Mini-motard for bucket racing?

[@ndy]

I'm really tempted to get myself one of those to do some racing next year:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/pocket-pit-bikes/auction-415534303.htm

Anybody using them in bucket racing? Or is all bigger frame sport type bikes?

[White trash]

As Mr Hitcher so eloquently puts it.

Gah! *thud*

[jasonu]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/143595-What-class-will-this-fit-into
Read the above thread before handing over your hard earned cash. As far as I know the eligibility of these machines as a bucket has yet to be determined.

[Buckets4Me]

I'm really tempted to get myself one of those to do some racing next year:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/pocket-pit-bikes/auction-415534303.htm

Anybody using them in bucket racing? Or is all bigger frame sport type bikes?

looks good sounds good but you realy need the supllier to give10 people bikes and set up there own class

woud be way cooler (than running a bike that is realy no good for buckets) and I'd put my hand up to race one
253431yes they are raced



253430 like this street magic to

[F5 Dave]

Just buy a legal bike. Fxr is easiest.

[Buckets4Me]

Just buy a legal bike. Fxr is easiest.

ditto that and cheaper

or start a new class called mini MOTARD (I'm going out to get a crf100 just in case)

[NSR143]

I'm really tempted to get myself one of those to do some racing next year:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/pocket-pit-bikes/auction-415534303.htm

Anybody using them in bucket racing? Or is all bigger frame sport type bikes?

I have emailed them to see if they can give us some idea of how many have been sold, impling we could create a class under supplimentary rules IF there are enough around and IF they are not eligible under F4 rules, which they may not be due to their stating they are designed for racing.

Plenty of Mini-Motards out there and we see them racing but not generally as high spec as this.

If you were nice and slow and didn't fly past everyone you would also probably get away with it. (but I didn't say that OK)

[@ndy]

I have emailed them to see if they can give us some idea of how many have been sold, impling we could create a class under supplimentary rules IF there are enough around and IF they are not eligible under F4 rules, which they may not be due to their stating they are designed for racing.

Plenty of Mini-Motards out there and we see them racing but not generally as high spec as this.

If you were nice and slow and didn't fly past everyone you would also probably get away with it. (but I didn't say that OK)

I e-mail them too:yes:

I'm really excited about the idea of a mini motard class, perhaps to be raced in the same events of buckets? I know there are lot of people with regular pit bikes around the North Island ... maybe can see if we can get a few together so to get a deal on motard setup? Just tasting the water to see if there is interest.
Here is some Ozi action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZFno6cc3pY

P.S. don't want to hijack the bucket thread just want to increase the chances for affordable motorbike racing in NZ :rockon:
Any interest post or pm me.

[Pumba]

P.S. don't want to hijack the bucket thread just want to increase the chances for affordable motorbike racing in NZ :rockon:
Any interest post or pm me.

Well it is your thread so you can take it in whatever direction you want. And besides if you don't do it yourself we will take it off track by the time we get to page 2.

My $0.02 on the subject. Personally racing pit bikes does not hold much appeal for me, and I would argue that there are already a number of "affordable" classes of motorbike racing available. Although it is always good to be looking at the next thing to ensure classes survive we need to be careful that we do not end up diluting the pool of racers we have coming into the sport across to many classes resulting in small grids. I believe that this is something that MNZ has been guilty of at different times and I have also seen it in other sporting organisations.

As I say just my thoughts. I dont think anything is broke so no need to fix it. Feel free rip shit out of it as you see fit.

[avgas]

I would argue that there are already a number of "affordable" classes of motorbike racing available.
So if I had $1000 a year to race with. And that had to include entry fees, tyres, gas and a bike. The whole lot.
What should I race?

Back in the bad old days I used to be able to race a car for that kind of money. That included buying a car and getting a frame welded into it. The guys I was against had similar budgets (or less).

Last bucket meet I went too had more money in tyres and motors than I have in my whole current bike. Just sayin - best not to dismiss him without hearing out some alternatives.

[bucketracer]

That's the thing I like most about buckets, there is a place for all budgets, and a good rider can do well on limited resources.

[Henk]

Grand a year race budget.
I know of a bike (in wellington) that could be had for $500, that leaves $30 for entry fees and $15 to spend where you like, this is a seriously tight budget and I'd say you were better off with your grand as an operating budget instead of the $500 you have allowed yourself.
This will get you racing, you won't be competive in A grade but will be having a bundle of laughs in B.
As for the mini motard new class, I also think you are better off going with one of the existing classes, especially given that the asking price is above what a couple of competitive FXRs have gone for lately, I also suspect that it might be something that takes off initially and then fades as time goes on. Pockets were quite active for a while but have now all but died, I'd hate to commit the better part of two grand on a bike that may end up rotting in a shed due to a lack of machinery to compete against.

[Buckets4Me]

So if I had $1000 a year to race with. And that had to include entry fees, tyres, gas and a bike. The whole lot.
What should I race?

Back in the bad old days I used to be able to race a car for that kind of money. That included buying a car and getting a frame welded into it. The guys I was against had similar budgets (or less).

Last bucket meet I went too had more money in tyres and motors than I have in my whole current bike. Just sayin - best not to dismiss him without hearing out some alternatives.

i would say rc cars :yes:

up to 2k to get a bike and gear (you need decent leathers helmit back protector boots and gloves )

$50 to join a club
$150 ? for a race licence
$30 x 10 race meatings
$? more for the bigger tracks $120+
$ for gas and repairs
$? slicks you only need to replace them every other year or 3 $100ish a pair second hand

you may blow the buget the first year :pinch::eek5::crazy:

but after getting setup you wont be far out if you look after the bike

[avgas]

Hmmmm I am going to say no.

Cheaper to make me a sand scolloper and do the beach sprints.

And people wonder "why don't you race????"
Speeding tickets are cheaper than a year racing.

[Henk]

Hmmmm I am going to say no.

Cheaper to make me a sand scolloper and do the beach sprints.

And people wonder "why don't you race????"
Speeding tickets are cheaper than a year racing.

I hate to break it to you but you are wrong on both counts.

[Ivan]

when did slicks and wets become the have to be in buckets? Im going to race on the tires ive got till they are fucked then replace em much like what i did in F2 as well

[Pumba]

So if I had $1000 a year to race with. And that had to include entry fees, tyres, gas and a bike. The whole lot.
What should I race?

I purposely did not put a $ figure on "affordable". The definition of affordable is fluid depending on peoples personal circumstances, case in point my definition of what is affordable as far as racing goes has significantly changed in the last month with the arrival of my kid. If I did not already have the bike, leathers etc then buckets would probably not be affordable to me at this stage of my life.

It is not a god given right to race. If you cannot afford it you cannot afford it. Tough.


Back in the bad old days I used to be able to race a car for that kind of money. That included buying a car and getting a frame welded into it. The guys I was against had similar budgets (or less).

What do you mean by bad old days? How long ago? Inflation is unavoidable and there is always someone willing to spend more for there own enjoyment.


Last bucket meet I went too had more money in tyres and motors than I have in my whole current bike. Just sayin - best not to dismiss him without hearing out some alternatives.

I could fall into this camp, but i know a lot of others that have spent more. I don't apologize to anyone for what I have spent on my bike. My money my choice.

I have dismissed it as a class I would be interested in being involved in. Once again my choice.

[Dutchee]

All our bikes have cost under a grand to buy, a bit more for body work, and a couple of cans of spray paint. Wheels have cost a bit, and apparently they make a difference (compared to stock).

Talking to Dobbsy a couple of years back, he was commenting that tyres for his weekend were about a grand (on the ducati). That's our tyre budget for a few years. We've bought 2nd hand tyres.

If you guys want to start a new class, you do the legwork, others will help, but don't expect them to organise it for you. They've all got real jobs and limited time. Guys with vested interest should do the hard yards, and if that comes across as rude, tough. It's not that you're not welcome, it's either conform to the rules, or work towards getting them changed yourselves.

Buckets are expensive as you want. Your competitiveness is in relation to your budget and ability. You won't be mocked (unless you're captian_soup) because your bike falls apart (unless it then is too loud or damages the track). You'll be helped by a lot of people.

Good gear is another story though, you do need full leathers (one or two piece, no cordura), helmet, gloves, boots and a back protector. But leathers can be had cheap enough on tardme, so long as you're prepared to wait for the right one to come along, and back protectors are also often available 2nd hand. The rest you should have if you're riding on the road anyway.

If you come along to a fun meeting with all your gear, if you ask you could well end up going for a taste ride (somehow we're not keen to lend bikes to unknowns for races), or contact John Connor and see if you can book the club bike for a day/weekend.

[Moooools]

when did slicks and wets become the have to be in buckets? Im going to race on the tires ive got till they are fucked then replace em much like what i did in F2 as well

About the time when people realized that 125 GP riders didn't want them after a few heat cycles, and were still plenty sticky for buckets. Oh and cheaper than road tyres.
And as for wets (in Wellington at least) they double the number of race days each year that you can actually race properly.

But I agree with what others have said, your budget is what you have to work with. You can have a shit load of fun with a huge range of monetary inputs. If you want to be racing at the front of A-Grade, you need to be prepared to put a bit of money, or a whole lot of time into your bike (oh and that funny thing that sits on top holding onto the bars).

It is a formula class so it really is to be expected that bikes keep improving.

[Henk]

About the time when people realized that 125 GP riders didn't want them after a few heat cycles, and were still plenty sticky for buckets. Oh and cheaper than road tyres.
And as for wets (in Wellington at least) they double the number of race days each year that you can actually race properly.

But I agree with what others have said, your budget is what you have to work with. You can have a shit load of fun with a huge range of monetary inputs. If you want to be racing at the front of A-Grade, you need to be prepared to put a bit of money, or a whole lot of time into your bike (oh and that funny thing that sits on top holding onto the bars).

It is a formula class so it really is to be expected that bikes keep improving.


The most I have shelled out for tyres is $200 for a set of one race old YDC Bridgestones, compare that to BT39SS road tyres on special at Treads at the moment for around $300 and slicks make sense. As for wets, in Wellington on a damp day they do let you race harder, in Auckland they let you race, splashing through puddles at the the December fun day I managaged to get my knee down a couple of times and push pretty hard for the conditions, on treaded road tyres (which aren't much better than slicks in the wet) at around 65% of that I suspect I would have been getting my whole body down, Mt Wellington is that slippery, before I got a decent set of wets I was running BT39SS to start with followed by a set of super old and trashed wets that were worth about the free that I paid for them, at that stage my average was three crashes per wet day. Now I usually manage to keep it on its wheels.

[Buckets4Me]

So if I had $1000 a year to race with. And that had to include entry fees, tyres, gas and a bike. The whole lot.
What should I race?

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/performance/auction-435258956.htm blowen the buget this season but you can always come back next season

[jasonu]

Buckets is motor raceing and just like anyother class it is going to cost something. How much is up to you and what you want to achieve.
As for the Forza, I for one am dead against them as an additional class at bucket meetings or as an F4 bike (even off the back of the grid no points), even if there is enough of them for a new class. As someone already said, if they open a new class for them, there is a good chance of the numbers dwindleing over time as the pocket bikes did and then the owners will want to ride in F4.
Also, you might want to ask the organisers if there is in fact enough time any given race day for another class.
The easiest way to enter buckets is to get an already built LEGAL bike.

[F5 Dave]

So if I had $1000 a year to race with. And that had to include entry fees, tyres, gas and a bike. The whole lot.
What should I race?

Back in the bad old days I used to be able to race a car for that kind of money. That included buying a car and getting a frame welded into it. The guys I was against had similar budgets (or less).

Last bucket meet I went too had more money in tyres and motors than I have in my whole current bike. Just sayin - best not to dismiss him without hearing out some alternatives.
well buy a car & fall asleep at the wheel.:violin:

[ajturbo]

when did slicks and wets become the have to be in buckets? Im going to race on the tires ive got till they are fucked then replace em much like what i did in F2 as well

it would be nice to have slicks..
but like Ivan, i am not going to use them (unless i get given them) and my bikes are not brought for any more than $150ish each and then i do spend around $200ish on getting them tuned

so for LESS than $1000 you CAN still get a bike and race it...there are A B and C classes in Wellington.. if you or your bike is slow (=me) you go in the right class for YOU and the racing is just as much fun.. and close and sometimes touchy..mmmm love the touchy feely

AJ

[Ivan]

5 year old pirelli mt75 on the front and thrown away pirelli front 675 tire on the rear chur tu meke

[gav]

Cheap FXR150 right here http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/other/auction-435510347.htm

As for tyres, guess it depends where you race. Down here in Chch, Ruapuna is pretty grippy in the wet, so slicks on a bucket seem to work fine. Even Levels in Timaru isnt too bad, but as Ive crashed there on slicks in the wet, it might not be quite as grippy as Ruapuna :eek::msn-wink:

[gav]

As for the FXR/TZR I think its safe to say its going to a good home. :niceone:

[koba]

Cheap FXR150 right here http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/other/auction-435510347.htm

As for tyres, guess it depends where you race. Down here in Chch, Ruapuna is pretty grippy in the wet, so slicks on a bucket seem to work fine. Even Levels in Timaru isnt too bad, but as Ive crashed there on slicks in the wet, it might not be quite as grippy as Ruapuna :eek::msn-wink:

I've noticed it's easier to keep up on wet-shod bikes on my slicks at longer tracks.

[Henk]

I've noticed it's easier to keep up on wet-shod bikes on my slicks at longer tracks.

We need to get you to Mt Wellington on a wet day at some stage, we'll put you out on slicks to start with and take wagers.

[koba]

We need to get you to Mt Wellington on a wet day at some stage, we'll put you out on slicks to start with and take wagers.

I don't mind falling off, just need a bit more healing time though.

[goivy26]

Hey folks;

I have been reading some of the threads in this forum for some time now and just had to respond to some of them as they were getting a bit personal.

My name is Ivan Smith and I used to race motorcycles a fair bit in the late 90s early 2000's for those who know me would know that I have a couple of NZ titles and have also done a bit of racing O/S on occasion, I will stop there as there is no need to qualify myself.

I have recently started bucket racing as I missed racing much and since I now have a young family money isn't overflowing out of my wallet.

In my former life as a motorcycle engineer I learnt a few things about making engines go faster etc etc blah blah, but it all takes time so i did some research an found that the Forza FMX 140SE was legal yes legal for bucket racing!!!!

The frame is based on a KLX110 not a KX or KXF and the engine is based on the old Honda Monkey motor, neither are competition based motorcycle. A CRF150F is legal as a Bucket Racer and a CRF150R is not etc etc etc. (just and easy comparision).

So after careful consideration I thought should I spend hours in the garage building a weapon and between shift work etc never see my good wife or kids ??? tempting. So I got a Forza and put a set of wheels on it and that is it nothing but standard apart from the exhaust (I slung it under the engine to make it look more road bike!!!, all up it has cost me $1800.00 and nothing has broken on it.

I have had it on the Dyno and it puts out 12hp thats right folks 12hp!!!!!!! and as for the Motogp wantabes who seem to think maybe I was a bit slow around the corners please put your hands up as I didn't see you at the two hour (which I beleive is where all the grumbling is comming from).

My co racer on the day Mark Addison had never raced before, never! and before the 2hr had finished had already purchased a bike similar to mine as he had "the most fun with my pants on!!!!!" so come on guys if you can't handle the jandle put on some shoes!!!! I'm sure if there were some tech checks done there would be many people with red faces.

So clarification to all.......
My bike a Forza FMX140SE is legal!
Racing Rocks and Whining dosn't!

:Police:

[koba]

Mint, its cool when questionable things are cleared up as legal.

I was a bit sceptical about the stuff I bought from the tinny house the other day. After the guy assuring me it was legal my concerns evaporated.

[F5 Dave]

Hi, its always good to see new people entering the sport. It is full of people who have never previously raced, or used to race bigger bikes but can't stretch there & realise a scale size smaller can be just as fun.

The rules are in place so people don't go crazy & we end up in a spiraling arms race. The rules have been the same for some time. No rules are perfect, but they are what they are.

However you say you did some research & proclaim your bike legal. In the research you should have noted that frames are not controlled - so why mention it? Did you do research in the MNZ rule book? Or anecdotal?

So the bike isn't powerful, that's almost irrelevant to the argument. To be honest in local races we wouldn't care if you raced or not on it. But it is dangerous to set a precedent. That really is what the thread is about.

Further, there are many ways to build a legal bike. The most common path is an $800 dereg'd FXR & some better tyres.

[goivy26]

It was only to clarify and add weight to the fact it is a non-competion bike.

[jasonu]

Hey folks;

I have been reading some of the threads in this forum for some time now and just had to respond to some of them as they were getting a bit personal.

My name is Ivan Smith and I used to race motorcycles a fair bit in the late 90s early 2000's for those who know me would know that I have a couple of NZ titles and have also done a bit of racing O/S on occasion, I will stop there as there is no need to qualify myself.

I have recently started bucket racing as I missed racing much and since I now have a young family money isn't overflowing out of my wallet.

In my former life as a motorcycle engineer I learnt a few things about making engines go faster etc etc blah blah, but it all takes time so i did some research an found that the Forza FMX 140SE was legal yes legal for bucket racing!!!!

The frame is based on a KLX110 not a KX or KXF and the engine is based on the old Honda Monkey motor, neither are competition based motorcycle. A CRF150F is legal as a Bucket Racer and a CRF150R is not etc etc etc. (just and easy comparision).

So after careful consideration I thought should I spend hours in the garage building a weapon and between shift work etc never see my good wife or kids ??? tempting. So I got a Forza and put a set of wheels on it and that is it nothing but standard apart from the exhaust (I slung it under the engine to make it look more road bike!!!, all up it has cost me $1800.00 and nothing has broken on it.

I have had it on the Dyno and it puts out 12hp thats right folks 12hp!!!!!!! and as for the Motogp wantabes who seem to think maybe I was a bit slow around the corners please put your hands up as I didn't see you at the two hour (which I beleive is where all the grumbling is comming from).

My co racer on the day Mark Addison had never raced before, never! and before the 2hr had finished had already purchased a bike similar to mine as he had "the most fun with my pants on!!!!!" so come on guys if you can't handle the jandle put on some shoes!!!! I'm sure if there were some tech checks done there would be many people with red faces.

So clarification to all.......
My bike a Forza FMX140SE is legal!
Racing Rocks and Whining dosn't!

:Police:

Do you work for, or are sponsord by the Forza importer?

[Henk]

The relevant part of your post runs along the lines of "is based on a honda monkey motor" too lazy to quote.

The book states it must be from a non competition motorcycle. That is where the problem comes in, you stump up a road legal bike running that engine and there will be no isue.
The GL145 engine is legal. The Loncin motors, if somebody made an issue of it may well not be. Based on is not the same as equal to.

[Buckets4Me]

The relevant part of your post runs along the lines of "is based on a honda monkey motor" too lazy to quote.

The book states it must be from a non competition motorcycle. That is where the problem comes in, you stump up a road legal bike running that engine and there will be no isue.
The GL145 engine is legal. The Loncin motors, if somebody made an issue of it may well not be. Based on is not the same as equal to.

dosn't say anywhere that it has to be a road bike engine :pinch: (fell for that one myself)

[Buckets4Me]

Hey folks;
i did some research an found that the Forza FMX 140SE was legal yes legal for bucket racing!!!!

The frame is based on a KLX110 not a KX or KXF and the engine is based on the old Honda Monkey motor, neither are competition based motorcycle. A CRF150F is legal as a Bucket Racer and a CRF150R is not etc etc etc. (just and easy comparision).

So clarification to all.......
My bike a Forza FMX140SE is legal!
Racing Rocks and Whining dosn't!

:Police:
but the advertising blurb said it was a race bike (therefor not legal just like the crf150r) :facepalm:

"FXR155Z Motard is designed for the Kart lance Racing," :facepalm::shit::shutup: so the sales people say it's not legal









NEK minit I reread your post and see that you have an FMX140SE that may be legal as it's not a race bike

ps it was me who took pics of you racing at the 2 hour :yes: 255239

255240and didn't these 2 new riders beat you ? (just because I had to add something personal :drinkup:)

hope you come back (we aren't as bad as the classic guys. no one has ever put in a complaint)

[Buckets4Me]

In my former life as a motorcycle engineer I learnt a few things about making engines go faster etc etc blah blah, but it all takes time so i did some research an found that the Forza FMX 140SE was legal yes legal for bucket racing!!!!


So clarification to all.......
My bike a Forza FMX140SE is legal!
Racing Rocks and Whining dosn't!

:Police:

I also did some research and you dont have a legal bike :pinch::bash:

quote from the importers website

FMX140 SE (special edition) uses GPX/YX 140cc racing engine with TWIN muffler design.
This machine rips and generate 12HP, your bike will dominate the 140cc class!


sorry it has a racing engine so not legal
go ask for your money back

[goivy26]

but the advertising blurb said it was a race bike (therefor not legal just like the crf150r) :facepalm:

"FXR155Z Motard is designed for the Kart lance Racing," :facepalm::shit::shutup: so the sales people say it's not legal









NEK minit I reread your post and see that you have an FMX140SE that may be legal as it's not a race bike

ps it was me who took pics of you racing at the 2 hour :yes: 255239

255240and didn't these 2 new riders beat you ? (just because I had to add something personal :drinkup:)

hope you come back (we aren't as bad as the classic guys. no one has ever put in a complaint)

They kicked my ass but I fell off twice and had to pit three times as I only have a 3lt tank!!!!
I will be back !!!!! maybe a FXR powered RM 80 ????

You guys race hard Im just sad because Im not fast anymore!!!

Ivy

[TZ350]

They kicked my ass ... Im just sad because Im not fast anymore!!!
Ivy

Join the club brother ..... :laugh: still lots of fun to be had.

[Tard]

...Motard Pit bikes will take over Bucket Racing! Just remember you read it here first mawhaha ;) :done:

[gav]

Im not sure who said the 140cc pit bike was an issue, it was certainly the 155 that was an issue as the engine is oversize according to the rules. And its also the fact that the FXR155Z is advertised as a competition bike, that tends to suggest it is also outside the rules.
As the chassis is open being based on a KLX110 chassis, (like a KLX110 was the first bike to use that chassis ... ) acyually doesnt count for anything either.
Just because the engine is "based" on soem old relic doesnt really mean anything either. An old air cooled RM100 maybe "based" on an old TS100 motor but that doesnt make it a legal motor.
The best thing would be for all these mini motards to turn up and have their own class for ... mini motard racing, what a novel idea ... :brick:

[jasonu]

Im not sure who said the 140cc pit bike was an issue, it was certainly the 155 that was an issue as the engine is oversize according to the rules. And its also the fact that the FXR155Z is advertised as a competition bike, that tends to suggest it is also outside the rules.
As the chassis is open being based on a KLX110 chassis, (like a KLX110 was the first bike to use that chassis ... ) acyually doesnt count for anything either.
Just because the engine is "based" on soem old relic doesnt really mean anything either. An old air cooled RM100 maybe "based" on an old TS100 motor but that doesnt make it a legal motor.
The best thing would be for all these mini motards to fuck off and run their own seperate meetings for their own class for ... mini motard racing, what a novel idea ... :brick:

10characters

[koba]

The best thing would be for all these mini motards to turn up and have their own class for ... mini motard racing, what a novel idea ... :brick:

Plus one to that.

I'll be surprised if I see any actual effort from interested parties go into organising it.

The brick is perfect smiley.

[Tard]

The best thing would be for all these mini motards to turn up and have their own class for ... mini motard racing, what a novel idea ... :brick:


...Kinda funny...I seem to recall there being debate for years about Motards (450cc +) racing in various classes, F3, BEARS etc etc and plenty of moaning about lines, braking points blah blah blah - pages & pages of 'debate' in KB somewhere - now it seems to be invading F4/5 buckets. I think 450+ Motards are still allowed out in F3 and BEARS? :shifty:

[koba]

...Kinda funny...I seem to recall there being debate for years about Motards (450cc +) racing in various classes, F3, BEARS etc etc and plenty of moaning about lines, braking points blah blah blah - pages & pages of 'debate' in KB somewhere - now it seems to be invading F4/5 buckets. I think 450+ Motards are still allowed out in F3 and BEARS :shifty:

Whey were effectively banned from F3 or ultra/super/duper/mega/pro/con-lites or whatever it's currently called.
For a few years there was a maximum handlebar height introduced. I think it has since been junked but there is something about riding style.
I can't be arsed looking at the rules but it is all on the MNZ website if anyone actually cares.

[Moooools]

From memory the rules are like:

No motocross or motard riding position.
Bikes must be fully faired.
Clip on handlebars only.

[jasonu]

From memory the rules are like:

No motocross or motard riding position.
Bikes must be fully faired.
Clip on handlebars only.

Did you just make that up?

[richban]

Did you just make that up?

F3 rules. Not Buckets.

[Buckets4Me]

...Kinda funny...I seem to recall there being debate for years about Motards (450cc +) racing in various classes, F3, BEARS etc etc and plenty of moaning about lines, braking points blah blah blah - pages & pages of 'debate' in KB somewhere - now it seems to be invading F4/5 buckets. I think 450+ Motards are still allowed out in F3 and BEARS? :shifty:

you would never get that in buckets as motards or motocross bikes are banned anyway :pinch:

Motocross, Road Racing,
Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted.

[koba]

you would never get that in buckets as motards or motocross bikes are banned anyway :pinch:


Engines. There is a guy with a 125 MX bike running 17s with slicks that goes quite well. It's RX125 powered.

[Moooools]

Did you just make that up?

Yeah just pulled it right out of my arse for a laugh.


4.6 Be fitted with clip-on style bars (no MX, Motard, and Enduro or trail/dual purpose style of handle bars)

Other two I though were there but weren't. God damn non-photographic memory.

(Oh and these are F3 rules)

[Buckets4Me]

Engines. There is a guy with a 125 MX bike running 17s with slicks that goes quite well. It's RX125 powered.

yes yes only the engine is banned and then some parts are ok :facepalm::shit:

[wildman]

Im not sure who said the 140cc pit bike was an issue, it was certainly the 155 that was an issue as the engine is oversize according to the rules. And its also the fact that the FXR155Z is advertised as a competition bike, that tends to suggest it is also outside the rules.
As the chassis is open being based on a KLX110 chassis, (like a KLX110 was the first bike to use that chassis ... ) acyually doesnt count for anything either.
Just because the engine is "based" on soem old relic doesnt really mean anything either. An old air cooled RM100 maybe "based" on an old TS100 motor but that doesnt make it a legal motor.
The best thing would be for all these mini motards to turn up and have their own class for ... mini motard racing, what a novel idea ... :brick:

I like the idea of them having their own class if enough turn up to do it, but i would be worried that we suddenly have to many classes and one that may be struggling at the moment to rebuild itself gets sidelined. Is there a structure in place for people to put forward new rules or changes to existing rules that can be discussed and voted on by the majority?

[TZ350]

Engines. There is a guy with a 125 MX bike running 17s with slicks that goes quite well. It's RX125 powered.

Yes its a great class, the bigie rule is about the origines of the engine and transmission parts with some other small engine detail rules then everything else is open. Its great for constructors, riders, newbees and experts alike.

[koba]

I like the idea of them having their own class if enough turn up to do it, but i would be worried that we suddenly have to many classes and one that may be struggling at the moment to rebuild itself gets sidelined. Is there a structure in place for people to put forward new rules or changes to existing rules that can be discussed and voted on by the majority?

There is a process through MNZ but I don't see that being a smooth road. If people wanted it in place they would probably be best off talking to their local organiser(s) whoever they may be (Club or otherwise). One major pre-requisite is having enough people interested and able to participate.

[TZ350]

MNZ have decleared F4 F5 as self policing, they are not much interested in rule wrangles, making rule clarifications or any detail changes. I guess they and the people MNZ seek advice from re Buckets think the formula is pretty good as it is, for the time being anyway.

[NSR143]

We have to keep our thoughts open to 'what next' as bikes come and go in the market place. How many FXRs and CBR150s will be left in 5 years time and will there be enough to supply a healthy number of riders. Not everyone's an engineer and can make all the bits fit together in a reliable way when it comes to making do with whatever is laying around. Even IF 155 or 160cc engines come into play because thats the main stream engine for pit bikes there will always be the option of restrictions in carb size or whatever is easiest to regulate. Pit bikes on the F4 track will always have to conform to the traditional riding style to keep things sweet as we have seen in F3 in recent years.

We actually had a class for Motard Pit bikes at, of all places... Waipawa! and regularly got 6-8 bikes turning up. So that in todays terms is $240-$320 worth of input to make our racing affordable.

Regulate.... don't terminate.... the idea!

[jasonu]

F3 rules. Not Buckets.

Yes mate I knew he was referring to F3 but it still sounds made up.

[cave weta]

:drinkup::wings::Punk::hug::blip:

Just remember that I'm your friendly local Kiwibiker FORZA dealer.
All parts in stock -demo bikes ready to ride - trade ins welcome.

[Moooools]

Yes mate I knew he was referring to F3 but it still sounds made up.

Yes two out of three were a figment of my imagination but one wasn't.
Must have been the word 'Style' at the back of my mind.

RULE:
4.6 Be fitted with clip-on style bars (no MX, Motard, and Enduro or trail/dual purpose style of handle bars)

Why would I just make shit up?

Oooooh maybe I am an undercover MNZ agent here to try and catch you out. Good work. You have passed my test. You may now enter 'The League of Gentleman who Know the Rule Good Enough to Tell When Shit is Made Up'. The prestige has me overwhelmed.

[richban]

We have to keep our thoughts open to 'what next' as bikes come and go in the market place. How many FXRs and CBR150s will be left in 5 years time and will there be enough to supply a healthy number of riders. Not everyone's an engineer and can make all the bits fit together in a reliable way when it comes to making do with whatever is laying around. Even IF 155 or 160cc engines come into play because thats the main stream engine for pit bikes there will always be the option of restrictions in carb size or whatever is easiest to regulate. Pit bikes on the F4 track will always have to conform to the traditional riding style to keep things sweet as we have seen in F3 in recent years.

We actually had a class for Motard Pit bikes at, of all places... Waipawa! and regularly got 6-8 bikes turning up. So that in todays terms is $240-$320 worth of input to make our racing affordable.

Regulate.... don't terminate.... the idea!


I think there will be heaps of options for a legal cheap buckets in the future as there is now. Leaner bikes get crashed a lot remember. If people want to spend 1800 bucks on a mini motard then let them. But don't call it a bucket coz it isn't. The 155 / 160 engine size thing is irrelevant if the mini motard's are in there own class.

[avgas]

:drinkup::wings::Punk::hug::blip:

Just remember that I'm your friendly local Kiwibiker FORZA dealer.
All parts in stock -demo bikes ready to ride - trade ins welcome.

How about starting your own Forza 50 class ;)

[F5 Dave]

In wgtn we have to bear in mind the vast majority of our races are with the karts so there isn't room in thier program for additional races. We get A & B class. Or just 'all in' if numbers are down.

just to point that out for wgtn,

[jasonu]

Yes two out of three were a figment of my imagination but one wasn't.
Must have been the word 'Style' at the back of my mind.

RULE:
4.6 Be fitted with clip-on style bars (no MX, Motard, and Enduro or trail/dual purpose style of handle bars)

Why would I just make shit up?

Oooooh maybe I am an undercover MNZ agent here to try and catch you out. Good work. You have passed my test. You may now enter 'The League of Gentleman who Know the Rule Good Enough to Tell When Shit is Made Up'. The prestige has me overwhelmed.

What ever you say mate :tugger:

[Str8 Jacket]

What ever you say mate :tugger:
What's your problem mate?

[Moooools]

What's your problem mate?

255326

+10Character

[cave weta]

How about starting your own Forza 50 class ;)

Cos Forza do not make any 50cc bikes....

[jasonu]

255326

+10Character

I'm not American.

[Moooools]

I'm not American.

Did you just make that up?
It just sounds like you made it up is all.


Alright I've had my fun.
Back to bickering about whether it's okay or not to lose an F4 race on an illegal bike.

[F5 Dave]

I'm not American.

This is the bit where I post the picture of you standing by the stars & stripes with your little plaque.

Don't let Max wind you up. He's now an Aucklander.

[Moooools]

Don't let Max wind you up. He's now an Aucklander.

If auckland roads have taught me anything it is how to be a pushy arsehole.
Just you wait until this weekend Dave. You and your fiddy don't stand a chance against me, the Lifan and my newfound disrespect for everyone around me.

[Henk]

and my newfound disrespect for everyone around me.

sounds like you are acclimatising well

[jasonu]

If auckland roads have taught me anything it is how to be a pushy arsehole.
Just you wait until this weekend Dave. You and your fiddy don't stand a chance against me, the Lifan and my newfound disrespect for everyone around me.

With a 'tude like that you would never fit in over here...

[F5 Dave]

If auckland roads have taught me anything it is how to be a pushy arsehole.
Just you wait until this weekend Dave. You and your fiddy don't stand a chance against me, the Lifan and my newfound disrespect for everyone around me.
Could be an interesting match up seeing as I'll be 300cc mounted & in the dirt, north of Masterton. Bring it on on your gookmobile, good luck with that.

[Moooools]

Yeah shit forgot you were too much of a pussy to take me on.
Oh well. Next time I won't announce that I am coming down. That way you won't be able to make excuses before hand.

[F5 Dave]

No no, I'm up for it. We'll be here. Best wear body armour.

http://www.zoomin.co.nz/map/nz/masterton/bideford/te+ore+ore+bideford+road/

[Moooools]

Deal.

Although most likely it will end up here if I show up:

http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Whipass+Hill,+Beaconsfield,+South+Bucks+District ,+United+Kingdom&aq=0&oq=whipass+h&sll=-40.513799,172.617188&sspn=72.945044,191.513672&vpsrc=6&ie=UTF8&hq=Whipass+Hill,&hnear=Beaconsfield,+Buckinghamshire,+United+Kingdo m&ll=51.614632,-0.630598&spn=0.014963,0.046756&t=h&z=16&ei=vqsXT6KMGYm0kgXO-_DUBg&pw=2

[wildman]

Yeah shit forgot you were too much of a pussy to take me on.
Oh well. Next time I won't announce that I am coming down. That way you won't be able to make excuses before hand.

So what's you're excuse for not finishing that sidecar yet? Are you afraid of being shown up by the Yellow Weapon Of Death? You should be.
Hey we're going to be at Mt Welly on the 28th if you want to have a go on the sidecar, maybe that'll motivate you

[koba]

Deal.

Although most likely it will end up here if I show up:

http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Whipass+Hill,+Beaconsfield,+South+Bucks+District ,+United+Kingdom&aq=0&oq=whipass+h&sll=-40.513799,172.617188&sspn=72.945044,191.513672&vpsrc=6&ie=UTF8&hq=Whipass+Hill,&hnear=Beaconsfield,+Buckinghamshire,+United+Kingdo m&ll=51.614632,-0.630598&spn=0.014963,0.046756&t=h&z=16&ei=vqsXT6KMGYm0kgXO-_DUBg&pw=2

Are you trying to say you want to take Dave up longbottom lane?

[Moooools]

So what's you're excuse for not finishing that sidecar yet? Are you afraid of being shown up by the Yellow Weapon Of Death? You should be.
Hey we're going to be at Mt Welly on the 28th if you want to have a go on the sidecar, maybe that'll motivate you

Too many other projects. Way to many.
But I would be keen for a swing on the chair on the 28th!

[Moooools]

Are you trying to say you want to take Dave up longbottom lane?

Shit. Just shit. I really should have looked at that map more carefully. That lane is most inconveniently placed.

[Drew]

Reading this tripe, is really making me regret building a bucket, (and buy a second bike to likewise transform). Perhaps I wont bother tuning it and coming to the track, you cunts bitch more than the guys who ride real bikes.

If a motard pit bike shows up, and someone isn't happy about it, pick the rule you think they are breaking and protest. Otherwise, suck it up.

[Drew]

Oh by the way. In formula three, anyone is welcome to fit clip on bars to a motorcross bike and race. Same with pro twins should someone have the wallet to get an Aprillia SXV6.5 or whatever they call it.

[Henk]

Reading this tripe, is really making me regret building a bucket, (and buy a second bike to likewise transform). Perhaps I wont bother tuning it and coming to the track, you cunts bitch more than the guys who ride real bikes.

If a motard pit bike shows up, and someone isn't happy about it, pick the rule you think they are breaking and protest. Otherwise, suck it up.


Drew
My major objection to these bikes isn't the fact that they aren't legal. It's the fact that they aren't legal and are being marketed as buckets. If that makes me a Whining bitch so be it. I'm guessing you'd be pretty pissed off if you shelled out $1800 only to be told to fuck off when you tried to race it.

[jasonu]

Reading this tripe, is really making me regret building a bucket, (and buy a second bike to likewise transform). Perhaps I wont bother tuning it and coming to the track, you cunts bitch more than the guys who ride real bikes.

Or could it possibly be a case of you thought you could show up on any old piece of shit and 'show them how the big boys do it'? I've seen that happen before and more than a couple of 'proper race bike riders' have been sent packing with their tails between their legs.


Drew
My major objection to these bikes isn't the fact that they aren't legal. It's the fact that they aren't legal and are being marketed as buckets. If that makes me a Whining bitch so be it. I'm guessing you'd be pretty pissed off if you shelled out $1800 only to be told to fuck off when you tried to race it.

What he said too.

[Drew]

Or could it possibly be a case of you thought you could show up on any old piece of shit and 'show them how the big boys do it'? I've seen that happen before and more than a couple of 'proper race bike riders' have been sent packing with their tails between their legs.

You've got it all figured out all right.

[Drew]

Drew
My major objection to these bikes isn't the fact that they aren't legal. It's the fact that they aren't legal and are being marketed as buckets. If that makes me a Whining bitch so be it. I'm guessing you'd be pretty pissed off if you shelled out $1800 only to be told to fuck off when you tried to race it.No matter what bike shows up, if they get told to fuck off, make sure whoever does it can pick a specific rule as a reason. Because although MNZ don't really want anything to do with buckets, they wont have a choice but to look into a grievance.

[Henk]

Aside from rule 24.2 which is the standard engines must be derived from non competition engines... That we all know and love, appendix D states that max capacity for F4 is 150cc with a max over ore of 158.09cc.
That tells me that if you start at 150 and go out to 155 you are OK but if you start at 155 you are screwed.
This is all from the latest MNZ manual that turned up in the mail about a month ago for some reason.

[Drew]

The 155 doesn't comply, I do realise that. But just make sure that if one does show up, that it is a 155 before ya tell them to fuck off.

[Henk]

I'll do that as long as the guy with the sub 150 Forza can point me at the non competition bike the engine came out of.
None of this is going to be an issue if nobody protests, it's the false advertising that gets on my tits, and the fact that folk who have a vested interest in them, I.e. they have bought one or are selling them, insist that htey are bucket legal when they are not.

[Buckets4Me]

The 155 doesn't comply, I do realise that. But just make sure that if one does show up, that it is a 155 before ya tell them to fuck off.

the 140 didn't comply either as it is advertised as a race bike :facepalm:

FMX140 SE (special edition) uses GPX/YX 140cc racing engine with TWIN muffler design.
This machine rips and generate 12HP, your bike will dominate the 140cc class!


if we let one race engine in then we have to let them all in :shutup:


bickering is at all levels of the sport but you guys are asking us to let the rules slide just because it's a slow pos ?

(I'm a slow rider can I have an rs125 for the 150ss class?)

[Drew]

the 140 didn't comply either as it is advertised as a race bike :facepalm:

if we let one race engine in then we have to let them all in :shutup:

bit like the real racers (wonder how they feal about a superbike in the street stock class. even if I was still slow on it I'm sure I would be told to sod off)

bickering is at all levels of the sport but you guys are asking us to let the rules slide just because it's a slow pos ? (I'm a slow rider can I have an rs125 for the 150ss class?)

Ummm, so if anyone sells a bucket and advertises it as a race bike, it is no longer eligible because it's been advertised as a competition bike?

Anyone can write an ad saying whatever they like. It doesn't mean it's true, or that the item for sale was built for that purpose.

[Henk]

Ummm, so if anyone sells a bucket and advertises it as a race bike, it is no longer eligible because it's been advertised as a competition bike?

Anyone can write an ad saying whatever they like. It doesn't mean it's true, or that the item for sale was built for that purpose.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?
The rules state that the engine must be be based on a non competition engine, this has been interpreted in the past as must be road legal, somewhere. The rules were written this way as I understand it to keep costs reasonably under control.
It's widely understood amongst those who race buckets and / or have bothered to read the rule book. I'm beginning to get the feeling this thread is only being kept alive by those who feel that if the repeat falsehoods often enough they will become true, and those of us trying to prevent unwitting newbys mistakenly putting money into bikes that aren't class legal.

[Str8 Jacket]

Drew, it's pretty easy mate. Lot's of people have spent alot of time, effort and in some case $$ to build their bikes too the rules, why? Because buckets is as serious as it is fun. We get grids of 40 people at some race day's. The front running guy's have poured hours and hours into tuning and building their bikes to the rule....

What also sucks is that these bikes are being advertised as buckets where they are clearly not legal. The poor innocent person buying it may not know until he turns up to one of the meets where 40 odd bikes show up and he is protested and disqualified.

Bucket racers are mostly eccentric but also good mates - we play by the rules but we sure as fuck want to kick our mates arses. Play nice now eh!

[Drew]

Are you being deliberately obtuse?
The rules state that the engine must be be based on a non competition engine, this has been interpreted in the past as must be road legal, somewhere. The rules were written this way as I understand it to keep costs reasonably under control.



Drew, it's pretty easy mate. Lot's of people have spent alot of time, effort and in some case $$ to build their bikes too the rules,

Which is it, a cheap class, or one where ya need to spend lots to run at the front? Seems the reason for the rule is redundant now anyway.

Henk, what class of competition do you think the 140cc pit bikes were built for. Obtuse or otherwise, just because the importer has advertised it as being based on a competition motor, doesn't make it so.

Ya know I don't give a fuck though aye? I'm only making a bucket because I can't afford to race properly.

Hells, I am playing nice.

[Yow Ling]

Which is it, a cheap class, or one where ya need to spend lots to run at the front?

Well its neither of those, it just a class with a set of rules that apply equally to everyone, just like all the other classes, nowhere in the rules does it say it has to be cheap or expensive. The fact some people spend more or less is just a choice. Money doesnt make you fast

[Drew]

Money doesnt make you fastNa, but fast bikes help.

[Str8 Jacket]

Na, but fast bikes help.

Well then you spend the $$.

In comparison to 'big bike' racing you don't need too spend nearly as much but it's motorsport so yeah someone will always have the best. if the rules aren't adhered too it don't make it fair, equal opportunity and all. FWIW - Hamish is a poor student who is one of the fastest riders and has spent time and saved $$ to develop his bike, anyone can do it but without the rules - where do you stop??

[Henk]

Which is it, a cheap class, or one where ya need to spend lots to run at the front? Seems the reason for the rule is redundant now anyway.

Henk, what class of competition do you think the 140cc pit bikes were built for. Obtuse or otherwise, just because the importer has advertised it as being based on a competition motor, doesn't make it so.

Ya know I don't give a fuck though aye? I'm only making a bucket because I can't afford to race properly.

Hells, I am playing nice.

Given that a $300 shitter isn't going to be competive the way they used to be it's still a shitload cheaper than it would be if it was open slather except for capacity. The fast guys down your way are all running on well sorted bikes but I'm guessing they would have spent a lot more on build and maintenance if things were completely open. I'm guessing there aren't all that many sub $1000 CRF150Rs on the market, and that would be the engine of choice for the sharp end if they were legal in my opinion.

As for what the 140s have been designed to race in I don't know or care to be honest but I've yet to see one with a number plate. The dude selling them on TM seems to have toned his adds down a bit, they originally stated that they had been designed and built with bucket racing in mind. A statement that sort of stands on it's own merit as far as eligibility goes as far as I'm concerned.

[TZ350]

Seems the reason for the rule is redundant now anyway.

Why is the rule redundant?

[jasonu]

Are you being deliberately obtuse?
The rules state that the engine must be be based on a non competition engine, this has been interpreted in the past as must be road legal, somewhere. The rules were written this way as I understand it to keep costs reasonably under control.
It's widely understood amongst those who race buckets and / or have bothered to read the rule book. I'm beginning to get the feeling this thread is only being kept alive by those who feel that if the repeat falsehoods often enough they will become true, and those of us trying to prevent unwitting newbys mistakenly putting money into bikes that aren't class legal.

Not necessarily 'road legal'. Farm bikes for instance (TF100/125, Grasshopper) are not intended to be road legal but at the same time they ARE NOT intended for competition purposes or based on any competition motor and that makes then Bucket legal.
If you let one (Forza) grey area bike in that can (and will) lead to others wanting to race marginal machines.

BTW has there ever been an official protest made in the history of Buckets? I can't think of one.

[TZ350]

Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. ok ok but the RM is still out


CHAPTER 24

24 ROAD RACING - MINIATURE

24-1 The Miniature Road Racing class or `Bucket Racing’ as it is also known, shall be deemed
to include solo motorcycles and sidecars.

24-2 Motorcycles Technical:

24-2-1 Solo motorcycles shall have two engine capacity classes:
F4 2 stroke 55-100cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled
4 stroke 55-150cc
F5 2 stroke 0-50cc
4 stroke 0-100cc air cooled

24-2-2 Sidecars shall have one engine capacity class:
2 stroke 55-100cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled
4 stroke 55-150cc

24-2-3 The maximum capacity for rebored engines shall be:
F4 2 stroke 55-100cc - 104cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled - 130.5cc
4 stroke 55-150cc – 158.09cc
F5 2 stroke 0-50cc - 53cc
4 stroke 0-100cc - 104cc

24-2-4 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing,
Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no
restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve
springs or cooling system except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally
aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, which may be turbo or
supercharged.
F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm
carburettor, F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a
single 20mm carburettor.

24-2-5 Fuel: See 10-17-1
Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited.

24-2-6 Construction of Solo Motorcycles:
Miniature road racers are to be constructed in accordance with, and comply with, Chapter
10.

I see it says non compitition ....

""24-2-4 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles.""

[Buckets4Me]

Which is it, a cheap class, or one where ya need to spend lots to run at the front?

Hells, I am playing nice.

well for $2000 (cheaper than a good mountain bike. and that dosn't have a motor) you can run at the frount easily! (if you can ride)

now again am i allowed to run anrs125 in the 150ss class (no I dont think so) so why should we change or ignore the rules !

you may be playing nice. But so do polititions (and we know they dont play by our rules)



So it's a cheap class that wants to play by the rules.
can you name me anyone that has spent more than $5000 in a year of racing (about the price of a resonable road raceing pushbike and about the coast of tyres for the weekend for some realbikre racers)


when new saftey gear costs more than most bikes I would call it a cheap class

[Buckets4Me]

Henk, what class of competition do you think the 140cc pit bikes were built for. Obtuse or otherwise, just because the importer has advertised it as being based on a competition motor, doesn't make it so.


what class of competition was the fzr bast on .Not motocross thats for sure (and an rs125 honda is for kids 13-16 or small asians so can I use one of them?)
and was it the importer or the manufactor that claimed it was a race bike ?



24-2-4 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing,
Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted.

[all4A50s]

As far as I know you can use the very early RM80s and 100s as they came out as a kids farm bike.


can you name me anyone that has spent more than $5000 in a year of racing (about the price of a resonable road raceing pushbike and about the coast of tyres for the weekend for some realbikre racers)

Does the $5000 include labour?

[Drew]

I see it says non compitition ....

""24-2-4 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles.""

Well there you have it, black and white from the horses mouth, (so to speak).

These motors are derived form what? Shit box Honda step throughs.

Let me try a different tac here. If I bought 100 of the 140cc base model motors, and wanked the fuck out of them inside the rules of bucket classes, could I sell them as a crate motor to bucket racers? I think yes.

[Henk]

Does the $5000 include labour?

And fuel for the van and booze?

[Drew]

and booze?That's the budget well fucked!

[Yow Ling]

Well there you have it, black and white from the horses mouth, (so to speak).

These motors are derived form what? Shit box Honda step throughs.

Let me try a different tac here. If I bought 100 of the 140cc base model motors, and wanked the fuck out of them inside the rules of bucket classes, could I sell them as a crate motor to bucket racers? I think yes.

Yes but while you are wanking all over the motors you cant fit a competition head or close ratio competition transmission, nothing stopping you from forging a set of gears or casting your own head though

[jasonu]

As far as I know you can use the very early RM80s and 100s as they came out as a kids farm bike


Whose arse did you pull that load of shit from???
If you can show some sort of pukka proof to back that up ie a Suzuki brochure, Dave Trustrum will ride 3 laps at Kaitoke in the nick.

[gav]

Originally Posted by all4A50s
As far as I know you can use the very early RM80s and 100s as they came out as a kids farm bike


Whose arse did you pull that load of shit from???
If you can show some sort of pukka proof to back that up ie a Suzuki brochure, Dave Trustrum will ride 3 laps at Kaitoke in the nick.

Of course ... all early MX bikes were developed from kids farm bikes, don't ya know ? :facepalm:

[cave weta]

. If I bought 100 of the 140cc base model motors, and wanked the fuck out of them inside the rules of bucket classes, could I sell them as a crate motor to bucket racers? I think yes.

when you buy them by the hundred you you get veely veely nice pwice.

In fact the price is so cheap -that Im not going to put it here.

[Drew]

Yes but while you are wanking all over the motors you cant fit a competition head or close ratio competition transmission, nothing stopping you from forging a set of gears or casting your own head thoughThe point I'm making, is that the rules are worded, "derived from". I can straight import the hottest 150cc version those little asian fellas can make, and it is inside the rules by my interpretation.

Mores the point, it wont hold a candle to the fucked with FXR's and CBR's, so any homo that does protest it because a local ad said it was a competition motor, is gonna look like a right knob.

[Drew]

when you buy them by the hundred you you get veely veely nice pwice.

In fact the price is so cheap -that Im not going to put it here.I imagine the price would drop stupidly.

If I was serious about using one of these motors, I'd find a chinese distributor and send an email saying I wanted to sell them here.

Those guys send free samples ya know. If you email back saying it's bung and ya don't want them, they send you another five to tempt you. Provided of course there isn't someone near by selling them already. They must cost about twelve bucks each to make.

[cave weta]

Those guys send free samples ya know. If you email back saying it's bung and ya don't want them, they send you another five to tempt you.


Well you had better tell me which companies do that, I have not been able to find one.:shifty:

[Drew]

Well you had better tell me which companies do that, I have not been able to find one.:shifty:

Where ever Jimmy and his boss at the time were getting pit bikes from, sent the first couple for cost of shipping.

[speedpro]

Whose arse did you pull that load of shit from???
If you can show some sort of pukka proof to back that up ie a Suzuki brochure, Dave Trustrum will ride 3 laps at Kaitoke in the nick.

Are you still trying to get Dave naked?

[gav]

255689

Maybe see if you can get a free sample like this?

[Drew]

255689

Maybe see if you can get a free sample like this?Fuck that's cool!

[Henk]

Fuck that's cool!

Indeed it is, this is where someone with far too much knowledge pipes up and tells us it is a one off 19xx 50cc GP bike worth around the national debt.

[jasonu]

Are you still trying to get Dave naked?

It is not a case of trying. A couple of shots of chartrouse ususally does the trick...

[avgas]

can you name me anyone that has spent more than $5000 in a year of racing (about the price of a resonable road raceing pushbike and about the coast of tyres for the weekend for some realbikre racers)
Streetstock running Shinko's. Includes the cost of the bike and a set of rings.

[bucketracer]

No matter what bike shows up, if they get told to fuck off, make sure whoever does it can pick a specific rule as a reason.

It might come as a surprise but racing is not a right….

It doesn't matter how much MNZ likes you, its the organizers and stewards who get to decide who races, attitude as much as anything determines if you get to ride.

There is usually an ad hock group of experienced people at any race meet (whatever the class) that has the ear of the steward and organizers.

And if something about your bike is challenged, then it falls on the person presenting the bike to establish its eligibility.

If there is an objection, once the objectors have made their point to the organizer or steward and they take an interest, it won't be for the objector to prove you wrong, it will be you having to establish your right and your bike meets the rules, this can all be done informally but if it comes to it you will need to have some convincing evidence handy.

Sure if you don't like it you could push it through to MNZ and maybe even win there and make a few people eat dead rats, but remember, when making a prick of yourself, if the other guys don't want to ride with you, then nobody has to accept your entry at the next meeting, racing is not any ones right, your there because you have something positive to offer .......

[Drew]

It might come as a surprise but racing is not a right….

It doesn't matter how much MNZ likes you, its the organizers and stewards who get to decide who races, attitude as much as anything determines if you get to ride.

There is usually an ad hock group of experienced people at any race meet (whatever the class) that has the ear of the steward and organizers.

And if something on your bike is challenged on a technical point, then it falls on the person presenting the bike to establish its eligibility.

If there is an objection, once the objectors have made their point to the organizer or steward and they take an interest, it won't be for the objector to prove you wrong, it will be you having to establish your right and your bike meets the rules, this can all be done informally but if it comes to it you will need to have some convincing evidence handy.

Sure you could push it through to MNZ and maybe even win there and make a few people eat dead rats, but remember, when making a prick of yourself, if the other guys don't want to ride with you, then nobody has to accept your entry at the next meeting, racing is not a right .......

Discrimination is what you are describing there buddy, and we have books and books of law, making sure it doesn't happen. And should it happen, the discriminator gets a good case of the bum aids for his or her trouble.

But I digress, I am mearly playing devils advocate in this thread. A lot of guys post like they are speaking gospel, they could be wrong.

[bucketracer]

Nobody has to invite you to their party, show me the law that says you have an inalienable right to ride at whatever race meet you turn up to. If they don't want you they don't have to have you, automatic admission to any race meet is not your legal or even moral right.

Any particular rider is there because they have something to offer, for most of us thats our entry fee and a positive attatude. So is your attatude worth the $35 (entry fee at Mt Welly) to the organiser and the other riders the organiser enjoys having there.

Its the organizers right to have whom they like at their party and the stewards duty to ensure the party is run safely and in accordance with the governing body's rules.

I maintain, its the people who run the race meetings "Right to Choose" whom to dance with .....


Discrimination is what you are describing there buddy, and we have books and books of law, making sure it doesn't happen.

Not accepting an entry from someone behaving badly, you say its illegal "Discrimination" lets see if anyone else agrees with you.

[jasonu]

Discrimination is what you are describing there buddy, and we have books and books of law, making sure it doesn't happen. And should it happen, the discriminator gets a good case of the bum aids for his or her trouble.

But I digress, I am mearly playing devils advocate in this thread. A lot of guys post like they are speaking gospel, they could be wrong.

How is it descrimination?
If a guy shows up with a bike that one or more other members think is not within the rules and they point that out to the organisers to either confirm or deny, then surely that is the system working as it should not descrimination.

[F5 Dave]

At the end of the day I think what is giving everyone Bum Aids as Drew so eloquently puts it is that as a group we are all happy if people want to race & have fun, but get pissed off by someone advertising a dubious legality bike & then telling us its legal.

No one likes to get told what to do, it pisses people off. Hence why this silly thread is still going.

[Buckets4Me]

No one likes to get told what to do, it pisses people off. Hence why this silly thread is still going.

that and it's fun :shutup:

[Dutchee]

Whose turn is it anyway for popcorn????????????? (yeah, it was another thread it was mentioned that AJ had to put his popcorn down, and I figured the bowl's empty here and we need more).

Not sure if it was this thread or another one where Choppa/Drew commented we whinge more than real bike racers - we read the rules, we follow the rules and talk about whether we can get around a rule or how to make something legal. We don't have large chequebooks to open and protest other riders, we come in here and chat amongst ourselves. Might take longer than an official protest, but it's a hell of a lot of fun, until the same old things crop up with newbies.

Anyway, on that note, shouldn't this thread be called MINI-MOTARD FOR F4/F5 RACING? as buckets is embarrassing and so un-cool.
Righto, popcorn's ready, time to go :) (AJ your shout of popcorn next). Hands popcorn round.

[Drew]

Not sure if it was this thread or another one where Choppa/Drew commented we whinge more than real bike racers - we read the rules, we follow the rules and talk about whether we can get around a rule or how to make something legal. We don't have large chequebooks to open and protest other riders, we come in here and chat amongst ourselves. Might take longer than an official protest, but it's a hell of a lot of fun, until the same old things crop up with newbies.

Protest costs $50 deposit which you get back...Unless you're wrong, then you owe another $450.

There is no clear reason however, that one of these bikes displacing less than 150cc is not legal. Just lots of people saying it isn't because it's a competition motor.

'Derived' is the word in the rules, on which I base my argument.

[avgas]

The bucket class sounds like BEARS for girl scouts.
Same B.S. but slightly sugar coated.

Kinda sad really - there used to be some great articles about Buckets back in the days.

[Yow Ling]

Protest costs $50 deposit which you get back...Unless you're wrong, then you owe another $450.

There is no clear reason however, that one of these bikes displacing less than 150cc is not legal. Just lots of people saying it isn't because it's a competition motor.

'Derived' is the word in the rules, on which I base my argument.


There would appear to be other words as well, anyway how does this affect you you dont currently race a bucket

[Moooools]

Protest costs $50 deposit which you get back...Unless you're wrong, then you owe another $450.

There is no clear reason however, that one of these bikes displacing less than 150cc is not legal. Just lots of people saying it isn't because it's a competition motor.

'Derived' is the word in the rules, on which I base my argument.

You are taking the word 'Derived' so far out of context it is a joke. You have forgotten the the rule is:

24.2 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles.

motorcycles
motorcycles
motorcycles
motorcycles
motorcycles

I would take this tho mean that the engine you start with must have at some point been in a non competition motorcycle, or been a direct original replacement for a non competition motorcycle.
The rule says nothing about engines being derived from non competition engines at all. The word is motorcycle.


It only looks like this on kb because people with little or no knowledge of bucket racing come on here and spew shit. (I was the same, maybe still am)

I don't think I have heard the rules mentioned once at the track. Everybody is just there for the racing... and shit talking in the pits.
Nobody gives a cares until people who don't race buckets try to tell them that they are wrong.

[F5 Dave]

The bucket class sounds like BEARS for girl scouts.
Same B.S. but slightly sugar coated.

Kinda sad really - there used to be some great articles about Buckets back in the days.
Sounds like the warblings of some old man. If you're going to be a patronising kunt, why don't you have sex and moove on?

[bucketracer]

Kinda sad really - there used to be some great articles about Buckets back in the days.

If your into technical 2-stroke stuff, there is plenty on the Team ESE thread.

[avgas]

Sounds like the warblings of some old man. If you're going to be a patronising kunt, why don't you have sex and moove on?
Possibly correct. But seriously do you remember what buckets used to be about.

I'll give you a hint it has something to do with the name.

Now its the 100/125gp! :laugh:

Not even streetstock was that 'invested'.

[Yow Ling]

Possibly correct. But seriously do you remember what buckets used to be about.

I'll give you a hint it has something to do with the name.

Now its the 100/125gp! :laugh:

Not even streetstock was that 'invested'.

Television used to be black and white, things change , get used to it

You could still run an old style bucket in pre 82

Even 500 Gp bikes moved along when change came along

Streetstock is in the process of being killed off by MNZ

[F5 Dave]

Possibly correct. But seriously do you remember what buckets used to be about.

I'll give you a hint it has something to do with the name.

Now its the 100/125gp! :laugh:

Not even streetstock was that 'invested'.

I've raced buckets every year since about 88. So yes, a sight more than you do, so don't tell us what you think its about, I don't give a fuck how you think it should be.

Its about those racing & what they think it is about.

Who is sader? Those dudes out in a field trying to stay awake playing cricket, - or the guys I was forced to listen to over the intercom at the track a couple of weeks ago on sport radio talking about those guys in the field playing cricket. <_<



I was at a working bee & some old twat cranked this up. I was considering ripping my spleen out my throat as the only reasonable course of action to effect an escape.

[koba]

Protest costs $50 deposit which you get back...Unless you're wrong, then you owe another $450.

There is no clear reason however, that one of these bikes displacing less than 150cc is not legal. Just lots of people saying it isn't because it's a competition motor.

'Derived' is the word in the rules, on which I base my argument.

I typed the following post at work without access to KB, consequently it dosn't take in to consideration replys after Drews post quoted above.
It is not a direct reply to Drew, although it does address a point raised by him.


"Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles." is a pre-requisite that any engine MUST meet to be considered legal.
Being derived from a non competition engine isn't a garantee of eligability.

Say, for example, Cadet kart engines are derived from a chainsaw motor, thus making it "derived from non- competition" (Please ignore the "motorcycles" part for the sake of this example..)
This engine is still disqualified because it is a Go-Kart motor, which is specifically excluded later in the rules under "Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted."

So, to be eligible an engine MUST be derived from a non-competition motorcycle and CAN'T be a Motorcross, Enduro or Kart engine.

Now, a Forza engine isn't explicitly a Motorcross or Enduro engine. (It certainly isn't a Kart engine!)
However, if it actully came to a protest past cases show that MNZ will generally rule based on THEIR interperetation of the rule in question.
This could go any way, depending on who puts forward arguments, how well they do it and possibly even which way the wind is blowing.
The outcome is anyones guess.

http://www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz/newsDetail.aspx?SectionID=29&ArticleID=28927
Is an example of an MNZ board descision based on the wording of rules.

Taking a closer look at "Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles." we will see that it really hinges on the interperetation of "derived".

derived:
past participle, past tense of de·rive (Verb)Verb:
1.Obtain something from (a specified source).
2.Base a concept on a logical extension or modification of (another concept).
(from google's dictionary thingy)

So this could be distilled to mean one of two things:
1) The engine type must have been once, in its' inital design, been a non competition motorcycle engine.
2) The specific engine in a bike must have been built as a non-competition engine.

If we take the first interperetation as correct and the intention of the rules the forza engines have a tenuous possibility of being considered legal IF the engine was originally designed as a non-competition unit AND it isn't disqualified on other grounds.
However, the second interperetation is much more likely to be considered correct as it is more logical and clearly definable. It is much more likely to have been the intention of the rule makers at the time and, most importantly, it is consistent with the practical interperetation of the rule.
If the second interpertation of the meaning behind "derived" is taken to be correct the FORZA bikes, both 140 and 150cc are both not eligable as buckets.


The fact people are putting forward an argument also makes it a FACT there is some contention over the legality of even the 140cc model.

This validates earlier concerns that have been expressed by a number of posters.
Concerns that some would-be enthusiast will purchase one of these bikes without being aware that there is some disagreement of the class eligibility of the machine.


The likelyhood of problems arising has somewhat been mitigated by the re-wording of the ad for the 155 (now a Potential bucket racer)
and the open discussion on this forum.
Hopefully any potential purchasers will read it, understand the well intentioned concerns of people who might otherwise be misunderstood and decide whether or not they are willing to take the risk of facing a protest.
A protest may not ever even happen, if it did it could go either way. That is really moot anyway as avoiding getting to that point is surely the best approach.

As for the wording of the rules:
They could be worded much better but we have to work with what we have got.
Most people with anything more than a cusory involvement in bucket racing generally seem to have a good idea of the spirit and intentions of the rules, guidance from them is a real good idea if unsure.

I'm quite keen to put this subject to bed.
So, would we all agree on the following conclusions?

1) The Forza bikes legality for bucket racing is in question
2) The 155 is less likely to be legal than the 140
3) Anyone protesting one of these bikes is likely to have a reasonable case
4) Anyone riding these bikes at a club meet is unlikely to meet any drama, other than associating with bucket racers
5) The ad, as first shown was misleading and has since been changed
6) If someone bought a bike on the basis of "potential bucket racer" without being aware of the nuances behind it they would have every right to hate the seller and perhaps have a basis for legal action.

[Drew]

There would appear to be other words as well, anyway how does this affect you you dont currently race a bucketAt the moment it doesn't, I'm using this for entertainment instead.


You are taking the word 'Derived' so far out of context it is a joke. You have forgotten the the rule is:

24.2 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles.

motorcycles
motorcycles
motorcycles
motorcycles
motorcycles

I would take this tho mean that the engine you start with must have at some point been in a non competition motorcycle, or been a direct original replacement for a non competition motorcycle.
The rule says nothing about engines being derived from non competition engines at all. The word is motorcycle.


It only looks like this on kb because people with little or no knowledge of bucket racing come on here and spew shit. (I was the same, maybe still am)

I don't think I have heard the rules mentioned once at the track. Everybody is just there for the racing... and shit talking in the pits.
Nobody gives a cares until people who don't race buckets try to tell them that they are wrong.Oh yip, they might be derived from competition WSB, (World Stepthough Bikes)?

But I'm just spouting shit, because I haven't raced my bike yet.

I apparently don't get the ability to read or think untill I have.

My how you have a low opinion of those of us not in the elite group that race F4/5.

Can't wait to be part of the clique.

[Moooools]

At the moment it doesn't, I'm using this for entertainment instead.

Oh yip, they might be derived from competition WSB, (World Stepthough Bikes)?

But I'm just spouting shit, because I haven't raced my bike yet.

I apparently don't get the ability to read or think untill I have.

My how you have a low opinion of those of us not in the elite group that race F4/5.

Can't wait to be part of the clique.

Don't twist my words.
I am not saying that you do not have the ability to interoperate rules, just that you have absolutely zero context with which to base opinions on.
Get your bike racing. Meet the people. See what buckets is actually about.
Then start shit fights to your heart's content.

[Drew]

Don't twist my words.
I am not saying that you do not have the ability to interoperate rules, just that you have absolutely zero context with which to base opinions on.
Get your bike racing. Meet the people. See what buckets is actually about.
Then start shit fights to your heart's content.I didn't twist anything.

My years of racing don't give me a base of context? I thought you guys said it was the guys racing real bikes that didn't give the proper respect.

You might be surprised how many of the guys down here I do know. And that I fully understand what the racing is about.

This aint a shit fight either, it's a discussion between people with a different position on the subject. I get personal in shit fights.

[Moooools]

I didn't twist anything.

My years of racing don't give me a base of context? I thought you guys said it was the guys racing real bikes that didn't give the proper respect.

You might be surprised how many of the guys down here I do know. And that I fully understand what the racing is about.

This aint a shit fight either, it's a discussion between people with a different position on the subject. I get personal in shit fights.

Alright last reply before I get fed up.

So far in this argument you have done two things:

1. Told us that we are stupid for arguing like this.
2. Continued the argument endlessly.

I think it is fairly obvious you have very little context. You assume you know the effect that allowing this bike into the mix as a legal bike (as opposed to allowing it but on the grounds the rider knew it was not legal) would affect the class.

Oh and are you kidding, about the respect thing. I would totally respect you if this was an argument about Superbike racing, but it isn't. And although I am pretty new to buckets, you are also arguing against guys who have been bucketing for over 20 years. Do you really think that they haven't read the rules a few times by now.

Get to the track and ride that damn bike of yours.

Alright I am done. Been arguing too much on kb recently.

[Grumph]

Possibly correct. But seriously do you remember what buckets used to be about.

I'll give you a hint it has something to do with the name.

Now its the 100/125gp! :laugh:

Not even streetstock was that 'invested'.

In Sequence....yes, I remember what buckets used to be about - and dreading having them at combined meetings because of the arguments about poor presentation and condition - thankfully that is past now due to the general upgrading of the bucket fleet.

100/125 GP - yes, agree, and at least in the SI that's a damm good thing too as they now run on big circuits. i look forward to the class becoming more "professional" in the standards of what's raced and how it's presented.

Streetstock was never intended as a "fiddlers formula" - buckets always has been and always will be thanks to the way the rules are promulgated. IMO at least as many mechanics/engineers/developers have come out of buckets as riders...and it's well known how many top riders have started in buckets.

[TZ350]

Totaly Agree ......

[Drew]

Alright last reply before I get fed up.

So far in this argument you have done two things:

1. Told us that we are stupid for arguing like this.
2. Continued the argument endlessly.

I think it is fairly obvious you have very little context. You assume you know the effect that allowing this bike into the mix as a legal bike (as opposed to allowing it but on the grounds the rider knew it was not legal) would affect the class.

Oh and are you kidding, about the respect thing. I would totally respect you if this was an argument about Superbike racing, but it isn't. And although I am pretty new to buckets, you are also arguing against guys who have been bucketing for over 20 years. Do you really think that they haven't read the rules a few times by now.

Get to the track and ride that damn bike of yours.

Alright I am done. Been arguing too much on kb recently.I never said anyone was stupid, (I was saving that for when it turns into a shit fight), I said there's a lot of pissing and moaning about fuck all.

OK, I am not gonna argue the symantics of what context I do or don't have. I would love to know what it is you think will happen to the sport by letting the motardy things run though.

So when it comes to buckets racing, you don't respect my view? Even though the miniature motorcycle racing fraternity, scream blue fuckin murder that they should be taken just as seriously as real racers, because it's essentially the same thing. Bike racing!

How many times do I need to read three paragraphs, do you think, to get the gist of it?

I'll conceed to not having experience of past bikes that have been disallowed, but only in the same sentence as I recall several guys from the scene reminiscing over bikes that shouldn't have been allowed, but were.

I will get to the track and ride my bike. It's mostly through a sense of loyalty to a good friend who helped me out a lot with bits, and the stellar chap who let me buy my motor for what it owed him before he'd used it. Other than that I could take it or leave it. At least untill some more real racers come along with me for the giggle.

[jasonu]

I'll conceed to not having experience of past bikes that have been disallowed, but only in the same sentence as I recall several guys from the scene reminiscing over bikes that shouldn't have been allowed, but were.



Who/what bikes were these you mention?
Pre 1997 when I was involved I cannot think of any that would fit that description.
Not being a wanker (this time anyway), just curious.

[Drew]

Who/what bikes were these you mention?
Pre 1997 when I was involved I cannot think of any that would fit that description.
Not being a wanker (this time anyway), just curious.Dunno who or what, just remember a bunch of guys having a laugh, because the guy riding it was poo and he was so far back no one cared. It was some time ago by all accounts.

Bet ya anything you like though, that some of the bikes out theere aren't strictly inside the rules.

[ajturbo]

Drew.. your a pussy that cannot do wheel stands.

Koba... wow.. that was clear

jasonu... 1977... frig your OLD

Moools... :facepalm:

thats about right?

[Moooools]

Moools... :facepalm:



Is that the same face you were making when I was beating you on the EN125?

[Str8 Jacket]

Is that the same face you were making when I was beating you on the EN125?

Ha, you were both beaten by a Girl! Well, in one race anyway.... :facepalm:

[ajturbo]

Is that the same face you were making when I was beating you on the EN125?


Ha, you were both beaten by a Girl! Well, in one race anyway.... :facepalm:

no comment

but my 50 over took you ..once :facepalm:

[Moooools]

Hey now that was a tyre problem. Will have to have some serious talks with my suppliers.

[Str8 Jacket]

Hey now that was a tyre problem. Will have to have some serious talks with my suppliers.

Excuses will not be tolerated, that's just pussy talk!

[Buckets4Me]

Dunno who or what, just remember a bunch of guys having a laugh, because the guy riding it was poo and he was so far back no one cared. It was some time ago by all accounts.

Bet ya anything you like though, that some of the bikes out theere aren't strictly inside the rules.

I remember an rg150. But he never got any point and his dad (Real racer) smashed it good second lap of the 2 hour (it never came back)

and I do remember 3 or 4 mini motos as well :facepalm: (I think they did get points but most upgraded to real buckets. Ie more than 4 gears)

[goivy26]

I purchased my FMX140 sometime ago with the express intention of of racing it in F4,

I read the rules and only after that made the decission to purchase one because....

It is under 150cc 4 stroke

And that the engine was not derived from competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors.

There is no mention of Pit bike as that is what my Forza (not the 155) is, a PIT BIKE.

The engine is derived from an ancient Honda Monkey, CT90-110 etc etc and is the basis of dozens of Road, Dirt, Kids or Pit Bike used out there as well as not so many full competion Racing Pit Bike throughout the world.

Previously in this thread someone mentioned that in the advertising for my FMX140 is that the FMX was an abreviation for Forza Motocross, and I conceed that is the case but it is still a PIT BIKE and wouldn't you then have to conceed that the MX in the title of a Yamaha MX 80 or 100 (dirty little 2 stroke from many moons ago that I learned to ride on) is an abreviation for Motocross? Don't take advertising hype as gospel.

My co-rider brought a FMX155 the weekend that we did the 2hr because he had so much, before he did he checked with the steward who told him it would be fine as it was under the 158.09cc.

On reading the rules I would agree that it is not.

So on that point he and I spoke about it and he is going to purchase a Standard 140 engine to keep it all above board and within the rules as we are not there to piss anyone off we just want to race and have a bit of fun.

So what I want to know is are we going to have any problems when we show up to race at the remaining North Island rounds? Are we going to get protested ?

Ivan

[ajturbo]

Ivan .. Ivan ..Ivan..:facepalm: :bash: :pinch:

i have nothing to add to be honest,
except

My GT125 with STD carbs is deemed to be illegal due to the fact the carbs are 0.000005m3 too big..but everyone feels sorry for me and let me race it... knowing full well that if i ever win, it will be because everyone else has fallen off:innocent:

[Drew]

I purchased my FMX140 sometime ago with the express intention of of racing it in F4,

...
...

So what I want to know is are we going to have any problems when we show up to race at the remaining North Island rounds? Are we going to get protested ?

IvanThis should get a good response. Someone might actually have to think about both sides of the coin for once.

[Drew]

My co-rider brought a FMX155 the weekend that we did the 2hr because he had so much, before he did he checked with the steward who told him it would be fine as it was under the 158.09cc.

On reading the rules I would agree that it is not.

So on that point he and I spoke about it and he is going to purchase a Standard 140 engine to keep it all above board and within the rules as we are not there to piss anyone off we just want to race and have a bit of fun.

So what I want to know is are we going to have any problems when we show up to race at the remaining North Island rounds? Are we going to get protested ?

IvanWhat's funny, is that if your mate gets a standard 140 motor, use the head of the 155 and all the fruity bits.

[koba]

This should get a good response. Someone might actually have to think about both sides of the coin for once.

Perhaps not the sort of response you expect because you either haven't read or haven't understood alot of the replies already.

Most of the replies that put the bike as illegal are out of concern for the unwary purchaser, which doesn't really make it a heads or tails situation from that viewpoint.

[koba]

So on that point he and I spoke about it and he is going to purchase a Standard 140 engine to keep it all above board and within the rules as we are not there to piss anyone off we just want to race and have a bit of fun.

So what I want to know is are we going to have any problems when we show up to race at the remaining North Island rounds? Are we going to get protested ?

Ivan

Ivan,
Welcome.
I'm sure you will have a bloody good time if you race at the North Island rounds.
I can't speak for everyone and may no guarantees but I would suggest worries about hangovers are more pertinent than worries about protests.

You may even enjoy it enough to justify buying an FXR or the like in the future.

[Drew]

Perhaps not the sort of response you expect because you either haven't read or haven't understood alot of the replies already.

Most of the replies that put the bike as illegal are out of concern for the unwary purchaser, which doesn't really make it a heads or tails situation from that viewpoint.Care to eleborate on that a bit Malcom, reads a bit pretentious and condescending for my liking the way it sits.

I have asked repeatedly what exactly about the bike, those who think they're in the know consider is not inside the rules for the class. And not one of the replies gives a definitive answer.

If no one can say why it isn't allowed with any certainty, the bike is allowed.

The 155 is over the capacity limit, (untill you buy a 140 barrel and bore it out that is), but the bikes are not derived from a competition machine. It's simple as far as I can see. I really have tryed to look at this from all angles, but cannot find any reasonable excuse to exclude them.

I can see that the orignal trademe listing was misrepresenting the 155cc bike though, just incase someone else wants to call me a moron for not getting that bit.

[F5 Dave]

ok try this on for welks. and no I don't know what a welk is, sort of like some sort of sea crustation but not quite.


ok so if a manufacturer was to manufacture a copy of an FXR150 but fitted some fruity racing bits & sold it as a competition bike, well it is illegal. It was derived from an FXR. But clearly sold as a competition model.

If its a direct copy of a FXR & sold as a playbike or roadbike then that would be legal. This is how I see the Longchin, but I try not to get too close to one. Fortunately Fishe makes that part easy.

How close to either of these examples is the bike in question? Heck I dunno, but therein lies the rub. If it was sold & expected to survive forever then you'd lean to playbike. But you could offer a full house 13,000rpm monster plonked on the humble cases. Derived from? well. . .
That's why the rules don't allow competition engines, it tidies things up in the only sensible manner.

Indeed the Japs often made race kits for their humble road 100s & 50s for racing (usually in asian markets). Of course the Airforce boys had access to this sort of stuff on their postings in the 80s & the rules were made to dissuade people using these parts.

[Drew]

ok try this on for welks. and no I don't know what a welk is, sort of like some sort of sea crustation but not quite.


ok so if a manufacturer was to manufacture a copy of an FXR150 but fitted some fruity racing bits & sold it as a competition bike, well it is illegal. It was derived from an FXR. But clearly sold as a competition model.

If its a direct copy of a FXR & sold as a playbike or roadbike then that would be legal. This is how I see the Longchin, but I try not to get too close to one. Fortunately Fishe makes that part easy.

How close to either of these examples is the bike in question? Heck I dunno, but therein lies the rub. If it was sold & expected to survive forever then you'd lean to playbike. But you could offer a full house 13,000rpm monster plonked on the humble cases. Derived from? well. . .
That's why the rules don't allow competition engines, it tidies things up in the only sensible manner.

Indeed the Japs often made race kits for their humble road 100s & 50s for racing (usually in asian markets). Of course the Airforce boys had access to this sort of stuff on their postings in the 80s & the rules were made to dissuade people using these parts.I understand your point. I really do.

And all I'm saying by way of retort, is that there is no class for the motor to have been built to race in. Ergo, it is not a competition motor. Just a tickled up Honda step through, assembled with off the shelf bits, which happen to increase it's power output.

I'll stop winding everyone up for the sake of it now. I have had fun. Ta. :finger:

[F5 Dave]

Great, case closed. Nothing to see here, move along.

[Shorty_925]

Anyone keen? http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=442727968

[speedpro]

Indeed the Japs often made race kits for their humble road 100s & 50s for racing (usually in asian markets). Of course the Airforce boys had access to this sort of stuff on their postings in the 80s & the rules were made to dissuade people using these parts.

Indeed they did. In fact the Suzuki A100 race kit cylinders with a bridged exhaust port were available from Colemans in Wanganui, $15ea in '83-84 if I remember. We bought all 5 that they had. An Army buddy used one. We all knew but weren't making a big deal about it. The same Army buddy and I bought a full race kitted A100 for something like $50. I got the wheels for my AC50.

[Henk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bike

[goivy26]

And then? :blink:

[goivy26]

This is my engine http://www.lifan.com/English/Industry/content.html?bcc7b5c6-2253-4249-8b14-f0e8458a30ee

One day I may get a FXR or I may remove my niples using a belt sander .

Ps I think you guys are alright .

Ivan

[goivy26]

I copied it so all could see

A pit bike is a small off-road/on-road motorcycle originally used for riding around the pits or staging area of a motocross race. Since the early 2000s pit bike racing, a sport similar to motocross, has become popular in the United States, especially in Southern California. The term has also been applied to the use of bicycles in similar venues. (WIKAPEDIA).

The name pit bike originated from the use of a Honda Z50 to ride around the pit areas of dirt bike races and race events across the United States. The fairly cheap price and the mobility of these bikes made them easy to use at racing events. Popular dirt bike movies like the 2001 Crusty Demons of Dirt 3 show how these small motorcycles can be used to do things other than just riding back and forth in the pits. A part of this movie shows people taking huge bicycle jumps on a Z50 in someone’s back yard.[1] This movie and movies like it made people realize what these little bikes were capable of. It did not take long for the pit bike trend to catch on.

In 2002 Kawasaki came out with the KLX110. This bike, as with Honda’s XR50, was designed for smaller riders. The 110 is faster and larger than an XR50, so it needs fewer modifications to make it comfortable for bigger riders. Pit bike riders realized this and started moving to the KLX110.

I am still going to build the 150/RM85 Motard !!!!!!! because I am special!!!

Ivan:Police:

[Henk]

What I was getting at was that pit bikes in their various guises started out as modified xr50s but ended up as purpose built bikes for pit bike racing. A bit like full size motards started out as modified dirt bikes and are now purpose built race bikes.
The pittster pro, Forza and their ilk were designed for pit bike racing, not as a kids trail bike, hence all the discussion.
My initial objection was and is that these are being marketed as legal when at best they fall into a grey area, are you likely to get protested on the grounds of legality, probably not, but when for the same price or less you can get a bike that does fall completely within the rules I don't see the point.
Turn up at the NI rounds, I'm sure you'll get a ride, worst case I Can see is that you'll be excluded from the points, you'll still have a an awesome weekend away getting a feel for new tracks.
I'll be at Toke Nd the only thing I'll be able to ride there is a flag point. Dibs on turn 2

[Yow Ling]

I guess this is the kinda stuff we trying to keep out

http://www.ooracing.com/store/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=131

[Buckets4Me]

I understand your point. I really do.

And all I'm saying by way of retort, is that there is no class for the motor to have been built to race in.
I'll stop winding everyone up for the sake of it now. I have had fun. Ta. :finger:

haha and there is a class they race in :finger:

so now the pit bikes have gone from being so so to all out illegal :facepalm: so much for your wind up

Motocross Motocross is the most common discipline of pit bikes. Before someone begins racing their pit bike, they need to upgrade their suspension from stock. With jumps putting you 10+ feet in the air, motocross has a very high chance of injury. Knobby tires are a must for any dirt racing.
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pit_bike&action=edit&section=8)] Supermoto Supermoto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermoto) is slowly being taken over by pocket bikes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocketbike_racing). that generally have speeds up to 60 miles per hour. Slick tires are an absolute must for any avid supermoto racer. Being the fastest paced discipline with speeds up to 60 miles per hour, Supermoto generally has the most serious injuries.
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pit_bike&action=edit&section=9)] Pit Park Pit park is perhaps the newest discipline for pit bikes. Pit park originally started with people taking a pit bike to skateparks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skatepark) and riding around like BMXers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freestyle_BMX). Most skateparks do not allow pit bikes because the torque can tear up the wood. Metal and concrete parks are the best for pit park. Slick tires are preferred but knobby tires can still be used. The dangers are similar to the injuries of BMX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMX).
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pit_bike&action=edit&section=10)] Street Street riding involves being able to maneuver any obstacle that is thrown at you. In certain countries pit street is illegal on sidewalks. Most police will take pit bikes more seriously than a skateboarder skating an illegal area, because it is motorized. Obstacles can include stairs, ledges, curbs, walls, and anything else not meant to be ridden on with bikes. Pegs are a huge plus for bunny hops (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunny_hop_(cycling)) and grinding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grind_(sport)). It can be very dangerous, as pit bikes are more energetic than a human powered BMX bicycle.
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pit_bike&action=edit&section=11)]

[TZ350]

Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. ok ok but the RM is still out


CHAPTER 24

24 ROAD RACING - MINIATURE

24-1 The Miniature Road Racing class or `Bucket Racing’ as it is also known, shall be deemed
to include solo motorcycles and sidecars.

24-2 Motorcycles Technical:

24-2-1 Solo motorcycles shall have two engine capacity classes:
F4 2 stroke 55-100cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled
4 stroke 55-150cc
F5 2 stroke 0-50cc
4 stroke 0-100cc air cooled

24-2-2 Sidecars shall have one engine capacity class:
2 stroke 55-100cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled
4 stroke 55-150cc

24-2-3 The maximum capacity for rebored engines shall be:
F4 2 stroke 55-100cc - 104cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled - 130.5cc
4 stroke 55-150cc – 158.09cc
F5 2 stroke 0-50cc - 53cc
4 stroke 0-100cc - 104cc

24-2-4 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing,
Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no
restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve
springs or cooling system except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally
aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, which may be turbo or
supercharged.
F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm
carburettor, F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a
single 20mm carburettor.

24-2-5 Fuel: See 10-17-1
Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited.

24-2-6 Construction of Solo Motorcycles:
Miniature road racers are to be constructed in accordance with, and comply with, Chapter
10.
I see it says non compitition ....

""24-2-4 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles.""

I see Drew has cleared up for us where Pit Bikes and the like sit regarding the rules as they are.

Pity as I liked the idea of crate engines being available for constructing specials.

[Drew]

Ok then, I'll concede they do have a class to compete in properly.

I wont bother arguing the word "derived" either.

Have fun.

[Drew]

Quick question, (not a wind up).

From everything that's been said here, what is being classed as competition parts, is basically something being commercially available to turn your bike into a racer. Is that right?

Does anyone have a plan on policing which motors were made with legal bits, and which were made with identical bits that are competition items?

[Yow Ling]

Quick question, (not a wind up).

From everything that's been said here, what is being classed as competition parts, is basically something being commercially available to turn your bike into a racer. Is that right?

Does anyone have a plan on policing which motors were made with legal bits, and which were made with identical bits that are competition items?

I think you must think that bucket guys are constantly checking who is legal and who isnt, reality is nobody checks , if somebody builds a bike that is so fast people will discuss it, apply a character test ( is he a vagina), go on KB and discuss it further and then still probably do nothing. What is to be gained by cheating in buckets?

The identical parts question, for example TF125 rods are the same part number as RM125 rods, no big deal, however a TM125 cylinder looks like a TF or TS cylinder but is cheating, you can put TM porting in a TF or ts cylinder and thats ok, see the rules are really clear hehe

[F5 Dave]

T. . .
One day I may get a FXR or I may remove my niples using a belt sander .
. . .

ok I better give you some rep for that:laugh::laugh:

[Buckets4Me]

Quick question, (not a wind up).

From everything that's been said here, what is being classed as competition parts, is basically something being commercially available to turn your bike into a racer. Is that right?

Does anyone have a plan on policing which motors were made with legal bits, and which were made with identical bits that are competition items?

yep no maby I dont know

Boyson reads :sweatdrop for a road bike legal or not (rd350)


now you are starting another fight :facepalm:

if it dosn't come from honda as a replacement part and you didn't make it (someone will say it's not legal)

aftermarket or race parts it's a bit gray

[Drew]

yep no maby I dont know

Boyson reads :sweatdrop for a road bike legal or not (rd350)


now you are starting another fight :facepalm:

if it dosn't come from honda as a replacement part and you didn't make it (someone will say it's not legal)

aftermarket or race parts it's a bit gray

Clear as mud then.

Ok, I'll run something else then. Anyone mind if I bring a pit bike powered by and RGV motor wearing slicks to a bucket track just to fuck around?

[Moooools]

Clear as mud then.

Ok, I'll run something else then. Anyone mind if I bring a pit bike powered by and RGV motor wearing slicks to a bucket track just to fuck around?

Yes.

These guys: http://kartsportwellington.co.nz/

Best ask them first.

[Buckets4Me]

Clear as mud then.

Ok, I'll run something else then. Anyone mind if I bring a pit bike powered by and RGV motor wearing slicks to a bucket track just to fuck around?

and if the kar guys are ok you can ride it in the lunch brake

or if the rgv is under 100cc maby we will let you race it

[Drew]

and if the kar guys are ok you can ride it in the lunch brake

or if the rgv is under 100cc maby we will let you race it

Won't bother with the bucket tracks with the RGV motard beast. I'm gonna extend the swing arm and drift it round real race tracks.

[Kickaha]

I'm gonna extend the swing arm and drift it round real race tracks.

Any track a Bucket is on is a "real race track" :finger:

[Drew]

Any track a Bucket is on is a "real race track" :finger:Fine ya fuckin pedant. On a full sized race track. That better?

The thing would be bloody lethal on too tight a track.

Gonna be mean for big jumps though.

[Yow Ling]

Clear as mud then.

Ok, I'll run something else then. Anyone mind if I bring a pit bike powered by and RGV motor wearing slicks to a bucket track just to fuck around?

RGV150 sleeved to 100cc, been done, not too clever. might go ok in a pit bike , go for it

[bucketracer]

Ok, I'll run something else then. Anyone mind if I bring a pit bike powered by and RGV motor wearing slicks to a bucket track just to fuck around?

The real question is, do you have the talent to put it all together, my guess is not..... I think talk is probably more your thing.

[Drew]

RGV150 sleeved to 100cc, been done, not too clever. might go ok in a pit bike , go for itI might not have been clear, I intend to power a pit bike with an RGV250 motor, and stretch the swingarm for doing skids.


The real question is, do you have the talent to put it all together, my guess is not..... I think talk is probably more your thing.You got me pegged. I can't ride, and dunno what a socket is.

[mossy1200]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-464623963.htm

quick question.If this had road wheels fitted is it legal? Im not to much in the know for buckets sorry.

[mossy1200]

Bump im having trouble getting advice

[richban]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-464623963.htm

quick question.If this had road wheels fitted is it legal? Im not to much in the know for buckets sorry.


............... no ............

[sidwyz]

A quote taken from MNZ's website

24.2 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm carburettor, F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted to carburetion equivalent to a single 20mm carburettor..

Does it meet those criteria? I don't know,
It isn't really a motorcross bike.
Enduro? I have no idea,
Competition? prob not, so maybe legal.

Im not the one to ask but you may be ok.
"majority opinion will let you know"

If it was legal, would you want to use it as a bucket?
I sure wouldn't,

The bike is designed to work on dirt, maybe, on a track I imagine would be rubbish due to suspension and geometry differences betweeen the dirt and sealed track.

There are other options on trademe all the time that would suit better.

Only thing I see worthy of that bike is the engine.
even then it still is prob rubbish and if it goes wrong will you get parts?

my advice leave it!!

[mossy1200]

............... no ............
If the motor is the same as a road bike made by the same people? Im picking your saying no due to enduro as its not what idd call and motorcross bike but wouldnt enduro rule out xl125 engines etc also.

[Yow Ling]

If the motor is the same as a road bike made by the same people? Im picking your saying no due to enduro as its not what idd call and motorcross bike but wouldnt enduro rule out xl125 engines etc also.

you had a bucket, you cut it up to make a trailer. I'm not sure if you can be trusted with a bucket

[koba]

Bump im having trouble getting advice

Not sure, it's likely to be a crap bike anyway, save the hassle and buy something known to be decent.
It may cost a bit more initially but will be more worth-while in the long run.

[mossy1200]

you had a bucket, you cut it up to make a trailer. I'm not sure if you can be trusted with a bucket

Sorry. It just happened.

[mossy1200]

Not sure, it's likely to be a crap bike anyway, save the hassle and buy something known to be decent.
It may cost a bit more initially but will be more worth-while in the long run.


It just looked like fun. The problem is if I start spending I dont stop. Idd rather just be having fun at a low cost.

[koba]

It just looked like fun. The problem is if I start spending I dont stop. Idd rather just be having fun at a low cost.

If you are going to start a spiral of frivolous spending, starting with a pile of poop like that means you would get a small fortune into it and still have a bike worse than the benchmark FXR.

Also don't forget re-sale value and sale-ability, unless the popularity of the class takes a massive dive you are likely to get your money back on a decent and well regarded bike.

[crazy man]

It just looked like fun. The problem is if I start spending I dont stop. Idd rather just be having fun at a low cost.what would you do if glen w gets into buckets

[F5 Dave]

No question, its a shitter best left to junior to thrash around the fields (not saying that is a bad thing by any stretch, wish I had one as a nipper).


Buy a ready bucket or a crashed FXR & some tyres & plastic bungs (made from scrap).

People put petrol in them & ride. If they get really hooked they buy an exhaust & some wider wheels.

[avgas]

Any track a Bucket is on is a "real race track" :finger:
except smaller

[avgas]

Could I race a TS125 in buckets?
http://www.suzukicycles.org/photos/suzuki-history/1971/1971_TS125_450.jpg

[F5 Dave]

Of course, it is a non competition model & indeed they used to be the staple fair. but if it looked that good I would probably have to beat you with a stick, unless you got me a 250 of the same vintage, which as I get older & softer in the head seem attracted to.

[jasonu]

I am really bloody sick and tired of these wankers that are trying to twist the rules or the wording of the rules or looking for loopholes in the rules just so they can enter (or sell) some sort of gray area machine. This is supposed to be a fun AND competitive class. It is not the world championships or something like the Americas Cup which was fucked up by that wanker Michael Fay and his lawyers when they found a 'loophole' in the rules and it has never been the same since.
How about buy a LEGAL ready built bucket or, for fucks sake buy an FXR and race that! It is not that hard to do it properly and still be completely within the rules. In the long run it will cost less, be less trouble, you will find heaps of advice from other racers for free and you wil not have anyone questioning the legality of your machine. And when you are done with your legal machine there will always be a buyer for it. It is not as if the rules need to be opened up because of lack of entries (like in the late 90's) or because one particular type of machine is totally dominant.
The presant rules work just fine as they are.

[avgas]

Of course, it is a non competition model & indeed they used to be the staple fair. but if it looked that good I would probably have to beat you with a stick, unless you got me a 250 of the same vintage, which as I get older & softer in the head seem attracted to.
So I can race and old trail bike in buckets but not a new trail bike? :blink:

(FYI if I had as classic TS125, 175, 185 or 250 they would become permanent artwork in the living room - just used it to raise i point)

[F5 Dave]

Your point was insipid. TS's were farm & play bikes & most were road registered.

The XR range at the time was an ill conceived idea by Honda that they could build a 4 stroke enduro, when clearly 2 strokes were lighter & more powerful. It was folly, but they pressed ahead & there you go. The 185s/200s 250s & 500s were marketed as Enduro bikes. heck in NZ they even had a 'competition exemption' for not having to run indicators. Think you'll still find it on our WOF rules somewhere.

The issue is; does that tar the smaller capacity bikes with the same brush? Before I would have said yes. Now I don't know.

[avgas]

I am really bloody sick and tired of these wankers that are trying to twist the rules or the wording of the rules or looking for loopholes in the rules just so they can enter (or sell) some sort of gray area machine. This is supposed to be a fun AND competitive class. It is not the world championships or something like the Americas Cup which was fucked up by that wanker Michael Fay and his lawyers when they found a 'loophole' in the rules and it has never been the same since.
How about buy a LEGAL ready built bucket or, for fucks sake buy an FXR and race that! It is not that hard to do it properly and still be completely within the rules. In the long run it will cost less, be less trouble, you will find heaps of advice from other racers for free and you wil not have anyone questioning the legality of your machine. And when you are done with your legal machine there will always be a buyer for it. It is not as if the rules need to be opened up because of lack of entries (like in the late 90's) or because one particular type of machine is totally dominant.
The presant rules work just fine as they are.
Technically speaking - Buckets didn't have many rules until about 15+ years ago. That was the attraction of them. Bucket racing was where men could be men, and women could also be men. Even leathers were optional.
Backyard heroes and the like.
People raced the dodgiest, rustiest POS they had.
Bucket class was for the bikes (and the riders) who didn't quite fit in elsewhere. Their bikes were too small for dirt/track racing, and they were too pissed/fat to go 250 class.
Sadly I feel most of that Nostalgia died when people started racing "bits of kit" in buckets in late 90's. Now its all "rules and regulation" - may as well call it the 140 gp class.

[avgas]

Your point was insipid. TS's were farm & play bikes & most were road registered.

The XR range at the time was an ill conceived idea by Honda that they could build a 4 stroke enduro, when clearly 2 strokes were lighter & more powerful. It was folly, but they pressed ahead & there you go. The 185s/200s 250s & 500s were marketed as Enduro bikes. heck in NZ they even had a 'competition exemption' for not having to run indicators. Think you'll still find it on our WOF rules somewhere.

The issue is; does that tar the smaller capacity bikes with the same brush? Before I would have said yes. Now I don't know.
Yes and No.
Back then you had F-all choice. You wanted a 125........very few 'road only' models available. Most trail/enduro bikes were reg'd......otherwise you got a motorcross bike.

So if a trail bike from 30 years ago race in buckets, why not one from now? Were they only let in the first place because back then there wasn't much choice?

Hell the motard concept wasn't even popular until a decade ago. Were the rules changed before or after motards became popular?

[Yow Ling]

Yes and No.
Back then you had F-all choice. You wanted a 125........very few 'road only' models available. Most trail/enduro bikes were reg'd......otherwise you got a motorcross bike.

So if a trail bike from 30 years ago race in buckets, why not one from now? Were they only let in the first place because back then there wasn't much choice?

Hell the motard concept wasn't even popular until a decade ago. Were the rules changed before or after motards became popular?

Is that you Drew?

[F5 Dave]

Technically speaking - Buckets didn't have many rules until about 15+ years ago. That was the attraction of them. Bucket racing was where men could be men, and women could also be men. Even leathers were optional.
Backyard heroes and the like.
People raced the dodgiest, rustiest POS they had.
Bucket class was for the bikes (and the riders) who didn't quite fit in elsewhere. Their bikes were too small for dirt/track racing, and they were too pissed/fat to go 250 class.
Sadly I feel most of that Nostalgia died when people started racing "bits of kit" in buckets in late 90's. Now its all "rules and regulation" - may as well call it the 140 gp class.
Both Jason & I were racing 20 years ago & that isn't our recollection at all.

Technically speaking there were bloody so rules. Rules were largely as they are now (I have old MNZ rulebooks in black & white from then) - just aircooled 125s added & 4 strokes got a 25cc bump up some years back.

[F5 Dave]

Yes and No.
Back then you had F-all choice. You wanted a 125........very few 'road only' models available. Most trail/enduro bikes were reg'd......otherwise you got a motorcross bike.

So if a trail bike from 30 years ago race in buckets, why not one from now? Were they only let in the first place because back then there wasn't much choice?

Hell the motard concept wasn't even popular until a decade ago. Were the rules changed before or after motards became popular?
Well you couldn't ride a 125 2 stroke in buckets back then, just 100s & TF & TS were std fare. They were tamely ported & reliable for many road miles as well as carting a sheep over the back paddocks for whatever farmers did to sheep in back paddocks.


Have a look inside a TM or early RM engine (& I have) & they are considerably different, even if you can fit a TM barrel on the top of an early (pre reed) TS. They were built for competition & didn't last like a road/play engine.

I mean the concept is quite simple. They wanted to exclude MX engines as it would become a little Johnny gets a MX80 & slots it into a chassis & makes all the TS's & MB100s obsolete, so then someone else buys this years MX & so on. Clearly they thought oh well bettter exclude enduro, & kart engines for the same reason. + those hot up racing kits made for commuter bikes for the Asian racing market that the Airforce boys could get their hands on. The concept is still valid. the rules haven't changed.

[crazy man]

Both Jason & I were racing 20 years ago & that isn't our recollection at all.

Tecnically speaking the Rules were largely as they are now (I have old MNZ rulebooks in black & white from then) just aircooled 125s added & 4 strokes got a 25cc bump up.that is the only 2 rules l know off to which have changed

[F5 Dave]

Well they dicked around with petrol when they reformatted the manual & got it a bit cocked up, but that got sorted out. Other thing is they made pistons & Cams open.

[crazy man]

what is the story with av gas l know once it only could be used with a 100cc four stroke . now seems ok to use with all ?

[F5 Dave]

Av is ok & has been for many years. For a while we got lumped in with Production racing specs, but that was a mistake & corrected. theoretically you couldn't even mix 2 stroke oil with the gas.

[jasonu]

Both Jason & I were racing 20 years ago & that isn't our recollection at all.

Agreed

Technically speaking there were bloody so rules. Rules were largely as they are now (I have old MNZ rulebooks in black & white from then) - just aircooled 125s added & 4 strokes got a 25cc bump up some years back.

Undisputable


Well you couldn't ride a 125 2 stroke in buckets back then, just 100s & TF & TS were std fare. They were tamely ported & reliable for many road miles as well as carting a sheep over the back paddocks for whatever farmers did to sheep in back paddocks.

Factual (125 2t's were not allowed until the late 90's)

Have a look inside a TM or early RM engine (& I have) & they are considerably different, even if you can fit a TM barrel on the top of an early (pre reed) TS. They were built for competition & didn't last like a road/play engine.

Yep
I mean the concept is quite simple. They wanted to exclude MX engines as it would become a little Johnny gets a MX80 & slots it into a chassis & makes all the TS's & MB100s obsolete, so then someone else buys this years MX & so on. Clearly they thought oh well bettter exclude enduro, & kart engines for the same reason. + those hot up racing kits made for commuter bikes for the Asian racing market that the Airforce boys could get their hands on. The concept is still valid. the rules haven't changed.

That is how it was described to me by some of those who were involved in the beginning.

that is the only 2 rules l know off to which have changed

Correct


what is the story with av gas l know once it only could be used with a 100cc four stroke . now seems ok to use with all ?

As I remember it av was alowed when, in the mid 90's, the petrol companies started importing petrol from Singapore (or someother asian shithole) and it didn't like to be burnt inside high performance 2 strokes (mine didn't like it) so as an alternative Av was allowed.


Technically speaking - Buckets didn't have many rules until about 15+ years ago.

Crap, except for a couple of afore mentioned changes the rules are as they have been for a long time.

That was the attraction of them. Bucket racing was where men could be men, and women could also be men. Even leathers were optional.

As long as I have been involved proper gear has always been mandatory.

Backyard heroes and the like.
People raced the dodgiest, rustiest POS they had.

True then and now.

Bucket class was for the bikes (and the riders) who didn't quite fit in elsewhere. Their bikes were too small for dirt/track racing, and they were too pissed/fat to go 250 class.

Disagree, Buckets has always been a stand alone class, not some sort of orphan throw back for no hopers or fatties. (well not always)...

Sadly I feel most of that Nostalgia died when people started racing "bits of kit" in buckets in late 90's. Now its all "rules and regulation" - may as well call it the 140 gp class.

Maybe, I don't know but it can certainly be quickly fucked up with a couple of rule changes.

[mossy1200]

what would you do if glen w gets into buckets

Get beat. The point I was making is I didnt want to be competitive and would like to blat a mini motard style bike around in b grade and not be tempted to start spending money I cant afford. Just doing it is good enough as a social event. Im more focussed on house savings and 3k+ for a fast well set up bucket doesnt fit the plan at the moment. Maybe after buying the house ill revisit the idea. The bike im talking about is a air cooled chinese 150 4 stroke prob 10hp. Im just curious why a loncin motor is ok when its listed on their website as a cart and dirt bike motor and the bike in question although newer than a xl isnt alot different engine wise.

[jasonu]

Get beat. The point I was making is I didnt want to be competitive and would like to blat a mini motard style bike around in b grade and not be tempted to start spending money I cant afford. Just doing it is good enough as a social event. Im more focussed on house savings and 3k+ for a fast well set up bucket doesnt fit the plan at the moment. Maybe after buying the house ill revisit the idea. The bike im talking about is a air cooled chinese 150 4 stroke prob 10hp. Im just curious why a loncin motor is ok when its listed on their website as a cart and dirt bike motor and the bike in question although newer than a xl isnt alot different engine wise.

But I have seen numerous LEGAL and potentially COMPETITIVE FXR150's for sale on Tardme for not much more than a grand.

[crazy man]

Get beat. The point I was making is I didnt want to be competitive and would like to blat a mini motard style bike around in b grade and not be tempted to start spending money I cant afford. Just doing it is good enough as a social event. Im more focussed on house savings and 3k+ for a fast well set up bucket doesnt fit the plan at the moment. Maybe after buying the house ill revisit the idea. The bike im talking about is a air cooled chinese 150 4 stroke prob 10hp. Im just curious why a loncin motor is ok when its listed on their website as a cart and dirt bike motor and the bike in question although newer than a xl isnt alot different engine wise.l think it does not cost much to be a top A grader on a gocart track if your a good rider but on the bigger gp tracks its were you need a faster better handleing bike which costs lots of time or money

[Kickaha]

Well they dicked around with petrol when they reformatted the manual & got it a bit cocked up,

They should have let four strokes run methanol while they were at it

[F5 Dave]

. . .The bike im talking about is a air cooled chinese 150 4 stroke prob 10hp. . .
So would likely blow up & cost heaps. Find a crashed FXR or someone getting out of buckets. That lonchin the Safa was selling seemed to be ok after he fixed its issues. Buy a shitter & be dissappointed with its performance & useability. Buy a 1k bike & get racing safely & not held back. That shitbox will sell for a lot more than $250 it is currently.

[Yow Ling]

This bucket was sold for $1200 last week, another 150 for tyres and its done, legal and capable of running up near front

262287

[TZ350]

They should have let four strokes run methanol while they were at it

And Strokers too, my engine would just love a bit of Methanol ....... :yes:

I recon I could crack 40rwhp with it and have a real tractor of a power curve, simulated it a few times just to amuse myself.

Its all to do with the latent heat of evaporation and charge cooling, and sure the engine would run cooler too. Been thinking of trying to emulate it with a little water and window cleaner to help the water atomize. Its on the list of things to try.

[mossy1200]

But I have seen numerous LEGAL and potentially COMPETITIVE FXR150's for sale on Tardme for not much more than a grand.

My answer was in context with what would you do if Glen Williams entered.Im sure i could get a fxr for 1200- 1500 which is 700-900 more than what I want to spend for a B grade bike seeing as my 6foot 5 body doesnt fit to well on one unless very modified.
i dont want to change your rules but I dont understand why one motor gets the nod and the next doesnt. Would it not be easier to have a list of accepted engines and anything not on that list be open to review.

[Kickaha]

And Strokers too, my engine would just love a bit of Methanol ....... :yes:

I recon I could crack 40rwhp with it and have a real tractor of a power curve, simulated it a few times just to amuse myself.

Its all to do with the latent heat of evaporation and charge cooling, and sure the engine would run cooler too. Been thinking of trying to emulate it with a little water and window cleaner to help the water atomize. Its on the list of things to try.

Have you thought of trying a thermal dispersant?

No point in giving metanol to two strokes when they already have a power advantage, I think they were specifically excluded from running it after someone was killed on a two stroke running it
Was it Cal Rayborn at Puke?

[speedpro]

His engine had a hole to the outside world. Even on petrol it probably would have seized. Very convenient excuse to ban methanol.

Years ago I tried having conversations with various MNZ types and got absolutely nowhere. It was dangerous, that was the end of it, no correspondance would be entered into. My McIntosh loved it.

It's actually harder to light than petrol, less volatile, so is actually safer. You do NOT want to run it lean though, things will get scorched. You can however run it something like 30% rich with little effect on power so there is no real excuse for getting into a lean condition, unless you're running a blown alcohol drag car with pyros and need EVERY last hp.

[Buddha#81]

This bucket was sold for $1200 last week, another 150 for tyres and its done, legal and capable of running up near front

262287

fark $1200 was a bargan......which welly guy has scored a gp winning weapon?

[Yow Ling]

Heres a nice wee motard thats ok for buckets

http://www.bikez.com/pictures/browse.php?bikeid=34546&pageno=2

[mossy1200]

Heres a nice wee motard thats ok for buckets

http://www.bikez.com/pictures/browse.php?bikeid=34546&pageno=2

looks good but 14inch wheels and idd have trouble getting all 6foot5 of me on that. Its a bit physically small.

[TZ350]

I think they were specifically excluded from running it after someone was killed on a two stroke running it. Was it Cal Rayborn at Puke?

Yes Cal Rayborn, given what went wrong, it could easily have happened whatever the bike was running on. The incident probably says more about the dangers of riding someone else’s bike than alcohol fuel.

[avgas]

Heres a nice wee motard thats ok for buckets
http://www.bikez.com/pictures/browse.php?bikeid=34546&pageno=2


Well you couldn't ride a 125 2 stroke in buckets back then, just 100s & TF & TS were std fare. They were tamely ported & reliable for many road miles as well as carting a sheep over the back paddocks for whatever farmers did to sheep in back paddocks.


Have a look inside a TM or early RM engine (& I have) & they are considerably different, even if you can fit a TM barrel on the top of an early (pre reed) TS. They were built for competition & didn't last like a road/play engine.

I mean the concept is quite simple. They wanted to exclude MX engines as it would become a little Johnny gets a MX80 & slots it into a chassis & makes all the TS's & MB100s obsolete, so then someone else buys this years MX & so on. Clearly they thought oh well bettter exclude enduro, & kart engines for the same reason. + those hot up racing kits made for commuter bikes for the Asian racing market that the Airforce boys could get their hands on. The concept is still valid. the rules haven't changed.
Hmmmmm interesting. I will take your word for it. It possible that what I was seeing those many moons ago was not people on the edge of the rules but those who could not get close to them.
Once again, sad really - as it means that my first suspicion was right - and it has turned into the Bucket GP (due to riders budgets) rather than the ride a basket (bucket-of-bolts......where the name comes from) I remember.

But alas off topic.

So just to clear this up then. Should the OP's bike been of slightly more road origin (aka lights and rego) it would have been legit?
Meaning under the current rules you could race a TF125 mudbug? (note to the op some of these go for as little as few hundred.......but you would have to change the sprockets)

And you can put a hot up kit on your bike provided its not from an the original bike or a race bike?

How long until there is an out of the box pre-prepped race bike to race in this class (similar to the Harley Dragster thing a while ago)?
So would these be allowed? I mean surely these should be if a modded FXR or RG is????:confused:
http://motomalaya.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/modified-135-lc-killvearn-transformers-400x300.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/_nt1knDXPQbQ/SIj9ZDLqJLI/AAAAAAAAAXY/W9mUlN7j4mw/s400/2007_10_25_bikepics-1066484-320.jpghttp://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Fw4BZ6O1Rrw/TER9PgCRNnI/AAAAAAAAHJs/tObV6asou7w/s800/orange+motorcycle.jpg

[jasonu]

i dont want to change your rules but I dont understand why one motor gets the nod and the next doesnt. Would it not be easier to have a list of accepted engines and anything not on that list be open to review.

Ask the MNZ to research it and come up with an appropriate list:killingme

[TZ350]

Once again, sad really - as it means that my first suspicion was right - and it has turned into the Bucket GP (due to riders budgets) ......

You overlooked Tuning and Engineering skill ...... and its importance is definitely ahead of the Budget just like it has always been.

And more so in this class than any other with the possible exception of Classics and maybe Sidecars.

[Bert]

Ask the MNZ to research it and come up with an appropriate list:killingme

Here's a really good list as a starting point (down the page after the fundamental rules of bucket racing)
(not an MNZ list of course :killingme but has been done by someone on the inside of bucket racing; to provide some guidance/clarity on the situation).

http://www.bucketracing.co.nz/bucketlist.php

[avgas]

You overlooked Tuning and Engineering skill ...... and its importance is definitely ahead of the Budget just like it has always been.
And more so in this class than any other with the possible exception of Classics and maybe Sidecars.
Your 100% correct.
Why call it buckets anymore?

[F5 Dave]

. . .
Once again, sad really - as it means that my first suspicion was right - and it has turned into the Bucket GP (due to riders budgets) rather than the ride a basket (bucket-of-bolts......where the name comes from) I remember.
. . .

No, -you're the one who is sad<_<. This is a class for racers who want to have fun at a reasonable cost, not people who moan from the sideline & proclaim that it is:. . . [wait for it] against the spirit of bucket racing - usually proclaimed by someone who finds that very cheap racing is still more than he wants to spend & would therefore bitch & moan & tell everybody about it until everyone gets brain damage.

I would therefore offer that you might find a sport like lawn bowls & let the rest of us continue having a bloody good time riding motorbikes as we have been doing for quite some years.

[avgas]

No, -you're the one who is sad<_<
I am. Hence my point. Why call it buckets anymore?

I would therefore offer that you might find a sport like lawn bowls
Nah I am thinking more sand sprints.
I have plenty of bikes already - just need a set of knoblys and I am good to go. Get my arse kicked, but have a shit load of fun.

[F5 Dave]

I am. Hence my point. Why call it buckets anymore?
.
Well gee this is a hard one. It was called Miniature road racing by MNZ in the late 80s & later F4 & F5. So it isn't called buckets officially.

[F5 Dave]

Nah I am thinking more sand sprints.
I have plenty of bikes already - just need a set of knoblys and I am good to go. Get my arse kicked, but have a shit load of fun.
Good well piss off to the Dirt section of so we don't have to put up with the moaning.

'course I live there too, but that's my dirty little secret.

[avgas]

Good well piss off to the Dirt section of so we don't have to put up with the moaning.

'course I live there too, but that's my dirty little secret.
Nah they will beat me up too.
I am thinking of racing one of these......(sample photo - mine is in boxes/baskets right now)
http://www.biker.net/triple/new_triple2.jpg

[ac3_snow]

If some one wants a cheap entry to buckets I have an YB100 sitting out the back. $250. I had the time of my life on it before I started building another bike to move up into A grade. Cheap start point and a shitload of laughs.

[jasonu]

Well gee this is a hard one. So it isn't called buckets officially.

...and that is what it will ALWAYS be known as.

[bucketracer]

You overlooked Tuning and Engineering skill ...... and its importance is definitely ahead of the Budget just like it has always been.


Your 100% correct. Why call it buckets anymore?

Whats your point, Buckets has always been about skill ahead of budget, has always been from the get go I expect.

[speedpro]

My first bucket an AC50 cost heaps of TimTams and a few beers. I scrounged nearly everything or someone chipped in and helped. Even way back then me and a few others were being accused of cheque book racing and ruining it for everyone. Always makes me laugh when I hear that sort of accusation. The new(ish) bucket has cost a bit but has been built over 6-7 years, maybe more. On a $/year scale it's way down low.

[TZ350]

I figure my Bucket development has cost me in $$$ about the equivalent of two packs of ciggies a week over five years and hundreds of hours of work, certainly much more work than money.

[jasonu]

My first bucket an AC50 cost heaps of TimTams and a few beers. I scrounged nearly everything or someone chipped in and helped. Even way back then me and a few others were being accused of cheque book racing and ruining it for everyone. Always makes me laugh when I hear that sort of accusation. The new(ish) bucket has cost a bit but has been built over 6-7 years, maybe more. On a $/year scale it's way down low.

Yeah Green ya really fucked it up for everybody with all your fancy schmansy flash bits!

[F5 Dave]

TimTams aren't cheap. you barsteward!@