Will Victory ever be a threat to Harley?

[ratusratus]

Ive just been riding over in the USA and saw heaps of Harleys and the occasional Victory
I just cant see it happening.......but ya never know:-)

[Maha]

Victory Motorcycles will never be victorious where thats concerned in the states (or anywhere for that matter) because, harley's are just too common.

[ducatilover]

No, because Harley owners do not buy a superior bike, they buy a badge/image and then argue through gritted teeth that it's a perfect bike, when putting pedals on play-dough would ride better.

[Coolz]

Harleys have been around for over 100 years and are as popular today as ever. They have outlasted many great compeditors...Indian comes to mind...Victory?...I doubt Willie G is losing any sleep over them.

[White trash]

No, because Harley owners do not buy a superior bike, they buy a badge/image and then argue through gritted teeth that it's a perfect bike, when putting pedals on play-dough would ride better.

The same could be said about Ducati owners if we're perfectly honest. That this argument still surfaces amazes me. Harley buyers buy Harleys because they want to buy a Harley. If they wanted a "technically" superior cruiser, they'd buy something else.

[ducatilover]

The same could be said about Ducati owners if we're perfectly honest. That this argument still surfaces amazes me. Harley buyers buy Harleys because they want to buy a Harley. If they wanted a "technically" superior cruiser, they'd buy something else.
Ducati make some pretty shite bikes too, I'd know.

[skippa1]

Ive just been riding over in the USA and saw heaps of Harleys and the occasional Victory
I just cant see it happening.......but ya never know:-)

The only thing thats changed in 80 years is the price :blink:

[Gremlin]

When you buy a Harley you're not really just buying a bike. You enter a whole family, merchandising etc.

The average rider might discount this, especially in NZ, but certainly not in the USA.

[Big Dave]

No, because Harley owners do not buy a superior bike, they buy a badge/image and then argue through gritted teeth that it's a perfect bike, when putting pedals on play-dough would ride better.


They buy the bikes because they like them.

[lakedaemonian]

Victory is selling a motorcycle.

Harley-Davidson is selling a lifestyle and membership in a community......your ticket in just happens to be the bike.

And that's where most of the other brands either fail, or attempt to emulate Harley-Davidson and follow then down the track they cut.

Harley-Davidson was/is an opportunity for someone out of the general public to be a socially acceptable "black sheep" and ride a bit different from the herd.

Within the motorcycling community in many places(as well as here in NZ) Harley-Davidson IS the herd with quite significant market share....so it results in upstarts like Victory getting the odd bike on the road, but the odds of them achieving any kind of scale against HD is quite slim.

One of the most cheeky things I've ever seen was Indian Motorcycles parking up in front of the convention center where Harley was having their dealer meeting a few years ago to solicit dealers.

It was quite cheeky and smelled of desperation.

Just look at Ferrari....they make some hot cars.....but it's possible to build cars that are better, better looking, and cheaper.....but the odds of them gaining traction against the Ferrari Machine is approaching absolute zero in my lifetime.

[Big Dave]

And there are quite a lot of people who just buy the bike and don't 'embrace the lifestyle' or want to be part of a commumity.

They just treat them as nice bikes and often own other brands/types of bike as well.

[skippa1]

And there are quite a lot of people who just buy the bike and don't 'embrace the lifestyle' or want to be part of a commumity.

They just treat them as nice bikes and often own other brands/types of bike as well.

yup.....you nailed it :yes:

[Big Dave]

Except for spelling commumity worng.

[ducatilover]

They buy the bikes because they like them.

I'm going to give up being a troll :angry:
I can see why people buy them. Same reason I buy/build what I do, because I can and I want to.

[Big Dave]

I see what you did there.....

[Maha]

When you buy a Harley you're not really just buying a bike. You enter a whole family, merchandising etc.

The average rider might discount this, especially in NZ, but certainly not in the USA.

I have the T-Shirt...:yes:

[Maha]

I'm going to give up being a troll :angry:


One thing that is lost on a harley purchase is, ones humour...:crybaby:

[ducatilover]

One thing that is lost on a harley purchase is, ones humour...:crybaby:

And ability to shave :innocent:

[Maha]

And ability to shave :innocent:

We'll get to the women later....;)

[Big Dave]

I have the T-Shirt...:yes:


Unfortunately it has a 'My Little Pony' motif.

[Maha]

Unfortunately it has a 'My Little Pony' motif.

With tassles as the mane, it looks killer as.

[The Lone Rider]

I will say one thing as I have not read all the rest...


Given Harleys have "always been around" and are "the american motorcycle" and can be picked up for as little as $2000USD second hand and in running condition,

I predict Victory will never gain the same ground. But do they really want to? They market as more of a premium amongst the premium.

Ie... you can have any old American vtwin... or you can have Victory.

[skippa1]

I will say one thing as I have not read all the rest...


Given Harleys have "always been around" and are "the american motorcycle" and can be picked up for as little as $2000USD second hand and in running condition,

I predict Victory will never gain the same ground. But do they really want to? They market as more of a premium amongst the premium.

Ie... you can have any old American vtwin... or you can have Victory.

yup, wel said:yes:

[Zamiam]

I have the T-Shirt...:yes:

PML I've got two!

[GrayWolf]

Harleys have been around for over 100 years and are as popular today as ever. They have outlasted many great compeditors...Indian comes to mind...Victory?...I doubt Willie G is losing any sleep over them.

except Husqvarna and Royal Enfield are both older as manufacturer's. Remember HD has been bailed out a few times by their govt over the years, had they not? HD would be among the 'dead ducks' of marque's. A lot of us old farts will remember the HD's of the late 60's early 70's they were FUCKING terrible heaps of SHITE, if you ever get a chance to ride an AMF era HD? Do it for the experience! it is the EVO engine that made HD 'popular' in the 1980's HD are in serious difficulty for sales, that is a printed fact/statement.. they are looking to 'international' sales to keep them ahead. The V rod was the bike that is/was supposed to attract those looking for a faster/sportier machine, yet in NZ/Aussie? They are not importing the XR1200, which is the best HD produced in My oipinion.
So please dont run away with the idea HD have always been the dogs bollox,,, by rights they should have gone the same way triumph/norton/villiers went in the 70's.


Victory is selling a motorcycle.

Harley-Davidson is selling a lifestyle and membership in a community......your ticket in just happens to be the bike.
Within the motorcycling community in many places(as well as here in NZ) Harley-Davidson IS the herd with quite significant market share....so it results in upstarts like Victory getting the odd bike on the road, but the odds of them achieving any kind of scale against HD is quite slim.

One of the most cheeky things I've ever seen was Indian Motorcycles parking up in front of the convention center where Harley was having their dealer meeting a few years ago to solicit dealers.

It was quite cheeky and smelled of desperation.

Just look at Ferrari....they make some hot cars.....but it's possible to build cars that are better, better looking, and cheaper.....but the odds of them gaining traction against the Ferrari Machine is approaching absolute zero in my lifetime.

Really Ferrari are the 'niche market machine' like you say Victory is to the HD. Ferrari is equalled/outperformed by Porsche as an example. Lambourghini/ferrari are small production manufactureres, porsche are mass produced. Therin lies the appeal of the Italian marques, exclusivity.. HD are now like assholes, they are everywhere and the bubble for HD WILL burst sooner rather than later I believe.

[Flip]

Some of us here just don't like the japs or jap vehicles. They could be better faster stronger, but they are just rice burers to me and I say "no thanks not interested".

[avgas]

More importantly will Harley ever get another race win.
The only other one they have ever had was the 250 GP many moons ago.

[Coolz]

More importantly will Harley ever get another race win.
The only other one they have ever had was the 250 GP many moons ago.

Thats because they build cruisers not sportbikes. They did however hold the land speed record for 20 years. Harleys are not my favorite bike but I don't hate them either and I think the world would be a much duller place without them.

[ratusratus]

Thats because they build cruisers not sportbikes. They did however hold the land speed record for 20 years. Harleys are not my favorite bike but I don't hate them either and I think the world would be a much duller place without them.

Thats dead bloody right mate

[ratusratus]

Some of us here just don't like the japs or jap vehicles. They could be better faster stronger, but they are just rice burers to me and I say "no thanks not interested".

at last the truth has been told:beer:

[GrayWolf]

Some of us here just don't like the japs or jap vehicles. They could be better faster stronger, but they are just rice burers to me and I say "no thanks not interested".

I agree with that, and it is a real oxymoron of philosophy.... as a lad I was part of (brit bikes) the jap shit school of thought in England. I ended up riding Jap bikes, for exactly the reason's you give... reliable and faster. (Faster), as a sprog, is sooooo important innit ;) :innocent:
HD know that the cruiser market is a narrow one way street, hence the V rod and XR series of bikes. Buell for all the arguements for and agin', did show that there is a market for big inch V twins that have reasonable performance yet retain the characteristics of a low revving big block.... The Yamaha MT was badly handled by Yamaha, too pricey and actually released too late.. 6 years after the unveiling at Tokyo(1999). By then Beull, V rod, M109 etc were well established and yamaha really lost the head start the MT had on the rest.
Triumph have now proven that you can/need to produce both types of bikes, sporting and cruisers... I would be really interested to see how big a percentage of the US market triumph have acquired now.

What for many of us is the big 'anti's' are the attitude and snobbery of many HD owners, and I have watched it grow since the introduction of the Evo motor 30 yrs ago... and the overpricing when compared to other bikes of the same value when you look at the technology available. BMW is the classic comparision, around the same price bracket, not japanese HUGE as a manufacturer, but for the same prices (high spec tourers) offer massive levels of technology/performance/handling/ability even on the boxer twins. That is where HD will in the end HAVE to pick up their game... even the Italian marque's like Guzzi have realised this and improved exponentially over recent years.

[george formby]

I have the T-Shirt...:yes:
Unfortunately it has a 'My Little Pony' motif.

Er, is that the one that looks pink in bright sunlight?

[Maha]

Er, is that the one that looks pink in bright sunlight?

....no, more apricot I think you'll find..

[george formby]

....no more apricot I think you'll find..

Salmon


According to the KB colour chart;)

[Maha]

Salmon


According to the KB colour chart;)

YES!....Victory to the scaly one!

[avgas]

Thats because they build cruisers not sportbikes. They did however hold the land speed record for 20 years. Harleys are not my favorite bike but I don't hate them either and I think the world would be a much duller place without them.
Really.
So all those harley race bikes are a figment of my imagination?
I actually like Harley. But I think they need to look at the range, they changed it 30, 50 and 80 years ago........don't see why they can't do that again.
Hell they could even release it under the "Buell" name if they wanted too (not sure if they still own Aermacci as well).

Victory can do the same simply by selling the Kore.

[avgas]

Salmon


According to the KB colour chart;)
Not Coral?

[Paul in NZ]

The marketing genius that manages to out sell, out brand HD (assuming HD don't implode) will write a book about it and retire on the proceeds. Its a formidable product and selling machine.

[george formby]

Not Coral?

Nope, that's verbatim from the colour chart.

I would like to see Victory take enough market share for Harley to branch out with their designs, particularly snow mobiles.... Nah, it would be interesting to see what Harley would do, though. The V-rod needs a big update.

[sinfull]

If you're looking for personal opinions (ya aint but i have the time so will add mine)

I just dont like the look of the victory, but for that matter nor do i like the look of the V rod .


I seen a late model kwaka cruiser a few months back and liked it, not sure on comfort but looked great ! Not that my FXR is overly comfy at high speed lol but at the speed limit (or just over) i can ride all day and get back on fresh at 7 am !

Sport bikes i have trouble riding all day, even higher bars like on the speed triple have me wanting to get off after a few hours !

I do agree with those that say HD need to bring back a buell or a lookalike to keep things fresh and apeal to the sports bike freaks !

[george formby]

I do agree with those that say HD need to bring back a buell or a lookalike to keep things fresh and apeal to the sports bike freaks !

Be nice to see a challenge to the Ducati Drivel from the masters of Heavy Metal. I guess that would depend on the impact the Ducati has in Mercka.

[ducatilover]

Really.
So all those harley race bikes are a figment of my imagination?

Yeah, that awesome 1000cc rip-snorting beast from the 80's is just lies, we've been had! :weep:

[wysper]

What for many of us is the big 'anti's' are the attitude and snobbery of many HD owners, and I have watched it grow since the introduction of the Evo motor 30 yrs ago... and the overpricing when compared to other bikes of the same value when you look at the technology available. BMW is the classic comparision, around the same price bracket, not japanese HUGE as a manufacturer, but for the same prices (high spec tourers) offer massive levels of technology/performance/handling/ability even on the boxer twins. That is where HD will in the end HAVE to pick up their game... even the Italian marque's like Guzzi have realised this and improved exponentially over recent years.

Snobbery of some owners, yep, but a lot of makes, models and types get that.

Harley seems pretty well priced at the moment, probably one of the reasons they are everywhere.
As for the technology, funnily enough, for me, the lack of it was part of the attraction. Just seemed to appeal to what I was looking for in a bike. Didn't need engine mapping, ABS, GPS, EFI (although they are now :) and all the other gizmos. Didn't need luggage space to rival a station wagon, didn't need fairing that made me look like a small car. So with all that, the sportster was pretty much perfect for me. The Triumph America and Speedster were there too, but they were more expensive and didn't give me the same grin. So HD it was.

I don't care about the whole Family and Merchandising Machine, but they do some good accessories, and with 50 years of sportster, the accessories just work.

Not for everybody and thats cool. The Victory will be like that too. Different market, more niche than that HD market.

[ratusratus]

If you're looking for personal opinions (ya aint but i have the time so will add mine)

I just dont like the look of the victory, but for that matter nor do i like the look of the V rod .


I seen a late model kwaka cruiser a few months back and liked it, not sure on comfort but looked great ! Not that my FXR is overly comfy at high speed lol but at the speed limit (or just over) i can ride all day and get back on fresh at 7 am !

Sport bikes i have trouble riding all day, even higher bars like on the speed triple have me wanting to get off after a few hours !

I do agree with those that say HD need to bring back a buell or a lookalike to keep things fresh and apeal to the sports bike freaks !

Hey did you happen to notice my xr1200 on the memorial ride(awesome ride)....bring back the xr!!!!

[sinfull]

Hey did you happen to notice my xr1200 on the memorial ride(awesome ride)....bring back the xr!!!!
Yeah mate you were in camo type gear ? You never stayed for a feed did ya ?

Make sure ya stay on next time man the feed was only 30 min after we got back to the club

[AD345]

110-odd years of marketing and sales

Generational ownership

Iconic status and identification as part of the wider national identity

H-D is a behemoth in it's prime market and it's position is extremely unlikely to change for years, if not decades

It has never been about being a "threat" to Harley, it's about recognising that the market had room to expand - ESPECIALLY with another, stable, and well funded, American brand.

Victory has unashamedly traded on the H-D Americana appeal to put another viable V-twin cruiser on the market and been patient enough to build their own identity with it.

The early Hammer-engined 92 VC's were a real H-D clone and they only appealed to the very conservative ( but still quite big) market that thinks motorcycle styling stopped circa 1965. They sold in small numbers, albeit to a passionate following, and combined with early transmission problems they looked destined to be yet another blip on the American cruiser scene quickly snuffed by the weight of the H-D legacy and distributorship

Fortunately Victory decided to push on with a distinctively different type of bike and with designer Michael Song and the Vegas in 2003 they found something to really build on. Micheal's designs combined with the Freedom 100 cu motor gave Victory a playing field all of their own. Like H-D but different enough that they can justifiably shrug off the "clone" comments that plague the Japanese cruisers they have now enjoyed over 9 years of successive double digit percentage growth in turbulent economic times.

They still probably only sell 10% of Harleys numbers but that's not small and their share is growing

There was another company 30 years ago that had a virtually identical sales story against H-D (in numbers terms)

Some whacky little outfit called Honda I believe

[Road kill]

Harley Davidson makes the most popular motorcycles on the planet.
What ever the many reasons all the haters come up with,,this is simple fact,,,Get over it !

Victory,,,just another one,sad fucks couldn't even come up with an idea of their own ,,,sure their not really japanese after all ?
:jerry:

[Big Dave]

If 'Popular' = best selling, then Hero (India) make the most world's most popular motorcycle.

If Brand recognition = popular then H-D is the only bike in the top 100 brands. (Depending on whose surveys you believe)

[skippa1]

Harley Davidson makes the most popular motorcycles on the planet.
What ever the many reasons all the haters come up with,,this is simple fact,,,Get over it !

Victory,,,just another one,sad fucks couldn't even come up with an idea of their own ,,,sure their not really japanese after all ?
:jerry:

<dt>Other bikes you own:</dt><dd>they come an go but I'm not biased:Oops: your bad</dd>

[jrandom]

I have very particular tastes in motorcycles, as we all do, and the Harley-Davidson Nightster hits a real sweet spot for me. So I got one. I don't like every Harley ever, and I certainly avoid the whole image / brand / community thing. None of my friends ride Harleys and I wouldn't be seen dead at a H.O.G. event or wearing Harley branded clothing.

But this bike is just damn near perfect.

<img src="http://i46.tinypic.com/2n6916d.jpg"/>

Most Victory bikes look too long and blobby and like a 1950s idea of futuristic design to me. They don't push my buttons. I like the High Ball, though. It has some things on it I'd change, but they're minor. I'll take one for a spin next time I'm up Haldanes way if they have a demo unit.

[Big Dave]

I wouldn't be seen dead at a H.O.G. event or wearing Harley branded clothing.

They don't miss you.

I've enjoyed the HOG events I've been too. Well run and sponsored affairs with lots of very decent folk.
A few blats with the Victory crew likewise - and the Triumph boys - and the Suzuki Boulevard lot regularly.
Funny thing is when you get to tag along - they are all remarkably similar - they just have different taste in veehickles.

[jrandom]

I've enjoyed the HOG events I've been too. Well run and sponsored affairs with lots of very decent folk.

Well, maybe I'll swallow my pride and pop along to one some day.

I reserve the right to write scathing things about it afterwards on the internet, though.

:sunny:

[Big Dave]

Carte blanche on the fashion sense.
That said - my favourite riding Jacket at the moment is an 'understated' Harley number.
The logo is slightly embossed till a headlight shines on it - then it becomes reflective hi-vis.
It's also remarkably waterproof for a leather garment with excellent armour and numerous nice touches - vents, gadget pockets, liners etc.

It comes down to you have to 'want' to go on a large, organised group ride with rulez - and all that entails too.
But for an example on how to run it with due consideration to safety protocols and the like - the HOGS have the best model.

[lakedaemonian]

except Husqvarna and Royal Enfield are both older as manufacturer's. Remember HD has been bailed out a few times by their govt over the years, had they not? HD would be among the 'dead ducks' of marque's. A lot of us old farts will remember the HD's of the late 60's early 70's they were FUCKING terrible heaps of SHITE, if you ever get a chance to ride an AMF era HD? Do it for the experience! it is the EVO engine that made HD 'popular' in the 1980's HD are in serious difficulty for sales, that is a printed fact/statement.. they are looking to 'international' sales to keep them ahead. The V rod was the bike that is/was supposed to attract those looking for a faster/sportier machine, yet in NZ/Aussie? They are not importing the XR1200, which is the best HD produced in My oipinion.
So please dont run away with the idea HD have always been the dogs bollox,,, by rights they should have gone the same way triumph/norton/villiers went in the 70's.

HD did get support from government, but not a bailout as such. What occurred was Japanese brands attacked Harley in their home market by dumping product below cost to try and kill Harley. The Japanese brands had the support of their government in doing so. Harley asked for and got tariffs places on all Japanese bikes over 700CC....hence that weird blip of 700cc bikes in the 80's from Japan down from 750cc.

Harley recovered with the Evo/Softail...and went back to government and asked to have the tarriff removed earlier than it's original expiry.

Harley had some serious difficulty in the US, serious difficulty much along the lines of collateralized mortgages(but with Harleys)....that is behind them. What's in front of them is being able to build any given bike on any given day on any given production line. They've been slow to bring their manufacturing and logistics flexibility and adaptability into the 19th century(quality control is quite good) so that their 19th century manufacturing and logistics machine can match their 21st century marketing machine.

Dealer stock levels(with fewer total dealers) in the US are back to early 2000s stocking levels, dealers are complaining about not having enough stock in the US right now....but they are no longer marking up bikes by $2-5K above RRP on a 12-18 month waiting list.

The US market is actually quite healthy for Harley dealers at the moment on average.....but it was a hard 5+ years for many.

You are entirely correct about AMF...they are complete shite.


Really Ferrari are the 'niche market machine' like you say Victory is to the HD. Ferrari is equalled/outperformed by Porsche as an example. Lambourghini/ferrari are small production manufactureres, porsche are mass produced. Therin lies the appeal of the Italian marques, exclusivity.. HD are now like assholes, they are everywhere and the bubble for HD WILL burst sooner rather than later I believe.

Ferrari is not a perfect analogy.......BUT the relationship between existing customer pre-orders for upcoming Ferrari and Harley new models has been a quite similar pattern over the past 15+ years.

Ferrari is popularly and commonly viewed as a status symbol and benchmark of life for the wealthy.

HD is popularly and commonly viewed as a status symbol and benchmark of life for Joe Bloggs.

Ferrari has Modena, Harley has Milwaukee....both locations are quite brand centric and have become the respective Meccas for their large customer bases....with considerable economic activity supporting JUST rabid fans of the respective brands.

Same goes with merchandise debth and variety.......no one else even comes close.

Personally, I think the biggest issue for Harley since the AMF days, beyond the aforementioned manufacturing/logisitics/distribution agility/flexibility is a new entry level bike family.

In the 1960s the biggest bikes on the road were smaller than the smallest bike Harley produces today.

With an exploding developing world market that devours smaller displacement bikes by the millions, a need to reach down into a younger demographic in the developed world, as well as price inflation hidden through less product(think supermarket shelf where a can of soup is reduced in size to hide inflation) a new entry level model family for Harley is probably as important as the introduction of the Evo/Softail in 1984.

[Dangsta]

Harley's are okay bikes and affordable status symbols. They look pretty gnarly and if you don't like stock then they've got plenty of shiny options for you. When I didn't know how to ride I still knew what a Harley was. Now I ride, and I'm more aware of what's on the road, it seems like every second bikes a Harley but I still take a second look....and I still find myself wanting one. That's even now I know that there are other cheaper, just as or even more powerful, more reliable options out there. Maybe the whole Harley thing is that they appeal to non-riders in a way that Honda's or Suzuki's just don't. When I see a Porsche Boxter, I assume they can't afford a 911. When I look at my S83, I know it's because I can't afford a Harley. Still love my Suzuki but if I had the coin I'd own a Harley. Sad but true.

[skippa1]

Still love my Suzuki but if I had the coin I'd own a Harley. Sad but true.

Why settle for second best, get a Victory:whistle:

[ratusratus]

Harley's are okay bikes and affordable status symbols. They look pretty gnarly and if you don't like stock then they've got plenty of shiny options for you. When I didn't know how to ride I still knew what a Harley was. Now I ride, and I'm more aware of what's on the road, it seems like every second bikes a Harley but I still take a second look....and I still find myself wanting one. That's even now I know that there are other cheaper, just as or even more powerful, more reliable options out there. Maybe the whole Harley thing is that they appeal to non-riders in a way that Honda's or Suzuki's just don't. When I see a Porsche Boxter, I assume they can't afford a 911. When I look at my S83, I know it's because I can't afford a Harley. Still love my Suzuki but if I had the coin I'd own a Harley. Sad but true.

Dont be sad mate cause when you get a Harley you will love it.....:-)