Asset sale protests!

[oldrider]

I have always said NZ is a "socialist country" (nurtured by the state school system) today's asset sales protests simply demonstrate the point!

The objective should be less "monopoly" government interference and increased creation of commercial opportunities for business growth!

Government assets are dependant on taxpayer support (Air NZ) and higher and higher consumer pricing! (electricity)

By floating public shares in the asset, only those who want to invest need invest, freeing up taxpayer money for other projects!

"Real" competition rather than in house SOE "pretend monopoly competition" high price setting "should" put the brakes on unsupported price rises!

I was disgusted with the protests today, not so much about the stated reason but more by the "proof" that New Zealanders are so collectively stupid! :confused:

Even more disturbing is the part the media played in trying to maximise the coverage of the stupidity! :facepalm:

[scumdog]

Hmm, if asked "What assets are the Government intending to sell?" I wonder how many of the protest mob could give an accurate answer - or answer at all?

[FJRider]

I guess we'll see to what degree of public support of Goverment now holds ... after the next election.

[FJRider]

Hmm, if asked "What assets are the Government intending to sell?" I wonder how many of the protest mob could give an accurate answer - or answer at all?

And if five different people were asked/able to give an explanation of such sales ... five different explanations would result.

[Brian d marge]

Hmm, if asked "What assets are the Government intending to sell?" I wonder how many of the protest mob could give an accurate answer - or answer at all?

49.9999999999999999999999% of all

Stephen

[Damantis]

Hmm, if asked "What assets are the Government intending to sell?" I wonder how many of the protest mob could give an accurate answer - or answer at all?

Most would be reasonably more informed than the Tory muppets who belieive Asset Sales make any financial sense. At least said protesters got off thier arses and stood up for what they are passionate about instead of just whining about societys ills and blaming the poor from the comfort of behind a keyboard or on the phone to talkback etc. And yes, I WAS THERE.

Asset sales are driven purely by a right a wing ideology about government having less influence or control of things and leaving it all to big business interests... Corporate America? Things worked out well them huh? The economics of it are pretty simple. They sell up, there is a small but noticable dent in the deficit, then we get less return on our reduced ownership until it's making no money at all because it's all been sucked offshore to John Keys rich mates. Oh wait, there's more. When it's unprofitable, we'll have to buy out all these foriegn "investors" (rapists) so we can continue to keep these companies operating as they are essential utilities! ( Kiwirail, anyone? )

How does selling ANY of it make sense if they are already making money? If you had a dairy farm and some debt, would you sell half your cows or just sell the milk?

All of that said, people are overlooking the obvious objection. All New Zealanders ALREADY OWN THESE ASSETS! Who the fuck does Key and his rich asshole mates think they are? They are selling away what we all have bought and paid for over generations of taxation! Well excuse me, but I'm already a fricken shareholder and I want my share to be managed by the government and the dividends paid back to me via the consolidated fund / superannuation / decent health system or whatever. How dare they steal it from me and my children, then have the cheek to offer it back to me at a price!

It's fucking bolocks.

But I suppose being an agent of the state, you'd be led to believe some fairy story about it making some kind of financial sense.

[puddytat]

I would like to know which country so far has benefitted from such asset sales....:scratch: You know , the one where people are dancing in the street in joy as to the difference it has made to thier lives.
And I mean the Nation as a whole, not just Corporations or the privileged rich.

[Damantis]

I would like to know which country so far has benefitted from such asset sales....:scratch: You know , the one where people are dancing in the street in joy as to the difference it has made to thier lives.
And I mean the Nation as a whole, not just Corporations or the privileged rich.

I mean just look at what it's done for Waihi and Huntly! They are just booming, right? :lol:

All this crap about "Mum and Dad investors" is a crock too. Most Kiwis dont even have the 2-3k lying around to spend on shares, and the ones that might, will sell them to offshore interests as soon as a buck can be made so effectively nearly all of the future profits from the SOE's will go to big corporartes. Big corporates who have a track record of fucking the other 99% of the world ever since the industrial revolution started.

[Damantis]

Yeah, bloody media! Fancy reporting about thousands of people voicing their democratic right to protest! Bloody cheek! They should have been showing us funny cat videos or disseminating government propaganda or updayed us on Tom Cruises divorce or given us an extra five minutes of men kicking a ball around. I know that's the sort of news that's really important.:brick:

[Road kill]

Well that shut the oldrider an scumbag club up for a change.
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[FJRider]

Most would be reasonably more informed than the Tory muppets who belieive Asset Sales make any financial sense. At least said protesters got off thier arses and stood up for what they are passionate about instead of just whining about societys ills and blaming the poor from the comfort of behind a keyboard or on the phone to talkback etc. And yes, I WAS THERE.

Was there any particular asset mentioned, that was being sold ... that the people were objecting to ???
Which particular condition of that sale (or any sale) ... did they object to ???
Do you think it may pay to wait and see if the sale of any "asset" ... will be to our advantage ???
Or does those sales be automatically ... be to our disadvantage ???


Asset sales are driven purely by a right a wing ideology about government having less influence or control of things and leaving it all to big business interests...

The control will be in "Conditions of sale" ... written as usual into the contract of sale.
You no doubt have read the sale contract for all the "assets" that will be sold ... ???


When it's unprofitable, we'll have to buy out all these foriegn "investors" (rapists) so we can continue to keep these companies operating as they are essential utilities! ( Kiwirail, anyone? )

As far as Kiwirail went ... in an attempt to keep it profitable, services were reduced/removed ... with only essential repairs made to keep operations going. Lack of public support meant costs outweighed profit. The very same public, that now claim it was an essential service. This was before it was sold to Toll. And during the ownership of Toll ... the goverment hardly lost out in profit from the rail system .... in the way of GST (alone) from all services supplied by Toll. I (or anybody else) can hardly believe they (Toll) were making money "hand over fist" ... If they actually were ... they still would be.

Interestingly ... with the increase in fuel costs ... and coming increases in road tax fees ... (announced by goverment recently) rail may come into it's own again soon. A reduction in trucks weight/size limits ... this policy brings ... can't hurt the rail system.


How does selling ANY of it make sense if they are already making money? If you had a dairy farm and some debt, would you sell half your cows or just sell the milk?

If the sale of those cows cover existing debt ... thus income from the existing cows (after farm costs) was profit. With NO payment any interest fee's on loans ... that would be a viable option to a dairy farm manager.


All of that said, people are overlooking the obvious objection. All New Zealanders ALREADY OWN THESE ASSETS! Who the fuck does Key and his rich asshole mates think they are? They are selling away what we all have bought and paid for over generations of taxation! Well excuse me, but I'm already a fricken shareholder and I want my share to be managed by the government and the dividends paid back to me via the consolidated fund / superannuation / decent health system or whatever. How dare they steal it from me and my children, then have the cheek to offer it back to me at a price!

If it's "Bought and paid for" ... how do you explain the national (excuse the pun) debt ... ??? how many billion is it at the moment ... ???


It's fucking bolocks.

That is exactly my opinion of your post.


But I suppose being an agent of the state, you'd be led to believe some fairy story about it making some kind of financial sense.

I thought he was merely a goverment employee ... an employee not dependant on ANY particular goverment party for employment ... thus not with ANY political affiliations as a requirement/condition of employment ...

Or have I got it wrong ... again ...

[Brian d marge]

And if five different people were asked/able to give an explanation of such sales ... five different explanations would result.

<style type="text/css"> <!-- @page { margin: 0.79in } P { margin-bottom: 0.08in } --> </style> because people arent being given the information

Ive started countless threads on this .

It is an ideology from the Chicago school of thought , the assets will first be under limited ownership , and may ( most of them ) remain so , the law will be past that allows more than 50 % ownership , they will stay mostly under NZ ownership (owned by the few big NZ investors OR Australians if they can get it listed on the Australian stock exchange)
If there are any BIG ROIs then expect overseas investors to head the bill.

Shareholder quite rightly expect a return on investment , so we now have 50 % of the company owners expecting a return ..of? 5, 6 % and the Government wants a return of?

IF, as in Kiwirail and off top of head , one of the electricity companys were to be sold, then the new owner will seek to cover the costs involved AND any share holder returns,

now this is all well and good for say Apple or Sony or Jk engineering .co..... BUT these are essential services , that some people quite literally depend upon , the woman who had her electricity cut off and she needed it to breathe , ( yes they weren't exactly brain surgeons but ) , In fact I would say anything todo with the environment cannot be left to a lassez faire business model, as if its screwed up we all suffer ( if you want to see that in action look at some of the rivers in china )

The argument people such as FJ rider are quite valid for the business environment , sorry but water is an essential service ( try not using it for a while ) as is electricity and the health system some would argue the telephone and education, but you could do with out both , many do and have

If you sell water , the costs ( to you the average man on the street ) WILL go up , the quality of the services will deteriorate ( water management, ) as these thing are run to make money ,,, and if coke cola wants to build a huge plant in Christchurch to supply the Australasian market , who will monitor the amount of that beautiful Christchurch water that takes a few years to fill.........may not happen but it wouldn't surprise me if it did.


Why am I so sure? Because its happened in other countries and in New Zealand … wasnt it a 400% increase for electricity prices , than if it had remained the old electricity board


Stephen

[Brian d marge]

I would like to know which country so far has benefitted from such asset sales....:scratch: You know , the one where people are dancing in the street in joy as to the difference it has made to thier lives.
And I mean the Nation as a whole, not just Corporations or the privileged rich.

the only one I can think of , is UAE.... and Rockall

Stephen

[FJRider]

Because people arent being given the information

Information that can't be given out ... as it is not yet written into any contract .... yet. Any comment on what IS possibly going to be in them ... is down to ... guesswork and assumptions. Hardly the basis of valid arguments.


If there are any BIG ROIs then expect overseas investors to head the bill.

IF ... thats a big if ... but there are more if's ...

If they want to take the risk.
If they accept the conditions of sale.
If they have the finance to buy in for the price/terms.
If the goverment can come up with a deal that's not political suicide ... come the next election.


Shareholder quite rightly expect a return on investment , so we now have 50 % of the company owners expecting a return ..of? 5, 6 % and the Government wants a return of ?

If operational costs are reduced/removed as part of sale conditions ... those costs are not returns as such, but savings. Either way ... it's still money in the bank. If tax breaks are given in return for greater operational costs covered ... The buyer company profit still remains viable. As do returns to goverment coffers.


IF, as in Kiwirail and off top of head , one of the electricity companys were to be sold, then the new owner will seek to cover the costs involved AND any share holder returns,

If they think they can't ... they won't buy in ... one would think ???


now this is all well and good for say Apple or Sony or Jk engineering .co..... BUT these are essential services.

At this stage it's only guesswork on what actually will be sold. To compare the sale of an existing business ... to one's being built in China ... is just plain scaremongering.


The argument people such as FJ rider are quite valid for the business environment , sorry but water is an essential service ( try not using it for a while ) as is electricity and the health system

The supply of required water amounts to hydro schemes, cannot be guaranted ... even by goverment. Production of water is not under goverment control.

The public health system is already subsidised by the private health companys ... as they share/use most of the equipment public hospitals have. If they didn't ... waiting lists would be shorter, but more expensive to fund (by goverment)


If you sell water

If any product is needed ... and a system/structure is built to provide it ... costs to provide that service must be met. If that product is wasted by the consumer ... it's only fair to expect to pay more for the service ... isn't it ???
If 20 years ago ... people were told they would be buying bottled water in supermarkets by the gallon ... they would (and were) laughed at.


… wasnt it a 400% increase for electricity prices , than if it had remained the old electricity board

Who is to say the "old electricity board" would not have put the price up ???
Or because it was goverment run ... they would cover any increases out of our taxes ??? I doubt it ...

[Jacko2]

266439
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[FJRider]

because people arent being given the information

By that comment ... this actually seems then, protests are nothing more than political anti-goverment action ... based on uninformed opinion ... and biased reasoning.

Hardly ... valid arguements.

[FJRider]

deja vu

So ... at least one New Zealander made money out of the asset sales ... last time. :whistle:

[Brian d marge]

By that comment ... this actually seems then, protests are nothing more than political anti-goverment action ... based on uninformed opinion ... and biased reasoning.

Hardly ... valid arguements.
Largely yes, and the government knows this , as well as ONLY 400 people from christchurch actually marched , 4/2500, not exactly great over whelming numbers.

Still doesnt make the actual sales a good idea though.

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

Information that can't be given out ... as it is not yet written into any contract .... yet. Any comment on what IS possibly going to be in them ... is down to ... guesswork and assumptions. Hardly the basis of valid arguments.

see my other post , but if 2 out of your 3 other countires have done similar , chances are your will do the same ...but your quite right untill it IS pear shaped how can one know it will go that way ..



IF ... thats a big if ... but there are more if's ...

If they want to take the risk.
If they accept the conditions of sale.
If they have the finance to buy in for the price/terms.
If the goverment can come up with a deal that's not political suicide ... come the next election.


All true, one could assume that the English water company " international water limited " would have enough money and reasons ,, but then again it may not want to buy in ...

political suicide , yes possibly , but if labour continues the madness or doesnt buy back , then someone else is calling the shots ....the bank maybe??


If operational costs are reduced/removed as part of sale conditions ... those costs are not returns as such, but savings. Either way ... it's still money in the bank. If tax breaks are given in return for greater operational costs covered ... The buyer company profit still remains viable. As do returns to goverment coffers.
Where are these saving going to come from ? reduced salaries, reduced services , job cuts or higher charges? If the government gives tax breaks isnt it losing on its return?




If they think they can't ... they won't buy in ... one would think ???

Why did Toll buy Kiwirail? to make money , set up a sub group toll nz and try and run it at a profit , profit being the key word , those profits went ...to australia, was reinvested back into kiwi rail ,,,in fact the ( toll ) won the Rogers award for a few years for being an arse of a company , so did telcom and mighty river power

No help to me , I lost all of my services and the prices went up..

no battery on l;ap top , so will return tomorrow

Stephen



At this stage it's only guesswork on what actually will be sold. To compare the sale of an existing business ... to one's being built in China ... is just plain scaremongering.

[QUOTE=Brian d'marge;1130357439]The argument people such as FJ rider are quite valid for the business environment , sorry but water is an essential service ( try not using it for a while ) as is electricity and the health system

The supply of required water amounts to hydro schemes, cannot be guaranted ... even by goverment. Production of water is not under goverment control.

The public health system is already subsidised by the private health companys ... as they share/use most of the equipment public hospitals have. If they didn't ... waiting lists would be shorter, but more expensive to fund (by goverment)



If any product is needed ... and a system/structure is built to provide it ... costs to provide that service must be met. If that product is wasted by the consumer ... it's only fair to expect to pay more for the service ... isn't it ???
If 20 years ago ... people were told they would be buying bottled water in supermarkets by the gallon ... they would (and were) laughed at.



Who is to say the "old electricity board" would not have put the price up ???
Or because it was goverment run ... they would cover any increases out of our taxes ??? I doubt it ...


answer these tomorrow sorry

Stephen

[jasonu]

And if five different people were asked/able to give an explanation of such sales ... five different explanations would result.

Yep just like those occupy wankers.

[scumdog]

Well that shut the oldrider an scumbag club up for a change.
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Yes, well, having to go to work (for the tax-payer) did rather inconveniently curtail any posts from ME on this thread...<_<

[scumdog]

But I suppose being an agent of the state, you'd be led to believe some fairy story about it making some kind of financial sense.

Jump to all the suppositons ya want sonny.

It still won't make you right...


It seems you may have overlooked the fact I made NO mention of the financial wisdom or otherwise of selling assets....

[MisterD]

Most would be reasonably more informed than the Tory muppets who belieive Asset Sales make any financial sense.

Can you explain without a cut-and-paste from a Green or Labour party flier, why they don't?



(snipped a bunch of boilerplate conspiracy nonsense.
How does selling ANY of it make sense if they are already making money? If you had a dairy farm and some debt, would you sell half your cows or just sell the milk?

Can you explain why Fairfax are selling down their holding in Trademe, which is one of the most profitable parts of their business then?

Why wouldn't you, in your dairy example, sell a half share in your herd to an investor in order to finance a new milking shed? The government is selling a share in assets providing a financial return, in order to pay for assets that produce a return in other less direct way to the country: schools, roads...




All of that said, people are overlooking the obvious objection. All New Zealanders ALREADY OWN THESE ASSETS!

Excellent, can you show me where I get to go to the AGM and ask the directors questions about the company's performance?

[BoristheBiter]

All this crap about "Mum and Dad investors" is a crock too. Most Kiwis dont even have the 2-3k lying around to spend on shares, and the ones that might, will sell them to offshore interests as soon as a buck can be made so effectively nearly all of the future profits from the SOE's will go to big corporartes. Big corporates who have a track record of fucking the other 99% of the world ever since the industrial revolution started.

Well maybe if they had used their money to better effect they might still have some money left over to invest for their future.

[MSTRS]

Didn't Rogernomics occur in the 1980s? And wasn't that a huge success for us all?

[oldrider]

The world is made up of leaders and followers ... those that do and those that only do what others tell them to!

So all the protesters were doing their own thing were they? Yeah right!

The politicians of this world (especially NZ) are running around like headless chooks rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic!

NZ is a brainwashed socialist state, leaderless and devoid of original thought only able to react to mob rule behaviour and that's what the protests were ... mob rule!

The funny part is that even if it was the entire country turning out ... it still has no official or legal or political status ... the politicians just carry on!

The not so funny part is that a lot of you were there .... I rest my case! :weird:

[BoristheBiter]

The world is made up of leaders and followers ... those that do and those that only do what others tell them to!

So all the protesters were doing their own thing were they? Yeah right!

The politicians of this world (especially NZ) are running around like headless chooks rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic!

NZ is a brainwashed socialist state, leaderless and devoid of original thought only able to react to mob rule behaviour and that's what the protests were ... mob rule!

The funny part is that even if it was the entire country turning out ... it still has no official or legal or political status ... the politicians just carry on!

The not so funny part is that a lot of you were there .... I rest my case! :weird:

The problem is there are fuck all people worth a dam to vote for. Nats and Labour will never change, the greens, Maori and Mana are all loopy activists, and the rest will never become big enough to make a difference because as you said NZ is brain washed. (a bit harsh but close enough).

I knew the Nats were going to sell 49% the assets and I still voted for them, not because I agree with it, but there was no one else to vote for that has any idea (well plausible idea) how to work in a financial fuck up we have at the moment and they said the government would hold the still hold the 51% majority share.

All the others that sit and cry about the selling of the assets should have voted Labour as that was the only way to stop it.
But you didn't, well some didn't, and now you think bleating about on the streets (or forum) will change the fact that at least one of the assets is going to be partially sold.

You got your chance to voice your opinion last year and will again. You just have to weigh up what you can live with or can't live without, and when you choose you should have the balls to stand up for that choice you make.

[Drew]

I recently had to walk the length of Welle central, because these fuckin wankers were protesting and the busses weren't able to run.

"What do we want"? "TVNZ". "When do we want it"? "Now"!

Copper told me to get off the road before I could confront them. I was fuckin livid man.

[Damantis]

Jump to all the suppositons ya want sonny.

It still won't make you right...


It seems you may have overlooked the fact I made NO mention of the financial wisdom or otherwise of selling assets....

So, does that mean it's a purely ideological approval in your case then? It's a financial decision that affects the future generations of those of all ideologies. That's why it's so bloody arrogant to assume it's a great idea to sell half of one of the few good income streams the government will ever have, just for a short term gain.

[mashman]

Well maybe if they had used their money to better effect they might still have some money left over to invest for their BRIGHTER future.

:killingme fixed that for ya.

Like those who invested in Blue Chip or Bridgecorp or Hanover? SCF gets a special mention because they were bailed out with interest... fuck me that sounds vaguely familiar. Perhaps Mum and Dad need to invest in some of those no lose schemes and as we have a country full of really really clever finance people, put the two together and let's see if we can build something that is too big to fail... until it fails that is, but meh, we might have retired by then and the debt will have been passed on to the next generation to pay off. Fuckin genius suggestion there Boris :niceone:

[scumdog]

So, does that mean it's a purely ideological approval in your case then? It's a financial decision that affects the future generations of those of all ideologies. That's why it's so bloody arrogant to assume it's a great idea to sell half of one of the few good income streams the government will ever have, just for a short term gain.

Once again you seem to be trying to put words in my mouth - are you a politician or something??:eek5:


Again I say I make no mention of 'approval' in my post - just curiosity...well that's the way I intended it to appear...

[Quasievil]

I thought the asset sale protest was the last election, get over it

[Damantis]

The world is made up of leaders and followers ... those that do and those that only do what others tell them to!

So all the protesters were doing their own thing were they? Yeah right!

The politicians of this world (especially NZ) are running around like headless chooks rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic!

NZ is a brainwashed socialist state, leaderless and devoid of original thought only able to react to mob rule behaviour and that's what the protests were ... mob rule!

The funny part is that even if it was the entire country turning out ... it still has no official or legal or political status ... the politicians just carry on!

The not so funny part is that a lot of you were there .... I rest my case! :weird:

Everyone is "brainwashed" to some degree, whatever they believe. Our opinions and aligeinces are formed by our upbringing and social interactions and the discussions therein to a greater extent. The whole Socialist versus Capitalist thing is just a distraction from the fact that the world is run by corporations and the instruments ( i.e political parties ) swing back and forth across the spectrum as populations continually vote for a different brand of bullshit. Meanwhile, it's business as usual for the 1% while the 99% scrabble for the crumbs.

We need an entire country to turn out? Less than half the country is in favour of asset sales but Key thinks he has a mandate for such actions just 'cos he has Peter Dunne and John Banks ( a national puppet sent to steal a political party and thereby a seat in parliament ) And we all have to turn out at the same time? Some had to work, some are invalids, some were just too busy running the treadmill rat-race to fit it into their day and yes, some are just apathetic and conditioned to accept whatever brand of bullshit gets voted in.

Did the whole of France or Russia turn out for their revolutions? Or was it just the ones who had the balls and conviction to facillitate change when it was needed?

[Damantis]

I thought the asset sale protest was the last election, get over it

Due to the parochialism of most voters ( especially the right wing ones, it seems ) many people vote less on issues and more on what they were taught to by their Tory prick parents etc "Don't vote for those loonie lefties, son. They'll ruin everything with all that talk of fairness, equality etc. Just vote for the Tories. They are all rich and that's the measure of sucsess in the world. Look son, it's working for us and that's all that matters. Fuck the poor and disadvantaged, they deserve their misfortune and besides, someone has to do all those shitty minimum wage jobs and it sure as fuck shouldn't be us... blah blah ... blame the Maoris ... blame the socialists ... blah blah if we could just genetically farm the underclass and use them as slaves imagine how productive our corporations would be! ... blah blah ... "

People need to wake up a know that shit needs to change on a global level. Asset sales are not the way to reduce debt. Anyone can see that if they look at it with an open mind. Problem is, people aren't taught to think for themselves, and that's what the globalists bank on.

[Damantis]

Once again you seem to be trying to put words in my mouth - are you a politician or something??:eek5:


Again I say I make no mention of 'approval' in my post - just curiosity...well that's the way I intended it to appear...

I don't mind being called "Sonny" but "politician" is pretty low. :nono: :killingme

It's an interesting discussion. I don't pretend to know the answers to the world economic situation or even the national one, but I'm happy to engage in the debate and relish in the fodder provided by those arrogant enough to asume that they do have the answers, especially when they are on the political right wing as I see myself as more of a centre-left type of person. It's these sort of discussions that give all of us plenty to think about if we are willing to actually read eachothers views and entertain the possibilty that anyone can have some valid points. That's the stuff that a well rounded and informed world view is made of.

Just sayin'

[Quasievil]

Due to the parochialism of most voters ( especially the right wing ones, it seems ) many people vote less on issues and more on what they were taught to by their Tory prick parents etc "Don't vote for those loonie lefties, son.

mmm those same parents that pay for the loonie lefts social welfare payments every week !!

I say if youre on the bennifit you lose the right to vote...............youre a drain on society !

[FJRider]

see my other post , but if 2 out of your 3 other countires have done similar , chances are your will do the same ...but your quite right untill it IS pear shaped how can one know it will go that way ..

So you base your arguements on "odds" ... and guesswork.


All true, one could assume that the English water company " international water limited " would have enough money and reasons ,, but then again it may not want to buy in ...

political suicide , yes possibly , but if labour continues the madness or doesnt buy back , then someone else is calling the shots ....the bank maybe?

But if Labour "continues the madness" ... that would be entirely dependant on them winning the election. And would show they are in agreement with the policy.

If operational costs are reduced/removed as part of sale conditions ... those costs are not returns as such, but savings. Either way ... it's still money in the bank. If tax breaks are given in return for greater operational costs covered ... The buyer company profit still remains viable. As do returns to goverment coffers.


Where are these saving going to come from ? reduced salaries, reduced services , job cuts or higher charges? If the government gives tax breaks isnt it losing on its return

If condition of sale is that the buyer pays operational costs ... those costs are not paid by our goverment/tax-payer .... Thus they save that money. That is not to say that job cuts wont take place ... that would be up to the buyer to decide. If it would cut their costs ... and still leave them able to provide the service.

If they think they can't ... they won't buy in ... one would think ???


Why did Toll buy Kiwirail? to make money , set up a sub group toll nz and try and run it at a profit , profit being the key word , those profits went ...to australia, was reinvested back into kiwi rail ,,,in fact the ( toll ) won the Rogers award for a few years for being an arse of a company , so did telcom and mighty river power

No help to me , I lost all of my services and the prices went up .....

No doubt Toll thought they would make money ... as to why they didn't ... you'll have to ask them.

As for being no help to you ... I guess you can't please everybody. If this is part of your arguement ... thats is a rather selfish standpoint. No doubt the basis of all the protesters ... as I doubt if any of them have given any thought to a long term benefit the sales may reap. From comments made so far ... the protest is political, rather thand sound reasoning.
Why ... as you suggested earlier when you mentioned Labour may agree with the sales .... or attempt a buy-out. Not that they may have any choice in the matter. A sales agreement ... is a sales agreement .... and binding.[/QUOTE]

[Damantis]

mmm those same parents that pay for the loonie lefts social welfare payments every week !!

I say if youre on the bennifit you lose the right to vote...............youre a drain on society !

It's always so much easier to pick on those who have less, call them a drain, marginalise them, invalidate them as human beings, erode thier rights and feel superior ... till you fall off your motorbike and suddenly need an invalids benefit. Thgen you'll say, "Oh, but I was more productive and paid some tax! I DESERVE a benefit!" Yes, you do deserve one in that situation, but no less than someone who gets made redundant and needs to pay his bills while looking for more work. Fact is, there is a system in place to provide ( a very basic ) income for those who don't have one, for whatever reason that is. As is human nature, there will always be a percentage of people who will abuse that system. Too fucking bad. Suck it up. It's the price we pay to live in a country where we ( God forbid ) actually give a shit about people other than ourselves.It's better than no welfare system at all. Or perhaps we should have a lot more homeless people? Beggars? and the associated increase in crime?

[BoristheBiter]

:killingme fixed that for ya.

Like those who invested in Blue Chip or Bridgecorp or Hanover? SCF gets a special mention because they were bailed out with interest... fuck me that sounds vaguely familiar. Perhaps Mum and Dad need to invest in some of those no lose schemes and as we have a country full of really really clever finance people, put the two together and let's see if we can build something that is too big to fail... until it fails that is, but meh, we might have retired by then and the debt will have been passed on to the next generation to pay off. Fuckin genius suggestion there Boris :niceone:

See you are so blinded by your own shit ideas you think that everyone else is wrong.
Where did I say investing in blue chip or anything else? if you want big returns quickly then you run the risk of loosing it all just as fast.
So like I said if they had made some better decisions on where their money goes then they might have something left to for investing for their future what ever that maybe and it will be different for everyone.



Due to the parochialism of most voters ( especially the right wing ones, it seems ) many people vote less on issues and more on what they were taught to by their Tory prick parents etc "Don't vote for those loonie lefties, son. They'll ruin everything with all that talk of fairness, equality etc. Just vote for the Tories. They are all rich and that's the measure of sucsess in the world. Look son, it's working for us and that's all that matters. Fuck the poor and disadvantaged, they deserve their misfortune and besides, someone has to do all those shitty minimum wage jobs and it sure as fuck shouldn't be us... blah blah ... blame the Maoris ... blame the socialists ... blah blah if we could just genetically farm the underclass and use them as slaves imagine how productive our corporations would be! ... blah blah ... "

You included it would seem

But fuck you seem to a massive chip on your shoulder with English politics as there is no Tory party here just a labour party that is less for the common worker than the Nats are and are more for welfare dependence.

So if you are for more hand outs then just carry on with your wanking left polices and leave the real world to the rest of us.
Some day you might come to realise the difference between a handout and a hand up but I won't hold my breath.

And FYI i voted Labour (like all my family) for the first few times then switched to SC and then the nats so you can take you sanctimonious dribble and shove it up your arse.

God that feels better I'm off for a ride.

[MisterD]

Fuck the poor and disadvantaged, they deserve their misfortune and besides, someone has to do all those shitty minimum wage jobs and it sure as fuck shouldn't be us... blah blah ... blame the Maoris ... blame the socialists ... blah blah if we could just genetically farm the underclass and use them as slaves imagine how productive our corporations would be! ... blah blah ... "

You're a parody wind-up aren't you? You must be, 'cos all that's just the same as "the fuck the tories" on the other foot.

It's not the "tories" that want to keep the underclass down, it's the left-wing parties that have that vested interest - witness the Labour/ Green spat over the "stealing" of their poor brown votes. It's be funny, if it wasn't so sad. The "tories" understand very well that pretty much every person you put on a upwards curve of increasing self reliance and self worth becomes another vote to the right.

And while we're here, have you ever noticed that right-wingers generally respect left-wingers motivations, but just think they're wrong about how to go about achieving improvement whereas the lefties always come with this "evil tories" schtick?

[Damantis]

See you are so blinded by your own shit ideas you think that everyone else is wrong.
Where did I say investing in blue chip or anything else? if you want big returns quickly then you run the risk of loosing it all just as fast.
So like I said if they had made some better decisions on where their money goes then they might have something left to for investing for their future what ever that maybe and it will be different for everyone.




You included it would seem

But fuck you seem to a massive chip on your shoulder with English politics as there is no Tory party here just a labour party that is less for the common worker than the Nats are and are more for welfare dependence.

So if you are for more hand outs then just carry on with your wanking left polices and leave the real world to the rest of us.
Some day you might come to realise the difference between a handout and a hand up but I won't hold my breath.

And FYI i voted Labour (like all my family) for the first few times then switched to SC and then the nats so you can take you sanctimonious dribble and shove it up your arse.

God that feels better I'm off for a ride.

You might have to refuse a handout on ideolgical principle if you do. Or you could just call it a hand up. :killingme

[mashman]

See you are so blinded by your own shit ideas you think that everyone else is wrong.
Where did I say investing in blue chip or anything else? if you want big returns quickly then you run the risk of loosing it all just as fast.
So like I said if they had made some better decisions on where their money goes then they might have something left to for investing for their future what ever that maybe and it will be different for everyone.

:killingme... take yer blinkers off Boris. How many banks have been bailed out over the last 5 years? and what damage has that caused to millions/billions of peoples lives? At least "my" idea negates that possibility... and it certainly doesn't blind me to the reality's of what is going on in the world. Hint for ya big fulla, there is no box to think outside of... just scared narrow minded people with limited imaginations, pathetic ideologies and so fearful of losing what they "have" that they'll do ANYTHING to protect it. Weak weak people.
I mentioned blue chip etc... because they are local examples of company's full of experts with excellent investment opportunities for Mum and Dad investors... and they offered low risk opportunities too. Is your head really so far up your own backside that you believe that there is an investment out there that doesn't bare any risk? Especially given the last 5 years, let alone discounting every recession that has gone before it and the failure of huge company's and the need for austerity in the so called golden age of mankind. Even by my standards that's naive.

[Damantis]

You're a parody wind-up aren't you? You must be, 'cos all that's just the same as "the fuck the tories" on the other foot.

It's not the "tories" that want to keep the underclass down, it's the left-wing parties that have that vested interest - witness the Labour/ Green spat over the "stealing" of their poor brown votes. It's be funny, if it wasn't so sad. The "tories" understand very well that pretty much every person you put on a upwards curve of increasing self reliance and self worth becomes another vote to the right.

And while we're here, have you ever noticed that right-wingers generally respect left-wingers motivations, but just think they're wrong about how to go about achieving improvement whereas the lefties always come with this "evil tories" schtick?

But if anyone gets wound up, I hope they have the brains to think about why that is. Everyone has a vested interest. That's bloody democracy for ya. Checks 'n balances and all that. As for right wingers having more respect? They'd eat the poor if they didn't need someone to mow thier lawns and flip their burgers. I think those on the left are often so passionate that they disrespect those elsewhere on the spectrum, but I think that's generally because they feel disenfranchised and they let their anger shout over their opposition. So what? We have this illusion of democracy and we all make the most of it. Maybe I shouldn't use the word "tories" But it's a term that most will use to describe those of a right wing disposition and if the coat fits... It's no worse than calling lefties socialists. The closer to the edge of the spectrum you get, the truer those two labels become.

[mashman]

You're a parody wind-up aren't you? You must be, 'cos all that's just the same as "the fuck the tories" on the other foot.

It's not the "tories" that want to keep the underclass down, it's the left-wing parties that have that vested interest - witness the Labour/ Green spat over the "stealing" of their poor brown votes. It's be funny, if it wasn't so sad. The "tories" understand very well that pretty much every person you put on a upwards curve of increasing self reliance and self worth becomes another vote to the right.

And while we're here, have you ever noticed that right-wingers generally respect left-wingers motivations, but just think they're wrong about how to go about achieving improvement whereas the lefties always come with this "evil tories" schtick?

PRICELESS!!!!! other than them being as bad as each other in regards to tugging at the heart strings of the voter, the fact that any political party believes that it can change people for the better speaks volumes. So whilst we zig zag from left to right, the world sinks into an even deeper hole. Bloody funny that the right or the left believe that they are correct given that they're both so full of shit that they get to the point where they won't cooperate for the benefit of their voters.

[Nova.]

266439
.................................

listen/watch whole song ooorrrr, 1:20

[puddytat]

Like I said earlier, where has this approach worked?
Ask the English if water privatisation was a good idea.Has their supply got better? Has prices dropped?
I think you right whingers are just clutching at straws if you think that the system which has bankrupted the world twice in the last 100 years is going to fix it. Usually a war is their solution.
You righties show an arrogance towards anyone who doesnt follow youre agenda or who cant afford to. You should learn from history that when you demonise & look down your noses at any one in a lower socioeconomic scale, that they only take it for so long....
And they vote for the left. Socialism is on the increase in Europe....why?:doh:

[carver]

I mean just look at what it's done for Waihi and Huntly! They are just booming, right? :lol:

All this crap about "Mum and Dad investors" is a crock too. Most Kiwis dont even have the 2-3k lying around to spend on shares, and the ones that might, will sell them to offshore interests as soon as a buck can be made so effectively nearly all of the future profits from the SOE's will go to big corporartes. Big corporates who have a track record of fucking the other 99% of the world ever since the industrial revolution started.

huntly doubled in size with the arrival of a power station, and meremere turned into a nigger shithole when the power plant shut down.


Like I said earlier, where has this approach worked?
Ask the English if water privatisation was a good idea.Has their supply got better? Has prices dropped?
I think you right whingers are just clutching at straws if you think that the system which has bankrupted the world twice in the last 100 years is going to fix it. Usually a war is their solution.
You righties show an arrogance towards anyone who doesnt follow youre agenda or who cant afford to. You should learn from history that when you demonise & look down your noses at any one in a lower socioeconomic scale, that they only take it for so long....
And they vote for the left. Socialism is on the increase in Europe....why?:doh:

in Europe, you will find they will arrive on a high tax, hardcore govt control model as a result of the euro crisis, either way, if you want stuff, you got to pay.

I see it this way

The socialist sees the rich and says: make him pay for me and what I want.
So the govt goes and takes by force some of what he has earned.

The Capitalist sees the poor and says, why should I pay for these useless people?
So the govt cuts back on things, and the dependents cry a bit.

It must really suck to depend on the state, I am glad I am reasonably self sufficient.

With big govt comes big control.

[MisterD]

I think you right whingers are just clutching at straws if you think that the system which has bankrupted the world twice in the last 100 years is going to fix it. Usually a war is their solution.

Which is utter, utter, bullshit. Capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty than any other force in the history of mankind.

I highly recommend reading "The Real Crash" by Peter Schiff (you know, the bloke that predicted the financial crisis). The lessons of the great depression aren't what you think they are.


Socialism is on the increase in Europe....why?:doh:

Because dumb deluded electorates will always vote for politicians who promise they can have their cake and eat it too.

[puddytat]

Bloody funny that the right or the left believe that they are correct given that they're both so full of shit that they get to the point where they won't cooperate for the benefit of their voters.

That is the crux of our problems.

[puddytat]

Because dumb deluded electorates will always vote for politicians who promise they can have their cake and eat it too.

right...so righties are no different then.

[mashman]

That is the crux of our problems.

Nahhhh, that can't be the case surely? Just look at the forum full of posters, they're individual thinking intelligent beings who want the best for their country and as such vote in the party that is most likely going to achieve that. How can they all be wrong? let alone those who are actually at the coalface making those decisions and enacting policy to make life better for everyone in the country. Surely it would be madness to ignore a sensible suggestion from a political party just because they are the opposition?

[MisterD]

[QUOTE=puddytat;1130357667]That is the crux of our problems.[/QUOTE

Ya reckon? The only reasons politicians of left and right co-operate, is to stitch everyone up for their own benefit.

The crux of the problem is that no politician will ever dare propose any policy that involves short-term pain for longer term gain. The definition of a bad policy is one that results in the other lot being elected next time.

[Brian d marge]

So you base your arguements on "odds" ... and guesswork.

Nice try , not even worth rising too ,,the evidence I have given many times before . ( I might collect it all and put in me notes)



But if Labour "continues the madness" ... that would be entirely dependant on them winning the election. And would show they are in agreement with the policy. Yes , but why, because the policy is sound OR because they have to

If operational costs are reduced/removed as part of sale conditions ... those costs are not returns as such, but savings. Either way ... it's still money in the bank. If tax breaks are given in return for greater operational costs covered ... The buyer company profit still remains viable. As do returns to goverment coffers.

Companies are there to do one thing , make profit. for example a supermarket is not there to provide you with a health dinner or even a service. They are there to maximise profits . So what will the new water company do .? sure as hell try to maximise profits ( well it should do )



If condition of sale is that the buyer pays operational costs ... those costs are not paid by our goverment/tax-payer .... Thus they save that money. That is not to say that job cuts wont take place ... that would be up to the buyer to decide. If it would cut their costs ... and still leave them able to provide the service

( which should happen in any organisation, but now we add a highly paid CEO , , note to self wonder if the pay rates are similar between civil service )

If they think they can't ... they won't buy in ... one would think ???

No doubt Toll thought they would make money ... as to why they didn't ... you'll have to ask them.

As for being no help to you ... I guess you can't please everybody. If this is part of your arguement ... thats is a rather selfish standpoint. No doubt the basis of all the protesters ... as I doubt if any of them have given any thought to a long term benefit the sales may reap. From comments made so far ... the protest is political, rather thand sound reasoning.

If services I ( or others) rely on are cut or increased in price then isnt a selfish arguement. especially when the pressures on my familys income are rising ...
Yes National did say they were going to sell assets, many people at that time said no .....but

Why ... as you suggested earlier when you mentioned Labour may agree with the sales .... or attempt a buy-out. Not that they may have any choice in the matter. A sales agreement ... is a sales agreement .... and binding.

yes it is binding , once done cannot be reversed without more money ,

History has shown , that it doesnt work , cant think of one case where it has lowered costs and given at the same time a better service ...The countrys that have rejected the IMP/world banks opinions are doing quite well , Argentina for example


Bottom line , you sell the assets , yet the money can and probably will help other areas ( research and development for example ) but the daily utility, prices will go up , , it happened before , in NZ and in other countrys , chances are it will happen again....but the asset has been sold ...its binding .....

I dont think, based on what happened before to NZ and other countries , that the selling of assets is a good idea. I hope to be proven wrong , I really do , but somehow I can see myself in a few years saying "I told you so" ala Acc ....electricity , student loan etc ..

Im quite happy to be proven wrong



Stephen

[Usarka]

I heard a guy on the radio suggesting that customers of Mercury who are against the sales should switch to another provider (eg Meridian who is also an SOE).

[Nova.]

listen/watch whole song ooorrrr, 1:20

woops
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AjgWyxJAGQ&feature=player_embedded

[BoristheBiter]

:killingme... take yer blinkers off Boris. How many banks have been bailed out over the last 5 years? and what damage has that caused to millions/billions of peoples lives? At least "my" idea negates that possibility... and it certainly doesn't blind me to the reality's of what is going on in the world. Hint for ya big fulla, there is no box to think outside of... just scared narrow minded people with limited imaginations, pathetic ideologies and so fearful of losing what they "have" that they'll do ANYTHING to protect it. Weak weak people.
I mentioned blue chip etc... because they are local examples of company's full of experts with excellent investment opportunities for Mum and Dad investors... and they offered low risk opportunities too. Is your head really so far up your own backside that you believe that there is an investment out there that doesn't bare any risk? Especially given the last 5 years, let alone discounting every recession that has gone before it and the failure of huge company's and the need for austerity in the so called golden age of mankind. Even by my standards that's naive.

Yes but your standards are pretty low.

Getting back to the point in this thread, you had your chance to voice your opinion and you chose (well you say you did) not to.
If you felt so strongly on this issue, there seems to be a few of you, maybe you should have voted better.

[mashman]

Yes but your standards are pretty low.

Getting back to the point in this thread, you had your chance to voice your opinion and you chose (well you say you did) not to.
If you felt so strongly on this issue, there seems to be a few of you, maybe you should have voted better.

The least you could try to do is hurdle such a low bar.

Why did you vote for National given that you didn't want asset sales? I see you mentioned you used to be a red like your family, the Social Credit, then the Nats... what drove those changes in your voting stance? Just curious...

My family are "tory", but I've never voted coz there ain't nuffink to vote for. (Even the guy collecting asset sales "protest" signatures at the station understood that.)

[BoristheBiter]

The least you could try to do is hurdle such a low bar.

Why did you vote for National given that you didn't want asset sales? I see you mentioned you used to be a red like your family, the Social Credit, then the Nats... what drove those changes in your voting stance? Just curious...

My family are "tory", but I've never voted coz there ain't nuffink to vote for. (Even the guy collecting asset sales "protest" signatures at the station understood that.)

Mate i wouldn't even have to lift my foot.

Why? I think they are the lesser of two evils. they are more likely to bring us out of the hole that has been dug.
Yes I knew they are going to sell half of the SOE's, had it been a complete sell off i never would have have voted for them.
The one thing they said they would do and haven't is getting rid of the Maori seats. I wonder why.

If Labour had put some money aside over the 9 years they were in power we wouldn't have the massive debt we have today. They have no idea on how to do anything other than hand out bribes for the greedy and they don't seem to be changing.

Use to vote labour as I had been told this was the thing to do (very old English Labour family).
Then changed to SC as they stood the same type of ideals I did (at the time).
Now the Nats as I could see voting for ACT would be a wasted vote. (how apt now it seems)
Next time who know's but I will still stand by the choice I make.

[mashman]

Mate i wouldn't even have to lift my foot.

Why? I think they are the lesser of two evils. they are more likely to bring us out of the hole that has been dug.
Yes I knew they are going to sell half of the SOE's, had it been a complete sell off i never would have have voted for them.
The one thing they said they would do and haven't is getting rid of the Maori seats. I wonder why.

If Labour had put some money aside over the 9 years they were in power we wouldn't have the massive debt we have today. They have no idea on how to do anything other than hand out bribes for the greedy and they don't seem to be changing.

Use to vote labour as I had been told this was the thing to do (very old English Labour family).
Then changed to SC as they stood the same type of ideals I did (at the time).
Now the Nats as I could see voting for ACT would be a wasted vote. (how apt now it seems)
Next time who know's but I will still stand by the choice I make.

So low it's underground eh... fuck yeah that makes it sound cool.

Why are/were they more likely to bring us out of the hole? Especially after they cut their tax revenue at the start of a recession/depression and have to borrow to cover the shortfall. Reports (yes unfortunately I'm "quoting" the media) say 1.1 billion in the first 9 months. Surely that's taking us even further into the hole? It would seem overseas borrowing has trebled under (45 billion as opposed to 15 billion, RBNZ figures that I've posted before) the current govt. Further into the hole? Then bailing out SCF (did they really have to pay interest as well?). Then the earthquakes ($30 billion over 10 years?) and still not a peep in regards to upping taxation, just more borrowing. Further into the hole? Granted the opposition may well have had to borrow from overseas too, but they were also going to tap into a currently untapped revenue source (CGT on housing) as well as others considering a financial transaction tax. Maybe they would have put the tax brackets back too. Granted I see no reason that any party would have done any better than the Nats, but we'd have still had out assets for when the next recession came along.

Ad for the labs. How did they waste their money? When was the last time a govt saved money? Don't they invest it these days?

So you're a flip flop voter who wants his vote to count so badly that you'll only vote for a winner... with a social conscience blip in between times :shifty:. Each to his own I guess :innocent:

[Brian d marge]

Are there any ultilities , ( or any other company for that matter ) that was a government Dept and then went private, that now delivers a cheaper or better service product


Stephen

[FJRider]

Just look at the forum full of posters, they're individual thinking intelligent beings who want the best for their country and as such vote in the party that is most likely going to achieve that. How can they all be wrong? let alone those who are actually at the coalface making those decisions and enacting policy to make life better for everyone in the country. Surely it would be madness to ignore a sensible suggestion from a political party just because they are the opposition?

More and more are voting for political parties that promise/provide policys that suit rhem. Not simply following the "family tradition" of voting ... that they and their familys always had in the past. The "Me first" generation. That doesn't look to change anytime soon.

But the good news is ... the majority voted in National.

I guess most (some) of their policys were to their advantage. If Labour gets voted in come the next election (and I can't see that happening) does anybody really believe they will return to total state owned assets ... as per pre-asset sales ??? I doubt it ...

[mashman]

More and more are voting for political parties that promise/provide policys that suit rhem. Not simply following the "family tradition" of voting ... that they and their familys always had in the past. The "Me first" generation. That doesn't look to change anytime soon.

But the good news is ... the majority voted in National.

I guess most (some) of their policys were to their advantage. If Labour gets voted in come the next election (and I can't see that happening) does anybody really believe they will return to total state owned assets ... as per pre-asset sales ??? I doubt it ...

Gawd I hope you're wrong. I say that because voter turnout is lower than it has been. Whilst that is being attributed to laziness by some, I'm thinking more along the same lines as yourself in regards to people not following the traditional lines of voting and therefore not voting at all because no promise or policy suits them. No doubt that could be seen as wishful thinking, but hey, a man can dream.

I disagree as I don't see their policies as a positive for NZ. I would rather have the higher taxation and higher revenue for the govt to look after the disadvantaged than to borrow from overseas and be in their debt to the extent that we are. Possibly unavoidable, but potentially less so with a CGT and financial transaction tax. I honestly can't see the good in asset sales, socially or financially.

I'm possibly with you on the Nats getting in again, but there much shit slinging to some and with any luck a few more details in regards to the TPP changing that. Although where we'll be in 30 months or so is anyone's guess. You could say that Labour bought back Kiwirail, so resetting the asset sales could be a possibility... although how they'll manage it I don't know. Maybe we'll be so far in the shit at the time that people will be prepared to pay that extra to get us going again. My crystal balls ain't that good though :). With any luck there'll be something else to vote for (I can dream of better things can't I?)

[puddytat]

More and more are voting for political parties that promise/provide policys that suit rhem. Not simply following the "family tradition" of voting ... that they and their familys always had in the past. The "Me first" generation. That doesn't look to change anytime soon.

But the good news is ... the majority voted in National.

I guess most (some) of their policys were to their advantage. If Labour gets voted in come the next election (and I can't see that happening) does anybody really believe they will return to total state owned assets ... as per pre-asset sales ??? I doubt it ...

I sure as hell dont think that Labour will do any such thing.....
Now the Greens I do believe. I predict that its the greens that'll increase thier percentage out of all parties, so much so that it'll invalidate the contribution of Act & NZ Fist & P. Dunne.
Oooh hang on, Ive taken the wrong perscription....Im dreaming.

[FJRider]

Gawd I hope you're wrong.

With local news reports list 4000 protesters total in the nationwide marches (ok the weather was shit in some places ... but with a population base of a bit over 4 million ... the percentage of protesters involved is very low. (Did it make it into your local paper ??)

[puddytat]

With local news reports list 4000 protesters total in the nationwide marches (ok the weather was shit in some places ... but with a population base of a bit over 4 million ... the percentage of protesters involved is very low. (Did it make it into your local paper ??)

Nah, but Sloan Stallone did....

[mashman]

With local news reports list 4000 protesters total in the nationwide marches (ok the weather was shit in some places ... but with a population base of a bit over 4 million ... the percentage of protesters involved is very low. (Did it make it into your local paper ??)

And after all of the talk the first petition I saw was on friday evening on the way home. People have lives to lead and not everyone is a protestor and/or possibly has enough of a dim view of protestors that it'll stop them from joining the ranks of the dirty unemployed scumbags that are often associated with such a pursuit :facepalm:. Perhaps the polls have it wrong? Either way JK and his boys don't seem to want to know, they have their mandate and they will keep their promise. As Billy boy Engrish said, nothing short of a Greece style "rebellion" is going to make them think twice... something he knows this country can't muster due to geography and lack of numbers.

Honestly, I had a quick search on the internet (I don't read papers) to see if there was going to be anything on in Wellie. All I could find was into on the Chch protest... go figure. Dunno if I woulda gone out there though, was up at 2 this morning pukin my guts up and bleeding all over the place.

[blue rider]

Yes, well, having to go to work (for the tax-payer) did rather inconveniently curtail any posts from ME on this thread...<_<


correct me, but is the tax payer for whom you work not also paying you ;)

[scumdog]

correct me, but is the tax payer for whom you work not also paying you ;)

Perzactly what I was trying to convey.

But with less words.

[blue rider]

With local news reports list 4000 protesters total in the nationwide marches (ok the weather was shit in some places ... but with a population base of a bit over 4 million ... the percentage of protesters involved is very low. (Did it make it into your local paper ??)

ah the number games, well 49 % did not vote for Dear Leader (for what ever reason) and have made their displeasure with the National Parties Ideas and Business Plan known when not voting for Dear Leader.


And why does it bother so much, that x- amount of people saw it fit to demonstrate their displeasure with the government. The people have the right to vote, and the right to protest. This is a democracy? No?

But lets not talk about that...Dear Leader has been given a MANDATE.....and a somewhat shaky coalition that will now allow him (or not....) to sell Assets that are not his to sell.

Dear Leader is going to be Dear Leader for another couple of years and then he will be off working for the highest bidder. He does not own the Assets he intends to sell (it does not matter which, Water, Energy, Education, Health etc). The infrastructure was paid and is paid for by Taxpayer, as said by another poster, Mom and Pop and Kiddies Ordinary Citizen already own it.

I today pay taxes for tomorrows services, I do not pay taxes so that Dear Leader can spend a hundred million to buy him self a new Job, once the Dear Leader stint is over.

[Brian d marge]

and doesn’t anyone find it strange that the new man ( Graham wheeler) who will succeed bollard in the treasury , was ex prez of the world bank,

and as an "adviser" , one wonders what kind of advice he might offer?

Stephen

[pete376403]

Are there any ultilities , ( or any other company for that matter ) that was a government Dept and then went private, that now delivers a cheaper or better service product


Stephen
Telecom is the usual answer to that question. Stories of "6 months to get a phone connected when it was NZPO" are trotted out as an example of how bad it was.
No-one ever mentions the millions of dollars spent getting NZPO into a state where it could be sold - once it was polished up and working well why not just keep it?
Also not to mention the many millions of dollars of profit that went overseas once it was sold. Telecom might be not so hot now but in the early days they were regularly reporting profits in the 2 million a DAY range

[Brian d marge]

Telecom is the usual answer to that question. Stories of "6 months to get a phone connected when it was NZPO" are trotted out as an example of how bad it was.
No-one ever mentions the millions of dollars spent getting NZPO into a state where it could be sold - once it was polished up and working well why not just keep it?
Also not to mention the many millions of dollars of profit that went overseas once it was sold. Telecom might be not so hot now but in the early days they were regularly reporting profits in the 2 million a DAY range
yes thought of them , and the why not keep it .....Honestly I have no problem with companies being run as a business , with the profits being plowed back into the SAME business
I have BIG problems being bullied "advised " by offshore interests , and people clipping the ticket.

With telecom , how did they meet the 2 mill a day , by charging a bundle ( pun intended?) or buy reducing costs,,,,,,,better services, all of the above

Stephen
The Roger award goes to........



1997: Tranz Rail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tranz_Rail), New Zealand's largest rail operator
1998: Monsanto Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_Company), a US-based manufacturer of agricultural products
1999: TransAlta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransAlta), a Canadian power company
2000: Tranz Rail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tranz_Rail)
2001: Carter Holt Harvey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Holt_Harvey), a timber company
2002: Tranz Rail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tranz_Rail)
2003: Juken Nissho (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juken_Nissho), a timber company
2004: Telecom New Zealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecom_New_Zealand), New Zealand's largest telco
2005: Bank of New Zealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_New_Zealand) and Westpac (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westpac), banks[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Award#cite_note-3)
2006: Progressive Enterprises (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Enterprises), the largest supermarket operator in New Zealand[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Award#cite_note-4)

Runner-up: Telecom New Zealand
Other finalists: Toll NZ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toll_NZ), ANZ Bank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANZ_Bank), British American Tobacco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_American_Tobacco), Contact Energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_Energy), ABB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABB_Group)


2007: Telecom New Zealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecom_New_Zealand)

Joint runners-up: British American Tobacco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_American_Tobacco) and Spotless (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spotless)
Other finalists: GlaxoSmithKline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlaxoSmithKline), ANZ Bank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANZ_Bank), APN News & Media (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APN_News_%26_Media), Independent Liquor, and Pike River Coal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_River_Coal).


2008: British American Tobacco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_American_Tobacco)

Runner-up: Rio Tinto NZ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Tinto_Alcan)
Business New Zealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_New_Zealand) awarded inaugural Accomplice Award
Other finalists: ANZ Bank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_and_New_Zealand_Banking_Group), Contact Energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_Energy), GlaxoSmithKline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlaxoSmithKline), Infratil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infratil), McDonalds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonalds), Telecom New Zealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecom_New_Zealand).[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Award#cite_note-5)


2009: ANZ Bank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_and_New_Zealand_Banking_Group)

Runner-up: Rio Tinto NZ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Tinto_Alcan)
Accomplice Award: Auckland City Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auckland_City_Council) and its officials
Other finalists: BNZ, Infratil, Newmont (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newmont_Mining_Corporation), Rymans, Telecom, Transpacific and Westpac.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Award#cite_note-6)


2010: Warner Brothers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warner_Brothers)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Award#cite_note-7)

Other finalists: BUPA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BUPA), Imperial Tobacco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Tobacco), Vodafone, Warner Brothers and Westpac


2011: New Zealand Aluminium Smelters Limited (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Aluminium_Smelters_Limited)/Rio Tinto Alcan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Tinto_Alcan) NZ Ltd[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Award#cite_note-8)[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Award#cite_note-9)

Finalists: Adidas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adidas), Newmont Waihi Gold, Oceania, New Zealand Aluminium Smelters Limited (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Aluminium_Smelters_Limited)/Rio Tinto Alcan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Tinto_Alcan) NZ Ltd, Sajo Oyang Corporation, Skycity Entertainment Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skycity_Entertainment_Group), Telecom and Westpac.
Accomplice Award: the Government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_National_Government_of_New_Zealand) (in its own right and accompanying both Sajo Oyang and Telecom).

[FJRider]

ah the number games, well 49 % did not vote for Dear Leader (for what ever reason) and have made their displeasure with the National Parties Ideas and Business Plan known when not voting for Dear Leader.

The % of those that didn't vote ... made the election result .... what it was. I'm sure you thank them for not voting.
ONLY numbers that DID vote count ... AND MATTER ... :killingme


And why does it bother so much, that x- amount of people saw it fit to demonstrate their displeasure with the government. The people have the right to vote, and the right to protest. This is a democracy? No?

It didn't bother me ... I found it a great source of amusement ... for which I thank them ... :killingme


But lets not talk about that...Dear Leader has been given a MANDATE.....and a somewhat shaky coalition that will now allow him (or not....) to sell Assets that are not his to sell.

To quote a fellow KB'r ... Perzactly ... :killingme


The infrastructure was paid and is paid for by Taxpayer, as said by another poster, Mom and Pop and Kiddies Ordinary Citizen already own it.

So if it's paid for ... please explain the billions of $$$ of national (excuse the pun) deficit ... ??? We are all still paying and will continue to do so for some time. :killingme


I today pay taxes for tomorrows services, I do not pay taxes so that Dear Leader can spend a hundred million to buy him self a new Job, once the Dear Leader stint is over.

See above re: Infrastructure paid for.

You are stiil paying for yesterdays services ... the cheque in the mail ??? ... work again tomorrow ... if so, I hope it's a well paying job. :killingme

The paying of taxes (or not) is not a choice ... if you choose to live and work in NZ. It amuses me ... you think it is ... :killingme

[FJRider]

Honestly, I had a quick search on the internet (I don't read papers) to see if there was going to be anything on in Wellie. All I could find was into on the Chch protest... go figure. Dunno if I woulda gone out there though, was up at 2 this morning pukin my guts up and bleeding all over the place.

I hope you are better ... and getting better still. A clear head is better to argue in these forums ... :lol:

[mashman]

The Roger award goes to........


I was working for BUPA in 2010 and they were skint... supposedly.

[mashman]

I hope you are better ... and getting better still. A clear head is better to argue in these forums ... :lol:

Ta... at least I woke up first and didn't redecorate my wife... gotta be glad for some small mercies. There's no argument considering I'm right ;)

[blue rider]

The % of those that didn't vote ... made the election result .... what it was. I'm sure you thank them for not voting.
ONLY numbers that DID vote count ... AND MATTER ... :killingme


It didn't bother me ... I found it a great source of amusement ... for which I thank them ... :killingme



To quote a fellow KB'r ... Perzactly ... :killingme



So if it's paid for ... please explain the billions of $$$ of national (excuse the pun) deficit ... ??? We are all still paying and will continue to do so for some time. :killingme:



See above re: Infrastructure paid for.

You are stiil paying for yesterdays services ... the cheque in the mail ??? ... work again tomorrow ... if so, I hope it's a well paying job. :killingme

The paying of taxes (or not) is not a choice ... if you choose to live and work in NZ. It amuses me ... you think it is ... :killingme


you seem to be easily amused

I pay taxes regardless of where I live...it is the price we pay to live in a society in which not only the most ruthless survive.

I am quite happy to pay for education, as I would like the future generation that will run this country, part of the world, and/or the rest of the world to be educated.

I pay taxes, so that this country, and any other i may live in, is able to provide health care to all its citizens.

I pay taxes, so that this country and any other i may live in (or have lived in) provide for roading, and other means of transportation. The more people use the train/bus/tram, the better for me. I like roads without cars....more fun for me.

I could go on an on about why i pay taxes, it does not bother me the least, as I truly believe that it is the price for a happy, healthy and well to do society.


Re: infrastruction is not paid for? you mean the generations before me and you did not pay taxes, did not build dams, hospitals, schools, roading etc?
All of it was provided by the great "came before us fairy"? :eek5:

i however do not pay taxes to provide a political party with money to sell the family silver in order to do what exactly? Pay back debt? The ones caused by a destroyed city? by bailing out insurance companies that forgot to properly insure their own risk? by bailing out banks that lost gambling in the great bet of derivatives? and credit default swaps? Seriously, i am to believe that?


So really If any party of any country will want me to support the idea that the selling of natural resources on which the well being of the populace depends on is a good thing, that the privatization of the distribution of said natural resources is a good thing than they have to provide me with convincing arguments.

And a plan to finally create jobs with living wages. Because once the water resources, and the hydro dams, and all other "assets" have been sold, we all will need much more money to pay for our Water use, our Electricity, our Tolls our Food etc.

[oldrider]

I sure as hell dont think that Labour will do any such thing.....
Now the Greens I do believe. I predict that its the greens that'll increase thier percentage out of all parties, so much so that it'll invalidate the contribution of Act & NZ Fist & P. Dunne.
Oooh hang on, Ive taken the wrong perscription....Im dreaming.

Actually, I believe you are right on the button ... "Green is the new red" ... It would not surprise me if they really put pressure on Labour in the next election! :sick:

As said earlier, shuffling and rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic ... same difference but it should clear by now that Labour does not and never will deliver!

Any political party in NZ that doesn't pander to the (brain washed) socialist minded electorate is doomed to failure in any election! (or the next)

They are all (including National) publicly leaning left while wondering how to implement sneaky right leaning policies to actually get some forward traction going!

Sort of like trying to secure second base while still keeping their foot on first base ... it always ends up painful! ... for the bloody taxpayer though, damn it! :brick:

Every country in the world is crammed up to it's neck in debt, yes, every country in the world! ... To whom are they in debt? ... IMHO to the "real" 1%! :shifty:

Until financial control is taken away from the "real" 1% and restored to each sovereign nation to control for their own benefit, the politicians of each and every one of those countries shall remain impotent and ineffective!

If you don't believe this by now, just take a look around the world and decide for yourself ... Problems created by man can be solved by man!

Why is this not happening ... who benefits? ... Well it certainly isn't the 99% ... is it! :scratch:

[Brian d marge]

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-world-without-water/

posted in another thread , but basically this is true , ( a bit sensationalist ) , happening in NZ if coca cola build their new plant in Canterbury, you have the chance to stop it now ...

On saying that , we waste too much water , mono cultures ( single crops ) non grey water toilets , watering a non sustainable lawn .......

The sooner people wake up the better

and I think some are

Stephen

ps , the Indian woman Shiva is a double ( i think from memory ) Nobel prize winning nuclear scientist ......so might be a wee bit gifted in the grey matter , before the Illuminati of KB try their hand

[FJRider]

you seem to be easily amused

By people that have little understanding ...


Re: infrastruction is not paid for?

Paid for ... with borrowed money. When are you intending to pay back your share ... ???


i however do not pay taxes to provide a political party with money to sell the family silver in order to do what exactly? Pay back debt? The ones caused by a destroyed city? by bailing out insurance companies that forgot to properly insure their own risk? by bailing out banks that lost gambling in the great bet of derivatives? and credit default swaps? Seriously, i am to believe that?

You pay tax because you have to ... by law. Which is then used by the elected goverment of the people .. and elected members of the political parties ... in the manner to which they are entitled ... under current leglislation.
What you believe those taxes should be spent on (or not), or anything else you believe ... matters little. I doubt if Our Dear Leader cares if you dont like his policies.


So really If any party of any country will want me to support the idea that the selling of natural resources on which the well being of the populace depends on is a good thing, that the privatization of the distribution of said natural resources is a good thing than they have to provide me with convincing arguments.

Refer to above. re: my comment on ... What you believe ...

They are the elected (by the people) goverment ... and acting within current legislation guidelines ...

Don't like it ... vote them out next election.


And a plan to finally create jobs with living wages. Because once the water resources, and the hydro dams, and all other "assets" have been sold, we all will need much more money to pay for our Water use, our Electricity, our Tolls our Food etc.

Ask your boss for a pay rise ... it might come in handy later .... ok ... SOON

[FJRider]

Ta... at least I woke up first and didn't redecorate my wife... gotta be glad for some small mercies. There's no argument considering I'm right ;)

She would be more pleased than you for that I'm sure ... blood is difficult to wash out. And the pain of your broken bones would be hard to bear for her. You might have had to leave ... (if only on a stretcher)

You're only right if you agree with me ... :innocent:

[Quasievil]

It's always so much easier to pick on those who have less, call them a drain, marginalise them, invalidate them as human beings, erode thier rights and feel superior

Yes it is easier, as they have less and they often invalidate themselves as Human Beings all by their lazy arse selfs
And yes Im superior, I have never been on a bennifit





... till you fall off your motorbike and suddenly need an invalids benefit. Thgen you'll say, "Oh, but I was more productive and paid some tax! I DESERVE a benefit!"

No because I have had a Job and dont expect anything from the Government in the way of support I have Insurance, Health, Income, you see this is what a responsible hard working NZr does.


Fact is, there is a system in place to provide ( a very basic ) income for those who don't have one, for whatever reason that is. As is human nature, there will always be a percentage of people who will abuse that system. Too fucking bad. Suck it up.

Nope you dont work you dont contribute = you dont Vote.
This country has been held back by PC fucking unemployed Bludgers for decades, fuck em...............they can get over it !!



It's the price we pay to live in a country where we ( God forbid ) actually give a shit about people other than ourselves.It's better than no welfare system at all. Or perhaps we should have a lot more homeless people? Beggars? and the associated increase in crime?

IS it better to live in a country that encourages masses to suckle on the tax payers teat indefinitely, encouraging ZERO personal growth

Nope

p.s there are beggars everywhere anyway !!

[BoristheBiter]

So low it's underground eh... fuck yeah that makes it sound cool.

Why are/were they more likely to bring us out of the hole? Especially after they cut their tax revenue at the start of a recession/depression and have to borrow to cover the shortfall. Reports (yes unfortunately I'm "quoting" the media) say 1.1 billion in the first 9 months. Surely that's taking us even further into the hole? It would seem overseas borrowing has trebled under (45 billion as opposed to 15 billion, RBNZ figures that I've posted before) the current govt. Further into the hole? Then bailing out SCF (did they really have to pay interest as well?). Then the earthquakes ($30 billion over 10 years?) and still not a peep in regards to upping taxation, just more borrowing. Further into the hole? Granted the opposition may well have had to borrow from overseas too, but they were also going to tap into a currently untapped revenue source (CGT on housing) as well as others considering a financial transaction tax. Maybe they would have put the tax brackets back too. Granted I see no reason that any party would have done any better than the Nats, but we'd have still had out assets for when the next recession came along.

Ad for the labs. How did they waste their money? When was the last time a govt saved money? Don't they invest it these days?

So you're a flip flop voter who wants his vote to count so badly that you'll only vote for a winner... with a social conscience blip in between times :shifty:. Each to his own I guess :innocent:

Yes they were/are as Labours grand plan was to borrow even more money, put up the pension age and bring on CGT
Guess what other country's have done that, If you said Greece you would be right (not the CGT bit)
I have never been in favor of bailing out anyone

Politics is all about compromise as you will never find a party that you agree with all they say/do.

And I have never had a social conscience, I voted of SC as like ACT they wanted to lock criminals away.
I may change how I vote but at least I do :motu:

[oldrider]

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-world-without-water/

With all due respect BD, the opening scenes of the video explain what the real problem is, the people have no water no work and apparently no hope!

Directly behind the man getting out of bed is a high mountain range, covered in snow and ice ... water!

The only ingredients required to fill all their needs are there except "money" a man made book keeping service!

That which is socially, physically and spiritually possible and desirable, should be made financially possible ... and this is a perfect example!

The only thing that prevents them from having all the water they need, is greed, yes, the greed of the 1% who control the worlds monetary systems.

The real 1% (who keep the world dancing to their own tune for their own benefit!) prevent these thing from materialising by creating "all" new money or credit ... as an interest bearing debt!

This initial man made act commences the choking cost debt spiral that eventually drives world monetary system into eventual bankruptcy!

What's in it for the 1%?

Power, control and never ever having to want for anything ever again ... IMO, :facepalm: the worst form of slavery, ever!

[mashman]

She would be more pleased than you for that I'm sure ... blood is difficult to wash out. And the pain of your broken bones would be hard to bear for her. You might have had to leave ... (if only on a stretcher)

You're only right if you agree with me ... :innocent:

:killingme it certainly wouldn't have been a pretty site... and it being dark I wouldn't have seen it coming either.

Damn, there's always someone who knows better... or at least thinks they do.


Yes they were/are as Labours grand plan was to borrow even more money, put up the pension age and bring on CGT
Guess what other country's have done that, If you said Greece you would be right (not the CGT bit)
I have never been in favor of bailing out anyone

Politics is all about compromise as you will never find a party that you agree with all they say/do.

And I have never had a social conscience, I voted of SC as like ACT they wanted to lock criminals away.
I may change how I vote but at least I do :motu:

I seem to remember Goff saying that he'd borrow $20 billion, you could argue that he was up front about it... meanwhile the current govt are $30 billion and counting.
The UK are in the throws of upping the pension age. They also have a CGT. I don't agree with the pension age rise, but I've lived with a CGT before and saw minimal pain even though I only ever sold 1 house. Bring it in if it means borrowing less... and you can be damn sure I'd back a financial transaction tax if it removes GST from the equation.

That's been true so far, probably will stay that way until people start looking out for people instead of believing that the all powerful economy is what is required for people to be looked after successfully. So I see no reason that I should vote for such insanity, just because I can choose the lesser of any evil.

I'm more than happy for criminals/people to be locked away, but that's becoming less and less of a want these days... primarily see ways of nullifying the need to commit the crimes in the first place, or at least accepting some "criminal" behaviour with certain conditions. If I can think of these things, my low bar n all, then the only excuse the rest of them have left is because they have entitlement issues. Moderately amusing given that that's what they accuse the "bludgers" of. There shouldn't be compromise where there is an obvious course of action to be taken. Unfortunately that requires the removal of self "aspiration".

[Brian d marge]

With all due respect BD, the opening scenes of the video explain what the real problem is, the people have no water no work and apparently no hope!

Directly behind the man getting out of bed is a high mountain range, covered in snow and ice ... water!

The only ingredients required to fill all their needs are there except "money" a man made book keeping service!

That which is socially, physically and spiritually possible and desirable, should be made financially possible ... and this is a perfect example!

The only thing that prevents them from having all the water they need, is greed, yes, the greed of the 1% who control the worlds monetary systems.

The real 1% (who keep the world dancing to their own tune for their own benefit!) prevent these thing from materializing by creating "all" new money or credit ... as an interest bearing debt!

This initial man made act commences the choking cost debt spiral that eventually drives world monetary system into eventual bankruptcy!

What's in it for the 1%?

Power, control and never ever having to want for anything ever again ... IMO, :facepalm: the worst form of slavery, ever!

Yes I agree ,, these types of documentary film tend to be , as I said ,,a bit sensationalist , but the basic premise is true; ( except those mountains are pretty damn big !!!)

you privatize the industry , ( started way before margret and ronnie) let companies who specialize , do what they do best . and then everyone is happy. and probably if people could afford the water , then yes a brand new system of good clean water would appear and it would work .....
but the other factors come into play , they dont earn enough to afford the utility in the first place , as you pointed out ,
Now its all a matter of degrees
One of the persons speaking on that Video , Shiva ( the red dot lady ) runs a seed recovery farm in india , and has stuck it to monsanto , a few times ,,go that woman ( she also is physicist.)
Unfortunately , while things such as say education aren’t essential ( you wont get sick if you don’t get ejamakated ) , Water is , and in this day and age electricity is becoming so ,

So I say again ,please do not sell your assets , it will be a mistake New Zealand (ers) will regret . Some NEED to be run as a state dept , with a separate independent watchdog ( with teeth)

Water is one
Stephen

Ps , Farmers can pull their socks up , the amount they waste , and as for watering the lawn in chch....grrrrr

[Brian d marge]

Ps , I threw down the gauntlet , to those who want to privatize,,,we hat one possible Telecom

I get , flack from some for not providing evidence , which is so far removed from the truth ,

yet when I ask ,,,,silence

I thought as much

Stephen

Question , Which companies SOE have after privatization , provided a better/cheaper service as per the mantra of the new right ?

1. Telecom at some stage , but the question remain how

[oldrider]

Question , Which companies SOE have after privatization , provided a better/cheaper service as per the mantra of the new right ?

Electricity was never "privatised" it was "deregulated" and the government grabbed a bigger slice of the pie than they ever had previously!

[Brian d marge]

Electricity was never "privatised" it was "deregulated" and the government grabbed a bigger slice of the pie than they ever had previously!

Snip from wiki


New Zealand's electrical energy generation, previously state-owned as in most countries, was corporatised, deregulated and partly sold off over the last two decades of the twentieth century, following a model typical in the Western world. However, much of the generation and retail sectors, as well as the entire transmission sector, remains under government ownership as state-owned enterprises (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-owned_enterprises_of_New_Zealand).
The reformist Fourth Labour Government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Labour_Government_of_New_Zealand) corporatised the Electricity Division as a State Owned Enterprise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-owned_enterprises_of_New_Zealand) in 1987, as the Electricity Corporation of New Zealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_Corporation_of_New_Zealand) (ECNZ), which traded for a period as Electricorp. The Fourth National Government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_National_Government_of_New_Zealand) went further, reforming EPBs and MEDs to become commercial companies in charge of distribution and retailing.
In 1994, ECNZ's transmission business was split off as Transpower (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpower_New_Zealand_Limited). In 1996, ECNZ was split again, with a new generation business, Contact Energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_Energy), being formed. The Fourth National Government privatised Contact Energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_Energy) in 1999. From 1 April 1999, the remainder of ECNZ was split again, with the major assets formed into three new SOEs (Mighty River Power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mighty_River_Power), Genesis Power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_Power) and Meridian Energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_Energy)) and with the minor assets being sold off.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_New_Zealand#cite_note-9) On the same date, local power companies were reformed to separate distribution and retailing, with the retail side of the business sold off, mainly to generation companies.

Question still stands

Stephen

[mashman]

Just been chatting with a colleague over smoko and he mentioned this: The Shock Doctrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shock_Doctrine)... scarey enough to read on Wiki let alone in paper back. He offered me the book but I turned him down, most likely from a keeping my sanity perspective, but more likely because I have no doubt that these tactics are used by those who you cannot deny.

See also highlights: Shock therapy (economics) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_therapy_(economics))... I found the second paragraph particularly apt given the pace of change being rammed through by our dear glorious cunt head, sorry, leader.

"In economics, shock therapy refers to the sudden release of price and currency controls, withdrawal of state subsidies, and immediate trade liberalization within a country, usually also including large scale privatization of previously public owned assets.
There are two types of shock therapy. The first was championed by economist Milton Friedman and which later became absorbed into the group of ideas that formed neoliberalism. The second was championed by economist Jeffrey Sachs. The chief difference between the two types of shock therapy is the emphasis on economic liberalisation. Neoliberal shock therapy views economic stability as an outcome of economic liberalisation, while Sachs' shock therapy views liberalisation as a necessary means to economic stabilisation. The neoliberal variant of shock therapy argues that government intervention is the cause of all economic and monetary chaos, and therefore rapid economic liberalisation (shock therapy) is always the best answer to such chaos, and always includes the large scale privatisation of publicly owned assets. Sach's ideas are based on studying historic periods of monetary and economic crisis and noting that a decisive stroke could end monetary chaos, often in a day."

Unfortunately the only response I can muster at the moment is Baaaaaa, baaaaaa, baaaaaa accompanied with a smug feeling of I knew it was true. It would seem that some are celebrated for suggesting such irresponsible behaviour towards their fellow man for financial gain. Perhaps I will get the book off him... it could speed my heading to the dole up.

Governing by textbook. Pathetic weak men.

[Brian d marge]

Just been chatting with a colleague over smoko and he mentioned this: The Shock Doctrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shock_Doctrine)... scarey enough to read on Wiki let alone in paper back. He offered me the book but I turned him down, most likely from a keeping my sanity perspective, but more likely because I have no doubt that these tactics are used by those who you cannot deny.

See also highlights: Shock therapy (economics) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_therapy_%28economics%29)... I found the second paragraph particularly apt given the pace of change being rammed through by our dear glorious cunt head, sorry, leader.
.

I just opened the wifes credit card bill ...FK ME !

Stephen

[oldrider]

Snip from wiki


New Zealand's electrical energy generation, previously state-owned as in most countries, was corporatised, deregulated and partly sold off over the last two decades of the twentieth century, following a model typical in the Western world. However, much of the generation and retail sectors, as well as the entire transmission sector, remains under government ownership as state-owned enterprises (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-owned_enterprises_of_New_Zealand).
The reformist Fourth Labour Government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Labour_Government_of_New_Zealand) corporatised the Electricity Division as a State Owned Enterprise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-owned_enterprises_of_New_Zealand) in 1987, as the Electricity Corporation of New Zealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_Corporation_of_New_Zealand) (ECNZ), which traded for a period as Electricorp. The Fourth National Government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_National_Government_of_New_Zealand) went further, reforming EPBs and MEDs to become commercial companies in charge of distribution and retailing.
In 1994, ECNZ's transmission business was split off as Transpower (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpower_New_Zealand_Limited). In 1996, ECNZ was split again, with a new generation business, Contact Energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_Energy), being formed. The Fourth National Government privatised Contact Energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_Energy) in 1999. From 1 April 1999, the remainder of ECNZ was split again, with the major assets formed into three new SOEs (Mighty River Power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mighty_River_Power), Genesis Power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_Power) and Meridian Energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_Energy)) and with the minor assets being sold off.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_New_Zealand#cite_note-9) On the same date, local power companies were reformed to separate distribution and retailing, with the retail side of the business sold off, mainly to generation companies.

Question still stands

Stephen

True and as you can easily deduct, Contact (including a few other miner players) was but a small portion of the total and never ever provided enough clout to promote real competition in the market, the government owned a dominant proportion of the market!

The SOE's were almost ready for sale when Labour came back into office (1999) but they were back on the socialist trail again so simply gathered them all back into a "Claytons" monopoly and creamed the consumer with constant price hikes!

There wasn't much "privatisation" going on, despite the industry being deregulated!

[BoristheBiter]

Learning by propaganda textbook. Pathetic weak man.


Fixed that for you.

[mashman]

I just opened the wifes credit card bill ...FK ME !

Stephen

Stop looking at it then ya bloody eeejit... it ain't gonna just magically go away now is it... and as we all know, ignorance is bliss :innocent:


Fixed that for you.

Case in point :shifty: ahhhhh I remember the days of snuggly it isn't happening blaaaaanket. Turns out thaaaaaat it never stopped haaaaaappening. Now where did I put that tin foil haaaaaat... oh yeah, I threw it out when I realised that groups of people with more money thaaaaaan they know what to with found a use for it and started crashing economies to prove a point... leaving us with this glorious society thaaaaaat we haaaaaave today.

[Brian d marge]

And America is putting Tariffs on its internet ,,,YEEEAHHHHHAAAAA

Stephen

[BoristheBiter]

Case in point :shifty: ahhhhh I remember the days of snuggly it isn't happening blaaaaanket. Turns out thaaaaaat it never stopped haaaaaappening. Now where did I put that tin foil haaaaaat... oh yeah, I threw it out when I realised that groups of people with more money thaaaaaan they know what to with found a use for it and started crashing economies to prove a point... leaving us with this glorious society thaaaaaat we haaaaaave today.

No, sounds like that tin foil hat is still firmly in place.

[mashman]

No, sounds like that tin foil hat is still firmly in place.

heh heh... sure it is.

"Permit me to issue and control the money of the nation and I care not who makes its laws." — Mayer Amsched Rothchild

"If my sons did not want wars, there would be none." - Gutle Schnaper, Mayer Amschel Rothschild’s wife

"Whoever controls the volume of money in our country is absolute master of all industry and commerce and when you realize that the entire system is very easily controlled, one way or another, by a few powerful men at the top, you will not have to be told how periods of inflation and depression originate." - President James A. Garfield

and many many many more wise words from wise people back in the day when the "big players" knew exactly who each other were, give or take... but I'm sure it was an in joke 160 years ago :facepalm:

In all honesty, I don't care who the fuck C is, but make no mistake that these cunts exist for themselves (with hoards of pathetic wannabes, ya know, capitalists :shifty:) and to their own ends... happily ruining the lives of billions with a single financial transaction. I'd kinda like to get out from under those coat tails to see what we're really capable of.

[Brian d marge]

heh heh... sure it is.

"Permit me to issue and control the money of the nation and I care not who makes its laws." — Mayer Amsched Rothchild

"If my sons did not want wars, there would be none." - Gutle Schnaper, Mayer Amschel Rothschild’s wife

"Whoever controls the volume of money in our country is absolute master of all industry and commerce and when you realize that the entire system is very easily controlled, one way or another, by a few powerful men at the top, you will not have to be told how periods of inflation and depression originate." - President James A. Garfield

and many many many more wise words from wise people back in the day when the "big players" knew exactly who each other were, give or take... but I'm sure it was an in joke 160 years ago :facepalm:

In all honesty, I don't care who the fuck C is, but make no mistake that these cunts exist for themselves (with hoards of pathetic wannabes, ya know, capitalists :shifty:) and to their own ends... happily ruining the lives of billions with a single financial transaction. I'd kinda like to get out from under those coat tails to see what we're really capable of.

must spread the love , blah blah

Self sufficiency or as near to damn it as you can get ;

use the system and be aware ...time for me list again ..hang on

Challenge the TINA ( there is no alternative ) syndrome .. ( again not I am not sure )
* Promote informed debate and critique ..
* Promote participatory democracy ..
* Embrace the Treaty of Waitangi as a liberating force ..
* Encourage progressive counter-nationalism ..
* Develop multi-level strategies ..
* Hold the line ..
* Localise politics ..
* Ginger up party politics ..
* Invest in the future ..
* Support those who speak out ..
* Promote ethical investment ..
* Think global, act local ..
* Think local, act global ..

Stephen

Ps its friggen hot here ,

[mashman]

Are we talking at a country level here? If so I'd like to answer by applying the principles of NOW ;)


must spread the love , blah blah

Self sufficiency or as near to damn it as you can get ; No problem, just balance the imports and exports. Done.

use the system and be aware No problem, just balance the imports and exports so as not to cause a financial shock on the global financial economy. Done.

...time for me list again ..hang on

Challenge the TINA ( there is no alternative ) syndrome .. ( again not I am not sure ) I'm doing it NOW, hee hee
* Promote informed debate and critique .. Absolutely. RFID card each to log on to a website for voting/suggesting "policy"
* Promote participatory democracy .. .. Absolutely. RFID card each to log on to a website for voting on policy
* Embrace the Treaty of Waitangi as a liberating force .. .. Absolutely. Ditch the "white mans" constitution and laws as they'd be useless in a non financial economy
* Encourage progressive counter-nationalism .. The treaty of Waitangi and associated principles should accomplish that
* Develop multi-level strategies .. Absolutely. RFID card each to log on to a website for voting/suggesting "policy"
* Hold the line .. The treaty of Waitangi and associated principles should accomplish that
* Localise politics .. Absolutely. RFID card each to log on to a website for voting/suggesting local "policy"
* Ginger up party politics .. Abolish party politics and use the democratic principle of voting/suggesting "policy" (party's would be counter intuitive/productive?
* Invest in the future .. Free education, healthcare, a huge drop in crime, no poverty etc... Equity (maybe even stop this definitive age for school nonsense?)
* Support those who speak out .. Absolutely. No point in discounting an "argument" if it's a good one
* Promote ethical investment .. The treaty of Waitangi and associated principles should accomplish that
* Think global, act local .. NOW you're just getting me wet (become the model for true (or as close to) civilisation)
* Think local, act global .. I think I just had a big boys accident

Stephen Gordon

Ps its friggen hot here , It's fuckin miserable here

I'm game :)

aaaaaaaaand my apologies to those in the white universe.

A simple idea in regards to food production. 1 or 2 people per street, more if they fancy, could create/plant/maintain everyone's vege patches.

[BoristheBiter]

heh heh... sure it is.

"Permit me to issue and control the money of the nation and I care not who makes its laws." — Mayer Amsched Rothchild

"If my sons did not want wars, there would be none." - Gutle Schnaper, Mayer Amschel Rothschild’s wife

"Whoever controls the volume of money in our country is absolute master of all industry and commerce and when you realize that the entire system is very easily controlled, one way or another, by a few powerful men at the top, you will not have to be told how periods of inflation and depression originate." - President James A. Garfield

and many many many more wise words from wise people back in the day when the "big players" knew exactly who each other were, give or take... but I'm sure it was an in joke 160 years ago :facepalm:

In all honesty, I don't care who the fuck C is, but make no mistake that these cunts exist for themselves (with hoards of pathetic wannabes, ya know, capitalists :shifty:) and to their own ends... happily ruining the lives of billions with a single financial transaction. I'd kinda like to get out from under those coat tails to see what we're really capable of.


And who gives these people power? The ones that want to borrow.

"I owe no one so no one has power over me" - Boris the biter.

[Robert Taylor]

I guess we'll see to what degree of public support of Goverment now holds ... after the next election.

The reality is we need a right wing anti PC Government with balls, one that will also have no time for reverse racism

[oldrider]

"I owe no one so no one has power over me" - Boris the biter.

If only that was true ... if you don't owe a bean and have nothing else to your name, the truth is, that you can not afford to die! :eek5:

We have been checking this out a bit lately (for obvious reasons) and it's not a good look at all!

We, the ordinary taxpayer, are getting screwed in every bloody direction!

If you don't owe anyone a bean and you do have some assets, it just gets worse and starts to get accumulative! (like rates etc)

Even the homeless people have a price on their heads and if they don't pay up at the time of their demise ... "we have to", through tax, rates and other god-damn levies that the "authorities" invent to force "us" to pay! :nono:

[Robert Taylor]

If only that was true ... if you don't owe a bean and have nothing else to your name, the truth is, that you can not afford to die! :eek5:

We have been checking this out a bit lately (for obvious reasons) and it's not a good look at all!

We, the ordinary taxpayer, are getting screwed in every bloody direction!

If you don't owe anyone a bean and you do have some assets, it just gets worse and starts to get accumulative! (like rates etc)

Even the homeless people have a price on their heads and if they don't pay up at the time of their demise ... "we have to", through tax, rates and other god-damn levies that the "authorities" invent to force "us" to pay! :nono:

Yep, there are those that work for a living, and those that vote for a living.

[Brian d marge]

The reality is we need a right wing anti PC Government with balls, one that will also have no time for reverse racism

you dont know what your talking about ...

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

And who gives these people power? The ones that want to borrow.

"I owe no one so no one has power over me" - Boris the biter.

dont force me to agree with you , next it will be green , , I haven’t talked to the wife , but next time I do Ill ask if Hell has indeed frozen over

Stephen

[mashman]

And who gives these people power? The ones that want to borrow.

"I owe no one so no one has power over me" - Boris the biter.

I agree... the alternative is to take whatever I want for a living. Some do that quite well... Tis a shame not everyone can borrow.

Do you own your house and the land it's on? Could anyone just take it away from you if they wanted to?

[Robert Taylor]

I agree... the alternative is to take whatever I want for a living. Some do that quite well... Tis a shame not everyone can borrow.

Do you own your house and the land it's on? Could anyone just take it away from you if they wanted to?

Yes I do, but some racist grouping wants to own the water table beneath it..........

[mashman]

Yes I do, but some racist grouping wants to own the water table beneath it..........

I thought you only had the rights to your land? Surely no one owns the land? I'd rather the water was "protected" than exploited for financial gain. That being the case, give it to the "racists", let the business fraternity pile some money into desalination.

[Robert Taylor]

you dont know what your talking about ...

Stephen

I beg to differ, Ive been around long enough to in my lifetime suffer too many left wing ''Governments'' but also a number of right of centre administrations that arent ballsy enough to do what really needs to be done.
Margaret Thatcher is living proof of an effective leader running a successful administration, we need more with her guts and determination.

[BoristheBiter]

dont force me to agree with you , next it will be green , , I haven’t talked to the wife , but next time I do Ill ask if Hell has indeed frozen over

Stephen

That's OK, I agreed with Quasievil yesterday so went and up'ed my meds.


I agree... the alternative is to take whatever I want for a living. Some do that quite well... Tis a shame not everyone can borrow.

Do you own your house and the land it's on? Could anyone just take it away from you if they wanted to?

The ones that borrow are the shame, that's what gives them the power.
Could they take it? They could try but I would take a few with me.

[BoristheBiter]

If only that was true ... if you don't owe a bean and have nothing else to your name, the truth is, that you can not afford to die! :eek5:


If I'm dead I couldn't care less what they did with me.
If they go by my will it will be on a bonfire at the bottom of the garden.
If not someone else can pay for it.

[Berries]

Margaret Thatcher is living proof of an effective leader running a successful administration, we need more with her guts and determination.
Don't suppose I can interest you in a t-shirt then?

[mashman]

The ones that borrow are the shame, that's what gives them the power.
Could they take it? They could try but I would take a few with me.

You wouldn't be where you are today without borrowing. Not you personally, but undoubtedly somewhere in the chain of your meteoric rise borrowing was involved.
I'll wait til you're asleep and sneak in :innocent:

[Brian d marge]

I beg to differ, Ive been around long enough to in my lifetime suffer too many left wing ''Governments'' but also a number of right of centre administrations that arent ballsy enough to do what really needs to be done.
Margaret Thatcher is living proof of an effective leader running a successful administration, we need more with her guts and determination.
Excuse me , you were a kiwi on the big OE , you weren’t born and have family , I was born and bred in west ham and that "woman" did a lot of damage; she was a good talker , and yes Britain needed a change , but that was just wrong

You are the same age as me , and again I say you don’t know what you are talking about ,

Stephen

ps , if you can name her favorite book , AND have read it , you might have had second thoughts about her ..( still a wonderfull speaker though)

[BoristheBiter]

You wouldn't be where you are today without borrowing. Not you personally, but undoubtedly somewhere in the chain of your meteoric rise borrowing was involved.
I'll wait til you're asleep and sneak in :innocent:

Yes the government, for roads and hospitals, infrastructure etc.
Just make sure you feed the dogs on the way in or you wont get back out, well not in one piece.



Excuse me , you were a kiwi on the big OE , you weren’t born and have family , I was born and bred in west ham and that "woman" did a lot of damage; she was a good talker , and yes Britain needed a change , but that was just wrong

You are the same age as me , and again I say you don’t know what you are talking about ,

Stephen

ps , if you can name her favorite book , AND have read it , you might have had second thoughts about her ..( still a wonderfull speaker though)

The day of the Jackal, and what is the point you are trying to make, it's a good book.

No I wasn't around in the UK when Maggie was in but a lot of people I know were ( i have read her book) and apart from the mines and pole tax they have some good things to say.
Maybe it was because like now some hard decisions need to be made that not many people are going to like but needs to be done.

[FJRider]

The ones that borrow are the shame, that's what gives them the power.


Borrowing is not the problem ... it's the terms of pay-back is the killer ...

Those that believe they have a "Share" in the existing infrastructure and industry, because they paid taxes, also have a share in the debt/repayment of the finance that originally paid for it. Regardles if you agreed (or not) with it at the time. Or even alive (or not) at the time.

[Robert Taylor]

Excuse me , you were a kiwi on the big OE , you weren’t born and have family , I was born and bred in west ham and that "woman" did a lot of damage; she was a good talker , and yes Britain needed a change , but that was just wrong

You are the same age as me , and again I say you don’t know what you are talking about ,

Stephen

ps , if you can name her favorite book , AND have read it , you might have had second thoughts about her ..( still a wonderfull speaker though)

I lived and worked there in the 80s for 5 years and easily got a good job when there were 3 million unemployed on the backs of a defeated Labour Govt that had to go cap in hand to the IMF. Perhaps because unlike a lot of their population I was prepared to work I prospered. And I assimilated much moreso into British life than most Kiwis / Ockers on ''standard'' short OE. I was there long enough to form a very firm opinion of their issues and resolutely stick to that.
The biggest shame of all is that Britain mainly vilified the man they really needed, Enoch Powell.
Gordon Brown is far and away the biggest recent villian in contemporary British political history.

[BoristheBiter]

Borrowing is not the problem ... it's the terms of pay-back is the killer ...

Those that believe they have a "Share" in the existing infrastructure and industry, because they paid taxes, also have a share in the debt/repayment of the finance that originally paid for it. Regardles if you agreed (or not) with it at the time. Or even alive (or not) at the time.

But you don't borrow then there are no terms.

The comment to mash was just a throw away one as we could never keep tabs on what the previous generations have paid for, some with more than money, or what the future will need.
I guess it is why I get pissed when people say we should stop the super.

[Robert Taylor]

Borrowing is not the problem ... it's the terms of pay-back is the killer ...

Those that believe they have a "Share" in the existing infrastructure and industry, because they paid taxes, also have a share in the debt/repayment of the finance that originally paid for it. Regardles if you agreed (or not) with it at the time. Or even alive (or not) at the time.

Those are all very good points and in a wider context we are all complicit in the situation the world finds itself in.

[MisterD]

But you don't borrow then there are no terms.

The comment to mash was just a throw away one as we could never keep tabs on what the previous generations have paid for, some with more than money, or what the future will need.
I guess it is why I get pissed when people say we should stop the super.

It's amazing that people get pissed about that, but not about Governments and central banks systematically inflating the currency and devaluing everyone's savings...

I hope your savings are in tangible things like productive land and gold, otherwise you're as much under the thumb as the next bloke.

[Brian d marge]

The day of the Jackal, and what is the point you are trying to make, it's a good book.
.
If you knew the book she liked you would know: how she was and what she liked ... Hint it was about economics ......

As for Enoch Powell , having read that speech a few times , I know what he is driving at , but England is and always will be a place where you are free to come and practice your religion , Huguenot in the 1700s ..poles now , England has never been made up of white Celtic protestants/ even Anglo Saxons are from across the ditch

Finally on saying All of that I wouldn’t live in England now, as the economics of the new right , have made a country of have and have nots and you need according to The round-tree foundation 680 pounds a week to break even ....well done Margret and New Labour

Stephen

Links;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP7fETsKYkA&feature=related ( unfortunate choice of words )

http://mis.jrf.org.uk/ (http://mis.jrf.org.uk/)

[puddytat]

It's amazing that people get pissed about that, but not about Governments and central banks systematically inflating the currency and devaluing everyone's savings...

I hope your savings are in tangible things like productive land and gold, otherwise you're as much under the thumb as the next bloke.

Aint that the truth......

Just because you own your own home (no mortgage) doesnt necessarily guarantee you'll also be able to enjoy it when you retire....there are pensioners all around the country (& bussinesses) who struggle with the continued rate increases & more importantly the ongoing "Value" ascertained by is it Quotable Values? Which is no way entwined with the council. Its in their interest to see values rising.When the house next door sells on a high, bad luck to you who's still living in a house with the 1970's decor....

John Key shows his arrogance once again by saying that Court action is as likely to be sucessful as an Asteroid hitting the Planet.
Keep it up you smug fuck,your ego & flippant remarks are all that's needed to get more people on the street...:clap:

[puddytat]

Finally on saying All of that I wouldn’t live in England now, as the economics of the new right , have made a country of have and have nots and you need according to The round-tree foundation 680 pounds a week to break even ....well done Margret and New Labour

Stephen

Links;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP7fETsKYkA&feature=related ( unfortunate choice of words )

http://mis.jrf.org.uk/ (http://mis.jrf.org.uk/)

In the tourist trade it is the English middle to uppper class that for us are one of our biggest customers.The majority fear what the country has become.They are as disolusioned as we. They are fucking scared shittless by the thugs & the drugs & a country thats only a shooting away from riots on any day. If you think the right wing'll stop that, youre dreaming...it'll lead to a revolution, a red revolution where everyone will have to drink Velluto Rosso.
They have raped & pillaged across the globe for centuries , look where its got them.
But before we forget, this thread is about NZ

[BoristheBiter]

In the tourist trade it is the English middle to uppper class that for us are one of our biggest customers.The majority fear what the country has become.They are as disolusioned as we. They are fucking scared shittless by the thugs & the drugs & a country thats only a shooting away from riots on any day. If you think the right wing'll stop that, youre dreaming...it'll lead to a revolution, a red revolution where everyone will have to drink Velluto Rosso.
They have raped & pillaged across the globe for centuries , look where its got them.
But before we forget, this thread is about NZ

Yep and with the same pc lefty crap we are 20 years behind.

[BoristheBiter]

Aint that the truth......

Just because you own your own home (no mortgage) doesnt necessarily guarantee you'll also be able to enjoy it when you retire....there are pensioners all around the country (& bussinesses) who struggle with the continued rate increases & more importantly the ongoing "Value" ascertained by is it Quotable Values? Which is no way entwined with the council. Its in their interest to see values rising.When the house next door sells on a high, bad luck to you who's still living in a house with the 1970's decor....

John Key shows his arrogance once again by saying that Court action is as likely to be sucessful as an Asteroid hitting the Planet.
Keep it up you smug fuck,your ego & flippant remarks are all that's needed to get more people on the street...:clap:

That is why on paper I will own nothing when I retire so the government will treat me the same as the bludgers and the ones that has pissed their money away.

[puddytat]

In Germany, if you own any assets @ the time of retirement & want a pension, then you have to sell them all & have to live off that money before the state will help...

[BoristheBiter]

In Germany, if you own any assets @ the time of retirement & want a pension, then you have to sell them all & have to live off that money before the state will help...

Lucky we aren't in Germany then.

[MisterD]

Keep it up you smug fuck,your ego & flippant remarks are all that's needed to get more people on the street...:clap:

I hope that was addressed to JK, and not to me...you *%$#!?!%

[Brian d marge]

In the tourist trade it is the English middle to upper class that for us are one of our biggest customers.The majority fear what the country has become.They are as disolusioned as we. They are fucking scared shittless by the thugs & the drugs & a country thats only a shooting away from riots on any day. If you think the right wing'll stop that, youre dreaming...it'll lead to a revolution, a red revolution where everyone will have to drink Velluto Rosso.
They have raped & pillaged across the globe for centuries , look where its got them.
But before we forget, this thread is about NZ
As ive said many times before its not left or right , green blue , but a style of economics and ideology , ( I mean NEW Labour !!) that leave Most of us in a squeezed position , for want of a better word.
The revolution IS happening NOW , those inner city , housing estates are very interesting places to live. The ones that can afford move away or into protected areas ( gated communities ) ..all because of a non egalitarian economic ideal. ( from the ticket clippers in Chicago )

Ive often view NZ as 15 years behind Britain , so some disquiet may happen ,,,I wouldn’t be surprised if it did or didn’t.

The Main point is; A style of economic theory is running amok and will cause great stress for the average person , It doesn’t need to be like that and shouldn’t be like that

How we get back to what we had ,

See my list; ( the one I posted before ) and shun consumerism. buy once , good quality, repairable, and start enjoying having less .....

We might even have to default on the loan. But at the very least we should stop borrowing ( YOU AND I , private debt )


Stephen

[Brian d marge]

Lucky we aren't in Germany then.

Dont you have to do that in NZ if you enter a retirement home , pay for it yourself until the assets run out ...then the state will kick in .....

Stephen

[BoristheBiter]

Dont you have to do that in NZ if you enter a retirement home , pay for it yourself until the assets run out ...then the state will kick in .....

Stephen

And if it is not in your name then no you don't.
Why do you think that trusts sprung up why they started means testing everyone?

[BoristheBiter]

As ive said many times before its not left or right , green blue , but a style of economics and ideology , ( I mean NEW Labour !!) that leave Most of us in a squeezed position , for want of a better word.
The revolution IS happening NOW , those inner city , housing estates are very interesting places to live. The ones that can afford move away or into protected areas ( gated communities ) ..all because of a non egalitarian economic ideal. ( from the ticket clippers in Chicago )

Ive often view NZ as 15 years behind Britain , so some disquiet may happen ,,,I wouldn’t be surprised if it did or didn’t.

The Main point is; A style of economic theory is running amok and will cause great stress for the average person , It doesn’t need to be like that and shouldn’t be like that

How we get back to what we had ,

See my list; ( the one I posted before ) and shun consumerism. buy once , good quality, repairable, and start enjoying having less .....

We might even have to default on the loan. But at the very least we should stop borrowing ( YOU AND I , private debt )


Stephen

We are (maybe not you) in a country that survives by exports so to get the trade deal we have to open our borders up to overseas.
Now I for one do not agree with this and will try and buy NZ made when I can, It has to be good quality.

I have seen in under 30 years basically everything be made off shore now.

Take my line of work.
Back when I was an apprentice there was a company of around 100 making cranes from scratch.
One person can now do the same job as it can be imported cheaper than made here so it is only assembly work now.

[Brian d marge]

We are (maybe not you) in a country that survives by exports so to get the trade deal we have to open our borders up to overseas.
Now I for one do not agree with this and will try and buy NZ made when I can, It has to be good quality.

I have seen in under 30 years basically everything be made off shore now.

Take my line of work.
Back when I was an apprentice there was a company of around 100 making cranes from scratch.
One person can now do the same job as it can be imported cheaper than made here so it is only assembly work now.

I started out fixing triumphs , then came the 24 000km service ...oil and tyres became the norm

I also buy NZ

Stephen

[scumdog]

In the tourist trade it is the English middle to uppper class that for us are one of our biggest customers.The majority fear what the country has become.They are as disolusioned as we. They are fucking scared shittless by the thugs & the drugs & a country thats only a shooting away from riots on any day. If you think the right wing'll stop that, youre dreaming....
But before we forget, this thread is about NZ

I thought you WERE talking about NZ??:(

[puddytat]

I thought you WERE talking about NZ??:(

Well I may as well be, like Brian said we're behind the times...
Was it the Nats or Labour that put the "Buy NZ Made " labelling attempt ( a Green initiative) to rest?:facepalm:
Probably has (had )something to do with trade deals:weird:

No that wasnt directed at you Mr D,I have way more respect for you 'cause you ride a bike Bro...

[BoristheBiter]

Well I may as well be, like Brian said we're behind the times...
Was it the Nats or Labour that put the "Buy NZ Made " labelling attempt ( a Green initiative) to rest?:facepalm:
Probably has (had )something to do with trade deals:weird:

No that wasnt directed at you Mr D,I have way more respect for you 'cause you ride a bike Bro...

Labour when they signed the free trade agreement with China.

There still are the labels, just everyone wants things as cheap as possible now.
And there is no point in fixing as you can buy a new one cheaper.

[oldrider]

We are (maybe not you) in a country that survives by exports so to get the trade deal we have to open our borders up to overseas.
Now I for one do not agree with this and will try and buy NZ made when I can, It has to be good quality.

I have seen in under 30 years basically everything be made off shore now.

Take my line of work.
Back when I was an apprentice there was a company of around 100 making cranes from scratch.
One person can now do the same job as it can be imported cheaper than made here so it is only assembly work now.

I wonder what the combined total in Union fees for those enterprise workers over that same period would add up to?

Do you think those workers got value for money? .... :shifty:

The thought simply went through my head as I read your post, nothing personal, nothing sinister, just a thought! :confused:

[BoristheBiter]

I wonder what the combined total in Union fees for those enterprise workers over that same period would add up to?

Do you think those workers got value for money? .... :shifty:

The thought simply went through my head as I read your post, nothing personal, nothing sinister, just a thought! :confused:

When i was still in it was about $3.50 a week, so
60 guys on the floor,210 a week, 10920 a year, 327'600 over 30 years.

Funny how none of the union reps never lost their jobs, but that's a whole new thread.

But 60 guys had jobs with health care, private super, and award wages which at the time was pretty good.

[Robert Taylor]

As ive said many times before its not left or right , green blue , but a style of economics and ideology , ( I mean NEW Labour !!) that leave Most of us in a squeezed position , for want of a better word.
The revolution IS happening NOW , those inner city , housing estates are very interesting places to live. The ones that can afford move away or into protected areas ( gated communities ) ..all because of a non egalitarian economic ideal. ( from the ticket clippers in Chicago )

Ive often view NZ as 15 years behind Britain , so some disquiet may happen ,,,I wouldn’t be surprised if it did or didn’t.

The Main point is; A style of economic theory is running amok and will cause great stress for the average person , It doesn’t need to be like that and shouldn’t be like that

How we get back to what we had ,

See my list; ( the one I posted before ) and shun consumerism. buy once , good quality, repairable, and start enjoying having less .....

We might even have to default on the loan. But at the very least we should stop borrowing ( YOU AND I , private debt )


Stephen

Actually much of what you have said makes perfect sense, its a matter of varying opinions on how we got there. Overinflating property prices ( someone else eluded to that ) I have to concur with, its criminal and speculative. There is nothing wrong with accumulating wealth, as long as its actually doing something useful and carrying people along with you.

[Brian d marge]

I vote we all stop agreeing ,,,,this is KB remember

Stephen

[FJRider]

I vote we all stop agreeing ,,,,this is KB remember

Stephen

I agree .... DAM ... !!! I've started doing it now too ... :yes:

[mashman]

I shall restore balance :)


Margaret Thatcher is living proof of an effective leader running a successful administration, we need more with her guts and determination.

As well as killing the manufacturing industry in the UK. Shutting down the mines. Destroying the car industry. Most likely others, but I'll have a chat with my mum about that at the weekend hopefully. She "was" a Thatcher fan and studied history and politics off the back of that... only to be unable to get a job teaching as education started to suffer through lack of "investment" as (tax cuts) Maggie stuck the boot in on the public sector. I'll admit she was a strong leader, but she had a booming economy at her fingertips as the fiat money system took hold after decimalisation... and as that was over twenty years ago, I doubt we'll ever see her likes again as the economy just isn't there to support what needs to be done. The issues we have now where just starting back then. As much as she did good she was the first of the anti-social PM's imho... and with her buddy Ronnie they put growth and business before the needs of the population and here we are today. The "system" they helped to put in place is destroying life as we knew it. Sure you can call that dramatic, but I don't see it as being anything other than true.

[puddytat]

Dont for get the Malvinas...<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/AqonCo0A68o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[SPman]

When she finally snuffs it, I hope she'll have remained true to her beliefs and have made arrangements to pay for her own state funeral......

[oldrider]

Couched in the simplest of terms, current asset sale plans mean:


Government are going to call for 49% freedom of choice (private) investment in these assets! .. The other 51% remains as compulsory (taxpayer) investment!


Personally, as a taxpayer I can't see too much wrong with that as an alternative to total compulsory taxpayer investment!

(Doesn't mean we all have to agree it will work as planned but taxpayers select these people to do this job for them knowing what they intend to do!)

Hmmm, at least the private investor will get a "choice" in where they spend "their own money"!

Currently the government simply steals the money off the taxpayer at gun point and does what ever they like with it! :2guns: (Now this part really pisses me off!)

[Brian d marge]

Couched in the simplest of terms, current asset sale plans mean:


Government are going to call for 49% freedom of choice (private) investment in these assets! .. The other 51% remains as compulsory (taxpayer) investment!


Personally, as a taxpayer I can't see too much wrong with that as an alternative to total compulsory taxpayer investment!

(Doesn't mean we all have to agree it will work as planned but taxpayers select these people to do this job for them knowing what they intend to do!)

Hmmm, at least the private investor will get a "choice" in where they spend "their own money"!

Currently the government simply steals the money off the taxpayer at gun point and does what ever they like with it! :2guns: (Now this part really pisses me off!)


And if it get listed on the Australian market , OR ANY off shore investor , your money will leave NZ , where at least the Govn put it in the sluch fun before sending it overseas
Stephen

[oneofsix]

And if it get listed on the Australian market , OR ANY off shore investor , your money will leave NZ ,

And then the complaints will start about our spiralling overseas debt and how we should stop buying bikes and TV etc :facepalm:

[Brian d marge]

And then the complaints will start about our spiralling overseas debt and how we should stop buying bikes and TV etc :facepalm:

well actually , you should stop buying ,

buy once , buy quality , buy Enfield ( or if you are an overseas investor ) Buy Nz

Stephen

[oneofsix]

well actually , you should stop buying ,

buy once , buy quality , buy Enfield ( or if you are an overseas investor ) Buy Nz

Stephen

and when they have bought NZ we will have no way to make money so the Govt will have to rely solely on taxes, robbing the poor. Whereas with the assets they would make more money keeping them and be able to reduce taxes long term (well not put them up as much).

[Brian d marge]

and when they have bought NZ we will have no way to make money so the Govt will have to rely solely on taxes, robbing the poor. Whereas with the assets they would make more money keeping them and be able to reduce taxes long term (well not put them up as much).

Robbing the poor ,,,Far to old fashioned its called empowering the middle classes now

Bags, I’m friar Tuck , when the balloon goes up !

Stephen

We need Errol Flynn , he could save us !
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/xXHVDRgAFMk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[oldrider]

And if it get listed on the Australian market , OR ANY off shore investor , your money will leave NZ , where at least the Govn put it in the sluch fun before sending it overseas
Stephen

When I first started riding motorcycles the average motorcyclist was regarded as a free spirited self reliant adventurer ... now fucking look at us FFS!

Same thing with any suggestion not quite PC and contained by hundreds of useless rules and laws, what do we do?

We consult with "Chicken Little" societies and cry like fucking babies for our toy's back ... even though we can no longer afford them!

All we want from these so called "assets" is the service that they provide at as cheap a price as possible!

Who gives a rat's arse who owns them and that they make a bit of profit, they have bought the right to take the risk! (just like a biker when he buys a bike and rides it!)

[Brian d marge]

When I first started riding motorcycles the average motorcyclist was regarded as a free spirited self reliant adventurer ... now fucking look at us FFS!

Same thing with any suggestion not quite PC and contained by hundreds of useless rules and laws, what do we do?

We consult with "Chicken Little" societies and cry like fucking babies for our toy's back ... even though we can no longer afford them!

All we want from these so called "assets" is the service that they provide at as cheap a price as possible!

Who gives a rat's arse who owns them and that they make a bit of profit, they have bought the right to take the risk! (just like a biker when he buys a bike and rides it!)

Trouble is you do need to " give a rats arse " because the chances of you getting a good service for as cheap as possible is , slim to none. The business model can quite happily be applied to a smartphone or a bike , but water and electricity ( well water at least ) is a basic human need,

I didnt move the goal post some dick in Chicago did , and if you want to remain " free" , then that freedom comes at a price , ( i mean this as in financially free , not pushing sh up a hill each week because the electricity / water /reg bill was to high

Stephen

ps we can afford them

[oldrider]

Well Stephen I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens and then we can fire I told you so's at each other in hindsight!

As to who is right .... I would only bet on us both being wrong because the current monetary system only allows politicians to fail. :wacko:

[Brian d marge]

Well Stephen I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens and then we can fire I told you so's at each other in hindsight!

As to who is right .... I would only bet on us both being wrong because the current monetary system only allows politicians to fail. :wacko:

I hope I’m wrong , that’s all I can say

( well I can say a heap but,,, ( Now HE would have made a good politician !) )

Stephen

[Robert Taylor]

I shall restore balance :)



As well as killing the manufacturing industry in the UK. Shutting down the mines. Destroying the car industry. Most likely others, but I'll have a chat with my mum about that at the weekend hopefully. She "was" a Thatcher fan and studied history and politics off the back of that... only to be unable to get a job teaching as education started to suffer through lack of "investment" as (tax cuts) Maggie stuck the boot in on the public sector. I'll admit she was a strong leader, but she had a booming economy at her fingertips as the fiat money system took hold after decimalisation... and as that was over twenty years ago, I doubt we'll ever see her likes again as the economy just isn't there to support what needs to be done. The issues we have now where just starting back then. As much as she did good she was the first of the anti-social PM's imho... and with her buddy Ronnie they put growth and business before the needs of the population and here we are today. The "system" they helped to put in place is destroying life as we knew it. Sure you can call that dramatic, but I don't see it as being anything other than true.

And the administraion immediately before hers was successful?

[Brian d marge]

And the administraion immediately before hers was successful?

Or After ????

STEPHEN

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5lkf1D0MoQ8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[mashman]

And the administraion immediately before hers was successful?

They didn't drop the UK into a recession, so possibly. Although I would attribute their success to not letting the banks have free reign with the economy over skilled management.



Or After ????

STEPHEN

I used to do a great impression of John le grey. Not so good at Maggie though... my voice wasn't deep enough as unlike Madge, my balls hadn't dropped by then :eek:.

[BoristheBiter]

They didn't drop the UK into a recession, so possibly. Although I would attribute their success to not letting the banks have free reign with the economy over skilled management.

I used to do a great impression of John le grey. Not so good at Maggie though... my voice wasn't deep enough as unlike Madge, my balls hadn't dropped by then :eek:.

The funny thing is out of all the people that I have heard talk about what it was like under Maggie, the Tory right wingers loved her and the Labour Unionist hated her go figure, after that it's just a time in political history.

What i can remember was the coal that my grandparents could afford was shitty, powdery rubbish from Europe as the British coal was too expensive.
And after that time they got good coal for a good price.

[mashman]

The funny thing is out of all the people that I have heard talk about what it was like under Maggie, the Tory right wingers loved her and the Labour Unionist hated her go figure, after that it's just a time in political history.

What i can remember was the coal that my grandparents could afford was shitty, powdery rubbish from Europe as the British coal was too expensive.
And after that time they got good coal for a good price.

Me Ma ended up with both perspectives... for all she respected everything she "made", she also detested her for everything she "destroyed" and she's still a screaming Tory. I'll convert her to when she gets here :rofl:. After the way the Unions were dismantled, it's hardly surprising that they didn't like her so much. I guess putting money before people will do that to some people. As ya say, tis history, no real people power to fight off private enterprise and the wages gaps grow etc...

I remember the constant battle of those fighting for their jobs and losing their jobs... then found girls and all was well with the world. I could never figure out how it was cheaper to import coal from outside of the country... still don't in some ways.

[Brett]

I have always said NZ is a "socialist country" (nurtured by the state school system) today's asset sales protests simply demonstrate the point!

The objective should be less "monopoly" government interference and increased creation of commercial opportunities for business growth!

Government assets are dependant on taxpayer support (Air NZ) and higher and higher consumer pricing! (electricity)

By floating public shares in the asset, only those who want to invest need invest, freeing up taxpayer money for other projects!

"Real" competition rather than in house SOE "pretend monopoly competition" high price setting "should" put the brakes on unsupported price rises!

I was disgusted with the protests today, not so much about the stated reason but more by the "proof" that New Zealanders are so collectively stupid! :confused:

Even more disturbing is the part the media played in trying to maximise the coverage of the stupidity! :facepalm:

I am completely with you on most of that. I wonder how many of those protesting the asset sales have much commercial nouse?

[BoristheBiter]

Me Ma ended up with both perspectives... for all she respected everything she "made", she also detested her for everything she "destroyed" and she's still a screaming Tory. I'll convert her to when she gets here :rofl:. After the way the Unions were dismantled, it's hardly surprising that they didn't like her so much. I guess putting money before people will do that to some people. As ya say, tis history, no real people power to fight off private enterprise and the wages gaps grow etc...

I remember the constant battle of those fighting for their jobs and losing their jobs... then found girls and all was well with the world. I could never figure out how it was cheaper to import coal from outside of the country... still don't in some ways.

One company I work for makes pipes. It is cheaper to import from China....how that works I will never know.

[mashman]

The thing that truly gets me about asset sales, is that people in NZ who want the asset sales to go through, thereby increasing govt investment potential, are the exact same people who are unwilling to pay more taxes for the govt to increase their investment potential. It seems that some will only part with their money as long as they get something in return. The funny thing being that they'd get the same govt making the same investments using money from the same pot :blink:

[mashman]

One company I work for makes pipes. It is cheaper to import from China....how that works I will never know.

Ain't technology and cheaper wages grand eh :).

[mashman]

One company I work for makes pipes. It is cheaper to import from China....how that works I will never know.

I assume this is one of the other pieces of the puzzle? (http://nz.finance.yahoo.com/news/aussie-company-wins-rail-contract-034627022.html;_ylt=AkY4s4K.Qa8obijBs_ERa9pSK5NG;_ ylu=X3oDMTN2YjBobjhpBG1pdANUb3BTdG9yeSBQaG90byBOZX dzRlAEcGtnAzQ5ZDMzYzEzLWQ3MzctMzZhZS1hOTZlLWFjNWQ5 Y2FkN2VjNARwb3MDMQRzZWMDdG9wX3N0b3J5BHZlcgM2OTg0Zm JlMC1kMDhiLTExZTEtYmFmMy1kN2M1ZTI2NzU5MWI-;_ylg=X3oDMTFpbDZ1ZjI2BGludGwDbnoEbGFuZwNlbi1uegRw c3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25z;_ylv=3)

[Brian d marge]

One company I work for makes pipes. It is cheaper to import from China....how that works I will never know.

very poor health care , working conditions and environmental safety etc etc....it will change as china becomes more afluent ...then another pesant will take his place

Easy fix , just lower your costs to that of, or below China


Stephen

[Brian d marge]

I have always said NZ is a "socialist country" (nurtured by the state school system) today's asset sales protests simply demonstrate the point!

The objective should be less "monopoly" government interference and increased creation of commercial opportunities for business growth!

Government assets are dependant on taxpayer support (Air NZ) and higher and higher consumer pricing! (electricity)

By floating public shares in the asset, only those who want to invest need invest, freeing up taxpayer money for other projects!

"Real" competition rather than in house SOE "pretend monopoly competition" high price setting "should" put the brakes on unsupported price rises!

I was disgusted with the protests today, not so much about the stated reason but more by the "proof" that New Zealanders are so collectively stupid! :confused:

Even more disturbing is the part the media played in trying to maximise the coverage of the stupidity! :facepalm:
Snip snip sip ( not yet !)

Sorry I couldnt find the original


IF the investors were New Zealanders and IF there was true competition then yes , but unfortuantly I doubt it will happen , ( give me an example where it has )
A few monied people , or a outside investor with money , will set themselves up ( aka Toll , brierly investments etc )

and we will take a reaming

But I do agree ( and I think this is used against us ) that most people arent informed enough, and the diversity of protestors does more harm than good

one voice one goal

Stephen

[SPman]

BoristheBiter[/B]]

One company I work for makes pipes. It is cheaper to import from China....how that works I will never know.



very poor health care , working conditions and environmental safety etc etc....it will change as china becomes more afluent ...then another pesant will take his place

Easy fix , just lower your costs to that of, or below China

Stephen China becomes affluent - costs go up - places like NZ and the USA - costs go down because everyone is totally fecked - we become the new peasant/cheap labour cultures....and the cycle goes on.
Meantime - those in "authority" continue to make shitloads, through continued corruption and exploitation!

More and more, despite wondering 40 yrs ago what he was on about and thinking wrong wrong wrong, I tend to subscribe to Mao's saying "Power comes from the barrel of a gun"!
It seems to be the only way todeal with these cocksuckers!
How about actually imprisonning, for substantial sentences, all these banker arseholes!
Perhaps that would be a start....
Followed by investment banker arseholes............

[Brian d marge]

China becomes affluent - costs go up - places like NZ and the USA - costs go down because everyone is totally fecked - we become the new peasant/cheap labour cultures....and the cycle goes on.
Meantime - those in "authority" continue to make shitloads, through continued corruption and exploitation!

More and more, despite wondering 40 yrs ago what he was on about and thinking wrong wrong wrong, I tend to subscribe to Mao's saying "Power comes from the barrel of a gun"!
It seems to be the only way todeal with these cocksuckers!
How about actually imprisonning, for substantial sentences, all these banker arseholes!
Perhaps that would be a start....
Followed by investment banker arseholes............
reminds me of one of my legendary posts ....

It might actually come to that ,......

Stephen

[scumdog]

China becomes affluent - costs go up - places like NZ and the USA - costs go down because everyone is totally fecked - we become the new peasant/cheap labour cultures...
...........

True, I've posted that (or to that effect) on KB years ago.

China has cheap labour we can't compete with - so ourstandard of living will slip

China will notice its increasing affluence and it's workers will want more pay - so its standard of living will rise.

Hypothetically we should end up equal some time in the future - but we won't.:(

[BoristheBiter]

very poor health care , working conditions and environmental safety etc etc....it will change as china becomes more afluent ...then another pesant will take his place

Easy fix , just lower your costs to that of, or below China


Stephen

To lower my costs I would either have to make a substandard product or lay off staff or pay them less.
Now what do you think would be said if I did any of the above?

[Robert Taylor]

They didn't drop the UK into a recession, so possibly. Although I would attribute their success to not letting the banks have free reign with the economy over skilled management.



I used to do a great impression of John le grey. Not so good at Maggie though... my voice wasn't deep enough as unlike Madge, my balls hadn't dropped by then :eek:.

Rubbish, the recession was an inevitable aftermath of having to reign in out of control spending. Remember the winter of discontent, uncollected rubbish, the unions holding the country to ransom,3 day weeks and Callaghan having to go cap in hand to the IMF to have enough money to keep the country running?

Maggies saddest failure was not getting the poll tax through

[oldrider]

China becomes affluent - costs go up - places like NZ and the USA - costs go down because everyone is totally fecked - we become the new peasant/cheap labour cultures....and the cycle goes on.
Meantime - those in "authority" continue to make shitloads, through continued corruption and exploitation!

More and more, despite wondering 40 yrs ago what he was on about and thinking wrong wrong wrong, I tend to subscribe to Mao's saying "Power comes from the barrel of a gun"!
It seems to be the only way to deal with these cocksuckers!
How about actually imprisoning, for substantial sentences, all these banker arseholes!
Perhaps that would be a start....
Followed by investment banker arseholes............

Like "home detention" with a "Velcro fastened ankle bracelet"! .... Like they do now! :brick: (Crime "does" ... pay, "definitely" in New Zealand!) :yes:

[Brian d marge]

To lower my costs I would either have to make a substandard product or lay off staff or pay them less.
Now what do you think would be said if I did any of the above?

Welcome to the New right , hope you enjoy your stay

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

It must be nice and cosy in that place , 'cause once they are in , they sure as hell dont want to leave


Snip;
''The issue has never been about ownership. The issue has always been about Maori rights and interests.''

The claim by the Maori Council has been described by Key as ''opportunistic'' and has created anger within wider Maoridom.
Last week Turia refused to give an assurance the Maori Party would not walk away from its support arrangement with National after it was called on to do so by Opposition parties and the Maori Council.


Stephen

[Brian d marge]

Rubbish, the recession was an inevitable aftermath of having to reign in out of control spending. Remember the winter of discontent, uncollected rubbish, the unions holding the country to ransom,3 day weeks and Callaghan having to go cap in hand to the IMF to have enough money to keep the country running?

Maggies saddest failure was not getting the poll tax through

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monetarism

There were other factors as well , such as a whole lot of people suddenly entering the work place , oil , credit ,

Supply and demand , if you take money out of the system , inflation drops ( I think I’ve got that right )

if it drops below what you buy it for ,or you can buy more ,,,,,,, you can start loaning it out as credit , ( the credit boom of the 1980s )

New zealand used the unemployed as a (one off ) mechanism(s) to control inflation , that was below the belt ,,,,,,,,


the inefficient factories were a result of WW2 , Japan and Germany both received money to retool and restructure , Britain had to borrow ,,,twice . ( and thats rich , the Americans borrowed from the french for their war of independence , for a couple of ships , then defaulted on the loan...but WE stopped national socialists and WE had to pay it back...fkers)

If anything its our green for shiny stuff that’s causing a hell of a lot of the problems


Stephen


Ps Theres ya problem : http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/wellbeing/7307925/Kiwis-among-laziest-in-world-study

[oneofsix]

the inefficient factories were a result of WW2 , Japan and Germany both received money to retool and restructure , Britain had to borrow ,,,twice . ( and thats rich , the Americans borrowed from the french for their war of independence , for a couple of ships , then defaulted on the loan...but WE stopped national socialists and WE had to pay it back...fkers)


Stephen



You missed an irony. The American uprising was in support of a despot that wanted to rule Europe and preferred fiddling with his own breast rather than Josephine's whereas the Brits fought to prevent a despot that wanted to rule Europe.

[oneofsix]

Ps Theres ya problem : http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/wellbeing/7307925/Kiwis-among-laziest-in-world-study

Yeah but no. The lazy in the headline is we don't get enough time to get physical. Other studies have said this is because we spend too long at work arriving home mentally exhausted. Or in short exploited.

[Brian d marge]

Yeah but no. The lazy in the headline is we don't get enough time to get physical. Other studies have said this is because we spend too long at work arriving home mentally exhausted. Or in short exploited.
Exploited is a word I would use to

The bbc did a work life / money balance thing and kiwis did some long hours

but all is not lost


Kiwis missing out on well-paid work
according to stuff , after a few months training you to could be 70 k

So why cant they find workers??? me wonders

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

You missed an irony. The American uprising was in support of a despot that wanted to rule Europe and preferred fiddling with his own breast rather than Josephine's whereas the Brits fought to prevent a despot that wanted to rule Europe.

Irony is a womans job, You sure it was boney and not Louis who lent the yanks money? either way it doesnt matter , they skipped the bill

but when it came to saving the free world , we should have used "ghostbusters " , damn sight cheaper

Stephen

And on that note, Jobs for the boys,,, I seem to remember this fella , and not in a good way either .....

Rod Carr joins RBNZ board

[Robert Taylor]

Yeah but no. The lazy in the headline is we don't get enough time to get physical. Other studies have said this is because we spend too long at work arriving home mentally exhausted. Or in short exploited.

Heck Im exploiting myself then.............. and my staff went home long ago

[mashman]

Rubbish, the recession was an inevitable aftermath of having to reign in out of control spending. Remember the winter of discontent, uncollected rubbish, the unions holding the country to ransom,3 day weeks and Callaghan having to go cap in hand to the IMF to have enough money to keep the country running?

Maggies saddest failure was not getting the poll tax through

I agree that recession was/is inevitable and I've pretty much gotten over the fact that it isn't the fault of the govt. Yes it was a wee troll in regards to Mags leading the country into recession... but I don't believe that she did the right things in regards to sacking people etc... after all every govt spouts on about jobs etc... being key (no pun) to a healthy economy, yet it's the first thing that takes the hit in a recession. The rationalising of making money over the livelihoods of people, who are supposedly needed for a thriving economy, has never made sense to me, much much more so these days. Tis a shame the same thinking still works these days. funny that you bag the unions given that they were fighting to keep people in work. They weren't asking for more money, they were asking not to shut down industry, you know, the industry that pumped money into the economy. Crisis engineered by man for the entertainment and enrichment of a small number of people. Almost depressing if it wasn't so funny.

[Robert Taylor]

I agree that recession was/is inevitable and I've pretty much gotten over the fact that it isn't the fault of the govt. Yes it was a wee troll in regards to Mags leading the country into recession... but I don't believe that she did the right things in regards to sacking people etc... after all every govt spouts on about jobs etc... being key (no pun) to a healthy economy, yet it's the first thing that takes the hit in a recession. The rationalising of making money over the livelihoods of people, who are supposedly needed for a thriving economy, has never made sense to me, much much more so these days. Tis a shame the same thinking still works these days. funny that you bag the unions given that they were fighting to keep people in work. They weren't asking for more money, they were asking not to shut down industry, you know, the industry that pumped money into the economy. Crisis engineered by man for the entertainment and enrichment of a small number of people. Almost depressing if it wasn't so funny.

Greed ( and after all that is what causes a LOT of our problems ) is of course not totally the preserve of the ''rich'', we see it at all levels of society. I just dont believe socialism is the holy grail to fixing it all, as has been proven time and again
But I think what many of us can agree on is that the money that is in circulation should not be used for speculative interest, it should be used for productive business that employs people. Like you I have a deep mistrust of the financial sector and the obscene bonuses that have been paid to CEOs already on fat salaries etc.
Its possible to have conservative political beliefs ( and I aint changing those ) but to also see the sense in creating an environment that helps ordinary everyday people to prosper. And not via handouts.

[mashman]

Greed ( and after all that is what causes a LOT of our problems ) is of course not totally the preserve of the ''rich'', we see it at all levels of society. I just dont believe socialism is the holy grail to fixing it all, as has been proven time and again
But I think what many of us can agree on is that the money that is in circulation should not be used for speculative interest, it should be used for productive business that employs people. Like you I have a deep mistrust of the financial sector and the obscene bonuses that have been paid to CEOs already on fat salaries etc.
Its possible to have conservative political beliefs ( and I aint changing those ) but to also see the sense in creating an environment that helps ordinary everyday people to prosper. And not via handouts.

No money no greed. Simple. I agree that there are greedy people at all levels, but they're only ever after one thing. I ain't talking about socialism, not sure what you would call it, but anything where money is involved will attract those who seek the shortcuts and to hell with anyone in the way. I'm talking about doing things because they need to be done. No more, no less... but such sense doesn't exist for one reason or another, could be greed, could be resistance to change, could be superiority, but it all sounds like entitlement to me. I am better than yow because I do this better and am more intelligenterer and should therefore have more than you. I wouldn't necessarily lay that wholly on the doorstep of greed.
I am certainly with you in regards to the financial institutions, but they're an unstoppable monster and great men have fought the banks for hundreds of years, if not millenia and here we are, stuck in the worst recession/depression with no real end in sight... other than more suffering for some. Wanna sort it, banks, money and our personal value has to change and change to the point where it doesn't exist. Get past that and I reckon we'll positively thrive as a civilisation. We have the tech, we have the people, we just need to get rid of the obvious budget constraints.
I have no doubt that you want what's "best", but somewhere along the line someone is going to need a handout, unemployment is inevitable, there just aren't enough jobs... and would you rather have those who have an interest in working for you than someone who has been 10 years of the dole and is only working for you because society has threatened your income stream? I care not about left, right, centrist etc... but where a policy just doesn't make sense and where people are inevitably going to be unemployed, I'd rather the professionals took those non jobs :)... otherwise it'll do more harm than good. Yes there are some scum, just be glad they aren't bludging off of an employer?

[BoristheBiter]

No money no greed. Simple. I agree that there are greedy people at all levels, but they're only ever after one thing. I ain't talking about socialism, not sure what you would call it, but anything where money is involved will attract those who seek the shortcuts and to hell with anyone in the way. I'm talking about doing things because they need to be done. No more, no less... but such sense doesn't exist for one reason or another, could be greed, could be resistance to change, could be superiority, but it all sounds like entitlement to me. I am better than yow because I do this better and am more intelligenterer and should therefore have more than you. I wouldn't necessarily lay that wholly on the doorstep of greed.
I am certainly with you in regards to the financial institutions, but they're an unstoppable monster and great men have fought the banks for hundreds of years, if not millenia and here we are, stuck in the worst recession/depression with no real end in sight... other than more suffering for some. Wanna sort it, banks, money and our personal value has to change and change to the point where it doesn't exist. Get past that and I reckon we'll positively thrive as a civilisation. We have the tech, we have the people, we just need to get rid of the obvious budget constraints.
I have no doubt that you want what's "best", but somewhere along the line someone is going to need a handout, unemployment is inevitable, there just aren't enough jobs... and would you rather have those who have an interest in working for you than someone who has been 10 years of the dole and is only working for you because society has threatened your income stream? I care not about left, right, centrist etc... but where a policy just doesn't make sense and where people are inevitably going to be unemployed, I'd rather the professionals took those non jobs :)... otherwise it'll do more harm than good. Yes there are some scum, just be glad they aren't bludging off of an employer?

:facepalm:
Oh dear god don't start that again.

[mashman]

:facepalm:
Oh dear god don't start that again.

:rofl: Well ya see........

[SPman]

Like "home detention" with a "Velcro fastened ankle bracelet"! .... Like they do now! :brick: (Crime "does" ... pay, "definitely" in New Zealand!) :yes:

I was thinking, more, iron ball fastened to ankle with steel strap, doing 10 yrs work in a quarry with a large hammer........well......we need extra basecourse for all those new roads the Gov. want's to build.........

[Brian d marge]

Well numbnuts has released details of the proposed sale... looks nice , pretty ribbons , nice box , sure to fool most people

Stephen

[gammaguy]

history will show that those who keep the family silver do better than those that sell it to the highest bidder.

In Singapore where I live the infrastructure,land and key assets are prohibited from being sold to foreigners,it is part of the charter of the republic.

NZ would do well to learn from this.

[oldrider]

history will show that those who keep the family silver do better than those that sell it to the highest bidder.

In Singapore where I live the infrastructure,land and key assets are prohibited from being sold to foreigners,it is part of the charter of the republic.

NZ would do well to learn from this.

Possibly true!

Hmmmm but then are you not just another rat who already has deserted the sinking ship, or do you pay tax to NZ? :o

If not, you may simply be part of the reason for having to take these draconian measures! :Pokey: (history will most likely show us the answer to that too!)

[pete376403]

If gammaguy lives and works in Singapore why should he pay tax in NZ?

How much tax does oldrider pay in Australia or some other country were he is non resident?

And if "rats deserting sinking ships" is applied to anyone living and working n another country, what does that make John Key for all his time working overseas?

(talking of rats, do some research on Andy Krieger, what he did to the NZ dollar and who his Merril Lynch broker was at the time)

[FJRider]

If gammaguy lives and works in Singapore why should he pay tax in NZ?



Depends who they are being paid by. If they were living/working in Singapore (or Australia) ... and paid by a New Zealand company ... they may well be subject to New Zealand tax requirements.

[Brian d marge]

Possibly true!

Hmmmm but then are you not just another rat who already has deserted the sinking ship, or do you pay tax to NZ? :o

If not, you may simply be part of the reason for having to take these draconian measures! :Pokey: (history will most likely show us the answer to that too!)

I still pay taxes towards New Zealand , I shop in NZ , I even vote in NZ .....( guess which color ...) below is a very good doc , on why things are they way they are ...you and I are front and centre of the blame ......

http://<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/gWtrbGWixRQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


This is a good explaination of why

Stephen

[FJRider]

I still pay taxes towards New Zealand , I shop in NZ , I even vote in NZ .....( guess which color ...)


Stephen

Green ... right ... :innocent:

[Brian d marge]

Green ... right ... :innocent:

Labour but with a pronounced left limp !

Stephen

[BoristheBiter]

Labour but with a pronounced left limp !

Stephen

Gee I would never have guessed.:blink:

[gammaguy]

Possibly true!

Hmmmm but then are you not just another rat who already has deserted the sinking ship, or do you pay tax to NZ? :o

If not, you may simply be part of the reason for having to take these draconian measures! :Pokey: (history will most likely show us the answer to that too!)

I own property in NZ and pay tax on the income from that

I also pay tax in Singapore(although the rate is a lot lower than NZ)

So I contribute to both countries

I left NZ to set up my business in Singapore because I got zero help and max aggravation from the NZ beauracracy and exactly the opposite from Singapore.

[Brian d marge]

Gee I would never have guessed.:blink:

I hid it well

Stephen

[FJRider]

Labour but with a pronounced left limp !

Stephen

It's funny how many vote Labour ... with never having the intention of actually labouring ... :lol:

With your limp ... I'd suggest you look at going on an Invalid's Benefit ... :killingme

[oldrider]

I still pay taxes towards New Zealand , I shop in NZ , I even vote in NZ .....( guess which color ...) below is a very good doc , on why things are they way they are ...you and I are front and centre of the blame ......

This is a good explaination of why

Stephen

Interesting clip, long but still compelling viewing just the same. The main points that stand out to me were:

China, an absolute communist state floundering in political destitution suddenly begins a life giving cycle founded by the adaptation of Capitalist principals and policies!

As the communist leader said, it doesn't matter whether the cat is black or white, just as long as it catches the mouse!

Much like the NZ socialist state stagnating because of it's left leaning electorate, causing elected parties to snatch at right leaning policies to try and get some traction and stay afloat and move forward!

The main thing to stand out though, is that the banking fraternity is always at fault and irrespective of political colours of the people in charge, the banking system performance will determine the outcome but shall shoulder no blame or criticism for the result!

The blame for that shall rest with the people and their political representatives! .... Don't you just gotta love those bankers! :argh:

[Brian d marge]

The blame for that shall rest with the people and their political representatives! .... Don't you just gotta love those bankers! :argh:

As I ve said, If you pump money out of the ground , or the money buys more ,and it all goes looking for investment ,and at the same time real wages are dropping due to changes in the work place ( women ,and the computer for example , as well as the deskilling of workers ) resulting in the advancement of credit

You cant blame the banks , they are just doing what banks and supermarkets do , make money , Greed is the real key . It doesn’t help when a few REALLY greedy ones club together to change the rules , in order to feed their greed

Now that is out of order

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

It's funny how many vote Labour ... with never having the intention of actually labouring ... :lol:

With your limp ... I'd suggest you look at going on an Invalid's Benefit ... :killingme

How do you know , I havent busted a gut to get here? worked the evenings washing dishes ? after me day job ?

your not one of those annoying people at parties who laughs at their own jokes when the rest of the room is cringing ..... ??? are you.


Stephen

[gammaguy]

How do you know , I havent busted a gut to get here? worked the evenings washing dishes ? after me day job ?

your not one of those annoying people at parties who laughs at their own jokes when the rest of the room is cringing ..... ??? are you.


Stephen

if you are a foreigner working in Japan,you are either a skilled person contributing meaningfully to the workforce

or a bar girl velly horny love you long time

im pretty sure you are not the latter,as bar girls dont tend to ride dirt bikes

[Brian d marge]

if you are a foreigner working in Japan,you are either a skilled person contributing meaningfully to the workforce

or a bar girl velly horny love you long time

im pretty sure you are not the latter,as bar girls dont tend to ride dirt bikes

I look good in blue

266765

Stephen

ps , like all thing it takes work , but on the way don’t forget what you were or how you got here .......

[Oscar]

Well numbnuts has released details of the proposed sale... looks nice , pretty ribbons , nice box , sure to fool most people

Stephen

But not you, eh?
You're far too smart...

[Oscar]

In today's Harald (sorry, Te Herora o Aoteroa):

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10821467


National's annual conference was not short of protests. But the protests were embarrassingly short of protesters.

Contrary to the impression given by some accounts, the 400 or so party faithful did not spend their weekend cowering inside Auckland's SkyCity Convention Centre behind a not-so-thin blue line of police.

The police showed up in significant number; the protesters did not. Yesterday morning's all-comers rally against everything National stands for drew a total of 79 people

If you guys are serious, you may have to get off of your arses...

[Brian d marge]

But not you, eh?
You're far too smart...

If I’m smart you must have struggled in remedial reading classes

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

If you guys are serious, you may have to get off of your arses...


Very true , its not untill its too late do the masses move

Not just in NZ , but as far back as france, amazing what crap people put up with before they do something

Stephen

[oldrider]

So many men so many opinions!

All the colours of the rainbow screamed ... pick me! ... pick me! ... pick me! ... so the people picked the "blue team"!

The blue team talked to a couple of their friendly coloured mates and said come with us!

Now having gained the majority, the blue team played their hand, exactly as they said they would!

The remaining rejected colours of the rainbow screamed ... fuck you! ... fuck you! ... fuck you!

Like the man in the cheese advertisement says ... good things take time! ... We shall see then! :corn: .MMP? NZ democracy in action? :lol:

[Brian d marge]

So many men so many opinions!

All the colours of the rainbow screamed ... pick me! ... pick me! ... pick me! ... so the people picked the "blue team"!

The blue team talked to a couple of their friendly coloured mates and said come with us!

Now having gained the majority, the blue team played their hand, exactly as they said they would!

The remaining rejected colours of the rainbow screamed ... fuck you! ... fuck you! ... fuck you!

Like the man in the cheese advertisement says ... good things take time! ... We shall see then! :corn: .MMP? NZ democracy in action? :lol:

Yes indeed , not helped by the media , ...but either way Im not worried .

If they do sell , I tried , if they dont sell all good . but from the tone of the media , its sold ,,,,,,,,,


http://www.trademe.co.nz/property/residential/sections-for-sale/auction-462395341.htm

and saying All of that , Ive had a day off today ( yes 1 day off ) and was browsing trade me , 650m^2 section with rough house in north canterbury 50k ... sod me If cut me drinking in half , I could own that in a few years ... might be good for a holiday home

Hmmmmmm would have to talk to the missus , and I would havve st cut me drinking ....and not spend so much on bikes or birds ......fk impossible dream . oh well;)



Stephen

[mashman]

das video

This is a good explaination of why

Stephen

The unfortunate thing that these programs seems to miss is that you can't have an economy without borrowing. It not like we started off with 100 trillion poundollarsetas and we have to give it to those who are producing the stuff we want. It's a shame that we have to see things in terms of production, growth and reward based on cost where there is more than enough to go around. That is obvious given China's rise and current lift in standard of living. Why did China have to produce cheap goods to gain a better standard of living? Why couldn't they have shared what we had in the first place? Cooperation at a price does not work. Ditch the price and let's have the cooperation in it's own right... by far a better idea. It'll be interesting to see if we do sink any further as it has been predicted for the US by the fella who predicted the crash in the first place. If the west stops buying, or can't afford to buy, where are the Chinese going to get their customers from?

[Brett]

I'm getting beyond caring. I plan on exiting stage left in the not too distant future. This country wants to sit around holding it's willy rather than getting shit done. can't mine this or that, such and such owns the water, the seabed, the air waves. But sure can spend circa $400,000,000 PER WEEK paying people who are achieving zero productivity. We have just been through (and are still experiencing) an economic recession of pretty decent magnitude, forecast to impact our economy for the next 15 to 20 years and people want to blame our economic woes on a particular government and in the meantime, said government can't get much traction on moving forward because a) they lack the balls to say "we are doing this, put your shoulder to the wheel" and at the same time, every bloody minority has an objection to every move the government tries to make. Screw this.

The sad thing is that NZ has the ability to become one of the wealthiest and most economically stable markets and countries because we have a AMAZING brand as a country and a lot of awesome resources and talent that if everyone could work together could be harnessed and truly amazing things achieved. However, the current culture, community and political landscape is doing it's best to prevent this at present. NZ is a small country, but it needs to lose it's small mindedness...then it will absolutely dominate.

[mashman]

I'm getting beyond caring. I plan on exiting stage left in the not too distant future. This country wants to sit around holding it's willy rather than getting shit done. can't mine this or that, such and such owns the water, the seabed, the air waves. But sure can spend circa $400,000,000 PER WEEK paying people who are achieving zero productivity. We have just been through (and are still experiencing) an economic recession of pretty decent magnitude, forecast to impact our economy for the next 15 to 20 years and people want to blame our economic woes on a particular government and in the meantime, said government can't get much traction on moving forward because a) they lack the balls to say "we are doing this, put your shoulder to the wheel" and at the same time, every bloody minority has an objection to every move the government tries to make. Screw this.

The sad thing is that NZ has the ability to become one of the wealthiest and most economically stable markets and countries because we have a AMAZING brand as a country and a lot of awesome resources and talent that if everyone could work together could be harnessed and truly amazing things achieved. However, the current culture, community and political landscape is doing it's best to prevent this at present. NZ is a small country, but it needs to lose it's small mindedness...then it will absolutely dominate.

15 - 20 years because of money :facepalm: oh how enlightened we are... but this is the world we live in. I left the UK 6 years ago because it was fucked. I see the same things happening here, most likely the same things are happening in all sorts of western societies that can't compete with the developing East. How many people are there in China and India and how many of them can do the things that we do in NZ? and much cheaper too. I guess my question would be: Where are you going to go that is so safe and stable?

I agree with that second part... albeit using a lightly different economic model than yours :).

[Brian d marge]

The unfortunate thing that these programs seems to miss is that you can't have an economy without borrowing. It not like we started off with 100 trillion poundollarsetas and we have to give it to those who are producing the stuff we want. It's a shame that we have to see things in terms of production, growth and reward based on cost where there is more than enough to go around. That is obvious given China's rise and current lift in standard of living. Why did China have to produce cheap goods to gain a better standard of living? Why couldn't they have shared what we had in the first place? Cooperation at a price does not work. Ditch the price and let's have the cooperation in it's own right... by far a better idea. It'll be interesting to see if we do sink any further as it has been predicted for the US by the fella who predicted the crash in the first place. If the west stops buying, or can't afford to buy, where are the Chinese going to get their customers from?

there was another which i didn’t post ( rotter, as now I will have to find it ) , the Chinese are the latest to fall for the infectious beauty of capitalism , and will eat their insides out and crash , just like Britain , American ,,,,cant think of anymore
They say either India or turkey will be the next super power

That be your problem, I cant change the world , but I can help those close to me ...and if it wasn’t for those FKing mosquitoes , I would be in me garden now ( seriously , went to pick a few tomatoes , applied bug lotion and the little fker ate me alive , in the space of less than 5 min ...chemical warfare seems a good plan right about now )

Anyway , on kind off a similar subject, I went to the supermarket to get some sugar for the potieen , ( attempt number 2 ) ,,numb nuts at market threw litter on the ground , I looked at him , to say maaaate what are you doing , then I saw the " not a clue " eyes .... and I am afraid there are a whole bunch of well meaning people , who simply don’t know ..I mean "really don’t know "
Not us here on KB , while we may disagree , at least we are "aware" ..........

oh well .....its only stress if you let it ..........now where is me bug spray ...............die lower life-form,,,,,,,die,,,,how dare you feast on the king of the food chain , you and your children shall suffer immensely

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

I'm getting beyond caring. I plan on exiting stage left in the not too distant future. This country wants to sit around holding it's willy rather than getting shit done. can't mine this or that, such and such owns the water, the seabed, the air waves. But sure can spend circa $400,000,000 PER WEEK paying people who are achieving zero productivity. We have just been through (and are still experiencing) an economic recession of pretty decent magnitude, forecast to impact our economy for the next 15 to 20 years and people want to blame our economic woes on a particular government and in the meantime, said government can't get much traction on moving forward because a) they lack the balls to say "we are doing this, put your shoulder to the wheel" and at the same time, every bloody minority has an objection to every move the government tries to make. Screw this.

The sad thing is that NZ has the ability to become one of the wealthiest and most economically stable markets and countries because we have a AMAZING brand as a country and a lot of awesome resources and talent that if everyone could work together could be harnessed and truly amazing things achieved. However, the current culture, community and political landscape is doing it's best to prevent this at present. NZ is a small country, but it needs to lose it's small mindedness...then it will absolutely dominate.

buggering off , pays well.....then set up a sustainable household , morgage free in NZ ..win win .....

Stephen

[Brett]

buggering off , pays well.....then set up a sustainable household , morgage free in NZ ..win win .....

Stephen

Yep. At the moment I don't realistically see an alternative. Even just in Aussie in say coastal Q'land we would save each year that amount we earn here in good ol' NZ. Not that Aussie is necessarily the move to make. Two to three years in Aussie and we would be able to save enough to afford a nice house even in Auckland without having to owe the bank any money. (currently we have a very nice house...but the bank owns about 70% of it.) But it's more than the money. I am a doer...I like to be productive and be around productive people who have a positive outlook on the future and are willing to put some skin in the game to secure their own futures. We shape our own futures through our decisions and attitudes ultimately.

[BoristheBiter]

It's funny how all say that they would do this for the country, do that for the country just end up talking about how much money than can make elsewhere.
Just makes me think you are all just greedy and there is never any pleasing greedy people as the more they have the more they want.

Me I'm proud to say this is the best country, yes it has faults but show me one that doesn't.
There is nothing that I can't do in NZ.

[Brian d marge]

Yep. At the moment I don't realistically see an alternative. Even just in Aussie in say coastal Q'land we would save each year that amount we earn here in good ol' NZ. Not that Aussie is necessarily the move to make. Two to three years in Aussie and we would be able to save enough to afford a nice house even in Auckland without having to owe the bank any money. (currently we have a very nice house...but the bank owns about 70% of it.) But it's more than the money. I am a doer...I like to be productive and be around productive people who have a positive outlook on the future and are willing to put some skin in the game to secure their own futures. We shape our own futures through our decisions and attitudes ultimately.

If you are a "doer " , your screwed in NZ , unless you have a hide like a rhino

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

It's funny how all say that they would do this for the country, do that for the country just end up talking about how much money than can make elsewhere.
Just makes me think you are all just greedy and there is never any pleasing greedy people as the more they have the more they want.

Me I'm proud to say this is the best country, yes it has faults but show me one that doesn't.
There is nothing that I can't do in NZ.

it is easier in (some) other countries .... and yes WE tend to be greedy , but the " nothing I cant do " is a good attitude to have ..asuming you can afford it

Stephen

[mashman]

there was another which i didn’t post ( rotter, as now I will have to find it ) , the Chinese are the latest to fall for the infectious beauty of capitalism , and will eat their insides out and crash , just like Britain , American ,,,,cant think of anymore
They say either India or turkey will be the next super power

That be your problem, I cant change the world , but I can help those close to me ...and if it wasn’t for those FKing mosquitoes , I would be in me garden now ( seriously , went to pick a few tomatoes , applied bug lotion and the little fker ate me alive , in the space of less than 5 min ...chemical warfare seems a good plan right about now )

Anyway , on kind off a similar subject, I went to the supermarket to get some sugar for the potieen , ( attempt number 2 ) ,,numb nuts at market threw litter on the ground , I looked at him , to say maaaate what are you doing , then I saw the " not a clue " eyes .... and I am afraid there are a whole bunch of well meaning people , who simply don’t know ..I mean "really don’t know "
Not us here on KB , while we may disagree , at least we are "aware" ..........

oh well .....its only stress if you let it ..........now where is me bug spray ...............die lower life-form,,,,,,,die,,,,how dare you feast on the king of the food chain , you and your children shall suffer immensely

Stephen

You bwute... weave them awone... or head into le jarden with a decent cigar. Works on the Kapiti coast, dunno about the zero mosi. I wonder if we'll see any more superpowers. If the US goes the way it's tipped to go, I'm hoping we'll start swinging around to the idea of global cooperation instead of capitalism and it's obvious ends... surely no economist would dare predict that they have the answer again? and who would try to usurp the US as No 1 (in the west at least, theys got weapons of mass destructions)? I'm not being negative or pessimistic but a country full of people with guns and a resources scramble ain't gonna come down to how much one has in the bank and that'll do a fuckload more damage than the recession/depression. In ways I look forwards to it happening (catalyst n all), but I wish we'd wake the fuck up and start acting like adults instead of scared children protecting our lollipops from marauding mosquitos... avoiding the madness is by far the preference... but I ain't ready to push hard enough to risk jail just yet.

Either way I rationalised, whilst bottling the first batch in a year, that I need another kit and several hundy more bottles... at least that way if an earthquake hits or the world goes tits, the kids will get some form of sugar and nutrient intake and water and failing that I'll have extra to barter for veggies or get the locals drunk before slaughtering them for their resources :blink:.

[Brian d marge]

You bwute... weave them awone... or head into le jarden with a decent cigar. Works on the Kapiti coast, dunno about the zero mosi. I wonder if we'll see any more superpowers. If the US goes the way it's tipped to go, I'm hoping we'll start swinging around to the idea of global cooperation instead of capitalism and it's obvious ends... surely no economist would dare predict that they have the answer again? and who would try to usurp the US as No 1 (in the west at least, theys got weapons of mass destructions)? I'm not being negative or pessimistic but a country full of people with guns and a resources scramble ain't gonna come down to how much one has in the bank and that'll do a fuckload more damage than the recession/depression. In ways I look forwards to it happening (catalyst n all), but I wish we'd wake the fuck up and start acting like adults instead of scared children protecting our lollipops from marauding mosquitos... avoiding the madness is by far the preference... but I ain't ready to push hard enough to risk jail just yet.

Either way I rationalised, whilst bottling the first batch in a year, that I need another kit and several hundy more bottles... at least that way if an earthquake hits or the world goes tits, the kids will get some form of sugar and nutrient intake and water and failing that I'll have extra to barter for veggies or get the locals drunk before slaughtering them for their resources :blink:.

heres one for ya then...evil credit ,,,,,,

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/in-debt-we-trust/

:jerry:

Stephen

ps , I cant breakeven , as fast as I produce it I drink it .....might have to step up production ,,,,,Costco , for sugar then ...

[Flip]

In the meantime the wealthy get richer, the poor get poorer and 99% the fools who voted national who are not in the wealthy minority are left with a bitter taste in their mouths.

Why should kiwis who have alredy paid for the assets being sold have to pay for them again?

[Oscar]

In the meantime the wealthy get richer, the poor get poorer and 99% the fools who voted national who are not in the wealthy minority are left with a bitter taste in their mouths.

Why should kiwis who have alredy paid for the assets being sold have to pay for them again?

What's this constant bullshit about "..assets we've already paid for..?
What is the Government's debt?
NZ$45B or thereabouts?

That's like claiming that you've paid for your house when you've still got a mortgage...

[Brett]

It's funny how all say that they would do this for the country, do that for the country just end up talking about how much money than can make elsewhere.
Just makes me think you are all just greedy and there is never any pleasing greedy people as the more they have the more they want.

Me I'm proud to say this is the best country, yes it has faults but show me one that doesn't.
There is nothing that I can't do in NZ.

Like I said...it ultimately isn't about the money. However having the resources to not be paying the bank a fortune each week in interest payments would be nice. Greed is always wanting more, never being satiated...which I think you would find wouldn't apply to the majority. Most people, including me, just want to be well set up to provide for our families and enjoy a bit of a lifestyle. I don't want to be the next Graeme Hart. Also, its a reality of being a small nation, you weather the peaks and troughs much worse than other larger economies often do.

[Brett]

In the meantime the wealthy get richer, the poor get poorer and 99% the fools who voted national who are not in the wealthy minority are left with a bitter taste in their mouths.

Why should kiwis who have alredy paid for the assets being sold have to pay for them again?

More of that bullshit political rhetoric. Who exactly are these wealthy that keep getting wealthier (off the back of Key)? I know a few wealthy blokes and not one of them made their coin through anything but sheer hard and clever work. It seems that the the opposition have developed a typical political battle cry (John Key's just looking after his mates) which is what the opposition do and this has simply been picked up by those amongst the public who didn't vote/don't support John Key. We would be in no better position under a labour lead government...especially not if Goff had got in, at least Shearer seems to have a bit more nouse. John Key certainly ain't perfect, but who would be doing a better job right now?

[Flip]

What's this constant bullshit about "..assets we've already paid for..?
What is the Government's debt?
NZ$45B or thereabouts?

That's like claiming that you've paid for your house when you've still got a mortgage...

No I liken it to owning a good cashed up business that makes a good ROI and selling it cheap to your mates! It's a crock of political shit.

Secondly NZ has a relatively low debt level, it's not goverment debt, that's the problem its private debt. So why is the goverment selling the Kiwi peoples assets?

Some voting morons (sheep) brought into the idea that selling the SOE's will pay off their private household debt, well durr! All this is is smoke and mirrors to transfer as many high capital state owned assets into the hands of the fucking filthy rich. Who is not you and me!

In the fullness of time all that is going to happen is the BRT will get its hands on our assets and run them into the ground and your tax will go up, ie ACC on Motorcycles, road tax for small diesel vehicles any thing to bag the average man. Under a right wing goverment the ritch get ritcher and the poor get poorer, thats what they do.

[Flip]

More of that bullshit political rhetoric. Who exactly are these wealthy that keep getting wealthier (off the back of Key)? I know a few wealthy blokes and not one of them made their coin through anything but sheer hard and clever work. It seems that the the opposition have developed a typical political battle cry (John Key's just looking after his mates) which is what the opposition do and this has simply been picked up by those amongst the public who didn't vote/don't support John Key. We would be in no better position under a labour lead government...especially not if Goff had got in, at least Shearer seems to have a bit more nouse. John Key certainly ain't perfect, but who would be doing a better job right now?

The debt the reserve bank reports on is the total debt that includes all overseas borrowing by private banks, credit card and finance companies and the funds to run the goverment.

When the SOE's are sold off the goverments books will look really good but the income from the sale will not be used to repay any private lending.

But the lost income from the SOE's wont go back to lighten the income tax load. Also in the short term the govts books will look good so the Nat govt will cut the tax rate, guess who will get the tax cut? It's a right wing goverment.

[Quasievil]

guess who will get the tax cut? It's a right wing goverment.

The ones who pay it ?

[oneofsix]

The debt the reserve bank reports on is the total debt that includes all overseas borrowing by private banks, credit card and finance companies and the funds to run the goverment.

...

so the Nat govt will cut the tax rate, guess who will get the tax cut? .

The overseas owned companies that are driving the overseas debt so we can attract more overseas owned companies.

[Flip]

The ones who pay it ?

.......are not the ones who need it!

All I see here is a load of political smoke and mirrors, the goverment is using a strong public desire to pay off debt to steal the capital value from the SOE's and transfer it to the filthy rich.

They are disposing of our assets at a fire sale price, selling it to their mates in the BRT. Paying off the goverment debt and not the private debt, which will fix NOTHING.

From the outside it is so obvious to me what the National Party is doing here, well time will tell, in this case I am certan I am right.

[oldrider]

The debt the reserve bank reports on is the total debt that includes all overseas borrowing by private banks, credit card and finance companies and the funds to run the goverment.

When the SOE's are sold off the goverments books will look really good but the income from the sale will not be used to repay any private lending.

But the lost income from the SOE's wont go back to lighten the income tax load. Also in the short term the govts books will look good so the Nat govt will cut the tax rate, guess who will get the tax cut? It's a right wing goverment.

No it's not!

This is a left wing government that looks over the fence at right wing policies to try and establish a point of difference or maybe even get some political traction!

To try to be otherwise in NZ would simply lead to political oblivion .... don't believe that? ask the ACT party how things are going these days!

This is a left wing country with a long established left wing electorate! ... This country reaps what it sows! :mellow:

[oneofsix]

No it's not!

This is a left wing government that looks over the fence at right wing policies to try and establish a point of difference or maybe even get some political traction!

To try to be otherwise in NZ would simply lead to political oblivion .... don't believe that? ask the ACT party how things are going these days!

This is a left wing country with a long established left wing electorate! ... This country reaps what it sows! :mellow:

Left wing country? and you call yourself "oldrider"? Have you forgot Sir Rob, Sir Keith Jacka et al. Used to be at least 3 terms Nat, one term Lab, then at least another 3 term Nat.
You be seeing reds under your bed, time to raise your head.

:corn:

[BoristheBiter]

.......are not the ones who need it!

All I see here is a load of political smoke and mirrors, the goverment is using a strong public desire to pay off debt to steal the capital value from the SOE's and transfer it to the filthy rich.

They are disposing of our assets at a fire sale price, selling it to their mates in the BRT. Paying off the goverment debt and not the private debt, which will fix NOTHING.

From the outside it is so obvious to me what the National Party is doing here, well time will tell, in this case I am certan I am right.


Ah Labour speak for "we have no clue so we shall make some shit up the scare the common folk".

I must be one of the "rich pricks" that people like you keep harping on about, and if that is so, then fuck me the country is broke.

I for one will be buying some shares in the SOE, a good investment for what I can see so far.

[superman]

I'm scraping together all the money I can to buy into these shares. Need to build a good portfolio, and no better age to start then ASAP. Especially with such stable investments.

I imagine these partial sales will bring lots of New Zealanders who have never bothered with shares to finally start investing. NZ has terrible stock investment rates compared to most western countries...

[Swoop]

I was thinking, more, iron ball fastened to ankle with steel strap, doing 10 yrs work in a quarry with a large hammer........well......we need extra basecourse for all those new roads the Gov. want's to build.........
Hmm. I was thinking of giving them shovels and pickaxes and telling them to dig a new rail network under Auckland.

I left NZ to set up my business in Singapore because I got zero help and max aggravation from the NZ beauracracy and exactly the opposite from Singapore.
There are a few on here that think we need the beauracracy, not substantially decrease it!:thud:

[BoristheBiter]

I'm scraping together all the money I can to buy into these shares. Need to build a good portfolio, and no better age to start then ASAP. Especially with such stable investments.

I imagine these partial sales will bring lots of New Zealanders who have never bothered with shares to finally start investing. NZ has terrible stock investment rates compared to most western countries...

:2thumbsup
Top job as it is about time people stopped thinking that housing is a be all and end all of investing for one's future.

[Oscar]

No I liken it to owning a good cashed up business that makes a good ROI and selling it cheap to your mates! It's a crock of political shit.

Secondly NZ has a relatively low debt level, it's not goverment debt, that's the problem its private debt. So why is the goverment selling the Kiwi peoples assets?

Some voting morons (sheep) brought into the idea that selling the SOE's will pay off their private household debt, well durr! All this is is smoke and mirrors to transfer as many high capital state owned assets into the hands of the fucking filthy rich. Who is not you and me!

In the fullness of time all that is going to happen is the BRT will get its hands on our assets and run them into the ground and your tax will go up, ie ACC on Motorcycles, road tax for small diesel vehicles any thing to bag the average man. Under a right wing goverment the ritch get ritcher and the poor get poorer, thats what they do.

Cashed up business?
What nonsense - the Govt has an operating deficit of $14b!!

As for the rest of your post, you seem to have an active imagination. I've never seen anyone claiming that buying these shares will pay off private debt. I'd also be interested in how the BRT "..gets it's hands on..", and runs these SOE's into the ground when the maximum shareholding is 49%. I'll give you left wingers credit - you tell a good yarn...

[oneofsix]

I'm scraping together all the money I can to buy into these shares. Need to build a good portfolio, and no better age to start then ASAP. Especially with such stable investments.

I imagine these partial sales will bring lots of New Zealanders who have never bothered with shares to finally start investing. NZ has terrible stock investment rates compared to most western countries...

Good luck with that. Telecom looked a solid investment when it first floated too.
NZ stocks have a terrible record of the CEO etc getting out with the money while the ma and pa investor loses their house, car and shirt.

[superman]

Good luck with that. Telecom looked a solid investment when it first floated too.
NZ stocks have a terrible record of the CEO etc getting out with the money while the ma and pa investor loses their house, car and shirt.

Well you don't put all your eggs in one basket now do you...

Bad diversity of investment will likely yield bad results.

[Quasievil]

.......are not the ones who need it!

All I see here is a load of political smoke and mirrors, the goverment is using a strong public desire to pay off debt to steal the capital value from the SOE's and transfer it to the filthy rich.

They are disposing of our assets at a fire sale price, selling it to their mates in the BRT. Paying off the goverment debt and not the private debt, which will fix NOTHING.

From the outside it is so obvious to me what the National Party is doing here, well time will tell, in this case I am certan I am right.


Wow, you got it Bad !!

So if you dont pay Tax you should get some MORE money from the Government, thats our problem, gravy train free loading !!

Love the Filthy Rich comment, sheesh you got to be joking !

[oneofsix]

Wow, you got it Bad !!

So if you dont pay Tax you should get some MORE money from the Government, thats our problem, gravy train free loading !!

Love the Filthy Rich comment, sheesh you got to be joking !

The only ones that don't pay taxes are the ones rich enough to avoid them. Even the dole bludgers pay taxes even if they use our taxes to do it and they can't afford to buy overseas to avoid the GST.

[Oscar]

Wow, you got it Bad !!

So if you dont pay Tax you should get some MORE money from the Government, thats our problem, gravy train free loading !!

Love the Filthy Rich comment, sheesh you got to be joking !

I love use of the BRT bogeyman..
In actual fact, the incentive offered to private investors, along with an almost certain cap on the amount of shares per investor is causing corporate investors to back away from Mighty River. Kiwi Saver Fund managers have also been critical that they haven't been offered the incentive.

The idiots in today's Harald have also indulged in scare tactics by calculating the cost of the bonus scheme to $112 per taxpayer. The fuckwits assumed that all shares would be bought by private investors...sheesh, are there any actual proper journos left in this country?:facepalm:

[oneofsix]

I love use of the BRT bogeyman..
In actual fact, the incentive offered to private investors, along with an almost certain cap on the amount of shares per investor is causing corporate investors to back away from Mighty River. Kiwi Saver Fund managers have also been critical that they haven't been offered the incentive.
BRT wont buy direct, they will wait on the small investors to sell up when the initial price drops, if they buy at all. But BRT to make a good example of corporate greed boogey men, even got the good ole tax payer to bail them out when their investment decisions turn to shit. :2thumbsup


The idiots in today's Harald have also indulged in scare tactics by calculating the cost of the bonus scheme to $112 per taxpayer. The fuckwits assumed that all shares would be bought by private investors...sheesh, are there any actual proper journos left in this country?:facepalm:
No. Real journos might scare us and we might get off our collective arse and turn revolting.

[Oscar]

BRT wont buy direct, they will wait on the small investors to sell up when the initial price drops, if they buy at all. But BRT to make a good example of corporate greed boogey men, even got the good ole tax payer to bail them out when their investment decisions turn to shit. :2thumbsup




Notwithstanding the fact that the BRT itself doesn't/can't actually buy any shares, could you explain how, even if one corporate gets their hands on the whole offering in three years, how does it control a company with 49% of the equity when the govt owns 51%?

You guys aren't liable to let the facts get in the way of a good scary story, are you?

[oneofsix]

Notwithstanding the fact that the BRT itself doesn't/can't actually buy any shares, could you explain how, even if one corporate gets their hands on the whole offering in three years, how does it control a company with 49% of the equity when the govt owns 51%?

You guys aren't liable to let the facts get in the way of a good scary story, are you?

Shit no, facts are boring and you are neglecting the 'big business controls the government' conspiracy, silly boy. Also do you really think the govt will hold at 49% and why restrict the timeline to 3 years?

[Oscar]

Shit no, facts are boring and you are neglecting the 'big business controls the government' conspiracy, silly boy. Also do you really think the govt will hold at 49% and why restrict the timeline to 3 years?

According to the BRT Bogeyman theory, all the Mum & Dad investors will bail out after three years when they collect their incentives.

If the Govt. wanted to maximumise its return it would sell 100% of Mighty River Power in one go. Selling 49% is putting off the overseas corporate raiders and reducing the price shitloads...

[puddytat]

Notwithstanding the fact that the BRT itself doesn't/can't actually buy any shares, could you explain how, even if one corporate gets their hands on the whole offering in three years, how does it control a company with 49% of the equity when the govt owns 51%?

You guys aren't liable to let the facts get in the way of a good scary story, are you?

If its a foreign owned company for example they can use the WTO laws against us if they disagree with the majority claiming that its hurting their bottom line....whats the difference between them & a tobacco company?

[Oscar]

If its a foreign owned company for example they can use the WTO laws against us if they disagree with the majority claiming that its hurting their bottom line....whats the difference between them & a tobacco company?

Jeebus, you're buying right into the conspiracy thang, ain't you?
Would you care to show us what part of the WTO allows them to do that, or is one stupid comment a day your limit?

[Brett]

Ah Labour speak for "we have no clue so we shall make some shit up the scare the common folk".

I must be one of the "rich pricks" that people like you keep harping on about, and if that is so, then fuck me the country is broke.

I for one will be buying some shares in the SOE, a good investment for what I can see so far.

I certainly agree with you. I too will be buying all the shares I can afford, especially in the power co's.

[Brett]

I'm scraping together all the money I can to buy into these shares. Need to build a good portfolio, and no better age to start then ASAP. Especially with such stable investments.

I imagine these partial sales will bring lots of New Zealanders who have never bothered with shares to finally start investing. NZ has terrible stock investment rates compared to most western countries...

And also a good incentive for many to have less of a focus on property investment!

[Brett]

Good luck with that. Telecom looked a solid investment when it first floated too.
NZ stocks have a terrible record of the CEO etc getting out with the money while the ma and pa investor loses their house, car and shirt.

Big difference between a Telco and a power company though. Communications was always going to face increased competition (especially given that the unbundling of the cables was inevitable...) however our demand for electricity is only ever increasing. As we are making more energy efficient devices, we are simultaneously using MORE devices. Without any new technologies on the horizon capable of commercial electricity generation that is more cost effective than what we currently have (or at least that I am aware of...) those existing power companies are going to have a reasonably good demand going forward.