Race chassis

[cotswold]

I just thought I would post these pictures of a couple of bikes I raced back when I was faster.
The Waddon chassis was very basic but worked very well and I think would make a fantastic bucket frame. It was light and the bike handled well, the one I had was bought from Ian Young who had finished 2nd with it ( against all the MBA twins ) in the Marlborough British champs, this should give an idea of how good it was. The motor was a Rotax.

The Scitsu in the picture was not my one but I did ride it a few times, it is 2 aluminium plates bolted together with aluminium spacers in between, this one had a Kawasaki bottom end with an RG500 pot on it, my one had a Rotax in it and is owned at this time by Neil Hodsons dad, I know this as I got a request for some original photo's so he could restore it. The handling on the Scitsu was a little problematic at first with the front end tending to chatter through fast turns, this was resolved by altering the angle on the rear suspension. The bike was a little on the heavy side and there was talk of making one out of Honey comb but I don't think this ever happened. Tony Dawson and Nick Carpenter were the builders, Tony was also the Astrolite man I think.

[koba]

I just thought I would post these pictures of a couple of bikes I raced back when I was faster.
The Waddon chassis was very basic but worked very well and I think would make a fantastic bucket frame. It was light and the bike handled well, the one I had was bought from Ian Young who had finished 2nd with it ( against all the MBA twins ) in the Marlborough British champs, this should give an idea of how good it was. The motor was a Rotax.

The Scitsu in the picture was not my one but I did ride it a few times, it is 2 aluminium plates bolted together with aluminium spacers in between, this one had a Kawasaki bottom end with an RG500 pot on it, my one had a Rotax in it and is owned at this time by Neil Hodsons dad, I know this as I got a request for some original photo's so he could restore it. The handling on the Scitsu was a little problematic at first with the front end tending to chatter through fast turns, this was resolved by altering the angle on the rear suspension. The bike was a little on the heavy side and there was talk of making one out of Honey comb but I don't think this ever happened. Tony Dawson and Nick Carpenter were the builders, Tony was also the Astrolite man I think.

Fantastic!

You should have a yack to Cazy Man on here.

[Moooools]

Tony was also the Astrolite man I think.

I think you mean Astroheavy

[cotswold]

I think you mean Astroheavy

Yes well don't forget this was late 80's..............when were you born????

[Brian d marge]

They were the biz back then , mate had a 900ss with astros , , Me I went old school and went boranis

Stephen

[Moooools]

Yes well don't forget this was late 80's..............when were you born????

Haha yes I know. 1993.

I have a set of Astrolite/heavys that I run my wets on. They are not particularly light but they look the shit.

[Henk]

Haha yes I know. 1993.

bloody yoof of today, wonder how they'd cope with black and white TV and no Internet, speaking of which, aren't you supposed to be away on holiday? Get off line, go outside and roll in the sand or something.

[Rick 52]

They are brilliant ! The tube frame would make a magic bucket ..do you have a pic of it with it dressed ?

[Henk]

They are brilliant ! The tube frame would make a magic bucket ..do you have a pic of it with it dressed ?

What he said, why are you messing about with RS50 frames, crank up the welder and dazzle us all with your brilliance.

[Deano]

Pure bike porn there !

[cotswold]

They are brilliant ! The tube frame would make a magic bucket ..do you have a pic of it with it dressed ?

This was the day I bought it Ian brought it to Mallory park and I raced it the same day, it was bloody quick and I made a last lap lunge in the wet around Gerards for the win with the inevitable result, Robin Milton won and the truck picked me and all the bits of bike off the corner a few minutes later. I have an after photo but it makes me sad

[cotswold]

What he said, why are you messing about with RS50 frames, crank up the welder and dazzle us all with your brilliance.

If I could weld or engineer or machanic my bike would have been finished 10 months ago, the waddon is not a difficult build for someone clever and I think I can still get the dimensions but no promises on that one.

[koba]

If I could weld or engineer or machanic my bike would have been finished 10 months ago, the waddon is not a difficult build for someone clever and I think I can still get the dimensions but no promises on that one.

I'd been thinking of something similar with a huge aluminum tube. I've actually even got the perfect piece sitting about the place. Kind of like those Sachs things too. I'll probably never build anything like that though, just not a priority plus I'm pretty thin is the skill dept myself for something like that.

[Ivan]

just do it malcom make one im no engineer or loaded with skills and ive built my rs rip off

[Henk]

Ivan, I think people may be waiting to see if the engine falls out of yours after three laps before they start in on something similar.

[cotswold]

They were the biz back then , mate had a 900ss with astros , , Me I went old school and went boranis

Stephen

Boranis I could only dream about those:drool:

[crazy man]

Fantastic!

You should have a yack to Cazy Man on here.not crazyman hes crazy! here is one of mine with a nc30 in it 125 size bike
http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/62/199127862_full.jpg

[cotswold]

not crazyman hes crazy! here is one of mine with a nc30 in it 125 size bike
http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/62/199127862_full.jpg

That's a thing of beauty and looks way more difficult than the Waddon to build

[Grumph]

I'm pretty sure the Westoby's in timaru had a waddon/EMC/rotax similar to that one.

They built a yamaha 100 powered bucket with a copy frame too - a friend of mine bought it a few years back but had to wait to pick it up until they'd made a new seat/tank unit as they'd simply switched the 125 unit between bikes.
They had access to a mould for that unit.

I do spine frames for the aermacchi replicas - not surprised that what was felt as front end chatter came from the rear...they are "different " to set up.

[TZ350]

I do spine frames for the aermacchi replicas -

Please tell us more ...

[Pumba]

Man all of this talk has got me thinking about frames again, and a sudden desire to run out and buy a welder and start making a new frame for my FXR slug.

[cotswold]

I do spine frames for the aermacchi replicas - not surprised that what was felt as front end chatter came from the rear...they are "different " to set up.[/QUOTE]

It took me and the builder ages to figure that out but it was a nice bike to ride after

[crazy man]

I'm pretty sure the Westoby's in timaru had a waddon/EMC/rotax similar to that one.

They built a yamaha 100 powered bucket with a copy frame too - a friend of mine bought it a few years back but had to wait to pick it up until they'd made a new seat/tank unit as they'd simply switched the 125 unit between bikes.
They had access to a mould for that unit.

I do spine frames for the aermacchi replicas - not surprised that what was felt as front end chatter came from the rear...they are "different " to set up.l glad you have said about front end chatter l made the frame for glen willams svr650 and have what he thinks front end chatter! at the back of mind l'v have thought it could be the rear so will need to talk to him about that now

[crazy man]

That's a thing of beauty and looks way more difficult than the Waddon to buildit did take a 3-4 months to build but now sorted should get more sorted a lot faster. my brother cant wait to get it back on the track. handing like a dream now one little thing changed the bike big time

[Ocean1]

I think I can still get the dimensions but no promises on that one.

I'm all ears, dude. If there's a chance to build 3 or 4 you'd jig up for it, the cost to build wouldn't be too bad at all.

18swg Reynalds 531 would be good for all the tube there I take it? 2mm corten for the gussets? :sherlock:

[crazy man]

what kind of things did you do to remove the chatter from what was thought to be the front end to the rear?

[Grumph]

The Macchis - both original and replica frames are noted for front end patter if the rear spring rate is too high or the compression damping is too stiff. It's aggravated by the motors rotating "backwards"...to get them to put the (limited) power down we run a lot of swingarm droop.
It's not frame flex - OE frames spines are 65mm OD X 6 mm wall ---yes, six millimeters.... My replicas are 3 inch OD 2 mm wall.
Either are plenty stiff enough.
frame weight is not bad either...one of mine was weighed at a Post Classic meet at Manfield a few years back - 215 lb with a gallon or so of fuel on board....not bad for a 350 pushrod single.

I can't post pics here - my internet is very basic. a number of the ChCh bucket guys know who i am. Could be interested in frames, maybe.

Materials - i use seamless MS same as Ray breingan and others in NZ - reynolds tube aint easy to get - or cheap.

[cotswold]

[QUOTE=Ocean1;1130221521]I'm all ears, dude. If there's a chance to build 3 or 4 you'd jig up for it, the cost to build wouldn't be too bad at all.

I have sent off a couple of e mails and if I hear anything will let you know. One was to Keith and I gave him the forum details so watch this space

[cotswold]

what kind of things did you do to remove the chatter from what was thought to be the front end to the rear?

In my case we had tried almost every thing else and it was only a throw away comment by another rider that started us looking at the rear

[crazy man]

thanks guys pays to have a open mind on these matters. this case it chatters when you back of around fast corners. l know this it a diffient type of frame but worth a look

[husaberg]

I'm pretty sure the Westoby's in timaru had a waddon/EMC/rotax similar to that one.

They built a yamaha 100 powered bucket with a copy frame too - a friend of mine bought it a few years back but had to wait to pick it up until they'd made a new seat/tank unit as they'd simply switched the 125 unit between bikes.
They had access to a mould for that unit.

I do spine frames for the aermacchi replicas - not surprised that what was felt as front end chatter came from the rear...they are "different " to set up.

Some of Grumph's handy work.

[husaberg]

Some Waddon stuff i posted elsewhere

[cotswold]

Some Waddon stuff i posted elsewhere

How simple is that?

[husaberg]

I had this Dave brought them up on a previous thread they belong here more then the 2 stoke thread.

interesting stuff bellow the breasts as well 3 vs 5 spokes alloy vs carbon fibre why the original Astralights were stopped, solid vs spoked etc

[2T Institute]

Some Waddon stuff i posted elsewhere

Can anyone date the b/w pic? I am collating evidence to get a log book for Period 5 racing in Australia. I have a Rotax and a Kawasaki AR125 motors to put in there.I want to gather some evidence before I jig up for the frame.
I was lucky enough to contact an Engineer who worked for Erhlich , who confirmed the 125/250 were available in 1981.
Any help greatly apprecaited.

[Hilleye]

It's not frame flex - OE frames spines are 65mm OD X 6 mm wall ---yes, six millimeters.... My replicas are 3 inch OD 2 mm wall. Either are plenty stiff enough. Frame weight is not bad either...one of mine was weighed at a Post Classic meet at Manfield a few years back - 215 lb with a gallon or so of fuel on board....not bad for a 350 pushrod single.

Could you use the internal space in the spine (or part of it at least) as the fuel tank? Maybe save yourself a kg or 2 in tank weight.

[husaberg]

Can anyone date the b/w pic? I am collating evidence to get a log book for Period 5 racing in Australia. I have a Rotax and a Kawasaki AR125 motors to put in there.I want to gather some evidence before I jig up for the frame.
I was lucky enough to contact an Engineer who worked for Erhlich , who confirmed the 125/250 were available in 1981.
Any help greatly apprecaited.

Yes i can date the article the pic came from i will post the whole article it has the armstrong the Waddon the Red Rocket and the EMC.
I will see where i have put it the others are ESP the Spondon or was it Harris frame and the semi Monoque are interesting if not as simple as the Waddon.

[husaberg]

Could you use the internal space in the spine (or part of it at least) as the fuel tank? Maybe save yourself a kg or 2 in tank weight.

The biggest problem with these style frames is accommodating the carb in a non rotary valve engine. Obviously not asn issue on a Rotary valve. The frame ends up needing long plates to join the spine in a straight path from the steering head to accommodate the swing arm which in terms compromises the simple concept.this is with a reed valve I hope this makes sense.

[husaberg]

This from Jackie Paterson in Ireland, "this photo is of the first customer waddon I sold. The guy on the right bought it for the great Gary Cowan in 82. He drove to waddon himself to get it and brought it & 2 more back for me. The others went to Bertie George for Robert Dunlop and Brian Hewitt to ride. He still owns it. The other went to Donny and Neil Robinsons brother Nigel who sold it to a friend Noel Gault who still owns that one. Obviously popular the 125 as the original owners still have them or want them back. The guy on the left is a friend of mine who restored the bike. Henry Stewart the owner got the bike back in a rough state from a guy Freddie Rowen in the south who believe it or not was sponsored on it by the edge from U2! Theres a short history for you lol"

Ken McIntosh
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} </style> <![endif]--> Ken McIntosh build a spine frame for the Rotax twin in between 1980 and 81. It won the NZ 250 tt with Mike Pero ridding the bike. The bike was built for Andrew Mclaren it featured a 75mm spine in 16 gauge and weighed 6.4kg all up it was twin shock as per Kens style at the time. Ken also did at least one Egli replica that Hugh Anderson won the BOT series against the Ducatis etc in around the same period.







http://2stroker.createforumhosting.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1040&start=0&&view=print (http://2stroker.createforumhosting.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1040&start=0&&view=print)
http://teamheronsuzuki.blogspot.com/2010/10/ciba-geigy-rg-and-rgv500.html
http://www.tzracing.btinternet.co.uk/page7.html
http://www.fondseca.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1087
http://cybermotorcycle.com/euro/wikig/Waddon_Performance_Products.html
http://www.waddon.me/members/

[Grumph]

Could you use the internal space in the spine (or part of it at least) as the fuel tank? Maybe save yourself a kg or 2 in tank weight.

Yeah, it's possible - but think about an inclined spine under brakes, interruption to the fuel flow, yes ? This is why I've never used them as oil tanks on 4 strokes. The Egli horizontal spine is used successfully as an oil tank - but that one is shorter and easy to insert baffles before closing up.

[2T Institute]

Thanks for that Husaberg

[husaberg]

Cotswolt and Grumph i guess know people in common

this is Grumph talking BTW
the story as I've been told it....Pa Westoby went to the UK in the late 70's. Saw the waddon/EMC Rotax that were being raced.
Took pics - and maybe did a sly measure up as well. Came home with two Rotax 125 motors - and it would seem a seat/tank unit as well.

They built two 125's and a spare frame as well. The two sons raced the 125's quite extensively. Some time pre 82 the third frame was turned into
a bucket with a 100 Yamaha motor. The original motor which the current owner still has uses a piston port water cooled barrel which is believed to
have been cast from Jim Cashman's patterns for the C3 barrels. Currently a reed valve barrel is fitted.
For the younger ones - the C3 was a Timaru built 350 three based on Suzuki 380 crank and cases. water cooled barrels of course.
In the support 350 class of the Marlboro Series Jim Landrebe riding the C3 beat the reigning 350 World Champ, Chas Mortimer.
Cashman was the first really good NZ based two stroke tuner.

The last time we spoke to the Westobys they still had the two Rotax 125's tucked away. Lex who had the bucket was finishing off the
replica motor for the Richard Pearse aircraft which was finished in time to fly for the anniversary of Pearce's flight.

The problem for the owner of this bucket is just what to do with it....it's such a historic piece of work. Bringing it up to date with 17in wheels etc
is not really worth doing. I've suggested restoring it nicely and running it at the occasional CAMS meeting.

Husaberg - post this if you like - or just hold it for your archives....

[husaberg]

Bits that wouldn't fit above.

[Ivan]

stolen off a website for anyone intrested in building a rs type frame


What is a Minimono?

As the name suggests, a Minimono is a smaller race bike, and they are generally based around 125 Grand Prix bike geometry and proportions. They are typically specified as follows:
• Approximately 22° to 24° steering head angle
• Wheelbase in the vicinity of 1215mm to 1270mm
• 2.5” x 17” front wheel and 3.5” x 17” rear wheel, running on 125GP slicks (or intermediates or full wets in the event of rain) from any of the tyre companies
• A seat height of approximately of 700mm to 730mm

[husaberg]

stolen off a website for anyone intrested in building a rs type frame


What is a Minimono?

As the name suggests, a Minimono is a smaller race bike, and they are generally based around 125 Grand Prix bike geometry and proportions. They are typically specified as follows:
• Approximately 22° to 24° steering head angle
• Wheelbase in the vicinity of 1215mm to 1270mm
• 2.5” x 17” front wheel and 3.5” x 17” rear wheel, running on 125GP slicks (or intermediates or full wets in the event of rain) from any of the tyre companies
• A seat height of approximately of 700mm to 730mm

Ivan did you read the whole article?

http://www.supermononewsletter.co.uk/content/17-Supermono-History


Constructing a Minimono requires a similar approach, but before embarking on a build it is probably a good idea to look at the types of Minimonos that have so far been constructed. First, there is the original Minimono; this consists of a 450cc motocross engine, sometimes bored and/or stroked slightly, with power outputs ranging from approximately 47 to 65BHP depending on the amount of tuning. The second type is sometimes referred to as a ‘Micromono’; these use 250cc motocross engines, which have outputs from 37 to 45BHP. The potential advantage of this configuration is that as the engine typically makes up such a large proportion of the bike mass, a significantly lower weight can be more easily achieved by employing such a small engine. The third option is sometimes referred to as a ‘Midimono’. This is a ‘Mini’ rolling chassis with a 450cc to approximately 660cc engine, such as the Rotax 604, Honda XR650, KTM’s 610 and the new KTM 690 series (653cc), having power outputs from approximately 55 to 75BHP. Sometimes the chassis is slightly ‘stretched’ to give the correct weight distribution once the bigger, heavier engine has been fitted. Consequently this gives a larger rider more room to fit on the bike, whilst still maintaining the agility that is a characteristic of the narrower wheels and tyres.

[Ivan]

Ivan did you read the whole article?

http://www.supermononewsletter.co.uk/content/17-Supermono-History

yeah i read the whole article heaps just disected that part out for anyone intrested in building a frame and what not

[crazy man]

Ivan did you read the whole article?

http://www.supermononewsletter.co.uk/content/17-Supermono-Historyl dont know why place's quote 250 mx bikes have these silly figgers when a good one is only 24hp . 450's put out the 48 hp type mark stock

[husaberg]

l dont know why place's quote 250 mx bikes have these silly figgers when a good one is only 24hp . 450's put out the 48 hp type mark stock
Which is less than my old 501 Berg

[Ivan]

l dont know why place's quote 250 mx bikes have these silly figgers when a good one is only 24hp . 450's put out the 48 hp type mark stock

yeah the figures are crazy what they put out

[cotswold]

This was my attempt at building a big single but I hated the damn thing
Motor was a KLR600 tuned by Mike Hatheral, it had a high comp piston, megacycle cam and was heavily worked on the head, I ran a humongous Dellorto carb. The chassis was the reason for my loathing, it was an early TZR 250 and it had serious head shaking problems, and I mean it would go into a massive tank slappers that could cause involuntary bowel movements, the only thing that made it ride-able was a fully set steering damper.
The pictures are my before and after a round up in sunny Cadwell park in March.

[jasonu]

Which is less than my old 501 Berg

and my (since sold) 1981 MAico 490

[husaberg]

and my (since sold) 1981 MAico 490
Less than my CR500 as well
Curiously this also old banger below has more hp as well.
So much for progress.

No the Manx is not mine although i wish it was.

[Moooools]

This was my attempt at building a big single but I hated the damn thing
Motor was a KLR600 tuned by Mike Hatheral, it had a high comp piston, megacycle cam and was heavily worked on the head, I ran a humongous Dellorto carb. The chassis was the reason for my loathing, it was an early TZR 250 and it had serious head shaking problems, and I mean it would go into a massive tank slappers that could cause involuntary bowel movements, the only thing that made it ride-able was a fully set steering damper.
The pictures are my before and after a round up in sunny Cadwell park in March.

Is a fibreglass tank cover I spy? or just the stock tank with the underside cut out.
I was going to redo my fibreglass one but if someone has a mold sitting around it would ber seriously handy.

[jasonu]

Less than my CR500 as well
Curiously this also old banger below has more hp as well.
So much for progress.

No the Manx is not mine although i wish it was.

Why does your CR500 have Bucket wheels???

[husaberg]

Why does your CR500 have Bucket wheels???

It came with them I am pretty sure they are CBR400 but not totally they are from memory 3 and 4 inch
But you are on to my cunning plan.

Insert engine into rs or Nsr chassis put on full fairing and lets go bucket racing :lol:

[Henk]

I thought it may have been an extra capacity allowance for two strokes under sup regs to give the oil burners a chance angainst the diesels.

[Hilleye]

I thought it may have been an extra capacity allowance for two strokes under sup regs to give the oil burners a chance angainst the diesels.

I'm for that, lets allow unrestricted 125cc water cooled two strokes. Obviously not purpose buit racers though.

[cotswold]

Is a fibreglass tank cover I spy? or just the stock tank with the underside cut out.
I was going to redo my fibreglass one but if someone has a mold sitting around it would ber seriously handy.

Just the original cut out with a small ally one underneath

[husaberg]

I am not totally sure it is a spine but it sure looks like it is.

Colin Seeley sure did some beautiful frames (never did go much for his seats though
Straight tubes from the steering head was his later trademark as in modern designs.
Made a few frames for the works racers as well.
He also in collaboration did one of the first Monoque race frames as well. I think he bet Norton with the JPS

This Norton F type 1955 also predates Foale by a number of years.
Moto Guzzi probably predates his and Scott predates Guzzi and so forth.

I have added the Paul Dunstall "Drainpipe" frame because i mainly see it as a amalgamation of both and i love the pipes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QreNam7_wmY

[husaberg]

Rake and Trail calculator

Not a bad site a bit of every thing some useful stuff its in my top 20.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/advchoppercalc.html

Grumph sent me this name the date of this frame no prizes for the manufacturer for anyone over 30 that's obvious, but the date may surprise a few.

[gatch]

Best forum thread ever. Some clever cunts at work here..

The norton domi I race is a home build frame. Built from a photo of a wideline featherbed ? I think it's on it's 3rd incarnation.

254334254335

[husaberg]

Will add more later.

Grumph asked why the fellow in the NWS pic looked bonkers. Well he is, in a good way.
I will post why later.

[koba]

Will add more later.

Grumph asked why the fellow in the NWS pic looked bonkers. Well he is, in a good way.
I will post why later.

They both look like they may have had a bit of a fry-up on the glass barbecue...

[husaberg]

They both look like they may have had a bit of a fry-up on the glass barbecue...
The other guys was in Business with Simon willingly, so fair call they both were nutty then.

It is said there is a fine line between Genius and insanity'

Note the price a bargain at twice the price the guy is a genius.
Also note Simon Martin looks sane in this picture, the only one i have ever seen where he does.

[crazy man]

here is what you can see of the first frame l made
http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/23/200177623_full.jpg
and one im doing now
http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/88/200176588_full.jpg

[Ivan]

both awsome and genious

[koba]

and one im doing now
http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/88/200176588_full.jpg

What's the engine and intended use?

Looks good.

[crazy man]

What's the engine and intended use?

Looks good.that one is going to be a 2 fold thing a f3 bike and a bucket bike. it has a tz250 motor in it. you will know who its for
in this site if he shows his face.

[crazy man]

both awsome and geniousmaking me drink to. l need to get my fxr150 frame made

[koba]

that one is going to be a 2 fold thing a f3 bike and a bucket bike. it has a tz250 motor in it. you will know who its for
in this site if he shows his face.

Ahh, right! Of Course!

[ajturbo]

and one im doing now


oo can you make one like my Buell.. with the fuel in the tube...:devil2:

[husaberg]

The guy holding sind the Harris Gp500 frame is Alf Mossel an artist craftsman in construction the frame is based on the 91 YZR500 frame Interesting ROC also made them but used a entirely different approach to manufacturing. Each one of the Harris GP500 chassis contains 150 seperate parts all hand made.

[Ivan]

making me drink to. l need to get my fxr150 frame made

Oh your making a frame like that for a fxr? I better hurry up I want the first 4 stroke Gp inspired chassis in buckets haha

[crazy man]

Oh your making a frame like that for a fxr? I better hurry up I want the first 4 stroke Gp inspired chassis in buckets hahayou better hurry up i have started already if l can't win on the track l will go for the frame lol..gets back to the shed

[crazy man]

Ahh, right! Of Course!has it clicked lol

[Ivan]

you better hurry up i have started already if l can't win on the track l will go for the frame lol..gets back to the shed

gonna be good to get some 4 stroke beasts out there mynes gonna be nothing on yours if your last ones are to go by!! I hope to have it readyish soon

[crazy man]

gonna be good to get some 4 stroke beasts out there mynes gonna be nothing on yours if your last ones are to go by!! I hope to have it readyish soononce you have done the first the sec is alot easyer. the main thing is to get the fork head strate up and down. when you think your so close to finshing it, it drags on for ever with so meany little things

[Ivan]

once you have done the first the sec is alot easyer. the main thing is to get the fork head strate up and down. when you think your so close to finshing it, it drags on for ever with so meany little things

fully agree there it seems so close yet is so far away, and I have limited time to use the resources I need so it might be a month between buildings on it as the workshop I use I cant use all the time,

Yeah Im really hoping I did get the fork head straight up and down I bolted the front end down at the angle I wanted with the steering head attached to forks,

Its quite a mission when I have never built a frame before I keep thinking have I done this right or is this part strong enough and the main one always running through my mind is I hope it dont snap on me

[Ivan]

here are some of my favourite chassis the honda tigcraft is my favourite

[Grumph]

Ivan - if you're worried about the integrity of your frame, bolt it down to a heavy bench or similar and start levering...

If it bends before breaking, straighten it and congratulate yourself on having learnt what ductility means...

If it breaks before bending, blame poor design/faulty materials/poor welding/someone else.....and start again.

It's often eye opening to strap a frame down and see where and how much it moves.
There's a scrutineer for a club here in ChCh who delights in showing how much things move...and the bugger's strong too.
I've seen him break spokes...

[Ivan]

Ivan - if you're worried about the integrity of your frame, bolt it down to a heavy bench or similar and start levering...

If it bends before breaking, straighten it and congratulate yourself on having learnt what ductility means...

If it breaks before bending, blame poor design/faulty materials/poor welding/someone else.....and start again.

It's often eye opening to strap a frame down and see where and how much it moves.
There's a scrutineer for a club here in ChCh who delights in showing how much things move...and the bugger's strong too.
I've seen him break spokes...


im gonna give it to my uncle whos a engineer and is really fussy and let him at it when hes done to see what he thinks,

[Bert]

making me drink to. l need to get my fxr150 frame made

I better bring a few more beers around then....:msn-wink:

Can't wait to see what you come up with for an FXR.

[Ivan]

I better bring a few more beers around then....:msn-wink:

Can't wait to see what you come up with for an FXR.

neither can I should be nice either way

[crazy man]

here are some of my favourite chassis the honda tigcraft is my favouritethe honda one looks like it would fall to bits or not take much of a crash the KTM looks the better one (-:

[Ivan]

the orange KTM? or the silver? Orange is nice probably what I will paint my one up like

[crazy man]

the orange KTM? or the silver? Orange is nice probably what I will paint my one up likethe silver tank one is not to bad to

[gav]

that one is going to be a 2 fold thing a f3 bike and a bucket bike. it has a tz250 motor in it. you will know who its for
in this site if he shows his face.

I could be wrong here, but good luck racing buckets with a TZ250 motor in it! :2thumbsup ;)


Had a crack at building a frame many moons ago.

[gav]

Its now found another life as a bike trailer behind a Yamaha 1600 thingy by a KBer!

[crazy man]

I could be wrong here, but good luck racing buckets with a TZ250 motor in it! :2thumbsup ;)


Had a crack at building a frame many moons ago.the frame has been made in a way to take other motors not like my other ones (-:
what did your home build bucket handle like?

[Grumph]

More to the point - how the hell did you bend the side spars ? And why such an acute bend ?

[F5 Dave]

A cute bend? I think you'd struggle to make it any uglier:pinch:. All good bucket stuff.

[crazy man]

More to the point - how the hell did you bend the side spars ? And why such an acute bend ?thats what l was thinking why so acute and wheel base looks so short

[gav]

Just the way it turned out, was a joint effort, lol. Probably several joints involved, actually. :whistle: Planned on the flash as Deltabox look, but yeah didnt quite end up like that. Built it with a couple of other guys help, the guy that built the spars and headstock etc worked for a company that built alloy jet boats etc he welded it all up etc, after I got it back it was a bit of "ohhhh, hmmmmm, oh well ..." lol
Was built to run on go kart tracks originally. It looked better with the RS125 tail I origanily ran. Kinda lost interest in it by the time of these photos, hence the GP100 sitting in some photos as well. The DT100 motor is the engine that Drew has inherited, but never seemed to want to rev out properly. Felt strong off the bottom, with OK mid range but then just dead up top. Wouldve liked to have tried another pipe on it, to see if that was holding it back. The pipe was built by Motorcycle Exhaust Specialists down here in Chch, after they assured me that "oh yeah, we can build ya a decent expansion chamber" only to find out later that they didnt really know what to do as far as designing a pipe to suit the motor so built a pipe based on the exhaust they built for Kevin Orr's MB100 :brick: It was certainly well built and nicely tucked in, but don't think it did the engine and favours. Motor was also ported by someone who "did that sort of thing" and again I'm not too sure if that helped or not.
So then I decided I'd get a GP100, race that and work on getting that motor tuned and eventually stick the GP100 motor into the alloy frame, but never got around to it. Had raced a couple of times at Karrs Road in Halswell, then kinda lost contact with the bucket scene after they got kicked off. Sat in the garage for quite awhile, until I bought a crashed CBR600, as a doer upper, the buckets got shifted outside under a tarp and thought best to try and flog them off before the rust etc killed them. Sold both bikes as one sale for I think $400 :brick: and the guy didnt really want the alloy one, just wanted the GP100, so could hardly give it away in the end. Oh well ....
Best thing I ever did was get a FXR150 ;)

[crazy man]

Just the way it turned out, was a joint effort, lol. Probably several joints involved, actually. :whistle: Planned on the flash as Deltabox look, but yeah didnt quite end up like that. Built it with a couple of other guys help, the guy that built the spars and headstock etc worked for a company that built alloy jet boats etc he welded it all up etc, after I got it back it was a bit of "ohhhh, hmmmmm, oh well ..." lol
Was built to run on go kart tracks originally. It looked better with the RS125 tail I origanily ran. Kinda lost interest in it by the time of these photos, hence the GP100 sitting in some photos as well. The DT100 motor is the engine that Drew has inherited, but never seemed to want to rev out properly. Felt strong off the bottom, with OK mid range but then just dead up top. Wouldve liked to have tried another pipe on it, to see if that was holding it back. The pipe was built by Motorcycle Exhaust Specialists down here in Chch, after they assured me that "oh yeah, we can build ya a decent expansion chamber" only to find out later that they didnt really know what to do as far as designing a pipe to suit the motor so built a pipe based on the exhaust they built for Kevin Orr's MB100 :brick: It was certainly well built and nicely tucked in, but don't think it did the engine and favours. Motor was also ported by someone who "did that sort of thing" and again I'm not too sure if that helped or not.
So then I decided I'd get a GP100, race that and work on getting that motor tuned and eventually stick the GP100 motor into the alloy frame, but never got around to it. Had raced a couple of times at Karrs Road in Halswell, then kinda lost contact with the bucket scene after they got kicked off. Sat in the garage for quite awhile, until I bought a crashed CBR600, as a doer upper, the buckets got shifted outside under a tarp and thought best to try and flog them off before the rust etc killed them. Sold both bikes as one sale for I think $400 :brick: and the guy didnt really want the alloy one, just wanted the GP100, so could hardly give it away in the end. Oh well .... Best thing I ever did was get a FXR150 ;)at the end of the day you did finsh it witch is more than alot of people do right or wrong there is just as the same amount of work involved

[Brian d marge]

at the end of the day you did finsh it witch is more than alot of people do right or wrong there is just as the same amount of work involved

+100 for that ( it takes ALOT of work to build a bike .)

Lots of respect to those who finish the project

Bike for me no , problem , all of those other ones that I dont do

like learning a language , losing wieght ,,,,,,,

Stephen

[Ivan]

agreed alot of joy building it but theres times you want to give up especially near the start ahha

[richban]

I better bring a few more beers around then....:msn-wink:

Can't wait to see what you come up with for an FXR.

You just concentrate on getting that bucket ready for the GP young man. You can't miss another one.

[Ivan]

You just concentrate on getting that bucket ready for the GP young man. You can't miss another one.

hopefully ill be at the next gp

[richban]

hopefully ill be at the next gp

Good stuff. Last GP there was a guy on a home build bike. It was very cool. Apparently made from old chair legs. It looked very well put together. Nice paint and looked to handle rather well. Not sure where he is from but someone might have a pic to upload.

I was hoping to get my new bike sorted for the GP but parts still missing and no time. MC21 with my trusty old FXR engine. RS wheels. SP rear shock and some MC28 forks. Should be a good bike when finished.

[TZ350]

Good stuff. Last GP there was a guy on a home build bike. It was very cool. Apparently made from old chair legs. It looked very well put together. Nice paint and looked to handle rather well. Not sure where he is from but someone might have a pic to upload.

254966

Marshang from ChristChurch maybe.

[Ivan]

yamaha Moto3 biek built in USA

http://www.framecrafters.net/pimg/big/1Moto3

[Ivan]

Good stuff. Last GP there was a guy on a home build bike. It was very cool. Apparently made from old chair legs. It looked very well put together. Nice paint and looked to handle rather well. Not sure where he is from but someone might have a pic to upload.

I was hoping to get my new bike sorted for the GP but parts still missing and no time. MC21 with my trusty old FXR engine. RS wheels. SP rear shock and some MC28 forks. Should be a good bike when finished.

Nice sounds good they a big chassis tho ae? much like a Honda RS250

[Moooools]

Nice sounds good they a big chassis tho ae? much like a Honda RS250

Most people can't fit on a 125 Size bike.

Everyone wants to put their FXR in an aluminium chassis since Hamish and I did it. Get your own ideas Rich. :bleh:

[koba]

Apparently made from old chair legs.

When we were at school a mate and I pulled a whole pile of legs off old chairs and desks that were in the skip out the back.

Handy size, still got a tiny bit left, used some for a foot-peg a few months ago!

[Ivan]

Most people can't fit on a 125 Size bike.

Everyone wants to put their FXR in an aluminium chassis since Hamish and I did it. Get your own ideas Rich. :bleh:

im 6 foot 2

[crazy man]

You just concentrate on getting that bucket ready for the GP young man. You can't miss another one.think he heard you about 6 hours ago before you posted this lol. l need to get a bucket made bring back that obsechion l once had

[crazy man]

Most people can't fit on a 125 Size bike.

Everyone wants to put their FXR in an aluminium chassis since Hamish and I did it. Get your own ideas Rich. :bleh:l have seen what homer simpson made you lol

[richban]

Nice sounds good they a big chassis tho ae? much like a Honda RS250

Not so bad. My Honda RS250 is a little bit smaller than my FXR. The NSR should be about the same a little longer but not much. Front forks are the same length as the FXR. Not a bad weight at 7kg with clamps and axel. Caster is 1 degree less in the NSR. 23. rather than 24. I am just under 6'2" and not that flexible anymore so should be good. Sitting on the RS250 feels just right so will be trying for the same riding pos with the bucket. Looking for 85kg all up.

[richban]

think he heard you about 6 hours ago before you posted this lol. l need to get a bucket made bring back that obsechion l once had

Yeah when that thing is done it will be a very smart and fast bike. I am thinking if the rider can man up and get on the gas, it will be hard to beat. hehe:niceone:

[Pumba]

Home built frame at the GP would have been Garry Johnston's GL145 special. I would dig up a picture but not on my laptop.

Seems to handle bloody well and the engine is a weapon. Qualified quite well at the GP from memory.

[richban]

Home built frame at the GP would have been Garry Johnston's GL145 special. I would dig up a picture but not on my laptop.

Seems to handle bloody well and the engine is a weapon. Qualified quite well at the GP from memory.



Thats the one. Yellow frame and white tank / seat. Very cool.

[Bert]

..... I am thinking if the rider can man up and get on the gas, it will be hard to beat. hehe:niceone:

:niceone: time will tell; better get some training in. this weekend looks like fun. I wander if now wife will let me out.... heehehe the first test of marriage (within a week)..:laugh:

[crazy man]

:niceone: time will tell; better get some training in. this weekend looks like fun. I wander if now wife will let me out.... heehehe the first test of marriage (within a week)..:laugh:you are doomed mate l beter ride that bike lol

[husaberg]

Not so bad. My Honda RS250 is a little bit smaller than my FXR. The NSR should be about the same a little longer but not much. Front forks are the same length as the FXR. Not a bad weight at 7kg with clamps and axel. Caster is 1 degree less in the NSR. 23. rather than 24. I am just under 6'2" and not that flexible anymore so should be good. Sitting on the RS250 feels just right so will be trying for the same riding pos with the bucket. Looking for 85kg all up.

I think the drawings are both NSR250 MC21

The pic is the older MC16

[sidwyz]

Thats the one. Yellow frame and white tank / seat. Very cool.

That would be Dads one,

Yep was made out of old chair legs he had lying around, was loosely modeled off his monster s4r.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dty1/6373501651/in/set-72157628073869347/ the only picture I have of it.

Started as a gl145, basicaly he just built the new frame around the old backbone one, then chopped the old part of the frame away,
main objective was to join the headstock to the swingarm which after riding I can confirm it is.
I reckon if the condensor wire hadn't broken in the two hour we could of been top 3! It is faster in a straight line than most, handles ok too.

Engine is gl145 with a bit of work done sucking through Mikuni Tm32.

Gl145 forks with emulators in there, swing arm is gl145 with some welding and bracing added to make a new shock pickup for the $70 chinese shock.

carbon fibre or kevlar tank cover and a small homemade tank as well.

Last meet we weighed it in at mid 80s.

Lets just say there are plans in place to build a new frame. wont go into any details but just wait and see!

[Pumba]

This has all got me thinking, well dreaming is probably more correct as I have no tools time of money to undertake a project of this type, but what is the best material to construct these frames out of?

I mean obtainable stuff that the normal man could work with.

[Kickaha]

I mean obtainable stuff that the normal man could work with.

Plywood, cover sheets are cheap as Bro

[Ivan]

im just using ordinary tube steel you find everywere like 1.5mm thick mynes all scrap steel

I dont have much engineering skills at all but just jumped straight into it thought what is there to be lost from giving it a go and its came out good so far, ok its not the best but its my first ever frame I built and limited gear, I really want to get a job as a engineer now and learn to become even better and make a proper jog now know how Im going to do it and make a way better frame which will probably happen but ill get this one going first then worry about another

[crazy man]

im just using ordinary tube steel you find everywere like 1.5mm thick mynes all scrap steel

I dont have much engineering skills at all but just jumped straight into it thought what is there to be lost from giving it a go and its came out good so far, ok its not the best but its my first ever frame I built and limited gear, I really want to get a job as a engineer now and learn to become even better and make a proper jog now know how Im going to do it and make a way better frame which will probably happen but ill get this one going first then worry about anotherlooks like its been all done before we should give up why we are ahead

[husaberg]

This has all got me thinking, well dreaming is probably more correct as I have no tools time of money to undertake a project of this type, but what is the best material to construct these frames out of?

I mean obtainable stuff that the normal man could work with.

That laterally (get it, Its a frame joke)

Pick what you want then think of people that use it.
if you want aluminum look to people that make bull bars etc.
If you want light gauge steel look to furniture makers
High grade steel such as chrome-molly stock cars the top guys use it for roll cadges if have seen it on the net in NZ.
Go karts the real ones are possible sources as are push bikes.
Grumph has used steel from an unusual source for a large diameter spine.
thin Alloy pipe think irrigation.
Micro metals are happy to sell alloy by the meter. They sell all sorts of round, sheet, plate, tube, box section and extrusions etc
people who build stock crates mainly now use alloy as well.
Its amazing what is at scrap metal dealers and in scrap bins.
I have a surf board at home that a guy at work had ts broken but it is the start of either a tank male or a Carbon fibre frame.
You can also buy ready made Carbon fibre tube as well its used in push bikes.

You of course can cut up an old motorbike frame as well. But avoid anything Chinese.
Want some pipe bend a lot of guys that do cowsheds ESP rotaries have computer controlled 3 axis benders.
Most of the mufler shops have real flash mandrel benders now.
in fact my area i live in has a foundry an autoclave is over the road. 4 specialist alloy/Stainless fabricators.
Why? it has a tyre shop, factory and we have mining and dairy farming. population 8000.
Beer goes a long way.

[Ocean1]

what is the best material to construct these frames out of?

I mean obtainable stuff that the normal man could work with.

16swg seam welded mild steel tube, as in exhaust tube. Any exhaust shop will sell you pieces by the meter, most of 'em will let you rummage through their scrap bin for bits of bends etc. You might have to hunt around for some of the smaller diameter bits, but it's cheap enough.

You can gas weld it, TIG weld it, MIG weld it, (if you must) or braize it, choose one method and learn how.

That's all. The only real "trick" is making the joints fit perfectly and clamping it together BEFORE you pick up the welder.

[Bert]

looks like its been all done before we should give up why we are ahead

NOoo..

You'll just have to dig out that old centre hub steering beast and mount it into something new...:niceone:

[husaberg]

16swg seam welded mild steel tube, as in exhaust tube. Any exhaust shop will sell you pieces by the meter, most of 'em will let you rummage through their scrap bin for bits of bends etc. You might have to hunt around for some of the smaller diameter bits, but it's cheap enough.

You can gas weld it, TIG weld it, MIG weld it, (if you must) or braize it, choose one method and learn how.

That's all. The only real "trick" is making the joints fit perfectly and clamping it together BEFORE you pick up the welder.

I was going to check but seeing as you brought it up, but as most of us (Well i don't have much patience) i saw a notcher in a tool mag the other day Topmaq i think.

[Ocean1]

I was going to check but seeing as you brought it up, but as most of us (Well i don't have much patience) i saw a notcher in a tool mag the other day Topmaq i think.

Never owned one, I got by with a half round file, a 4" disc grinder and a die grinder. But then I don't do a whole lot of tube work.

Stil, any excuse to buy tools...

[Ivan]

looks like its been all done before we should give up why we are ahead

your bikes pretty much the reason I built myne its awsomeness

[husaberg]

Never owned one, I got by with a half round file, a 4" disc grinder and a die grinder. But then I don't do a whole lot of tube work.

Stil, any excuse to buy tools...
I have not a lot of patience.
but yes a chainsaw files are real good for detail work also awesome for slotting out holes on manifolds etc.

Come to think of it as its diy......... Chainsaws Nah... no Lux saws love em i wish i had one.

But cheap Drill press and tapered grinding bits also work. Or just the drill and tappered grinding bit.

Also Bimetal holes saw bits are real useful and last surprising well if lubed well.
Even the cheap Warehouse style bargain bin ones will do a few cuts if lubed.

[Ivan]

here is what you can see of the first frame l made
http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/23/200177623_full.jpg
and one im doing now
http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/88/200176588_full.jpg

what I love about the current bike is the hammer in the photo

[Grumph]

Never owned one, I got by with a half round file, a 4" disc grinder and a die grinder. But then I don't do a whole lot of tube work.

Stil, any excuse to buy tools...

I do - and you've got the right tools. Notchers are a waste of money unless you're using very heavy wall tube. You become an artist with a disc grinder with practise.

The only part I do differently is swingarm legs - I use a holesaw in a jig to profile the inner ends and ensure they're the same length.

I buy my tube from specialty steels in ChCh who took over Southwards a few years ago. Many diameters and gauges available and pretty cheap too. Using offcuts you often find you just don't have the right size....

[koba]

MIG weld it, (if you must)

I use a MIG because I have a desk job and haven't learn to use other methods.. The old man gives me shit and whenever there is a real critical join he offers to do it for me with "Something better than that hot-glue gun".

[crazy man]

what I love about the current bike is the hammer in the photoha ha think that was there to prop the front of the motor up to get the front end in lol not a good look

[crazy man]

your bikes pretty much the reason I built myne its awsomenessthanks you better show some progress pic's of yours

[Pumba]

Plywood, cover sheets are cheap as Bro

Sweet. Neighbors are building next for a there are scraps of roofing ply just lying around, odd bit of 2x4 as well

[F5 Dave]

. . . Any exhaust shop will sell you pieces by the meter, . . .
So look for their Meter & buy the steel under it.:confused:

[Kickaha]

odd bit of 2x4 as well
You can use that for the swingarm

[husaberg]

Although done by Terry Prince.
Sorry the quality is a bit poor. But it is of higher quality than Kicka's last joke:bleh:

This style of spine frame is normally used to house sizable lumps such as fours and Vincents harleys etc.

[Hilleye]

This style of spine frame is normally used to house sizable lumps such as fours and Vincents harleys etc.

I used to own one of those, it was actually for a bucket and i think the spine was made out of the drive shaft of a car. It was made by a m/c engine builder based in Te Atatu and from memory it was all braized together. Didn't weigh much at all. Unfortunately never got the chance to ride it with an engine in (he bought it back off me before I could get a CB125T into it) so can't testify to its rigidity.

[F5 Dave]

Nice pics
mmm, almost zero swingarm droop & 30 odd degree steering head angle. Should handle like its on rails.


Literally.

[husaberg]

Nice pics
mmm, almost zero swingarm droop & 30 odd degree steering head angle. Should handle like its on rails.


Literally.

27.5 degrees according to the blub for faster steering response. than std.
The Egli frames were originally i believe designed for hill climbing Road racing was banned in Switzerland from memory as Interferes with the cuckoo clocks or something.
In the other pics with the engine in and the wheels on the ground it does have surprisingly little droop though.
They were renowned i believe for their stability.
But this one looks like it could do with longer shocks.
Which could account for the lazy looking head angle.
But a quick note remember these old bikes ran rear tires equivalent to a front tire on a rs125 front tire(probably skinnier) and most likely in triangular profile so the steering is probably a little quicker than it looks.
It has a 4 inch spine and is 1.8mm wall thickness rather than the std 2.4mm road version.
The gearbox plates for the Norton/AMC transmission used are 9/16 (14mm?) 7075 T6 Aluminum.
So someone had hacked off the Vincent gearbox previously.
What you can't see in the picture is the beautiful engine turned finish on the gearbox plates.
Oh how i adore it.

[husaberg]

Some interesting stuff here about properties and design.
You will also notice the NWS boys look a bit crazy in this pic as well.
Beautiful work as always though.
The tagline for the company was pure fabrication.

I do note now swingarms are supposedly designed to have a certain amount of lateral flex to limit the chances of a highside and improve feel.

[Grumph]

Fitz Egli and terry Prince - whose idea that frame was anyway - always had strange ideas on geometry. Terry got into frame building doing sprint frames so straight line stability was high priority....One race test of an Egli I've got describes the footrest placement as a hamstring stretching exercise. Whatever fits the builder I suppose.

I'd argue that a fexible arm actually makes a bike more prone to highside...until they redesigned it the Britten arm was very flexible.
After so many years, Andrew or one of the others may be prepared to go public on what we regularly saw when they tested at Ruapuna.
The only thing that saved innumerable highsides was the ability to keep the rear spinning...if the rider was brave enough.

[husaberg]

Fitz Egli and terry Prince - whose idea that frame was anyway - always had strange ideas on geometry. Terry got into frame building doing sprint frames so straight line stability was high priority....One race test of an Egli I've got describes the footrest placement as a hamstring stretching exercise. Whatever fits the builder I suppose.

I'd argue that a fexible arm actually makes a bike more prone to highside...until they redesigned it the Britten arm was very flexible.
After so many years, Andrew or one of the others may be prepared to go public on what we regularly saw when they tested at Ruapuna.
The only thing that saved innumerable highsides was the ability to keep the rear spinning...if the rider was brave enough.


Not a flexible arm in itself but a small amount of only lateral flex. The idea as i understand it is to both be able to feel the limit and absorb some of the force rather than have it break fee on the limit and then slide and catch which is the start of most classic highsides.
I am not saying they dont make them strong what i am saying is what i understand they don't try to achieve ultimate rigidly against sideways force.Like they did in the 90's.
All the alloy MX frames are also designed with flex in them as well for a less rigid feel from what i understand as well.
After riding a 97 CR250 framed bike i can understand the MX bit. Every bike subsequent to this model has been progressively pared done for more flex.
Although this saves weight and helps the suspension work better no doubt as well.

[Brian d marge]

Not a flexible arm in itself but a small amount of only lateral flex. The idea as i understand it is to both be able to feel the limit and absorb some of the force rather than have it break fee on the limit and then slide and catch which is the start of most classic highsides.
I am not saying they dont make them strong what i am saying is what i understand they don't try to achieve ultimate rigidly against sideways force.Like they did in the 90's.
All the alloy MX frames are also designed with flex in them as well for a less rigid feel from what i understand as well.
After riding a 97 CR250 framed bike i can understand the MX bit. Every bike subsequent to this model has been progressively pared done for more flex.
Although this saves weight and helps the suspension work better no doubt as well.

The 91 Cr was probably the best frame , was a goodun that one, not so sure about the latest crop...anyway Hysterisis ( no Im not hitting spell check , knackered brain aint working and its beer time ) but I cant remember what the britain had , Carbon Fibre swing arm ? frame , headstock , completley different hyterisis pattern to steel ( a wonderful product may I say ,,,3 cheers for steel hip hip !!!) I do believe the ducati is sharing the similar problem.

In an earlier post it was said that by winding up the rear? damping , the front end chatter dissappeared , would like to follow this up , what was the cause ? My feeling damping was masking another fundemental problem ?

Stephen

[husaberg]

The 91 Cr was probably the best frame , was a goodun that one, not so sure about the latest crop...anyway Hysterisis ( no Im not hitting spell check , knackered brain aint working and its beer time ) but I cant remember what the britain had , Carbon Fibre swing arm ? frame , headstock , completley different hyterisis pattern to steel ( a wonderful product may I say ,,,3 cheers for steel hip hip !!!) I do believe the ducati is sharing the similar problem.

In an earlier post it was said that by winding up the rear? damping , the front end chatter dissappeared , would like to follow this up , what was the cause ? My feeling damping was masking another fundemental problem ?

Stephen

Yeah McGrath allegedly only used one model frame (91 I think) Honda allegedly used to dress up the old models he so preferred to look like the latest current model. whether it is a urban myth or maybe he was superstitious i don't know. Certainly no one can argue with his results and while he was winning i guess they would give him what he wanted.
But the story goes he left when the alloy frame came along because they couldn't get away with it anymore and hated the alloy frame no doubt he was offered a lot of money as well to leave Honda.
Could be total crap but it is an interesting story nevertheless.

Aluminum,steel and Carbon fibre as well as titanium all have very different properties and the design of the frame does not readily translate to the other. As BSA found out to their peril no mater how much money they threw at it.

I seem to remember the Carbon frame may have been the cause of some electronics issues on the Britten as well with the ignition talking to the ECU and other electronics.
Sure was and still is pretty though.

[Brian d marge]

Yeah McGrath allegedly only used one model frame (91 I think) Honda allegedly used to dress up the old models he so preferred to look like the latest current model. whether it is a urban myth or maybe he was superstitious i don't know. Certainly no one can argue with his results and while he was winning i guess they would give him what he wanted.
But the story goes he left when the alloy frame came along because they couldn't get away with it anymore and hated the alloy frame no doubt he was offered a lot of money as well to leave Honda.
Could be total crap but it is an interesting story nevertheless.

Aluminum,steel and Carbon fibre as well as titanium all have very different properties and the design of the frame does not readily translate to the other. As BSA found out to their peril no mater how much money they threw at it.

I seem to remember the Carbon frame may have been the cause of some electronics issues on the Britten as well with the ignition talking to the ECU and other electronics.
Sure was and still is pretty though.

I can sort off confirm the mcgrath storty , have it from 2 separate honda sources .... ( but not from the horses mouth) oh and that Access card frame , from bsa , ( access your flexible friend ) nice try , but different materials need a different design approach , still its how we learn , by cocking up ,,,,,

Honda have made some howlers,

Ducati is in the middle of one ( stoner said "stiffer" , nice try but ...the Italian entry , "pas de points")

Stephen

Ps , you can squash thing and stretch things , but they bounce back when you bend, em . except silly putty , which is ... silly

[Grumph]

The 91 Cr was probably the best frame , was a goodun that one, not so sure about the latest crop...anyway Hysterisis ( no Im not hitting spell check , knackered brain aint working and its beer time ) but I cant remember what the britain had , Carbon Fibre swing arm ? frame , headstock , completley different hyterisis pattern to steel ( a wonderful product may I say ,,,3 cheers for steel hip hip !!!) I do believe the ducati is sharing the similar problem.

In an earlier post it was said that by winding up the rear? damping , the front end chatter dissappeared , would like to follow this up , what was the cause ? My feeling damping was masking another fundemental problem ?

Stephen

The Britten arm was a foam filled carbon fibre shell. Fairly late in the piece Murray redesigned it as they'd picked from pictures that it was flexing more than they'd thought. I'd suspect that if they'd had an experienced conventonal suspension guru on tap quite a lot of their problems could have been solved earlier.

The front end chatter problem referred to was just the opposite to your memory....specific to spine frame Aermacchis with the motor rotating backwards - too much spring or compression damping at the rear causes front end patter. Read a track test of Dick Linton's bike by Crashcart who found exactly the same thing - I just laughed and said...been there.

[F5 Dave]

27.5 degrees according to the blub for faster steering response. than std.
. . .
Put tassles on it, that's a cruiser.

[Brian d marge]

The front end chatter problem referred to was just the opposite to your memory....specific to spine frame Aermacchis with the motor rotating backwards - too much spring or compression damping at the rear causes front end patter. Read a track test of Dick Linton's bike by Crashcart who found exactly the same thing - I just laughed and said...been there.

my memory is crap at the best of times
no , the question I was asking is WHY, was the suspension " jacking " up ie not returning fully in operation, moving bike cog Back a bit
add a reverse engine, , less weight on the front, prone to patter?
just curious....
stephen

[Grumph]

I can only make guesses as to why this particular layout is prone to this problem.

Most if not quite all macchi singles use Ceriani forks - the 35mm standard spring is quite light - don't have precise figures sorry.
Given that most twin shocks as bought have spring and damping rates appropriate to somewhat heavier bikes it's not surprising we see mismatches front/rear....

"backwards" engines - Surtees who rode nearly everything reckoned they should have the shortest possible wheelbase so as to compensate for the lack of torque - induced front end weight transfer....that was his theory for what it's worth...
Most Macchis are around 52 - 53in and it's harder to get them shorter.

[Ocean1]

I'd suspect that if they'd had an experienced conventonal suspension guru on tap quite a lot of their problems could have been solved earlier.

But would they have ended up using conventional suspension?

Dude, someone's got to make the mistakes, otherwise we'd never find the non-intuitive solutions you don’t get using iterative development processes.

[husaberg]

I can only make guesses as to why this particular layout is prone to this problem.

Most if not quite all macchi singles use Ceriani forks - the 35mm standard spring is quite light - don't have precise figures sorry.
Given that most twin shocks as bought have spring and damping rates appropriate to somewhat heavier bikes it's not surprising we see mismatches front/rear....

"backwards" engines - Surtees who rode nearly everything reckoned they should have the shortest possible wheelbase so as to compensate for the lack of torque - induced front end weight transfer....that was his theory for what it's worth...
Most Macchis are around 52 - 53in and it's harder to get them shorter.

I had a quick look for the front spring rates for a machi couldn't find them in any articles plenty about rear.
I did not Cathcart said the triangular Dunlops were a help on the island as they were springy allowing the bikes to run relatively harder spring rates with an acceptable ride comfort than they would have otherwise.

Re Daves bit yes they do have a lazy head angle but not really chopper like. Imagine if they had modern geometry with the old skinny tires and inefficient suspension. The old bikes weren't necessarily crap they were limited by the suspension and tire technology of the time.
Remember too although a big lump heavy the Vincent engine i hazard a guess is a bit narrower than a lot of modern engines as well.

I also note the racing Rocket Threes and Tridents. (The real Rob North/Hele works ones) head angle was 28 degrees. Well it was, after they fixed the first batches made wrong anyway.
The Triumph Bonneville was mostly around 28 also and the famed Featherbed was well depending who you talk too around the same.
Opinions differ but Sprayson says 27.5. The Commando arround the same as well. I bet they all had shorter wheel bases though.
The bevel Ducatis would have had far shower steering head i hazard a guess.
If it makes you feel better all the modern Egli Replica's have more modern steering geometry but they also have more modern tires and suspension.

For Brian the funniest Honda story i have read is what Gardner swears happened (he was there) that made them finally realise the upside down bike was a piece of crap and that they were on the wrong trail pushing the center of gravity down and down. Now that's a funny story.

I have a story which says each ti frame made fir BSA cost 3000 pounds they ordered 20 so what did 3000 pounds buy in 1966
Well heres a clue the average price of a UK house in 1966 was 3800 pound.So that one dear frame let alone twenty of them and they didn't even generally last a race meeting.

Below the finished bike one of the few Egli's I have seen with a tank that doesn't look awful.

Here is a link to a more modern Egli like Vincent replica in Stainless steel.
http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=46896

[Grumph]

But would they have ended up using conventional suspension?

Dude, someone's got to make the mistakes, otherwise we'd never find the non-intuitive solutions you don’t get using iterative development processes.

I'm talking specifically the rear end....did you hear the one where andrew wasn't available for testing but Holden was ? Robert only did a couple of laps and came in saying "the shock's fucked" .....but Andrew was going well on it just the other day !!!
Yep, it was fucked, no one noticed, and Andrew just rode around it....The guys would be the first to admit they weren't suspension technicians.

Which raises the frame builders nightmare....can you trust rider feedback ?

[husaberg]

I'm talking specifically the rear end....did you hear the one where andrew wasn't available for testing but Holden was ? Robert only did a couple of laps and came in saying "the shock's fucked" .....but Andrew was going well on it just the other day !!!
Yep, it was fucked, no one noticed, and Andrew just rode around it....The guys would be the first to admit they weren't suspension technicians.

Which raises the frame builders nightmare....can you trust rider feedback ?

Not always, but you can trust the stopwatch and at the end of the day,the rider has too ride the thing.
Did you read the NSR500 development story i posted on the ESE thread?Click the arrow after the Husaberg.



Cathcarts Story of the evolution of the NSR500
The most successful GP engine in History?

then this one

the first 3 pages



Bellow some 90's GP stuff

And this one
Then compare it to Cagiva it is certainly a joint effort. (will post later.)
It seems if Kockinski used to spend all practice changing trail and head angles only to end up going back to where they started. Having said that Cagiva used to change every thing every year on the bike anyway. Where as Doohan knew what he liked they built generally after a while what he liked.So they changed little "No need to build a new frame just cause its got a few more Hp every year" so he then got to ride the thing alot.
An overlooked bit there time on a bike.
Practice and familiarity would make a big difference to assessing suspension and other setting modifications

On the subject of the Britten the engine character has a lot to do with handling i wonderhow many handling quirks disappeared with the introduction of the slipper clutch.I can imagine a lot of chatter on over-run without one.

[Brian d marge]

But would they have ended up using conventional suspension?

Dude, someone's got to make the mistakes, otherwise we'd never find the non-intuitive solutions you don’t get using iterative development processes.

4th time.,,, becoming a habit.
the more mistakes the more you learn, just got to minimize the cost

friend of mine used to use the floatation baths in bromely chch ( the settling ponds to u and me)
he would drive past and throw his days experience in to the ponds, if it floated it was a keeper

stephen
ya can't beat the floatation test

[husaberg]

There are a couple of good ideas here.
I especially like the movable seat.
Why? because the rider would have to be the biggest influence on on the bikes weight distribution.
The other one is the homemade QD fairing mounts.
The coiling of the wiring is a novel idea i had never heard of either.

[Grumph]

I'm always dubious about adjustable seats - it's the very last thing you want to have move when you're racing. Build it to suit the rider and leave it fixed IMO. To be thorough if you put an adjustable seat on, everything else should be movable too - handlebars and pegs included.

the fairing mount is a tad complicated. I use a two bolt fixing to the fairing with a rectangular plate bronzed to a short tube. A crosstube attatched to the frame goes inside these and the whole is held together with an R clip on each side of the bike. Just mount everything up and drill through the tubes in place for the R clip holes. Two bolt fixing to the fairing spreads the load better IMO.

[husaberg]

I'm always dubious about adjustable seats - it's the very last thing you want to have move when you're racing. Build it to suit the rider and leave it fixed IMO. To be thorough if you put an adjustable seat on, everything else should be movable too - handlebars and pegs included.

the fairing mount is a tad complicated. I use a two bolt fixing to the fairing with a rectangular plate bronzed to a short tube. A crosstube attatched to the frame goes inside these and the whole is held together with an R clip on each side of the bike. Just mount everything up and drill through the tubes in place for the R clip holes. Two bolt fixing to the fairing spreads the load better IMO.

A tad yes (Fairing set up) but i still like it. Plus it is simplier than it looks and good antivibe quailties as well as speading the load.I like ag pins as well.
I can't really picture yours though maybe a picture would heip me.....er... picture it......

Agreed no one wants a flopping seat or sub frame either, but The seat set up is the sturdiest adjustable one i have seen.
The footrest i had covered but whoops in another thread.
Micks set up I like for its simplicity. Pics below.
The handle bars are no problem of course.

Seen this today as well for the diesel bucketeers

Right here's the finished design for the rearset/ footpeg position adjuster plates.

Any productive ideas to change the design are welcomed before i make a batch next week.

See the pics for a better explanation than i can type. but basically you get an adjuster plate the two mounting bolts and 2 linkage rod extensions to allow for the setting you choose to run with.

I can also make up custom length linkage rods and will be making a batch of std length ones as i know they always get bent/ broken.

The plate gives basically 6 options for alternate postions from std in incraments of 20mm. (either 20mm back or 20mm up or 40mm back or 40mm up etc).


They weigh in at a little more than i would have liked at 200g with all the fitting components included but i fear that if i waste any more fom the design it may become too weak and fail too prematurely, altho if requested i can try and waste more out to bring weight down but i doubt it would be much, 50g max.


Give me an indication on what price you would put on these per side. The pics are of the last prototype and the finished design will have a better finish but i ran out of materials to do another proper run to display. (Materials are on their way next week).

The other side would be "as this side" and would be supplied without the linkage rod adaptors. I plan to make all components available seperatley to make for economic repair if required.

Cheers,
your feedback is much appreciated
Olly

[husaberg]

Yes it can work but not if you just use the same design as steel.

BSA would have again won the world Champs if only they had not been "helped" by management.
They were doing ok without them.

There are more thorough accounts of the bike but i do like the story esp the last bit from a schoolkid. Kids say the darndest things.

The other bit suggests Suzuki's race department with the racing waterbus never read the memo.

[F5 Dave]

I do like Kevin Cameron's writing style. Just finishing re-reading his TDC books which are a 'best of' rollicking history read. Find 'em on-line & buy them (1&2).

[husaberg]

I do like Kevin Cameron's writing style. Just finishing re-reading his TDC books which are a 'best of' rollicking history read. Find 'em on-line & buy them (1&2).

Never seen the book though. His ambling style is great. Jenning's plus a few other Yanks are also among my favorites.

Here is an article posted, if for no other reason, than it has more pictures of a beautiful NWS frame.

[husaberg]

It is rather ironic that, the dude would build this bike when, he could have just used a Blade or Baby blade chassis.
Oh well it wouldn't have been as much fun i guess.
It is even crueler irony that it took Honda another 4 years or so to figure out people wanted an alloy framed 600.

[richban]

Hello Bike builders. I am fitting my FXR engine in an NSR MC21. At the moment I am getting vibration through the seat of the FXR with the worked engine I have. None through the bars so not much of a big deal.

My thought is that with the stiffness of the Ali frame I might encounter more vibration. Not good for any welds or my ass and hands. So I want to rubber mount the engine. I can get hold of a book with lots of rubber / steel type bushes that I was going to press into the ali spars that I am making to hold the engine. A picture would be better I know. Long sorry short. What is a good way to rubber mount an engine?

TA

[Grumph]

i'd argue that it's just as likely perceived vibration would be reduced in the alloy frame...Alloy is somewhat less prone to resonances due to the thicker section material used.
rubber mounting is difficult to do well - torque reactions to chain pull have to be accomodated.
i'd try it solid mount first.

[richban]

i'd argue that it's just as likely perceived vibration would be reduced in the alloy frame...Alloy is somewhat less prone to resonances due to the thicker section material used.
rubber mounting is difficult to do well - torque reactions to chain pull have to be accomodated.
i'd try it solid mount first.

Interesting and very helpful. Well solid will be a hell of a lot easier. I should be able to bolt it in with no welding. If I did need to weld a new mount any major issue's to look out for. (the welding would be done buy a pro). 25kg engine with about the same hp.

[husaberg]

Interesting and very helpful. Well solid will be a hell of a lot easier. I should be able to bolt it in with no welding. If I did need to weld a new mount any major issue's to look out for. (the welding would be done buy a pro). 25kg engine with about the same hp.

The RS125 engine was rubber mounted (NF4 from memory I guess they junked it with the balance shafted NX4). Not sure about the RS250 and NSR250's.
They allegedly don't last that well.(The Rubbers)

No techno explanation but the alloy frames don't seem to damp out the vibes as well My CR500AF is a case in point.
Maybe it requires a different balance factor. I don't know, but it certainly vibes more than a std framed one.

The other thing with rubber mounting the engine is, all the exhaust etc will have to accommodate the engine movement as well.

Amazing how different head steady's can affect the effects of vibes though. Whats your plans there? (is the FXR mounted as a stessed member std likely is i guess so moot)

Loved the BOB footage BTW. Mid race stuff esp was excellent. Was that F5Dave you passed like he was standing still:bleh:

[richban]

Amazing how different head steady's affect the vibes though Whats your plans there?

Loved thre BOB footage BTW mid rsnce stuff was excellent was that Dave you passed like he was standing still:bleh:


(head steady's) who's on the what now? Do you mean steering damper? Well the engine that has the balance shaft still is a little smoother but the one without does vibrate a little. I will sold mount it to start with and see what happens. If it vibrates bad I will try rubber mounting. I hate vibration, it can really put you off the fun stuff.

Well I did catch Dave at the end of the race to put a lap on him. But I am sure he wasn't standing still. I like the hoogie vid as well shows my little crash rather well. This year I might need to get fit. Just completing BOB is becoming rather hard.

[Kickaha]

Just completing BOB is becoming rather hard.


If you ride slower you don't have to concentrate as hard and it is a bit easier, haven't seen the results from BOB were they ever posted up anywhere?

Anyway I rode Brens TZR/FXR in the FXR cup a few years back,after the Timaru rounds we found a partially broken front engine mount so I took it off and got it welded it up

The next round was Ruapuna and with the only change being the front mount fixed it vibrated like a bastard, bad enough that my hands went numb/pins and needles
I made a pretty basic rubber mount just for the head mount which made it better but it still wasn't great

I think that motor was minus balance shaft

[husaberg]

(head steady's) who's on the what now? Do you mean steering damper? Well the engine that has the balance shaft still is a little smoother but the one without does vibrate a little. I will sold mount it to start with and see what happens. If it vibrates bad I will try rubber mounting. I hate vibration, it can really put you off the fun stuff.

Well I did catch Dave at the end of the race to put a lap on him. But I am sure he wasn't standing still. I like the hoogie vid as well shows my little crash rather well. This year I might need to get fit. Just completing BOB is becoming rather hard.

Head steady or head stay is what links the cylinder head to the frame. A conventional stressed engine doesn't have one. but they are real not a steering damper oh the young
But how the top engine mount is located can have a surprising effect on engine vibes.
This mainly applies to cradle frames (or frames with cradles) of course .
Are you were going to fabricate a cradle.Hense the no weld idea.


256401
http://p1.bikepics.com/2011\09\19\bikepics-2274763-full.jpg


(http://p1.bikepics.com/2011\09\19\bikepics-2274763-full.jpg)

[richban]

The next round was Ruapuna and with the only change being the front mount fixed it vibrated like a bastard, bad enough that my hands went numb/pins and needles
I made a pretty basic rubber mount just for the head mount which made it better but it still wasn't great

I think that motor was minus balance shaft

Yeah I have seen and ridden a few bikes with the shaft pulled out. Not so good. My crank is supposed to be balance to compensate for that. It doesn't vibrate near as much as others. Nothing through the hands and feet. It might not be an issue.

[richban]

Head steay or stay a conventioional stessed engine doesn't have one but they are real not a steering damper oh the young

Young at 40 for sure. With all the wisdom you have, you must be ancient. I must say your magazine collection must be an impressive site. Some real gold in there.

[husaberg]

Young at 40 for sure. With all the wisdom you have, you must be ancient. I must say your magazine collection must be an impressive site. Some real gold in there.

You beat me with the editing there i took that out. PS put the young back in because gee 40 that's real old, hows your arthritis?:rolleyes:
but have a look in a minute at a head steady.

On some of the old bike they were (allegedly) a necessity for good handling as well .

PS i am 38 my collection is nothing on my old mans.
Not must wisdom here just regurgitation still learning but a good memory for useless facts.where-as Grumph is a wise one.
Much like Yoda only taller with more swearing.

[Brian d marge]

Why , are my old tutors words ringing in my head when I read all this , Free-body, free-body,,free-body diagram, even those PB mag , more money than sense imho. ( those early CBRS were 85 Bhp , possibly HP cant remember now ) , he spent HOW MUCH , even then that was a lot .

As for vibration in frames , the engine and frame you could consider a "package" if you change the design , you most likely will have to change the balance factor or flywheel(s) weight ( clutch is also a flywheel)

From memory you have to dissapate the enerfy as quickly as possible , before it gets to the points of contact. You can do this by , increasing the mass , density , load path or by reducing the energy so slapping a engine that was desiged for a steel frame into an alloy frame will vibrate more untill you " bleed off " some of that energy , by either , rebalancing it ( sorry dont know off head which way heavier or lighter , have a gut feeling it might be heavier in order for the flywheel to store energy ,,someone can coeerect me ) or by modifying the engine mounts

For you me and the rest, steel is a lovely material , except that Those twin spar frames alloy frame , an old mod ( still done know???) was to house the fuel inside , thus negating the need for a gas tank in short races,

Stephen

The above is from memory , a old and very much abused one, so ......there ! , now off to drink beer and watch , the Edwardian farm , a great tv series!!1

[Grumph]

If I was a wise one I'd have money.....

Head steadies are a whole strange subject...in theory you can use the motor to triangulate the frame using lower mounts and a head mount. in days of old when motors were mounted in plates bolted into the frame this could make quite a difference, both to vibes and to frame stiffness. As frames have got stiffer and motors have been mounted more directly into them - frequently now, no plates at all - the need for head steadies has reduced. In some cases now it can actually increase the perceived vibration.
Do you know what the balance factor is on your FXR without the balance shaft ? i seem to remember talking to your bro at the BOB about it - I've rebalanced a few cranks.....and he knew that.

[richban]

If I was a wise one I'd have money.....
Do you know what the balance factor is on your FXR without the balance shaft ? i seem to remember talking to your bro at the BOB about it - I've rebalanced a few cranks.....and he knew that.


Don't know the balance factor. But can find out. Interesting stuff. I think it will be easy enough to get it mounted solid and see what happens. I am hoping the NSR will all be lighter and better than the FXR when complete. But a part of me thinks it will take a lot of development to get as good as the FXR is now. I have the FXR handling quite well now but the front end flex is quite substantial. It dose give a lot of feedback from the front but I am having trouble getting heat into the front tyre. Could the flex have anything to do with that? Or just bad suspension setup? Or pressure or all of the above.

[Bert]

..... I have the FXR handling quite well now but the front end flex is quite substantial. It dose give a lot of feedback from the front but I am having trouble getting heat into the front tyre. Could the flex have anything to do with that? Or just bad suspension setup? Or pressure or all of the above.

could be the 100kgs sitting on top of it :bleh:

The reality is the the FXR was never made for the kind of abuse that you lot are giving them (in saying that it is a lot better than most); the NSR should feel amazing from the start. get back to your shed and get it finished for the GP.

[Moooools]

I have mounted 3 engines into aluminium frames now, always two lower rear mounts and a head steady to the back of the head, from a crossmember added across the frame.
Never had any issue with vibration. Having said that they were all untouched balancing wise.

I plan to do the same thing with project NSR/project Rich is doing it so I should too.

My TZR Chassis (that my brother is stealing off me) was very tall, and was nice as around Kaitoke.
But around Mt Welly it is a bit of a handful especially when it comes to the bumpy sections. The plan with the NSR will be to get the centre of gravity lower along with the seating position to get a bit more feel for what the bike is doing. The TZR feels a bit distant.

So the plan is for an MC21 Frame and swing arm with an CBR600F3 shock (or and MC21sp shock if I can find one) with my ZXR front end and my RS125 wheels. Just need a shock and seat unit to start the build.

All in good time. No really rush just yet. I might even let you finish first Rich.

[Brian d marge]

If I was a wise one I'd have money.....

Head steadies are a whole strange subject...in theory you can use the motor to triangulate the frame using lower mounts and a head mount. in days of old when motors were mounted in plates bolted into the frame this could make quite a difference, both to vibes and to frame stiffness. As frames have got stiffer and motors have been mounted more directly into them - frequently now, no plates at all - the need for head steadies has reduced. In some cases now it can actually increase the perceived vibration.
Do you know what the balance factor is on your FXR without the balance shaft ? i seem to remember talking to your bro at the BOB about it - I've rebalanced a few cranks.....and he knew that.

I'm I on every body's ignore list , or one can be bothered reading or is this a select club?
think about the manufacturing process and a head steady , if you can eliminate it .....it will?? ?

also , chucking a small motor designed to a large frame will do what?

back to Edwardian garden .....

Stephen

[husaberg]

I'm I on every body's ignore list , or one can be bothered reading or is this a select club?

I enjoy your posts

think about the manufacturing process and a head steady , if you can eliminate it .....it will?? ?

simplify it then redesign it to elininate it but some of the motors used for buckets were not designed for hanging from thier heads or designed with more attachment points.


also , chucking a small motor designed to a large frame will do what?
F-ing up the weight distribution. Amongst other things is possible

[Rick 52]

I enjoy your posts
This is a great thread , lots of good info ..all interesting stuff cheers fellas !

[Grumph]

I'm I on every body's ignore list , or one can be bothered reading or is this a select club?
think about the manufacturing process and a head steady , if you can eliminate it .....it will?? ?

also , chucking a small motor designed to a large frame will do what?

back to Edwardian garden .....

Stephen

Stephen.....you've gone a bit too inscrutable...spell out exactly what you're getting at please. Motor swapping from one frame type to another has been done since the Hildebrand and Wolfmuller first came on the market. The practicalities of it mean that until it's done and tested the average Joe won't know if the vibes are better or worse until he tries it. If you have access to massive computer capacity and the time by all means simulate it for us.....in the meantime, adjusting the balance factor until the PERCEIVED vibration is acceptable works for me....
Tying a motor in to a frame with a larger than normal number of mounts will all else being equal raise the resonant frequency of the whole thing...whether this actually helps reduce perceived vibration or the opposite depends on many things, most of which the builder can't change...One guy here with a BSA twin read some theory on the net and turned out with what looked like an Americas Cup keel on the underside of his motor - reckoned it was smoother....but he would say that wouldn't he.

[richban]

Tying a motor in to a frame with a larger than normal number of mounts will all else being equal raise the resonant frequency of the whole thing...

OK best guess. I have 2 choices with the front head mount. Front or rear of the head. Bigger triangle or Smaller triangle? I was thinking bigger and using the exhaust side mount figuring bigger triangle will distribute any vibe over greater area. But hey I have know clue really. Rear mount could come straight from the frame cross member and would be a little easier. Thinking out loud now. Maybe the small mounting config might be better as the motor its self might absorb more vibration. Not sure but we will see. I will post some pic's next week when I start on the mounts. I am sure the length of the mounts and design will make a big difference. Over thinking maybe.

[Moooools]

OK best guess. I have 2 choices with the front head mount. Front or rear of the head. Bigger triangle or Smaller triangle? I was thinking bigger and using the exhaust side mount figuring bigger triangle will distribute any vibe over greater area. But hey I have know clue really. Rear mount could come straight from the frame cross member and would be a little easier. Thinking out loud now. Maybe the small mounting config might be better as the motor its self might absorb more vibration. Not sure but we will see. I will post some pic's next week when I start on the mounts. I am sure the length of the mounts and design will make a big difference. Over thinking maybe.

I like back of the head because it makes the engine easier to get in and out.
If you go for the front of the head won't the mount itself be much longer? Surely this would resonate a bit by itself quite a bit. Hard to say though.


Tying a motor in to a frame with a larger than normal number of mounts will all else being equal raise the resonant frequency of the whole thing...

Does an increase in the frequency of a wave decrease the amplitude for a given energy of wave? I can't remember if that is right or not.
If it is then a higher number of mounts would be preferable for the amplitude of resonance (How much you actually feel)

[Grumph]

Does an increase in the frequency of a wave decrease the amplitude for a given energy of wave? I can't remember if that is right or not.
If it is then a higher number of mounts would be preferable for the amplitude of resonance (How much you actually feel)

Generally speaking the higher frequency vibes are more readily damped out by the mass of the chassis...but it doesn't always follow as some frame parts may then have their own sympathetic resonance. those who have raced two stroke twins will know this one.
It really is suck it and see at this level. factories of course have better resources hence quicker solutions.
Rich - I'd be tempted to take the top mount to the largest/nearest mass available - which is probably the steering head area.

[F5 Dave]

I'd also suggest upon taking mounts, to take the mounts & the rest of the bike to that chap I hear of who lives out in the Akatas. As I think Max would have to agree.


Rich what you may want to consider is getting some of these rubber mounts & make sure the solid mounts are big enough to simply bore them out to fit them if it vibrates like a marital aid. The RG50 ones are good to look at (sort of a T section with steel washer & tube on the inside for the bolt) & I've used them on my MB engine, but had to weld tube to replace the skinny mounts on the engine. I've decided to do the same again with my next cases, as they need welding anyway, but considered putting them in the frame.

[F5 Dave]

. . .
Loved the BOB footage BTW. Mid race stuff esp was excellent. Was that F5Dave you passed like he was standing still:bleh:

Yes that was me & he did pass me like I was still. You only have to be a bit over a second slower a lap in a 55min race where the laps take about a min to get lapped. By way of excuse the bike was slapped together & barely putting out 18hp at the time. 16 with a dobble of 18.



If you ride slower you don't have to concentrate as hard and it is a bit easier, haven't seen the results from BOB were they ever posted up anywhere?

Meh, some Hoogies 1st & 2nd. Rich 3rd & me 4th.

And some other people.

[Moooools]

I'd also suggest upon taking mounts, to take the mounts & the rest of the bike to that chap I hear of who lives out in the Akatas. As I think Max would have to agree.


Oh yeah he has it nailed. I actually did 4 out of 6 mounts on dad's bike but the rest was left to the one they call.... Damon.
Definitely knows his shit. I hear he has been doing it for quite some time. (Working on bikes; not taking shits)

[husaberg]

Yes that was me & he did pass me like I was still. You only have to be a bit over a second slower a lap in a 55min race where the laps take about a min to get lapped. By way of excuse the bike was slapped together & barely putting out 18hp at the time. 16 with a dobble of 18.

I wasn't taking a shot just asking if it was you but it (The FXR250) was flying along nicely.



OK best guess. I have 2 choices with the front head mount. Front or rear of the head. Bigger triangle or Smaller triangle? I was thinking bigger and using the exhaust side mount figuring bigger triangle will distribute any vibe over greater area. But hey I have know clue really. Rear mount could come straight from the frame cross member and would be a little easier. Thinking out loud now. Maybe the small mounting config might be better as the motor its self might absorb more vibration. Not sure but we will see. I will post some pic's next week when I start on the mounts. I am sure the length of the mounts and design will make a big difference. Over thinking maybe.

Would you show me a pic of the top of the head STD and a pic of the std way it is mounted in a FXR150 i had a wee look and came up empty.
there was a good write up re head stays on a CR500 thread somewhere but a had a little look and can't find it.

One thing I do worry about with My build with using the MC16 frame is getting the weight far enough forward as the NSR250 lump has a lot more weight on the front end.
I have considered a few options and likely will be using an eccentric insert in the steering head but i do think there will be some issues.I hate the though of shortening and narrowing it but it might have to be done still easier than finding a cheap RS125 frame.

As Grumph said it is actually easier to start from scratch some times.

The reason fro the NSR beam frame is purely for aesthetics. MC16 is because it is the narrower and likely lighter.

[Brian d marge]

Stephen.....you've gone a bit too inscrutable...spell out exactly what you're getting at please. Motor swapping from one frame type to another has been done since the Hildebrand and Wolfmuller first came on the market. The practicalities of it mean that until it's done and tested the average Joe won't know if the vibes are better or worse until he tries it. If you have access to massive computer capacity and the time by all means simulate it for us.....in the meantime, adjusting the balance factor until the PERCEIVED vibration is acceptable works for me....
Tying a motor in to a frame with a larger than normal number of mounts will all else being equal raise the resonant frequency of the whole thing...whether this actually helps reduce perceived vibration or the opposite depends on many things, most of which the builder can't change...One guy here with a BSA twin read some theory on the net and turned out with what looked like an Americas Cup keel on the underside of his motor - reckoned it was smoother....but he would say that wouldn't he.

Sorry just seemed to me I was wasting my time replying , It may not have been a very well thought out reply , but its 90% there!
The second post was just a post to get people to think about a manufacturers view point if you can eliminate a part through design then you will save money such as on the CR where the design negates separate engine mounts.

As a good guide the art is to obtain a smooth running engine one must reduce or neutralize forces and couples in order to reduce the stresses in the engine and the supports.
For a single cylinder , a guesstimate would be

unbalanced forced due to inertial forces ( and couples) such as

MR/2r = m/s where MR is the unbalanced mass moment ,m is the balanced, ( primary?)

unbalanced forces and couples due to rotational parts , rod lengths, etc ( secondary )

I was going to expand a little more on this but I don't need to as if you have a smart phone it will have a free app which measures vibration ( its quite accurate and )

but if you look at the terms in a free undamped system fn = wn/2pi=1/2pi.(K/m)^1/2 = 1/2pi.(g/x)^1/2

where k = spring stiffness of material and m is mass , and X = displacement

So by changing the stiffness or mass or by changing the displacement changes the vibrations felt

A common mod is to fill the end of the handlebar with a heavy wieght , or something similar

Lets take the "tig craft" 450 in a 125 frame, the order of magnitude of magnitude of the forces As a guesstimate

450 = 125

MR/2r " 450" = MR/2r "125" while this isn't a correct formula ( I just want to show you can estimate the order of magnitude of the change in "vibration" )

Then what do you need to change in order to "reduce " those vibrations ( I would be looking at the engine first then Engine mount design next ie as you pointed out "a mount near a mass ")

The bucket that had a broken engine mount "lost engine Vibration energy " though changing the displacement value "X"

Hope all this makes sense, at the end of the day all I am really saying is I am amazed at how many people ( not just on here ) forget to " think twice cut once " and "paper is cheap " tI disagree with the make it bigger , suck it and see , or in my experience , all costs money and as an old boss once told me " thinking doesn't cost anything "

I was stunned how much that guy spent on that CBR , when a plan written on a bit of paper would have saved all that headache.

Just my Humble opinion,tis all ,,,,

Stephen

Ps as for a powerfull computer , you dont need one , I use CAElinux on a fairly reasonable desktop , and for when I really need grunt I use Amazons elastic cloud , as a fellow KB suggested ( thanks that person)

[koba]

One thing I do worry about with My build with using the MC16 frame is getting the weight far enough forward as the NSR250 lump has a lot more weight on the front end.
I have considered a few options and likely will be using an eccentric insert in the steering head but i do think there will be some issues.I hate the though of shortening and narrowing it but it might have to be done still easier than finding a cheap RS125 frame.

Mine (MC18/MB100) feels like it is arse-heavy. It's mitigated somewhat by positioning the rider really far forward but it still isn't perfect. I'd thought about shortening it too but it isn't worth the hassle for me at this stage.



Hope all this makes sense

No.

Not yet, that's going to take a fair bit of digestion. Maybe I'll get it eventually.

[Kickaha]

Stephen.....you've gone a bit too inscrutable...spell out exactly what you're getting at please. Motor swapping from one frame type to another has been done since the Hildebrand and Wolfmuller first came on the market.

Most people wouldn't have heard of them but you're old enough that you can probably remember them both new on the shop floor


Meh, some Hoogies 1st & 2nd. Rich 3rd & me 4th.

And some other people.

I must have been back in the "and some other people" well back I would think

[Brian d marge]

No.

Not yet, that's going to take a fair bit of digestion. Maybe I'll get it eventually.

Bugga

made sense to me

think , small stone. large lake , or big rock small puddle

Stephen

[richban]

Mine (MC18/MB100) feels like it is arse-heavy. It's mitigated somewhat by positioning the rider really far forward but it still isn't perfect. I'd thought about shortening it too but it isn't worth the hassle for me at this stage.



No.

Not yet, that's going to take a fair bit of digestion. Maybe I'll get it eventually.


What is the static weight distribution? Would be interested to know. No rider.

[husaberg]

Bugga

made sense to me

think , small stone. large lake , or big rock small puddle

Stephen

Not the point of your post, but it actually reminded me that i shouldn't go to radical on the revised geometry
As my little engined bike is going to be easier to flick around as well due to my smaller spinning things.

I agree on the thinking doesn't cost anything with one caveat. designers are generally paid by the hour:msn-wink:

I myself are guilty of spending too much time thinking not enough time actually doing.

"Procrastination the art of keeping up with yesterday."

One other but is at time vibes can be absorbed (well kind of) by filling the handle bars with expanded foam as well as mitigated with weights.

[Grumph]

OK Stephen - yes, it makes sense to me broadly...but just because there's a thread on here with one at least of the world's best 2 stroke tuners doesn't mean that the rest of the forum will or should be that standard....LOL.
Most of these guys just want to find a way to make an acceptable race bike. If they were as up to speed as yr good self, they too would be in Japan visiting HRC....Asked them yet whether they're using the Enfield floating bush bearing ? point out t's quite satisfactory in turbos up to about 150,000RPM....Might set them back a week or two.
Computing power...I don't own a cellphone and my computer might as well be powered by a hamster wheel.
Kickaha was as usual exaggerating my age but suck it and see is much faster with 40 plus years of experience....

[husaberg]

they too would be in Japan visiting HRC....Asked them yet whether they're using the Enfield floating bush bearing ? point out t's quite satisfactory in turbos up to about 150,000RPM....Might set them back a week or two.


Great stuff i was re reading the article on the us Enfeild racer the other day who thought he would improve on the design by using a ina big end the thing constantly seized the big but only on overrun i think he blamed it on cyclic variation he made up a rig to test his theory using a paint shaker.
Ducati had it sussed with the Supermono.
Who was the guy who used to have the fast Enfeilds in Cams they were ridden by a guy Kerry (Reeves?) I was always intrigued what was inside them.
I suspected a lot of Non Enfeild parts? I guess a lot of the speed may have been the rider though.


Rich mentions scales below.
I have seen a lot of differing methods mentioned to weigh bikes, but all Landcorp farms and pretty much all Asurequaily offices have scales with load bars as well as sale yards a lot of stock agents and other serious farmers.

[richban]

Well I thought I would do a little test with the scales. The FXR as it is now has exactly 50/50 weight distribution (bike only). With me on it, in a crouch it's 50/50. Siting up in the seat hands still on bars. The weight moves 5kg to the back. Not sure if this is good or bad but was interesting at the time.

[Brian d marge]

Well I thought I would do a little test with the scales. The FXR as it is now has exactly 50/50 weight distribution (bike only). With me on it, in a crouch it's 50/50. Siting up in the seat hands still on bars. The weight moves 5kg to the back. Not sure if this is good or bad but was interesting at the time.

Go here and then into freeware

its a useful program , I recommend splashing out for the software , its cheap , and works well also , Tony is very "emailable " like every time I upgrade my software and need a new license from him ,,,,

Sorry off topic a bit , but there was an old fella , passed away a few years back , raced an Enfield at Ruapuna always midfield towards the front ( which was good ) anyway when he passed away I was lucky to buy a lot of his stock , at a good price , Thank you that man

anyway The one thing I find very interesting , is that the Enfield designed in the thirties with a pencil and slide rule ( still have mine somewhere ) even today, when I check using modern techniques and the super computers, the numbers come out without an ounce of fat ! bang on

for example I was looking at the cooling , Fins , end result just enough fins to do exactly what the bike was designed to do . all done back then with pencil and paper. amazing

What I WILL buy when I go to NZ for a holiday is a better drawing board , cant really get them here cheapish ....
Carry on as you were

Stephen


and there is a crank balance calculator free, on tonys site as well

[Grumph]

The Enfield developer in ChCh was Bob Harris...one time sponsor to Dale Wylie amongst others,and a very good rider himself back in the day. From memory, Yamaha rods and big ends.....

Rich, with that weight distribution, if you can't get heat into the front, I'd try some meatier forks. The FXR forks are pretty wimpy and something a bit stiffer torsionally may help.

Can't open any link there Stephen but if it's Tony Foale, well generally you're either a fan or violently anti....I'm neutral.
A customer of mine in Adelaide where TF grew up describes him as a weird bugger hanging round the racers and getting in the way.

[koba]

What is the static weight distribution? Would be interested to know. No rider.
Let's try measure it at Tokaroa.

[richban]

Rich, with that weight distribution, if you can't get heat into the front, I'd try some meatier forks. The FXR forks are pretty wimpy and something a bit stiffer torsionally may help.



Well this should be a lot stiffer. Here are a couple of pics of the engine mocked up in the same position as it sits in the FXR frame give or take a couple of mm.

And some nice wheels to look at. Not for the bucket.

256484256485256486256487

[richban]

Let's try measure it at Tokaroa.

I'll pack the bathroom scales.

[richban]

Go here and then into freeware

Link doesn't seem to work. Hey what was the smart phone app you mentioned. I know there are a few the will tell you breaking forces and loads in corners and stuff. Almost of the option that the more I know the more I have to worry about.

[Brian d marge]

Link doesn't seem to work. Hey what was the smart phone app you mentioned. I know there are a few the will tell you breaking forces and loads in corners and stuff. Almost of the option that the more I know the more I have to worry about.

sorry
just type in Tony Foale .com
ill repair it when I finish this meeting later on today
the app is called vibrometer for android
there are some very useful apps
calculus
Mohrs circle
decibel

anyway back to the subject
back soon
stephen

[husaberg]

Well this should be a lot stiffer. Here are a couple of pics of the engine mocked up in the same position as it sits in the FXR frame give or take a couple of mm.

And some nice wheels to look at. Not for the bucket.

256484256485256486256487

Sits in there nice. Will you be able to remove the head in situ?
Not that it really maters.

It actually fills the space better than i would have thought.

[crazy man]

nice job richban should look good once finshed

[richban]

nice job richban should look good once finshed


Yeah cheers. I just chucked the frame over the 550 engine it will go in easy as. The NSR seems a good option for transplants. Lots of room. I am going to mock up some plywood engine mounts and get it proper mocked up. Just waiting on my new 15mm axels so I can get it rolling. Anyone got a spare NSR swing arm bolt? Perfect for a rear axel for the RS wheels. Also nex week will have the original sub frame. I will copy and shorten in in Ali. Once all that is sorted just the little things like gear linkage front breaks ......... the list gets longer. Good fun. Will be running the same body kit as Bert. RS250. Paint is going to be White base fluro orange graphic panels with rizzla blue pin striping.

Well thats the plan.

[Dutchee]

Yeah cheers. I just chucked the frame over the 550 engine it will go in easy as. The NSR seems a good option for transplants. Lots of room. I am going to mock up some plywood engine mounts and get it proper mocked up. Just waiting on my new 15mm axels so I can get it rolling. Anyone got a spare NSR swing arm bolt? Perfect for a rear axel for the RS wheels. Also nex week will have the original sub frame. I will copy and shorten in in Ali. Once all that is sorted just the little things like gear linkage front breaks ......... the list gets longer. Good fun. Will be running the same body kit as Bert. RS250. Paint is going to be White base fluro orange graphic panels with rizzla blue pin striping.

Well thats the plan.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/other/auction-439270955.htm phone number there, give him a ring & see if he can help with the bolt.

[richban]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/other/auction-439270955.htm phone number there, give him a ring & see if he can help with the bolt.

Cheers for that. He's the man I got the sub frame from. Bolt I need is holding his frame together. I am calling in a favor with my bro and he is making one. Its just when he gets around to it. But he owes me big.

[Moooools]

Yeah cheers. I just chucked the frame over the 550 engine it will go in easy as. The NSR seems a good option for transplants. Lots of room. I am going to mock up some plywood engine mounts and get it proper mocked up. Just waiting on my new 15mm axels so I can get it rolling. Anyone got a spare NSR swing arm bolt? Perfect for a rear axel for the RS wheels. Also nex week will have the original sub frame. I will copy and shorten in in Ali. Once all that is sorted just the little things like gear linkage front breaks ......... the list gets longer. Good fun. Will be running the same body kit as Bert. RS250. Paint is going to be White base fluro orange graphic panels with rizzla blue pin striping.

Well thats the plan.

Pffft you and your complex build plans.
I was thinking about buying the kit from Tyga. Not a bad price, especially the seat unit and sub frame to suit. Looks nice as too.
They make a nice guard for my ZXR forks too. Don't know about running a full fairing. Feel like I might smash it up a bit too often.

http://tyga-performance.com/site/index.php?cPath=230_565_809&osCsid=7a0e471f66b429cd160f24a5e02404dc

I am still a fair way off getting my project properly underway.

[koba]

I was thinking about buying the kit from Tyga. Not a bad price, especially the seat unit and sub frame to suit.

Chequebookracer.

[husaberg]

Pffft you and your complex build plans.
I was thinking about buying the kit from Tyga. Not a bad price, especially the seat unit and sub frame to suit. Looks nice as too.
They make a nice guard for my ZXR forks too. Don't know about running a full fairing. Feel like I might smash it up a bit too often.

http://tyga-performance.com/site/index.php?cPath=230_565_809&osCsid=7a0e471f66b429cd160f24a5e02404dc

I am still a fair way off getting my project properly underway.

I brought a complete r1 seat and fairing for $1
best of all he was only 2kms way got to love no res auctions. I felt a little guilty and gave him $2 cause i am all heart.:bleh:

[Grumph]

Cheers for that. He's the man I got the sub frame from. Bolt I need is holding his frame together. I am calling in a favor with my bro and he is making one. Its just when he gets around to it. But he owes me big.

Just go to your local bike wrecker and ask to have a ferret through the box of axles please....I buy a batch of 15mm axles about every 18 months or so for stock in various lengths as i use them for swingarm pivots and rear axles. Most use a 14X1.5 thread and shortening/rethreading is simple.
From experience, if you leave it to your bro, you'll still be waiting next year - he's a busy man you know....

[richban]

Pffft you and your complex build plans.
I was thinking about buying the kit from Tyga. Not a bad price, especially the seat unit and sub frame to suit. Looks nice as too.
They make a nice guard for my ZXR forks too. Don't know about running a full fairing. Feel like I might smash it up a bit too often.

http://tyga-performance.com/site/index.php?cPath=230_565_809&osCsid=7a0e471f66b429cd160f24a5e02404dc

I am still a fair way off getting my project properly underway.


Yeah nah 2 expensive and heavy. Full fairing only for the big jobs.

[richban]

Just go to your local bike wrecker and ask to have a ferret through the box of axles please....I buy a batch of 15mm axles about every 18 months or so for stock in various lengths as i use them for swingarm pivots and rear axles. Most use a 14X1.5 thread and shortening/rethreading is simple.
From experience, if you leave it to your bro, you'll still be waiting next year - he's a busy man you know....


Well I will be up north next week so will pay a visit to bike busters. The good thing about the NSR swing arm bolt is it is exactly the same length, its drilled and threaded all you need to do is weld a fat washer on the end.

[andrew a]

I brought a complete r1 seat and fairing for $1
best of all he was only 2kms way got to love no res auctions. I felt a little guilty and gave him $2 cause i am all heart.:bleh:


Thats funny. $2.oo Thats double the price!

[richban]

he's a busy man you know....

Funny got the call this morning. 2 new axels rifle drilled and machined to perfection will be with me Tuesday. Obviously F4 projects take priority over boring old formula 5000 engines. Chur Bro.

[Grumph]

Funny got the call this morning. 2 new axels rifle drilled and machined to perfection will be with me Tuesday. Obviously F4 projects take priority over boring old formula 5000 engines. Chur Bro.

Obviously done in the interval between supplying a finished motor and repairing a broken one....today's practise day.
So next time I go in for a cam I have to ask if it will be put back behind your work....

[F5 Dave]

Try get related, but uncertain of the paperwork involved.

[Grumph]

Try get related, but uncertain of the paperwork involved.

Notes of large denominations will be required....

[richban]

Obviously done in the interval between supplying a finished motor and repairing a broken one....today's practise day.
So next time I go in for a cam I have to ask if it will be put back behind your work....

I think he just got a man down the road to do it. Favors called in sometimes snowball.

[husaberg]

This is a Chassis thread girls. not how to marry into the Ban family

BMW posted cause i actually think it looks cool, which is not something i have said "often" (ie Ever)
Ps have you got a much younger sister? preferably adopted.
No offense unintended:yes:


I think he just got a man down the road to do it. Favors called in sometimes snowball.

PPS This guy down the road that does "Snowball Favours " he isn't a scout master is he?

[Bert]

This is a Chassis thread girls.....

Just sitting around.:love:
sure to be more to this story soon.

[Grumph]

Krauser could never make up their minds which way to jump - after that spaceframe masterpiece they did very elegant monococques then back to space frames again....

I like the bucket of telephones in Bert's pic - I trust it's half full of water.

[Kickaha]

Krauser could never make up their minds which way to jump - after that spaceframe masterpiece they did very elegant monococques then back to space frames again....

I think they only did the Monocouques for the little GP bikes and although labeled Krauser were built by LCR and Zundapp

256574

[crazy man]

Just sitting around.:love:
sure to be more to this story soon.that must be superimposed

[husaberg]

All sorts of chassis stuff here all applicable raided the site for supercharger stuff and brake stuff.
I never looked at the chassis stuff till looking for something today for Kicka.

[/URL]http://victorylibrary.com/brit/chassis-c.htm (http://squeels%20the%20wheel%20at%2030mph%20od%20somethin g?)

[URL]http://victorylibrary.com/brit/chassis-1.htm

http://victorylibrary.com/brit/chassis-2a.htm

[husaberg]

Interestingly i read the other day that Fritz Elgi has the patent for the braced swing arm with a non linkage much like a squashed cantilever.
it appears both Honda and Yamaha pay license fees to use it.

Grumph the other day mentioned Wulfmuller and Heidebrand


Stephen.....you've gone a bit too inscrutable...spell out exactly what you're getting at please. Motor swapping from one frame type to another has been done since the Hildebrand and Wolfmuller first came on the market. The practicalities of it mean that until it's done and tested the average Joe won't know if the vibes are better or worse until he tries it. If you have access to massive computer capacity and the time by all means simulate it for us.....in the meantime, adjusting the balance factor until the PERCEIVED vibration is acceptable works for me....
Tying a motor in to a frame with a larger than normal number of mounts will all else being equal raise the resonant frequency of the whole thing...whether this actually helps reduce perceived vibration or the opposite depends on many things, most of which the builder can't change...One guy here with a BSA twin read some theory on the net and turned out with what looked like an Americas Cup keel on the underside of his motor - reckoned it was smoother....but he would say that wouldn't he.


This below has some interesting stuff on properties and design from Ken Sprayson original from Reynolds Home of 531

[Grumph]

It's too late for me to take the Rudge frame to the village blacksmith...it's alredy painted LOL.

I recommended something similar to Kerry Reeves who rode Bob Harris's Enfields...I watched him go round the 500 with an enormous pair of ring spanners tightening all the frame bolts after a practise session. Essental to make it handle he said...
I told him next time Bob had the motor out, align and true everything up and bronze all the joints including the bolts....

The materials bit is biased in favour of high tensile steel as you'd expect. For normal use incl racing, mild steel is quite satisfactory.
Kevin Cameron said it best - the yeild point of the better steels is only about 5% higher...to get any benefit you've got to crash hard enough to bend mild steel but not hard enough to bend high tensile....

[quallman1234]

this is cool, if no one has seen it...

http://www.facebook.com/pages/MJ-Works/162739597106964?sk=photos

[Brian d marge]

It's too late for me to take the Rudge frame to the village blacksmith...it's alredy painted LOL.

I recommended something similar to Kerry Reeves who rode Bob Harris's Enfields...I watched him go round the 500 with an enormous pair of ring spanners tightening all the frame bolts after a practice session. Essential to make it handle he said...
I told him next time Bob had the motor out, align and true everything up and bronze all the joints including the bolts....

The materials bit is biased in favour of high tensile steel as you'd expect. For normal use incl racing, mild steel is quite satisfactory.
Kevin Cameron said it best - the yield point of the better steels is only about 5% higher...to get any benefit you've got to crash hard enough to bend mild steel but not hard enough to bend high tensile....Sadly steel isnt in vogue any more, ( don’t tell em its actually pretty dam good !!!!)
I remember trying to make a foot peg , out of 4140 or something similar , and my tutor asking me why I was using it , cos its Strong says I ...... I got the "look"

its all about " I"

and those enfield frame were just about keeping a loose collection of bit is roughly the same area !!! fine for going to work, but that’s about all I’ve cracked one by using it in VMX ,,, the crusader frame is slightly better ,,,

Stephen

[Ivan]

some legend is building this

[crazy man]

some legend is building thiswell done its looks not to far of. what kind of engine are you putting in it?

[gav]

Saw this on FB, looks pretty cool, don't know much about it though .... except its not as big as you think at first glance, its a Honda Z50 motor.

[crazy man]

Saw this on FB, looks pretty cool, don't know much about it though .... except its not as big as you think at first glance, its a Honda Z50 motor.l like that good for a class just bigger than miney bikes like the indoor go-karts we had here in town years ago. l found a pic in a book of a guy that made a v twin out of one of though's motors . look like a small duke!

[Ivan]

well done its looks not to far of. what kind of engine are you putting in it?

a bitsa honda single haha got 2 sl125 engines 2 xr200 heads witht eh larger valves and cam out of a xr200 one head has been ported ones standered and theres a bike i know of that threw a cam chain that was at the local recycling centre im trying to get

[crazy man]

a bitsa honda single haha got 2 sl125 engines 2 xr200 heads witht eh larger valves and cam out of a xr200 one head has been ported ones standered and theres a bike i know of that threw a cam chain that was at the local recycling centre im trying to getwhen you get them going fast they blow the oil filter in the engine

[husaberg]

I am sure the older readers can remember this i don't know his last name but at the time it was super trick.
I am not sure how the the rear suspension works because it looks sideways in the pic but not mentioned in the blurb.

Some will know who Sean is I bet?:rolleyes:

[Kickaha]

I am sure the older readers can remember this i don't know his last name but at the time it was super trick.
I am not sure how the the rear suspension works because it looks sideways in the pic but not mentioned in the blurb.

Some will know who Sean is I bet?:rolleyes:

Nardo, went for a couple of rides with him back in the nineties on Ducati club runs, he did a bit of work on the flying Kiwi sidecar which set a couple of records as well

Shock was sideways and compressed from both end I think, something Yamaha had done on the OW61
http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=84hF-qoR5I8C&pg=SA8-PA2&lpg=SA8-PA2&dq=Yamaha+OW61+rear+suspension&source=bl&ots=FZx7qGMeRl&sig=QsEK7vZELqV8c2younprgDmd5Is&hl=en&sa=X&ei=I9I4T_-jGuOZiQeVuZnaAw&sqi=2&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Yamaha%20OW61%20rear%20suspension&f=false

[husaberg]

Nardo, went for a couple of rides with him back in the nineties on Ducati club runs, he did a bit of work on the flying Kiwi sidecar which set a couple of records as well

Shock was sideways and compressed from both end I think, something Yamaha had done on the OW61
http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=84hF-qoR5I8C&pg=SA8-PA2&lpg=SA8-PA2&dq=Yamaha+OW61+rear+suspension&source=bl&ots=FZx7qGMeRl&sig=QsEK7vZELqV8c2younprgDmd5Is&hl=en&sa=X&ei=I9I4T_-jGuOZiQeVuZnaAw&sqi=2&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Yamaha OW61 rear suspension&f=false

Bloody trick alright, Real hard to get the wheel base short on a Bevel so well done

[Bert]

Bloody trick alright, Real hard to get the wheel base short on a Bevel so well done

Another instalment from MJworks (the guys that built the KTM 300 single; posted a while back):

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.243868875660702.58715.162739597106964&type=1

Sorry it's facebook but haven't found any other link to his work.

[husaberg]

www.eurospares.com/graphic2.htm (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/www.eurospares.com/graphic2.htm)

Don't know the year But I guess before Foale
257683

Egli did a TZ
257684

Half an Arrow by Fahron.
257685

TT2 still beautiful today
257686

60's spondon 2x greeves= 2x the trouble?
257687

[Brian d marge]

Another instalment from MJworks (the guys that built the KTM 300 single; posted a while back):

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.243868875660702.58715.162739597106964&type=1

Sorry it's facebook but haven't found any other link to his work.

After me holiday Ill have a small 3d scanner ,,,MJ works eat yur heart out

Stephen

[husaberg]

AS above laterz

[crazy man]

AS above laterzyou must be ready to come north and clean us boys up (-: how long have you been bucket racing for?

[husaberg]

you must be ready to come north and clean us boys up (-: how long have you been bucket racing for?

You northerners tracks are way to tight. it would so up the deficiencies in my riding.:crazy:

Haven't raced a bucket for 11 years

Similar story to Mike Hailwood i suppose only without the money or talent.
Nah Kids and farm in the way.
But the farm is sold and I now get free private medical insurance. So a sure fire recipe for a return to upper mid packer i hope. PS that might be why i need 35hp:shutup:

I have also gained a bit of weight 25 odd kgs so i really need 35BHP.:yes:

The frame is still 600km trip away but soon if i spent half the time riding or doing my bike well Watch out Mick Doohan cousins brother mate who can't ride that well.

JPS Norton evolution i will post the Cosworth later.

[crazy man]

You northerners tracks are way to tight. it would so up the deficiencies in my riding.:crazy:

Haven't raced a bucket for 11 years

Similar story to Mike Hailwood i suppose only without the money or talent.
Nah Kids and farm in the way.
But the farm is sold and I now get free private medical insurance. So a sure fire recipe for a return to upper mid packer i hope. PS that might be why i need 35hp:shutup:

I have also gained a bit of weight 25 odd kgs so i really need 35BHP.:yes:

The frame is still 600km trip away but soon if i spent half the time riding or doing my bike well Watch out Mick Doohan cousins brother mate who can't ride that well.

JPS Norton evolution i will post the Cosworth later.by any chance did you race in Christchurch at the woodgrim gp around 19 years ago before it was shut down? lm abit like you gone from 70kg to 95-100 kg )-; l only raced once in the last 12 years at buckets before we were not alowed back at the gokart track here

[husaberg]

by any chance did you race in Christchurch at the woodgrim gp around 19 years ago before it was shut down? lm abit like you gone from 70kg to 95-100 kg )-; l only raced once in the last 12 years at buckets before we were not alowed back at the gokart track here

Yes i did a horror meeting my worst ever.
Magneto shit it self maybe a little to much material removed or because.the bearing was on the way out.
Someone lent me a stator and rotor.
Rode it for a bit but it was hammering it (the borrowed bits). I don't know who lent it to me either but thanks whoever it was.
Mag side main had let go.
These maladies were i believe related.
I had left a lot of bits on the coast.
The old man did the 600km trip to bring them over.
Mike the "greenman" i believe won so he keeps er... reminding us

Below the Quantel Norton

I believe it may have won A BOT Daytona event later on or was second.
Norton had a big problem with the engine it turned out as well as costing them huge money it had so little flywheels it would allegedly lock the rear wheel on overrun and had a water pump that was supposed to be impossible to bleed without burning or scolding the mechanic

[crazy man]

Yes i did a horror meeting my worst ever.
Magneto shit it self maybe a little to much material removed or because.the bearing was on the way out.
Someone lent me a stator and rotor.
Rode it for a bit but it was hammering it(the borrowed bits). I don't know who lent it to me either but thanks whoever it was.
Mag side main had let go.
These maladies were i believe related.
I had left a lot of bits on the coast.
The old man did the 600km trip to bring them over.
Mike the "greenman" i believe won so he keeps er... reminding uscool l was there on my xl125 think l got 6th . l rember there were 70 riders !! there and broke them into 2 races A and B yip mike won it lucky me l got a ride on his bike the day after (-: did Ziffle ? kris smith get sec or third ? did you see that alumiium bike that crashed and bent up big time

[husaberg]

cool l was there on my xl125 think l got 6th . l rember there were 70 riders !! there and broke them into 2 races A and B yip mike won it lucky me l got a ride on his bike the day after (-: did Ziffle ? kris smith get sec or third ? did you see that alumiium bike that crashed and bent up big time

Vaguely remember an alloy framed bucket could have been John Eyles? Though i think his was later maybe.

My most lasting memory was a midget Asian on a RG50 wasn't fast at all. but he was scraping his knee big time everywhere.

Was a great meet though, A fitting sendoff for the place. RIP Wigram and Carrs Road.

[crazy man]

Vaguely was it John Eyles?

My most lasting memory was a midget Asian on a RG50 wasn't fast at all. but he was scraping his knee big time everywhere.

Was a great meet though, A fitting sendoff for the place. RIP Wigram and Carrs Road.yes it was fun times. was the first meeting l was getting my knee down with no knee srapers so payed the price for that with bleeding knee lol

[husaberg]

It will be a double post i guess.