Are the boys at BSB with their "stock" superbikes onto something?

[Robert Taylor]

But it shouldnt be lost sight of that many of the bikes we can buy today are the result of ongoing development. Many of those positive developments come from the racetrack and not neccessarily all of those geared to going fast. There already are classes that are strictly controlled with do's and dont's and it would be silly to over-restrict the premier classes.

[Robert Taylor]

Yep it sucks, did you know in the IDM sbk only the top ten qualifiers get the good race tyres. Once you are in that group you are away laughing as they give you good qualifying tyres the next round - go figure.
Nothing in life is fair and we have to deal with what we have - ask my wife.

Id call that incentive. ( Capitalism versus socialism and its dumbing down mentality ) Incentive to qualify and race well, incentive for the technicians to build a good bike and set it up well track to track. And not forgetting incentive for your wife.

[twinshock750]

Last I saw they give out trophies to riders and manufacturers, not tyre companies. The stories you hear of the old days when Michelin etc flew in specials for the favoured few just make me cringe. Stuff like Elias being an also ran in '06, on a privateer Honda, being gifted a set of Pedrosa's "special's" and going on to win an epic race with Rossi make the "sport" a joke, creating much the same 2 tiers as we have now with the prorotypes and CRT. If the best man can't win then I'm not interested.

Edit: I understand what you are saying regards parity and where to draw the line, but the basic interaction with the road is something that should be universal.

What about the poor bastard who for some reason can't get comfortable on the one make tyre...Look at Simon Crafar, GP winner, podium placer, and regular top 1/2 doz in 98 on Dunlops. '99 on Michies's gets the DCM (Don't Come Monday).

What if the tyre you get just doesn't work with your bike? Ohh, bad luck see you next year, they might be different.

The best rider should by default be good enough to find a tyre that works best FOR THEM. Though recognising your comment above Slowpoke, whether he can access that particular tyre is a different story.....!

[Tony.OK]

Progress is all good, but at what stage does it become just Time Trials?
Happened in F1 and got so boring spectators stopped turning up/watching........they went backwards in techy gear and it became more popular again.

Sure we want to see the latest n greatest machines/tech but if ppl loose interest due to boring races it can only hurt the sport long term.
At the end of the day its the spectators that keep it all going isn't it?

[codgyoleracer]

What about the poor bastard who for some reason can't get comfortable on the one make tyre...Look at Simon Crafar, GP winner, podium placer, and regular top 1/2 doz in 98 on Dunlops. '99 on Michies's gets the DCM (Don't Come Monday).

What if the tyre you get just doesn't work with your bike? Ohh, bad luck see you next year, they might be different.

The best rider should by default be good enough to find a tyre that works best FOR THEM. Though recognising your comment above Slowpoke, whether he can access that particular tyre is a different story.....!


The control tyre component of the BSB series, is justthat "a component" of a total package. As is the one bike rule, and as is their regs on bike build which pulled back the cost to build bikes and get them on the grid in that particular championship.

If all other things are equal (which they will never be) - then sure there would be a strong argument against a control tyre rule or the one bike rule as a single stand-alone discusssion, but when you add all of these components together the total outcome make the package work. Its unfair in essence to breakdown the components of a series and not consider them all as a whole.

This of course assumes that BSB have good process in place and are working to a "mission statement" for the series along the lines of

"BSB - Designed to bring to the public an exciting motorcycle racing spectacle - and provide an opportunity for both large and small race teams to be competitive"

This is the sort of stuff that has to be in place before you even start thinking about the individual series rules and the individual class rules. This stuff doesn’t exist here, - and or is not adhered too.

Unless you work to these types of over-viewing guideline statements, - you will often quickly loose direction, and fall into the mistake of allowing political forces outside of "the sport" steering the ship.

[Mental Trousers]

Last I saw they give out trophies to riders and manufacturers, not tyre companies. The stories you hear of the old days when Michelin etc flew in specials for the favoured few just make me cringe. Stuff like Elias being an also ran in '06, on a privateer Honda, being gifted a set of Pedrosa's "special's" and going on to win an epic race with Rossi make the "sport" a joke, creating much the same 2 tiers as we have now with the prorotypes and CRT. If the best man can't win then I'm not interested.

Edit: I understand what you are saying regards parity and where to draw the line, but the basic interaction with the road is something that should be universal.

On the world stage there was a need to limit the tyres, but here in NZ it's likely to be more expensive. If the Premier series were a Michelin only one I'd skip it and go race something else cos I can't get along with Michelin's no matter how many times I break my collar bone.

[codgyoleracer]

Progress is all good, but at what stage does it become just Time Trials?
Happened in F1 and got so boring spectators stopped turning up/watching........they went backwards in techy gear and it became more popular again.

Sure we want to see the latest n greatest machines/tech but if ppl loose interest due to boring races it can only hurt the sport long term.
At the end of the day its the spectators that keep it all going isn't it?


Answer me this riddle: Whats the most important & the most interesting to the casual observer ?

1) The fastest laptime ?
2) The close racing ?

[codgyoleracer]

On the world stage there was a need to limit the tyres, but here in NZ it's likely to be more expensive. If the Premier series were a Michelin only one I'd skip it and go race something else cos I can't get along with Michelin's no matter how many times I break my collar bone.

1) Unsubstantiated , pissing in the wind comment re cost
2) Michelins make some great tyres

[codgyoleracer]

Id call that incentive. ( Capitalism versus socialism and its dumbing down mentality ) Incentive to qualify and race well, incentive for the technicians to build a good bike and set it up well track to track. And not forgetting incentive for your wife.

So you think if the up-n-coming guy, now that he knows he is on
(A) a similar bike spec,
(B) similar tyre spec and
(C) doesnt have to worry about the fact that the top guys "dont care if they hiff it" cos like him/her they dont have a spare bike to jump onto & finish the race or days racing

You think he now has LESS incentive ??????

[Mental Trousers]

1) Unsubstantiated , pissing in the wind comment re cost

Until someone does it and proves it isn't more expensive for me to go racing then all comments on cost are pissing in the wind


2) Michelins make some great tyres

They certainly do, but they don't suit me.

[Tony.OK]

Answer me this riddle: Whats the most important & the most interesting to the casual observer ?

1) The fastest laptime ?
2) The close racing ?

Eggs Zachery!
Look how popular Moto2 is now, bagged to hell before it started, now its a spectacle to watch due to hard fought battles.

[codgyoleracer]

Until someone does it and proves it isn't more expensive for me to go racing then all comments on cost are pissing in the wind

OK, so lets think about what the advantages might be too a supplier, instead of bagging something cos it doesnt exist (which is pretty hard to do unless you have a timetravel machine)

1) Guaranteed purchase of 100's of tyres to one buyer
2) Bulk drop delivery of said tyres to one or two drop off points
3) Guaranteed payment
4) Secure and naming rights for a specific class within a national series

Hmm, now off the top of my head as an experienced manufacturer, importer and seller of products in New Zealand, i suspect it just miiiiight be doo-able.....

[Mental Trousers]

OK, so lets think about what the advantages might be too a supplier, instead of bagging something cos it doesnt exist (which is pretty hard to do unless you have a timetravel machine)

1) Guaranteed purchase of 100's of tyres to one buyer
2) Bulk drop delivery of said tyres to one or two drop off points
3) Guaranteed payment
4) Secure and naming rights for a specific class within a national series

Hmm, now off the top of my head as an experienced manufacturer, importer and seller of products in New Zealand, i suspect it just miiiiight be doo-able.....

It may seem attractive, however, the Aussies are now moving away from a single tyre rule and their domestic series is a closer match to ours than the British series is (although both are significantly larger than ours).

They appear to be working with 3 different manufacturers to get tyres supplied at a fixed cost. That's a far, far better option than a single tyre rule.

I reckon you'd have a lot more luck convincing MNZ to follow the Aussies than to go with a single tyre rule. Some of the MNZ people have already stated they're not in favour of a single tyre rule at all.

[codgyoleracer]

A post from A Stroud sometime back, GW


Some more ideas on growing the Nationals
Hi Everyone, Since it's my first post on here I hope I can get away with writting a noval.

My thoughts re, not enough bikes on the grid and some ideas that could encourage more participation in Superbikes / 600's?

Exactly what to do could depend on whether we are looking to attract more riders from within NZ or looking to attract more riders from outside NZ?

1). - If just NZ, then my thoughts would be to make it easier, cheaper and provide some more incentive to compete. Provide rules that both riders and distributors are happy with. I.e. Allowing bikes that riders want to ride which can be tuned at a reasonable cost, and if the distributors input is responsible for half the bikes on the grid (as per Superbike class) then they need to see that the rules will allow their bikes to be competitive. But also rules that do not require people to spend a fortune just because others are. (Personally, I believe that the time has finally come where the performance of the top sports bikes produced by the main manufactures has come to a level that would still allow for close racing even if the bikes were in a near standard form.)
From a riders perspective, I don't mind if the bike has 200hp or 180hp, as long as I wasn't at any disadvantage to others. If it costs an extra $30,000 each, for everyone to have 200hp instead of 180, then I'd expect the majority would pick the 180hp option.

2) To make it more attractive for riders from overseas to compete.
- Aline rules with similar classes overseas and invite overseas riders. I.e. NZ Superbike rules could be alined with Aus Superbikes and if there is to be a second racing class within the Superbike class then why not aline rules with Australia 1000cc Superstock ( standard motor, but allows suspension and exhaust system). Then invite Australian riders and even help organise a container to bring their gear over and back. (who wants a sideline job??). It wouldn't hurt to also promote the NZ series abroad and invite riders from American.. UK...Japan...Europe.. Etc. Our series can be at the perfect time of year for Northern hemisphere 'Racers' to gain more experience, ride on new tracks and get extra development time on their bikes, ....plus get a Summer holiday.......( any extra container space may be sellable to trackday fans.) Air tickets to Aus have never been cheaper
Current NZ Superbike rules are very close to Aus Superbike's. The main difference being, we can machine pistons. Why not start off by changing that one rule to be in line with Australia. This would help reduce preparation time and costs for NZ riders while making it an option to race your bike in Aus and for Aussies to race their bikes here. For this season we could allow the older model bikes to run with their already machined pistons but the new bikes / distributor bikes must have standard pistons. I'd expect the new models to still have an advantage anyway and it may inspire more privateers to compete on their bikes that aren't a new model.
.
Having a 1000cc Superstock kind of class (open Production) would lift the grid numbers and provide a cheaper way to race a 1000. Open Production riders could prove themselves by mixing it with as many Superbikes as they could.
This could also be proposed for the 600 class. i.e. Within the current class a more 'Production' class could line up with the Aus 600 Superstock rules i.e. Basically a muffler, rear spring, fork oil and a fairing.
Lap time wise, I'd estimate the Proddy bikes to be less than a second a lap slower, though if the Proddy riders are concerned about being lapped then we could go back to having three shorter races - say 10laps each(or 25km), one Sat arvo and two Sunday. Mark one set of tyres to be used for qualifying and race 1 then on Sunday mark another set of tyres to be used for race 2 and 3. .....??

The privateers cup idea seems ok though personally when I raced in the '06 Australian Superbike Championship I got points for the privateers cup, but really it didn't mean a lot to me. Riders seem to want to race for a National Championship title. If the Stock Production classes were given National Championship status then there would probably be more interest and more competitors enter.

Tyres;
I'd be just as happy using 2 sets of harder compound production tyres for a weekend as I would be using 4 or 5 sets of the softest compound slicks that we can get away with.
It would be great if a 'control tyre' could work here as it does in other championships ? If a NZ tyre distributor could sponsor the series and offer a deal to provide tyres to every rider for, say... $400 a set and then maybe offer a $200 buy back option then that would significantly reduce the cost of being competitive. ( Apparently the full retail for a rear Dunlop Slick can be near on $700!!! And if you want to be competitive you probably need to test 3 different compounds before qualifying even starts, just to see what compound is going to work best for the particular track and race distance!!!!) The treaded proddy tyres are so close to slicks now anyway but they are sellable to road guys when used. Gareth Jones used them as control tyres in the World Superstocks last year and said they worked really well.

In considering other ways to increase M/c racing profile and encourage more sponsor support could we re-look at joining one or two of the car meetings.
Sponsors could invite clients and put on hospitality in an action packed exciting atmosphere with lots of spectators.
V8 Nationals get good crowds and TV is already there. A1GP was open to including bikes in their Australian round so why not try for it here (if it's still happening). Timaru also worked well and Hampton Downs could be another good one to enquire about. Most car race spectators are pleasantly surprised and very impressed with the speed and dynamic racing that bikes can provide. Distributors also see their products displayed to another audience. Companies could be more likely to sponsor the race, (getting naming rights) which could go towards providing some reasonable prize money.
I know Motorsport NZ are pressed for time at there meetings so what about proposing Superbikes and 600's in the same race. (Gareth may be the only one with a problem trying to ride two bikes at once if they both carried national points.)
The lap times are close enough between 1000's and 600's and a grid of 35 bikes would be impressive.
Also, as there are already some motorcycle clubs discussing whether it is worth it for them to hold a National round then in ultilising a car meet this could provide an easier out for them.

Race Calendar;
In the past our last round has often been the only event to take place after the 1st round of the Australian Championship. That can put a spanner in the works for riders on both sides of the Tasman.
Can we communicate with Motorcycling Australia and coordinate it so our last round finished a couple of weeks before their first round starts.
Re meetings;
There seems to be good numbers turning up for winter series and club meetings, so there is the potential for many of these riders to contest the Nationals if it stacks up for them.
I understand that the 3 weeks away down the South Island can be too much $ and time away for some. We could look at making, say, Timaru a double header, where Wednesday or Thursday is official practice, Friday Qualifying, Saturday Rd? and Sunday the next round. Also this weekend could be the South Island round(s) that is Televised as the public have already seen lots of racing from Ruapuna but not from Levels. Teretonga is a great track and it would be a shame to leave it out though how many riders don't do the Nationals due to the expense, time off and distance to travel? Teretonga has the Burt Munroe Meeting for those who really need to race there.
Pukekohe could be left out as we heard that the Auckland Club is finding it hard to make it viable and besides that, really, it's too dangerous for a National round.
The series could finish Mid February with a Televised final round at Hampton Downs. A container could be at Hampton Downs ready to be loaded with bikes / gear to be delivered to Philip Island WSB for Round 1 of the Aussy Champs.

I hope you guys can help sort out any of the really practical ideas so we can put them forward asap.

Cheers,

Andrew Last edited by AndrewStroud; 15th May 2009 at 11:55. Reason: missed out a word

[Kiwi Graham]

Yes Glen it generated a bit of discussion then too http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1129213271#post1129213271

[jellywrestler]

OK, so lets think about what the advantages might be too a supplier, instead of bagging something cos it doesnt exist (which is pretty hard to do unless you have a timetravel machine)

1) Guaranteed purchase of 100's of tyres to one buyer
2) Bulk drop delivery of said tyres to one or two drop off points
3) Guaranteed payment
4) Secure and naming rights for a specific class within a national series

Hmm, now off the top of my head as an experienced manufacturer, importer and seller of products in New Zealand, i suspect it just miiiiight be doo-able.....

and what happens when said order gets here and it's wrong, cause maybe the company can't supply the right ones and we're 'too small' to worry about and they dump in any old thing into the container?

[codgyoleracer]

and what happens when said order gets here and it's wrong, cause maybe the company can't supply the right ones and we're 'too small' to worry about and they dump in any old thing into the container?

There a bunch of "and what happens if" moments, - but like anything it will require organization.

This is no doubt one of the reasons i suspect why the elephant stays quietly sitting in the corner.

[jellywrestler]

This is no doubt one of the reasons i suspect why the elephant stays quietly sitting in the corner. by that do you mean Metzelers?

[codgyoleracer]

by that do you mean Metzelers?

Haha, quite ironic as i use that particular blue elephant :-),

[montsta56]

If the Premier series were a Michelin only one I'd skip it and go race something else cos I can't get along with Michelin's no matter how many times I break my collar bone.

You probably werent going fast enough to keep them warm :cold:

[Crasherfromwayback]

and what happens when said order gets here and it's wrong, cause maybe the company can't supply the right ones and we're 'too small' to worry about and they dump in any old thing into the container?

You don't pay for them.

[tail_end_charlie]

30 BMW 1000R for sale on another thread.......theres a start.............joking:innocent:

I like that thought. No, seriously, I do. And I can supply the bikes.* It'll be epic!!!! :yes:





*So long as someone else supplies the dough to pay for them.

[SWERVE]

You don't pay for them.

Not much good when you have to pay for shipment (or a large part of it) before it leaves the dock................ getting a refund.............good luck.:facepalm:

[Mental Trousers]

You don't pay for them.

Not much good when you have to pay for shipment (or a large part of it) before it leaves the dock................ getting a refund.............good luck.:facepalm:

You're also left with a bunch of tyres that you can't use.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Not much good when you have to pay for shipment (or a large part of it) before it leaves the dock................ getting a refund.............good luck.:facepalm:

Hate to tell you this mate...but we don't pay for our tyres until they arrive.:facepalm:

[Robert Taylor]

So you think if the up-n-coming guy, now that he knows he is on
(A) a similar bike spec,
(B) similar tyre spec and
(C) doesnt have to worry about the fact that the top guys "dont care if they hiff it" cos like him/her they dont have a spare bike to jump onto & finish the race or days racing

You think he now has LESS incentive ??????

My references to spare bikes were tongue in cheek, the reality is virtually no-one now has a spare bike.

But what needs to be taken stock of is that any ''slash and burn'' of any classes needs to take stock that already there is very little room to move, sensibly. Many suppliers of bikes and componentry / expendable componentry are ( myself included ) already doing so at a bottom line of what is sensible, perhaps over that.

In Superbike stock engines with bolt on bits such as pipes and filters, and ECUs with an engine life extending rev limit sounds eminently sensible as a very real cost cutting move. BUT and this is a big but, policing of that becomes a major issue.

And is it always about trying to cut costs even further, when everyone involved should be trying to atract more money via sponsorship or by well heeled benefactors? Not so possible from product suppliers, as above. But occassionally we see well heeled benefactors come and go, but often go. Why is that? Is it because people with money who may be prepared to spend it on supporting young talent may either be put off by those in the paddock who almost openly sneer at people with large chequebooks? Or they get ''the vibes'', very quickly. Or, overall are we not as proffessional as we should be? Those factors being the case there are plenty of other sports where they may be more welcome.

[Robert Taylor]

Eggs Zachery!
Look how popular Moto2 is now, bagged to hell before it started, now its a spectacle to watch due to hard fought battles.

I like MotoGP, when Jorge clears off and wins comfortably

[Robert Taylor]

OK, so lets think about what the advantages might be too a supplier, instead of bagging something cos it doesnt exist (which is pretty hard to do unless you have a timetravel machine)

1) Guaranteed purchase of 100's of tyres to one buyer
2) Bulk drop delivery of said tyres to one or two drop off points
3) Guaranteed payment
4) Secure and naming rights for a specific class within a national series

Hmm, now off the top of my head as an experienced manufacturer, importer and seller of products in New Zealand, i suspect it just miiiiight be doo-able.....

Will you supply me 20 Greenhouses at 3% margin over your landed cost and free freight? Ill give you naming rights!!!!

[Crasherfromwayback]

I like MotoGP, when Jorge clears off and wins comfortably

Yeah he's still pretty to watch. But I prefer seeing a scrap for the win.

[The Chow]

Will you supply me 20 Greenhouses at 3% margin over your landed cost and free freight? Ill give you naming rights!!!!

posted this on another thread and just stating what I know.

Having been a tyre importer in a previous life , I can tell you the margins that were run on race tyres was kept to a minimum where possible . The bulk of the tyre stock (MX , Road etc)carried the race stuff which was a very seasonal thing sales wise , and if you weren't the top dog , you could tie up a lot of capital in slow moving stock. Remember tyre importers are in business to sell tyres for the Joe and Joanne average motorcyclist , racing is great and great for image , but I'm sure the cost to benefits still aren't that crash hot.

The fact of the matter we made sweet F**K all on road race stuff after interest and other costs. I would imagine things aren't that different today. But it was the fact that our product did well , that we got the buzz out of it , if we had been more of a business person I guess we would never have done it.

But hey thats the way things pan out I guess.

[jellywrestler]

You don't pay for them.

yep and we've got a race series with no tyres in the country

[jellywrestler]

Hate to tell you this mate...but we don't pay for our tyres until they arrive.:facepalm:

bet your importers don't have that luxury though?

[The Chow]

bet your importers don't have that luxury though?Speaking from experience you are not wrong.

[jellywrestler]

Speaking from experience you are not wrong. I have never been wrong; though I was once but turned out I wasn't!

[Crasherfromwayback]

yep and we've got a race series with no tyres in the country

Only if your original conspiracy theory came true. And if they tyres were ordered early enough...and turned up to be islamic hidden grenades...you'd have time to sort it.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I have never been wrong; though I was once but turned out I wasn't!

I thought I was wrong once but turns out I made a mistake!

[Crasherfromwayback]

bet your importers don't have that luxury though?


Speaking from experience you are not wrong.

Bet they don't either. But I also bet the importers would know their suppliers well enough to know that your scenario is highly unlikely.

Ian...did Yokohama ever do a dirty on you and unload total shit on you? In all of them I used over the years...I got one that was ever so slightly out of round (I know that in theory isn't possible). The rest...as they were supposed to be.

[slowpoke]

A post from A Stroud sometime back, GW


Some more ideas on growing the Nationals
Hi Everyone, Since it's my first post on here I hope I can get away with writting a noval.

My thoughts re, not enough bikes on the grid and some ideas that could encourage more participation in Superbikes / 600's?

etc etc

I hope you guys can help sort out any of the really practical ideas so we can put them forward asap.

Cheers,

Andrew

There's a lot to like in what Andrew wrote back then. So much of what he wrote is still absolutely on the money and deserves further discussion and active pushing.

The 3 shorter races (qualifying and 1 race on Saturday, 2 races Sunday) vs 2 longer ones on Sunday would certainly give spectators more incentive to come through the gates on a Saturday, and spectators we desperately need.

It's hard to see a negative with the championship/machine spec alignment with Oz. It seems such a waste to have an awesome proving ground on our doorstep going to waste, especially the way they keep sending young riders out into championships around the world. It's got me buggered why more young Kiwi racers don't head over there, they can even make decent coin while they are there. Some reciprocal arrangement, with class champions heading each way for say our GP or TT meeting and their way for the WSB round would be something worth working towards?

There's plenty more worth rehashing from Andrew's post but this'd end up a novel too.

Re the spec tyre discussion: I'm suprised by some of the "what if X goes wrong" type thinking.....much of it is absolutely no different to the situation we have now. Most, if not all the main contenders have tyre contracts already, what's to stop a fuck up in delivery now vs under a single supplier rule? As it stands we all put in our orders well before the end of the year saying how many tyres we think we'll be using. How is that any different under one supplier vs several? And good luck rocking up to your local tyre shop and trying to buy a set of Ntec's if you have used your allocation or aren't a sponsored rider. If you're gonna look at all the things that could possibly go wrong you'd never get off the couch let alone go racing.

I'm kinda thinking that too much emphasis is being placed on machine spec and inspection in talks regarding a more stock formula. I don't mean from from a safety point of view, I'm all for full scrutineering, especially at the more poorly prepared club level, but more at the Nationals tech/spec policing. Would it really be that big a deal if someone wants to rev a bike 750rpm over redline rather than the prescribed 500rpm? Unless folks are gonna disregard the rules entirely and go hell for leather a more stock formula would guarantee that any gains from cheater builds would be fairly minimal (without obvious cams, headwork, big compression), as opposed to the situation now where the difference in hp across the field is huuuuge.

[The Chow]

Bet they don't either. But I also bet the importers would know their suppliers well enough to know that your scenario is highly unlikely.

Ian...did Yokohama ever do a dirty on you and unload total shit on you? In all of them I used over the years...I got one that was ever so slightly out of round (I know that in theory isn't possible). The rest...as they were supposed to be.

Not the dirty they were Japanese after all and were quick to replace anything that was needed. BUT , the bank was the problem ;-) we had to pay for the stock up front by Letter of Credit , so we already outlayed the money and we were the ones out of pocket , the bank didn't give a rats arse. But anyway in the whole time the most we ever had was a tread separation problem and that was on model of Road Tyre! They replaced these but they never carried stock remember they made to order,so we had to wait three months before that shipment was replaced.

But no , but done the dirty by riders-YES. BUT , no way was everyone like that. Riders just have to remember and realise that behind all sponsorship there is generally a business , which must come first.

Just to say don't pay for them is easy to say , I can only say how it was in our day , we had already paid out before we got the product , so regardless even if you had a problem the distributor is already out of pocket before any solution is found.

[jellywrestler]

:yawn::yawn:
christ Ian no wonder you wer yawning it's not even 7 am when ya posted that!

[slowpoke]

:yawn::yawn:

Oops sorry! I forgot the MNZ axiom: riders are to be seen and not heard, and only ever speak when spoken to. Opinions? Don't be so fukn stupid, if we want 'em we'll give 'em to ya.

Oh yeah, I don't suppose the tyre business stories from decades past come in a boxed DVD set? No? Bugger.....

[The Chow]

Holy crap.......................

So someone that does make the effort to get racing and support the Nats as much as they can posts some thoughts how their view of things are, and gets "yawned" at by you Ian, then you expect a civil reponse? :facepalm:

Is no one getting enough sleep around here or something? I don't see why just talking about ideas evokes so much attitude, sure its prob all been hashed out in the past, but some ppl weren't there then....................discussion should be a good thing!!

Simple Tony , anyone that knows me knows I'm pretty easy to get on with , but the continual going over the same old stuff that has be talked about time and time again , is enough to wear anyone down. The continual I know this and that and yet when we have a riders forum like at Palmerston North a couple of years back only a select few bothered to even turn up. Discussion is good of course and yes new ideas are great , but the same over and over.... By the way I was pretty worked up about it , as you can tell and after a few hours to think about it I'm going to do a very -Un Kiwi biker thing. I apologise to slow poke for my out burst and calling him a plonker etc and yes for Yawning (But it was early morning):Oops:. But I don't take back my views.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I'm going to do a very -Un Kiwi bike thing. I apologise to slow poke for my out burst and calling him a plonker etc.

Fuck that. You'll start a trend!

[The Chow]

Fuck that. You'll start a trend! LOL Bastard look what you made me do Pete .:confused:

[codgyoleracer]

Simple Tony , anyone that knows me knows I'm pretty easy to get on with , but the continual going over the same old stuff that has be talked about time and time again , is enough to wear anyone down. The continual I know this and that and yet when we have a riders forum like at Palmerston North a couple of years back only a select few bothered to even turn up. Discussion is good of course and yes new ideas are great , but the same over and over.... By the way I was pretty worked up about it , as you can tell and after a few hours to think about it I'm going to do a very -Un Kiwi biker thing. I apologise to slow poke for my out burst and calling him a plonker etc and yes for Yawning (But it was early morning):Oops:. But I don't take back my views.


The question i suppose is why are these things re-visited over and over again? , -probably becuase some think that there may be merit in the ideas. Are any of these ideas new? - NO. Are any of the main points of this discussion really left field? - NO

The rider forum in Palmerston north was a great concept, however we were all reminded at least twice during the proceedings that none of what was being discussed was proposed for the current agenda and there was virtually no constructive response from the front desk/panel on a number reasnobly direct questions or ideas. One of the most vocal was the slightly greying asian looking chap at the back of the room without a race license :-) (but now ITS ME swaying off subject :-) )

The road race commison was another good idea (in theory) , but their mandate appeared to be written on piece of toilet paper - and thus a bunch of very good people with some pretty good ideas got flushed down the toilet.

The very existance of both the riders froum and also the road-race commision would suggest that the powers to be actually do realise that they need more rider input............. But when it comes to following through on whats suggested,then well.........

This KB forum allows one to speak one's mind and place it into public view. It is effectivley "neutral ground" , - IMO it has a part to play in the scheme of things - even if only to bounce hair-brained ideas around and maybe plant a seed or two in someones head that may have the position or skills to take it further.

The NZ Superbike series is looking like most of the riders will be back this year, and even Yamaha reckon they can maybe scratch up some funds , - but no word from Honda yet ? - This begs the question why are they finding it hard to do and how can we make it easier /more attractive for all involved. Hence the thread title and the key points within that championship.

[The Chow]

The question i suppose is why are these things re-visited over and over again? , -probably becuase some think that there may be merit in the ideas. Are any of these ideas new? - NO. Are any of the main points of this discussion really left field? - NO

The rider forum in Palmerston north was a great concept, however we were all reminded at least twice during the proceedings that none of what was being discussed was proposed for the current agenda and there was virtually no constructive response from the front desk/panel on a number reasnobly direct questions or ideas. One of the most vocal was the slightly greying asian looking chap at the back of the room without a race license :-) (but now ITS ME swaying off subject :-) )

The road race commison was another good idea (in theory) , but their mandate appeared to be written on piece of toilet paper - and thus a bunch of very good people with some pretty good ideas got flushed down the toilet.

The very existance of both the riders froum and also the road-race commision would suggest that the powers to be actually do realise that they need more rider input............. But when it comes to following through on whats suggested,then well......... Glen it has always been that way , but some of the ideas need to be thought out and then go through the correct process. Any racer can put rules and ideas forward.

This KB forum allows one to speak one's mind and place it into public view. It is effectivley "neutral ground" , - IMO it has a part to play in the scheme of things - even if only to bounce hair-brained ideas around and maybe plant a seed or two in someones head that may have the position or skills to take it further. Speak mind yes , but they are opinions only.

The NZ Superbike series is looking like most of the riders will be back this year, and even Yamaha reckon they can maybe scratch up some funds , - but no word from Honda yet ? - This begs the question why are they finding it hard to do and how can we make it easier /more attractive for all involved. Hence the thread title and the key points within that championship.

James Smith on Honda , the road race commission is still part of MNZ see MNZ website. Just the commissioner is the boss and has the final say.

[Mental Trousers]

This KB forum allows one to speak one's mind and place it into public view. It is effectivley "neutral ground" , - IMO it has a part to play in the scheme of things - even if only to bounce hair-brained ideas around and maybe plant a seed or two in someones head that may have the position or skills to take it further.

People are free to say whatever they like on this forum provided


it is not abusive
they don't display a pattern of behaviour that could be interpreted as abusive

It's easily accessible to a very wide range of people, not just racers/MNZ members etc but also people who are interested in spectating at races, people who have been thinking about getting into racing, people who just like motorbikes and many others.

Also, for those that don't wish to get directly involved (don't want to get into the daily muck raking that goes on around here for instance) they can contact me and I'll post their messages for them (unchanged and attributed to that person provided they are able to prove they are who they claim to be), for instance something along the lines of Commi's Corner (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/149770-Commi-s-Corner) or some other arrangement.

KB is well suited to airing ideas and discussing things.

[Billy]

Oops sorry! I forgot the MNZ axiom: riders are to be seen and not heard, and only ever speak when spoken to. Opinions? Don't be so fukn stupid, if we want 'em we'll give 'em to ya.



Really Spud,Don't know where on earth you picked up that load of utter claptrap,But I can tell you it wasn't from me and I am the person all your wonderful ideas come to first!!!

[Edbear]

Really Spud,Don't know where on earth you picked up that load of utter claptrap,But I can tell you it wasn't from me and I am the person all your wonderful ideas come to first!!!

If it came down to it and it was your call to make, what would you do? Someone really has to make a decision and I wonder if that is too many need to agree in order for anything to happen. Sounds somewhat like Govt. For every idea there is an opposing one and if anyone goes ahead and actually does something 100 members will criticise the decision.

Can anyone say, "We have taken everyone's views into account and this is what is going to happen."?

[Billy]

If it came down to it and it was your call to make, what would you do? Someone really has to make a decision and I wonder if that is too many need to agree in order for anything to happen. Sounds somewhat like Govt. For every idea there is an opposing one and if anyone goes ahead and actually does something 100 members will criticise the decision.

Can anyone say, "We have taken everyone's views into account and this is what is going to happen."?

As I stated earlier,None of the changes suggested on here have even been discussed by the commission at this stage,So its not really even an issue for me yet,

When I got landed with the job of roadrace commissioner,It was put too me by the board that I would be a one man commission and have total control over roadracing,I didn't think it was a job one person could or should handle so I kept the other commission members on as they have between them 120 years of experience and multiple national titles,On top of that I have another group of very experienced ex competitors/Team managers I also confer with as well as the board at MNZ and the distributors,But as you say,If I think something is going to be unworkable or create unecessary conflict i will make a decsion,IE 850 twins in Supersport earlier this year,The decision to defer that to 2014 was mine alone after listening to everybody.

[Edbear]

As I stated earlier,None of the changes suggested on here have even been discussed by the commission at this stage,So its not really even an issue for me yet,

When I got landed with the job of roadrace commissioner,It was put too me by the board that I would be a one man commission and have total control over roadracing,I didn't think it was a job one person could or should handle so I kept the other commission members on as they have between them 120 years of experience and multiple national titles,On top of that I have another group of very experienced ex competitors/Team managers I also confer with as well as the board at MNZ and the distributors,But as you say,If I think something is going to be unworkable or create unecessary conflict i will make a decsion,IE 850 twins in Supersport earlier this year,The decision to defer that to 2014 was mine alone after listening to everybody.

Good to hear. I know it is impossible to please everyone but this makes for confidence in the process.

[codgyoleracer]

Yip and its something we are already looking at for 2014 as you well know "Codgy",Most likely 600s but I have had atleast 1 top level supers competitor suggest the same for the big class as well with the backing of his distributor.


Post No3 - still sounds like a good start to me.

[codgyoleracer]

Will you supply me 20 Greenhouses at 3% margin over your landed cost and free freight? Ill give you naming rights!!!!

Yes I will.

As long as you are an organization that is industry based (I.E a garden centers group or nurserymans organization) , that plans to promote my brand within your own marketing programs.

I will require a business plan submission though.

[codgyoleracer]

James Smith on Honda , the road race commission is still part of MNZ see MNZ website. Just the commissioner is the boss and has the final say.

Cool to see Jimmy there,even it is on an old bike, but hopefully with a hotter engine?, Does that mean that theres no 2nd rider in red's team this year in supers ?, Is that due to cost structures or something else do you know ?. Craig S is hanging in there at the moment as well. (just)

When things like the three of the main dsitributers level of involvement wanes, and when the faster privateers are finding it tough to get a full budget in place - its best to take notice.

As Billy has intimated - the stock(ish) based engine has the support of some key riders and maybe even some distributers, then when you add to that a single bike rule, and a possible tyre rule of brand, tyre use cap or tyre cost cap - then you have the semblence of a good starting point to develop towards.

[Robert Taylor]

Yes I will.

As long as you are an organization that is industry based (I.E a garden centers group or nurserymans organization) , that plans to promote my brand within your own marketing programs.

I will require a business plan submission though.

At 3%, you'd be stark raving mad!

[AllanB]

In the financial climate we are in 'worldwide' why we arn't running stock bikes astounds me.

I and about three other built stock 1000's for the 2010-11 series I ended up running the last two rounds on my lonesome.

Minor mods, pipe, suspenders, piggyback plug and play ecu and a tyre rule and lets go racing :)



Agree 100%. I would think the starting grid would be full. Heck they may even need to run a couple of elimination races to get numbers down for one final deciding race.

I'd restrict suspenders to a degree too - allow only tweaking and adjusting to stock units (re-valve, shim, oil etc).

[Robert Taylor]

Agree 100%. I would think the starting grid would be full. Heck they may even need to run a couple of elimination races to get numbers down for one final deciding race.

I'd restrict suspenders to a degree too - allow only tweaking and adjusting to stock units (re-valve, shim, oil etc).

In the end event the difference( in cost ) between resprung and revalved stock units and pedigree aftermarket is not huge, and there is also great ongoing residual value with aftermarket units. After the first year or so you are actually saving money with aftermarket.

And to not put too fine a point on it some of the stock stuff is not so good for revalving, the amount of time spent to get working properly can be disproportionate. And how many tyres do you burn up in doing so?

[suzuki21]

In the end event the difference between resprung and revalved stock units and pedigree aftermarket is not huge, and there is also great ongoing residual value with aftermarket units. After the first year or so you are actually saving money with aftermarket.

And to not put too fine a point on it some of the stock stuff is not so good for revalving, the amount of time spent to get working properly can be disproportionate. And how many tyres do you burn up in doing so?

Less than some people think if they learn the following - Suspension adjustments are a waste of time if you are dealing with ignorant dorks that wont even run the correct tyre pressure for their skill level because they have read a magazine or something. Its like watching people swim and they havent filled the pool with water.

[suzuki21]

Agree 100%. I would think the starting grid would be full. Heck they may even need to run a couple of elimination races to get numbers down for one final deciding race.

I'd restrict suspenders to a degree too - allow only tweaking and adjusting to stock units (re-valve, shim, oil etc).

Dont be silly, that would be dangerous! More dangerous than even racing in the pissing rain! People dont want to save a few thousand dollars. Did you know that you could probably run 2 superstock bikes for less than 1 sbk?

[codgyoleracer]

In the end event the difference between resprung and revalved stock units and pedigree aftermarket is not huge, and there is also great ongoing residual value with aftermarket units. After the first year or so you are actually saving money with aftermarket.

And to not put too fine a point on it some of the stock stuff is not so good for revalving, the amount of time spent to get working properly can be disproportionate. And how many tyres do you burn up in doing so?

Yip, tend to agree on the rear shock change-out and fork internals open.

Not because of any sort of safety issue, - but mainly to provide easy adjustability for the average joe-blo from track to track. This sort of gear is also pretty easy to re-sell or transfer between machines + is fairlly durable as well. It also requires only limited skills to install, unlike some other modifications which require some seriously specialist skills.

[Robert Taylor]

Yip, tend to agree on the rear shock change-out and fork internals open.

Not because of any sort of safety issue, - but mainly to provide easy adjustability for the average joe-blo from track to track. This sort of gear is also pretty easy to re-sell or transfer between machines + is fairlly durable as well. It also requires only limited skills to install, unlike some other modifications which require some seriously specialist skills.

Yes, and the time to trackside revalve and bleed ( properly ) an oem shock is considerably longer than the most established pedigree aftermarket shocks, that are designed to be changed quickly.
There also arent a plethora of experienced suspension technicians at each and every track through the year. In part because we also have regular working weeks but also because its not a path to riches!
Its also much more of an equaliser.

[Robert Taylor]

Dont be silly, that would be dangerous! More dangerous than even racing in the pissing rain! People dont want to save a few thousand dollars. Did you know that you could probably run 2 superstock bikes for less than 1 sbk?

So why hasnt Superstock taken off? I think there are many reasons and not all about the cost factors, but it has a lot of merit.

[Robert Taylor]

Less than some people think if they learn the following - Suspension adjustments are a waste of time if you are dealing with ignorant dorks that wont even run the correct tyre pressure for their skill level because they have read a magazine or something. Its like watching people swim and they havent filled the pool with water.

See my edit that clarifies my explanation better. Steve, really you should be a little more charitable to those that enter the sport and are on a sharp learning curve. You could play your part in helping ( as many others do ) rather than acidic comments behind a forum name.
Yes there are always fundamentals that get overlooked, tyre pressures and tyre pressure gauges that are woefully inaccurate. Compressor tanks that are full of moisture etc. Incorrect heat cycling of tyres. Glenn Williams may have covered some of those factors in a magazine article and good on him for making the effort.

[codgyoleracer]

So why hasnt Superstock taken off? I think there are many reasons and not all about the cost factors, but it has a lot of merit.


Post #34 in this thread:

"IMO. It was a mistake to run both classes alongside each other in the first place, but I understand that there were pressures from a number of angles to run them both "side by side" under the guise that we'll let the "competitors decide"

The realistic outcome of that though - is that the competitors will / would rather continue on with whats sitting in their shed already.......... + as you say , if the stock option is presented as a "lesser prestigious class", then thats not gonna help either.

Chearly the two spec machine structure obtained the desired result for those that were batting for the Supersport side of things".

GW

[SWERVE]

Hate to tell you this mate...but we don't pay for our tyres until they arrive.:facepalm:

Neither do i.... but my supplier/distributor does.
Then there is the scenario when the container ordered in August... turns up in Nov, with a shortage.......... and thats the first anybody knows about it. Having been involved in imported goods into NZ..it is not uncommon either.
Also trouble with ordering way in advance is that you get tyres that are sometimes close on 12 months old when they arrive.... in some cases they have already been superseeded by a new design/compound. Thats another can of worms.... oh we didnt have enough of these compounds so we sent these instead..................... our paltry orders of one container arent taken seriously in the big world........ and that goes right across the spectrum of imported goods.
An example.. one of my suppliers from an international company recently attended a sales seminar in Germany.... they saw a order come in from a single company that was more than the whole of NZ sold last year.......... harsh reality.
Know the post is a bit late and has been thrashed already...but been off the grid for a few days................ hiking/tramping/holidaying......no racing<_<

[Crasherfromwayback]

Neither do i.... but my supplier/distributor does.
Then there is the scenario when the container ordered in August... turns up in Nov, with a shortage.......... and thats the first anybody knows about it. Having been involved in imported goods into NZ..it is not uncommon either.
Also trouble with ordering way in advance is that you get tyres that are sometimes close on 12 months old when they arrive.... in some cases they have already been superseeded by a new design/compound. Thats another can of worms.... oh we didnt have enough of these compounds so we sent these instead..................... our paltry orders of one container arent taken seriously in the big world........ and that goes right across the spectrum of imported goods.
An example.. one of my suppliers from an international company recently attended a sales seminar in Germany.... they saw a order come in from a single company that was more than the whole of NZ sold last year.......... harsh reality.
Know the post is a bit late and has been thrashed already...but been off the grid for a few days................ hiking/tramping/holidaying......no racing<_<

All valid points!

[SWERVE]

And is it always about trying to cut costs even further, when everyone involved should be trying to atract more money via sponsorship or by well heeled benefactors? Not so possible from product suppliers, as above. But occassionally we see well heeled benefactors come and go, but often go. Why is that? Is it because people with money who may be prepared to spend it on supporting young talent may either be put off by those in the paddock who almost openly sneer at people with large chequebooks? Or they get ''the vibes'', very quickly. Or, overall are we not as proffessional as we should be? Those factors being the case there are plenty of other sports where they may be more welcome.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree with this statement Robert

[codgyoleracer]

At 3%, you'd be stark raving mad!

No, not at all, in-fact this type of promotion is often a better return on investment than the 100% loss on some advertising options. Its a % game though, if you sell 300 items per annum, then 20 or so that go out at cost price for a "long-term campaign targeted at branding" is quite possible.

So a tyre distributer may take the same view, or of course they may not !

[slowpoke]

As Billy has intimated - the stock(ish) based engine has the support of some key riders and maybe even some distributers, then when you add to that a single bike rule, and a possible tyre rule of brand, tyre use cap or tyre cost cap - then you have the semblence of a good starting point to develop towards.

One big problem that occurred to me regarding a single tyre supplier: you rule out a large number of club competitors dipping a toe in the water at the occasional Championship round. For example, I get some much appreciated assistance from Motomart/Nationwide Accessories who give me a great price on Pirelli's. It's in the form of a contract where I am unable (and unwilling, Pirelli's rock!) to run a competitors tyre. Many club competitors are in the same boat so unless you are already on brand X you are snookered.

[codgyoleracer]

One big problem that occurred to me regarding a single tyre supplier: you rule out a large number of club competitors dipping a toe in the water at the occasional Championship round. For example, I get some much appreciated assistance from Motomart/Nationwide Accessories who give me a great price on Pirelli's. It's in the form of a contract where I am unable (and unwilling, Pirelli's rock!) to run a competitors tyre. Many club competitors are in the same boat so unless you are already on brand X you are snookered.


Yip - there are always going to be pro's and cons to any rule of specification put in place. Its just balancing out whats best for the sport at the time, aye

The question of whats " best for the sport" as pointed outto me over this past weekend when talking to a very experienced racer is that its an ever moving target, and an example might be, if times were booming , bike sales were at an all time high and the public profile of motorcycle racing in NZ was up there with the aussie V8's- then full blown WSBK superbikes for the superbike class would be making a lot of sense for "the good of the sport as a whole", as they are bloody awesome!

My argument is that there is a lot of levels that these bikes can run at, and to fit into the current scene in NZ i suspect its leaning towards a slightly lower performance spec that gives more opportunties to compete to a wider range of competitors.

Lets face it, even if you only added two bikes to the field - thats a 10% or more increase in numbers.......

GW

[Robert Taylor]

Yip - there are always going to be pro's and cons to any rule of specification put in place. Its just balancing out whats best for the sport at the time, aye

The question of whats " best for the sport" as pointed outto me over this past weekend when talking to a very experienced racer is that its an ever moving target, and an example might be, if times were booming , bike sales were at an all time high and the public profile of motorcycle racing in NZ was up there with the aussie V8's- then full blown WSBK superbikes for the superbike class would be making a lot of sense for "the good of the sport as a whole", as they are bloody awesome!

My argument is that there is a lot of levels that these bikes can run at, and to fit into the current scene in NZ i suspect its leaning towards a slightly lower performance spec that gives more opportunties to compete to a wider range of competitors.

Lets face it, even if you only added two bikes to the field - thats a 10% or more increase in numbers.......

GW

There were only about 18 bikes on the MotoGP grid last night and that is world stage. So the numbers we put up per head of population are pretty impressive, and also given our broken economies.
With respect to tyres Im not so convinced that a one tyre rule is suitable and Spud raised some good points on that score. As for ''loss leading'' ( close to what you are in effect saying ) that can only work with huge volume and guaranteed returns. That we dont have and it would take a long time to recover the real costs. Notwithstanding another factor that happens, selling off of secondhand race tyres ( in fairness it gives the racers some revenue back ) But that significantly hurts normal retail sales. The brutal interpretation is ''subsidisation of racing'' for those in that small bubble but what in fact is the real return? In cold hard commercial returns its actually pretty dubious and for a disproprtionate amount of hassle. Merv touched on the joys of importing and lead times etc.
This is not intended to be negative as such but this is how suppliers will weigh it all up. But Im prepared to be wrong.
Tyres are indeed the biggest headache.

[codgyoleracer]

There were only about 18 bikes on the MotoGP grid last night and that is world stage. So the numbers we put up per head of population are pretty impressive, and also given our broken economies.
With respect to tyres Im not so convinced that a one tyre rule is suitable and Spud raised some good points on that score. As for ''loss leading'' ( close to what you are in effect saying ) that can only work with huge volume and guaranteed returns. That we dont have and it would take a long time to recover the real costs. Notwithstanding another factor that happens, selling off of secondhand race tyres ( in fairness it gives the racers some revenue back ) But that significantly hurts normal retail sales. The brutal interpretation is ''subsidisation of racing'' for those in that small bubble but what in fact is the real return? In cold hard commercial returns its actually pretty dubious and for a disproprtionate amount of hassle. Merv touched on the joys of importing and lead times etc.
This is not intended to be negative as such but this is how suppliers will weigh it all up. But Im prepared to be wrong.
Tyres are indeed the biggest headache.


18 Moto GP bikes ?, Really ? - You sure that some of em wern't those dumbed down versions ?

[Robert Taylor]

18 Moto GP bikes ?, Really ? - You sure that some of em wern't those dumbed down versions ?

Only as a term of relativity, yes. But there are various levels of ''dumbing down'', as you will well realise.

[RobGassit]

CRT bikes are not even remotely MOTOGP bikes in my humble opinion, and Colin Edwards agrees with me too! The field includes the Hyosung Cup as well.:facepalm:

[Billy]

CRT bikes are not even remotely MOTOGP bikes in my humble opinion, and Colin Edwards agrees with me too! The field includes the Hyosung Cup as well.:facepalm:

With or without sidestand brackets?????:wings::wings:

[codgyoleracer]

CRT bikes are not even remotely MOTOGP bikes in my humble opinion, and Colin Edwards agrees with me too! The field includes the Hyosung Cup as well.:facepalm:

Agreed, they are not in the same class. Ironically thats a bit like a Superstock bike playing in Superbikes/Supersport fields, If you aint got the numbers then run em together to save some face.........