A unique problem with SI Buckets

[Yow Ling]

Up Norf where they run on Kart tracks, buckets get the whole track for the whole day, which allows them the luxury of being to run A,B, C grades. Down here its a bit different, we run as a single class slotted in amongst superbikes classics and whatever, so we dont get to seperate the really fast guys from the really slow, sometimes the closing speeds are very high.

With the BOB coming up soon we will have the same problem real fast guys and guys riding buckets that have been dragged out of the 80's and represent a danger to themselves and others when combined with a lack of experience.

Last weekend a new (old) guy was riding his second race meeting on his new to him bucket, a much faster rider passed him in the last corner on the B track, he got spooked sat up and crashed into the passing rider, went to hospital with a punctured lung and broken ribs.

Can we work out a way to get them introduced to racing by making newbies run in MCI development class untill they have some competence then join into the buckets. For some reason people think buckets is soft, I think its really tough and fairly hostile , which is what makes bucket s great, but we need to ease new people with no experience into the class, when Streetstock guys come over they well sussed and usually show the old guys the way round

Any one have an opinion on this ?

[Kickaha]

For some reason people think buckets is soft, I think its really tough and fairly hostile ,

Totally agree, it is hard competitive racing and not ideal for a novice (at least it was back in my day)

THE MCI idea is a good one, perhaps a certain number of meetings before being allowed to do BOB as well and the novice jacket worked quite well last time round

Maybe a "mentor" program for new riders

[Kendog]

We actually have a similar problem in Wellington, because the monthly racing is with the karts so we only get two classes.

While that does mean the fast guys race A grade, B grade has become a large group and is very cut throat. When new (slower) riders join, we have had problems. Made worse by the faster B grade riders not necessarily having the common sense or skill to pass sensibly.

[Grumph]

Firstly, the problem of wide speed and experience differential is not unique to buckets - National classes are having to deal with it as is Clubmans class. Unfortunately there is no one answer which suits all.

As an (ex)organiser I can assure you that a lot of thought has gone in - but very little answer has come out..
When Peter Jones was doing the training sessions we were getting some very well prepared young riders coming through - almost too well prepared...put them on anything and they were fast.

What I'd suggest is that the Bucket Club start briefing novices themselves...grab them after riders briefing and sort out any problems they have and if necessary give them a mentor for the day.
As regards slow older machinery...well I'm aware a number of you actively assist with problem bikes...surely this can be sorted with assistance from within the club. Pointing them at affordable, better machinery etc...

If as looks likely the BoB is a whole day event at Levels you will of course have the opportunity to run as many classes as you like.
Edit - not happening I see. At one point it was an option....

[Dutchee]

Auckland is the only place (at the moment) with the luxury of having the track to ourselves. We usually run F4, B grade and F5, but this past weekend ran a C grade for F4.

Some of those riding in C grade still crossed over to B grade, a couple of us didn't. I was riding my 100 in F5, and 150 in C (no speed difference, I'm slow whatever I ride).

I've pretty much given up on B grade, as it's newbies with little/no experience, and I find it terrifying. I don't trust the riders in front, so tend to back off to avoid them, and thereby stay slow (Captain Slow has nothing on me). The ones who then start getting experienced & faster, move up to F4 and I end up with more newbies. Nothing wrong with that (it's a good thing), but blardy hell, I'm over being captain snail and can't get past it.

I had one guy leaning on me in a practice session, looked over to see who it was (whether I needed to freak out or not) and spotted it was someone who did know what he's doing, so laughed and rode it out till he'd finally passed cleanly).

I do think if you're riding a class, stick with that for the day, unless you're changing bikes. We've had others who've heard there's a C grade running for the day (at another track) and decided that meant they could now have 3 riders using the bike. Only problem was they were part of the reason for running a C grade, so that they'd not be in F4 (being too slow for the class and thereby endangering everyone).

Fluoro vests can help, as even if the person is fast, they don't really know what they're doing, and I know when they're coming through, to give them a wide berth (I've generally spotted that they're eratic way before it's a problem, just with practice & such). Others take to it like a duck to water and aren't a problem.

All of us want to have fun, and I just don't really think there's a right answer around yet.

[Henk]

Not that unique a problem, we suffer from it up here as well, in fact we possibly have it worse than you given the fact that we run on much shorter tracks.
We had 45 people turn up on Sunday, fastest lap times were in the low 30s slowest around 47 seconds. The only solution we have come up with is to split into grades by lap times and that isn't ideal. Yesterday was the first time we ran a C grade and usually we can have the pointy end of the B grade in the 34s with complete novices at the back. The speed difference is if anything exaggerated on short narrow kart track compared to a full circuit and it isn't the only problem as the newer riders can have a tendency to sit up when someone dives underneath them seemingly out of nowhere and if they are dicing there is likely someone coming round the outside as well.
One solution we are considering is three grades with reasonably rigidly enforced cut off times, this is much easier to manage now that we have a transponder system up and running.
Will it be a silver bullet? Probably not but we have to try something to keep the B grade safe and have somewhere that the slower riders can feel comfortable without having to deal with being repeatedly lapped by riders on A grade equipment, riding with A grade aggression but still to new to the sport to have developed confidence and race raft. I know I sat up the first time I got lapped in A grade and I'd been racing buckets for a year or so at that stage.
Let us know what you end up doing and how it works.

[richban]

Its a scary deal for sure. Last BOB there were a few guys with vests out and about and I must say they were briefed well and didn't sit up or freak out at all that I noticed.

Like Grumph mentioned, Its a problem everywhere. Pre 65 car racing has seen some major incidence because of speed difference's. V8 mustangs cutting Hilman Ipm's in half.

I like the idea of on track mentors. Its the quickest way to get someone up to speed. Standing on the side line and saying hey hold your line and she will be right might not work. If you have a faster rider showing them the way it might fast track peoples confidence. Maybe the more experienced riders take it in turn to give up a race or practice to help out the new guys and girls. The stakes are higher in the south for sure with massive speed differences all the time. Same problem in the GP. Is it time to look at minimum qualifying times for the 2 big events where people are really pushing for results. Maybe a wider margin. Like taking the lap time from 12th on the grid and apply the normal rules whatever that percentage is.

My 3 Cents. Happy to help here in Wellington.

[Muzzab]

It's certainly a tough question. I only started racing a couple of years ago and well remember being startled by the fast guys as they came roaring passed. I manage not to be lapped in the shorter races now, most of the time. But you have to start somewhere and for many just tinkering with bikes, taking part and being there is what it is about. It's still unsettling to see someone carted off in the ambo though.

[F5 Dave]

Not that unique a problem, we suffer from it up here as well, in fact we possibly have it worse than you given the fact that we run on much shorter tracks.
. . ..
No actually it is worse on bigger tracks. You are more likely to have a smack on a kart track, but the problem with the longer tracks & slow bikes is you can be drafting in a bunch on the straight & the lead rider pulls out around a slow ride, lets say he's on a Fck'd YB100 with a speed of 60k tops. You're pulling 140 by then. Then a bike appears in front of you.

Its not funny.

I'm afraid they should have a cut off time for safety sake. Generous one for sure, but we were lapping some of those guys every few laps.

[Bert]

No actually it is worse on bigger tracks. You are more likely to have a smack on a kart track, but the problem with the longer tracks & slow bikes is you can be drafting in a bunch on the straight & the lead rider pulls out around a slow ride, lets say he's on a Fck'd YB100 with a speed of 60k tops. You're pulling 140 by then. Then a bike appears in front of you.

Its not funny.

I'm afraid they should have a cut off time for safety sake. Generous one for sure, but we were lapping some of those guys every few laps.

having been a Mobile chicane myself; i tending to agree with the comments about cut off times.... or maybe bringing back the B-grade GP as well ????
I'm sure a few of us would happily put a trophy up for grabs; imagine that; 60-70 buckets turning up for an event... :headbang:

[speedpro]

I saw the thread title and thought - carb icing.

[Shorty_925]

lets say he's on a Fck'd YB100 with a speed of 60k tops.

YB100's are great, and to top out at 60K, it must be pretty shit! Used to have one for going to and form school. Ran it dry of pre-mix a few times, but it kept on ticking.
Had a quick lie-down up sweatcacres, too much lean angle, not enough clearance from exhuast...

[TZ350]

A unique problem with SI Buckets

Any one have an opinion on this ?


I saw the thread title and thought - carb icing.

LOL ... :laugh: .........

[Buddha#81]

Yup been giving this some thought before this thread.......The best solution for newcomers to gain a little track experiance is to have a trianing class at lunchtime (MCI, Cams and Bears all have a lunch break). Run by the more experianced guys paired up with a decent debrief after. Being that they could ride for free at the lunchbreak you would/could see more people wanting to give it a go without the presure of heading out to the track in race conditions. Say three of these before goin to the track.

Another thing is have a brainstorm session and come up with a list of do's and donts......we have a good source of rules, bike prep but not what to expect when you actually get there!

Oster where are you.......you been there (here) and done it!

[Voltaire]

My Son and I go to Mt Welly from time to time, he prefers the Saturday 'slow' practice session.....he's getting used to bikes coming from all angles.... I have only done two race days and i just hang ( actually that's all I can manage) at the back of b grade .... the first 3 or 4 lap me....blue flag has made that easier.
It was pretty busy there on the weekend with 40+ bikes, and its only a 500 meter track.
Gives new meaning to 'bucket list"... :lol:
I have started doing a bit of classic racing this year.......I find that easier.:baby: but the bucket crowd are great.:2thumbsup

[F5 Dave]

I think one of the things is that it is too hard to say, 'No you can't race that old bucket' to some chap who's turned up. but if it can't do, say 100kph on a long cct then it shouldn't be allowed out. A std RG50 will do 100, I had no problem with the 50s. But the knackered 100s/125s that can't do that, well sorry, someone will get hurt with a big closing speed.

Crashes can & will happen in the corners, heck I clipped a guy a couple of years back at the BOB on the sweeper onto the straight on my 50. But it was a racing incident as I was passing.

An impact at speed is another kettle of fish & just not pretty. I think its the straights that are the real danger.

[gav]

Some good ideas here, but not too sure the MCI development class would be suitable, as this class runs 150SS and 250 Prolites and the fast guys and girls run just as fast as the fastest buckets. The BoB problems wouldnt have been such an issue when the club ran there own meeting as couldve run a B grade race but with the current president deciding it is "better?" to run as part of a CAMS meet we will not have the luxury of having extra classes available. Ideally you'd think if you were that slow on a YB you'd realise maybe it was time to get an FXR? But maybe the cost or shortage of them doesnt make this too easy? Certainly a vest should be a requirement for first 3 race meets maybe?

[ellipsis]

Some good ideas here, but not too sure the MCI development class would be suitable, as this class runs 150SS and 250 Prolites and the fast guys and girls run just as fast as the fastest buckets. The BoB problems wouldnt have been such an issue when the club ran there own meeting as couldve run a B grade race but with the current president deciding it is "better?" to run as part of a CAMS meet we will not have the luxury of having extra classes available. Ideally you'd think if you were that slow on a YB you'd realise maybe it was time to get an FXR? But maybe the cost or shortage of them doesnt make this too easy? Certainly a vest should be a requirement for first 3 race meets maybe?

...hey Gav...I cant actually see it being a problem running an F4 B grade on the day, if it's necessary,(you dont mean a B grade BOB do you), I would have to clear it with the CAMS committee but I can see the safety issues of the speed differentials as being important enough at the BOB that it would be wise to do so. Can you put a number on how many riders or bikes would qualify for this class. I dont think we could sustain a B grade at other club days...our club has a vested interest in the safety of all riders at our events but I think the BMRC has to come up with a solution to training newer bucket riders...the toungue in cheek or is it serious, call for all F4 riders to get up to speed by owning an FXR or somesuch rocket is not the answer...it's buckets after all, isn't it?...anyway we will consider solutions, but you lot will have to come up with them...and they have to be workable...

[jasonu]

I don't think there should be a B Grade BOB or B Grade GP or B Grade anything else that has some sort of title attached to it. Run B Grade as a support class (with less laps than the main Bucket Title event) at these meetings for sure. F4 is the premier class and the 'lesser' class riders should have an incentive to improve enough to compete with the fast guys for the prizes.
Absolutely have a cut off time and CONSISTANTLY enforce it. Daves suggestion re the possible outlawing the total shit heaps should be looked at also, maybe innitially at the big meetings like the GP and BOB and later at the regular events if need be. Maybe tougher scrutineering specifically aimed at the real clunkers might weed out some of the problemsom bikes too. That might push the owners of these machines into at least improving their machine enough to be able to enter and that could in turn improve their lap times to the point where they are no longer a concern.
Having said all that (to a point) care must be taken not to discourage those wanting to have a go or those on a very tight budget. The line between having a bit of fun but doing it safety must be found. A trip to horsepiddle in the meat wagon for a broken collarbone because someone who didn't know better panicked aint fun.
Just my thoughts for what they are worth.

[dangerous]

Up Norf where they run on Kart tracks, buckets get the whole track for the whole day, which allows them the luxury of being to run A,B, C grades. Down here its a bit different, we run as a single class slotted in amongst superbikes classics and whatever, so we dont get to seperate the really fast guys from the really slow, sometimes the closing speeds are very high.

With the BOB coming up soon we will have the same problem real fast guys and guys riding buckets that have been dragged out of the 80's and represent a danger to themselves and others when combined with a lack of experience.

Last weekend a new (old) guy was riding his second race meeting on his new to him bucket, a much faster rider passed him in the last corner on the B track, he got spooked sat up and crashed into the passing rider, went to hospital with a punctured lung and broken ribs.

Can we work out a way to get them introduced to racing by making newbies run in MCI development class untill they have some competence then join into the buckets. For some reason people think buckets is soft, I think its really tough and fairly hostile , which is what makes bucket s great, but we need to ease new people with no experience into the class, when Streetstock guys come over they well sussed and usually show the old guys the way round

Any one have an opinion on this ?

Seems to me its a problem brought on by your selves (also partly progresion as that has to happen) never used to be an issue so bad whan I was racing (was towards the end)

I was yaking to Don yesterday and he was saying in NT when he was there rules were somewhat different for buckets eg a $400 limit.
Racing was fun to win not a fight to win... buckets are a full on class now I dear say the new old guy was thinking a bucket was just that not a modified sport bike of moderen tech.
What can you do about it... IMO SFA you evolved it you now see the not so good results from that.

[Grumph]

Okay - I'll spell it out. What Neil is saying a couple of posts back is that CAMS will go along with what the Bucket club comes up with.

Now on Ruapuna B track there is no way of using transponders...the BEARS have tried to get the car club to install a timing loop for the b track but in the end I understand the car club wouldn't finance it, it was going to be the bike club's cost.

So given this limitation the Bucket club commitee is going to have to be big boys and take an arbitrary stand on who and what starts the BoB....which may not be popular.

On the day I'd asssume there will be prelim races prior to the BoB....make them qualifiers. Lets see the Bucket club committee come up with an acceptable criteria for a start in the main race.

[Yow Ling]

Seems to me its a problem brought on by your selves (also partly progresion as that has to happen) never used to be an issue so bad whan I was racing (was towards the end)

I was yaking to Don yesterday and he was saying in NT when he was there rules were somewhat different for buckets eg a $400 limit.
Racing was fun to win not a fight to win... buckets are a full on class now I dear say the new old guy was thinking a bucket was just that not a modified sport bike of moderen tech.
What can you do about it... IMO SFA you evolved it you now see the not so good results from that.

Your memory is a bit selective here D, remember the Nipper crash, thats the kind of thing we are talking about. It isnt about how much money we invest in the class overall, Aussie buckets are just as if not more spendy than ours.

FXRs and CBRs are 10 years old , not exactly modern tech, you are acting and sounding like a Luddite when you want to go back in time to when Bucket racing was piles of old junk with a few rockets sprinkled in

[Kickaha]

Racing was fun to win not a fight to win... buckets are a full on class now
Buckets has always been a fight to win and a full on class, I've always had fun regardless of how the class has evolved

[bucketracer]

Have the BOB as an invitation only race.....


I don't think there should be a B Grade BOB or B Grade GP or B Grade anything else that has some sort of title attached to it. Run B Grade as a support class (with less laps than the main Bucket Title event) at these meetings for sure. F4 is the premier class and the 'lesser' class riders should have an incentive to improve enough to compete with the fast guys for the prizes.

At Mt Welly there has been a cut off for the 2-Hour for as long as I remember, with entry to the race by invitation only.

Anyone who wanted to, could hold their hand up but the race organizer would have a chat with a newbee or anyone of doubtful ability or lap times.

It was all done in a friendly way, generally those that shouldn't go out recognized it.

I don't remember anyone throwing their toys out of the cot. Maybe that's because JC was hard but fair and dose not tolerate bad behavior.


Having said all that (to a point) care must be taken not to discourage those wanting to have a go or those on a very tight budget.

At Mt Welly, once a year there is two invitation races, the 2-Hour and the Mt Wellington Cup, The Mt Welly Cup is for those machines or riders who don't make the cut or want to ride the 2-Hour.

Its invitation only and done by negotiation with the organizer and common sense, seems to work OK.

[Farmaken]

I can remember B grade running at Ohakea GP - why is that such a bad thing??

Is not qualifying for ,er .... qualifying ?

[dangerous]

Buckets has always been a fight to win and a full on class, I've always had fun regardless of how the class has evolvedFor some maybe, but most I know perfer to be having a mint time no mater were in the feild... I for one would bail from any position to help another in trouble yet I know those that race to the end or a red...




Your memory is a bit selective here D, remember the Nipper crash, thats the kind of thing we are talking about. It isnt about how much money we invest in the class overall, Aussie buckets are just as if not more spendy than ours.




FXRs and CBRs are 10 years old , not exactly modern tech, you are acting and sounding like a Luddite when you want to go back in time to when Bucket racing was piles of old junk with a few rockets sprinkled inNot slective but old n screwed theses days, Nipper exelant example, *thinking thinking* good point how to avoid that happening Im not sure but in that case I should have been more cearfull however hooked up in the race theres not much time to think.
Luddite? relgo aragant?
Old shitters were good but for most half the fun was working on them, tho that got tiring... what Im saying is with the speed and class off rider theres SFA you can do to lessen the chance the class needs to be treated more like every other, wont happen will it?

[TZ350]

The Mt Wellington Cup and 2-Hour are both run on the same day and no rider can run in both, its one or the other and are invitation only races. Invitation only as lap times somehow give people the idea they have a right, invitation is based on a wider critera.

[richban]

Last weekend a new (old) guy was riding his second race meeting on his new to him bucket, a much faster rider passed him in the last corner on the B track, he got spooked sat up and crashed into the passing rider, went to hospital with a punctured lung and broken ribs.



Was he wearing a high vis vest? I know that last BOB there were some slower dude's out there with vests on and for me it worked really well. Really snapped you out of the carve up mentality you can get in the heat of battle. Its not the cure but it is one step and should maybe be more widely enforced at every meeting. You wear the Vest of shame till you can do a 0.00 lap time or you have done 5 meetings without incident. Goes for people moving between grade as well. Just coz you are smoking in B does not mean you are safe in A. It may just change mind sets that little bit for both the people wearing the vest and those riding around them.

[Yow Ling]

Was he wearing a high vis vest? I know that last BOB there were some slower dude's out there with vests on and for me it worked really well. Really snapped you out of the carve up mentality you can get in the heat of battle. Its not the cure but it is one step and should maybe be more widely enforced at every meeting. You wear the Vest of shame till you can do a 0.00 lap time or you have done 5 meetings without incident. Goes for people moving between grade as well. Just coz you are smoking in B does not mean you are safe in A. It may just change mind sets that little bit for both the people wearing the vest and those riding around them.

Good idea, maybe the vests for anyone outside the cutoff, even if you have 50 races, either that or a road cone or chopper guard

[Buddha#81]

I dont think the vest is a silver bullet.......but it is a good visual indicator of potential lack of skill or speed. I think a munimum of 5 meetings no matter of skill level when starting, you could have a blindingly fast road rider putting in some good times but not have any idea of what to expect on the track. Some may never get out of vests due to lap times but if at some stage of a race that person is going to get lapped and at pace its a small price to pay to be that little bit safer for all!

I think some on and off track coaching/mentoring could go a long way for newcomers.

[Yow Ling]

Where's Waldo?

[F5 Dave]

The vests are only effective if you have clear vision. If you are behind someone you can't see through them. That's racing, you have to draft & vie for position.

Last BOB there were only about 3 bikes that needed to be weeded out for safety sake. The bikes were just soo much slower than everything else. but if there was time in the meeting having a consolation shorter race for B's is an option.

Personally one could run a 50 class off the same grid if it were promoted. The 50GP held a few years back had about 13 entries because it was promoted so people dragged the bikes out.

[gav]

So long as I don't have to wear a bloody vest ...... :cool:

[Yow Ling]

So long as I don't have to wear a bloody vest ...... :cool:

Pedal faster !

[gav]

Haha .... I'm not too sure what the answer is as far as BRMC being responsible for looking after the slower riders, apart from providing them with vests. As one who gets lapped by the fastest guys on a regular basis :rolleyes: it can be intimidating when youre not aware that someone is about to carve you up! My response use to be "farrrrkkkkkkkkkkk" now its more like "motherfucker .... grrrrrr" :devil2: It certainly can be hard not to flinch or change your line when someone nips up the inside etc ... and even more so if you are just starting out. I think the rest of the riders have to take some responsibilty too, if the guy you are chasing is going to pass a backmarker inside, probably best to follow him through rather than try and pass him on the outside at the same time. Unfortunately the short races don't help when using discretion when passing. But to be honest I've had more moments when racing with the streetstocks than I have had with buckets, some of those young guys are definately scary to race with! :eek:

[300weatherby]

Up Norf where they run on Kart tracks, buckets get the whole track for the whole day, which allows them the luxury of being to run A,B, C grades. Down here its a bit different, we run as a single class slotted in amongst superbikes classics and whatever, so we dont get to seperate the really fast guys from the really slow, sometimes the closing speeds are very high.

With the BOB coming up soon we will have the same problem real fast guys and guys riding buckets that have been dragged out of the 80's and represent a danger to themselves and others when combined with a lack of experience.

Last weekend a new (old) guy was riding his second race meeting on his new to him bucket, a much faster rider passed him in the last corner on the B track, he got spooked sat up and crashed into the passing rider, went to hospital with a punctured lung and broken ribs.

Can we work out a way to get them introduced to racing by making newbies run in MCI development class untill they have some competence then join into the buckets. For some reason people think buckets is soft, I think its really tough and fairly hostile , which is what makes bucket s great, but we need to ease new people with no experience into the class, when Streetstock guys come over they well sussed and usually show the old guys the way round

Any one have an opinion on this ?

There is no answer to this problem without a timing system and cut off times. Am assuming you were at Rd 2 Bears Winter Series - In F1 Bears, same problem, really slow people that should not be on that grid (everybody does have their own class to race in) are causing heart attacks by the end of lap2 in a 6 lap Btrack race -

Bad start and into turn 1 in 4th, trapped behind a BMW 1000RR for the whole race, got past him on corner entry 4 times only to get screwed by back markers on the exit, the last one was an all out last turn pass to the flag, id him (backmarker) even as diving under the Beamer (yet again) , fixed his position and speed on the track, had my exit line sorted, nek minit.........

He was going really slow, my line was to go outside on the gas, only he felt the need to keep running out wider and wider on what he probibly thought was a fast race line, had to seriously grab the pics, overdid it, lost the front, saved it, picked it back up enough to hold the gas on the outside ripple strip (some fillings fell out at that point!), the Beamer beat me to the flag...... The vid was quite .....instructive

Was mad as hell at the time, I needed those points, but - I have been on the other side of the same problem, there is no answer, if you are the overtaker it is supposed to be up to you to make it work safely, in theory irrespective of the actions of the guy in front.

Superbike, 600's, Buckets, Clubmans, ect ect, the same problem is always going to exist, track time is expensive to source for the race meeting organisers and they cannot split classes to the inth degree to suit everyone. Unless you are willing to settle for less time and laps in your race.

Concrete pills for everyone. Take two if you need.

[husaberg]

There is no answer to this problem

Was mad as hell at the time, I needed those points, but - I have been on the other side of the same problem, there is no answer, if you are the overtaker it is supposed to be up to you to make it work safely, in theory irrespective of the actions of the guy in front.

Superbike, 600's, Buckets, Clubmans, ect ect, the same problem is always going to exist, track time is expensive to source for the race meeting organisers and they cannot split classes to the inth degree to suit everyone. Unless you are willing to settle for less time and laps in your race.

Concrete pills for everyone. Take two if you need.

http://www.google.co.nz/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://www.ntnews.com.au/images/uploadedfiles/editorial/pictures/2010/09/12/HARDENUP_SIDE_IMAGE_300PX_KJ106516_160448.JPG&sa=X&ei=xM3eT6j2AsaiiAeOgrGxCg&ved=0CAsQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNF2gy1boXaM51vt5SbsL5BnbbZHMQ

Everyone has been the bunny or at some time will be the bunny. if you think that isn't the case think again.

Vests are a workable solution and really the only workable one. That coupled with patience.( i think its a virtue)

Even at the highest level there is always the same problem. Remember Doohan was a little scathing of the back-markers. But everyone doesn't always win do they.

[Str8 Jacket]

Threads like these definitely put me off considering coming down to the BoB and bucket racing in general TBH..... people start to think "I am too slow and dangerous and would probably just get in the "fast guy's" way".

[F5 Dave]

Back markers one can cope with. its the super slow bikes that make sickening impact a possibility. I wouldn't rate you as a problem Hels. This isn't about a thread to bash the slower riders, I think its more about the bikes that just can't make the grade (at least that's my take). or perhaps Learners still learning how to change gear, that would be an issue.

[Shorty_925]

I think its more about the bikes that just can't make the grade (at least that's my take). or perhaps Learners still learning how to change gear, that would be an issue.

Or is it the bikes at the front of the feild have gone too(or so) far in the pursuit of speed out of their machines? Thus in turn the riders at the back are perceived to be slower than they were before.

[Str8 Jacket]

Or is it the bikes at the front of the feild have gone too(or so) far in the pursuit of speed out of their machines? Thus in turn the riders at the back are perceived to be slower than they were before.

TBH - that's my feeling. It seems easier to just go back to s/stock or minilites, at least you'll be racing against a bike of the same power (ish) and the skill levels are relatively similar.

[F5 Dave]

No. You're not listening (if one can listen to the written word).

The biggest problem at the last BOB was super slow bikes which are almost parked. Throw in a large sweeper & a straight either side & it doesn't matter what you are riding. If you are racing in a group these guys can 'appear' ahead of you virtually motionless. Racing is racing & we know there are risks, but this is scary.

The BOB is a 55 min race. You have to cope with back markers in a way that doesn't show up on sprint races. But this goes beyond that.

[Str8 Jacket]

No. You're not listening (if one can listen to the written word).

The biggest problem at the last BOB was super slow bikes which are almost parked. Throw in a large sweeper & a straight either side & it doesn't matter what you are riding. If you are racing in a group these guys can 'appear' ahead of you virtually motionless. Racing is racing & we know there are risks, but this is scary.

The BOB is a 55 min race. You have to cope with back markers in a way that doesn't show up on sprint races. But this goes beyond that.

I guess what I am saying is how things are interpreted.... If a possible Bucket Noob was to read this thread then they may just walk away and go race something else cause a) there is alot less politics and b) at least all the bikes power, set up etc will be similar in a controlled class.

These types of threads and comments are the kind of thing that puts noobs and even some of us not so noobs into entering things like the GP and BoB........

[richban]

These types of threads and comments are the kind of thing that puts noobs and even some of us not so noobs into entering things like the GP and BoB........

You are put of by people trying to discuss making racing for all involved safer? WTF. Leave your personal issues at the door. This is about making racing safe. Nothing else.

Vests seams to be a hit so far. What rules regarding wearing one should we follow? First 5 races as a beginner? First 3 races when you change from B to A. New riders from out of town in any grade?

[Muzzab]

So long as I don't have to wear a bloody vest ...... :cool:

You and me both Gav..... :0)

[Muzzab]

Back markers one can cope with. its the super slow bikes that make sickening impact a possibility. I wouldn't rate you as a problem Hels. This isn't about a thread to bash the slower riders, I think its more about the bikes that just can't make the grade (at least that's my take). or perhaps Learners still learning how to change gear, that would be an issue.


The thread started off discussing a new (older) rider who was being passed by a fast rider. The bike he was riding is capable of doing over 120kmph and passed many of the slower bikes (several times) at last years BoB. How do I know? I was on it at the time. The accident could/would have happened if he was on the fastest bike out there. I'm not about to bash slower riders (I'm one of them), just wanted to state where the thread started. I understand where you are coming from regards how quickly the fast guys gain on the slow guys. If I hear them coming I try and stay wide to let them through, but it can get a bit busy if you are trying to pass someone as well.

Cheers
Muzza

[Str8 Jacket]

You are put of by people trying to discuss making racing for all involved safer? WTF. Leave your personal issues at the door. This is about making racing safe. Nothing else.

Vests seams to be a hit so far. What rules regarding wearing one should we follow? First 5 races as a beginner? First 3 races when you change from B to A. New riders from out of town in any grade?

Eh?? I am not having a vent, I am just calling it as I interpreted the thread to be about and making comment as to how others and myself read these types of comments on threads.......??

When comments are made as to speed difference and people riding pieces of shit it is easy to make some people feel like maybe they jsut shouldn't be out there. Sorry you took offence.

EDIT - the green rep from people that I have received says that I am not the only person that has read the thread like I did. Guess I was just after a bit more clarification and a bit more open mindedness regarding how these types of comments can come across to people. Again apologies for any offence caused.

[F5 Dave]

I guess what I am saying is how things are interpreted.... If a possible Bucket Noob was to read this thread then they may just walk away and go race something else cause a) there is alot less politics and b) at least all the bikes power, set up etc will be similar in a controlled class.

These types of threads and comments are the kind of thing that puts noobs and even some of us not so noobs into entering things like the GP and BoB........

When I said not listening I wasn't talking to you, um, no hold on, that sounded bad:facepalm:, but I mean I should have quoted Shorty re his jib about 'bikes going too fast now' That was what I was reacting to.

[Str8 Jacket]

When I said not listening I wasn't talking to you, um, no hold on, that sounded bad:facepalm:, but I mean I should have quoted Shorty re his jib about 'bikes going too fast now' That was what I was reacting to.

Bring out the Jelly Pit!!!! :D

[Shorty_925]

No. You're not listening (if one can listen to the written word).

The biggest problem at the last BOB was super slow bikes which are almost parked. Throw in a large sweeper & a straight either side & it doesn't matter what you are riding. If you are racing in a group these guys can 'appear' ahead of you virtually motionless. Racing is racing & we know there are risks, but this is scary.

The BOB is a 55 min race. You have to cope with back markers in a way that doesn't show up on sprint races. But this goes beyond that.


Like you said racing is racing. Its up to event organisers enforce the rules. Riders Rep is there to be used as well.

Off topic but this is KB so...: If I had a dollar for every trail ride Ive been on and a slower rider(and really slow riders), were in my way and I have just about hit them(or have hit them) and had to adjust my line, thus almost riding into a tree or off the side of a hill/cliff, Id be rich! Its part of it(off road), the fun & excitment, and no matter how safe you make it, something will always happen.

[ellipsis]

Its up to event organisers to enforce the rules.

....which in the case we are talking of, are?...

[Shorty_925]

....which in the case we are talking of, are?...
Depends on the supplymentary regs and what they say. From there 6.4: A Riders Representative shall be elected at or prior to riders briefing to be available to represent the interest of riders to the Steward of the Meeting on questions of safety, or other matters involving the welfare of competitors,
which I think F5 Dave and others have mentioned/mentioning. Prehaps using 6.4 would be the best at whichever event instead of on KB.

[all4A50s]

Interesting thread. I have just been though this dilemma with my daughter starting buckets in November and the way worked itself out (much thanks to Fish's patience);

When she started (wearing a vest) she was pulled from the track after being allowed to complete the race for being to slow. But by being allowed to complete the race, gave her the confidence to give another go.

The second meet she did a couple of races and then stopped when asked (again wearing a vest), which lead on to her to being mentored by several riders and attending practice days.

Since then she has raced at most meets and throughly enjoys it. She still is one of the slowest on the track and has been given the space/chance to develop into a confident rider (and has knocked 18 secs off her lap times).

What I saw during this time which worked (with her and others);

- Riders being given coaching when necessary, while letting them out when possible.

- Running two grades (as we do in Wgtn) works very well, with the fastest B-graders moving up when their times to help thin out out b-grade and allow riders to continue to improve.

- Wearing vests by new riders for at least three meets.

- Keeping it fun.

- Having handicap races.

The only thing I would like to see added would be the rule of only being allowed to pass a vested rider on the outside when cornering.

[kel]

If I hear them coming I try and stay wide to let them through, but it can get a bit busy if you are trying to pass someone as well.
Ah now thats my bugbear, if you're about to get lapped (and the blue flag lets everyone know) then your duel gets put on hold, maybe thats something that can be instilled at the mentoring stage, would certainly reduce the near misses.

[F5 Dave]

Bring out the Jelly Pit!!!! :D
Now we're talking:girlfight:

[F5 Dave]

. . .
The only thing I would like to see added would be the rule of only being allowed to pass a vested rider on the outside when cornering.
Sorry dude, lets be honest, this is racing not ballet, or even a track day. While it is fun it is also competition & people want to win or at least race with someone. If someone gets past a backmarker then the following person has to just as quickly or thier competition is ended. Depending where you meet these people will depend which side you go around.

Mentoring & riding practice is great stuff (and I have helped out here a number of times), but lets not lose track of; the core activity here is racing.

[Yow Ling]

Like you said racing is racing. Its up to event organisers enforce the rules. Riders Rep is there to be used as well.

Off topic but this is KB so...: If I had a dollar for every trail ride Ive been on and a slower rider(and really slow riders), were in my way and I have just about hit them(or have hit them) and had to adjust my line, thus almost riding into a tree or off the side of a hill/cliff, Id be rich! Its part of it(off road), the fun & excitment, and no matter how safe you make it, something will always happen.

but were you going 50 or 60 kph faster than them ?

[Kickaha]

Threads like these definitely put me off considering coming down to the BoB and bucket racing in general TBH.....
Yes but last time you did the decent thing and crashed out


The biggest problem at the last BOB was super slow bikes which are almost parked. Throw in a large sweeper & a straight either side & it doesn't matter what you are riding. If you are racing in a group these guys can 'appear' ahead of you virtually motionless. Racing is racing & we know there are risks, but this is scary.

The BOB is a 55 min race. You have to cope with back markers in a way that doesn't show up on sprint races. But this goes beyond that.

I found them to be no problem at all although not travelling at the pace of the front runners, the vest were visible several corners away so I knew I'd be in amongst them quickly although maybe I had more time to look around

[Shorty_925]

but were you going 50 or 60 kph faster than them ?

Yes it aint hard to twist the throttle.

[Str8 Jacket]

Yes but last time you did the decent thing and crashed out


On the warm up lap nonetheless too! :facepalm:

[jasonu]

Back markers one can cope with. its the super slow bikes that make sickening impact a possibility. I wouldn't rate you as a problem Hels. This isn't about a thread to bash the slower riders, I think its more about the bikes that just can't make the grade (at least that's my take). or perhaps Learners still learning how to change gear, that would be an issue.

Tru dat sista!

[gav]

But you can't always blame the bikes either. As Muzza said the bike that was involved in the incident is certainly fast enough, just inexperience on behalf of the riders concerned maybe. Even extra track time in a training class isnt really going to help with how to cope when getting lapped. Sure motor cycling can be dangerous but isnt that part of the thrill of racing? Accidents are going to happen, and sometimes you get taken out by someone elses mistake, it happens ... Hell, you could go and play golf and still get hit by a stray golf ball! :eek5:

[richban]

I found them to be no problem at all although not travelling at the pace of the front runners, the vest were visible several corners away so I knew I'd be in amongst them quickly although maybe I had more time to look around

Just looked over the video and its rather plain that vests worked well. We start lapping people about lap 3. The first dude has a vest and you can see him a mile off. Next one doesn't and gets passed at the quickest part of the track and I remember looking up and thinking wow where did you come from, please don't get spooked or we could be in trouble. Looking at that I am put off racing the BOB again. When I first started watching I thought wow I love that track. Then when the passing starts I thought. WTF. Thats mental dangerous. You judge for yourself.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/RB9HJSDJFgg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Muzzab]

Ah now thats my bugbear, if you're about to get lapped (and the blue flag lets everyone know) then your duel gets put on hold, maybe thats something that can be instilled at the mentoring stage, would certainly reduce the near misses.


Blue flag? Never seen one. Could be helpful though.

[Grumph]

Okay, reading what's being said can i make a suggestion - specifically for the BoB meeting.

If CAMS run to form you should get two five lap prelims in before the lunch break - which is BoB time.

If a rider can avoid being lapped in either of those prelims he/she can start in the BoB.

This will in effect give you a 20% speed differential which is probably acceptable. The track layout also gives slower riders a chance once a lap to look across while exiting the hairpin and check if they're going to be caught in the infield. If this is pointed out to competitors at riders briefing it may ensure tail enders staying alert.

[Dutchee]

Just looked over the video and its rather plain that vests worked well. We start lapping people about lap 3. The first dude has a vest and you can see him a mile off. Next one doesn't and gets passed at the quickest part of the track and I remember looking up and thinking wow where did you come from, please don't get spooked or we could be in trouble. Looking at that I am put off racing the BOB again. When I first started watching I thought wow I love that track. Then when the passing starts I thought. WTF. Thats mental dangerous. You judge for yourself.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/RB9HJSDJFgg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Without watching the whole video, what needs to happen with BoB is, lose the ego's at sign-on. If you're not going to be in the top 10 or so, wear a vest. The riders wearing vests were visible through Rich's numberboard (if he looked far enough ahead), but those others going around the same speed really weren't. Maybe all "B grade" riders?

I won't ride events like this as I'd either not qualify (due to lack of speed), or if I did, I know I'd not enjoy it as I'd be stressing out too much about when I was about to be lapped. I'm over entering events and choosing not to ride them, I'd rather just have fun & wander around. Regular club meets in the N.I. I generally enjoy, but on days I'm not feeling it, I won't ride, as it's not safe for myself and other riders.

[aarondixon]

As a newbie to this and one of the guys getting lapped (for now) I thought I could add my 2 cents:
- if wearing a vest helps identify me then i'm happy to wear one until I'm no longet getting lapped. It'll be good motivation for me to grow a pair and go that bit faster
- I personally don't think the BOB is the right place for a newbie. The racing gets spread out and slower guys are getting passed constantly. Plus the longer race can contribute to a lack of concentration for some. A slower B grade race that is shorter may be ok but thats depends on how much time you got I guess
- It needs to be made clear to newbies at riders briefing not to change their line when they are getting passed or hear a bike coming up on them.
- Rule no of passing though is those doing the passing need to do so safely. Give the slow guy a bit of room so he don't cr*p in his leathers and sit up!
- Theres no substitute for track time and training. I had a lesson with Dan Ornsby a few years ago and it made a big difference at the time (unfortunately i then didn't ride track for 2 years). I plan on booking another lesson with Dan soon and some of the slower guys could possibly be encouraged to as well?

my thoughts anyway. cheers.

[Kickaha]

If you're not going to be in the top 10 or so, wear a vest. The riders wearing vests were visible through Rich's numberboard (if he looked far enough ahead), but those others going around the same speed really weren't. Maybe all "B grade" riders?

30 riders wearing vests? you just made them worthless as a warning

[Muzzab]

Just looked over the video and its rather plain that vests worked well. We start lapping people about lap 3. The first dude has a vest and you can see him a mile off. Next one doesn't and gets passed at the quickest part of the track and I remember looking up and thinking wow where did you come from, please don't get spooked or we could be in trouble. Looking at that I am put off racing the BOB again. When I first started watching I thought wow I love that track. Then when the passing starts I thought. WTF. Thats mental dangerous. You judge for yourself.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/RB9HJSDJFgg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I watched and went " Who-hoo :woohoo: can't wait "

So which slow bike made you fall off? :nya: hee hee .......

[Muzzab]

30 riders wearing vests? you just made them worthless as a warning

I don't have a vest, but I have a bright yellow t-shirt from the Greymouth Street Races that I intend throwing on over the leathers.
If it helps the fast fellas to see you and start thinking about you sooner it's cool by me.

[richban]

So which slow bike made you fall off? :nya: hee hee .......

No one to blame but me.

[Yow Ling]

thanks Rich, the vid put the problem into perspective.

muzza, I had forgotten about the yellow shirts at greymouth

I have noticed a few riders do the bob as their entry to buckets or their annual race, these guys should ,like others have said be put into the other races and excluded from bob

Paul who was in the crash at the start of the thread is back home probably pretty sore still, old bones take longer to heal, his problem wasnt the bike or the visibility, just got spooked and went the wrong way

[gav]

Okay, reading what's being said can i make a suggestion - specifically for the BoB meeting.

If CAMS run to form you should get two five lap prelims in before the lunch break - which is BoB time.

If a rider can avoid being lapped in either of those prelims he/she can start in the BoB.

This will in effect give you a 20% speed differential which is probably acceptable. The track layout also gives slower riders a chance once a lap to look across while exiting the hairpin and check if they're going to be caught in the infield. If this is pointed out to competitors at riders briefing it may ensure tail enders staying alert.
And if a rider is lapped .... ????
The Hoogies/Nick Cain etc would probably lap maybe 1/4 of the field in a 6 lap sprint race. It's not so much the tail enders staying alert, it's maybe some of the faster guys staying alert as well when they are passing. If some riders are dangerously slow maybe a black flag to those riders concerned? Maybe a 10 lap consolation race of their own could be an option?

[puddytat]

Just looked over the video and its rather plain that vests worked well. We start lapping people about lap 3. The first dude has a vest and you can see him a mile off. Next one doesn't and gets passed at the quickest part of the track and I remember looking up and thinking wow where did you come from, please don't get spooked or we could be in trouble. Looking at that I am put off racing the BOB again. When I first started watching I thought wow I love that track. Then when the passing starts I thought. WTF. Thats mental dangerous. You judge for yourself.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/RB9HJSDJFgg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

man that was great!! Reminds me when i raced wiff ya:yes:

[marsheng]

After watching Richard's video, I've become aware of how fast he passes back markers.

The BOB is set for the 8th of September 2012 in conjunction with a CAMS day. Cams have Buckets and a 250/150 in which we are eligable, so there will be no shortage of racing for our group on the day.

The BOB is a serious race and we probably corner as fast as some of the superbikes which is the main issue. Last race meeting down here, we sent a backmarker to hospital for 4 days, with broken ribs and punctured lung. He was being overtaken on a corner and made a mistake !!!

What say we have qualifying times for the BOB during the earlier races and anyone below a certain time, has to sit it out for safety reasons.

Let me know your thoughts. Wallace

[gav]

I'm not sure how adding even faster bikes into the group (250 Prolite and Streetstocks) is going to improve the situation?
Think the Hoogies pretty much lapped everybody last year, just because you get lapped doesnt make you a danger to others, does it?

[Yow Ling]

Let me know your thoughts. Wallace

Just read the previous 5 pages !

[Grumph]

I'm not sure how adding even faster bikes into the group (250 Prolite and Streetstocks) is going to improve the situation?
Think the Hoogies pretty much lapped everybody last year, just because you get lapped doesnt make you a danger to others, does it?

Not as such, no. But as has been emphasised in the preceding pages - and yes, wallace, READ THEM - it's the speed differentials while passing and the "sudden appearance" of slow machinery which is causing concern.

The solution I proposed is perhaps too simplistic but without timing it is at least workable. With a couple of prelims you at least get a chance to qualify within about 120% of the leaders times.

[F5 Dave]

Okay, reading what's being said can i make a suggestion - specifically for the BoB meeting.

If CAMS run to form you should get two five lap prelims in before the lunch break - which is BoB time.

If a rider can avoid being lapped in either of those prelims he/she can start in the BoB.

This will in effect give you a 20% speed differential which is probably acceptable. The track layout also gives slower riders a chance once a lap to look across while exiting the hairpin and check if they're going to be caught in the infield. If this is pointed out to competitors at riders briefing it may ensure tail enders staying alert.

This seems imminently sensible.

[cotswold]

And if a rider is lapped .... ????
The Hoogies/Nick Cain etc would probably lap maybe 1/4 of the field in a 6 lap sprint race. It's not so much the tail enders staying alert, it's maybe some of the faster guys staying alert as well when they are passing. If some riders are dangerously slow maybe a black flag to those riders concerned? Maybe a 10 lap consolation race of their own could be an option?



I seem to remember Avalon lapping the entire field at one of the NI rounds.
My 2 cents for what it's worth, Orange jackets mandatory until the rider has finished 10 meetings ( as in Uk club racing ) and riders should have to finish 10 races in the top 50% before they can enter a national type meeting GP or BOB.
This would need a bit of extra work at the clubs but would solve most of the issues.
The thing is though people like buckets because of it's lack of regulations and I agree with the comment re the the onus should be on the person doing the overtaking not the one being overtaken. It would be a shame to put new people off buckets as the strength of the fields show that it is a winning formula that may need tinkering but not overhauling.
Off the soap box.

[kel]

It's not so much the tail enders staying alert, it's maybe some of the faster guys staying alert as well when they are passing.
And everyone in between. The fast guys are alert and have their passing line sorted very quickly. The slower riders know the fast guys are coming, they need to understand where to look i.e. flag boxes, and what to do i.e. generally just hold the line they're on. Mentoring, vests and cut off times, all sensible ideas for making racing safer and more fun for everyone!

[kel]

I seem to remember Avalon lapping the entire field at one of the NI rounds.
Never happened, no definitely not, ego says no, memory says no. :oi-grr:
bastard :lol:

[jasonu]

I seem to remember Avalon lapping the entire field at one of the NI rounds.
My 2 cents for what it's worth, Orange jackets mandatory until the rider has finished 10 meetings ( as in Uk club racing ) and riders should have to finish 10 races in the top 50% before they can enter a national type meeting GP or BOB.
This would need a bit of extra work at the clubs but would solve most of the issues.

Off the soap box.

That would have the side effect of encourageing the somewhat experienced riders into going a little bit faster. You don't want to be beaten by a noob dressed in an orange vest do ya...:oi-grr:

[cotswold]

Never happened, no definitely not, ego says no, memory says no. :oi-grr:
bastard :lol:

It's called denial :killingme

[husaberg]

Never happened, no definitely not, ego says no, memory says no. :oi-grr:
bastard :lol:

I seem to remember in the 90's they made a minimum weight limit for riders to give they more generously proportioned riders a fighting chance;)

[Kickaha]

This seems imminently sensible.

It has no place in Buckets then

[dangerous]

I have given this some thought and I'd have to support the idea of using a sprint race before the bob as a means of rating racers for the main event, if you are lapped in a 4-5 lap race then you will not qualify for the BOB. Initally I was against it as buckets are for everyone, but at the end of the day the bob is a specilised race for those that can hack the pace for the hour, its not easy and in order for things to be safe and for the event to carry on unfortunatly it needs to be. A day glo for Gav is a must aswell.

[gav]

I have given this some thought and I'd have to support the idea of using a sprint race before the bob as a means of rating racers for the main event, if you are lapped in a 4-5 lap race then you will not qualify for the BOB. Initally I was against it as buckets are for everyone, but at the end of the day the bob is a specilised race for those that can hack the pace for the hour, its not easy and in order for things to be safe and for the event to carry on unfortunatly it needs to be. A day glo for Gav is a must aswell.

My tail section is bright orange, thats enough, and I must say the racing is much safer since you retired too ... :lol: :nya:

[dangerous]

My tail section is bright orange, thats enough, and I must say the racing is much safer since you retired too ... :lol: :nya:yeah but the pace slowed down too... :whistle:

[Trudes]

Oh well, I guess I should just feel lucky that I actually got to experience a BOB and a couple of GPs before I could no longer qualify to even start.

[Kickaha]

Oh well, I guess I should just feel lucky that I actually got to experience a BOB and a couple of GPs before I could no longer qualify to even start.

Cant say I ever considered you a problem at that meeting

[dangerous]

Oh well, I guess I should just feel lucky that I actually got to experience a BOB and a couple of GPs before I could no longer qualify to even start.
No T, the riders and bikes that are at question are well slower than you could ever be, and we are talking even coming from me heaps a shit old YB's for example that are past it. :(

[Trudes]

Cant say I ever considered you a problem at that meeting

Aww thanks, but it was snowing, sure your brain hadn't frozen?
I have a better bike now and surely riding faster, but it seems everyone else is riding significantly faster than then also!
Never to mind, it was FUN while it lasted! That BOB was probably the most fun I've had racing, probably because I was riding a heap of shit and it was snowing, (and I lapped my hubby!) :laugh:

[Trudes]

No T, the riders and bikes that are at question are well slower than you could ever be, and we are talking even coming from me heaps a shit old YB's for example that are past it. :(

Shit! That is saying something!!

So maybe on the shorter tracks like the kart tracks old heaps of shit would still be ok, but not on the longer tracks where the flash bikes are going a shit load faster?
We don't want to totally discourage people starting out on an old shitter, just don't take it to Ruapuna or Taupo, right?

[Yow Ling]

We don't want to totally discourage people starting out on an old shitter, just don't take it to Ruapuna or Taupo, right?

I think we should discourage people from buying shitters, they dont do themselves or buckets a favour by having them, all they do is continue the myth that buckets are or should be pieces of shit, when in fact they are a full on racing class, with good gear etc.

how many times have you seen somebody turn up with a heap of shit , pay the money and spend all day trying to make the bike last more than a few laps. Apart from woody racer how many times have you seen this happen to somebody with an FXR?

Trudes, I think you are taking this personally , its just a discussion on how to make Buckets safer and better, not every race should be open to everyone as of right, if you have the miles under your belt you probably dont fit into the risk group that concerns me.

[Henk]

I disagree on the "no shitters" sentiment. They have their place as a cheap and easy way into buckets, there are a few up here that have passed through a few sets of hands and those that start with them usually move onto something better in time. If I had had to drop the price of a half decent FXR as the cost of entry I would probably still be hacking around on a dirt bike instead.
My first bucket at $300 for an XL125 based pile of crap has led to two F4 bikes two F5 bikes and half a sidecar in the fleet as well as getting mates into the game. Admittedly we mainly run kart tracks where the speeds aren't as high and where we tend to have the place to ourselves for the day. June we ran F4, F5, B grade and C grade for the first time. Would have run trikes as well but only one turned up. This means we don't have the issue with high closing speeds and people getting lapped so regularly so the points above probably don't add much to the discussion.
We probably have more issues with inexperienced riders on A grade capable bikes riding with A grade aggression in the B grade but that probably can't be helped either.
I like the hi vis idea and we use that to a degree up here, I also like the mentor idea which we don't really do in a formal manner in Auckland but may bear serious consideration.

[richban]

A grade capable bikes riding with A grade aggression in the B grade but that probably can't be helped either.
I like the hi vis idea and we use that to a degree up here, I also like the mentor idea which we don't really do in a formal manner in Auckland but may bear serious consideration.

The B grade meat grinder scares the crap out of me. More aggression there than any A grade race I have watched lately. Yeah mentoring is the way to go. Someone like Dave M or Gary would be great up your end.

[Henk]

Ran the 100 in B a couple of months ago, fortunately I managed to go under the cut off so that isn't possible for me any more. B grade races were OK because after the start things have largely sorted themselves out. The warm up laps on the other hand, FECK!

[Trudes]

I think we should discourage people from buying shitters, they dont do themselves or buckets a favour by having them, all they do is continue the myth that buckets are or should be pieces of shit, when in fact they are a full on racing class, with good gear etc.

how many times have you seen somebody turn up with a heap of shit , pay the money and spend all day trying to make the bike last more than a few laps. Apart from woody racer how many times have you seen this happen to somebody with an FXR?

Trudes, I think you are taking this personally , its just a discussion on how to make Buckets safer and better, not every race should be open to everyone as of right, if you have the miles under your belt you probably dont fit into the risk group that concerns me.

Not taking anything personally, at no point did I do this :crybaby:
Why is it that the guys think the chicks are taking it personally?
Anyway, I don't know how things are going elsewhere in the country but I often see Wellington people who show interest in the class be told "yeah nylon up that shitty old hunk of crap that's been sitting in your grandad's shed for 20 years and we'll have fun trying to get the bugger to go, and even if it doesn't someone will give you a go on theirs." Some people still enjoy pissing about with old heaps of shit, amazing what you learn when things don't work first pop and you have to take it apart and work out why.
I wouldn't encourage anyone to buy a piece of shit, but that's where some people have to start.
Not everyone wants to race a FXR or a CBR.
And here I WILL get personal. The day I feel I HAVE to ride a 4stroke is the day I stop.;)

[cotswold]

[Someone like Dave M or Gary would be great up your end.[/QUOTE]

Sorry but not keen on having either up my end thank you very much:eek5:

[gav]

I think we should discourage people from buying shitters, they dont do themselves or buckets a favour by having them, all they do is continue the myth that buckets are or should be pieces of shit, when in fact they are a full on racing class, with good gear etc.

Ahhh, this explains why you buy up so many old shitters, you are helping other people out by taking them off the market! :2thumbsup

[dangerous]

I think we should discourage people from buying shitters, they dont do themselves or buckets a favour by having them, all they do is continue the myth that buckets are or should be pieces of shit, when in fact they are a full on racing class, with good gear etc..and... this is were I disagree...
'buckets' have been since the beginning of time just that 'buckets' its the battle of the BUCKETS the BUCKET MC club... not battle of the F4's or the F4 MC club... Bucket founders would be rolling in there graves knowing what you want to take away the hole idea of 'bucket racing'

The BOB is a endurance race, about the bike, whos POS bucket would last and whos wouldent, not an extened sprint race for the fastast of fast.
Yes time moves on, what we have cant be helped, however I do believe what you explain is called F1 why you are to sceared to race that I dont know, buckets were never ment to be a race track class, but it has become that, nothing wrong there, but I do think a few need to remember what the class began as.




Some people still enjoy pissing about with old heaps of shit, amazing what you learn when things don't work first pop and you have to take it apart and work out why.thats right, and thats how it began, airforce guys in there spear time wanting to build an engine to go faster then test it out them selves, then improve it more

[Yow Ling]

thats right, and thats how it began, airforce guys in there spear time wanting to build an engine to go faster then test it out them selves, then improve it more

And how does somebody bring a fucked old bike with stickytape for a seat and no work done on it for 10 years somehow fit into those guidelines ?
Buckets were in my recolection from when I was in the airforce pretty well engineered and not based on 30year old bikes at the time

[Grumph]

and... this is were I disagree...
'buckets' have been since the beginning of time just that 'buckets' its the battle of the BUCKETS the BUCKET MC club... not battle of the F4's or the F4 MC club... Bucket founders would be rolling in there graves knowing what you want to take away the hole idea of 'bucket racing'

The BOB is a endurance race, about the bike, whos POS bucket would last and whos wouldent, not an extened sprint race for the fastast of fast.
Yes time moves on, what we have cant be helped, however I do believe what you explain is called F1 why you are to sceared to race that I dont know, buckets were never ment to be a race track class, but it has become that, nothing wrong there, but I do think a few need to remember what the class began as.



thats right, and thats how it began, airforce guys in there spear time wanting to build an engine to go faster then test it out them selves, then improve it more

Sorry D - looking back with fond memories won't work any more, at least locally. Once buckets had moved away from Carrs Rd and onto the big tracks the conflict began because they always ran at other peoples meetings - often ones i ran. And shit I hated having them there !! Arguments, occasional fights and OIL OIL OIL dropped everybloodywhere. No one is happier than me that the general standard of the bucket fleet has risen - principally due to the FXR. It lives on big tracks and doesn't drop it's guts very often.
Yes the cost has risen - it's risen in all bloody classes, not just the ones you are interested in, fact of bloody life mate.
Agression on (and sometimes off) track has always been afeature of buckets - I reckon the smaller the bike, the more agressive the rider,.I remember a very good rider in his first bucket race on the tri oval who backed off going into the first turn and got run over by half the field.....par for the course then. Not now as speeds and costs have risen, no one wants to be that committed any more - it costs too much in too many ways.

[marsheng]

well engineered and not based on 30year old bikes at the time

Hmm, mine is 32 years old this year and you are only a nats wisker in front of me!!!!!!

[F5 Dave]

I think we should discourage people from buying shitters, they dont do themselves or buckets a favour by having them, all they do is continue the myth that buckets are or should be pieces of shit, when in fact they are a full on racing class, with good gear etc.
. . .
I agree with Mike. An old bike can still be an effective bucket. Heck look at the Steadmans bikes (Joe 1 for example) & Morley Sheriffs bikes. My RG50 is the newest bucket I had & I didn't buy one till they got to $400 & closing on a decade old.

The difference is a real POS is a real POS. Buy an old bike for sure, but it is better for everyone that it isn't total junk. The Banana bike Henk speaks of is probably just above that line, but bikes worse than that are a waste of time for everyone & on long tracks dangerous. A std GP100 on okish tyres will still be racable. The same bike left outside since the 80s with a blocked exhaust & a broken ring, knackered bearings etc = POS.

Well that needs work before getting near a track. Probably more work than finding a different bike.

The bikes that don't run properly should be culled & its not being too harsh to expect that there is a min level.

[F5 Dave]

Not taking anything personally, at no point did I do this :crybaby:
Why is it that the guys think the chicks are taking it personally?. . .
Aww, maybe a little cry?;) nah nah, Lots of people (guys included) seem to take this thread personally & generally as far as I can make out they aren't the issue.

Rangi & you on a long cct (or a short one) would be just fine. In fact I think you & Nige should def come down for the BOB!!!


. . .And here I WILL get personal. The day I feel I HAVE to ride a 4stroke is the day I stop.;)
That's me girl!!!:rockon:

[Yow Ling]

Hmm, mine is 32 years old this year and you are only a nats wisker in front of me!!!!!!

Reread what you quoted , I said that buckets in the 80's wernt based on (then) 30 year old bikes, the only thing on your bike thats 30 years old is the engine, and it seems to get its fair share of maintence to keep it up to scratch. That isnt what this thread is about, if you can contribute something towards safety, please do.

[ellipsis]

...these threads seem to go round and round...meandering on generalities, sometimes bordering on specifics...

here is specific;

1. CAMS is hosting the BoB...we will go out of our way to ensure you have a good, safe day of racing.

2. As it is a big day for Buckets, CAMS will try and accommodate your wishes...if this means extra track time for those who dont or cant make the cut, we will try and help there too.

3. As with CAMS ethos, we are in this for fun. We will always ensure a rider track time if they turn up at one of our meetings...if this means a newer, slower rider turns up with a Pre 89...they will probably be in with the 72's or even the Classics until they have got their shit together...this has been our M.O for a long time...however when it comes to the Buckets, which we support at our meetings, this system doesn't have any merit. Where do they get put if they are new, trying to gain experience.

4. We are all guilty of trying to entice new riders into our sport, and Buckets have been touted for a long time now, as an , entry level class to the sport. Maybe if their is no entry level into Buckets, this premise is faulty. ( A South Island problem?)

5. If the BMRC wish things to change for the better with this specific speed differential problem, then it is really up to that club to come up with the solutions and bring them to the clubs that support their racing. Very few members of the BMRC belong to the CAMS club yet we are fully into you all being part of what we do...

6. Make sure there are enough vests on the day and that your riders rep has it all in hand before the track opens for practice.

[F5 Dave]

[Edit]
Sorry I was a bit slow responding to Mikes comment & it seems a bit redundant after last post, pretend its one up


Reread what you quoted , I said that buckets in the 80's wernt based on (then) 30 year old bikes, the only thing on your bike thats 30 years old is the engine, and it seems to get its fair share of maintence to keep it up to scratch. That isnt what this thread is about, if you can contribute something towards safety, please do.




Indeed, when I started in the late 80s it was easier to get bikes as there was many to choose from & they weren't that old. But the airforce boys all had pretty well engineered bikes as they had the time & the people around them with the skills. The POS bikes weren't tolerated there, or at least not at Ohakea where I did my racing.

[jasonu]

Someone like Dave M or Gary would be great up your end.

What does this mean???:confused:

[jasonu]

The bikes that don't run properly should be culled & its not being too harsh to expect that there is a min level.

Sounds like you are out of luck then Dave...

[Henk]

What does this mean???:confused:

They both know how to ride and more importantly can get the message across when they have a hack at passing the knowledge along.

[dangerous]

I agree with Mike. An old bike can still be an effective bucket. Heck look at the Steadmans bikes (Joe 1 for example) & Morley Sheriffs bikes. My RG50 is the newest bucket I had & I didn't buy one till they got to $400 & closing on a decade old.

The difference is a real POS is a real POS. Buy an old bike for sure, but it is better for everyone that it isn't total junk.
again I agree, why are people posting as if there is someone here suporting actual shit box's? I dont



Sorry D... many ways. agreed, why do you lot see me as anti new shit, hell I joined in remember...


And how does somebody bring a fucked old bike with stickytape for a seat and no work done on it for 10 years somehow fit into those guidelines ?hey hang on... I already said the likes of the Jones YB100's should go 'a fucked old bike with stickytape for a seat' as you put it should also be considered past it.

[marsheng]

I'll arrange a BMRC meeting next week with the current committee and possibly a few old presidents and make a decision on the BOB. Our decision will be posted up asap so every one will have ample warning.

If there is anyway we can help the NI make the trip, please let us know. We would love to have you down here.

PS CAMS is on the 8th September which is a Saturday. The track can be hired privately on Friday for $50 for the afternoon or morning, and there is a Bears meeting on Sunday starting at 12:00. With Bears you should get 1 practice, 2 races and an all in for $40.

Cheers Wallace

[Muzzab]

Good on you Wallace, that sounds like a plan.

Cheers
Muzza

[Monkeynz]

It has been an intersting read going through everyones comments.
The core issue is in regards to everyones safety. And as someone has pointed out the BOB is a once yearly race, and because of this fact in my opinion it should only be open to those riders that are experienced(at least 6 race meets) and can ride at a reasonable pace(Gav and Muzza this includes you :2thumbsup). There are always going to be racing incidences, that's the nature of racing regardless of what it is you are in or on. But if we can reduce the risk to all those involved then that has to be better for everyone, even for those that will miss out initially.
One thing I have also noticed over that last couple of years is that it's not the riders that are getting quicker but the bikes are, huge amounts of money are getting spent on the bikes, in particular the FXR so are now pulling well over 20HP. The speeds are getting so much faster so I am even struggling to keep up with some on my almost standard FXR. I just get swamped off the start line and if I do catch up and get past then I am overtaken on the straights very effortlessly by these more powerful bikes.
This is also adding to an increased risk of having a large accident with someone that is slower whether thay are experienced or not. It's just the nature of F4 now, it is becoming more competitive and serious and most are doing what they can to go faster, it's human nature to want to go faster and just a natural progression of the class.

I want more Horsepower :weep:

[Rashika]

Without watching the whole video, what needs to happen with BoB is, lose the ego's at sign-on. If you're not going to be in the top 10 or so, wear a vest. The riders wearing vests were visible through Rich's numberboard (if he looked far enough ahead), but those others going around the same speed really weren't. Maybe all "B grade" riders?


errr yeah all good in theory but the BOB attracts sometimes in excess of 40 racers... you wanna see 30 racers wearing vests?? :rolleyes: pointless to say the least...
Yes MOST definately put vests on the known slower racers, they will actually most likely be happy to wear one cos it can provide some protection from some of the over enthusiastic faster (and at times not necessarily safer) racers

so anyway, been reading and I can understand the reasoning some have about the slower racers BUT... the BOB is an endurance event, its not a sprint race (in theory anyway... 55 mins on a bucket often in the snow/ice/rain is most definately a test of endurance). People come from all over for it and it would gut me to turn up and then be told nah... you too slow, bugger off. From what I have seen and experienced this problem has always been there and always will be no matter what class. Buckets is just unfortunate that it only has ONE class and so cannot really split the slower and faster racers, so other options need to be made.
• Vests... yes definately!
• Using ya fkn noggin when passing... especially the faster racers! You have the experience so use it wisely, dont get so distracted that you forget there are more people on the track than just the person you are chasing
• repeat the above again and again...

I kinda miss racing, especially reading this thread but life moves on

oh yeah before I forget, that incident with nipper... yeap remember that one well, was just behind them at the time and saw it happen, but what you kinda forget there YL is that Nipper was by far from being inexperienced or a complete newbie then, he had a few races under his belt. I think both the passing riders learned their lesson but it definately is a reminder that faster racers really do need to keep an eye on the WHOLE situation around them.

Ok off to read the rest of the thread...

[Rashika]

On the warm up lap nonetheless too! :facepalm:

thats ok you had good company there chick... eh Dangerous?? :lol:

[F5 Dave]

thats ok you had good company there chick... eh Dangerous?? :lol:
. . .[little cough] yeah you muppets.:o


least it got me out of having to do that blizzard race.

[Rashika]

And if a rider is lapped .... ????
The Hoogies/Nick Cain etc would probably lap maybe 1/4 of the field in a 6 lap sprint race. It's not so much the tail enders staying alert, it's maybe some of the faster guys staying alert as well when they are passing. If some riders are dangerously slow maybe a black flag to those riders concerned? Maybe a 10 lap consolation race of their own could be an option?

yeah... being lapped is scary in itself, not so much the pride thing :whistle: more that feeling that someone is there and could just miscalculate by a fraction and send you off the track, and you are completely unable to do a thing about it. The blue warning flags are great... it just makes you aware that someone is coming up fast so just hold your line and your breath! Newbies and slower riders need to know what that flag is for and marshalls need to use them if they can.

[Rashika]

Aww thanks, but it was snowing, sure your brain hadn't frozen?
I have a better bike now and surely riding faster, but it seems everyone else is riding significantly faster than then also!
Never to mind, it was FUN while it lasted! That BOB was probably the most fun I've had racing, probably because I was riding a heap of shit and it was snowing, (and I lapped my hubby!) :laugh:

haha... yeah me too!
Though he wasn't my hubby at the time or even now, but fck it felt GOOOOOOOOOOOODDDDDDD :nya:

[Rashika]

The bikes that don't run properly should be culled & its not being too harsh to expect that there is a min level.

yeah and this I do agree on...
and even some of the better ones need to be maintained well. I seem to recall a current ducati rider loosing his bucket exhaust in the air one race, damn near took out another racer too.

[Rashika]

. . .[little cough] yeah you muppets.:o


least it got me out of having to do that blizzard race.

oh yeah I forgot about you!!
ya woos ...that blizzard race was awesome! :lol:

[Grumph]

yeah... being lapped is scary in itself, not so much the pride thing :whistle: more that feeling that someone is there and could just miscalculate by a fraction and send you off the track, and you are completely unable to do a thing about it. The blue warning flags are great... it just makes you aware that someone is coming up fast so just hold your line and your breath! Newbies and slower riders need to know what that flag is for and marshalls need to use them if they can.

Ah, yes, blue flags...the use of these requires effectively double the number of marshalls. "Normal" marshalls face the corner they're marshalling - all you should see of them is their backs as you approach. A blue flag marshall must face oncoming traffic to be effective at judging when to hang out the flag.....The sheer difficulty of finding enough marshalls is why you seldom see blue flags used at a club day.

WALLACE !! Volunteers please....

[Rashika]

Yeah i figured that was the reason it doesnt get used much... Shame really

[Kickaha]

least it got me out of having to do that blizzard race.

I thought you must have been to tired to do it, wasn't that why you were lying down?

[marsheng]

The blue warning flags are great... it just makes you aware that someone is coming up fast so just hold your line and your breath!

The blue flag is a waste of time, watch Richard's video. He passes so quickly that the marshal would still be in the process of lifting the flag to wave it and Richard would be past.

It's not really the speed difference but both speed difference and rider lack of experience.

I was taken out last year by a newbee. I was overtaking on the outside, gave him plenty of room, but the bugger took the whole corner to get around and I had no where to go. I have never seen someone take that corner like that at such a slow speed. It was really a training event for him. This is not what I would call racing it's an accident waiting to happen.

[husaberg]

The blue flag is a waste of time, watch Richard's video. He passes so quickly that the marshal would still be in the process of lifting the flag to wave it and Richard would be past.

It's not really the speed difference but both speed difference and rider lack of experience.

I was taken out last year by a newbee. I was overtaking on the outside, gave him plenty of room, but the bugger took the whole corner to get around and I had no where to go. I have never seen someone take that corner like that at such a slow speed. It was really a training event for him. This is not what I would call racing it's an accident waiting to happen.


I have been the hare and i have been the tortoise.
Every race will have them the important thing is at race briefing someone has to stand up and lay down the law.
For both the less gifted the simply thing is to not be intimidated and you must hold you line.
All too often the slower rider feels intimated and tries to get out of the way.

Also just as importantly that it is the passing riders job to pass in a safe manner without causing the slower rider to crash to avoid them.

I think Ray Sherman (like him or not) sermons used to include something along the lines of if i catch someone looking around behind them he will rip off their head and shit down there neck.(This may be a slight paraphrase for dramatic effect but you get my point)

[ajturbo]

What I'd suggest is that the Bucket Club start briefing novices themselves...grab them after riders briefing and sort out any problems they have and if necessary give them a mentor for the day.
..

this is what i did for the SS for the vic club, we had the main Rider's brief then i would hold one for the SS class AND all NEW riders, i would go over flags, passing, break-downs, flags (again) coming into pits, red flags, black flags..(liked to rub things in)
it allowed me to get to know the new riders, find out their concerns/questions in a more one-on-one situation (a bit intimidating at the main riders brief)
i am more than willing to do this again...


I saw the thread title and thought - carb icing.
first race down here the other day saw ice until lunch time..!!!


So long as I don't have to wear a bloody vest ...... :cool:

please do, so i have a target...:girlfight:

[husaberg]

I couldn't be arsed to look and see if the old Codger who wrote this posted on the thread or not i guess if he did it would be something like this'