Safer Journeys for Motorcycling [Archive] - Page 3

MSTRS

16th January 2012, 08:13

Most 600cc plus bikes are into licence losing territory even before they are operating at optimum in top gear.
I guess there's a few that might need to get into top...my old GixxerSemFiddy will do it in FIRST...

... theres plenty of releases on that site where they contradict themselves,...

Apt pupil, aintcha?

Fuck, you're as bad if not worse, than the dickheads that call themselves McSack. "We're doing amazing things for motorcyclists. But we can't breathe a word of any of it. In fact, we've said too much already. Any more and we'll have to fire ourselves." Just like them, you have no credibility whatsoever.
But you can still save yourself...
Put up. Or fuck off.

p.dath

16th January 2012, 08:51

The issue is that in many poorer areas of New Zealand, the rates of un-licenced drivers are soaring.

As the test has become harder and more expensive, many poorer people are finding it beyond their reach. The good ones get used to begging rides, and taking the bus.

I was under the impression that the restricted test has been made harder and the full test easier, and the total cost of sitting both of these tests is uncharged - they have just shifted the costs from one part to another within the test framework?

Conquiztador

16th January 2012, 18:21

Oh Pleeeaaasse... cry me a river... parking spaces in Wellington FFS. Whoopee. Next time i'm in Wellington (next week on business actually) I'll be sure to check one out. Funny thing is though, i'm pretty fucken sure we have parking spaces here too. Who should I thank for those.

I'm not decrying the work of others, dont doubt that there are some hard working people out there, but this whole idea of uniting all motorcyclists in a common cause is simply a joke
.......

Change the focus. Said it at the start, still saying it now. Start working WITH these people instead of against them and you might make MORE progress, and a lot quicker than you think.
........

This whole mentality that 'they're out to get us' is bullshit, and the focus on trying to 'stop them getting us' is exactly why they will 'get us'.

WAKE UP FFS.

Sorry. The "working with-in" will only benefit the ones who get there. The rest of us will still loose. And the "they are out to get us" is a fact. But not as a result of any focused effort to do so. But as a side result of trying to make everything a revenue gathering, fix it, happy happy joy joy setup. Just because other countries have put regulations and hinders in the way does not mean it is the way to go.

You're not wrong.
That's called Negotiating.
To Negotiate we have to have something to offer. The only way I see that happening is either a) we take something away they take for granted or b) we come up with something new that they want/need.

As you can see I have "built a few fences" in the past. So when I say "we're fucked" I don't do so light-heartedly.
Either we attack back with 'a'.........unless someone can come up with a genuine 'b'.
Neither a nor b happens with paper work.

The only things we might be able to muster is numbers of voters, bad publicity (for "them"), ultimatums that "they" most possibly would not want to face, a "win-win" for us and "them", and... full on anarchy ;-)

BMW produced quite acceptable performance even with the 100bhp limit imposed by the german govt. Yet most here will sneer and call them underpowered bikes. Well sometimes those 'underpowered' bikes have their own attributes that can be as exciting to explore.

I own a BMW K1 1989 and she has enough power. She tops 240k/h, I have scraped the pegs (and worn the toes on my boots...), she happily sits on 180/h until I tire (or I start to worry about my license...), I own all cars at the lights, and I have no intention of getting anything else as a "sports tourer". And she is one of the 100hp ones. (If I ever wanted to I can add a turbo and take her up to close to 300hp...)

Brian407

16th January 2012, 18:38

And the "they are out to get us" is a fact.

Stop smoking the hooter buddy, it's making you paranoid. Not every street corner camera is looking at you. Or is it ???

Just because other countries have put regulations and hinders in the way does not mean it is the way to go.

Yeah, why would we wanna learn from something that works elsewhere.

A wise man learns from his mistakes, an even wiser man learns from the mistakes of others.

James Deuce

16th January 2012, 18:40

OMG! This is Brian Tamaki having a public spaz out, isn't it?

davereid

16th January 2012, 18:40

I was under the impression that the restricted test has been made harder and the full test easier, and the total cost of sitting both of these tests is uncharged - they have just shifted the costs from one part to another within the test framework?

The fees are essentially the same, and its quite correct that the restricted test has been made the virtual equivalent of the full.

But the fees are only part of the "cost" structure.

The licence risks becoming available only to an elite class. Those who can afford 120 hours training, three fails and a 200km round trip to go to a town where they actually run the test.

If we don't place it within the reasonable financial and skill reach of all, we will have to accept that many will not get it. And then we will need draconian measures to ensure the unlicensed don't drive.

And I have to be honest.

My licence cost a fiver at the MOT office. It was raining the day of the test, so the cop didn't want to go and do the test, he just got me to go get him a pie.

And I have wasted 35 years of insurance premuims.

Conquiztador

16th January 2012, 19:03

Stop smoking the hooter buddy, it's making you paranoid. Not every street corner camera is looking at you. Or is it ???
If you re-read my post you will find that you missed my point: "And the "they are out to get us" is a fact. But not as a result of any focused effort to do so. But as a side result of trying to make everything a revenue gathering, fix it, happy happy joy joy setup. Just because other countries have put regulations and hinders in the way does not mean it is the way to go." I do not smoke. Anything at all. And I am far from paranoid. The fact is that if there is not a combined effort we will be faced with changes re motorcycling that we currently do not want.

Yeah, why would we wanna learn from something that works elsewhere.

A wise man learns from his mistakes, an even wiser man learns from the mistakes of others.
The sad truth is that it does not work. Draconian legislation will always save a few lives and so we need to ask our selves are we prepared to accept them? Personally I am not. I am fully supportive of individual responsibility where the emphasis is put on each of us to stay alive and not on a government to come up with legislation to save us from our selves.

Brian407

16th January 2012, 19:26

I am fully supportive of individual responsibility where the emphasis is put on each of us to stay alive and not on a government to come up with legislation to save us from our selves.

Laudable, but unfortunately a pipe dream. We've (society in general) had our opportunity to take individual responsibilty for ourselves and the youth courts are full of shining examples of exactly why it doesnt work. Were not in the 50's anymore, were in a world that exists on television and in the media, and where anything seen in colour must be true, and as long as the muppets of the world have something to copycat the will continue to do so because our retarded PC world has given them the right to do so. Only a return to, in your view draconian, regulation will fix that, because personal responsibility sure as shit hasnt.

NONONO

16th January 2012, 19:40

It IS the Bishop.......
"Only a return to Draconian legislation will fix that" FFS!
Running for the hills, begin!

Conquiztador

16th January 2012, 19:42

Laudable, but unfortunately a pipe dream. We've (society in general) had our opportunity to take individual responsibilty for ourselves and the youth courts are full of shining examples of exactly why it doesnt work. Were not in the 50's anymore, were in a world that exists on television and in the media, and where anything seen in colour must be true, and as long as the muppets of the world have something to copycat the will continue to do so because our retarded PC world has given them the right to do so. Only a return to, in your view draconian, regulation will fix that, because personal responsibility sure as shit hasnt.

In my world giving up is never an option. I might or I might not be the one who comes up with the answer/a way for bikers to be heard. In any case I will keep on supporting any cause I think has merit and making my voice heard if I think it is worth it. But if it all is swept from under my feet I would like to know that I did my bit and it failed. This will then give me the excuse to take the FTW path and ride outside the law.

NOTE: Higher ACC, higer petrol prices, added levies will never stop me riding. In fact I can see something good coming out of them: Only the dedicated will keep on riding, and so more space on the roads for me. What I am all for is stopping more draconian legislation dumbing down motor bikes and riding.

Scuba_Steve

16th January 2012, 19:48

Brian407

16th January 2012, 19:50

It IS the Bishop.......
"Only a return to Draconian legislation will fix that" FFS!
Running for the hills, begin!

Still quoting things out of context i see. You did note that Conquiztador used the word as descriptor first, didnt you. Oh, wait, what am I thinking, you dont actually care do you? as long as it suits your needs.

Brian407

16th January 2012, 19:54

In my world giving up is never an option.

Who said anything about 'giving up'. Have you not been paying attention? The whole reason i'm pissed off with this place in the first place is because some fucker said giving up was easier than fighting. I just think the predominant focus here is wrong.

Brian407

16th January 2012, 19:58

Boy this is your lucky day, I have the country just for you, a country with the high volume of govt oppression you pine for & I'm sure we (KB) cant start a fund to get you to this "dream" place of yours (North Korea)

No thanks, been on the other side of the border and didnt like it much, but I betcha they have a low 'accident' rate.

NONONO

16th January 2012, 20:07

Still quoting things out of context i see. You did note that Conquiztador used the word as descriptor first, didnt you. Oh, wait, what am I thinking, you dont actually care do you? as long as it suits your needs.

Erm..nope, sorry, still just sounds like nonsense, just drivel. Not heard any one option from you yet, just insults and moans.
Can you come back when you have a valid point, we've already exceeded our troll quota.

Conquiztador

16th January 2012, 20:12

Who said anything about 'giving up'. Have you not been paying attention? The whole reason i'm pissed off with this place in the first place is because some fucker said giving up was easier than fighting. I just think the predominant focus here is wrong.

Yep, I was paying attention. But I can only speak for my self and the "not giving up" was entirely a reflection on my own view re all this. As I think you have at an earlier stage (or perhaps in another thread?) observed; this is a public forum and the contributors are from all sorts of background, education and convictions. As a result you will get what you get. You need to grow a thick skin and learn how to focus on the replies that helps whatever crusade you are on. I failed on that point early on too. Now I try to only focus on what is written as that is what matters here; address the posting not the poster. Anyhow, I am sure you knew all that.

Scuba_Steve

16th January 2012, 20:16

No thanks, been on the other side of the border and didnt like it much, but I betcha they have a low 'accident' rate.

and yet you want to bring that kinda Govt oppression here :facepalm:

Brian407

16th January 2012, 20:22

and yet you want to bring that kinda Govt oppression here :facepalm:

Being a little over dramatic aren't you ? We've had nothing even close to a dictator since Muldoon fell off his perch.

Madness

16th January 2012, 20:27

I'm sure we (KB) cant start a fund to get you to this "dream" place of yours (North Korea)

I'm in for an easy $20 :niceone:

Brian407

16th January 2012, 20:30

I'm in for an easy $20 :niceone:

Happy to provide an account number for all donations. I feel another overseas trip coming on. :niceone:

trustme

17th January 2012, 01:53

Well this thread is coming along nicely.

We have moved from bitch slap to pointless drivel. Where are the mods when you need them.

MSTRS

17th January 2012, 07:34

Yeah, why would we wanna learn from something that works elsewhere.

A wise man learns from his mistakes, an even wiser man learns from the mistakes of others.

Shall we start to talk about cheesecutters, then?

What govts around the world do is try things, maybe to justify their own existence or perhaps some things seem like a good idea. True, some are. Some are not (like cheesecutters, where bikes are concerned).
You are right about the wise man. Where you go wrong is assuming he exists within the NZ govt...

Katman

17th January 2012, 07:39

The sooner we all agree that there's too many motorcycle accidents and it's up to us to reduce them, the sooner we might start seeing some progress.

Clockwork

17th January 2012, 13:09

The sooner we all agree that there's too many motorcycle accidents and it's up to us to reduce them, the sooner we might start seeing some progress.

Mr Katman.

Please.

Explain to me what I/we can do to stop other riders from having accidents.

Not wishin' to tempt fate here but personally, I've been doin' fine on four wheels and two wheels for about the last 35 years.

FatHead

17th January 2012, 13:20

The sooner we all agree that there's too many motorcycle accidents and it's up to us to reduce them, the sooner we might start seeing some progress.

What he ^ Said.
We must all take responsibility for ourselves and work on those who are of the opinion they are the only motorists (not just motorcyclists who are dickheads) on the road and they own the right to be there.

We all pay our taxes to allow us the standard of roads we currently enjoy and having read the document that started this thread I am ever hopeful (yes trying to stay optomistic about the process) that eventually we will have even better roads some time in the future. The only thing I can see that they have left out of the proposal, and it has been said in this thread somewhere else, is that as well as more driver training for Motorcyclists (compulsory retesting if it comes to that for some) is for other road users to be required to meet more stringent test criteria and also be retested from time to time prior to them becoming senior citizens. We could also take a more draconian stance as some foreign countries do and require that certain accidents or incidents result in the removal of your license until the test is readministered and passed. In these countries the testing also costs in the region of $1000 each time it is administered.

"safe journeys" everyone

Katman

17th January 2012, 13:40

Explain to me what I/we can do to stop other riders from having accidents.

Not wishin' to tempt fate here but personally, I've been doin' fine on four wheels and two wheels for about the last 35 years.

We live in a world that has been dumbed down to the lowest common denominator.

Our ability to enjoy motorcycling is being eroded by that lowest common denominator.

Therefore, we have to lose the apparent acceptance of totally avoidable accidents and start insisting that the lowest common denominator start lifting their game.

Katman

17th January 2012, 14:03

And furthermore, we have to actually be seen, by both TPTB and the general public, to be insisting on that improvement.

avgas

17th January 2012, 14:05

We live in a world that has been dumbed down to the lowest common denominator.

Our ability to enjoy motorcycling is being eroded by that lowest common denominator.

Therefore, we have to lose the apparent acceptance of totally avoidable accidents and start insisting that the lowest common denominator start lifting their game.
Or crash better.

avgas

17th January 2012, 14:08

The sooner we all agree that there's too many motorcycle accidents and it's up to us to reduce them, the sooner we might start seeing some progress.
There are too many motorbike accidents. I blame the motorists.
When does it get high enough to start culling them off?

trustme

17th January 2012, 16:09

There are too many motorbike accidents. I blame the motorists.
When does it get high enough to start culling them off?

Most motorbike accidents don't involve motorists
Hence TPTB find it easier to cull motorcyclists by legislation.
That will only stop when the collective WE get our act together & improve our safety record

Clockwork you have to stop thinking it is everyone else that is the problem.
When did you last go on a training course ? Are your skills as good as they could be ?

Everyone moans about the poor standard of driving in NZ. What makes us think that we as riders are any better.
There is no logic to that assumption

Scuba_Steve

17th January 2012, 18:19

Everyone moans about the poor standard of driving in NZ. What makes us think that we as riders are any better.
There is no logic to that assumption

Studies find it so, & bikers (as a general rule) want to be on the road, we ain't on it "just cause we have to be" So being something we love, we appreciate it not just use it. Somewhat the same diff between computer "geeks" vs computer users :yes:

Conquiztador

17th January 2012, 19:14

This is not rocket science:
- Make getting the bike license harder (as per some European countries).
- Make it compulsory to re-sit license ever 5 years.
- Make a doctors certificate compulsory every 5 years.
- Make riding skill training a yearly compulsory thing if a rider wants to keep his/her license.

AND (here comes the bit that you have been waiting for...)
- Give all the training (and licensing requirements) to not-4-profit organisations to run. (Working on a break even result where no money is required for any share holders)
- Subsidise the compulsory training, etc. from the $30/year we pay as bikers, from savings in ACC costs, from lower costs in accidents, from part of the $300 million spent yearly to police the roads, from say 0.1 cents/litre of petrol sold, from not having to add more draconian laws and the costs associated. (And if that is not enough I recon we can come up with more ideas to ultimately save more money for the gummint.)

bikaholic

17th January 2012, 19:31

I am sure most would do whatever is required to renew their licences, but it is round the corner out of sight that their human behavioural patterns will no longer be suppressed.

Conquiztador

17th January 2012, 19:36

I am sure most would do whatever is required to renew their licences, but it is round the corner out of sight that their human behavioural patterns will no longer be suppressed.

I work in an industry where we train people all the time. Again and again. And it does make a difference. Even the thickest learns something after a few times.

bikaholic

17th January 2012, 19:43

I work in an industry where we train people all the time. Again and again. And it does make a difference. Even the thickest learns something after a few times.I agree with you, but some issues are attitude or behavioural, which are harder to test for.
For instance passing a licence and then wheelstanding all the way home, or a cage driver on learners self driving unacompanied to the restricted test.

Scuba_Steve

17th January 2012, 19:50

caseye

17th January 2012, 19:54

It's ideas in here guys not absolutes, I'd pretty much agree with you scuba but the idea is to get one Train of thought/idea going that most are/would be willing to see through.

Conquiztador

17th January 2012, 20:06

You lose me a bit here
Yes
No
No
No
Yes
N/A

You might be making the big bucks & have the time spare, but me, I do not. If this came in I'd simply ride without a licence I couldn't afford the cost nor the time to do it.

No need for big bucks. "Subsidised" was the word. 100,000 riders makes 20,000/year for license. And 100,000/year for upskilling/rider training would cost very little. It is a numbers game.

We pay $30/year towards "fixing" the issue. That makes $3million/year. Add the other bits I stated and I estimate the amount that would be available to do this would be approx $20 million/year. Making it $200/year per rider. Easily enuf for the full upskilling cost.

So no cost for upskilling. And I am sure there would be enuf to subsidise a little every 5 years for the doctors cert and the license too.

Scuba_Steve

17th January 2012, 20:32

No need for big bucks. "Subsidised" was the word. 100,000 riders makes 20,000/year for license. And 100,000/year for upskilling/rider training would cost very little. It is a numbers game.

We pay $30/year towards "fixing" the issue. That makes $3million/year. Add the other bits I stated and I estimate the amount that would be available to do this would be approx $20 million/year. Making it $200/year per rider. Easily enuf for the full upskilling cost.

So no cost for upskilling. And I am sure there would be enuf to subsidise a little every 5 years for the doctors cert and the license too.

it would still be a hell of a cost for me & I'm one of the "better off" ones there are plenty with less than me (plenty with more too <_<)

Then fact is while the Govt will love the idea of forcing more money outta people, the training & licensing you mention will continue to be sub-par, probably get worse than current & they won't be subsidizing (A Govt payout money :wacko:) or if they do it'll be part of higher fees, which then a few years later they'll still drop the sub but continue to collect the fees

trustme

18th January 2012, 01:04

Studies find it so, & bikers (as a general rule) want to be on the road, we ain't on it "just cause we have to be" So being something we love, we appreciate it not just use it. Somewhat the same diff between computer "geeks" vs computer users :yes:

I don't buy that. Golfers might love to whack a ball but they are not all Tiger Woods. Rider may like to ride that does not make them Rossi or Chris Birch.

A retired instructor for the police motorcyclists expressed to me his concern at the low level of ability of many riders to carry out basic bike handling manouvres

We collectively are nowhere near as good as we think. We are kidding ourselves. Studies find it so.

riffer

18th January 2012, 06:38

You are correct in many things there trustme.

But think upon this: a substantial majority of injury and fatal accidents involving motorcycles have a common factor - the riders or car drivers were not operating their vehicle with the correct licence, i.e. learners outside of hours, or learner on larger motorcycle, or worse yet, no licence at all.

If we can't currently police this issue, how do you think we can do it after we've legislated for a bigger emphasis on licenses?

Do you advocate a much higher police presence, or a BIG crackdown on motorcyclists?

MSTRS

18th January 2012, 07:30

Majority, Riffer? I don't think so...

Scuba_Steve

18th January 2012, 07:51

Conquiztador

18th January 2012, 08:09

You are correct in many things there trustme.

But think upon this: a substantial majority of injury and fatal accidents involving motorcycles have a common factor - the riders or car drivers were not operating their vehicle with the correct licence, i.e. learners outside of hours, or learner on larger motorcycle, or worse yet, no licence at all.

I am not saying you are wrong, but would like you to show those facts and where they are stated. Because if you are right, then the issue becomes something totally different.

Katman

18th January 2012, 08:23

I never said we were "the best of the best" (Rossi or Birch). Studies do show as a general rule bikers are better road users than car drivers, for the reasons I stated (this is bikers too NOT scooterists)
But car enthusiasts would also be up with the bikers in skill level, but being as everyone has a car they are the minority in the majority.

Also don't confuse this either, the study was not about legality, I believe the car drivers as a general rule were found to be more legal. This was about safety, awareness, responsiveness, skill etc

You really do live in a dream world, don't you?

If that were really the case we wouldn't be having anywhere near as many crashes as we do.

:weird:

Scuba_Steve

18th January 2012, 08:32

You really do live in a dream world, don't you?

If that were really the case we wouldn't be having anywhere near as many crashes as we do.

:weird:

ummm...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-v1x2vfX9jWY/Tclh_I-bTaI/AAAAAAAAAOY/5X8XT_ytnX8/s1600/pot-kettle-black.jpg

avgas

18th January 2012, 08:41

Most motorbike accidents don't involve motorists
Hence TPTB find it easier to cull motorcyclists by legislation.
That will only stop when the collective WE get our act together & improve our safety record
mo·tor·ist (mtr-st)
n.
One who drives or travels in an automotive vehicle.

Many who ride bikes, do so for all the wrong reason. They don't "ride" they "travel with". These motorcyclists effectively are 'motorists'. They don't do it to feel exposed, or to pit themselves against their machine. Perhaps I am a bit funny but me riding a bike is a religion, not transport, not a status symbol, not a "step back in time" nostalgia element. Its just me, and the bike.

As mentioned earlier. There are too many motorbike accidents. I blame the motorists.
Time to cull them off all together.
Leaving only the fanatics behind.

MSTRS

18th January 2012, 08:43

You really do live in a dream world, don't you?

If that were really the case we wouldn't be having anywhere near as many crashes as we do.

Don't entirely agree...
(Long time) motorcyclists develop greater skills of observation, for instance, compared to car drivers - but, on a vehicle which is inherently unstable and does not protect the operator in a crash, we are NEVER going to compare favourably with cars.
Take a bit of gravel mid-corner...the rider may have missed seeing it for any number of reasons. The bike goes down and the rider breaks a leg and wrist. The car may skitter slightly, the driver says "whoopsie" and carries on.

avgas

18th January 2012, 08:43

I never said we were "the best of the best" (Rossi or Birch). Studies do show as a general rule bikers are better road users than car drivers, for the reasons I stated (this is bikers too NOT scooterists)
But car enthusiasts would also be up with the bikers in skill level, but being as everyone has a car they are the minority in the majority.
Also don't confuse this either, the study was not about legality, I believe the car drivers as a general rule were found to be more legal. This was about safety, awareness, responsiveness, skill etc
Motorcyclists have the advantage that they die off if they aren't good enough though. As do car enthusiast sometimes.

Katman

18th January 2012, 08:50

ummm...

Difference being, in my little dream world I'm not wearing a pair of these.

http://maximumoverload.net/smf/index.php?action=mgallery;sa=media;id=200

Katman

18th January 2012, 08:52

Don't entirely agree...
(Long time) motorcyclists develop greater skills of observation, for instance, compared to car drivers - but, on a vehicle which is inherently unstable and does not protect the operator in a crash, we are NEVER going to compare favourably with cars.
Take a bit of gravel mid-corner...the rider may have missed seeing it for any number of reasons. The bike goes down and the rider breaks a leg and wrist. The car may skitter slightly, the driver says "whoopsie" and carries on.

Are you saying that hitting a bit of gravel and crashing shows a greater skill level than a car driver???

avgas

18th January 2012, 08:53

I don't buy that. Golfers might love to whack a ball but they are not all Tiger Woods. Rider may like to ride that does not make them Rossi or Chris Birch.
A retired instructor for the police motorcyclists expressed to me his concern at the low level of ability of many riders to carry out basic bike handling manouvres
We collectively are nowhere near as good as we think. We are kidding ourselves. Studies find it so.
I actually agree with this completely.
But this is usually not resolved by riding courses or hi-viz. Hell my last training day I went to, I left early because I felt it did not put enough pressure on people.
It truly scares me with the number of 50+ year olds, women or cruiser types who I talk to about riding (or driving) and come up with the following statements:
"Why do I need to learn how to slide/drift? I'm too old for that tomfoolery"
"I don't need to lean the bike over, I take it slow"
"I don't need to know what happens when I slam on the brakes"
"Pushing a vehicle to its limits is stupid and reckless"

Hate to point it out to you lot, but even though you don't know what your vehicles limit is it doesn't change the fact that the laws of physics still apply (even above the law of the police). If you don't know what happens when your tyres slip, your brakes lockup, the weight of your bike changes.......and you find yourself in a situation where the laws of physics kick in......your fucked.
Doesn't matter if your doing 80kph on a BMW or 200 kph on a GSXR......if you don't know how to react, or what to expect, your fucked.

Scuba_Steve

18th January 2012, 08:56

Motorcyclists have the advantage that they die off if they aren't good enough though. As do car enthusiast sometimes.

there are very good logical reasons why motorcyclist fare better in skill studies

- Everyone has a car, bikes (like car enthusiasts) are a "niche" market of those whom actually want/enjoy them & the road
- Bikers (like car enthusiasts) tend to hang out or catch up with other bikers, we are our own little community & we like to talk about bikes so we learn skills, techniques, dangers from others in our group, general car driving population (exception to enthusiasts) don't have this. (this is our biggest advantage to helping bikers stay safe, get them in with other bikers whom will "show them the way" as such)
- Bikers either do it right or feel the pain, car drivers just have higher premiums for screwing up. Humans learn through physical pain.
- Bikers tend to get an appreciation of their machine learn how it responds, its capabilities etc. general public car drivers don't care
- Bikers have to stay aware, if someone else screws up we feel it. We don't want to!
- Bikes take more attention to operate so we tend not to get the "daydream driving" effect like those with cruise control automatic cars

just to mention a few

Scuba_Steve

18th January 2012, 08:57

Difference being, in my little dream world I'm not wearing a pair of these.

http://maximumoverload.net/smf/index.php?action=mgallery;sa=media;id=200

Your family photo not mine mate

Katman

18th January 2012, 09:00

there are very good logical reasons why motorcyclist fare better in skill studies

- Everyone has a car, bikes (like car enthusiasts) are a "niche" market of those whom actually want/enjoy them & the road
- Bikers (like car enthusiasts) tend to hang out or catch up with other bikers, we are our own little community & we like to talk about bikes so we learn skills, techniques, dangers from others in our group, general car driving population (exception to enthusiasts) don't have this. (this is our biggest advantage to helping bikers stay safe, get them in with other bikers whom will "show them the way" as such)
- Bikers either do it right or feel the pain, car drivers just have higher premiums for screwing up. Humans learn through physical pain.
- Bikers tend to get an appreciation of their machine learn how it responds, its capabilities etc. general public car drivers don't care
- Bikers have to stay aware, if someone else screws up we feel it. We don't want to!
- Bikes take more attention to operate so we tend not to get the "daydream driving" effect like those with cruise control automatic cars

just to mention a few

So we do all that and still crash as often as we do?

Doesn't sound like skill to me.

trustme

18th January 2012, 09:00

Could you name the studies , I would like to have a look. Our accident statistics don't support what sounds like an urban myth. Kind of like boy racers defending their behaviour & trying to tell us they are good drivers who can handle their cars.

Is the universally reviled boy racer any different from the the drop kick rider who does wheelies , stoppies, overtakes on yellow lines, does 300kph on public roads. We all hate boy racers yet defend our right to do equally dumb shit. TPTB & Joe Public are not totally stupid they can see through the double standard.

Riffer, I for one do not want to see a huge crack down or increased policing. Anecdotaly I am aware that a large number of riders are unliscenced after being stopped & checked at Whatawhata. Copper said you would be very surprised just how many riders are unliscenced
I don't like Conquiztadors restitting every 5 years & doctors certs etc, I do support training but would prefer the use of incentives rather than compulsion.

30 years ago drink driving was almost the norm, today it is socially unacceptable, we haven't eradicated it but situation has improved partially due to enforcement but also due to publicity campaigns designed to reeducate us

30 years ago I can remember banging on the doors of the bike importers to get funding for a Bronz campaign for improved motorcycle safety, bugger all progress has been made in the last 30 years, not for want of effort by Bronz & others. I would like to see the following

1/ A standardised graduated training regime, subsidised by ACC, importers of both motorcycles & accessories, bike dealers, & who ever else can be roped in like insurance co's
2/ Every buyer of a new bike gets a training course subsidised by the importer/ ACC
3/ Every used bike sold the dealer/ACC subsidise the course Yeah i know it doesn't catch private sales but baby steps.
4/ A no claims or performance bonus introduced to the ACC levy , the longer you ride without a claim the lower your levy [ probably too difficult to administer ]

I don't bag any of you guys working at the coal face, had a go & realise what a thankless task it is when the people you are trying to help seem unable to reach any sort of consensus

Katman

18th January 2012, 09:06

Could you name the studies , I would like to have a look.

It was probably a study carried out by Performance Bikes magazine.

nosebleed

18th January 2012, 09:13

It was probably a study carried out by Performance Bikes magazine.

There's the problem...SuperBike ftw.

Scuba_Steve

18th January 2012, 09:17

So we do all that and still crash as often as we do?

Doesn't sound like skill to me.

I would call Chris Pfeiffer, Valentino Rossi, Guy Martin etc all skilled riders. You wanna look into how much they've crash???

Could you name the studies , I would like to have a look. Our accident statistics don't support what sounds like an urban myth. Kind of like boy racers defending their behaviour & trying to tell us they are good drivers who can handle their cars.
Is the universally reviled boy racer any different from the the drop kick rider who does wheelies , stoppies, overtakes on yellow lines, does 300kph on public roads. We all hate boy racers yet defend our right to do equally dumb shit. TPTB & Joe Public are not totally stupid they can see through the double standard.

I'm gonna see if I can find it again I'm pretty sure it was in AA (of all places) but it was a couple years back now.
Also this was about bikers being higher skilled, that doesn't mean we don't like to "push the limits" or we don't crash. Like above I'd class those riders as skilled but just look at how much they've crashed to acquire that skill & even with the skill doesn't guarantee they won't crash again.

Katman

18th January 2012, 09:22

I would call Chris Pfeiffer, Valentino Rossi, Guy Martin etc all skilled riders. You wanna look into how much they've crash???

I'm gonna see if I can find it again I'm pretty sure it was in AA (of all places) but it was a couple years back now.
Also this was about bikers being higher skilled, that doesn't mean we don't like to "push the limits" or we don't crash. Like above I'd class those riders as skilled but just look at how much they've crashed to acquire that skill & even with the skill doesn't guarantee they won't crash again.

Until road riding motorcyclists begin to equate skill level with amount of miles ridden without crashing instead of getting from A to B the fastest we are going to continue to be fucked over by TPTB.

MSTRS

18th January 2012, 09:27

Are you saying that hitting a bit of gravel and crashing shows a greater skill level than a car driver???

Gah! Thud!
Put MrAverageMotorist on a bike and he'd crash before the gravel...

I'm realistic enough to realise that no matter how skilled a rider is (and an average rider has way better skills across the board, than the average car driver) bikes are still inherently unstable and do not cushion the rider from harm IF the rider turns out to be human and makes a mistake or misses seeing one thing that may cause him trouble.

However, I agree with what you say in general terms. Motorcyclists have far too many, totally avoidable crashes.
So does every other type of motorist BTW

Katman

18th January 2012, 09:30

So does every other type of motorist BTW

I agree entirely John.

Not much we can do about them though.

avgas

18th January 2012, 10:32

Until road riding motorcyclists begin to equate skill level with amount of miles ridden without crashing instead of getting from A to B the fastest we are going to continue to be fucked over by TPTB.
Its a tough one. I know that most of my crashes have happened within about 5km of the house. Yet I have done 300+km rides in a day without fault.
Likewise I have ridden stupid speeds and not crashed, and then done below the speed limit and ended up in hospital.

And I have followed the occasional born-again/fresh squid, and wondered what angel seems to be looking after them while they poodle along loosely all over the road.

Clockwork

18th January 2012, 10:36

Most motorbike accidents don't involve motorists
Hence TPTB find it easier to cull motorcyclists by legislation.
That will only stop when the collective WE get our act together & improve our safety record

Clockwork you have to stop thinking it is everyone else that is the problem.
When did you last go on a training course ? Are your skills as good as they could be ?

Everyone moans about the poor standard of driving in NZ. What makes us think that we as riders are any better.
There is no logic to that assumption

Nuts!! I've never said it was anyone else that was the problem I'm just tired of people trying to make it my problem.

FWIW I suspect that by world standards NZ drivers on the whole are pretty bloody good. Yes there are too many f**kwits on our roads, I see that as more of a cultural issue and no amount of training is going change their attitudes. Making licenses harder to get and keep won't stop these people, they're already largely immune to the sanctions that the state can/will apply, they're already ignoring fines and driving without licenses anyway.

Sure, Kiwi drivers could do some things better but many of these could be improved if TPTB spent just half the money they spend nagging about speeding and drink driving to point out common errors and encourage courtesy and consideration to other road users. Do it in a factual, humorous non-patronising way.

Then, if the authorities stopped using double yellows or flush medians as some sort of traffic calming measure and simply used them to indicate where there is not enough visibility to safely pass. Or used compulsory Stops only where you simply cannot negotiate the intersection safely without stopping, then may be they wouldn't become devalued in the eyes of the public to the point where some drivers feel justified in ignoring them.

trustme

18th January 2012, 10:48

Nuts!! I've never said it was anyone else that was the problem I'm just tired of people trying to make it my problem.

FWIW I suspect that by world standards NZ drivers on the whole are pretty bloody good. Yes there are too many f**kwits on our roads, I see that as more of a cultural issue and no amount of training is going change their attitudes. Making licenses harder to get and keep won't stop these people, they're already largely immune to the sanctions that the state can/will apply, they're already ignoring fines and driving without licenses anyway.

Sure, Kiwi drivers could do some things better but many of these could be improved if TPTB spent just half the money they spend nagging about speeding and drink driving to point out common errors and encourage courtesy and consideration to other road users. Do it in a factual, humorous non-patronising way.

Then, if the authorities stopped using double yellows or flush medians as some sort of traffic calming measure and simply used them to indicate where there is not enough visibility to safely pass. Or used compulsory Stops only where you simply cannot negotiate the intersection safely without stopping, then may be they wouldn't become devalued in the eyes of the public to the point where some drivers feel justified in ignoring them.

Cool, don't dare snivel about your ACC levy, don't dare snivel when flouro apparel becomes compulsory , don't dare snivel at any form of legislation designed to reduce the road toll that will undoubtedly affect your enjoyment of motorcycling . Be comfortable in the knowledge that it is not your fault.

Clockwork

18th January 2012, 11:15

Cool, don't dare snivel about your ACC levy, don't dare snivel when flouro apparel becomes compulsory , don't dare snivel at any form of legislation designed to reduce the road toll that will undoubtedly affect your enjoyment of motorcycling . Be comfortable in the knowledge that it is not your fault.

That's some f'd up logic. Surely as its not my fault I have every effin right to snivel.

James Deuce

18th January 2012, 11:25

FWIW I suspect that by world standards NZ drivers on the whole are pretty bloody good. .

No. They're not.

scumdog

18th January 2012, 11:36

- Bikes take more attention to operate so we tend not to get the "daydream driving" effect like those with cruise control automatic cars

just to mention a few

Hmm, I've had several bikers tell me how they had started falling to sleep while riding - or said how they couldn't remember passing through a section of road etc

And unless you're on a naked bike I guess on straightish roads there's bugger-all difference between car and bike when it comes to likelihood of 'daydream driving' syndrome.

MSTRS

18th January 2012, 11:49

Then, if the authorities stopped using double yellows or flush medians as some sort of traffic calming measure and simply used them to indicate where there is not enough visibility to safely pass. Or used compulsory Stops only where you simply cannot negotiate the intersection safely without stopping, then may be they wouldn't become devalued in the eyes of the public to the point where some drivers feel justified in ignoring them.
What a novel idea!!
Actually warning of 'real' danger and giving the motorist the opportunity to actually think about what they are doing/seeing.
Nah...it'd never work.

And unless you're on a naked bike I guess on straightish roads there's bugger-all difference between car and bike when it comes to likelihood of 'daydream driving' syndrome.

That's because the speed limit isn't realistic.
Yes - I expect you to go all cop on that statement, but you know exactly what I mean...:innocent:

scumdog

18th January 2012, 12:04

I see that as more of a cultural issue and no amount of training is going change their attitudes. Making licenses harder to get and keep won't stop these people, they're already largely immune to the sanctions that the state can/will apply, they're already ignoring fines and driving without licenses anyway.

Nah, more severe sanctions would make them wind their heads in - like "No licence? ooops, you car will be crushed" :blink:- at least they wouldn't be driving without a licence in THAT car again.

Look at what the poms do just because you don't have insurance for instance...

trustme

18th January 2012, 12:08

Nah, more severe sanctions would make them wind their heads in - like "No licence? ooops, you car will be crushed" :blink:- at least they wouldn't be driving without a licence in THAT car again.

Look at what the poms do just because you don't have insurance for instance...

I seem to recall that the pommie insurance compliance is little better than NZ where insurance is non compulsory. Legislation is not the answer.

Clockwork

18th January 2012, 12:15

No. They're not.

I know you're a cynic from way back, James but honestly have you never seen they way the drive in Asia, India, Africa, Latin America the Middle east and Eastern Europe?

Clockwork

18th January 2012, 12:20

...
Look at what the poms do just because you don't have insurance for instance...

And yet still they offend. And the cops there even alerted automatically when an uninsured car is spotted on any one of the multitude of police cameras.

bikaholic

18th January 2012, 16:54

I am not saying you are wrong, but would like you to show those facts and where they are stated. Because if you are right, then the issue becomes something totally different.Joyce paraded those stats to back up him putting time limitations on persons with learners and restricted licences.

bikaholic

18th January 2012, 17:01

Depends on the issue, conquizator, are you trying to cure the riff raff on bikes, or distance competent bikers from the riff raff.

Trades like sparkies and plumbers, proffessions like doctors and nurses have to belong to a society, update practising licences with refresher training and are held to account to a higher standard as judged by their peers.
In this way they distance themselves from the retards of their trade, but they cannot eliminate them.

caseye

18th January 2012, 17:18

So perhaps a voluntary training and rehab for motorcyclists that want to become better riders and gain more skills while making sure that by their OWN actions that they are not seen as temporary NZ'ers and idiots
Just a random thought, seems like not a bad idea to me. I'd give it a go.

StoneY

18th January 2012, 17:45

Problem with that Mark, is even if we behave and stop doing the squid acts, perceptions will not change.
The bikes are seen as fast, loud, dangerous and the toys of the rebels that want to live just outside the 'normal' as perceived by mr Joe Middle Of The Road Public.

Face it, injuries and deaths are down, based on the upsize of the fleet vs the actual crashes and deaths (which have been quite static a long time while the fleet grows)
Contributing to those numbers is better emergency procedures (choppers) better bike gear, better tech on the bikes themselves, the training new incoming riders have to do compared to when I took the scooter for a blat and waited 6 months......

This gets too complex to accurately gauge via mere statistical blips...(errors included)

riffer

18th January 2012, 17:51

Conquistador et al, I'm in Hamilton at the moment so away from all my stuff. I should have probably said significant minority, rather than majority - I think from memory it's approaching 50% of the injuries and fatals are riders outside their licence conditions - either way it's a not insignificant sum.

I'll be back in Upper Hutt in a few days and I'll check my figures. Trouble is, they mostly come from CAS which we all know isn't perfect.

On another note I spotted quite a few riders on the way from Upper Hutt to Hamilton today. Every one I saw was riding well and well dressed for the conditions, with not a one breaking the speed limit or behaving badly.

Get to Hamilton and what do I see within 5 minutes? Four scooter riders wearing jandals and T-shirts, and one with bare feet! And one rider on a VFR400 100 metres from a significant intersection overtake a left-indicating car on the inside.

FFS! What is it with you people in Hamilton?

Katman

18th January 2012, 17:53

Problem with that Mark, is even if we behave and stop doing the squid acts, perceptions will not change.

Thank fuck you're not in any position of influence any more.

StoneY

18th January 2012, 17:56

Thank fuck you're not in any position of influence any more.

Thank fuck YOU have never been. That would have been far, far worse a scenario...........

Katman

18th January 2012, 18:00

Go on, tell us again Brent.

What were you once?

StoneY

18th January 2012, 18:03

Go on, tell us again Brent.

What were you once?

What's your point Steve? I am myself, always have been and remain so.
You are the one who seems fascinated with the past, I personally don't give a fuck about it anymore.

Fatt Max

18th January 2012, 18:04

I know you're a cynic from way back, James but honestly have you never seen they way the drive in Asia, India, Africa, Latin America the Middle east and Eastern Europe?

you forgot Howick and Botany Downs.........

Katman

18th January 2012, 18:12

What's your point Steve? I am myself, always have been and remain so.
You are the one who seems fascinated with the past, I personally don't give a fuck about it anymore.

Cool. So we don't have to listen to who you were, what you did, or why the others gave you the arse, any more then?

James Deuce

18th January 2012, 18:35

I know you're a cynic from way back, James but honestly have you never seen they way the drive in Asia, India, Africa, Latin America the Middle east and Eastern Europe?

Yes. And you can't go comparing our style of regulated and controlled roads with countries where life is worth almost nothing and civilisation is some other countries with money buying primary produce and kitsch bullshit that you produce either as expensively or as cheaply as possible depending on how dependant the suckers are on your primary produce.

NZ is part of a European/North American tradition of highly regulated roads and roading systems with the car as the central construct of the ideal of personal freedom. Not a fucking scooter carrying 12 children and a chicken farm on roads where might makes right, and NZ's yearly road toll happens in an evening.

In that regard, Kiwis are the worst in the world. Absolutely fucking abysmal. The average Croatian looks like a highly skilled, very courteous well bred aristocrat compared to a bull-necked, nose picking, utterly oblivious New Zealand bred and taught mongrel. 5 minutes on a UK motorway taught me more about lane discipline than any driving instructor or relative, and 5 minutes on a French mountain pass taught me more about maintaining velocity while staying on your side of the road, in a low powered, faintly dodgy handling FIAT, than any driving instructor teaching me to mash the brakes in response to any and every hazard ever encountered by a 1976 Vauxhall Viva with an out of balance propshaft that came standard from the factory.

I can guarantee that I will be tailgated, cut up, bullied, and ignored, every single time I take to a NZ road. Have you ANY idea how disconcerting it is for 3 lanes of traffic on the North Circular, a main arterial for London, to stop to let you into a side street, WHEN THEY DON'T HAVE TO? I'd never seen any like it. Dense, dense congestion of the kind that makes Kiwis berserk and I got waved through. I sat there dribbling out of one corner of my mouth, while the chap closest to me gave me a friendly smile and a wave. The London-born mate in the car apologised for the chap's "obvious impatience".

After driving overseas for a year, the very first time I drove in Wellington a fuzzy haired dickhead leaps out of his car and smashes the rear windscreen of the car he was supposed to give way to.

We don't aspire to safe driving OR riding. We just sit on our ill-informed arses insisting that "someone" does "something" about "it".

Well now they are. Soon it will take six years to get a license, cost $40,000 and you'll lose it for exceeding 40 km/hr on the motorway. Motorcycles will be banned and people with a class 6 license will be incarcerated, just "because". Jaywalkers will be shot, and cyclists will have to replace their seat with a pink dildo that goes up their arse, so there's less chance of them falling off.

Kickaha

18th January 2012, 18:41

and cyclists will have to replace their seat with a pink dildo that goes up their arse, so there's less chance of them falling off.
You just convinced me to sell my MTB

James Deuce

18th January 2012, 18:42

Good. You'd just end up exercising anyway.

trustme

19th January 2012, 00:43

Yes. And you can't go comparing our style of regulated and controlled roads with countries where life is worth almost nothing and civilisation is some other countries with money buying primary produce and kitsch bullshit that you produce either as expensively or as cheaply as possible depending on how dependant the suckers are on your primary produce.

NZ is part of a European/North American tradition of highly regulated roads and roading systems with the car as the central construct of the ideal of personal freedom. Not a fucking scooter carrying 12 children and a chicken farm on roads where might makes right, and NZ's yearly road toll happens in an evening.

In that regard, Kiwis are the worst in the world. Absolutely fucking abysmal. The average Croatian looks like a highly skilled, very courteous well bred aristocrat compared to a bull-necked, nose picking, utterly oblivious New Zealand bred and taught mongrel. 5 minutes on a UK motorway taught me more about lane discipline than any driving instructor or relative, and 5 minutes on a French mountain pass taught me more about maintaining velocity while staying on your side of the road, in a low powered, faintly dodgy handling FIAT, than any driving instructor teaching me to mash the brakes in response to any and every hazard ever encountered by a 1976 Vauxhall Viva with an out of balance propshaft that came standard from the factory.

I can guarantee that I will be tailgated, cut up, bullied, and ignored, every single time I take to a NZ road. Have you ANY idea how disconcerting it is for 3 lanes of traffic on the North Circular, a main arterial for London, to stop to let you into a side street, WHEN THEY DON'T HAVE TO? I'd never seen any like it. Dense, dense congestion of the kind that makes Kiwis berserk and I got waved through. I sat there dribbling out of one corner of my mouth, while the chap closest to me gave me a friendly smile and a wave. The London-born mate in the car apologised for the chap's "obvious impatience".

After driving overseas for a year, the very first time I drove in Wellington a fuzzy haired dickhead leaps out of his car and smashes the rear windscreen of the car he was supposed to give way to.

We don't aspire to safe driving OR riding. We just sit on our ill-informed arses insisting that "someone" does "something" about "it".

Well now they are. Soon it will take six years to get a license, cost $40,000 and you'll lose it for exceeding 40 km/hr on the motorway. Motorcycles will be banned and people with a class 6 license will be incarcerated, just "because". Jaywalkers will be shot, and cyclists will have to replace their seat with a pink dildo that goes up their arse, so there's less chance of them falling off.

Nothing like a good rant , makes you feel so much better.:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

Pretty close to the mark, the fucktards are too dumb to see it

I'd like to think I live in a first world country, comparisons to the 3rd world !!!!:brick::brick::brick::brick:

StoneY

19th January 2012, 05:55

Cool. So we don't have to listen to who you were, what you did, or why the others gave you the arse, any more then?

Alright fucktard.
This is the way you want it to play out, I'm happy to stoop to your pathetic levels of personal attack in public, and in fact in person if you ever have the guts to be in when I call past again. Your shop was conveniently closed when I last passed through Taupo....what a shame.

In the 2 years I prezided over BRONZ Wellington, NO ONE ever offered me their arse Steve, despite you constantly begging me to suck your cock on the bling page I just aint as fascinated with my own cock as you obviously are. It gets plenty of attention when I need to piss through it without it ever needing to go within 2 inches of your festered mouth.

Now, tell us Steve, other than asking me to suck your cock like you have been, what have YOU done for the folks on this forum bar abuse, accuse, berate them? Hmmmm?

Have you arranged any charity rides?
Visited any MP's?
Attended any meetings on how we can actually reduce our injuries as opposed to wanking off on Kiwibiker?
Did you attend the Forum of Motorcycle Clubs and make suggestions to them?
Have you made any submissions to ACC, NZTA, or asked MOTO NZ to fund your idea?
Do you have a local group that mentors new riders, negotiates discounted training courses, and lobbies councils for better facilities?
HAVE YOU done ANY of this yet Steve?
No...didnt think so.

YOU might think I waltzed around from press interview to press interview asshole, but those who KNOW me also know the truth of what we in BRONZ Wellington have achieved. they also know how much it cost me.
I CHOSE to vacate the leadership, due to my own personal life needing more attention than the motorcycle world needed.

It seems to me that YOU, Steve, are the only person with a hangup about the role I held the last two years. Get the fuck OVER IT you jealous, nasty, horrible little man.
That's the kicker for you aint it Steve, no one listens to you, no one likes what you have to say at all so no one comes to ask your opinion do they?

Wanna put your fucking mouth where your typing fingers keep begging to go? Coz I have had enough of your abuse, your bullshit, and the stench of your posts, the haranguing and attempts to belittle the work good people have done while you sit in Taupo, full of piss and vinegar while you DO NOTHING!
Just another drunken tard with access to the internet.

Step up Steve, show us you have some balls. Go on.
Meet me halfway, we could sell tickets and put a new wire rope barrier in your town with the proceeds.
Got the balls you gutless little creep?

Clockwork

19th January 2012, 07:00

Katman

19th January 2012, 07:32

Nice rant Stoney.

The reality is that you were given the arse because a number of people saw you as a liability - someone whose sense of self-importance over-rode their ability to think before opening their mouth.

As for your threats - you remind me of that dpex character. He turned out to be full of piss and wind also.

MSTRS

19th January 2012, 07:47

Not much we can do about them though.
Why not? You'd have as much chance of convincing MrAverageDriver to up his game, as you would any motorcyclist.
It's not his driving/riding that is the problem, he's a paragon of virtue and skill. No - it's all those other fuckers out there.

Phew....Big rant

Yep - and about time too.

It's the frustration talking.
Frustration that the message is being ignored.
The one that says "You can't sort everybody else's shit out. But you can sort your own shit. But you're all too blind and stupid to see that you have, and do, the same shit as those you are so keen to bag."

It's a bit like AA, really. The 12 steps. Where the first step is Recognising You Have A Problem. Until you accept that, you're never going to progress to the 2nd step, Doing Something About It.

Clockwork

19th January 2012, 08:06

It's a bit like AA, really. The 12 steps. Where the first step is Recognising You Have A Problem. Until you accept that, you're never going to progress to the 2nd step, Doing Something About It.

So you can see that I have a problem because of my denial (well known that denial is the first stage)

And what you're really saying is that "just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you!"

I cant really argue with that.

oneofsix

19th January 2012, 08:07

Why not? You'd have as much chance of convincing MrAverageDriver to up his game, as you would any motorcyclist.
It's not his driving/riding that is the problem, he's a paragon of virtue and skill. No - it's all those other fuckers out there.

Yep, like 90% of the other road users out there I am in the top 10% in terms of ability and even better when drunk. :drinknsin

Katman

19th January 2012, 08:10

Why not? You'd have as much chance of convincing MrAverageDriver to up his game, as you would any motorcyclist.

I don't know about that John.

MrAverageDriver doesn't have a lot of incentive to up his game.

Motorcyclists, on the other hand, have their own well-being and the future of Motorcycling to consider.

MSTRS

19th January 2012, 08:36

So you can see that I have a problem because of my denial (well known that denial is the first stage)

No no cookie boy. Denial is part of the problem, not part of the solution...

And what you're really saying is that "just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you!"

They're not. Are they?

Yep, like 90% of the other road users out there I am in the top 10% in terms of ability and even better when drunk. :drinknsin
Oi, you. Shift over. You're making the top 10% too crowded for comfort...

MSTRS

19th January 2012, 10:25

Actually, another thread got me thinking. About parallels.
The BDOTGNZA labour mightily to impart a knowledge and use of correct grammar. With as much success as those who espouse improvements to riding skill as it pertains to roadcraft.

Until the wilfully ignorant find themselves wanking a horse, they don't care about changing their deep-seated habit/s...

Clockwork

19th January 2012, 10:39

My Uncle Jack died a couple of years ago. I don't think he ever rode a horse.

trustme

19th January 2012, 13:21

James Deuce

19th January 2012, 13:29

Sorry, ATTGATT doesn't do anything. The only thing it can help with is abrasion, and a helmet may prevent instantly fatal head injuries in very limited circumstances. Which is nice if you don't like skin grafts and a stupidity upgrade mod. I don't rely on gear to prevent life-threatening injuries because it simply doesn't work. I'm barely living proof.

Before the argument starts, you can't quantify if "high quality leather" gear prevented injury. I can prove that it causes injury.

NONONO

19th January 2012, 16:25

This morning I was passed on the harbour bridge by a guy on a late model BMW 1300, the one with the Orangutan bum tail light. Rider was wearing helmet, gloves,short sleeve shirt,shorts, boat shoes. A ' Safer Journey ' begins with ATGATT . Wailing that individually we can't do anything is rubbish or would you rather ATGATT was enforced by legislation .

Don't start me on scooter riders & their gear.

Been 34 years on a bike, never done the ATGATT thing, would be one of the few things that would probably stop me riding to be honest.
As for those who would pile more and more compliance on bikers; frequent testing, re testing, ATGATT, medicals, training, retraining, hi viz, floro, extra lights, super test centers, blah blah blah, kiss my arse.
Oh, and before the piss poor bleating starts..not one major off, not one ACC claim, not one attempt at "bleeding the country dry...lol'ed". Just ride my bike in the sure and certain knowledge that I am being ripped off, lied to and stolen from.
And the saddest thing is, those who continue to push the Smith and Joyce line of "it's all your own fault" and "it's for your own good"...pfffft.
And those of you who repeat and repeat and repost the message;
http://youtu.be/Ow0lr63y4Mw
Jeez, I lol'ed.....

Qkchk

19th January 2012, 20:38

Alright fucktard.
This is the way you want it to play out, I'm happy to stoop to your pathetic levels of personal attack in public, and in fact in person if you ever have the guts to be in when I call past again. Your shop was conveniently closed when I last passed through Taupo....what a shame.

Got the balls you gutless little creep?

Nice rant Stoney.

The reality is that you were given the arse because a number of people saw you as a liability - someone whose sense of self-importance over-rode their ability to think before opening their mouth.

As for your threats - you remind me of that dpex character. He turned out to be full of piss and wind also.

Seems I haven't missed much on here....... :rofl:

Qkchk

19th January 2012, 20:44

Dunno if this has already been posted or not but I can't be fagged sifting through 10 pages of name calling crap! When I come back on here and see this bitch fighting going on, it reminds me why I stay off KB these days!

Anyway, here is the DRAFT for the Safer Journeys for Motorcycling for the guys and gals who ride and don't :bash:

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/consultation/draft-safer-journeys-for-motorcycling-guide/

Virago

19th January 2012, 20:47

Qkchk

19th January 2012, 20:55

The link given in post 1...? :innocent:

I think that was referring to consultation?

It has now been 'updated' as stated 10 Jan 2012.

Not sure what changes have been made from the original.

blue rider

19th January 2012, 21:00

quote from http://www.nzta.govt.nz/about/who-and-what/what-we-do/safer-journeys

How will the pilot project inform the Motorcycling Safety Guide?
The purpose of the Thames-Coromandel pilot project is to determine and implement suitable interventions and road safety improvements for motorcyclists using the Safe System approach, with the intent of enhancing road safety and minimising motorcycle crash risk.

This pilot route is a 130 km loop of state highways popular amongst recreational motorcyclists. This includes SH 25A Kopu to Hikuai, SH 25 Hikuai to Waihi, SH 2 Waihi to Paeroa and SH26 Paeroa to Kopu.

Safety enhancements to the roads and roadsides along the route are expected to include interventions such as surface treatments, signage, markings, hazard removal/protection.
The safe speed component of the project is expected to be investigated at a later
date. However, there may be a speed management trial included in the project and
will be based around ‘perceptual countermeasures’, using road marking and differencial length edge marker posts.

So thats what the 90 km/hr new Safety Speed Zone is about on SH2 - i thought it was there to increase Road Rage amongst the four wheeled drivers. Silly me - got confused again. :facepalm:

Conquiztador

19th January 2012, 21:19

So thats what the 90 km/hr new Safety Speed Zone is about on SH2 - i thought it was there to increase Road Rage amongst the four wheeled drivers. Silly me - got confused again. :facepalm:

Well see... if these measures are done properly there is a good probablility that the result can cover more than one outcome. In this instance I can see the following ones as possibilities (please note, the writer is at no time stating that this list is comprahensive):
- Increase in overtaking without required 100m free visibility. (Can provide additional income for the government)
- Increase in tailgating and less than required distance betweeh vehicles. (Can provide additional income for the government)
- A higher likelyhood that the speed limit is breached. (Can provide additional income for the government)
- Increase in accidents as a result of more frustrated drivers taking more risks. (Can provide additional income for the government)

Katman

19th January 2012, 21:23

Well see... if these measures are done properly there is a good probablility that the result can cover more than one outcome. In this instance I can see the following ones as possibilities (please note, the writer is at no time stating that this list is comprahensive):
- Increase in overtaking without required 100m free visibility. (Can provide additional income for the government)
- Increase in tailgating and less than required distance betweeh vehicles. (Can provide additional income for the government)
- A higher likelyhood that the speed limit is breached. (Can provide additional income for the government)
- Increase in accidents as a result of more frustrated drivers taking more risks. (Can provide additional income for the government)

I think you'll find that last example would provide the direct opposite for the government.

Ocean1

19th January 2012, 21:44

And the saddest thing is, those who continue to push the Smith and Joyce line of "it's all your own fault" and "it's for your own good"...pfffft.

Welcome to the ranks of the rational anarchist.

Must be a yearning deep in human heart to stop other people from doing as they please. Rules, laws — always for other fellow. A murky part of us, something we had before we came down out of trees, and failed to shuck when we stood up. Because not one of those people said: Please pass this so that I won't be able to do something I know I should stop. Nyet, tovarishchee, was always something they hated to see neighbors doing. Stop them for their own good.

Conquiztador

19th January 2012, 21:50

I think you'll find that last example would provide the direct opposite for the government.

My logic has at a very few occasions proven to be faulty, thou here the angle was that accidents would be caused and therefore the drivers be charged and end up paying fines. I do recognise that, depending on the severity of the accident, there might be a cost to the government assiciated with this. However, I am fully expecting the next step to be that the one causing the accident would be held fully liable for any costs as a result (including police time and mileage for their vehicles, emergency crews, repairs to road, hospital costs, and list goes on) as part of the National "user pay's" strategy they are adapting.

So the really cynical bit of me sees this all as a small part of getting the country out of financial trouble...

riffer

19th January 2012, 21:54

So the really cynical bit of me sees this all as a small part of getting the country out of financial trouble...

Doesn't really work that way. You take money from one sector of the economy it depresses another sector.

blue rider

19th January 2012, 22:07

Doesn't really work that way. You take money from one sector of the economy it depresses another sector.

And does this matter? The economy is depressed one way or another. For the government in our current times what is of importance is the amount of tax paid.

Were the current government to legislate compulsory vehicle insurance (incl. 3 party) on any motorized vehicle (incl. the moped at only 25 km/hr) than at first sight your assumption is correct. Money will be taken, and given to an insurance instead of being spent elsewhere in the economy.

However, if every vehicle owner has to buy insurance than this will pretty much immediately result in two sources of earnings for the state.

A. GST on any policy purchased - a very convenient Tax if ever there was one, every time your policy goes up, so goes the Tax component paid and the revenue gathered by the State. A silent tax, that is not often debated.

B. reduced spending on the points raised by Conquiztator, and why would the government not charge Rescue Costs etc to the Insurance that holds your policy.....third party n all.

Conquiztador

19th January 2012, 22:08

Doesn't really work that way. You take money from one sector of the economy it depresses another sector.

Allow me to clarify: Our government is spending more than they make. Their income is mainly taxing us. In all the different ways they can come up with. Increasing GST takes money not from companies, but the families of this country. And why was the GST increased... not to give us more money to spend but to help our Government pay their bills (yeah OK, "our" bills if you like). So fines are same logic (yeah OK, we know that they are not revenue gathering...hmphhh). So you see, even if I fully understand your point (and it has some merit), the reality is that fines are not just taking money from one sector of the economy that then depresses another sector.