Are the boys at BSB with their "stock" superbikes onto something?

[codgyoleracer]

British Superbikes are leaning even further toward the stock is best route, which already has stringent control over engine and electronic mods allowed, and includes a standard tyre rule.

Does the old adage - "what wins on Sunday sells on Monday" work anymore ?, and is this the reason behind it - Or is it about having more affordable bikes out there + maybe the "stock" bikes more likey to be more closely matched ? - and therefore a better racing spectacle.

When the cost to build / run a competitve superbike in NZ is 100K + it does start you thinking ........

http://www.britishsuperbike.com/news/archive/2011/aug/msvr-announce-new-british-superbike-championship-technical-regulations.aspx


http://www.visordown.com/discount-racing-encyclopedia/do-wsb-bikes-need-fake-headlights/20949.html

[Crasherfromwayback]

I've been saying for years that I think we should go back to a class like senior proddie. Noisy pipes only.

[Billy]

British Superbikes are leaning even further toward the stock is best route, which already has stringent control over engine and electronic mods allowed, and includes a standard tyre rule.

Does the old adage - "what wins on Sunday sells on Monday" work anymore ?, and is this the reason behind it - Or is it about having more affordable bikes out there + maybe the "stock" bikes more likey to be more closely matched ? - and therefore a better racing spectacle.

When the cost to build / run a competitve superbike in NZ is 100K + it does start you thinking ........

http://www.britishsuperbike.com/news/archive/2011/aug/msvr-announce-new-british-superbike-championship-technical-regulations.aspx


http://www.visordown.com/discount-racing-encyclopedia/do-wsb-bikes-need-fake-headlights/20949.html


I've been saying for years that I think we should go back to a class like senior proddie. Noisy pipes only.

Yip and its something we are already looking at for 2014 as you well know "Codgy",Most likely 600s but I have had atleast 1 top level supers competitor suggest the same for the big class as well with the backing of his distributor.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yip and its something we are already looking at for 2014 as you well know "Codgy",Most likely 600s but I have had atleast 1 top level supers competitor suggest the same for the big class as well with the backing of his distributor.

Yeah my days of eating tar are well over. But if I ws a young chap looking to get into it with the big boys...I could justify senior proddie well before a 100k superbike! And lets face it...they're pretty fucking awesome in stock trim anyhow!

[codgyoleracer]

Yeah my days of eating tar are well over. But if I ws a young chap looking to get into it with the big boys...I could justify senior proddie well before a 100k superbike! And lets face it...they're pretty fucking awesome in stock trim anyhow!

True aye - they are all stoopid fast anyway. Of course there is nothing to stop MNZ carrying on using the plagiarised "Superbike" name anyway.
The issues revolve's around what brands of bike are more competitve when in stock "ish" form. For instance - the concern by some is that we will end up with a field of BMW S1000RR's running around...... :-)

[codgyoleracer]

Yip and its something we are already looking at for 2014 as you well know "Codgy",Most likely 600s but I have had atleast 1 top level supers competitor suggest the same for the big class as well with the backing of his distributor.

Good to hear that there is some interest.
Your suggestion that "I know anything whatsoever about what, who or when" and when any type of proposed changes will / could / might / maybe / possibly / mooted or made within that heirachy is folly.

No one knows , except for one person.

[codgyoleracer]

On a positive note of course, the field for this years Superbikes still looks pretty good, but the question is - would it be any different if the bikes were closer to stock ?

[Tony.OK]

True aye - they are all stoopid fast anyway. Of course there is nothing to stop MNZ carrying on using the plagiarised "Superbike" name anyway.
The issues revolve's around what brands of bike are more competitve when in stock "ish" form. For instance - the concern by some is that we will end up with a field of BMW S1000RR's running around...... :-)

You'd think that of the BMW aye but look at the 1000cc superstock results around the world and they aren't winning everywhere.

Been watching BSB for a few years now and for spectating I think its the best series to watch with massive fields and close racing. All classes seem to be near capacity. Whatever "model" they are using they run a good show. Now if NZ only had an extra 10 or 20 million ppl we may get close haha.

[Crasherfromwayback]

True aye - they are all stoopid fast anyway. Of course there is nothing to stop MNZ carrying on using the plagiarised "Superbike" name anyway.
The issues revolve's around what brands of bike are more competitve when in stock "ish" form. For instance - the concern by some is that we will end up with a field of BMW S1000RR's running around...... :-)

Yep. And the other brands will catch up soon enough. Besides...if you're good enough...you'll win on anything.

[Maido]

Yep. And the other brands will catch up soon enough. Besides...if you're good enough...you'll win on anything.

haha, tell that to rossi

[Crasherfromwayback]

haha, tell that to rossi

Yeah bit different at that level I guess!

[Kevin G]

British Superbikes are leaning even further toward the stock is best route, which already has stringent control over engine and electronic mods allowed, and includes a standard tyre rule.

Does the old adage - "what wins on Sunday sells on Monday" work anymore ?, and is this the reason behind it - Or is it about having more affordable bikes out there + maybe the "stock" bikes more likey to be more closely matched ? - and therefore a better racing spectacle.

When the cost to build / run a competitve superbike in NZ is 100K + it does start you thinking ........

http://www.britishsuperbike.com/news/archive/2011/aug/msvr-announce-new-british-superbike-championship-technical-regulations.aspx


http://www.visordown.com/discount-racing-encyclopedia/do-wsb-bikes-need-fake-headlights/20949.html

Hi.
Stock really....
Summary of modifications

Retaining the standard piston and valves to control tuning excesses, only the following modifications to be allowed.

Camshafts with free profile, increased duration and lift.
Valve springs, seats and their retainers (maintaining original materials)
Porting of the inlet and exhaust ports with epoxy fillers allowed if necessary.
Machining of the cylinder head gasket surface to adjust compression.
Re machining of combustion chambers, but no material to be added.
Rev limit 750prm above standard, set by spec ECU - standard level determined by street product on official dyno.
Aftermarket connecting rods of the same or greater weight than the original. Material to be either as homologated or steel. Centre to centre length to be standard.
Crankshaft can be re balanced, but only by the original method.
An aftermarket gearbox with a single set of gear ratios nominated for the season. Design concept to be the same as the homologated item.
10. Oil sumps and pumps can be modified to improve reliability.
Pistons and valves remain standard. Maintaining the standard piston crown design is a critical part of limiting the tuning possibilities, together with mandated use of a series specified ECU and a rev limit.

I do not see that as very stock, I actually think that the above spec would cost more than NZ spec....Just looked at the price for a close ratio gearbox..I do like the std ECU idea, has merit for sure.

[Kiwi Graham]

In the financial climate we are in 'worldwide' why we arn't running stock bikes astounds me.

I and about three other built stock 1000's for the 2010-11 series I ended up running the last two rounds on my lonesome.

Minor mods, pipe, suspenders, piggyback plug and play ecu and a tyre rule and lets go racing :)

[codgyoleracer]

Hi.
Stock really....
Summary of modifications

Retaining the standard piston and valves to control tuning excesses, only the following modifications to be allowed.

Camshafts with free profile, increased duration and lift.
Valve springs, seats and their retainers (maintaining original materials)
Porting of the inlet and exhaust ports with epoxy fillers allowed if necessary.
Machining of the cylinder head gasket surface to adjust compression.
Re machining of combustion chambers, but no material to be added.
Rev limit 750prm above standard, set by spec ECU - standard level determined by street product on official dyno.
Aftermarket connecting rods of the same or greater weight than the original. Material to be either as homologated or steel. Centre to centre length to be standard.
Crankshaft can be re balanced, but only by the original method.
An aftermarket gearbox with a single set of gear ratios nominated for the season. Design concept to be the same as the homologated item.
10. Oil sumps and pumps can be modified to improve reliability.
Pistons and valves remain standard. Maintaining the standard piston crown design is a critical part of limiting the tuning possibilities, together with mandated use of a series specified ECU and a rev limit.

I do not see that as very stock, I actually think that the above spec would cost more than NZ spec....Just looked at the price for a close ratio gearbox..I do like the std ECU idea, has merit for sure.


Yeah I know, but this spec compared to previous was quite a step forward for that series, which beforhand had BSB bikes built to near WSB levels. (its relative)

[SWERVE]

A Thread which makes soooo much sense........... sure someone will spoil it soon enough
Gets my vote.

[Billy]

Minor mods, pipe, suspenders, piggyback plug and play ecu and a tyre rule and lets go racing :)

Bingo!!!! Thats exactly the plan,Now all we've got to do is guide it through the system that Codgy seems to think involves only one person ?????? In my dreams haha!

[Crasherfromwayback]

Bingo!!!! Thats exactly the plan,Now all we've got to do is guide it through the system that Codgy seems to think involves only one person ?????? In my dreams haha!

Sort it out Billy!:innocent:

[wharfy]

True aye - they are all stoopid fast anyway. Of course there is nothing to stop MNZ carrying on using the plagiarised "Superbike" name anyway.
The issues revolve's around what brands of bike are more competitve when in stock "ish" form. For instance - the concern by some is that we will end up with a field of BMW S1000RR's running around...... :-)

I wouldn't mind watching that !!
I guess if I was a dealer/importer of another brand I might have a different view though :)

[codgyoleracer]

Bingo!!!! Thats exactly the plan,Now all we've got to do is guide it through the system that Codgy seems to think involves only one person ?????? In my dreams haha!

Do you reaaaaaly want to go there Billy .......... ? :-)

[codgyoleracer]

I wouldn't mind watching that !!
I guess if I was a dealer/importer of another brand I might have a different view though :)

Yeah, they would all likey have a different view for sure, and it is simpler just to accept that "your gonna piss someone off by proceeding along that line"

Billy's pretty thick skinned though...........

[Billy]

Do you reaaaaaly want to go there Billy .......... ? :-)

Hahahahahahaha!! Go where ever you like old china,What have I got to lose,My highly paid executive position?????

[Billy]

Sort it out Billy!:innocent:

Mate,I'm feeling more and more like a 1 armed paperhanger standing in front of the Christchurch cathedral with a rubber hammer if you get my drift.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Mate,I'm feeling more and more like a 1 armed paperhanger standing in front of the Christchurch cathedral with a rubber hammer if you get my drift.

lol. I hear ya mate.

[CHOPPA]

My bike has suspension and an exhaust and its competitive.

Ask any superbike rider the major crippling cost is the tyres.

[Tony.OK]

My bike has suspension and an exhaust and its competitive.

Ask any superbike rider the major crippling cost is the tyres.

Shinko control tyres FTW :2thumbsup

[Crasherfromwayback]

Shinko control tyres FTW :2thumbsup

With 60PSI front and rear.

[Kiwi Graham]

Ask any superbike rider the major crippling cost is the tyres.

Not if you know where to get them from mate :whistle:

p.s Are 'we' still running Pirelli next season?

[CHOPPA]

Not if you know where to get them from mate :whistle:

p.s Are 'we' still running Pirelli next season?

haha yes we are mate!

[wharfy]

Ask any superbike rider the major crippling cost is the tyres.

And for 600's as well -- Um I probably have CRASH repairs high on the list (at least once for skimping on tyres :( )

[Billy]

My bike has suspension and an exhaust and its competitive.

Ask any superbike rider the major crippling cost is the tyres.

Without a doubt,But then you know what they say,If it's got tits or tyres,Its gonna cost you money.

The point being,If we take the cost of engine modifications out of the equation,Then youve got more $$$$ to spend on tyres and testing.

Or option B, we bring in a new rule that states you can only run the machine on the brand and size/profile tyer it is sold with from new,Would certainly lessen the tyre bill,Not so sure about the crash damage though LOL

[RobGassit]

Superstock sounds awesome in 600 and 1000 guise. As for BMW domination, Suzuki have had a fair turn at it haven't they?
As for tyre costs, how about a bulk buy that the small teams can piggyback onto as well?

[Kevin G]

OK If it is the way to go why did we only see 2x 1000cc machines enter for the championship as pointed out earlier?
600cc there were 4 bikes that did the nationals last year (all rounds)
If this is the future and the way forward why are the majority building supersport and superbike spec machines....I no understand.
If the stock format had taken off you could have seen supersport and superbike as we know them fading out this year and stock been the premier classes.

All the actions so far suggest that the majority that can afford to race 1000 and 600 cc machines at a National level would sooner race a modified bike....or is it that the stock rules are seen as a lesser class and they do not want to be seen riding a lesser bike?

Just asking....

[codgyoleracer]

Without a doubt,But then you know what they say,If it's got tits or tyres,Its gonna cost you money.

The point being,If we take the cost of engine modifications out of the equation,Then youve got more $$$$ to spend on tyres and testing.

Or option B, we bring in a new rule that states you can only run the machine on the brand and size/profile tyer it is sold with from new,Would certainly lessen the tyre bill,Not so sure about the crash damage though LOL

Yip outside of the bike build tyres is the next biggie, & as control tyres are very unlikey to happen anytime in the near future in NZ, the only other thing a governing body can do is as Billy says is dictate a tyre type as original or set a total amount allowed per machine per event.

[codgyoleracer]

OK If it is the way to go why did we only see 2x 1000cc machines enter for the championship as pointed out earlier?
600cc there were 4 bikes that did the nationals last year (all rounds)
If this is the future and the way forward why are the majority building supersport and superbike spec machines....I no understand.
If the stock format had taken off you could have seen supersport and superbike as we know them fading out this year and stock been the premier classes.

All the actions so far suggest that the majority that can afford to race 1000 and 600 cc machines at a National level would sooner race a modified bike....or is it that the stock rules are seen as a lesser class and they do not want to be seen riding a lesser bike?

Just asking....

IMO. It was a mistake to run both classes alongside each other in the first place, but I understand that there were pressures from a number of angles to run them both "side by side" under the guise that we'll let the "competitors decide"

The realistic outcome of that though - is that the competitors will / would rather continue on with whats sitting in their shed already.......... + as you say , if the stock option is presented as a "lesser prestigious class", then thats not gonna help either.

Chearly the two spec machine structure obtained the desired result for those that were batting for the Supesport side of things.

[Tony.OK]

OK If it is the way to go why did we only see 2x 1000cc machines enter for the championship as pointed out earlier?
600cc there were 4 bikes that did the nationals last year (all rounds)
If this is the future and the way forward why are the majority building supersport and superbike spec machines....I no understand.
If the stock format had taken off you could have seen supersport and superbike as we know them fading out this year and stock been the premier classes.

All the actions so far suggest that the majority that can afford to race 1000 and 600 cc machines at a National level would sooner race a modified bike....or is it that the stock rules are seen as a lesser class and they do not want to be seen riding a lesser bike?

Just asking....

How many new entries are coming in on "used race bikes"?
I built a new 1000cc stock machine for that class and it cost more than buying an ex top level bike, completely fooked up my finances though (my own fault) and it all turned to shit when the recession knocked work back.

[Maido]

I think it you just did away with "super" full stop and forced the masses into having only a "stock" class then there would be no choice but to enter. I don't think you can run both as already pointed out.
I can see the benefit of running only stock classes, however I don't like the idea as it basically suits the newest bike out. I hate to say it but the more you can do the closer the bikes are in spec (sure it costs more). In the last 2 years in 600's you have had 4 different manufacturers on the podium. Prior to the big rule changes it was only ever 2 really.
Also, tyre size and brand would be very hard to do as most brands only run a dot approved race tyre 180/60/17 for the 600's, the 180/55 std size is yesterdays news.
I am not against it, just saying it is hard. And Chop is correct, tyres are the major cost. I have had my current race bike since 2008 (and I will be racing it this season too), it is still reasonably quick in comparison with the other 600's. Divide the original build costs by 4-5 years and it isn't as expensive as you think (minus the tyres of course).

[CHOPPA]

I like the idea of stock. It would suit me and my bike down to the ground. Problem is that it would actually shrink the field. No one new would actually come to superbike because there have been so many ex factory bikes for as cheap as shit that dont sell.

Suzuki is probably the biggest driving force behind racing in NZ. This year they will have about 1/3 of the superbike field riding their bikes. If we made the rule stock then none of those bikes would be legal and they are not gonna be paying for Andrew or Robbie to be battling for the minor places. The only way I could see it working is if Suzuki have a new latest and greatest model due out just before the rule change is made

[Billy]

I like the idea of stock. It would suit me and my bike down to the ground. Problem is that it would actually shrink the field. No one new would actually come to superbike because there have been so many ex factory bikes for as cheap as shit that dont sell.

Suzuki is probably the biggest driving force behind racing in NZ. This year they will have about 1/3 of the superbike field riding their bikes. If we made the rule stock then none of those bikes would be legal and they are not gonna be paying for Andrew or Robbie to be battling for the minor places. The only way I could see it working is if Suzuki have a new latest and greatest model due out just before the rule change is made

Well thats odd,Seeing as Stroudy was one of the competitors to approach me with the idea.

[Mental Trousers]

The top teams usually build a new bike each season (although not always). Everyone else keeps improving what they've got, which is often one of the former top bikes in the field.

So moving from Superbike to Stock would mean the entire field buying new machinery. Then, to stay competitive, each year they have to either purchase that years model or purchase the upgraded bits.

That's the big problem with stocker rules.

[mossy1200]

Logic says a brand has more value if what it sells in the shop wins.
If you cant make the top stock bike you need invest in the best rider to make your bike place better.

Thats good for the riders. I think so. Spend the money on a rider rather than a bike that isnt sold to the public.

Even further than that if you dont have a Stroud etc what do you do. You sign a future prospect on a 3 year deal at a smaller price and develop them to be the winners of the seasons coming knowing your cost is now only a factory bike plus pipe and tires and a fixed rider fee rather than 3 times 100k bike.

[CHOPPA]

Well thats odd,Seeing as Stroudy was one of the competitors to approach me with the idea.

I dont think Stoudy signs the cheques at Suzuki though. If Tom was all over it then id be convinced. Without his support I dont think we would have much of a class

Like I say I think it would be a good move but unless Suzuki and Honda etc have a new bike on the horizon they are not going to support the ruling because the current rules provide parity between the brands.

[CHOPPA]

Well thats odd,Seeing as Stroudy was one of the competitors to approach me with the idea.

You should challenge Andrew to ride a 'stock' bike this year. I will run the same spec

[worm13]

ego trip much??

[CHOPPA]

ego trip much??

How would you get that when im suggesting I need a better bike to be able to beat him??

Do people have to speak really slowly to you normally?

[Billy]

I dont think Stoudy signs the cheques at Suzuki though. If Tom was all over it then id be convinced. Without his support I dont think we would have much of a class

Like I say I think it would be a good move but unless Suzuki and Honda etc have a new bike on the horizon they are not going to support the ruling because the current rules provide parity between the brands.

Yerr,Not going to go to far into it,But the conversation started with,Tom and I were talking and we wondered.......

[CHOPPA]

Yerr,Not going to go to far into it,But the conversation started with,Tom and I were talking and we wondered.......

Well that really is good news, if you have the support of the manufacturers then it could be a go

[worm13]

How would you get that when im suggesting I need a better bike to be able to beat him??

Do people have to speak really slowly to you normally?

maybe that should have been the same approch to you a couple of weekends ago.... :brick::brick:

[CHOPPA]

maybe that should have been the same approch to you a couple of weekends ago.... :brick::brick:

Is that the best you could come up with?

That.....answer's.....my.....question....

[worm13]

Is that the best you could come up with?

That.....answer's.....my.....question....

thought id better keep it basic for you just in case you got confused.... as that seems to be something you do easily....shall i go on??

[CHOPPA]

thought id better keep it basic for you just in case you got confused.... as that seems to be something you do easily....shall i go on??

Thats better!

[The Chow]

Why would we want to change things when we had an increase in Superbike grids in NZ since the current rule was introduced . It beggers belief that contemplate killing/changinga class that is successful , yet keep a class like Pro Twins which has been stagnant since the first year after it was introduced. We gave people a chance to have stock and they didn't go there. The idea was that bikes could be used for more than one year , so the cost of investment would stretched over several seasons , riders could build a bike and improve it year on year , with out having to purchase or in the distributors case minimise the number they would give out new every year. The argument of cost is that if you need to have lastest stock bike every season then it will be more expensive overall. To prove the theory while Bugden and Stroud may have a new bike this year , John Ross and Dennis Charlett will also now be out there on last years machines , both Suzuki's and as I understand so will be the Honda's , so the field is kept stronger. On the subject of cost cutting I agree with some areas , but back to stock I'm not. This year you can use aftermarket discs and Radiators as I understand it. I understand the oem discs are silly money and aftermarket much cheaper , as for the Radiators I'm not sure (thats probably because of my lack of knowledge there).

Cheers
Ian Dawson
MNZ Road Race Co-ordinator 2013

[Grumph]

The first rule for a motorsport in an economic recession is "don't obsolete what you've got"...

If you do want to go to a stock formula you've got to give a long lead time in order for the current machinery to reach the end of their use cycle. When replacements are required, that's when you change formula.
I reckon about 3 years from this season.

And no, I personally don't agree with it as "stock" leads to more arguments than wide open regs.

[Robert Taylor]

In the financial climate we are in 'worldwide' why we arn't running stock bikes astounds me.

I and about three other built stock 1000's for the 2010-11 series I ended up running the last two rounds on my lonesome.

Minor mods, pipe, suspenders, piggyback plug and play ecu and a tyre rule and lets go racing :)

Yes and Superstock 600 is hardly a runaway success......Look at the size of the Supersport 600 field in comparison.

It looks like the most expensive class ( Superbike ) is one of the very best subscribed, go figure. Per head of population we do extremely well with the number of Superbikes we put on the grid, go figure.

But yes there is merit in what you say but all tyre manufacturers should be allowed to compete.

I think there has to be care taken in not dumbing things down too much as for the engineers it becomes a nightmare. For example irrespective of what you put inside them modern production Superbike forks are ridiculously light and flimsy. If you compare to a true Superbike racing fork i.e works level Showa and Ohlins there is a LOT more metal in strategic areas so that the bloody things dont flex too much, bind and cause chatter. The amount of deflection that occurs with oem forks is ridiculous. Moreover they distort very easily as has been found out when combining with aftermarket handlebar clamps that arent round when they are done up, causing fork bind at near to full closed position. Im not advocating that aftermarket thoroughbred fork sets should be made legal, Im just highlighting that if you dumb down the rules too far setup issues become a real nightmare.

ELECTRONICS. We actually need more of and when we have models like the ZX10 with sophisticated electronics ( and doubtless more makes and models to follow ) its then kind of bizarre that you could liberate the use of those electronics on the road ( or for trackdays ) but there might be some cavemen that say ''you cannot race with that" Electronics play more and more of a part in our everyday lives, why should it be any different with motorcycles?

We have electronic ignition and have had for years, Im old enough to remember contact breaker points, they sucked

We have electronic fuel injection which you can remap with a laptop and interface. Thats what the modern generation understands. Carrying around needles and jets for flatslide carbs and pulling them out and then apart to reset was a tedious operation that most sane people would not go back to

More electronic controls is in most cases a partial or whole substitute for what we did with mechanical controls, its called progress. In spite of this the talented riders will still be at the top of the tree, apples for apples.

No intent here for people to indignantly reply, there just has to be a balance and at present given the size of the fields I believe its not too far off the mark.

[The Chow]

Also Glen , how many season's have you and Terry run those SV's , why would you want a class where you would have to purchase the lastest and greatest every year just to stay half competive we had that in good times , but not in the new world . I'm all for cost cutting or re-alignment in some form and in the long run it doesn't effect me anyway as I long past my use by date for racing. But then the experts on here all know better . It wouldn't be KB would it :yes:

[codgyoleracer]

Why would we want to change things when we had an increase in Superbike grids in NZ since the current rule was introduced . It beggers belief that contemplate killing/changinga class that is successful , yet keep a class like Pro Twins which has been stagnant since the first year after it was introduced. We gave people a chance to have stock and they didn't go there. The idea was that bikes could be used for more than one year , so the cost of investment would stretched over several seasons , riders could build a bike and improve it year on year , with out having to purchase or in the distributors case minimise the number they would give out new every year. The argument of cost is that if you need to have lastest stock bike every season then it will be more expensive overall. To prove the theory while Bugden and Stroud may have a new bike this year , John Ross and Dennis Charlett will also now be out there on last years machines , both Suzuki's and as I understand so will be the Honda's , so the field is kept stronger. On the subject of cost cutting I agree with some areas , but back to stock I'm not. This year you can use aftermarket discs and Radiators as I understand it. I understand the oem discs are silly money and aftermarket much cheaper , as for the Radiators I'm not sure (thats probably because of my lack of knowledge there).

Cheers
Ian Dawson
MNZ Road Race Co-ordinator 2013


Why would we want to change the rules?, We' re not, the topic was how BSB have headed that way and after watching the racing the mix of bikes at the front and the mix of riders challenging Its a "re-freshing" spectacle

Protwin ? - whats that got to do with this thread........ NOTHING

Re purchasing the latest stock bike ?, Quite right why in heavens name would any distributer want to see even more bikes sold into this totally saturated market...........

Aftermarket discs ? , OEM off Ebay 2011 GSXR1000 $220 - $340 per set. OEM radiator for same $350 - $425........ , Can someone post a price for kit ceramic coated discs or kit radiators...........

GW
General nobody
2013 :-)

[codgyoleracer]

Also Glen , how many season's have you and Terry run those SV's , why would you want a class where you would have to purchase the lastest and greatest every year just to stay half competive we had that in good times , but not in the new world . I'm all for cost cutting or re-alignment in some form and in the long run it doesn't effect me anyway as I long past my use by date for racing. But then the experts on here all know better . It wouldn't be KB would it :yes:


Mr Dawson
Should i have wanted to maintain the "investment" in my F3 bike (sorry superlite) that i was placing into my superbike, then i would quielty suggest you wouldnt have seen which way the 650 commuter bike went. On top of that , if i got someone who could actually ride it proper fast, it would have been an even larger gap.
KB is indeed full of experts, but i find it interesting how this site allows all sorts of folks to speak their mind and get their personal message out in public to more than just a small group of backslapping drinking mates

[The Chow]

Why would we want to change the rules?, We' re not, the topic was how BSB have headed that way and after watching the racing the mix of bikes at the front and the mix of riders challenging Its a "re-freshing" spectacle

Protwin ? - whats that got to do with this thread........ NOTHING

Re purchasing the latest stock bike ?, Quite right why in heavens name would any distributer want to see even more bikes sold into this totally saturated market...........

Aftermarket discs ? , OEM off Ebay 2011 GSXR1000 $220 - $340 per set. OEM radiator for same $350 - $425........ , Can someone psot a price for kit ceramic coated discs or kit radiators...........

GW
General nobody
2013 :-)

Sport bikes are not selling for the Japs . BMW and Ducati yes , but take a look around the world . Racing does not sell bikes anymore, it use to many moons ago , but it is good for image and marketing , you should know that Glen ;-). You are correct this thread wasn't about NZ , but then you asked a question "are they on to something". My answer "probably yes , but we are talking coming down from WSBK spec machines after all. In NZ , well you know what I think now. See you all again at a race track , hope this season is a good one. Thanks for my once yearly rant on to KB.

[Robert Taylor]

Why would we want to change the rules?, We' re not, the topic was how BSB have headed that way and after watching the racing the mix of bikes at the front and the mix of riders challenging Its a "re-freshing" spectacle

Protwin ? - whats that got to do with this thread........ NOTHING

Re purchasing the latest stock bike ?, Quite right why in heavens name would any distributer want to see even more bikes sold into this totally saturated market...........

Aftermarket discs ? , OEM off Ebay 2011 GSXR1000 $220 - $340 per set. OEM radiator for same $350 - $425........ , Can someone psot a price for kit ceramic coated discs or kit radiators...........

GW
General nobody
2013 :-)

If the aftermarket discs get purchased locally thereby supporting a NZ business and its employees then that would be a real positive.

I will be in the market for a glasshouse when I build a new house. Glenn, I will be making a point of buying it off you because you are a local NZ business employing locals, also because of the business you have done with me over the years.

[codgyoleracer]

The first rule for a motorsport in an economic recession is "don't obsolete what you've got"...

If you do want to go to a stock formula you've got to give a long lead time in order for the current machinery to reach the end of their use cycle. When replacements are required, that's when you change formula.
I reckon about 3 years from this season.

And no, I personally don't agree with it as "stock" leads to more arguments than wide open regs.


Good post, - however solid regs and proper technical checks have been wanting for a very long time, but Billy has a cunning plan !

[The Chow]

If the aftermarket discs get purchased locally thereby supporting a NZ business and its employees then that would be a real positive.

I will be in the market for a glasshouse when I build a new house. Glenn, I will be making a point of buying it off you because you are a local NZ business employing locals, also because of the business you have done with me over the years.

Robert you hit that on the head. Scratch my back etc and by that I mean pay for stuff and be loyal , it goes a long way. Pity many don't have that anymore.

[codgyoleracer]

If the aftermarket discs get purchased locally thereby supporting a NZ business and its employees then that would be a real positive.

I will be in the market for a glasshouse when I build a new house. Glenn, I will be making a point of buying it off you because you are a local NZ business employing locals, also because of the business you have done with me over the years.

Robertt
And thank you for the excellent servcing on my 1198sp forks.
Unless the discs are made in NZ, there is a huge problem with that argument.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Why would we want to change things when we had an increase in Superbike grids in NZ since the current rule was introduced . It beggers belief that contemplate killing/changinga class that is successful


The first rule for a motorsport in an economic recession is "don't obsolete what you've got"...

If you do want to go to a stock formula you've got to give a long lead time in order for the current machinery to reach the end of their use cycle. .

Valid points obviously. I think Grumph has hit it on the head though. Lead time.

[bones1999]

"We have electronic fuel injection which you can remap with a laptop and interface. Thats what the modern generation understands. Carrying around needles and jets for flatslide carbs and pulling them out and then apart to reset was a tedious operation that most sane people would not go back to"

Carefull

[Robert Taylor]

Robertt
And thank you for the excellent servcing on my 1198sp forks.
Unless the discs are made in NZ, there is a huge problem with that argument.

I think its reasonably simple. Many of your products are not made in NZ ( as is the case with mine ) But your business and mine provide a proper backup infrastructure that PROPERLY supports the product and provides our NZ employees with a living. Moreover, our manufacturing principals expect us to provide such a service for our appointed territories. No picking the eyes out of product with no backup committment. Thats my old fashioned sentiment but Im jolly well sticking to it!

Anyway back on topic, unless there is something that Ive overlooked hasnt BSB effectively morphed somewhat closer to our NZSBK?

[The Chow]

Good post, - however solid regs and proper technical checks have been wanting for a very long time, but Billy has a cunning plan !

Just to clarify something , before I get told off by Billy :-). I am MNZ Road Race Co-ordinator , which assists the clubs running the nationals and also the commissioner . I have absolutely no power when it comes to rules . the opinions I expressed are my opinions and not MNZ's or commissioner. Glen you have known me now for many years and your Bro longer , I agree that constructive argument with odd jab now and then doesn't hurt it got to be good surely to have open debate. Fuck their I go I forgot I was on KB for a mo.... :facepalm:

[Robert Taylor]

"We have electronic fuel injection which you can remap with a laptop and interface. Thats what the modern generation understands. Carrying around needles and jets for flatslide carbs and pulling them out and then apart to reset was a tedious operation that most sane people would not go back to"

Carefull

Im not having anything to do with your mixing bowls.....

[CHOPPA]

Ill be getting my after market discs from overseas. I support the local markets that support us. By that I mean if the product is in stock in NZ ill buy it from NZ. If they have to order the product themselves then im not going to pay extra to wait longer for the product

[codgyoleracer]

Just to clarify something , before I get told off by Billy :-). I am MNZ Road Race Co-ordinator , which assists the clubs running the nationals and also the commissioner . I have absolutely no power when it comes to rules . the opinions I expressed are my opinions and not MNZ's or commissioner. Glen you have known me now for many years and your Bro longer , I agree that constructive argument with odd jab now and then doesn't hurt it got to be good surely to have open debate. Fuck their I go I forgot I was on KB for a mo.... :facepalm:

:laugh::killingme

[macclan]

"We have electronic fuel injection which you can remap with a laptop and interface. Thats what the modern generation understands. Carrying around needles and jets for flatslide carbs and pulling them out and then apart to reset was a tedious operation that most sane people would not go back to"

Carefull

hahahaha nothing wrong with that tedious operation

[Mental Trousers]

British Superbikes are leaning even further toward the stock is best route, which already has stringent control over engine and electronic mods allowed, and includes a standard tyre rule.

Does the old adage - "what wins on Sunday sells on Monday" work anymore ?, and is this the reason behind it - Or is it about having more affordable bikes out there + maybe the "stock" bikes more likey to be more closely matched ? - and therefore a better racing spectacle.

When the cost to build / run a competitve superbike in NZ is 100K + it does start you thinking ........

http://www.britishsuperbike.com/news/archive/2011/aug/msvr-announce-new-british-superbike-championship-technical-regulations.aspx


http://www.visordown.com/discount-racing-encyclopedia/do-wsb-bikes-need-fake-headlights/20949.html

I like this thread even if it has gone a bit off topic.

The thing with BSB is they have numbers and teams with money. They could afford to have the majority of the paddock go out and buy new bikes because that's what they were doing every year anyway. The likes of Padgett's, Tyco Suzuki, Swann Yamaha etc build new bikes each season. The major difference for them is that now they don't have to do as much once they've bought the bikes.

[codgyoleracer]

I like this thread even if it has gone a bit off topic.

The thing with BSB is they have numbers and teams with money. They could afford to have the majority of the paddock go out and buy new bikes because that's what they were doing every year anyway. The likes of Padgett's, Tyco Suzuki, Swann Yamaha etc build new bikes each season. The major difference for them is that now they don't have to do as much once they've bought the bikes.

Yes I KNOW

Theres an elephant hiding in the corner.......

It can cost quite a lot of dosh to build a "stock" bike engine . And dependant on the brand its sometimes almost a much as a "kit" one.........

Its such a bastard knowing the realities of things !

I still think that there is a lesson to be learned from BSB and applied here though.

[Robert Taylor]

I like this thread even if it has gone a bit off topic.

The thing with BSB is they have numbers and teams with money. They could afford to have the majority of the paddock go out and buy new bikes because that's what they were doing every year anyway. The likes of Padgett's, Tyco Suzuki, Swann Yamaha etc build new bikes each season. The major difference for them is that now they don't have to do as much once they've bought the bikes.

Your last sentence may be debatable Shayne! Within the tighter rules they may have to spend more tedious time with careful attention to detail to make the stock stuff work half acceptably and have a decent service life. Or simply have to keep throwing more ''inferior'' and lower life expectancy parts at the bikes during the season. I believe the reality wont all be a bed of roses, especially for the engineers.

[codgyoleracer]

hahahaha nothing wrong with that tedious operation

Oi, keep ya grubby Castol R mitts, outa my clean green 4 stroke thread. Your things are about as stock as the two smoking barrells.....

[Mental Trousers]

Yes I KNOW

Theres an elephant hiding in the corner.......

It can cost quite a lot of dosh to build a "stock" bike engine . And dependant on the brand its sometimes almost a much as a "kit" one.........

Its such a bastard knowing the realities of things !

I still think that there is a lesson to be learned from BSB and applied here though.

Yeah there is - know your teams/racers, what they can do and use a set of rules that suit. That's what I have indirectly said (very indirectly sorry), their rules suit the teams/racers that make up their competition and the economic environment they are part of.

[macclan]

Oi, keep ya grubby Castol R mitts, outa my clean green 4 stroke thread. Your things are about as stock as the two smoking barrells.....

can i not build a 2stoke superbike thats legal then
:eek5:

[Mental Trousers]

Your last sentence may be debatable Shayne! Within the tighter rules they may have to spend more tedious time with careful attention to detail to make the stock stuff work half acceptably and have a decent service life. Or simply have to keep throwing more ''inferior'' and lower life expectancy parts at the bikes during the season. I believe the reality wont all be a bed of roses, especially for the engineers.

yeah I know mate. When the rules bring things closer to stock it's all about optimizing what you've got so that you're not losing out. But it also shortens the life of the stock stuff dramatically when you're wringing everything you can out of it.

[codgyoleracer]

can i not build a 2stoke superbike thats legal then
:eek5:

You already have.... :-)

[scott411]

Good post, - however solid regs and proper technical checks have been wanting for a very long time, but Billy has a cunning plan !

i am sure with the new extra charge for a national liceince, that they will bring their technical checks up to the standard of other motorsport's in NZ,

[steveyb]

I realise it is not BSB racing, nor 'Superbike' racing as such.
When living in the UK in 2005/06 I took the opportunity to attend the Phase One Racing endurance race team open day and team member drive at their HQ in Somerset.
Aside from winning the rear wheel changing race, the take home message for me was around the engines.
In the old days the team manager and engine builder said that they would do alot of work to the engines (ZXR750, GSXR750's) which took time and money.
However, when they switched to Yamaha R1 he quickly discovered that if he tried doing stuff to the engines he would lose HP and reliability for endurance racing. So all he did was strip the engines, clean and de-bur them, blueprint and reassemble. I am sure he said that he didn't even need to balance them.
But of course for sprint racing there is plenty that can be done.

Just an observation, maybe a propos of nothing much.

Told youse, scrap all these big bikes and go 125GP/Moto3 racing.

[Shorty_925]

Yip and its something we are already looking at for 2014 as you well know "Codgy",Most likely 600s but I have had atleast 1 top level supers competitor suggest the same for the big class as well with the backing of his distributor.

Thats good news. Is the thinking, is by keeping costs down, this should in theory attract more to a class? As Choppa said, tyres are the largest expenses, limiting the number of tyres a rider can use per event would be a good start. Limiting what could be done to a bike and the amount of tyres per meeting is what attracted myself to 650 Pro Twin.

[Shaun]

yeah I know mate. When the rules bring things closer to stock it's all about optimizing what you've got so that you're not losing out. But it also shortens the life of the stock stuff dramatically when you're wringing everything you can out of it.



A STD non modified engine will last heaps longer than a tuned one dude

[slowpoke]

"Change only occurs when the pain of staying as you are is greater than the pain of making the change" .....or summat like that.

Sounds about right for this argument, eh? BSB was definitely in some serious pain trying to maintain WSB spec bikes in this economic climate. It's not just about cost either, I reckon there's an argument to be made for a much improved viewing spectacle. Gimme laps with sideways, one wheeled action and I couldn't give a rats if it's a second or two slower than a gyro/GPS controlled slotcar-like bike, and there are plenty of folks who feel the same.

NZ is a lil' different but it's easier to keep the bag closed than let the cats loose and have to try and herd 'em in again later. Do we really want to see engineers staring each other down with laptops at 10paces in the NZSBK paddock? As it is we've got BMW's and hopefully Duc's with pretty farkin' sophisticated TC/anti-wheelie/launch control/data acquisition that WSB bikes would have loved just a few years ago....vs a shitty add-on Bazzaz (or similar) unit cobbled onto the Suzuki's/Honda's/Yamaha's. That will surely soon change with new models, which sounds good in theory, but it's just going to be the start of a whole new arms race in the pits.

NZ isn't in quite the same pain as the UK, and making the whole paddock make wholesale changes is a tricky business. But I reckon it's well worth/discussing.

What do the riders/sponsors/manufacturers actually participating in the championship now think?, they are the ones doing the hard yards each season. Are they happy to keep spending up large to even up the bikes or would they prefer a cheaper, less sophisticated option that may mean greater disparity? Does the price of entry building/buying a competitive bike actually put people off entering? Or is it just another case of Arsenal supporters (I'm gunner...I'm gunner...) spruiking things up then rummaging around in the "convenient excuses" drawer when push comes to shove? The whole Superstock thing was a pretty disappointing exercise.

Good thread GeeDubya!

[Mental Trousers]

A STD non modified engine will last heaps longer than a tuned one dude

Yeah I realize that mate. I was meaning those that squeeze every little bit out of the standard engines chew through the stock bits a lot quicker. They're the ones who spend crap loads of hours on the dyno, match and balance everything, optimize the hell out of the entire bike etc.

[Grumph]

A STD non modified engine will last heaps longer than a tuned one dude

And away we go....Shaun, mate, define "stock" and "non modified".....

We both know that a motor built properly from scratch using OE factory bits (call them stock if you like) but with non standard clearances and tighter tolerances will both develop more power than when it came out of the factory door, and last longer too...

Tony Scott in the UK has been quoted as saying most of his race motors ended up back on the road and still healthy.
He's the prime example of fanatical blueprinting but there are others around.

Locally I did a CBR600 way back which blew TZ's away for 5 or 6 seasons then went back on the road....it's not hard, but it does take time which people are reluctant to pay for...and if you're going into it that deep, may as well do some serious upgrades too.

I've been involved in stripdowns when we had proddy classes....interesting viewing. But when you do find something blatantly illegal and the rider appeals using backing from a distributor who says the illegality "wouldn't have made a difference"....what can you do.

[Kiwi Graham]

I realise it is not BSB racing, nor 'Superbike' racing as such.
When living in the UK in 2005/06 I took the opportunity to attend the Phase One Racing endurance race team open day and team member drive at their HQ in Somerset.
Aside from winning the rear wheel changing race, the take home message for me was around the engines.
In the old days the team manager and engine builder said that they would do alot of work to the engines (ZXR750, GSXR750's) which took time and money.
However, when they switched to Yamaha R1 he quickly discovered that if he tried doing stuff to the engines he would lose HP and reliability for endurance racing. So all he did was strip the engines, clean and de-bur them, blueprint and reassemble. I am sure he said that he didn't even need to balance them.
But of course for sprint racing there is plenty that can be done.

Just an observation, maybe a propos of nothing much.

Told youse, scrap all these big bikes and go 125GP/Moto3 racing.


I worked with Phase one in the Kawasaki (world champion :yes:) days and can tell you Russell spent hours blue printing motors for the race bike but the qualifying bike had all the kit stuff in and cost an absolute fortune. The two motors side by side were poles apart in bulid costs and maintenance costs. Yes blue printing is time consuming but the end result is a reliable as well as powerful motor that will long outlast a kit motor and a shit load cheaper to put together.

As with alot of privateer manufacturer supported teams all we were given were two bikes, clutches, pistons and rods. The rest we had to buy. If back then we could all have run on a cheaper, level plaing field the money saved would have been enormous. As has been stated several times the tyre budget (Dunlops back then) was huge and carted a horse float full of them around Europe every other weekend, wets, slicks and intermediates of all compounds. I would have hated having to write the cheques he did.

[Kevin G]

Ill be getting my after market discs from overseas. I support the local markets that support us. By that I mean if the product is in stock in NZ ill buy it from NZ. If they have to order the product themselves then im not going to pay extra to wait longer for the product

The problem with this statement is that if this is the common opinion then pretty soon all the rest of the NZ wholesalers will walk away from supporting the sport. It is complete and utter bollocks to have an expectation that the NZ importers will have everything on the shelf just waiting for some super star racer like you to come along who wants to pay nothing for it.... absolutely laughable...You say support those that support you...yet you will buy from overseas to save a few bucks.
Do you honestly expect importers to have fairings exhausts, rotors, and everything else you may or may not desire on the shelf and then sell it to you at next to cost...DREAMER!
The NZ road race champs used to get support from most if not all the major wholesalers, now we have 1 to 2 at best and the reason is because the racers do not support them...they buy from overseas because its a few dollars cheaper.

I know some things are significantly cheaper overseas and my rant does not apply to all.

Kevin Goddard

[discodan]

I have always supported the idea of only running Supertock 600 and Superstock 1000 classes and have voiced that many times before so this idea gets my vote.

A couple of points that I don't think have been raised yet though...


It's worth mentioning that a race bike can sometimes be put back on the road and sold as a newish model road bike to help pay for the latest model for next season.
I think this has been mentioned but it becomes more important to check that bikes are within the regulations when the rules about mods are tighter so this would have to be considered.

Also, there is very little prestige in the the stock classes at the moment because they just get lost amongst the faster bikes. After my first super stock 600 race, even I didn't know if I had won the race or not let alone any of the spectators.

[Kevin G]

The reason why we dont buy anything from your is for one the man that pays the bills things your an absolute wanker. I told him you cant help that, you just have short mans syndrome.

Secondly your service is shit, you advertise fairings in a picture but the kit doesnt include what is in the picture. You dont respond to emails. You dont hold stock for the most popular latest superbike. Your delivery time was like 8 weeks when I can get them in 2 weeks and much cheaper. I have put several sales your way and I get comments from you like this?

Thanks Chop, I was generalizing about the issue not in any way referring to what I do or do not do. One thing is for sure I am short and some may say a little over weight but I have done more to support the sport than you ever have, of course without you we would not have our sport (I read this in another of your reputation building posts).
I stand by my comments, if the general trend is to buy offshore then the industry will walk away from the sport. I do not mean me either I mean the big boys (main stream importers)
I am sorry that you have found my service to be "shit" That is certainly not what I try to achieve.
Good luck.

[CHOPPA]

Thanks Chop, I was generalizing about the issue not in any way referring to what I do or do not do. One thing is for sure I am short and some may say a little over weight but I have done more to support the sport than you ever have, of course without you we would not have our sport (I read this in another of your reputation building posts).
I stand by my comments, if the general trend is to buy offshore then the industry will walk away from the sport. I do not mean me either I mean the big boys (main stream importers)
I am sorry that you have found my service to be "shit" That is certainly not what I try to achieve.
Good luck.

You were not generalizing you were being a wanker and you know it.

I do so much for the sport, way more than you bla bla bla I have heard it all before. Not sure what that has to do with it. Everybody does there bit, some more some less.

[RobGassit]

The smell of burning bridges on here is almost overwhelming.

[codgyoleracer]

I have always supported the idea of only running Supertock 600 and Superstock 1000 classes and have voiced that many times before so this idea gets my vote.

A couple of points that I don't think have been raised yet though...


It's worth mentioning that a race bike can sometimes be put back on the road and sold as a newish model road bike to help pay for the latest model for next season.
I think this has been mentioned but it becomes more important to check that bikes are within the regulations when the rules about mods are tighter so this would have to be considered.

Also, there is very little prestige in the the stock classes at the moment because they just get lost amongst the faster bikes. After my first super stock 600 race, even I didn't know if I had won the race or not let alone any of the spectators.


Dan
+ 1 on the facts re the replacement of bike costs, and of course model series of machines tend to run now for 3 years - so it is quite common to transfer things like fairings, levers, bars, pegs, electronics, exhausts and even suspension on occasions from one model to another.

Re the technical rules comment, Billy appears to be onto it - and for sure, anything akin to a "stockish" class requires strict checks.

[worm13]

The smell of burning bridges on here is almost overwhelming.

oh good so wasnt just me then

[codgyoleracer]

You were not generalizing you were being a wanker and you know it.

I do so much for the sport, way more than you bla bla bla I have heard it all before. Not sure what that has to do with it. Everybody does there bit, some more some less.

Oi, stop hijacking the thread chop :girlfight:, & get back to talking up your slow as shit stock bike.........

[Tony.OK]

http://youtu.be/5DmYLrxR0Y8


............:innocent:

[CHOPPA]

The smell of burning bridges on here is almost overwhelming.

If I have to burn bridges to stand up for myself so be it. Just because you like to bend over and take it in the ass it doesnt mean we all have to


Dan
+ 1 on the facts re the replacement of bike costs, and of course model series of machines tend to run now for 3 years - so it is quite common to transfer things like fairings, levers, bars, pegs, electronics, exhausts and even suspension on occasions from one model to another.

Re the technical rules comment, Billy appears to be onto it - and for sure, anything akin to a "stockish" class requires strict checks.

Sorry Glen, try to stay on topic but it seems I cant make a comment without it being an ego trip that someone has to try and beat me down for...


oh good so wasnt just me then

What is your name?

[worm13]

Jono Wagener MNZ #4323 (on hold due to injury)

[Kevin G]

You were not generalizing you were being a wanker and you know it.

I do so much for the sport, way more than you bla bla bla I have heard it all before. Not sure what that has to do with it. Everybody does there bit, some more some less.

Sorry fact is that it was a generalisation, I can see on re-reading what I wrote how you may have thought it was directed at you personally, this was not the intention. Believe it or not its not all about you....

[SWERVE]

A Thread which makes soooo much sense........... sure someone will spoil it soon enough
Gets my vote.
See i was correct.... turns into a slanging match/shitfight........ KB never fails to deliver:facepalm:

[Billy]

See i was correct.... turns into a slanging match/shitfight........ KB never fails to deliver:facepalm:

Exactly and thats why we will PROBABLY never have a forum on the MNZ website.

[Mental Trousers]

See i was correct.... turns into a slanging match/shitfight........ KB never fails to deliver:facepalm:

Exactly and thats why we will PROBABLY never have a forum on the MNZ website.

Doesn't need to be that way. KB threads turn into shit fights because those of us that run the place reckon everyone has a right to say whatever they like.

For a site like MNZ everything would need to be Moderated, but the Moderators would have to be independent, ie not part of MNZ staff or hold a race licence etc.

[Crasherfromwayback]

.

For a site like MNZ everything would need to be Moderated, but the Moderators would have to be independent, ie not part of MNZ staff or hold a race licence etc.

I'd sort it.:innocent:

[RobGassit]

If I have to burn bridges to stand up for myself so be it. Just because you like to bend over and take it in the ass it doesnt mean we all have to



Sorry Glen, try to stay on topic but it seems I cant make a comment without it being an ego trip that someone has to try and beat me down for...



What is your name?

Choppa needs a hug.

[RobGassit]

Smokes too thick, can't breath,,,gotta go outside and get some air...

[CHOPPA]

Choppa needs a hug.

Its bloody expensive to get a hug by the hour these days

[Deano]

Also Glen , how many season's have you and Terry run those SV's , why would you want a class where you would have to purchase the lastest and greatest every year just to stay half competive we had that in good times , but not in the new world . I'm all for cost cutting or re-alignment in some form and in the long run it doesn't effect me anyway as I long past my use by date for racing. But then the experts on here all know better . It wouldn't be KB would it :yes:

I'm no expert and things are probably different in the high performance world of 600's and 1000's, but I don't believe that a 2012 SV650 is any better performance wise than a 2003 model.

Having chased Sarah on an old 99 model, there was sweet f.a. between our bikes in staright line speed in any case.

I've heard from one experienced SV racer that the 06 is the best to have, others have told me the 03 is the best......

[Deano]

Thats good news. Is the thinking, is by keeping costs down, this should in theory attract more to a class? As Choppa said, tyres are the largest expenses, limiting the number of tyres a rider can use per event would be a good start. Limiting what could be done to a bike and the amount of tyres per meeting is what attracted myself to 650 Pro Twin.

That's why I went down the pro twin path - it's affordable for me.

On the topic of technical checks - it would be great to have a HP limit and dyno the top three bikes at each meeting, as I understand they do in the UK.

That would sort out anyone 'bending' the rules.

[mossy1200]

Idd rather watch bikes I could buy race.
Idd rather the riders were payed and if you couldnt afford a Stroud etc you should invest in a 3 year deal with a new rider instead rather than 100k on a bike.
Fairings, can, fork internals and rear aftermarket suspension as per what avaliable to public only sounds good.

[RobGassit]

That's why I went down the pro twin path - it's affordable for me.

On the topic of technical checks - it would be great to have a HP limit and dyno the top three bikes at each meeting, as I understand they do in the UK.

That would sort out anyone 'bending' the rules.

It certainly is affordable. We put fuel in the tank and used Nick and Dans old Pirellis. It ran like a tractor all season. Swerve will tell you it has a pill in the tank, but the ol 99 chugged around all day long. It just needed a little love.

[SWERVE]

Its bloody expensive to get a hug by the hour these days

Dial 0800 me hug you long time $50.......

[Billy]

It certainly is affordable. We put fuel in the tank and used Nick and Dans old Pirellis. It ran like a tractor all season. Swerve will tell you it has a pill in the tank, but the ol 99 chugged around all day long. It just needed a little love.

If memory serves me correctly,That bike still holds the Pro twin lap record at Manfeild,Somewhere around the high 1.13s I thought.

[slowpoke]

Exactly and thats why we will PROBABLY never have a forum on the MNZ website.

Nah, any discussion is better than no discussion, Billy. Lose the nom de plumes and anonymity and all of a sudden most folks find their manners again.....I did say "most" didn't I?

C'mon on down from that complimentary MNZ penthouse suite and roll in the muck with the rest of us mate! I dunno if you did it as kid but I remember standing with bare feet (shoes were for "going out", not every day wear) in warm cow pats on cold mornings....KB inspires much the same feelings of disgust vs a peculiar warmth.

[Billy]

Nah, any discussion is better than no discussion, Billy. Lose the nom de plumes and anonymity and all of a sudden most folks find their manners again.....I did say "most" didn't I?

C'mon on down from that complimentary MNZ penthouse suite and roll in the muck with the rest of us mate! I dunno if you did it as kid but I remember standing with bare feet (shoes were for "going out", not every day wear) in warm cow pats on cold mornings....KB inspires much the same feelings of disgust vs a peculiar warmth.

Hahahahahaha!Penthouse suite,Not likely to find me in one of them.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Hahahahahaha!Penthouse suite,Not likely to find me in one of them.

How 'bout with your knob buried in a penthouse magazine then?

[Billy]

How 'bout with your knob buried in a penthouse magazine then?

Now your talking,Anyways I didnt mean any penthouse I meant an MNZ one

[Crasherfromwayback]

Now your talking,Anyways I didnt mean any penthouse I meant an MNZ one

My bad. I have this bad mental image now. An MNZ Penthouse.

[Shaun]

The problem with this statement is that if this is the common opinion then pretty soon all the rest of the NZ wholesalers will walk away from supporting the sport. It is complete and utter bollocks to have an expectation that the NZ importers will have everything on the shelf just waiting for some super star racer like you to come along who wants to pay nothing for it.... absolutely laughable...You say support those that support you...yet you will buy from overseas to save a few bucks.
Do you honestly expect importers to have fairings exhausts, rotors, and everything else you may or may not desire on the shelf and then sell it to you at next to cost...DREAMER!
The NZ road race champs used to get support from most if not all the major wholesalers, now we have 1 to 2 at best and the reason is because the racers do not support them...they buy from overseas because its a few dollars cheaper.

I know some things are significantly cheaper overseas and my rant does not apply to all.



Dont be such a wanker. If you could borrow money from an over seas invester at a lower interest rates than you would pay through a NZ BUISNESS EMPLOYING KIWIS, you fukin well would!!!!!!!

[Shaun]

If I have to burn bridges to stand up for myself so be it.




Like ya style:Punk:

[suzuki21]

I have always supported the idea of only running Supertock 600 and Superstock 1000 classes and have voiced that many times before so this idea gets my vote.

A couple of points that I don't think have been raised yet though...


It's worth mentioning that a race bike can sometimes be put back on the road and sold as a newish model road bike to help pay for the latest model for next season.
I think this has been mentioned but it becomes more important to check that bikes are within the regulations when the rules about mods are tighter so this would have to be considered.

Also, there is very little prestige in the the stock classes at the moment because they just get lost amongst the faster bikes. After my first super stock 600 race, even I didn't know if I had won the race or not let alone any of the spectators.

Good point. Also only the people paying the bills should have a say in class rules not the ones sending them. And the top 5 in SBK or 600's would still be top 5 if on superstock bikes. MNZ should harden up and say "these are the rules for 2014 onwards" end of story. People with there own personal agendas will have to suck it up. Aaron Slight was all for the idea of Superstock since the std bikes are so good now days - but what would he know.

[suzuki21]

If I have to burn bridges to stand up for myself so be it.




Like ya style:Punk:

Not so good if you are standing on the bridge though.

[codgyoleracer]

Good point. Also only the people paying the bills should have a say in class rules not the ones sending them. And the top 5 in SBK or 600's would still be top 5 if on superstock bikes. MNZ should harden up and say "these are the rules for 2014 onwards" end of story. People with there own personal agendas will have to suck it up. Aaron Slight was all for the idea of Superstock since the std bikes are so good now days - but what would he know.

Point 1, I Agree, And through my rose coloured glasses - It would we great if all those involved in the sport and running it were willing to listen and be supportive of any sensibly based, constructive ideas that are good for the sport as a whole. The veil of listening is there - But the outcomes are driven by many matters outside of what some might argue are not in the interests of the members. (although Billy is a fresh of breath air communication-wise)

Point 2, I am yet to have it sufficiently explained to me the reasoning behind running two standalone classes in little-ole NZ for the two premier classes. I personally have no agenda for asking for that explanation. I do understand "why" it happened - but i cant get a grip on the reasoning behind it.

Point 3, Agree on the top 5 finishers most likely not really changing much irrespective of the steed spec they are on (except maybe the order they finish in) Especially if (god forbid) a control tyre was introduced, which is the single most important cost control issue related to our sport.

One hassle with the concept is as J Holmes pointed out, - some brands within some model years will suffer if they are released in a more "road-spec" form of tune. This isnt neccesarily a problem for the competitor, but it appears to be a pretty big one for the distributer of said brand if/when they are affected. (please note my reference here is NOT brand specific as this could affect any brand)
But on that note, and with me being a medium sized business owner of many years, i can fully understand the distributer of a product being a little unsettled about their patrticular product being placed in that situation - However that is where point No1 comes into play.

(excuse the spelling) GW

[Maido]

Point in question, I was reading the other day that the new middle weight kawasaki will go back to the 636 cc rating, this means that they will more than likely release a rocket ship 600RR model just as they have done previously. No doubt this will be picked up for racing very quickly (the last one had some pretty aggressive race cams in it and was bloody quick), this probably isn't fair against the other "stock" brands. I suppose the counter argument is that it is a special edition which you aren't allowed to race, but that would exclude a manufacturer.

[codgyoleracer]

Point in question, I was reading the other day that the new middle weight kawasaki will go back to the 636 cc rating, this means that they will more than likely release a rocket ship 600RR model just as they have done previously. No doubt this will be picked up for racing very quickly (the last one had some pretty aggressive race cams in it and was bloody quick), this probably isn't fair against the other "stock" brands. I suppose the counter argument is that it is a special edition which you aren't allowed to race, but that would exclude a manufacturer.

Jeremy

By the kwaka RR, paint it in Southland Honda colours, plaster Honda all over it, go win a championship. (very few ppl will care whats under the clothes)

[Maido]

haha I like your style!

[The Chow]

Point 1, I Agree, And through my rose coloured glasses - It would we great if all those involved in the sport and running it were willing to listen and be supportive of any sensibly based, constructive ideas that are good for the sport as a whole. The veil of listening is there - But the outcomes are driven by many matters outside of what some might argue are not in the interests of the members. (although Billy is a fresh of breath air communication-wise)

Point 2, I am yet to have it sufficiently explained to me the reasoning behind running two standalone classes in little-ole NZ for the two premier classes. I personally have no agenda for asking for that explanation. I do understand "why" it happened - but i cant get a grip on the reasoning behind it.

Point 3, Agree on the top 5 finishers most likely not really changing much irrespective of the steed spec they are on (except maybe the order they finish in) Especially if (god forbid) a control tyre was introduced, which is the single most important cost control issue related to our sport.

One hassle with the concept is as J Holmes pointed out, - some brands within some model years will suffer if they are released in a more "road-spec" form of tune. This isnt neccesarily a problem for the competitor, but it appears to be a pretty big one for the distributer of said brand if/when they are affected. (please note my reference here is NOT brand specific as this could affect any brand)
But on that note, and with me being a medium sized business owner of many years, i can fully understand the distributer of a product being a little unsettled about their patrticular product being placed in that situation - However that is where point No1 comes into play.

(excuse the spelling) GW

People do listen Glen believe it or not , thats how we ended up with the two classes. The punters were saying we want cheaper cheaper racing , so rather than start a class where we would have a race with two bikes or one bike in it. It was decided to run them within the other classes , and which ever way the racers went as far as bike choice/spec then that would be the way to go and if fell over at least we had a class that was left un-affected. Well it worked didn't it? 1000cc didn't even get off the start line and 600's got two years. I'm big enough to admit I was wrong in supporting the change in 600 supersport , but at least we tried something! In reflection I now think there was nothing really wrong with original 600 Sports Proddie rules ,but at the time riders and people paying bills for that class were bitching about the costs. You just can't win. Oh and by the way , the superstock classes are still current , so there is still a chance to get the stock formula's going. The problem with having a position trying to help the sport is you get shit from the riders/supporters and then shit from the other side , it is an no win situation. If anyone out there wants to have a go , call Billy I'm sure he will be happy to have you help. Me I'm still here and not going anywhere , I just love motorcycles period , thats why i do it.

Cheers

[Kiwi Graham]

Point in question, I was reading the other day that the new middle weight kawasaki will go back to the 636 cc rating, this means that they will more than likely release a rocket ship 600RR model just as they have done previously. No doubt this will be picked up for racing very quickly (the last one had some pretty aggressive race cams in it and was bloody quick), this probably isn't fair against the other "stock" brands. I suppose the counter argument is that it is a special edition which you aren't allowed to race, but that would exclude a manufacturer.

Ahh yes but 'back in the day' manufacturers used to cover this issue with homologation specials such as the Honda RC 30-45, Kawasaki 750RR, Suzuki TL1000R & GSX750SP, Yamaha OWO1 etc they all did it so they met the superbike regs and could go racing.

[M1Motorsport]

The Team, Management and Sponsors of M1 Motorsport Limited wish to advise that any comments expressed by Choppa on this forum are his own personal views and are not the views or opinions expressed or held by M1 Motorsport Limited.

Moggy

[codgyoleracer]

People do listen Glen believe it or not , thats how we ended up with the two classes. The punters were saying we want cheaper cheaper racing , so rather than start a class where we would have a race with two bikes or one bike in it. It was decided to run them within the other classes , and which everway the racers went as far as bike choice/spec then that would be the way to go and if fell over at least we had a class that was left un-effected. Well it worked didn't it? 1000cc didn't even get off the start line and 600's got two years. I'm big enough to admit I was wrong in supporting the change in 600 supersport , but at least we tried something! In reflection I now think there was nothing really wrong with original 600 Sports Proddie rules ,but at the time riders and people paying bills for that class were bitching about the costs. You just can't win. Oh and by the way , the superstock classes are still current , so there is still a chance to get the stock formula's going. The problem with having a position trying to help the sport is you get shit from the riders/supporters and then shit from the other side , it is an no win situation. If anyone out there wants to have a go , call Billy I'm sure he will be happy to have you help. Me I'm still here and not going anywhere , I just love motorcycles period , thats why i do it.

Cheers

Hey if Billy is the fresh breath, - does that make you the bad breath ? :-)
Yip , I am in the same boat 'Motorcycles rock, and racing them rocks even better" , Still a worthwhile discussion though aye Ian.

[The Chow]

:Playnice::beer::2thumbsup fucken right brother the best sport in the universe.

[Crasherfromwayback]

:Playnice::beer::2thumbsup fucken right brother the best sport in the universe.

Till ya bounce on your head and end up eating hospital food. Then it sucks arse.

[RobGassit]

The Team, Management and Sponsors of M1 Motorsport Limited wish to advise that any comments expressed by Sloan Frost on this forum are his own personal views and are not the views or opinions expressed or held by M1 Motorsport Limited.

Moggy

Who's Sloan Frost?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Who's Sloan Frost?

The one getting his botty smacked.

[The Chow]

Till ya bounce on your head and end up eating hospital food. Then it sucks arse.
Yeah mate , know what you saying . But the sponge baths are great :shit:

[Robert Taylor]

People do listen Glen believe it or not , thats how we ended up with the two classes. The punters were saying we want cheaper cheaper racing , so rather than start a class where we would have a race with two bikes or one bike in it. It was decided to run them within the other classes , and which everway the racers went as far as bike choice/spec then that would be the way to go and if fell over at least we had a class that was left un-effected. Well it worked didn't it? 1000cc didn't even get off the start line and 600's got two years. I'm big enough to admit I was wrong in supporting the change in 600 supersport , but at least we tried something! In reflection I now think there was nothing really wrong with original 600 Sports Proddie rules ,but at the time riders and people paying bills for that class were bitching about the costs. You just can't win. Oh and by the way , the superstock classes are still current , so there is still a chance to get the stock formula's going. The problem with having a position trying to help the sport is you get shit from the riders/supporters and then shit from the other side , it is an no win situation. If anyone out there wants to have a go , call Billy I'm sure he will be happy to have you help. Me I'm still here and not going anywhere , I just love motorcycles period , thats why i do it.

Cheers

Well summarised Ian. Its always a challenge to keep everything as affordable as possible but the ''line in the sand'' mustnt be moved so far that it creates real issues ( such as more crashing )............ because of the simple expedient of satisfying those that have unrealistic expectations of just how affordable it should be. If youve got a beer income but a champagne taste then really you should just be drinking beer. Or in other terms if you cannot truly afford to go 600 or 1000cc racing at a realistic and safe level, then you should choose a lesser formula.
Thats in no way intended to be callous in outlook, its simple economics. But anyway, as Ian said there wasnt much wrong with the old 600 sports production rules.

[budda]

People do listen Glen believe it or not , thats how we ended up with the two classes. The punters were saying we want cheaper cheaper racing , so rather than start a class where we would have a race with two bikes or one bike in it. It was decided to run them within the other classes , and which ever way the racers went as far as bike choice/spec then that would be the way to go and if fell over at least we had a class that was left un-affected. Well it worked didn't it? 1000cc didn't even get off the start line and 600's got two years. I'm big enough to admit I was wrong in supporting the change in 600 supersport , but at least we tried something! In reflection I now think there was nothing really wrong with original 600 Sports Proddie rules ,but at the time riders and people paying bills for that class were bitching about the costs. You just can't win. Oh and by the way , the superstock classes are still current , so there is still a chance to get the stock formula's going. The problem with having a position trying to help the sport is you get shit from the riders/supporters and then shit from the other side , it is an no win situation. If anyone out there wants to have a go , call Billy I'm sure he will be happy to have you help. Me I'm still here and not going anywhere , I just love motorcycles period , thats why i do it.

Cheers

The Most Rev Dr Mr Dawson is correct, the Commission members at the time made the decision to at least investigate how the Riders really felt by letting them vote with their feet, and without dis-enfranchising either side of the discussion.
And the ensuing seasons entry list illustrated their wishes at the time .........

The lightly modded stock proposition is a good one, but has a couple of fishooks in there that have been discussed over the last couple of years ( yes, we've been talking about this for at least that long - this is NOT a new overnight brainwave )

Billy is doing a great job of taking the idea further down the track, just dont take any perceived lack of progress as inactivity on his part

[Shaun]

RE TYRE USAGE

Check out www.formula-xtreme.com.au/ and look at rules for the 600 class

I think they are great rules helping keep costs down and as the race/practice/qualify milage is very simmilar, it may be a good thing for back home in SBK and 600z

The brand quality we have to use is SHIT though USA Ntec SUCK and the sizing is ridiculous, 125 front and 200 rear on 600z

[The Chow]

The Most Rev Dr Mr Dawson is correct, the Commission members at the time made the decision to at least investigate how the Riders really felt by letting them vote with their feet, and without dis-enfranchising either side of the discussion.
And the ensuing seasons entry list illustrated their wishes at the time .........

The lightly modded stock proposition is a good one, but has a couple of fishooks in there that have been discussed over the last couple of years ( yes, we've been talking about this for at least that long - this is NOT a new overnight brainwave )

Billy is doing a great job of taking the idea further down the track, just dont take any perceived lack of progress as inactivity on his part

Oh I miss those days Oh Great One ,:cry: NOT! -LOL

[Shaun]

Not so good if you are standing on the bridge though.



what goes up must come down

[slowpoke]

The Most Rev Dr Mr Dawson is correct, the Commission members at the time made the decision investigate how the Riders really felt by letting them vote with their feet, and without dis-enfranchising either side of the discussion.
And the ensuing seasons entry list illustrated their wishes at the time .........



Yeah, nah....I don't think it's quite that simple. It was a leap into the unknown for the established racers and not knowing the numbers/kudos involved in the new class it's understandable that most chose not to make the jump. The cheaper class makes perfect sense, but there needed to be some sort of concensus, some impetus behind it. Sorry to say the idea was good but the execution wasn't quite right. If it was a transitional thing, with the class moving in a definite direction then folks would have no choice to make the choice sooner or later, but as it stands racers are racers and want to ride the best bikes they can and finish as best they can. Just ask the MotoGP boys: how many of the established prototype racers are rushing to jump on a CRT bike and be first CRT over the line?

Sorry, not having a go here, you offered a perfectly valid choice. But there's some momentum involved with established classes, almost a herd mentality, that needs to be overcome if a new class is going to be successful.

[Kiwi Graham]

Well summarised Ian. Its always a challenge to keep everything as affordable as possible but the ''line in the sand'' mustnt be moved so far that it creates real issues ( such as more crashing )............ because of the simple expedient of satisfying those that have unrealistic expectations of just how affordable it should be. If youve got a beer income but a champagne taste then really you should just be drinking beer. Or in other terms if you cannot truly afford to go 600 or 1000cc racing at a realistic and safe level, then you should choose a lesser formula.
Thats in no way intended to be callous in outlook, its simple economics. But anyway, as Ian said there wasnt much wrong with the old 600 sports production rules.


The Most Rev Dr Mr Dawson is correct, the Commission members at the time made the decision to at least investigate how the Riders really felt by letting them vote with their feet, and without dis-enfranchising either side of the discussion.
And the ensuing seasons entry list illustrated their wishes at the time .........

The lightly modded stock proposition is a good one, but has a couple of fishooks in there that have been discussed over the last couple of years ( yes, we've been talking about this for at least that long - this is NOT a new overnight brainwave )

Billy is doing a great job of taking the idea further down the track, just dont take any perceived lack of progress as inactivity on his part


Yeah, nah....I don't think it's quite that simple. It was a leap into the unknown for the established racers and not knowing the numbers/kudos involved in the new class it's understandable that most chose not to make the jump. The cheaper class makes perfect sense, but there needed to be some sort of concensus, some impetus behind it. Sorry to say the idea was good but the execution wasn't quite right. If it was a transitional thing, with the class moving in a definite direction then folks would have no choice to make the choice sooner or later, but as it stands racers are racers and want to ride the best bikes they can and finish as best they can. Just ask the MotoGP boys: how many of the established prototype racers are rushing to jump on a CRT bike and be first CRT over the line?

Sorry, not having a go here, you offered a perfectly valid choice. But there's some momentum involved with established classes, almost a herd mentality, that needs to be overcome if a new class is going to be successful.

Riders are always going to strive for the 'premier class' espesially if it is just the premier class that gets the TV coverage :whistle:

If the 'premier class' becomes what is discussed here then that is where the manufacurers will put their product and best riders. Whilst the is a percieved better choice then that is where they will go.

[codgyoleracer]

Well summarised Ian. Its always a challenge to keep everything as affordable as possible but the ''line in the sand'' mustnt be moved so far that it creates real issues ( such as more crashing )............ because of the simple expedient of satisfying those that have unrealistic expectations of just how affordable it should be. If youve got a beer income but a champagne taste then really you should just be drinking beer. Or in other terms if you cannot truly afford to go 600 or 1000cc racing at a realistic and safe level, then you should choose a lesser formula.
Thats in no way intended to be callous in outlook, its simple economics. But anyway, as Ian said there wasnt much wrong with the old 600 sports production rules.

That is about the largest load of bollocks i have read thus far on the matter, and it is a great example of political sidetracking, self-considering, & use of "the veil of safety" to steer the in-experienced away from the matter at hand.
You should know better RT, You are a norty norty boy.

[codgyoleracer]

Yeah, nah....I don't think it's quite that simple. It was a leap into the unknown for the established racers and not knowing the numbers/kudos involved in the new class it's understandable that most chose not to make the jump. The cheaper class makes perfect sense, but there needed to be some sort of concensus, some impetus behind it. Sorry to say the idea was good but the execution wasn't quite right. If it was a transitional thing, with the class moving in a definite direction then folks would have no choice to make the choice sooner or later, but as it stands racers are racers and want to ride the best bikes they can and finish as best they can. Just ask the MotoGP boys: how many of the established prototype racers are rushing to jump on a CRT bike and be first CRT over the line?

Sorry, not having a go here, you offered a perfectly valid choice. But there's some momentum involved with established classes, almost a herd mentality, that needs to be overcome if a new class is going to be successful.


Agreed: The above is trying to explain the difference between providing clear direction with an overall clear long-term plan, as oposed to reacting to a current position and creating a short term solution.
This sorta stuff is probably a bit too deep to explain in this type of forum, (no offence to anyone) but some on here will know what i am reffering too.

[Robert Taylor]

That is about the largest load of bollocks i have read thus far on the matter, and it is a great example of political sidetracking, self-considering, & use of "the veil of safety" to steer the in-experienced away from the matter at hand.
You should know better RT, You are a norty norty boy.

Absolutely not and I stand resolutely by what I said. Safety should always be of paramount importance in any consideration of playing with motorsport rules, but that wasnt my main point by any means. The reality is there are those who continually want to make classes cheaper to ''self consider'' /suit what are often unrealistically low budgets. Therefore the rulemakers need to carefully consider that rule changes that bear in mind cost cutting dont unduly bastardise the class. Balance....

[Crasherfromwayback]

That is about the largest load of bollocks i have read thus far on the matter, and it is a great example of political sidetracking, self-considering, & use of "the veil of safety" to steer the in-experienced away from the matter at hand.
You should know better RT, You are a norty norty boy.

Yeah I don't recall too many people getting badly hurt on senior proddy bikes because they didn't have $3000.00 shocks. You put better shocks on 'em...they go round corners faster. You then crash harder when it goes bad. Think the 800cc moto gp bikes have had far worse biffs than the thous they replaced with the xtra corner speed.

[codgyoleracer]

Absolutely not and I stand resolutely by what I said. Safety should always be of paramount importance in any consideration of playing with motorsport rules, but that wasnt my main point by any means. The reality is there are those who continually want to make classes cheaper to ''self consider'' /suit what are often unrealistically low budgets. Therefore the rulemakers need to carefully consider that rule changes that bear in mind cost cutting dont unduly bastardise the class. Balance....

All good Rob, I am typing my report on safety concerns to the organisers of BSB as we speak. The spec bikes that they are now using which now must be well below the apparently "safer" level of the WSBK machines is clearly a risk to the riders of that series. I may have trouble sleeping tonight over the matter.............

[codgyoleracer]

RE TYRE USAGE

Check out www.formula-xtreme.com.au/ and look at rules for the 600 class

I think they are great rules helping keep costs down and as the race/practice/qualify milage is very simmilar, it may be a good thing for back home in SBK and 600z

The brand quality we have to use is SHIT though USA Ntec SUCK and the sizing is ridiculous, 125 front and 200 rear on 600z

Yeah, its another whole subjective subject on its own that one aye Shaun.
Personally i agree with the concept overall.

[Robert Taylor]

Yeah I don't recall too many people getting badly hurt on senior proddy bikes because they didn't have $3000.00 shocks. You put better shocks on 'em...they go round corners faster. You then crash harder when it goes bad. Think the 800cc moto gp bikes have had far worse biffs than the thous they replaced with the xtra corner speed.

Come on Pete, thats a bit mischievous. I wasnt referring to shocks per-se. It was a generalised comment and we have all seen plenty of people crash because ( for example ) the tyres were well past their use by date. But yes good suspension does give you the ability to crash at higher speed, and I tell a lot of my customers that!

[Robert Taylor]

All good Rob, I am typing my report on safety concerns to the organisers of BSB as we speak. The spec bikes that they are now using which now must be well below the apparently "safer" level of the WSBK machines is clearly a risk to the riders of that series. I may have trouble sleeping tonight over the matter.............

Refer my reply to Pete ( Crasher.... ) But also read my earlier post which cites an example of a fork related issue compared to ''beefy'' racing intended forks. Also note my clarification that I wasnt advocating using more expensive components. Its TOTALLY relevant to state that there are always ( often nasty ) technical issues to consider / overcome when you take stuff to the race track that was never intended for racing.
The commuter bikes that we turn into racebikes ( SV650 ) are as you are abundantly aware a prime example . I think the crankcases count is increasing for one.
Personally I would like to see something along the lines of how Superstock 1000 is currently drawn up and apply that also to 600 class. And if we must talk about suspension for these bikes it is clear that most racers have an appetite moreso for aftermarket shocks and cartridges, they are more forgiving, are a LOT easier to work with ( some anyway! ) and have ongoing resale value.

[The Chow]

Riders are always going to strive for the 'premier class' espesially if it is just the premier class that gets the TV coverage :whistle:

If the 'premier class' becomes what is discussed here then that is where the manufacurers will put their product and best riders. Whilst the is a percieved better choice then that is where they will go.

Hey you guys are good how about giving your ideas and powers of crystal ball gazing to Billy . Wow we never thought about a phasing in period :brick:, but at the time we were being smacked around the head for not doing anything. Yes a phasing in period would of course be great , but the amount of shit that gets thrown around , you are dammed if you try and you are dammed if you don't , that is just life , get use to it.

So this didn't work , just like other times in the history of this sport , there have been plenty of areas haven't worked but saying that there has been successes lets for once look at those. And before you say "I wasn't having a go" , its ok you and me and others all able to voice our opinion , sometime :scooter:will be right ways and some ways they will be wrong. The system isn't perfect , but it what we have.

[Billy]

Hey you guys are good how about giving your ideas and powers of crystal ball gazing to Billy . Wow we never thought about a phasing in period :brick:, but at the time we were being smacked around the head for not doing anything. Yes a phasing in period would of course be great , but the amount of shit that gets thrown around , you are dammed if you try and you are dammed if you don't , that is just life , get use to it.

So this didn't work , just like other times in the history of this sport , there have been plenty of areas haven't worked but saying that there has been successes lets for once look at those. And before you say "I wasn't having a go" , its ok you and me and others all able to voice our opinion , sometime :scooter:will be right ways and some ways they will be wrong. The system isn't perfect , but it what we have.

Hahahaha! I wouldnt go taking it to heart Ian,Really when you think about it,What goes on,On this site is no different to what we used to do back in the 70s,Only difference was we went to the old Taita hotel 6 nights a week to do it,As your well aware everybodys an expert and MNZ will only ever be a bunch of wankers trying to make it as difficult for the competitors as we can to some folks,Its hardly a new thing and something I was well aware before taking the position,I'm quite prepared to listen to anybodys ideas,But that doesn't mean they'll be set in stone and I'm sure it would be a shock too most if they realised a majority vote in this sport is around 25%,You only have to look at the voting figures to realise that.

My plans for this class are as follows,

One class called Supersport,Stock engines,Full exhaust,Powercommander/kit ECU,Aftermarket suspenders.

Its hardly new,I'm led to believe its as it used too be,After many hours discussing this with a widerange of people from within the industry/competitors previous and present and anybody else thats actually bothered to contact me on the matter,This is what appears to be on the face of it the best scenario,Yip theres gonna be some makes that are not competitve with stock engines some years,But it will no doubt be swings and round abouts when it comes too this,Yes theres gonna be some folks that spend the extra money getting their engines blueprinted and MAY have an advantage,But thats motorsport,If you made it all stock,Those same folks will just spend the money at the track getting faster anyways,All the same as I see it,It Allows joe average to enter the class and not HAVE to be down a huge amount on horsepower or spend a bunch of money.

Of course these are only my thoughts and I know there are others on the commission and beyond who think differently and I'm sure there'll be some healthy debate on the subject,When its discussed in full.

[codgyoleracer]

Hey you guys are good how about giving your ideas and powers of crystal ball gazing to Billy . Wow we never thought about a phasing in period :brick:, but at the time we were being smacked around the head for not doing anything. Yes a phasing in period would of course be great , but the amount of shit that gets thrown around , you are dammed if you try and you are dammed if you don't , that is just life , get use to it.

So this didn't work , just like other times in the history of this sport , there have been plenty of areas haven't worked but saying that there has been successes lets for once look at those. And before you say "I wasn't having a go" , its ok you and me and others all able to voice our opinion , sometime :scooter:will be right ways and some ways they will be wrong. The system isn't perfect , but it what we have.

Yip, Rock and Hard place for the guys stuck with the job.
But never-the-less unless the subject is discussed warts n all, it can be difficult to have all the information at hand so as to provide the best forecast / plan possible for those that make the calls.

This particular subject - whilst topical, is just one of many many "other matters" that these guys have to deal with (all for love) on a day-to-day basis. To most of us many of these "other matters" often appear trivial but to those involved with them they are a priority.

What i am trying to say, is that whilst this might be a "big picture issue" that has a greater impact on the sport as a whole, - we cannot ignore the efforts made in so many areas by these volunteers that try there damdest to keep everyone happy on all matters.

[Kiwi Graham]

Hahahaha! I wouldnt go taking it to heart Ian,Really when you think about it,What goes on,On this site is no different to what we used to do back in the 70s,Only difference was we went to the old Taita hotel 6 nights a week to do it,As your well aware everybodys an expert and MNZ will only ever be a bunch of wankers trying to make it as difficult for the competitors as we can to some folks,Its hardly a new thing and something I was well aware before taking the position,I'm quite prepared to listen to anybodys ideas,But that doesn't mean they'll be set in stone and I'm sure it would be a shock too most if they realised a majority vote in this sport is around 25%,You only have to look at the voting figures to realise that.

My plans for this class are as follows,

One class called Supersport,Stock engines,Full exhaust,Powercommander/kit ECU,Aftermarket suspenders.

Its hardly new,I'm led to believe its as it used too be,After many hours discussing this with a widerange of people from within the industry/competitors previous and present and anybody else thats actually bothered to contact me on the matter,This is what appears to be on the face of it the best scenario,Yip theres gonna be some makes that are not competitve with stock engines some years,But it will no doubt be swings and round abouts when it comes too this,Yes theres gonna be some folks that spend the extra money getting their engines blueprinted and MAY have an advantage,But thats motorsport,If you made it all stock,Those same folks will just spend the money at the track getting faster anyways,All the same as I see it,It Allows joe average to enter the class and not HAVE to be down a huge amount on horsepower or spend a bunch of money.

Of course these are only my thoughts and I know there are others on the commission and beyond who think differently and I'm sure there'll be some healthy debate on the subject,When its discussed in full.

Good on ya Billy for listening not only from those that approach you through the 'correct' channels but to the comments made far and wide including here in 'KB land'.
I encourage all types of discussion and debate, the skill lies in de-chaffing the bullshit and seeing whats left behind and digesting its merits and possabilities.

To those that are or should I say 'have found' themselves in positions in organisations within our sport its often a steep learning curve requiring a lot of patience and diplomacy.
Dont get me started on the amount of time it consumes either! :crazy:

[wharfy]

I am a bit of a wuss, but I would rather spend my money on better brakes and suspension than trying to extract more horsepower out of a bike that already scares the shit out of me - ( I've got modestly powered 4 year old 675) :)
I reckon keep the motors BOG standard - No pipes, no aftermarket filters, no alternative fuel management systems - Spend the money on shocks, brakes and tyres.
Litre class bikes have so much horsepower in standard form that a few years ago racers could only dream about it. Most current models about +180 HP ? That's enough to give everybody all the thrills they need, racers, spectators and organizers alike !! There is only a handful of riders in NZ that can wring a superbikes neck without risking their own. (We have to import riders from overseas to rark them up a bit ) :)

It would also help allay the fears of the people who are concerned about the safety, plus noise and emissions from modified bikes.

Disclaimer/confession - My 675 has a way cool aftermarket pipe, I occasionally go out to the shed to just polish the pipe and run the bike to hear it !!! ( full system designed by Mr Harris from down south) :) It came with the bike - To replace it would cost more than the lovely gold shock I had fitted !!
Ahh yeah... It also has a few aftermarket bits of sub frame etc 'cause I've crashed it a few times and they are cheaper than genuine bits (by a factor of 5 !!)

[Billy]

I am a bit of a wuss, but I would rather spend my money on better brakes and suspension than trying to extract more horsepower out of a bike that already scares the shit out of me - ( I've got modestly powered 4 year old 675) :)
I reckon keep the motors BOG standard - No pipes, no aftermarket filters, no alternative fuel management systems - Spend the money on shocks, brakes and tyres.
Litre class bikes have so much horsepower in standard form that a few years ago racers could only dream about it. Most current models about +180 HP ? That's enough to give everybody all the thrills they need, racers, spectators and organizers alike !! There is only a handful of riders in NZ that can wring a superbikes neck without risking their own. (We have to import riders from overseas to rark them up a bit ) :)

It would also help allay the fears of the people who are concerned about the safety, plus noise and emissions from modified bikes.

Disclaimer/confession - My 675 has a way cool aftermarket pipe, I occasionally go out to the shed to just polish the pipe and run the bike to hear it !!! ( full system designed by Mr Harris from down south) :) It came with the bike - To replace it would cost more than the lovely gold shock I had fitted !!
Ahh yeah... It also has a few aftermarket bits of sub frame etc 'cause I've crashed it a few times and they are cheaper than genuine bits (by a factor of 5 !!)


Okay Kev,

This is a classic example of the comments we have to take into consideration when discussing these class structures,NO PIPE,Problem with that theory is,If you think an aftermarket pipe is expensive,Try pricing up the OEM part and lets be realistic here,Experience tells me that when racing a motorcycle,Its not IF your gonna crash it,Its more like where and how big,Chances are that when that happens your gonna damage the OEM muffler,As a number of the newer models don't have slip on mufflers then that means replacing the bulk of the system,That in itself raises another problem when looking at allowing a slip on,If the factory system doesn't have a slip on, where do we allow the competitors to cut them and fit a slip on,While at the same time if they do cut their OEM muffler off and fit an aftermarket muffler only,Have they devalued their machine when it comes time too sell it as a roadbike?A good example of this was brought home too me last night when a competitor in the Hyosung cup queried me on the slip on rule for 250 production,The Hyosung 250 doesnt have provision for a slip on as the original muffler bolts onto a flange,Therefore as the rule reads a slip on muffler is allowed but the headers must remain standard,He figured he could slip his on at the collector,Therefore bypassing the stock midpipe with a splitter in it.

Therefore on the face of it,The best solution is to allow a full system,That can be onsold when youve finished with it and the OEM system refitted in its original condition,From that you can see the sort of discussion required and the amount of thought that is required re deciding on what is the best overall result as opposed to one persons perception.

In addition,Just to stop me from further damaging my minds eye with repeated poking,When you go into the garage to "polish the pipe",You are still talking about the motorcycle ....Aye?

[The Chow]

Good on ya Billy for listening not only from those that approach you through the 'correct' channels but to the comments made far and wide including here in 'KB land'.
I encourage all types of discussion and debate, the skill lies in de-chaffing the bullshit and seeing whats left behind and digesting its merits and possabilities.

To those that are or should I say 'have found' themselves in positions in organisations within our sport its often a steep learning curve requiring a lot of patience and diplomacy.
Dont get me started on the amount of time it consumes either! :crazy:

So do I , and no I'm not taking to heart anything and as I have said previously we all have opinions and that is great , be it at the pub the track or here. But I'm not going to agree with everything and certainly I will never stand back and let the hard unpaid work done by many for the sake of keeping the sport going get bagged from now on. Ideas can be discussed in a civil manner ..... oh shit there I go again forgot where I was LOL:scooter:

[wharfy]

Okay Kev,

This is a classic example of the comments we have to take into consideration when discussing these class structures,NO PIPE,Problem with that theory is,If you think an aftermarket pipe is expensive,Try pricing up the OEM part and lets be realistic here,Experience tells me that when racing a motorcycle,Its not IF your gonna crash it,Its more like where and how big,Chances are that when that happens your gonna damage the OEM muffler,As a number of the newer models don't have slip on mufflers then that means replacing the bulk of the system,That in itself raises another problem when looking at allowing a slip on,If the factory system doesn't have a slip on, where do we allow the competitors to cut them and fit a slip on,While at the same time if they do cut their OEM muffler off and fit an aftermarket muffler only,Have they devalued their machine when it comes time too sell it as a roadbike?A good example of this was brought home too me last night when a competitor in the Hyosung cup queried me on the slip on rule for 250 production,The Hyosung 250 doesnt have provision for a slip on as the original muffler bolts onto a flange,Therefore as the rule reads a slip on muffler is allowed but the headers must remain standard,He figured he could slip his on at the collector,Therefore bypassing the stock midpipe with a splitter in it.

Therefore on the face of it,The best solution is to allow a full system,That can be onsold when youve finished with it and the OEM system refitted in its original condition,From that you can see the sort of discussion required and the amount of thought that is required re deciding on what is the best overall result as opposed to one persons perception.

In addition,Just to stop me from further damaging my minds eye with repeated poking,When you go into the garage to "polish the pipe",You are still talking about the motorcycle ....Aye?

Oh yeah the motorcycle :)

Indeed modification is a bit of a mine-field - I can see the argument for allowing cheaper aftermarket parts, I crash a lot ! - Where you draw the line is the tricky bit I guess. I've also got a carbon front guard - if I ever won a race somebody could protest me out of it - but in reality it is not a performance enhancing part and even at the very pointy end I don't think it would make much difference. Of course if I ever got to the stage where I thought I was going to win a race I would remove it - just to avoid being protested.

And of course whenever you crash you risk damaging a big ticket item. I know mufflers are vulnerable because they stick out a bit - but I guess it depends on the bike, the new Ducati has them tucked in out they way - could save you a fair bit in muffler replacement :)

[Robert Taylor]

Oh yeah the motorcycle :)

Indeed modification is a bit of a mine-field - I can see the argument for allowing cheaper aftermarket parts, I crash a lot ! - Where you draw the line is the tricky bit I guess. I've also got a carbon front guard - if I ever won a race somebody could protest me out of it - but in reality it is not a performance enhancing part and even at the very pointy end I don't think it would make much difference. Of course if I ever got to the stage where I thought I was going to win a race I would remove it - just to avoid being protested.

And of course whenever you crash you risk damaging a big ticket item. I know mufflers are vulnerable because they stick out a bit - but I guess it depends on the bike, the new Ducati has them tucked in out they way - could save you a fair bit in muffler replacement :)

Conversely the rear shock absorber on that Panigale looks quite vulnerable. That I dont mind!

[codgyoleracer]

Okay Kev,

This is a classic example of the comments we have to take into consideration when discussing these class structures,NO PIPE,Problem with that theory is,If you think an aftermarket pipe is expensive,Try pricing up the OEM part and lets be realistic here,Experience tells me that when racing a motorcycle,Its not IF your gonna crash it,Its more like where and how big,Chances are that when that happens your gonna damage the OEM muffler,As a number of the newer models don't have slip on mufflers then that means replacing the bulk of the system,That in itself raises another problem when looking at allowing a slip on,If the factory system doesn't have a slip on, where do we allow the competitors to cut them and fit a slip on,While at the same time if they do cut their OEM muffler off and fit an aftermarket muffler only,Have they devalued their machine when it comes time too sell it as a roadbike?A good example of this was brought home too me last night when a competitor in the Hyosung cup queried me on the slip on rule for 250 production,The Hyosung 250 doesnt have provision for a slip on as the original muffler bolts onto a flange,Therefore as the rule reads a slip on muffler is allowed but the headers must remain standard,He figured he could slip his on at the collector,Therefore bypassing the stock midpipe with a splitter in it.

Therefore on the face of it,The best solution is to allow a full system,That can be onsold when youve finished with it and the OEM system refitted in its original condition,From that you can see the sort of discussion required and the amount of thought that is required re deciding on what is the best overall result as opposed to one persons perception.

In addition,Just to stop me from further damaging my minds eye with repeated poking,When you go into the garage to "polish the pipe",You are still talking about the motorcycle ....Aye?


Whoever sets the guidlines for what remains OEM & what is allowed to be swapped out , - needs to be someone who A) Has relativley recent or current experience of the realites of racing & B) Be worldy enough to keep in mind the needs & the budget from the newcomer right up to the professional superbike team owners (no easy task)

Off the top of my head - The questions to be asking when looking at individual components are:

Is this part likely to be easily wrecked in an accident.
Are similar aftermarket parts readily available or can an owner make their own easily.
Are the aftermaket items readily available to all competitors.
If aftermarket parts available are not always made in the same materails as the original - what are the limits ?
Is the aftermarket parts likely to be or is it promoted as "a performance enhancing item" ( I:E anything that provides a weight or hp or traction gain) then the rule instagator would need to place extra thought into how that part affects the various competing brands.
Does the part only provide a solution to one specific brand that has an commonly known design fault ? I:E why allow a rear linkage rule in because of one brands issues, - but open the door to a great deal of development cost for all other brands to improve their own (which will happen)
What does the aftermarket part cost.
Is there sufficent price dissparity between OEM parts and the aftermarket item to consider.
Is the aftermarket part justified on the grounds of safety
Is the aftermarket part or rule relativly simple to complete technical checks on

And so on and so on..........


All of the above are relative or not relative to the individual classes as they stand. For instance the answers to these questions between say Prolite 250 and Superbike would be quite different.

[The Chow]

Whoever sets the guidlines for what remains OEM & what is allowed to be swapped out , - needs to be someone who A) Has relativley recent or current experience of the realites of racing & B) Be worldy enough to keep in mind the needs & the budget from the newcomer right up to the professional superbike team owners (no easy task)

Off the top of my head - The questions to be asking when looking at individual components are:

Is this part likely to be easily wrecked in an accident.
Are similar aftermarket parts readily available or can an owner make their own easily.
Are the aftermaket items readily available to all competitors.
If aftermarket parts available are not always made in the same materails as the original - what are the limits ?
Is the aftermarket parts likely to be or is it promoted as "a performance enhancing item" ( I:E anything that provides a weight or hp or traction gain) then the rule instagator would need to place extra thought into how that part affects the various competing brands.
Does the part only provide a solution to one specific brand that has an commonly known design fault ? I:E why allow a rear linkage rule in because of one brands issues, - but open the door to a great deal of development cost for all other brands to improve their own (which will happen)
What does the aftermarket part cost.
Is there sufficent price dissparity between OEM parts and the aftermarket item to consider.
Is the aftermarket part justified on the grounds of safety
Is the aftermarket part or rule relativly simple to complete technical checks on

And so on and so on..........


All of the above are relative or not relative to the individual classes as they stand. For instance the answers to these questions between say Prolite 250 and Superbike would be quite different.

Thank you for your comment we will get back to you in due course , please take a number and wait.(Just kidding). Very good points Glen. :yes:

[Billy]

Thank you for your comment we will get back to you in due course , please take a number and wait.(Just kidding). Very good points Glen. :yes:

JeeeeSUS! I dont know Ian,He don't even know what the classes are called anymore,WTF is Prolite 250 ????,Old age must be getting to him,I believe he had occassion to blow out 49 candles last week,WOW imagine being that old haha!

[Crasherfromwayback]

Conversely the rear shock absorber on that Panigale looks quite vulnerable. That I dont mind!

From what I've seen so far when you crash one...that'll be the least of your worries!

[RobGassit]

JeeeeSUS! I dont know Ian,He don't even know what the classes are called anymore,WTF is Prolite 250 ????,Old age must be getting to him,I believe he had occassion to blow out 49 candles last week,WOW imagine being that old haha!

Sounds to me like Glen just applied for a thankless task.

[slowpoke]

andful
Hey you guys are good how about giving your ideas and powers of crystal ball gazing to Billy . Wow we never thought about a phasing in period :brick:, but at the time we were being smacked around the head for not doing anything. Yes a phasing in period would of course be great , but the amount of shit that gets thrown around , you are dammed if you try and you are dammed if you don't , that is just life , get use to it.

So this didn't work , just like other times in the history of this sport , there have been plenty of areas haven't worked but saying that there has been successes lets for once look at those. And before you say "I wasn't having a go" , its ok you and me and others all able to voice our opinion , sometime :scooter:will be right ways and some ways they will be wrong. The system isn't perfect , but it what we have.

Yep, it's a tricky and thankless task. But that's where my other comment regards KB comes in. For all it's warts and wankery it's a brilliant means of virtually instant communication and feedback. This is 2012 not 1982, with a soooooo many options to effectively distribute and discuss information/proposals.

As an example, who knew outside the "tight 5" that the Superstock classes were being discussed? There was obviously a submission or determination made at some point but where was the disussion and how did we as racers have any involvement? How did the Commission know what most racers were hoping for?

You guys put in so much effort, but you could remove a lot of guesswork and assumptions regarding a whole range of issues with some sort of forum or blog where issues/proposals can be discussed. Lets face it the MNZ website is filled with stuff that mostly doesn't affect road racers, updates about once a month, and it's as dry as sawdust in the Sahara....who wants to go there? But having some sort of discussion area would be a huge step in the right direction and would result in more effective and timely outcomes for all the undoubted effort that you put in. The tools are there, why not use them?

[RobGassit]

Precisely why KB is worth keeping an eye on. It's the place where you hear most things first. For instance we were thinking of big investment in a class recently, only to hear on here that it could be on the way out. Dodged a financial bullet there.

[The Chow]

andful

Yep, it's a tricky and thankless task. But that's where my other comment regards KB comes in. For all it's warts and wankery it's a brilliant means of virtually instant communication and feedback. This is 2012 not 1982, with a soooooo many options to effectively distribute and discuss information/proposals.

As an example, who knew outside the "tight 5" that the Superstock classes were being discussed? There was obviously a submission or determination made at some point but where was the disussion and how did we as racers have any involvement? How did the Commission know what most racers were hoping for?



You guys put in so much effort, but you could remove a lot of guesswork and assumptions regarding a whole range of issues with some sort of forum or blog where issues/proposals can be discussed. Lets face it the MNZ website is filled with stuff that mostly doesn't affect road racers, updates about once a month, and it's as dry as sawdust in the Sahara....who wants to go there? But having some sort of discussion area would be a huge step in the right direction and would result in more effective and timely outcomes for all the undoubted effort that you put in. The tools are there, why not use them?

How did we know ?because we were the ones at all the rounds of the nationals , winter series and Tri-series , we had riders come and keep telling us. People were given a chance to discuss it , maybe not here , but it was with riders and teams. And yet we were mis-guided and maybe made a mistake in the way things were actioned (who knows) thats yesterdays news anyway. We can communicate better at times and we are trying too but don't think everything you like will ever come in to being , the job has variables , but there is a time where someone has to make a decision on something. Mate you are so right about the MNZ website , the new one was promised for May and yet still nothing. I know they have had a few hassles with company doing the work . Lack of communication from all quarters is a problem that is for sure. As I stated previously my Job is to help Billy and Clubs co-ordinate the nationals. I'm sorry I'm not a formal spokesperson for MNZ.

Oh one final word , remember as a membership based organisation MNZ is you , you appoint the board , you have every chance to nominate people for positions when they come up. Next year it is for President and On Road Board Member (South).

[Billy]

andful

Yep, it's a tricky and thankless task. But that's where my other comment regards KB comes in. For all it's warts and wankery it's a brilliant means of virtually instant communication and feedback. This is 2012 not 1982, with a soooooo many options to effectively distribute and discuss information/proposals.

As an example, who knew outside the "tight 5" that the Superstock classes were being discussed? There was obviously a submission or determination made at some point but where was the disussion and how did we as racers have any involvement? How did the Commission know what most racers were hoping for?

You guys put in so much effort, but you could remove a lot of guesswork and assumptions regarding a whole range of issues with some sort of forum or blog where issues/proposals can be discussed. Lets face it the MNZ website is filled with stuff that mostly doesn't affect road racers, updates about once a month, and it's as dry as sawdust in the Sahara....who wants to go there? But having some sort of discussion area would be a huge step in the right direction and would result in more effective and timely outcomes for all the undoubted effort that you put in. The tools are there, why not use them?

Couple of things that need clarifying for you Spud,First of all your comment of "most racers" is a bit of an overstatement,Most racers dont visit KB or comment

Secondly,The supesrstock/Supersport and Superbike discussion you speak of has only been seriously discussed on here,We as a commission havent and won't even consider discussion on the future until the 2013 series is finalised,When we do the ideas we take into consideration will come from a much bigger circle of participants than frequent KB,Most of whom have forgotten more about running the sport than the folks on here will ever know,That said,we do read the suggestions on here and take them into consideration,That doesnt mean that because 20 people on here agree on a subject that its the right thing to do.Be prepared for a very different series for 2013 that will include a designated parc ferme where technical checks will be performed at EVERY round,Including fuel testing,Weighing of machinery and if we can get the necessary equipment cylinder volume testing for the classes we think will require it,Our technical rep is entrenched in the Kartsport NZ scene and they are both advising and helping him with preparations in this,There will also be visual checks performed on a regular basis pre race and if a machine is found to be outside the rules and can't be rectified before their next race,They will be prohibited from taking part,NO EXCEPTIONS.

[codgyoleracer]

JeeeeSUS! I dont know Ian,He don't even know what the classes are called anymore,WTF is Prolite 250 ????,Old age must be getting to him,I believe he had occassion to blow out 49 candles last week,WOW imagine being that old haha!

Wow, awesome spotting of the important stuff in that post Billy :-) , there was a a spelling error or two as well, suprised you didnt comment on that ?

[codgyoleracer]

Thank you for your comment we will get back to you in due course , please take a number and wait.(Just kidding). Very good points Glen. :yes:

Hi Ian, Yeah its a pretty standard business plan technique to write down a list of qualifying questions like these before you actually try and assess a problem. Its a way of keeping yourself and others on track and helps to quickly eliminate matters that are irrelevant or that dont fit.
The data that you have maintained and publicised on class numbers and entries at rounds is also very important for long-term planning.

[The Chow]

Hi Ian, Yeah its a pretty standard business plan technique to write down a list of qualifying questions like these before you actually try and assess a problem. Its a way of keeping yourself and others on track and helps to quickly eliminate matters that are irrelevant or that dont fit.The data that you have maintained and publicised on class numbers and entries at rounds is also very important for long-term planning. Thanks for that , and thanks for your thoughts, you know that we are all in this game together , but sometimes there has to a good cop bad cop situation , which can be awkward at times , but has to happen. Cheers

[codgyoleracer]

Couple of things that need clarifying for you Spud,First of all your comment of "most racers" is a bit of an overstatement,Most racers dont visit KB or comment

Secondly,The supesrstock/Supersport and Superbike discussion you speak of has only been seriously discussed on here,We as a commission havent and won't even consider discussion on the future until the 2013 series is finalised,When we do the ideas we take into consideration will come from a much bigger circle of participants than frequent KB,Most of whom have forgotten more about running the sport than the folks on here will ever know,That said,we do read the suggestions on here and take them into consideration,That doesnt mean that because 20 people on here agree on a subject that its the right thing to do.Be prepared for a very different series for 2013 that will include a designated parc ferme where technical checks will be performed at EVERY round,Including fuel testing,Weighing of machinery and if we can get the necessary equipment cylinder volume testing for the classes we think will require it,Our technical rep is entrenched in the Kartsport NZ scene and they are both advising and helping him with preparations in this,There will also be visual checks performed on a regular basis pre race and if a machine is found to be outside the rules and can't be rectified before their next race,They will be prohibited from taking part,NO EXCEPTIONS.


Great to hear that there will be a lifting of the game with Technical checks. This is important in ALL classes, but is particularily important in any stock based class and or any future proposed classes that might be bought closer to a stock specification.

[Billy]

How did we know ?because we were the ones at all the rounds of the nationals , winter series and Tri-series , we had riders come and keep telling us. People were given a chance to discuss it , maybe not here , but it was with riders and teams. And yet we were mis-guided and maybe made a mistake in the way things were actioned (who knows) thats yesterdays news anyway. We can communicate better at times and we are trying too but don't think everything you like will ever come in to being , the job has variables , but there is a time where someone has to make a decision on something. Mate you are so right about the MNZ website , the new one was promised for May and yet still nothing. I know they have had a few hassles with company doing the work . Lack of communication from all quarters is a problem that is for sure. As I stated previously my Job is to help Billy and Clubs co-ordinate the nationals. I'm sorry I'm not a formal spokesperson for MNZ.

Oh one final word , remember as a membership based organisation MNZ is you , you appoint the board , you have every chance to nominate people for positions when they come up. Next year it is for President and On Road Board Member (South).

Excellent post Ian and a classic example of why the commission and the board don't act on every riders whim,While they are a very important part in the system,They are also the people that want to spend as little as possible,Which in turn means we need sponsors to keep the cogs turning and guess what,They have their own agendas we have to take into consideration while formulating classe/rules etc,What we take out of anything thats posted on KB is for us to discuss,Thats assuming we take anything out of it at all,Bear in mind as some well know after the commission have discussed a subject and made a decision,Then the board have to ratify it and then it goes to a special rules committee,so they can be sure any rules are worded in such a way they can be enforced,To be honest,The ideas we take seriously are the ones that come through the correct channels as they have generally been thought through and discussed beforehand,Most of the ideas we see on sites like this appear to be the ramblings of somebody who sits at their office or control room desk with little more to do than come up with random ideas they clearly haven't thought through,Those folks would be better off spending their time reading through the rules they are expected to know and making the our job easier by not repeatedly having to answer emails and phonecalls about subjects whereby the answers are already available too them on the website,Then we could actually get on with the job at hand,I guess thats not as rewarding as showing everybody how knowledgable they really are by posting on a forum,

[Robert Taylor]

Excellent post Ian and a classic example of why the commission and the board don't act on every riders whim,While they are a very important part in the system,They are also the people that want to spend as little as possible,Which in turn means we need sponsors to keep the cogs turning and guess what,They have their own agendas we have to take into consideration while formulating classe/rules etc,What we take out of anything thats posted on KB is for us to discuss,Thats assuming we take anything out of it at all,Bear in mind as some well know after the commission have discussed a subject and made a decision,Then the board have to ratify it and then it goes to a special rules committee,so they can be sure any rules are worded in such a way they can be enforced,To be honest,The ideas we take seriously are the ones that come through the correct channels as they have generally been thought through and discussed beforehand,Most of the ideas we see on sites like this appear to be the ramblings of somebody who sits at their office or control room desk with little more to do than come up with random ideas they clearly haven't thought through,Those folks would be better off spending their time reading through the rules they are expected to know and making the our job easier by not repeatedly having to answer emails and phonecalls about subjects whereby the answers are already available too them on the website,Then we could actually get on with the job at hand,I guess thats not as rewarding as showing everybody how knowledgable they really are by posting on a forum,

Bingo, very well said but doubtless it will ruffle a few feathers! The problem also with forums is that if people choose to remain anonymous behind their forum names they will happily snipe away saying things that they will have rather less intestinal fortitude to say face to face.

I dont envy your job for all the tea in China

[Shaun]

Bingo, very well said but doubtless it will ruffle a few feathers! The problem also with forums is that if people choose to remain anonymous behind their forum names they will happily snipe away saying things that they will have rather less intestinal fortitude to say face to face.

I dont envy your job for all the tea in China



There are a few of us that stand by what we type BIATCH

[codgyoleracer]

Excellent post Ian and a classic example of why the commission and the board don't act on every riders whim,While they are a very important part in the system,They are also the people that want to spend as little as possible,Which in turn means we need sponsors to keep the cogs turning and guess what,They have their own agendas we have to take into consideration while formulating classe/rules etc,What we take out of anything thats posted on KB is for us to discuss,Thats assuming we take anything out of it at all,Bear in mind as some well know after the commission have discussed a subject and made a decision,Then the board have to ratify it and then it goes to a special rules committee,so they can be sure any rules are worded in such a way they can be enforced,To be honest,The ideas we take seriously are the ones that come through the correct channels as they have generally been thought through and discussed beforehand,Most of the ideas we see on sites like this appear to be the ramblings of somebody who sits at their office or control room desk with little more to do than come up with random ideas they clearly haven't thought through,Those folks would be better off spending their time reading through the rules they are expected to know and making the our job easier by not repeatedly having to answer emails and phonecalls about subjects whereby the answers are already available too them on the website,Then we could actually get on with the job at hand,I guess thats not as rewarding as showing everybody how knowledgable they really are by posting on a forum,

Agreed , a great post.
This thread is about how BSB have moved in a certain direction and has nothing to do with a "riders whim". Riders as a rule are not typically wanting to spend "as lttle as possible" - most infact are pretty clued up and realise what racing costs and what the levels of potential expenditure each class has. The point of this thread title is that the premier class (and maybe the 600 class) are the two most reveered classes we have - and it is therfore probably reasonble to take a position of view that the more simple and achievable we make the rules to allow competitors to compete then the more successfull the class might be.

The rest of Billys comments are about KB and the position it takes in the scheme of things, I cant be bothered commenting on that aspect as its sidetracking from the discussion. Maybe someone else can pick up that discussion.
GW

[codgyoleracer]

Bingo, very well said but doubtless it will ruffle a few feathers! The problem also with forums is that if people choose to remain anonymous behind their forum names they will happily snipe away saying things that they will have rather less intestinal fortitude to say face to face.

I dont envy your job for all the tea in China


More sidetracking clap-trap

[Billy]

Agreed , a great post.
This thread is about how BSB have moved in a certain direction and has nothing to do with a "riders whim". Riders as a rule are not typically wanting to spend "as lttle as possible" - most infact are pretty clued up and realise what racing costs and what the levels of potential expenditure each class has. The point of this thread title is that the premier class (and maybe the 600 class) are the two most reveered classes we have - and it is therfore probably reasonble to take a position of view that the more simple and achievable we make the rules to allow competitors to compete then the more successfull the class might be.

The rest of Billys comments are about KB and the position it takes in the scheme of things, I cant be bothered commenting on that aspect as its sidetracking from the discussion. Maybe someone else can pick up that discussion.
GW

Geewillakers GW and youve got the gall to call Roberts post claptrap !!!!

My post was about the relevance of ideas raised on this site and how/why and who has to process said ideas,My post was as relevant to this thread as yours regarding how or why we should look at various areas of the process,As in it explains the process these ideas have to go through,If you didnt want us to have any input to your thread,You should have stated that in the original post,But of course if we aren't allowed input,Then we're not likely to follow the thread and therefore there'd be no point in it at all.

[Robert Taylor]

Agreed , a great post.
This thread is about how BSB have moved in a certain direction and has nothing to do with a "riders whim". Riders as a rule are not typically wanting to spend "as lttle as possible" - most infact are pretty clued up and realise what racing costs and what the levels of potential expenditure each class has. The point of this thread title is that the premier class (and maybe the 600 class) are the two most reveered classes we have - and it is therfore probably reasonble to take a position of view that the more simple and achievable we make the rules to allow competitors to compete then the more successfull the class might be.

The rest of Billys comments are about KB and the position it takes in the scheme of things, I cant be bothered commenting on that aspect as its sidetracking from the discussion. Maybe someone else can pick up that discussion.
GW

The two classes ( irrespective of any sidetracking'' claptrap '') are in fact very well subscribed. With respect to 600 it needs to morph back into one class, close to what it was. With the 1000s maybe closer to a ''Superstock'' engine rule as has been espoused by Kiwi Graham.
I still say that relevant to population its amazing how many bikes we put on the grid. That alone tends to blunt the arguments of those who want the classes to be as cheap as chips.

[codgyoleracer]

Geewillakers GW and youve got the gall to call Roberts post claptrap !!!!

My post was about the relevance of ideas raised on this site and how/why and who has to process said ideas,My post was as relevant to this thread as yours regarding how or why we should look at various areas of the process,As in it explains the process these ideas have to go through,If you didnt want us to have any input to your thread,You should have stated that in the original post,But of course if we aren't allowed input,Then we're not likely to follow the thread and therefore there'd be no point in it at all.

Your input and others that count is very much valued Billy.
However if you wish to start a thread on the relevance of KB and the information on it for MNZ - then go ahead and start one, (although you may get a slap from some for doing it.... :-) )

I felt the BSB Superbike experience was relevant - thus the thread header. The control tyre factor in that series is another huge "dont mention the elephant in the room" factor well worth discussion as well aye. Comments ?

[slowpoke]

Your input and others that count is very much valued Billy.
However if you wish to start a thread on the relevance of KB and the information on it for MNZ - then go ahead and start one, (although you may get a slap from some for doing it.... :-) )

I felt the BSB Superbike experience was relevant - thus the thread header. The control tyre factor in that series is another huge "dont mention the elephant in the room" factor well worth discussion as well aye. Comments ?

It is absolutely a relevant and worthwhile discussion.....pity you didn't follow the correct channels so the headmaster could check your handwriting young fella! :spanking: :Pokey:

[Robert Taylor]

Your input and others that count is very much valued Billy.
However if you wish to start a thread on the relevance of KB and the information on it for MNZ - then go ahead and start one, (although you may get a slap from some for doing it.... :-) )

I felt the BSB Superbike experience was relevant - thus the thread header. The control tyre factor in that series is another huge "dont mention the elephant in the room" factor well worth discussion as well aye. Comments ?

It is absolutely a relevant and worthwhile discussion.....pity you didn't follow the correct channels so the headmaster could check your handwriting young fella! :spanking: :Pokey:

Control tyres ????

Control exhausts ????

Control ECUs ????

Etc etc, ad infinitum.

Variety of choice is spice, these classes dont need dumbing down too much. This is not only about the riders, its also about the engineering.

[Tony.OK]

Control tyres ????

Control exhausts ????

Control ECUs ????

Etc etc, ad infinitum.

Variety of choice is spice, these classes dont need dumbing down too much. This is not only about the riders, its also about the engineering.

Control suspension?....................................... ..:innocent::innocent:

Whats the prob with control tyres Robert? Mass buying would surely make the most expensive consumable cheaper? Seems to be very very common around the globe these days.

[Robert Taylor]

Control suspension?....................................... ..:innocent::innocent:

Whats the prob with control tyres Robert? Mass buying would surely make the most expensive consumable cheaper? Seems to be very very common around the globe these days.

The importers supplying race tyres are already selling at so close to their cost price its ridiculous. When we talk mass buying in the NZ context its in international terms not mass buying at all.
Maybe there would be better overall deals to be had but I think every tyre manufacturer should be allowed to compete, as for ( for example ) every brake pad manufacturer. Its not only about competition amongst riders.

[gixerracer]

The importers supplying race tyres are already selling at so close to their cost price its ridiculous. When we talk mass buying in the NZ context its in international terms not mass buying at all.
Maybe there would be better overall deals to be had but I think every tyre manufacturer should be allowed to compete, as for ( for example ) every brake pad manufacturer. Its not only about competition amongst riders.

But you hate competition Robert

[budda]

the importers supplying race tyres are already selling at so close to their cost price its ridiculous. When we talk mass buying in the nz context its in international terms not mass buying at all.
.

bullseye !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Robert Taylor]

But you hate competition Robert

Im all for competition with people with ethics.

[Shaun]

The importers supplying race tyres are already selling at so close to their cost price its ridiculous. When we talk mass buying in the NZ context its in international terms not mass buying at all.
Maybe there would be better overall deals to be had but I think every tyre manufacturer should be allowed to compete, as for ( for example ) every brake pad manufacturer. Its not only about competition amongst riders.




Fair points,BUT, the racers/riders are ones that are paying for the promotion of these brands, No wholesaler is selling next to cost on all there tyres, the race related discount structure is worked out in the promotion budget, which is aimed at selling more of there product to the road riders, so still really a win to the wholesalers

So where is the win win in this relationship, yes, some riders get free tyres, some heavily discounted, but still the racers are promoting them

Realisticly, a one brand takes all series for 1 or 2 years could very well help the sport grow more by leaving the racers/workers with more money to spend to do more racing perhaps, or spend on getting there bikes handling better to save tyre wear more

[Shaun]

Im all for competition with people with ethics.




Dam, so is that why you do not like Duckarse

[codgyoleracer]

Fair points,BUT, the racers/riders are ones that are paying for the promotion of these brands, No wholesaler is selling next to cost on all there tyres, the race related discount structure is worked out in the promotion budget, which is aimed at selling more of there product to the road riders, so still really a win to the wholesalers

So where is the win win in this relationship, yes, some riders get free tyres, some heavily discounted, but still the racers are promoting them

Realisticly, a one brand takes all series for 1 or 2 years could very well help the sport grow more by leaving the racers/workers with more money to spend to do more racing perhaps, or spend on getting there bikes handling better to save tyre wear more


The position to view it from is obviously from the tyre importers perspective:

Whats in it for the winning bidder , compared to the current set up ?

1) Secure and complete control over the branding image for a specific class
2) A decent chunk of cash-flow (albiet no doubt at reduced overall margin), possibly for more than one year
3) The "mana" associated with being "the brand of choice"

These things carry value for a supplier , and are unattainable in an open market, - the "offical distributer" of course is also likely to take the plan to thier respective manufacturer and request a better than normal importer price (hopefully to the benefit of all down the chain)

The main issue i see with it actualy ever happening in NZ - is the abilty for one person to structure a suitable contract of supply and manage that with MNZ approval. The only way i see that happening is for MNZ to contract out the managment of such a system and the sideline benefit of that is that they & thier members would then be exposed financially.

[Shaun]

The position to view it from is obviously from the tyre importers perspective:

Whats in it for the winning bidder , compared to the current set up ?

1) Secure and complete control over the branding image for a specific class
2) A decent chunk of cash-flow (albiet no doubt at reduced overall margin), possibly for more than one year
3) The "mana" associated with being "the brand of choice"

These things carry value for a supplier , and are unattainable in an open market, - the "offical distributer" of course is also likely to take the plan to thier respective manufacturer and request a better than normal importer price (hopefully to the benefit of all down the chain)

The main issue i see with it actualy ever happening in NZ - is the abilty for one person to structure a suitable contract of supply and manage that with MNZ approval. The only way i see that happening is for MNZ to contract out the managment of such a system and the sideline benefit of that is that they & thier members would then be exposed financially.




mmm,it is starting look like the racers need to do some thing that some moron suggested in writing tio them ALL a few years ago about hiring/nominating a riders representative to work for them with all parties involved.

ATTN BILLY

How many registered MNZ Road race license holders are there currently please?

[Robert Taylor]

The position to view it from is obviously from the tyre importers perspective:

Whats in it for the winning bidder , compared to the current set up ?

1) Secure and complete control over the branding image for a specific class
2) A decent chunk of cash-flow (albiet no doubt at reduced overall margin), possibly for more than one year
3) The "mana" associated with being "the brand of choice"

These things carry value for a supplier , and are unattainable in an open market, - the "offical distributer" of course is also likely to take the plan to thier respective manufacturer and request a better than normal importer price (hopefully to the benefit of all down the chain)

The main issue i see with it actualy ever happening in NZ - is the abilty for one person to structure a suitable contract of supply and manage that with MNZ approval. The only way i see that happening is for MNZ to contract out the managment of such a system and the sideline benefit of that is that they & thier members would then be exposed financially.

Does it happen this way in practice? For example many used race tyres get sold off and that affects retail sales. Im not taking any sides as such but the benefits for a tyre supplier (even a monopoly supplier ) are very academic. In terms of cold hard economics.

[codgyoleracer]

Control tyres ????

Control exhausts ????

Control ECUs ????

Etc etc, ad infinitum.

Variety of choice is spice, these classes dont need dumbing down too much. This is not only about the riders, its also about the engineering.


Making the subject bigger than it really is , is another way of casting negativity into a discussion.

I am not aware of their being "an infinate number of control parts" in BSB, but a Biggie is the control tyre rule and that is what we are discussing here. BSB has reduced their bike specification, introduced a control tyre rule. + more recently also gone to control ECU's.

The big budget item is tyres of course, and thus i feel is relativley pertinant to the discussion. I am less concerned about other "consumables" and trying to drag them into the discussion is yet again sidetracking tactics. Who knows, we may even get around to talking about suspension.....

[codgyoleracer]

Does it happen this way in practice? For example many used race tyres get sold off and that affects retail sales. Im not taking any sides as such but the benefits for a tyre supplier (even a monopoly supplier ) are very academic. In terms of cold hard economics.

In answer to your question: My own experience is
50% of my tyres go to the bin / recylcers
25% get used for practice / test days (then go to the bin)
25% get sold onto mates for track work.

[Kevin G]

In Ausie they do have the control tyre deal with Dunlop. Below is in AUD of course so Superbike slicks at AUD$575 a set is around NZ$735 a set...not so cheap. I know that they have tyres as prizes etc but if you are not winning....I think its more expensive but I stand to be corrected as I do not purchase SBK slicks...
125 slick prices in the below are NZ$ 425 a set which is comparable to NZ price for the normal bloke.

No allowance for GST in the calcs as I think the Aus rate is only 10% and I assume the below prices include GST

Figures below taken from ASBK sup regs http://www.asbk.com.au/images/stories/2012_ASBK_Supp_Regs_Finalv2_24Jan12.pdf

Superbike – Dunlop
200/55R17 KR449 Slick (35D2 or 5436) except PI $300
195/65R17 KR108 Slick (W745) PI only $375
125/80R17 KR448F Slick (32M3) all circuits $225
120/70R17 KR106 Slick (6813) PI only $275
Prostock – Dunlop
200/55R17 KR449 Slick (35D2 or 5436) except PI $300
200/55R17 KR449 Slick (5436) PI only $300
125/80R17 KR448F Slick (32M3) all circuits $225
Supersport & Superstock – Dunlop
190/55ZR17 D211 GP-A Med/Hard all circuits $270
120/70ZR17 D211 GP-A Med all circuits $200
Superlites – Dunlop
115/70R17 KR133 B,C,D Comps all circuits $180
95/70R17 KR149 B,C.D Comps all circuits $150
250 Production – Dunlop
110/70 17 54H GT501 All machines all circuits $100
150/70 17 69H GT501 Hyosung all circuits $130
140/70 17 66H GT501 Honda & Daelim all circuits $120
130/70 17 62H GT501 Kawasaki & Megelli all circuits $120
110/70 R17 Alpha 12 All machines all circuits $130
140/70 R17 Alpha 12 All machines all circuits $160
The above tyres are all weather tyres for dry and wet conditions.
Wets - all classes except Superlites* & 250 Production
190/55R17 KR393 414 all circuits $330
125/80R17 KR191 414 all circuits $265

[codgyoleracer]

In Ausie they do have the control tyre deal with Dunlop. Below is in AUD of course so Superbike slicks at AUD$575 a set is around NZ$735 a set...not so cheap. I know that they have tyres as prizes etc but if you are not winning....I think its more expensive but I stand to be corrected as I do not purchase SBK slicks...
125 slick prices in the below are NZ$ 425 a set which is comparable to NZ price for the normal bloke.

No allowance for GST in the calcs as I think the Aus rate is only 10% and I assume the below prices include GST

Figures below taken from ASBK sup regs http://www.asbk.com.au/images/stories/2012_ASBK_Supp_Regs_Finalv2_24Jan12.pdf

Superbike – Dunlop
200/55R17 KR449 Slick (35D2 or 5436) except PI $300
195/65R17 KR108 Slick (W745) PI only $375
125/80R17 KR448F Slick (32M3) all circuits $225
120/70R17 KR106 Slick (6813) PI only $275
Prostock – Dunlop
200/55R17 KR449 Slick (35D2 or 5436) except PI $300
200/55R17 KR449 Slick (5436) PI only $300
125/80R17 KR448F Slick (32M3) all circuits $225
Supersport & Superstock – Dunlop
190/55ZR17 D211 GP-A Med/Hard all circuits $270
120/70ZR17 D211 GP-A Med all circuits $200
Superlites – Dunlop
115/70R17 KR133 B,C,D Comps all circuits $180
95/70R17 KR149 B,C.D Comps all circuits $150
250 Production – Dunlop
110/70 17 54H GT501 All machines all circuits $100
150/70 17 69H GT501 Hyosung all circuits $130
140/70 17 66H GT501 Honda & Daelim all circuits $120
130/70 17 62H GT501 Kawasaki & Megelli all circuits $120
110/70 R17 Alpha 12 All machines all circuits $130
140/70 R17 Alpha 12 All machines all circuits $160
The above tyres are all weather tyres for dry and wet conditions.
Wets - all classes except Superlites* & 250 Production
190/55R17 KR393 414 all circuits $330
125/80R17 KR191 414 all circuits $265


Great info Kev, - do you know how the ordering and supply chain works for their system.

[Kevin G]

Great info Kev, - do you know how the ordering and supply chain works for their system.

From what I have understood you pay by the round and they have them at the track for you and they will fit them etc which would be nice...
I know when the Hoogies went across they paid for the tyres etc online from here and just got them at the track when thjey arrived.

Prize details are:

51.2 Dunlop Contingency
Round Contingencies
Superbike and Supersport competitors who qualify for
Superpole (top 4 qualifiers in Superbike and Supersport)
will be awarded a set of tyres which can be used for
Superpole.
Prostock A-B: 1st
- one set of Dunlop control tyres
Prostock C-D: 1st
- one set of Dunlop control tyres
250 Production: 1st
– one set of Dunlop control tyre
2nd
– one rear Dunlop control tyre
3rd
– one front Dunlop control tyre

Tyre allowances per round (qualifying, warm up and races)are:
Superbike 3 fronts & 4 rears
Supersport 3 sets
Prostock 3 sets
Superstock 1 set
Superlites 2 sets
250 Production 1 set
Superpole ** 1 set

[Robert Taylor]

Making the subject bigger than it really is , is another way of casting negativity into a discussion.

I am not aware of their being "an infinate number of control parts" in BSB, but a Biggie is the control tyre rule and that is what we are discussing here. BSB has reduced their bike specification, introduced a control tyre rule. + more recently also gone to control ECU's.

The big budget item is tyres of course, and thus i feel is relativley pertinant to the discussion. I am less concerned about other "consumables" and trying to drag them into the discussion is yet again sidetracking tactics. Who knows, we may even get around to talking about suspension.....

Sorry Glenn no intention of negativity, just stark reality. Tyre costs for racing are already heavily discounted. To not put too fine a point on it I dont think there would be tyre distributors beating down the doors for a ''lucrative'' tyre contract deal.

[wayne]

well some suspension companies sponsor bikes.....................
some tyre companys want there product promoted, so some lucky ones get below cost tyres
even oil companys want there product promoted, and are willing to pay hard cold ones
all in the name of sport

[Robert Taylor]

well some suspension companies sponsor bikes.....................
some tyre companys want there product promoted, so some lucky ones get below cost tyres
even oil companys want there product promoted, and are willing to pay hard cold ones
all in the name of sport

The mark of a successful company is when they dont have to sponsor anything, because their products are a'' must have.''

[gixerracer]

The mark of a successful company is when they dont have to sponsor anything, because their products are a'' must have.''

Take your fucken blinkers off jack arse

[Shaun]

Take your fucken blinkers off jack arse





I just got say hahahahaha

[Robert Taylor]

Take your fucken blinkers off jack arse

Tut tut Wayne ( John Adair ) and Craig, youll get your fingers smacked for veering off thread!

Having over many years effectively sponsored many more people than I can poke a stick at I think my blinkers are very firmly off. The service we ( for example ) give during the winter series is ( effectively ) a form of sponsporship. Sure we pick up work from it but there is a not insubstanial cost that very much comes off our bottom line. That it is considered a ''given'' that sponsorship should widely occur in road racing and many other sports is an indication that many are ''blinkered'' in their thinking. Especially considering that road bike sales ( especially of race replicas ) have been in a very depressed state for some time. We also have a number of car racing customers and they know that if they want product that someone ( them ) have to pay for it. Thats fair and reasonable, without any cold heartedness. Businesses have bills to pay.

If I asked for a heat pump or a house to be sponsored to me ( or a greenhouse but then Glenn has never requested sponsorship , in fairness ) I pretty much know what the answer would be! Fair comparison?

Note that ( as an example ) the suspension that the likes of Jorge Lorenzo, Dani Pedrosa and that sulky Aussie guy use is not sponsored to them, nor is their technical backup.

But back on thread, sure the ''control tyre'' thing may ( in fairness ) warrant further investigation and its feasibility will rest on the willingness ( or otherwise ) of any local tyre distributor to supply.

[Crasherfromwayback]

that sulky Aussie guy use is not sponsored to them,

Surely even you'll admit he raced on severely battered and bashed when he could've easily just packed up and gone home.

Lorenzo's to lose now for sure.

[Shaun]

Tut tut Wayne ( Dennis Adair ) and Craig, youll get your fingers smacked for veering off thread!

Having over many years effectively sponsored many more people than I can poke a stick at I think my blinkers are very firmly off. The service we ( for example ) give during the winter series is ( effectively ) a form of sponsporship. Sure we pick up work from it but there is a not insubstanial cost that very much comes off our bottom line. That it is considered a ''given'' that sponsorship should widely occur in road racing and many other sports is an indication that many are ''blinkered'' in their thinking. We also have a number of car racing customers and they know that if they want product that someone ( them ) have to pay for it. Thats fair and reasonable, without any cold heartedness. Businesses have bills to pay.

If I asked for a heat pump or a house to be sponsored to me ( or a greenhouse but then Glenn has never requested sponsorship , in fairness ) I pretty much know what the answer would be! Fair comparison?

Note that ( as an example ) the suspension that the likes of Jorge Lorenzo, Dani Pedrosa and that sulky Aussie guy use is not sponsored to them, nor is their technical backup.

But back on thread, sure the ''control tyre'' thing may ( in fairness ) warrant further investigation and its feasibility will rest on the willingness ( or otherwise ) of any local tyre distributor to supply.



Lucky you love craig eh

[codgyoleracer]

Sorry Glenn no intention of negativity, just stark reality. Tyre costs for racing are already heavily discounted. To not put too fine a point on it I dont think there would be tyre distributors beating down the doors for a ''lucrative'' tyre contract deal.

I agree , - the variouse tyre importers do indeed discount tyres destined for race use , I wonder why that is ?

The reason is obvious - its worth it in the long-term otherwise they wouldnt do it. And thus there is no reason why that support wouldnt continue with a control tyre format.

Its just good business

[Robert Taylor]

Surely even you'll admit he raced on severely battered and bashed when he could've easily just packed up and gone home.

Lorenzo's to lose now for sure.

Jorge wins the title, you send me red wine

Dani wins, I send you red wine and / or turn up for a ''ballistic'' weekend....

How are those classic MX shocks working out Pete?

[Robert Taylor]

Lucky you love craig eh

I do, he just loves a good windup and there is no malice. Lucky I love you, kind of!

[Robert Taylor]

I agree , - the variouse tyre importers do indeed discount tyres destined for race use , I wonder why that is ?

The reason is obvious - its worth it in the long-term otherwise they wouldnt do it. And thus there is no reason why that support wouldnt continue with a control tyre format.

Its just good business

Well thats arguable I guess. They sure do grizzle about it being a disproportionate amount of thankless hassle. The reality is their balance sheets would look better without it!

[Shaun]

I do, he just loves a good windup and there is no malice. Lucky I love you, kind of!




ohr shucks

[Robert Taylor]

Jorge wins the title, you send me red wine

Dani wins, I send you red wine and / or turn up for a ''ballistic'' weekend....

How are those classic MX shocks working out Pete?

And Jellywrestler can come along to ride shotgun....

[codgyoleracer]

Well thats arguable I guess. They sure do grizzle about it being a disproportionate amount of thankless hassle. The reality is their balance sheets would look better without it!

Right !, now that I,ve got that one sorted out for you , lets get back to this BSB Superbike dumbdown discussion....

[Crasherfromwayback]

Jorge wins the title, you send me red wine

Dani wins, I send you red wine and / or turn up for a ''ballistic'' weekend....

How are those classic MX shocks working out Pete?

Already knocked it all back!

Only just got round to getting them mounted to Rachel's CR Robert, Ran into all sorts of 'issues' with the bike. She's overseas for three months...so when we get it finished I may have to 'test' the bike/shocks to make sure it's safe for her to ride. I'll post pics as soon as it's all together.

I'll be intersted to see what's inside the factory Kayaba suspension on my SR when it turns up.

[Tony.OK]

Right !, now that I,ve got that one sorted out for you , lets get back to this BSB Superbike dumbdown discussion....

Have you noticed how the guys that never had TC are now having some good runs compared to those that have gotten used to relying on it?
Its all about the technique of riding now eh?

[gixerracer]

Tut tut Wayne ( Dennis Adair ) and Craig, youll get your fingers smacked for veering off thread!

Having over many years effectively sponsored many more people than I can poke a stick at I think my blinkers are very firmly off. The service we ( for example ) give during the winter series is ( effectively ) a form of sponsporship. Sure we pick up work from it but there is a not insubstanial cost that very much comes off our bottom line. That it is considered a ''given'' that sponsorship should widely occur in road racing and many other sports is an indication that many are ''blinkered'' in their thinking. Especially considering that road bike sales ( especially of race replicas ) have been in a very depressed state for some time. We also have a number of car racing customers and they know that if they want product that someone ( them ) have to pay for it. Thats fair and reasonable, without any cold heartedness. Businesses have bills to pay.

If I asked for a heat pump or a house to be sponsored to me ( or a greenhouse but then Glenn has never requested sponsorship , in fairness ) I pretty much know what the answer would be! Fair comparison?

Note that ( as an example ) the suspension that the likes of Jorge Lorenzo, Dani Pedrosa and that sulky Aussie guy use is not sponsored to them, nor is their technical backup.

But back on thread, sure the ''control tyre'' thing may ( in fairness ) warrant further investigation and its feasibility will rest on the willingness ( or otherwise ) of any local tyre distributor to supply.

Not the same really. If I sponsor your house a Heatpump whats in it for my company and LG? Same goes if GW gives you a greenhouse?
I will sponsor you a heatpump and you sponsor me Gas cartridges- that works

[Robert Taylor]

Not the same really. If I sponsor your house a Heatpump whats in it for my company and LG? Same goes if GW gives you a greenhouse?
I will sponsor you a heatpump and you sponsor me Gas cartridges- that works

Actually this raises an interesting point thats not irrelevant to the thrust of Glenn starting this thread. With few exceptions most suppliers to the road race fraternity heavily subsidise their pricing, often to the point of economic insensibility. A lot have over the years put a lot of free time and product into road racing, out of their own pockets. But there is always immense pressure to do even more because it gets considered as the norm. ''Heck you guys must be creaming it''. Well thats a tui moment if ever there was one!
As for the gas cartridges that Craig mentioned we have sold every single set ( and now, more than a few of them ) I.e we have not sponsored a set to anybody nor had any need to. Part of that is because we have met the stark realities of the market, there is only one margin and that is heavily subsidised, also there is pre-prep that we do. Suggested retail from Sweden inclusive of local taxes should be around $3900 but we sell way way below that.
Cynically were I ''sponsored'' a heat pump or a greenhouse and the suppliers stickers were prominently placed upon them there'd likely be just as much longer term chance of visibility as stickers on a road race bike! I will be buying a greenhouse off Glenn in the future and doubtless asking him for a bit of a deal, but respecting his need to make a fair and reasonable profit. If I actually needed a heat pump then Id buy it off Craig or Choppa. But my wood fire works very well with the added bonus that Im also able to keep warm in summer chopping the wood!
Attraction of new sponsors would ensure the revenue stream for new equipment.. Were I sponsoring ( and I have done LOTS of that over the years and still do by default ) Id be insisting on performance clauses and guarantees of product sales that would at least recover my expenditure. Therein that illustrates a very real problem for sponsors of ''minor'' sports in a low population country, the return is very minute and it can be a loss, in most instances. I think Suzuki NZs involvement and costs would be the prime example.

[codgyoleracer]

Have you noticed how the guys that never had TC are now having some good runs compared to those that have gotten used to relying on it?
Its all about the technique of riding now eh?

The BSB spec set up, - does seem to have created some new faces at the pointy end of the field aye.
I think the organisers have been able to put a vision in place and they are now seeing the benefits.
As a rule though people hate change, its time consuming, can create uncertainties, requires new thinking & development and often involves new people outside of the normal clan to become involved.

[Robert Taylor]

The BSB spec set up, - does seem to have created some new faces at the pointy end of the field aye.
I think the organisers have been able to put a vision in place and they are now seeing the benefits.
As a rule though people hate change, its time consuming, can create uncertainties, requires new thinking & development and often involves new people outside of the normal clan to become involved.

Are their new machine spec rules now somewhat closer to our largely successful rules?

[codgyoleracer]

Are their new machine spec rules now somewhat closer to our largely successful rules?

Note item 14 in this thread.

Its all about relativity

[jellywrestler]

Im also able to keep warm in summer chopping the wood!
Do you have to velcro your glasses to your forehead when you're 'Chopping'?

[Robert Taylor]

Do you have to velcro your glasses to your forehead when you're 'Chopping'?

No, but what is actually of immense assistance is fantisising that each block of wood is the head of an ex Priminister, the one that callously destroyed our Air force.

But anyway on topic I see that BSB is still a little different to ours. So what would likely be the consensus of opinion here in NZ in support of a Superstock formula for 1000s as is currently in place, as the only ''Superbike'' class in NZ? As espoused by Kiwi Graham

[Billy]

No, but what is actually of immense assistance is fantisising that each block of wood is the head of an ex Priminister, the one that callously destroyed our Air force.

But anyway on topic I see that BSB is still a little different to ours. So what would likely be the consensus of opinion here in NZ in support of a Superstock formula for 1000s as is currently in place, as the only ''Superbike'' class in NZ? As espoused by Kiwi Graham

What has been suggested too me to date is basically what we have now but with stock engines

[Mental Trousers]

What has been suggested too me to date is basically what we have now but with stock engines

So essentially Appendix G (Super Sport) but with stock engines?? Sounds perfectly sensible to me.

http://www.mnz.co.nz/download/2012_MoMS_Appendix_G_Supersport.pdf

[Billy]

So essentially Appendix G (Super Sport) but with stock engines?? Sounds perfectly sensible to me.

http://www.mnz.co.nz/download/2012_MoMS_Appendix_G_Supersport.pdf

Careful now or you,ll be blacklisted for agreeing with the gestapo,Also the same for Superbike :yes:

[codgyoleracer]

:whistle::whistle::whistle:

[Robert Taylor]

:whistle::whistle::whistle:

Showa, Bitubo, Penske, Wilbers, Race Tech, etc.............

[codgyoleracer]

Not the same really. If I sponsor your house a Heatpump whats in it for my company and LG? Same goes if GW gives you a greenhouse?
I will sponsor you a heatpump and you sponsor me Gas cartridges- that works

Off subject :-) , now i know where that old heat pump of ours is destined for Craig ..... :-)

[Edbear]

I generally ascribe to the view of, "if it ain't broke..." I, along with everyone no doubt, enjoy watching the Superbikes and most if not all classes for what each brings to the sport but recognise the cost factor. It reached the point with F1 that the team spending the most, (like US politics), won and it would be a shame to have a financially dependent race rather than a talent dependent one.

This thread has shown the difficulty of working out a fair playing field so I wonder whether there is a way to tweak what we have already? Unfortunately racing is by it's nature an expensive sport and not everyone has the same budget.

What I regretted about the F1 scene was the loss of technological advancement in "dumbing down" the regs but today you see it forced teams to explore new technology to realise their advantages.

The Superbikes are not to that level of technical demand due to fairly tight rules now so is there another avenue we could consider to help even things up a bit? Just thinking out loud as I am not as familiar with the regs as those in the know are of course.

[Bykmad]

And now to the control tyres. This is the latest from ASBK.
-- No control tyre for 2013 ASBK
-- Pirelli, Michelin and Dunlop tyres for 2013 ASBK

Riders will have the choice to race on Pirelli, Michelin and Dunlop tyres in the 2013 Australian Superbike Championships (ASBK).

International Entertainment Group (IEG) will place a cap on the number and price of tyres to ensure costs are kept to a minimum for all participating.

IEG Managing Director Yarrive Konsky said: “The move was made to allow riders a wider choice and will bring the cost of racing down, as well as add another exciting element to the tactics and strategy of racing.

“IEG thanks Pirelli and Michelin for their interest in being involved once more and Dunlop for their continued support.”

The cap and number of tyres per class are as follows:

Superbike & Prostock: Under $580 per set / 3 front & 4 rear / 2 compounds may be homologated per brand

Supersport & Superstock: Under $480 per set / 3 front & 3 rear / 2 compounds may be homologated per brand

Superlites: Under $350 per set / 2 front & 2 rear / 2 compounds will be homologated per brand

250 Production: Control tyre by Pirelli / 1 front & 1 rear / 2 compounds may be homologated

[codgyoleracer]

And now to the control tyres. This is the latest from ASBK.
-- No control tyre for 2013 ASBK
-- Pirelli, Michelin and Dunlop tyres for 2013 ASBK

Riders will have the choice to race on Pirelli, Michelin and Dunlop tyres in the 2013 Australian Superbike Championships (ASBK).

International Entertainment Group (IEG) will place a cap on the number and price of tyres to ensure costs are kept to a minimum for all participating.

IEG Managing Director Yarrive Konsky said: “The move was made to allow riders a wider choice and will bring the cost of racing down, as well as add another exciting element to the tactics and strategy of racing.

“IEG thanks Pirelli and Michelin for their interest in being involved once more and Dunlop for their continued support.”

The cap and number of tyres per class are as follows:

Superbike & Prostock: Under $580 per set / 3 front & 4 rear / 2 compounds may be homologated per brand

Supersport & Superstock: Under $480 per set / 3 front & 3 rear / 2 compounds may be homologated per brand

Superlites: Under $350 per set / 2 front & 2 rear / 2 compounds will be homologated per brand

250 Production: Control tyre by Pirelli / 1 front & 1 rear / 2 compounds may be homologated



Another way to skin the cat ?

[The Chow]

And now to the control tyres. This is the latest from ASBK.
-- No control tyre for 2013 ASBK
-- Pirelli, Michelin and Dunlop tyres for 2013 ASBK

Riders will have the choice to race on Pirelli, Michelin and Dunlop tyres in the 2013 Australian Superbike Championships (ASBK).

International Entertainment Group (IEG) will place a cap on the number and price of tyres to ensure costs are kept to a minimum for all participating.

IEG Managing Director Yarrive Konsky said: “The move was made to allow riders a wider choice and will bring the cost of racing down, as well as add another exciting element to the tactics and strategy of racing.

“IEG thanks Pirelli and Michelin for their interest in being involved once more and Dunlop for their continued support.”

The cap and number of tyres per class are as follows:

Superbike & Prostock: Under $580 per set / 3 front & 4 rear / 2 compounds may be homologated per brand

Supersport & Superstock: Under $480 per set / 3 front & 3 rear / 2 compounds may be homologated per brand

Superlites: Under $350 per set / 2 front & 2 rear / 2 compounds will be homologated per brand

250 Production: Control tyre by Pirelli / 1 front & 1 rear / 2 compounds may be homologated

The way it should be. Control tyres are a big wank. IMAO . I heard ASBK was moving away from one make months ago . Let the brands compete. The sooner Michelin and Dunlop etc can return to world championship the better. Just look at the problems WSBK control wets , they are bitching like hell about those tyres.

[steveyb]

Having stayed away from commenting for fear of having my feelings hurt, I think that information from ASBK (I assume it is true) is enlightening.
Contemporary economic theory and practise it seems (not that either of these are the be all and end all) suggests that only in a competitive market will the best prices for goods or services be achieved. Best for both provider and consumer. That goes for performance also.
IMHO the single supplier argument for any product or service is somewhat of a red-herring and a knee jerk reaction to a situation that might actually not exist.
If, in our case, riders are shying away from competing in a particular class, the provider of a certain product be it tyres, suspension, hell, even bikes, is not the reason for that.
The reasons will be that the overall package is unworkable. Too expensive, too difficult to be competitive, too complicated, too whatever. But it does seem that many believe that our current rules make the bikes too expensive to build and run.
If a single supplier corners any market, they can then supply whatever product they effectively want to, and charge whatever price they can make the market stand.
What would happen say, if Dunstonelli won the contract to supply NZSBK with tyres in 2013/14/15? cos a one year contract would not be workable due to lead times, logistics, margin recovery etc.
But halfway through the year or contract they started ramping up the price, or started bringing over leftover compounds/constructions that no-one else wanted?
You can see where I am going.
Yes, there would be contracts, but what good does that do anyone at that point? The contract would be necessarily vague in several vital areas, and MNZ has the resources to litigate? No, it does not.
Reputation? Not everyone will think they are crap if they end up being crap, but no one will believe our word over that of Dunstonelli will they?
But, you say, we will just cancel that contract and get Metmichcontstone to supply.
What? Halfway through the year? After they have been told their services are not required? How many tyres was that? When, next month?
Yeah, right.

And the obvious logical outcome of the argument is to introduce a single motorcycle supplier. Why just stop with tyres or anything else?

My point is that "dumbing down" effectively a formula motorsport class (Superbike is effectively a formula class based on production bikes) by introducing single suppliers does just that. Dumbs it down, and eventually can actually increase costs in certain areas due to the opportunity risk that is inherent in an inefficient market that was created. Why would another company carry race tyres if the racing classes are on a control tyre? Obviously they will not, so that restricts all other possible users and closes off a product line for those suppliers.

I know that they do this in other sports, sailing is a good example. But competitors therein are happy to race single types of boats that are effectively all the same; Opti, Laser, 420, 490 etc. Effectively we would have to introduce single model classes to go down that road.

So, it seems to me that rather than restricting what products or services riders/teams can use, limiting the rules around what can be built, modified and changed while allowing open use of preferred products/services would be better. Remember, that what will work on a Suzuki, might not on a Honda etc.

So, in the main, I think that yes, the BSB guys are onto something. Leveling the playing field in terms of what can be modified on the bike is a good thing, but restricting supply is not. The best teams with the best intelligence, best workshops, best technicians, best budgets and best riders will still probably come out in the best positions in the end.

Thank you all for listening.

[Billy]

Having stayed away from commenting for fear of having my feelings hurt, I think that information from ASBK (I assume it is true) is enlightening.
Contemporary economic theory and practise it seems (not that either of these are the be all and end all) suggests that only in a competitive market will the best prices for goods or services be achieved. Best for both provider and consumer. That goes for performance also.
IMHO the single supplier argument for any product or service is somewhat of a red-herring and a knee jerk reaction to a situation that might actually not exist.
If, in our case, riders are shying away from competing in a particular class, the provider of a certain product be it tyres, suspension, hell, even bikes, is not the reason for that.
The reasons will be that the overall package is unworkable. Too expensive, too difficult to be competitive, too complicated, too whatever. But it does seem that many believe that our current rules make the bikes too expensive to build and run.
If a single supplier corners any market, they can then supply whatever product they effectively want to, and charge whatever price they can make the market stand.
What would happen say, if Dunstonelli won the contract to supply NZSBK with tyres in 2013/14/15? cos a one year contract would not be workable due to lead times, logistics, margin recovery etc.
But halfway through the year or contract they started ramping up the price, or started bringing over leftover compounds/constructions that no-one else wanted?
You can see where I am going.
Yes, there would be contracts, but what good does that do anyone at that point? The contract would be necessarily vague in several vital areas, and MNZ has the resources to litigate? No, it does not.
Reputation? Not everyone will think they are crap if they end up being crap, but no one will believe our word over that of Dunstonelli will they?
But, you say, we will just cancel that contract and get Metmichcontstone to supply.
What? Halfway through the year? After they have been told their services are not required? How many tyres was that? When, next month?
Yeah, right.

And the obvious logical outcome of the argument is to introduce a single motorcycle supplier. Why just stop with tyres or anything else?

My point is that "dumbing down" effectively a formula motorsport class (Superbike is effectively a formula class based on production bikes) by introducing single suppliers does just that. Dumbs it down, and eventually can actually increase costs in certain areas due to the opportunity risk that is inherent in an inefficient market that was created. Why would another company carry race tyres if the racing classes are on a control tyre? Obviously they will not, so that restricts all other possible users and closes off a product line for those suppliers.

I know that they do this in other sports, sailing is a good example. But competitors therein are happy to race single types of boats that are effectively all the same; Opti, Laser, 420, 490 etc. Effectively we would have to introduce single model classes to go down that road.

So, it seems to me that rather than restricting what products or services riders/teams can use, limiting the rules around what can be built, modified and changed while allowing open use of preferred products/services would be better. Remember, that what will work on a Suzuki, might not on a Honda etc.

So, in the main, I think that yes, the BSB guys are onto something. Leveling the playing field in terms of what can be modified on the bike is a good thing, but restricting supply is not. The best teams with the best intelligence, best workshops, best technicians, best budgets and best riders will still probably come out in the best positions in the end.

Thank you all for listening.

Agree with the bulk of the above statement,But the funniest thing for me to take out of this thread is that nobody on the commission has suggested going to control tyres and no submissions from any members have been recieved either,In fact the first and only place Im aware of it being mentioned is right here,In fact we werent even considering looking at the Superbike regs at all until approached by a well respected,Multi national champ and his distributor/sponsor,Go figure aye,The wonders of the internet.

[Mental Trousers]

Agree with the bulk of the above statement,But the funniest thing for me to take out of this thread is that nobody on the commission has suggested going to control tyres and no submissions from any members have been recieved either,In fact the first and only place Im aware of it being mentioned is right here

Goodo. I don't like being told what I can and can't buy.

[Robert Taylor]

Agree with the bulk of the above statement,But the funniest thing for me to take out of this thread is that nobody on the commission has suggested going to control tyres and no submissions from any members have been recieved either,In fact the first and only place Im aware of it being mentioned is right here,In fact we werent even considering looking at the Superbike regs at all until approached by a well respected,Multi national champ and his distributor/sponsor,Go figure aye,The wonders of the internet.

Indeed, Steve put a lot of time into this and it all makes sense. One thing that is well known is that the control tyre situation in Dingoland has been a dogs breakfast. There are not so many kind words about the tyres and getting the bloody things to work

[DidJit]

ASBK’s approach is getting noticed internationally (http://motomatters.com/opinion/2012/08/21/an_alternative_to_spec_tires_australian_.html?utm_ source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+MotoGPMatters+%28MotoMatters% 29) already.

[codgyoleracer]

1. With respect to control tyres:

There are a number of Pro's and a number of Con's, the reason for considering or trialing such a system is sometimes simply driven by the current status quo that exists in the market/sport and this drives the need for a change.

If for example the commonly voted "best tyre in the world" happened to be available and in the same market it also happened to be bloody well priced - then there really wouldn’t be an incentive to change or consider the option of establishing some "control"

If however there were just a select few teams importing direct 'special tyres", or select few teams without budget considerations - then one might argue the opposite.

The other "anti-sell" or "fear-sell" on the control tyre discussion is that they will be or are "shit" and not what "we want" performance-wise. To narrow that down a bit this means that some teams, managers, riders who don’t like the idea or don’t want to be in the same boat as every other joe blow - will simply diss the tyres whether they are good or even if only "acceptable". The media love these sorts of comments and thus negativity about the concept travels around the globe quick smart.
Certain types of riders also love to point the finger at something that is outside of their control (tyres) - and make claim that that’s the reason they aren’t winning or doing better. This is an unfortunate fact of human nature.

On the subject of competition, well i am the last to disagree that its a good thing (most riders who race need it to improve themselves and competition certainly does that!). In respect to suppliers though and the philosophies behind a control tyre operating in the market. We need to remember its only proposed for one or maybe two classes, + its introduction is a response to a need for reasons other than considering a tyre suppliers market position.

The fact of the matter is that this is an emotional subject for some - And the only way to correctly assess a subject like this is to firstly have a good process in place for those that make the calls on such things.
That process IMO is currently dismal, and you could argue doesn’t exist. There is virtually no transparency and very little communication, however Billy is trying to improve the link between members and hierarchy

[jellywrestler]

. Effectively we would have to introduce single model classes to go down that road.


they tried that here before, anyone ever remember the GS550 Katana Cup?

[codgyoleracer]

Agree with the bulk of the above statement,But the funniest thing for me to take out of this thread is that nobody on the commission has suggested going to control tyres and no submissions from any members have been recieved either,In fact the first and only place Im aware of it being mentioned is right here,In fact we werent even considering looking at the Superbike regs at all until approached by a well respected,Multi national champ and his distributor/sponsor,Go figure aye,The wonders of the internet.


And the next cab off the rank Billy......... The one bike rule.

[Robert Taylor]

And the next cab off the rank Billy......... The one bike rule.

Id just go with the stuff that is winning the most races weekend in weekend out . MotoGP, Moto2, WSBK and WSS600. Its clearly the best and less brain hurt for making changes with.

[jellywrestler]

And the next cab off the rank Billy......... The one bike rule.

mr taylor think he means one bike per rider, rather than one make?

[codgyoleracer]

mr taylor think he means one bike per rider, rather than one make?

You are correct sir

[Robert Taylor]

mr taylor think he means one bike per rider, rather than one make?

Wrong, just one spare bike

[steveyb]

Man, the one bike per rider idea really is such a difficult one for me to come down on either side of.
On the one hand it is a sure fire way to help keep a lid on costs, but on the other hand, for big bikes that can get pretty beat up in even an inocuous looking crash it can severely curtail a riders championship.
It seems to be working well in Moto3 and even in Moto2, (WSBK as well I can't recall) but those bikes don't seem to destroy themselves in the same way as a SBK or 600 can.
Would it mean that riders who previously might have had two bikes will have to slow down and be more circumspect? Maybe, maybe not.
What about riders from overseas or local, who are paying big $ to ride in NZ teams but might be out for a round or more due to smashed bike? Is it really fair? I for one would not be able to expect an overseas rider to pay the $2M per season fee if I did not have a spare bike they could just jump onto for whatever reason.
How many riders in NZ have spare bike(s) anyway? Not too many as far as I can recall, so is the idea of one bike per rider an issue at all? Don't know.
What about the teams that have a full bike in spare parts sitting in the truck?

It is a really interesting question, one worth a real ponder me thinks.

[Billy]

Man, the one bike per rider idea really is such a difficult one for me to come down on either side of.
On the one hand it is a sure fire way to help keep a lid on costs, but on the other hand, for big bikes that can get pretty beat up in even an inocuous looking crash it can severely curtail a riders championship.
It seems to be working well in Moto3 and even in Moto2, (WSBK as well I can't recall) but those bikes don't seem to destroy themselves in the same way as a SBK or 600 can.
Would it mean that riders who previously might have had two bikes will have to slow down and be more circumspect? Maybe, maybe not.
What about riders from overseas or local, who are paying big $ to ride in NZ teams but might be out for a round or more due to smashed bike? Is it really fair? I for one would not be able to expect an overseas rider to pay the $2M per season fee if I did not have a spare bike they could just jump onto for whatever reason.
How many riders in NZ have spare bike(s) anyway? Not too many as far as I can recall, so is the idea of one bike per rider an issue at all? Don't know.
What about the teams that have a full bike in spare parts sitting in the truck?

It is a really interesting question, one worth a real ponder me thinks.

All good points again,However I think you'll find Codgy was having a bit of a laugh with that over a reply I sent out regarding a submission to his "850 twins in Supersport" proposal.

[Mental Trousers]

Man, the one bike per rider idea really is such a difficult one for me to come down on either side of.
On the one hand it is a sure fire way to help keep a lid on costs, but on the other hand, for big bikes that can get pretty beat up in even an inocuous looking crash it can severely curtail a riders championship.
It seems to be working well in Moto3 and even in Moto2, (WSBK as well I can't recall) but those bikes don't seem to destroy themselves in the same way as a SBK or 600 can.
Would it mean that riders who previously might have had two bikes will have to slow down and be more circumspect? Maybe, maybe not.
What about riders from overseas or local, who are paying big $ to ride in NZ teams but might be out for a round or more due to smashed bike? Is it really fair? I for one would not be able to expect an overseas rider to pay the $2M per season fee if I did not have a spare bike they could just jump onto for whatever reason.
How many riders in NZ have spare bike(s) anyway? Not too many as far as I can recall, so is the idea of one bike per rider an issue at all? Don't know.
What about the teams that have a full bike in spare parts sitting in the truck?

It is a really interesting question, one worth a real ponder me thinks.

It's easy. I've only got one bike so everyone else should only be allowed one as well!!

[codgyoleracer]

All good points again,However I think you'll find Codgy was having a bit of a laugh with that over a reply I sent out regarding a submission to his "850 twins in Supersport" proposal.

Nah, the BSB have a one bike rule as well, so hence the question. 850 twins in Supersport ?, Now there's an idea. Must start a thread on that one in the next few years. :-)

[slowpoke]

The way it should be. Control tyres are a big wank. IMAO . I heard ASBK was moving away from one make months ago . Let the brands compete. The sooner Michelin and Dunlop etc can return to world championship the better. Just look at the problems WSBK control wets , they are bitching like hell about those tyres.

Not so much of a wank if you want a true riders championship. Doesn't matter if the tyres are shit it's the same for everyone and best rider/team wins, rather than those favoured few on brand X. I want to see riders/machines battling on the track, I couldn't care less about a tyre war. Nothing would make me turn off the telly quicker than seeing brand X dominate and waiting for brand Y to catch up, while potential front runners are nobbled and also rans are made to look good (like Tamada on that Bridgestone shod Konica Honda).

[Shaun]

Not so much of a wank if you want a true riders championship. Doesn't matter if the tyres are shit it's the same for everyone and best rider/team wins, rather than those favoured few on brand X. I want to see riders/machines battling on the track, I couldn't care less about a tyre war. Nothing would make me turn off the telly quicker than seeing brand X dominate and waiting for brand Y to catch up, while potential front runners are nobbled and also rans are made to look good (like Tamada on that Bridgestone shod Konica Honda).


Totally Agree

[Mental Trousers]

You want a true riders championship just put everyone on the same bikes, same tyres, same fuel etc. Only thing they can change is twiddle the adjusters on the suspension then go racing.

One tyre rules are half arsed.

[slowpoke]

You want a true riders championship just put everyone on the same bikes, same tyres, same fuel etc. Only thing they can change is twiddle the adjusters on the suspension then go racing.

One tyre rules are half arsed.

Last I saw they give out trophies to riders and manufacturers, not tyre companies. The stories you hear of the old days when Michelin etc flew in specials for the favoured few just make me cringe. Stuff like Elias being an also ran in '06, on a privateer Honda, being gifted a set of Pedrosa's "special's" and going on to win an epic race with Rossi make the "sport" a joke, creating much the same 2 tiers as we have now with the prorotypes and CRT. If the best man can't win then I'm not interested.

Edit: I understand what you are saying regards parity and where to draw the line, but the basic interaction with the road is something that should be universal.

[suzuki21]

Last I saw they give out trophies to riders and manufacturers, not tyre companies. The stories you hear of the old days when Michelin etc flew in specials for the favoured few just make me cringe. Stuff like Elias being an also ran in '06, on a privateer Honda, being gifted a set of Pedrosa's "special's" and going on to win an epic race with Rossi make the "sport" a joke, creating much the same 2 tiers as we have now with the prorotypes and CRT. If the best man can't win then I'm not interested.

Edit: I understand what you are saying regards parity and where to draw the line, but the basic interaction with the road is something that should be universal.

Yep it sucks, did you know in the IDM sbk only the top ten qualifiers get the good race tyres. Once you are in that group you are away laughing as they give you good qualifying tyres the next round - go figure.
Nothing in life is fair and we have to deal with what we have - ask my wife.

[SWERVE]

You want a true riders championship just put everyone on the same bikes, same tyres, same fuel etc. Only thing they can change is twiddle the adjusters on the suspension then go racing.

One tyre rules are half arsed.

30 BMW 1000R for sale on another thread.......theres a start.............joking:innocent: