Old multi-cylinder bikes of the 50s to later on. Japanese, British, Euro, etc

[leathel]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13481782@N06/sets/72157619480714676/show/

That link has a heap of pics of a V12 CBX and a video of it running

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd316/leathel-one/cbxv12.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/leathel-one/media/cbxv12.jpg.html)

[husaberg]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13481782@N06/sets/72157619480714676/show/

That link has a heap of pics of a V12 CBX and a video of it running


Same Designer guy (you somthing asian san)that did the RC166 did the CBX... Never actually seen one.........or the Benelli 6 or Kawa 6 for that mater.

[T.W.R]

Is it a plymouth?:scratch:

It's 8cyl 240cc 2smoker


Looks like a collection of chainsaws.......

Wrong & it wasn't built on the coast

[leathel]

Same Designer guy (you somthing asian san)that did the RC166 did the CBX... Never actually seen one.........or the Benelli 6 or Kawa 6 for that mater.

ANDREAS GEORGEADES built that cbx

http://www.duccutters.com/AndreasGeorgeades-Andreas/AndreasGeorgeades.pdf

[husaberg]

ANDREAS GEORGEADES built that cbx

http://www.duccutters.com/AndreasGeorgeades-Andreas/AndreasGeorgeades.pdf

er.I was meaning the original design for HONDA cbx100

[Yow Ling]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13481782@N06/sets/72157619480714676/show/

That link has a heap of pics of a V12 CBX and a video of it running

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd316/leathel-one/cbxv12.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/leathel-one/media/cbxv12.jpg.html)

looks nice and shiny , does it overheat? just cant see how the cooling works with all that stuff in the way and the front cylinders have the fins going the wrong way

[Grumph]

[QUOTE=Yow Ling;looks nice and shiny , does it overheat? just cant see how the cooling works with all that stuff in the way and the front cylinders have the fins going the wrong way[/QUOTE]

I see it's covered in oil coolers Mike - CBX's don't have a lot of finning anyway and rely largely on oil cooling...

TWR - no idea what that thing is, all I can say is that plating the frame around it is akin to polishing a turd....

[dangerous]

cooling aint no problem here, 2.6 V12 292520

but of all big blocks this is farking awesome... 292521

[T.W.R]

TWR - no idea what that thing is, all I can say is that plating the frame around it is akin to polishing a turd....

:clap: wasn't built in Hororata either :finger:





but of all big blocks this is farking awesome...

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18446&d=1130014782

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18447&d=1130014782

[Grumph]

:clap: wasn't built in Hororata either :

Well I assume that at that date and in the UK you didn't build it either....i looked at it and immediately made the old connection...If it don't go, chrome it....So WTF was it - and which museum is it in now ?

[leathel]

a pic taken from this years thunderbeach ride... this was the bike he rides.... the better ones doesn't go out much :blink: this one seamed mint to me :)

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd316/leathel-one/P1030158.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/leathel-one/media/P1030158.jpg.html)

[dangerous]

....So WTF was it - and which museum is it in now ?yeah tea uu R, spill... or else :corn:

[T.W.R]

i looked at it and immediately made the old connection...If it don't go, chrome it....So WTF was it - and which museum is it in now ?


yeah tea uu R, spill... or else :corn:

It's a Macey 8 (insert pun here :facepalm:) handbuilt by Bill Macey in Essex apparently one of two built. Two banks of four 30cc cylinders with disc valve induction. He also built the frame. It was a runner and god knows where it/they are now ?? no info on the net.
The article on the show is from Motorcycle Sport Volume21 issue 2

Was the same show that Cotton displayed their EM34 :yes:




Well I assume that at that date and in the UK you didn't build it either....

At that date in time I was watching the old man and others play with the likes of GP Triumphs, Bezzers & other things; And racing around Canterbury on the weekends chasing peeps like Mark Thorpe, Mark Lyndon, & James Lavender on a YZ80 :yes:

[Grumph]

It's a Macey 8 (insert pun here :facepalm:) handbuilt by Bill Macey in Essex apparently one of two built. Two banks of four 30cc cylinders with disc valve induction. He also built the frame. It was a runner and god knows where it/they are now ?? no info on the net.
The article on the show is from Motorcycle Sport Volume21 issue 2

Was the same show that Cotton displayed their EM34 :yes:





At that date in time I was watching the old man and others play with the likes of GP Triumphs, Bezzers & other things; And racing around Canterbury on the weekends chasing peeps like Mark Thorpe, Mark Lyndon, & James Lavender on a YZ80 :yes:

At that date I was in temporary retirement from racing and raising a family....and being annoyed by kids riding noisy bikes....

the Cotton worked well for Britain didn't it....usual good start but piss poor continued development and lack of money.

[T.W.R]

At that date I was in temporary retirement from racing and raising a family....and being annoyed by kids riding noisy bikes....
the Cotton worked well for Britain didn't it....usual good start but piss poor continued development and lack of money.

Wasn't me annoying you :laugh: though I did get ticked off by Ray Sherman a couple of times at meets :pinch:

The pics of the Cotton made it look out of date already

[husaberg]

At that date I was in temporary retirement from racing and raising a family....and being annoyed by kids riding noisy bikes....

the Cotton worked well for Britain didn't it....usual good start but piss poor continued development and lack of money.

The poms had the money, look at how much bikes they sold in the 50's 60's..
They just wouldn't invest in their factories with modern tooling and so forth, They had the designers.. they had the materials...
Their labour wasn't dearer than the Japanese.
It was just bloody minded tightness and being short sighted. Well thats my opinion.

[dangerous]

At that date I was in temporary retirement from racing and raising a family...Id like to think its temporary aswell :mellow:




It was just bloody minded tightness and being short sighted. Well thats my opinion.To a degree yeah, like my Triumph (car) bible shows prototypes built before the yanks were doing fast backs, pop up head lights etc... but the poms freaked them selves out and figgered that was way to radical we cant have that.

[F5 Dave]

The poms had the money, look at how much bikes they sold in the 50's 60's..
They just wouldn't invest in their factories with modern tooling and so forth, They had the designers.. they had the materials...
Their labour wasn't dearer than the Japanese.
It was just bloody minded tightness and being short sighted. Well thats my opinion.
War screwed them and they needed to pay back debt to US. Exporting was best way to do that but they were cash strapped. The mentality carried on to stupid levels though.

[husaberg]

Id like to think its temporary aswell :mellow:


To a degree yeah, like my Triumph (car) bible shows prototypes built before the yanks were doing fast backs, pop up head lights etc... but the poms freaked them selves out and figgered that was way to radical we cant have that.
hele and many others had great ideas stifled like the MC1 BSA never raced because the board said Hele must guarantee it would win first time out

War screwed them and they needed to pay back debt to US. Exporting was best way to do that but they were cash strapped. The mentality carried on to stupid levels though.
Granted but there forward planning and piss poor leadership by upper-class toffs.
Arthur Wicks (who did all the real detail designer stuff at Triumph) wasn't allowed to call Edward Turner by his first name....
I read stories of crankcases and covers being machined and polished only to be chucked into a bin instead of carefully stored so not to damage the mating surfaces.
Hele wanted to do the Trident and the Quantrant years before the CB750.
The Fury and Bandit could have been real sellers if only they had got the details right.

Joe Craig wanted to buy the Nougier 4 500 that showed great promise and the price was right but management wouldn't accept a froggy engine.
Norton kept interfering and changing the brief with the Cosworth twin according to Williams. Including making Cosworth make the engine look the same on both sides.....

[F5 Dave]

Oh sure, align with most English glorious defeats, along the lines of 'March over that way, we've been shelling the Hun for days'. And Triumph owners like to spend a Saturday afternoon dong the valves or whatever the quote was.

[WilDun]

The poms had the money, look at how much bikes they sold in the 50's 60's..
They just wouldn't invest in their factories with modern tooling and so forth, They had the designers.. they had the materials...
Their labour wasn't dearer than the Japanese.
It was just bloody minded tightness and being short sighted. Well thats my opinion.

Wrong Husaberg,
The Poms did not have the money in the fifties, Britain was more or less bankruped after the war, in fact, they had to pay America back for the "lend lease" equipment and because they didn't have the cash, they had to hand over their leading edge Jet Engine and computer technology to the US to help the payback.
Meantime, the money was promptly invested in Japan and Germany, in the form of brand new factories with state of the art machinery and state of the art education in production management and marketing techniques - that's the reason the Poms didnt invest any money into bikes. - who won the war? - the Japs won the bike war!

Will.

[husaberg]

Wrong Husaberg,
The Poms did not have the money in the fifties, Britain was more or less bankruped after the war, in fact, they had to pay America back for the "lend lease" equipment and because they didn't have the cash, they had to hand over their leading edge Jet Engine and computer technology to the US to help the payback.
Meantime, the money was promptly invested in Japan and Germany, in the form of brand new factories with state of the art machinery and state of the art education in production management and marketing techniques - that's the reason the Poms didnt invest any money into bikes. - who won the war? - the Japs won the bike war!

Will.

To a point i agree, but simply stated BSA who would have done pretty well out of the war, remember what BSA stands for .
Also BSA was not the British Government.
Japan and Germany also had their Debt wiped (i think) although Amal got a nice surprise with all the royalties that Mikuni had banked for them for the carbs made under license during the war was presented to them at the conclusion of the war.
I am sorry but i think the poms f-ed them selves by not thinking ahead.........

[F5 Dave]

See if they'd been smart they would have pushed into East Germany first and spirited away Kaaden and had a head start on some real engine technology instead of persevering with hopelessly flawed 1/2 time engines. The Bantam didn't really cut it.

[husaberg]

See if they'd been smart they would have pushed into East Germany first and spirited away Kaaden and had a head start on some real engine technology instead of persevering with hopelessly flawed 1/2 time engines. The Bantam didn't really cut it.

I think DR Joe erlich or whatever it was got one of the engines pretty early in the piece.
Kaaden reckoned Honda had a hand in the defection, as Degner not finishing allowed Honda to win the championship(thought you would like that)

[WilDun]

See if they'd been smart they would have pushed into East Germany first and spirited away Kaaden and had a head start on some real engine technology instead of persevering with hopelessly flawed 1/2 time engines. The Bantam didn't really cut it.

How can you say that? - the Bantam was a fantastic machine! I had the fastest one around and it could travel at around 80 mph :shit: (consertive estimate of course ), acceleration was compromised by the 3 speed box, yes three speed gearbox!
A neighbour of mine bought one brand new and he said it took him only 20 mins to get to town on it! (town was a little over four miles away).

Of course, I do understand that things may have moved on slightly from those days.

I'm sure Walter Kaaden also knew the defection was going to happen and I bet he didn't go empty handed from Suzuki either and who could blame him?
He knew the Soviets would only cramp his style and make him produce poxy things like the Trabant engine instead of giving him money to develop something great from his hard work.

Yes, the Poms' money woes were also of their own making with their " ok. you chaps, here it is - hope you like it! - these damn foreigners and their silly little motorcycles" attitude.

Joe Erlich didn't appear to fulfil his early potential, but he could have been like Dr Gordon Blair from Queens University in Belfast, who kept a relatively low profile even though he was doing a lot of Yamaha's development work.

Dont knock the Bantam!! (half time engine! - :mad:).

[F5 Dave]

Well the Bantam wasn't a 1/2 time engine, I was inferring 4 strokes. The Bantam was war reparations lifted from DKW (& inversed). They just could have done better, ahh heck it made them bread & butter sure.

Kaaden needed funds for contraband parts like forks etc, that's the Dr Joe connection. He was apparently offered to go over to Suzuki but was loyal. Answering to the GRD Stasi wouldn't have been in anyone's plans intentionally. Suzuki never acknowledged his input. But somewhat later Yamaha did (as there is always a bleed of technology with people in same country).

[WilDun]

Well the Bantam wasn't a 1/2 time engine, I was inferring 4 strokes. The Bantam was war reparations lifted from DKW (& inversed). They just could have done better, ahh heck it made them bread & butter sure.

Suzuki never acknowledged his input. But somewhat later Yamaha did (as there is always a bleed of technology with people in same country).

Thats amazing, and I did hear that Suzuki used other people's ideas without payment or acknowlegment, eg. the early RM rear suspension (after the guy submitted his idea to them for evaluation).
Did Degner leave with Kaaden's blessing or was he just a theiving sod? - Obviously he was privvy to all the plans and notes.
Sounds that there was sculduggery going on all round!

(Ah yeah, half time engine, - understand now, - rusty on all the modern jargon ).
Always been a two stroke fan, right from the time I first saw the MZ and Bultaco racing and they had got to the dizzy heights of 200 BHP/litre.

Will.

[husaberg]

Thats amazing, and I did hear that Suzuki used other people's ideas without payment or acknowlegment, eg. the early RM rear suspension (after the guy submitted his idea to them for evaluation).
Did Degner leave with Kaaden's blessing or was he just a theiving sod? - Obviously he was privvy to all the plans and notes.
Sounds that there was sculduggery going on all round!

(Ah yeah, half time engine, - understand now, - rusty on all the modern jargon ).
Always been a two stroke fan, right from the time I first saw the MZ and Bultaco racing and they had got to the dizzy heights of 200 BHP/litre.

Will.

My understanding is Kaaden had no love at all for Degner (after he left anyway)
I will post the interview with him or at least link it.


Father of the modern 2 stroke

Alfred Scott is maybe the grandfather.


kick on the arrow after Husaberg, click on the attachment a few times to supersize them.

[F5 Dave]

Did you realise Skulduggery is derived from a Scottish word implying fornication? Well that's trivia for today:sleep:.


There have been a wealth of MZ stories published, but the most recent & probably complete is Mat Oxley's Stealing Speed. Its also a damn fine read, I'd suggest it to anyone, have a look online bookstore for a copy. Kaaden felt very betrayed.


I've also read the Japanese Motorcycle wars. I would not recommend this to anyone except as a reference book. It will suck your will to stay awake.

[GerbilGronk]

Quote Originally Posted by F5 Dave View Post

"Suzuki never acknowledged his input. But somewhat later Yamaha did (as there is always a bleed of technology with people in same country)."

Suzuki ended up paying for the Full Floater suspension after a court case found in favour of the inventor Donald Richardson. Then I think they changed the setup so they wouldn't have to keep paying.

[WilDun]

My understanding is Kaaden had no love at all for Degner (after he left anyway)
I will post the interview with him or at least link it.



kick on the arrow after Husaberg, click on the attachment a few times to supersize them.

Getting back to the Scott motorcycles, I have a book somewhere which describes the inlet valves used on these machines. ( maybe they were experimental, I dunno).
From memory, rather than rotary valves they had inlet valves which were driven by the main conrod through a secondary rod to a lever which produced an oscillating motion of the drum of a cylindrical valve.
It's a bit hard to describe, but I'll try to find out, ( a picture is worth a thousand words!

Will.

[WilDun]

Quote Originally Posted by F5 Dave View Post


Suzuki ended up paying for the Full Floater suspension after a court case found in favour of the inventor Donald Richardson. Then I think they changed the setup so they wouldn't have to keep paying.

Glad to hear that there is some justice.

[Bender]

Mat Oxley's Stealing Speed. Its also a damn fine read, I'd suggest it to anyone, have a look online bookstore for a copy. Kaaden felt very betrayed.
.

Agree, a very interesting read. Anyone with access to Auckland's libraries will find they have a copy of the book.

[Yow Ling]

Seeing as you brought up Scotts bikes, that is where I stole Yow Ling from

The Yowling two stroke ,Scotts flying squirrels etc

[WilDun]

Seeing as you brought up Scotts bikes, that is where I stole Yow Ling from

The Yowling two stroke ,Scotts flying squirrels etc

You just never know how some of these names come about! and there was me trying hard not to make any disparaging remarks about Chinese bikes in case it might offend yow - sorry, 'you'!

I haven't found the details about the inlet valves as yet, but I know they're here somewhere.

Will.

[WilDun]

Scotts bikes,

- flying squirrels etc

Here you go, just scroll down to page 13 and there's a very good drawing of the oscillating inlet valve. - He was a clever guy.

http://www.scotttechnicalities.com.au/technicalities/Chapter%202/2.1%20Engine%20Topics.pdf

Will.

[unstuck]

Here you go, just scroll down to page 13 and there's a very good drawing of the oscillating inlet valve. - He was a clever guy.

http://www.scotttechnicalities.com.au/technicalities/Chapter%202/2.1%20Engine%20Topics.pdf

Will.

Very clever guy. Although why he would choose to turn to 3 wheeled vehicles seemed a little odd.:niceone:

[WilDun]

Very clever guy. Although why he would choose to turn to 3 wheeled vehicles seemed a little odd.:niceone:

I think that three wheeled vehicles in those days may have had reduced road tax rates compared to four wheeled,( at least in Britain), also designers were still 'feeling their way' with vehicle design and development.
Will.

[unstuck]

So he would of been somewhat responsible for the robin and rabbit then, the bastard.:ar15:

[Yow Ling]

At least his was a ring ding, Scott Sociable was more like a sidecar outfit than a3 wheel car, but certainly a classic of british inbreeding
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Scott_Sociable_02.jpg

[unstuck]

At least his was a ring ding, Scott Sociable was more like a sidecar outfit than a3 wheel car, but certainly a classic of british inbreeding


That looks a little unstable.:scratch:

[ellipsis]

That looks a little unstable.:scratch:

...you would say that of YL if you ever met him...

[unstuck]

...you would say that of YL if you ever met him...

Be like two peas in a pod then.:msn-wink:

[speedpro]

That looks a little unstable.:scratch:

That's good coming from someone who has a "2" wheeled vehicle.

[unstuck]

That's good coming from someone who has a "2" wheeled vehicle.

Actually have vehicles with 2, 3 , 4 and 10 wheels(22 if you count the trailer).:niceone:
And even a few with tracks.:bleh:

[Laava]

At least his was a ring ding, Scott Sociable was more like a sidecar outfit than a3 wheel car, but certainly a classic of british inbreeding
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Scott_Sociable_02.jpg

Looks like it has been crashed!

[koba]

I see it and think LCR...

[dangerous]

At least his was a ring ding, Scott Sociable was more like a sidecar outfit than a3 wheel car, but certainly a classic of british inbreeding
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Scott_Sociable_02.jpg 292897

hey... thats not so bad I have one just like it 292898

[WilDun]

At least his was a ring ding, Scott Sociable was more like a sidecar outfit than a3 wheel car, but certainly a classic of british inbreeding
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Scott_Sociable_02.jpg


Dangerous,
Yours isn't quite as pretty and I bet it doesn't corner as well as the Scott!

I see there is a single cylinder Panther 600 or 650, parked beside that Scott three wheeler- big long stroke single which would pull away at very low revs.
I owned one of those, although mine was a 600, with pneumatic forks up front and solid rear, it had a sidecar and we had a lot of fun racing that around the paddocks when we were teenagers.
We were always being reported to the cops by an interfering old biddy down the road, the cops always turned up and had an exciting time watching our capers then they just drove off back to town.

Cheers,
Will.

[T.W.R]

Don't confuse the design house with the designer.......even Oberdan Bezzi isn't allowed to mention what bikes he has worked on.
If you were to make that comparison. A modern Ducati and a Jawa would have a lot in comparison.

Also Hans was contracted to assist the design of the Kat. But only a fool would believe that to be a 100% german design. The fact it had IL4 accross, normal suspension, square headlight.........no to mention the 100's of other Mirai-tekina (futurist) rather than just modernest/bauhaus elements....I very much doubt this was a solo effort. Compare R-series BMWs and you soon see he had some outside help. I imagine there are a few unnamed, young, Japanese designers that were 'forgotten'. Even the XN85 seems to be more aligned with the BMW R-series than the orginal Kat.

Holden Viva = DeLorean + Ferrari?
Nah just same firm - different people.

Target weren't contracted for anything other than styling design but the 3 man team (the 2 mentioned & Muth) were all ex-BMW staffers


having had both... HOW THE FARK ya figger that???

1st article is from the 1st public outing at the Cologne Show
2nd article briefs the BMW connection in the second paragraph

[dangerous]

I wana see this Muth BMW...

[T.W.R]

I wana see this Muth BMW...

One of the birds in the Plains MC had one for years. Pretty exclusive one site reckons just over 6500 made and another site says just over 9500 between 1981-85 so a hell of a lot rarer than a Katana will ever be

1981 R65LS
http://www.bmbikes.co.uk/photos/specphotos/r65ls.jpg

[dangerous]

One of the birds in the Plains MC had one for years. Pretty exclusive one site reckons just over 6500 made and another site says just over 9500 between 1981-85 so a hell of a lot rarer than a Katana will ever be 1981 R65LS


Frances... I remember it, she might still have it, yeah Im with ya now I can see it :2thumbsup

[T.W.R]

Frances... I remember it, she might still have it, yeah Im with ya now I can see it :2thumbsup

That's the one ;)

There one on TM at the moment too

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/classic-vintage/auction-690096575.htm

[Flettner]

I see it as like all designs a compromise. Although in the Black and white pic in my post it does look like it does overhang the crank so maybe its not so bad? it could also be 6 transfer port as well?
In this case in order to both keep it reasonably narrow and keep the wheelbase down.
i would like to see some inside pics myself

I only just seen the inside pics of A "real" KR250 the other day. Its so bloodly clever.........
I like it far far better than a Rotax or its ilk. IMO its a better compromise........
I would do a v angle version though.........If i would get around to it lol.
Having said that i like the look of a repackaged longitudinal boxer "Koing but different" sort of 45 degree and stacked on the gearbox.

Just add a gearbox, 700cc twin, tilt the cylinders forward say 30 degrees and stuff the gearbox underneath. Also add EFI, vairable rotary valve and power valve. I'm sure a frame of some sort could be found for it. So who's up for one?

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/db714673.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/488ba783.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/84283c8e.jpg

[Flettner]

I for one would like a road / track bike powered by an engine such as this one day and I'm sure there are others out there also.

[WilDun]

I for one would like a road / track bike powered by an engine such as this one day and I'm sure there are others out there also.

FLETTNER.
Yes, I like this design ( I guess this one is for a microlight), - I also like the idea of a variable inlet valve - variable backplate to control both the opening and closing sides of the port?

HUSABERG. Not sure if a 'v' arrangement is better than this, as balance and compactness would favour this arrangement, two very good reasons why it would have been chosen for a microlight.

The 'V Due' with its 'V' arrangement may have been ok. I dunno, but it failed.

Pity about gearboxes and two stroke exhausts which would complicate this otherwise very neat engine design!

But then, I unfortunately don't have the money or the health, all I can do is drool, so count me out.

Will.

[Flettner]

This is the second version, same cylinders different configuration. I do have an interested party wanting a road going version of this engine, but one is not enough. ( two if you count me but I want either the tandem twin or the three cylinder version of this twin, 1050cc).

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_0862_zps6978d69e.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_0864_zpsf902f9e2.jpg

[F5 Dave]

I have a 1050 Triple, -but sadly no where near as cool as that:eek5:

[Kickaha]

( two if you count me but I want either the tandem twin or the three cylinder version of this twin, 1050cc).



Hmmmmmm we're allowed up to 1300cc two strokes in Sidecars:drool:

[Flettner]

Am I mistaken? Isn't / aren't there people out there that still want twostroke road bikes? Why not build a batch of bikes?
I've worked from home ten years now ( Autoflight Ltd ) and was out at a cafe a week ago ( I don't get out much ), you know street corner thing, and was disappointed at the lack of motor cycles riding past ( it is Hamilton ) and none were twostrokes at that!
Why not? They are not that hard to build. Wobbly could make "mean as" ( apparently what the young people say these days ) pipes.
Robs got EFI all but sorted, There is a perfectly sound foundry in Thames. AND we could make exactly what we want, no having to put up with manufactures short sightedness. That would be not making them powerful / light enough. Imagine a 220HP ish tripple weighing not much than a handfull of chainsaws.
Or not.
Just a thought.

[WilDun]

How are the vibration levels in the big twin?
I seem to remember in the early days the bigger twins suffered badly from the vibes (at least the riders did!). - Guess it's one up one down?

[jellywrestler]

Hmmmmmm we're allowed up to 1300cc two strokes in Sidecars:drool:

yeah and old flatmate was building a 5 cylinder waterbucket for one years back, crank was made of NOS TR750 parts, weighed a ton too

[Flettner]

How are the vibration levels in the big twin?
I seem to remember in the early days the bigger twins suffered badly from the vibes (at least the riders did!). - Guess it's one up one down?

You may notice on the twin cylinder gyro engine an after thought ( ballance shaft ). When I first built the engine it shook badly from about 3500 to 4000 and after that through to 7000 it was not as bad but never the less uncomfortable. So bad I was not willing to let it fly, I was sure the engine would come right out of the frame sooner or later! SO I manufactured a counter rotating ballance shaft, what a difference!
With this setup you could probably run different firing orders and not have to stick to 180 degrees. You will see it's a case reed type engine ( V force reeds ).

[WilDun]

Am I mistaken? Isn't / aren't there people out there that still want twostroke road bikes? Why not build a batch of bikes? Wobbly could make "mean as" ( apparently what the young people say these days ) pipes.
Robs got EFI all but sorted, There is a perfectly sound foundry in Thames. Imagine a 220HP ish tripple weighing not much than a handfull of chainsaws.
Or not.
Just a thought.

Yes, I would like to see that! and you seem to have the means, the enthusiasm, the contacts (with people with expertise here) and faith in the two stroke.
We are allowed much more latitude with the use of two strokes in this country, why not make use of it? - at the same time of course, making sure that the "two stroke pollution" problem is addressed! - How about OMC and Bombardier's technological advances in this area.

Trouble is, the young people have been conditioned into following American trends, which means complicated, heavy and expensive four strokes, (some as we know, being very retro and agricultural, with about the same power output as an old V-Dub) - whatever.
With the majority of young people at the moment, it isn't cool to have a two stroke on the road and they are the potential customers!

I'm very interested in flying too and have dabbled in that a little in the past. I do like your tandem twin concept. - do you use a proprietary gearbox? - do they give any trouble with prop backlash etc. (torsional vibration)?

BTW - who is Rob? - I thought it was you, - sorry, you're Neil!
I've got to get to know who is who around here I guess! :laugh:

[Flettner]

Yes, I would like to see that! and you seem to have the means, the enthusiasm, the contacts (with people with expertise here) and faith in the two stroke.
We are allowed much more latitude with the use of two strokes in this country, why not make use of it? - at the same time of course, making sure that the "two stroke pollution" problem is addressed! - How about the OEM and Bombardier's technological advances in this area.

Trouble is, the young people have been conditioned into following American trends, which means complicated, heavy and expensive four strokes, (some as we know, being very retro and agricultural, with about the same power output as an old V-Dub) - whatever.
With the majority of young people at the moment, it isn't cool to have a two stroke on the road and they are the potential customers!

I'm very interested in flying too and have dabbled in that a little in the past. I do like your tandem twin concept. - do you use a proprietary gearbox? - do they give any trouble with prop backlash?

BTW - who is Rob? - I thought it was you, - got to get to know who is who here I guess! :laugh:

Yes we can clean the twostroke up a little without going to complicated DI. I have shown this to be possible with the YZ250 EFI project, 14 to 20% less fuel burn over a standard unit under the same conditions and I'm sure with a little more injection timming fine adjustment it could be even better.

Autoflight builds aviation gear reduction units ( gearboxes ) so I've made all the gearboxes on my aviation engines. I made a mistake on the tandem design. I had one piston up and one down with both cranks turning the same direction, resonable ballance but terrible tortional vibration problems. Still not a real problem accept I made the crank drive gears too small and the taper attachment wasn't up to the job. I should have changed the way the gears were attached to the crank and used bigger diameter gears. But as usual I just put it under the bench ( lucky under the bench has a lot of room ) and started on a parallel twin. Although no more crank / drive issues the parallel twin vibrated as I said earlier. For the gyro application the I think the parallel is the better engine ( with ballance shaft ) as the exhausts are easier to run and I think customers see it as more normal. A bit like a Rotax.

I keep an eye on that tandem with a view to make a road going twostroke bike and with the succsess of transfer port EFI leaves the intake very short ( no carburetor sticking out ),one of the problems with side rotary valve engines. I do like the sound and the " feel " of the rotary valve twostroke. The sliding rotary valve cover ( valve timming adjustment ) just makes it all the better. My F9 Kawasaki using this tec has a very wide torque curve, as seen on Rob's ( TZ350 ) dyno.

The real problem is time as I have more than one project on the go.

Young people ( fourstroke riders ) don't know what they are missing!

[F5 Dave]

Well strangely it's the 'mercans that have made modern 2stroke easy and almost affordable to the average bloke. There are now a heap of big bore banshee engine kits in RZs reframed into something decent about the place, though I only know of a few in NZ. . . And mine is the only registered one (sadly on hold). Search Trinity website or CP industries to see what is available. It is dirty and compromised, but requires less involved engineering.

[WilDun]

Autoflight builds aviation gear reduction units ( gearboxes ) so I've made all the gearboxes on my aviation engines. I made a mistake on the tandem design. I had one piston up and one down with both cranks turning the same direction, resonable ballance but terrible tortional vibration problems. Still not a real problem accept I made the crank drive gears too small and the taper attachment wasn't up to the job. I should have changed the way the gears were attached to the crank and used bigger diameter gears.


Young people ( fourstroke riders ) don't know what they are missing!

FLETTNER.
Yes, young people don't know, full stop! - they don't care how it works they just go with the flow.
If it looks pretty, sounds like the current noise is supposed to be and consequently has sex appeal, then that's what they want (and buy), never mind the cost! - a bit like paying for bottled water!

Hope you get the tandem sorted out with counter rotation - it's got possibilites I reckon!

DAVE,
If those big American companies see fit to spend money on development work and productoon of two strokes then you can bet that the two stroke hasn't disappeared forever! They just have to fight to bring back the younger people whose minds have been poisoned by the anti two stroke brigade!

Cheers.

Will

[husaberg]

Just add a gearbox, 700cc twin, tilt the cylinders forward say 30 degrees and stuff the gearbox underneath. Also add EFI, vairable rotary valve and power valve. I'm sure a frame of some sort could be found for it. So who's up for one?
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/db714673.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/488ba783.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/84283c8e.jpg

sure looks the shizzle... but how to go fitting in those huge exhausts for the 350cc cylinders would be the packaging issues
It would be a mental ride though........

[dangerous]

I keep an eye on that tandem with a view to make a road going twostroke bike and with the succsess of transfer port EFI leaves the intake very short ( no carburetor sticking out ),one of the problems with side rotary valve engines. I do like the sound and the " feel " of the rotary valve twostroke. The sliding rotary valve cover ( valve timming adjustment ) just makes it all the better. My F9 Kawasaki using this tec has a very wide torque curve, as seen on Rob's ( TZ350 ) dyno.

as a ex stroker racer that would be awesome, Id be in... with the know how you obviously have have you ever thought about a MVX250 type engine, or re working one so as it is relible?
I know a guy with a Vdue its not run in years and has thousands of faults on the ECU, again could you get one as a EFI sorted, and why would you use EFI over carbs anyway, try to clean the emisions up and ya put the engine at risk. a quality fuel and syn T2 is about as clean as a engine can run.

Does your engine use power valves?

[Kickaha]

and why would you use EFI over carbs anyway
Because FI is betterer

try to clean the emisions up and ya put the engine at risk. a quality fuel and syn T2 is about as clean as a engine can run.
:lol: Yeah right

[husaberg]

Because FI is betterer

:lol: Yeah right

When a two smoke is on the pipe it is quite clean... its just all the time it spends not on the pipe on the road that's the emissions problem.
On the whole all Bike engines are all dirty.......If don't believe me compare the fuel efficiency and and emissions for a modern 100hp bike and 100hp car.......

[koba]

FLETTNER.
Yes, young people don't know, full stop! - they don't care how it works they just go with the flow.
If it looks pretty, sounds like the current noise is supposed to be and consequently has sex appeal, then that's what they want (and buy), never mind the cost! - a bit like paying for bottled water!

Hope you get the tandem sorted out with counter rotation - it's got possibilites I reckon!

DAVE,
If those big American companies see fit to spend money on development work and production of two strokes then you can bet that the two stroke hasn't disappeared forever! They just have to fight to bring back the younger people whose minds have been poisoned by the anti two stroke brigade!

Cheers.

Will


Bah! Humbug!

I was lucky enough to have a few beers with Dave Croxford one day, it was at a planned but quite informal dinner (Beers) kind of thing.
He was talking about the start of his career and spending all of his money to 'tick up' the latest and greatest super-dooper off the shelf race bike at the time.

Sure he was a youth then but not 'the youth of today'. (Sorry Dave, if you ever read this I know you are young at heart!)

It think he said he borrowed quite a lot of coin from his Mum.

Conversely, I also know many a Youth, (Shit, Don't think I quite count any more) that is quite the opposite in the approach taken, more on the 'do-and-be-involved' side than the 'buy-and-go' approach.

Having said all that, younger people won't get into the mechanical side of the sport the same without the help of older heads heavy with experience; better to be fostering rather than adversarial.

[WilDun]

Bah! Humbug!

I was lucky enough to have a few beers with Dave Croxford one day,

Conversely, I also know many a Youth that is more on the 'do-and-be-involved' side than the 'buy-and-go' approach.

Having said all that, younger people won't get into the mechanical side of the sport the same without the help of older heads heavy with experience; better to be fostering rather than adversarial.

Dve Croxford - there's a name I haven't heard for quite some time!

I guess you are talking about the Bucket Racer types when you say 'do and be involved', and yes it is better to be fostering rather than adversarial.
We were all bucket racer types in my youth, - then there was very little of the window dressing and marketing ploys used to sell bikes, as there is today, - we just built our own "specials" if we wanted something different.
At least the bucket boys are interested in knowing every nut and bolt which to me is great!

I kept a couple of little motocrossers for my kids (teenagers then) and maintained them, but they were only interested in riding them, not maintaining or cleaning them! So I sold them, - bad move, I missed out on my bikes and they just went off and played football, enjoying themselves anyway! :(

Will.

[koba]

Dve Croxford - there's a name I haven't heard for quite some time!

I guess you are talking about the Bucket Racer types when you say 'do and be involved', and yes it is better to be fostering rather than adversarial.
We were all bucket racer types in my youth, - then there was very little of the window dressing and marketing ploys used to sell bikes, as there is today, - we just built our own "specials" if we wanted something different.
At least the bucket boys are interested in knowing every nut and bolt which to me is great!

I kept a couple of little motocrossers for my kids (teenagers then) and maintained them, but they were only interested in riding them, not maintaining or cleaning them! So I sold them, - bad move, I missed out on my bikes and they just went off and played football, enjoying themselves anyway! :(

Will.


This magnificent sport isn't for everyone!

[Yow Ling]

try to clean the emisions up and ya put the engine at risk. a quality fuel and syn T2 is about as clean as a engine can run.

What a load of bullshit

[F5 Dave]

. . .
I know a guy with a Vdue its not run in years and has thousands of faults on the ECU, . . .

Yup I've been dreaming of one of them.

Rip out the crappy Italian Morrini built cockup engine & replace with a YPVS big bore. Yum!

[Flettner]

as a ex stroker racer that would be awesome, Id be in... with the know how you obviously have have you ever thought about a MVX250 type engine, or re working one so as it is relible?
I know a guy with a Vdue its not run in years and has thousands of faults on the ECU, again could you get one as a EFI sorted, and why would you use EFI over carbs anyway, try to clean the emisions up and ya put the engine at risk. a quality fuel and syn T2 is about as clean as a engine can run.

Does your engine use power valves?

Wow, a real one? ( Vdue ), I wonder how hard it would be to fit an aftermarket ECU to it. Modern computers have come a long way since that engine. EFI has big advantages in stopping fuel escaping out the exhaust ( un burn't ). The key is the injection timing at the transfer port, almost what Bimota were trying to do.
Not having a carb on a side intake rotary valve is very desirable, makes for a much thinner engine and very short intake.

I think the YZ250 we have running on EFI says we have transfer port injection sorted in a twostroke. We haven't had a spanner or computer near it in, well, it would almost be years now.

[WilDun]

The key is the injection timing at the transfer port.
I think the YZ250 we have running on EFI says we have transfer port injection sorted in a twostroke.

I must admit rhat I'm a little hazy on the laws in America which seem to discriminate against the two stroke!

What are the reasons given by the American lawmakers for banning two strokes anyway?
Did they ban them just because they were two strokes or because they didn't measure up to their ideas on emission levels?

Did they assume that all two strokes are the same and put a blanket ban on them? or ban them just because they were crankcase charged two strokes (consequently having to use petrol/oil mix)?

Would they have banned them if they had used, say, poppet valves and blower charging, without the fuel/oil mix, even though they were two strokes?

Now that fuel injection has obviously sorted a lot of the problems that they (two strokes) were banned for, are the lawmakers likely to have a change of opinion or are they puppets to big four stroke manufacturers, as I have heard suggested?

OMC etc (I think I said OEM earlier! :facepalm:) still persevere with two strokes so that is a good sign!

Will.

[Pumba]

...OMC etc...Will.

I am going to assume that you mean Bombardier? As OMC went bankrupt back in about 2000 and the Johnson and Evinrude brands were sold off to Bombardier.

[Yow Ling]

While we are talking about emissions, the RD400 Daytona was a special American version, they got it instead of The LC.
they knew the emissions were worst on a closed throttle so they simply put butterfly valves in the headers , close throttle , shut pipes, passed emissions testing
Then the poor bastards got RZ350's with cat converters.

[mr bucketracer]

DSCF0224.JPG (202.9 KB)what is wrong with this , had to take a pic of it

[F5 Dave]

Um, dunno, can't see tank badge to see if its supposed to be an impostor. Kawasaki bought out Mellurgo (or someone like that) who made a fairly convincing A7 copy (I'm not that clued up on old BSA designs, maybe a A10), whatever. But about a Decade ago they released a retro version what did they call them? W6 or something (too lazy to google).

[husaberg]

Um, dunno, can't see tank badge to see if its supposed to be an impostor. Kawasaki bought out Mellurgo (or someone like that) who made a fairly convincing A7 copy (I'm not that clued up on old BSA designs, maybe a A10), whatever. But about a Decade ago they released a retro version what did they call them? W6 or something (too lazy to google).

pretty close they did a 500 and 650 had a shorter stroke than the A10 and some had twin carbs, i think some even had a 5 speed likely an alloy cylinder as well. The lateast Kawa (muzzaB has one) is a totally different design with a bevel OHC (completed without googler)
thre was a Twin carb head on Ebay for about 40 US a while back i couldn't get Kicka to buy it for his a10.

[mr bucketracer]

pretty close they did a 500 and 650 had a shorter stroke than the A10 and some had twin carbs, i think some even had a 5 speed likely an alloy cylinder as well. The lateast Kawa (muzzaB has one) is a totally different design with a bevel OHC (completed without googler)
thre was a Twin carb head on Ebay for about 40 US a while back i couldn't get Kicka to buy it for his a10.i think there is a 2 sec gap between them on a big track .. i have rode both . the later bike over turns where the later one one will run wide but in saying that i think now i know more you could jak the ass of the nf4 and steer it better .. dennis Charlett did try to make a old model go as good as the later ones but even he could not pull it of .. good guy to talk to about it

[T.W.R]

DSCF0224.JPG (202.9 KB)what is wrong with this , had to take a pic of it

It's a bitsa A W1 with a A65 tank

[husaberg]

I would have said an A10 tank around 59 with the chrome panels painted as the center bolt looks high and the tank looks long, but not so sure now.
either way looks better for it the Kawa never looked right..... just needs a better shaped seat now. plus the round badged tank i guess.
IMO the bsa's actually look better with the Suzuki GSX tank anyway.......Grump will have a pic of Howard's or Jungles. While i am f-ing off the purists.
Throw in A mo Harley frame with a couple of inches taken out as the A65 steered better for the missing 2 inches anyway......(Fing ugly engine though)

[dangerous]

What a load of bullshit

:lol: Yeah right



When a two smoke is on the pipe it is quite clean... its just all the time it spends not on the pipe on the road that's the emissions problem.
On the whole all Bike engines are all dirty.......If don't believe me compare the fuel efficiency and and emissions for a modern 100hp bike and 100hp car.......
yeah was kinda what I was meaning, the dirty Guzzi and Buell in the garage even tho FI would put out as much shit in the air as a well tuned stroker on quality fuels, as for a diesel engine... come on way dirtyer than a stroker I have the same as you YL on start up they stink like hell.

[WilDun]

I am going to assume that you mean Bombardier? As OMC went bankrupt back in about 2000 and the Johnson and Evinrude brands were sold off to Bombardier.

:laugh: as I said before, I come from way back! - Ok, Bombardier then, (they own just about every industry in the Western world don't they?).

Will.

[Flettner]

What frame? To put this tandem twin into. Or make one? Triangulated chrome molly tube perhaps?
Twin shock or single? I'm assuming bare bones look.

[Yow Ling]

What frame? To put this tandem twin into. Or make one? Triangulated chrome molly tube perhaps?
Twin shock or single? I'm assuming bare bones look.
put the tandem twin in side by side, with a bmw or guzzi transmission inplace of your PSR , carbs forward like a reverse tzr , pipes could be vaugley reminisint of cx500, would be a cool bears bike

[WilDun]

Still wrestling with Photobucket to get them to release the pictures!

[husaberg]

Still wrestling with Photobucket to get them to release the pictures!

to get photobucket to cough up you use the different size options?

later sorry thats flicker

photobucket just right clickyidy click...

[WilDun]

http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g442/willybert/Barton7505.jpg


Of course I realise that with the big twin (say 1000cc there would be much bigger cylinders/crankases and pipes to deal with, but with simultaneous firing, could it be possible to use only one chamber, would two be necessary?

Will.

[WilDun]

Thanks Husa,
Bit embarrasing! - but I'll get there in my usual slow befuddled way!:yes:

[husaberg]

Thanks Husa,
Bit embarrasing! - but I'll get there in my usual slow befuddled way!:yes:

To be fair i have posted a fair few pics and attachments on KB;)
2638 actually.........
if you click on my name and view attachment by user set to ascending and 70 pics per page you will find some buell and spartan barry Hart etc stuff buried somewhere.........

[Grumph]

What frame? To put this tandem twin into. Or make one? Triangulated chrome molly tube perhaps?
Twin shock or single? I'm assuming bare bones look.

The final version Kawasaki KR250/350 frame is a seriously good piece of kit and quite easy to copy. I'm sure husa will find a pic or two..

I'd do it as you originally suggested, tandem, contra rotating. Narrow is good....

[husaberg]

The final version Kawasaki KR250/350 frame is a seriously good piece of kit and quite easy to copy. I'm sure husa will find a pic or two..

I'd do it as you originally suggested, tandem, contra rotating. Narrow is good....

probably posted them already in the chassis thread lol.....

[T.W.R]

The final version Kawasaki KR250/350 frame is a seriously good piece of kit and quite easy to copy. I'm sure husa will find a pic or two..

I'd do it as you originally suggested, tandem, contra rotating. Narrow is good....

Same as Armstrong CFR with the CM36 motor 180deg firing :yes:

[speedpro]

Fitting the rear pipe would be fun. So many options for routing but some not so good. Single fire 1000 twin? - good luck kicking that over, or making a transmission for it.

[Flettner]

The final version Kawasaki KR250/350 frame is a seriously good piece of kit and quite easy to copy. I'm sure husa will find a pic or two..

I'd do it as you originally suggested, tandem, contra rotating. Narrow is good....

Thats probably the best idea.
I'm thinking maybe 90 degree firing cranks with a ballance shaft in there somewhere to help the transmission. I haven't looked at the ballance possibilities yet.

[F5 Dave]

Fitting the rear pipe would be fun. So many options for routing but some not so good. Single fire 1000 twin? - good luck kicking that over, or making a transmission for it.

Fair call, might as well make it a single then. say somewhere around 100mm piston square stroke. Would make a cool noise.

[T.W.R]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=293226&d=1391459602

[husaberg]

as a ex stroker racer that would be awesome, Id be in... with the know how you obviously have have you ever thought about a MVX250 type engine, or re working one so as it is relible?
I know a guy with a Vdue its not run in years and has thousands of faults on the ECU, again could you get one as a EFI sorted, and why would you use EFI over carbs anyway, try to clean the emisions up and ya put the engine at risk. a quality fuel and syn T2 is about as clean as a engine can run.

Does your engine use power valves?


Thats probably the best idea.
I'm thinking maybe 90 degree firing cranks with a ballance shaft in there somewhere to help the transmission. I haven't looked at the ballance possibilities yet.

My head says big twin in a v for packaging, My balls say twin crank V4, but my heart says V3 about 450-550cc...
what ever it is it has to have parts available to suit at a good price..like 125mx or 54mm twin cranks or whatever......
i actually think a twin crank v4 might be cheap to replicate than a v3.......
although i guess if one were to use snowmoble and jet ski cranks etc i guess anything goes......

pics and many many more.....http://moto-works.bravejournal.com/

[WilDun]

Quote by SPEEDPRO -"Fitting the rear pipe would be fun. So many options for routing but some not so good. Single fire 1000 twin? - good luck kicking that over, or making a transmission for it."

Quote by F5 DAVE, - "Fair call, might as well make it a single then. say somewhere around 100mm piston square stroke. Would make a cool noise"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah well, the 1000cc was just a figure that came into my head, but say if you did go to that capacity then I think that two cylinders half that size with contra rotating cranks and simultaneous firing would be much more manageable from a vibration point of view and also a seizure point of view (big piston). Also using one chamber would save quite a lot of space.

Kicking it over? road bike? these days? - try that with one of the new big twins etc. on the market! How about a de-compressor on one cylinder?

Overworked gearbox? - look at the hiding an everyday motocross gearbox takes.

Flettner could have the vibes licked with balance shafts using other phasing of course.

DAVE, I do realize your answer was tongue in cheek of course, but my belief is that every joke is inspired by a serious thought!

Or have I got it all wrong? :confused:

Will.

[F5 Dave]

. . .

Overworked gearbox? - look at the hiding an everyday motocross gearbox takes.

. . .
Not trying to pick, but an MX gearbox has to cope with circa 45hp (250 2 smoke or 450 4) & limited traction. Most of its abuse will be on the dogs during changes.

[WilDun]

Not trying to pick, but an MX gearbox has to cope with circa 45hp (250 2 smoke or 450 4) & limited traction. Most of its abuse will be on the dogs during changes.

I'm told that there are clutches (from simple slipper clutches, to clutches similar to those used on many limited slip diffs) on the market which could make conditions better for the gearbox.
Setups similar to this (again I'm told) have been used to combat torsional vibration on light aircraft propellor reduction units (which also take a hiding).

Is it possible that this type of setup could make conditions a little more tolerable for the gearbox on such a bike?

Then again I could be getting into the realms of fantasy, - and again, maybe not! :wacko:

Will.

[Grumph]

Not trying to pick, but an MX gearbox has to cope with circa 45hp (250 2 smoke or 450 4) & limited traction. Most of its abuse will be on the dogs during changes.

Not quite right dave - the shock loads from jump landings are worse...

It is possible to make ridiculously small boxes live behind big motors - The worst case i know of is probably Norton boxes in sidecars behind things like big Hillman Imp motors - 100plus HP and heavy loads. Solution was to run the box at almost engine speed. This reduces the torque seen at the gears to something livable.

Starting would have to be easier than a bloody Britten too. I was involved on the side of the project to put an electric leg on the motor for a possible customer. As will has suggested, decompressors are easy to do.

[WilDun]

Solution was to run the box at almost engine speed. This reduces the torque seen at the gears to something livable.
.

Just a thought, would a normal multiplate wet clutch (with all it's drag) be suitable in that situation?

[F5 Dave]

Not quite right dave - the shock loads from jump landings are worse...

. . .
You're right - I hadn't considered that. I try not to leave the ground for any extended period on the dirtbikes.:o

[Flettner]

My head says big twin in a v for packaging, My balls say twin crank V4, but my heart says V3 about 450-550cc...
what ever it is it has to have parts available to suit at a good price..like 125mx or 54mm twin cranks or whatever......
i actually think a twin crank v4 might be cheap to replicate than a v3.......
although i guess if one were to use snowmoble and jet ski cranks etc i guess anything goes......

pics and many many more.....http://moto-works.bravejournal.com/

I was just thinking twin ( 700cc ) because I already have one, two if you count the parallel twin. I like 350cc cylinders as I have the mould to make them and seem to get acceptable results with this size cylinder. It would never be a world beater but it would be a lot of fun and I would imagine more power to weight than most people could handle. Parts for this size cylinder are cheap and available.
I would make the cranks anyway, suit what was needed with no compromise.

[husaberg]

I was just thinking twin ( 700cc ) because I already have one, two if you count the parallel twin. I like 350cc cylinders as I have the mould to make them and seem to get acceptable results with this size cylinder. It would never be a world beater but it would be a lot of fun and I would imagine more power to weight than most people could handle. Parts for this size cylinder are cheap and available.
I would make the cranks anyway, suit what was needed with no compromise.

Stop doing stuff ya bugger. i think big is best but a 700cc stroke might be a nightmare to pipe. Then again its doesn't have to be optimal with 700cc i guess.;)
I think there would be a market for a Yamaha style 500 four neither of which my riding ability is going to challenge......

[Grumph]

Just a thought, would a normal multiplate wet clutch (with all it's drag) be suitable in that situation?

It can be - but a dry diaphragm clutch is better. Run at engine speed or close to it, it doesn't have to be very big at all.

Apparently Cosworth were horrified at the size of clutch Norton wanted on the twin...Cosworth reckoned it was capable of handling about 300HP.....At crank speed which they were used to.

[husaberg]

I'm told that there are clutches (from simple slipper clutches, to clutches similar to those used on many limited slip diffs) on the market which could make conditions better for the gearbox.
Setups similar to this (again I'm told) have been used to combat torsional vibration on light aircraft propellor reduction units (which also take a hiding).

Is it possible that this type of setup could make conditions a little more tolerable for the gearbox on such a bike?

Then again I could be getting into the realms of fantasy, - and again, maybe not! :wacko:

Will.

Slipper or sprag clutchs are about overun, the motogp bikes now handle it more indirectly by not closing all the trotal bodies as you can do with FBW throttles and injection.
Funny enough Croxford said the cossy would lock on overrun, the NR500 (possibly on of the foirst bikes to have one)had one and was unridable without it.........

[Flettner]

I have a Rekluse clutch in my YZ 250 twostroke ( mine is not the fuel injected one ) . I did not want to have it fitted, from an engineering point of view I hate the way it slips as it engages, quite a wide engagement range.
But after trying it out I'm shocked at how it changes the bikes power delivery. Before the Rekluse fitment it's typical 250 MX twostroke ( with aftermarket pipe, V force reeds ) snappy and liable to break traction without warning. With the Rekluse I can out traction a fourstroke MX bike out of most corners, with slippery corners I have the advantage. It won't be released from service, I like it.
I'm not sure how this would equate to a 700cc road bike but I'm sure if it helps the bike from breaking traction with out warning, it's got to be a step in the right direction.
This is why I'm so interested in the rotary valve engine, as I can control the throttle and timing via the computer. Computer will have various inputs that will help control ( dampen ) the riders irratic throttle commands. In my case sometimes not well thought out commands.

[WilDun]

Slipper or sprag clutchs are about overun, the motogp bikes now handle it more indirectly by not closing all the trotal bodies as you can do with FBW throttles and injection.
Funny enough Croxford said the cossy would lock on overrun, the NR500 (possibly on of the foirst bikes to have one)had one and was unridable without it.........

My motorcycling stopped abruptly in 1983 after a crash, not because i was permanently injured but my wife banned me from riding bikes anymore! - so I have lost track of what has been going on since and I'm not up with the play re: sprag clutches and exactly how they work, but I've got a fair idea though.

However, I read up an article on aircraft reduction drives and their problems after having had a flight in a light aircraft - when it was sitting at idle waiting for take off, the engine and prop were fighting each other and the whole plane (literally) was being shaken so bad it worried me a lot!
It had a Rotax flat four, which should be smooth, but those props sure can create havoc at certain revs!

When a sprag clutch lets go, does it just release for a second or so and then re-engage itself?

Will.

[husaberg]

My motorcycling stopped abruptly in 1983 after a crash, not because i was permanently injured but my wife banned me from riding bikes anymore! - so I have lost track of what has been going on since and I'm not up with the play re: sprag clutches and exactly how they work, but I've got a fair idea though.



the simple ones kind of look like a primary drive shock absorber on a old BSA ......
the rekluse are a centrifugal design clutch with balls they have a model that is auto yet still has a overriding lever clutch as well.
The Vincent had a cool servo clutch.
the diaphragm clutch also has a clever foible for lighter action.....

[WilDun]

It can be - but a dry diaphragm clutch is better. Run at engine speed or close to it, it doesn't have to be very big at all.

Apparently Cosworth were horrified at the size of clutch Norton wanted on the twin...Cosworth reckoned it was capable of handling about 300HP.....At crank speed which they were used to.

Norton did have a big single plate dry clutch on the Commando didn't they (I seem to remember reading that when they first came out) ?. - Guess it had to be big to handle the geared down torque.

FLETTNER, - guess that is the type of device I was trying to explain, but I'm sadly lacking in knowledge on modern day developments.

Will.

[WilDun]

the simple ones kind of look like a primary drive shock absorber on a old BSA ......
the rekluse are a centrifugal design clutch with balls they have a model that is auto yet still has a overriding lever clutch as well.
The Vincent had a cool servo clutch.
the diaphragm clutch also has a clever foible for lighter action.....

Sort of copied from the Honda C50 then! ;)

But now I'm now beginning to fill in the gaps between 1983 and 2014, - thanks.

Will.

[Henk]

Those rekluse type clutches were great for hole shots on MX tracks, not so good for clutch pop wheelies over logs in enduros. They have probably moved on from when I was playing in the dirt.

[husaberg]

Sort of copied from the Honda C50 then! ;)

A bit flashier than that just google it or i will in a moment.........

[WilDun]

A bit flashier than that just google it or i will in a moment.........

Basic principle is simple by the looks, but seems to have become quite sophistocated in its construction.

HENK, - to me, popping wheelies in the streets isn't necessary at all, - very spectacular but very dangerous, - (read H1A Kawasaki) - they sure could have done with it!

Thanks,
Will.

[Henk]

HENK, - to me, popping wheelies in the streets isn't necessary at all, - very spectacular but very dangerous, - (read H1A Kawasaki) - they sure could have done with it!

Thanks,
Will.

Will

I've only ever poped wheelies on my road bike and bucket by accident, but off road they become necessary to hop logs and jump ditches.

Buckets at Mt Wellington this weekend by the way. Will be a quiet non points weekend.

[WilDun]

Will

I've only ever poped wheelies on my road bike and bucket by accident, but off road they become necessary to hop logs and jump ditches.

Buckets at Mt Wellington this weekend by the way. Will be a quiet non points weekend.

True Henk, the only reason i didn't do wheelies on the road was because very few of my early bikes were capable and I only did it on the track after that!

Might try to pop over to Mt Wellington Sat or Sun, but I don't think it would be a wise idea to try riding, my heart says yes, but my body and my wife say NO! :laugh:
(A couple of years ago I ended up in hospital for a week when my mobility scooter ran off the ramp as I was unloading it off my old jeep in Bunnings carpark!).

Will.

[Henk]

Will

If you turn up, I'll be the guy with the ugly white transit van and the blue bike with 13 on the front, if I've bothered unloading it.

[mr bucketracer]

True Henk, the only reason i didn't do wheelies on the road was because very few of my early bikes were capable and I only did it on the track after that!

Might try to pop over to Mt Wellington Sat or Sun, but I don't think it would be a wise idea to try riding, my heart says yes, but my body and my wife say NO! :laugh:
(A couple of years ago I ended up in hospital for a week when my mobility scooter ran off the ramp as I was unloading it off my old jeep in Bunnings carpark!).

Will.293314 so your a woman will:killingme

[WilDun]

so your a woman will:killingme

Eh?.....nah,......but I do sympathise with that poor woman, I do know how she felt and at least I didn't get photographed (I hope I didn't anyway!) that was a bit rough photographing her I reckon .......
I did draw quite a crowd though, but some of them did a lot to help me, got to be thankful for that.

I have now managed to get myself back to being reasonably mobile again and so I don't need a scooter anymore, but I do enjoy the odd jaunt in it in lieu of a bike ride!

I just hope that they didn't discover the experimental tandem twin engine in that scooter when they took it back to my place, ie. after I was carted away in the ambulance!

Ok. now, let's get back on track here.

[mr bucketracer]

Eh?.....nah,......but I do sympathise with that poor woman, I do know how she felt and at least I didn't get photographed (I hope I didn't anyway!) that was a bit rough photographing her I reckon .......
I did draw quite a crowd though, but some of them did a lot to help me, got to be thankful for that.

I have now managed to get myself back to being reasonably mobile again and so I don't need a scooter anymore, but I do enjoy the odd jaunt in it in lieu of a bike ride!

I just hope that they didn't discover the experimental tandem twin engine in that scooter when they took it back to my place, ie. after I was carted away in the ambulance!

Ok. now, let's get back on track here.yip she did not look happy .. getting athristis 11 years ago i know how is can be easy to end up in a scooter but at 28 i was not going to do the lol but just crawl around on the ground untill they worked out what was wrong .. but yes a would have to put a nice motor in a scooter if it came to that lol

[Yow Ling]

I was thinking when I get my mobility scooter it would need a 4t scootermotor with cvt to handle the highway part of the trip to to the shops 80kph should do.

[speedpro]

Battery technology is advancing so quickly you won't need a petrol motor, electric will be fine, with the right mods.

10 years time us bucket racers will be comparing SCRs and inverters and battery management systems, and there'll be charging points in the pits.

[WilDun]

Battery technology is advancing so quickly you won't need a petrol motor, electric will be fine, with the right mods.

10 years time us bucket racers will be comparing SCRs and inverters and battery management systems, and there'll be charging points in the pits.

Strangely enough I believe that, - electric motors really have the grunt, and we can forget about complicated gearboxes and clutches, - just the battery technology and the production of enough power to recharge everybody's batteries, - but the saving grace is there's sun and wind!

Just imagine, the little poor guy racing on a shoestring budget, sitting in the paddock hoping like hell the batteries will be charged in time for the next race, while the "fat cats" have already rolled out another set of fully charged batteries and installed them just after the last race! :weep:

[F5 Dave]

They better be a damn sight better than the Camry hybrid rental I drove last week. Talk about inconsistent shiete.

[Flettner]

Finaly some progress on the 360 rotary valve engine. Still have to 3D machine the valve inlet port yet.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4876_zps5ba7f8ee.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4873_zpse698de31.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4872_zps31d02343.jpg

[TZ350]

I am really looking forward to seeing this on the dyno.

[GerbilGronk]

That ain't no ordinary cylinder on there.

[husaberg]

Looks sexy i kind of jizzed a little............

[husaberg]

When you have a few minute Neil maybe during smoko or something whip us up a few of these cases would ya<_<

[husaberg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d3hdDgFMrQ
Rc166 DOCO Haven't watched it but shame its in Japanese

[WilDun]

That ain't no ordinary cylinder on there.

No, I don't think that this particular cylinder will show a lot of HP on the dyno nor will it win any races, - we need to be patient here and see what transpires!

Will.

[husaberg]

No, I don't think that this particular cylinder will show a lot of HP on the dyno nor will it win any races, - we need to be patient here and see what transpires!

Will.

This isn't the rotary sleeve valve one will? I suggest it will make some pretty decent HP.

[WilDun]

This isn't the rotary sleeve valve one will? I suggest it will make some pretty decent HP.

Yes, potentially it will do just that, but if you study the pictures (one in particular) and read what I said, you'll see what I was meaning - still a way to go yet!

Will.

[husaberg]

Yes, potentially it will do just that, but if you study the pictures (one in particular) and read what I said, you'll see what I was meaning - still a way to go yet!

Will.

Not getting it ? its reversed for a reason note the case......
At the speed Neil works its probably going now......

[WilDun]

Not getting it ? its reversed for a reason note the case......
At the speed Neil works its probably going now......

I know its not the sleeve valve one and I know it's a reversed cylinder layout, but believe me it won't be going with that particular cylinder in the photos!
Fact is, it's only one half of the cylinder pattern being used (for display purposes I guess). - and it does look impressive, I must say!

Will

[husaberg]

I know its not the sleeve valve one and I know it's a reversed cylinder layout, but believe me it won't be going with that particular cylinder in the photos!
Fact is, it's only one half of the cylinder pattern being used (for display purposes I guess). - and it does look impressive, I must say!

Will

right you are but i bet he has done the cylinder or will do soon.

[WilDun]

right you are but i bet he has done the cylinder or will do soon.

Yes, I do believe you wouldn't be far out with that statement, probably was honing out the real one while we were studying the pics!

Maybe I've just been nitpicking :laugh:


Will.

[Flettner]

The old " half a cylinder trick aye " this is the 180cc option.
This was the second cylinder ever cast for the gyro engine, water core slipped, so it was a reject. What else to do but cut it in half.
Don't be looking at the ports, I've been reprimanded by wobbly and have a new layout port under way including prevision for a power valve.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4875_zpse1c25e4d.jpg

[WilDun]

The old " half a cylinder trick aye " it was a reject. What else to do but cut it in half.



Ah well, I guess you could say I was half right! :laugh:

Will.

[WilDun]

FLETTNER,

Do you make your cores with the Co2 hardening process?

Not too familiar with disc valves as yet, so I'm trying to figure out why all those c/sunk screws are there on the side of the case, - is that a removable back wall for the disc chamber?

Will.

[Flettner]

FLETTNER,

Do you make your cores with the Co2 hardening process?

Not too familiar with disc valves as yet, so I'm trying to figure out why all those c/sunk screws are there on the side of the case, - is that a removable back wall for the disc chamber?

Will.

CO2 sand is good for most cores, cheap core boxes, easy to use but can be brittle for intricate cores ( water jackets )
For the more tricky cores I use Shell Core sand,this needs metal core boxes as it sets at 180 degrees C.
If you don't have a CNC to cut these core boxes, just copy cast from the wood / bondi fill core boxes you would have already made.
This core box was copy cast from the original wood core box, then machined to fit together with screws. A little cleaning up on the inside surfaces are usually needed.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_1259_zps7198c454.jpg

The disc valve plate you see here is to cover a cavity behind the valve. This plate seals off to allow cooling water to flow behind to help cool the crank case. Water comes from the pump, behind the valve then up under the exhaust port. out through the head after that.
Disc valve port still needs to be cut, we have attempted a test cut in a scrap peice of aluminium, not right just yet!

[WilDun]

CO2 sand is good for most cores, cheap core boxes, easy to use but can be brittle for intricate cores ( water jackets )
For the more tricky cores I use Shell Core sand,

]

The disc valve plate you see here is to cover a cavity behind the valve. This plate seals off to allow cooling water to flow behind to help cool the crank case.

Thanks, that's all very interesting, - way in the past I have labouriously milled out CI coreboxes and the foundry then cooked up the cores using shell/coresand.

Interesting that the valve needs to be cooled, I seem to have fallen behind in understanding modern day practice!



PS. Guess I missed the bit where you said "to cool the crankcase", (not the valve).

Will.

[WilDun]

Getting back to the title of this thread, and back to the sixties and the "peaky" tiddlers like the twin cylinder fifties ( which more or less had to stay at over 20,000 revs in order to have any power and of course, were a bit difficult to negotiate the hairpins on.

At the IOM TT, I distinctly remember Ralph Bryans (Honda 50 twin) saying that when going up the mountain he had to keep the clutch slipping all the way to the top, constantly changing gears at the same time. - sounds like a nightmare to me! - times have changed now, but can we ever match the max HP of those things?
It was more or less a "pissing" competition to see who could do the most revs and who could have the most cylinders!

PS I'm sure Husa will be able to supply the photos.

BTW, I have dug up (x2 both unused) after market aircooled barrels for the RG 50 I believe - guess they're "competition" types ( don't know enough about port heights etc). Had them for quite a few years now, so what should I do? - just try to sell them? or maybe have a go at building a 'bucket' for someone to start out on? (I'm too old, heavy and infirm nowadays for that stuff. )
I would need a lot of good advice plus lots of tuning and building wisdom though - might be just too much of a challenge for me now! - who might be interested in them?

Will.

[husaberg]

Getting back to the title of this thread, and back to the sixties and the "peaky" tiddlers like the twin cylinder fifties ( which more or less had to stay at over 20,000 revs in order to have any power and of course, were a bit difficult to negotiate the hairpins on.

At the IOM TT, I distinctly remember Ralph Bryans (Honda 50 twin) saying that when going up the mountain he had to keep the clutch slipping all the way to the top, constantly changing gears at the same time. - sounds like a nightmare to me! - times have changed now, but can we ever match the max HP of those things?
It was more or less a "pissing" competition to see who could do the most revs and who could have the most cylinders!

PS I'm sure Husa will be able to supply the photos.

BTW, I have dug up (x2 both unused) after market aircooled barrels for the RG 50 I believe - guess they're "competition" types ( don't know enough about port heights etc). Had them for quite a few years now, so what should I do? - just try to sell them? or maybe have a go at building a 'bucket' for someone to start out on? (I'm too old, heavy and infirm nowadays for that stuff. )
I would need a lot of good advice plus lots of tuning and building wisdom though - might be just too much of a challenge for me now! - who might be interested in them?

Will.


Enough...... enough..... so you are saying even Phil calls it a V4 in your example.... Yam calls it a V4 in your other example .......good enough for me;)
Moving on..........
I hacked this off the Net.1962 RC112 (50cc twin) carbs
[
Worth a look herehttp://velobanjogent.blogspot.co.nz/2008/06/honda-50cc-racersrc112rc113-rc114-rc115.html


CENTER]<img src="http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/14/22/29/41/115-1111.jpg" height="640px"/><img src="http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/14/22/29/41/115-1112.jpg" height="640px"/>[/CENTER]
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_206TETOgLd0/SE8o1A9gioI/AAAAAAAAAX0/FwKxw7joCJs/s1600/Honda+RC115,+twin+50cc+.1965+racer-2+a.jpg
note the front brake.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_206TETOgLd0/SE8o0ZsxlBI/AAAAAAAAAXs/LYVeyUm7vos/s1600/Honda+RC115,+twin+50cc+.1965+racer-1a+.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_206TETOgLd0/SE8qZaieVSI/AAAAAAAAAYE/VKeu5br_3Xg/s1600/Honda+RC115+twin+DOHC+50cc+racer+crank-1a.jpg

It was a while ago.
The 50 twin was pretty much the exact same spec as the 125/5 makes sense when you think about it............

[mr bucketracer]

Getting back to the title of this thread, and back to the sixties and the "peaky" tiddlers like the twin cylinder fifties ( which more or less had to stay at over 20,000 revs in order to have any power and of course, were a bit difficult to negotiate the hairpins on.

At the IOM TT, I distinctly remember Ralph Bryans (Honda 50 twin) saying that when going up the mountain he had to keep the clutch slipping all the way to the top, constantly changing gears at the same time. - sounds like a nightmare to me! - times have changed now, but can we ever match the max HP of those things?
It was more or less a "pissing" competition to see who could do the most revs and who could have the most cylinders!

PS I'm sure Husa will be able to supply the photos.

BTW, I have dug up (x2 both unused) after market aircooled barrels for the RG 50 I believe - guess they're "competition" types ( don't know enough about port heights etc). Had them for quite a few years now, so what should I do? - just try to sell them? or maybe have a go at building a 'bucket' for someone to start out on? (I'm too old, heavy and infirm nowadays for that stuff. )
I would need a lot of good advice plus lots of tuning and building wisdom though - might be just too much of a challenge for me now! - who might be interested in them?

Will.rg50 are water cooled . could they be gt50 ? or rd50 witch are yamaha . are they cast iron or aluminum

[chrisc]

I really love that the old Honda 50s had bicycle brakes. Besides making them look killer, you have to respect the mental cases who raced them like they did!

[dangerous]

It was more or less a "pissing" competition to see who could do the most revs and who could have the most cylinders!crap... works of farking art

[F5 Dave]

I really love that the old Honda 50s had bicycle brakes. Besides making them look killer, you have to respect the mental cases who raced them like they did!
Golly, didn't notice that. Guess they are the ultimate disc brake size wise. But feck that

[husaberg]

Golly, didn't notice that. Guess they are the ultimate disc brake size wise. But feck that

I er wrote it in my original posts "note the brake":laugh:

[WilDun]

rg50 are water cooled . could they be gt50 ? or rd50 witch are yamaha . are they cast iron or aluminum

Yes, they are alloy with what seems to me to be quite thick CI liners (making me think they were reduced bore from an eighty or something), but just a thought.
I think now that you are probably right, ie they are for a GT 50. Been away from bikes for so long that I've really lost track - that's why I keep harping back to the sixties! :laugh:

Will.

[WilDun]

crap... works of farking art

Well you could well be right, that's why they are locked away in glass cases - for show!

.......and I did think they were great as well, but it still took some very talented people to ride them, they gave the average rider no chance to do well, only within reach of those who had huge amounts of money! and the average mechanic/tuner never stood a chance of ever producing anything which would be able to challenge either.
Their phenomonal power was produced by higher revs. and when they were restricted to 1 cylinder and six gears, people had to re think and find more torque instead, so it was actually a good decision to to have this change.
There was only one person who looked capable of taking them on at the time and that was Jan Thiel with his 'Jamathi' but that came in a little later in the sixties when those things were on the way out.
They ( Hondas etc.) are remembered as unrideable little beasts but in saying that, they were very very interesting and they contributed a lot to the development of modern four strokes, as did Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Bridgestone, Tohatsu etc. for two strokes (unfortunately stopped in their tracks by those in high places who knew best).

Will.

[WilDun]

Golly, didn't notice that. Guess they are the ultimate disc brake size wise. But feck that

Yes, but look what they've done for bicycle brakes today! :laugh:

[mr bucketracer]

Yes, they are alloy with what seems to me to be quite thick CI liners (making me think they were reduced bore from an eighty or something), but just a thought.
I think now that you are probably right, ie they are for a GT 50. Been away from bikes for so long that I've really lost track - that's why I keep harping back to the sixties! :laugh:

Will.sound like mb50 honda have they got small bores in them 38mm ?

[WilDun]

sound like mb50 honda have they got small bores in them 38mm ?

No, 99% sure they were aftermarket cylinders for the GT 50 Suzuki. - Bores are 41mm.

If no one wants to buy them I think I'll try porting them (just for fun) and if it all starts to look good then I'll consider actually building an engine, ie. if I can find the bits. I'll be using the great piles of information here.

Who knows where it'll all lead me!- the last time I did any engine modification was around 1969 on a Suzuki T20 (250cc twin)......... before that? BSA Bantam, Ariel Arrow, Itom 50cc, - first one? wartime Royal Enfield 125 (upped top speed from 40mph to almost 50 mph!!). :shit:
Meantime, I'm in the middle of building a furnace and I really need to reorganise my very cramped workshop before I can actually do very much.

Will.

[mr bucketracer]

No, 99% sure they were aftermarket cylinders for the GT 50 Suzuki. - Bores are 41mm.

If no one wants to buy them I think I'll try porting them (just for fun) and if it all starts to look good then I'll consider actually building an engine, ie. if I can find the bits. I'll be using the great piles of information here.

Who knows where it'll all lead me!- the last time I did any engine modification was around 1969 on a Suzuki T20 (250cc twin)......... before that? BSA Bantam, Ariel Arrow, Itom 50cc, - first one? wartime Royal Enfield 125 (upped top speed from 40mph to almost 50 mph!!). :shit:
Meantime, I'm in the middle of building a furnace and I really need to reorganise my very cramped workshop before I can actually do very much.

Will.ok standard gt 50 are all cast iron but like you said aftermarket , how much do you want for them as my bike is a gt50

[WilDun]

ok standard gt 50 are all cast iron but like you said aftermarket , how much do you want for them as my bike is a gt50

OK, will send a PM soon.

[WilDun]

ok standard gt 50 are all cast iron but like you said aftermarket , how much do you want for them as my bike is a gt50

Sent you a PM. - also I did a bit of research and found that when I bought them, they were advertised as:-

[" 2x SUZUKI TS50X BARRELLS, BIGGER PORTS THAN STANDARD , (FASTER THAN STANDARD) COME WITH INSTRUCTIONS AND BIGGER MAIN JET GENUINE SUZUKI PART NUMBER 11210-13630".]

So I'll leave it up to you to decide whether they are right or not. I can give you bolt hole dimensions etc etc if necessary, ( no jets, but I guess that won't matter).

Cheers,
Will.

[mr bucketracer]

Sent you a PM. - also I did a bit of research and found that when I bought them, they were advertised as:-

[" 2x SUZUKI TS50X BARRELLS, BIGGER PORTS THAN STANDARD , (FASTER THAN STANDARD) COME WITH INSTRUCTIONS AND BIGGER MAIN JET GENUINE SUZUKI PART NUMBER 11210-13630".]

So I'll leave it up to you to decide whether they are right or not. I can give you bolt hole dimensions etc etc if necessary, ( no jets, but I guess that won't matter).

Cheers,
Will.sounds good to me , will pm you a address and need your bank details ... cheers scott

[WilDun]

Golly, didn't notice that. Guess they are the ultimate disc brake size wise. But feck that

Ok, now where were we? - about those "bicycle" brakes on the Honda 50 twin, - obviously they wouldn't be running red hot like modern disc brakes, otherwise the front wheel would disintegrate in a pile of burning rubber and molten aluminium! - did they do much braking at all? - couldn't have done! so they must have been very brave lads going into most of the corners at high speeds! Remember, those things could clock around 110mph.

What are those discs/covers on the wheels for anyway, was it just for looks?
Also on that photo of the cranks/pistons, I reckon that's a very interesting wear pattern on the primary drive pinion! :confused:

Thanks for the (expected) photos Husa - very good. :niceone:

Will.

[husaberg]

Wear Pattern thus
http://auto.img.v4.skyrock.net/0386/18710386/pics/528977938.jpg

[WilDun]

Wear Pattern thus
http://auto.img.v4.skyrock.net/0386/18710386/pics/528977938.jpg

Got it now!

[Bert]

Yes, they are alloy with what seems to me to be quite thick CI liners (making me think they were reduced bore from an eighty or something), but just a thought.
I think now that you are probably right, ie they are for a GT 50. Been away from bikes for so long that I've really lost track - that's why I keep harping back to the sixties! :laugh:

Will.

Scotty might be slightly confused the RG50 vs the RG50 gamma (being water cooled).
Air cooled from 77 to the mid 80s. And all the parts interchangeable between GT&TS&RG&ZR and iterations of..
Hard to tell which one would produce the most ponies in stock form.

[WilDun]

Scotty might be slightly confused the RG50 vs the RG50 gamma (being water cooled).
Air cooled from 77 to the mid 80s. And all the parts interchangeable between GT&TS&RG&ZR and iterations of..
Hard to tell which one would produce the most ponies in stock form.

Yes, it's for TS50x and if all the parts are interchangeable then I guess, no problem there.
Anyway, with all these standard barrels and if he's keen on "breathing" on them, I see there is plenty of scope for big mods to be done and I'm sure he'll be happy!

Will.

[Bert]

Yes, it's for TS50x and if all the parts are interchangeable then I guess, no problem there.
Anyway, with all these standard barrels and if he's keen on "breathing" on them, I see there is plenty of scope for big mods to be done and I'm sure he'll be happy!

Will.

I'm sure he will, a pig in sh!t... Last thing we need is more projects.:facepalm:

[Henk]

Give up on all the other projects build more sidecars.

[WilDun]

Give up on all the other projects build more sidecars.

Too many projects is what keeps us all alive, ie until starting projects becomes the main objective of course (all from personal experience), then as the years roll on, the main objective becomes finding the time and a place to dispose of them (to a good home where hopefully someone will actually use them), all in order to keep the family happy! - believe me the family will dispose of them in quick time to the scrapyard or the tip (just like my 400 & 250 Suzuki four stroke twin heads and barrels), - to the bloody scrapyard while I was incapacitated! :mad:

Why sidecars? they don't even lean over, although I have seen a few of you guys leaning them over when you shouldn't have and it wasn't a good look! :nono:

Will.

[Henk]

We managed to lean one over until it was upside down. I probably should have got off at some stage doh, they are way more fun than the bastard child of a motorcycle a wheelbarrow should be.

[WilDun]

We managed to lean one over until it was upside down. I probably should have got off at some stage doh, they are way more fun than the bastard child of a motorcycle a wheelbarrow should be.

Wish i was capable of doing a stunt like that, ah well I've had my fair share of spills so I'll just have to call it a day I guess!
Trouble is I always feel the need to have some sort of bike in the garage even if it never moves - don't feel secure without one! :rolleyes:

Will.

[mr bucketracer]

Wish i was capable of doing a stunt like that, ah well I've had my fair share of spills so I'll just have to call it a day I guess!
Trouble is I always feel the need to have some sort of bike in the garage even if it never moves - don't feel secure without one! :rolleyes:

Will.i just want to know how people can live with out a lath in there shed

[WilDun]

i just want to know how people can live with out a lath in there shed

Yes, i had to dispose of my lathe (and a lot of other machinery) very quickly when I moved house, I was more or less immobile at the time so I sold them for a song to a very lucky guy (on condition that he removed them), nearly made me cry!
Glad to say I've now got another lathe after a protracted battle with the family - I'm now reasonably happy :laugh:

PS. my family are decent caring and sensible people really, but not interested in bikes, machinery etc. - how could that be?

[Mushu]

So I've moved back to Australia and my dad was kind enough to loan me his z650 to ride while I sort out my own transportation, I thought I would do him a favor as he wants to replace the carbs so I thought I would try and identify them. It's a B2 model and they are Mikuni carbs but I'm not exactly sure on the model, VM24 I think but can any of you guys help me ID them for sure?

[Grumph]

So I've moved back to Australia and my dad was kind enough to loan me his z650 to ride while I sort out my own transportation, I thought I would do him a favor as he wants to replace the carbs so I thought I would try and identify them. It's a B2 model and they are Mikuni carbs but I'm not exactly sure on the model, VM24 I think but can any of you guys help me ID them for sure?

Yes, 24's. what does he need to replace them for ? they're a simple carb and rebuild kits are available. I've just narrowed up a set to fit a honda 350 four....if you really want to spend money, put a set of small Keihin CR's on it.

[Mushu]

Yes, 24's. what does he need to replace them for ? they're a simple carb and rebuild kits are available. I've just narrowed up a set to fit a honda 350 four....if you really want to spend money, put a set of small Keihin CR's on it.

I keep telling him can easily be rebuilt but he's adamant that he wants new ones on there, I'll look up the Keihin carbs, I was thinking about seeing if I could use the standard carbs from the Z750, I forget the model number though. I have also read about a few people using the Mikuni SR34 (I think) but I'm wondering if that would require the head being ported to make that worthwhile.

[Grumph]

I keep telling him can easily be rebuilt but he's adamant that he wants new ones on there, I'll look up the Keihin carbs, I was thinking about seeing if I could use the standard carbs from the Z750, I forget the model number though. I have also read about a few people using the Mikuni SR34 (I think) but I'm wondering if that would require the head being ported to make that worthwhile.

The early 750's are 26mm slide type - then they went to CV's. you won't find any outside a wreckers now.

[husaberg]

The early 750's are 26mm slide type - then they went to CV's. you won't find any outside a wreckers now.

Can't remember what the Hand CB650 had but pretty sure some were slide carbs as were the 550.....

[husaberg]

Cagiva Harvested from Here saved as file attachments do they don't disappear when moved.

[husaberg]

Cagiva Harvested from Here saved as file attachments do they don't disappear when moved etc .

[husaberg]

Cagiva Harvested from Here saved as file attachments do they don't disappear when moved. etc etc

[husaberg]

Cagiva Harvested from Here saved as file attachments do they don't disappear when moved. etc etc etc.

[husaberg]

Cagiva Harvested from Here saved as file attachments do they don't disappear when moved. etc etc etc etc.
Note the webber injection on 5th pic

[husaberg]

Cagiva Harvested from Here saved as file attachments do they don't disappear when moved. etc etc etc etc etc.
note the early webber injection

[husaberg]

Cagiva Harvested from Here saved as file attachments do they don't disappear when moved. etc etc etc etc etc etc

[husaberg]

Harvested from the net More TZ750 stuff

[husaberg]

some more...of the TZ700/750
Plus some pics of the MV3 replica and a gif of a V4 yam or similar set up firing and balance with the CRC

[pete376403]

Thanks for posting. I really miss "Cycle" magazine - it had really good writers (Jennings, Cameron, etc) and wasn't afraid to point out when something was bad with the bikes they were testing. And they really did test bikes, to the point of pulling them apart and measuring, rather than just regurgitating the manufacturers advertising.

[F5 Dave]

Jennings really knew how to separate the bull. Bet he was hard to work with but I liked his writing. Same with Cameron. Buy his TDC books

[Grumph]

Jennings really knew how to separate the bull. Bet he was hard to work with but I liked his writing. Same with Cameron. Buy his TDC books

What spoiled cameron for me was when one of the Britten team told me about this guy at daytona they couldn't shake off and who spent all his time standing staring at the bike, just moonstruck...yep, that was Cameron.

[F5 Dave]

I think that's kinda sweet rather than creepy. Here's a guy who's done the hard yards sleeping in vans driving across state to another race meet, machining his own bearing cages for KR750s , building countless chambers, letting his bike shop business fall over just to make the startline for a racer he was helping. For him to have his mind blown by a bike is a compliment. He still writes about it.

still think the v1000 would have been better as a 2 stroke.

[husaberg]

I think that's kinda sweet rather than creepy. Here's a guy who's done the hard yards sleeping in vans driving across state to another race meet, machining his own bearing cages for KR750s , building countless chambers, letting his bike shop business fall over just to make the startline for a racer he was helping. For him to have his mind blown by a bike is a compliment. He still writes about it.

still think the v1000 would have been better as a 2 stroke.

I have posted a lot of Camerons stuff it pretty easy to read and contains some pretty great stuff remember he was a tech inspector as well so has seen it all.
the taking apart of a brand new for sale H2 while his business partner wasn't looking to measure up if the H1r tranny would fit was funny and the fact he ran faster than the official factory H2 entries at Daytona proves he was no mug.

[pete376403]

At one stage the AMA said 350 two stroke single could compete in the 250 class,which was monopolised by Yamahas. Cameron built a bike based on a 350 Kawasaki Bighorn. Cliff Carr rode it. Cycle published an article about it. Because I had a Bighorn at the time I thought it was the greatest thing ever
Wonder what ever happened to that bike?

[Flettner]

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/CCF26032013_00001_zps78262610.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/CCF26032013_00000_zps2ee9f4e6.jpg

[pete376403]

Yep, I believed all that, put down $1169 (which is quite a lot when my weekly pay was about $40). Loved it when it was going, learned a lot about motors when it wasn't . Either the magneto rotor would come off, finally cured. By lapping and loctite, or the rotary disk would break up and go into the cylinder, eating the piston.
Would really like another one now I think I know enough to keep one alive.
Completely off topic, sorry.

[Flettner]

With an injection of modern parts inside they can be quite reliable, and lots of fun.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_8817_zps998209e2.jpg

[Grumph]

When the bighorn was new, Norjo's in chCh though they were pretty good too. Sponsored Paul Doake down here on one. Pretty good rider at the time. Deal lasted just short of a season, paul got tired of the rubber frame and poor suspension compared to what he'd been on before. Made good HP though.

[Flettner]

Paul rides VMX these days, he came over to talk to us about Bighorn's at the last round this year. I was surprised at his knowledge on F9 / F5's. He said the same thing, great power ( if somewhat unreliable ) but BAD handling. He did not want to ride my F9. It's not much fun fielding a standard framed Kawasaki F9, every time you open the tap you are never quite sure where you are going to end up! Throw in a Hot Up kit from the time, 7000 rpm 18hp, 7500rpm 32hp ( apparently 44hp at 9000rpm ) coupled with the vagaries of the handling meant the ride was at best, unpredictable.

[Grumph]

Paul rides VMX these days, he came over to talk to us about Bighorn's at the last round this year. I was surprised at his knowledge on F9 / F5's. He said the same thing, great power ( if somewhat unreliable ) but BAD handling. He did not want to ride my F9. It's not much fun fielding a standard framed Kawasaki F9, every time you open the tap you are never quite sure where you are going to end up! Throw in a Hot Up kit from the time, 7000 rpm 18hp, 7500rpm 32hp ( apparently 44hp at 9000rpm ) coupled with the vagaries of the handling meant the ride was at best, unpredictable.

It made for great spectating though....just as well there were no straight to camera interviews then LOL, Norjo would have gagged him...

haven't seen paul for years, last heard of in OZ. I shared a bike with him on a Haast pass trial - I scared him on seal and he scared me on the dirt bits....

[swarfie]

Paul rides VMX these days, he came over to talk to us about Bighorn's at the last round this year. I was surprised at his knowledge on F9 / F5's. He said the same thing, great power ( if somewhat unreliable ) but BAD handling. He did not want to ride my F9. It's not much fun fielding a standard framed Kawasaki F9, every time you open the tap you are never quite sure where you are going to end up! Throw in a Hot Up kit from the time, 7000 rpm 18hp, 7500rpm 32hp ( apparently 44hp at 9000rpm ) coupled with the vagaries of the handling meant the ride was at best, unpredictable.

Kwaka were very loyal to their suppliers and probably used the same brand of hinge that they installed in their 3 cylinder road bike frames of the same era.:killingme

[ellipsis]

...not sure if this link has been put up already...pretty cool stuff, it's sucked a bit of my time...

http://www.gt-rider.com/thailand-motorcycle-forum/showthread.php/38579-Early-Japanese-Motorcycles

[husaberg]

RC211
Not so much into the MotoGP stuff since it became a four stroke farce.

[husaberg]

RC211
Not so much into the MotoGP stuff since it became a four stroke farce.

And ten characters.

[husaberg]

And ten characters.

so forth....

[husaberg]

Some more Hondas Real stuff this time....RC115 (50 cc twin)

[husaberg]

Some more Hondas Real stuff this time....RC115 (50 cc twin)

As above..........

[husaberg]

As above..........

AS above etc

[husaberg]

AS above etc

Last few.........
PLus a H2R a DKW and of course some other funny looking thing made in NZ

[husaberg]

Aprilai AFI and the RS500 if I can find it.......

[Flettner]

Nice DKW, 250 split single, crankcase supercharged. I think 42HP back then? Very poor fuel milage though. It would be nice to have one of these in the lounge.

[husaberg]

Nice DKW, 250 split single, crankcase supercharged. I think 42HP back then? Very poor fuel milage though. It would be nice to have one of these in the lounge.

$220000 US Nice though, I will stick to the pics..........

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckOw-Cp7wH8

[husaberg]

CR110 pics

[husaberg]

I don't think I posted the story with the guy that has the CR110 CR93 CR72 and CR77 did I? that's the 50, 125, 250, 350 production racers from the 60's.

[husaberg]

I was just reading a article on the Coworth Norton
One thing suddenly struck me.
It seems Ken Duckworth got the belt drive system right first time, maybe the Britten should have used the same system.

[Grumph]

I was just reading a article on the Coworth Norton
One thing suddenly struck me.
It seems Ken Duckworth got the belt drive system right first time, maybe the Britten should have used the same system.

i beg to differ, re the Cossie...When Rob Phyllis rode it at daytona, he persisted in running it at an RPM which sparked an odd frequency wave in the belts - which broke them. From memory, i think they ran out of valves at that meeting.
It certainly wasn't trouble free.
i understand that if there had been more development on the Britten, the cam drive would probably have gone to chain. Less space used and more reliable. closer valve to piston possible too as the belts needed big clearances to accomodate length variations.

[husaberg]

i beg to differ, re the Cossie...When Rob Phyllis rode it at daytona, he persisted in running it at an RPM which sparked an odd frequency wave in the belts - which broke them. From memory, i think they ran out of valves at that meeting.
It certainly wasn't trouble free.
i understand that if there had been more development on the Britten, the cam drive would probably have gone to chain. Less space used and more reliable. closer valve to piston possible too as the belts needed big clearances to accomodate length variations.

I was meaning the single belt and gear reduction to the cams. The cossie had the other issue because they also drove the heavy rear balancer.
The ultimate conventional control is the gear drive, I think given time the Britten would have gone pneumatic though.

I will post a pic
313054

[husaberg]

Honda RC166 Cycle world
Only Half a million US then.
314191314192314193314194314195314196
Remember click on them 3 times

[husaberg]

The other two that didn't fit.
314197314198
Remember click on them 3 times

[husaberg]

Works MZ's 3 of them lucky bugger.
314199314200314201314202314203314204
Remember click on them 3 times

[husaberg]

Yamaha TD1C
Gully ports an all.........

[pete376403]

Husaberg, I'd love to be able to have a few days to look through your library.

[Grumph]

Husaberg, I'd love to be able to have a few days to look through your library.

It'll all soon be on line anyway - if KB has enough storage space...

I just want to go through his old man's sheds with a wheelbarrow. And a strong young bugger to do the lifting....

[Flettner]

It'll all soon be on line anyway - if KB has enough storage space...

I just want to go through his old man's sheds with a wheelbarrow. And a strong young bugger to do the lifting....

TS3 motors, me too.

[husaberg]

TS3 motors, me too.

Haha I forgot about that I was last there I took this on my phone.
It was some sort of powered trailer for Manapori or something.
322744
odd that its upside down though
322745

[Flettner]

Haha I forgot about that I was last there I took this on my phone.
It was some sort of powered trailer for Manapori or something.
322744
odd that its upside down though

Southern hemisphere version;)

[Grumph]

Best material I ever found for drum brake linings was being used on the passenger wagon at manapouri. One of the Ingram bros was working at Don agencies in Dunedin and said, send a set of shoes down and i'll line them. American raybestos stuff which was bright red in colour.
It would stand up to a half hour production race in the front of a kawasaki mach 3 - absolutely nothing else would, and i tried everything on the market in NZ.

[Flettner]

Best material I ever found for drum brake linings was being used on the passenger wagon at manapouri. One of the Ingram bros was working at Don agencies in Dunedin and said, send a set of shoes down and i'll line them. American raybestos stuff which was bright red in colour.
It would stand up to a half hour production race in the front of a kawasaki mach 3 - absolutely nothing else would, and i tried everything on the market in NZ.

I've been looking at a lot of old road race photos that have been posted on face book, lot's of Kawasaki triples early on, 70's to late 80's, lots of cool stuff. If I knew how to post them here I would, but you will find them on my face book.

[husaberg]

I've been looking at a lot of old road race photos that have been posted on face book, lot's of Kawasaki triples early on, 70's to late 80's, lots of cool stuff. If I knew how to post them here I would, but you will find them on my face book.

Have a look Here Neil.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4964

[Flettner]

https://www.facebook.com/NZROADRACER/photos/pcb.1750777381832322/1750776661832394/?type=3


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1144148065626969&set=o.1744865289090198&type=3

https://www.facebook.com/NZROADRACER/photos/a.1746787738897953.1073741829.1744865289090198/1746787838897943/?type=3

Some good photos in there.

[husaberg]

327503327504327505327507327506327508

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDd0kVnnqfg
Almost sounds 2 strokeish
The rider needs to work on the old clutch slipping technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o57JwibqCb8
The rare 2 stroke 125 twin there was an MX version as well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bV0HTqDt1s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeNeptzPxEU
note how much crisper the better tuned the later NSR jetting sounds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdtI72r51sQ

[EssexNick]

Alas, Granby went out of business last year.

[husaberg]

Alas, Granby went out of business last year.

Ham Yams still arround?

[EssexNick]

Not as far as I Know, but that's the other end of the country to me. Found some reference to North East Motorcycles, but don't know if that's a re-brand, a buyout or a totally different shop.
Edit: Just had a search and it looks like they shut some time in the 80's.

[guyhockley]

Definitely a multi-cylinder!

[husaberg]

Definitely a multi-cylinder!

Feek that, imagine changing the needles or the float levels or the mainjets on that multi multi.........
Trying new pipes etc

[F5 Dave]

I think its oiled a plug!
Is it this one?. . . No
Is it this one?. . . No
....

[guyhockley]

In a similar vein....

[husaberg]

Yoshimura GS1000
339460339458339459339461339462339463

[husaberg]

Second lot
339464339465339466

[husaberg]

Kawasaki Z1 from road to race its a shit load of issues.
343238343239343240343241343242343243

[husaberg]

343244343245343246343247343248343249

[husaberg]

343250343251343252343253343254343255

[husaberg]

The TZ750 Miler
Yes those ones.
the H2R Dirt track version cam first this was Yamahas response.
343266343267343268343269343270343271
the Video has been posted previously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k8hJWKIVNs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU1U5dU9NaI