Dogs that attack - Is it the dog or the owner?

[Bad Biker]

Now don’t get me wrong. I do believe that any animal that attacks a person without provocation should be put down.

But blaming attacks on specific breeds is wrong. I have owned a number of dogs and been around dogs of all types of breed (including pit bulls) and they have been very good dogs with no worry of attacks.

With the mental attitude that it is the breed would leaves us so call intelligent human beings almost extinct.

Think back to the atrocities that we have committed over the centuries – Romans, Greeks, English, Americans and list can go on through every race and atrocities still happen. Don’t forget WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam.

If this is a mentality we wish to follow then be careful you may be euthanised!!!!



Dogs are man’s best friend but like all friends – you treat them like shit the same will come back to you.

Dogs act the way they are treated.

[george formby]

Most of the time I believe it is people at fault, dogs are dogs. Mind you, I have owned a dog which turned out to be inbred, from a line of show dogs, which had to be put down because it was psychotic.

I believe that owners of certain breeds or dogs over a certain size should be licensed, they have to understand dogs & know how to train them properly plus carry the responsibility for the dogs behaviour. Half the owners I meet can't even be bothered to pick up their own dog shit let alone train them.

For the record I have one of those "dangerous" breeds, previously known as the Nanny dog. She loves kids but I only let them approach after a quick "how too" lesson & I never leave her unsupervised. I trust her but not people who may interact with her. At the end of the day regardless of fault I do not want to lose a beautiful dog or see somebody get hurt through ignorance. Simple really.

[JimO]

a dog bit me yesterday, whilst i was working on the owners property, got him back though, gave the cunt a good hosing down

[Brian407]

It's a complex question. Sometimes it is the dog, and sometimes it's the owner. Three personal examples of 'its the dog' come to mind straight away.

My neighbour, single man in his late 40's, has a bull terrier cross something. Had it from a pup and its about 3 years old, loves it to bits, plays with it all the time, doesnt teach it to be a guard dog, not the type that needs one. Very friendly to us, and neighbours on other side. We dont feed it or go out of our way to encourage affection, but feel perfectly safe around it. Problem starts when kids appear. Goes absolutely mental whenever kids walk up the street, barking, snarling, snapping etc. Incredibly frightening, and most of the regular kids in the street cross the road a few houses up to walk past. Dog still goes nuts. Ive lived here for 22 years and have never seen, or had a problem with kids teasing or provoking dogs on the street, and theres plenty of both. This dog just genuinely hates kids, doesnt react that way with other dogs, just kids. To my knowledge it's never touched one, but I wouldnt trust it not too.

Some years back we had a Blue Healer, Hyperactive thing it was, called it the Epilectic Blowfly. Great dog, friendly, obedient (sometimes), no problem with kids or other dogs, didnt wander. Attached itself to my wife and she could get it to do anything. Wife went to pat him one day and he took to her. Sunk one of his canine teeth right through her hand, made quite a mess of her arm. No apparent reason, just went troppo. I shot him that afternoon.

Brothers got a black lab, (gun dog) placcid as they come most of the time. Couple of years ago the police were going to shoot him because he bit the neighbor. Neighbor used to play with him (toss the stick, toss the ball stuff) brother didnt mind, was good training for the dog. Neighbour went to play with him one day and the dog growled him down. The guy should have backed off at this point, but he knew the dog (or so he thought), so he approached with the "whats the matter boy" question. Stuck his hand out to pat him and got bitten for his troubles. Now this dog was/is well known round the neighborhood, people used to bring their toddlers down to play with him, and nobody could understand why he had bitten. Neighbours wife got all panicky and rang the police. They arrived, along with the pound guys and took the dog away. After much debate they agreed to let the dog be checked by a vet to see what might be wrong. Vet examined him and found that his eyelashes were turned in one one eye (right eye) and was annoying the hell out of him. Dog was just having a bad day. Trimmed the offending lashes, went through temperment checks, and brother got him back. He at my place right now, lying at my feet. Great dog.

Three examples of model owners, three reasonably benign dogs, and three very scary situations. Its wrong to single out particular breeds, as all dogs are capable of attack, but some breeds are pre-disposed to it as a result of their breeding. Pit Bulls, for example, wern't bred to be family pets. The fact that they can be bought up as one doesnt negate the built in fighting disposition that they were bred for, and they could, and very often do, revert to the disposition at any time. However the same can be said for many breeds, and many very common family dog breeds. Cant get rid of them all, but you should NEVER completely trust them, period.

[Ronin]

Most of the time I believe it is people at fault, dogs are dogs. Mind you, I have owned a dog which turned out to be inbred, from a line of show dogs, which had to be put down because it was psychotic.

I believe that owners of certain breeds or dogs over a certain size should be licensed, they have to understand dogs & know how to train them properly plus carry the responsibility for the dogs behaviour. Half the owners I meet can't even be bothered to pick up their own dog shit let alone train them.

For the record I have one of those "dangerous" breeds, previously known as the Nanny dog. She loves kids but I only let them approach after a quick "how too" lesson & I never leave her unsupervised. I trust her but not people who may interact with her. At the end of the day regardless of fault I do not want to lose a beautiful dog or see somebody get hurt through ignorance. Simple really.

^^ This. I cannot say THIS enough. Our dog is the most well behaved, patient good natured dog you will ever meet. When kids visit we train the kids...

[ellipsis]

...after all the years of training I have had, I still bite...even though I get fed well and treated nicely...

[Virago]

Now don’t get me wrong. I do believe that any animal that attacks a person without provocation should be put down.

But blaming attacks on specific breeds is wrong. I have owned a number of dogs and been around dogs of all types of breed (including pit bulls) and they have been very good dogs with no worry of attacks.

With the mental attitude that it is the breed would leaves us so call intelligent human beings almost extinct.

Think back to the atrocities that we have committed over the centuries – Romans, Greeks, English, Americans and list can go on through every race and atrocities still happen. Don’t forget WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam.

If this is a mentality we wish to follow then be careful you may be euthanised!!!!

Dogs are man’s best friend but like all friends – you treat them like shit the same will come back to you.

Dogs act the way they are treated.

I certainly think that it's that kind of mindless defence and pointless comparisons that contributes to the problem - but then again you lack the intelligence to post this thread in the right forum...

The problem lies with people and the dogs. No matter how well dogs are treated and trained, there is no guarantee that they will not carry out an unprovoked attack. They are effectively a weapon - which has a mind of its own.

The biggest problem is that dog owners can't get their heads around that fact, and instead obsess about defending and justifying any agression or attacks carried out by dogs.

[george formby]

Good example Brian407 of an alleged "unprovoked" attack, the gun dog was in pain. We perceive "unprovoked" attacks because we do not think like a dog nor consider any motive. Apart from the nutter I briefly owned I have never seen a dog show aggression without reason. That's my whole point about licensing & training owners with the aim of preventing aggression through education & responsibility.

Another example of skewed thinking is the myth that Pitbulls, APBT's were bred to be aggressive generally, not the case, dogs bred to fight had to be handled by anybody even when they were injured. Any dog that showed human aggression was culled. That's why they were the most popular family dog in the US for 100 years or so, hence the "nanny dog" nickname. In recent years backyard breeders cross Bull terriers with anything that will make them look scarier, Mastiffs & Rottweilers for example which are both specifically bred to be human aggressive. These morons are breeding monsters. The lady jogger who was mauled terribly by a pack of pig dogs is an example, Greyhound / Pitbull X. Sight hounds instinctively chase down anything that runs, terriers are unbelievably tenacious when they get onto quarrie. No doubt great pig dogs but a horrific liability if not restrained.

I put the onus firmly & categorically on owners. Like riding a bike, you manage your own risk.

[ellipsis]

I certainly think that it's that kind of mindless defence and pointless comparisons that contributes to the problem - but then again you lack the intelligence to post this thread in the right forum...

The problem lies with people and the dogs. No matter how well dogs are treated and trained, there is no guarantee that they will not carry out an unprovoked attack. They are effectively a weapon - which has a mind of its own.

The biggest problem is that dog owners can't get their heads around that fact, and instead obsess about defending and justifying any agression or attacks carried out by dogs.


...and most really friendly well treated and loved family dogs are just that, friendly ...whereas so many of the dogs that seem to be the badly behaved ones often belong to paranoic, weaselly, macho, scared type boys in mens underpants...no wonder their dogs are schizo...

[scumdog]

ALL breeds can have an 'off day' and attack, more so if improperly raised and trained.

It's just that nobody ever gets dragged down by a Maltese Terrier/Chihuahua etc.

So those big breed are more likely to do damage, ergo they have the high-profile negative rep.

[TrentNz]

I believe it is mostly the owner, although even the most trained, loved dog may still attack.

[Virago]

...I put the onus firmly & categorically on owners. Like riding a bike, you manage your own risk.

That illustrates my point. A dog is not a machine, it cannot be controlled absolutely - you can only manage it as best you can and hope for the best. There will always be risk - but whose risk is it - the dog owner's, or the public at large?

[george formby]

That illustrates my point. A dog is not a machine, it cannot be controlled - you can only manage it as best you can and hope for the best. There will always be risk - but whose risk is it - the dog owner's, or the public at large?

The owner, all it takes is a leash to control a dog & honest forethought. A dog does not wake up in the morning & think "I'm going to bite someone today" the same as a bike does not sit in the garage thinking " I fancy a hide side next time out."

Either way the person has to take responsibility, right from the point of deciding ownership. If somebody is thinking I will do the best I can & hope for the best they should not have a dog or a bike. Shit happens but it can be minimised hugely.

[TrentNz]

The owner, all it takes is a leash to control a dog & honest forethought. A dog does not wake up in the morning & think "I'm going to bite someone today" the same as a bike does not sit in the garage thinking " I fancy a hide side next time out."

Either way the person has to take responsibility, right from the point of deciding ownership. If somebody is thinking I will do the best I can & hope for the best they should not have a dog or a bike. Shit happens but it can be minimised hugely.

Try holding back a 150kg bull mastiff with a leash.
its not going to work.

[RDJ]

A working party from ACC chaired by Katman would undoubtedly conclude these attacks are the fault of the toddlers savaged, because they failed to avoid the dogs and were not wearing Hi-Viz...

[george formby]

Try holding back a 150kg bull mastiff with a leash.
its not going to work.

Exactly, if you can't control it you should not have it.

I have a customer with a 130kg Bull Mastiff, it's trained. It does not move when commanded to stay. He does not need a leash though he uses one, the dog just sticks to his leg when he walks.

That's my point about owner licensing, to prevent the clueless from causing harm.

I should duck out of this thread before I really get on my soap box. So much trouble is caused by people who blame dogs for not being what they wanted rather than understanding what the animal really is.

[scumdog]

The owner, all it takes is a leash to control a dog & honest forethought. A dog does not wake up in the morning & think "I'm going to bite someone today"

No, but you never know when said dog might wake up with a stonking toothe-ache which caused him lack of sleep and thinks"somebody's going to pay for this"

Or evolves into the David Bain of dogs and one day...

[Brian407]

No, but you never know when said dog might wake up with a stonking toothe-ache which caused him lack of sleep and thinks"somebody's going to pay for this"


...and it happens. All the best training, and best intentions in the world doesnt overcome that fact that a dog has a brain and is capable of it's own thought processes. For the most part a dog obeys it's owner because its a pack animal and sees the owner as the leader of the pack, and it wants to, be it for reward, or fear, or love or a myriad of other reasons, and the fact is that if a dog decides, for whatever reason, that it DOESNT want to obey the pack leader anymore then there's naff all you can do about it.

I'm a dog lover, had a few of them over the years, and I dont like to see a particular breed singled out but I'm not naive enough to believe that ANY dog is completely safe, even in the best hands, and i treat them with the appropriate respect accordingly. Bit like a horse, 500kg of animal that could kill you in a heartbeat if it wanted to. Treat it with respect and convince it that your the leader of the herd and you'll be fine, until the day the horse decides it doesnt need a leader anymore.

[george formby]

No, but you never know when said dog might wake up with a stonking toothe-ache which caused him lack of sleep and thinks"somebody's going to pay for this"

Or evolves into the David Bain of dogs and one day...

That's why I advocate putting the onus on the owner to realise that happy little Fido is going to be in a really bad mood one day, same as us but the dog can't voice it. My mutt is a sweetie but I do not trust her or take for granted she will behave how I expect.
You must have come across some real bolshey mutts in your time. Do you think an owners personality is often reflected by their dogs?

[eliot-ness]

Try holding back a 150kg bull mastiff with a leash.
its not going to work.

A Bull Mastiff weighing in at 150kgs would be unlikely to attack anything bigger than a sick kitten. The average weight of that breed is 55kgs for a dog,, 50kgs for a bitch.

[TrentNz]

A Bull Mastiff weighing in at 150kgs would be unlikely to attack anything bigger than a sick kitten. The average weight of that breed is 55kgs for a dog,, 50kgs for a bitch.

"average weight"

I've had two bull mastiffs at one time, one male and one bitch. both upwards of 120kg
what you forget is that they are 80% muscle
wont attack anything bigger then a sick kitten? yeah right they'll attack anything. my bull-mastiff attacked a police dog and almost killed it.
you obviously have never had a big dog.

[Gianz]

what did the Romans do to the dogs?

[eliot-ness]

"average weight"

I've had two bull mastiffs at one time, one male and one bitch. both upwards of 120kg
what you forget is that they are 80% muscle
wont attack anything bigger then a sick kitten? yeah right they'll attack anything. my bull-mastiff attacked a police dog and almost killed it.
you obviously have never had a big dog.

I think you are confusing the Bull Mastiff with the English Mastiff which has the heaviest weight ever recorded for any dog of any breed. It weighed in at 156kgs. And yes, I have owned the breed and at the moment two of my grandsons own them As I said before, 55kgs for the bull Mastiff, and to claim you have one at 150kgs is patently ridiculous. Know your breed before making silly claims.

[Bad Biker]

I certainly think that it's that kind of mindless defence and pointless comparisons that contributes to the problem - but then again you lack the intelligence to post this thread in the right forum...


It’s comments like this that confirms a ‘Dickhead’ especially when you make judgments about someone you don’t know or have ever met.

[TrentNz]

I think you are confusing the Bull Mastiff with the English Mastiff which has the heaviest weight ever recorded for any dog of any breed. It weighed in at 156kgs. And yes, I have owned the breed and at the moment two of my grandsons own them As I said before, 55kgs for the bull Mastiff, and to claim you have one at 150kgs is patently ridiculous. Know your breed before making silly claims.

i never claimed i had a 150kg bull mastiff i said i had one upwards of 120kg


and yes. it was a purebred bull mastiff and i have never seen a bigger one to date.

[bluebird]

Some breeds are just unpredictable and latently vicious, pittbulls, and others bred for fighting, just like humans, ask the cops who commits the violent crime, its inbred some families. I own 2 dogs, both bred for hunting not fighting.

[bsasuper]

So your dogs are breed/trained for hunting, that means anything is game to them.Any dog that wanders onto my property always leaves in a animal control truck, If I feel threatened with an attack, they dont get to leave.

[thecharmed01]

...and it happens. All the best training, and best intentions in the world doesnt overcome that fact that a dog has a brain and is capable of it's own thought processes. For the most part a dog obeys it's owner because its a pack animal and sees the owner as the leader of the pack, and it wants to, be it for reward, or fear, or love or a myriad of other reasons, and the fact is that if a dog decides, for whatever reason, that it DOESNT want to obey the pack leader anymore then there's naff all you can do about it.

I'm a dog lover, had a few of them over the years, and I dont like to see a particular breed singled out but I'm not naive enough to believe that ANY dog is completely safe, even in the best hands, and i treat them with the appropriate respect accordingly. Bit like a horse, 500kg of animal that could kill you in a heartbeat if it wanted to. Treat it with respect and convince it that your the leader of the herd and you'll be fine, until the day the horse decides it doesnt need a leader anymore.

I completely agree.

My grandparents breed purebred Border Collies, they have done all my life and they have bred a lot of cross-breeds suitable for farm dogs and some specifically to be family dogs.
But even they won't 100% trust any dog, especially around strangers or children.
They are more aware/paranoid than I! I like dogs, and one's I've grown up with I'm almost over-trusting of I guess...

Example, my grandfathers current sidekick Connie, has been at his side since she was born. She is remarkable as an animal. Beautiful, friendly and she's come to his rescue many times. She is now about 14 years old.
She allows him to pull himself up banks by grabbing her fur, and she's alerted him when he almost backed into one of the farm gates in his truck - she's also alerted other people when he's had a fall (he's in his 80's you see... but thinks he's 30-something) and brought help from the neighbors farm.
She's a treasure. And not a dog I have EVER had a second though about trusting.
However, one day when I had my son at my grandparents house, we were sitting in the dining room and Connie was in the conservatory through the ranch slider.
We were all watching my son, as he was trying to pull himself up to standing, using the glass door - I was sitting on the floor behind him in case he fell and my grandparents were watching his attempts.
As soon as my son pulled himself up on the glass, Connie went ballistic.
Like nothing I have EVER seen her do in her life. She was launching herself at the glass, snarling, snapping at the glass, barking and leaping around.
It took my grandfather telling her off and dragging her out to her outside kennel before she settled down (while I'd picked up the baby) and she was kept outside the rest of that day.
My son giggled at the time, as 7 month old boys do, but my grandparents were horrified and I have to say she gave me a fright as it was so unlike her.
We visited fairly regularly and I'd never seen the point in keeping the dog away when my son was there, but thankfully my grandmother was always in the habit of putting her in the conservatory. She was around kids often, so it wasn't unusual, and my son did nothing to antagonise her whatsoever.
From that day on, she wore a muzzle when any child visited the house (there are 4 great-grandkids under 5) and my grandmother has only just started letting her keep the muzzle off, and my son is now 3.5yrs old.
Connie and him are good mates now, and Connie will warn us if he tries to touch the gate or leave the yard, but we always supervise her since no one has any clue why she went so nuts that one day.

Just really drums home that the dog you trust with your life, who is well trained and usually obedient to the point she is never restrained or gated in as she just doesn't leave the property, can turn with no notice and hit attack mode - with no rhyme or reason.

[BoristheBiter]

A working party from ACC chaired by Katman would undoubtedly conclude these attacks are the fault of the toddlers savaged, because they failed to avoid the dogs and were not wearing Hi-Viz...

What about the parents?
I put all attacks solely on people, whether that be owners or people coming into contact with said dog.
If you came up to me and stated patting me on the head you you get more than a bite.

Most don't know the first thing about what goes though a dogs mind, it's a pack animal pure and simple.

And the dog that attacks people the most is the jack russell.

[Deano]

My experience is nurture over nature, but there is definitely a scale effect and the odd outlying results...

[Sliver]

i dont see how this is bike related but...

dog will act how there upbringing was, Same as people.

[dangerous]

dont get me started...

disclaimer: I have read the thread title only

[eliot-ness]

i never claimed i had a 150kg bull mastiff i said i had one upwards of 120kg


and yes. it was a purebred bull mastiff and i have never seen a bigger one to date.

Apologies for my mistake. The 150kgs was quoted by a previous poster. However, after checking out many kennel club records I still haven't found anything even approaching 120kgs for a pure bred Bull Mastiff.

[Virago]

Apologies for my mistake. The 150kgs was quoted by a previous poster. However, after checking out many kennel club records I still haven't found anything even approaching 120kgs for a pure bred Bull Mastiff.

I would think that someone is mixing up pounds and kilograms.

[Katman]

I would think that someone is mixing up pounds and kilograms.

Trent would probably mix up pounds and centimetres.

[TrentNz]

it was some years back now.

i like how KBers know everything, even my own dogs weight :facepalm:

[thecharmed01]

What about the parents?
I put all attacks solely on people, whether that be owners or people coming into contact with said dog.
If you came up to me and stated patting me on the head you you get more than a bite.

Most don't know the first thing about what goes though a dogs mind, it's a pack animal pure and simple.

And the dog that attacks people the most is the jack russell.

LOL
My daughter got nipped on the nose by a friends Jack Russel when she was two. She leant over to pat it.
Thankfully it was just a snap and not a proper bite.... and Mario was pretty quick to grab him. Gave us a fright as it was out of the blue.
No harm done though thankfully.

[ellipsis]

...dont get me started...

...ohh...c'mon D...

[dangerous]

Ok CAMSec you asked for it...


I dont like to see a particular breed singled outwell they are and will be... reason being IMO is the skin head fuck faced arse hole types that have a certain bread cos they suposedly look tough with them as the pit bull pulls hard in every direction the weed spoking cock on the other end thinking 'look at my dog hes so bloody strong' me 50kg hairless runt cant control him hes gona destroy the next kenworth that drives past... or the ones that let the dog run willy nilly around them as if to say 'dont fuck with me my dogs on the loose and about to destroy the next kenworth that drives past.

You might have gathered by now it farks me off no end that I have to pay big bucks to regester my dogs, have mad made foren eletronics emplanted in them and, having more than 1 dog I have another fee to pay every year.
The wee cunts that cause all the troubles and these fees etc are aimed at still and never will pay them so again the good responsable owner is penalised for no reasonable reason.

So singling out a bread is no worse than the new signs I have seen round town that say "no cars under a 1500kg allowd between the hours" singling out certain car drivers called boy homo racers... DONT get me started

[5150]

I think it is the owners who should have a license to own a dog. By showing their right attitude and knowledge of dog breeds and behaviour one wold prove mental competence to own and care for these lovely animals, no matter what breed. Unfortunately policing it would not be possible. So it is only a wish list :mellow:

[hellokitty]

:angry: People also need to keep their damn dogs on leads - sick and tired of MY dog getting shit from little dogs with attitudes.
Little fuzzy dog that roams the neighbourhood ran down our drive the other day, ran up to My Hellokitty while he was sitting on the ground working on the car, and bit him then ran off :blink: WTF? Broke the skin too - he has popeye type arms - very muscular and beefy - if that was a child, it could have been nasty.

[Katman]

You might have gathered by now it farks me off no end that I have to pay big bucks to regester my dogs, have mad made foren eletronics emplanted in them and, having more than 1 dog I have another fee to pay every year.
The wee cunts that cause all the troubles and these fees etc are aimed at still and never will pay them so again the good responsable owner is penalised for no reasonable reason.



Doesn't that all sound soooo familiar? :whistle:

[BoristheBiter]

I think it is the owners who should have a license to own a dog. By showing their right attitude and knowledge of dog breeds and behaviour one wold prove mental competence to own and care for these lovely animals, no matter what breed. Unfortunately policing it would not be possible. So it is only a wish list :mellow:

And again like the micro chipping and dog registration is now, only the good owners will get done.

[Virago]

What about the parents?
I put all attacks solely on people, whether that be owners or people coming into contact with said dog...

Blaming the victim is the most common tactic used by the owners of unsafe dogs.

To put the situation in perspective, try a similar scenario. Instead of an agressive dog at my front gate, I perhaps put a loaded gun on the gate post. A small child passes, sees the gun, picks it up and accidentally shoots himself.

Who is to blame? According to dog owner's logic, it is the child's fault - and also the parent's fault for lack of supervision. I would then be able to absolve myself of responsibility, and wallow in self-interested grizzles about "my rights".

Other gun lovers could give their opinion - "It was also the gun owner's fault, punish him but don't unload the gun."...

The reality is dogs are like loaded guns - only worse. They're loaded guns with minds of their own.

They can't be 100% trusted, even by the owners.

[george formby]

Blaming the victim is the most common tactic used by the owners of unsafe dogs.

To put the situation in perspective, try a similar scenario. Instead of an agressive dog at my front gate, I perhaps put a loaded gun on the gate post. A small child passes, sees the gun, picks it up and accidentally shoots himself.

Who is to blame? According to dog owner's logic, it is the child's fault - and also the parent's fault for lack of supervision. I would then be able to absolve myself of responsibility, and wallow in self-interested grizzles about "my rights".

Other gun lovers could give their opinion - "It was also the gun owner's fault, punish him but don't unload the gun."...

The reality is dogs are like loaded guns - only worse. They're loaded guns with minds of their own.

They can't be 100% trusted, even by the owners.

True that. The Border Collie incident demonstrates it, it also demonstrates that awareness of this can prevent kids people / getting hurt.

If you have a gun you need a gun safe, if you have a dog you need a (metaphorical) dog safe.

[TrentNz]

if a dog is brought up being abused most of its life it is more likely to attack someone.

i do believe in giving the dog a clip if it does something bad

[scumdog]

I think it is the owners who should have a license to own a dog. By showing their right attitude and knowledge of dog breeds and behaviour one wold prove mental competence to own and care for these lovely animals, no matter what breed. Unfortunately policing it would not be possible. So it is only a wish list :mellow:

You summed it up well at the end.

But you need (hah!) a licence to drive a car - but that doesn't necessarily mean you are a good driver.

And you need a licence to own a gun (hah! X 2) - but look at who is most likely to use a gun in a crime - rarely is it a licenced owner.

So a 'dog licence it would work almost as well...<_<

Now a licence to breed however...:shifty:

And Dangerous is dead right about the immature pimply necked scabby mouthed rotten toothed smelly clothed Harley T-shirt wearing "Oh look at me I'm so tough" (said in best Homer Simpson voice) skinhead/shithead types and their dogs (with obligatory studded collar or big-ass chain around the dogs neck...

[Brian407]

Now a licence to breed however...:shifty:



Now THERE'S a discussion that needs to be had....for more than just dog owners, oops I mean breeeders....:msn-wink:

[george formby]

You summed it up well at the end.

But you need (hah!) a licence to drive a car - but that doesn't necessarily mean you are a good driver.

And you need a licence to own a gun (hah! X 2) - but look at who is most likely to use a gun in a crime - rarely is it a licenced owner.

So a 'dog licence it would work almost as well...<_<

Now a licence to breed however...:shifty:

And Dangerous is dead right about the immature pimply necked scabby mouthed rotten toothed smelly clothed Harley T-shirt wearing "Oh look at me I'm so tough" (said in best Homer Simpson voice) skinhead/shithead types and their dogs (with obligatory studded collar or big-ass chain around the dogs neck...

I like, may be marginally more effective. Backyard breeders would be open to being reported & prosecuted. To many mutts running around anyway. Why stop at dogs...:whistle:

[scumdog]

I like, may be marginally more effective. Backyard breeders would be open to being reported & prosecuted. To many mutts running around anyway. Why stop at dogs...:whistle:

I wasn't thinking about dogs...<_<

[Brian407]

Neither was I. Natural Selection doesnt work in our species any more...

[george formby]

I wasn't thinking about dogs...<_<

That's off topic but I think we have an understanding:laugh:

[dangerous]

I think it is the owners who should have a license to own a dog. By showing their right attitude and knowledge of dog breeds and behaviour one wold prove mental competence to own and care for these lovely animals, no matter what breed. Unfortunately policing it would not be possible. So it is only a wish list :mellow:
No amount of fees, fines, rules, regulations, chipping and... licencing will ever change or help the problem we have, as my post right above yours.

[george formby]

Scumdog leads by a nose in the workability stakes. Whichever way you choose to read it.

[GrayWolf]

Ok I will add 2c worth here,
I used to breed and show Rottweilers as a Kennel club registered breeder. I stopped doing so for 2 reasons. Very difficult to find suitable homes, too many 'so called' breeders selling puppies for pathetically low sums. (you cannot raise a good litter of well fed, inoculated, healthy puppies then sell them for $120, which I have seen them advertised for back then. A KC registered and papered dog would be more around the $600+ mark, and you don't make money on doing that either!)

I worked for a Security firm in the UK for a few years as a dog handler, the difference was we did not use 'multi handled' dogs, we had our own dog, trained them (under strict supervision and selection process) and we were the only person to handle that dog, it was our own personally owned animal, similar to the Police but there are certain restrictions placed on security dogs... one of which was you are not allowed to 'release' the dog to pursue a possible law breaker..... hehehehe but 30ft of rope, on the end of a 12ft handlers leash isn't letting it off the lead is it? :laugh:
On a serious note, dogs can have issues of personality, they can be nervous. Example: frequently breeds such as a border collie will 'lurk behind' the owners legs and be snarling, this is a 'fear biter' behavior.. this dog under pressure WILL bite out of fear. Public example would be to; enter its owners property, and inadvertently 'corner' the animal blocking its escape route... its under instant pressure and is going to react badly if pushed further.
When the dog is selected for 'man work' of any description it is carefully selected for 'personality'.. viciousness, nervousness, timidity, aggressiveness are not acceptable traits. Any reputable breeder will put down a puppy that has such an obvious defect, or they should, but frequently do not because of the dollar value, or they are simply backyard breeders cashing in on a breeds popularity. A balanced dog of my breed? Would if visiting a new environment, walk in like it 'owned the joint' and have no concern for new items, sounds or people. <simplified!

The German breeding system has 'breed wardens' these people have every pedigree dog of a breed that is registered to a breeder in a book. Each dog has been temperament tested, checked for 'conformity' to the breed standard not only for genotype, but for character traits as well. Any dog that fails to meet the strict criteria is 'black marked' not to be bred from. The breed wardens will also be involved with the mating selection, to ensure that it is a 'good match'. So there is a huge gap in the control of breeders here and in other countries. One sad example from the UK was a dog that was used prolifically for stud and was a crufts winner for the breeders, but it was a raving nutter for temperament and passed on its traits. Often I used to see aggressive Rottie's, and sure as eggs was eggs ' Dark Charles' was featuring on at least 2 or 3 of the Grandparents/parents bloodlines.

Most owners in reality want a 'Labrador' .... they dont want the work involved in owning an intelligent 'working breed' such as a Shepherd, Rottie, Weirmeraner. They want a dog that will lounge in front of the fire, but they want a dog that will 'protect' them and the property. Working breeds require 'brain activity' as well as physical activity. How often are dogs left tied up outside all day with no input and nothing to do but be bored? Dog training is simply you being 'pack leader' and setting the pack rules. To say a dog will bite if it feels like it is a somewhat over and understatement of fact. If a dog is not taught manners! it acts to how it is allowed to act. A dog that is 'formally trained to attack a human being' is indeed a 'weapon'. It is trained to react to specific stimuli and situations in a specific manner. However, if that dog will not 'leave' on command, there is either a serious flaw in the training or the dogs selection process.
I guess what I am trying to point out is the fact of flaws in both breeder selection, ownership selection and frequently simply owners acquiring a breed with no real knowledge of what is involved in that ownership. Until that is remedied there will always be public attacks that are unprovoked, or ones that did get a provocation, but the bite is not acceptable.
It is an interesting twist of the human psyche, that we own cats, that are allowed to wander anywhere, defecate in anyone's garden AND are allowed to attack (scratch and claw) and we accept that as a cats behavior... now make that cat weigh upwards 0f 20kilos and the relevant size? Suddenly a whole different ball game.

[george formby]

Hallelujah Graywolf.

My pyscho Dalmatian was bred from a Canadian Crufts grand champion, would have made a good junk yard dog.

I have a tick all the boxes Bull Terrier which means I spend at least 2 hours a day, everyday exercising & training her. That's my buzz though, I knew what I was getting & what was required to have a happy, balanced dog. It's hard work.

[98tls]

Hallelujah Graywolf.

My pyscho Dalmatian was bred from a Canadian Crufts grand champion, would have made a good junk yard dog.

I have a tick all the boxes Bull Terrier which means I spend at least 2 hours a day, everyday exercising & training her. That's my buzz though, I knew what I was getting & what was required to have a happy, balanced dog. It's hard work.

Yep thats it in a nutshell,When our old Border Collie died we had to sit down and think long n hard re another,we are not getting any younger and Borders just dont stop,summers easy as i just about live down the river but come winter its sometimes hard to get motivated<_<he doesnt care if its pissing down..all the better to get covered in shite.:laugh:On the biting thing our old fella had a snap at a kid who grabbed his ear and gave it a yank,from that day on i just couldnt leave him alone with children nor do i with our current one,he loves kids but for the sake of the kids and the dog i just dont.

[dangerous]

It is an interesting twist of the human psyche, that we own cats, that are allowed to wander anywhere, defecate in anyone's garden AND are allowed to attack (scratch and claw) and we accept that as a cats behavior... now make that cat weigh upwards 0f 20kilos and the relevant size? Suddenly a whole different ball game.and a ball game I work with, only they are 100kg heavyer




On a serious note, dogs can have issues of personality, they can be nervous. this is a 'fear biter' behavior.. this dog under pressure WILL bite out of fear. Public example would be to; enter its owners property, and inadvertently 'corner' the animal blocking its escape route... its under instant pressure and is going to react badly if pushed further.My Dobie is a bit like that and is a trate they often have, he has lerched at my boys, when cornerd, he dosent mean to and looks very worried after he has, best I can do is to avoid him being cornered and to teach my boys the dos n donts.
When suprised by another dog say at the park he does the same. so yes as a owner we do need to be awear of our dog and own wearabouts at all times, tho not always possable.

[Trade_nancy]

Been attacked by three dogs. Two were pitbull crosses and one was a Rotty cross. All attacks were unprovoked and unexpected and the owners were all pleasant responsible people who were devistated.
Coss-breeds and pitbulls - high risk. I don't buy into the "it's the owners - not the dogs crap". Except - it's the owners who are stupid enough to want a breed such as a pitbull that is designed for agressive fighting. Often their owners were also.

[wingnutt]

Having worked with dogs all my life, managed dog kennels, trained, showed, owned, I have handled pretty much every breed of dog there is, and I can say quite emphatically, that 99% of dog problems are the owners, and the people that associate with the dog.

The biggest problem is, we expect the dog to act like us, we expect it to think like us, well, they don’t; in fact, nothing could be further from the truth.

They are a completely separate being with different instincts, and when things go pear shaped we scream and kick the dog, when really it’s our fault for not taking the time to understand why they react the way they do.

Over the centuries, the dog has become expert at reading our body language, and yet very few of us, have taken the time to reciprocate, we just expect them to do what we want and that’s it.

Let me be clear, here, the majority of crap, the media is pushing about dog attacks is just utter bullshit. If a dog makes up its mind to attack, there will either be very very severe injuries or death, if you have seen a dog fight, you will know what I mean. There are no half measures when a dog goes for it, and the littlies they are showing with scratch marks etc, while unfortunate, are there for another reason, other than an attack, and its our fault for not teaching our kids how to react around dogs, how to read dogs in fact.

We let dogs into our lives for all the wrong reasons, I had an idiot ring me one day looking to purchase a Husky and when I ask him why a Husky, he thought it would look good in his back yard! I bloody told him to get a statue.

I wish I could say that he was a minority, but unfortunately it isn’t and until we sit back, learn to communicate, and understand fully what our four legged friends are trying to tell us, then I’m afraid the injuries will continue.
Ooo look, a pink pig just flew past me window.

[Clockwork]

Or evolves into the David Bain of dogs and one day...

Hmmmm..... Careful, I think you'll find that comment is libelous.

[Brian407]

Hmmmm..... Careful, I think you'll find that comment is libelous.

What? You mean they're not all blessed with bad haircuts, big ears and nana's tea cosy as a jersy?

[BoristheBiter]

Blaming the victim is the most common tactic used by the owners of unsafe dogs.

To put the situation in perspective, try a similar scenario. Instead of an agressive dog at my front gate, I perhaps put a loaded gun on the gate post. A small child passes, sees the gun, picks it up and accidentally shoots himself.

Who is to blame? According to dog owner's logic, it is the child's fault - and also the parent's fault for lack of supervision. I would then be able to absolve myself of responsibility, and wallow in self-interested grizzles about "my rights".

Other gun lovers could give their opinion - "It was also the gun owner's fault, punish him but don't unload the gun."...

The reality is dogs are like loaded guns - only worse. They're loaded guns with minds of their own.

They can't be 100% trusted, even by the owners.

Did you read that before you posted?
You just answered your own question, of course it is the child's fault, the gun didn't go off by it's self did it.

If you want to go by your logic, if you could call it that, everyone that punches someone else should be put down.
There are more aggressive people than there are dogs, so my be we should licence them.

[Sliver]

it was some years back now.

i like how KBers know everything, even my own dogs weight :facepalm:

LOL! Good call.

[Sliver]

also for the record...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Mastiff

English mastiff tho.

[Flip]

Neither was I. Natural Selection doesnt work in our species any more...

Yes it does, just look at the vehicle accident rate for young men.

There is a higher level of responsibility required if you own a dog that has been bred to fight other dogs, just the same as if you have a E cat firearms licence and own MSSASA's.

[GrayWolf]

We let dogs into our lives for all the wrong reasons, I had an idiot ring me one day looking to purchase a Husky and when I ask him why a Husky, he thought it would look good in his back yard! I bloody told him to get a statue..................................
I wish I could say that he was a minority, but unfortunately it isn’t and until we sit back, learn to communicate, and understand fully what our four legged friends are trying to tell us, then I’m afraid the injuries will continue.

Ooo look, a pink pig just flew past me window.


Now about that flying pink Pig, that'd look good in my back yard..............:rolleyes:

[Grubber]

It's a complex question. Sometimes it is the dog, and sometimes it's the owner. Three personal examples of 'its the dog' come to mind straight away.

My neighbour, single man in his late 40's, has a bull terrier cross something. Had it from a pup and its about 3 years old, loves it to bits, plays with it all the time, doesnt teach it to be a guard dog, not the type that needs one. Very friendly to us, and neighbours on other side. We dont feed it or go out of our way to encourage affection, but feel perfectly safe around it. Problem starts when kids appear. Goes absolutely mental whenever kids walk up the street, barking, snarling, snapping etc. Incredibly frightening, and most of the regular kids in the street cross the road a few houses up to walk past. Dog still goes nuts. Ive lived here for 22 years and have never seen, or had a problem with kids teasing or provoking dogs on the street, and theres plenty of both. This dog just genuinely hates kids, doesnt react that way with other dogs, just kids. To my knowledge it's never touched one, but I wouldnt trust it not too.

Some years back we had a Blue Healer, Hyperactive thing it was, called it the Epilectic Blowfly. Great dog, friendly, obedient (sometimes), no problem with kids or other dogs, didnt wander. Attached itself to my wife and she could get it to do anything. Wife went to pat him one day and he took to her. Sunk one of his canine teeth right through her hand, made quite a mess of her arm. No apparent reason, just went troppo. I shot him that afternoon.

Brothers got a black lab, (gun dog) placcid as they come most of the time. Couple of years ago the police were going to shoot him because he bit the neighbor. Neighbor used to play with him (toss the stick, toss the ball stuff) brother didnt mind, was good training for the dog. Neighbour went to play with him one day and the dog growled him down. The guy should have backed off at this point, but he knew the dog (or so he thought), so he approached with the "whats the matter boy" question. Stuck his hand out to pat him and got bitten for his troubles. Now this dog was/is well known round the neighborhood, people used to bring their toddlers down to play with him, and nobody could understand why he had bitten. Neighbours wife got all panicky and rang the police. They arrived, along with the pound guys and took the dog away. After much debate they agreed to let the dog be checked by a vet to see what might be wrong. Vet examined him and found that his eyelashes were turned in one one eye (right eye) and was annoying the hell out of him. Dog was just having a bad day. Trimmed the offending lashes, went through temperment checks, and brother got him back. He at my place right now, lying at my feet. Great dog.

Three examples of model owners, three reasonably benign dogs, and three very scary situations. Its wrong to single out particular breeds, as all dogs are capable of attack, but some breeds are pre-disposed to it as a result of their breeding. Pit Bulls, for example, wern't bred to be family pets. The fact that they can be bought up as one doesnt negate the built in fighting disposition that they were bred for, and they could, and very often do, revert to the disposition at any time. However the same can be said for many breeds, and many very common family dog breeds. Cant get rid of them all, but you should NEVER completely trust them, period.

This pretty much rounds it up. Dogs are dogs and they are in fact from a long lineage of predators.
That's just the way it is. Many do in fact remain very sedate but do still have the small chance of being feral and a small percentage remain feral at any opportunity. It's just the way it is. As some dogs make great gun dogs as do some make great police dogs etc, there just so happens that there is some breeds that just happen to make good VICIOUS dogs.
How often have we heard the " but he was great with the kids" right after he has taken a hunk out of the neighbours kid. Some adult has not taken the oportunity to learn about his/her dogs background and lineage. A vicious breed is a vicious breed, with no chance of changing him, "great with kids" or not.

[Grubber]

Did you read that before you posted?
You just answered your own question, of course it is the child's fault, the gun didn't go off by it's self did it.

If you want to go by your logic, if you could call it that, everyone that punches someone else should be put down.
There are more aggressive people than there are dogs, so my be we should licence them.

Ummmm, i'll back the human thanks. I kinda regard human life a bit more important.

[oneofsix]

This pretty much rounds it up. Dogs are dogs and they are in fact from a long lineage of predators.
.

You could go a step further. A dog is in fact a domesticated wolf. They used to say there was two separate genus for dogs and wolves but recent DNA checks have shown that dogs and wolves are one in the same and it is the fox that is from a different genus. Therefore if you approach a dog as a domesticated wolf you are on the right track.
Half the problem is we no longer teach kids to be cautious around dogs and the other half is allowing shit heads to own them.
In case you are wondering I am more a dog person than a cat person. The cat only pretends to be domesticated to suck in it's human slaves, it is still a mini tiger or lion etc.

[george formby]

Yes it does, just look at the vehicle accident rate for young men.

There is a higher level of responsibility required if you own a dog that has been bred to fight other dogs, just the same as if you have a E cat firearms licence and own MSSASA's.

This applies to any high drive working breed. The snappiest, most aggressive dogs round here are Border Collies & Huntaways. My Bull Terrier has never so much as curled her lip at a dog or person but I do not assume it will never happen.
A guy with two Irish Setters told me to keep my dog away from his on the beach awhile ago, she was at heel, his dogs where running around uncontrollably, he qualified this by telling me his dogs were retrievers not fighting dogs. I asked when was the last time one of them had come home with a duck? Moron.
Licence the Breeders! Most sense I've heard in years.

[george formby]

This pretty much rounds it up. Dogs are dogs and they are in fact from a long lineage of predators.
That's just the way it is. Many do in fact remain very sedate but do still have the small chance of being feral and a small percentage remain feral at any opportunity. It's just the way it is. As some dogs make great gun dogs as do some make great police dogs etc, there just so happens that there is some breeds that just happen to make good VICIOUS dogs.
How often have we heard the " but he was great with the kids" right after he has taken a hunk out of the neighbours kid. Some adult has not taken the oportunity to learn about his/her dogs background and lineage. A vicious breed is a vicious breed, with no chance of changing him, "great with kids" or not.

Name one & show the proof?

[oneofsix]

This applies to any high drive working breed. The snappiest, most aggressive dogs round here are Border Collies & Huntaways. .

Yeah boredom. I owned a border collie, poor thing never had enough to entertain him. Most people get them cause they look cute etc but forget they basically need two people to work and entertain them because they will still be going when the first person collapses. Or like me get sucked in by the kids hollow promises.

[BoristheBiter]

Ummmm, i'll back the human thanks. I kinda regard human life a bit more important.

I guess we will disagree on that. There is a lot that wouldn't even get close to the intelligence of a dog.

[BoristheBiter]

A vicious breed is a vicious breed, with no chance of changing him, "great with kids" or not.

Just proves what little you know about dogs.

[george formby]

Yeah boredom. I owned a border collie, poor thing never had enough to entertain him. Most people get them cause they look cute etc but forget they basically need two people to work and entertain them because they will still be going when the first person collapses. Or like me get sucked in by the kids hollow promises.

LOL. Run their arse off for two hours & when you try to get them back in the car they look at you with that "WTF?" expression.

[BoristheBiter]

This applies to any high drive working breed. The snappiest, most aggressive dogs round here are Border Collies & Huntaways. My Bull Terrier has never so much as curled her lip at a dog or person but I do not assume it will never happen.
A guy with two Irish Setters told me to keep my dog away from his on the beach awhile ago, she was at heel, his dogs where running around uncontrollably, he qualified this by telling me his dogs were retrievers not fighting dogs. I asked when was the last time one of them had come home with a duck? Moron.
Licence the Breeders! Most sense I've heard in years.


Yeah boredom. I owned a border collie, poor thing never had enough to entertain him. Most people get them cause they look cute etc but forget they basically need two people to work and entertain them because they will still be going when the first person collapses. Or like me get sucked in by the kids hollow promises.

We have a GWP, excellent gun dog but it needs a massive amount of exercise, not only running but hunting as well.
We have met so many people that have had this type of dog and not taken them for walks and wonder why they destroy the house then have the nerve to call them a bad dog.

[oneofsix]

LOL. Run their arse off for two hours & when you try to get them back in the car they look at you with that "WTF?" expression.

Yep that's it and all whilst running in circles and this whilst he was still only a puppie.

[BoristheBiter]

LOL. Run their arse off for two hours & when you try to get them back in the car they look at you with that "WTF?" expression.

We say it's the "what is that it look".

[george formby]

Just proves what little you know about dogs.

Can you answer the question?

I posted that because I thought it might be implying something about a breed commonly in the headlines at the moment. Despite the huge problems caused by vicious dogs few of them have been bred to be purely vicious or human aggressive.
Akita's ( guarding fortified Japnese villages), Cuban Blood Hounds ( used by the Spanish to hunt down escaped slaves), early Mastiffs (used by armies) & other Molossa breeds were bred for these traits but people prefer to base their opinions on headlines not research & consequently have never heard of them.

[BoristheBiter]

Can you answer the question?

I posted that because I thought it might be implying something about a breed commonly in the headlines at the moment. Despite the huge problems caused by vicious dogs few of them have been bred to be purely vicious or human aggressive.
Akita's ( guarding fortified Japnese villages), Cuban Blood Hounds ( used by the Spanish to hunt down escaped slaves), early Mastiffs (used by armies) & other Molossa breeds were bred for these traits but people prefer to base their opinions on headlines not research & consequently have never heard of them.

But that's the thing there are dogs that have a tendency to be aggressive but not vicious.
All of the above have been trained.

[Maha]

How do you make a dog meow?

[oneofsix]

How do you make a dog meow?

Put the chainsaw down and walk away quietly.

[BoristheBiter]

How do you make a dog meow?

Put it in the freezer and when frozen put it though a band saw...
Meeeeeeeooooooowwwwww.

[oneofsix]

and next it will be making a cat woof

[Maha]

Put it in the freezer and when frozen put it though a band saw...
Meeeeeeeooooooowwwwww.

Yes...bling sent.

[Maha]

and next it will be making a cat woof

How to make a cat bark...thats just as colourful...:cool:

[BoristheBiter]

and next it will be making a cat woof

Throw petrol on it then throw a match....
Wooooofffffff.

[george formby]

But that's the thing there are dogs that have a tendency to be aggressive but not vicious.
All of the above have been trained.

Ok, i'm being pedantic, I was meaning specifically bred. Any dog can be made vicious, sadly it's the ones that can do the most damage & are hardest to stop which are being encouraged. 100's of years of breeding down the toilet to make someone feel tough.

[Flip]

My best mate is a old English black and tan terrier also called a Welsh terrier. They have been around since history began and is the root breed for all terriers. Ted is registered in the UK as a historic UK dog breed.

He is only 12 kg but is a tough, confident, unfashionable happy medium sized dog. He is the best rabbit hunting dog I have ever seen. We went for a walk the other day, I shot 12 and he caught 8. He has never started a dog fight but he has finished a few of them, he is fast, tough and has no reverse gear.

The downside with him is he has no recall, he doesent go far from me (about 100m) but won't come back when called. If he sees something to chase he is off and he won’t take his eye off it. He is smart, understands about 30-40 words. He needs at least two walks a day, he also seems to have a good memory. If it is in his mouth it is his.

I have never had a staffy or red nose but if you took one of my dogs and bread them for aggression you would end up with a very dangerous animal.

[BoristheBiter]

Ok, i'm being pedantic, I was meaning specifically bred. Any dog can be made vicious, sadly it's the ones that can do the most damage & are hardest to stop which are being encouraged. 100's of years of breeding down the toilet to make someone feel tough.

Then I would say the German Shepard, there is a reason they use them for police work.
But still even then not all make the grade as they aren't aggressive.

[george formby]

My best mate is a old English black and tan terrier also called a Welsh terrier. They have been around since history began and is the root breed for all terriers. Ted is registered in the UK as a historic UK dog breed.

He is only 12 kg but is a tough, confident, unfashionable happy medium sized dog. He is the best rabbit hunting dog I have ever seen. We went for a walk the other day, I shot 12 and he caught 8. He has never started a dog fight but he has finished a few of them, he is fast, tough and has no reverse gear.

The downside with him is he has no recall, he doesent go far from me (about 100m) but won't come back when called. If he sees something to chase he is off and he won’t take his eye off it. He is smart, understands about 30-40 words. He needs at least two walks a day, he also seems to have a good memory. If it is in his mouth it is his.

I have never had a staffy or red nose but if you took one of my dogs and bread them for aggression you would end up with a very dangerous animal.

Staffies & then APBT"s regardless of nose colour, more or less the same dog, should have the same characteristics as your Welsh Terrier, brains, tenacity, high prey drive, stamina, strength & a taste for badgers. As you say breeding them away from their working history to be aggressive mutts is insanity.

[Trade_nancy]

Challenge: take any 10 people off the street at random and make them walk past 2 dogs in turn,...1st a labrador and 2nd a APBT with any nose colour you like. I'd bet my $10 to say - at least 50% of the people would shy away from the APBT and none from the labrador. EVEN if the dog was owned, trained and being held on a steel cable lead by the local parish priest, people would not have a good feeling passing inside the snapping zone of an APBT.

These breeds such as APBT - are dangerous breeds that can be cleverly and carefully managed so as to become socially calm...for now.
Breeds such as labradors are docile breeds that HAVE to be mismanaged and/or abused to make them into socially maladjusted biters.
All that is required to change a calm APBT into a biter is a surprise...something that spooks it. Say a child suddenly appearing in it's face with a large toy...or ME,...running past it.

[george formby]

Challenge: take any 10 people off the street at random and make them walk past 2 dogs in turn,...1st a labrador and 2nd a APBT with any nose colour you like. I'd bet my $10 to say - at least 50% of the people would shy away from the APBT and none from the labrador. EVEN if the dog was owned, trained and being held on a steel cable lead by the local parish priest, people would not have a good feeling passing inside the snapping zone of an APBT.

These breeds such as APBT - are dangerous breeds that can be cleverly and carefully managed so as to become socially calm...for now.
Breeds such as labradors are docile breeds that HAVE to be mismanaged and/or abused to make them into socially maladjusted biters.
All that is required to change a calm APBT into a biter is a surprise...something that spooks it. Say a child suddenly appearing in it's face with a large toy...or ME,...running past it.

Your right that people will shy away from an APBT. Good, does them & the dog a favour. I pity the poor person which gets nipped when they take the Lab by surprise & it reacts the same way any dog would, Bull Terrier or not.
American medical statistics & the UK too, I believe, show that more people are "bitten" by labradors than any other breed. Thing is, they do not do a lot of damage & are far rarely reported to the police so do not make headlines. Often happens in the home too.
All in all, do not approach strange dogs without the owners permission & supervision. If you do want to run past a dog, any dog, keep your distance, dogs, all of them are designed to chase.

[Trade_nancy]

Your right that people will shy away from an APBT. Good, does them & the dog a favour. I pity the poor person which gets nipped when they take the Lab by surprise & it reacts the same way any dog would, Bull Terrier or not.
American medical statistics & the UK too, I believe, show that more people are "bitten" by labradors than any other breed. Thing is, they do not do a lot of damage & are far rarely reported to the police so do not make headlines. Often happens in the home too.
All in all, do not approach strange dogs without the owners permission & supervision. If you do want to run past a dog, any dog, keep your distance, dogs, all of them are designed to chase.

Most excellent points George. Especially not to go near a dog on a lead when running....but after maybe a thousand or more - I've been bitten twice on the run...well me once and my running mate the other time....he was bitten by APBT and me by a Rotty cross. Never had a labrador do more than smile.
Labs, retrievers, poodles in fact - cats, all bite. The difference and the important one amongst others is: APBT and similar go on an a sustained attack...not a nip or snap and run.

[george formby]

Most excellent points George. Especially not to go near a dog on a lead when running....but after maybe a thousand or more - I've been bitten twice on the run...well me once and my running mate the other time....he was bitten by APBT and me by a Rotty cross. Never had a labrador do more than smile.
Labs, retrievers, poodles in fact - cats, all bite. The difference and the important one amongst others is: APBT and similar go on an a sustained attack...not a nip or snap and run.


Sadly I cannot argue with that, a snap from a Bull Terrier can do a lot of damage, they are bred to hold come hell or high water. Most Terriers are incredibly tenacious once they get started too.
My job as an owner is to make sure nothing starts. If anything happens it is my fault not the dogs.

I have made a point from day one not to let my dog jump up, mouth anybody in play, she has to sit & stay when I answer the door & "flounders" around kids until they have been introduced & told how to behave around a dog. Flounder is whole body & head flat on the ground like a road kill frog. She is never left with strangers or kids unsupervised. Poor thing is also the softest, most affectionate dog I have ever come across. Still, she is what she is & I can't read her mind.

[Grubber]

I guess we will disagree on that. There is a lot that wouldn't even get close to the intelligence of a dog.

In some cases i would actually agree with you on that one too!

[Grubber]

Challenge: take any 10 people off the street at random and make them walk past 2 dogs in turn,...1st a labrador and 2nd a APBT with any nose colour you like. I'd bet my $10 to say - at least 50% of the people would shy away from the APBT and none from the labrador. EVEN if the dog was owned, trained and being held on a steel cable lead by the local parish priest, people would not have a good feeling passing inside the snapping zone of an APBT.

These breeds such as APBT - are dangerous breeds that can be cleverly and carefully managed so as to become socially calm...for now.
Breeds such as labradors are docile breeds that HAVE to be mismanaged and/or abused to make them into socially maladjusted biters.
All that is required to change a calm APBT into a biter is a surprise...something that spooks it. Say a child suddenly appearing in it's face with a large toy...or ME,...running past it.

Couldn't have said it better myself! Thanks for that.

[dangerous]

Staffies & then APBT"s regardless of nose colour, more or less the same dog,
NO farking way man... staffies do NOT have the agression that pit bulls do, they are the best baby sitters you can get, i would not trust a pb they are a mix of breeds un like the Staff which goes back 100's of years.

It piss's me off no end that the media report that it was a staffie and it was a mungel PB, I have a golden staff rear in colour and every time at the dog park she gets called 'one of those dogs' odley brindels or blacks dont get the same reaction.
The Staff will sit and guard, sure if a cat pops into view shes gone. the Dobie will sit further away he dosent baby sit well but is very alert to the suroundings and guards very well.

256415

[BoristheBiter]

Couldn't have said it better myself! Thanks for that.

Now try that with people and i bet you get the same result.
It is based on biased tendency's and media hype more than real facts.

[Flip]

NO farking way man... staffies do NOT have the agression that pit bulls do, they are the best baby sitters you can get, i would not trust a pb they are a mix of breeds un like the Staff which goes back 100's of years.

It piss's me off no end that the media report that it was a staffie and it was a mungel PB, I have a golden staff rear in colour and every time at the dog park she gets called 'one of those dogs' odley brindels or blacks dont get the same reaction.
The Staff will sit and guard, sure if a cat pops into view shes gone. the Dobie will sit further away he dosent baby sit well.

256415

The Dobie knows his place, whats the kid doing on the staffys blanket?

[george formby]

NO farking way man... staffies do NOT have the agression that pit bulls do, they are the best baby sitters you can get, i would not trust a pb they are a mix of breeds un like the Staff which goes back 100's of years.

It piss's me off no end that the media report that it was a staffie and it was a mungel PB, I have a golden staff rear in colour and every time at the dog park she gets called 'one of those dogs' odley brindels or blacks dont get the same reaction.
The Staff will sit and guard, sure if a cat pops into view shes gone. the Dobie will sit further away he dosent baby sit well.

256415

I beg to differ. I have owned Staffies for years prior to moving out here & my current mutt is a staffie in all ways except size. The Staffie was the starting point for APBT's which were bred to be more suitable for working in America rather than Bolton. They are Terriers, well, a properly bred one is. Staffies have been bastardised for the show ring & APBT's ruined for the tiny dick brigade.
Lovely dogs, full of character & drive.

[dangerous]

I beg to differ. I have owned Staffies for years prior to moving out here & my current mutt is a staffie in all ways except size. The Staffie was the starting point for APBT's which were bred to be more suitable for working in America rather than Bolton. They are Terriers, well, a properly bred one is. Staffies have been bastardised for the show ring & APBT's ruined for the tiny dick brigade.
Lovely dogs, full of character & drive.
we are kinda on the same team here, yeah the Staffie specs have changed over the years and the yank version differs ie leg length etc, yeah the Staffie was is a fighting dog, they are very much a one track minded mutt and once they set there mind on something its history, but unlike the bastardised PB there nature is ralativly unchanged and thats quite a gental nature in general the pities I have found triger into death mode some what faster and have no concers with a person, a stafie has more brains and usually only takes on things its own size.

[george formby]

we are kinda on the same team here, yeah the Staffie specs have changed over the years and the yank version differs ie leg length etc, yeah the Staffie was is a fighting dog, they are very much a one track minded mutt and once they set there mind on something its history, but unlike the bastardised PB there nature is ralativly unchanged and thats quite a gental nature in general the pities I have found triger into death mode some what faster and have no concers with a person, a stafie has more brains and usually only takes on things its own size.

I like the usually, we rescued a pit bred Staffie in the UK years ago, what a challenge he was but came right in the end. He was totally & irrevocably DA, the bigger the dog the harder he went. Had my heart in my mouth a few times until we figured out how to keep him out of trouble. Took a year or two but he turned into a stunning, balanced pet.

[chiefofthehill]

The Dobie knows his place, whats the kid doing on the staffys blanket?That 'kid' is me alltho I am a bit older now. The blanket may well be the dogs but the rattle was mine.
The Doberman never really ceared much for me or my brother but Ms Staffie always sat right near me and oddly tended to my every need like she was mum, maybe it was because she was a bitch (I mean that in the nicest way)

[george formby]

That 'kid' is me alltho I am a bit older now. The blanket may well be the dogs but the rattle was mine.
The Doberman never really ceared much for me or my brother but Ms Staffie always sat right near me and oddly tended to my every need like she was mum, maybe it was because she was a bitch (I mean that in the nicest way)

Nanny dogs, my mutts the same, loves kids.

[GrayWolf]

Then I would say the German Shepard, there is a reason they use them for police work.
But still even then not all make the grade as they aren't aggressive.


Not correct,
you don not use an 'agggressive' dog for 'man work'. The only breed specifically bred as a 'protection dog' is the Doberman Pinscher.
Doberman was a German tax collector and wanted a dog with strength and speed. The original Dobey is basically a cross between a greyhound type hunting dog and a Rottie. Breeds used by Police Forces are mostly 'herding dogs' as they have a developed 'guarding instinct'. That is not an 'aggressive' characteristic. The GSD is an intellegent working dog with the character traits and genetic abilities for tracking etc that is an easily trainable and successful dog at the job. Prior to the GSD the UK Police used Airdale terriers, they have also used Rottie's in the 1960-70's in small numbers. (considered too much dog, and the poor criminals getting bitten hard). What is used is a CONFIDENT and actually a basically friendly dog by police forces.

[TrentNz]

That 'kid' is me alltho I am a bit older now. The blanket may well be the dogs but the rattle was mine.
The Doberman never really ceared much for me or my brother but Ms Staffie always sat right near me and oddly tended to my every need like she was mum, maybe it was because she was a bitch (I mean that in the nicest way)

heh, funny that, when i was about 4 or 5 my mum left the gate open and i went wandering, i went so far that they couldn't find me but our 110kg+ bull mastiff followed me the whole way and never left my side once