http://www.motomatters.com/analysis/2011/10/13/2011_phillip_island_motogp_thursday_roun.html) He's well informed and his analysis has turned out to be on the money over the past couple of years.


"the most worrying development comes among the teams, with the 2012 MotoGP grid looking worryingly threadbare. There were complaints that this season's complement of just 17 riders was a bit of an embarrassment, but it could be much worse for next season. So far, there are only 12 confirmed entries for 2012 - three Ducatis, four Hondas, four Yamahas and Colin Edwards on the NGM Forward CRT machine - with 2 more - an LCR Honda and the Aspar team - certain to join them, though riders and, in the case of Aspar, bikes still have to be confirmed. That makes a field of just 14, growing to 16 if Pramac field a single-rider team (as hoped) and Suzuki remain in the series with their current (very low) level of involvement. Both those rides are looking increasingly unlikely, however,

The reason for the lack of bikes is two-fold, and both reasons have been debated at length in the past. The first is the astonishing inability of the teams to find sponsors, and the inability of the series as a whole to attract money into the championship.

The second is perhaps a more significant factor, and a sign that a major revolution is about to be unleashed in MotoGP. The costs of leasing a MotoGP bike have grown fast over the years, despite the factories' best efforts to keep the price down. For just the cost of leasing a satellite MotoGP machine with no hope of winning a race, teams could be running a top-level two-rider effort in Moto2, or a very serious World Superbike team. And that's without the cost of riders, staff, hospitality units, and a major expense, travel and accommodation for the 18 rounds that comprise the MotoGP season. Put all those together and it is easily double or even triple the lease price of the cheapest satellite machines.

The costs have already broken Aspar - one of the most efficient and well-funded teams in the paddock, running championship-level efforts in both 125 and Moto2, and coming in to MotoGP with big plans of expansion two years ago. After failing to reach a deal with Ducati, Aspar will now become a CRT entry, in all likelihood fielding a BMW-powered Suter for 2012.

The switch by Aspar could be crucial, encouraging other, less prominent teams to follow suit and enter as a Claiming Rule Team. After all, the difference between spending 6 million euros to fight for 10th or spend 3 million euros fighting for 12th is huge in cash terms, but relatively tiny in terms of results. The satellite bikes have never been truly competitive as the role of electronics has grown, making the CRT route a much more attractive prospect.

Honda will be reducing from 6 bikes to 4, or if Marc Marquez gets a separate team in MotoGP, a total of 5. Ducati has reduced from 6 bikes down to 3, with the possibility of a 4th being added if Pramac stays in. To be fair to Ducati, their reduction has come more of a result of poverty inside the teams rather than cutbacks from inside the factory, as is the case with HRC.

[Bender]

A CRT team using New Zealand's depth of knowledge of engineering, without the cost of prototype racing - that's a concept that says hello to me.

[CHOPPA]

A CRT team using New Zealand's depth of knowledge of engineering, without the cost of prototype racing - that's a concept that says hello to me.

A well set up NZ team in OZZY would be a good start

[wayne]

maybe when red bull ask for riders both parents height, is means they after small riders,

[Shorty_925]

Instead we have the situation where Scott Moir/Jamie Rajek, a very promising team who could really go places, rock up to a club event with their new superbike and get half the track time of Joe Citizen going nowhere on his/her post-classic/BEAR's/600.
[/I]

Have you not seen the 2011/2012 BRM Summer Series entry forms? Let me redirect you Supplementary regs number 8 & 9: http://www.sportsground.co.nz/files/Site/130/95/Pdf/110927211244KCXFVIXM.pdf

[Shorty_925]

Correct me if im wrong but do we not have a IDSE team representing NZ
Last years ISDE team were a club team from NZ.

[slowpoke]

A well set up NZ team in OZZY would be a good start

That's what I'd be aiming for as a great development step to something bigger down the track, both for a team and riders. Much more attainable but still a great test with world class riders and tracks.


Have you not seen the 2011/2012 BRM Summer Series entry forms? Let me redirect you Supplementary regs number 8 & 9: http://www.sportsground.co.nz/files/Site/130/95/Pdf/110927211244KCXFVIXM.pdf

Yeah, I saw the entry form. Well done to the organisers for making some significant changes for this series. It's better, still a long way from encouraging our best young talent onto the right bikes, but it's a step in the right direction.

[Skunk]

More volunteers, more money, more time. Then we could do everything. Somethings gotta give somewhere.

At the moment each Club runs it's own scheme (and method) with it's own costs.

'My' idea is to find the 'young talent' in MX or Buckets and develop from there.
• They need a clear class progression. (Streetstock -> 450 -> 600 -> 1000?)
• Training. Clear, quality training.
• Nationwide support. (If they are the 'talent' at one club they are given the same treatment at ALL other clubs they compete at as far as entry fees etc.)
• One standard scheme for the 'talent' Nationwide.
• Limited numbers (two per club?)

Question is: who pays? Some clubs have enough in the bank to send a rider to EJC quite a few years running and some don't. The money won't last forever and either will the volunteers.

The scheme VMCC ran this year cost the Club directly around $3000. We have been fund raising to cover that. Volunteers run it and fund raise for it. Sooner or later the Committee will change and so will the scheme. This is something that needs control from MNZ. One scheme.

Questions are:
• How is the scheme managed? (MNZ dictated?)
• How are the riders judged?
• What do we do when it's time for them to go to Ox/Europe/US? How do we mange/fund it?

I would like to see some progress but frankly have enough trouble with what I do already.

[jellywrestler]

A well set up NZ team in OZZY would be a good start
How easy would that be given that despite the fact they've way more people in their country, and support of the general population ( how many world champions have aussie produced in the last twenty years) their superbike grids are less than ours.
Why is that then?

[gixerracer]

More volunteers, more money, more time. Then we could do everything. Somethings gotta give somewhere.

At the moment each Club runs it's own scheme (and method) with it's own costs.

'My' idea is to find the 'young talent' in MX or Buckets and develop from there.
• They need a clear class progression. (Streetstock -> 450 -> 600 -> 1000?)
• Training. Clear, quality training.
• Nationwide support. (If they are the 'talent' at one club they are given the same treatment at ALL other clubs they compete at as far as entry fees etc.)
• One standard scheme for the 'talent' Nationwide.
• Limited numbers (two per club?)

Question is: who pays? Some clubs have enough in the bank to send a rider to EJC quite a few years running and some don't. The money won't last forever and either will the volunteers.

The scheme VMCC ran this year cost the Club directly around $3000. We have been fund raising to cover that. Volunteers run it and fund raise for it. Sooner or later the Committee will change and so will the scheme. This is something that needs control from MNZ. One scheme.

Questions are:
• How is the scheme managed? (MNZ dictated?)
• How are the riders judged?
• What do we do when it's time for them to go to Ox/Europe/US? How do we mange/fund it?

I would like to see some progress but frankly have enough trouble with what I do already.

I agree with some of what you say.
I think as long as all clubs are doing something positive that is the main thing. It wouldnt matter to much I dont think if each club does it in a different way. Vic club has access to some high level riders as do most clubs and asking some of these guy's to perhaps do some coaching in the lunch breaks or something with the real young ones wouldnt be such a bad idea?
Start them young and keep them keen is the key and also the hard part

[gixerracer]

How easy would that be given that despite the fact they've way more people in their country, and support of the general population ( how many world champions have aussie produced in the last twenty years) their superbike grids are less than ours.
Why is that then?

The main reason aussie produce champions is A: they have a very high level of competition and B: There disributor backed team provide there riders direct access to overseas rides. Honda over the years have poored millions of dollars in to there riders going overseas and look at what suzuki have done for Josh waters recently, Bayliss got the 250gp ride with the help of Suzuki which is what got him started. TKA for Malidin Honda done a fair bit for Gobert the list goes on and on.

[jellywrestler]

The main reason aussie produce champions is A: they have a very high level of competition and B: There disributor backed team provide there riders direct access to overseas rides. Honda over the years have poored millions of dollars in to there riders going overseas and look at what suzuki have done for Josh waters recently, Bayliss got the 250gp ride with the help of Suzuki which is what got him started. TKA for Malidin Honda done a fair bit for Gobert the list goes on and on. Good point Craig, my question was why are the grids at the aussie superbikes even smaller than ours?
P.S. Isn't it past your bedtime or have they got electricity in Feilding now and you've got electric lighting?

[Billy]

More volunteers, more money, more time. Then we could do everything. Somethings gotta give somewhere.

At the moment each Club runs it's own scheme (and method) with it's own costs.

'My' idea is to find the 'young talent' in MX or Buckets and develop from there.
• They need a clear class progression. (Streetstock -> 450 -> 600 -> 1000?)
• Training. Clear, quality training.
• Nationwide support. (If they are the 'talent' at one club they are given the same treatment at ALL other clubs they compete at as far as entry fees etc.)
• One standard scheme for the 'talent' Nationwide.
• Limited numbers (two per club?)

Question is: who pays? Some clubs have enough in the bank to send a rider to EJC quite a few years running and some don't. The money won't last forever and either will the volunteers.

The scheme VMCC ran this year cost the Club directly around $3000. We have been fund raising to cover that. Volunteers run it and fund raise for it. Sooner or later the Committee will change and so will the scheme. This is something that needs control from MNZ. One scheme.

Questions are:
• How is the scheme managed? (MNZ dictated?)
• How are the riders judged?
• What do we do when it's time for them to go to Ox/Europe/US? How do we mange/fund it?

I would like to see some progress but frankly have enough trouble with what I do already.

Too be honest,A lot of what you say here makes me all the more convinced that the correct path at this stage is to try and identify the talent as early as possible,As you say at buckets or Junior motorcross and introduce them to the folks down at Motorcycling Canterbury to try and get them into their coaching regime asap,It appears that in the North Island the clubs are struggling to keep up with the workloads and costs already and are unable to produce a scheme even remotely close to that in Christchurch.

A classic example of this would be Tyler Lincoln,I'll bet hes just about had more tracktime in the last 2 weeks,Than hes had all winter and the level of coaching down there is structured for the younger entrants,Its taken a lot of hard work and dedication to get that setup and I honestly dont see anybody in the North Island replicating it anytime soon.

I hope the guys in the North Island dont take this as a negative,But from what Ive seen they are under rescourced and under qualified in comparison,They are putting in a lot af hard work for very little results.

[wharfy]

Almost all NZ sports have a "high performance" squad/coach/school/whatever ACU/MNZ have in the past sent "teams" to various events but as far as I'm aware there is no "high performance" group (for road racing anyway)

Despite that, motorcycling is the most successful international sporting code for New Zealand with the most world titles (35) of any sport by a big margin !!!

It is a shame that there is no Olympic Games motor cycle class.

I don't have any figures to back this up but I suspect that rowing has fewer competitors than motorcycling in NZ and that a top of the line single scull costs as much as much as Stroudy's Superbike - It has probably been going in NZ as long as Motorcycling and produced, what a dozen world titles ? and a similar number of gold medals ?
I remember NZ rowing success at Munich and Mexico, then a big drought until about the 90's when things turned around for them, now NZ is a major force in international rowing.
Perhaps OUR people should talk to THEIR people (as we say in Wellywood :) )
Check out THEIR website http://www.rowingnz.com/
I have no idea where they get their money - or what sort of "bang for the buck" their sponsors get - can anyone name a rowing sponsor ?

[slowpoke]

More volunteers, more money, more time. Then we could do everything. Somethings gotta give somewhere.

At the moment each Club runs it's own scheme (and method) with it's own costs.

'My' idea is to find the 'young talent' in MX or Buckets and develop from there.
• They need a clear class progression. (Streetstock -> 450 -> 600 -> 1000?)
• Training. Clear, quality training.
• Nationwide support. (If they are the 'talent' at one club they are given the same treatment at ALL other clubs they compete at as far as entry fees etc.)
• One standard scheme for the 'talent' Nationwide.
• Limited numbers (two per club?)

Question is: who pays? Some clubs have enough in the bank to send a rider to EJC quite a few years running and some don't. The money won't last forever and either will the volunteers.

The scheme VMCC ran this year cost the Club directly around $3000. We have been fund raising to cover that. Volunteers run it and fund raise for it. Sooner or later the Committee will change and so will the scheme. This is something that needs control from MNZ. One scheme.

Questions are:
• How is the scheme managed? (MNZ dictated?)
• How are the riders judged?
• What do we do when it's time for them to go to Ox/Europe/US? How do we mange/fund it?

I would like to see some progress but frankly have enough trouble with what I do already.

Thanks Skunk, very informative post.

Yep, I can well understand the workload you're operating under. With that in mind I'm thinking something could be done to reduce the effort required by having systems/classes/events setup that do some of the work for you. By that I mean we shouldn't have to physically identify and foster talent, it should be a by product of the way we do our business, ie natural selection. We shouldn't have to physically direct/help good riders through the stepping stones classes you mentioned, they should want to naturally progress, and will do if the events are structured properly.

Forget cross entry's. There is what, 7 hours of track time at the average meeting? Even without changing the current classes that should be more than enough for the 6 race "groupings" as they stand for each to get close to an hour on track. Tack on "600 and over" and "up to 600" fastest riders races (top 15-20 riders in each?) at the end based on lap times as they do at Paeroa/Wanga's. Portion the race length right and people will naturally want to move through the classes. No work required other than drawing up the program.

It won't be popular with everyone but my feeling is that some hard decisions could relieve you of some hard work. The landscape won't change overnight but if things stay as they are they won't change at all.

Take some of the "junior development" money each club seems to spend and organise for club reps to get together and nut out something like the above (or completely different) that will have everyone on the same page and benefits everyone, especially juniors, long term. While you're there organise a once a year "inter-clubs championship" like the BEAR's do at Sound of Thunder and rotate it through the clubs on a yearly basis. Doesn't have to cost the clubs anything, but a one off event that is as social as it is competitive will encourage big participation, and give those who want/need it a higher level of competition. I'd be off like a bride's nightie if I could pool resources with a few others for travel, accommodation etc to race down South or up North and have a few bevvies/larf's afterwards.


How easy would that be given that despite the fact they've way more people in their country, and support of the general population ( how many world champions have aussie produced in the last twenty years) their superbike grids are less than ours.
Why is that then?

Because their best young riders continually transition to bigger and better things overseas. If you brought back all the riders racing internationally you'd have one farkin' awesome line up.

Numbers at Oz national level mightn't be great but the quality of field is amazing. For example Robbie Bugden 3 times NZSBK champion is currently 8th in the standings and every one of the guys in front of him either has won or is capable of winning the ASBK championship.

Something good must be happening at club/regional level to be feeding the ASBK.

With this sort of competition on our doorstep I struggle to see why you'd want to make it more difficult and more expensive by running a team further away. We struggle to beat guys like Robbie Bugden and Gareth Jones who aren't/weren't quite on the top step of podium in Oz yet we want to take on the World? Walk before you can run. Little steps: build up the local scene....produce riders who can be competitive in Oz....then target overseas.

[oyster]

The usual myths abound....
"Find young talent"
"No resources /money"
It's all BULLSHIT
I've been lucky to be at the front line of Junior development now for over 10 years and I can assure anyone that it takes very little effort, resources and money. The model in Canterbury is evidence of this and we've offered the knowledge of this program to MNZ and many clubs around the country countless times.
That these clubs and and our national leadership shun this advice and pursue other ideas which fail is nothing short of unbelievable.

[Billy]

The usual myths abound....
"Find young talent"
"No resources /money"
It's all BULLSHIT
I've been lucky to be at the front line of Junior development now for over 10 years and I can assure anyone that it takes very little effort, resources and money. The model in Canterbury is evidence of this and we've offered the knowledge of this program to MNZ and many clubs around the country countless times.
That these clubs and and our national leadership shun this advice and pursue other ideas which fail is nothing short of unbelievable.

No argument here :shutup:

[slowpoke]

The usual myths abound....
"Find young talent"
"No resources /money"
It's all BULLSHIT
I've been lucky to be at the front line of Junior development now for over 10 years and I can assure anyone that it takes very little effort, resources and money. The model in Canterbury is evidence of this and we've offered the knowledge of this program to MNZ and many clubs around the country countless times.
That these clubs and and our national leadership shun this advice and pursue other ideas which fail is nothing short of unbelievable.

I've got my own issues with the way things are run in the NI so I'm in no way biased towards them but lets play devil's advocate here and look at the "evidence" you mentioned: MCC have done some good things, no argument. But after those 10years there are only 2 regular MCC NZSBK Superbike competitors and no Superbike race or title wins by a SI racer in recent memory despite most of the NZSBK rounds being held in the SI. So NZ's highest level of racing is dominated in both numbers and results by NI riders not involved with the MCC system. If someone from the NI was throwing up similar stats to yours as an argument to follow their lead would you be rushing to sign on?

Sure there are some good numbers in the lower categories but the discussion has been about developing and transitioning young riders to the highest levels, and we aren't seeing them in NZ let alone overseas. So clearly there are some issues, and it's not as simple as you make it out.

I'm not saying you've got it wrong, far from it, but the MCC model is not the magic bullet, it's just one piece of a jig-saw.

[Billy]

I've got my own issues with the way things are run in the NI so I'm in no way biased towards them but lets play devil's advocate here and look at the "evidence" you mentioned: MCC have done some good things, no argument. But after those 10years there are only 2 regular MCC NZSBK Superbike competitors and no Superbike race or title wins by a SI racer in recent memory despite most of the NZSBK rounds being held in the SI. So NZ's highest level of racing is dominated in both numbers and results by NI riders not involved with the MCC system. If someone from the NI was throwing up similar stats to yours as an argument to follow their lead would you be rushing to sign on?

Sure there are some good numbers in the lower categories but the discussion has been about developing and transitioning young riders to the highest levels, and we aren't seeing them in NZ let alone overseas. So clearly there are some issues, and it's not as simple as you make it out.

I'm not saying you've got it wrong, far from it, but the MCC model is not the magic bullet, it's just one piece of a jig-saw.

Jake Lewis 125GP champion,Seth Deveruex,Prolite 250 champion,Johnny Small,650 Pro twin Champion,Dennis Charlett,600 Supersport champion and an endless list of top line competitors in the National series is good a enough start for me,600 Superstock won by an englishman with NZ heritage and all of a sudden the North Islanders achievements pale in significance,What does that leave,Superbike won by a 40 something year old,Brilliant,So what is it outside of Jaden Hassan(Who incidentally has had training with MCC as have Glen Skachill,Avalon Biddle and Daniel Mettam) that the North Island scheme has produced???

Time will show the likes of the 3 Hoogie brothers,Cam Jones,Nick Cain,Eric Oliver Maxwell,Ants Singer and many more from the MCC stable have the ability too step up.

The point is though,Would they waste their time and especially money,Winning a NZ superbike Championship that means NOTHING in the grand scheme of getting to Moto GP and thats what this thread is about isnt it? Unless Suzuki NZ pick up the tab currently offered to Andrew,Craig and co while theyre in their early teens,It will be a waste of time and money,At 21 your considered too old to be starting in the Superbike/Moto GP classes in Europe.

So I guess the question you have too ask yourself is,Do we want to make our domestic championship better at Superbike level,Or concentrate on getting the talent on the world stage as early as possible???

No,What MCC are doing is not the magic bullet,BUT its alot more effective than the proverbial foot shooting expedition on the North Island!!!

[CHOPPA]

I couldnt care less if I won every other Championship in New Zealand. The only one that really counts to me is the Superbike

[CHOPPA]

There is no correct route but I like the one that Jaden has taken. 125, Superstock 600, Supersport and Superbike next year. He will be 19 and have a good shot at a superbike title in NZ. Andrew is old but he could still challenge the top ten in just about any championship I believe. Beating him is what the goal for all NZ riders should be.

If you can beat Andrew on a superbike under 20 years old then you have a very bright future IMO

[RobGassit]

Setup a team environment in Australia supported by Kiwi's for young Kiwi's. It's all there on our doorstep. No need to reinvent any wheels. It's only a bloody plane ride for christ sake.

[Billy]

I couldnt care less if I won every other Championship in New Zealand. The only one that really counts to me is the Superbike

Yerr,But who cares what you want to win,This thread is about getting YOUNG AND UP AND COMING riders noticed by the Moto Gp gods wasnt it????

[Billy]

There is no correct route but I like the one that Jaden has taken. 125, Superstock 600, Supersport and Superbike next year. He will be 19 and have a good shot at a superbike title in NZ. Andrew is old but he could still challenge the top ten in just about any championship I believe. Beating him is what the goal for all NZ riders should be.



If you can beat Andrew on a superbike under 20 years old then you have a very bright future IMO

You missed Buckets,Streetstock and Junior motocross,Thats where he started!!!

[Buddha#81]

The usual myths abound....
"Find young talent"
"No resources /money"
It's all BULLSHIT
I've been lucky to be at the front line of Junior development now for over 10 years and I can assure anyone that it takes very little effort, resources and money. The model in Canterbury is evidence of this and we've offered the knowledge of this program to MNZ and many clubs around the country countless times.
That these clubs and and our national leadership shun this advice and pursue other ideas which fail is nothing short of unbelievable.

Totally agree with oyster on this. its so simple its stupid, my 10 year old has been loaned a RS50= free except my time to prepare it (which jack helped do and enjoyed) borrowed some boots and gloves. He got given a helmet (near new) and i got him leathers for his birthday $170 and near new. So its cost about $250 to get him on the track.

He gets to ride at MCI evens for free in the training class which is added in the rounds just like any other class. They get lunchtime on the track and the odd twilight session (friday night when the tracks not being used anyway) All it costs is a little time and effort to make it happen. We are very lucky down here that MCI see where the future lies and we have good people that JUST MAKE IT HAPPEN!

My biggest issue is wondering how good he may get and if i can afford to fly around the world while we case the dream? Rob Lewis how is it done? Seriously the next level when he starts racing and on what worries me a bit.....but thats three years off and hes got heaps of cheap fun to be had!

Brent Cotton

[wayne]

well maybe all the importers , ie suzuki honda yamaha bmw kawasaki, put in some cash each year , for leading superbike and 600 s/sport, for overseas travel,
mnz does insurance and entries for those two class winners.....
thn at least some help to run a bike in aussy or where ever,
make the nationals more exciting and if winner doesnt want it , second can have it

[gixerracer]

well maybe all the importers , ie suzuki honda yamaha bmw kawasaki, put in some cash each year , for leading superbike and 600 s/sport, for overseas travel,
mnz does insurance and entries for those two class winners.....
thn at least some help to run a bike in aussy or where ever,
make the nationals more exciting and if winner doesnt want it , second can have it

Be good if we could get ALL the above to support the NZ Nationals first

[gixerracer]

You missed Buckets,Streetstock and Junior motocross,Thats where he started!!!

Similar route that I took. MX-Buckets-250 production racing-600 production-SBK except for the first bike which was a F2 kitted RS250 but we will not mention that piece of shit ae Billy:facepalm:

[SWERVE]

Similar route that I took. MX-Buckets-250 production racing-600 production-SBK except for the first bike which was a F2 kitted RS250 but we will not mention that piece of shit ae Billy:facepalm:

Exactly..... look at the current crop of young riders in 600,s who have come thru similar channels (inc streetstock / mcc training)
There might not be many in superbike at the moment but they are on their way........ unless they choose to further their 600 route overseas for a bit longer..... but many of these Hassan/Small/Hoogie/Jones/Skatchill/Cain/Oliver-Max/Devereux/McArthur/Lewis etc.... will get on a superbike either here or overseas in the near future.
Been a big gap over the years between groups of younger talant, but now they are all coming at once............ cant wait.

[Billy]

Similar route that I took. MX-Buckets-250 production racing-600 production-SBK except for the first bike which was a F2 kitted RS250 but we will not mention that piece of shit ae Billy:facepalm:

Well I never had any trouble winning on it,Still,There was a lot of wet weather in the Manawatu back then,Maybe you were too scared to ride it ????

[slowpoke]

Jake Lewis 125GP champion,Seth Deveruex,Prolite 250 champion,Johnny Small,650 Pro twin Champion,Dennis Charlett,600 Supersport champion and an endless list of top line competitors in the National series is good a enough start for me,600 Superstock won by an englishman with NZ heritage and all of a sudden the North Islanders achievements pale in significance,What does that leave,Superbike won by a 40 something year old,Brilliant,So what is it outside of Jaden Hassan(Who incidentally has had training with MCC as have Glen Skachill,Avalon Biddle and Daniel Mettam) that the North Island scheme has produced???

I'm not gonna get into the whole tit for tat NI vs SI thing, cos it's just like football cards: I'll match your Dennis Charlett with Craig Shirriffs, or raise Choppa, Nick Cole or Hayden Fitzgerald against Jake Lewis, yada bloody yada....it goes nowhere. I was trying to show why the "unbelievable" situation that Oyster see's, is very believable when viewed from further away. And how after 10years of junior "development" the same ol' people are still turning up and winning...and that includes Dennis Charlett who is also over 40 like Andrew Stroud but for some reason that's Ok with you, but Andrew's not.

The contrast with ASBK, BSB or AMA couldn't be more striking with youngsters battling for their biggest championships on a yearly basis. I'm not maligning MCC, I'm just frustrated that we don't seem to be progressing despite the best intentions on both sides of our ditch.

Time will show the likes of the 3 Hoogie brothers,Cam Jones,Nick Cain,Eric Oliver Maxwell,Ants Singer and many more from the MCC stable have the ability too step up.

The point is though,Would they waste their time and especially money,Winning a NZ superbike Championship that means NOTHING in the grand scheme of getting to Moto GP and thats what this thread is about isnt it? Unless Suzuki NZ pick up the tab currently offered to Andrew,Craig and co while theyre in their early teens,It will be a waste of time and money,At 21 your considered too old to be starting in the Superbike/Moto GP classes in Europe.

The thing with a Superbike title is you are racing and proving yourself against the best riders in NZ. What's the point of taking on the best overseas if you don't even know if you can beat the best here? A Superbike title worth nothing? Beating and/or competing against Stroud, Bugden, Shirriffs, Frost, Fitzgerald, Smith is on a totally different scale to winning any other class. But yes, it does take valuable time, which is why I'm disappointed we don't try harder to concentrate the talent into fewer classes and reward/encourage progression through the classes. If you can run at the front on a GP125 what's the point of doing F3/pro-twins? Get their fast arses on a 600 ASAP! Same for the next step from 600 to Superbike, why languish in 600's for 3 years if you have proven you're competive?

So I guess the question you have too ask yourself is,Do we want to make our domestic championship better at Superbike level,Or concentrate on getting the talent on the world stage as early as possible???

So how do you identify talented riders if they don't get to ride against decent opposition? (7 riders completed the Supersport Championship last year) My point isn't about making Superbike better, it's about it being the best proving ground we can provide, with truly international quality opposition and decent depth of field. If we don't prove how good a rider is it's just a lottery whether they're up to international competition or not.

No,What MCC are doing is not the magic bullet,BUT its alot more effective than the proverbial foot shooting expedition on the North Island!!!

Probably, but until the clubs and MNZ find a way to work together with a common goal and decent game plan it doesn't really matter.......

[CHOPPA]

You missed Buckets,Streetstock and Junior motocross,Thats where he started!!!

Yes indeed! Bucket racing would be cool for young MX riders to do, chuck some slicks on there 85s and ride for no points. Shame they are not really interested

[Kickaha]

Yes indeed! Bucket racing would be cool for young MX riders to do, chuck some slicks on there 85s and ride for no points. Shame they are not really interested

Run them as a separate class

I went to a Welly bucket meet at Tawa 8-9 years ago and they were running a Motard class with small cc bikes

[White trash]

Yes indeed! Bucket racing would be cool for young MX riders to do, chuck some slicks on there 85s and ride for no points. Shame they are not really interested

Hey dickhead, come past the shop tomorrow. Got an idea to run by ya.

[gixerracer]

Well I never had any trouble winning on it,Still,There was a lot of wet weather in the Manawatu back then,Maybe you were too scared to ride it ????

You probably cheated and went in the 250prdy class like dave cole did lol

[Billy]

You probably cheated and went in the 250prdy class like dave cole did lol

Yea but I still won on it,You never did :shutup::shutup::shutup:

[gixerracer]

Yea but I still won on it,You never did :shutup::shutup::shutup:

Alzheimer's kicking in again old boy. I won both raeces at the last Masterton street race and won one on boxing day, would have won both if I hadn't forgot to turn the stupid power valves on:facepalm:

[Billy]

Alzheimer's kicking in again old boy. I won both raeces at the last Masterton street race and won one on boxing day, would have won both if I hadn't forgot to turn the stupid power valves on:facepalm:

No,Not my memory,I just wasnt there,I had taken up my new sport by then of consuming as much alcohol as possible in the shortest possible time,So I wasnt there and didnt care haha!

[slowpoke]

No,Not my memory,I just wasnt there,I had taken up my new sport by then of consuming as much alcohol as possible in the shortest possible time,So I wasnt there and didnt care haha!

WOOOT! Finally, I've found a sport that suits me! I don't s'pose you've got a contact for a club I can join?

[Billy]

WOOOT! Finally, I've found a sport that suits me! I don't s'pose you've got a contact for a club I can join?

Yea just step into your local bar and go for it,The rules are,Theyre arent any rules or officials,

But be warned!!It can be just as expensive and damaging too your health as roadracing and Im not sure whoever won anything because nobody could ever remember LOL

[miper]

Yea just step into your local bar and go for it,The rules are,Theyre arent any rules or officials,

But be warned!!It can be just as expensive and damaging too your health as roadracing and Im not sure whoever won anything because nobody could ever remember LOL

Been an active competitor in this for a while now..since about 89 I reckon, Had a few good battles with billy over the years too. No trophies or protests but on occasion have managed to scrape the knees still..............

[wharfy]

If you can beat Andrew on a superbike under 20 years old then you have a very bright future IMO

That's for sure

[R6_kid]

Can't help but think "what if" John Britten was still around... Moto3/Moto2 and the new MotoGP CRT teams would be right up his alley.

I've been pondering the idea of a "Team Kiwi" for some time, Moto3 definitely seems to be the place to start, as most of our younger blood are coming through from the Hyosung/Ninja 250 classes and they engine dynamics aren't totally different to a high revving single.

Shauns idea of a consortium putting up a 'share' and getting a return on any results has been tried and tested before with Scott Dixon, it's a gamble, but it could pay dividends with the right rider and the right person running the team.

It needs to be run as a business though the obvious consideration is remuneration, remembering that a number of riders are paying to be in a team, and a that aren't paying are riding for no pay other than any individual sponsor money.

If it gets off the ground (internet) and into a properly formulated plan, with credible people at the helm, and a rider I believe in I would be willing to come up with the cash to kick start it.

[gav]

Read an interesting article in the latest AMCN about these guys.http://www.brpracing.com.au/
Ben Reid runs a performance shop in Oz, but also runs a race team in Spain, racing in the CEV series. Interesting that he was saying that he had been offered a place in Moto2 but was unable to secure enough sponsorship to consider running. No Aus companies were interested, and no European companies were really interested because they were Australian. He's running 125's and Moto2 in Spain. Must have some decent contacts though as he has managed to pick up an ex Marc Marquez chassis to use. And again he is using his team for young aussie talent, hoping they can progress from there.

[R6_kid]

They had a wild card in at Phillip Island, weren't doing too bad either!

[DerekP]

Read an interesting article in the latest AMCN about these guys.http://www.brpracing.com.au/
Ben Reid runs a performance shop in Oz, but also runs a race team in Spain, racing in the CEV series. Interesting that he was saying that he had been offered a place in Moto2 but was unable to secure enough sponsorship to consider running. No Aus companies were interested, and no European companies were really interested because they were Australian. He's running 125's and Moto2 in Spain. Must have some decent contacts though as he has managed to pick up an ex Marc Marquez chassis to use. And again he is using his team for young aussie talent, hoping they can progress from there.

Hmm I see why these guys do so well. Their "marketing manager" is quite the wee hottie - type of girl you would wanna take home..... but not to meet ya mum:no:

[SWERVE]

Hmm I see why these guys do so well. Their "marketing manager" is quite the wee hottie - type of girl you would wanna take home..... but not to meet ya mum:no:
The 3rd Rider Matt Davies was the championship winner of EJC 2011.
And that is the secret of successfully racing in europe (overseas) A TEAM.... with all the neccessary people doing the neccessary jobs. To make it work.
And yes having a "cutie" in marketing is a definate bonus.:wari:

[RDjase]

yes having a "cutie" in marketing is a definate bonus.:wari:

http://www.staceymcmahon.com.au/

The pics in her gallery are worth a look :Offtopic:

[SWERVE]

http://www.staceymcmahon.com.au/

The pics in her gallery are worth a look :Offtopic:

Mmmmmm nice!

Personally wouldnt care if the marketing person looked like Helen clarke on a bad day:sick:.............. if they could raise enough sponsorship for the like of Jake Lewis and newbies like Tyler etc to race at EJC or similar.....ay:Punk:

[steveyb]

Where's Sandra S when we need her.

Just for a bit of balance of course.....

We raced against Stacey in 2007 in 125GP at the MotoGP meeting (when they had 125's and not the leaky shitty tractor class. All the boys were drooling.
Maybe that's why Hairy, Chambers and Kirk were so slow.....?

[gav]

Also helps that Stacey McMahon is the partner of Ben Reid, the guy running the team.

[Brett]

Can't help but think "what if" John Britten was still around... Moto3/Moto2 and the new MotoGP CRT teams would be right up his alley.

I've been pondering the idea of a "Team Kiwi" for some time, Moto3 definitely seems to be the place to start, as most of our younger blood are coming through from the Hyosung/Ninja 250 classes and they engine dynamics aren't totally different to a high revving single.

Shauns idea of a consortium putting up a 'share' and getting a return on any results has been tried and tested before with Scott Dixon, it's a gamble, but it could pay dividends with the right rider and the right person running the team.

It needs to be run as a business though the obvious consideration is remuneration, remembering that a number of riders are paying to be in a team, and a that aren't paying are riding for no pay other than any individual sponsor money.

If it gets off the ground (internet) and into a properly formulated plan, with credible people at the helm, and a rider I believe in I would be willing to come up with the cash to kick start it.

I would be very interested in being involved too, from the team management perspective. Gareth's right, it DOES need to be run as a business is run. A clear plan with a short term, medium term and long term focus needs to be developed. Serious work needs to be put into petitioning for corporate sponsorship (let's face it, without corporate sponsorship, the team would never get the necessary legs to go long term. It will take years to get serious traction in many cases and the cash burn rate can be quite high, bootstrapping it only gets you so far...success requires exposure and the right exposure at that.)

Strong management skills with dynamic, enterprising thinking will be needed. Contacts of the management team would be critical, both within motorsports, motorcycle racing and amongst the corporates so that doors can be encouraged to open.

The start for all of this would be the development of a business case which would outline strategically how a venture such as this could get itself going. I have a few business contacts who might be interested in being involved from a sponsorship perspective and would know the right people in the right places of large corporations to get serious sponsorship going as well as wealthy individuals (here in NZ, in South Africa and England) who might be convinced to pledge some support. I am sure that there are a few people here on KB who are reasonably well connected too.

There is no doubt that we have the engineering talent in NZ to pull this off and there are a few riders who possibly have the skills to make it on the world stage.

It is high time we had at least one kiwi racer in Moto2 and/or MotoGP and if others are serious about this, I would love to investigate it further. It will be hard work!