Old multi-cylinder bikes of the 50s to later on. Japanese, British, Euro, etc

[husaberg]

OK i have a few magazines articles that have some well engineered 4 stroke multi's (Plus the odd single) from back when basically the only rule was capacity
IE Real race bikes.

[TZ350]

Thanks for that Husa .... I always enjoy these old mag articals you post.

[husaberg]

More Benelli from the same magazine issue.

[husaberg]

Frits and I (Big Pics are Frits's) posted some pics of the V4 Yam 2 stroke 125 gp bike. (RA31 and RA31A)

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=258589&d=1330253931http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=258590&d=1330253950

Was on the ESE thread

[Kickaha]

There was an RA31 at the Pukekohe classic festival in 2010 owned by Ferry Brouwer

[Subike]

Who owns the Benelli Name now?

They were meant to be very temperamental from what I have heard, but an extremely quick bike in their time

[husaberg]

Who owns the Benelli Name now?

They were meant to be very temperamental from what I have heard, but an extremely quick bike in their time

Don't know,South american deTomasi sold it along with Guzzi to ?

Ok below Not works but more like the RS125 of its day only much rarer.
Honda CR93

http://www.vf750fd.com/Joep_Kortekaas/honda_race_history/cr93-1.jpg
http://www.vf750fd.com/Joep_Kortekaas/honda_race_history/cr93-2.jpg

[husaberg]

OK Honda's first TT winner.
In just a few years their pace of development was startling,
RC145 125cc 196.
http://www.vf750fd.com/Joep_Kortekaas/honda_race_history/rc145-2.jpg
http://www.vf750fd.com/Joep_Kortekaas/honda_race_history/rc145-1.jpg

[pete376403]

Not a genuine oldie but George Beales recreation of the Honda 6. I wish this picture had been released as a large poster, I'd buy a few.
Love the sense of scale provided by the credit card.

[husaberg]

Not a genuine oldie but George Beales recreation of the Honda 6. I wish this picture had been released as a large poster, I'd buy a few.
Love the sense of scale provided by the credit card.

I did a exert from a feature about the Beale repoduction of the RC166 on the ESE thread somewhere.
I thing the stuck in my mind was the metallurgy modern science was unable to reproduce all of it. The lab was amazed at the finish and materials and heat treatment from memory the lubrication was incrediably complex.

Beale has done the Bennellis as well as the obvious Matchless G50's or was it Manx's etc.
From memory he owned a chain of butcheries or similar so was definitely an enthusiast.
Here is some pics of the RC166 From Honda.

<img src="http://world.honda.com/MotoGP/history/RC166/photo/images/02.jpg" width="565px"/><img src="http://world.honda.com/MotoGP/history/RC166/photo/images/18.jpg" width="565px"/>
<img src="http://world.honda.com/MotoGP/history/RC166/photo/images/09.jpg" width="565px"/><img src="http://world.honda.com/MotoGP/history/RC166/photo/images/20.jpg" width="565px"/>
<img src="http://world.honda.com/MotoGP/history/RC166/photo/images/24.jpg" width="565px"/><img src="http://world.honda.com/MotoGP/history/RC166/photo/images/23.jpg" width="565px"/>
<img src="http://world.honda.com/MotoGP/history/RC166/photo/images/19.jpg" width="565px"/><img src="http://world.honda.com/MotoGP/history/RC166/photo/images/07.jpg" width="565px"/>


hear it here
http://world.honda.com/MotoGP/history/RC166/video/05/index.html

[Crasherfromwayback]

Who says Honda's are gay!?

[pete376403]

Beale has done the Bennellis as well as the obvious Matchless G50's or was it Manx's etc.
From memory he owned a chain of butcheries or similar so was definitely an enthusiast.


Pharmacies actually, but close enough. Beale himself described building the Benelli replicas as "blacksmith work" compared to the Hondas

[husaberg]

Right you are should of Googled it. As i found the article i used the exert from on the first search:facepalm:
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/features/122_honda_rc174_six/viewall.html

http://image.motorcyclistonline.com/f/features/9009318+w195/122_0604_05_z_+honda_rc174six+rear_wheel_stand.jpg http://image.motorcyclistonline.com/f/features/9009279+w195/122_0604_01_z_+honda_rc174six+cover_static.jpghttp ://image.motorcyclistonline.com/f/features/9009348+w195/122_0604_04_z_+honda_rc174six+engine_schematic.jpg http://image.motorcyclistonline.com/f/features/9009330+w195/122_0604_08_z_+honda_rc174six+racebike_static.jpgh ttp://image.motorcyclistonline.com/f/features/9009429+w195/122_0604_09_z_+honda_rc174six+racebike_static_engi ne.jpg




http://image.motorcyclistonline.com/f/features/9009375+w195/122_0604_02_z_+honda_rc174six+george_beale_smile.j pg
This retired pharmacist spent six years crafting replicas of Honda's maximum expression from its GP golden era in the '60s, the RC174 (top). Beale built a total of six, sold for almost a half-million dollars apiece. You can bet he wasn't always this cheery when he was chasing down nonexistent bearings for the project.


Read more: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/features/122_honda_rc174_six/viewall.html#ixzz232XoF6ql




When Honda created its fabled six-cylinder racebikes in the 1960s, it was pushing back the frontiers of the technically possible. Honda's attitude was that if its engineers could imagine it, they could build it--and it would win. The machines they created were the two-wheeled equivalent of the Apollo 11 spacecraft and the first manned mission to the moon in 1969. Yet if you're tempted to imagine, from the smug viewpoint of the 21st century, that re-creating one of Honda's Sixes ought to be fairly easy, think again. Even nearly 40 years later, much of what Honda's race shop achieved remains at the cutting edge of what can be done with metal. That one man attempted to reproduce it in a sleepy English village is staggering. Cold fusion might have been easier. That man is George Beale. A retired pharmacist and for many years a sponsor of the cream of U.K.-based riders, Beale is better known for the other race replicas he's already built. Among his last big projects was making 1969 four-cylinder GP Benellis from scratch, as easy as building bicycles compared to this job. So why take on something so mind-numbingly complex as the last Honda Six, the 297cc RC174? .... Then, some years ago, a distinguished visitor dropped by his Leicestershire home. His name was Sato, director of the factory's own museum, Honda Collection Hall. "I was building a Benelli at the time," remembers Beale, "and he must have been quite impressed, because before he left he asked if I'd consider building a Honda Six. I never imagined I'd get permission from Honda. Later I wrote to Mr. Sato saying I'd love to build a Six, and he eplied with permission to undertake the project. "That was the easy bit. In comparison, the Benelli had been a doddle, using many parts from proprietary suppliers which are still fairly readily available today, such as forks, engine plumbing and bearings, all of which can be the devil to reproduce from scratch. But an old friend, Teruhisa `Teri' Murayama, already had an original RC174, and I persuaded him to send what he calls his `pension scheme' to England so I could copy it. This retired pharmacist spent six years crafting replicas of Honda's maximum expression from its GP golden era in the '60s, the RC174 (top). Beale built a total of six, sold for almost a half-million dollars apiece. You can bet he wasn't always this cheery when he was chasing down nonexistent bearings for the project. This retired pharmacist spent six years crafting replicas of Honda's maximum expression fr"Later, I went to Japan to visit Teri and Mr. Sato and discuss the project. Sato agreed to let me borrow the missing parts, but unfortunately no drawings were available since even Honda itself had none. "When Teri's Six arrived, we took the engine out and thought it must be empty because it was so light." Anxiously, Beale stripped it, but everything inside seemed complete. In fact, everything was brand-new. It had never even been started. "This was probably the engine built for Hailwood to race in '68, just before Honda pulled out of Grands Prix," he says. "So it was ideal for us. All the parts were to the very latest spec, and there would be no need to estimate wear to reproduce them." Among other parts acquired were banks of the Six's jewel-like carburetors. Both the 250cc and 297cc sixes were raced at various times with round- and flat-slide carbs, depending on the power characteristics desired for each race. Beale ended up with a set of each. Bit by bit, all the original parts came together. All that remained to be done was to re-create these thousands of pieces to the tiniest tolerances, put them together and make them work like Honda did in '67. Beale soon got a taste of what lay ahead. The first parts made were the oil coolers. If that seems an odd beginning, it was because Honda's own Sixes (the ones it was bringing to its 50th birthday celebration at the '98 TT) had a problem with leaking coolers. When even Honda couldn't get new ones made, Beale was asked if he could help. "I went to several radiator specialists," Beale remembers, "all of whom said they couldn't match the originals, until I came across Anglian Radiators in Cambridge. They specialize in small production runs, and could source the characteristic frilly finning of the Honda parts from Sweden. Unfortunately it was the wrong size, so every one had to be laboriously cut down by hand with scissors." In total, 30 coolers were made, including six for Honda, but the process took nine months. "And this is the first bloody bit," Beale thought, beginning to realize what he'd taken on. "I could have just bought an off-the-shelf cooler which would have done the job, but the point was that the replica had to be exactly right--or as near as it was possible to make it." Yet even that was nothing compared to the engine parts. Most of these were made by JPX, a French company based near Le Mans, France, which specializes in aircraft and high-tech F1 car components. At JPX, the original engine was thoroughly photographed, then carefully stripped, and a detailed assembly handbook created. Every item was measured to the minutest accuracy and X-rayed, and had detailed three-dimensional drawings made--502 in all. Sophisticated hardness testing and metallurgical analysis was conducted on every piece, which revealed some interesting issues. Not a single engine bearing was a standard size, and some of the alloys and surface treatments used were quite unknown to modern science. Soichiro Honda, founder of the company, was also a gifted metallurgist. In other words, apart from a few nuts and bolts, every single one of the engine's hundreds of components would have to be made from scratch. And not a single one of them, according to Julian Charnol, the man responsible for engine assembly, is anything less than extraordinary. Little wonder JPX regards the RC174's Six as "the most difficult engine we have ever seen ... so full of hidden complexity." "When they analyzed the engine," Beale recalls, "the pattern-makers were amazed--really impressed by the advanced techniques Honda must have had to make it, which few other companies could have done." Yet at the time it designed the first Six (the RC164 250), Honda had been racing internationally for just five years. Above all, there was the Six's crankshaft--beautiful, but a bitch to re-create. By '64, Honda had already licked the technology to get the most out of inline-four engines. Adding two additional cylinders might not sound such a big leap forward, yet the implications for engine assembly are huge. The Six's crankshaft is pressed up from 13 components, each no bigger than a domino. Unsupported, it is so flimsy it can be deformed by hand, yet it would have to spin without deflecting at more than 17,000 rpm. Pressing it together with the necessary accuracy--0.01 degree--would require an elaborate set of jigs weighing more than the complete bike; if even one part became slightly misaligned, the entire assembly would be scrap. Ludovic Surcin, designer of the jigs, likened the task to balancing 13 billiard balls on top of each other--and persuading them to stay put. At one stage it was hoped to use a bulletproof modern crank with split con-rods, but there was simply no room inside the Six's tiny crankcases to accommodate the extra bulk. Consequently the replica retains a design exactly like the original's. With almost no flywheel effect to slow it down, one careless blip of the throttle can send the crank from zero revs to more than 20,000, whereupon it would simply break. Other details emerged that showed the remarkable lengths to which the Six's design team had gone to reduce the mass of moving components. JPX was astounded to discover three different types of con-rods in each engine, with progressively larger big-end bearings for the rods nearer the center, where loadings are higher. Even 40 years ago the benefit of such a strategy was well-known, but no one else bothered to take advantage of it. Any other manufacturer would have made six identical rods, each able to cope with the highest possible loading. But Honda's obsessive desire to have no component heavier than it need be caused the engineers to tailor each pair precisely for their function. In the same way, the seven main bearings are also different, ranging from 24mm in diameter at the center to 14mm for the outer pairs. The crankshaft itself runs on carriers bolted to the top crankcase half, which takes all the loads. Thus the bottom half can be made much lighter and flimsier from magnesium alloy.Similarly, the camshafts (each head has four, linked together in pairs) are barrel-shaped, concentrating their mass at the point of greatest flex, the center, and thus saving weight at their ends. But this in turn means the geometry of the valve gear varies from one cylinder to the next, with different cam profiles. The benefit is tiny, the resulting difficulties immense, yet at every turn Honda went to such obsessive lengths seemingly regardless of cost. Other than the crankshaft, JPX's biggest challenge was in replicating the Six's tiny but elaborate castings at its in-house foundry. The cylinder block, for instance, is sand-cast using a three-dimensional jigsaw of no less than 29 interlocking sub-molds (known as cores). Casting the heads requires 23, while even the relatively simple sump needs 15. Even with the very latest computer-controlled technology, machining the major castings was even more complex. JPX's CNC machine--as big as a truck--took several weeks to set up for the job. The machining operation itself took 14 hours and 90 tool heads to machine a single cylinder block. How Honda engineers of the early 1960s did this simply staggers the mind. The engine is riddled with galleries and tiny oilways, unseen by anything but X-ray, with some only 1mm apart. Sometimes two narrow oilways are combined, saving perhaps 0.5mm in width on a single, larger one. Cumulatively this allows the engine to be perhaps 3mm narrower than it might otherwise--yet another minute but worthwhile return on the work involved. The tiny pistons are machined from solid, and run in iron cylinder liners. Tolerances are so fine the liners must be dipped in liquid nitrogen before being pressed into the pre-heated block. To reduce internal friction, no oil control rings are fitted, just paired compression rings. As with a few other highly stressed components, JPX had the wrist pins coated with a space-age diamond-like finish, the hardest surface treatment known to science. At the other extreme, many of the new engine's gaskets were simply cut out using a pair of scissors. Nothing so crude would do for the carburetors, replicas of Honda's round-slide Keihins. The floats are individually modified from those of a current Honda road bike, and even the jets had to be specially machined. Each bank of six cost more than $35,000 to make. The Six is littered with bearings. All but one or two are needle, ball or roller, which offer less drag than plain bearings. At one stage during the project JPX had one man who did nothing but contact bearing manufacturers all over the world trying to source parts which might fit the Six's bespoke demands. After several weeks he had located perhaps one-third of the team's needs. The rest, including bearing cages, had to be laboriously made from scratch. The more you delve into the Honda Six's inner secrets, the more you marvel at the skill and confidence of the men who first built it, almost four decades ago. "Compared to this," Beale sighs, "the Benelli was built by a blacksmith." MC Read more:
When Honda created its fabled six-cylinder racebikes in the 1960s, it was pushing back the frontiers of the technically possible. Honda's attitude was that if its engineers could imagine it, they could build it--and it would win. The machines they created were the two-wheeled equivalent of the Apollo 11 spacecraft and the first manned mission to the moon in 1969.

Y

Read more: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/features/122_honda_rc174_six/viewall.html#ixzz232VWy2ql

[husaberg]

The Name may seem familiar.........

[Kickaha]

You can buy one new if you like http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/08/16/moto-paton-500cc-racer-continuation/

Lino Tonti built his own bike to(Linto), before he went and designed some other Italian shitters

[husaberg]

You can buy one new if you like http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/08/16/moto-paton-500cc-racer-continuation/

Lino Tonti built his own bike to(Linto), before he went and designed some other Italian shitters

Er i was meaning the Patton GP bikes.
<img src="http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/files/Paton_500cc_Engine.jpg" width="300px"/>
But the Aermacchi double ups will be appearing soon..........
<img src="http://vft.org/Sprint/LintoEngineUnder.jpg" width="470px"/>http://vft.org/Sprint/LintoEngineLeft.jpghttp://vft.org/Sprint/LintoEngine.jpg<img src="http://blog.cycleworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/1970-lahfeld-linto-eifel.jpg" width="540px"/>

[Grumph]

But the Aermacchi double ups will be appearing soon..........

Doubt it...there are enough originals still around and being run semi seriously to show that they're badly flawed and anyone doing copies would have to do a heap of very expensive development....and still get beaten by the Patons and MV replicas...

[FJRider]

Who owns the Benelli Name now?



http://www.benelli.com/eng/aziendaGruppo.asp

[husaberg]

Doubt it...there are enough originals still around and being run semi seriously to show that they're badly flawed and anyone doing copies would have to do a heap of very expensive development....and still get beaten by the Patons and MV replicas...

I was meaning a write up rather than a write off....

Posted ages on the ESE thread..

[husaberg]

Its a Single but it beat the fours, for a short while at least.
Outside flywheel yummy.............

[Grumph]

Its a Single but it beat the fours, for a short while at least.
Outside flywheel yummy.............

At one of the early Register meetings at Levels - when we still had a register in the SI...Hugh Anderson came down with an ex works outside flywheel 350 Manx. He unloads proudly and wonders why no one is going into raptures....looks 2 pits over and there's another one!!
Geoff Mardon had found and restored one too. Hugh won the first 350 race from Geoff, but after some tuition at lunchtime on the differences between car and bike lines, Geoff beat Hugh and was satisfied....
Hugh was surprised to put it mildly.

[husaberg]

At one of the early Register meetings at Levels - when we still had a register in the SI...Hugh Anderson came down with an ex works outside flywheel 350 Manx. He unloads proudly and wonders why no one is going into raptures....looks 2 pits over and there's another one!!
Geoff Mardon had found and restored one too. Hugh won the first 350 race from Geoff, but after some tuition at lunchtime on the differences between car and bike lines, Geoff beat Hugh and was satisfied....
Hugh was surprised to put it mildly.

Nice....I have meet Hugh a couple of times and stayed at our house one meeting. Nice guy and really humble (still owes me a clutch lever though)

Wow beating Hugh on equal machinery that's an accomplishment. but everwhere you go, everyone always wants to beat the ex world champ even if it was 30 long years ago that he was a world champ.
There was also one in Aussie as well for a time which could be where Geoff's or Hugh's one went, i guess.
I like the story like the story when Hailwood was reintroduced to his very special 7R. Allegedly immediately turned and walked off in disgust, As it had broken down when he was leading and cost can him a whitewash of the TT races one year. Allan Bramwell i think, had it i his tasty colection.

Added another Outside flywheel Proboscis...........

[Subike]

http://www.benelli.com/eng/aziendaGruppo.asp

Oh bugger FJ ......does than mean that......Qianjiang group....oh...they make......Keeway.....

[FJRider]

Oh bugger FJ ......does than mean that......Qianjiang group....oh...they make......Keeway.....

Benelli are still built in Italy, by Italians ... just owned by the Chinese.

[RDjase]

Who says Honda's are gay!?

Man to Man books does...................

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1991-Honda-RS125R-NF4-RS250R-NF5-Man-Man-Book-RS125-RS250-HRC-RS-125-RS-250-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqJ,!loE-39DRjLcBP1ECT(q(g~~60_12.JPG

[Crasherfromwayback]

Man to Man books does...................

]

Nah. I had a 92 RS250. Was anything but gay!

[RDjase]

Nah. I had a 92 RS250. Was anything but gay!

I think the translation from Jap to English for "Blokes and fast race bikes" didnt work very well:eek5:

[Grumph]

Nice....I have meet Hugh a couple of times and stayed at our house one meeting. Nice guy and really humble (still owes me a clutch lever though)

Wow beating Hugh on equal machinery that's an accomplishment. but everwhere you go, everyone always wants to beat the ex world champ even if it was 30 long years ago that he was a world champ. .

Hugh was just a young'un compared to Geoff - Geoff was 3rd in the World Speedway final in '52 or '53....then did years racing cars including taming the Stanton Corvette and development driving for George Begg's F5000's....then went classic bike racing for fun in his retirement. Still doing restorations. Legend.

And bloody Bramwell broke for parts what had been my Manx...that bike had won 4 NZGP's incl the last at Cust and the 1st at Ruapuna !!! Bastard.

[husaberg]

Not so old but it is a Honda and built by the factory as a race bike sort of there is a guy in the UK who makes a replica look a like chassis for these motors as well.
http://www.d-mengineering.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=71
http://www.replicaframes.co.uk/_/rsrc/1279229656614/home/Imported%20Photos%2000209.JPG?height=300&width=400
http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/gallery/honda/1965-honda-2504-replica-760x570.jpg
http://www.replicaframes.co.uk/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PTG7sdDD1II

This page is well worth a look
http://www.cmsnl.com/classic-honda-gallery/show_gallery.php?galid=106&gl_media1Page=2

development driving for George Begg's F5000's....'
George Begg Bloody hard case, successful but unaffected can't ever remember him not laughing, or smiling

And bloody Bramwell broke for parts what had been my Manx...that bike had won 4 NZGP's incl the last at Cust and the 1st at Ruapuna !!! Bastard.

As i guess as he is, er... still probably dead. Now it might be time to let it go.
He may have felt bad about it. I guess that one died (the Norton)so others could live.
Just like in the Lion King:yes:

[husaberg]

Honda RC148/9

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=268434&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1345282910
http://www.vf750fd.com/Joep_Kortekaas/honda_race_history/rc148-2.jpghttp://www.vf750fd.com/Joep_Kortekaas/honda_race_history/rc148-1.jpghttp://www.vf750fd.com/Joep_Kortekaas/honda_race_history/rc149-1.jpghttp://www.vf750fd.com/Joep_Kortekaas/honda_race_history/rc149-2.jpg
Yes. The 125/5 which is not coincidentally very similar to the 50 twin.


The RC148 is the great surprise of 1965.

It is a five cylinder, in principle two and a half 50 cc twins.

Bore and stroke are 33 x 29 mm for a total capacity of 124 cc.

Drive to the camshafts is by gear train between the third and fourth cylinders. Power is 34 bhp at 20,000 rpm. There are eight speeds in the box, and the engine has wetsump lubrication.

The four exhausts of cylinders 1, 2, 4 and 5 sit in the normal place, left and right of the bike, the exhaust of cylinder 3 sweeps up and around the lefy hand side of the engine, crosses through the frame, to end up under the right leg of the rider.

Dry weight is given as 85 kg.


This was most definitely the pinnacle of Honda's 125 development, and in particular it shows Honda's first attempts at playing with crank layout and firing orders to influence power delivery...

You see, the crankshaft ont the RC-149 was really unique. The left three cylinders had a crank layout with 120-degree spaced throws (just like many three-cylinder engines), but the right two cylinders has their crank throws at 180-degrees!!! Honda was never very forthcoming as to why they did this, but when I asked Irimajiri about it all he did was smile and say "Power delivery and breathing." That was all he would say on the subject, period.

Power was given as 38 HP @ 20,500 RPM, but the engines were known to have turned as much as 24,000, though they didn't make more power up there. The large amount of available over-rev capability was to allow Honda's riders to stay in a lower gear if necessary between corners, and minimize shifting... After all, they were racing against bloody two-strokes!

Yamaha put Phil Read and Bill Ivy up against Honda in 1966, but it didn't matter. Luigi Taveri won the title for Honda - both the manufacturer's and rider's.

This was to be the last time a four-stroke won the 125cc World Championship.

Honda withdrew from the 50cc and 125cc championships in 1967 to concentrate on the 250, 350, and 500 titles. Never again would the 125 class hear the wailing howl of the Honda Fives, and the 125cc class would forever be heard as the yowling sqeaul of two-cycles...

[husaberg]

I seen this today beautiful.1963 RM63 50cc apologies for blowing it up a bit
<img src="http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1103/544673697_f36e6413dc_z.jpg" width="1090px"/>

[RDjase]

I seen this today beautiful.1963 RM63 50cc apologies for blowing it up a bit
<img src="http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1103/544673697_f36e6413dc_z.jpg" width="1090px"/>

Thats cool !

How about 90cc pre AG100 GP bike?

http://cdn.rmdmotors.com/wp-content/themes/rmdmotors/images/image.php?width=600&height=450;&image=http://rmdmotors.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/DSC06136_800x600_c80adb1eedeec5abebaa5b1eaa604807. jpg

http://rmdmotors.com/1974-yamaha-factory-prototype-90cc-road-racer-ht1/

I have a HT1 as the spare shitter bucket, not quite a yamaha factory model tho.............................


Some cool classic race bikes pics on this site

http://www.lump-proof.com/CLASSIC/RACE/96/RACE96.html

[husaberg]

Thats cool !

How about 90cc pre AG100 GP bike?



http://rmdmotors.com/1974-yamaha-factory-prototype-90cc-road-racer-ht1/

I have a HT1 as the spare shitter bucket, not quite a yamaha factory model tho.............................


Some cool classic race bikes pics on this site

http://www.lump-proof.com/CLASSIC/RACE/96/RACE96.html

Great stuff i have a lot of stuff left to scan

[dangerous]

I seen this today beautiful.1963 RM63 50cc apologies for blowing it up a bit

RK66 50cc Grand Prix and you relise its a twin? I have one... Rotary valve setup that Rotax has since employed brilliantly. This 1/9 Protar copies the 1966 model that Hans Georg Anscheidt rode to world champion finishes three years in a row. 16 hp @ 18,000, water-cooled and 170km per hour.

272676

[husaberg]

RK66 50cc Grand Prix and you relise its a twin? I have one... Rotary valve setup that Rotax has since employed brilliantly. This 1/9 Protar copies the 1966 model that Hans Georg Anscheidt rode to world champion finishes three years in a row. 16 hp @ 18,000, water-cooled and 170km per hour.

272676


I was meaning a write up rather than a write off....

Posted ages on the ESE thread..

kind of............beautiful its back a page...

Here is some more stuff from the ESE thread incase you missed it as well.
Hopefull Chrisc may scan the pages sometime??????


Last thing you want to do is encourage an anorak.
Yes a few more left.
Including a very interesting gearbox configuration on a works Kreidler 50cc.
The suzuki 50cc here has an Alloy frame (always wondered why Suzuki's welding was so chunky)
Updraft on the carbs and also note the shape of the crank-wheels.
I have always thought the 60's Suzuki's were functionally pretty.
oh yeah the carbs in thew last 50cc twin nearly bigger than what you are allowed on the Air cooled 125 Rob.
In fairness your power spread is a little wider though:yes:


I saw this in the August 2012 issue of Classic Bikes (http://classicbikebooks.com/catalog/images/cb201208.jpg), page 65 if anyone wants to check it out for a similar read

http://christophercain.cc/b/d/bikes/_MG_4287.jpg

[BMWST?]

whats the advantage(or reason) for the remotley mounted float chambers for teh carbs

[husaberg]

whats the advantage(or reason) for the remotley mounted float chambers for teh carbs

That way they can be mounted on any angle down draft/up draft they can also be mounted with shorter intake in some instances.
They do have problems of course like leaning or enriching when leaned over if mounted conventionally. they used to get around that with twin floats. not a problem with the side sucker mid you.They are also more expensive to make.

[husaberg]

Seen this today
http://www.ozebook.com/compendium/suzi/rs67125.jpg

Suzuki RS67 1967

[dangerous]

Seen this today
cool... 350Hp per liter
Suzuki RS67 1967
February 1967 - August 1967
Engine type: Water-cooled 125 cc square-four 2-stroke.
Bore x Stroke: 35.5 x 31.5 mm
Compression ratio: 8.4
Carburetor: VM24
42 hp / 16,500 rpm (350 bhp per liter), 145 mph.
Transmission: 12 speed

[F5 Dave]

look at the dopey swingarm angle. Surely they were supremely clever engineers but they just didn't care a jot for handling.

[Crasherfromwayback]

look at the dopey swingarm angle. Surely they were supremely clever engineers but they just didn't care a jot for handling.

I wonder if it was didn't care...or were yet to understand?

[chrisc]

Seen this today

The actual bike or just the photo online?

Because I would LOVE to see this in the flesh. I have a real soft spot for early 50cc racers

[dangerous]

look at the dopey swingarm angle. Surely they were supremely clever engineers but they just didn't care a jot for handling.

I wonder if it was didn't care...or were yet to understand?
I vote "yet to understand" my 77MT replica has a similer angle, shit it was 44 years ago. 282797

[Drew]

look at the dopey swingarm angle. Surely they were supremely clever engineers but they just didn't care a jot for handling.


Please elaborate. Swingarm seems to be pointing only slightly above the sprocket centre as far as I can see. With rider sag it'd prolly be dead straight between the three points.

The wheel base would change more, but the further the distance between wheels on something that flimsy would not bother me at all. Would slow the wallow down at least.

[crazy man]

...................................

[husaberg]

The actual bike or just the photo online?

Because I would LOVE to see this in the flesh. I have a real soft spot for early 50cc racers

Just the Photo, i can't see how it is a square 4 though even though that is what the blub said?
The handling i assume was way way down the priority list, at the time, as well as the tires, suspension, ergonomics and economics etc.

[dangerous]

Just the Photo, i can't see how it is a square 4 though even though that is what the blub said? think its a typo, its more a V4 twin crank... but honestly its two twins joined up

282804

[Motu]

That's what a square 4 is - 2 cranks geared together.

[Crasherfromwayback]

That's what a square 4 is - 2 cranks geared together.

Not always. Some v-fours are the same way.

[husaberg]

That's what a square 4 is - 2 cranks geared together.

in a square formation though.............

[Henk]

in a square formation though.............

A zero degree v four then?

[husaberg]

A zero degree v four then?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=282804&d=1368599707&thumb=1? 90?

[Drew]

The angle of the V on a two stroke is not relevant is it? They don't share a crank pin between cylinders, so the V is just for making space.

There wouldn't be a great deal of gain one way or the other. to time the firing strokes oddly with two cranks or one.

[husaberg]

The angle of the V on a two stroke is not relevant is it? They don't share a crank pin between cylinders, so the V is just for making space.

There wouldn't be a great deal of gain one way or the other. to time the firing strokes oddly with two cranks or one.

Yes and no the firing order is also semi dependent on the V angle as well in a single crank setup.
The single vs the twin cranks has it pro's and cons.
From memory Honda ended up at well over 100 (113?)degrees.With a short but wide engine and a balance shaft.
But power productive short straigh intakes and tidy airbox set ups
The twin contrarotating cranks have plus and minuses in high HP applications, as they have no hunting tooth in the primary drive.
Yet can be narrower but are less neat in execution more problematic in packaging potentially heavier and so forth.....


as for gains with firing orders Honda had them when the tires were not so great with the 2 up firing order and finally the big bang.
These advangages were nullified with traction control and with improved tires.
But this is my Fav Narrow angle V set up the Derbi 125
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=251892&d=1322894560

[Yow Ling]

its really a double tandem twin, think 2 x kr250's side by side

[husaberg]

its really a double tandem twin, think 2 x kr250's side by side

What is? A square 4 is?

The Suzuki we are talking is well not really?
Maybe at best its two Tandams side by side and then Twisted apart 90 dergree's
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=282804&d=1368599707

http://www.geocities.jp/fake_dimension_kr_fanatic/04picture/040925-kr20.jpghttp://www.geocities.jp/fake_dimension_kr_fanatic/04picture/040925-kr14.jpg

come on do you have one in the garage, you probably do.........the road engine was a fair bit uglier.

I was thinking it was Stepped but that was the RG500. THe Honda single crank is prettier in My opinion shame it isn't case reed
http://suzuki-rg500.com/LHSafter.jpghttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQx1YQv9byi9Q9KdJMRr8afE9BMBIrmX I2UnwTalZcl6VHBGjM7H62yRG82

[dangerous]

Its not hard people a 'square' is just that 4 pots in a square format ie: the Ariel and RGB only avaible with twin crank, a V is in a vee format either single or twin crank... if a twin is parallel I only know of single crank but if a tandem twin then it has to have 2 cranks... as Yowling says the RS67 is a weird set up more like 2 tandem twins... or is it more two parallel's with two cranks... shit sake give me a V2 and be done with it

[husaberg]

Honda RS500 I will add more when i can be arsed later....
It was a real clever little engine.

[T.W.R]

What is? A square 4 is?

The Suzuki we are talking is well not really?
Maybe at best its two Tandams side by side and then Twisted apart 90 dergree's


Um it is actually a square 4 :yes:

The write-up from when it was produced states:

250cc 4 cylinder
using parallel crankshafts, two diagonally opposed cylinders fire together
produces 52hp @ 12500rpm
22mm bore carbs feeding disc intake valves
multi plate dry clutch

and it was raced in 1964-65 albeit not very successfully with being notoriously difficult to tune & also heavy

Yamaha made a 250 V4 8spd a bit later at the end of 65 revealed it at Monza, produced 60hp. And at the IOM was clocked at 150mph.
It was essentially two of the 125 engines grafted together on a common crank.

[Mushu]

Not quite 1950s but my old man has loaned me his '77 Kawasaki Z650 while I'm in Australia for his wedding. I'm surprised how hard it goes, it even gets through corners quite quickly.
Carbs are a bit dodgy and need to be cleaned and synced and it uses a bit of oil but very much "old school cool"
Gotta ride to Sydney tomorrow (3.5 hours of fun roads cos I'll be going the back way) I'll snap a couple of pics and post them up when I get there.

[husaberg]

Um it is actually a square 4 :yes:

The write-up from when it was produced states:

250cc 4 cylinder
using parallel crankshafts, two diagonally opposed cylinders fire together
produces 52hp @ 12500rpm
22mm bore carbs feeding disc intake valves
multi plate dry clutch

and it was raced in 1964-65 albeit not very successfully with being notoriously difficult to tune & also heavy

Yamaha made a 250 V4 8spd a bit later at the end of 65 revealed it at Monza, produced 60hp. And at the IOM was clocked at 150mph.
It was essentially two of the 125 engines grafted together on a common crank.



Nah look at the pics it is a V formation. it is therefor a V.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=282804&d=1368599707
Same as a YZR500, RGV500 and Cagiva etc the only common 4 cylinder single crank engines were swissauto and Honda plus Patton.
http://www.d-mengineering.co.uk/newshop/displayproduct.php?product_id=2&category_id=14

[T.W.R]

Nah look at the pics it is a V formation. it is therefor a V.


:facepalm: explain the rotary valve intakes then :yawn: if it was a V format how come there's two of them and where's the crank :facepalm:

and lol look and learn

Yamaha 250 V4 1966
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=285977&d=1375948741

[F5 Dave]

Boy this is getting tedious fast.

Lets just agree to disagree. Even the Japs weren't that pedantic.

[avgas]

Yeah that design has always been a problem. Technically it's neither as a V would have an angled block and the pistons would move at the same angle away from each other and if it were a true square it would have 2 cranks with conrods attached meeting a central geared drive (i.e. conrods would be horizontal and parallel).

So V conrods in a square block is neither.

[F5 Dave]

I don't think the design is a problem at all. While they were legal people raced them, other people tried to make them faster, where's the problem? (rivet counters arguing on the internet 40+ years later aside, as indeed they should be).

[avgas]

I don't think the design is a problem at all. While they were legal people raced them, other people tried to make them faster, where's the problem? (rivet counters arguing on the internet 40+ years later aside, as indeed they should be).
Ask Ariel :killingme

[SPman]

1968 Suzuki RP68 50cc triple - 19 hp @ 19,000rpm, 16 speed gearbox - only one made - unfortunately, never raced as they changed the rules.......

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa36/JonL_photo/suzukirp68_zpsf893aff0.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/JonL_photo/media/suzukirp68_zpsf893aff0.jpg.html)

engine
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa36/JonL_photo/Bikes/suzukirp68triple_zps79c7c3e1.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/JonL_photo/media/Bikes/suzukirp68triple_zps79c7c3e1.jpg.html)

cranks
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa36/JonL_photo/Bikes/rp68cranks_zps5746a1aa.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/JonL_photo/media/Bikes/rp68cranks_zps5746a1aa.jpg.html)

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa36/JonL_photo/Bikes/rp68crankshaft_zpsdfc6fcab.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/JonL_photo/media/Bikes/rp68crankshaft_zpsdfc6fcab.jpg.html)

so - is it a V3, or with 3 seperate cranks, a W3?

[F5 Dave]

Its just fukn cool, lets leave it at that. And Ironically the only bike in this thread eligible from a capacity point of view as a bucket. however if it was never raced, does that make it non-competition?

Argh, now you have me doing it Stoppit.

[husaberg]

Its just fukn cool, lets leave it at that. And Ironically the only bike in this thread eligible from a capacity point of view as a bucket. however if it was never raced, does that make it non-competition?

Argh, now you have me doing it Stoppit.

I rarely agree with Dave, but yes lets stop the arguing, who gives a Rats buttocks.

Other than i posted the Rc "what ever" 125/5 somewhere plus i think a few CR93 and probably a CR110 or two but they all are completion bikes.
The 50/3 is cool of course i have a write up on Bazza's Twin he re restored i will post when i can be arsed.

RE the YAM V4 A mad (Dutchy i think Blower) or something has made a reproduction one reasonably recently.

Anyway if i was going to be pedantic the Yam example posted as an example of a V4 above..... er has two cranks.LOL
Oh the irony:innocent:


Yamaha also had some fiendishly complex auto lube systems on the 60's multi GP bikes.
<img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_qTkqdg18azg/S7xpbUwk_CI/AAAAAAAABS8/SaGyKazL_3o/s400/yamaha%20125%20v4.jpg" height="440px"/><img src="http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=258589&d=1330253931" height="440px"/>
<img src="http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=258590&d=1330253950" height="340px"/><img src="http://www.yamaha-classic-racingteam.nl/site2/index.php?page=125cc_ra31a_pub" height="340px"/><img src="http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=281050&d=1365283639" height="340px"/>

Honda's approach on the MB was ingenious in its simplicity.

Yes looking at the engine diagram for the V4 it does look like it had pressure feed big ends but it reved to over 17000......
<img src="http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=258585&d=1330252520" height="440px"/>

I think the wolf/stinger may have pressure feed the big ends as well?
But i are not yet 40 so not sure.
IF you click on the arrow the Classic racer write up is in the original post....

120 or so pages back Frits and I (Big Pics are Frits's) posted some pics of the V4 Yam 2 stroke 125 gp bike. (RA31 and RA31A)

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=258589&d=1330253931http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=258590&d=1330253950



here is it's big brother It is well worth a read, even if i do say so myself.

3rd fastest bike in the speedtrap at 1967 the IOM. carrying 15kg of Lead ballast (The two faster bikes were Ago on a 500cc MV and Hailwood on the 500cc Honda "Camel" not bad for a 250 aye.
plus the speed compared to Spencer's 250.)

[Grumph]

1968 Suzuki RP68 50cc triple - 19 hp @ 19,000rpm, 16 speed gearbox - only one made - unfortunately, never raced as they changed the rules.......

so - is it a V3, or with 3 seperate cranks, a W3?

it's just a bloody triple...and it may not have started an FIM GP but I'm pretty sure Suzuki sent it to the US where Ron Grant raced it - probably as a promotional thing. Source - old Cycle mags quoting Ron riding the 50 triple which went off song when a cloud crossed the sun...

Just to wind up the pedants...a flat twin ala BMW is a 180 degree Vee, and a parallel twin ala Triumph, BSA is a 360 degree Vee...they are of course the extremes of the type.

Carry on...

[husaberg]

it's just a bloody triple...and it may not have started an FIM GP but I'm pretty sure Suzuki sent it to the US where Ron Grant raced it - probably as a promotional thing. Source - old Cycle mags quoting Ron riding the 50 triple which went off song when a cloud crossed the sun...

Just to wind up the pedants...a flat twin ala BMW is a 180 degree Vee, and a parallel twin ala Triumph, BSA is a 360 degree Vee...they are of course the extremes of the type.

Carry on...
or "A square 4 is a Zero degree V4 then"
There is a Write up scanned out of a Classic Racer i think two tempi or ChrisC posted on the ESE thread.


I saw this in the August 2012 issue of Classic Bikes (http://classicbikebooks.com/catalog/images/cb201208.jpg), page 65 if anyone wants to check it out for a similar read

http://christophercain.cc/b/d/bikes/_MG_4287.jpg

OH it was just the twin i think

[dangerous]

Nah look at the pics it is a V formation. it is therefor a V.Ohhh mate, no no no... that like ducatis bevels is a L format a L4 in this case :facepalm:

[Bert]

Yummm

http://page11.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/n119056986


RGB500. Someone please buy it and bring it to NZ...

only 3,130,000 yen (31k NZD)

shocking translation:

I think as not feel missing parts you see on RGB500-Ⅱ type cranking OK.
Radiator water, brake OIL etc. are not included.
It is the person who would like to be able to examine it check the current car is basically a condition delivery no claim in any case.

http://auctions.c.yimg.jp/img299.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/users/8/1/6/1/oshiruko1331-img600x450-1354511191vyac2m57471.jpghttp://auctions.c.yimg.jp/img299.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/users/8/1/6/1/oshiruko1331-img600x450-1354511191bppt0857471.jpghttp://auctions.c.yimg.jp/img299.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/users/8/1/6/1/oshiruko1331-img600x450-1354511192ahdo7957471.jpg



and while I'm at it...
one of my fav youtube clips (outside on the GPR crash test).
Hugh Anderson gets quite a mention.


http://youtu.be/s4PA8VFpUlc

[husaberg]

I Swiped part or all of this
[b].

258303

in 1978 the honda over the counter 125 factory racer made 25 and then later 28 hp and was the for runner of the rs125.

258304

258305
and the honda also had a bridged exhaust port, while teezee has to contend with the limitations of a single exhaust port.

Info scraped of the net about the honda mt125r

- bike was produced and modified by honda rsc (racing service corp., the forerunner to hrc)
- three versions were made mki, mkii, mkiii from 1977-78
- approx 200 imported into us each year.
- bike dry weight 165lbs.
- engine configuration is factory modified version of the 1977 elsinore motocross based engine
- narrow power band with road race porting - "on the pipe" from 9,500 - 13,000rpm
- 6-speed with "ultra close" road race internal gearbox ratios - shifter mounting rearwards
- road race specification porting and factory 34mm carb - 25.5hp @ 12,5000rpm for mki, mkii
- mki had a mechanical activated disk brake from a cb200
- mkii & mkiii had upgraded front hydraulic disk brake
- final mkiii in '78 had additional porting, pipe changes for 28hp peak
- rsc offered a special factory water cooling kits in 1978, including pipe, cylinder., head, radiator, mounts, and special side cover with external water pump.
- water cool kit avoided the heat-induced power loss form running at 13,500 rpm in a long race.
- top speed (with a light rider!) approx 115 mph.
- i have achieved 108mph at daytona with 185lb rider.

As with any 125 cc roadracer, it was best suited for smaller riders. After bump starting the engine a good start required patience and finesse. To characterize the personality of the 125 cc two-stroke look at the rsc factory tachometer. It did not move or display engine rpm until 5,000 rpm and registered up to 14,000 rpm. With the tall gearing needed for top speed performance it would not pull its own weight until the tachometer was showing at least 9,000 rpm. The engine was in its peak powerband or, "on the pipe" from just below 10,000 rpm and went out of the powerband a little past 11,000 (depending on jetting and modifications).

To achieve a good start the rider needed to hold the throttle wide open and begin feathering the clutch as fast as possible while keeping the rpm between 10,000 and 11,000 rpm. If the tachometer dropped below 10,000 rpms the rider needed to pull the clutch in, rev the motor and begin the process again. If the clutch was engaged too quickly the engine could "bog" or even stall while the rest of the starting field rode away. Even with the lightest of riders, the mt125r required slipping the clutch for 40 or more feet. The rewards for a successful launch were full throttle with quick shifts (approximately every 1,000 rpm) up through the six gears. At the end of sixth gear the hard-working 123 cc engine would be pulling along a straight stretch between 110 and 120 mph.

The last hondas made 28 hp and had a 2.5k power band,

[dangerous]

I Swiped part or all of this
cool, nice find... my MT125 replica was built in 77 in the back yard of a chch house, as no one here could aford the real thing this replica was modeled on the MT I think it wears Yamaha cloths, the engine was the CR125 elsanor, it won many a nz nat meetings... now the frame has been butchered and a hot MB100 engine sits on board.

287918 287919

ohh yeah the forks are now GT125 and the swing arm is a choped 125T, so fark all MT left.

[10bikekid]

Hows this for a sound
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/vdDb7t2gCa0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Bert]

Hows this for a sound....

naaa


http://youtu.be/Xuvx15DLDmc

[husaberg]

10 Carrots http://world.honda.com/MotoGP/history/RC166/video/01/index.html

world.honda.com/MotoGP/history/RC166/video/01/index.html

But my Fav is this
http://world.honda.com/MotoGP/history/NSR500/video/04/index.html

[10bikekid]

Nice :clap:
I'm quite fond of this to
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/VZbsMO9l82g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[SPman]

Didn't Echo do a 50cc twin cylinder chainsaw 20 or so years ago.....that would sound good in a bucket.........

[10bikekid]

Speed and sound :woohoo:
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/1weWqDdqBZ0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[dangerous]

Didn't Echo do a 50cc twin cylinder chainsaw 20 or so years ago.....that would sound good in a bucket.........and IIRC... back in the 80's a mate had a couple of rotary powered chain saws, they were old back then.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/teEREL4BMGo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

and your twin, not Echo tho


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/BkiVd188Cqs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[husaberg]

and IIRC... back in the 80's a mate had a couple of rotary powered chain saws, they were old back then.


and your twin, not Echo tho



There is or was a Rotary powered MB100 framed and Gearboxed Bike from NZ on You tube it was on the Kiwirotary site there was a Youtube video i think it was 122cc or similar needs to be 75cc to be CC legal for MNZ though stared and sounded cool.

Anyway some pics of the RS500 Honda one of the cleverestly simple engines ever made....

<img src="http://www.google.co.nz/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://www.motocykl-online.cz/img/galery/motocykly-honda-rs-500-r_2.JPG&sa=X&ei=dIxCUumsFYnilAXW-YHYCA&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNErDT-tXsXdd68zdM8VN24IwVWiKQ" height="640px"/>
<img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8281/7755266018_a7b5004105.jpg" height="405px"/><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8435/7755267680_c11e5fbdf6.jpg" height="405px"/>
<img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7113/7755267134_01a47f2915.jpg" height="405px"/><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8286/7755266728_5d0d02f16e.jpg" height="405px"/>
<img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8436/7755262482_fe0301e826.jpg" height="405px"/><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8448/7755265504_838551d5aa.jpg" height="405px"/>
<img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8434/7755268734_f984ff4c71.jpg" height="405px"/><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8287/7755268182_f05c4f0c95.jpg" height="405px"/>
<img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7246/7755257306_720436a045.jpg" height="405px"/><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8448/7755265504_838551d5aa.jpg" height="405px"/>
<img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7270/7755258942_315520dc0e.jpg" height="405px"/><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8281/7755254216_385aef94df.jpg" height="405px"/>
<img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7131/7755264934_4a8798ebd3.jpg" height="405px"/><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8425/7755264148_635ebe0f0c.jpg" height="405px"/>
<img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8425/7755263316_4d71cecc20.jpg" height="517px"/><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7111/7755253482_4d6e76e4fc.jpg" height="517px"/>
<img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7263/7755260660_e105464e51.jpg" height="405px"/><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8305/7755259844_a67b2ca0b4.jpg" height="405px"/>
<img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7246/7755258098_6e655754a6.jpg" height="405px"/><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8285/7755252566_fbb18559bc.jpg" height="405px"/>
<img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8296/7755255598_54a141486d.jpg" height="405px"/><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8292/7755254806_36149660ec.jpg" height="405px"/>

[dangerous]

There is or was a Rotary powered MB100 framed and Gearboxed Bike from NZ on You tube it was on the Kiwirotary site there was a Youtube video i think it was 122cc or similar needs to be 75cc to be CC legal for MNZ though stared and sounded cool.

Anyway some pics of the RS500 Honda one of the cleverestly simple engines ever made...
this one yeah? and how does the RS 500 differ from the NS500?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/uWsy8WW_OWk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[10bikekid]

What a work of art that RS500 is :shit:

[husaberg]

this one yeah? and how does the RS 500 differ from the NS500?



RS is the production version, but not much difference mainly chassis parts less carbon/mag and porting but not much at all. Only 5hp down according to the blurb.
i posted some detail stuff a couple of pages back.(click on the arrow after Husaberg) then click on the attachments until you see the magnifying glass and click again to supersize them.

Honda RS500 I will add more when i can be arsed later....
It was a real clever little engine.

I have more to post re the Honda 3's.
That first pic with the flash chassis is ubber cool.
Note how it breathes cool air between the rads

[dangerous]

not everyones cupa tea, and not so old but well in the 'cool' class
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/UNFmCnlXhPk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[T.W.R]

Anyway if i was going to be pedantic the Yam example posted as an example of a V4 above..... er has two cranks.LOL
Oh the irony:innocent:


:rolleyes: The irony is that you bagged an engine with the same layout as the suzuki neither of which are true V-fours rather piggy back twins; calling those motors V4 is like calling a suzuki TL cam design a V cam because it uses exactly the same principle, and to really put a spanner in the works a V formation engine has the reciprocating mass turning on a single axis. As for V-twins most of the manufacturers run one crank pin & only a couple having used off-set crank pins; no primary crank driving a secondary crank involved. The funny thing with V-twin formation is that the 1st two predominant designs where car manufacturers. Ducati's L design is for primary balance, 90deg offers perfect balance and that's why both Yamaha & Suzuki tried it with those motors.

There's nothing out there that hasn't been done before, it's just been refined over time

Here's a couple of pics from the 67 year book, it's got about 15pages of exotic engine designs from all the manufacturers
Suzuki 250cc square four
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=285974&d=1375948219

Suzuki 50cc twin
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=285972&d=1375948090

Got pics of DKW's supercharged water-cooled 2smoker too

[husaberg]

:facepalm: explain the rotary valve intakes then :yawn: if it was a V format how come there's two of them and where's the crank :facepalm:

and lol look and learn

Yamaha 250 V4 1966
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=285977&d=1375948741


:rolleyes: The irony is that you bagged an engine with the same layout as the suzuki neither of which are true V-fours rather piggy back twins; calling those motors V4 is like calling a suzuki TL cam design a V cam because it uses exactly the same principle, and to really put a spanner in the works a V formation engine has the reciprocating mass turning on a single axis. As for V-twins most of the manufacturers run one crank pin & only a couple having used off-set crank pins; no primary crank driving a secondary crank involved. The funny thing with V-twin formation is that the 1st two predominant designs where car manufacturers. Ducati's L design is for primary balance, 90deg offers perfect balance and that's why both Yamaha & Suzuki tried it with those motors.

There's nothing out there that hasn't been done before, it's just been refined over time

Here's a couple of pics from the 67 year book, it's got about 15pages of exotic engine designs from all the manufacturers
Suzuki 250cc square four
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=285974&d=1375948219

Suzuki 50cc twin
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=285972&d=1375948090

Got pics of DKW's supercharged water-cooled 2smoker too

No, the irony is you used an example to push your case, but it was a not so clever example.
You said it has to be a Single crank to be a V, then said look this.For it is a true V4 ,and to prove your point that it had to be a single crank to be a V4 .....................posted a pic of a twin crank Yamaha....
post the pics, in the thread this is what the thread is for...... but this is it a V or a square was getting old real fast 2 pages ago.

[T.W.R]

No, the irony is you used an example to push your case, but it was a not so clever example.
You said it has to be a Single crank to be a V, then said look this.For it is a true V4 ,and to prove your point that it had to be a single crank to be a V4 .....................posted a pic of a twin crank Yamaha....
post the pics, in the thread this is what the thread is for...... but this is it a V or a square was getting old real fast 2 pages ago.

Least I don't keep quoting embedded images :doh: or hack shit off the internet :pinch: and actually post threads in the proper sub forums :facepalm:

Don't have to post a pic because I already did with that image, just pushed it the same way you're pushing the Suzuki as a V4 :facepalm:
Though the quote from the article compiled by Phil Vincent in 1967 reads:

"At the end of 1965 Yamaha revealed their new 250cc V4 at Monza, also a disc valved two-stroke, but water-cooled, reputed to give 60 bhp. It returned a top speed of 150mph through the speed trap in the Isle of Man in 1966. It had 8 speeds and ran up to 14,000 rpm.
This engine is virtually two of the successful 125cc twins built over a common crankcase with geared crankshafts


It is hard to handle due to the combined effects of weight and high centre of gravity. Maybe we shall see its full potential this year?"

You don't have to a genius to access information on engine configurations and what each design term means.

:corn:

[avgas]

1968 Suzuki RP68 50cc triple - 19 hp @ 19,000rpm
engine
cranks
so - is it a V3, or with 3 seperate cranks, a W3?
Something else.
Its really 2 engines geared to a single drive shaft. A square 2 + single.
V (or W) implies that the forces on the cranks are at different angles (e.g. 1 crank, 2+ conrods @ angle). This is purely rotational torque on the crank (due to gears) - similar force to rotary engine on crank.
Exception to this rule would be a V engine that covers 360 degrees of the crank at equal spacing, with more than 2 pistons. e.g 4 pistons @ 90 degrees from each other. 8 @ 45 degrees....as the "V" effect is broken creating similar characteristics to balanced inline.

Angle of 180 degrees can't be a V anymore. Flat.

[Grumph]

Something else.
Its really 2 engines geared to a single drive shaft. A square 2 + single.
V (or W) implies that the forces on the cranks are at different angles (e.g. 1 crank, 2+ conrods @ angle). This is purely rotational torque on the crank (due to gears) - similar force to rotary engine on crank.
Exception to this rule would be a V engine that covers 360 degrees of the crank at equal spacing, with more than 2 pistons. e.g 4 pistons @ 90 degrees from each other. 8 @ 45 degrees....as the "V" effect is broken creating similar characteristics to balanced inline.

Angle of 180 degrees can't be a V anymore. Flat.

Your example of a four with cylinders at 90 deg spacing is in fact a radial....not a Vee.

180 degree twin is most definitely a Vee and from construction/design/balance standpoints is considered as such. As already stated it is the extreme case...

[avgas]

Your example of a four with cylinders at 90 deg spacing is in fact a radial....not a Vee.

180 degree twin is most definitely a Vee and from construction/design/balance standpoints is considered as such. As already stated it is the extreme case...
You're good at reading......you clearly missed the whole thing where I said if V's were balanced they are not V anymore....... (hint: "exception to this rule is......"). While most are radial, I have seen ones that aren't (cylinders forwards and backwards on the shaft).

180 twin is not a V as one counteracts the other. Boxer/Flat whatever you want to call it. Is 180 degrees and obtuse or acute angle in your wonderful world? It needs to be one or the other to be a V.

[Yow Ling]

Your example of a four with cylinders at 90 deg spacing is in fact a radial....not a Vee.

180 degree twin is most definitely a Vee and from construction/design/balance standpoints is considered as such. As already stated it is the extreme case...

I thought all the radials were an uneven number of cylinder 5, 7 , 9

[husaberg]

Least I don't keep quoting embedded images :doh: or hack shit off the internet :pinch: and actually post threads in the proper sub forums :facepalm:

Don't have to post a pic because I already did with that image, just pushed it the same way you're pushing the Suzuki as a V4 :facepalm:
Though the quote from the article compiled by Phil Vincent in 1967 reads:

"At the end of 1965 Yamaha revealed their new 250cc V4 at Monza, also a disc valved two-stroke, but water-cooled, reputed to give 60 bhp. It returned a top speed of 150mph through the speed trap in the Isle of Man in 1966. It had 8 speeds and ran up to 14,000 rpm.
This engine is virtually two of the successful 125cc twins built over a common crankcase with geared crankshafts


It is hard to handle due to the combined effects of weight and high centre of gravity. Maybe we shall see its full potential this year?"

You don't have to a genius to access information on engine configurations and what each design term means.

:corn:

Enough...... enough..... so you are saying even Phil calls it a V4 in your example.... Yam calls it a V4 in your other example .......good enough for me;)
Moving on..........
I hacked this off the Net.1962 RC112 (50cc twin) carbs

<img src="http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/14/22/29/41/115-1111.jpg" height="640px"/><img src="http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/14/22/29/41/115-1112.jpg" height="640px"/>

Worth a look herehttp://velobanjogent.blogspot.co.nz/2008/06/honda-50cc-racersrc112rc113-rc114-rc115.html

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_206TETOgLd0/SE8o1A9gioI/AAAAAAAAAX0/FwKxw7joCJs/s1600/Honda+RC115,+twin+50cc+.1965+racer-2+a.jpg
note the front brake.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_206TETOgLd0/SE8o0ZsxlBI/AAAAAAAAAXs/LYVeyUm7vos/s1600/Honda+RC115,+twin+50cc+.1965+racer-1a+.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_206TETOgLd0/SE8qZaieVSI/AAAAAAAAAYE/VKeu5br_3Xg/s1600/Honda+RC115+twin+DOHC+50cc+racer+crank-1a.jpg

[avgas]

I thought all the radials were an uneven number of cylinder 5, 7 , 9
Yep. Radial means no opposing cylinders. But he missed the point that when you have 180 degree angle....its no longer a V. Radial is the exception to the V rule as the "V"s perform full 360 rotation.

[Grumph]

Yep. Radial means no opposing cylinders. But he missed the point that when you have 180 degree angle....its no longer a V.

Interesting you've tried to pull me up only on the 180 degree Vee and ignored the 360 degree Vee or parallel twin....As i have said, and will repeat ad nauseum they are the extremes of the type.

frankly doris i couldn't give a flying...what you think. Agree to disagree and get back to reality please.

[dangerous]

what are we debating here? cos ya all lost me

Radial = pots in a radial format
Vee = pots in a V format
Paralell = pots side by side
Square = pots in a square format
Ell = pots in a L format
Tandom = KR
Transverse = any formate with crank (cranks) laying paralell with the bike
Flat = the pots are on their farking flat

all reguardles off number of cranks :Punk:

[cotswold]

check out the hp per ltr.

[husaberg]

Yamaha Photobomb
i will edit it of course.


<img src="http://www.google.co.nz/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://www.twostrokeshop.com/YZR500_85.jpg&sa=X&ei=cDRGUtevH4SdkgWShoGABQ&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNENCVWra2L0f6XRWR75tA4Dg7ZBmA" height="610px"/><img src="http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6031/6849104564_ed7ea57745.jpg" height="610px"/>
<img src="http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6112/6995207477_6c5f72ec27.jpg" height="730px"/><img src="http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6118/6849022902_dd783cf3ba.jpg" height="730px"/>



<img src="http://www.google.co.nz/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://www.d-mengineering.co.uk/newshop/productimages/display/SS-image-2011-01-23-4d3c1cfd844b1.jpg&sa=X&ei=ljZGUqn8D4zckgWViYGgBQ&ved=0CAkQ8wc4tQI&usg=AFQjCNGNknS8f64y-gbusb7WYOOZHA8Hxg" height="400px"/><img src="http://www.greenhamracing.supanet.com/500%20engine%201.jpg" height="400px"/>
<img src="http://www.greenhamracing.supanet.com/500%20engine%202.jpg" height="370px"/><img src="http://www.google.co.nz/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://www.greenhamracing.supanet.com/500%20engine%201.jpg&sa=X&ei=XDtGUtyPLYSlkwWCuoHoDA&ved=0CAkQ8wc4FQ&usg=AFQjCNHebCpRVZQHHd_Uf4Y3KIfCbo5EWA" height="370px"/>
<img src="http://www.modellismo.net/forum/attachments/statico-reference/73290d1266758378-refs-moto-yamaha-yzr500-ow70-ow70-30.jpg" height="440px"/><img src="http://www.modellismo.net/forum/attachments/statico-reference/73291d1266758378-refs-moto-yamaha-yzr500-ow70-ow70engine1.jpg" height="440px"/>
<img src="http://www.modellismo.net/forum/attachments/statico-reference/73292d1266758378-refs-moto-yamaha-yzr500-ow70-ow70-31.jpg" height="510px"/><img src="http://www.modellismo.net/forum/attachments/statico-reference/73294d1266758502-refs-moto-yamaha-yzr500-ow70-ow70engine3.jpg" height="510px"/>

<img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.1.jpg" height="420px"/><img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.2.jpg" height="420px"/>

<img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.3.jpg" height="420px"/><img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.4.jpg" height="420px"/>
<img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.5.jpg" height="740px"/><img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.6.jpg" height="740px"/>
<img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.7.jpg" height="420px"/><img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.8.jpg" height="420px"/>

<img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.9.jpg" height="745px"/><img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.10.jpg" height="745px"/>
<img src="http://phildystunt.free.fr/wp-content/uploads/yzr500_02_engine.11.jpg" height="420px"/><img src="http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6036/6849005106_8db4298544.jpg" height="420px"/>

<img src="http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b170/jackson500/YZR500ENGINECASE1.jpg" height="420px"/><img src="http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b170/jackson500/YZR500ENGINECASE2.jpg" height="420px"/>


<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OW61_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>

The OW61 was not only the first YZR500 to mount a V4 engine, it was also the first ever by any manufacturer for a two-stroke GP500 machine. The other definitive features of this model were its innovative lateral rear suspension with the shock positioned at a 90-degree angle to the direction of forward motion and a unique frame that eliminated the under-loop, which would become the forerunner of Yamaha's famous Deltabox frame. This was the model that pioneered the two-stroke V4 engine that would eventually become the standard in GP500 racing. After winning the season opener of the '82 GP on the square-four OW60, Roberts switched to a new V4 engine OW61 for round two at Salzburgring. In this, the OW61's debut race, Roberts finished third. Riding the OW61 at round four in Jarama, Roberts beat his personal best lap time by a full second on his way to the win.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OW70N_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OW70 (1983)- Arrival of the Deltabox frame
The 1983 model YZR500 (OW70) was the second-generation V4 powered machine and the first to adopt Yamaha's new aluminium Deltabox frame and 17-inch front wheel. Further maturation of the previous year's OW61 and an increase in inertial mass for the flywheel helped handling stability, while overall competitiveness was also improved with the adoption of a new rear suspension (mid-season change from bell crank type to bottom-link type) and revision of frame rigidity. This year Kenny Roberts on the OW70 and Freddie Spencer on the three-cylinder Honda NS500 staged a head-to-head battle that continued to the final round, were Spencer won the title by a hair's breadth. It had been one of the greatest showdowns in GP history with each rider winning six rounds and three second places and each winning six pole positions. Roberts finished this '83 season a close second while Eddie Lawson also riding the OW70, finished fourth.
<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OW76_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OW76 of 1984
OW76 (1984) - Lawson's first title
The OW76 spec that appeared in 1984 was characterized by the change from the rotary disc valve intake system used up until the OW70 to a crankcase reed valve system. By making effective use of the crankcase reed valve intake that was coming into use at the time with a plastic resin reed, this model achieved smoother power development and better starting character. The system adopted a structure in which the rotary disc valve drive axis positioned on the upper portion of the crankcase was replaced by a reed chamber. At the time, Yamaha was already using a crankcase reed valve system on its Mate utility motorcycle series, but its adoption on the YZR500 brought a whole new image to this technology. In his second year of GP competition, Eddie Lawson had become Yamaha's ace rider, winning the season opener, the South Africa GP, and going on to claim his first title with four wins during this year's series.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OW81_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OW81 (1985-86) - Opposed revolution twin cranks
The OW81 spec used in 1985 and '86 adopted a V4 engine completely redesigned with the aim of making the engine a member contributing to handling stability. On the conventional V-4 engine, both crankshafts were made to revolve in the direction of forward motion. With the OW81, however, the two shafts were spun in opposite directions (rear shaft in the in the direction of forward motion and front shaft in the opposite direction) with the drive force being drawn from the rear shaft. This minimized the gyro moment effect on handling stability, thus contributing to outstanding handling stability. In '85 Lawson rode this machine to second place in the season ranking and Christian Sarron finished third on it as well. The further evolved '86 version featured boosted power output (140PS to 145PS) optimized dimensions and a new seat shape. On this machine Lawson won back the GP title, his second. Meanwhile, in the All Japan Championships, Tadahiko Taira won his third consecutive 500cc title on this machine, which would remain the base model as the YZR500 continued to evolve into the '90s.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OW86_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
Wayne Rainey's 1987 OW86
OW86 (1987)- Yamaha's fourth manufacturers title
To accommodate the new noise regulation went into effect in the GP from the 1987 season, changes were made in the exhaust system, including a lengthening of the tail pipe to reduce the noise level from 110 to 105 decibels. At the same time, the maturation of the model continued with improvements like a revised engine position, increased radiator capacity and improved cooling performance with an expansion of the air duct. The power output was also boosted from over 145PS to over 148PS. This year (1987) the first 500cc class Japan round of the World GP at the Suzuka circuit and Randy Mamola won it in the rain on the OW86. That season Lawson won six rounds and Mamola three to give Yamaha its fourth manufacturers championship.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OW98_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OW98 (1988)- Right-side twin mufflers
On the OW98 that made its appearance in 1988 the V bank was opened from 60 to 70 degrees. This change was made to gain more area for the reed valve itself and more space to increase intake volume than the original V4 block which had been designed for the rotary disc intake system. Also, a new exhaust layout was adopted in which the exhaust pipes from the lower (front) two cylinders were crossed once under the engine and then both brought out on the right rear side. To accommodate this, a left-right asymmetrical rear arm with a large curve on the upper right side was adopted.

This year, Lawson won seven rounds of the GP500 series to claim his third title. Kevin Magee and Wayne Rainey also won one round each on the YZR500 to give Yamaha its third consecutive and fifth overall manufacturers title. In the twelfth round of the series at Donington Park, Rainey won on a YZR500 after adopting a carbon front disc brake for the first time.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWA8_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OWA8 (1989) - Data-recording device introduced
The OWA8 that appeared in 1989 was characterized by the introduction of a full-fledged data recording function that recorded data from sensors about the running conditions of the machine throughout the duration of its run. With its ability to record data about a wide range of factors including engine rpm, bike speed, suspension stroke, steering angle during turns, combustion chamber temperature and detonation, this machine proved to be extremely helpful in providing numerical information that could be shared by the engineers, mechanics, developers and riders to help in determining directions for settings. This year Lawson scored three wins to finish the season in second place, followed by Christian Sarron in third. Meanwhile, in the All Japan Championships, Norihiko Fujiwara grabbed his third consecutive season title on this machine.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWC1_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OWC1 (1990) - Rainey wins world title
The OWC1 spec that Yamaha rolled out in 1990 had improved handling stability due to dimension changes including a head pipe position that was closer to the rider than the conventional machine and a lower caster angle. The power output was also increased to 155PS from 150PS for the previous year's model. On this machine Rainey won a total of seven rounds to claim his first GP title. This contributed to Yamaha's sixth manufactures championship. This OWC1 would also be the base machine that Yamaha would offer to European constructors in 1992 in the form of engine sales and chassis data as a move to stimulate the sport of motorcycle racing and encourage technology sharing. This would lead to Harris Yamaha and ROC Yamaha entering machines based on the OWC1.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWD3_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OWD3 (1991)- The machine Rainey rode to title two
Due in part to the new regulation that required 500s to weigh more than 130 kg, the OWD3 spec introduced in 1991 sought to increase competitiveness with the adoption of an electronic-control suspension (CES). It also adopted a full-fledged adjustable pivot assembly designed to hold the influence of return force from the road surface on the chain tension to a minimum while also enabling setting adjustments to accommodate different course conditions. Rainey won six rounds of the '91 series on this machine to claim his second world title. John Kocinski also won one round to help bring Yamaha its seventh manufacturers title. This OWD3 was also ridden to a series title in the All Japan Championships by Peter Goddard. This gave Yamaha the greatest number of titles of any maker in the 13-year history (1981-1993) of the All Japan 500cc class with eight.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWE0_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OWE0 (1992) - Rainey's third title
The OWE0 that appeared in 1992 boasted a power output of 160PS, up from 155PS the year before. Also, based on the premise that torque character is the product of a combination of combustion torque and inertial torque from the revolution of the crankshaft, a new phased simultaneous combustion interval (the diagonally opposed cylinders fired simultaneously at a 0-degree and 90-degree interval as opposed to the previous 180-degree interval) was adopted from the ninth round of this year's series, the Hungary GP. This improved traction in the low- to mid-speed range and power coming out of the turns. On this machine Rainey won his third title in as many years. Kocinski also scored one win and finished the season in third place.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWF2_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
Rainey's OWF2 of 1993
OWF2 (1993)- Adopting an extruded aluminium frame
In order to accommodate a new engine with boosted power output of 170PS (160PS for the previous year), the OWF2 that Yamaha rolled out in 1993 featured a frame designed for greater rigidity. The aluminium used in main frame was changed from three-section extruded stock that provided much greater rigidity, especially with regards to lateral torsion. Rainey rode this machine from the opening round of the '93 series to round seven, the Dutch GP, scoring wins in the Malaysia GP and the Japan GP and contributing to Yamaha's eighth manufacturers title. From round eight, Rainey rode a ROC Yamaha machine (with the same type of frame as the OWC1) constructed in Europe with Yamaha technological assistance.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWF9_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OWF9 (1994-95) - Forced air box boosts performance
The 1994 model OWF9 was the machine that Luca Cadalora rode throughout that year's GP series to second place for the season with wins at the U.S. GP and the Barcelona GP. While the OWF2 spec of the previous year had featured an extruded aluminium frame, further pursuit of power development and rigidity balance factors led to a return to a panel stock aluminium frame with this model. Based on development efforts to improve the aerodynamic characteristics over preceding models led to a cowl design that shifted the air intake mouth toward the inside. Norick Abe became a full-time competitor on this machine starting from this year's British GP.

A further matured version of the OWF9 was also used in the '95 season, characterized by features like a full-fledged ram-air function for the air box produced at Yamaha's London R&D base, Activa, that increased intake performance.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWJ1_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OWJ1 (1996) - Adoption of a 54mm bore piston
The major new feature of the OWJ1 spec YZR500 introduced in 1996 was the new engine with a 54mm bore. By squaring off the bore x stroke at 54mm x 54mm, compared to the previous 56mm x 50.6mm, this engine succeeded in boosting top speed through a better balance of power and torque character based on total intake/exhaust efficiency rather than simply raising rpm. This model was also characterized by its forged "powder metal" piston with excellent heat resistance qualities and a new frame design that eliminated the seat rail. Riding this machine, Norick Abe shaved an amazing two seconds off the fastest lap time at the Japan GP preliminaries and went on to win the race for his first GP victory. Loris Capirossi also won a round this year on the OWJ1 at the Australian GP.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWH0_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OWH0 (1997) - V bank widened to 75 degrees
On the OWH0 spec introduced in 1997, the "V" bank of the engine was widened from 70 to 75 degrees in order to allow an increased air box capacity. A "T" type exhaust port (conventional three-port to two-port) known for its excellent pick-up characteristics was also tested on this model, along with adoption of a new crank assembly spec and a higher drive shaft position for improved handling stability. On this machine Cadalora mounted the winners podium twice with second place finishes and twice with third place to finished the season ranked sixth, while Abe ranked seventh.
(The OWH0 and OWJ1 were actually developed simultaneously and their eventual years of actual GP use happened to come in reverse of the alphabetical order of their code names.)
<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWK1_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
Abe's 1998 OWK1
OWK1 (1998-99) - Non-leaded arrives
The 1998 YZR500 (OWK1) was a non-leaded gasoline spec in line with the revised GP regulation. The combined effect of improvements including revised compression ratio, new muffler shape, change to a Keihin carburettor (previous models used Mikuni), reduction of crankcase power loss and boosted cooling capacity served to achieve outstanding performance. Also the angle of the engine's V bank was returned to 70 degrees. Despite the non-leaded spec, this machine produced course records on many of the GP courses. Ridden by Jean-Michel Bayle, Norick Abe, Simon Crafar and Regis Laconi, the machine continued to mature through the season, with Crafar winning his first GP race on it at the British GP.

In '99, Max Biaggi and Carlos Checa joined the Yamaha riders and the OWK1 continued to mature, with Biaggi, Abe and Laconi each winning one round this year. On Biaggi's machine, wings were added on the right and left sides of the front cowl in mid-season to improve road contact feeling for the front wheel, but due to the problem of balance with the down-force characteristics during full banking on turns, they were removed again in the latter half of the season.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWK6_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OWK6 (2000)- Yamaha's ninth manufacturers title
The OWK6 model of 2000 was a further evolution of the OWK1 of the previous year and it achieved higher levels of acceleration and top speed performance due to improvements including new cylinder, cylinder head and exhaust pipe specs and revision of several parts of the performance-boosting engine management system. Also review of the dimensions and geometry led to a new cowl shape. With Garry McCoy's three wins, Biaggi's two and Abe's one, this machine brought Yamaha its ninth manufacturers championship after a seven-year hiatus.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWL6_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OWL6 (2001)- Biaggi second in championship
The OWL6 spec of 2001 took the existing model as its base and added revisions relating to driveability including new cylinder, cylinder head and exhaust pipe specs, changes in the performance characteristics of the YPVS system and mapped ignition timing control that contributed to increased acceleration and top speed performance. Revisions in the dimensions also added to the pick-up coming out of the turns. This model also featured long and short type rear arm options to fit the characteristics of the different riders. Biaggi scored three wins this year to place second in the season ranking.

<img src="http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Yamaha/YZR/YZR_OWL9_800p.jpg" height="420px"/>
OWL9 (2002)- The 28th and last generation YZR500
Of all the YZR500 models that had actually competed in GP races since its debut in 1973, the OWL9 that appeared in 2002 represented the 28th and last generation model. The engine was positioned farther forward than that of the OWL6 of the previous year while the centre of gravity was also raised slightly in order to secure the desired front weight distribution. Weight was reduced through full-fledged thinning efforts on the rear arm. In this year's GP regulation that had two-stroke and four-stroke machines competing together, the great competitive potential of the YZR500 was proven once again when Olivier Jacque won the pole position at the German GP on this machine and Abe finished the season ranked sixth.

http://www.mcnews.com.au/features/2003/YZR_History/Yamaha_YZR_History_Page9.htm

[dangerous]

Yamaha Photobomb
i will edit it of course.

and there we have a V4 twin crank :cool:

[mr bucketracer]

love the 50cc four stroke would love to own one but that will never happen! so maybe build something that looks close.. the 2 strokers just don't have the apeal for me

[husaberg]

This is one of the most exquisite bikes ever made ever made. er....i don't like Suzukis either. Note the Aluminium Frame

This vid of another thread is also well worth a watch to.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOJZDObTVIM&sns=em

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/18/goldcoast01.jpg

[dangerous]

Barry Sheeneit was 1999 I was living in Brisbane... took a hoon down to Nerang 12 bike shops in a row.. went into the MV dealers and was standing there ogling over the 1st F4, 74k it was chatting to this guy which was up with the info and very interesting to listen to, introed himself as barry... any way was time to leave as a sales rep came over, I was walking away and herd the rep say "helow Mr Sheene" was half way down the road when it clicked... FUCK, fuck me...

[husaberg]

it was 1999 I was living in Brisbane... took a hoon down to Nerang 12 bike shops in a row.. went into the MV dealers and was standing there ogling over the 1st F4, 74k it was chatting to this guy which was up with the info and very interesting to listen to, introed himself as barry... any way was time to leave as a sales rep came over, I was walking away and herd the rep say "helow Mr Sheene" was half way down the road when it clicked... FUCK, fuck me...

If ya seen the video ya might have been lucky. that you weren't in a mini skirt.
The old man knows Hugh i should see if i can hit him up for some pics........

I know where you mean with the bike shops too its like a strip mall.

[dangerous]

I know where you mean with the bike shops too its like a strip mall.yeah, and they know how to look after ya, pulled up to the same shop on my 97 VFR been up to Canungra and into the Sarabah and two up had a blow out (low profile tyre ment ya could still ride on it be it drifting style) pulled up after hours and they still fitted up a new tyre.

[husaberg]

I have posted these on the ESE thread i thought i had here to but no actually there is a shit load i have not posted here.

[agman]

what are we debating here? cos ya all lost me

Radial = pots in a radial format
Vee = pots in a V format
Paralell = pots side by side
Square = pots in a square format
Ell = pots in a L format
Tandom = KR
Transverse = any formate with crank (cranks) laying paralell with the bike
Flat = the pots are on their farking flat

all reguardles off number of cranks :Punk:

So the engine out of say the 80's bmw k100's, are they flats or L4's?

[dangerous]

So the engine out of say the 80's bmw k100's, are they flats or L4's?
YOU bastard...


well it aint a L4 cos I have never seen a 90* 4 sitting up right (fyi a L is a bevel ducati)
ok fark ya... a k100 I thats I would call a tranverse NON oposed flat 4

or a fucked up krut motor


how did I do people? :headbang:

ps: are you meaning when its upright or on the side stand? cos if on the stand then its a upside down slant triple (k75) dry sump wet head LC shaft driven nazi grandad cafe tourer

[husaberg]

Suzi...............

[husaberg]

Anderson much underrated.....

[agman]

[QUOTE upside down slant triple (k75) dry sump wet head LC shaft driven nazi grandad cafe tourer[/QUOTE]

Haha yea i think thats the one.
Isnt just a normal straight four engine turned 90 degrees?

[husaberg]

Haha yea i think thats the one.
Isnt just a normal straight four engine turned 90 degrees?

Yip but sounds like a sewing machine.
Cobas made one (K75)into a race bike once, it was quite successful in endurance racing. looks like they might have done a 4 as well
http://brickrider.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Pics/i-gs2TPT9/0/M/Cobas-copy-M.jpghttp://www.google.co.nz/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://brickrider.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Pics/i-B6WvDmM/0/M/Cobas-15-copy-M.jpg&sa=X&ei=Om1KUtSDBcmOigeQxoDoBA&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNFYYjaHx-SWc3a3zqVJkNHsU_PE3whttp://www.google.co.nz/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tJJMFs1Esz4/TsRLRdXlvsI/AAAAAAAAAfA/69QyTMZixug/s320/BRAUN-K100Racing2.jpg&sa=X&ei=vGxKUvq9C4iEiAf1noGwDw&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNHwWdD52zP-XPsf9WBosZzxAtBKDA

[agman]

Yip but sounds like a sewing machine.
Cobas made one (K75)into a race bike once, it was quite successful in endurance racing.

My da has a k100 sitting in the shed with suspected buggerd injectors. Is the k75 a triple?

[husaberg]

My da has a k100 sitting in the shed with suspected buggerd injectors. Is the k75 a triple?

Yip pretty much 3/4 of the K100. The K75 was released first from memory.
I have the write up somewhere i think it was called "the flying brick"
They had a lot of black box troubles, but electronic fuel injection was cutting edge then.

[bucketracer]

My da has a k100 sitting in the shed with suspected buggerd injectors. Is the k75 a triple?

Yes the K75 is a tripple, my da has a K100 too, engine frame and bits and bobs, he has been talking about making a real laid back chopper....:lol:

He wants to make something that's all about the engine and minimalist every where else.

[dangerous]

Suzi...............HEY... I got one of those, RK65 cool aye :2thumbsup288125



My da has a k100 sitting in the shed with suspected buggerd injectors. Is the k75 a triple?
yeah the 75 is a triple and thought to be the beter bike of the two, K100 being a four


Isnt just a normal straight four engine turned 90 degrees?well not quite if you refer to the common jap muilty then its turned 90* (transverse) AND laid down

[agman]

Yes the K75 is a tripple, my da has a K100 too, engine frame and bits and bobs, he has been talking about making a real laid back chopper....:lol:

He wants to make something that's all about the engine.

Haha thatd be the beez knees, thats black one in the photos is a smart looking machine.

[husaberg]

A couple more RC115 pics.
<img src="http://www.vf750fd.com/Joep_Kortekaas/honda_race_history/rc115-4.jpg" height="790px"/><img src="http://www.vf750fd.com/Joep_Kortekaas/honda_race_history/rc115-2.jpg" width="780px"/><img src="http://www.vf750fd.com/Joep_Kortekaas/honda_race_history/rc115-3.jpg" width="1200px"/>

[Drew]

YOU bastard...


well it aint a L4 cos I have never seen a 90* 4 sitting up right (fyi a L is a bevel ducati)
ok fark ya... a k100 I thats I would call a tranverse NON oposed flat 4

or a fucked up krut motor


how did I do people? :headbang:

ps: are you meaning when its upright or on the side stand? cos if on the stand then its a upside down slant triple (k75) dry sump wet head LC shaft driven nazi grandad cafe tourer
It's an inline four you over complicating prick!

Yamaha and Toyota use modern DOHC slant motors. Slugs leaning at up to 35°. They're still an inline four, what's the difference.

Transverse inline four at best, since the crank is 'north/south' I suppose.

[avgas]

So the engine out of say the 80's bmw k100's, are they flats or L4's?
I never liked the term "Flat" as it doesn't explain anything. An R1 pulling a mono is a "Flat 4".

Boxer or Opposing at least tells you what the pistons and the crank are doing.

You don't hear rotaries being called "Spinning Discs" or a pit bike being called a Flat 1.

Raises the question - if you turn a V twin upside down - what is it called? (remember L twins?)

[agman]

I never liked the term "Flat" as it doesn't explain anything. An R1 pulling a mono is a "Flat 4".

Boxer or Opposing at least tells you what the pistons and the crank are doing.

You don't hear rotaries being called "Spinning Discs" or a pit bike being called a Flat 1.

Raises the question - if you turn a V twin upside down - what is it called? (remember L twins?)

Ermm an A twin? Or just a bloody pointless idea.

[Drew]

Or just a bloody pointless idea.Ohhhh, I don't know. Be a good way to pump lots of oil out of an exhaust pipe...If you had a need to do something like that.

[agman]

Ohhhh, I don't know. Be a good way to pump lots of oil out of an exhaust pipe...If you had a need to do something like that.

Harleys do it anyways... xD

[avgas]

Ohhhh, I don't know. Be a good way to pump lots of oil out of an exhaust pipe...If you had a need to do something like that.
What a fantastic idea!
I was so sick of the oil leaking out of the crankcase. That way I could get home - shove a bung in the exhaust and all the oil will be waiting for me when I start the bike up again.

Plus who needs sump plugs when a spark plug is the only thing holding the black stuff in?

[agman]

What do you all it when the engines runs across the chassis, like a guzzi?

I love guzzis.

[Drew]

What do you all it when the engines runs across the chassis, like a guzzi?

I love guzzis.Transverse is the term you're looking for.

[agman]

So a r1 has a transversely mounted L4?

So what would you call it on say a harley?

[Drew]

So a r1 has a transversely mounted L4?

So what would you call it on say a harley?No no. An R1 has an inline 4. IL4. A Harley has a V-twin. A guzzi is also V-twin, but transverse because the crank runs perpendicular to the wheels.

[dangerous]

shit, you lot have screwed this thread LOL

It's an inline four you over complicating prick!
Yamaha and Toyota use modern DOHC slant motors. Slugs leaning at up to 35°. They're still an inline four, what's the difference.
Transverse inline four at best, since the crank is 'north/south' I suppose.
SIR complicating prick to you wigga and the differance is they are a SLANT IL4, just like the CF230 or Valient 2.7



You don't hear rotaries being called "Spinning Discs" or a pit bike being called a Flat 1.

Raises the question - if you turn a V twin upside down - what is it called? (remember L twins?)
Re the pit bike, if like the Guzzi Falcone or aremachi the YES flat single
Re a upside V2... it be a 3rd in a half radial... a L is a L



I never liked the term "Flat" as it doesn't explain anything. An R1 pulling a mono is a "Flat 4". gezzzzus, pulling a mono it would be virtacal... if a R1 did a stoppie it would be a flat 4




So a r1 has a transversely mounted L4?
So what would you call it on say a harley?fuck sake... IL4 thats INLINE 4 L4 is something different, and a bloody harley is a V2

[T.W.R]

It's an inline four you over complicating prick!

Yamaha and Toyota use modern DOHC slant motors. Slugs leaning at up to 35°. They're still an inline four, what's the difference.

Transverse inline four at best, since the crank is 'north/south' I suppose.

:laugh: Yamaha created the design for Toyota's engines

[Drew]

:laugh: Yamaha created the design for Toyota's enginesI know. Hense I mentioned Toyota.

[T.W.R]

Engine configurations

Categorisation by piston motion

Engine types include:

Single-cylinder engines
Inline engine designs:
Straight engine, with all of the cylinders placed in a single row
U engine, two separate straight engines with crankshafts linked by a central gear.
The square four is a U engine where the two straight engines have two cylinders each.
V engine, with two banks of cylinders at an angle, most commonly 60 or 90 degrees.
Flat engine, two banks of cylinders directly opposite each other on either side of the crankshaft.
H engine, two crankshafts.
W engine. Combination of V and straight, giving 3 banks, or two V's intertwined giving 4 banks.
Opposed piston engine, with multiple crankshafts, an example being:
Delta engines, with three banks of cylinders and three crankshafts
X engine.
Radial designs, including most:
Rotary engine designs. Mostly seen on pre-WWII aircraft.
Pistonless rotary engines, notably:
Wankel engine.

The standard names for some configurations are historic, arbitrary, or both, with some overlap. For example, the cylinder banks of a 180° V engine do not in any way form a V, but it is regarded as a V engine because of its crankshaft and big end configuration, which result in performance characteristics similar to a V engine. But it is also considered a flat engine because of its shape. On the other hand, some engines which have none of the typical V engine crankshaft design features and consequent performance characteristics are also regarded as V engines, purely because of their shape. Similarly, the Volkswagen Group VR6 engine is a hybrid of the V engine and the straight engine, and can not be definitively labeled as either.

[dangerous]

hey motor nerds... who can name the bike that has a oposed flat non transverse twin? :msn-wink:

[T.W.R]

hey motor nerds... who can name the bike that has a oposed flat non transverse twin? :msn-wink:

there's plenty but an easy one is Douglas

[husaberg]

hey motor nerds... who can name the bike that has a oposed flat non transverse twin? :msn-wink:

haha he got ya.
Name the V4 that everyone who looks at it thinks is a Square four........

[dangerous]

there's plenty but an easy one is Douglas
HA... yeah man, and Harley... cant say I know of any others.288143

[T.W.R]

HA... yeah man, and Harley... cant say I know of any others.

FKS made a 2stroke
Helios made one with a BMW engine
Hochland
Lorenz
Maxima

And a few others

Name a flat Traverse 4 :corn:

[Drew]

FKS made a 2stroke
Helios made one with a BMW engine
Hochland
Lorenz
Maxima

And a few others

Name a flat Traverse 4 :corn:GL1500 Honda. Too easy:msn-wink:

[dangerous]

GL1500 Honda. Too easy:msn-wink:

FAIL thats a 6... hahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Drew]

FAIL thats a 6... hahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaOh yeah. Fail and a half.

[Henk]

GL1000 honda then.

[Drew]

GL1000 honda then.I'm so pissed off I wrote down the wrong CC. I only even knew about it because of the "Deathwing" thread in the bike mod section on here.

[T.W.R]

GL1500 Honda. Too easy:msn-wink:

Maybe the 1st incarnation of the GL1500 as it was meant to be before Honda decided it was too complexed for the public and chopped two pots off & released the GL1000; took them 14yrs to graft the two missing pots back into place.

But I was thinking more of the cylinders one above the other per side, not one behind the other. :msn-wink:

[Drew]

Maybe the 1st incarnation of the GL1500 as it was meant to be before Honda decided it was too complexed for the public and chopped two pots off & released the GL1000.

But I was thinking more of the cylinders one above the other per side, not one behind the other :msn-wink:The 1500 would make a fantastic car motor I reckon.

Anyhoo. I think I can picture that configuration, but fuck knows what the bike was.

[T.W.R]

The 1500 would make a fantastic car motor I reckon.

Anyhoo. I think I can picture that configuration, but fuck knows what the bike was.

It'd be better than a Subaru :laugh:

1938 Brough Superior 'Dream'

http://bmwdean.com/dream2.jpg

http://bmwdean.com/brough-dream.jpg

[dangerous]

1938 Brough Superior 'Dream'that there would have to be a twin crank engine, never seen it and thats farking cool... name who built a single crank transverse V4

[Woodman]

that there would have to be a twin crank engine, never seen it and thats farking cool name a transverse V4

Or a vertical crankshaft.

[dangerous]

Or a vertical crankshaft.na, that would take a bit of engineering... note the exploded view above the photo.

[Woodman]

na, that would take a bit of engineering... note the exploded view above the photo.

yeah, missed the exploded view, but theoretically possible.

[Henk]

that there would have to be a twin crank engine, never seen it and thats farking cool... name who built a single crank transverse V4

Honda st1100?

[husaberg]

hey motor nerds... who can name the bike that has a oposed flat non transverse twin? :msn-wink:

What about the longitudinal flat opposed four then.
I can think of two.
<img src="http://www.google.co.nz/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://stblogs.motorcyclistonline.com/files/2012/08/boxer-four1-623x459.jpg&sa=X&ei=ustLUtitKMXQlAWgoICgAg&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNHF4agMETpuMXFdDqOCQgYl-c4aDA" height="400px"/><img src="http://www.google.co.nz/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YyhYItqiGSE/Tkm1D-6jERI/AAAAAAAAO-o/wcls1m2J5aQ/s320/boxer.engine2.jpg&sa=X&ei=YsxLUqPLLcKSkwWipYCQCA&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNHw9unpdVpLV1r36GbMeqmIHnPFoQ" height="400px"/>
MV500 boxer

<img src="http://www.google.co.nz/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://www.ozebook.com/top100/konig2.jpg&sa=X&ei=ssxLUuSHCYjdkAXpvICADw&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNELuDBfOBvvM9YlkKrhKXzguvA1fw" height="340px"/><img src="http://www.google.co.nz/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://www.motohistory.net/images/Konig.jpg&sa=X&ei=js1LUvWiKYLBlQXGyICQBw&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNH128RbqOb2eE-9x0O-Aid0XEXzKw" height="340px"/>
Konig 500

[dangerous]

Honda st1100?
yeah true too... but I was thinking of the moto guzzi... and morbedellie did the transverse 8
288147 288148

[husaberg]

yeah true too... but I was thinking of the moto guzzi... and morbedellie did the transverse 8
288147 288148

Laverda did a 6 that was essentially a maserati engine,
http://www.google.co.nz/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://improvelife.info/links/bikes/images/LaverdaV6_06.jpg&sa=X&ei=xtBLUsbeOMrtkAXgrYH4Cw&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNHjEg6LxWmqd78dcmqtUCyXt2r96g

the Guzzi V8 wasn't transverse though.:facepalm:
But it was ubber cool.
http://www.google.co.nz/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QNmGrT2fJt4/T1i4hojAwEI/AAAAAAAATE4/TfKJg9DdADg/s400/Moto%2BGuzzi%2BV8%2B500%2B1957%2B20.jpg&sa=X&ei=NtNLUt7UCcWpkwXe04CYDA&ved=0CAkQ8wc4HA&usg=AFQjCNEkZB1F_HIDE2p7K7S0WhlwnM80HQ


What about this one
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lVCC9aDALT4/TE1e-TR8ywI/AAAAAAAALyI/GRMYdrhAXvo/s400/IMG.jpg
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=271739&d=1350297984

[10bikekid]

Crazy bikes :crazy:

[T.W.R]

Laverda did a 6 that was essentially a maserati engine,


Sig Botchi would love to have heard that :lol:

[T.W.R]

and morbedellie did the transverse 8
288148

And Galbusera did a 500cc 2stroke V8 about 50yrs earlier

http://www.ozebook.com/az/galbusera.jpg

How about this wee beaut: Imme R100 ..... Have a good look at the whole bike :yes:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7SczI5autzw/SmcVFOua2RI/AAAAAAAADrY/-oM8fCvQWCg/s800/imme-010.jpg

[husaberg]

Sig Botchi would love to have heard that :lol:

You can though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9EG3IiLMb4

[T.W.R]

You can though.


:lol: Sig Botchi is the man who designed the V Sei and I've heard a Laverda barking in anger plenty of times :first:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=176516&d=1245623979

[husaberg]

Sig Botchi would love to have heard that :lol:

:lol: Sig Botchi is the man who designed the V Sei and I've heard a Laverda barking in anger plenty of times :first:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=176516&d=1245623979
I assumed Botchi was a Maseriti guy......

The video i posted was a V6 lav you posted a pic of a three they sound a little different i would guess?


What to do then… It so happened that Massimo Laverda was introduced to Giulio Alfieri by Laverda engineer Luciano Zen. Alfieri was an automotive engineer who was best known for his work with Maserati, where he had been employed from 1953 to 1973. During his tenure under the trident he had deigned some of the most iconic Italian machines of the four-wheeled variety – he worked on the 250F Grand Prix racer, the famed “Birdcage”, and the 90-degree V6 shared between the Maserati Merak and Citroën SM. Alfieri proposed just such an engine for Laverda, a miniaturized 90-degree V6 with liquid cooling and dual overhead cam heads. There was also talk of the possibility of developing a V4 or V-twin with the same architecture. Even in the 1970s the writing was on the wall for air-cooled two-valve engines, with increasingly stringent emissions laws looming on the horizon. Laverda needed to start working on more modern liquid-cooled architecture that would allow them to move forward. They would begin by building a racing V6, with the intention of further developing and refining the platform to eventually release a detuned street version. Massimo was quite keen on the idea and work began in 1975, with Alfieri and designer Luciano Zen devoting one day a week to working on the new engine.

According to Alfieri’s plan they would begin by building a 1000cc V6 aimed at the sport touring market, with the possibility of a series of modular engines based off the same architecture. The engine is mounted longitudinally, with the gearbox bolted at the rear driving a shaft to the wheel. Viewed on its own, it looks like a tiny automotive powertrain lifted out of a rear-drive car

The V6 was developed by Laverda during the directorship of Massimo Laverda in 1977. Designed by ex-Maserati engineer Giulio Alfieri, the Breganze's engine had many similarities to V6 engines he had built working for Citroen and Maserati.
From memory the engine was even made at Maserati. its weakness allegedly was the drive shaft arrangement which was a bit ahead of its time and not quite developed.
Don't know about the 180 cranks but i would say the 120's Howl rather than bark.....
Happy to be wrong though...... i have a write up here re the v6 i will post it when i trip over it.

[T.W.R]

I assumed Botchi was a Maseriti guy


From memory the engine was even made at Maseteriti. its weakness allegedly was the drive shaft arrangement which was a bit ahead of its time and not quite developed.
Don't know about the 180 cranks but i would say the 120's Howl rather than bark.....
Happy to be wrong though...... i have a write up here re the v6 i will post it when i trip over it.

In the attachment the first & second paragraphs of the second column mention Botchi and along with the bottom of the 1st column explain how the 120 Jota came to be.

And 180's Bark when set up ;) makes a 120 decidedly civilised by comparison :bleh:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=51277&d=1169115688

[husaberg]

In the attachment the first & second paragraphs of the second column mention Botchi and along with the bottom of the 1st column explain how the 120 Jota came to be.

And 180's Bark when set up ;) makes a 120 decidedly civilised by comparison :bleh:

Er i win then. Cause he isn't mentioned anywhere else as the designer.
But, if i was your guy, i would be pissed that my guy seems to take all the credit for his work:rolleyes:
I will say this though, who ever decided to rephase the crank to 120 degrees was a legend........
Imagine the effort to replicate the 1960's Triumph trident and rocket three and nearly every other 3 cylinder ever made's crank-phasing....


The SM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_SM) was sold with a small, lightweight engine in various forms, designed from scratch by Giulio Alfieri but capable of being assembled on existing V8 tooling. Because of this, the engine sported an unusual 90° angle between cylinder banks — a trait shared with the later PRV V6. It was a very compact and innovative design that allowed the use of just one pattern for the cylinder heads and an intermediate shaft extended out to drive the auxiliaries.




http://www.laverdacorse.it/bikes/1000v6.html
The engine was designed by Giulio Alfieri who had recently resigned his post at Maserati and the bike’s 90 degree motor has many features in common with the advanced V6 engines found in the Citroen Maserati and the Maserati Merak. Alfieri was an acknowledged expert on combustion chamber design and the V6 test bed sessions yielded an effortless 160bhp. This was a very impressive figure in the 1970s for a naturally aspirated 1000cc four stroke and in fact the engine was subsequently detuned for testing purposes.



Another flash (http://autos.ca.msn.com/specials/motorcycle-gallery.aspx?cp-documentid=24232100&page=8) in the pan racer with impact beyond its success, the Laverda remains the only longitudinal V6 ever purpose built for a two-wheeler. Designed by former Maserati engineer, Giulio Alfieri, for endurance racing, the 996-cc V6's only official outing was the 1978 Bol d'Or 24 Hour event where it hit an astounding 283 km/h (30 km/h faster than the best works Honda RCB1000 racers) before retiring with a broken U-joint. Rule changes in 1979, limited racing machines to four cylinders, ending its career. Former Laverda owner, Piero Laverda, still occasionally takes the V6 for a spin at historic racing events.


Chris,
An interesting choice (http://www.laverdaforum.com/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=87840.0) of engine designed of course by Ing Giulio Alfieri who , by strange happenstance , also designed the Laverda V6! Did you know that or is it just a weird coincidence? He fell out with Citroen who had recently taken over Maserati and whilst on gardening leave was drafted in by his old chum Massimo Laverda to work on the V6 project.
Bob

http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=CNsRN9L5BYsC&pg=RA4-PA136&lpg=RA4-PA136&dq=Giulio+Alfieri+laverda&source=bl&ots=P9ETFMr1u3&sig=tQxeeoTWg-GxeCZDFDv8yOx2qbg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Pz5MUrX1Ecv_lAX0yoHgCA&ved=0CF8Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Giulio%20Alfieri%20laverda&f=false

"The leader of the (http://thebenelli.blogspot.co.nz/2008/12/twisted-darwinism-survival-of-yes-men.html) [Laverda V6] design team, working in concert with long-time Laverda designer Luciano Zen and Massimo Laverda, himself no mean engineer, was one of the most respected names in automotive engineering, Ing Giulio Alfieri. Alfieri had worked for both Ferrari and Maserati in the past, designing the whole post-war series of Maserati racing and sports cars before the company was bought by Alessandro de Tomaso, with whom he found it impossible to get on.

"The result was that Alfieri left the firm his name had become synonymous with, and for a handful of years worked as a freelance engineering consultant before taking up his present position as managing director of the Lamborghini car company.

"I consider him [Alfieri] to be one of the three leading experts in the world on high-performance internal combustion engines,' says Massimo.

-- Classic Racer, Autumn 1983
I do still have the Classic racer article i could look for, if you are still not convinced

[Bender]

Husaberg - thanks for putting these articles up, they're very interesting.

:niceone:

[husaberg]

Husaberg - thanks for putting these articles up, they're very interesting.:niceone:

Thanks I often wonder if anyone does read them that's why i post the odd girl pic to see.
I have plenty more including the Lav V3 which i had posted before i think on ESE. Its mentioned but no pic in the Walker Italian book.
Intersting that i did fluff up the engine castings though as i forgot that Laverda's foundry cast the Masterati engines plus stuff for Guzzi etc

[husaberg]

Lav V3 plus the bike that could and should have saved them. Plus ADM if it fits.

* remember to click on the attachments a few times to make them easy and clear to read:)

[T.W.R]

Aww Husaberg..disappointed, got notification of a quote then see you've deleted it :facepalm:

follow the link as it's a more concise look at the V Sei or in fact the 3 of them and how Alfieri was brought in on a consultative basis

http://www.breganzane.com/history/v6.php

Seeing how you zeroed in on a word of Designed rather than Crafted don't insult the bike by calling it essentially a Maserati because of design influences, that puts it in the same ball park as calling an early Katana a BMW or every bevel Ducati of the 70s & early 80s a Seeley or even calling a Darmah an Italjet.
We all know Hans Muth the BMW designer was contracted to design the original Katana
Colin Seeley was directly responsible for the frames of dukes up to the last MHRs.
And Leopoldo Tartarini of Italjet had done design styling for ducati and was given the sole styling design brief for the Darmah
Or why not call the Benelli TNT1150 the modern Laverda triple because that's basically what it is :yes:

[husaberg]

Aww Husaberg..disappointed, got notification of a quote then see you've deleted it :facepalm:

follow the link as it's a more concise look at the V Sei or in fact the 3 of them and how Alfieri was brought in on a consultative basis

http://www.breganzane.com/history/v6.php

Seeing how you zeroed in on a word of Designed rather than Crafted don't insult the bike by calling it essentially a Maserati because of design influences, that puts it in the same ball park as calling an early Katana a BMW or every bevel Ducati of the 70s & early 80s a Seeley or even calling a Darmah an Italjet.
We all know Hans Muth the BMW designer was contracted to design the original Katana
Colin Seeley was directly responsible for the frames of dukes up to the last MHRs.
And Leopoldo Tartarini of Italjet had done design styling for ducati and was given the sole styling design brief for the Darmah
Or why not call the Benelli TNT1150 the modern Laverda triple because that's basically what it is :yes:


Truth is just I get sick of beating up on you............
Its hardly sport when it is so easy.
You are wrong ....... is that concise enough for you.
Look at you original quote.......
Actually look at all your posts on the thread, still waiting for something useful.

[leathel]

I haven't read all this thread....and well this is not competition....but it is multi cylinder :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ratfuML9QA

Leaves me a bit cold though :rolleyes:

[husaberg]

A Suzuki page i haven't translated it yet. At least the pics are in Engerish.


http://jfrmc.ganriki.net/nkmenu.htm

[avgas]

Seeing how you zeroed in on a word of Designed rather than Crafted don't insult the bike by calling it essentially a Maserati because of design influences, that puts it in the same ball park as calling an early Katana a BMW or every bevel Ducati of the 70s & early 80s a Seeley or even calling a Darmah an Italjet.
We all know Hans Muth the BMW designer was contracted to design the original Katana
Colin Seeley was directly responsible for the frames of dukes up to the last MHRs.
And Leopoldo Tartarini of Italjet had done design styling for ducati and was given the sole styling design brief for the Darmah
Or why not call the Benelli TNT1150 the modern Laverda triple because that's basically what it is :yes:
Don't confuse the design house with the designer.......even Oberdan Bezzi isn't allowed to mention what bikes he has worked on.
If you were to make that comparison. A modern Ducati and a Jawa would have a lot in comparison.

Also Hans was contracted to assist the design of the Kat. But only a fool would believe that to be a 100% german design. The fact it had IL4 accross, normal suspension, square headlight.........no to mention the 100's of other Mirai-tekina (futurist) rather than just modernest/bauhaus elements....I very much doubt this was a solo effort. Compare R-series BMWs and you soon see he had some outside help. I imagine there are a few unnamed, young, Japanese designers that were 'forgotten'. Even the XN85 seems to be more aligned with the BMW R-series than the orginal Kat.

Holden Viva = DeLorean + Ferrari?
Nah just same firm - different people.

[dangerous]

Even the XN85 seems to be more aligned with the BMW R-series than the orginal Kat. having had both... HOW THE FARK ya figger that???

[husaberg]

Now bobo has f-ed off....

[F5 Dave]

[I][/Iahh Yamalicious.

[pete376403]

Anyone mentioned these yet? I recall reading they were very fast but prone to seizing. Bill Ivy was killed when one of them did just that.

[dangerous]

Anyone mentioned these yet? I recall reading they were very fast but prone to seizing. Bill Ivy was killed when one of them did just that.

looks rather flash for a Jawa... tel us about it?

[husaberg]

Anyone mentioned these yet? I recall reading they were very fast but prone to seizing. Bill Ivy was killed when one of them did just that.

I think it was jack Findlay who was also offered a contract as well. His wife said no way, clever lady.
I have never actually seen a colour photo of one.:niceone:

[pete376403]

looks rather flash for a Jawa... tel us about it?

These people have the story: http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/19290/lot/449/
(the one for sale is a Yamaha powered replica)

"If ever there was a Grand Prix racing motorcycle famous for all the wrong reasons, it is the notorious Jawa V4, which claimed the life of former world champion Bill Ivy at the Sachsenring in 1969. Ivy crashed in practice when the temperamental Czech two-stroke seized at high speed, the bike and its rider sliding into an unprotected concrete wall.

Jawa's hopes of Grand Prix glory effectively ended with Bill Ivy's passing. Yet despite its fearsome reputation there was no shortage of riders willing to race the V4, which was the only credible rival to MV Agusta in the 350 class. The likes of Jack Findlay, Ginger Molloy and Silvio Grassetti all raced the Czech two-strokes with some success, Grassetti's 2nd place at the Italian Grand Prix in 1969 being the best result achieved. When the FIM banned multi-cylinder engines from the 350 class at the end of the '69 season, the Jawa V4's career was effectively over.

According to information kindly supplied by the Prague Technical Museum, only three complete Type 673 racers were completed by the factory in period, plus a number of spare engines, a handful of which were 420cc. Of the three complete machines retained by the Jawa factory museum in the 1970s, one is still there while another was bought circa 1990 by a Mr Faber from Vienna and is now owned by a German enthusiast. The third was bought and restored by its designer, Zdenek Tichy, and since 2003 has been owned by the Prague Technical Museum."

[husaberg]

If i can be arsed tomorrow i will scan a classic racer piece on it, if i can find it........

[pete376403]

another interesting web site http://www.kocmoc.com/BikeCorner/cz/

'In the 1969, the CZ launched a real technical wonder: the 350 "Typ-860" GP (six pics above), with V-four engine, developed by the engineer Frantisek Pudil since 1967. This beautiful and advanced bike, with double head camshaft, 16 valves (the intake valves in Titanium), 8-speeds gearbox, Ceriani fork and Dell'Orto SSI carburettors, had a power of 63 hp/16.000 rpm (max speed 240 km/h). Unfortunately, the development of this bike was penalized by the heavy Czechoslovakian political crisis. Initially, the engine was equipped with a system of injection produced by the english brand Lucas, but the new pro-Soviet nomenklatura forbidden the shipment of the CZ engine in England! Although these hard difficulties, the 350 V4 obtained several good results: the best was made in 1971, at the Czeckoslovakian Grand Prix when Bohumil Stasa arrived second in the wheels of Jarno Saarinen on his 350cc twin Yamaha. It is in 1972 that it misses the victory at the Austrian Grand Prix. Just few laps before the finish, the CZ was leading in front of Giacomo Agostini when it had to retire...In the 1972, the CZ abandoned the GP competitions to concentrate the efforts in the motocross, less expensive.'

[Bert]

Sorry not really a 1950's.... but cool all the same.
no where else to put this (was going to place it in the formula 1 discussion in the racing thread; but why waste it)...


http://youtu.be/m9N1gfLQ--k

Still brings a smile to my face...

grab a beer and enjoy.

[dangerous]

Ivy crashed in practice when the temperamental Czech two-stroke seized at high speed, the bike and its rider sliding into an unprotected concrete wall.
"kinda" know what thats like... my 350LC seized at the greymouth street races a couple a years ago, luckly I was exiting the slowest corner and the clutch worked well, left me in the fence but on the bik... FARKING strokers, but LOVE EM
piston on the right, the left one is a 125 twin and was still running back in the pits.

289479

[koba]

"kinda" know what thats like... my 350LC seized at the greymouth street races a couple a years ago, luckly I was exiting the slowest corner and the clutch worked well, left me in the fence but on the bik... FARKING strokers, but LOVE EM
piston on the right, the left one is a 125 twin and was still running back in the pits.

289479

Shit, you almost make it look like there are trophies for wrecking pistons, if that was the case for real I'd have a full cabinet!

[avgas]

having had both... HOW THE FARK ya figger that???
I am a bit rusty but just of the top of my head this was on the xn6 but not on the kat 750: Kick-flick on the top of the SQUARE screen (kat was triangular), seat is box section rather than curved, unpainted motor, fairing has sunken headlight, sidecovers over more of the angle section frame and there was something about the wheels that I can't remember.

But XN85 was still a Japanese bike - but you can tell Hans had a little more design input on it than the Kat. I only got curious after seeing R100 near a Kat near a XN.....and you could see the similarities.
But the differences in design were even more subtle (except for the obvious stuff like engine type).

[seymour14]

Latest rendition of the Brough Superior SS100.

[Kickaha]

Latest rendition of the Brough Superior SS100.
:sick::sick: Now that's a fucking ugly bike

[seymour14]

:sick::sick: Now that's a fucking ugly bike

That's what I first thought, the headlight is madness, the engine is blocky, the tank is true to Brough's old look in a modern concept, as is the exhaust system. The more I looked, the more I could see what there up to, as Brough was a mover and shaker in their times, some day a bike like this will look normal to us.

At the moment though, it looks a little bizarre.

I could see this thing roaring down the road in a Mad Max movie!!

[Yow Ling]

Looks smarter than the SS90

[husaberg]

Looks smarter than the SS90

post of the year.......:yes:

[dangerous]

I am a bit rusty but just of the top of my head this was on the xn6 but not on the kat 750: Kick-flick on the top of the SQUARE screen (kat was triangular), seat is box section rather than curved, unpainted motor, fairing has sunken headlight, sidecovers over more of the angle section frame and there was something about the wheels that I can't remember.

But XN85 was still a Japanese bike - but you can tell Hans had a little more design input on it than the Kat. I only got curious after seeing R100 near a Kat near a XN.....and you could see the similarities.
But the differences in design were even more subtle (except for the obvious stuff like engine type).


Even the XN85 seems to be more aligned with the BMW R-series than the orginal Kat.
fuck man ya got me way lost... BMW R80 R90 R100 etc a nakid or faired flat twin... how do the compare to the XN which looks very similer to the Kat bothe IL4, small screen (nill on the BMW or huge) seat is a seat, none had painted motors if they did then it was silver, both Kat and XN had sunken lights in the fairing, the R100 sport may have to, offf shit what you on about?

[cotswold]

Funny but true,
I had this bike back in the 70's or early 80's and had not seen one since but me and the family were camping up at Waipu cove and I heard this bike coming into the camp site, I could have won any amount of cash on name that engine sound. It was a single ported 600 but still sounded the same as mine, loved that bike.

[Grumph]

There's a Lanz Bulldog lives up the road from me which comes through every few weeks around this time of year going to shows etc...First time i heard it, i thought it was a Panther with a loud pipe...

[cotswold]

There's a Lanz Bulldog lives up the road from me which comes through every few weeks around this time of year going to shows etc...First time i heard it, i thought it was a Panther with a loud pipe...

Yes it was mentioned in the same breath as a field marshall

for those with an interest in massive singles

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEurohAwrmA

[dangerous]

I had this bike back in the 70's or early 80's and had not seen one since ohh yeah, 'she' is tidy man... but hey whats the bike engine?


There's a Lanz Bulldog lives up the road from me which comes through every few weeks around this time of year going to shows etc...First time i heard it, i thought it was a Panther with a loud pipe...hey same.. well sorta, aint sen it yet but heard it.. think its shipleys down adams rd, what a farking sound aye

ANYWAY... how the hell did a 'muility' pot thread turn into a 'single' thread??? :laugh:

[F5 Dave]

Better not tell the missus that you're looking at singles threads:no:

[pete376403]

Better not tell the missus that you're looking at singles threads:no:

Singles thread? "Old-multi-cylinder-bikes-of-the-50s-to-later-on-Japanese-British-Euro-etc"

[Henk]

Singles thread? "Old-multi-cylinder-bikes-of-the-50s-to-later-on-Japanese-British-Euro-etc"

Good camouflage

[koba]

Funny but true,
I had this bike back in the 70's or early 80's and had not seen one since but me and the family were camping up at Waipu cove and I heard this bike coming into the camp site, I could have won any amount of cash on name that engine sound. It was a single ported 600 but still sounded the same as mine, loved that bike.


Panther Rider:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxiJRolmDZI

Could have even been him?

[husaberg]

ohh yeah, 'she' is tidy man... but hey whats the bike engine?

hey same.. well sorta, aint sen it yet but heard it.. think its shipleys down adams rd, what a farking sound aye

ANYWAY... how the hell did a 'muility' pot thread turn into a 'single' thread??? :laugh:


Better not tell the missus that you're looking at singles threads:no:


Singles thread? "Old-multi-cylinder-bikes-of-the-50s-to-later-on-Japanese-British-Euro-etc"


Good camouflage


original post;)

OK i have a few magazines articles that have some well engineered 4 stroke multi's (Plus the odd single) from back when basically the only rule was capacity
IE Real race bikes.

I must get around to scanning a few more...oneday.

[husaberg]

Few people would seen or heard of this i had just seen the odd reference.
I could have posted this in ESE or the chassis thread (might anyway).
Tell you the truth i wouldn't mind building a replica anyone got a Crescent 500 3 engine (lying about, they want to give away like:rolleyes:)
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291511&d=1388173907
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291512&d=1388173965
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291513&d=1388173965
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291514&d=1388177354
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291509&d=1388173829
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291510&d=1388173907
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291508&d=1388173829
This last pic i think is another version maybe?http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291515&d=1388177354

[husaberg]

Crescent engine pics that wouldn't fit

[Kickaha]

Few people would seen or heard of this i had just seen the odd reference.
Very clever man and built some very interesting stuff, the Catvan race transporter was awesome, he's worked on bicycle stuff for some time now

[husaberg]

Very clever man and built some very interesting stuff, the Catvan race transporter was awesome, he's worked on bicycle stuff for some time now

I knew he was a sidecar guy so show us his stuff Kick.

[Kickaha]

I knew he was a sidecar guy so show us his stuff Kick.

Dane Rowe
http://i43.servimg.com/u/f43/17/03/71/33/bubu_l10.jpg

Sidecar
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3156/2966770061_961ae24826.jpg

Catvan
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3426/3382051649_f91646d1d8.jpg

[dangerous]

Dane... nice, swinger i asume (hope)
hey the sidecar pic, interesting a stroker with chambers but rather than finishing with a stinger its more a 4T megaphone, how that work, not to well i asume?

[TZ350]

291578

3 cylinder TZ ???

[TZ350]

291585

Music had Blondie, racing had Dane Rowe .... a serious side car swinger from the 70's and something of a Hottie.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/teamheronsuzuki/sets/72157608302512322

[Kickaha]

291578

3 cylinder TZ ???

Yeah, he used a crescent triple motor in an earlier one

here's some more http://www.yamahaclassictwostrokes.nl/tripples-zelf/rudi-kurth-500cc-3-cylinder-sidecar/

Rudi also built some chassis for Fritz Scheidegger that won world championships back in the mid sixties

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/s720x720/23719_415000641907714_478760524_n.jpg?lvh=1
The transporter that he built was based on a citroen station wagon,he's also done some stuff with solar race vehicles

[husaberg]

291578

3 cylinder TZ ???

THe dutch Yamaha importers had one in a solo they built, can't remember what cc it was.

[Kickaha]

THe dutch Yamaha importers had one in a solo they built, can't remember what cc it was.

This was a 500, based on a 1-1/2 x TZ350

[Kickaha]

THe dutch Yamaha importers had one in a solo they built, can't remember what cc it was.

Might have been Ferry Brouwer I think they built a 350/3 and a 500/3

[husaberg]

Might have been Ferry Brouwer I think they built a 350/3 and a 500/3

Likely was a clever bloke, i think Kenny roberts set up was based out the back of the Dutch Yam importer as well in a "workshop" for a fair while as well.

[dangerous]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/s720x720/23719_415000641907714_478760524_n.jpg?lvh=1
The transporter that he built was based on a citroen station wagon,he's also done some stuff with solar race vehicles
pure tast this man... TR6 if Im not mistaken

[Kickaha]

pure tast this man... TR6 if Im not mistaken

I don't think the pommy pile of shit was his

[husaberg]

the side car looks like it tips its hat to the batmobile as well:yes:

[husaberg]

what are we debating here? cos ya all lost me

Radial = pots in a radial format
Vee = pots in a V format
Paralell = pots side by side
Square = pots in a square format
Ell = pots in a L format
Tandom = KR
Transverse = any formate with crank (cranks) laying paralell with the bike
Flat = the pots are on their farking flat

all reguardles off number of cranks :Punk:

LOL another layout to argue over
Trapezoid:msn-wink:
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/9943/august06zi5.jpg

[Grumph]

I'd call it the result of a designer with too much free time - and too much Saki on board...

If one aim was more transfer port space, looking at the pic showing the cases from the right, I'd call it a fail as they still look shallow and small....

[husaberg]

I'd call it the result of a designer with too much free time - and too much Saki on board...

If one aim was more transfer port space, looking at the pic showing the cases from the right, I'd call it a fail as they still look shallow and small....

I see it as like all designs a compromise. Although in the Black and white pic in my post it does look like it does overhang the crank so maybe its not so bad? it could also be 6 transfer port as well?
In this case in order to both keep it reasonably narrow and keep the wheelbase down.
i would like to see some inside pics myself

I only just seen the inside pics of A "real" KR250 the other day. Its so bloodly clever.........
I like it far far better than a Rotax or its ilk. IMO its a better compromise........
I would do a v angle version though.........If i would get around to it lol.
Having said that i like the look of a repackaged longitudinal boxer "Koing but different" sort of 45 degree and stacked on the gearbox.

[Bender]

Those Kwakkas sure are sexy.

[husaberg]

...........
Yendor, on Dec 12 2006, 14:07, said: Hi Phillipe and thank you for the welcome. I did work with Rudi for a while and whilst with him I had the opportunity to ride the solo at the French GP at Paul Ricard. It used the same engine as the outfit but suffered cooling problems due to the somewhat limited space for a radiator compared with the sidecar version. This lead to several exiting moments on the Mistral Straight when the cooling system reached bursting point and relieved itself through the radiator cap straight up under the screen and back into my face, the resulting steam cloud rendering me temporarely blind whilst flat out :rotfl: The wheels were six spoke Offenstadts with three spokes removed :eek: Due to its light weight and extremely low build the handling was superb, but the brakes, which I believe were Dunstall, were hopeless. The rear suspension was catilever using a modified Citroen car unit much the same as the three wheeler. The workmanship, as with all Rudis project was superb. With further developement I think it would have been quite successful. Unfortunately the pressure of Rudis GP campaign and the fact that I left prematurely to join Kawasaki meant the end to my involvement.


Chris, Rudi Kurth's first "CAT" outfit was powered by a Crescent 3 cylinder based on a powerboat outboard engine . He used that in 1974 and the chassis , although a very low monocoque , still kept the basis of the "classical" sidecars i.e a front "earles"-style fork . The later "CAT" outfit that I was thinking of was a totally different design , with just a central piece with the three wheels attached by triangular car-style suspensions....that was the one fitted with a Yamaha triple, he used it in 1976 I think....I would need to dig deep into my old magazines to set things straight in terms of chronology, I'm not certain now who first experimented with car-style suspensions on the sidecars, Rudi Kurth, Rolf Biland with his first Seymaz , or even for you Brits the Boret brothers with their Renwick König

Anyway, to come back to the original topic, from what you are saying Chris it does appear than the earliest Yamaha triple experiments indeed took place in Britain....you always learn something on this forum !

[pete376403]

Did the KR750-4 ever race? or even run in testing?

[dangerous]

LOL another layout to argue over
Trapezoid:msn-wink:

wanker...

well theres many a desine similer to that like the 'ross yoke stirling' or the one I cant remember that has a single crank 2 rows a pots pistons being triangle shaped (in use today) Ill have to read up on ya Kawa, cos I dont see any advantage

[husaberg]

wanker...
Ill have to read up on ya Kawa, cos I dont see any advantage
well its narrower than the kawa 3
Shorter than the conventional Square 4. With more room for transfers and reeds(why the RG500's had 6 transfers)
I guess the layout would also lend it self to the rider being able to tuck in neatly
has many disadvantages too, i guess, thats why there we are not all running around on them.

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn53/TeeZed/KAWASAKI-KR-750-FOUR-CYLIND.jpghttp://www.ozebook.com/images/e32a62a756c84aab87e02d45f5e89413.jpg


Did the KR750-4 ever race? or even run in testing?
No idea...........edit race no tested yes


the trapezoid story was broken by REVS in Sydney. I've just asked ex editor Mike Esdaile. Here's his answer:

"The Trapezoid 750/4 photos and part of the article were from a story Brian Cowan did for REVS with pix from Greg McBean.
"I got the 'scoop' because I asked Neville the right question.
"British MCN had speculated on it - saying it was a square four.
"So I asked Neville, was Kawasaki developing a 750 square four?
"He said 'no'.
"So Cowan and I pondered this for a while, and next time I called Neville, I asked: "is Kawasaki developing a 750cc two-stroke four cylinder race bike
of ANY engine configuration.
"He paused, then said 'yes'.
"We talked some more then he offered us the exclusive, if we would send someone to Melbourne.
"So I sent BC and Greg and voila...
"It was fitted into a KR750 chassis and they were trying to develop that at the same time Greg was racing the KR250 & KR350 in 1978. They also had the KR750/3 for Internationals and in between all that Neville was trying to get the 750 4 sorted.
"I understand they had some vibration issues that caused some problems."


By 1978 the KR had seen the best of its days and factory support had all but diminished, efforts back at the factory had turned to an all-new four-cylinder race engine, the 602S. This featured a strange, trapezoid cylinder arrangement that allowed the engine to be even narrower (50mm) than the triple that preceded it. Two of the reed-valve 750cc engines where produced and rumoured to produce around 145bhp, one engine was slotted into a KR like chassis and showed much promise, Australian Hansford riding it in practise at the Italian 750 round, but electing to use the older triple for the race after vibration with the four proved troublesome. The 602S was returned to Japan never to be seen again and with end F750 racing being forecast some time before work began, it is more likely that this design was really the basis of Kawasaki’s entry into 500GP racing, albeit when they did return it was with a square-four, disc-valve machine.

The project for this bikes was called "602S".

Kawasaki lost interest in this one due the cancellation of the F750 class. If you want to know more about it talk to Ken Yoshida - he was "the father" of this one as well. I have met him a couple of years ago and had a good and very interesting talk with him.



Kawasaki also had a project in the shadows that was altogether revolutionary, built around a liquid-cooled two stroke “trapezoid” configuration. A trapezoid, shown at the head of this story, has one side shorter than its opposite. The Kawasaki trapzoid engine, with the front bank of cylinders narrower than the rear, is shown below left of the trapezoid diagram.

Pictures exist of this engine in mule chassis like both the H2 and the Z1 (the second and third photos above). But emission standards in the United States had begun to close the door on the big two-stroke. Kawasaki’s H2 was gone by 1977, and Suzuki’s Water Buffalo was finished by 1978. If Kawasaki entertained any serious plans to up the ante on its quick two-strokes, the success of the Z1 proved it unadvisable. The street-going trapezoid Kawasaki never saw the light of day.

Later, in 1978, Kawasaki brought forward a trapezoid two-stroke again, but only for racing purposes (pictured above right). The inboard/outboard relationship of its cylinders was the opposite from the street prototype (the racing engine, shown left, had its narrower bank of cylinders to the rear), but it was clearly a continuation of the concept. Designated the 602S and intended to capture the World Formula 750 title, it was tested by Gregg Hansford, but never entered in competition. Those familiar with the machine say the “trapezoidal” geared crank configuration allowed for quick adoption of a vast range of different cylinder firing order.

Unfortunately, having never been fully developed for street or racing use, the Kawasaki trapezoids remained trapped in time by the new rules of the EPA and the demise of Formula 750, the last season for which was 1979.
Down below is meant to be a 750 3 frame that once housed the Trapezoid 4 note the width.....

[cotswold]

Some well known riders picked these 10 bikes as the best sounding ever from 10 down to 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL8vJTaAvYg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MRiPJBFEKA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA9v750FOow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gppp-U4jgqI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Nv6TTofnM8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gJzPQ5Y7l4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXQMJctKrLw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf4YJ_Q2tak

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGhZimXUFyA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o57JwibqCb8


I added this one as how could it not make the top 10 ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n__6tsOfzLo

[F5 Dave]

Ok so here's a question; old tanks like on the first clip of the kawa, what's the porpoise of the round hollow with the cap screwed in discs at the rear sides of the tank?

[pete376403]

High speed refuelling - adapted from race car tech. I believe Kawasaki used it first because the race triples were so thirsty

[husaberg]

they are the dry break entries aren't they like a Daytona TZ750?


Same TZ750 (http://www.racingvincent.co.uk/14%20Norton%20Site/KTM-Got-030510.htm), but left side this time, showing lovely endurance fuel filler cap. All you need is quick release endurance filler setup and then you could use it . . . http://www.racingvincent.co.uk/16%20Newsletters/KTM%20Photos/Thumbs/IMG00148-20100425-1104%20Thumb.jpg

[dangerous]

Some well known riders picked these 10 bikes as the best sounding ever from 10 down to 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL8vJTaAvYg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MRiPJBFEKA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA9v750FOow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gppp-U4jgqI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Nv6TTofnM8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gJzPQ5Y7l4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXQMJctKrLw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf4YJ_Q2tak

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGhZimXUFyA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o57JwibqCb8


I added this one as how could it not make the top 10 ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n__6tsOfzLo
hey #8 the 350LC... nice but reckon mines a sweeter sound, and oddley enough the 250 with stock pipes is something cool to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmvS4l7b2_M

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/wPmL0j2_JsU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[F5 Dave]

But why on the side and so recessed? Seems like you'd lose a lot of valuable tank space.

[husaberg]

But why on the side and so recessed? Seems like you'd lose a lot of valuable tank space.

They fill under pressure so being the side wouldn't matter? why on the side though ,that i don't know, maybe easier to hook into?no need for an overhead setup for the rig?
http://clarkemfg.com/bmz_cache/0/03954795600bf55832f43000f06d3846.image.194x200.jpg

[jasonu]

They fill under pressure so being the side wouldn't matter? why on the side though ,that i don't know, maybe easier to hook into?no need for an overhead setup for the rig?
http://clarkemfg.com/bmz_cache/0/03954795600bf55832f43000f06d3846.image.194x200.jpg

Maybe they were just plain stupid...

[husaberg]

Maybe they were just plain stupid...
but they all were then.....
Maybe it was an American idea..
I bet they had an rule that said they were only allowed to carry x liters of fuel anyway(which co-incidentally was exactly what the Harleys needed to do the race without a pit stop)

[dangerous]

2 theorys here... 1 its easist for pit crew to run up to the side of the bit to fill, 2nd as fuel goes in down low air gets out quicker through the top, and maybe spilage is safer out the side rather than over the top and electrics.

[Grumph]

2 theorys here... 1 its easist for pit crew to run up to the side of the bit to fill, 2nd as fuel goes in down low air gets out quicker through the top, and maybe spilage is safer out the side rather than over the top and electrics.

Congrats, D - both correct. the hose is a big heavy piece of kit, yes. shouldn't be any spillage, it's called a dry break system for a reason...and yes, the air goes out the top via a f'n big clear hose. As soon as fuel is seen in the breather hose the dry break connection is pulled. With any luck, the tank is full....Honda however had a record of stuffing it up. Either underfilling or getting so much in it pressurised the tank....

[koba]

My best sound list would have to include the Moto Guzzi V8, pretty awesome sound for a poppet monster.

[Grumph]

My best sound list would have to include the Moto Guzzi V8, pretty awesome sound for a poppet monster.

Nah, that thing is quiet - at Puke when it was here you could barely hear it.

At the same meeting though was the supercharged AJS V4 - on straight pipes it sounded like a particularly angry smallblock Chevy...

[koba]

Nah, that thing is quiet - at Puke when it was here you could barely hear it.

At the same meeting though was the supercharged AJS V4 - on straight pipes it sounded like a particularly angry smallblock Chevy...

I'd love to hear both in the 'flesh'.

[Grumph]

I'd love to hear both in the 'flesh'.

Memory was playing tricks on me - the Guzzi was at puke, yes, but a different year to the blown bikes.

The blown BMW just sounded like a BM usually does, the Velo roarer sounded like a mild Triumph, but the AJS was as i said, very like a smallblock Chevy on heat.

All the Puke meetings just blend into one....only the noises and the stink of the toilets stays in the memory.

[husaberg]

Memory was playing tricks on me - the Guzzi was at puke, yes, but a different year to the blown bikes.

The blown BMW just sounded like a BM usually does, the Velo roarer sounded like a mild Triumph, but the AJS was as i said, very like a smallblock Chevy on heat.

All the Puke meetings just blend into one....only the noises and the stink of the toilets stays in the memory.

Oh that odd i would have thought the Roarer would have sounded more like a single? but an esp loud one........
Come to think of it though can't recollect what a tandem Rotax kart sounds like?
I will scan the Roarer story sometime bloody interesting bit of kit it was.... at the time.
I can remember Ivan Rhodes staying at our place years ago he was more interested in the cutlery than the BSA's.......

[Kickaha]

Come to think of it though can't recollect what a tandem Rotax kart sounds like?
They dont normally run long enough to be able to have a decent listen

[koba]

All the Puke meetings just blend into one....only the noises and the stink of the toilets stays in the memory.

Yeah, I know what you mean with events like that.

Always meant to get along to a Classic festival but have had too much racing of my own on, not a bad thing though.
One day...

[F5 Dave]

They dont normally run long enough to be able to have a decent listen

Ahh piss off, plenty of 256's ran reliably out of the hands of muppets. My mate's one has Mikuni's rather than the Dellortos which may have helped although starting it was a simple affair if there was someone helping push. By yourself if it didn't start on the first jump you were in trouble, the main reason why I didn't buy it as I'd not have a pit crew most of the time. . . .+ the frame was '83ish so precluded entering it in pre'82 & we don't have much Bears up here.

Years later roller starters became popular & I also saw some kart starters that would have been ideal.

Sounded like a twin to me. Old school dry clutch at idle makes some noise.

Still in his spare bedroom, but I have neither the time or money to try tempt it away again.

[Kickaha]

Ahh piss off, plenty of 256's ran reliably out of the hands of muppets.
In the time I was racing Karts I didn't ever see one as reliable as the TZ250 powered karts and parts availibilty was total shit

[F5 Dave]

So they ran 1980-what,say 89. Bit old really.

[Kickaha]

So they ran 1980-what,say 89. Bit old really.
I was talking more around lare nineties early 2000, I was running a V twin TZ and so was Bryan, Nigel was running a reverse cylinder TZ, since then there's a few Rotax clones out which are very nicely built
like the PVP
http://www.pvpkart.com/105%20PVP%20Motor%20left.jpg
and the FPE
http://fpe-racing.pagesperso-orange.fr/Moteurs_fichiers/Fiche%20FPE%20TR250%20emb.jpg

[husaberg]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291797&d=1388527444

This will offend a few but the Kawasaki (the real KR250 and 350 not the road ones)IMO is a far better design than any of the rotax clones

[F5 Dave]

I was talking more around lare nineties early 2000, I was running a V twin TZ and so was Bryan, Nigel was running a reverse cylinder TZ, . . .


What a waste of Yamaha engines using them in 4 wheelers, sheesh.




This will offend a few but the Kawasaki (the real KR250 and 350 not the road ones)IMO is a far better design than any of the rotax clones

Why would that offend? You're comparing works bikes to privateer available machinery.

I hear Freddie's NSR250 got along ok. Maybe we should put the engine in a buggy & run it up the beach for the kids to play in?

[husaberg]

Why would that offend? You're comparing works bikes to privateer available machinery.


I was meaning the layout which the works powered Rotax's shared as well.
I think the the Kart clones might have been better off to do more of the Kawa layout

[T.W.R]

This will have ya fucked for a while :msn-wink:

As seen at the 1st Road Racing Show Dec 7 1979 Alexandra Place Nth London


http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=292494&d=1389855445

[unstuck]

Is it a plymouth?:scratch:

[husaberg]

This will have ya fucked for a while :msn-wink:

As seen at the 1st Road Racing Show Dec 7 1979 Alexandra Place Nth London


Looks like a collection of chainsaws.......