Property costs in NZ - the heart of evil

[Ocean1]

Me too... until one decides he's putting in more effort than another and decides that he should have more of the profit than anyone else. Seems to be the way of the world given the conversations I've had with a few people and the experiences I've had.

No idea which world you live in, Co-ops in this one don't generally have profits.

[mashman]

The Beehive should have been relocated to the middle of cook straight, ( would free up prime land for residential.)

I could also ( when parliament is sitting ) lent out to NPO such as the Australian air-force , or the Fijian navy

for target practice

Stephen

:killingme... nah, too much in the way if expenditure required for that. Great training opportunities all round mind, but it'd be more efficient and effective, within the timeframe you suggest, to bar the windows... and the start filling up all of those rooms. Although the revenues for the target practice sessions would be quite high. The population would probably double and the benefits for the economy would be immense.


No idea which world you live in, Co-ops in this one don't generally have profits.

:yawn:... Artichoke.

[Delerium]

There's fuck all wrong with it.

Houses then were 100 sq metres, now they're 230. By that measure houses are cheaper now than then, size has more than doubled and yet the price has simply gone from 5 years income to 9. So wrt housing your spending power hasn't decreased at all, has it?

Want affordable housing? get the monopolies out of the equation. Start with getting local govt fingers out of the fucking till and then boycott any supplier that can be shown to be charging more than 20% over cost-to-market. I can see a buyers co-op doing quite nicely...



*snort*, still a lot wrong with it.

[Ocean1]

*snort*, still a lot wrong with it.

What's preventing you from building the house your grandparents had for roughly the same number of working hrs income they paid?

Building "standards" constraints.

Fashion.

?????

[Indiana_Jones]

Anyone know of a decent mortgage broker in Dunedin?

-Indy

[Woodman]

Anyone know of a decent mortgage broker in Dunedin?

-Indy

Are they really any use?

[Indiana_Jones]

Are they really any use?

Some people seem to think they can get you really decent rates. Not being a home owner/having a mortgage, I wouldn't know.

-Indy

[Ocean1]

Some people seem to think they can get you really decent rates. Not being a home owner/having a mortgage, I wouldn't know.

-Indy

An industry mate says you can do the same yourself, it's just a matter of actually bargaining with your bank rather than taking their ticket price at face value.

[Woodman]

An industry mate says you can do the same yourself, it's just a matter of actually bargaining with your bank rather than taking their ticket price at face value.

Thats what i was meaning. Same with estate agents when selling, don't let the bastards tell you they can't reduce their commission. Had one tell us that asking for a reduction was something that you just do not do. Bollocks .

[Indiana_Jones]

Hairy muff, makes sense.

Currently with Kiwibank, but might be able to get slightly cheaper rate with Westpac or ANZ as they have some sort of deal with my employer.

Of course it's all bullshit as they're loaning money they don't have.

-Indy

[JimO]

Add to that the fact that you can buy a house in Southland outright for the same price as the deposit on a house in Auckland, and it isn't house prices that are causing the issue, its the blinkers that Aucklanders are wearing that stops them looking south of the Bombay Hills.
i just bought a 4 bedroom brick house with a recently new roof on a 700m2 flat section in a good suberb in DN for 210k as a renter, all it needed was the filth of the last tenant scrubbed out and over time a tidy up, that wouldnt be a deposit for a slum in the worst part of Auckland

[Indiana_Jones]

i just bought a 4 bedroom brick house with a recently new roof on a 700m2 flat section in a good suberb in DN for 210k as a renter, all it needed was the filth of the last tenant scrubbed out and over time a tidy up, that wouldnt be a deposit for a slum in the worst part of Auckland

This is one of the big reasons we moved to Dunners.

Auckland is fucked.

-Indy

[Winston001]

I like Dunedin, was there last weekend, and lived there for 8 years as a student.

Lots of interesting houses in hidden spots you'd never think of.

However in terms of weather and maybe growth, Mosgiel is worth looking at too - only ten minutes further (and that bit closer to Invercargill).

[Ocean1]

However in terms of weather and maybe growth, Mosgiel is worth looking at too - only ten minutes further (and that bit closer to Invercargill).

As long as you stay off the Tairei plains...

[Delerium]

What's preventing you from building the house your grandparents had for roughly the same number of working hrs income they paid?

Building "standards" constraints.

Fashion.

?????

What stopping it is that land and building material costs have increase faster than wages have increased, therefore reduced spending power. Depending on where you live eg auckland, where the land prices are just stupid now, it is worse than other areas.

Fashion? no, I dont think so.

[Indiana_Jones]

I like Dunedin, was there last weekend, and lived there for 8 years as a student.

Lots of interesting houses in hidden spots you'd never think of.

However in terms of weather and maybe growth, Mosgiel is worth looking at too - only ten minutes further (and that bit closer to Invercargill).

Mollywood is on the radar for sure. But isn't an option while we're on one income. Once the kid(s) are at school and the mrs is working again, I'd be quite happy to look at moving there (or Fairfield).

-Indy

[Ocean1]

What stopping it is that land and building material costs have increase faster than wages have increased, therefore reduced spending power. Depending on where you live eg auckland, where the land prices are just stupid now, it is worse than other areas.

Fashion? no, I dont think so.

We've already done that bit, building costs have risen less than house sizes.

So the spending power arguement is bullshit, what I was asking was what caused people to build bigger houses, filled with more toys, borrowing a metric shitload of money in order to do so.

[neels]

We've already dont that bit, building costs have risen less than house sizes.

So the spending power arguement is bullshit, what I was asking was what caused people to build bigger houses, filled with more toys, borrowing a metric shitload of money in order to do so.
The other issue there is that the land being made available is being developed as subdivisions, with the associated covenants to maintain property values etc etc etc, and you're paying a premium for the fancy street lights, big entrance walls with the name of the subdivision and all that other bollocks.

Then when you get to building your house you have a minimum size that you have to build to certain asthetic standards, so the option of building a perfectly liveable 120m house which would probably cost you a bit over $200k doesn't exist.

[Banditbandit]

i just bought a 4 bedroom brick house with a recently new roof on a 700m2 flat section in a good suberb in DN for 210k as a renter,

Faugh .. you can buy a house that you can live in for under $100,000 in Opotiki ..

Here you go .. 3 bedrooms $98.000

http://opotiki.harcourts.co.nz/Property/610049/OP3692/118-Richard-Street-

[rustyrobot]

Faugh .. you can buy a house that you can live in for under $100,000 in Opotiki ..

Here you go .. 3 bedrooms $98.000

http://opotiki.harcourts.co.nz/Property/610049/OP3692/118-Richard-Street-

Now you're just being a tease. I don't think you could buy a garage in Wellington for that money.

There's faugh all work in Opotiki though - and there's the rub.

Update: Sorry, I stand corrected, while not quite a garage, you can get this carpark (http://www.trademe.co.nz/property/residential/sections-for-sale/auction-711238514.htm) for a mere $70k :facepalm:

[Banditbandit]

That's why I left Wellington - fucking commercial rat race ..

And if you sell up in Wellington and pay cash for this place, why work? Plenty of fishing and other ways to get food - and with no mortgage life is sweet ..

[mashman]

That's why I left Wellington - fucking commercial rat race ..

And if you sell up in Wellington and pay cash for this place, why work? Plenty of fishing and other ways to get food - and with no mortgage life is sweet ..

Oh so tempting, oh so very very very tempting.

[Ocean1]

The other issue there is that the land being made available is being developed as subdivisions, with the associated covenants to maintain property values etc etc etc, and you're paying a premium for the fancy street lights, big entrance walls with the name of the subdivision and all that other bollocks.

Then when you get to building your house you have a minimum size that you have to build to certain asthetic standards, so the option of building a perfectly liveable 120m house which would probably cost you a bit over $200k doesn't exist.

Aye. So building standards compliance costs, territorial authority compliance costs AND fashion compliance costs, all responsible for a substaitial part of these silly prices, particularly in the big cities. Parasitic, for the most part, the lot of them, along with materials monopolies the CC apparently has little intent to control. Remove the mechanism that requires the market to deal exclusively with any of them, on their own non-negotiable terms and watch housing costs plummet.

[Brian d marge]

That's why I left Wellington - fucking commercial rat race ..

And if you sell up in Wellington and pay cash for this place, why work? Plenty of fishing and other ways to get food - and with no mortgage life is sweet ..

Tell me about it , Just need the fishing and a bigger garden ....

Stephen

[mashman]

Tell me about it , Just need the fishing and a bigger garden ....

Stephen

We only need 5 or six of us (http://www.trademe.co.nz/property/residential/sections-for-sale/auction-642292463.htm) :D

[BoristheBiter]

We only need 5 or six of us (http://www.trademe.co.nz/property/residential/sections-for-sale/auction-642292463.htm) :D

why 5 or 6?

[mashman]

why 5 or 6?

No. 5 or six.

[BoristheBiter]

No. 5 or six.

You said "5 or six of us" why?

This is the perfect place for you to start your own NOW...............miles from everyone else.

[mashman]

You said "5 or six of us" why?

This is the perfect place for you to start your own NOW...............miles from everyone else.

5 or 6 to share development costs... maybe even a vision (but nothing to do with NOW).

My own NOW :facepalm:.

[Banditbandit]

I had a place in the country where I grew my own food - plants and animals - harvested the wild food ...

It's hard work and a young man's game - especially in the mountains where it snows .. (which is fun for a couple of seasons and then just boring and dreary ...)

I sold that and bought a place here on the waterfront - fishing and gardening is so much better for us elderly people ..

[mashman]

I had a place in the country where I grew my own food - plants and animals - harvested the wild food ...

It's hard work and a young man's game - especially in the mountains where it snows .. (which is fun for a couple of seasons and then just boring and dreary ...)

I sold that and bought a place here on the waterfront - fishing and gardening is so much better for us elderly people ..

http://ih1.redbubble.net/image.7488144.0310/flat,550x550,075,f.jpg

[HenryDorsetCase]

Lawks a lawdy.

talking to a man today who was going to sell his fairly nice, EQ repaired family home in Redwood. Dithered a bit then decided to rent it out: $650 a week unfurnished.

What the hell? Who can afford that shit?

[BoristheBiter]

5 or 6 to share development costs... maybe even a vision (but nothing to do with NOW).

My own NOW :facepalm:.

But all you need to do is sell your NOW idea to 5 or 6 people and you don't need any money.:niceone:

[mashman]

But all you need to do is sell your NOW idea to 5 or 6 people and you don't need any money.:niceone:

If I wanted to start a Kibbutz, then I'd start a Kibbutz.

[BoristheBiter]

If I wanted to start a Kibbutz, then I'd start a Kibbutz.

So..........you ..........don't want to live in your NOW world. So why do you harp on about its greatness then?

[Woodman]

So..........you ..........don't want to live in your NOW world. So why do you harp on about its greatness then?

For our entertainment.?

[BoristheBiter]

For our entertainment.?

It's not that entertaining.

[mashman]

So..........you ..........don't want to live in your NOW world. So why do you harp on about its greatness then?

Of course I do. NOW is a country level thing. Kibbutzszzszez are so 60's man.


For our entertainment.?

I hope so.

[Banditbandit]

cut - pix of pipe and slippers

:killingme You're can call me old when you can beat me on the road ... long-distance ..

[mashman]

:killingme You're can call me old when you can beat me on the road ... long-distance ..

I was thinking more of a house invasion, not in the middle of the street :shifty:

[HenryDorsetCase]

So the spending power argument is bullshit, what I was asking was what caused people to build bigger houses, filled with more toys, borrowing a metric shitload of money in order to do so.

That's been really noticeable to me too: huge mcmansions on tiny sites with 7 bedrooms and 8 bathrooms. filled with shit on dripfeed that you have to dust.

That home of the year thing on tv last night (two cubical boxes next to an estuary in northland) are maybe a sign of disenchantment with that.

Our new house when we build it will be on a 450 or 500 sq m site, and the house will be round 140 sq m, garage double with carport. that will do me till they carry me out in a box I reckon. Some garden but not too much, double garage for toys, car in a a carport, well designed and well insulated dwelling. which will be earthquake proof and have a higher floor level. cost per square metre is up there but there arent many square metres. and I already own most of the building.....

[Banditbandit]

When I bought my house in Wellington I looked at the two-storeyed garage down stairs .. I walked into the garage with the real estate salesman - it was a double garage with a pit - a wash basin area, toilet and a large workbench.

I gave him my price for the property, signed the offer, and then he asked if I wanted to look at the rest of the place ... I said I suppose so ...

I had 10 bikes and a car in the garage with plenty of work area .. the house was up the hill a bit .. who needed that? (well, the wife did - but then I spent all my time in the garage - we are no longer married)

[BoristheBiter]

Of course I do. NOW is a country level thing. Kibbutzszzszez are so 60's man.



Sorry i don't remember the 60's

[mashman]

Sorry i don't remember the 60's

I've been told that that can happen when you're in your 80's.

[BoristheBiter]

I've been told that that can happen when you're in your 80's.

No it is due to the fact i wasn't born then :bleh:

[mashman]

No it is due to the fact i wasn't born then :bleh:

heh... I had a feeling that may well have been the case, but where was the fun in that eh :niceone:

[BoristheBiter]

heh... I had a feeling that may well have been the case, but where was the fun in that eh :niceone:

Mind you after spending all day working above a glass furnace I feel 80.:blink:

[mashman]

Mind you after spending all day working above a glass furnace I feel 80.:blink:

I believe a nice cold beer or two would be what the Dr ordered.

[BoristheBiter]

I believe a nice cold beer or two would be what the Dr ordered.

only one left:facepalm:

[mashman]

only one left:facepalm:

Sounds like a job for the gimp.

[BoristheBiter]

Sounds like a job for the gimp.

Get your mask on then.

[mashman]

Get your mask on then.

You bring the lube and it's a date.

[Ocean1]

That's been really noticeable to me too: huge mcmansions on tiny sites with 7 bedrooms and 8 bathrooms. filled with shit on dripfeed that you have to dust.

That home of the year thing on tv last night (two cubical boxes next to an estuary in northland) are maybe a sign of disenchantment with that.

Nah, just more of the same social pissing contest, who can be the most avant garde consumer on the block. I mean ffs who hires an architect to sketch up a black box?

Sounds like you're onto it, have you found much info about sun-trap type structures? BRANZ published a good guide, and there was a revival of interest a year or two ago, and book I completely failed to track down...

[BoristheBiter]

You bring the lube and it's a date.

Sorry mate, it's user pays up here.

[mashman]

Sorry mate, it's user pays up here.

Give that I'm gonna be used as the gimp, you're gonna be the user. Tight bastard... you must be Scottish.

[BMWST?]

Nah, just more of the same social pissing contest, who can be the most avant garde consumer on the block

There is an interesting scheme afoot.I beleive its called the simple house,about 140 sq m max and costs no more than 1400 a sq m,simple shapes simple roofs,and a simplified code to go with it,do some sums on that.
Some of the cost of the modern house is linked to the more complex codes and the better engineering for wind and earthquake.We have much better fixings through houses now,and that involves time and materials.The double garage and ldy adds 40 sq m to the average house.in the 50 and 60 a lot of people didnt own cars let alone have a garage

[BoristheBiter]

There is an interesting scheme afoot.I beleive its called the simple house,about 140 sq m max and costs no more than 1400 a sq m,simple shapes simple roofs,and a simplified code to go with it,do some sums on that.
Some of the cost of the modern house is linked to the more complex codes and the better engineering for wind and earthquake.We have much better fixings through houses now,and that involves time and materials.The double garage and ldy adds 40 sq m to the average house.in the 50 and 60 a lot of people didnt own cars let alone have a garage

Hell we didn't have a driveway, or a telly. now they want one in every room (telly that is).

[BMWST?]

Hell we didn't have a driveway, or a telly. now they want one in every room (telly that is).

I do frames and trusses for a crust,you wouldnt beleive how hard we have to work on the simplest looking house,very high wind all hipped rooves,big open plan spaces, and large openings push our truss program and fixings to the max,and I beleive in many cases are outside the scope of nzs 3604( or the spirit of it)

[Brian d marge]

I could build a big house for 2/5th of fk all if the men from the ministry would let me , and pretty sharp it would look an all

Stephen

[James Deuce]

There is an interesting scheme afoot.I beleive its called the simple house,about 140 sq m max and costs no more than 1400 a sq m,simple shapes simple roofs,and a simplified code to go with it,do some sums on that.


Still far too expensive. You're not getting any change out of $600k to build that in Greytown, let alone Auckland.

[BMWST?]

Still far too expensive. You're not getting any change out of $600k to build that in Greytown, let alone Auckland.

Eh,140x1400=196,000 and that at the top end of the scheme,plus land which the other side of the equation

[Ocean1]

There is an interesting scheme afoot.I beleive its called the simple house,about 140 sq m max and costs no more than 1400 a sq m,simple shapes simple roofs,and a simplified code to go with it,do some sums on that.
Some of the cost of the modern house is linked to the more complex codes and the better engineering for wind and earthquake.We have much better fixings through houses now,and that involves time and materials.The double garage and ldy adds 40 sq m to the average house.in the 50 and 60 a lot of people didnt own cars let alone have a garage

That was sort of my point. Rants about comparative housing costs seem to always compare 50's and 60's prices with todays and completely ignore the fact that the houses couldn't be more different.

As for construction standards... I know enough about how they're instigated and specified to suggest that some are merely sops to the politically correct. Like double glazing.

Still. Reasons to be pissed remain. Modern materials cost a fraction to manufacture of those available then, and yet manage to command higher prices from the end user. Councils insert themselves into the money flow issuing from developments and milk it for all it's worth, forcing unreasonably high land prices.

[BoristheBiter]

I do frames and trusses for a crust,you wouldnt beleive how hard we have to work on the simplest looking house,very high wind all hipped rooves,big open plan spaces, and large openings push our truss program and fixings to the max,and I beleive in many cases are outside the scope of nzs 3604( or the spirit of it)

I was a draftsman for nicks building before I went back to engineering.


Still far too expensive. You're not getting any change out of $600k to build that in Greytown, let alone Auckland.

WTF, top lockwood is based on 3000 per sqm, that would make it a 200sqm house

[James Deuce]

Eh,140x1400=196,000 and that at the top end of the scheme,plus land which the other side of the equation

Land. $150k for a freehold 500m2 section in Greytown. So you're at $350k with no council approval, no interior finishing, no driveway, no garage, no fencing, no paving, no clothesline, and no utilities connection fees, no furniture, no curtains. There's no mention of kitchen or bathroom appliances and fittings or carpet. There needs to be heating and ventilation systems in their too. The council charges $6k per utility to hook it up and reserves the right to inspect the build at any time at your cost of $148/hour. So we'll call that $15k. $365k. Driveways work out at between $10 and $15k per 20m of single width paving over here. We'll go conservative with the driveway and paving and say $50k. $415k. Garage. A single Ideal with a concrete floor and workspace is about $25k if you want power and water. $440k. Houseload of shitty carpet that will need replacing in 5 years. $8k. We'll budget $2k for the inevitable carpeting fuck ups. $450k, INterior finishing, $20k, $470k. Basic bathroom, $5k, $475k. Basic kitchen pack and appliances, $15k. $490k, Curtains - really nasty ones, $2.5k. $492.5k. Section fencing, basic 1.5m timber, $20k. Landscaping and plants, basic, $5k, so we've already creaked over $500k. Don't forget to add the magic council fees to get compliance for all the things they didn't tell you about before you started and you can add an extra $5k for that minimum. Then there will be all the stuff that plumbers and sparkies get wrong during the build that you have to call people back to fix. The original tradepeople magically disappear along with their work standards guarantees so you have to pay again.

Building a house may not be rocket science. Fleecing a "customer" is down to a fine art in NZ though, from the council to the decorator, as is hiding all the building variables in post-build variations invoices. If you don't budget $600k for that build, you're an idiot. You then end up with a house that will have an RV of $420k and a market value of $340-$380k, depending on how desperate the vendor is to ditch the debt lemon they just built.

We've gone into this in detail, and decided that if we build, we have to stay in it for 20 years, planning for one major boom and bust cycle during that time, to start making money on any house build "investment".

[James Deuce]

WTF, top lockwood is based on 3000 per sqm, that would make it a 200sqm house

There's more to any build than what Lockwood quote, and the number of people who've gone bankrupt in the last 2 years trying to build here based on a spec home builder's quote is phenomenal. One couple we know have just divorced and managed to sell an $810k build for $665k. They were quoted $580k. They were presented with a $230k variation at the end of build.

[Brian d marge]

Land. $150k for a freehold 500m2 section in Greytown. So you're at $350k with no council approval, no interior finishing, no driveway, no garage, no fencing, no paving, no clothesline, and no utilities connection fees, no furniture, no curtains. There's no mention of kitchen or bathroom appliances and fittings or carpet. There needs to be heating and ventilation systems in their too. The council charges $6k per utility to hook it up and reserves the right to inspect the build at any time at your cost of $148/hour. So we'll call that $15k. $365k. Driveways work out at between $10 and $15k per 20m of single width paving over here. We'll go conservative with the driveway and paving and say $50k. $415k. Garage. A single Ideal with a concrete floor and workspace is about $25k if you want power and water. $440k. Houseload of shitty carpet that will need replacing in 5 years. $8k. We'll budget $2k for the inevitable carpeting fuck ups. $450k, INterior finishing, $20k, $470k. Basic bathroom, $5k, $475k. Basic kitchen pack and appliances, $15k. $490k, Curtains - really nasty ones, $2.5k. $492.5k. Section fencing, basic 1.5m timber, $20k. Landscaping and plants, basic, $5k, so we've already creaked over $500k. Don't forget to add the magic council fees to get compliance for all the things they didn't tell you about before you started and you can add an extra $5k for that minimum. Then there will be all the stuff that plumbers and sparkies get wrong during the build that you have to call people back to fix. The original tradepeople magically disappear along with their work standards guarantees so you have to pay again.

Building a house may not be rocket science. Fleecing a "customer" is down to a fine art in NZ though, from the council to the decorator, as is hiding all the building variables in post-build variations invoices. If you don't budget $600k for that build, you're an idiot. You then end up with a house that will have an RV of $420k and a market value of $340-$380k, depending on how desperate the vendor is to ditch the debt lemon they just built.

We've gone into this in detail, and decided that if we build, we have to stay in it for 20 years, planning for one major boom and bust cycle during that time, to start making money on any house build "investment".

A couple of thoughts

1, The NZ dollars doesnt buy much
2,How much of that could you " save"
3, How much would and alternative house cost " IF" they could be built,
4. How can a working stiff pay for such an expense?

Stephen

[Ocean1]

With any increase in the number of units built there's a point where the cost drops dramatically. It's the point at which you're no longer behaving like a cottage industry and start behaving like a production facility.

Glazing units, for example in NZ are made to order, whatever size you want. Takes a week or so, which is actually pretty good for what amounts to a jobing shop. Everywhere else in the world glazing units are manufactured as stock, standard sizes which cover 95% of all residential demand. Prices in NZ are also pretty good, for the service you get, but compared to a glazing unit factory the cost-to-market is fucking appalling. Like over twice the price.

So when I see what should be very promising developments along those lines for complete builds offering "up to 15%" cost savings I have to ask where the other 20% -30% is going...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9907102/Prefab-ulous-cost-savings

Just why the fuck is it that nobody seems able to deliver anything in the residential property market for anything vaguely resembling cost-to-market plus a reasonable margin? Seriously, why?

[Ocean1]

They were presented with a $230k variation at the end of build.

For variations to the original contract they agreed to at the time, presumably?

Or they'd have just laughed in the builders' face.

[BoristheBiter]

There's more to any build than what Lockwood quote, and the number of people who've gone bankrupt in the last 2 years trying to build here based on a spec home builder's quote is phenomenal. One couple we know have just divorced and managed to sell an $810k build for $665k. They were quoted $580k. They were presented with a $230k variation at the end of build.

So now you have moved the goal posts as, if you look above, we were talking building costs.
But to carry on with your line i think you must live in the most expensive part of NZ and that couple must be the dumbest.

But then I know people that have changed what they want in their so many times it has blown the budget out the window then cry that it cost them so much and I have seen builders try and charge extra for doing what they had quoted for in the first place and i have seen people do all the work themselves and get a massive house for less than what a spec house would have cost.

Like you say, it's not rocket science, and if you are being charged what you posted then I would be saying "fuck you" to Greytown and move

Like all investments you have to do your homework, some people get stung as they think they know it all and others get a bargain.

[James Deuce]

For variations to the original contract they agreed to at the time, presumably?

Or they'd have just laughed in the builders' face.

The spec builders make you sign a contract at the start of the process saying you'll accept responsibility for variations submitted at the end of the process. The only spec builder without this clause in their contract is Platinum Homes. Interestingly, they all make you pay $2-$3k to purchase this contract. They call it a deposit. In reality it is the salesperson's commission.

[BoristheBiter]

The spec builders make you sign a contract at the start of the process saying you'll accept responsibility for variations submitted at the end of the process. The only spec builder without this clause in their contract is Platinum Homes. Interestingly, they all make you pay $2-$3k to purchase this contract. They call it a deposit. In reality it is the salesperson's commission.

Yes but you have sign off on variations or, like ocean1 said, you just laugh in they face.

[Ocean1]

The spec builders make you sign a contract at the start of the process saying you'll accept responsibility for variations submitted at the end of the process. The only spec builder without this clause in their contract is Platinum Homes. Interestingly, they all make you pay $2-$3k to purchase this contract. They call it a deposit. In reality it is the salesperson's commission.

Why would anyone sign a contract that allows the supplier to change the contract price at will? I'd be very interested in what a CC lawyer had to say about it. I'd be even more interested to know why they hadn't said it sooner.

Just another example of providers conspiring to control the market, and to tell you the truth you don't have to see such detail to know it's happening, if you've got even the sketchiest idea of the real costs of supply you can see the rot at a thousand yards from the end user prices.

[Brian d marge]

Just a quck note
I have a house here in tokyo （ 30 min by train from city centre) it cost 15 million yen to complete with all mod cons , irs 2 story town house with 3 bedroom 2 toilets and open plan kitchen living room . . . . It is all wood and came from a factory.
The framing went up in a day , from memory 3 month from start to finish
Stephen

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[BMWST?]

Just a quck note
I have a house here in tokyo （ 30 min by train from city centre) it cost 15 million yen to complete with all mod cons , irs 2 story town house with 3 bedroom 2 toilets and open plan kitchen living room . . . . It is all wood and came from a factory.
The framing went up in a day , from memory 3 month from start to finish
Stephen

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

Three _4 months would be normal in nz.most houses are prenailed,so a small house would have the frames up in a day,then the trusses,another day,then if the roofer was available the roof would be on,so not at all inconceivable to have a bare slab monday with a house with a roof and building wrap at the end of the week.

[BMWST?]

Land. $150k for a freehold 500m2 section in Greytown. So you're at $350k with no council approval, no interior finishing, no driveway, no garage, no fencing, no paving, no clothesline, and no utilities connection fees, no furniture, no curtains. There's no mention of kitchen or bathroom appliances and fittings or carpet. There needs to be heating and ventilation systems in their too. The council charges $6k per utility to hook it up and reserves the right to inspect the build at any time at your cost of $148/hour. So we'll call that $15k. $365k. Driveways work out at between $10 and $15k per 20m of single width paving over here. We'll go conservative with the driveway and paving and say $50k. $415k. Garage. A single Ideal with a concrete floor and workspace is about $25k if you want power and water. $440k. Houseload of shitty carpet that will need replacing in 5 years. $8k. We'll budget $2k for the inevitable carpeting fuck ups. $450k, INterior finishing, $20k, $470k. Basic bathroom, $5k, $475k. Basic kitchen pack and appliances, $15k. $490k, Curtains - really nasty ones, $2.5k. $492.5k. Section fencing, basic 1.5m timber, $20k. Landscaping and plants, basic, $5k, so we've already creaked over $500k. Don't forget to add the magic council fees to get compliance for all the things they didn't tell you about before you started and you can add an extra $5k for that minimum. Then there will be all the stuff that plumbers and sparkies get wrong during the build that you have to call people back to fix. The original tradepeople magically disappear along with their work standards guarantees so you have to pay again.

Building a house may not be rocket science. Fleecing a "customer" is down to a fine art in NZ though, from the council to the decorator, as is hiding all the building variables in post-build variations invoices. If you don't budget $600k for that build, you're an idiot. You then end up with a house that will have an RV of $420k and a market value of $340-$380k, depending on how desperate the vendor is to ditch the debt lemon they just built.

We've gone into this in detail, and decided that if we build, we have to stay in it for 20 years, planning for one major boom and bust cycle during that time, to start making money on any house build "investment".

No.the $1400 sq m is for the house finished.land drives garages,utilities etc on top.its not just a shell.

[BMWST?]

With any increase in the number of units built there's a point where the cost drops dramatically. It's the point at which you're no longer behaving like a cottage industry and start behaving like a production facility.

Glazing units, for example in NZ are made to order, whatever size you want. Takes a week or so, which is actually pretty good for what amounts to a jobing shop. Everywhere else in the world glazing units are manufactured as stock, standard sizes which cover 95% of all residential demand. Prices in NZ are also pretty good, for the service you get, but compared to a glazing unit factory the cost-to-market is fucking appalling. Like over twice the price.

So when I see what should be very promising developments along those lines for complete builds offering "up to 15%" cost savings I have to ask where the other 20% -30% is going...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9907102/Prefab-ulous-cost-savings

Just why the fuck is it that nobody seems able to deliver anything in the residential property market for anything vaguely resembling cost-to-market plus a reasonable margin? Seriously, why?

Thats a good question.it cant be for lack of trying.a large part of it is alluded to above.there is no scale.every house is different.even the likes of keith hay homes didnt.manufacture their own houses

[James Deuce]

No.the $1400 sq m is for the house finished.land drives garages,utilities etc on top.its not just a shell.

Can't see it happening. Sounds like bullshit fairyland rubbish to me, because it will neuter every spec builder in the country, unless its building code is worse than the Philipines. We've seriously gone into every spec builder in the Wairarapa and the cheapest 140sqm 3-4 bed house is in the mid to late 400s providied you sacrifice driveway and fencing and buy a 500sqm section. I'm not making it up. Therefore I simply don;t believe your assertion. You'll have the whole building industry in NZ collapsing if they introduce that.

[Woodman]

Anyone here actually tried to buy a small house in a good area? We tried and it was damn near impossible and ended up with a place that is way too big for our needs. We looked at building at the time, but small was off the radar in relation to covenants etc in the area we wanted to live.

They have you by the short and curlies really. Who influences the rules around size of houses the most? Councils, developers?, builders?

[BMWST?]

Can't see it happening. Sounds like bullshit fairyland rubbish to me, because it will neuter every spec builder in the country, unless its building code is worse than the Philipines. We've seriously gone into every spec builder in the Wairarapa and the cheapest 140sqm 3-4 bed house is in the mid to late 400s providied you sacrifice driveway and fencing and buy a 500sqm section. I'm not making it up. Therefore I simply don;t believe your assertion. You'll have the whole building industry in NZ collapsing if they introduce that.

Its a new initiative,and one of my regulars customers is convinced he can do it.BUT
They will be relatively small no frills boxes 120 to 140 sq m max

[BMWST?]

Anyone here actually tried to buy a small house in a good area? We tried and it was damn near impossible and ended up with a place that is way too big for our needs. We looked at building at the time, but small was off the radar in relation to covenants etc in the area we wanted to live.

They have you by the short and curlies really. Who influences the rules around size of houses the most? Councils, developers?, builders?

Market.people want 200 250 sq m complex shspes it seems ,and most developments are set up so that thats all that gets built in that area
There will be minimum room sizes set down somewhere,but I bet it's not the building code delivering 250 sq m housed

[Brett]

The spec builders make you sign a contract at the start of the process saying you'll accept responsibility for variations submitted at the end of the process. The only spec builder without this clause in their contract is Platinum Homes. Interestingly, they all make you pay $2-$3k to purchase this contract. They call it a deposit. In reality it is the salesperson's commission.

Not in ANY of the many building companies that I have worked with/for (although for the last 6 or 7 years I have only project managed/built houses for myself - so times might have changed). In the building companies that I have worked for, prior to entering business management, we always agree'd variations at the time and got them approved. They were paid for in the payment claim for that portion of works - ie deposit, completion of slab, midfloor framing up, roof on etc. depending on how the contract was set up. Never were costs accrued and bulk invoiced at the end of the project. I also wouldn't sign a contract where I don't know roughly what the end bill is going to be. Cost management needs to occur right across the project duration.

Re: desposits, they are necessary to help manage the cash flow of the project. Where it goes wrong is when the building company use it fund other projects which they have priced wrong, are being on payments with etc. Yes, some of it is the salesman's commission, however not a whole heap. Any business has head office overheads to cover as well, this is a fact of business - even building houses. Don't like it, then build it yourself - but don't be surprised when you aren't happy with the architect or architectural designers services, can't get tradesman or only get poor quality workmanship, hit issues with council over missed building inspections or not getting engineer sign off on items as required or miss important technical details. I have been exposed to this industry since I was 10 years old through my parents. I have seen how the industry has changed...there is a lot more challenge involved in designing, permitting and building even just a basic house these days and as long as red tape continues to get worse, it will only become more challenging. This is the opportunity/cost that potential home builders need to weigh up.

Also - those claiming that building companies are creaming it on the margins - think again. Times have and are tough out there still. Not as bad as they were, but still highly competitive. Costs of tradesman now (assuming building companies aren't using cheap imported labour - something I do, and always have, refused to do myself.) And the driver behind tradesman rates? Supply/Demand and compliance costs. To fix: increase labour supply through good apprenticeship training (as the work picks up over the next few years) and reduce beaurecratic red tape.

Personally, I believe land prices are part of the killer. As long as land remains as expensive as it is, it is going to be challenging to build a new house at what many people consider to be an affordable price - talking about suburban areas in main centers - you can buy a big block of land for $150k if you're willing to live in a remote area.

[Brett]

Market.people want 200 250 sq m complex shspes it seems ,and most developments are set up so that thats all that gets built in that area
There will be minimum room sizes set down somewhere,but I bet it's not the building code delivering 250 sq m housed

IMO to get a reasonable value of house at the end of the day for the average family, you are looking at around 220m2. I have many plans around this size that I use/have used for 4 bedroom family homes. They are designed to optimize space and simplify the building structure to eliminate the more expensive structural elements, complicated roofing designs etc. that come from complicated houses. Managing the build myself and sourcing all materials I can build for $1240 + GST per m2 including basic landscaping. Still look like (and are) high quality houses. Last one I did was last year.

[BMWST?]

IMO to get a reasonable value of house at the end of the day for the average family, you are looking at around 220m2. I have many plans around this size that I use/have used for 4 bedroom family homes. They are designed to optimize space and simplify the building structure to eliminate the more expensive structural elements, complicated roofing designs etc. that come from complicated houses. Managing the build myself and sourcing all materials I can build for $1240 + GST per m2 including basic landscaping. Still look like (and are) high quality houses. Last one I did was last year.

Cant get much simpler on shape than that.i am intrigued by this value propasition.granted two sections in the same area are the same price,but surely a two bedroom house will be cheaper than a 4 bedroom house

[JimO]

Cant get much simpler on shape than that.i am intrigued by this value propasition.granted two sections in the same area are the same price,but surely a two bedroom house will be cheaper than a 4 bedroom house
not much, there is fuck all in a bedroom, a bit of extra concrete, gib and roofing, if you had a price for a 4 bed house then told them to price a 2 bed there would be fuck all difference, adding 2 bedrooms to a existing house is a different kettle of kippers

[Brett]

not much, there is fuck all in a bedroom, a bit of extra concrete, gib and roofing, if you had a price for a 4 bed house then told them to price a 2 bed there would be fuck all difference, adding 2 bedrooms to a existing house is a different kettle of kippers

On the mark to a degree. The cost apportionment per m2 of xtra space is an awkward one. Bathrooms, Kitchens and rooms with lots of services are much more expensive per m2 than space that is little more than foundation and extra roofing. However, there are knock on effects if your not careful. That extra 1m width on a living area that is 5m long may only be an extra $500 of foundations and maybe $500 of roofing etc. but it could say cause you to have to upgrade joists or roofing beams because the span of the structural members has gone beyond what lower cost materials can handle, thus requiring steel beams, laminate timber beams etc. This principle can affect almost any area in a house. As with anything, scales of economy do help beyond a certain size, but equally, there is also a base cost component that distorts savings at a low house size - without considering any structural adjustments required due to building proportions.

It IS possible to build a small but nice and efficient 2 bedroom home for around $1200 per m2, but it takes knowing what is required to achieve this. Similar principles apply to commercial buildings as well.

[Brett]

My logic is to not spend a fortune on fancy design that only builders, architects and 1% of the population will understand the value in. Rather, simplify the design and spend extra on things that really matter, like LED lighting, good quality window joinery, GOOD insulation, innovative, thoughtful use of what would otherwise be dead space, nice door hardware, good quality kitchen and bathroom fittings etc. People really do notice this, and if the colours and general aesthetic elements to the building are properly considered, it doesn't look at all like you have picked the house structure for cost effectiveness. Trust me, that picture of that house doesn't do it justice...and it looks pretty impressive at night when lit up with the exterior lighting. It's just one I happened to have on hand to post. Architectural wank factor is great if you have the budget for it, but if not, don't be tempted by it. It is really easy to double the cost of building a building without actually being able to appreciate exactly why it cost 2 -4 times more to build...for most people at least.

[BMWST?]

My logic is to not spend a fortune on fancy design that only builders, architects and 1% of the population will understand the value in. Rather, simplify the design and spend extra on things that really matter, like LED lighting, good quality window joinery, GOOD insulation, innovative, thoughtful use of what would otherwise be dead space, nice door hardware, good quality kitchen and bathroom fittings etc. People really do notice this, and if the colours and general aesthetic elements to the building are properly considered, it doesn't look at all like you have picked the house structure for cost effectiveness. Trust me, that picture of that house doesn't do it justice...and it looks pretty impressive at night when lit up with the exterior lighting. It's just one I happened to have on hand to post. Architectural wank factor is great if you have the budget for it, but if not, don't be tempted by it. It is really easy to double the cost of building a building without actually being able to appreciate exactly why it cost 2 -4 times more to build...for most people at least.

Its very hard to define but some people are able to design a house that looks good and the rooms feel right.without going to the extremes a good architect will design a house that works well and appeals more than another house.not always a "proper" architect either.

[Ocean1]

not always a "proper" architect either.

Architect training is far more about art than science or engineering. Which makes their professional advice a purely subjective opinion, rather than a quantifiable one.

An opinion shaped mostly by fashion and law at that, two aspects of residential building advice I'd rather not have at all let alone actually pay for.

[BMWST?]

Architect training is far more about art than science or engineering. Which makes their professional advice a purely subjective opinion, rather than a quantifiable one.

An opinion shaped mostly by fashion and law at that, two aspects of residential building advice I'd rather not have at all let alone actually pay for.

Dunno about that,honestly.As above some houses just function and feel a whole lot better than other equivalent houses.The better ones will have been blessed by somone who have a real talent and maybe some training

[Brett]

Its very hard to define but some people are able to design a house that looks good and the rooms feel right.without going to the extremes a good architect will design a house that works well and appeals more than another house.not always a "proper" architect either.

I design all of the building I build for myself and then get an AD to just do the working details. definitely not a necessity to pay massive fee's to an architect to get a good design. 100% with you there.

[Brett]

Dunno about that,honestly.As above some houses just function and feel a whole lot better than other equivalent houses.The better ones will have been blessed by somone who have a real talent and maybe some training

As you said, some people have the knack for working out spaces and imagining how the will 'feel' and others just don't. Same way some people 'get' interior design and intuitively know what will work but others can't get the same vision. people just have different talents.

[badlieutenant]

One thing not covered much here is the hangover from the leaky building. Alot of good trades people got burned. They built to code but the code was pretty crap, let alone the wankers short cutting a bad solution. Even now Ill never do a stucco clad home.
Im liable for failure of any buildings Im involved with for rather a long time. And as someone who at this stage just wants to take home a wage/self employed I have to consider that I might be working for minimum or less should I have to defend work Ive been involved with.
Even if Im not the main signatory using his lbp number, Ill be listed in the record of work at the end of the job.
Some of the large spec home companies want the builds to cost very little. One job we quoted on (state home) allowed 560.00 to install 20 windows and doors. I have seen the people who can do it for that and the joinery looks crap and they are fixed with a framing gun. We lost the contract but got the job after the cowboys they got in screwed up 18K of piles. We were charge up and did a awesome job imho and it cost them 6k more. For 2 houses.
The house I want one day will be a freaking simple box with lots of space. Im too practical to want lots of corners in a house. Id rather swap corners for space. Im going to spend more time in my house rather than standing outside it admiring my homes awesome shape.
Times wise for a simple T shaped home with double garage (internal access) @ around 260sqmters brick and tiles home, we have done one in just under 4 weeks from slab to us walking away. Sparkies ,plumbers, plasterers and some odds n ends to attend to but 99% of our work was done. Well managed site. No changes by client (except for partion wall in master bedroom but that was no big deal)

Interesting home there Brett. Is that hot block masonry ? I like the rough painted finish. do the windows have a drip edge ? (im anal about directing moisture away :))

[Brett]

One thing not covered much here is the hangover from the leaky building. Alot of good trades people got burned. They built to code but the code was pretty crap, let alone the wankers short cutting a bad solution. Even now Ill never do a stucco clad home.
Im liable for failure of any buildings Im involved with for rather a long time. And as someone who at this stage just wants to take home a wage/self employed I have to consider that I might be working for minimum or less should I have to defend work Ive been involved with.
Even if Im not the main signatory using his lbp number, Ill be listed in the record of work at the end of the job.
Some of the large spec home companies want the builds to cost very little. One job we quoted on (state home) allowed 560.00 to install 20 windows and doors. I have seen the people who can do it for that and the joinery looks crap and they are fixed with a framing gun. We lost the contract but got the job after the cowboys they got in screwed up 18K of piles. We were charge up and did a awesome job imho and it cost them 6k more. For 2 houses.
The house I want one day will be a freaking simple box with lots of space. Im too practical to want lots of corners in a house. Id rather swap corners for space. Im going to spend more time in my house rather than standing outside it admiring my homes awesome shape.
Times wise for a simple T shaped home with double garage (internal access) @ around 260sqmters brick and tiles home, we have done one in just under 4 weeks from slab to us walking away. Sparkies ,plumbers, plasterers and some odds n ends to attend to but 99% of our work was done. Well managed site. No changes by client (except for partion wall in master bedroom but that was no big deal)

Interesting home there Brett. Is that hot block masonry ? I like the rough painted finish. do the windows have a drip edge ? (im anal about directing moisture away :))

On the money comments there mate. I wouldn't want to touch stucco either. In fact, I wont engage in residential projects that are not brick, stone, ply/batten or weatherboard clad. Not keen on those shingle over ply roofs either. Happy with tiles (clay or concrete) and most of the metal profile stuff.

Yeah, the finish on that house - most people either loved it or hated it (only a handful of haters, most loved it). It's a bag-wash finish over a Monier Presto double height brick - bricks were seconds for added irregularity and character (also being 70% of the price of firsts). Personally I absolutely LOVE this finish, especially when lit up at night with nice copper up-down canister lights - looked very very cool. Yes, windows had a drip edge. The inside on that place came up exceptionally well - I tried a few new things and some new paint colours etc. and it exceeded my expectations. For what was a project where cost was very tightly managed, it doesn't look it. (I know what expensive CAN be...have also built projects where cost has been no consideration!)

Haven't done too much with Hot Blocks, but was thinking of making our next house (our own personal house) a project using them.

[badlieutenant]

On the money comments there mate. I wouldn't want to touch stucco either. In fact, I wont engage in residential projects that are not brick, stone, ply/batten or weatherboard clad. Not keen on those shingle over ply roofs either. Happy with tiles (clay or concrete) and most of the metal profile stuff.

Yeah, the finish on that house - most people either loved it or hated it (only a handful of haters, most loved it). It's a bag-wash finish over a Monier Presto double height brick - bricks were seconds for added irregularity and character (also being 70% of the price of firsts). Personally I absolutely LOVE this finish, especially when lit up at night with nice copper up-down canister lights - looked very very cool. Yes, windows had a drip edge. The inside on that place came up exceptionally well - I tried a few new things and some new paint colors etc. and it exceeded my expectations. For what was a project where cost was very tightly managed, it doesn't look it. (I know what expensive CAN be...have also built projects where cost has been no consideration!)

Haven't done too much with Hot Blocks, but was thinking of making our next house (our own personal house) a project using them.
kewl :D reminds me of one of my favorite projects on grand designs. The one with the very onto it chick that sourced brick rejects to achieve a similar look. And she came under budget and in time.
Ive only a done a couple of projects in masonry (out karaka development) and its a awesome product in terms of performance but cost wise its pretty dear from what I can tell. Just the weight of it demands greater structural design. you will get sick to death of tying steel :) And do not ever forget to put a service in before a grout pour (or at any stage) :D In terms of look and performance/cost I think yours is better :D
The bitumen based slate looking product looked like it would work pretty well so long as your not on tank supply.

In terms of building cost in nz, from my perspective, its not the builders making things more expensive. We seem to go thru a 15 year cycle of the same hourly rate then a bump up then the same for ages. Nor do we have job security. Im normally planning 3-4 months in advance but plans can fall thru. Its not for money I like my job that's for sure.
I wouldn't be surprised if fuel contributes alot these days as well. I go thru a heap of fuel dragging all my tools around, and some jobs can be over an hours drive. let alone delivery of supplies and their compliance costs for that company.

[Brian d marge]

ahhh fuk it with your 15k compliance costs and you 1200 yen per meter

Ill just shoot you dead and take your house

33 days and counting

if the consistory terrorist are to be believed


Stephen

[Swoop]

Architect training is far more about art than science or engineering.
An architect mate stated "the only thing that stays in an architect's head for more than an hour is a cold".
He was correct too.
Most architects are designing monuments to themselves. One I knew, was asked to come up with a basic "shed" for a sports club, which would have only a couple of fixed requirements. The result... :facepalm: A fucking huge monument to him and his stupidity.

However. On a one-off design that needs to stand out in a world of mediocrity, an architect will come up with breath-taking ideas.

[Ocean1]

More than a little truth to this, too.

"To take a couple of examples, planning rules in Auckland require apartments to be at least 40 square metres," English said.

"And balconies are now required to be 8sqm. These two rules alone add around $80 per week to the rent."

Other rules included minimum subdivision size, ceiling height and even the minimum width of a front door, all adding to costs


http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/9944808/Council-rules-boost-property-prices-English

[BMWST?]

40 sq m is only slightly larger than a double garage,how much smaller do you want to go

[Ocean1]

40 sq m is only slightly larger than a double garage,how much smaller do you want to go

Me? Actually a bit less space wouldn't be a bad idea.

But the correct question is "What reasonable business is it of town hall what size balcony the guy paying for it wants to build"?

And the correct answer is "None whatsoever".

[BMWST?]

Who then assures that your building meets the minimum stds of the building code

[Ocean1]

Who then assures that your building meets the minimum stds of the building code

Assures whom?

[BMWST?]

All interested parties

[Ocean1]

All interested parties

Commercially interested?: Whoever pays for the service.

Anyone else: Can mind their own business.

[BMWST?]

If it is not the local govt that tries to police the building code then who?

[Ocean1]

If it is not the local govt that tries to police the building code then who?

Police it for what? Outré décor?

Most people see some sense in a minimal structural code, (and even that should be overruled by any qualified engineering spec'), but let's not pretend local bodies have any business interfering with their client's choices beyond that. It's now past the stage of absurdity, and time they were told to pull their heads in.

Balcony sizes is the tip of the iceberg, irrelevant, nit-picking bureaucratic interference dominates the industry, and it all adds up to a burden on the homeowner the local councils have no ethical right to impose.

[BMWST?]

Police it for what? Outré décor?

Most people see some sense in a minimal structural code, (and even that should be overruled by any qualified engineering spec'), but let's not pretend local bodies have any business interfering with their client's choices beyond that. It's now past the stage of absurdity, and time they were told to pull their heads in.

Balcony sizes is the tip of the iceberg, irrelevant, nit-picking bureaucratic interference dominates the industry, and it all adds up to a burden on the homeowner the local councils have no ethical right to impose.

I agree that we need a minimum structural performance but i think we do need some stds in place for the basic minimum stds for a dwelling that is for sale as a new entity

[badlieutenant]

Made some amendments to a clients plans last week. The use of different materials to that listed on the permit (strand board instead of ply etc) and a couple of structural changes calculated by the engineer. Cost to client 800$ :angry: the invoice lists photo copying at 300$. The cost of a4 printing probably isn't to bad so if we assume a3 costs a bit more that works out to 50$ a page. Got an extra permit folder tho so thats cool.

Got a email re contract building this evening for Ashcroft homes. They look very similar in design to yours Brett :D
>>> http://www.ashcrofthomes.co.nz/designs/beaumont/
pretty mean pricing. Especially considering my 90sq/mtr second story reno will go over the cost of the base model on that website.

[BMWST?]

Made some amendments to a clients plans last week. The use of different materials to that listed on the permit (strand board instead of ply etc) and a couple of structural changes calculated by the engineer. Cost to client 800$ :angry: the invoice lists photo copying at 300$. The cost of a4 printing probably isn't to bad so if we assume a3 costs a bit more that works out to 50$ a page. Got an extra permit folder tho so thats cool.

Got a email re contract building this evening for Ashcroft homes. They look very similar in design to yours Brett :D
>>> http://www.ashcrofthomes.co.nz/designs/beaumont/
pretty mean pricing. Especially considering my 90sq/mtr second story reno will go over the cost of the base model on that website.

$90 a square meter?Whats that for

[badlieutenant]

$90 a square meter?Whats that for

90 square meter (area not value)

[Brian d marge]

Well we are hete gor a frw weeks and first impressions . . Fk nzis expensive .

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[avgas]

40 sq m is only slightly larger than a double garage,how much smaller do you want to go
These are around half that...
http://www.forbes.com/pictures/ekkl45lkh/335-east-27th-street-manhattan-new-york/

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/ekkl45lkh/providence-rhode-island/

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/ekkl45lkh/seattle-washington/

And the Hong Kong ones are even better.

[unstuck]

I want this, the house is fucked I know. But the section and location are perfect. Plenty of good fishing and floundering, some cool back roads to hoon around on, and the nearest town is miles away.:Punk::Punk: http://www.firstnationalgore.co.nz/buy-residential-real-estate/house-6-mena-street-tokanui-nz-11917102173

[Winston001]

Yep for the right person that looks great (right person = prepared to do repairs etc).

Its in Waikawa too, not Tokonui although hopefully you know that. Curio Bay properties (nearby) are expensive and rare as hens teeth by comparison.

[unstuck]

Its in Waikawa too, not Tokonui although hopefully you know that.

Yep, I put all the telecom lines in for most of the cribs around there, so I know it well. I spend a bit of time there floundering also(exact location a secret). Plus one of the best 4x4 rallies in the south is held just up the road. Would take a bit to do up, but I think the land alone would be worth the asking price.:msn-wink: