Ye old whinging students?

[noobi]

Pure whinging or do they have a point?

I'm a student, Chemical and Material Engineering.

PS, I didn't hold you up on Symonds street, I walked by and laughed at the arts students.

[Brian d marge]

Reach into your pocket and stump up 35k then tell yourself that the job you will get you could pay it back.


and if you believe that all will be well

Stephen

[BMWST?]

Bill english virtually told then to do it!

[oldrider]

Pure whinging or do they have a point?

I'm a student, Chemical and Material Engineering.

PS, I didn't hold you up on Symonds street, I walked by and laughed at the arts students.

In a confused way they have a point and I have some sympathy for their view of their apparent predicament!

They (the students) have been used and exploited by unscrupulous politicians with no other interest except their own political survival.

I don't blame them for falling for that shit but that's as far as my sympathies go!

The only thing you get for nothing in this world ... is nothing!

Anything you get for free means someone else is going to have to pay for it!

Interest free loans for education means taxpayers are supporting/subsidising these loans and IMHO they should have a time limit on them.

Unfortunately unrealistic expectations have been built in for short term returns like buying the student vote and the student is the victim!

Now as the political and "orthodox" financial noose tightens the politicians cant sustain the bribe, they call the debt in and the result is chaos!

The politicians benefit from the chaos by blaming the "greedy" students because this draws the attention away from themselves the creators of the problem! :rolleyes:

The media will act in accordance and allow the students to be exposed as greedy on TV and in the papers just as is happening right now!

The electorate will become polarised by this, "A" and "B" will be at war for the benefit of "C" where "C" is the collective "parliament" of the day!

It's the oldest political ploy in the book, they are all part of it and they and the banks are the only ones that will ultimately benefit from it!

The students are simply pawns in the game but right or wrong "they" and the "taxpayers" will carry the scars of this folly forever! :mad:

It doesn't have to be like this but it will stay this way until the "electorate as a whole" wakes up and changes the financial system from "social debt" to "Social Credit".

Education (among other essential public services) will then be free and affordable again based upon gross national product. (GNP)

I.E. production of goods and services the real wealth of the nation, rather than borrowing intrest bearing fiat money based on nothing from private banks! (social debt)

It is the man made and controlled "Social Debt" system that is currently fucking the world and only man can change that by changing it to "Social Credit" system to reverse the mounting debt cycle.

Change the question from "are the students just winging"? to ... "why are the students winging"? and ask "who benefits from it"? :shifty:

[rustic101]

Now I may be wrong... but this change only affects Post Grad? Study is optional its their choice. Get a part time job, do an apprenticeship, bugger off to Aussie etc.

Once they graduate they will earn 30% more than a direct entry into a given job market?

Their study is already subsidised (don't know by what %) by the Govt. That is over and above what the Uni get from the Govt for operating costs i.e building maintenance and services etc.

When they become dentists, lawyers, architects, engineers and start charging the consumer like a raped bull will they not make their money back? Sure a % goes to their firm, practice etc but hang on a minute they are still well paid in comparison.

They only way I would give them a free Uni education was if they signed and were bonded to the Crown until their debt was paid off. I.E work in a hospital, dental practice,social work, law firm (for a wage) but the user got free treatment etc

If I run out of money I can't rock down to WINZ and get a food grant.

Every body is doing it tough and times are tight. So what are we the rest of NZ suppose to give up so a couple of hippies can reap the rewards later in life while living up Parakai drive in their 40's.

[Road kill]

Fuck the spoon fed cunts.

[Motig]

I can see their point. The govt would have done better to have phased the changes in so that those who had already started / nearly finished their degree did so under the old scheme but that any new students came under the new one. Basically like any contract you stick to it. And while I'm here can someone please explain how the new student loan changes to pay back at 12% instead of 10% fixes the problem of loans not being paid back. All it does is penalise the ones who were already paying, really strange when all the govt pr was about getting tough on the non payers. I'm going off this govt in a big way.

[BoristheBiter]

I can see their point. The govt would have done better to have phased the changes in so that those who had already started / nearly finished their degree did so under the old scheme but that any new students came under the new one. Basically like any contract you stick to it. And while I'm here can someone please explain how the new student loan changes to pay back at 12% instead of 10% fixes the problem of loans not being paid back. All it does is penalise the ones who were already paying, really strange when all the govt pr was about getting tough on the non payers. I'm going off this govt in a big way.

Fuck that, when I went uni I had to pay for it, all up front and only $40 week for student allowance. I had 2 jobs to pay for it all.

These lazy fuckers have it handed to them on a plate and cry when asked to pay it back and don't have to pass an exam to get the next years loan.
Fuck them and the horse they rode in on.

But I do agree with Rustic 101 if we have to pay then pay for jobs that will work in society then put them to work for ten years and that wipes the dept.
If they want to leave they have to pay it all back with interest in one go.
And if they fail to preform and just slack off then the same applies.

[bogan]

But I do agree with Rustic 101 if we have to pay then pay for jobs that will work in society then put them to work for ten years and that wipes the dept.
If they want to leave they have to pay it all back with interest in one go.
And if they fail to preform and just slack off then the same applies.

Problem is NZ doesn't have the jobs a lot of students get qualifications for, or if the job is there, the pay isn't as good as overseas. Training em up, and shipping them off, then requires the 'stick' to get the money back. Start from the top and ensure there are jobs for them, then regardless of whether they pay it back fast or, with interest, they are already assets to society. Hell, if society can make enough use out of graduates, make their education free to begin with! But that'll never happen our, governments are more interested in appeasing the beneficiaries than creating specialized industry :rolleyes:

[BoristheBiter]

Problem is NZ doesn't have the jobs a lot of students get qualifications for, or if the job is there, the pay isn't as good as overseas. Training em up, and shipping them off, then requires the 'stick' to get the money back. Start from the top and ensure there are jobs for them, then regardless of whether they pay it back fast or, with interest, they are already assets to society. Hell, if society can make enough use out of graduates, make their education free to begin with! But that'll never happen our, governments are more interested in appeasing the beneficiaries than creating specialized industry :rolleyes:

Yep, don't disagree, but it is because they get it paid for is the problem and the fact that most courses don't mean shit in the real world. If they had to pay for their courses like we did half wouldn't even be there.

Why should the government make jobs? they just make the foundations on which jobs can be formed.

Successive governments (nats and labour) have pandaed to the greedy for so long everyone now has their hand out wanting their piece of the pie.
The problem is there is no pie left but everyone still has their hand out.

[Motig]

Yes Boris when you did uni it was different, what I'm trying to say is if the govt is going to change the rules they should be phased in so that what you signed on for is what you get.

[BoristheBiter]

Yes Boris when you did uni it was different, what I'm trying to say is if the govt is going to change the rules they should be phased in so that what you signed on for is what you get.

Gee you mean like the real world, no can't be having that now can we.
The government needs to makes some hard decision that some are not going to like, take the teachers for example, but the changes need to be made.

[bogan]

Yep, don't disagree, but it is because they get it paid for is the problem and the fact that most courses don't mean shit in the real world. If they had to pay for their courses like we did half wouldn't even be there.

Why should the government make jobs? they just make the foundations on which jobs can be formed.

Successive governments (nats and labour) have pandaed to the greedy for so long everyone now has their hand out wanting their piece of the pie.
The problem is there is no pie left but everyone still has their hand out.

You may be right that half wouldn't be there, and that would be a shame, as many in that group would get their degrees and be worth more to society in the long run.

Well they need to sort out the foundations then...

I wouldn't consider students part of that greedy group, how much does a full time student get compared to somebody on the benefit? No bloody wonder they have their hands out!

[BoristheBiter]

You may be right that half wouldn't be there, and that would be a shame, as many in that group would get their degrees and be worth more to society in the long run.

Well they need to sort out the foundations then...

I wouldn't consider students part of that greedy group, how much does a full time student get compared to somebody on the benefit? No bloody wonder they have their hands out!

yes i would much prefer to pay for students than doley's.
Could you imagine the uproar if they stop benefit payments?

I think it has to come down to what course you are wanting to do as to whether or not you can get funded for it so we don't end up paying for things like that sunday golf degree that cam up a few years back.
Also make sure it is performance based so if the student is just thick and can't pass, then the funds aren't there.

I have no problem paying for training or loaning out the money to do so but it has to be reasonable and at the moment it isn't.

[Swoop]

i would much prefer to pay for students than doley's.
There is a difference?:scratch:

[noobi]

yes i would much prefer to pay for students than doley's.
Could you imagine the uproar if they stop benefit payments?

I think it has to come down to what course you are wanting to do as to whether or not you can get funded for it so we don't end up paying for things like that sunday golf degree that cam up a few years back.
Also make sure it is performance based so if the student is just thick and can't pass, then the funds aren't there.

I have no problem paying for training or loaning out the money to do so but it has to be reasonable and at the moment it isn't.

At Auckland uni, if you fail a core class, you need to repeat it pretty simple really, and this is also tied in to what was the student loan agreement. Something like, pass half your classes or you dont qualify for assistance any more.
I could care less about the whinging communication majors, but when a degree in medicine is a minimum of 7 years, law is 5. I think limiting allowance to 4 years isn't really the right thing to do. Especially as the work load really ramps up toward the end of a degree, getting a job is all well and good, but when people are struggling to find work any way, how does that pan out for a un qualified student?

Increasing the rate from 10 to 12% doesn't really bother me.

[scott411]

At Auckland uni, if you fail a core class, you need to repeat it pretty simple really, and this is also tied in to what was the student loan agreement. Something like, pass half your classes or you dont qualify for assistance any more.
I could care less about the whinging communication majors, but when a degree in medicine is a minimum of 7 years, law is 5. I think limiting allowance to 4 years isn't really the right thing to do. Especially as the work load really ramps up toward the end of a degree, getting a job is all well and good, but when people are struggling to find work any way, how does that pan out for a un qualified student?

Increasing the rate from 10 to 12% doesn't really bother me.

I agree with you on that bit Dale, I think there should be a few exceptions to the 4 year rule for Medicine, i dont really know about law those, i have never heard of anyone complaining about not being able to fin da lawyer,

their are professional students that live off this and need to get in the real world, you can not choose to be not in the workforce for ever,

I dont think the students have a bad deal as it is, so next time throw some rocks at those guys in the front row, or maybe just some gas gas parts that have fallen off you ones ;)

[BoristheBiter]

At Auckland uni, if you fail a core class, you need to repeat it pretty simple really, and this is also tied in to what was the student loan agreement. Something like, pass half your classes or you dont qualify for assistance any more.
I could care less about the whinging communication majors, but when a degree in medicine is a minimum of 7 years, law is 5. I think limiting allowance to 4 years isn't really the right thing to do. Especially as the work load really ramps up toward the end of a degree, getting a job is all well and good, but when people are struggling to find work any way, how does that pan out for a un qualified student?

Increasing the rate from 10 to 12% doesn't really bother me.

can't disagree really.
If it came down to it would you become a doctor if the government paid it fully but then after you had qualified you were bonded for 10years to work in a NZ hospital?

If not then you pay your own way. I couldn't see it being fairer than that, after all how much do doctors make a year?

[noobi]

can't disagree really.
If it came down to it would you become a doctor if the government paid it fully but then after you had qualified you were bonded for 10years to work in a NZ hospital?

If not then you pay your own way. I couldn't see it being fairer than that, after all how much do doctors make a year?

Having friends who are doing medicine, the work load is enormous, I find it difficult enough juggling engineering with little amounts of part time work. So if there was a scheme in place for people from lower income families to 'tie' themselves to working in this country in exchange for a 'free lunch',like you say, then I think that would provide better opportunities for those who need it. Obviously it should only apply to certain types of tertiary education, as there is no shortage of PhD medieval literature graduates.

From my point of view, knowing how much better the engineering opportunities are in other countries, I probably wouldn't want to tie myself into such a scheme unless that was the last resort. Which is what the allowance scheme is supposed be, not a free ride, but a last resort for those who need it.

Scott, I can get kawasaki parts cheaper you know :rolleyes:

[Asher]

At Auckland uni, if you fail a core class, you need to repeat it pretty simple really, and this is also tied in to what was the student loan agreement. Something like, pass half your classes or you dont qualify for assistance any more.
I could care less about the whinging communication majors, but when a degree in medicine is a minimum of 7 years, law is 5. I think limiting allowance to 4 years isn't really the right thing to do. Especially as the work load really ramps up toward the end of a degree, getting a job is all well and good, but when people are struggling to find work any way, how does that pan out for a un qualified student?

On the student loan form it asks you if you past more than X number of papers during the last semester, if you havent they wont approve you.
They also only entitle you to a certain number of weeks worth of student loans

[BoristheBiter]

Having friends who are doing medicine, the work load is enormous, I find it difficult enough juggling engineering with little amounts of part time work. So if there was a scheme in place for people from lower income families to 'tie' themselves to working in this country in exchange for a 'free lunch',like you say, then I think that would provide better opportunities for those who need it. Obviously it should only apply to certain types of tertiary education, as there is no shortage of PhD medieval literature graduates.

From my point of view, knowing how much better the engineering opportunities are in other countries, I probably wouldn't want to tie myself into such a scheme unless that was the last resort. Which is what the allowance scheme is supposed be, not a free ride, but a last resort for those who need it.



I wouldn't have minded being tied into a NZ company, or government, if it meant that I didn't have to work and could study full time.
I hear what you are saying in regards to overseas as when I went back to Engineering while in the UK I had my pick of jobs, all because of my NZ qualification.

Not all of them paid well.

[porky]

In round figures 80% of the entire education budget per year is funnelled into the tertiary sector.....so that leaves 20% for the primary, int and secondary schools

Given that the tertiary sector represents only 10% of those being educated.......i can see what the Govt is trying to cut back on


Pity that this huge pool of cash is being directed towards quals that only have a "learn to learn " value as apposed to "other quals" that form a significant contribution to a prof career and those bitching the most seem to fall into the first catagory.
Secondly we seem to train more than we need and a large number of those leaving these shores are because we dont have sufficient grad placements..... a critical next step for those to gain their proffessional component of their training. In addition to this, those that do bugger off have cost the tax payer more than they have individually contributed towards their education......what they owe in student loans is peanuts in comparison to what the rest of NZ has allready invested in them.
Yup locking into a return of service in lieu of paying back a huge debt is an awesome concept......but as most govt depts are run by absolute morons.....many who have emigrated here....such a scheme would probably cost the tax payer squillions of dollars implemententing and go tits up before any student had completed the ROS ..... but yes i would have happily signed up for such a programme if it existed.

[bogan]

I agree with you on that bit Dale, I think there should be a few exceptions to the 4 year rule for Medicine, i dont really know about law those, i have never heard of anyone complaining about not being able to fin da lawyer,

their are professional students that live off this and need to get in the real world, you can not choose to be not in the workforce for ever,

I dont think the students have a bad deal as it is, so next time throw some rocks at those guys in the front row, or maybe just some gas gas parts that have fallen off you ones ;)

They do, and they are called recognised long courses. http://www.tec.govt.nz/Funding/Student-funding-/Long-Programmes/Recognised-Long-Programmes/ Medicine looks like it gets an extra 50-100 weeks.

[mashman]

In a confused way they have a point and I have some sympathy for their view of their apparent predicament!

They (the students) have been used and exploited by unscrupulous politicians with no other interest except their own political survival.

I don't blame them for falling for that shit but that's as far as my sympathies go!

The only thing you get for nothing in this world ... is nothing!

Anything you get for free means someone else is going to have to pay for it!

Interest free loans for education means taxpayers are supporting/subsidising these loans and IMHO they should have a time limit on them.

Unfortunately unrealistic expectations have been built in for short term returns like buying the student vote and the student is the victim!

Now as the political and "orthodox" financial noose tightens the politicians cant sustain the bribe, they call the debt in and the result is chaos!

The politicians benefit from the chaos by blaming the "greedy" students because this draws the attention away from themselves the creators of the problem! :rolleyes:

The media will act in accordance and allow the students to be exposed as greedy on TV and in the papers just as is happening right now!

The electorate will become polarised by this, "A" and "B" will be at war for the benefit of "C" where "C" is the collective "parliament" of the day!

It's the oldest political ploy in the book, they are all part of it and they and the banks are the only ones that will ultimately benefit from it!

The students are simply pawns in the game but right or wrong "they" and the "taxpayers" will carry the scars of this folly forever! :mad:

It doesn't have to be like this but it will stay this way until the "electorate as a whole" wakes up and changes the financial system from "social debt" to "Social Credit".

Education (among other essential public services) will then be free and affordable again based upon gross national product. (GNP)

I.E. production of goods and services the real wealth of the nation, rather than borrowing intrest bearing fiat money based on nothing from private banks! (social debt)

It is the man made and controlled "Social Debt" system that is currently fucking the world and only man can change that by changing it to "Social Credit" system to reverse the mounting debt cycle.

Change the question from "are the students just winging"? to ... "why are the students winging"? and ask "who benefits from it"? :shifty:

Who paid for free education when education was free? Because it really wasn't free was it? Could it have been, erm, no hang on, wait a minute that can't be right, was it the tax payers that paid for free education when education was free? Oh how I lolly... I guess we have to create debt from somewhere other than thin air.

[Robert Taylor]

Who paid for free education when education was free? Because it really wasn't free was it? Could it have been, erm, no hang on, wait a minute that can't be right, was it the tax payers that paid for free education when education was free? Oh how I lolly... I guess we have to create debt from somewhere other than thin air.

It does seem that to some degree we are tarred with the same brush as the Greeks. The reality is that like most Governments ( for myriad reasons ) we are up to our eyeballs in debt. THERE IS NO MONEY. Everyone has to tighten their belts, including students. Much of where I have got to has been through sheer hard work and no handouts, its a concept that a few more should try.

[mashman]

It does seem that to some degree we are tarred with the same brush as the Greeks. The reality is that like most Governments ( for myriad reasons ) we are up to our eyeballs in debt. THERE IS NO MONEY. Everyone has to tighten their belts, including students. Much of where I have got to has been through sheer hard work and no handouts, its a concept that a few more should try.

How long has it been since you were at Uni? (15 odd years ago) Me, I raised a kid, and helped support a g/f at Uni through part time work whilst doing my degree but I couldn't do that today. It costs too much money and it pisses me off that there will be people in a similar position i.e. that want to go to Uni but can't afford it because it is too expensive a thing to accomplish. Every basic "essential" has gone up in price, food, rent, books, travel, fees etc... I wouldn't mind if the $43 million being saved was going to do some good, but it isn't. Sure there's noise about putting the money back into the education system in order to raise the standards of the educator, but how do you accomplish that where every other govt has failed? I know where some of the money is going to go, but that shouldn't cost more than $4 million and whilst it COULD indicate the need for educator training, there are no noises as to how the educators will be brought up to speed so to speak. It's a false economy and will put more "stress" on to some teachers... the last thing I want to see are stressed teachers and a lack of teaching continuity. For me this policy offers no advantage to joe public. Limiting the support for 4 years rules out a HUGE portion of the population and drags us even further into an educational class system, benefiting the few.

If there's no money, then surely the sensible thing to do is to reverse the tax cuts that are obviously causing the country pain... but that's be back tracking on an election "promise" and the majority just aren't worthy of that "support" it would seem, even if it goes towards crippling the economy.

[steve_t]

So, what's this about again? Student complaining because student allowances are getting restricted to 4 years? Back in my day, student loans weren't even interest-free. I think it was about 8% interest that accumulated. What's wrong with these students getting loans instead of allowances? I guess the cost of living has gone up substantially. How much can you get via the student loan scheme these days?

[Brian d marge]

without going into it all again ,

in a nut shell , its an American form of economics which is pushed upon un by our partnership with IMF world bank etc , privatize state institutions .So when the new right got in back in the day , this is what they did , and to give them credit they have stuck to their guns ( ideals )

One thing I noticed when I returned to NZ for a break last month , were the amount of people with teeth missing , and bad dental care and ( anecdotally) the lack of people in the 25 to 35 age group but that was just my observations

IF you treat education as a benefit to society ( an educated society causes a whole heap less problems , health , crime etc ) then education should be subsidized ..

if you use the individualistic model , ( which the new right love to push , we are all islands and can only get somewhere by our own hard work ,,,, which is rubbish,, as we ALL had some sort of help ) then the individual should pay , and be able to pay when ( if ~) they get the high paying job ( slavery anyone?)

I was at the coal face when student loan came out , the then MP David Carter told me ( and I agree) that one should contribute towards the cost of ones education back then for engineering that worked out to 1250 a year plus book costs of 1 000 x 4

Then they added living costs .........


a 35k debt before you even start life ,,,yeah right

then we have those who recieved their education before the loans , and charging market rates, and those after who now #owe 35k # no dont get me wrong those , for example , who did an engineering degree worked friggen hard to get it , or were booksmart and just aced the exams . Time for a second job , no way ,,,not enough hours in the day to get the course work done , let alone work!

there were some school holidays where you could pick up some living money doing some form of dead end job , you couldnt save enough to make a dent in your living costs though,

Stephen

Scam to the max , lied to , cheated and saddled with a huge debt ,,,great way to start.

[noobi]

So, what's this about again? Student complaining because student allowances are getting restricted to 4 years? Back in my day, student loans weren't even interest-free. I think it was about 8% interest that accumulated. What's wrong with these students getting loans instead of allowances? I guess the cost of living has gone up substantially. How much can you get via the student loan scheme these days?

You can borrow up to $172/week in living costs if you dont qualify for allowance, ie your parents earn more than 90k combined.
If your parents combined earnings is less than 90k, then you can claim an allowance which at its max is around 220/week iirc.
There are other things that can affect your eligibility for the allowance, brothers and sisters which also study, living away from home, having a parent out of your life. You need to pay back the living costs, the allowance works like the dole. Also, both these schemes only pay out during the time your study, ~9 months of the year.
My loan is up to 17k atm, ill be lucky if its less than 40k by the time im finished.

[schrodingers cat]

The 'Education Industry' was a brilliant scam. Reduce unemployment by keeping people busy with basket weaving courses and give lots of lovely middle class people cushy jobs helping young people become over educated with unrealistic expectations of the own worth and value in the workplace.

Blood, dirt and shit people. Thats where the 'real' money is produced. The rest is just churn.

[Robert Taylor]

How long has it been since you were at Uni? (15 odd years ago) Me, I raised a kid, and helped support a g/f at Uni through part time work whilst doing my degree but I couldn't do that today. It costs too much money and it pisses me off that there will be people in a similar position i.e. that want to go to Uni but can't afford it because it is too expensive a thing to accomplish. Every basic "essential" has gone up in price, food, rent, books, travel, fees etc... I wouldn't mind if the $43 million being saved was going to do some good, but it isn't. Sure there's noise about putting the money back into the education system in order to raise the standards of the educator, but how do you accomplish that where every other govt has failed? I know where some of the money is going to go, but that shouldn't cost more than $4 million and whilst it COULD indicate the need for educator training, there are no noises as to how the educators will be brought up to speed so to speak. It's a false economy and will put more "stress" on to some teachers... the last thing I want to see are stressed teachers and a lack of teaching continuity. For me this policy offers no advantage to joe public. Limiting the support for 4 years rules out a HUGE portion of the population and drags us even further into an educational class system, benefiting the few.

If there's no money, then surely the sensible thing to do is to reverse the tax cuts that are obviously causing the country pain... but that's be back tracking on an election "promise" and the majority just aren't worthy of that "support" it would seem, even if it goes towards crippling the economy.

Yes indeed every Government has failed but that in part is because we have too many people conditioned to ''vote for a living''. We need less Government and less burden on the taxpayers. As for the teaching profession it would be somewhat easier to instil learning if there was a decent level of discipline in classrooms, which clearly there is not.

[Brian d marge]

The 'Education Industry' was a brilliant scam. Reduce unemployment by keeping people busy with basket weaving courses and give lots of lovely middle class people cushy jobs helping young people become over educated with unrealistic expectations of the own worth and value in the workplace.

Blood, dirt and shit people. Thats where the 'real' money is produced. The rest is just churn.

couldnt agree more , ( or you could bugger off like i did and make some real money in a job u enjoy ! )

Stephen

[scott411]

couldnt agree more , ( or you could bugger off like i did and make some real money in a job u enjoy ! )

Stephen

or you could stay here, live in a wicked country, not have to deal with loads of people in big cities, and make good money in a job you enjoy as well, and have access to some of the best road riding, and dirt riding the world has to offer for very little cost,

the grass is not always greener overseas, but i understand it is for some people,

back to the education sector, I think the Uni's are the least of our problems, the polytechs that pop up everywhere and do courses that get the most students, not the best results for the students, or the employers they are ment to be helping are a bigger issue,

[mashman]

Yes indeed every Government has failed but that in part is because we have too many people conditioned to ''vote for a living''. We need less Government and less burden on the taxpayers. As for the teaching profession it would be somewhat easier to instil learning if there was a decent level of discipline in classrooms, which clearly there is not.

What do you mean by people conditioned to ''vote for a living''? I doubt less govt, or more govt for that matter, is the answer to "our" financial woes. What have the tax breaks done for the country? Where is the investment that these tax breaks was supposed to encourage? Govt overseas debt has skyrocketed (trebled if the wiki figures from the reserve bank are to be believed). Sure we can blame Chch, crown bailouts, the recession etc... but we've cut services and nothing has changed. we've given tax breaks and nothing has changed. It looks as though we're going capex crazy in order to make it look as though the operational expenditure is under control, where really we're paying more for the same service privately (still no stimulated economy) and in some situations hiring people back to their jobs at higher contract rates. There's no sense in what they're doing given that we're all paying towards the good ship NZ. There's no vision, just more of what "worked" back in the 80's even though the world has moved on by nearly 30 years since. You would have thought after all of the years of boom and bust that we'd have hit a winning formula by now. Odd that these great economic and political minds haven't been able to manage it thus far. Meh.

Anyhoo, back to education... I agree that there is a certain level of trouble in the classroom, but that's nothing new really is it? There's certainly more fear and I fail to see how this is a problem where exclusion has always removed the problem from the classroom. We're not all straight laced buttoned up the front robots any more. Victorian dad has most definately left the building. Yet another failure to adapt an existing institution to our "new" way of living. Unfortunately the programmes for "wayward" kids are getting hit hard in regards to funding, throw in a liberal measure of fuck 'em and we're well on our way to brushing the problems under the carpet. Tis a shame that most refuse to see the woods for the trees. Bottom line. Budget constraint kills ALL innovation (that's social, societal, institutional, technological etc...).

[Jantar]

Reach into your pocket and stump up 35k then tell yourself that the job you will get you could pay it back.


and if you believe that all will be well

Stephen
I'm returning to Uni after a break of 40 years and its going to cost almost exactly 35K to complete my PhD, and no student allowance or student loan available at my age. I will finish in the same year that I aim to retire so no job will ever pay me back. But it will be worth it. :clap:

[Winston001]

.... keeping people busy with basket weaving courses and give lots of lovely middle class people cushy jobs helping young people become over educated with unrealistic expectations of the own worth and value in the workplace.

Blood, dirt and shit people. Thats where the 'real' money is produced. The rest is just churn.


.....I think the Uni's are the least of our problems, the polytechs that pop up everywhere and do courses that get the most students, not the best results for the students, or the employers they are ment to be helping are a bigger issue,

You both touch upon a live issue: currently there are polytechs offering competing courses in very narrow employment fields. Drama and video production are two among many which come to mind. Nothing wrong with learning those but the duplication across multiple institutions creates waste and mediocrity. Specialised subjects need to be concentrated in a couple of places.

[Berries]

or you could bugger off like i did and make some real money in a job u enjoy !
Horses for courses. I buggered off and ended up in NZ. Wouldn't change a thing.

[Brian d marge]

I'm returning to Uni after a break of 40 years and its going to cost almost exactly 35K to complete my PhD, and no student allowance or student loan available at my age. I will finish in the same year that I aim to retire so no job will ever pay me back. But it will be worth it. :clap:


question is are you going to pay it back? many many OAP dont and good on em I say !

Dead is dead ..no puritanical , middle class views , just dead . 35k ,,,,Mr Key you can whistle IMHO

Stephen

[Robert Taylor]

What do you mean by people conditioned to ''vote for a living''? I doubt less govt, or more govt for that matter, is the answer to "our" financial woes. What have the tax breaks done for the country? Where is the investment that these tax breaks was supposed to encourage? Govt overseas debt has skyrocketed (trebled if the wiki figures from the reserve bank are to be believed). Sure we can blame Chch, crown bailouts, the recession etc... but we've cut services and nothing has changed. we've given tax breaks and nothing has changed. It looks as though we're going capex crazy in order to make it look as though the operational expenditure is under control, where really we're paying more for the same service privately (still no stimulated economy) and in some situations hiring people back to their jobs at higher contract rates. There's no sense in what they're doing given that we're all paying towards the good ship NZ. There's no vision, just more of what "worked" back in the 80's even though the world has moved on by nearly 30 years since. You would have thought after all of the years of boom and bust that we'd have hit a winning formula by now. Odd that these great economic and political minds haven't been able to manage it thus far. Meh.

Anyhoo, back to education... I agree that there is a certain level of trouble in the classroom, but that's nothing new really is it? There's certainly more fear and I fail to see how this is a problem where exclusion has always removed the problem from the classroom. We're not all straight laced buttoned up the front robots any more. Victorian dad has most definately left the building. Yet another failure to adapt an existing institution to our "new" way of living. Unfortunately the programmes for "wayward" kids are getting hit hard in regards to funding, throw in a liberal measure of fuck 'em and we're well on our way to brushing the problems under the carpet. Tis a shame that most refuse to see the woods for the trees. Bottom line. Budget constraint kills ALL innovation (that's social, societal, institutional, technological etc...).

The French have just voted for more Government, just watch that country go down the gurgler as well.
Governments everywhere are struggling with crippling debt because of many years of overspending and state handouts. Yes you state many other factors that are true enough but when you are digging a hole that is getting you into debt ( overspending ) you dont keep digging. Look at what that idiot Gordon Brown did to help cripple the UK.
The state in fact does not owe everyone a living, at ALL levels of society and wealth.

[scott411]

You both touch upon a live issue: currently there are polytechs offering competing courses in very narrow employment fields. Drama and video production are two among many which come to mind. Nothing wrong with learning those but the duplication across multiple institutions creates waste and mediocrity. Specialised subjects need to be concentrated in a couple of places.

and i beleive for state funding they should offer some outcomes, I know there were alot of people that put dive masters courses, and helicopter/aircraft commercial liceince study on student loans (as an example of many courses), yet with the number of students their were, there was no way there would ever be enough jobs in the areas for all of them

[Brian d marge]

The French have just voted for more Government, just watch that country go down the gurgler as well.
Governments everywhere are struggling with crippling debt because of many years of overspending and state handouts. Yes you state many other factors that are true enough but when you are digging a hole that is getting you into debt ( overspending ) you dont keep digging. Look at what that idiot Gordon Brown did to help cripple the UK.
The state in fact does not owe everyone a living, at ALL levels of society and wealth.
the biggest component of the "handout" is to the oldies , the pension from memory its nearly HALF of the welfare handout ...cuts anyone??

Stephen

[BoristheBiter]

the biggest component of the "handout" is to the oldies , the pension from memory its nearly HALF of the welfare handout ...cuts anyone??

Stephen

The biggest component is non workers under 65.

[Brian d marge]

The biggest component is non workers under 65.

nice try


Stephen

[BoristheBiter]

nice try


Stephen

but it's true.

[Ender EnZed]

Not on any pie graph I've ever seen.

[Oscar]

What do you mean by people conditioned to ''vote for a living''?

Or people like you who don't bother voting and then have the arrogance to tell the rest of us what to do?

[Swoop]

Nothing wrong with learning those but the duplication across multiple institutions creates waste and mediocrity.
The TROQ review is all about reducing that.

[BoristheBiter]

Not on any pie graph I've ever seen.

You guys are no fun today.

One thing i did notice was that as of 2004 more were on the DPB than the unemployment.

[mashman]

The French have just voted for more Government, just watch that country go down the gurgler as well.
Governments everywhere are struggling with crippling debt because of many years of overspending and state handouts. Yes you state many other factors that are true enough but when you are digging a hole that is getting you into debt ( overspending ) you dont keep digging. Look at what that idiot Gordon Brown did to help cripple the UK.
The state in fact does not owe everyone a living, at ALL levels of society and wealth.

I fail to see why the French will head down the gurgler as we move into another boom... even with a socialist govt at the helm :bleh:.
Governments everywhere are struggling with crippling debt because they're BAU governments, no more, no less and as such that includes state handouts. What's the alternative to state handouts? other than homelessness, poverty, hunger and death? Or is that ok? As I've said before and will say again, the country requires a percentage of its population to be unemployed in order to help keep inflation in check and by default yours and my money worth what it's worth (which is less and less these days). Working harder does not add more money to my salary and is not a "remedy" for increasing my bottom line (unless my employer decides to value my contribution, which is definitely not a given). May I suggest that you write to JK and ask him to stop digging such great holes then... much bigger under the current govt than at any time in NZ's history I believe.
As or Brown, he committed the cardinal sin and wanted to further regulate the banks and as it turned out they didn't like the idea much and the country suffered. I'm not saying that was his only "failure", but it really really didn't help matters. As you mention no country is immune, so where is the money going?
The state does owe people a living, in some form or other, especially where there is no work for them or indeed they have worked their entire lives and need to be looked after (shame the pension/super goes less far each year)... after all there's a small number of people who refuse to work (I get closer and closer to wanting to join them by the day) and that's fine by me if a percentage of the country are required to be unemployed (inflation). So why gripe about them when there's nothing that can be done about that? As far as the other end of the scale goes, close every tax loophole that is available (incentive my arse). There are plenty and those in govt no doubt know exactly what they are.

[mashman]

Or people like you who don't bother voting and then have the arrogance to tell the rest of us what to do?

Your loss of memory and lack of comprehension skills still serving you well I see.

[BoristheBiter]

Your loss of memory and lack of comprehension skills still serving you well I see.

but you don't vote and tell us how it should be done so whats wrong with his statement?

[mashman]

but you don't vote and tell us how it should be done so whats wrong with his statement?

I make a "principled" decision not to vote, as I have stated many a time. I do not tell the rest of you what to do, neither do I tell you how it should be done.

[BoristheBiter]

I make a "principled" decision not to vote, as I have stated many a time. I do not tell the rest of you what to do, neither do I tell you how it should be done.

What have you been smoking today or have just not hit the go switch:killingme

So his comment "you don't vote " is correct.

You tell us how you would do it so therefore you "tell the rest of us what to do"

Therefore his comment is correct.

[steve_t]

I make a "principled" decision not to vote, as I have stated many a time. I do not tell the rest of you what to do, neither do I tell you how it should be done.

What's "principled" about not participating in the democratic process? Can of worms?

[oldrider]

the biggest component of the "handout" is to the oldies , the pension from memory its nearly HALF of the welfare handout ...cuts anyone??

Stephen

From the age of 15 I thought I was investing in my current (retired) situation through my "contribution" to the countries taxation system for over 40 years!

I would gladly suffer a reduction in my pension to support the education of our youth, if I could be sure that that is where it would actually go to!

IMHO investment in our youth (our future) is a higher return on investment than is the investment in our elderly (the past) if there needed to be a choice made!

On the other hand do any of you believe that the current situation has arisen as a result of "prudent" management of our countries financial resources?

As you can quite clearly see, if there needs to be choice made to correct the anomaly, it is clearly a choice to change the people and systems that have caused it!

Like tidying your garage, it is no use shifting the shit from side to side and declaring a good job well done!

You have to actually "throw the shit out" and put only the stuff that "works for you" in the place that the shit used to occupy!

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome is just plain pure fucking stupidity! :rolleyes:

"Social debt" (current system) does not deliver anything except stifling and crippling debt, the world is basking in it!

"Social Credit" (the only current alternative on offer) will reverse the cost-debt spiral cycle and set us on a path of recovery!

It's your choice of course! :mellow:

[scott411]

i agree that the pension age needs to be raised, and it should have been 3 years ago to be 67 now, and in the next 10 years it should be around 70ish,

i doubt by the time i get there it will even be around,

[mashman]

What's "principled" about not participating in the democratic process? Can of worms?

Fucked if I know, I just wanna argue :shifty: or it could be that none of the current party's deserve my vote as none of them are aligned with how I'd like to see the country run. I won't just use it because I have it, unlike the majority it would seem. Unlike those idiots that voted the Nats in a) because they wanted Labour out, b) even though they don't want asset sales, c) because there's no-one else to vote for, so may as well vote similarly to my nearest and dearest because they must know what they're voting for... :killingme :facepalm:

[Oscar]

Your loss of memory and lack of comprehension skills still serving you well I see.

You said you didn't vote.
Shall I find the post that proves you to be a liar as well as an idiot?

[mashman]

You said you didn't vote.
Shall I find the post that proves you to be a liar as well as an idiot?

I also gave a reason for it other than not bothering to.
No, please don't, I don't think I could bare it. My mental state, as you know, is so fragile that it could push me over the hedge. Although it would be good grounds for my application as a political candidate.

[Oscar]

I also gave a reason for it other than not bothering to.
No, please don't, I don't think I could bare it. My mental state, as you know, is so fragile that it could push me over the hedge. Although it would be good grounds for my application as a political candidate.

If you can't be bothered to vote, why should anyone listen to you?

[steve_t]

I also gave a reason for it other than not bothering to.
No, please don't, I don't think I could bare it. My mental state, as you know, is so fragile that it could push me over the hedge. Although it would be good grounds for my application as a political candidate.

Push you over the hedge? :clap:

[mashman]

If you can't be bothered to vote, why should anyone listen to you?

I can be bothered, I choose not to. I'm also not expecting anyone to listen to me... some things people just have to work out for themselves.

[mashman]

Push you over the hedge? :clap:

Sorry, that probably shoulda been bush me over the hedge.