Palm readings?

[placidfemme]

There is this chick at my work who has been working here for about 2 years now, but she's spent most of the time working in our branch in China, and has recently returned to NZ to work for us here.

A few other staff members have told me (during our smoko break) that she reads palms and that she is very accurate... and they all say I should let her read my palm...

I spoke to her about it, and she said she senses that I don't trust her ability to read my palm (well duh doesn't take a pshycic (sp) to assume that), and that when I'm ready I should go to her and she'll read my palm...

Now I don't really believe in this sort of thing, but am curious to hear what she has to say...

What do you think? Have you ever had your palm read?

[Edit] Tried to add a poll but something went wrong lol

[Matt Bleck]

I spoke to her about it, and she said she senses that I don't trust her ability to read my palm (well duh doesn't take a pshycic (sp) to assume that), and that when I'm ready I should go to her and she'll read my palm...


SO did she say when that would be.. :rofl:

Oh, hang on, I guess she would have to read your palm to know that. :whistle:

[mstriumph]

yep ------- [it was back when peer pressure could make me do stuff like that .. lol] got there on time, had to wait 15 mins ....spent the time stalking resentfully up and down outside ['cause i really didn't want to be there] - went in, sat down, gave her my hand and was told "ah - i see you don't handle frustration well ......" collapsed laughing - i mean, wow, how could she possibly have known that? :eek5:
Seriously, if you grant that she probably knows a heap about you already and are prepared to treat it as fun & not the delphi oracle why not?
There is this chick at my work who has been working here for about 2 years now, but she's spent most of the time working in our branch in China, and has recently returned to NZ to work for us here.

A few other staff members have told me (during our smoko break) that she reads palms and that she is very accurate... and they all say I should let her read my palm...

I spoke to her about it, and she said she senses that I don't trust her ability to read my palm (well duh doesn't take a pshycic (sp) to assume that), and that when I'm ready I should go to her and she'll read my palm...

Now I don't really believe in this sort of thing, but am curious to hear what she has to say...

What do you think? Have you ever had your palm read?

[placidfemme]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue]Seriously, if you grant that she probably knows a heap about you already and are prepared to treat it as fun & not the delphi oracle why not?

I don't think she knows that much about me... she doesn't speak english very well and as mentioned has worked at our China branch most of the time... only the last 2 weeks has she spent in our department... and I've spoken to her maybe... twice (including today's questions about her ability) and thats it...

*is very curious*

I'll let ya'll know how accurate she is if I do it

[Beemer]

My sister talked me into going with her when I was in my 20s and at first I was quite amazed at how right she seemed to be, but then when you think about it, a lot of it was general. She said the guy I was going out with at the time wasn't the right one for me (score one point for that!) but she said I would marry a man who had been married before (but it wouldn't be on the rebound, it would be true love :love: ) and would have four children. Years later I went out with a guy who had two kids and wondered if he was 'the one' but he wasn't. Here I am, many years later, married to a guy who had never been married before, neither of us has kids and we don't plan on having any! She also told me that I was about to undertake a long journey (true - I was flying to Whakatane to drive my parents down to Wellington in their car) and that an older person would die suddenly on that trip. My sister was really freaked out by that and didn't want me to go - but I am one of those people who believes in the good superstitions and just ignores the bad, so I didn't take any notice of either of them. That was in 1986 and my father died of cancer in 2001 and my mother is still going strong.

I think they are a bit like horoscopes - meant to be taken with a grain of salt. Fortune telling of any kind fails to take into account free will - if you were told you were going to have five kids and you didn't like kids, would you have to go ahead and have them because it was your 'fate'? Nah, I wouldn't bother unless you feel like a laugh.

[Paul in NZ]

oooohhhhmmm oooohhhmmm I see something in your future....

You are about to be misled by a well intentioned idiot....

Don't bother! Your future is one of abject poverty as you crave bigger, flasher, faster motorbikes and never quite seem to have enough $$ to get what you need. (or think you need)

[ManDownUnder]

On a related topic...

Why don't the radio show psychics ring YOU and offer help? Why do you have to ring them?

hmmmm??!!??

[feistyredhead]

go for it what have you got to loose except peace of mind and money! :rofl:

[ManDownUnder]

oooohhhhmmm oooohhhmmm I see something in your future....

You are about to be misled by a well intentioned idiot....

Don't bother! Your future is one of abject poverty as you crave bigger, flasher, faster motorbikes and never quite seem to have enough $$ to get what you need. (or think you need)

Bastard... you been looking over my shoulder or summat??? :rofl:

[ManDownUnder]

go for it what have you got to loose except peace of mind and money! :rofl:

Bloody cynic LOLOLOL!!!!! (Welcome aboard!)

[Motu]

If she read my palm she would see I have cracks in my personality and a deep seated obsesion with filth.

The lyrics of a Rod Stewart song explain it best for me - ''The stars in the sky mean nothing,to you,they are a mirror'' - these things have no effect upon us whatsoever....but you can see some interesting reflections of our personality....

A friend of mines father wrote a book on palmistry,he had them printed and he bound them himself....I still have a signed one around somewhere.Anyway,we were sitting around one night with our friend and she read our palms,cause,y'know,her father wrote this book....we were in our mid 20s at the time,we had one baby,she about 4.She said she was going to have some stupid unbelievable amount of kids,and we were going to have a lot too,but nowhere near as many as her...rubbish.She has had 10 kids and we have 4 - I don't know the numbers she said at the time,but it seemed a crazy amount,I think 4 is enough....

[mstriumph]

hmmmm - but your workmates have obviously been chatting to her - and there's probably general chat in the office ..... would be happy to know how you got on if you do it, curiosity gets the better of most of us from time to time!
I don't think she knows that much about me... she doesn't speak english very well and as mentioned has worked at our China branch most of the time... only the last 2 weeks has she spent in our department... and I've spoken to her maybe... twice (including today's questions about her ability) and thats it...

*is very curious*

I'll let ya'll know how accurate she is if I do it

[erik]

Yeah and why do pyshcics have to organise there annual meetings.. why dont they all just "Turn up"?
:laugh:  

[placidfemme]

lol

I won't be paying her for it... Not sure if I'll have it done...

Another thing how come pshycics don't read the future and buy the winning lotto numbers? I would if I could lol and thats proberly why I can't...

[thehollowmen]

My lil sister has hands with the lifeline and the head and heart lines all fused into one

ya know.. "butterfly effect" type.

:devil2:
Every now and then when I'm visiting and we go to the circus / fair / whatever is on, I'll pay for her to go to a palm reader just to see the look on thier faces.

[placidfemme]

lol thats interesting...

One of our Telemarketers had her palm read, and the chick reading her palm said that her career line was longer than her lifeline...

working from the grave? lol she also told her she'd die before she was 40 if she didn't quit smoking... haha scare tatics there I think...

[Str8 Jacket]

Sorry, but I dont believe in this kinda crap . . . When I was younger I was told by a "renowned" (sp?) physcic to never get on a motorbike as that is how I am going to die, he also told me that Id be married by 25 and have 1 kid . . . well that was crap! And as far as I know they are not supposed to tell you how you (or how they think) will die.

[WRT]

I have had my cards read before, and it was actually pretty accurate. It was done by someone who at the time I had only just met, and now is a really good friend, and talking to her about it now she says that it works best with someone who she doesn't know very well, otherwise her own feelings about the subject have an influence.

Basically, she never said any specifics, no dates, ages, or anything like that. But she did accurately predict an upcoming job offer, and a breif romantic interest (her description of the girl was frighteningly accurate), and also her analysis of my past was pretty on the nail.

I put myself as being a bit of a skeptic, I dont believe any of the tv shows about psychics, nor do I believe in horoscopes, etc. And I definately do not advocate living your life based on someone else's interpretion of either a deck of cards (no matter how pretty the pics on them) or a bunch of lines on your palm. Having said that tho, if its being done for free, then why not check it out? Its good for a laugh if nothing else.

[Sniper]

Nah, Im not into leeting others touch my hand and tell me my destiny. I can choose it for myself me thinks

[placidfemme]

Yeah I'm leaning more towards not getting my palm read (because my granny said so lol), and also I believe that my future is what I make it, not what someone else says it will be... I like to think that I'm in control... most of the time anyway lol

[MSTRS]

It's gotta be like having a post-hypnotic suggestion. Palmist 'tells' you what will happen & subconsiously you make sure it does. Treat is as fun, don't take it on board or don't bother.

[Hitcher]

Puh-lease. How does your palm know what the rest of your life holds in store? What happens if you lose a hand or an arm in an accident? What about that guy who had an arm transplant?

Next you'll be telling me that that crazy bint on "Dare to believe" really can talk with dead people...

[Str8 Jacket]

It's gotta be like having a post-hypnotic suggestion. Palmist 'tells' you what will happen & subconsiously you make sure it does. Treat is as fun, don't take it on board or don't bother.


Your soo right. I know a few people that reguarly see phychics and are always like, "this is going to happen" and "he is the rite person", blah blah. Then they wonder why their perfect dream world goes wrong. Im sick of hearing, "that wasn't spossed to happen, the physchic said something different, I just don't understand" :weird:
At the end of the day no one really knows what path their life will take, anything can and probably will happen :yes:

[placidfemme]

Next you'll be telling me that that crazy bint on "Dare to believe" really can talk with dead people...

Thats a load of crap... I watched about 5 minutes of that program recently... and she was going on about how the dead mother was with the daughter in her new car... dead people don't just hang around...

Depending on what you believe... but I believe that once someone dies they don't go straigth to hell or heaven, they go and wait in the bossum (sp) of Abraham for when Jesus returns and does Judgment day kinda thing...

Zed will proberly be able to explain that better then I can... but thats what I believe... there's no-one dead hanging around...

I believe in ghosts/demons or spirits, but I don't believe they are dead people hanging around...

[Paul in NZ]

Puh-lease. How does your palm know what the rest of your life holds in store?

I dunno. I remember having a chick read my palm at a party once years ago. She took one look at my mitts and said - "Jeeze you are a wanker" and I said (snatching my hand back) "How could you tell?"

So you never know

[MSTRS]

... there's no-one dead hanging around...

That'll explain why palmists don't get sued when the 'you will live a long and fruitful life' snuffs it a week later :devil2: :rofl:

[Wolf]

They did a great program on how the professionals perform a lot of the "psychic" readings and one trick they showed was how they had an accomplice in the queue waiting to go to the show and he engaged one of the others in conversation and learned that the person wanted to get in contact with her grandmother and got names and details - funnily enough, that woman was one of the ones that the "spirits chose" and the psychic had a lot of accurate info to impart.

There are other tricks - if I were to select a person of my age at random from an audience I would say that there is a woman in spirit hovering near them, "I'm getting... your grandmother" (pretty safe bet with someone my age at least one grandmother would be dead...) the professionals study trends with names and choose names common for certain ages of person - it's pretty much guaranteed that an older person would respond to "I'm getting a name.. George. You know a George." Likewise Harry/Harold/Henry. Ad to that some vague things like "concerned about money (unless your target is wearing an Armani suit, this is another safe bet) (s)he loves you (always nice to hear).

Would love to get picked on by one of the accomplices and feed them a line of shit (yep, I'm hoping to hear from my Uncle Pete who died recently..) and then play along with the "psychic".

The radio ones I've heard are very vague and play safe bets a lot, also, if you listen, the person they're talking to usually volunteers a lot of stuff. "Yep, I know a Harry, he's my Uncle, he died six years ago" "yes, well he's here now and he wants you to know he's watching over you." or "Yep I know a Harry, he's my brother, he lives in Porirua" "Well your mother is concerned about him, she's mentioning his name." "Well Harry was always getting in trouble" "Yes, I'm getting that, she's concerned for his well being, wants you to make sure he's all right." Jeez - pretty easy stuff there.

And that's before you get into the fact that Jack was synonymous with John which is a common name - who on this site does not know a "John"? Common names, safe bets and being able to listen, read between the lines and make reasonable assumptions - all stock in trade.

[pyrocam]

dont see a palm reader.
see Ernie.
he will show you the way

[Wolf]

Depending on what you believe... but I believe that once someone dies they don't go straigth to hell or heaven, they go and wait in the bossum (sp) of Abraham for when Jesus returns and does Judgment day kinda thing...
Ah, someone who reads their Bible. Never could understand Christians who say "Oh, so-and-so is in Heaven with God, now." I mean, I'm a pagan and I know enough about the Bible to know that there's supposed to be a Judgement Day when the living and the dead are all called to be judged and no one (no one brought up in the Christian faith, anyway) goes into Heaven or Hell until after that point.

Doesn't apply to me, of course, I get to go to Tir n'an Og when I die - no queueing, no waiting around for some kind of Judgement.

I believe we all get what we expect based on our beliefs, that all Gods and Goddesses exist and we choose whom we follow and make our personal covenants with them. The world's a big enough place for us all and without diversity we'd be a pretty sad lot.

As to the "ghosts and spirits" things, I've sensed and seen enough to be pretty open minded - I think there is the possibility for those not hieing off to Tir n'an Og, Valhalla, the Bosom of Abraham or wherever to be lurking around in "spirit form" but I don't think they spend their time helping people make a career out of talking to spirits.

[placidfemme]

Ah, someone who reads their Bible. Never could understand Christians who say "Oh, so-and-so is in Heaven with God, now." I mean, I'm a pagan and I know enough about the Bible to know that there's supposed to be a Judgement Day when the living and the dead are all called to be judged and no one (no one brought up in the Christian faith, anyway) goes into Heaven or Hell until after that point.

Doesn't apply to me, of course, I get to go to Tir n'an Og when I die - no queueing, no waiting around for some kind of Judgement.

I believe we all get what we expect based on our beliefs, that all Gods and Goddesses exist and we choose whom we follow and make our personal covenants with them. The world's a big enough place for us all and without diversity we'd be a pretty sad lot.

As to the "ghosts and spirits" things, I've sensed and seen enough to be pretty open minded - I think there is the possibility for those not hieing off to Tir n'an Og, Valhalla, the Bosom of Abraham or wherever to be lurking around in "spirit form" but I don't think they spend their time helping people make a career out of talking to spirits.

Way off topic here... but when you mentioned


I believe we all get what we expect based on our beliefs, that all Gods and Goddesses exist and we choose whom we follow and make our personal covenants with them. The world's a big enough place for us all and without diversity we'd be a pretty sad lot.

I have a theory along those lines too... What if there is no right or wrong God/religion/belief?

If you look at all those different beliefs they are all along similar lines... which means that more than half of the worlds population are going to hell... BUT what if it doesn't matter which belief you have, but the amount of faith you have in that belief that makes the difference? (lol maybe we should save this discussion for the Religious thread in pointless drivel)

Anyway...

Just found out that another of our Telemarketers (her name is Rav) reads palms...

The way she reads them is based on her Indian religion (not sure which one) so I thought I'd get her to read my palms and then I'll get Grace (the Asian lady) to read my palms and compare the two readings...

So anyway... Rav told me... (take into consideration that Rav knows me well... she's meet Sam and we've been working together for about 2 years)

~That I'm not good at saving money (true)
~That if I ever decide to start my own business I will not succeed (sp)
~But I will succeed if I continue to work for other people
~That I will not have any big career changes throughout my life (as in staying in office work until I retire)
~She also said I will have a daughter first, then a son... or perhaps twins, but the girl will be first (given that she knows twins run in my family)
~She also said all my relationships past and future will be "love" relationships (take into consideration that she is an Indian, and her marraige was an arranged marraige... just so you know what she means by that... but again thats a given because I'm not Indian so no-one can arrainge a marraige for me)
~She senses that I make all the decisions in the relationship (true... but then again she does know Sam and I)
~She said that no matter what happens in the future I will always have a support system, be it family or friends (well thats a given unless I become a P addict and everyone disowns me)
~She said that I will (or have) recieve property from a family member.. (which isn't true and I don't see it being true... as the family I have here in NZ don't own homes)

She didn't tell me anything about when I might die or how. She didn't say I'd be rich... but she didn't say I would be poor either...

She said a bunch of other things which were all true, but could be brought down to the fact that she knows me. She didn't tell me anything I didn't know already really, but she was spot on most of the time. I didn't volunteer any information (I told her when she started that I was going to keep quiet and listen and then at the end tell her if she was right or not).

Now I'll just wait for Grace to come to work and get her to read my palms and see what she has to say... which should be interesting because Grace doesn't know about my sexuality (maybe theres a man in my future LOL)

[MSTRS]

our Telemarketers (her name is Rav) ...


Tell her NOT TO RING ME AGAIN. It's very invasive and I'm close to getting abusive. BTW this is NOT A PT

[placidfemme]

We don't call Napier

[Edit] and for reference... I know about 5 Rav's and I'm sure theres a lot more and besides if you are being hassled by telemarketers, then maybe you should ask them to remove you from thier database and they won't call again... being rude to a TM just makes them mark you as a call back so you get a lot more calls as revenge for being rude... (not a dig at you... but I've worked at a few call centres and they all do that)

[Wolf]

if you are being hassled by telemarketers, then maybe you should ask them to remove you from thier database and they won't call again...)
Yep. I just politely say "please remove me from your call list" if the same company calls back I then say "I requested that I be removed from your list, why are you still calling me?" They normally oblige by never calling back.

[placidfemme]

Yep. I just politely say "please remove me from your call list" if the same company calls back I then say "I requested that I be removed from your list, why are you still calling me?" They normally oblige by never calling back.

Yeah well thats what we try and do... we do database removals on a daily basis (usually only about 4 or so a day... out of maybe 2000+ calls). I sometimes cover for our teamleaders when they can't be assed coming to work, and a lot of people don't actually realise how badly TM's get abused...

The best is people who call up and spurt off into some angry rant, swearing and cursing and throwing every insult in the world at you... and then demand to be taken off the database... then hang up... without leaving a name or number... lol idiots... then they wonder why they get called again...

when I have to deal with angry clients and they all abusive at me, I simply say "I talked to you with curtisy (sp) and you've been nothing but abusive... when you can talk to me without using foul (fowl?) language and abuse feel free to call back... have a good day" *click*

I think the thing that a lot of people don't understand is that to them this is an "original" complaint, to the TM's and such it's something they get on a daily basis, so your (in general... not anyone in particular) getting all angry means nothing to them... they just shrug it off or get clever back, end the call and your still all angry and within 2 seconds they've forgotten about you...

[zadok]

Depending on what you believe... but I believe that once someone dies they don't go straigth to hell or heaven, they go and wait in the bossum (sp) of Abraham for when Jesus returns and does Judgment day kinda thing...

Zed will proberly be able to explain that better then I can... but thats what I believe... there's no-one dead hanging around...

I believe in ghosts/demons or spirits, but I don't believe they are dead people hanging around...
Right on. John 3: "And no man hath ascended to Heaven..."
1 Thess. 4: 13-18 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep (have died)...and the dead in Christ shall rise first..."

[Eurygnomes]

Ha ha ha...Telemarketing, psychics and religion - all in one thread. PF, you do get the most interesting topics up and running girl!

My thoughts:

Telemarketing sucks!! I did it for ages (in uni) as it's good money (crap job) for easyish hours. First for charity companies and then selling 'space' for exhibitions. Because I was 'good' at getting people hooked in, I got to make the calls to the hard places (Auckland/Wellington) whereas my workmates got to make calls to softer areas (Rotorua/New Plymouth etc). Pah! Manager wanted me to get a raise, but senior management wouldn't let me because they knew it was a 'sideline' of mine - not my career!

Palmreading/Psychicicity (word existence)

I've had my palm read, my cards done and my stars read too (birth chart). My palm reading was blah. Only cost $5 though - so why not? Was told that I wouldn't feel like life had started for me till I was well out of Palmerston North (doesn't take spiritual assistance to know that!). My headline is VERY split (ie. a 1cm gap in it) which he said meant that I will change the course of my life dramatically at some point. I'll have two children. That's about all I can remember. So far - some of it's true...
Cards...can't really remember much of that (if you do get these done, it helps to take a tape recorder).
Stars...CAN remember most of that. Admittedly it (the chart) was read by my aunty (who knows a lot about me) but she did take me through the steps she uses to CREATE the chart, and they seem valid. Then she draws patterns between particular houses/positions and I ended up with a really unusual pattern - a star of david and two squares (essentially, open right angles) bracketing the star. She was all, "wow...I knew you were special hon, but not THIS special" about it. And she told me of things that she COULDN'T know about (since she's not the family favourite, and she's never lived in teh same country as me!) including personality traits that were held in check pretty well back then (so weren't 'obvious' to others). She doesn't try to predict the future, more how you'll deal with it in the context of YOU.

God/The Aftermath
I dont' want to risk upsetting anyone, so I won't expound on this, I'll be facetious instead. If, as Wolf suggests, we all get to go where we expect to go, then Bacchus/Dionysus has a friend/follower in me! :) Less facetiously, I do actually wonder about reincarnation...but that's a whole 'nother thread.

ALSO:
I have premonitions. I dream a sequence of events with particular (often faceless at the time) people. Within 12 months of these extraordinarly vivid (given the faceless nature of my dream-companions) dreams, the situation arises, and I know EXACTLY what the person (now WITH a face - thankfully) will say, who will lift their glass to their mouth (lots of my premonitions are to do with sitting around a table for some reason) and what will happen next. I always realise when I wake up that I've had one, and I try to remember sufficient details and tell someone immediately - but they're often not around when the ACTUAL situation occurs. I wish I could tap into this more vividly (for instance, dream myself onto a super yacht purchased with the winning lottery ticket that I miraculously find in my pocket) and use it to 'predict' instead of pre-see...but alas...not yet.

*phew* Long post - apologies.

[placidfemme]

Right on. John 3: "And no man hath ascended to Heaven..."
1 Thess. 4: 13-18 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep (have died)...and the dead in Christ shall rise first..."

Yeah thats the one! So many people say to me about my mom (passed away). "She's in heaven watching over you" and I just say thanks (cause I know they mean well), but so many people think it's a simple as... ok you die you go to heaven/hell which isn't the case...

And because they (the deceased) are in the bossum (sp) of Abraham, they can't just leave (in spirit form or whatever) and wonder the earth... those so called "spirits" as far as I'm concerned are more like demons or angels of satan... they might not seem to be bad... but they're not of God so what else could they be?

[placidfemme]

Ha ha ha...Telemarketing, psychics and religion - all in one thread. PF, you do get the most interesting topics up and running girl!


lol I know :) It's interesting though... nice to talk about a range of things

[mstriumph]

Also way off topic ... but as that seems to be allowed [well, no-one else got pinged for it lol] ....
my personal belief that if the gods hadn't existed someone would have had to invent them anyway because they are soooo useful [to blame, or to praise] -if there were no gods, well, each of us would be totally responsible for ourselves ...... how awful would THAT be? :wait:
Way off topic here... but when you mentioned



I have a theory along those lines too... What if there is no right or wrong God/religion/belief?

[Wolf]

And because they (the deceased) are in the bossum (sp) of Abraham, they can't just leave (in spirit form or whatever) and wonder the earth... those so called "spirits" as far as I'm concerned are more like demons or angels of satan... they might not seem to be bad... but they're not of God so what else could they be?
Would you say all adherents of all different faiths reside in the Bosom of Abraham after death, or just Christians? If only Christians, then what do you believe happens to the huge number of non-christians who die? Both adherents of other faiths and non-believers. If everyone, I wonder how all the non-christians feel about being consigned to this "waiting place" in the Bosom of Abraham along with all these other people?

Not flaming or deriding your beliefs, just asking your viewpoint (which is why I'm glad it's here not in the religious ravings thread).

I cannot recall the exact scriptures, but according to some interpretations of the the Bible, when you die, you die. You go to the grave. At Judgement Day, God resurrects the Faithful and they ascend to Heaven along with those Faithful living on Earth at the time. The non-believers are not resurrected but remain dead - "The wages of sin is death"

[mstriumph]

... also, since we are on [or off] the topic . :confused: .. I'm with Wolf - not a christian but familiar with the bible ...... and i often wondered, as a [very fair-minded] child, OK so all the dead are resting in Abraham's bosom, but whose bosom is HE was resting in, poor bloke? [and 'god' is not an acceptable answer because then all the other dead would be, too?] :no:

[placidfemme]

Would you say all adherents of all different faiths reside in the Bosom of Abraham after death, or just Christians? If only Christians, then what do you believe happens to the huge number of non-christians who die? Both adherents of other faiths and non-believers. If everyone, I wonder how all the non-christians feel about being consigned to this "waiting place" in the Bosom of Abraham along with all these other people?

Not flaming or deriding your beliefs, just asking your viewpoint (which is why I'm glad it's here not in the religious ravings thread).

I cannot recall the exact scriptures, but according to some interpretations of the the Bible, when you die, you die. You go to the grave. At Judgement Day, God resurrects the Faithful and they ascend to Heaven along with those Faithful living on Earth at the time. The non-believers are not resurrected but remain dead - "The wages of sin is death"

huh... good point... I never really thought of that...

Ok I'm looking at this from a Christian point of veiw... I just assumed that everyone went to the bossum of Abraham... I didn't realise that only christians went there...

But lets say that only christians went there... then I would assume that those who weren't christians (or the right type of christian... whichever type that would be) would just be dead... or in some other place... then that might make it possible for those who are dead... and not at the bossum of Abraham... could possibly wonder the earth... in which case that would be rather upsetting to the living family members looking for answers (through people who talk to the dead) because that would mean that if someone spoke to your dead family member or friend... then you friend/family member is actually going to hell... is that how it would work?

this is so confusing... lol where is Zed?

So where do the people (spirits) go if not to the bossum of Abraham?

[placidfemme]

... also, since we are on [or off] the topic . :confused: .. I'm with Wolf - not a christian but familiar with the bible ...... and i often wondered, as a [very fair-minded] child, OK so all the dead are resting in Abraham's bosom, but whose bosom is HE was resting in, poor bloke? [and 'god' is not an acceptable answer because then all the other dead would be, too?] :no:

I think with that, the whole bossum of Abraham thing only came into play after the whole Jesus period... because the system (lets just call it that) changed after Jesus was around... before Jesus you only had to believe in God and listen to his rules... then after Jesus it changed to believing in Jesus, and the way to heaven is only through him...

So it might be safe to say that before Jesus, when people died they did simply go to heaven/hell and there was no waiting...

But now that Jesus is in the picture... people have a lot more options and freedom... therefore God created the waiting place... because the end is "soon"

[Hitcher]

Shouldn't this conversation be being had on the Scottish thread?

[bungbung]

Limburg Hopsmacker, but it needs to be very cold

[placidfemme]

*is confused now*

[mstriumph]

..... join the club! :unsure:

*is confused now*

[Wolf]

huh... good point... I never really thought of that...

Ok I'm looking at this from a Christian point of veiw... I just assumed that everyone went to the bossum of Abraham... I didn't realise that only christians went there...
I can't really imagine all the Buddhists, Shinto, Asatruar, Celtic Pagans (such as myself), Hindis, Sikhs, atheists etc all turning up there. It would make more sense to me that Christians, "good" or "bad" would turn up there for later processing.


But lets say that only christians went there... then I would assume that those who weren't christians (or the right type of christian... whichever type that would be) would just be dead... or in some other place... then that might make it possible for those who are dead... and not at the bossum of Abraham... could possibly wonder the earth... in which case that would be rather upsetting to the living family members looking for answers (through people who talk to the dead) because that would mean that if someone spoke to your dead family member or friend... then you friend/family member is actually going to hell... is that how it would work?

That depends on how you interpret the Bible and whether you view Hell as a place of eternal punishment or merely eternal death (i.e. not being ressurrected and taken to Heaven), in either case, surely that would only apply to those who purport to be Christian but fall short - those would either be permanently dead and never going to be ressurrected or in the Bosom of Abraham waiting for Judgement Day. Those who have not made a covenant with Christ/Jehovah/YHVH would presumeably have different "arrangements"...


So where do the people (spirits) go if not to the bossum of Abraham?
I believe (and as this is a belief I am not saying this is how it really is or that other people's beliefs are wrong) that they go wherever their particular belief says they'll go. That would mean the spirit of someone who was an atheist should dissipate into nothingness as that is what they believe - otherwise they'd find themselves in "the afterlife" feeling like a "right bunch of charlies" (thank you Rowan Atkinson), it would mean that the adherents of other faiths would go to whatever afterlife they believed in (Tir n'an Og, Land of the Ever Young, for me).

Would some become "ghosts" tied to a place on this Earth but no longer of it? Possibly. Not sure of why, wouldn't be too keen to find out. If so, would they then be "lost" unable to find a way to a suitable "otherworld", who knows. Maybe not. Maybe they're just there until they realise they're dead and then move on (popular notion in ghost stories is that the deceased doesn't realise they've died and doesn't move on when they should.)

I don't think that many people on this planet would have a genuine ability to talk to or receive messages from deceased people (if anyone does at all) - certainly not was many as claim to have that ability.

[Wolf]

Shouldn't this conversation be being had on the Scottish thread?
Nope, this is reasoned, calm and intelligent discourse (except for my bits), not "ravings" :devil2:

[placidfemme]

That depends on how you interpret the Bible and whether you view Hell as a place of eternal punishment or merely eternal death (i.e. not being ressurrected and taken to Heaven), in either case, surely that would only apply to those who purport to be Christian but fall short - those would either be permanently dead and never going to be ressurrected or in the Bosom of Abraham waiting for Judgement Day. Those who have not made a covenant with Christ/Jehovah/YHVH would presumeably have different "arrangements"...

Hmmm.. well in that sense I think the bible has no grey area on the subject... you either go to heaven or hell... (where you wait in the meantime we havn't figured out as of yet lol). Also in the bible it describes hell as a place with lots of gnashing of teeth and pain and stuff (not sure of the exact wording)... so in that sense I don't think hell is just a nothingness... where you just cease to exist... and if that is the case... then hell doesn't seem so bad... if your dead your not of this world anyway so you won't miss it... you won't even know your dead... so it wouldn't matter... so for God to have that "fear factor" hell has to be a bad place... not just a nothingness


I believe (and as this is a belief I am not saying this is how it really is or that other people's beliefs are wrong) that they go wherever their particular belief says they'll go. That would mean the spirit of someone who was an atheist should dissipate into nothingness as that is what they believe - otherwise they'd find themselves in "the afterlife" feeling like a "right bunch of charlies" (thank you Rowan Atkinson), it would mean that the adherents of other faiths would go to whatever afterlife they believed in (Tir n'an Og, Land of the Ever Young, for me).

Yeah... well this is where the confusion comes in... as you said it would really depend on each persons personal beliefs. So for you... you are going to "Tir n'an Og, Land of the Ever Young" (which I've never heard of before so thats interesting :)) From a Christian point of veiw (not nesseccerily (sp) something I agree with)... christians = heaven ..... all other religions = hell

But I agree with you... I don't think that anyone can talk with the dead either... the so called "ghosts and stuff" as mentioned earlier... in my opinion are demons (not as bad as it sounds) or spirits (where from I dunno) but I don't think they are the actual people they look like... just like an impersonator (sp)

I think the way this topic is going its going to get a lot more complicated... we've gone from a christian point of view to a number of different religions and beliefs which opens up a lot more options to choose from as far as answers go...

[zadok]

I cannot recall the exact scriptures, but according to some interpretations of the the Bible, when you die, you die. You go to the grave. At Judgement Day, God resurrects the Faithful and they ascend to Heaven along with those Faithful living on Earth at the time. The non-believers are not resurrected but remain dead - "The wages of sin is death"
Goes something like this: Revelation 20: 12-15 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God......And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (the grave) delivered up the dead which were in them...."

[Hitcher]

Nope, this is reasoned, calm and intelligent discourse (except for my bits), not "ravings"
The Scottish Thread has its moments too...

[Ixion]

.. From a Christian point of veiw (not nesseccerily (sp) something I agree with)... christians = heaven ..... all other religions = hell

..

Not necessarily.There is a doctine called, I think , Baptism of the Holy Ghost ("of " not "with") . This , coupled with another doctrine, the Treasury of Merit, argues that Christ's Grace is so great that it serves to save all men who do not reject His grace. Since the "heathens" before His coming had had no chance to accept or reject Him, they were not condemned. There was an enormous amount of discussion about this in the Middle Ages, and even now the Church of Rome goes quite deeply into it.

[placidfemme]

Not necessarily.There is a doctine called, I think , Baptism of the Holy Ghost ("of " not "with") . This , coupled with another doctrine, the Treasury of Merit, argues that Christ's Grace is so great that it serves to save all men who do not reject His grace. Since the "heathens" before His coming had had no chance to accept or reject Him, they were not condemned. There was an enormous amount of discussion about this in the Middle Ages, and even now the Church of Rome goes quite deeply into it.

Just so I understand what your saying.... by that do you mean if you have not denounced God/Jesus then you can still go to heaven? Even if you don't worship him or do anything christian-like?

[zadok]

For those interested in Ixion's comment go to 'religious ravings' for an explanation. Give me a few minutes to get my thoughts together and fingers tapping.

[Zed]

I believe that Palm reading is in the same boat as Tarrot Cards, Ouija Board, channeling, black magic, meditation, etc, etc...where a person free-willingly invites another 'spirit' to possess them enabling them to have supernatural power and knowledge, albiet temporarily. I say don't mess with it Placid, you would be dabbling in the dangerous unknown! :no:

Btw, you can believe what you want to believe about death, but if you basis it on the Bible then according to 2 Cori 5:8 "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". The Christian in the NT is said to be "with the Lord" as soon as his/her body dies. The OT was different however, because the OT saints went to a place of rest called 'Abraham's bosom' in Luke 16:22, and they remained there until Jesus Christ died on the cross at Calvary and went down there to retrieve them and take them up to Heaven where they are now. Read Matt 12:40; Eph 4:7-10; Matt 27:51-53. The teaching of Purgatory or a place the soul goes after death which is *in between* Heaven and Hell, is not Biblical and not believed by the 'Christian' Churches.

[zadok]

Right on ZED :Punk:

[placidfemme]

Anyway...

Just found out that another of our Telemarketers (her name is Rav) reads palms...

The way she reads them is based on her Indian religion (not sure which one) so I thought I'd get her to read my palms and then I'll get Grace (the Asian lady) to read my palms and compare the two readings...

So anyway... Rav told me... (take into consideration that Rav knows me well... she's meet Sam and we've been working together for about 2 years)

~That I'm not good at saving money (true)
~That if I ever decide to start my own business I will not succeed (sp)
~But I will succeed if I continue to work for other people
~That I will not have any big career changes throughout my life (as in staying in office work until I retire)
~She also said I will have a daughter first, then a son... or perhaps twins, but the girl will be first (given that she knows twins run in my family)
~She also said all my relationships past and future will be "love" relationships (take into consideration that she is an Indian, and her marraige was an arranged marraige... just so you know what she means by that... but again thats a given because I'm not Indian so no-one can arrainge a marraige for me)
~She senses that I make all the decisions in the relationship (true... but then again she does know Sam and I)
~She said that no matter what happens in the future I will always have a support system, be it family or friends (well thats a given unless I become a P addict and everyone disowns me)
~She said that I will (or have) recieve property from a family member.. (which isn't true and I don't see it being true... as the family I have here in NZ don't own homes)

She didn't tell me anything about when I might die or how. She didn't say I'd be rich... but she didn't say I would be poor either...

She said a bunch of other things which were all true, but could be brought down to the fact that she knows me. She didn't tell me anything I didn't know already really, but she was spot on most of the time. I didn't volunteer any information (I told her when she started that I was going to keep quiet and listen and then at the end tell her if she was right or not).

Now I'll just wait for Grace to come to work and get her to read my palms and see what she has to say... which should be interesting because Grace doesn't know about my sexuality (maybe theres a man in my future LOL)

Ok well Grace just read my palms...

And she was a lot less descriptive and accurate than Rav...

She said:

~That my career is good (no details or anything just that my career is good)
~She said both my hands are the same (yep 4 fingers and a thumb on each)
~She said I had a bad childhood with hardships (I don't agree with that, I had the best mother in the world and every family has hardships but that didn't stop us from being happy)
~She didn't peg my sexuality right away... went on some rant about my partner and refered to my partner as a "him" and "he" for about 2 minutes... then paused and asked me directly if I was gay... so of course I said yes..
~She said in the future I will fall in love with a man (had to see that one comig)
~she said I need to consider a career change (different to what Rav said and contradictory to what she said earlier)
~She said I will live until I'm old
~She also said I only have one serious injury in my future... more than likely from a car accident (better than a motorcycle accident)
~She said that the "man" I fall in love with will be rich (any rich men on here? I might love you :love: )
~She said I would love only one person 100% but I won't have them (contradicts what she said about my rich husband)
~She also said I will not be rich (contradiction from my rich hubby again)

weird :weird:

[placidfemme]

I believe that Palm reading is in the same boat as Tarrot Cards, Ouija Board, channeling, black magic, meditation, etc, etc...where a person free-willingly invites another 'spirit' to possess them enabling them to have supernatural power and knowledge, albiet temporarily. I say don't mess with it Placid, you would be dabbling in the dangerous unknown! :no:

Btw, you can believe what you want to believe about death, but if you basis it on the Bible then according to 2 Cori 5:8 "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". The Christian in the NT is said to be "with the Lord" as soon as his/her body dies. The OT was different however, because the OT saints went to a place of rest called 'Abraham's bosom' in Luke 16:22, and they remained there until Jesus Christ died on the cross at Calvary and went down there to retrieve them and take them up to Heaven where they are now. Read Matt 12:40; Eph 4:7-10; Matt 27:51-53. The teaching of Purgatory or a place the soul goes after death which is *in between* Heaven and Hell, is not Biblical and not believed by the 'Christian' Churches.

Thank you Zed :)

*sorry already did the palm readings... both were rubbish*

So just to get this right...

In the OT when you died you went to the bosum of Abraham... then in after Jesus died and lived again he collected the dead... and from then onwards the dead go straight to heaven or hell?

So when people say "such and such are watching you from heaven" it could possibly be true?

[Wolf]

...according to 2 Cori 5:8 "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". The Christian in the NT is said to be "with the Lord" as soon as his/her body dies. The OT was different however, because the OT saints went to a place of rest called 'Abraham's bosom' in Luke 16:22, and they remained there until Jesus Christ died on the cross at Calvary and went down there to retrieve them and take them up to Heaven where they are now. Read Matt 12:40; Eph 4:7-10; Matt 27:51-53. The teaching of Purgatory or a place the soul goes after death which is *in between* Heaven and Hell, is not Biblical and not believed by the 'Christian' Churches.
Then where does "Judgement Day" come into it in your view? My understanding is that there is to be a "day of reckoning" in which those destined for Heaven and Hell are sorted out. That is hardly do-able if the ones destined for Heaven and Hell have already gone there.
Placidfemme's take on no one going to either until Judgement Day is not an uncommon view and there are scriptures to support it in the Bible, just as the scriptures you quoted support a differnt view. I also know of two churches based on the Bible and the teachings of Christ (by my definition "Christian") who hold the no one goes to Heaven/Hell except after Judgement Day as core tenets of their faith.

You are, of course, entitled to disagree with them. I'm not saying they are right (not qualified to as a pagan) but stating what they believe and why they believe it. Regrettably, my notes are buried in a box of my books in storage so I can't dig them out and post the scriptures they quote to support their view.

[zadok]

Then where does "Judgement Day" come into it in your view? My understanding is that there is to be a "day of reckoning" in which those destined for Heaven and Hell are sorted out. That is hardly do-able if the ones destined for Heaven and Hell have already gone there.
See an earlier response: Revelation 20: 12-15 might help.

[Wolf]

See an earlier response: Revelation 20: 12-15 might help.
But according to Zed, they are not in the grave or the sea, they are in Heaven already.

[SPman]

We all believe what we want to believe

So, if we're wrong, its our own fault.

[SPman]

Limburg Hopsmacker, but it needs to be very cold
Good, is it?
Found a crate of Summer Ale last week - - -mmmmmmm

[Hitcher]

Hmmmmm. Beer...

[zadok]

But according to Zed, they are not in the grave or the sea, they are in Heaven already.
Did he say that? I missed it. I didn't think he did. No ones gone to heaven yet.

[Wolf]

We all believe what we want to believe

So, if we're wrong, its our own fault.
Yep. (I know, 10 characters...)

[Skyryder]

Palmists, Tarot readers, Crystal gazers, New Age mumbo jumbo, oh and prophets no matter what their calling; all a load of cods wallop. And the Book of Revelation is in there to.

[Zed]

Then where does "Judgement Day" come into it in your view?I believe that every person who dies will *immediately* face God their Maker in a personal, individual judgment (Heb 9:27).

Without getting too deep into it the Bible also speaks of two separate judgments for the righteous (believers) and the unrighteous (non-believers). The righteous judgment is called "the judgment seat of Christ" (2 Cori 5:10) and the unrighteous judgment is the one that Zadok referred to previously from the book of Revelation.


I also know of two churches based on the Bible and the teachings of Christ (by my definition "Christian") who hold the no one goes to Heaven/Hell except after Judgement Day as core tenets of their faith.No I don't agree with them Wolf, that is a contradiction to the word of God. When you die you stand before God and he either admits you into heaven to be with Him or he sends you to hell to be separated from Him - it's that simple.

Example of what happens to the believer when he dies (is absent from the body):
2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Example of what happens to the non-believer when he dies:
Luke 16:22-23 ...the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

[Wolf]

I believe that every person who dies will *immediately* face God their Maker in a personal, individual judgment (Heb 9:27).

Without getting too deep into it the Bible also speaks of two separate judgments for the righteous (believers) and the unrighteous (non-believers). The righteous judgment is called "the judgment seat of Christ" (2 Cori 5:10) and the unrighteous judgment is the one that Zadok referred to previously from the book of Revelation.
Thank you for clearing that up. Was puzzled.

[Zed]

Thank you for clearing that up. Was puzzled.WOW Mr Wolf, that would have to be the absolute shortest post I have ever seen from you!! :eek:

You're welcome.

[NordieBoy]

Well I'm reading "With the Lightnings" on my Palm Tungsten E at the moment...

:D

[Wolf]

WOW Mr Wolf, that would have to be the absolute shortest post I have ever seen from you!! :eek:

You're welcome.
I aim to... surprise. :rofl:

I was just seeing if brevity is truly the soul of wit - rather than me just being the r-soul of wit.

[placidfemme]

Thank you for clearing that up. Was puzzled.

I second that... Thanks Zed :)

[myvice]

I'm not superstitious caus its bad luck!

Odd deviation from thread, it would take a VERY long time to convince me that Christianity had any redeeming features, but then I view most religions in that light.
If the Christians are right, heaven/hell, I won’t be getting cold!
The other side of this is all of the "I'm a good Christian" people I have met will be in heaven and I'd find that more hellish than any thing else!
I'll stick with karma and my own type of reincarnation, Iv seen too many things not to believe in anything at all.
I like the idea of reincarnation as to learn the lesions and have the experiences we were unable to in this life.
Would like to be reunited with those who have gone on befor us as well.
Maybe after we have done every thing we were meant to do, we end up in Valhalla or (put your own preference here) for the big eternal piss up?
On that note, "every thing we were meant to do" Why were we meant to do it? For what reason? 42?
Only one way to find out and I hope that’s a LONG way off for all of us!

Had my fortune told once, I was told my father (who I hadn’t met yet) was dead.
He's very mobile for a dead guy!

Your destiny may be written but the path you take is your own.

[NC]

I had one tell me that I like men with muscley arms...well I knew that

The rest she got wrong, although she did tell me to watch out for a yellow car while I was on my motorcycle. (didn't have any gear with me at the time)

I beileve 95% of the time

[placidfemme]

I had one tell me that I like men with muscley arms...

muscley arms are sexy

[SARGE]

I think with that, the whole bossum of Abraham thing only came into play after the whole Jesus period... because the system (lets just call it that) changed after Jesus was around... before Jesus you only had to believe in God and listen to his rules... then after Jesus it changed to believing in Jesus, and the way to heaven is only through him...

So it might be safe to say that before Jesus, when people died they did simply go to heaven/hell and there was no waiting...

But now that Jesus is in the picture... people have a lot more options and freedom... therefore God created the waiting place... because the end is "soon"


i dont want to go to heaven.. i won't know anyone there ... :devil2:

[Wolf]

i dont want to go to heaven.. i won't know anyone there ... :devil2:
Two great friends died together in a car crash, one was sent to Heaven, the other to Hell. The one in Hell was catching up with all his drinking buddies who'd died and generally having a party of it.

One day the Devil informs him that his buddy in Heaven has requested a meeting with him and that it had been approved so he is taken to a place where his friend is waiting. They exchange warm greetings and the guy who's in Hell starts telling his mate how much fun he's been having. "Do you guys have great parties in Heaven?" He asks when he's finished.

"Well," says his friend, "It's rather difficult. You see, there's only God, Jesus and me up there..."