Race chassis

[husaberg]

After such rave reviews i just had to post the second installment:innocent:

[crazy man]

this is what l'v been working on dont know if l will have time to make my own swing arm in time for the gp

http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoser...17041_full.jpg

[husaberg]

this is what l'v been working on dont know if l will have time to make my own swing arm in time for the gp

http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoser...17041_full.jpg

No time you must have lost it.

http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoser...17041_full.jpg

error 404 is that your race number:msn-wink:

You may want to use a larger font otherwise the scrutineers way throw it out.

[crazy man]

[SUP]

works on the other thread?!?....http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/98/207518798_full.jpg

[Bert]

[SUP]

works on the other thread?!?....http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/98/207518798_full.jpg

258529

Too flash for a FXR; but very nice all the same :first::niceone:

[crazy man]

258529

Too flash for a FXR; but very nice all the same :first::niceone:thats just your bike with a diesel in it

[speedpro]

Anyone we know in this photo?

258535

[jasonu]

Anyone we know in this photo?

258535

What year was that Mike?

[crazy man]

ziffle (kris smith ) ,dad ,mike green. murry cross dont know who is on my Gt50 67 maybe my brother? in some strange leathers but me beside him on the twin. l take it speedpro you are mike? long time no see

[crazy man]

What year was that Mike?l would say around 1996

[husaberg]

Although the single cylinder Ossa had 20 HP less than the powerful V4 Yamahas of Phil Read and Bill Ivy, the Ossa was 45 pounds lighter and its monocoque frame was much stiffer, giving it superior agility. The Yamahas swept the championship but, Herrero left no doubt that the little Ossa was quick and dependable. He finished seventh in the championship and claimed a third place in the final race of the season at Monza. He would once again take the 250cc Spanish National Championship.
1969 would be a big year for Herrero. He began the year winning his first Grand Prix at the opening race of the season in front of his countrymen at Jarama. After retiring from the German Grand Prix with mechanical problems, he returned with a victory at Le Mans. He followed this with third place at the Isle of Man TT, a considerable accomplishment considering his horsepower deficit on the infamous Snaefell Mountain Course. He triumphed again at Spa and was leading the championship points race when he was beset by bad luck. He crashed in the rain at the Ulster Grand Prix and suffered a broken left arm. Most observers considered his championship hopes dashed, but Herrero showed true grit by coming back to finish in a remarkable fifth place at Imola. At last race of the season in Yugoslavia, he held a one point lead in the championship. He started the race in the lead but crashed on the seventh lap, ending his championship hopes. He would finish third in the World Championship. He repeated as Spanish 250cc champion for a third consecutive year. ozebook.com/wordpress/archives/2033

<tbody>


250cc

Ossa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossa_%28motorcycle%29)

ESP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_motorcycle_Grand_Prix)
1

GER (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_motorcycle_Grand_Prix)
DNF

FRA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_motorcycle_Grand_Prix)
1

IOM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_Isle_of_Man_TT)
3

NED (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_TT)
3

BEL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_motorcycle_Grand_Prix)
1

DDR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_motorcycle_Grand_Prix)
2

CZE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Republic_motorcycle_Grand_Prix)
DNF

FIN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_motorcycle_Grand_Prix)
6

ULS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Grand_Prix)
DNF

NAT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_motorcycle_Grand_Prix)
5

YUG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslavian_motorcycle_Grand_Prix)
DNF

83

3rd

3


</tbody>


By guest writer Richard Fowler of Motorsport Retro (http://www.motorsportretro.com/). This amazing little OSSA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossa_%28motorcycle%29) 250cc Grand Prix bike finished 3rd in the 250cc World Championship in 1969. Its revolutionary monocoque stunned the Grand Prix paddock, yet the clearly superior design never found favour with the big manufacturers. Designed by Eduardo Giró, the son of OSSA founder Manuel Giró, the bike featured a six-speed gearbox mated to a single cylinder, 250 cc two-stroke rotary valve engine. It produced a modest 30 hp. The engine was no match for the fire-breathing V4 Yamahas of Phil Read (http://www.philread.org/) and Billy Ivy, but with its clever magnesium monocoque chassis, the bike weighed a full 20 kg (44 lbs) less than the class-leading Japanese competition. Riding the bike was young Spanish superstar Santiago Herrero (http://www.motorsportretro.com/2010/03/santiago-herrero-ossas-favourite-son/), who soon showed the world that despite its power deficit, the advantages of the innovative chassis were sufficient to bring the small team Grand Prix victories. Herrero reveled in the OSSA’s superior cornering and braking ability, throwing the OSSA into corners like it was a 125 cc lightweight. He was able to carry more speed whilst being super-accurate, and slice up the inside of his competitors under braking. It was all due to the monocoque superior chassis stiffness and weight. The 1969 campaign saw Herrero and the team win three Grands Prix against the previously unbeatable Yamahas and he led the Championship going into the final race—until a crash ended his title hopes. The tiny Spanish OSSA team again led the Championship in 1970, until Herrero crashed (http://www.iomtt.com/TT-Database/Events.aspx?era=3) fatally at Isle of Man TT. Devastated by his death, the OSSA team immediately withdrew from road racing, never to compete again.

Read more: http://www.bikeexif.com/ossa-motorcycle#ixzz1nTHVoSxU

[husaberg]

Part two of a ....er Story?

The Frame was Magnesium alloy.

The poor guy died of shock two days after his crash his injuries were survivable. A tragic lose of a real talent.

[boostin]

Some nice work here with some funny front ends. Also check out the Moto2 project.

http://www.cosentinoengineering.com/moto2/index_files/Page331.htm

[boostin]

scroll through the pages to have a good look at the Mk2

http://cosentinoengineering.com/index_files/Page430.htm

[crazy man]

Part two of a ....er Story?

The Frame was Magnesium alloy.

The poor guy died of shock two days after his crash his injuries were survivable. A tragic lose of a real talent.a nice bike for the day still is . l want to build up a cz 250 racer just need to find the right looking bike for it and make it

[fi5hy]

Anyone we know in this photo?

258535

That bike Murray's on #3 is still the same and still getting bashed around Kaitoke all the time by its new owners. Same paint and all

[Ivan]

holy shit your fxr is mint!!!!!!!

[crazy man]

holy shit your fxr is mint!!!!!!!no no not a fxr its a GPR 150:ar15:

[codgyoleracer]

this is what l'v been working on dont know if l will have time to make my own swing arm in time for the gp

http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoser...17041_full.jpg

Giz a ride mista...........

[Ivan]

Had a go at cutting a swing arm down to fit but it didnt work out to well lucky it was a old junker swing arm haha

[husaberg]

Found this. It mentions the Ossa as well.

[crazy man]

here is a centre hub steering bucket build in the mid 80s
261013261014

[ajturbo]

That bike Murray's on #3 is still the same and still getting bashed around Kaitoke all the time by its new owners. Same paint and all

the guy waaaay in the background in the red white and blue leathers.... Maclpine (SP..??)

[stevdar]

I just thought I would post these pictures of a couple of bikes I raced back when I was faster.
The Waddon chassis was very basic but worked very well and I think would make a fantastic bucket frame. It was light and the bike handled well, the one I had was bought from Ian Young who had finished 2nd with it ( against all the MBA twins ) in the Marlborough British champs, this should give an idea of how good it was. The motor was a Rotax.

The Scitsu in the picture was not my one but I did ride it a few times, it is 2 aluminium plates bolted together with aluminium spacers in between, this one had a Kawasaki bottom end with an RG500 pot on it, my one had a Rotax in it and is owned at this time by Neil Hodsons dad, I know this as I got a request for some original photo's so he could restore it. The handling on the Scitsu was a little problematic at first with the front end tending to chatter through fast turns, this was resolved by altering the angle on the rear suspension. The bike was a little on the heavy side and there was talk of making one out of Honey comb but I don't think this ever happened. Tony Dawson and Nick Carpenter were the builders, Tony was also the Astrolite man I think.

Where could find some more information on the kx125 one i would like to build a copy of one of these???

[cotswold]

Where could find some more information on the kx125 one i would like to build a copy of one of these???

I could try and contact Nick for the dimensions, it may take a while as I have to go through a friend with no computer

[stevdar]

I could try and contact Nick for the dimensions, it may take a while as I have to go through a friend with no computer

yes that would be fantastic if you could do that or even if i could get his contact.
If you can find anything out you can email me at 7205651@student.swin.edu.au
Ive started on building the engine to race in historics in aus. but i need a chassis as well and replica of this would be very cool.
That would be great.

[Grumph]

The traditional way to start building copy frames is to scale from pictures.....

Can't be too hard getting frames approved in Oz - a couple of mine are in use over there.

[stevdar]

The traditional way to start building copy frames is to scale from pictures.....

Can't be too hard getting frames approved in Oz - a couple of mine are in use over there.

Yeah what types of frames? because its so unusual i would probably need some kind of publication like a magazine with date and a picture or a book

[Grumph]

Mine are aermacchi replicas - from what i was told they submitted a couple of potos of the bike and there was no problem getting approval.
Contact your local officialdom and find out what level of verification is needed - the Waddon/EMC Rotax is not exactly an unknown bike.

[husaberg]

Oldie but a goodie.

Was bloody trick for its day.

Bloody fast for a 130cc Four stroke,,,

[crazy man]

l'm sure that is the bike that raced at the woodgrim gp and had a small crash and was bent up big time !

[codgyoleracer]

thats just your bike with a diesel in it

How come it hasnt got that funny front end swingarm i saw lying around your junkyard ?

[codgyoleracer]

holy shit your fxr is mint!!!!!!!

Great to see he has gone the way of all conquering Suzuki & dropped that out dated green stuff in the bin aye:drool:

[crazy man]

Great to see he has gone the way of all conquering Suzuki & dropped that out dated green stuff in the bin aye:drool:i now like engine's that don't change gears

[codgyoleracer]

i now like engine's that don't change gears

One day you might even go all Italian on me ?

[husaberg]

I will link it to crazy's thread or just post it there as well

[crazy man]

nice wright up it would be cool to be in there shoes

[Brian d marge]

Do a freebody diagram , to figure the loading Start with static first, then 45 deg static then , estimate the dynamic , ( or use strain gauges!! , which can be surprisingly cheap , even paint ! can be used )

Then do a bending moment diagram ( don’t worry tis easy and all on the the internet ! )

This will give u the shape of your swing arm

Stephen

or send the sketch

[husaberg]

OK He did some interesting things i guess Swiss attention to detail bordering on OCD.

A virtual Chocky fish for anyone who can pick up on the eerily similar statements from the last two lots of articles I have posted regarding.....

[chrisc]

I love this thread and am learning a lot. If anyone has a few articles regarding swingarm design plea se do post. Or if you could refer me to somewhere which does, I'm all ears

[crazy man]

I love this thread and am learning a lot. If anyone has a few articles regarding swingarm design plea se do post. Or if you could refer me to somewhere which does, I'm all earshave a look here http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/124128-Bucket-development-A-few-questions-for-the-wise-ones has a bit on a guy building one think its the sec to last post

[Bert]

have a look here http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/124128-Bucket-development-A-few-questions-for-the-wise-ones has a bit on a guy building one think its the sec to last post

Then followed up with:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/150352-Team-GPR?p=1130337596#post1130337596

[husaberg]

I love this thread and am learning a lot. If anyone has a few articles regarding swingarm design plea se do post. Or if you could refer me to somewhere which does, I'm all ears


I always enjoy this site for interesting stuff. The Guy (Julian Edgar Ex fast fours technical editor) is super clever and great at resourcing interesting bits.
http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Working-With-Tubular-Frames/A_111908/article.html
http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Zero-Cost-Modelling-of-SpaceFrames/A_111095/article.html
http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Building-an-Ultra-LightWeight-Car-Part-1/A_110989/article.html
http://www.autospeed.com.au/cms/A_111162/article.html

Ps what are you intending to build?

[chrisc]

Awesome, thanks guys, that'll keep me busy during my work breaks. I'm already following the Team GPR thread with high interest Bert! Hopefully there is a bit more tech talk about what and why.
The next project after my Datsun and the current low budget bucket build is to build a frame and swingarm to run otherwise factory components from something interesting. I'm really interested in the engineering side of motorcycles and get pretty obsessed sometimes with learning it, the hard part is applying it between long work hours. Thanks again guys!

[carburator]

Awesome, thanks guys, that'll keep me busy during my work breaks. I'm already following the Team GPR thread with high interest Bert! Hopefully there is a bit more tech talk about what and why.
The next project after my Datsun and the current low budget bucket build is to build a frame and swingarm to run otherwise factory components from something interesting. I'm really interested in the engineering side of motorcycles and get pretty obsessed sometimes with learning it, the hard part is applying it between long work hours. Thanks again guys!

The Automotive Chassis:
Engineering princples
J reimpell & H Stoll.

although its car/truck based the maths and princples remain the same, more for the swing arm.

[husaberg]

posted this elsewhere but it probably belongs here i guess it has a couple of neat tricks one with the one off method of doing a fuel tank for sealing the polystyrene with emulsion paint so you can fill it up to dissolve the polystyrene later and the other with the Plasticine and Hardboard.

it was written well before the black death was probably invented.
if you are going to plan on using the stuff either CF or FG use the proper PPE please also here is a few bits and bobs i have collected on trolls of the net as well.
Re CF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9x2PjozPus&feature=related
http://www.perthstreetbikes.com/forum/f16/laying-up-carbon-fibre-61248/
http://www.instructables.com/id/How-I-built-a-carbon-bike-frame-at-home-and-a-bam/step8/Finished-bike/
http://www.kr1s.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5573&sid=23385061feacab2e11b33aed5b7d6adc
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/carbon_fiber.htm
there was lots more but they have died it would seem but there is plenty of stuff on the net plus remember tire remouders/Retreaders have Autoclaves and making tires is thirsty work......
Buried on the net is how to make vacuum bags for the diy option if they are not in my current links.

I was going to do a spar frame with CF based around a Surf board core as it is easy to work plus free....
if you do do that make sure any inserts are anodized as electrolysis is an issue with CF.
Plus remember CF is an electrical conductor so if you have flash electronic it can talk through the frame.
I think actually one of the few patent's John Britten ever applied for was for his novel "Cats Cradle" method of working with carbon string but the string is far beyond my capabilities.but from memory he only ever used one roll of thread to build 3 bikes or something so it is relatively inexpensive esp as i think he blagged it. He was a smooth bugger able to talk people into doing stuff for him or giving him stuff.

The guy who wrote the article (before i was born no less) Was John Robinson the bearded tech editor sometime author from Performance Bikes.


As always with my attachments click on them a couple of times once they have loaded to get them suopersized until you see the - button with the magnifying glasses.

[Grumph]

On the ESE thread there's a paper posted by Brian damage on frame optimisation. After wading through it the only useful bit I've gained is from the graph of tube thickness vs weight...and the impression that Swiss mathematicians have a lot of time on their hands.

The relevant bit is that the use of tubes of a useful thickness -ie easily weldable - has a very small penalty in terms of the finished weight of the complete motorcycle. Experience tells me the resultant frame will be a lot more crashable too.

So no need to use 20G to achieve the last degree of ideal perfection. After all unless you are or can find a small light rider it's all wasted anyway.

Also on there is the pic of the Tulare 2T single. Thanks Husaberg. I like the adjustable swingarm pivot setup - pivot height has a marked
effect on handling. Just keep the chain adjustment separate please....

[husaberg]

On the ESE thread there's a paper posted by Brian damage on frame optimisation. After wading through it the only useful bit I've gained is from the graph of tube thickness vs weight...and the impression that Swiss mathematicians have a lot of time on their hands.

The relevant bit is that the use of tubes of a useful thickness -ie easily weldable - has a very small penalty in terms of the finished weight of the complete motorcycle. Experience tells me the resultant frame will be a lot more crashable too.

So no need to use 20G to achieve the last degree of ideal perfection. After all unless you are or can find a small light rider it's all wasted anyway.

Also on there is the pic of the Tulare 2T single. Thanks Husaberg. I like the adjustable swingarm pivot setup - pivot height has a marked
effect on handling. Just keep the chain adjustment separate please....

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/VARIABLE9/tulda.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/VARIABLE9/CR500roadracerTulDa2.jpg

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6581711-0-large.jpg

Turns out the guy was head of R7D for Renualt F1 at one time (and quite possibly is an actual rocket scientist):whistle:

http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/chassis-alignment-basics-3444.html

Unique Design Aspects Of Tul-aris Featured In Book About Motorcycle Design And Engineering

From an e-mail from Dr. Rob Tuluie:(not to me but off the net)

The Tul-aris is featured repeatedly in the brand new motorcycle engineering book "Motorcycle Handling and Chassis Design" by Tony Foale. The book is a comprehensive review and an assessment of the current state of motorcycle design and development, investigating many interesting aspects of motorcycle engineering with sound physical reasoning. Several times throughout the book the unique aspects of the Tul-aris are described, including a discussion of the ground-breaking work using laboratory vehicle dynamics testing as well as virtual dynamic simulations for the design and development of the Tul-aris. The book considers the Tul-aris project a trend setter for the future of motorcycle design and development. More information on the new book is available at www.tonyfoale.com


In addition, the Tul-aris design and development process was presented at the 2000 SAE Motorsports conference, which is attended by many industry-leading engineers in the car and motorcycle racing world. The accompanying SAE paper describing this work is SAE 2000-01-3576, available at http://www.sae.org/servlets/index

[husaberg]

Carbon tube
http://www.carbonfibretube.co.nz/images/two_round_tubes_close_up.jpg
well it can be done like an early style lugged frame i guess,
http://www.alpinedesignsbikes.com/storage/RBBrownWhiteBB.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1274 925287818http://images.mocpages.com/user_images/21315/1234823988m_SPLASH.jpg
http://www.teknikka.com/cache_image/430974b328adb699285600caab1a5039.jpg/959/pic.jpghttp://thekneeslider.com/images/arc1.jpghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HejnFtrO3AI/T0wWcr9KNhI/AAAAAAAAEF4/nThM_2nqWcU/s1600/TheTRXproject_TRX850_Ducati_DD16_RR_06.jpg



http://www.carbonfibretube.co.nz/index.php?pr=Carbon_Tube_Prices

[husaberg]

Most are Aprilia a few of the shy KTM thanks for the link Lozza.

[husaberg]

pt 2 from the site there is heaps more here http://l-mracing.smugmug.com/MOTOGP-125GP-250GP-1/WGP-125GP-250GP/WGP-125GP-250GP-2008/12105757_UB4M4#859096745_cnnnM
but you cant save the pictures oh well.
there is something elegant in every picture.

[husaberg]

Just a few more.

[richban]

pt 2 from the site there is heaps more here http://l-mracing.smugmug.com/MOTOGP-125GP-250GP-1/WGP-125GP-250GP/WGP-125GP-250GP-2008/12105757_UB4M4#859096745_cnnnM
but you cant save the pictures oh well.
there is something elegant in every picture.

Love this stuff. Very cool.

[Pumba]

Very very cool:drool:

[husaberg]

From the GP shots i guess the advert wasn't lying after-all.

[Brian d marge]

pt 2 from the site there is heaps more here http://l-mracing.smugmug.com/MOTOGP-125GP-250GP-1/WGP-125GP-250GP/WGP-125GP-250GP-2008/12105757_UB4M4#859096745_cnnnM
but you cant save the pictures oh well.
there is something elegant in every picture.

For me that is info overload , from the pics I can get sizes then find what ifs ,,,,I have a few , but that was info overload ...ta

Stephen

[husaberg]

The year is 1980
Thew material is CIBA Geigy M board which is a aluminum honey backed combed composite.
It predates both the Heron Suzuki commonly wrongly credited and the NZ Hiscock Suzuki which was earlier and the 250 Armstrong by at least 2 years.
So what is it? for the correct answer there could be a virtual chocky fish in it?No cheating though;)

[ac3_snow]

So what is it?

UGLY!

But kinda cool tho, I like the rivets, they are at my level of engineering (need a duct tape/cable tie smiley here)

[koba]

The year is 1980
Thew material is CIBA Geigy M board which is a aluminum honey backed combed composite.
It predates both the Heron Suzuki commonly wrongly credited and the NZ Hiscock Suzuki which was earlier and the 250 Armstrong by at least 2 years.
So what is it? for the correct answer there could be a virtual chocky fish in it?No cheating though;)

Not sure what it is but I just got that annoying feeling when you find someone has already tried some idea you had that you though was original and creative.
It's not quite what I was thinking but close.

[koba]

I like the rivets, they are at my level of engineering (need a duct tape/cable tie smiley here)

No they aren't, I'm yet to see an aircraft held together with duct-tape and cable ties!

[Bert]

The year is 1980
Thew material is CIBA Geigy M board which is a aluminum honey backed combed composite.
It predates both the Heron Suzuki commonly wrongly credited and the NZ Hiscock Suzuki which was earlier and the 250 Armstrong by at least 2 years.
So what is it? for the correct answer there could be a virtual chocky fish in it?No cheating though;)

Garnnie 50cc gp bike; spelling is going to let me down (don't want to open motocourse to find correct answer)

[husaberg]

Garnnie 50cc gp bike; spelling is going to let me down (don't want to open motocourse to find correct answer)

nope.......

[Grumph]

Looks like something Eric Offenstadt might have built....distinct French/Swiss connection with Fournales struts and Egli forks.

[Bert]

Garnnie 50cc gp bike; spelling is going to let me down (don't want to open motocourse to find correct answer)


nope.......

Should have seen the second spark plug lead.....

[husaberg]

OK the frame that everyone associates with the Bike and indeed the marque as it has become a trademark of the brand is this.
It seems they commissioned two frames in 1980. So as you see they want with what they knew and obviously the prettier version.

The shocks are Fox,but i agree with Grumph they look like Fournales . I also think the forks are Mazzochi?

Segale did the monocoque frame.
i thought the swingarm might be the giveaway. As i had seen this on other Segale's.
So ok it was a bit naughty of me as it seems it was never raced.
But the story (attached below) is worth a look.
http://www.classicducati.com/images/uploads/TT2_Rep_Race_Frame.jpghttp://jbt900.free.fr/ressources/pantah-tt2.jpg
http://www.pantah.eu/bilder_racing/segale/pantah_div_095.jpg
http://www.philaphoto.com/imageLibrary/albums/userpics/10001/PA-DucatiTT2proto-001.jpghttp://www.philaphoto.com/imageLibrary/albums/userpics/10001/PA-DucatiTT2proto-002.jpg
http://www.philaphoto.com/imageLibrary/thumbnails.php?album=1215

[husaberg]

Ok another sunday Monocoque
<center><img src="http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=267171&d=1343468093" width="640px" /><center>
This time much more prettier.:2thumbsup

Double or nothing a point each for the
Make of engine.......
The model of engine..
The cc.
The creator of the bike.
Hint it is a Suzuki twin:rolleyes:


No they aren't, I'm yet to see an aircraft held together with duct-tape and cable ties!

Have a look at the wiring harness.......

http://airpigz.com/storage/2011-october/Belite-All-Duct-Tape-MythBusters.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1319248 411777http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRiKobeczF3Dpt_z0Qtty1tAac7P_e1t L6u3pEOB2EuxOIiGLCejzsQJfrc3g

Mythbuster's have done two ok planes with ductap. One was not so great a flyer but it was a Macgyver design but the other one was ok:chase:

[richban]

K Question for the people that have done this before. Pivot drive shaft position. What I am doing. At 25 mm rider squat the axel centre swing-arm centre and drive shaft centre are in perfect alignment. Good to go? Or is there something else to consider?

TA

[Grumph]

That should work OK Rich - but won't you get tired squatting 25mm permanently ?

I assume (probably wrongly...) that you meant with 25mm of laden sag....For a small bike that's plenty IMO.

[richban]

double post opps

[richban]

That should work OK Rich - but won't you get tired squatting 25mm permanently ?

I assume (probably wrongly...) that you meant with 25mm of laden sag....For a small bike that's plenty IMO.

I have very strong thigh mussels. Yeh I meant rider sag Laden sag lard sag. Cheers. I think my FXR used to run around 22mm. Also measured the rake out of interest and it is sitting at 23 degrees after the wheel change. If I raise the back 10mm it will sit at 22.5. Will do a trail measurement when I have another pair of hands.

Out of interest what would you recommend for a small bikes Laden sag?

[Grumph]

I think you're pretty much in the ballpark but it depends on how much travel you've got to play with and how sophisticated your damping.
The more trick you get, the more you've got to keep tabs on and the more often you've got to change springs etc to suit different tracks. IMO for a bucket, a good base setting which will work on big and small tracks is desirable but until you've got it built and running you won't know if you're close.
I'm personally reluctant to use very "modern" trail figures on very small and light bikes. Dahn here they're on big tracks and a bit of high speed stability is quite nice...Even 100mm of trail and 26deg rake is quick steering on a very light bike.

[richban]

I think you're pretty much in the ballpark but it depends on how much travel you've got to play with and how sophisticated your damping.
The more trick you get, the more you've got to keep tabs on and the more often you've got to change springs etc to suit different tracks. IMO for a bucket, a good base setting which will work on big and small tracks is desirable but until you've got it built and running you won't know if you're close.
I'm personally reluctant to use very "modern" trail figures on very small and light bikes. Dahn here they're on big tracks and a bit of high speed stability is quite nice...Even 100mm of trail and 26deg rake is quick steering on a very light bike.

Yep the more buttons you have the more you push them. I am expecting the NSR to handle very similar to the FXR and that was good on long and short tracks. At speed it was a little slow to tip in but on the whole it was good. I am milling swing arm axel slots to give a lots of wheel base options as the NSR is a bit long. So quite happy with 23 degrees and 85mm at the front and about 60mm of movement in the rear for wheel base. Thats about as far as I will go till its going round a track. Also what you don't know won't hurt you. If its better than the FXR it will most likely get ridded till something breaks then made better.

[F5 Dave]

I try run 23 degs on the RS based stuff (actually I canted my YZFSP to 23.5 & my 500). Any more than that & you're entering sketchy ground.

[richban]

I try run 23 degs on the RS based stuff (actually I canted my YZFSP to 23.5 & my 500). Any more than that & you're entering sketchy ground.

Good to know. To measure the angle I used a free sprit level app for my phone. Simply calibrate it on a proper level and she is good to go. Gives you a sprit level bubble and a degree digital read out. Place phone on stanchion and look at phone. Perfect for a dyslexic chap like myself.

[F5 Dave]

heavens. -Bloody teenagers!

I just used a long piece of skinny shower rail with a hole in the bottom attached to a piece of ply with some hand scribed degree lines transferred from my large timing wheel. Has to be as long as the forks to get it spot on.

[richban]

heavens. -Bloody teenagers!

I just used a long piece of skinny shower rail with a hole in the bottom attached to a piece of ply with some hand scribed degree lines transferred from my large timing wheel. Has to be as long as the forks to get it spot on.

Also using it to get the engine angle correct. Sit on top of engine jack up till 26 degrees job done. Bloody love it.

[husaberg]

I have very strong thigh mussels. Yeh I meant rider sag Laden sag lard sag. Cheers. I think my FXR used to run around 22mm. Also measured the rake out of interest and it is sitting at 23 degrees after the wheel change. If I raise the back 10mm it will sit at 22.5. Will do a trail measurement when I have another pair of hands.

Out of interest what would you recommend for a small bikes Laden sag?

The trail can be calculated with your new Head angle and your old trail its in one of my posts on this thread and or on the ESE.
You can then put the formula into your Iphone if you must:eek5:

A bridge to far perhaps 18 deg and 75mm Frits was at 20 and 85mm ish wasn't it?
Sure it will turn sharp at those figures.so sharp it will probably make you bleed. LOL
But why not start out a little more conservative. 20-22 deg and 85-95mm.

The trail is also a result of the fork offset remember.
That why i mentioned the trailbike yoke to get the offset around to ballpark with the increase rake.

Have a look at the simple rake trail calculators on the Foale site.http://www.tonyfoale.com/ under freeware


And Gee no takers on the Monocoque Bike question come on Greg & Warwick.

[Grumph]

And Gee no takers on the Monocoque Bike question come on Greg & Warwick.

Don't recognise it, can't be arsed searching, too busy.....

[F5 Dave]

Oh yeah I was going to say when you're at that steep an angle they can verge on unstable depending on trail, front suspension quality & a bunch of other things. my 750 with new pistons cartridge work was a peach, one twitch in the rough & would forget it ever happened.

I saw DiPs RS fitted with steering dampers & laughed. That was at Taupo old cct & going down the hill/connection bit I got a bit off line & reconsidered (rapidly & many times). My 100 has a damper now, but don't need it at Kaitoke. Mt wgtn likely would.

[richban]

Amazing bike build. Just amazing what this guy does on the project. A shit load of billet ends up in the bin.

http://www.2t-special.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=498&start=20


267407267408267409

[husaberg]

Yes it is amazing

The mystery monocoque bike i posted last week was a 350 converted Suzuki Gt250 in a frame Terry Shepard 1976.

Adjustable offsets Yokes.

[husaberg]

Hey Scott.

Can you whip me up one of these swingarms
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=267627&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1344122112

PS the price added is obviously a typo it should be $69US so your budget is $100NZD;)

This one is the MUZ it was based on the tigercraft chassis it was glued in place with a Loctite product which if it sounds doggy consider tha's how the Eurofighter was made?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=267628&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1344122573

[Grumph]

I've got a pic somewhere of a Husqvarna works crosser which came unglued very publicly.
Titanium tube glued into machined junctions.

If you want a swingarm like that one - and why would you ? - better start work with your junior hacksaw and battery drill...

[Brian d marge]

I've got a pic somewhere of a Husqvarna works crosser which came unglued very publicly.
Titanium tube glued into machined junctions.

If you want a swingarm like that one - and why would you ? - better start work with your junior hacksaw and battery drill...

Dont buy a lotus elise then , if I remember it was Aluminum glued together

Like most things , there is a time and place for things , when things start to unfold , is when the material is used outside its design parameters.

Falure to understand the stresses or the medium , usually is the cause

Stephen

[crazy man]

Hey Scott.

Can you whip me up one of these swingarms
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=267627&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1344122112

PS the price added is obviously a typo it should be $69US so your budget is $100NZD;)

This one is the MUZ it was based on the tigercraft chassis it was glued in place with a Loctite product which if it sounds doggy consider tha's how the Eurofighter was made?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=267628&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1344122573lovey l have made some front forks like the brittion the same way . just need to finsh my f3 bike of to fit them to.

[husaberg]

lovey l have made some front forks like the brittion the same way . just need to finsh my f3 bike of to fit them to.

Some more stuff
In answer to Grumph have a look at the brake setup that's partly why, plus it is shinny.:drool:

Re the glue, Well if used properly it holds multi million dollar fighter aircraft together for 1000's of hours...........

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/asset.php?fid=244798&uid=28036&d=1344122085

[husaberg]

Sundays Monocoque

It's Seeley Really.............1974....

[Grumph]

Didn't the restorer of that one get Sheene to parade it a few years back....his comment apparently was to the effect that the restoration was very accurate - it handled like a bag of shit originally and still did....

[husaberg]

Didn't the restorer of that one get Sheene to parade it a few years back....his comment apparently was to the effect that the restoration was very accurate - it handled like a bag of shit originally and still did....

No idea but super ugly compared to last weeks Monocoque. (The Shepard)
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=267171&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1343468093http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/newattachment.php
Would you believe i have at least three other Suzuki monocoques to post. The Heron plus another 2 mystery monocoque's.
Were Suzuki frames that bad?

Unsprung weight....for it.....

[Grumph]

Were Suzuki frames that bad ? Well, yes the 500 std frame wasn't that good - although better std for std than a Mach 3...
The reason you see so many aftermarket frames for the 500 was availability of the motors. At the time they were cheap as chips compared to the real GP exotica.
Frames - Steve Roberts did the best but outside NZ you could't buy them so the euro frame builders had a field day. Mike Sinclair while at Tommys in ChCh did a batch of 3 race 500's in modified std frames. Wonder where they are now - collectors items.

[husaberg]

Yeah,er no i was meaning Suzuki's in general, the T500 was ubiquitous, fair call,
but a heck of a lot of other monocoques were Suzuki engined.
The old man had a T500 Titan long a bit wallowy. It had some funny long expansion chambers and huuge induction noise from open carbs.

[Grumph]

The very long chambers were typical Suzuki of the period. Peak power of the air cooled TR500 was at about 8500rpm and it want bang at anything over 9000...Even the TR750 was limited to a ceiling around 9200-9500.

[cotswold]

Yeah,er no i was meaning Suzuki's in general, the T500 was ubiquitous, fair call,
but a heck of a lot of other monocoques were Suzuki engined.
The old man had a T500 Titan long a bit wallowy. It had some funny long expansion chambers and huuge induction noise from open carbs.

I had one of those as my work bike and it was a fat lazy bugger, but I loved it

[husaberg]

The very long chambers were typical Suzuki of the period. Peak power of the air cooled TR500 was at about 8500rpm and it want bang at anything over 9000...Even the TR750 was limited to a ceiling around 9200-9500.



Yeah long for revs. the 8E Villiers was super long for the er....7500rpm peak.... but the ones on the Titan basically were all taper (homemade) but no mid section at all. no external silencers yet not that loud really. The induction was way louder.


I had one of those as my work bike and it was a fat lazy bugger, but I loved it

I remember them as being super torquey.
I think the gearchange was adaptable to either left or right in hindsight?

[husaberg]

Brakes mmmm...... Shinny old stuff old but still shinny.

[husaberg]

I should be posting this but what the hell.......
This is a bloody simple and clever set up. what with the cable ties as well its so bucket....
Sometimes when you look at stuff its like...... its so obvious why didn't i think of it.......

You in Dave....

Realistically if you use a Mountain bike lever as well as the Caliper you could delete the Slave.
For mine i am planing on using a KTM50sx..

I also have a pic of the ISR set up i will post later.

[Grumph]

That is rough enough to be a bucket...Please, if anyone does this, put the M/C on the frame rather than the forks and remember that all levers must be ball - end....

What do you need a thumb brake for Hus, gout playing up ?

[husaberg]

That is rough enough to be a bucket...Please, if anyone does this, put the M/C on the frame rather than the forks and remember that all levers must be ball - end....

What do you need a thumb brake for Hus, gout playing up ?

Nah.... from the Assen accident when i was leading the Championship. in 92.....
Limited leg movement......

[F5 Dave]

Ha! I was looking at a thumb rear brake in the weekend. He'd modified the foot master cylinder by putting a sleeve in the reservoir (integrated) else the window gets blown out:pinch:. (Retains foot brake, you feel pulsing through both). He had a Recluse auto clutch on his KTM, & going down snotty hills with legs flailing you need some rear brake. I've been fantasising about a rear brake for my GasGas just as I like to ride the brake a bit exiting greasy left handers as a variable traction control & it would be nice to do it on right handers & probably be more controllable that through MX boots.

But this setup has an AP MC which wouldn't be cheap & its reverse action to most with a pull??:crazy:

[Ocean1]

I've been fantasising about a rear brake for my GasGas just as I like to ride the brake a bit exiting greasy left handers as a variable traction control & it would be nice to do it on right handers & probably be more controllable that through MX boots.

I've got to like using the 525's decomp for that, a lot of the time it's just the right compromise between normal engine braking and a dab on the pedal.


But this setup has an AP MC which wouldn't be cheap & its reverse action to most with a pull??:crazy:

Aw, come on Dave you can figure out how to pull on a push MS, shirley.

[husaberg]

Ha! I was looking at a thumb rear brake in the weekend. He'd modified the foot master cylinder by putting a sleeve in the reservoir (integrated) else the window gets blown out:pinch:. (Retains foot brake, you feel pulsing through both). He had a Recluse auto clutch on his KTM, & going down snotty hills with legs flailing you need some rear brake. I've been fantasising about a rear brake for my GasGas just as I like to ride the brake a bit exiting greasy left handers as a variable traction control & it would be nice to do it on right handers & probably be more controllable that through MX boots.

But this setup has an AP MC which wouldn't be cheap & its reverse action to most with a pull??:crazy:


I've got to like using the 525's decomp for that, a lot of the time it's just the right compromise between normal engine braking and a dab on the pedal.

Aw, come on Dave you can figure out how to pull on a push MS, shirley.

Maybe its me. But i have always found the Brembo's rear brake on the Berg and KTM to be very fierce.

Have a look at kart cylinders Dave probably cheaper as well.

<img src="http://www.baileyracing.com.au/go_kart/ar4xfolder/P0000100.jpg" width="200px"/><img src="http://www.kartsandparts.ca/store/images/T/033-17.JPG" width="260px"/>
But the MC set up on a MTB would be far easier
<img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7232/7297846186_3fd49168c9_z.jpg" width="200px"/>
i always was going to use a Thumb throttle but i hadn't seen the real set up until i seen Doohans. as they always seemed to avoid pic of it. Shit i thought it was a Button.

[Ocean1]

Maybe its me but i have always found on the Berg and KTM the rear brake is fierce.

Me too. But after months and months of dedicated practice I thought I'd finally got the technique down so well I could actually achieve some useful rear brake without immediately locking it up altogether. Then I noticed the pads were down to steel.


But the MC set up on a MTB would be far easier

Is that a hydraulic item berg? Is bloody cute, would you rig it as a second caliper?

[husaberg]

Me too. But after months and months of dedicated practice I thought I'd finally got the technique down so well I could actually achieve some useful rear brake without immediately locking it up altogether. Then I noticed the pads were down to steel.



Is that a hydraulic item berg? Is bloody cute, would you rig it as a second caliper?

Yes hard to believe but yes.
(Someone already has the complete system) the name escapes me (Sketchyracer?)but he was the one who initiated the 12v caravan water pump on a bucket as well. I had an idea of using the MTB brakes about 2 years ago, but he actually Does stuff :)

I plan on using a formula Caliper of a KTM 50 just as cute
They have plastic pistons, no bleed nipples (bleed with a Syringe)
http://www.pentonpartsusa.com/images/2-%20wheels%20photos/461-13-080-000%20b%20rear%20brake.JPG
For reference to the size the bolt heads are 8mm.

(they Make MTB stuff as well.
I plan on only using one circuit.

[Bert]

I plan on using a formula Caliper of a KTM 50 just as cute
They have plastic pistons, no bleed nipples (bleed with a Syringe)
http://www.pentonpartsusa.com/images/2-%20wheels%20photos/461-13-080-000%20b%20rear%20brake.JPG
For reference to the size the bolt heads are 8mm.


Nice.

I've just found a CRF caliper; they are very light and small; as well.... sh!t another honda part on my yamaha....:brick:

[husaberg]

Nice.

I've just found a CRF caliper; they are very light and small; as well.... sh!t another honda part on my yamaha....:brick:

If i wasn't so lazy i would take a photo of it with something to represent the scale rather than sealing a pic of the net.

I am not sure you can have to many Honda bits:yes:

[F5 Dave]

Yeah Glen (Sketchy) was first to use a mtb brake as far as I'm aware. I bought a cable operated one & machined a disc & mounting for our pram. Just have to finish off the mount for the calliper, but that's where I've run into an issue. Too much plastic so the mount would be too long & vulnerable to bending when loaded into the Hatchy. Pity as its a brilliant idea, - 2 kids down steep hills in these parts to be able to drag the brakes would be gold.

Back to the Buckets, or rather tangenting off to my dirtbike; I want to be able to retain the std fittings as it will be piggybacked onto the original banjo fittings.

So really, why would they make a 'reverse' cable pulled m/c?

[Sketchy_Racer]

Yeah the MTB brakes work great as a rear brake, however will only last a lap before they over heat if you try and do skids into the turns...

My effort was really half arsed and it will be getting rebuilt soon to make it looks nicer and be lighter! I gotta shave a supercharger worth of weight off the bike haha

[F5 Dave]

Not to mention the cammy engine in the first instance.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Not to mention the cammy engine in the first instance.

It's lighter than the MB..... :shit:

[F5 Dave]

Must be all that Chinese goodness oozing out:confused:

[richban]

Yeah the MTB brakes work great as a rear brake, however will only last a lap before they over heat if you try and do skids into the turns...

My effort was really half arsed and it will be getting rebuilt soon to make it looks nicer and be lighter! I gotta shave a supercharger worth of weight off the bike haha

Yeah that worked well for sure. I still have 2 sets in the shed. I would trial the cable version. I will be almost as grunty and no tiny volume of fluid to cook. Will get around to doing one myself at some stage.

[husaberg]

It's lighter than the MB..... :shit:

So Glen What bore and stroke are you going to be running i have a Short stroke 95cc here 54mmX41.4mm
(the stud spacing is different than the bigger than 110 motors though, fixable) but it would end up with real low comp with a flat top with the large chamber head and the short stroke.

The KTM50 caliper set ups may actually be a better bet for any sort of durability as the MX 50 being Auto get a work out.
But if the lack of fluid is an issue it should be a problem to increase that.
Shit after the awesome supercharger effort, i am surprised you are not milling you own billet brakes.

[husaberg]

Ha! I was looking at a thumb rear brake in the weekend. He'd modified the foot master cylinder by putting a sleeve in the reservoir (integrated) else the window gets blown out:pinch:. (Retains foot brake, you feel pulsing through both). He had a Recluse auto clutch on his KTM, & going down snotty hills with legs flailing you need some rear brake. I've been fantasising about a rear brake for my GasGas just as I like to ride the brake a bit exiting greasy left handers as a variable traction control & it would be nice to do it on right handers & probably be more controllable that through MX boots.

But this setup has an AP MC which wouldn't be cheap & its reverse action to most with a pull??:crazy:
So the set up on the KTM the plastic blows out because the foot pedal presurises the thumb brake cylinder as well?
You also mentioned the reckluse yeah always wanted to give one a go.
I see somewhere they do a manual/auto combined one now. best of both worlds BBR do one for the KLX110 too i think. plus the crf110 has something different too supposedly (but still semi)



Back to the Buckets, or rather tangenting off to my dirtbike; I want to be able to retain the std fittings as it will be piggybacked onto the original banjo fittings.

So really, why would they make a 'reverse' cable pulled m/c?

Not sure... what you mean Dave?
Are you meaning the Kart cylinder?



I seen some combined front brake clutch control one lever someone was selling on TM
I am f'ed if i understand it and i checked and it wasn't even April tried to figure how it stil allowed slip guess it was a initial travel thing then after i posted this i got around to following the links....
http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/tq/17/223518817.jpg

The CLAKE is a combined clutch and rear brake actuator designed to free the riders right foot to afford them better control over their motorcycle or A.T.V. To many people the concept of combining these two controls appears strange but you must consider that both the clutch and the rear brake are actually controlling the same thing, rear wheel rotational speed


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CAb0iRzxSHo
Bloody clever :)
Patent pending I wonder how long it is before he is ripped off.....

[F5 Dave]

Interesting idea, but not what I want.

I want to be able to apply the brake whilst accelerating as a traction control. I already use the rear brake like this, but only on lefts of course & it isn't precise enough.

The rear brake foot reservoir glass blows out from pressure of the hand brake, so you put a sleeve in to 'remove' the reservoir.

[husaberg]

Interesting idea, but not what I want.

I want to be able to apply the brake whilst accelerating as a traction control. I already use the rear brake like this, but only on lefts of course & it isn't precise enough.

The rear brake foot reservoir glass blows out from pressure of the hand brake, so you put a sleeve in to 'remove' the reservoir.

Brake for traction control .....I guess we are back on the offroader?

It sure is an interesting idea, but as you say. the only problem is you can have initial movement clutch slip or initial clutch lever movement rear brake where as when brain and feet and hands are working you can have either/both.
Still if you add a rekcluse the manual anti stall version...mmmm....
I wonder if it something could be done with a push pull set up so the clucth lever could be set up for
Traditional pull in for clutch.
Push out with fingers for rear brake, That way one lever in correct position for both?
That way, it would free up my thumb for the airshifter:innocent:

[husaberg]

Sunday Monocoque.

If Mclaren were to build a motorbike chassis in the early 70's i guess it would look exactly like this.

Beause that 's what they did:msn-wink:

[cotswold]

Not the best quality photo but there are any number of chassis out there

The line up was Donington 1988....125 National....
Kris Galatowicz, Ian McConnachie, Steve Mason, Mark Carkeek, Michael McGarrity, Garry Dickinson, Paddy Corrigan, Chris Palmer, Andy Cooper, Rob Blow, Barrie Irons, Steve Clark, Dave Parman, Kevin Coghlan, Tim Coopey, John Cresswell, Martin Bartlett, Ken Donaldson, Morris McCarlie, Simon Westwood, Tony Flinton, Dean Hodgson, Pete Banks, Charlie Morgan, Les Judkins, Dave Moffitt, Dave Brown & Steve Patrickson.

[cotswold]

Evolution ....... Can't wait to see whats available in the next 100 years

[F5 Dave]

Petrol still hopefully. . .not that I'll care by then.

[husaberg]

Sunday Monocoque

OK might not be exactly a monocoque, but it is Sunday.
Note the tank is actually part of the frame.

[chrisc]

I know the MJ works build (http://www.facebook.com/MJworks.racing) has been posted in this thread already but here is another which I found through them: Aretz Racing (http://aretzracing.blogspot.be/). Unfortunately in dutch but nice pictures regardless

[chrisc]

I'm particularly unbusy at work at the moment, if anyone has any interesting articles on race bikes/chassis' I would be very keen for a read. :eek:

Cheers

[cotswold]

I'm particularly unbusy at work at the moment, if anyone has any interesting articles on race bikes/chassis' I would be very keen for a read. :eek:

Cheers

Check this guys work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=460ba6bM0gE

[koba]

Check this guys work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=460ba6bM0gE

Land of the ugly tailpiece.

[F5 Dave]

Oh my, I couldn't watch the rest. Those french know a thing or two about ugly cars & it spills over. The picnic table was just the start, then the ugly duckling duck tail tailpeice.:weird:

[cotswold]

Land of the ugly tailpiece.

Long lenses and no soap could also be added

[koba]

Long lenses and no soap could also be added

Long lenses?

[cotswold]

Long lenses?

Where you been? frog with a camera and Willies Princess.....

[koba]

Where you been? frog with a camera and Willies Princess.....

Right!
I don't really follow the news, I'd rather read the ESE thread than the paper.

I suspected it may be a general stereotype that wogs were all perverts.

It was a wog bike rather than a frog bike.

[husaberg]

RSW250 rear caliper and bracket is it wrong to want to take it to bed.

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/6734/dsc00977for.jpg

[husaberg]

http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/TempPicture/Mito_dim.gif
http://www.racingsm.org/FRIENDS/MITO/mito-15.jpg
<img src="http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSIcn5jexf9vOMronc4ioymB2Uaw4BOr 1eVb0WCeV_Zc-w8qkKuLA&t=1" width="940px"/>
http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss16/motorbikepaul/DSC02428.jpg
54.3 wheelbase
25 degrees castor
98mm trail.

Read this wow. This guy is an artist
http://www.2strokeworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=6802.0

[chrisc]

Anyone have any other interesting articles or discussion around monocoques?

Here's a few piovaticcis
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cP44li6uqjQ/T0ae-JtSArI/AAAAAAAAAwY/CvS3AbQ3Wrs/s1600/twins3.jpg

and the write up:
wide open moto (http://www.wideopenmoto.blogspot.co.nz/2012/02/piovaticci-grand-prix-racers.html?zx=c097e64de122d038#.UK30TOQ3u8A)

I really want to build a similar 125 in the future. Why is it that we don't see more monocoque frames around?

[husaberg]

Got a write up on the herron suzi somewhere.

Still Love this though.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UazjlEXFTmo/TDssZ4AJKeI/AAAAAAAAADs/AGR_ZEIANdc/s1600/125.jpg

[Moooools]

RSW250 rear caliper and bracket is it wrong to want to take it to bed.

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/6734/dsc00977for.jpg

Ha. We have 8 of those at the workshop. 4 are brand new. We may as well carry a spare set aye?

[husaberg]

<center>http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss16/motorbikepaul/IMG_0312.jpg
<center>http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss16/motorbikepaul/IMG_0452.jpg
<center>http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss16/motorbikepaul/IMG_0455.jpg
<center>http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss16/motorbikepaul/IMG_0478.jpg
<center>http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss16/motorbikepaul/IMG_0477.jpg
http://www.2strokeworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=6802.195

[husaberg]

Ha. We have 8 of those at the workshop. 4 are brand new. We may as well carry a spare set aye?

So do you take one home occasionally....like........When the misses is away.............:shifty:

[Grumph]

Anyone have any other interesting articles or discussion around monocoques?

I really want to build a similar 125 in the future. Why is it that we don't see more monocoque frames around?

Fucked if I know - if you have access to a folder and a pop rivet gun you can make one. Mocking up in folded cardboard should be a piece of piss too. Much easier and less toxic than working in carbon fiber too.

[Moooools]

Anyone have any other interesting articles or discussion around monocoques?


I really want to build a similar 125 in the future. Why is it that we don't see more monocoque frames around?

The structural value of a monocoque is mostly in the design freedom that they allow. There isn't much point in building a monocoque that is essentially a beam as a beam will be just as good and much cheaper. Also monocoques are designed to be loaded in plane (shear) so getting your head around the mounting the swingarm and head stock can be tricky.

I would attack it by starting with a Free body diagram and with load for maximum cornering load with a good safety factor. Then assuming you have no access to high end analytical software and CAD, start by designing a simple beam or tube monocoque with the core thickness and skin thickness you will need, and then make geometry changes from there while avoiding stress raisers such as sharp bends.

That is about as much as I know on the matter. The long and short is that it is pretty difficult to do it right.

[husaberg]

The structural value of a monocoque is mostly in the design freedom that they allow. There isn't much point in building a monocoque that is essentially a beam as a beam will be just as good and much cheaper. Also monocoques are designed to be loaded in plane (shear) so getting your head around the mounting the swingarm and head stock can be tricky.

I would attack it by starting with a Free body diagram and with load for maximum cornering load with a good safety factor. Then assuming you have no access to high end analytical software and CAD, start by designing a simple beam or tube monocoque with the core thickness and skin thickness you will need, and then make geometry changes from there while avoiding stress raisers such as sharp bends.

That is about as much as I know on the matter. The long and short is that it is pretty difficult to do it right.

Monoques went out of fashion for a couple of reasons.
hard to repair, ugly (generally unfashionable)
Plus the biggie they are f-ing hard to get out stuff like engines carbs etc.

If i was to do one it would be out of M board (if you can still get it) riveted like the Ducati a few pages back.


The year is 1980
Thew material is CIBA Geigy M board which is a aluminum honey backed combed composite.
It predates both the Heron Suzuki commonly wrongly credited and the NZ Hiscock Suzuki which was earlier and the 250 Armstrong by at least 2 years.
So what is it? for the correct answer there could be a virtual chocky fish in it?No cheating though;)
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=266850&d=1343126804
But this one is far prettier but f the work that would take......
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=271469&d=1350032076

[husaberg]

Norton JPS Monoque.
BTW it was Stainless steel not sure why?
Made quite a nice lampshade i understand for Croxford.
I think it was presented with the remains of one he had crashed with inscribed something along the lines of a month to build 3 seconds to destroy.

The access to the carbs is actually excellent... plugs and cylinder head maybe not so much.......
Peter Williams one of best ever development engineers.
It was later replaced by a space frame then for the cosworth twin .....Well a "no frame" as the engine was quite a lump
<img src="http://www.italian.sakura.ne.jp/bad_toys/norton/image/monocoque_17.jpg" width="380px"/><img src="http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x177/kcanaga/Factory%20Monocoque%20Norton%20F750%20Racer/001_24A.jpg" height="270px"/><img src="http://www.italian.sakura.ne.jp/bad_toys/norton/image/monocoque_01.jpg" height="250px"/>

<img src="http://i65.servimg.com/u/f65/13/15/94/65/pop-2810.jpg" width="310px"/><img src="http://i65.servimg.com/u/f65/13/15/94/65/pop-8610.jpg" width="400px"/><img src="http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/autopia/images/2009/03/13/ev0rr_04_2.jpg" width="420px"/>


<img src="http://www.jamiewaters.com/images/410_08_monocoque_rear_W.jpg" width="380px"/><img src="http://www.italian.sakura.ne.jp/bad_toys/norton/image/monocoque_add_01.jpg" width="380px"/><img src="http://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/15/92/36/87/img_7414.jpg" width="360px"/>
Most of the pics are from here http://www.italian.sakura.ne.jp/bad_toys/norton/it shows the space frame and the cosworth in various guises including the BOTT quantel
<img src="http://www.italian.sakura.ne.jp/bad_toys/norton/image/spaceframe_04.jpg" width="340px"/><img src="http://www.italian.sakura.ne.jp/bad_toys/norton/image/cosworth2_02.jpg" height="260px"/><img src="http://www.italian.sakura.ne.jp/bad_toys/norton/image/quantel_cosworth_02.jpg" height="250px"/>

[husaberg]

Haven't found the Herron write up.......yet
But i did come across this today there must have been more then one model?
Because i remember it as a square 4 ????????????
i seem to recall it was made of M board as well


<img src="http://www.racing-motorcycles.co.uk/img/dynamic/photo_1298.jpg" width="1080px"/>
<img src="http://www.racing-motorcycles.co.uk/img/dynamic/photo_1297.jpg" width=1080px"/>
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=275378&d=1356864911
1987 Suzuki XR72 V4 Ceiby Geiga this Superb Carbon Fibre Chassis V4 500cc the very first year Suzuki made a V4, this machine was designed for Kevin Swantz and Rob Mac. Sold (http://www.racing-motorcycles.co.uk/specials.php)
1987 Ceiby Geiga Suzuki RGV500 What a great Machine one of the best I have found this bike made from F1 technology, using honeycomb section carbon fibre, a real development in 1987, incredibly light, never to be repeated,......................

[husaberg]

arhh this is the one i remember
http://raresportbikesforsale.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/herron-suzuki.jpghttp://classic-motorbikes.net/images/gallery/13829.jpg

<img src="http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1239/696885215_49dcb39bd6_z.jpg?zz=1" height="530px"/><img src="http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1078/697708910_99e352dc9a.jpg" height="530px"/>
<img src="http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1067/697708740_637ca4b371_o.jpg" height="415px"/><img src="http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1284/696885269_e7cabafb58_o.jpg" height="415px"/>
<img src="http://www.rgb500.com/images/xr70_2.gif" height="370px"/><img src="http://www.rgb500.com/images/xr70_3.gif" height="370px"/>
<img src="http://www.rgb500.com/images/xr70_4.gif" height="370px"/><img src=" http://www.rgb500.com/images/xr70_6.gif" height="370px"/>
<img src="http://www.rgb500.com/images/xr70_5.gif" height="740px"/>
http://www.rgb500.com/gallery1_9.htm

Note# the strap on the radiator

[husaberg]

For Warwick
http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1304/697373741_65ed9f2d56_o.jpghttp://farm2.staticflickr.com/1069/697373703_18f6d92a3e_o.jpg

[husaberg]

There is a Kawaka snuck in as well.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=275374&d=1356861274
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=275373&d=1356861104
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=275375&d=1356862007

[Bert]

http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceout.gif

While the carbon frame is a work of art
This tickled my fancy
http://www.flickr.com/photos/teamheronsuzuki/3288646894/in/set-72157613992793835/

[husaberg]

While the carbon frame is a work of art
This tickled my fancy
http://www.flickr.com/photos/teamheronsuzuki/3288646894/in/set-72157613992793835/

Love the engine
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3540/3288647076_b682cd1584_o.jpg
still like the black death frame better though.:yes:
RGTZ (18) RGTZ 500 with Bartol cylinders and homemade frame by Claus Hörhammer
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3592/3287831829_8cd97b99fc_o.jpghttp://farm4.staticflickr.com/3161/3287831633_634736d5c7_o.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8223/8254768114_586597bff3_o.jpghttp://farm9.staticflickr.com/8059/8253694915_4588298e01_o.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8065/8253694617_565fa390f6_o.jpghttp://farm9.staticflickr.com/8491/8253694575_3017334370_o.jpg

[husaberg]

Nice wee take on the home built twin spar aluminium.....very Honda RS125
http://www.eberhardtgp80.com/images/ebe_23_m.jpghttp://www.eberhardtgp80.com/images/ebe_27_m.jpghttp://www.eberhardtgp80.com/images/ebe_22_m.jpg
http://www.eberhardtgp80.com/bikes.php

[husaberg]

Egli drawing Yes it is a chopper Dave.:yes:

[cotswold]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ojeq3iu4HrY#at=247

[husaberg]

Race Chassis for the Euro Debri etc.
<img src="http://www.wahoo.de/images/product_images/popup_images/478_0.jpg" height="540px"/>


Who is looking (http://www.wahoo.de/product_info.php?info=p478_Rahmen-Conti-RX356-V4.html&XTCsid=16673e839867e1e2264b136215073c52) for a lightweight frame for racing area, should strike here. Conti provides the framework of the known RX356 Conti V4 now also individually. CNC-machined triple clamps and mounting plates on the sides, tubular frame and a fully adjustable shock absorber brand Gubellini speak for themselves. Easier and better for the price it's unlikely! The motor mount is suitable for Derbi engines

Kind of reminds me of Segales frame kits.

[Neal]

How do i contact Crazyman ? Pm's don't go through .

Thanks

[husaberg]

How do i contact Crazyman ? Pm's don't go through .

Thanks

Try Bert (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php/3465-Bert) here or Masterblaster (http://www.fxr150.co.nz/forum/member.php?1602-masterblaster)(Scott) on FXR150 site.
or any of the Links here.
The thread for Team GPR (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/150352-Team-GPR)

GPR (http://www.gprnz.com/Home.html) are so flash they even also have their own .com web site.

[cotswold]

I like the look of this bike and the rider is hopefully putting me in touch with the builder. I am very keen to build one much like this for my 50

[Rick 52]

I like the look of this bike and the rider is hopefully putting me in touch with the builder. I am very keen to build one much like this for my 50
That looks like Darley Moore, is he local to Ashbourne UK ?

[husaberg]

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7669/x9yi9.jpg

interesting........

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2191/micheldumainejawagimokk5.jpg

[mr bucketracer]

stop posting to much good stuff

[cotswold]

That looks like Darley Moore, is he local to Ashbourne UK ?

I am not sure but some of the photo's had TONFANAU Sun 25th Aug 2013 which is one I have not heard of , it's in wales.
The rider is from Sutton on the Forest which is up your way I believe,r but lives in Shrewsbury.

[F5 Dave]

Wow the one against the bus; one word >Meccano!

The closer one has a tank that reminds me of the Hub bike Wheels built & now own by MB.

[cotswold]

[QUOTE=F5 Dave;1130606312]Wow the one against the bus; one word >Meccano!

at least it does not say HONDA RACING CORPORATION :nono:

[husaberg]

Some old Yamaha Frame or what not.

<img src="http://raresportbikesforsale.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/frame-1.jpg" height="420px"/><img src="http://raresportbikesforsale.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/frame-2.jpg" height="420px"/>
1995
<img src="http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6118/6995145083_4cec64175a.jpg" height="610px"/><img src="http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6118/6849022902_dd783cf3ba.jpg" height="610px"/>
2002

[husaberg]

I am not sure but some of the photo's had TONFANAU Sun 25th Aug 2013 which is one I have not heard of , it's in wales.
The rider is from Sutton on the Forest which is up your way I believe,r but lives in Shrewsbury.

I never noticed how similar it was to this.
<img src="http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=253307&d=1324623464" height="340px"/>

[Grumph]

Plate frames can be very good for small bikes. Like a monocoque, a mockup can be done in cardboard.

[F5 Dave]

Then paint with Balsa Dope?

[Grumph]

Then paint with Balsa Dope?

Whatever you like...But knowing your liking for composite cylinders, I'd have thought layering it with devcon and old pantyhose was more your style.

regardless, there is something to be said for the plate frames - and it is.....you don't have to weld anything !!

[cotswold]

I never noticed how similar it was to this.
<img src="http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=253307&d=1324623464" height="340px"/>

You are not wrong, the Scitsu was a bit of a porker but i reckon it would be easy enough to slim it down to suit a 50.

[cotswold]

http://www.kreidler.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18997

[F5 Dave]

Yeah they made some spelling mistakes.

[husaberg]

I think they have been on the Heineken here too
http://www.kreidler.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=42541

[husaberg]

the word is butch. re the steering head.

[husaberg]

update Kim rep.
http://s375.photobucket.com/user/kitkatjeff/library/konig?sort=3&page=1

[F5 Dave]

Eccentric chain adjusters? :oi-grr:

[husaberg]

Nice RSW125 pic low init.

[Ocean1]

the word is butch. re the steering head.

Which came first, the Butch or the Buell?

[Ocean1]

Eccentric chain adjusters? :oi-grr:

If you put an eccentric inside an eccentric you can put the axle wherever you want.

Or you could just arsehole the chain altogether. :whistle:

[F5 Dave]

How big do you have to make it? & clamp it. But my point was more it doesn't seem authentic as a replica, unless I'm wrong.

[husaberg]

Which came first, the Butch or the Buell?

if you are meaning the Rotax double uglyBuell (you have one i guess) the Aprilia chassis have been like that since about 92. Carpental Alloy (aircraft Froggy i think)

[Ocean1]

How big do you have to make it? & clamp it. But my point was more it doesn't seem authentic as a replica, unless I'm wrong.

Don't have to be that big, but big is good up to a point, there's less load at a greater radius from the axle centreline. What's it a replica of? Go back far enough and a flat belt would be right.

[Ocean1]

if you are meaning the Rotax double uglyBuell (you have one i guess) the Aprilia chassis have been like that since about 92. Carpental Alloy (aircraft Froggy i think)

No, sold the 1125. Which I might say was an excellent machine, (stunning engine) and from a purely engineering perspective they're as pretty as their performance makes 'em.

All of the XB Buells had similar frames, the headstock rigidity is one of the first things you notice. I think the general concept is good for most engines, especially for track use, although some may be better with full or partial spaceframes.

[husaberg]

No, sold the 1125. Which I might say was an excellent machine, (stunning engine) and from a purely engineering perspective they're as pretty as their performance makes 'em.

All of the XB Buells had similar frames, the headstock rigidity is one of the first things you notice. I think the general concept is good for most engines, especially for track use, although some may be better with full or partial spaceframes.

I was half kidding i must say they do look better in the flesh than in the pictures.
Dave the front brake is wrong to.
the Rickmam frame i have has an eccentric swingarm pivot it works like the snail cams on a 80's XR honda.
I like them.

[Grumph]

I was half kidding i must say they do look better in the flash than in the pictures.
Dave the front brake is wrong to.
the Rickmam frame i have has an eccentric swingarm pivot it works like the snail cams on a 80's XR honda.
I like them.

Chain tensioning via an adjustable pivot is good if done right - and by that i mean the pivot point must move in a straight line. I dont like the type which rotates the pivot as it varies the pivot height too. No point in going to a lot of trouble sorting out height then moving it round regardless...

AFAIK the first was done by Colin Lyster then the Rickmans picked it up followed by Ducati et al. Colin's version was as usual for him very simple, not to say a tad agricultural...square plates with an offset hole.

[husaberg]

Chain tensioning via an adjustable pivot is good if done right - and by that i mean the pivot point must move in a straight line. I dont like the type which rotates the pivot as it varies the pivot height too. No point in going to a lot of trouble sorting out height then moving it round regardless...

AFAIK the first was done by Colin Lyster then the Rickmans picked it up followed by Ducati et al. Colin's version was as usual for him very simple, not to say a tad agricultural...square plates with an offset hole.

Looks like Rickman used a couple of methods (just noticed someone has made the Zundapp reed)

[cotswold]

This one looks very Waddon esque

[F5 Dave]

Hey, its got Tuff TM wheels like my mates Panther BMX!

(After I broke the originals for him doing a jump that was never going to work).

[husaberg]

http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/65/38/egli_210.jpg
Spline come space, Egli or Egli inspired. The pic code says Egli

[Grumph]

Mm, forks are Egli - but messy, very messy...why have the spine at all, it's not adding a lot to the frame layout...

[husaberg]

Mm, forks are Egli - but messy, very messy...why have the spine at all, it's not adding a lot to the frame layout...

I would say an oil tank but its a smoker...........
I guess he felt obliged too if it was Fritz.
Swingarm is Def Egli like as well
http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/65/38/egli_210.jpg

[husaberg]

.............
The frame is made of Titanium, the cowling is Carbon. Weight is less then 50kg.
And we are still discussing, if we really need a minimum weight..

The "good" thing with Simson engines is, that there are no tuning parts like to Derbi oder Metrakit available - so we are forced to produce them on our own. It's not realy cheap, but there is a big effect with learning by doing. But if it is working like it should, then we don't need to hide with them.
The 50cc-engines reach above 20 PS, also the aero-cooled engines with Simson-cylindre have 13PS and more.

[husaberg]

Euro..........

[husaberg]

.....................

[Grumph]

.............

dammit, can't pull one pic out as a quote...

The red tube frame is a GPR with bigger - and straighter - tubes. i reckon it'd take a 250 single...

Love the stand too - very similar to the japanese Moto 3 home scene where even the pit stands are works of art in alloy or Ti.

[Bert]

dammit, can't pull one pic out as a quote...

The red tube frame is a GPR with bigger - and straighter - tubes. i reckon it'd take a 250 single...

Love the stand too - very similar to the japanese Moto 3 home scene where even the pit stands are works of art in alloy or Ti.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=289572&d=1383986437

I reckon it would take a 500 single....

looking at the bits on it; 1996/97 TZ125 4jt was used.....

[husaberg]

I have posted some pics before but these are better. JPN space frame
http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/14/84/44/70/peter_15.jpg
http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/14/84/44/70/peter_16.jpg

[husaberg]

JPN monocoque...

[seymour14]

I have posted some pics before but these are better. JPN space frame


Yeah, Norton certainly got its act together, mind you, check out the old man and myself....

[husaberg]

Yeah, Norton certainly got its act together, mind you, check out the old man and myself....

Love the Bo-font..... Never understood why Nortons had such ugly tanks as std, BSA and Triumph could get it right. So could Norton with the Manx. But for the road bikes.
I would love an 750 Atlas, or a Triton maybe not to live with though.

[seymour14]

Love the Bo-font..... Never understood why Nortons had such ugly tanks as std, BSA and Triumph could get it right. So could Norton with the Manx. But for the road bikes.
I would love an 750 Atlas, or a Triton maybe not to live with though.

I think the old man had a 650ss or dominator 88, can't remember, has a Dominator 7, ES2, and a couple of those "mental as anything" Norton Navigators.

Nortons were a way of life. Just like you either were an Indian or a Harley man.

[cotswold]

Sorry a bit small, but thought this deserved a mention

[husaberg]

Sorry a bit small, but thought this deserved a mention


Motor was cool i like the version the same guys did on the Norton Cozzy Quantall i think it was called i think i posted both somewhere.
http://www.italian.sakura.ne.jp/bad_toys/norton/image/quantel_cosworth_02.jpg

[mr bucketracer]

Sorry a bit small, but thought this deserved a mentionthanks cool , wonder what it went like having no frame

[cotswold]

thanks cool , wonder what it went like having no frame

It went pretty well, Exactweld, they go back to the 80's , Gary Noel won the European Championship in 1984 on one

[mr bucketracer]

good old bum centre lol , i like that bike , now i need to make one

[husaberg]

Yes i did a horror meeting my worst ever.
Magneto shit it self maybe a little to much material removed or because.the bearing was on the way out.
Someone lent me a stator and rotor.
Rode it for a bit but it was hammering it (the borrowed bits). I don't know who lent it to me either but thanks whoever it was.
Mag side main had let go.
These maladies were i believe related.
I had left a lot of bits on the coast.
The old man did the 600km trip to bring them over.
Mike the "greenman" i believe won so he keeps er... reminding us

Below the Quantel Norton

I believe it may have won A BOT Daytona event later on or was second.
Norton had a big problem with the engine it turned out as well as costing them huge money it had so little flywheels it would allegedly lock the rear wheel on overrun and had a water pump that was supposed to be impossible to bleed without burning or scolding the mechanic

I am sure some pics of the bikes or engines have been added before a British attempt at a prepackaged Rotax tandem twin TZ beater from the 80's made in both 250 and 350cc.

Lozza will be well aware of this When i was looking for pics his name pops up quite a few times.
One thing i have not picked up on is they had mirrored disks on at least one of the bikes.

but was it mainly for a better transfer layout with more symmetry as well?
Possible advantages with the twin disk i can see include a symmetrical flow and the inlets would be smaller so less obtrusive to the transfers.
It should also possibly offer better drive-ability( it does of course fail the KISS test though.)


It went pretty well, Exactweld, they go back to the 80's , Gary Noel won the European Championship in 1984 on one

Here is the Story of the Quantel Norton and some more Exact weld pics follow the arrow after the husaberg for the articles.

[chrisc]

http://www.kreidler.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=40637&hilit=kart+cilinder&start=275

[husaberg]

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.livedoor.jp%2Fmoto_x%2F%3Fp%3D 2

Have a good look through here a group of artists at work.

pic below an RS125 NF4 with a linkage suspension conversion.plus a nice NX4

[F5 Dave]

Wow that's quite a lot of work. Not much width to do much else.

[husaberg]

Wow that's quite a lot of work. Not much width to do much else.

This was on EBay today.
Starting 1000 usd. funny enough they also had a set of WP USD forks starting at 1000USD

[F5 Dave]

That's never made it out of the laundry. The bolts are plain bolts but he looks & the milled lines on the linkage don't have blow-back in-grained in them. I doubt you can get a carb out of the gap hence the removable subsection, but that would be a bit of a wind-up as you're pulling in two different plains to get it out. Might work ok in practice.

Just goes to show how little space there is in there. If the thin part of the shock meant you could slide the carb out I'd have to rescind my comments, but that is critical, you can't be removing the shock bolt and propping the bike up every time you want to do jet change. Looks like a big gap, but its hard enough with the std setup.

[jasonu]

That's never made it out of the laundry. The bolts are plain bolts but he looks & the milled lines on the linkage don't have blow-back in-grained in them. I doubt you can get a carb out of the gap hence the removable subsection, but that would be a bit of a wind-up as you're pulling in two different plains to get it out. Might work ok in practice.

Just goes to show how little space there is in there. If the thin part of the shock meant you could slide the carb out I'd have to rescind my comments, but that is critical, you can't be removing the shock bolt and propping the bike up every time you want to do jet change. Looks like a big gap, but its hard enough with the std setup.

A watercooled KE100 might fit.

[F5 Dave]

Now there you may have a good point. Still you'd have to trust matey designed the linkage with some Foale or Bradley formula as that stuff gets funky real quick.

[husaberg]

An alchemy style linkage would work. I was thinking that the other day looking at a old pic of Phil Payne's bike.
this is obviously not it.Not so sure it wouldn't get in the way of the rider though.

[F5 Dave]

Yeah I'd kinda thought about Alchemy (ex pat, can't remember the name) but they use engine as a stressed where that shock pretty much needs (apart from its fairly unique length) to be where the frame spare or the tank is now. Non starter really despite being kinda cool.

[husaberg]

Yeah I'd kinda thought about Alchemy (ex pat, can't remember the name) but they use engine as a stressed where that shock pretty much needs (apart from its fairly unique length) to be where the frame spare or the tank is now. Non starter really despite being kinda cool.

The Ex pat was brook Henry, i can't remember who did the linkage but he was at uni at the time, (aiken?) and was a Kiwi to Ken Mcintosh but them onto him.
The way i look at it the Supermono had the same set up as the NF4 and nobody seemed to complain about it.
It just irks me how much it is in the way.

[Grumph]

Husa - google Spondon RS125 for another variation. Quite clever and maybe applicable to an early RS.

i can find them but can't post them.....

[F5 Dave]

oh yeah looks pretty similar, but I'd guarantee those frame spares are wider than NF4. RS had carb offset a bit to side anyway.

Meh build it & ride it.

[husaberg]

Husa - google Spondon RS125 for another variation. Quite clever and maybe applicable to an early RS.

i can find them but can't post them.....

this one....

[husaberg]

http://www.crazymoto.net/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=99679
http://www.crazymoto.net/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=65351
http://www.crazymoto.net/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=65348
http://www.crazymoto.net/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=66666
http://www.crazymoto.net/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=66686
http://www.2-takt.net/000angol/20bikes/02racing/500/honda/pics/Honda%20NSR%20500%20V2%202001%20Barry%20Veneman.jp g

[husaberg]

Few people would seen or heard of this i had just seen the odd reference.
I could have posted this in ESE or the chassis thread (might anyway).
Tell you the truth i wouldn't mind building a replica anyone got a Crescent 500 3 engine (lying about, they want to give away like:rolleyes:)
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291511&d=1388173907
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291512&d=1388173965
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291513&d=1388173965
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291514&d=1388177354
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291509&d=1388173829
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291510&d=1388173907
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291508&d=1388173829
This last pic i think is another version maybe?
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291515&d=1388177354

[husaberg]

engine pics that didn't fit.....

[cotswold]

Can any one tell me why would the pipe be made like this, also just spotted the foam covering in the carb area?

[Grumph]

Gotta be some sort of local noise restriction. The foam would be a quasi air box but if it is foam it would damp intake noise too...

Husa - there was only ever one Monark/Crescent built. I don't know if you're referring to the b&w pic of him with Dane Rowe, that's the same bike. can't open any more pics....Ah, now they open....same bike, minus bodywork at an early stage of construction. Cat sidecar in background - also crescent powered.

He would have fitted in with the bucket foundry guys....often found machining in the middle of the night having had an idea....

[husaberg]

Gotta be some sort of local noise restriction. The foam would be a quasi air box but if it is foam it would damp intake noise too...

Husa - there was only ever one Monark/Crescent built. I don't know if you're referring to the b&w pic of him with Dane Rowe, that's the same bike. can't open any more pics....Ah, now they open....same bike, minus bodywork at an early stage of construction. Cat sidecar in background - also crescent powered.

He would have fitted in with the bucket foundry guys....often found machining in the middle of the night having had an idea....

The different wheels threw me.....

[Grumph]

The different wheels threw me.....

Found a letter in a Classic Racer which Dane Rowe wrote in answer to the article you posted.

The pic with 3 spoke wheels is actually the final version - 3 spoke came later.

The 3 cylinder TZ/TR they finished up with in the chair was built by them.

[husaberg]

Found a letter in a Classic Racer which Dane Rowe wrote in answer to the article you posted.

The pic with 3 spoke wheels is actually the final version - 3 spoke came later.

The 3 cylinder TZ/TR they finished up with in the chair was built by them.

Can you scan it or take a photo and email it to me?

[husaberg]

Dane Rowe
http://i43.servimg.com/u/f43/17/03/71/33/bubu_l10.jpg

Sidecar
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3156/2966770061_961ae24826.jpg

Catvan
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3426/3382051649_f91646d1d8.jpg


Dane... nice, swinger i asume (hope)
hey the sidecar pic, interesting a stroker with chambers but rather than finishing with a stinger its more a 4T megaphone, how that work, not to well i asume?


291578

3 cylinder TZ ???


291585

Music had Blondie, racing had Dane Rowe .... a serious side car swinger from the 70's and something of a Hottie.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/teamheronsuzuki/sets/72157608302512322



Found a letter in a Classic Racer which Dane Rowe wrote in answer to the article you posted.

The pic with 3 spoke wheels is actually the final version - 3 spoke came later.

The 3 cylinder TZ/TR they finished up with in the chair was built by them.
there is a bit of cross over i the threads lol

Shes funny too.... Just how old would she be now i wonder..........

[Kickaha]

there is a bit of cross over i the threads lol

Shes funny too.... Just how old would she be now i wonder..........

She was racing in the mid to late sixties onwards so probably born 1950 ish

[speedpro]

Easy to find pics on the web. Looks like hyvo chain on the chair in one and another has a lay down sort of engine with 3 pumper carbs on it. He would have been an interesting guy to have a few beers with in his garage for sure. If him and Neil got together that'd make for some interesting machines.

[husaberg]

Your right Mikehttp://www.yamaha-classic-racingteam.nl/site2/index.php?page=500cc_ysk53

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/109582-rudi-kurth-the-cats-and-other-yamaha-triples/

http://2stroker.createforumhosting.com/rudi-kurth-500-3-t4921.html
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/2686/kurtroweds.jpg

[TZ350]

Shes funny too.... Just how old would she be now i wonder..........

Mid 60's is my guess.

291634

And still someone I would like to share a bottle of wine (or two) and a sunny afternoon with.

[BMWST?]

clever bastards

[husaberg]

I think it was Greg that said Rudi was doing bikes now...
http://www.catbikes.ch/

http://www.catbikes.ch/pdf/rudis_cat_developments.pdf

...........
Yendor, on Dec 12 2006, 14:07, said: Hi Phillipe and thank you for the welcome. I did work with Rudi for a while and whilst with him I had the opportunity to ride the solo at the French GP at Paul Ricard. It used the same engine as the outfit but suffered cooling problems due to the somewhat limited space for a radiator compared with the sidecar version. This lead to several exiting moments on the Mistral Straight when the cooling system reached bursting point and relieved itself through the radiator cap straight up under the screen and back into my face, the resulting steam cloud rendering me temporarely blind whilst flat out :rotfl: The wheels were six spoke Offenstadts with three spokes removed :eek: Due to its light weight and extremely low build the handling was superb, but the brakes, which I believe were Dunstall, were hopeless. The rear suspension was catilever using a modified Citroen car unit much the same as the three wheeler. The workmanship, as with all Rudis project was superb. With further developement I think it would have been quite successful. Unfortunately the pressure of Rudis GP campaign and the fact that I left prematurely to join Kawasaki meant the end to my involvement.

Mid 60's is my guess.

291634

And still someone I would like to share a bottle of wine (or two) and a sunny afternoon with.
http://www.catbikes.ch/starte.htm

go to the Kurths section

[TZ350]

Here is a post of Danes, (March 09) that I found on another site. http://forums.autosport.com/topic/106774-dane-rowe-fan-club/page-2

291639

At one Finnish GP Siggi Schauzu used the long straight road between the circuit (which was actually closed-off public roads) and the Russian border as a test road for his sidecar outfit. The road was about 5 miles long and as straight as a die. Well, the Russians saw this silver bullet-like affair hurtling down the road towards them at the first of the border posts and actually shot at him... He came back to the paddock very shaken and showing us the scars on his fairing where the bullets had hit at an angle.

A funnier thing I remember about the GP in Finland are the "burning bogs". The toilets in the paddock were simply two 3ftx3ft wooden boxes (no doors, so I got a local spectator whom we knew from previous years to bring a couple of old sheets and nails and I made "doors" out of them) and a hole in the ground. Of course having over 150 riders plus their mechanics and other team members use them.. well the holes got filled up pretty quickly so you had to be careful where you stood. The floor was covered with crumpled up newspapers as "protection". Well, on the Sunday, after the race, Barry Sheene came round asking for petrol donations, just a few drops per team. 30 minutes later the loos were up in flames.

When the police (who were there all the time for some reason) made inquiries, we were all standing around and another of the most famous riders said, po-faced: "Well, I saw one of the police go in to the toilet smoking a cigarette. When he came out he didn't have the cigarette any more and the loos were suddenly in flames. Perhaps he dropped it on the newspapers on the floor...." I remember the policeman, the only one who spoke English, looking at him and waving his finger at him to and fro, saying "nooo, nooo, nooo"...
I actually have a newspaper cutting in my album, with a pic of the loos on fire, which our friend the spectator mentioned above sent me, together with a translation.

Must get back to my numismatics - I am currently translating a book on a certain type of ancient coinage, plus doing the last 100 coin identifications for a "coin ID customer" then adding more coins to wildwinds.com

So bye for the moment !
Dane

[husaberg]

Here is a post of Danes, (March 09) that I found on another site.

A funnier thing I remember about the GP in Finland are the "burning bogs". Barry Sheene came round asking for petrol donations, just a few drops per team. 30 minutes later the loos were up in flames.


So bye for the moment !
Dane
I have an idea it was Sheene who did the same in England as well.......
Bloody cheeky horny and a Pyro as well....

[Kickaha]

Your right Mike

That's the earlier Crescent triple sidecar and the Citroen it's on top off is what the Catvan was built around
http://www.yamahaclassictwostrokes.nl/tripples-zelf/rudi-kurth-500cc-3-cylinder-sidecar/

[husaberg]

purty.
http://digilander.libero.it/Crislyfe/Smontaggio%20250%20GP/Telaio%20250%20GP%20(2).jpghttp://digilander.libero.it/Crislyfe/Smontaggio%20250%20GP/Rimontaggio%20GP%20(5).jpg
http://digilander.libero.it/Crislyfe/Smontaggio%20250%20GP/Rimontaggio%20GP%20(4).jpghttp://digilander.libero.it/Crislyfe/Smontaggio%20250%20GP/Quasi%20finita%20(9).jpghttp://digilander.libero.it/Crislyfe/Smontaggio%20250%20GP/250%20GP%201%20(2)_640x480.jpg
http://digilander.libero.it/Crislyfe/Smontaggio%20250%20GP/Leveraggio%20GP.jpg
http://digilander.libero.it/Crislyfe/Smontaggio%20250%20GP/Rimontaggio%20GP%20(8).jpg

[BMWST?]

thats a lot of frame for a 250!

[husaberg]

thats a lot of frame for a 250!
if you click on the arrows it will lead to the Aprilia development story attached;)

Hello

I

I like

Shh ......its a secret:psst:

Italian Friday Aprilia RSV400

I assume the chassis is nearly identical. Are they?

Some more light able to be shed on this tasty little Italian Aprilia

[husaberg]

Yeah I'd kinda thought about Alchemy (ex pat, can't remember the name) but they use engine as a stressed where that shock pretty much needs (apart from its fairly unique length) to be where the frame spare or the tank is now. Non starter really despite being kinda cool.

Whats about this one..........http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291824&stc=1&d=1388543358

[F5 Dave]

Ok that's unique. Wonder how that works out as a linkage ratio, but that's pretty clever if it can Accommodate a reasonable rate.

[husaberg]

never seen one totally similar in concept....... although the Early RC125 and so forth had a cunning play on the twin shock with rockers but mounted conventionally the funny home made Maico engined thingy-maybobs had one similar to the honda as well i can't remember what they were called?

[Ocean1]

Ok that's unique. Wonder how that works out as a linkage ratio, but that's pretty clever if it can Accommodate a reasonable rate.

Cute eh? Ratio driven by the angle between the top link arm a tangent to the rocker pivot. Rate of change driven by top arm length.

Wonder why they mounted the top arm half way up the rear frame tube there, would be stronger mounted in the old top shock mount position.

[husaberg]

Randomness scanner was on.......

Note that early works Yamaha set up Dave (pic 2 )eerily similar to the RS125 conversion i posted a while back......
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=290807&d=1386562645

[Grumph]

never seen one totally similar in concept....... although the Early RC125 and so forth had a cunning play on the twin shock with rockers but mounted conventionally the funny home made Maico engined thingy-maybobs had one similar to the honda as well i can't remember what they were called?

Don't know the bikes you're quoting but that layout is the inverse of one in a book on Motocross suspension i saw years back...

They ran twin shocks, fairly forward mounted, with the lower end on rockers pivoted on the fork legs and linked to the frame by radius rods on each side. link rods on a different radius to the fork leg gave a rising rate effect.

that inverted layout in the pic probably has less unsprung weight but IMO it's not as neat...and the suspension loads go to strange places.

[speedpro]

V2 Alchemy from Perth. Owned by Brook Henry. The first bikes were raced at Waneroo when I was living there. The interesting suspension setup with the shock to the side of the bike was designed by Rob Henry I think.

Rob was ex RNZAF Avionics, got out, got an engineering degree and pissed off overseas where he's been doing very well. Rob and I did a few miles in his ute going to race meetings here in NZ.

Rob's old man is/was a very clever dude as well with a very juicy Valiant charger (initially triple strombergs but then turbocharged) and a sweet 1275 mini with serious engine. Both in mint condition. He also had a Black Bomber and a hairy T500 beach racer.

[husaberg]

Ok the Motor was a bit poo but the Harris Chassis.........
followed by some other Harris stuff.
http://www.harris-performance.com/acatalog/Harris_frame_kits_machined_parts.html
http://www.harris-performance.com/acatalog/Past_Harris_Machines.html

[cotswold]

Probably been here before

[cotswold]

Not sure I would go this way

[Grumph]

[QUOTE=cotswold;Not sure I would go this way[/QUOTE]

It's one for Rob to think about - How are you going to get the length of a CVT plus a reasonable length swingarm ?

Have to admit, Armoured trousers would be a bonus.....

[TZ350]

Not sure I would go this way

292453

Interestingly Chambers is actively building a CVT hybrid. He is grafting his old GP100 engine onto a set of GY6 4T CVT cases to power his side car. The last time the 100 ran it was 22hp hopefully we can increase that a bit.

[husaberg]

I seen a pic of these they gave decent dampening in the 60's

I had seen the Hornet many times and never noticed.
DMW made Metal profiles forks (or vise versa) used by many British lightweights but as far as i know only DMW used these forks.

[cotswold]

some odd balls