Safer Journeys for Motorcycling

[Berries]

NZTA have just released their draft document on how to deal with road safety for motorcyclists. They are looking for comments so now is an opportunity to get your view across to them.

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/consultation/draft-safer-journeys-for-motorcycling-guide/index.html

[Swoop]

2.2.1 Scandinavian research 4 indicates that, even if all road users complied with all road rules, fatalities would only fall by around 50% and serious crashes by 30%. Putting this in a New Zealand context, if everybody obeyed all the road rules, there would still be around 200 road deaths each year (based on present fatalities).

It is interesting that our authorities fail to realise this. They continue as if "zero deaths" is an achievable target.

[Katman]

It is interesting that our authorities fail to realise this. They continue as if "zero deaths" is an achievable target.

Almost as interesting as people like yourself who don't seem to give a fuck how high the toll is.

[Bassmatt]

The Safe System approach

Safer Journeys introduces the Safe System approach towards road safety. It represents a fundamental shift in the way we think about, and act upon, road safety. It recognises that:

People will always make mistakes and that crashes are inevitable.
The human body has a limited capacity to withstand crash forces
The whole system needs to be managed to make the road transport network more accommodating of human error.

This requires a shared responsibility among road controlling authorities, policy makers, motorcyclists, the vehicle industry, and central and local governments.

What about other road users? Do they not have to share in the responsibility?

[5150]

Perhaps another justification for our beloved ACC minister Prick Smith to increase our ACC levies again? :yawn:

[MSTRS]

The Safe System approach

Safer Journeys introduces the Safe System approach towards road safety. It represents a fundamental shift in the way we think about, and act upon, road safety. It recognises that:

People will always make mistakes and that crashes are inevitable.
The human body has a limited capacity to withstand crash forces
The whole system needs to be managed to make the road transport network more accommodating of human error.

This requires a shared responsibility among road controlling authorities, policy makers, motorcyclists, the vehicle industry, and central and local governments.

What about other road users? Do they not have to share in the responsibility?

Excellent point. And amply illustrates the subtle forms of anti-motorcycle propaganda that are rife in this country.
Make a submission to that effect.

[Paul in NZ]

I dunno - I must have read a billion documents like this. Lots of nice words designed to disguise the fact that there is feck all 'we will' and dates by which this WILL be done and where the $$ is coming from.

I fell asleep ......

[Bassmatt]

Im getting worried now...
speed is managed to safe levels through more appropriate speed limits, self-explaining roads that encourage safe speeds and devices such as intelligent speed assist:shit:

[Swoop]

Almost as interesting as people like yourself who don't seem to give a fuck how high the toll is.
Perhaps I do?

Maybe I'm a realist? At least the Scandinavians have some common sense left.

[Berries]

Im getting worried now...
speed is managed to safe levels through more appropriate speed limits, self-explaining roads that encourage safe speeds and devices such as intelligent speed assist:shit:
I Imagine ISA will go on trucks first, then cars, then motorbikes, but there are a lot of hurdles for any government to get over before they start implementing that kind of thing.


What about other road users? Do they not have to share in the responsibility?
I think the point of putting a draft document out is to get feedback like that, to them though as it is pointless writing on here. I did think the same thing myself a couple of times btw.

[Renegade]

Almost as interesting as people like yourself who don't seem to give a fuck how high the toll is.

I dont give a fuck how high it is, while it would be nice to have it low i accept that i cant control other peoples fuck ups, only my own, nor can i control fate, and unless we all drive slot cars then there will be fucks ups/ deaths, even then slot cars come off the track eh.

[Katman]

I dont give a fuck how high it is, while it would be nice to have it low i accept that i cant control other peoples fuck ups, only my own, nor can i control fate, and unless we all drive slot cars then there will be fucks ups/ deaths, even then slot cars come off the track eh.

Let's see if you're still singing the same tune when you're stuck with riding around on a 125 because the government has decided that bigger motorcycles are too dangerous and we can't be trusted on them.

[The Singing Chef]

Hay bales and foam pits around every corner, dividing barrier through the middle of the road around 10cm high so that cars don't cross the bloody thing.
Motorcyclists only roads, proper roads... the list goes on. ;)

[oneofsix]

Im getting worried now...
speed is managed to safe levels through more appropriate speed limits, self-explaining roads that encourage safe speeds and devices such as intelligent speed assist:shit:

Expect more of asleep at the wheel drivers
http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/motoring/6101155/Fatigue-related-crash-claims-up

As expected they put is down to fatigue, I put it down to boredom. The more they slow you down when it is not require the more the drivers brain will shutdown (asleep) or find other things to do (distracted).

[Brian d marge]

Let's see if you're still singing the same tune when you're stuck with riding around on a 125 because the government has decided that bigger motorcycles are too dangerous and we can't be trusted on them.

BSA Bantam ...hell yes

Stephen

[Big Dave]

Thanks - I've posted it on the KR site too.

[martybabe]

The Safe System approach



What about other road users? Do they not have to share in the responsibility?

Exactly, I spotted that glaring omission straight away. If the compilers of this document can miss from the outset the fundamental premise that other road users have an effect on Motorcycle safety then the whole study is flawed and of little worth. Better driving standards across the board are an essential part of safer motorcycle journeys.


Im getting worried now...
devices such as intelligent speed assist:shit:

Another total lack of understanding IMO. This once again illustrates the school of thinking that we crash because we go to fast, for to fast read 'over the speed limit' :facepalm:

Anecdotal of course, I am not the government and therefore do not have lots of statistics at my disposal to manipulate or lie about , but: in 34 years as a motorcyclist, truck driver,advanced emergency vehicle driver and attender to more vehicle accidents than nick smith has had hot dinners, On roads across the world, I have never seen one accident happen solely because a speed limit has been exceeded, never. This is all an intelligent speed assist device will detect and as such it's effect on reducing fatal motorcycle accidents would be negligible at best.

Inattention, poor risk assessment, inappropriate speed, poor road and weather conditions, risk taking (especially overtaking or pulling out of junctions),poor skills and on and on and on. In short better driving/riding and improved road quality design and maintenance is where gains can be made in road safety.

On a fairly regular basis I legally drove at up to 224 KPH in the UK without killing myself or anyone else, the view that all our problems on the road stem from people breaking the speed limit is ignorant stupid and blinkered and the constant focus on that aspect is frustratingly drawing attention away from the real cause of fatal accidents 'bad driving'.

[riffer]

I've been spending a number of hours pouring through this document (as part of my BRONZ role), and haven't made my mind up about it yet.

Yes, there are some points that need to be raised and you SHOULD raise them with NZTA.

Some interesting points as well to note:

Suggesting the we phase in "limiting travel to roads where there is segregation from heavier vehicles or where the travel speeds of those vehicles, and motorcyclists is below a survivable limit - probably on the order of 40-50 km/hr with current protective technologies."

Figure 3.6 New motorcycle/moped registration numbers vs. crash numbers. Motorcycle and moped sales plummeted by 50% over 18 months. I would be keen to see relicensing figures too, but I imagine it's followed a similar trend. Therefore completely eliminating any possible extra income from ACC (which is what the rego increases where supposed to do) with at beast a 5% reduction in crashes. This is the smoking gun to prove the FAILED POLICY.

There is also some great recommendations in this report too - in fact it well outweighs the negative.

From what I've read so far, it's better than what I expected. We do need to be vigilant though.

[riffer]

Another thing.

If you want to know the ACTUAL crash data they are using,

The road safety reporting tool (http://www.smartmovez.org.nz/__data/assets/excel_doc/0016/55123/Safety_Analysis_Tool_v2.0.xls) (BETA test version) is available. It:



looks at fatal and serious crashes right down to suburb level
is based on the last 5 years of comprehensive data crash from CAS, the Crash Analysis System
provides visibility of crash factors, road type, light and weather conditions
generates a table or a chart that may be downloaded

You can find the page here:

http://www.smartmovez.org.nz/<wbr>references/refs/data/road_<wbr>safety_wizard?SQ_PAINT_LAYOUT_<wbr>NAME=order_form (http://www.smartmovez.org.nz/references/refs/data/road_safety_wizard?SQ_PAINT_LAYOUT_NAME=order_form )

This is an Excel spreadsheet with macro front end that lets you search through all the data with quite clever sorting. Try it out.

[riffer]

... I have never seen one accident happen solely because a speed limit has been exceeded, never. This is all an intelligent speed assist device will detect and as such it's effect on reducing fatal motorcycle accidents would be negligible at best.

Agree, and disagree with you.

Speeding is not a causative factor in accidents; it's an aggravating factor.

I don't see Speeding as a Cause of Accident mentioned in the report at all.

But plenty to suggest that it makes things worse if things go bad.

I think people need to lose the chip on the shoulder over this one. Some bad ads have left a nasty impression on all of us.

And I include NZ Police in that as well.

[Berries]

And the first thing that will happen when electronic speed control is introduced, many many years from now, is that they will drop the speed limits closer to what they are calling harm minimisation and harm reduction speeds. And that would make a dent in the road toll. Be boring as hell though.

[riffer]

And the first thing that will happen when electronic speed control is introduced, many many years from now, is that they will drop the speed limits closer to what they are calling harm minimisation and harm reduction speeds. And that would make a dent in the road toll. Be boring as hell though.

40-50km/hr?

They've stated quite specifically in the report that the country cannot afford the hit on productivity.

[davereid]

This is much simpler than you imagine.

First they will rate vehicles in terms of accident survivability.

So 5 star, 4 star, 3 star, 2 star, 1 star, cyclist, pedestrian, motorcyclist in order of survivability.

Then they will tax (acc) vehicles that are less safe in a crash in the same order except cyclists and pedestrians are free

Then they will introduce variable road rules based on survivability.

If your vehicle protects you from a head on at a combined speed of 200 km/h you may use highways without a median barrier.
If your vehicle protects you from a head on at a combined speed of 100 km/h you may use 50 km/hr roads without a median barrier.
If you have a separate path ie cycleway or footpath you may travel without that restriction

etc

Safer journeys is about accepting accidents will occur, and eliminating forms of transport that cant protect you from the inevitable accident.

[BMWST?]

The Safe System approach

This requires a shared responsibility among road controlling authorities, policy makers, motorcyclists, the vehicle industry, and central and local governments.

What about other road users? Do they not have to share in the responsibility?

It is a document about motorcycling.Thats why other vehicles are not mentioned

[riffer]

Safer journeys is about accepting accidents will occur, and eliminating forms of transport that cant protect you from the inevitable accident.
FFS. No it's not.

How many of you trolls have even bothered reading the report?

[riffer]

It is a document about motorcycling.Thats why other vehicles are not mentioned

Thank you. Sounds like you may have read it.

[martybabe]

Agree, and disagree with you.

Speeding is not a causative factor in accidents; it's an aggravating factor.

I don't see Speeding as a Cause of Accident mentioned in the report at all.

But plenty to suggest that it makes things worse if things go bad.

I think people need to lose the chip on the shoulder over this one. Some bad ads have left a nasty impression on all of us.

And I include NZ Police in that as well.

Yeah, I was simply trying to point out that believing that physically restricting vehicles to the speed limit is or maybe a cure all is pure folly, there are much bigger and more important issues involved in improving road safety and that is where the focus should be.

I welcome the study and am an advocate of safer roads for us all, I'm just hoping it's done intelligently and without prejudice.

Some good/informative posts there mate.

[BMWST?]

"
'Safer Journeys for Motorcyclists' will:
provide guidance on the implementation of safety treatments on high-risk motorcycling routes
reflect international best-practice, input from stakeholders, and the results of pilot projects, and
provide advice on how to identify, assess and prioritise high-risk routes using crash data and input from riders and other key stakeholders.

The guide has been developed with input from stakeholders who represent a variety of interests and perspectives. This not only includes delivery agent NZ Transport Agency, but also key stakeholders such as MOTO NZ (Motorcyclists Own The Options), road controlling authorities, and ACC.The safety guide is intended for all audiences interested in increasing motorcycling safety, but does focus primarily on safe roads and roadsides, and so would be of particular interest to road controlling authorities.Our goal
While we ideally want to achieve a zero fatality rate for motorcyclists, we’ve set a goal to bring NZ into line with overseas jurisdictions which have the best safety record, such as the Australian state of Victoria."

[dmc]

I think there is alot of positive things in there, whether it will achieve anything who knows?

Trying to get the muppets that ride like complete idiots or don't wear suitable protective gear to comply maybe a stretch but atleast they are talking about it. I reckon most people serious about riding do their best to make themselves safe but a ride to Little River on the weekend showed that the percentage of moron's on bikes and cars is still pretty high :facepalm:

They may also have their work cut out for them around the goals they have on road surface in Canterbury, I can drive 5kms in any direction and find every issue they list and thats a good road ;)

[Hitcher]

This is much simpler than you imagine.

First they will rate vehicles in terms of accident survivability.

So 5 star, 4 star, 3 star, 2 star, 1 star, cyclist, pedestrian, motorcyclist in order of survivability.

Then they will tax (acc) vehicles that are less safe in a crash in the same order except cyclists and pedestrians are free

Then they will introduce variable road rules based on survivability.

If your vehicle protects you from a head on at a combined speed of 200 km/h you may use highways without a median barrier.
If your vehicle protects you from a head on at a combined speed of 100 km/h you may use 50 km/hr roads without a median barrier.
If you have a separate path ie cycleway or footpath you may travel without that restriction

etc

Safer journeys is about accepting accidents will occur, and eliminating forms of transport that cant protect you from the inevitable accident.

Sadly I agree with this. Motorcyclists are in the unenviable position of having to play a game that has been shaped by professional policy wonks. Play and we lose. Choose not to play, we still lose.

Also I think a major oversight in this report is that it just doesn't get why motorcyclists ride motorcycles. While we don't do it with the expectation of getting injured, maimed or dead, those are risks that we accept. Throwing safety statistics around, irrespective of how accurate or realistic they may be, only supports the case for those who would like to see motorcycling, and indeed any avoidable dangerous activity, banned or massively restricted. Look at tobacco and the consumption thereof.

There's a freedom of informed choice argument that needs to be made here. It's an argument I am currently crafting. It's an argument that will go nowhere at all in this debate but it's one that I need to advance. No other contrary view is going to go anywhere either but that's no reason not to make a point.

Ultimately I think that we motorcyclists are about to be seriously done to. Any contrary view about road safety, speed, rider skills, motorcycle safety features, Smidsys, whatever, is an unwinnable one. Let's enjoy our remaining days of freedom while we can.

[riffer]

There's a freedom of informed choice argument that needs to be made here. It's an argument I am currently crafting. It's an argument that will go nowhere at all in this debate but it's one that I need to advance. No other contrary view is going to go anywhere either but that's no reason not to make a point ... Let's enjoy our remaining days of freedom while we can.

Good luck with that one Brett. It hasn't worked anywhere else.

And sadly, I agree with you on the final statement. I'm a third generation motorcyclist. While my children are pillioning, and learning to ride themselves, I definitely don't think their children (a good 10 years away at best) will struggle to be motorcyclists. Cars are going the same way too, along with many of our previously enjoyed freedoms.

[dmc]

Maybe if the motorcycle manufacturers backed motorcyclist like the arms manufactures back the NRA in the US we wouldn't get walked all over like we do. It amazes me that the companies that need us to buy their bikes aren't putting more pressure on Governments as ultimately they need us to bike their bikes.

[Katman]

Maybe if the motorcycle manufacturers backed motorcyclist like the arms manufactures back the NRA in the US we wouldn't get walked all over like we do. It amazes me that the companies that need us to buy their bikes aren't putting more pressure on Governments as ultimately they need us to bike their bikes.

New Zealand barely even registers on the manufacturers sales sheets.

[Hitcher]

Maybe if the motorcycle manufacturers backed motorcyclist like the arms manufactures back the NRA in the US we wouldn't get walked all over like we do. It amazes me that the companies that need us to buy their bikes aren't putting more pressure on Governments as ultimately they need us to bike their bikes.

Firstly New Zealand hasn't got a Constitution. Or a Constitution with an ambiguously worded amendment about the right to bear arms. Kiwis can't pronounce the word properly anyway, and probably already think they've got a right to bare arms.

Secondly, on a global basis, motorcycle sales in New Zealand are a rounding error. Yamaha doesn't care about the New Zealand market, neither does Aprilia. They don't need us to buy their bikes.

[dmc]

Yes yes I know where we sit in the scheme of things and being in the automotive industry before I know how small a percentage we make up, but saying that these companies still give a shit about any country they are in or they wouldn't be here so its in their best interest to support the people they buy their bikes.
Its not like its limited to just NZ so you would still think that they would use their influence to support their customers so the dealer networks return as much profit as they can.

[rustic101]

Can someone remind me of the MOTONZ purpose again?

Sam

[dmc]

Can someone remind me of the MOTONZ purpose again?

Sam

Wasn't it something to do with poop?

[riffer]

Not relevant.

Safer Journeys is not a MOTONZ initiative. It's NZTA.

[Berries]

40-50km/hr?

They've stated quite specifically in the report that the country cannot afford the hit on productivity.
Yes, I have read it. That is why I said "closer to".

The problem with Safer Journeys is that Safe Users requires education and law changes to alter the mentality, so is years away. As a small country we can't do a lot regarding Safe Vehicles and we aren't going to ban all vehicles over five years old. Providing Safe Roads and Roadsides would be such a monumental cost across our network, and there is so little money available, that route improvements will take many years which leaves Safe Speeds.

For the price of a few signs you can bang up an 80km/h speed limit where it is currently 100km/h and sit back with your feet up. If you got any kind of compliance over a large enough network then you would likely see a reduction in trauma. If you don't get compliance, and I don't think you will by slapping up a couple of signs or two, the solution is easy - you send the Police in to enforce the shit out of it. The only downside to this is the millions of dollars of extra revenue that the government will receive and have to deal with.

So that won't happen.

[oneofsix]

Yes, I have read it. That is why I said "closer to".

The problem with Safer Journeys is that Safe Users requires education and law changes to alter the mentality, so is years away. As a small country we can't do a lot regarding Safe Vehicles and we aren't going to ban all vehicles over five years old. Providing Safe Roads and Roadsides would be such a monumental cost across our network, and there is so little money available, that route improvements will take many years which leaves Safe Speeds.

For the price of a few signs you can bang up an 80km/h speed limit where it is currently 100km/h and sit back with your feet up. If you got any kind of compliance over a large enough network then you would likely see a reduction in trauma. If you don't get compliance, and I don't think you will by slapping up a couple of signs or two, the solution is easy - you send the Police in to enforce the shit out of it. The only downside to this is the millions of dollars of extra revenue that the government will receive and have to deal with.

So that won't happen.

You missed a real down side. An 80k road doesn't have to be maintained to the same standard as an 100k road therefore you save money on maintenance, but because the road condition then deteriorates to match the speed limit it ends up being no safer. :facepalm: You have however cut costs for this term and achieved your departmental KPI for now.

[riffer]

You missed a real down side. An 80k road doesn't have to be maintained to the same standard as an 100k road therefore you save money on maintenance, but because the road condition then deteriorates to match the speed limit it ends up being no safer. :facepalm: You have however cut costs for this term and achieved your departmental KPI for now.

Have you read the report?

[Berries]

You have however cut costs for this term and achieved your departmental KPI for now.
I love it when a plan comes together.

[oneofsix]

Have you read the report?

What?! and post an informed opinion on KB :rofl:

BTW the first paragraph screams propaganda. Judge them by their action not their words. And int he past waht do you get? lower speed limits and worse maintained roads

[Bald Eagle]

They may also have their work cut out for them around the goals they have on road surface in Canterbury, I can drive 5kms in any direction and find every issue they list and thats a good road ;)

My daily commute from Kapiti to Welly ( on a Road of National significance) encounters all road engineering issues multiple times. Case in point the observation about vegetation and unrestricted sight lines through intersections had me rolling about laughing. The Mana roundabout on SH 1 is full of lovely plants. When this was raised with NZTA as a hazard the response was that it is "a deliberate traffic calming method" . :brick::crazy:

[riffer]

Then there would be a lot of people in New Zealand, and a number of people in motorcycling, who will be well pissed off if that's all that comes out of this report, because I believe that it's one of the better ones to come out in the last twenty years.

Sure, there's stuff in there we don't want to hear, and don't want to happen.

But I genuinely don't think that's the aim of this report.

[riffer]

My daily commute from Kapiti to Welly ( on a Road of National significance) encounters all road engineering issues multiple times. Case in point the observation about vegetation and unrestricted sight lines through intersections had me rolling about laughing. The Mana roundabout on SH 1 is full of lovely plants. When this was raised with NZTA as a hazard the response was that it is "a deliberate traffic calming method" . :brick::crazy:

Sounds like a different communication approach would be beneficial Paul. How about we retarget NZTA on this one, citing page 42 of the Report, where they show the dangers of obstructed sightlines?

[riffer]

I would love to see something in writing from NZTA actually stating that they have a policy of reducing sightlines in order to calm traffic.

[MSTRS]

I would love to see something in writing from NZTA actually stating that they have a policy of reducing sightlines in order to calm traffic.

Wait awhile - it'll come.

2-3 years ago, I spoke with a NZTA rep who told me about their policy re removing roadside hazards. Basically it boiled down to "A motorist doesn't deserve to die because they make a mistake".
Only recently has this been put in print for public consumption.

[riffer]

Wait awhile - it'll come.

2-3 years ago, I spoke with a NZTA rep who told me about their policy re removing roadside hazards. Basically it boiled down to "A motorist doesn't deserve to die because they make a mistake".
Only recently has this been put in print for public consumption.

I think you misunderstand. My post referred to Bald Eagle's statement that NZTA had said they were using overgrown vegetation (thus reducing sightlines) as a method of calming traffic. Such statements seem to be in direct contravention with NZTA's Report which stresses that reducing vegetation in order to create better sightlines for motorcyclists would have a beneficial outcome for motorcyclists.

[allycatz]

Sounds like a different communication approach would be beneficial Paul. How about we retarget NZTA on this one, citing page 42 of the Report, where they show the dangers of obstructed sightlines?

Interesting comment...when the over planted and too tall vegetation on a the round-a-bout in Ihakara St (Kapiti) proved to be a hazard, the residents from Metlife Village yelled loudly at the council and it was trimmed. I wonder if motorcylists had complained it would of gotten the same result

[MSTRS]

I think you misunderstand. My post referred to Bald Eagle's statement that NZTA had said they were using overgrown vegetation (thus reducing sightlines) as a method of calming traffic. Such statements seem to be in direct contravention with NZTA's Report which stresses that reducing vegetation in order to create better sightlines for motorcyclists would have a beneficial outcome for motorcyclists.

Oh no, I do understand.
What I tried (badly?) to say is that what they say is policy doesn't always match what is in print...

[riffer]

Interesting comment...when the over planted and too tall vegetation on a the round-a-bout in Ihakara St (Kapiti) proved to be a hazard, the residents from Metlife Village yelled loudly at the council and it was trimmed. I wonder if motorcylists had complained it would of gotten the same result

Well, when we approached NZTA regarding the barbed wire on the cheescutters in Kaikoura, they had it sorted within 48 hours.

[rustic101]

Not relevant.

Safer Journeys is not a MOTONZ initiative. It's NZTA.

Bullshit its very relevant.

MOTONZ have communicated with me directly (I have numerous emails from Phil Wright and co) which very clearly state they (MOTO"NZ) were establish and support work not being done by any other group or Agency. Even their web states this between all the bull shit (MOTO NZ has been established with a simple purpose: to use the funds gathered from motorcyclists and other riders to make riding safer.)".

I have challenged them on this several times as most if not all of their Work/ Projects/ Bullshit is already being done or has been done by other Agencies. NZTA is just one example, if Safer Journeys (Motorcycling) is not about rider safety then fuck I must be a real muppet! ergo:

Safer Journeys for Motorcycling' in a nutshell
The 'Safer Journeys for Motorcycling' guide reflects the Safe System approach. It considers motorcycling safety from the perspective of:

safe roads and roadsides
safe road use
safe speed, and
safe vehicles.

'Safer Journeys for Motorcyclists' will:

provide guidance on the implementation of safety treatments on high-risk motorcycling routes
reflect international best-practice, input from stakeholders, and the results of pilot projects, and
provide advice on how to identify, assess and prioritise high-risk routes using crash data and input from riders and other key stakeholders.
BTW, C.A.S has not been used for some time, there is a new system in place.

[cheshirecat]

And here (http://www.devon.gov.uk/bikers)in Devon where they be all hedgerows and some pretty fast A roads, they are taking the initiative which might serve as a guidence to the powers.
Note things like the European Standard for skid resistance of manhole covers is EN124, ie they have one. Do we?
Traffic calming got one point and rider education got 242 when riders were asked on the problems of MC accident prevention.

[Berries]

BTW, C.A.S has not been used for some time, there is a new system in place.
Nah. There is a slimline version under development which is referred to in post 19, but CAS is still very much the tool being used.

As for your other comments, I laughed at the way 'Motorcyclists Own the Options' are portrayed in the document as if they represent motorcyclists. Does the compulsory taking of my hard earned give them that authority? Stand them on their own two feet requiring voluntary paid membership and we'll see how they go. So far I have seen nothing from them so I can't say I am disappointed as that is what I was expecting.

[davereid]

...MOTONZ have communicated with me directly ... which very clearly state they (MOTO"NZ) were establish and support work not being done by any other group or Agency. Even their web states this between all the bull shit (MOTO NZ has been established with a simple purpose: to use the funds gathered from motorcyclists and other riders to make riding safer.)".

I couldnt agree with you more about MOTO-NZ who in my opinion are taking the money acquired, and simply using it to to do research and fund systems that were already funded by ACC or NZTA who must be laughing their budgetary heads off.

I'm a bit more cautious around safer journeys. While it says all the right things, it often pays to look at what is not said, and what has changed.

So what has changed ?

Safer journeys acknowledges that people f up, and therefore sets up a best practice model to make the effects of an f-up less significant.

I see this as very scary for people who knowingly choose a form of transport (possibly) 18 times more likely to result in injury than the safest cars.

It also talks about "transport" as if thats all vehicles are. It thus excludes all the other reasons people may own vehicles.

In fact my elderly auntie chose her car for transport. But I choose vehicles with transport as the 3rd 4th or 5th criteria.

I ride (3) different motorcycles regularly because I LIKE them. I ride another two SOMETIMES because I like them, but they are a transport liability. I have old cars, V8s and all sorts of impratical vehicles because I like them.


So, I see that safer journeys will make different assessments than I make. And that as I choose non ideal transport, I will be penalised.

[Hitcher]

Don't get distracted by who has authored this report or who should have authored it with whose money. That is irrelevant.

What is important is that this report exists and it will be used to create government policy, if that task hasn't already been done. Remember that a submission process isn't about democracy in the sense that an election or referendum is. Submissions are about uncovering ideas and possible solutions that policy wonks haven't. Submissions are about tweaking, not about significant change. Submissions are about letting people have their say. They will all get entered into a spreadsheet and "analysed".

Moto NZ is a sop that was spawned by the Bikoi. Its representativeness is questionable, particularly any implied mandate it may have to speak on behalf of motorcyclists. Its agenda is not within its own control. It will follow an easy path for as long as it is funded. Not that this matters a jot in terms of the issue currently before us.

[BMWST?]

look no further than the roundabouts at Maungaraki overpass for restricted sightlines,or the newish roundabout at the sh1 exit to tawa .ASs you come to the roundabout you cannot get a clear sighline to the right because of grass/and the bank.I think the contour of the bank is deliberate tp blocjk the view of the road

[riffer]

look no further than the roundabouts at Maungaraki overpass for restricted sightlines,or the newish roundabout at the sh1 exit to tawa .ASs you come to the roundabout you cannot get a clear sighline to the right because of grass/and the bank.I think the contour of the bank is deliberate tp blocjk the view of the road

Good points. I will discuss these with those I know at NZTA on Tuesday.

[riffer]

Don't get distracted by who has authored this report or who should have authored it with whose money. That is irrelevant.

What is important is that this report exists and it will be used to create government policy, if that task hasn't already been done. Remember that a submission process isn't about democracy in the sense that an election or referendum is. Submissions are about uncovering ideas and possible solutions that policy wonks haven't. Submissions are about tweaking, not about significant change. Submissions are about letting people have their say. They will all get entered into a spreadsheet and "analysed".

Moto NZ is a sop that was spawned by the Bikoi. Its representativeness is questionable, particularly any implied mandate it may have to speak on behalf of motorcyclists. Its agenda is not within its own control. It will follow an easy path for as long as it is funded. Not that this matters a jot in terms of the issue currently before us.

True, true and true. We need to find out the stuff they haven't thought of.

[Paul in NZ]

In many ways I feel sick to my stomach when I read that report. Motorcycling is close to becoming 'unacceptable' and will I fear be like all working class 'fun' strangled until all the fun is sucked out and the oiks kicked back into approved activities....

[davereid]

In many ways I feel sick to my stomach when I read that report. Motorcycling is close to becoming 'unacceptable' and will I fear be like all working class 'fun' strangled until all the fun is sucked out and the oiks kicked back into approved activities....

Yep.

Its like another report "safer smoking".

[rastuscat]

Yep.

Its like another report "safer smoking".

.........and safe sex.

Ho hum. More bitching asnd grizzling about papers that are written which have bugger all effect in the short term.

Day to day, the only thing that makes a difference is how safe we make ourselves. Waiting for other motorists or some bureaucrat to make us safer is like waiting for paint to dry. Difference is, paint eventually dries.

I want to be safer in 10 minutes, when I ride my bike next. Only I can do that.

[Rover]

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/consultation/draft-safer-journeys-for-motorcycling-guide/index.html


NZTA have release this discussion document, it's worth reading and dispels many of the urban legends on who is at fault and why.
What was interesting for me was motorcyclists as a group were 6th out of 7 (page 9) as the target of improving motorcycle safety, and the main focus on motorcyclist was enforcement.
Understanding the issues is the first step towards curing a problem, this is a good document regarding understanding what is really going on.

[Virago]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/144689-Safer-Journeys-for-Motorcycling

[AD345]

I want to be safer in 10 minutes, when I ride my bike next. Only I can do that.

Safer than what?

[Blackbird]

Day to day, the only thing that makes a difference is how safe we make ourselves. Waiting for other motorists or some bureaucrat to make us safer is like waiting for paint to dry. Difference is, paint eventually dries.


Well said:yes:. The cynic in me says that a good percentage of motorcyclists either don't know how to ride particularly well, don't realise they're not riding well or don't care whether they do or not. Not much different from the group we all like to criticise - car drivers. The only sure way to find out whether we're riding well is a periodic assessment by a qualified 3rd party and I'm picking that not many people do that.

Much of the solution is in our own hands and we have no right to whinge and moan unless we do something to help ourselves - simple as that.

[Paul in NZ]

Not a new problem then.... But I rather like the 60's solution

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fulDzcCKDRk&feature=related

[Hitcher]

The cynic in me says that a good percentage of motorcyclists either don't know how to ride particularly well, don't realise they're not riding well or don't care whether they do or not.

The cynic in you has clearly observed a Harley Davidson owners' group ride.

[Big Dave]

The cynic in you has clearly observed a Harley Davidson owners' group ride.

The Cynic in me says neither have you. :-)

'Official' HOG runs are done 'by the book' - to the letter.

[Hitcher]

'Official' HOG runs are done 'by the book' - to the letter.

The cynic in me is relieved that some have standards. Watching 40-odd Harleys insisting on riding as a contiguous unit, irrespective of what other road users may be doing, is hardly a joy to watch or experience.

[Big Dave]

insisting on riding as a contiguous unit, irrespective of what other road users may be doing,

Pretty much every massed ride I've observed does that to some degree.

[rastuscat]

Pretty much every massed ride I've observed does that to some degree.

Yup. Group riding dynamics take over, and brains go into park.

[Brian407]

A little late perhaps but ive just read the 'discussion' document. Didnt make me sick, or bore me to tears, but one thing is very evident. Like it or not we are heading down the road of more restrictions, and more enforcement. It's fate accompli..... unless we as a group get off our collective asses and stop moaning about it and make some submissions. Love it or hate it, this is our chance to have a say. It might, or might not make a difference, but one thing that will definately NOT make a difference is doing nothing.

One thing did make me laugh though, how the hell do you get an air bag on a motorcycle??? other than the mother in law on the back.

[James Deuce]

Only I can do that.

No you can't. You can only mitigate some of the risk. It's supreme arrogance to think that you can keep yourself "safe". You need the cooperation of skilled road users, designers and maintainers, those who use the road for purposes other than getting from A to B, and those whose business borders the road to maintain a measure of safety. Which brings you back to trying to keep yourself safe because the aforementioned either don't exist or simply don't give a fuck about the consequences of their action or inaction.

How is making submissions going to change anything? As was proved with ACC, the decision has been made, the die is cast, you're fucked, enjoy riding a bike while you still can.

[Brian407]

How is making submissions going to change anything?

and thats exactly why it wont change anything. If you dont vote, or make submissions, dont moan about what you get. Nothing worse than apathy.

[caspernz]

and thats exactly why it wont change anything. If you dont vote, or make submissions, dont moan about what you get. Nothing worse than apathy.

In a way, much as I hate to think this way, the whole setup with this is exactly that. It's a setup to trick us into thinking we actually have input....

[Brian407]

so we should just bend over and take it up the arse.... is that what you're saying ??

[Hitcher]

so we should just bend over and take it up the arse.... is that what you're saying ??

Bend over if you must. We're still going to get it up the arse whatever position we choose.

[Brian407]

at least i'll put up some resistance, and they'll need extra lube...

[GrayWolf]

I Imagine ISA will go on trucks first, then cars, then motorbikes, but there are a lot of hurdles for any government to get over before they start implementing that kind of thing.


I think the point of putting a draft document out is to get feedback like that, to them though as it is pointless writing on here. I did think the same thing myself a couple of times btw.


What is a very real possibility is the 'black box' type unit that Mercedes (I think) have played with... it records brakes, steering input, throttle position, speed, gear selected, etc and retains it for the 15 seconds prior to an impact. They were developing it as a 'safety aid' to understand the damage a vehicle sustains, type of impacts and how to strengthen them against these impacts. The UK police have the legal right to look at your cel phone at an accident site to see if you have texted, or were on the phone immediately prior to, or at the actual time of the incident. Nowwwww start fitting 'black boxes' to new vehicles?? We already have on board computers as engine management/ABS/Stability control............ there's your 'active' speed assistance.

[St_Gabriel]

What is a very real possibility is the 'black box' type unit that Mercedes (I think) have played with... it records brakes, steering input, throttle position, speed, gear selected, etc and retains it for the 15 seconds prior to an impact. They were developing it as a 'safety aid' to understand the damage a vehicle sustains, type of impacts and how to strengthen them against these impacts. The UK police have the legal right to look at your cel phone at an accident site to see if you have texted, or were on the phone immediately prior to, or at the actual time of the incident. Nowwwww start fitting 'black boxes' to new vehicles?? We already have on board computers as engine management/ABS/Stability control............ there's your 'active' speed assistance.

They already are fitted. There was a story in the paper about a Holden Commodore (VZ model from my shady memory) where the authorites were able to access the information that was retained in either the ABS or the Airbag module which had the final 3 seconds before deployment. It showed that the vehicle had been travelling at a lot higher speed than was reported to the police by the driver, it also showed the deceleration G forces. Be afraid...very afraid.

[St_Gabriel]

After some searching, I have located the source of this information, please forgive my failing memory for the shortcomings of the previous post

Stuff.co.nz article (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3722117/Black-box-in-car-crash-court-case)

[Brian d marge]

Good luck fitting them on my enfield !!!

Not sure it could record speeds as fast as me enfield travels ,,,,,,,

if it survived the vibrations

and as for recording when the brakes were applied ...hahahahaha even I DONT KNOW !


Stephen

Firmly planted in the past .......

Spinning wheels BAH HUMBUG !!!!

[avgas]

They already are fitted. There was a story in the paper about a Holden Commodore (VZ model from my shady memory) where the authorites were able to access the information that was retained in either the ABS or the Airbag module which had the final 3 seconds before deployment. It showed that the vehicle had been travelling at a lot higher speed than was reported to the police by the driver, it also showed the deceleration G forces. Be afraid...very afraid.
I can show you what you need to do to fry em if your concerned about tickets. Its not against the law to do this yet. Its also easy to do (in fact they fail more often than CX's).

[caspernz]

so we should just bend over and take it up the arse.... is that what you're saying ??

Not at all. The current method for us to have our say seems suspect. New approach needed for us to get thru to powers that be.....

[caspernz]

What is a very real possibility is the 'black box' type unit that Mercedes (I think) have played with... it records brakes, steering input, throttle position, speed, gear selected, etc and retains it for the 15 seconds prior to an impact. They were developing it as a 'safety aid' to understand the damage a vehicle sustains, type of impacts and how to strengthen them against these impacts. The UK police have the legal right to look at your cel phone at an accident site to see if you have texted, or were on the phone immediately prior to, or at the actual time of the incident. Nowwwww start fitting 'black boxes' to new vehicles?? We already have on board computers as engine management/ABS/Stability control............ there's your 'active' speed assistance.

Here's the kicker, as a professional truck driver, we've had the above technology fitted to our trucks for years. Speed limited, ABS, roll stability, GPS records various elements, panic button records previous minute in great detail, and regardless GPS transmits warning to various superiors when driver exceeds any limit, such as harsh braking, cornering etc. Oh and 4 km/h over the limit in any area results in a 'please explain' phonecall, 10 km/h over and you can just about start cleaning out your locker....

Most modern vehicles already have most of the technology fitted. Hate the thought of riding a bike that's strangled in this manner....:laugh::laugh:

[NONONO]

Bend over if you must. We're still going to get it up the arse whatever position we choose.

For gods sake man have you got ANY backbone. So sick of your "Why bother" stance. Jeez you must be hell to live with. Try some anti depressants or get pissed, have a blow out, but FFS stop with the cynicism will ya.
Really Hitcher, have a look at yourself, it's bleedin depression central.

[Hitcher]

For gods sake man have you got ANY backbone. So sick of your "Why bother" stance. Jeez you must be hell to live with. Try some anti depressants or get pissed, have a blow out, but FFS stop with the cynicism will ya.
Really Hitcher, have a look at yourself, it's bleedin depression central.

If you would prefer, I could adopt a persona of Pollyannaish delusional optimism, one which articulated a view that key decision makers in the public service (officials, not politicians) could be persuaded by logic and reason to change the views that they currently hold. This same voice of unadulterated joy and positivism could also espouse a belief that there may be politicians of influence who actually give a shit about the wants and needs of those of us who ride motorcycles and who are ready to rally around our just and righteous cause.

For inspiration, I could draw on the numerous posts in the echo chamber of indignation that are regularly trotted out on Kiwi Biker, none of which have ever been heard by the decision makers with whom each new poster wishes to lock horns.

If believing that a tired argument that has failed once or twice before is a lack of backbone, then perhaps I should indeed go and fraternise with other cnidarians.

[Brian407]

Perhaps you should....

[NONONO]

If you would prefer, I could adopt a persona of Pollyannaish delusional optimism, one which articulated a view that key decision makers in the public service (officials, not politicians) could be persuaded by logic and reason to change the views that they currently hold. This same voice of unadulterated joy and positivism could also espouse a belief that there may be politicians of influence who actually give a shit about the wants and needs of those of us who ride motorcycles and who are ready to rally around our just and righteous cause.

For inspiration, I could draw on the numerous posts in the echo chamber of indignation that are regularly trotted out on Kiwi Biker, none of which have ever been heard by the decision makers with whom each new poster wishes to lock horns.

If believing that a tired argument that has failed once or twice before is a lack of backbone, then perhaps I should indeed go and fraternise with other cnidarians.

http://youtu.be/2uohP4gk0wU
Try Citalopram. low dose at first, increase as needed. Some CBT might be useful. Smile a bit, laugh at the rain, listen to the church bells....anything but your constant fckin groaning.
Seriously man, you may need some help.
http://www.angelfire.com/music4/bethbrake/MyEeyorePage.html

[Conquiztador]

So I read all this. Have a look at the report, but decide it is not what I want to read over my cornflakes.

I then look to my crystal ball, where it sits waiting patiently with it's knowledge of the parts of my future I have no bearing on, for advise. As I focus on the fog that represents the future of motorbiking in my beloved country I see two distinctive groups forming:
- One that rides their 125cc max 70k/h regulated two wheel transports dressed in yellow dayglow vests dutifully paying the hign ACC levies.
- One that rides old non-electronic assited noisy smoking bikes and dressed in black leathers, all having perfected the one finger salute.

As I contemplate this vision of the future I have no doubt what group I will belong to.

I also recognise that the issue this thread (and so many others lately) is highlighting can only be solved by full frontal attack. As I look around for the leader this will require I sadly find nobody who fits the mould. There is a multitude of warriors who dutifully try to affect the outcome by following the rules that have been made up for them to limit their impact.

I then wonder how a group (be that a big one that could have some major impact) that think they have made their contribution by participating in the Bikoi against the ACC increase, and where individiuality is one of the highest attributes, could ever work together to achieve a common goal that would provide a motorbiking future in NZ where we can hold on to what we currently have.

The outcome is a bleak one. Sadly.

To have any impact there is only one path to take: A dedicated MotorBike Political Party.

At this stage my plate of cornflakes is empty and I want to go down in to my workshop to continue the work on one of my bikes I started a few days ago. This, I conclude, is something I have full control over. The, by me, led biker revolution has to wait. But if there was a few others who would be prepared to share the load, to contribute with ideas...

[Brian407]

So how many signatures on a petition does it take to force a referendum? Referendums arent binding, but if enough people want one then they have to hold one. Referendums arent binding but it would be a foolish govt indeed that chose to ignore one completely. Talk to your opposition MP's and convince them that this is a voting issue that could well help their cause in the next election. Make it about them as well, not just about us.

But most importantly. Dont sit at home on your hands and do nothing. Those that choose that method are the very sheep that the regulators rely on so they can shaft us all.

[Katman]

Until we start taking a closer look at ourselves and seriously consider what has brought us to the current state of affairs then we're pushing shit uphill if we think any descisions made by the powers that be are going to work well in our favour.

[Ocean1]

Until we start taking a closer look at ourselves and seriously consider what has brought us to the current state of affairs then we're pushing shit uphill if we think any descisions are going to be made by the powers that be that work well in our favour.

Decisions by the powers that be that don't work well for us ARE what's brought us to the current state of affairs. And if you think anything you do is going to change that you've got fewer clues than I thought were nescessary to actually breath.

[Katman]

Decisions by the powers that be that don't work well for us ARE what's brought us to the current state of affairs. And if you think anything you do is going to change that you've got fewer clues than I thought were nescessary to actually breath.

Bullshit. The decisions made have been in response to far too many motorcyclists for far too many years giving society the digitus impudicus.

It's the old "Yeah, I crashed riding like a twat and cost the country thousands to fix up, but so what - it's my right to ride however I like" attitude that's brought us the adverse attention we're now receiving.

[Ocean1]

Bullshit. The decisions made have been in response to far too many motorcyclists for far too many years giving society the digitus impudicus.

Katshit. They've got the right to ride in whatever manner they consider represents the best balance between their passion and their safety...



It's the old "Yeah, I crashed riding like a twat and cost the country thousands to fix up, but so what - it's my right to ride however I like" attitude that's brought us the adverse attention we're now receiving.

...and vacuous politicians and their lackeys whining that there's not enough of the money they stole from motorcyclists in the first place to cover their injuries doesn't amount to a valid claim to the right to dictate terms to them. Quite the reverse, given the blatantly corrupt data and hugely spun propaganda they used to justify it in the first place.

Fuck'em.

[Katman]

Katshit. They've got the right to ride in whatever manner they consider represents the best balance between their passion and their safety...


Yeah, that's the attitude I'm talking about.

"I don't give a fuck what my passion costs the country" will get us no-where other than deeper in the shit.

[actungbaby]

yes totally

I mean you thought i f you reach you late 40s and hadint got out your system

Why hell.. not where surposed to be setting example to young ones not acting like dicks are selves

I seen dude my age riding halrey lound as hell scare little bbays in there prams mothers trying get
them to sleep and what for so can ride like moneky arms stretched out to me looks like clown
with german hlemet on american bike in new zealnd thinks hes from easy rider please... looks like dick

I mean you can put speed when young done to hormones and such what these clowns trying prove
There not old oh please ...you are get over it


Bullshit. The decisions made have been in response to far too many motorcyclists for far too many years giving society the digitus impudicus.

It's the old "Yeah, I crashed riding like a twat and cost the country thousands to fix up, but so what - it's my right to ride however I like" attitude that's brought us the adverse attention we're now receiving.

[Madness]

yes totally

I mean you thought i f you reach you late 40s and hadint got out your system

Why hell.. not where surposed to be setting example to young ones not acting like dicks are selves

I seen dude my age riding halrey lound as hell scare little bbays in there prams mothers trying get
them to sleep and what for so can ride like moneky arms stretched out to me looks like clown
with german hlemet on american bike in new zealnd thinks hes from easy rider please... looks like dick

I mean you can put speed when young done to hormones and such what these clowns trying prove
There not old oh please ...you are get over it

Exactly! :niceone:

[MSTRS]

yes totally

I mean you thought i f you reach you late 40s and hadint got out your system

Why hell.. not where surposed to be setting example to young ones not acting like dicks are selves

I seen dude my age riding halrey lound as hell scare little bbays in there prams mothers trying get
them to sleep and what for so can ride like moneky arms stretched out to me looks like clown
with german hlemet on american bike in new zealnd thinks hes from easy rider please... looks like dick

I mean you can put speed when young done to hormones and such what these clowns trying prove
There not old oh please ...you are get over it

Having a little trouble with that.
If you mean the young and/or the brainless can't be reached, then yes I'd agree. Can't put an old/wise head on young shoulders, but we sure gonna keep trying...

[Hitcher]

So how many signatures on a petition does it take to force a referendum? Referendums arent binding, but if enough people want one then they have to hold one. Referendums arent binding but it would be a foolish govt indeed that chose to ignore one completely. Talk to your opposition MP's and convince them that this is a voting issue that could well help their cause in the next election. Make it about them as well, not just about us.

Remember the smacking referendum? And that was about something way more contentious than a few people who like to go pootling hither and yon on motorcycles.

[Conquiztador]

In 2007 there was 421 road deaths in NZ. There was also 483 suicides.

Our government has committed to investing $300 million/year in to road policing. (Makes it $712,589.00/death) (That is on top of the $290 million/year in road improvements)

From 2004 - 2007 $5.52 million was invested in suicide prevention, making it $1.38 million per year. (Makes it $2,857.00/ death)

(Sorry, was not able to find later info for suicide prevention)

And before you start shooting holes in this argument: Yes I do realise that it is wrong to compare like this on so many levels. But clearly there must be a reason why traffic deaths are worth soo much more?

My cynical mind tries to convince me that it so much easier to write a ticket to someone who does 105K/h than to someone contemplating suicide...

[caseye]

Banish the thought you guys, ol Hitcher is entitled to his opinion, that's what makes this and any other forum so interesting .
I can't help but agree with him about the Pollies and us ranting here but never actually getting to lock horns with the Polly/Bureaucrat that matters.
That's why I've emailed Mr Wright/Wrong.That's why I've ridden to Welly , twice,joined BRONZ every year for years now. Thrown my hat in the ring when AAG and then MAG came along.
I'm tired of you lot bleating and doing NO More than that.
I've suggested that we do get in the ear of the Pollies that we do actually prove our own case for responsibility instead of blaming the car drivers and anyone else within a mile of us when we come off because we didn't see the metal on the corner, see it! we should expect it and act/ride accordingly.
I believe as Katman does, that when the general public and the pollies/bureaucrats see motorcyclists in general riding at something approaching respectable speeds, actually obeying the road rules and not giving ordinary motorists heart attacks at the audacity of their speeding,dangerous behaviour that we might have a chance at being heard and understood with something approaching a sympathetic ear.

[pritch]

actually obeying the road rules and not giving ordinary motorists heart attacks at the audacity of their speeding,dangerous behaviour that we might have a chance at being heard and understood with something approaching a sympathetic ear.

A bit optimistic I fear. Search a few KB threads about cyclists and you'll find the same uninformed, prejudiced, rants that some car drivers indulge regarding motorcyclists. Reality doesn't have too much to do with any of it.

[Brian407]

:mad: I cant believe the pessimism and negativity of most of you. How the fuck are we going to get ANYTHING changed in our favour with attitudes like that. Get a grip people. People walk over top of you because you fucken well let them. Take some responibility for yourselves and grow some balls, instead of complaining like little girls and blaming your problems on someone else. Get off your arse for fucks sake and DO something about it. :mad:

Caseye and Katman... i'm with you.

Hitcher... Without doubt, you have to be the most apathetic individual I've ever encountered. Exactly the type of person the govt needs. The path of least resistance.

[James Deuce]

What precisely can one "do"? The time to "do" something was the just held election. The same crowd appear to have been handed a mandate to continue with their policies. As has been proven over and over, bikers are not prepared to put aside their personal politics to pursue a common objective. The current Government wish to sell ACC as an insurance business and to do that they need to tighten control of or remove the worst risks to a commercial insurance business.

Bikers proved completely incapable of any outcome other than eating their own leaders and allowing themselves to be divided and thoroughly conquered whilst having lots of private and public spats an fallings out. Calling people apathetic in the face of the biggest disaster in the politicisation of the motorcycling "community" of New Zealand is precisely the kind of result the Government were hoping for. The only thing we can say we achieved it to help get Nick Smith demoted for failing to convincingly spin the Government figures and lies in way that made bikers look even stupider than they already do.

Keep up the ad hominem attacks. It's a great look.

The "general public" will never perceive motorcyclists as anything other than fucking idiots. It only takes one dickhead on a stolen chook chaser to wheelie up and down Dave Moore's street in Christchurch with his column in Fairfax media, with a far greater readership than say Kiwi Rider, and the perception is reinforced with the "general public".

There is no solution. Just enjoy the time you have left. You all missed your chance when you failed to follow up on 2009's fantastic effort.

[Brian407]

Un-fucken-believable. Can you see China from that hole in the sand you've buried your head in ?

If you cant beat em..... TRY FUCKEN HARDER !!

[Madness]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Pk7yqlTMvp8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Are you living the dream Brian?

[James Deuce]

Stick your hand up Brian, get on with it, and don't come bitching to us when you can't reach far enough around to get the knives out of your back.

I've stuck my neck out for "bikers" once too often. They seem to be very angry people with short memories. Not really worth the effort.

[MSTRS]

Un-fucken-believable. Can you see China from that hole in the sand you've buried your head in ?

If you cant beat em..... TRY FUCKEN HARDER !!

*small voice pipes up*

We did. And then we did again. And found that it is easier to herd cats than get ANY sort of agreement amongst bikers, much less any momentum going in some sort of movement.

Were YOU there in 2009? And where was your voice before, during and after?

[Brian407]

Not really worth the effort.

Says it all really, you are not the sort of person thats helpful to our community, you're just one more of the sheeple.

And Madness, post as many dumb ass youtube videos as you want, it doesnt change the fact that freedom has to fought for, its not an automatic right, and the more you relinguish, the more you'll loose.

Do any of you hunt? if you do then you will know exactly how a well organised MINORITY can influence the regulators. If you dont hunt then google Fiordland Wapiti Foundation and read how it works.

[NONONO]

Banish the thought you guys, ol Hitcher is entitled to his opinion, that's what makes this and any other forum so interesting .
I can't help but agree with him about the Pollies and us ranting here but never actually getting to lock horns with the Polly/Bureaucrat that matters.
That's why I've emailed Mr Wright/Wrong.That's why I've ridden to Welly , twice,joined BRONZ every year for years now. Thrown my hat in the ring when AAG and then MAG came along.
I'm tired of you lot bleating and doing NO More than that.
I've suggested that we do get in the ear of the Pollies that we do actually prove our own case for responsibility instead of blaming the car drivers and anyone else within a mile of us when we come off because we didn't see the metal on the corner, see it! we should expect it and act/ride accordingly.
I believe as Katman does, that when the general public and the pollies/bureaucrats see motorcyclists in general riding at something approaching respectable speeds, actually obeying the road rules and not giving ordinary motorists heart attacks at the audacity of their speeding,dangerous behaviour that we might have a chance at being heard and understood with something approaching a sympathetic ear.

Seriously Mark? I have ridden behind you remember:lol:
And here's my opinion..:bleh:

[Brian407]

*small voice pipes up*

We did. And then we did again. And found that it is easier to herd cats than get ANY sort of agreement amongst bikers, much less any momentum going in some sort of movement.


So when beating your head against the wall hurts, DONT KEEP DOING IT. Find a way round the bloody wall, dont just walk away and say it's too hard. Thats just defeatism.

[Katman]

So when beating your head against the wall hurts, DONT KEEP DOING IT.

It's not so bad. I've been doing it for so long now I'm starting to enjoy the sensation. :wacko:

[James Deuce]

a well organised MINORITY can influence the regulators.

Better men than you have tried. (I thought I'd try the ignorant bastard personal attack approach seeing as how you started it.)

You tell everyone else to do some research, well, how about you read through the ACC forum and the Kiwirider blogs to get an idea of the effort put in and the people involved?

I've been "involved" in biker politics, on and off, for more than twenty years. The end result is always the same. Several factions will publicly humiliate any "biker" stupid enough to put their hand up to lead a protest movement and develop policies around expected outcomes and what can and can't be horse traded.

If you can do better, get on with it, and stop attacking people who may or may not be willing to be part of the organisational support process.

[Brian407]

It's not so bad. I've been doing it for so long now that I'm starting to enjoy the sensation.

Starting to think that thats what I'm doing here. Too much apathy and pessimism here for me, i'm off to make a difference somewhere. My glass is Half Full, not Half Empty.

Happy New Year one and all, that is if you can bear to enjoy yourselves and be happy for a change.

[MSTRS]

Starting to think that thats what I'm doing here. Too much apathy and pessimism here for me, ...

Pffft!! You've been here 5 minutes and yet you know what needs to be done to sort the issues facing bikers?
Away you go and get on with it - we're all watching and expecting great results. If you make a difference, then we'll stop bagging you.
When you've been at the coalface for a few years, like so many here have been, then you'll see why they feel the way they do.

[Brian407]

Pffft!! You've been here 5 minutes and yet you know what needs to be done to sort the issues facing bikers?
Away you go and get on with it - we're all watching and expecting great results. If you make a difference, then we'll stop bagging you.
When you've been at the coalface for a few years, like so many here have been, then you'll see why they feel the way they do.

Been here a bloody site longer than 5 minutes, and yes, after almost 40 years of riding bikes, and almost as many years in policy making roles I think i might know a thing or two about what needs to be done to get a collective, and heard, voice.

And, i hope you're not referring to this forum as 'the coalface' because it's absolutely the wrong place to begin trying to organise people. I've been watching with interest for years while forums such as this bitch and moan, and amount to nothing.

I dont care if your talking motorcyclists or kindergarten kids, everybody can become united in the pursuit of a common goal. Trick is to make the goal worth pursuing, and thats never going to happen on this forum.

If you're not going to make submissions on the current draft document before the Feb deadline then thats your choice, but make no mistake about it, Its YOUR choice, and if that choice is to do nothing then accept responsibility for YOUR choice and dont complain about what you get, and i have no further interest in discussing it with you.

[Ronin]

Stick your hand up Brian, get on with it, and don't come bitching to us when you can't reach far enough around to get the knives out of your back.

I've stuck my neck out for "bikers" once too often. They seem to be very short people with angry memories. Not really worth the effort.

Fixed that right up for you.

[Hitcher]

Hitcher... Without doubt, you have to be the most apathetic individual I've ever encountered. Exactly the type of person the govt needs. The path of least resistance.

It's nice to have been so judged. Indeed a privilege. You're right. I have absolutely no idea about how government and the political lobbying system works. Here's hoping that I have more sense than to try and make a living from such endeavours, least my family starves to death.

[Ronin]

So when beating your head against the wall hurts, DONT KEEP DOING IT. Find a way round the bloody wall, dont just walk away and say it's too hard. Thats just defeatism.


Starting to think that thats what I'm doing here. Too much apathy and pessimism here for me, i'm off to make a difference somewhere. My glass is Half Full, not Half Empty.

Happy New Year one and all, that is if you can bear to enjoy yourselves and be happy for a change.

Nice consistency there. So if this is the wrong forum to be trying to fix the problems, why the discussion here? The reality is, well my reality, that unless there is a chance that a politician is going to appeal to the populist opinion then they will ignore you.

[Ronin]

It's nice to have been so judged. Indeed a privilege. You're right. I have absolutely no idea about how government and the political lobbying system works. Here's hoping that I have more sense than to try and make a living from such endeavours, least my family starves to death.

God forbid indeed.

[MSTRS]

Been here a bloody site longer than 5 minutes, and yes, after almost 40 years of riding bikes, and almost as many years in policy making roles I think i might know a thing or two about what needs to be done to get a collective, and heard, voice.

And, i hope you're not referring to this forum as 'the coalface' because it's absolutely the wrong place to begin trying to organise people. I've been watching with interest for years while forums such as this bitch and moan, and amount to nothing.

I dont care if your talking motorcyclists or kindergarten kids, everybody can become united in the pursuit of a common goal. Trick is to make the goal worth pursuing, and thats never going to happen on this forum.

If you're not going to make submissions on the current draft document before the Feb deadline then thats your choice, but make no mistake about it, Its YOUR choice, and if that choice is to do nothing then accept responsibility for YOUR choice and dont complain about what you get, and i have no further interest in discussing it with you.

Criticise the fuck out of those who've been lobbying their MPs, made submissions to the various draft documents in all matters motorcycling, attempted to get discussions going with the likes of NZTA, etc. That's a surefire way to get the support of those who have been ignored, ridiculed and stabbed in the back by their colleagues, and are now reduced to 'bitching on here'...

I'll ask again...if you're so passionate about making a difference, and we're all such useless twats, where the fuck were you when 'we' needed someone who knows what they are doing (your words)??

We see your lips moving, but we aint hearing anything...yet.

[Ronin]

We see your lips moving, but we aint hearing anything...yet.

Just like a cunt really.

​Did I say that out loud?

[MSTRS]

Just like a cunt really.


I've heard a rumour that some even have teeth. Haven't seen one for myself though.

[Ocean1]

The time to "do" something was the just held election. The same crowd appear to have been handed a mandate to continue with their policies.

Not. Oh they'll claim that's the case, but it's unlikely you'd get >50% agreeing to flogging off state owned assets, right or wrong. If they can ignore that then we're not even on their threat radar.

I think it's going to become a larger problem in future, how do we keep an effective leash on politicians when they've finely developed the art of ballancing broad populist policy against a vast raft of unpopular but more narrowly targeted goals.

Like pricing, policing and legislating motorcyclists off the road. The future looks a bit dodgy for minorities.

[Brian d marge]

Not. Oh they'll claim that's the case, but it's unlikely you'd get >50% agreeing to flogging off state owned assets, right or wrong. If they can ignore that then we're not even on their threat radar.

I think it's going to become a larger problem in future, how do we keep an effective leash on politicians when they've finely developed the art of ballancing broad populist policy against a vast raft of unpopular but more narrowly targeted goals.

Like pricing, policing and legislating motorcyclists off the road. The future looks a bit dodgy for minorities.


tis the oldies who have the power , and they aint so doddery .....

otherwise , to in a hand basket we go

Stephen

[swbarnett]

Until we start taking a closer look at ourselves and seriously consider what has brought us to the current state of affairs ...
There is only one thing that has brought us here - PREJUDICE

It is naive in the extreme and shows a complete lack of understanding of human nature to expect each and every motorcyclist to ride to the standard to which you espouse.

While I agree with you that wether a rider comes to grief or not is larger under their control, I also understand that it is not within the realms of human nature for each and every rider to exercise that control.

[MSTRS]

I see that Mr Peugeot has still not 'risen' to the challenge. Pity - he seemed to offer such promise too...:lol:

[Katman]

It is naive in the extreme and shows a complete lack of understanding of human nature to expect each and every motorcyclist to ride to the standard to which you espouse.



Are you seriously suggesting you don't believe there's any need (or room) for improvement?

[FJRider]

It is naive in the extreme and shows a complete lack of understanding of human nature to expect each and every motorcyclist to ride to the standard to which you espouse.


With the expectation that their very survival may depend on it ... I would think "Human nature" may have to adapt to different thinking ...

[actungbaby]

yes totaly with you to brother

what we can do is ride by example treat raod users like we wish to be treated with respect
am on pusbike most the time i admit i sneak infront at the lights but dont take to many risks
wear helmet dont always where day glow though , i chould get a light but havent bothered yet.

what am going to do whenh get bike going

1 ride it like i got time to get where am going in my mind not rush like late everwhere

2. indicate so people know where am going well before get there out roundabouts in and out of them

3. am not going to tailgate and sit my bike not in car drivers blind spots

4. not think i have to pass everting just because i think am on bike and should be faster than car drivers

5. stick to most these but somtimes namly rule 5 but in general try to stick to them most the time its the effort

attitude more than what the rules say in anything , iguess what hearing is true we like the doing things for aresleves all we voicing is okay do you own way but keep to you rules but more that tell others what they are.

then break them they go but you said this... blah blah okay u go i will try do that more often

i can say honestly never seen crazy biker that thought oh he going hurt himself but still we got help aresleves get

accident rate down and more young ones on bikes is all


:mad: I cant believe the pessimism and negativity of most of you. How the fuck are we going to get ANYTHING changed in our favour with attitudes like that. Get a grip people. People walk over top of you because you fucken well let them. Take some responibility for yourselves and grow some balls, instead of complaining like little girls and blaming your problems on someone else. Get off your arse for fucks sake and DO something about it. :mad:

Caseye and Katman... i'm with you.

Hitcher... Without doubt, you have to be the most apathetic individual I've ever encountered. Exactly the type of person the govt needs. The path of least resistance.

[actungbaby]

yes that the thing about bikes u know u have to no one esle going look after u in todays world


With the expectation that their very survival may depend on it ... I would think "Human nature" may have to adapt to different thinking ...

yep like alot things , ur mind goes noo way but after you tryed it and then u can go no way or think hmm

that wasint so boring after alll its still choice though hopefully. what fj saying i think

is change a ways or have them changed for use. its like headlight rule i still ride with on before

but prefer was still a choice insteed of a offence because we all can forget things

noone ones perfect where not saying we are i hope

[Brian407]

I see that Mr Peugeot has still not 'risen' to the challenge. Pity - he seemed to offer such promise too...:lol:

Never actually owned a Peugeot. Cant stand the bloody things. What 'challenge' would that be? To stay her and waste my time debating issues with the hand wringers? or actually do something pro active and start talking to people who can make a difference.

If the challenge is the first option, then forget it. I'm not a card carrying member of the whingers and whiners society that you seem to belong to, and have no intention of joining the negative and the defeated.

If it's the second option, then I've been doing that for quite some time. Rome wasnt built in a day, but Nero's destruction of it was.

As to the question about where was I in the past, my answer is quite simple "none of your effin business" !

This thread was started to draw attention the discussion document, and the need for public, i.e ours, submissions. Submit your thoughts, or not, i dont actually care what you do, because real change is effected by people with passion for thier cause, which you obviously lack. Those of us that care are actually better off without those of your ilk as you will only succeed in doing more harm than good.

As ive said before, if you dont vote, and take every available opportunity to do so, then you have absolutely no right whatsoever to complain about what you get.

Reply if you want, or not, I dont care. I wont be responding to your taunts any further, I've got bigger fish to fry.

[yungatart]

because real change is effected by people with passion for thier cause, which you obviously lack. Those of us that care are actually better off without those of your ilk as you will only succeed in doing more harm than good.



I see you are a relative newby here (2009 and 73 posts).
You'll not know Mstrs very well then. I suggest you do a search of his posts before you start spewing shit out your gob.

There's a few very passionate people on here, and he's one of them.

[Brian407]

There's a few very passionate people on here, and he's one of them.

As evidenced by his 'throwing hands in the air saying there's no point' approach. I'd say his passion has died, along with his libido.

Post counts and join dates mean nothing. Have a look at the number of 'guests' browsing at any given time, they usually far exceed the number of logged on members, and some of them have been browsing for a vey long time.

[yungatart]

I'd say his passion has died, along with his libido.

You are wrong, very wrong, on both counts, I can assure you :msn-wink:

[Brian407]

More infromation than I needed to know, but thanks for sharing anyway. Do you actually have anything useful to contribute to this thread or are you just trying to get your post count up?

[Virago]

How to make friends and influence people...

[MSTRS]

Reply if you want, or not, I dont care. I wont be responding to your taunts any further, I've got bigger fish to fry.

As YT says - you really have no idea.
I did the Safer Journeys workshop - what a fecking waste of time that was. EXCEPT one or two people actually got the hypocrisy of the ruling junta pointed out to them. By me. To the red-faced consternation of the cops seeded at every table. Still - didn't make any difference.
Letters full of questions/suggestions sent to local MPs, ministers of transport, ACC officials etc, on a whole variety of issues facing bikers - ignored or responded to with a condescending form reply that address NONE of my questions.
Letter after letter published in the local paper, trying to 'educate' the public to certain issues around ACC - that sometimes got interesting. But ultimately, changed nothing.
Been involved in meetings with Transit officials at the local level - very pleasant, but none of my concerns have been addressed.
Participated in protests, rides or otherwise, and organised some myself. We all know how effective those were.

Now, when you accuse the many on here who were just as (or even more) active as I of being 'apathetic and negative whingers' then you strike a nerve. And when I challenge you (twice) to actually put your hand up and take a turn at having another try on behalf of all bikers, you insult me further. You signed up to KB in 2009, if what you say you are able to do is so effective, why weren't you here doing it then?
FUCK YOU!

[yungatart]

:mad: I cant believe the pessimism and negativity of most of you....

Hitcher... Without doubt, you have to be the most apathetic individual I've ever encountered. Exactly the type of person the govt needs. The path of least resistance.


Un-fucken-believable. Can you see China from that hole in the sand you've buried your head in ?

If you cant beat em..... TRY FUCKEN HARDER !!


Says it all really, you are not the sort of person thats helpful to our community, you're just one more of the sheeple.


...As to the question about where was I in the past, my answer is quite simple "none of your effin business" !

Reply if you want, or not, I dont care. I wont be responding to your taunts any further, I've got bigger fish to fry.


.. Do you actually have anything useful to contribute to this thread or are you just trying to get your post count up?

Useful to contribute? Like the pearls of wisdom you have offered, you mean? (Examples of which I have quoted above, just to refresh your memory)

Now go and play nicely, Brian, there's a good boy...

[MSTRS]

This old post of mine from mid-2009 (slightly paraphrased) fits real well about here...



But, of course, all the IQ-challenged, self-absorbed site homo habilii assume it is all about whinging and post counts. What these aforementioned low-IQ morons fail to realise is that yet again they have thrown away the opportunity to contribute to the subject in any meaningful way, instead preferring to point the finger of derision, mock any attempt to develop the original post and when pressed to 'put their money where their mouth is', simply resort to barely articulate personal insults.

[Brian407]

Useful to contribute? Like the pearls of wisdom you have offered, you mean? (Examples of which I have quoted above, just to refresh your memory)

Now go and play nicely, Brian, there's a good boy...

and your point is ????....

[yungatart]

I don't have one, anymore than you do.

[Brian407]

I don't have one, anymore than you do.

Ho Humm. You got that right, and the point I dont have is the one where's theres no point talking to you either.

[davereid]

Ho Humm. You got that right,

Brian you have been here 5 minutes, and managed to slag off some of the most effective people that NZ motorcycling has fighting for it.

The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-Herbert Spencer

[Virago]

Ho Humm. You got that right, and the point I dont have is the one where's theres no point talking to you either.

You're a fucking dickhead. You've got nothing to offer other than insults and judgements about people about which you know nothing.

You're the man for job, eh? Cool - fuck off and do it.

[avgas]

As ive said before, if you dont vote, and take every available opportunity to do so, then you have absolutely no right whatsoever to complain about what you get.
Because voting is the start and end of all democracy. :weird: And putting ticked paper in a box is the only way people "buy into" ideas :baby:

If thats the case give me a fucking dictatorship. At least then there won't be any lies involved.

Out of interest......have you paid for the rego on your bikes?

[caseye]

I'd love a 407, have a 406 and wouldn't have another car except the 407 if I could only afford one.
Now then Mr 407, you really ought to do some research before you go insulting people , any people and in particular the people you have so successfully managed to brush off as inconclusive , substantive and without a passion to do anything.
For your information YT and MSTRS are an unusual pairing who have repeatedly fought, by way of letters, face to face meetings with local council and ACC and yes even Govt ministers over many years to this day they do this in the hope that one day a person with enough clout will actually listen and at least open a door a crack.
Like me they were part of the AAG and then MAG NZ movements, unlike me they continue to lobby with some effect I might add and as motorcyclists they are two of the best ambassadors we've ever had.
They are also friends of mine and most of the people who have been in this thread , allowing you to hold court and pronounce sentence on them in such a profound and callous manner.
I find it hard to say these words without resorting to simply telling you to fuck off.
But here goes.
OK, so you say that you have more effective methods and that you do/can work smarter, the very people you have just consigned to the scrap heap would hold you dear to their hearts if you'd just enlighten them as to how to do this and if you could truly produce results they'd hold you up as a shining light and perhaps even ordain you as a saint.
Most of the people who have so far frequented this thread are either ex protesters or continue to be protesters, none of us are the same and we all do things in our own ways, the only common thing amongst us is our passion for our motorcycling and the undying will to fight to the bitter end. Something that I fear you don't have.
Words on a forum are easy.
if you have truly been around KB since 2009 and if you have followed the threads which by your own words, concern you then you should recognise the names of the people you see here in this thread and you should know that they've never given up and like me and others , also posting here have made huge financial and time concessions to ride to protests to lobby ministers and local Govt etc etc.
I've not yet told you to FUCK OFF butt believe me I'm close.
So now I'll ask you to present a cognitive plan that will get us in front of the people who matter and I promise you that these very people of who you have shown such great disdain will in fact follow you! to hell and back without doing as so many here do do, that is to say start bitching and moaning about not being able to come cause of work or this or that they'd give the time as they have always done and they'd die if it meant other motorcyclists got a fair go.
Are you getting my drift yet???
YT, MSTRS, I've spoken for you here, I'm damn sure if this turkey could do it, that you both do as I've said, as would I and ol Katman and ol Hitcher and everyone else here who knows what the alternatives are.
Love you guys, have and would, ride into Hell with you.

[Brian407]

Brian you have been here 5 minutes, and managed to slag off some of the most effective people that NZ motorcycling has fighting for it.

The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-Herbert Spencer

You gotta be shitting me... If thats the best you've got then we really are fucked.

[Brian407]

Out of interest......have you paid for the rego on your bikes?

Yes. Have you?

[Flip]

Caseye and Katman... i'm with you.



Good on you.

[Brian407]

So now I'll ask you to present a cognitive plan that will get us in front of the people who matter and I promise you that these very people of who you have shown such great disdain will in fact follow you! to hell and back without doing as so many here do do, that is to say start bitching and moaning about not being able to come cause of work or this or that they'd give the time as they have always done and they'd die if it meant other motorcyclists got a fair go.


Pehaps the first move would be to get a cognitive idea of what real issues you actually want to confront. After following the Safer Journeys plan since inception I dont actually see it as too much of a threat, except to those that want to ride like idiots, and for that sector the only thing that will work is tougher enforcement, which is being introduced in June of this year. If there's actually a problem to be addressed here, its the Motorcycle Safety Council who are supposed to be advocating on our behalf. The only thing i've seen from them at this point is copius amounts of spewed diatribe in a feeble attempt to justify the 30 bucks we all have now to pay to keep their coffee pot full.

So far, the only thing I see in unity is complaints about the ACC levies in our rego, but there is clearly no unified approach amongst motorcyclists about how to deal with that. Bottom line is until you can gain unity and stop the in-fighting you're never going to get anywhere.

I have no doubt that the people, and I have read thier resumes, have put in a massive effort, but when I suggested that providing submissions to the current draft on the table would be a good idea these very people chimed in stating it was a waste of time. If they wanted to get my hackles up, then they couldnt have found a better way. I dont care what the odds are, I dont subscribe to defeatism, and I also dont care about whose toes i stand on if it gets people talking and the issues to the forefront. You know... the thorn in the side, the squeeky wheel, etc. Simply giving up is not an option in my book and thats what I appear to be hearing on masse here.

[caseye]

407, I'm truely interested in seeing your reply to my post. I rarely burn bridges and I often find common ground where others see nothing but quicksand. YT and MSTRS don't always see eye to eye with Katman, nor do I but we all know each others motives are true and would back one another without question on issues that we believe in.Oh and don't be fooled by the often heated debates that we do from time to time have here in KB land,we do know that the others are for real and have sacrificed plenty to help our fellow motorcyclists so there is a base level of respect and dare I say it admiration for one anothers achievements over the past few years.

[Brian407]

see above. you posted at the same time as me.

[caseye]

OK, now I've seen at least a partial response to my largish post. I'd invite you to ask YT MSTRS and Katman if any of them have given up? Cause I know for a fact that they haven't.
You've hit the nail on the head squarely and unfortunately can't see the results for the sparks flying everywhere.
This fight isn't going to be won in a chamber somewhere, not by talking with politicians, not by giving ordinary motorists reason to hate all motorcyclists as they see our filthy few to coin a phrase doing exactly as they please when and where they feel the urge.
It can only be won by presenting continuous pressure on weak points in the system, by applying pressure and not taking it off.
This sounds easy to do and it should be.
Butt, we can't get more than ten motorcyclists together without a fight about who should be able to ride where and when they want at whatever speed they want, let alone present a common face to the citizens of NZ or our ruddy Pollies.
For me the first thing to do would be to get as many motorcyclists as possible to NOMINATE ONE GROUP of motorcyclist interested people to represent them.
This means organising every little township , hamlet and sheep station where someone rides to actually say, yes we/I want to be heard and I'm going to put my faith in x y z group and hers a few buck to get things going.
We can't rely simply on KB or any other motorcyclists based medium to spread this word it must be our own doing it and doing it properly.
K sound OK so far?
Well 407, this is where it all turns to custard.
And we those of whom you have spoken so disparagingly of have got to this point, not one or twice but several times without once failing in themselves but always and consistently being left high and dry by the very people who want a voice but are too damned lazy to get off their backsides and actually do something about it, they have the defeatist attitude not these folk.
So we've reached a point where others have also reached.
Now what???

[Harry the Barstard]

Its ok guys.......by the time they regulate bikes so much that its no longer fun to ride or affordable to own one. We can all go and sell our bikes and buy jetpacks!!.....I cant wait for jetpacks!

[Brian407]

Okay, i get that, but I cant help wonder about how the message has been getting out to the hamlets and sheep stations. I'm aware of the fight because I spend a fair amount of time on the Internet (nature of my job until recently), but i'm also aware of many others who dont frequent the net, and are simply not aware that groups such as MAG, AAG, MSC, Bronz etc exist. How are you getting the message to those people.

I consider myself an average motorcyclist. I've been riding for almost 40 years, I read the newspaper most days, I listen to news as often as possible and I try to attend at least three rallies a year, finances permitting. I dont spend a lot of time at bike shops and dont subscribe to any bike mags. I read them when in waiting rooms, or when they're on the smoko room etc, but if it wasnt for the net, and the occasional story in a mag I wouldnt even be aware of the MSC, and I know plenty that arent.

My point is that maybe the message delivery system needs to be looked at, then the message itself needs looked at. Most people have little tolerance for long winded arguments in political speak, thats why the average man thinks that politicians are prats. If you have a 2 word message, use 5 words to get it across, not 200. You'll have lost most people at 20, and the majority of the remaining will give up at 50. Those die hards that stay till the last are already converted and theres nothing to be gained by trying to convince them. Underlying principle is KISS, and i'm sure you know what that means.

Yes there has be a co-ordinated approach, but first you have to find what most people are willing to support, and most people dont become passionate about a cause until they can actually see how it will directly affect them, so far the arguements presented have been far too general for most people to grasp. Be specific, and confront issues one at a time.

I fully expect this post to be met with howls of dismissave indignace and 'yes but' reponses, but if thats all that happens, at least it's ensured that the issues are alive and still being talked about.

[bogan]

Brian, you're coming off as an arm-chair shot caller, identifying problems for other to solve, without specific solutions. Nothing wrong with that, but getting off side with the doer's will not help the cause. And dismissing the doer's opinions as defeatism is a good way to get off side, as you've found out.

The reality of the situation, is for each biker, there is a penalty-apathy-chance number which governs their level of involvement. For some the extra rego isn't much of an issue, others just don't have motivation to get involved, and a lot think there is a very slim chance of effecting change. How do you address all three with such a short message? How many riders are fully aware and simply don't think it is worth getting involved in? Can those riders be convinced to change their minds? What will it take?

[avgas]

Yes. Have you?
Hell no.
I don't buy what they are selling.

[caseye]

Nice work and see you didn't have to alienate anyone doing it.Well with the accepted loss of the pollies and local bureaucrats.
Now then, I've got to say that once again what you've said has merit and yes the method of delivery has to be one that actually reaches the masses ( motorcycling masses that is and specifically the ones as yet not convinced)
Same about the one issue and keeping it simple stupid!
So far we've done that, or should i say it has been done this way by those groups attempting to get things done.
Where you will come unstuck is where we've all already been.
Getting "the pricks who just want to ride" to do anything is virtually impossible and of course they are our main detractors by default, their attitude is "I'll do it when I want and where I want"
Makes the rest of us look like pious twats when we've just asked to be taken seriously and then ten or so idiots run amok on the countries roads and before you know it everyone's going, damn bikers deserve all they get.
The message was getting to towns and cities virtually by members of associated groups making flyers and distributing them around the towns and cities bike shops and any other shop that would take them and by going to various other motorcycling groups who hadn't heard a damned thing about the groups and explaining what had been going on.These were particularly rewarding and served to get the message to many other non involved or otherwise contacted bikers.
The network was growing.
I know I was involved in getting it to happen as were YT, MSTRS etc etc.
I'm knackered from doing the little bit I did do. Others who have gone before us have done heaps more and are still here, but like me they've become cynical and distrusting of anyone who proclaims they can fix it.
However like me they would get right behind the person/persons who got something going .
Friends not enemies, we can discuss and argue well and with passion and without becoming personal and dismissive we have done so for ages.
Yes discussion is a good start but heres something else.
Once a platform has been decided on and a random sampling of the motorcyclist fraternity has come up with a consensus then there needs to be action.
Action needs to be the next step, real action, not a few silly blockades, not a random visit to pollies places.
Concerted action with the backing and support of people who have done it successfully overseas.Again something that was in hand and was returning results.
All of this good work went down the tubes because a few couldn't be bothered s said "why did you start this when we already had that?"
That was another argument altogether and one which has not yet been put to bed.
I've had it for now, I'll come back tomorrow and see what else has been said.

[avgas]

So far, the only thing I see in unity is complaints about the ACC levies in our rego, but there is clearly no unified approach amongst motorcyclists about how to deal with that. Bottom line is until you can gain unity and stop the in-fighting you're never going to get anywhere.
Your not even man enough to risk riding without rego. Why the hell should we listen to you.
You can file all the paper work you want. At the end of the day your investing in their ideas 100%.

In your words, If you can't complain if you don't vote......well you can't complain if your paying for someone to screw you either.

[caseye]

In case you didn't know it, bogan is/was! another doer.I second his accurate assessment of this thread to date.

[Brian407]

Your not even man enough to risk riding without rego. Why the hell should we listen to you.
You can file all the paper work you want. At the end of the day your investing in their ideas 100%.

In your words, If you can't complain if you don't vote......well you can't complain if your paying for someone to screw you either.

So how does defiance of the law by one or two help the cause. Only thing that does is fatten the coffers of the consolidated fund. If you want to be taken seriously by 'the system' learn to work within it. Widespread civil disobediance... well thats another matter.

[Brian407]

Brian, you're coming off as an arm-chair shot caller, identifying problems for other to solve, without specific solutions.

Not at all, i'm more than happy to roll the sleeves up and be involved, problem is that I havent yet seen anyone come up with a specific issue to confront, just lots of generalisations of 'wanting to be the masters of our own destiny' which we all know simply isnt achievable.

[Berries]

That's it in a nutshell. Specific issues vary between people. Some hate cheesecutters, others don't have a problem with wire rope barriers. Some think the ACC component should be the same for all road users, others think that there is an increased risk in riding on two wheels so why shouldn't there be a different levy? Some are ATGATT preachers, some even wear hi-viz. Others just want to ride.

As one of those "pricks who just wants to ride" as caseye so eloquently put it, I find it hard to think of an issue that would cause to me join in in a group protest.* I will ride around/deal with/get over roading issues like shit surfaces and wire rope, I will ignore ATGATT and hi-viz if ever legislated. I just want to ride, and at the moment I can't see anything on the horizon that will stop me doing so.



*Actually, if there is a ride to get shot of MotoNZ and get back my $30pa I might be tempted. Fucking pointless exercise that was/is.

[GrayWolf]

Your not even man enough to risk riding without rego. Why the hell should we listen to you.
You can file all the paper work you want. At the end of the day your investing in their ideas 100%.

In your words, If you can't complain if you don't vote......well you can't complain if your paying for someone to screw you either.

One thing that comes with age should be wisdom. 30yrs ago? I would have given much the same response as you. Now I realise that by seeming to 'toe the line' I can actualy gain more ground than being a direct rebel and chest poker of beaurocrats. At the end of the day, the Minister is a FIGUREHEAD, he takes the flack/glory/blame/fall/rise in profile.. but all the work is performed by the civil servants in the background. It is these 'grey men' that you are truly fighting, and they will hide behind or be obscured by the figurehead. THey are only going to respond to 'pressure' applied by either the minister, or 'public opinion/perception'. If you dont pay your rego and attack them? they have an instant 'out' for any discourse or negotiations.


So how does defiance of the law by one or two help the cause. Only thing that does is fatten the coffers of the consolidated fund. If you want to be taken seriously by 'the system' learn to work within it. Widespread civil disobediance... well thats another matter.

Agreed, I lived in the UK when the whole country reacted to the Poll Tax.. it took almost 2 years of pressure, mass I repeat MASS non payment, and in the end actual civil disruptions to alter the situation. I have mentioned before the "leg protector' bill introduced by Peter Bottomly (minister for transport in the UK) ONlY a concerted, research proven, with several pressure groups working together to overturn the proposal.


Okay, i get that, but I cant help wonder about how the message has been getting out to the hamlets and sheep stations. I'm aware of the fight because I spend a fair amount of time on the Internet (nature of my job until recently), but i'm also aware of many others who dont frequent the net, and are simply not aware that groups such as MAG, AAG, MSC, Bronz etc exist. How are you getting the message to those people.

I consider myself an average motorcyclist. I've been riding for almost 40 years, I read the newspaper most days, I listen to news as often as possible and I try to attend at least three rallies a year, finances permitting. I dont spend a lot of time at bike shops and dont subscribe to any bike mags. I read them when in waiting rooms, or when they're on the smoko room etc, but if it wasnt for the net, and the occasional story in a mag I wouldnt even be aware of the MSC, and I know plenty that arent.

My point is that maybe the message delivery system needs to be looked at, then the message itself needs looked at. Most people have little tolerance for long winded arguments in political speak, thats why the average man thinks that politicians are prats. If you have a 2 word message, use 5 words to get it across, not 200. You'll have lost most people at 20, and the majority of the remaining will give up at 50. Those die hards that stay till the last are already converted and theres nothing to be gained by trying to convince them. Underlying principle is KISS, and i'm sure you know what that means.

Yes there has be a co-ordinated approach, but first you have to find what most people are willing to support, and most people dont become passionate about a cause until they can actually see how it will directly affect them, so far the arguements presented have been far too general for most people to grasp. Be specific, and confront issues one at a time.

I fully expect this post to be met with howls of dismissave indignace and 'yes but' reponses, but if thats all that happens, at least it's ensured that the issues are alive and still being talked about.

Yes BUT :lol:
Some of the biggest issues IS the approach towards meeting beaurocrats etc. Often (Using Stoney as a good example) It DOES need an up front/loud/almost belligerant or agressive stance to activate people. I dont think anyone can decry the end result of Stoney and Co's work if you look at the Bikehoi.. However, there also sometimes needs to be a 'handover'? to those who can 'talk quietly' and argue beaurocraticaly when the meeting with Polititions are no longer 'media obvious'. Polititions LOVE media exposure it's their meat and drink. So often when you watch these MP's at rallies, they say a lot of words, that sound good, sound as if they are actualy taking on board what you are saying. However if you listen carefully they say a lot of 'nothing'. (A classic example is the MP when they promise a return to 'good family value's' in their manifesto.... Really? Do they actualy spell out? what these values are? NO! They've said what you WANT to hear, traditional family values? Ask a Maori, an Indian Asian, A Chinese, English, Pakeha, Samoan.. they will all have a different idea on 'family values'. So the MP has in the listeners mind actualy promised you all the same thing, WITHOUT saying what he means). To return to my point, I watched the public meeting with interest, there were those 'on the steps' who did rally the crowd, who DID get the MP's and media to respond... There IMHO were also a few excellent but wasted rescources that day... Again IMO in particular, there was a gentleman in his 60's who was a school teacher and a motorcyclist of many years.. THIS is the sort of face you need to deal with the 'unseen' meetings. it's the face that the 'grey men/councillors etc' will respond to. BUt then the 'elder' of us will be seen as not 'proactive' not rebellious enough by the younger people. It is one of life lesson's.. when young everything is black and white, if it's wrong? Then fix it. As I got older, I started to see so many shades of grey in situations. Motorcycling has been untill the recent 'baby boomer' return to riding, a young man's domian in the majority. It is easy for polititian's to manipulate the situation by simply showing a 'rowdy gathering' of the' horrid bikie types', or the smashed up sprot bike with the racing suited rider lying smashed up..... Building public perception. However, have a grey haired quiet spoken articulate man/woman? There is no media milage to be gained, or public display to show...
Thats my idea's on this..... and I am simply voicing MY thoughts and I am neither decrying, targetting, or bellitling any person. I will say again those mentioned by name did a bloody good job rousing the 'masses' to protest.

[Brian407]

Totally agree, but perhaps I should clarify a little. My 5 words message approach is aimed at getting riders on board to support a message to the politicians. Your 60's something, articulate, school teacher talking to the Grey Men in suits, without media is absolutely the right way to get the message to the law makers. But first things first, and the first thing is to find an issue that all (or at least many) will support, and it's my belief that as of yet that issue hasnt been found, and Berries has highlighted that perfectly.

[NONONO]

How's this for short sharp and to the point;
"Riders Are Voters Too".
Got us nowhere because we could not get a consensus on how to use it or who controlled it. It also came with the MAG tag (although it was pushed out to any that would support it) and that was unacceptable to some.
It spoke to numbers. When we met with senior politicians they were quite concerned about the numbers we believed we could reach with such a message, we failed.
It also spoke to action, the doing, as Cas states. The act of making your vote count, again we failed.

KISS?
ACC hikes, No!
Motorcycle Safety Levy, No!
Motorcycle Safety Levy Establishment Committee, No!
How simple can it be?

But as with all things the simple message often has deeper meaning. For example. ACC was and is being prepared for sale, Woodhouse was and has been dismantled. Some of us opposed the above, some thought it was a great idea, others cared less. It was and is all tied together. Consensus is never simple. We were all aware that the nonsense being put forward by Smith and Judge was just that, nonsense. We countered it with Professor Lamb's research, and a lot of our own (Bogan is the man)again we failed.
But, we have not given up as individuals, so if you got something, bring it on. Let's try again.

[Katman]

For us to gain the sympathetic (read concerned) ear of the politicians we need to gain far greater public support.

To gain public support we need to be seen as existing within the bounds expected by society.

We have much to clean up in our own back yard before we can hope for anyone to take us seriously.

[swbarnett]

Are you seriously suggesting you don't believe there's any need (or room) for improvement?
Yes and No.

I do agree that, as a group, we could do better. However, I don't believe it is within the realms of human nature for "us" to improve sufficiently to get the politicians off our backs. I think it would be far better to attack the prejudice than ourselves.

[swbarnett]

With the expectation that their very survival may depend on it ... I would think "Human nature" may have to adapt to different thinking ...
That's the problem. Human nature is to hold the "won't happen to me" attitude until it does. Because kids are no longer allowed to climb trees they still believe themselves to be invincible when they get on to motorised transport.

[Katman]

I do agree that, as a group, we could do better. However, I don't believe it is within the realms of human nature for "us" to improve sufficiently to get the politicians off our backs. I think it would be far better to attack the prejudice than ourselves.

So where exactly do you think the prejudice of the term 'temporary New Zealander' stemmed from?

[NONONO]

For us to gain the sympathetic (read concerned) ear of the politicians we need to gain far greater public support.

To gain public support we need to be seen as existing within the bounds expected by society.

We have much to clean up in our own back yard before we can hope for anyone to take us seriously.

Not again!
I exist within the bounds expected by society as you put it.
I ride LEGALLY, that is, I have a license, the bike's warranted.
I go even further, I have full insurance and keep the bike well serviced. My license is clean.
As far as I'm concerned that's enough.
You keep putting this CUOOBY argument in the wrong context.
Yes, no one wants to see bikers down, however that's a matter of safety and personal choice. If your argument held water then surely the awful number of fatalities over the Xmas period would warrant the raising of ACC levies on cars?
Becoming shiny, bright paragons of virtue will not change the governments attitude to bikers and motorcycling in general, in any way. Neither will it alter the public's perspective, they simply do not give a toss, it does not concern them. They are not bikers.
If, by any chance they did become interested, or the govt decided to act equitably (if we CUOOBY'd) such a change would be generational. By that time motorcycling will have changed way beyond what we understand it to be.
Your argument simply mirrors the one put forward by Smith and Judge, that the levy hikes are justified because it's our own fault. Only the remedy differs.

[Katman]

Your argument simply mirrors the one put forward by Smith and Judge, that the levy hikes are justified because it's our own fault. Only the remedy differs.

It's an argument supported by a far greater number than just Smith and Judge.

And the beauty of my remedy is that it doesn't cost us a cent.

[NONONO]

Worn down by persistence...you never answer the question, simply re state your position.
Anyway, FFS! Happy New Year Katman. Time for a ride before the rain starts again.

[swbarnett]

So where exactly do you think the prejudice of the term 'temporary New Zealander' stemmed from?
An emotional misinterpretation of the statistics. An inability to see past the few that get hurt to the many that go about their rides without incident on a regular basis.

[Katman]

An emotional misinterpretation of the statistics. An inability to see past the few that get hurt to the many that go about their rides without incident on a regular basis.

<img src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_L0AFjZ5WxMA/TSNyOnGKx6I/AAAAAAAAAt8/ZIY-ABqhYyw/s1600/ostrichpic.jpg"/>

[Katman]

And the major problem with any of the motorcycling lobby groups that have appeared supposedly for our benefit is that they see anything resembling compromise as simply showing weakness.

The hard man biker approach is not going to win us any friends among those in power who could further our cause.

Perhaps forceful lobbying to improve the standard of motorcycle training in the country would go far further than our current bitching and moaning about everything and everyone other than ourselves.

[Flip]

For us to gain the sympathetic (read concerned) ear of the politicians we need to gain far greater public support.

To gain public support we need to be seen as existing within the bounds expected by society.

We have much to clean up in our own back yard before we can hope for anyone to take us seriously.

This would be the first time I have (and will) ever agreed with Katrman about anything.

In the 20's and 30's every working man had a motorcycle/combo and it was normal way to get to work. After 1950 and the invention of bike gangs motorcycling became an anti-social activity. Remember the Honda add "you meet the nicest people on a Honda". These days the bike gangs are dying of old age and everybody’s granddad, uncle, father and brother rides a motorbike for recreation. Motorcycling has become a normal way to go on holiday.

Motorcycling is becoming a normal recreational activity, sure the not undeserved label of temporary kiwis is going to be around for a while, but given the govt has commissioned the Safer Journeys document strongly suggests to me that motorcycling has become mainstream and normal and acceptable thing for people to do.

About my only concern with the Safer Journeys doc was it was a bit light on a re-training plan.

Personally as an old school rider, I don't feel comfortable becoming a mainstream activity.

[caseye]

Guys, keep this up and we might actually get somewhere.
Today I see discussion, not argument, I see good humour not sneering.These things are important to a group that wants to go forwards.
I see Steve's message and it's delivery the same way as many here do, direct, to the point and uncompromising and yes it does speak against most of the 10% of foolish riders who do give the rest of us a bad name, it's not everyone of us that is expected to conform(in most cases we do anyway, aye Phil?) just the 10% and we could help that along by not condoning their actions when they do behave stupidly, there's almost always more ordinary careful and respectful riders out and about than idiots, say something, don't condone it, do our personal individual best to make it unacceptable and who knows what can be changed.
Yes the back room boys are the ones we want to get our voices heard by, yes the older quietly spoken rider has a place in such circumstances and yes our very own Stoney and his 100% heartfelt supporters/organizers do deserve the thanks of most bikers for at least trying and achieving what was a significant milestone in biking history.
The pity is that no one was able to continue the momentum and carry off the prize of actually being listened to and taken some notice of.
That is why we are still writing screeds here in this thread.
If the objective was to topple the MOTO I'd be in!
Next???

[DMNTD]

...Perhaps forceful lobbying to improve the standard of motorcycle training in the country would go far further than our current bitching and moaning about everything and everyone other than ourselves.


100% agreed but would also add that training directed towards car/truck/etc drivers re looking out for everyone else on the road (especially motorcyclists) would also be of great benefit for all.

[MSTRS]

You signed up to KB in 2009, if what you say you are able to do is so effective, why weren't you here doing it then?
FUCK YOU!


Not at all, i'm more than happy to roll the sleeves up and be involved, problem is that I havent yet seen anyone come up with a specific issue to confront, just lots of generalisations of 'wanting to be the masters of our own destiny' which we all know simply isnt achievable.


Totally agree, but perhaps I should clarify a little. My 5 words message approach is aimed at getting riders on board to support a message to the politicians. Your 60's something, articulate, school teacher talking to the Grey Men in suits, without media is absolutely the right way to get the message to the law makers. But first things first, and the first thing is to find an issue that all (or at least many) will support, and it's my belief that as of yet that issue hasnt been found, and Berries has highlighted that perfectly.

I rest my case (if I ever had one). You want someone else to do it. Get it through your head - there is no-one else. Only you.
Collectively, we might be a threat to any given policy from govt or one of their agencies. But there is no collective.
12,000 of us went to parliament to protest a $500 hike in ACC levy. Barring multiple ownerships, that's 10% of bike riders. Not nearly enough to be considered a collective, cohesive force to be reckoned with.
Consider this - over 300,000 signed the petition re the repeal of Section 59. That's way over 10% of parents, but well under of the whole population. They managed to make a small difference to the outcome of that proposed change. Just like we did with the Bikeoi. But neither were the desired result, were they?
Individually, we are a voice in the wilderness. There's no threat in that.
We've had 'someone on the inside' - they were in the perfect place to do some good. But what happened? They were actually in the perfect place to be muzzled and controlled by those we seek to influence. When one in particular refused to be controlled, he was shafted and given the flick by the rest.
I've had discussions with some riders who work for some of the agencies that threaten us. They know the issues, they know what's going on and they know what's planned for the future. But they also won't declare themselves and speak up, because they won't risk their livelihoods. I know as many as 5 local cops who ride bikes - they ALL had their duty roster changed, and were told no excuses, so they would be working 17.11.09.

Now - this is not defeatist talk. It is just stating the situation. If you can come up with a way forward, one that will be supported by the majority because it will make a measurable improvement in even one thing that affects bikers - then please do so. If you can reach every biker in the country (cos KB is still only a small section of the total biker 'community') with even one thing they can relate to and support - then please do so. If you can finance (or know someone who will) any such effort - then please do so. If you know of a way to reach and influence the grey men - then please do so AND tell us what it is. Making submissions to a working paper isn't it either. We all do that as a matter of course.
Take the lead instead of pointing the finger of fail at all those who came before.

[Katman]

100% agreed but would also add that training directed towards car/truck/etc drivers re looking out for everyone else on the road (especially motorcyclists) would also be of great benefit for all.

Absolutely Chris.

But to be seen, by our own volition, to be taking a pro-active stance in our own safety would quite possibly spur the powers that be into expecting similar from all other road users.

[MSTRS]

Absolutely Chris.

But to be seen, on our own volition, to be taking a pro-active stance in our own safety would quite possibly spur the powers that be into expecting similar from all other road users.

Admirable. But even more of a pipe dream than expecting all bikers to behave.

[Katman]

Admirable. But even more of a pipe dream than expecting all bikers to behave.

And even if they didn't John, we'd still have won simply by virtue of having improved our own chance of survival.

[MSTRS]

And even if they didn't John, we'd still have won simply by virtue of having improved our own chance of survival.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm 100% behind you (scary huh?).
However, I do think the reality is that there are only individual wins...as measured by the survival of individuals.

[Katman]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm 100% behind you (scary huh?).
However, I do think the reality is that there are only individual wins...as measured by the survival of individuals.

And if, in doing so, we could slash the average number of motorcyclist fatalities each year I think we could see some very useful leverage gained.

Attack needs to be made from a position of strength - not weakness.

[MSTRS]

And if, in doing so, we could slash the average number of motorcyclist fatalities each year I think we could see some very useful leverage gained.

And that brings us back to some of the things some of us have been campaigning for...it's a package deal.

[Katman]

And that brings us back to some of the things some of us have been campaigning for...it's a package deal.

Except I don't recall in the past there being too much campaigning for a greater standard of motorcycling.

[swbarnett]

Some stupid picture....
Right back at ya!

If the roles were reversed and the number of registered bike far outweighed that of cars it would be the car drivers that would have that title or some equally undeserved label. It's a matter of yet another minority being discriminated against.

[StoneY]

Been here a bloody site longer than 5 minutes,

Not by KB standards fellah


And, i hope you're not referring to this forum as 'the coalface' because it's absolutely the wrong place to begin trying to organise people. I've been watching with interest for years while forums such as this bitch and moan, and amount to nothing.

And where do you think the 9000+ who went to the BIKOI were organised pal? Right here....on Kiwibiker.


I dont care if your talking motorcyclists or kindergarten kids, everybody can become united in the pursuit of a common goal. Trick is to make the goal worth pursuing, and thats never going to happen on this forum.

As above.
Off you go mr Policy Maker, I reckon you should go visit Gareth and his merry crew and impart your wisdom, maybe you can spend my 90$ I donated to the fund last year on my behalf.

[Brian407]

Except I don't recall in the past there being too much campaigning for a greater standard of motorcycling.

Now there's a step forward. Weve got to be seen to be cleaning up our own back yard before we can complain about someone elses. I've said in the past thats it's pathetically easy to get a licence in this country and theres no followup or refreshers after that. Address that, and thats what Safer Journeys is proposing (at least in part) and the standard will improve over time. Only once the overall standard improves will we have a dogs show of being taken seriously, and that, unfortunately, will take legislation. No amount of rallies and meetings to try and convince riders to clean up thier act is going to make a blind bit of difference, because most of them dont think theres anything wrong with the way they ride, as is evidenced here on a daily basis.

MSTRS, you accuse me of wanting 'someone else to do it'. Sorry buddy but thats simply not true, but I dont have a silver bullet solution, anymore than anyone else does, and its clear that there isnt one. It's blatantely obvious that there will never be a consensus amonst motorcyclists untill all agree on one specific issue that affects them. My only wish here was, and still is, that as many as possible provide submissions to the Safer Journeys document on the table at the moment and show that at least some of still care about our destiny. I got shot down for that, and I came back fighting. Is there something wrong with that. If you've got all the experience here, then surely you'll know of at least one specific issue that can be targeted (for me it's the woeful lack of training and licence standards) to get the ball rolling properly. Wars are won One Battle at a Time.

[James Deuce]

Guys, keep this up and we might actually get somewhere.
Today I see discussion, not argument, I see good humour not sneering.These things are important to a group that wants to go forwards.
I see Steve's message and it's delivery the same way as many here do, direct, to the point and uncompromising and yes it does speak against most of the 10% of foolish riders who do give the rest of us a bad name, it's not everyone of us that is expected to conform(in most cases we do anyway, aye Phil?) just the 10% and we could help that along by not condoning their actions when they do behave stupidly, there's almost always more ordinary careful and respectful riders out and about than idiots, say something, don't condone it, do our personal individual best to make it unacceptable and who knows what can be changed.
Yes the back room boys are the ones we want to get our voices heard by, yes the older quietly spoken rider has a place in such circumstances and yes our very own Stoney and his 100% heartfelt supporters/organizers do deserve the thanks of most bikers for at least trying and achieving what was a significant milestone in biking history.
The pity is that no one was able to continue the momentum and carry off the prize of actually being listened to and taken some notice of.
That is why we are still writing screeds here in this thread.
If the objective was to topple the MOTO I'd be in!
Next???

10%? I'd say 80-90% of riders need to review what they see as acceptable behaviour on the road. Having just got back on a bike after 2 years away and expecting to be useless, I went and spent time in carparks and on backroads reviewing practical and mental exercises, and lo and behold when I felt confident enough to hit the Rimutakas to commute to work for a couple of days last week saw two extremes of motorcycling activity that set my teeth on edge. Wrong side of the road, blind overtakes, overshooting corners and running into the fence on the wrong side of the road and traveling so slowly that a considerable (and frustrated) queue grows behind. It wasn't even me causing it! I'm really tired of being over and undertaken by "bikers" just for them to hold me up mid-corner 30m down the road.

Stoney? Nah. Les put a huge effort in, drafted much of the policy, led most of the negotiation and got thoroughly reamed with an awl for his reward. Such is the memory of the average biker, they don't even remember him a couple of years down the track. After holding the fort for a couple of decades while HOG and Ulysses spent vast sums on tassels, King and Queen seats, and backless chaps, Les kept BRONZ going and a weather eye on Givernment (sic) activity in regard to motorcycling. He invented the word "sheeple" for goodness sake, so carelessly thrown my way a few posts ago.

The way forward requires HOG and Ulysses to become politically active and slightly radicalised. They have the biggest active motorcycling memberships in the country, lots and lots of money, but absolutely no will to do anything about the marginilisation of motorcycling and its devotees. They have enough money to weather pretty much any "storm" that comes their way. Or maybe not. I do know they were pretty quiet last time around.

As MSTRS has said, 10,000 needs to turn into 100,000. We need to do the French biker thing and shut cities down. Despite the Social Engineering party having been gone from power for three years, it appears that the current lot have no qualms continuing with an essentially socialist concept.

[Katman]

Right back at ya!

If the roles were reversed and the number of registered bike far outweighed that of cars it would be the car drivers that would have that title or some equally undeserved label. It's a matter of yet another minority being discriminated against.

I'll try to spell it out for you........

There is a huge number of motorcycle accidents that are caused through either stupidity, incompetance or inattention on the part of the motorcyclist.

Due to the nature of our increased vulnerability those accidents are made plainly noticeable to the general public.

It's not prejudice, it's fact.

If we set about addressing those accidents that need never have happened we'd be well on the way to fixing the problem.

[Owl]

He invented the word "sheeple" for goodness sake

No he didn't!:no:

[James Deuce]

No he didn't!:no:

Ok then. The BRONZ column in KR introduced the concept to motocyclists in NZ with special regard to motorcycling contextually.

[MSTRS]

Except I don't recall in the past there being too much campaigning for a greater standard of motorcycling.
Your campaign on this subject has been utterly tireless. And I respect you for that...


I'll try to spell it out for you........

There is a huge number of motorcycle accidents that are caused through either stupidity, incompetance or inattention on the part of the motorcyclist.

Due to the nature of our increased vulnerability those accidents are made plainly noticeable to the general public.

It's not prejudice, it's fact.

If we set about addressing those accidents that need never have happened we'd be well on the way to fixing the problem.

There ya go, people. He has spelled it out. We know he's right.
Want we want to know is - how do you piss into the wind and not get your shoes wet?

[FJRider]

That's the problem. Human nature is to hold the "won't happen to me" attitude until it does. Because kids are no longer allowed to climb trees they still believe themselves to be invincible when they get on to motorised transport.

As the "wont happen to me" group, are closely related to the "not my fault" group .... not in the wrong, means they are/were doing it right.

In the "right" ... but dead ...

or ...

A change of "attitude" ... and ... alive ... ????

Individual choice ...

[MSTRS]

Been here a bloody site longer than 5 minutes, and yes, after almost 40 years of riding bikes, and almost as many years in policy making roles I think i might know a thing or two about what needs to be done to get a collective, and heard, voice.

Just thought I would quote this little gem, to put the below in perspective...


We've got to be seen to be cleaning up our own back yard before we can complain about someone elses. I've said in the past thats it's pathetically easy to get a licence in this country and theres no followup or refreshers after that. Address that, and thats what Safer Journeys is proposing (at least in part) and the standard will improve over time. Only once the overall standard improves will we have a dogs show of being taken seriously, and that, unfortunately, will take legislation. No amount of rallies and meetings to try and convince riders to clean up thier act is going to make a blind bit of difference, because most of them dont think theres anything wrong with the way they ride, as is evidenced here on a daily basis.

MSTRS, you accuse me of wanting 'someone else to do it'. Sorry buddy but thats simply not true, but I dont have a silver bullet solution, anymore than anyone else does, and its clear that there isnt one. It's blatantely obvious that there will never be a consensus amonst motorcyclists untill all agree on one specific issue that affects them. My only wish here was, and still is, that as many as possible provide submissions to the Safer Journeys document on the table at the moment and show that at least some of still care about our destiny. I got shot down for that, and I came back fighting. Is there something wrong with that. If you've got all the experience here, then surely you'll know of at least one specific issue that can be targeted (for me it's the woeful lack of training and licence standards) to get the ball rolling properly. Wars are won One Battle at a Time.

The best you can come up with, despite your assertion that you know what needs to be done, is to make submissions?

Submissions to working papers are all very well. You'd think that it gives us a chance to be heard.
Eh!! Wrong!!
How much consideration was given to the record 3000ish subs made when ACC asked for opinions on their proposals? About none IS the correct answer.
Just like trick questionnaires that seem to give you a voice, but which are worded in such a way as to require specific answers, unless your submission agrees with one or more of the proposals - then it's not worth the time it takes to research and write.
But yes, despite knowing that, many of us will still take the opportunity to try and be heard.

Seven years of relative militancy and out-spokenness has me at the point where I agree with those that say storming the Bastille is the only way to get heard.

[Bald Eagle]

Regrettably in this country even outright civil disorder as seen in 1981 was not enough to change the political masters opinions. The Springbok tour was completed in spite of thousands taking violence to the streets.

A new way needs to be found to actually force the political masters to take notice and actually change their minds.

[Brian407]

Seven years of relative militancy and out-spokenness has me at the point where I agree with those that say storming the Bastille is the only way to get heard.

Well then you'd be wrong. Campaigning for change is one thing. Offering a serious and VIABLE alternative is quite another, and the viable alternative here is to put our hands up and say hey we know the skill level is shit and were prepared to do something about it, and we will contribute to and support any serious legislation that successfully addresses that. Do that, and the change will come over time, as will reduced costs. Stop the bloody protests and get on board with them. Fight from the inside.

[MSTRS]

Well then you'd be wrong. Campaigning for change is one thing. Offering a serious and VIABLE alternative is quite another, and the viable alternative here is to put our hands up and say hey we know the skill level is shit and were prepared to do something about it, and we will contribute to and support any serious legislation that successfully addresses that. Do that, and the change will come over time, as will reduced costs. Stop the bloody protests and get on board with them. Fight from the inside.

I promote safe riding as much as Katman does, and like him I am a mentor on here, available to assist anyone who wants help with some aspect of riding. I 'have words' with scroterists being prats (and there's a million ways they do that, eh?), in the hope that they will think about what they are doing and if they ever transition to motorcycles they will get some advice on survival techniques.

Getting back to the submission process - remember the one NZTA put out re m/c daytime headlight use? They were flooded with subs on the subject. I don't know what most of them were, but mine simply asked if 95% of bikes already have theirs on, either voluntarily or because they're wired that way, then what difference will making it law achieve? We got the law.
Then, there was another one, asking re always on daytime lights for cars. My answer to that was ...

Obviously, being seen is highly desireable, but what motorcyclists would seem to experience is that 'other motorists' are not looking. For that reason it has long been a recommendation (and now law) that motorcycles have their headlights on at all times. There is little in the way of research to prove that lights-on makes a huge difference for motorcycles, because we are still so often not seen. Being small (non-threatening?) and difficult to gauge in terms of proximity, approach and speed are huge factors in accidents stats. But at least our headlights go some way towards helping to make us stand out better.

It is the call for car headlights on that worries me. Because that will remove the one point of difference that motorcyclists have.
Yes, motorcyclists make up only 2% of the vehicle fleet, but we have the same rights to be on the roads as anyone...it is what we can do to decrease our vulnerability that is being threatened here.

Perhaps then, if cars go lights-on at all times, then to keep the point of difference, motorcycles must go hi-beam-on at all times?

We haven't seen the outcome of that paper. Yet.

[Blackbird]

Well then you'd be wrong. Campaigning for change is one thing. Offering a serious and VIABLE alternative is quite another, and the viable alternative here is to put our hands up and say hey we know the skill level is shit and were prepared to do something about it, and we will contribute to and support any serious legislation that successfully addresses that. Do that, and the change will come over time, as will reduced costs. Stop the bloody protests and get on board with them. Fight from the inside.

Brian,
Totally agree with the sentiments. Can I ask you a question? What formal refresher training or upskilling have you voluntarily undertaken in (say) the last 5 years? The question isn't designed to embarrass or have any fishooks in it by the way.

Cheers,

Geoff

[James Deuce]

You'll not see "legislation" around extra training requirements for motorcyclists except to make it more difficult to get a license in the first place, thereby reducing the desire to get a motorcycle in the first instance.

To get such legislation introduced would require access to an MP, preferably at cabinet level who would be willing to table such legislation after doing the necessary politicking to ensure the legislation would be passed into law. For what political trade off? Bear in mind that when questioned about introducing voluntary or compulsory advanced driver and rider training in the media, all Senior Traffic Superintendents have responded the same way; "Advanced driver training causes drivers to have accidents at higher speeds in more inappropriate situations."

With that attitude from the Government body charged with enforcing road safety upon road users, I doubt there would be any political motivation strong enough to provide a legislative basis for imposing extra training upon road users, particularly as such an endeavour is likely to cost license holders money, both directly and indirectly.

[MSTRS]

It also has to be said that, as far as submissions are concerned, it's a loaded game anyway.
The authorities carefully compare all submissions and any that take the same tack may be lumped together and counted as one. They've taken the cut'n'paste approach and extended it to include what they deem to be paraphrasing.
If that is truly what happens (and I'm led to believe it is a distinct possibility) then it truly is a waste of time making submissions. Individual responses countering a proposal don't carry a lot of weight, do they?

[Blackbird]

.....all Senior Traffic Superintendents have responded the same way; "Advanced driver training causes drivers to have accidents at higher speeds in more inappropriate situations."

Jim,
Have never seen this quoted. Curious to what circles it's been quoted in and what the basis for their claim is. Ironic considering that the police themselves are required to receive advanced training. Extending their presumed line of argument, there's a limit beyond which more training causes more accidents!!! Really stretching a point, you might just about be able to see a (bloody) weak correlation between trackday-type training and higher speed road accidents but that's not advanced roadcraft training which doesn't focus on speed per se.

Any authority who makes utterances of that kind is being nearly as irresponsible as stupid drivers.

[Genestho]

Well then you'd be wrong. Campaigning for change is one thing. Offering a serious and VIABLE alternative is quite another, and the viable alternative here is to put our hands up and say hey we know the skill level is shit and were prepared to do something about it, and we will contribute to and support any serious legislation that successfully addresses that. Do that, and the change will come over time, as will reduced costs. Stop the bloody protests and get on board with them. Fight from the inside.

As formally part of an unpaid group that has existed for 4 years, that has or held position on the NZTA stakholders consultation list, had open communication between ACC, Police, NZTA and reps from the local clubs and motorcycle community including the Motorcycle dealerships.

I can assure you that this approach has also been taken, we were doing what Msac were doing well before this group was assembled, on existing budgets.

We held a very successful event in March, supported by top racers in NZ who spoke on aspects of racing and road riding safety pointers, leatts neck brace display, bike rider magazine covered the event and we had just over 1000 motorcyclists attend, including local clubs, road safe attended and put on a braking display many clubs and riders attended. We were able to get questionnaires out to the public via NZTA on local roading issues.

As I already had communications I felt this group was a good approach to take alongside lobbying, especially at regional levels, to show tptb that as a community we were taking charge of own safety in the hopes that campaigns could be promoted on our behalf and legaslative advice would be heard, as well.

As said many times before on KB, govt will be 'improving safety' as part of a ten year plan.

Quite simply it will take stamina, cohesiveness and many forms of communication and spokespeople.
Belligerence and protests although not politically implicatative, create awareness and support.

Road safety aspects and the quiet lobbying are all formidable tools, each one is an important part of the jigsaw, but until there is a cohesive manifesto to promote, a media plan, collection of factual data, goals to commonly reach for in mass support in the thousands, what we have is what we've got.

However - I still believe that anything is possible..EDIT: Or is it...:weird: :facepalm:

[Katman]

Bear in mind that when questioned about introducing voluntary or compulsory advanced driver and rider training in the media, all Senior Traffic Superintendents have responded the same way; "Advanced driver training causes drivers to have accidents at higher speeds in more inappropriate situations."



I think that any advance in motorcycle training needs to be approached from a 'Defensive Riding' angle. (The current Defensive Driving Course provides very little in the way of real-world application for motorcyclists).

It appals me the number of motorcyclists who currently cannot adequately read road situations and formulate adequate defensive techniques.

All too often we hear "The bastard just pulled a U-turn in front of me" when in fact the U-turn could have been quite easily anticipated. All too often we hear "There was no-where for me to go" when in fact there was never even any consideration given to where a possible escape route might have lain.

Advanced training needs to take the form of convincing motorcyclists that there is no place for their brains to be switched off while riding.

[James Deuce]

Jim,
Have never seen this quoted. Curious to what circles it's been quoted in and what the basis for their claim is. Ironic considering that the police themselves are required to receive advanced training. Extending their presumed line of argument, there's a limit beyond which more training causes more accidents!!! Really stretching a point, you might just about be able to see a (bloody) weak correlation between trackday-type training and higher speed road accidents but that's not advanced roadcraft training which doesn't focus on speed per se.

Any authority who makes utterances of that kind is being nearly as irresponsible as stupid drivers.

Last time I heard it was a National Radio interview with Paula Rose, Which would have put it mid-last year. The first time it was quoted to my face was 1991 by the head snake (MoT) of the time, whose name escapes me, during an earlier round of ACC protests and negotiations when the issue of addressing a truly horrible accident rate was raised.

It comes up repeatedly. If you want to get "the response", simply email Paula Rose and ask for her official opinion on advanced driver education.

[Blackbird]

Last time I heard it was a National Radio interview with Paula Rose, Which would have put it mid-last year. The first time it was quoted to my face was 1991 by the head snake (MoT) of the time, whose name escapes me, during an earlier round of ACC protests and negotiations when the issue of addressing a truly horrible accident rate was raised.

It comes up repeatedly. If you want to get "the response", simply email Paula Rose and ask for her official opinion on advanced driver education.

Thanks Jim,

I was so incensed by one of her previous utterances that I tried to find her email address and failed. I'd calmed down after a wee while so didn't pursue it but if you have her address, I'd be pleased to have it!

G

[MSTRS]

Any authority who makes utterances of that kind is being nearly as irresponsible as stupid drivers.

They are. As witness the bs spouted about the results of the lowered speed tolerance the first few times it was trotted out.

[Scuba_Steve]

A new way needs to be found to actually force the political masters to take notice and actually change their minds.

Occupy parliament??? :whistle:

[Katman]

Far too many people think that Advanced Riding means little more than finding the perfect line around a corner or being able to stop in 2 metres from 60kph.

Trackday lines and road riding lines are not necessarily one in the same.

Advanced riding techniques are as much a mental issue as they are an operational one.

[Blackbird]

Far too many people think that Advanced Riding means little more than finding the perfect line around a corner or being able to stop in 2 metres from 60kph.

Trackday lines and road riding lines are not necessarily one in the same.

Advanced riding techniques are as much a mental issue as they are an operational one.

Absolutely about either advanced riding or driving! (and worryingly, a lot of motorcyclists). Have just started my IAM Observer training and the unfortunate side effect is that it's impossible to totally switch off watching others even when riding socially. I suppose it's no bad thing really, helps to keep you out of trouble :msn-wink:

[James Deuce]

Thanks Jim,

I was so incensed by one of her previous utterances that I tried to find her email address and failed. I'd calmed down after a wee while so didn't pursue it but if you have her address, I'd be pleased to have it!

G

I'll see what I can find! :)

[riffer]

Let's face it guys, in the eyes of TPTB "Advanced Rider Training" equals Track Days.

Going back, James Deuce, on your observations that Ulysses and HOG need to be more proactive in engaging with TPTB, are you aware Jim Furneaux, Ulysses Wellington Branch President and Ulysses National Executive member, works at LTNZ? His role is "Principal Advisor, Driver Training & Testing Standards". He's the man that advises LTNZ on what sort of testing standards there should be for drivers' (and riders') licenses. Ulysses are involved heavily with LTNZ (and not just through Jim) on suggestions on rider training.

Are motorcyclists also aware that BRONZ have are in discussions with LTNZ and Ulysses jointly to work with training and competitions where motorcyclists can publicly display roadcraft? As opposed to the regular demonstrations of ability to twist throttle we hear so much about?

Byron Cummins and I are working hard on the BRONZ submission to Safer Journeys. Some of you may think that it's a fait accompli, but we're willing to engage with LTNZ on helping them with what we think are some excellent suggestions and advising them on what we think are some less than optimal ones.

Personally, I think we need to stay well away from knee-jerk reactions to individual problems. Locally I see that LTNZ has jumped on the Kapiti roads, by immediately closing passing lanes and announcing that they will be reducing speed limits on all Kapiti Highways to 80km/hr asap. They also wish to introduce WRBs from Paremata through to Otaki.

We need to think longer term on the motorcycling "problem". it's not going to be fixed overnight.

[James Deuce]

Let's face it guys, in the eyes of TPTB "Advanced Rider Training" equals Track Days.

Going back, James Deuce, on your observations that Ulysses and HOG need to be more proactive in engaging with TPTB, are you aware Jim Furneaux, Ulysses Wellington Branch President and Ulysses National Executive member, works at LTNZ? His role is "Principal Advisor, Driver Training & Testing Standards". He's the man that advises LTNZ on what sort of testing standards there should be for drivers' (and riders') licenses. Ulysses are involved heavily with LTNZ (and not just through Jim) on suggestions on rider training.


Yes. No visible outcome as yet. See what I am saying?

There has literally been no outcome from any of the initiatives "undertaken" post Bikoi. Except for the looming spectre of compulsory reflective vests. Oh, and spending lots of money we gifted to a paid committee via our ACC levies, again with no positive outcomes for motorcyclists and motorcycling.

If that is unpalatable to hear, then perhaps these diverse quangos and think tanks need to develop a common communications plan and start telling people what they are doing with their ill-gotten funding from a disastrously unfair increase in levies on the mistaken premise that ACC is run on an account basis and so can justify targeting a minority?

[MSTRS]

Yes. No visible outcome as yet. See what I am saying?

There has literally been no outcome from any of the initiatives "undertaken" post Bikoi. Except for the looming spectre of compulsory reflective vests. Oh, and spending lots of money we gifted to a paid committee via our ACC levies, again with no positive outcomes for motorcyclists and motorcycling.

If that is unpalatable to hear, then perhaps these diverse quangos and think tanks need to develop a common communications plan and start telling people what they are doing with their ill-gotten funding from a disastrously unfair increase in levies on the mistaken premise that ACC is run on an account basis and so can justify targeting a minority?

A single voice, and open communication? Sacrilege. Heresy. Off to the stocks with you...

[Berries]

I was so incensed by one of her previous utterances that I tried to find her email address and failed. I'd calmed down after a wee while so didn't pursue it but if you have her address, I'd be pleased to have it!
firstname.lastname @ police.govt.nz should work. Unless her real name is Derek.

[Brian407]

Brian,
Totally agree with the sentiments. Can I ask you a question? What formal refresher training or upskilling have you voluntarily undertaken in (say) the last 5 years? The question isn't designed to embarrass or have any fishooks in it by the way.

Cheers,

Geoff

In November of last year (2011) as it happens. I have a very good friend whose son runs a motorcycle training school, i.e. approved to issue the Basic Skills Certificate, and one of his advanced course's is designed as a refresher. As a succesful F1, and now F3 racer, he knows a thing or two about skills so i took his advanced course, which taught me a couple of new tricks (even old dogs can learn new tricks) and found it to be excellent.

I absolutley believe that the way forward is too openly, and publically support any initiatve that improves the standard of training, that will eventually lead to lower stats and reduced costs, but it has to be mandated in legislation. Voluntary attendance is never going to work because only the responsible will attend, and thats not where the problem lies.

And as a friend of the recently retired Senior Sergeant for Road Safety Policing down this way, i have had many discussions regarding the merits, or lack thereof, of our current licencing systems, for both Cars and Bikes (and horse riding safety as it happens, but thats entirely another story). He has on many an occasion lamented the lack of formal training required to get a licence, with the only proof being the standard seen by the inspector on the day, and that can vary widely from one inspector to another. We are all capable of displaying our best behaviour for an hour or so while the test is undertaken.

And James, if making the licence more difficult to get improves the skill level and keeps a few off bikes that shouldnt be on them in the first place then thats a good thing, and I make no apology for supporting any moves in that direction.

And MSTRS, I dont actually have a problem with the headlight rule, on bikes or cars. In my view it has vastly increased visibilty to oncoming vehicles, especially silver cars on grey days, and I dont buy into the arguement that lights on in every vehicle will lead to driver familarity and negate the effect. In my travels I have found quite the opposite occurs. I do, however, draw the line at Hi Viz and white helmets, as i believe the 'road worker' argument holds water, and with todays modern fully faired bikes they wouldnt be visible from any real distance anyway.

To the rest of the naysayers, If you want to have any input, and a say in your future, try supporting some of the initiatives instead of protesting them all the time. Not all of this stuff is bad, but to gain any credibility at all we have to be seen to be willing to compromise.

[NONONO]

Where are the protests that you so decry?

[NONONO]

Yes. No visible outcome as yet. See what I am saying?

There has literally been no outcome from any of the initiatives "undertaken" post Bikoi. Except for the looming spectre of compulsory reflective vests. Oh, and spending lots of money we gifted to a paid committee via our ACC levies, again with no positive outcomes for motorcyclists and motorcycling.

If that is unpalatable to hear, then perhaps these diverse quangos and think tanks need to develop a common communications plan and start telling people what they are doing with their ill-gotten funding from a disastrously unfair increase in levies on the mistaken premise that ACC is run on an account basis and so can justify targeting a minority?

Yup:niceone:

[Brian407]

Where are the protests that you so decry?

In the minds of almost every motorcyclist on the road. Dont tell me that you havent had discussions at rallies where you have openly decried some new rule, or cost, in motorcycling. That, my friend, is a protest, they dont always have to be public. The Bikeoi was a public protest, which has been pointed out by many, including the organisers, achieved little more than to clog the steps of Parliment.

Not saying that protest is bad thing, quite the opposite in fact, but sometimes, and in this case, credibility can only be gained through measured support for the outcomes trying to be achieved. Show that we have common ground and they will listen more.

[Ocean1]

I'll try to spell it out for you........

There is a huge number of motorcycle accidents that are caused through either stupidity, incompetance or inattention on the part of the motorcyclist.


There ya go, people. He has spelled it out. We know he's right.
Want we want to know is - how do you piss into the wind and not get your shoes wet?

Being right doesn't do the job. No more than running in small circles yelling that the sky is falling would stop it. Leme see, what can one usefully take from Steve's monolog...

Stupidity: There's no check for that when you get your licence, and the only person with the power to reduce the number of stupid motorcyclists is Darwin. For that matter I'm not sure you can quantify "stupid", I don't believe anyone here has never committed a stupid act. How many does it take to qualify?

Incompetence: Only one way to make people competent: train 'em. It's not a bad idea insomuch as it's actually achievable. It's not on the horizon, however because the government thinks training causes crashes.

Inattention: Again, we're no more likely to be immune to that than anyone else, and the trend is to remove a lot of the stimulus that keeps us focused. And in spite of Steve's ongoing chorus it's not a characteristic of general human behaviour anyone can change.

So, one outa three. I've seen worse. Looks to me like we need to focus on making training far more accessible, in spite of governments’ policy to the contrary.

I have a paddock. A veritable army of official officiousness would descend en mass should I be unwise enough to make it available for the purpose of teaching tiddlywinks, far less motorcycles riding. Fuckem. Can anyone contribute a small fleet of slightly scruffy 125 dirt bikes?

[NONONO]

Nice thought Brian, but be assured;
"They" will not listen. Not to polite arguments, to submissions, or to generational change behavior/perceptions.
"They" do not give a flying fuck what we do.
"They" have a political and ideological agenda that involves the sale of ACC.
"They" lied, "They" created a crisis that did not exist to further there aims. "They" stole from us.
"They" in my opinion are bastards, liars and thieves.

"We" gave too much ground. "We" conceded and compromised, and are still doing so.

Lets be clear here shall we?
What, given the best of all possibilities, would we want, if we could have it?
For me;
Parity with other road users.
Return to Woodhouse.
No further legal intrusion on my right to ride legally, as and how I please, wearing what I choose to wear, when I choose to wear it.

[Brian407]

Lets be clear here shall we?
What, given the best of all possibilities, would we want, if we could have it?
For me;
Parity with other road users.
Return to Woodhouse.
No further legal intrusion on my right to ride legally, as and how I please, wearing what I choose to wear, when I choose to wear it.

Laudable, i'm sure, but you know as well as the rest of us that its never going to happen, and the "as and how I please" argument is exactly the crux of the perception problem we have now. The definition of "as and how i please" varies wildly between riders. Some are good at it, and some are appallingly bad, but they're all riding 'as and how they please'. There has to be a improvement and wide spread acceptance of rider standards before we'll get anywhere on the perception front.

They will listen if we can show we're worth listening too.

[BMWST?]

For us to gain the sympathetic (read concerned) ear of the politicians we need to gain far greater public support.

To gain public support we need to be seen as existing within the bounds expected by society.

We have much to clean up in our own back yard before we can hope for anyone to take us seriously.

the mere act of riding a motorcycle puts us beyond the understanding of 60 percent of people.Moost car drivers dont even think about motorcyclists.When pressed they will revert to a Marlon Brando stereotype.Actual riding behaviour wont even enter there heads until acc or the like are mentioned.Motorcycles are dangeraous...ALL motorcycles..... not just the ones ridden by idiots.THATS the fight we have to win

[NONONO]

Laudable, i'm sure, but you know as well as the rest of us that its never going to happen, and the "as and how I please" argument is exactly the crux of the perception problem we have now. The definition of "as and how i please" varies wildly between riders. Some are good at it, and some are appallingly bad, but they're all riding 'as and how they please'. There has to be a improvement and wide spread acceptance of rider standards before we'll get anywhere on the perception front.

They will listen if we can show we're worth listening too.

No, you see you did the slight of hand thing, which I am used to here and so can pick it up.
I said "Ride LEGALLY as and how I please".
And they will not listen, because in their mind we are not worth listening to.
So Brian, Katman and the rest, what are your requests, wishlists or wants?

[Brian407]

the mere act of riding a motorcycle puts us beyond the understanding of 60 percent of people.Moost car drivers dont even think about motorcyclists.When pressed they will revert to a Marlon Brando stereotype.Actual riding behaviour wont even enter there heads until acc or the like are mentioned.Motorcycles are dangeraous...ALL motorcycles..... not just the ones ridden by idiots.THATS the fight we have to win

While I agree with the first part of your statement, I cant agree with the second. Motorcycles, like guns, ladders, aeroplanes etc are not in themselves dangerous, inherently unstable and potentionally dangerous maybe, but only dangerous in the hands of idiots. Did you have a pushbike when you were a kid? was it dangerous? possibly! did you do dangerous things on it? probably! Did your mother think it was dangerous when you were learing to ride it? almost certianly! Did you agree? almost certianly not!

I work with electricity. Dangerous I hear you say. No, i say. Potentially dangerous in the hands of the untrained, Absolutely. Most of you wouldnt even consider working with it without sufficient training, and quite rightly so, so what makes Motorcycling any different? It's a potentially dangerous activity, where you end up just a dead if you get it wrong, yet we're allowed to do it with almost no training whatsoever. In my book thats just plain crazy.

[BMWST?]

While I agree with the first part of your statement, I cant agree with the second. Motorcycles, like guns, ladders, aeroplanes etc are not in themselves dangerous, inherently unstable and potentionally dangerous maybe, but only dangerous in the hands of idiots. Did you have a pushbike when you were a kid? was it dangerous? possibly! did you do dangerous things on it? probably! Did your mother think it was dangerous when you were learing to ride it? almost certianly! Did you agree? almost certianly not!

I work with electricity. Dangerous I hear you say. No, i say. Potentially dangerous in the hands of the untrained, Absolutely. Most of you wouldnt even consider working with it without sufficient training, and quite rightly so, so what makes Motorcycling any different? It's a potentially dangerous activity, where you end up just a dead if you get it wrong, yet we're allowed to do it with almost no training whatsoever. In my book thats just plain crazy.

you are splitting hairs..i agree with you completely.Never the less the attitude of most non motorcyclists towards motorcyclists is mostly as i describe

[Ocean1]

only dangerous in the hands of idiots.

So every motorcyclist that's died in an accident is an idiot?

[Katman]

Actual riding behaviour wont even enter there heads until acc or the like are mentioned.Motorcycles are dangeraous...ALL motorcycles..... not just the ones ridden by idiots.THATS the fight we have to win

And how do you suggest we change their perception Einstein?

How about by showing that they're not actually as dangerous as many motorcyclists seem to make out.

[NONONO]

So, whats your goal here Brian?
What do you want to achieve?
Not even asking how you will achieve it, that's another question.
Given your focus on KISS, gimme something I can follow, something achievable that the Government will listen to in the next term.
Whats your bottom line? What are you willing to sacrifice?
You know mine, even though you say it's not achievable, I say we have given away enough already. Line in the sand.
What do you hope to achieve with your "work on the inside" (anyone remember Drummer?).

[BMWST?]

And how do you suggest we change their perception Einstein?

How about by showing that they're not actually as dangerous as many motorcyclists seem to make out.

motorcyclists dont think they are dangerous EINSTEIN

[Katman]

motorcyclists dont think they are dangerous EINSTEIN

:facepalm:

[98tls]

motorcyclists dont think they are dangerous EINSTEIN

Internet motorcycling aint it grand,bunch of motorcyclists with some time on there hands pull up a chair and give an opinion for all.Not a crack at you personally fella just an observation after reading a few pages.I sometimes come back to this thread and think "whoops" ive logged in to an overseas based forum,theres 4 fellas i ride with as a rule all have read this thread at my pleading and all shake there heads and say the same thing "what the fuck is all there fuss about?what exactly are these guys so up in arms about?

[caseye]

"Drummer" took one look and ran screaming from the room.Now that is a dangerous fella.
Wonder how much he'd charge to carry in the IED??? lol.kidding. or not???

[NONONO]

I was sort of fond of Drummer, completely strange, but who am I to say?
Missed his earlier rantings, but he was sort of deranged in a flock wall paper sort of way.
Got the Yacht club thing started anyway.
Notice that Brian has yet to answer my last question, but that's up to him, it's only KB after all.

[caspernz]

motorcyclists dont think they are dangerous EINSTEIN

That simple line kinda sums up a good part of the problem. Lots of riders see the problem as not being theirs, partly right of course. My take on it is that we can make better progress as a group by improving our own skills and to go with it, our own on-road behaviour. Now I've followed the various debates on here, and as an observation....a big problem is that we as a group can't even agree on how to move forward.

My approach is simple...to improve the world, start with one self... Lots of driver training at work, and rider (refresher) training as recently as a couple of months ago.

Now I don't know Katman personally, but judging by the posts his way of thinking seems a lot like mine. The vast majority of accidents bikers are involved in are preventable, even the ones which are by and large blamed on another vehicle/driver. The irony is that having been exposed to the SMITH driver training system at work, for years, over and over and over....this defensive approach stays with me when on the bike or driving my own car. It makes me cringe observing other traffic at times.

Track based training improves bike control skills, which does apply on-road, but needs to be combined with the right attitude. I'm all for compulsory driver and rider training, tougher licensing regimes, refreshers for drivers licence at regular intervals....yeah right?

Getting a drivers licence is still just a bit of a laugh really, compared to most European countries anyhow. As long as it's seen as a right as opposed to a privilege which it should be, the general driver populations' abilities won't improve will they?

[Brian407]

Notice that Brian has yet to answer my last question, but that's up to him, it's only KB after all.

Oddly enough, I actually have a life other than this forum, but none the less, please accept my deepest apology for not responding to your question in a timely fashion. Cant help but wonder, though, if you've actually been reading my posts, as by now i would have thought it was pretty obvious what my goal is. Mandatory training and more stringent testing. Not just for us though, most road users need better training. I have all 6 classes of licence, and F,T,W and R as well, and 1 and 6 are the only ones that i didnt have to prove a high level of competence in to get. How many bike accidents involve trucks ? F All, why, because truck drivers are trained better and take fewer risks on the road.

Did you know that in Tokyo, one of the most populous cities in the world, driver training can only be done by driving schools that have met, and continue to meet, very stringent standards. None of this mum and dad stuff that we have here, and did you know that they have one of the lowest accident rates anywhere. Try driving there with your kiwi training? most of us dont hack the first half mile without attracting the attention of the police.

Just about everywhere, except possibly third world countries, have better drivers than us. Why? Because they have better training. In most places attendance at at least one, and in some cases two, practical training courses is mandatory before a licence is granted (remember driving/riding on public roads is a priviledge, not a right). Here we have the basic skills test, which only a complete moron could fail, and a scratchy board before we allow riders on the road. Then we have 6 months of essentially unsupervised riding in mainstream traffic before passing a 'ride round the block' test to allow more freedom for the next 18 months of unsupervised riding before the final test of 'skills' gained from absolutely no training at all. And we wonder why the public in general percieve us as being 'temporary kiwis'.

[98tls]

Oddly enough, I actually have a life other than this forum, but none the less, please accept my deepest apology for not responding to your question in a timely fashion. Cant help but wonder, though, if you've actually been reading my posts, as by now i would have thought it was pretty obvious what my goal is. Mandatory training and more stringent testing. Not just for us though, most road users need better training. I have all 6 classes of licence, and F,T,W and R as well, and 1 and 6 are the only ones that i didnt have to prove a high level of competence in to get. How many bike accidents involve trucks ? F All, why, because truck drivers are trained better and take fewer risks on the road.

Did you know that in Tokyo, one of the most populous cities in the world, driver training can only be done by driving schools that have met, and continue to meet, very stringent standards. None of this mum and dad stuff that we have here, and did you know that they have one of the lowest accident rates anywhere. Try driving there with your kiwi training? most of us dont hack the first half mile without attracting the attention of the police.

Just about everywhere, except possibly third world countries, have better drivers than us. Why? Because they have better training. In most places attendance at at least one, and in some cases two, practical training courses is mandatory before a licence is granted (remember driving/riding on public roads is a priviledge, not a right). Here we have the basic skills test, which only a complete moron could fail, and a scratchy board before we allow riders on the road. Then we have 6 months of essentially unsupervised riding in mainstream traffic before passing a 'ride round the block' test to allow more freedom for the next 18 months of unsupervised riding before the final test of 'skills' gained from absolutely no training at all. And we wonder why the public in general percieve us as being 'temporary kiwis'.

Fella spend some time riding over on the West coast then tell me again about overseas drivers.:weird:Many of em cant obey even the most basic,from what i understand the direction of an arrows pretty universal.

[Brian407]

Fella spend some time riding over on the West coast then tell me again about overseas drivers.:weird:Many of em cant obey even the most basic,from what i understand the direction of an arrows pretty universal.

Been there, done that. You need to identify your asians better than that. For the most part the Japanese are excellent drivers. They are courteous, patient, and very forgiving. Koreans and Chinese however are a completely different story. If you a want a really bad driver, try a Mexican taxi driver in Tijuana. They dont have a licence test of any sort, just pay a fee to the local drug lord and away they go.

[Flip]

Been there, done that. You need to identify your asians better than that. For the most part the Japanese are excellent drivers. They are courteous, patient, and very forgiving. Koreans and Chinese however are a completely different story. If you a want a really bad driver, try a Mexican taxi driver in Tijuana. They dont have a licence test of any sort, just pay a fee to the local drug lord and away they go.

Are you a pom? Are you sure the number after your name is not 747?

[Brian407]

Are you a pom? Are you sure the number after your name is not 747?

Nope, Southland born and bred. Travelled a lot in the 80's and mid 90's. Sometimes for conferences, sometimes for dealer incentive trips, sometime for pleasure. Something wrong with that?

[GrayWolf]

Not again!
I exist within the bounds expected by society as you put it.
I ride LEGALLY, that is, I have a license, the bike's warranted.
I go even further, I have full insurance and keep the bike well serviced. My license is clean.
As far as I'm concerned that's enough.
You keep putting this CUOOBY argument in the wrong context.
Yes, no one wants to see bikers down, however that's a matter of safety and personal choice. If your argument held water then surely the awful number of fatalities over the Xmas period would warrant the raising of ACC levies on cars?
Becoming shiny, bright paragons of virtue will not change the governments attitude to bikers and motorcycling in general, in any way. Neither will it alter the public's perspective, they simply do not give a toss, it does not concern them. They are not bikers.
If, by any chance they did become interested, or the govt decided to act equitably (if we CUOOBY'd) such a change would be generational. By that time motorcycling will have changed way beyond what we understand it to be.
Your argument simply mirrors the one put forward by Smith and Judge, that the levy hikes are justified because it's our own fault. Only the remedy differs.

Actualy you both have a valid point.
We do need a concerted 'effort' to apply pressure on the powers that be. BUT we also need to 'clean our act up'. As much as you may not wish to accept it. When a 'gang' is in the news, back patches etc? The instant public perception is they are 'US', motorcyclists. The sometimes stupid riding over roads like the rimutaka's.. does overtaking cars on bends and on yellow lines give a good public perception? ( I stand up and admit I do 'break the law' and exceed the speed limit at times) Although I jibe Hardly riders as do many others.. sadly many are my age group and they have loud pipes, dress in semi 'biker' gear.. often german style melmets, black face scarves covering to the eyes, etc, etc.. Not a 'good' public perception. As much as we have a right to wear what we like (for now) it does carry a public perception. I am not advocating that we all become captain sensible clones, just trying to outline some of the deep seated prejudices out there. They may read in the paper about boy racers etc,, but it is US, lane splitting and carving them up in traffic they see every day.
Polititians love this public perception, it allows them to use us as an easy target, rather than target a larger group, motorists. We do have a responsibility as a group to negate this image. Classic example was today on the ferry coming back to wellington. 4 bikes, 2 'old farts' :bleh: and 2 young guys on an R1 and R6. The two on the R's were both on lovely clean bikes, covered in Dynotune etc stickers and with aftermarket exhausts. In itself, not a problem. Both wearing good 1 piece racing suits. (public image??) Anyway, during embarking, one had to keep? blipping the throttle. When we prepared to disembark, again he sat there revving the bike for ages. It became obvious it was annoying not only the 2 'old farts' but other motorists. His mate asked him to switch off, his response was to rev it even more. Good public image! Thats what we need to clean up. Yes I know boy racers in cars do exactly the same, but they are more socialy accepted than riders, sad but true. Most of their fathers would have been 'centre plot racers/cruisers'. I am sure many can remember a coulpe of years ago when the young teenager got banned for excessive speed? His fathers response was, "he's only just got it (car). He's young, of course he is going to want to see what it will do, why are you being so hard on him?"

[GrayWolf]

Last time I heard it was a National Radio interview with Paula Rose, Which would have put it mid-last year. The first time it was quoted to my face was 1991 by the head snake (MoT) of the time, whose name escapes me, during an earlier round of ACC protests and negotiations when the issue of addressing a truly horrible accident rate was raised.

It comes up repeatedly. If you want to get "the response", simply email Paula Rose and ask for her official opinion on advanced driver education.

Aaaah Yes paula Rose,
Now can I make the obvious suggestion here?? IF she quotes that advanced rider training promotes accidents at higher speeds, and we all know that the Police are trained using some of the UK Police motorcylce roadcraft manual, as is the training for the IAM advanced test. Maybe she needs to be asked publicaly how she can reconcile that statement in the face of those facts? Because if she stands by that philosophy, then she is also saying that Police riders are overconfident and liable to higher speed accidents.
This is the sort of question that needs careful 'planning' so it is asked in a hopefully large forum like radio or with polititians about.

[NONONO]

You gotta be shitting me... If thats the best you've got then we really are fucked.

To coin a phrase.

[NONONO]

Brian
Further to the above.
My sincere apologies for not reading your posts in the minutest detail, which they obviously warrant, you being a person of some import.
So, that's it is it?
You blaze on in, making the statement that you can unite the great unwashed and have a cunning plan to win the war.
And what is your plan? Tougher license tests and mandatory re testing. Never before seen on this site eh?
Try the MOTO NZ people, should fit in well with day glo vests, arse kissing, and lousy Kiwi Saver investments.