Formula 450 for NZ?

[Billy]

So the previous roadrace commissioner was really keen on introducing this class,But never got the opportunity,

Possible specs would be,

ENGINES: Stock, Suspension including triple clamps and shock linkages: Open,

Frame and swing arm: Must be from the original machine IE YZF/CRF etc, Bodywork: Open, Exhaust: Slip on only, Fuel: Pump gas only max octane 98

Has yet too be discussed amongst the commission members,But we would be keen too hear what the competitors think.

[RobGassit]

I take this to mean dirt bike conversions as per Aussie, as opposed to OZZY?

[Billy]

I take this to mean dirt bike conversions as per Aussie, as opposed to OZZY?

Yip you got it.

[RobGassit]

Yip you got it.

I'm all for it although I hope it doesn't finish off ProTwin which I see as a logical stepping stone to 600 Proddy from 250 Proddy.

[Deano]

Personally, I'd like to be able to stick with my pro twin, in pro twins.

I realise motorsport is not cheap, but there is no other 'mid sized' bike (championship) class that is 'relatively' inexpensive. Even pro twins costs thousands each year - thankfully I have some good sponsors.

Superlites would involve a lot of engine development to be at the pointy end. (Podiums)
Supersport 600 involves a large initial outlay and will chew through a lot more tyres.
I imagine that a Formula 450 class would also be pretty expensive.

There is no way I'm going back to pro or mini lites - even the SV is a little tame really !

[quallman1234]

Same old problem, without Pro-Twins/125GP there's no inbetween production (Why should you have to make some drastic mods to be competitive, which are beyond suspension/pipe/rear sets etc etc)/realistically priced national class before you are forced to ride 600's.

Formula 450 is a good idea. However ask Scott Moir about replacing valves. MX Motor's are not designed for constant high rev's. I believe he had issue, but thats TBC by him.

[Billy]

I'm all for it although I hope it doesn't finish off ProTwin which I see as a logical stepping stone to 600 Proddy from 250 Proddy.

How I understand it is,That this class would be a better stepping stone for the younger competitors and these machines can be built relatively cheaply and would also be more managable for the smaller peeps,There is also some concern within MNZ that pro twins has not taken off as well as was expected,That said,I'm not stating categorically that pro twin would go,But unless theres a big increase in numbers,It MAY be looked at.

[Tony.OK]

There is also some concern within MNZ that pro twins has not taken off as well as was expected,That said,I'm not stating categorically that pro twin would go,But unless theres a big increase in numbers,It MAY be looked at.

Almost a pattern appearing with "classes within classes"?
Sounds like Superstock 100's and 600's a bit, being mixed in with F3 or whatever its called now, do ppl just want to build/race the hotrods etc?
I do wonder how different it may be if the class was on its own? Certainly would make more sense to spectators. 1st ProTwin home in 5th place overall means nothing to the viewers.
Think CRT vs MotoGP.......:innocent:

[neil_cb125t]

How I understand it is,That this class would be a better stepping stone for the younger competitors and these machines can be built relatively cheaply and would also be more managable for the smaller peeps,There is also some concern within MNZ that pro twins has not taken off as well as was expected,That said,I'm not stating categorically that pro twin would go,But unless theres a big increase in numbers,It MAY be looked at.

I think an additional NON 600/1000 class would be great, basically an option that isn't Pro twin or F3, but the machine needs to be one that cannot be run competitively in any other class thus taking competitors out of that class (especially F3!) I think a different style bike class would be better like a 600 naked class, or 675 class or GSX600fs or whatever. Stock eveything apart from pipe and a tune and crash protection, DOT TYRES. This would give guys who want to race something other than a F3 bike or a Sv an option before jumping into 600s/1000s.

The 450 classed machine would cost far more than a single bike Stock class.

[Billy]

Almost a pattern appearing with "classes within classes"?
Sounds like Superstock 100's and 600's a bit, being mixed in with F3 or whatever its called now, do ppl just want to build/race the hotrods etc?
I do wonder how different it may be if the class was on its own? Certainly would make more sense to spectators. 1st ProTwin home in 5th place overall means nothing to the viewers.
Think CRT vs MotoGP.......:innocent:

Yip,

But its a bit like the chicken and the egg really,If numbers were to increase we would probably look at it,But as it stands now,It can work one of two ways,If we drop a support class to run a race for 8 national competitors it leaves the host club to take a loss (and I am not gonna let that happen),Or the competitors in that National class can make up the difference therefore making their entry fees through the roof and then we get less competitors,Or we can stick with the status quo hope the numbers increase,Can't see why they would though after 6 years.

[Billy]

The 450 classed machine would cost far more than a single bike Stock class.

Really,What do you base that on? Ive seen YZF450s sell recently for as little as $2000.00 on trade me,Bung a roadbike front end in it and rear wheel,Which you could pick up for $1000.00 if you look around,Might cost you $500.00 max for some machining,A set of GP style bodywork like the RS250 NXA stuff I modified for the Aprilia/RZs $750.00 and youve got a competitve racebike for less than $5k

[neil_cb125t]

Really,What do you base that on? Ive seen YZF450s sell recently for as little as $2000.00 on trade me,Bung a roadbike front end in it and rear wheel,Which you could pick up for $1000.00 if you look around,Might cost you $500.00 max for some machining,A set of GP style bodywork like the RS250 NXA stuff I modified for the Aprilia/RZs $750.00 and youve got a competitve racebike for less than $5k

maybe my interpretation of this is wrong....

Possible specs would be,

ENGINES: Stock, Suspension including triple clamps and shock linkages: Open,

Frame and swing arm: Open, Bodywork: Open, Exhaust: Slip on only, Fuel: Pump gas only max octane 98

So thats Engine stock, exhuast slip on, everything else open? Sus? Frame? Swing Arm? Rims? am I correct?

Too sim to F3 and too many ways to spend money to make it more competitive within the rules.

[neil_cb125t]

I do support another class thou billie - just would rather them be 90% stock 10% mods, rather than the other way round.

[Billy]

maybe my interpretation of this is wrong....

Possible specs would be,

ENGINES: Stock, Suspension including triple clamps and shock linkages: Open,

Frame and swing arm: Open, Bodywork: Open, Exhaust: Slip on only, Fuel: Pump gas only max octane 98

So thats Engine stock, exhuast slip on, everything else open? Sus? Frame? Swing Arm? Rims? am I correct?

Too sim to F3 and too many ways to spend money to make it more competitive within the rules.

Good spotting,I mucked up the frame and swing arm specs,Have edited it now,But as pointed out,Some WILL spend more than others,IE Ohlins spec forks,Carbonfibre wheels,TTX Rear shock,Where it differs from Superlite is all the engines will be roughly the same HP,Not as it is in Superlite at present,You will notice it also states "POSSIBLE" specs,As I have already said it hasn't even been mentioned to the rest of the commission yet,Just fishing for feedback at the mo.

[crazy man]

sounds like a motard class:innocent:

[codgyoleracer]

Well the obvious fact to ignore is that there is already a class in Superlite for the 450 single as suggested here (excepting the stock engine idea) and they would still be reasnobly competitve in that if the frames were open as suggested.

The two concerns with pro-Twins from my view is
A) The limited range of machines that are currently manufactured , that can realisicaly compete
B) The amount of modifications allowed to them under the current regs. (but then again they were never proposed to be a "stock low cost beginners class" in the first place.

Those two could be fixed though and you could produce a low cost, production based class called something like "Pro-stocklite" and run the 450 singles in Billy spec could run with a truly stock "protwin" and even the old 400cc fours (not 450) and 250 proddy 2 strokes, would hang in there against those spec bikes, creating an immeadiate supply of bikes and riders for the class..........

GW

[crazy man]

Well the obvious fact to ignore is that there is already a class in Superlite for the 450 single as suggested here (excepting the stock engine idea) and they would still be reasnobly competitve in that if the frames were open as suggested.

The two concerns with pro-Twins from my view is
A) The limited range of machines that are currently manufactured , that can realisicaly compete
B) The amount of modifications allowed to them under the current regs. (but then again they were never proposed to be a "stock low cost beginners class" in the first place.

Those two could be fixed though and you could produce a low cost, production based class called something like "Pro-stocklite" and run the 450 singles in Billy spec could run with a truly stock "protwin" and even the old 400cc fours (not 450) and 250 proddy 2 strokes, would hang in there against those spec bikes, creating an immeadiate supply of bikes and riders for the class..........

GWyour right the old 400 fours and protwins lap times are the same and a 450 stock single engine in more a race frame would be close as well

[RobGassit]

You could call it Formula 3A or Formula What the?, or WTF for short.:facepalm:

[neil_cb125t]

Well the obvious fact to ignore is that there is already a class in Superlite for the 450 single as suggested here (excepting the stock engine idea) and they would still be reasnobly competitve in that if the frames were open as suggested.

The two concerns with pro-Twins from my view is
A) The limited range of machines that are currently manufactured , that can realisicaly compete
B) The amount of modifications allowed to them under the current regs. (but then again they were never proposed to be a "stock low cost beginners class" in the first place.

Those two could be fixed though and you could produce a low cost, production based class called something like "Pro-stocklite" and run the 450 singles in Billy spec could run with a truly stock "protwin" and even the old 400cc fours (not 450) and 250 proddy 2 strokes, would hang in there against those spec bikes, creating an immeadiate supply of bikes and riders for the class..........

GW

Totally

HOWEVER, This class has been created by VMCC that being the F3 Post classic and F3 Post 90s. 250 smokers and 400 4's.........without much sucess. Maybe ditch the years thing and just make it 400 4s and 250 proddy smokers. Stock Sv's and stock 400s aren't in teh same game in my mind.

What about a 2 stroke class - 0-250, and 350-500?

[neil_cb125t]

your right the old 400 fours and protwins lap times are the same and a 450 stock single engine in more a race frame would be close as well

Hmmm i seem to remmeber protwins smashing 15's and better manny? maybe i was too slow?? unfourtunatly watching Jonny small smash up Glen W in timaru has me thinking pro twins are a bit fast:shit:

[codgyoleracer]

Hmmm i seem to remmeber protwins smashing 15's and better manny? maybe i was too slow?? unfourtunatly watching Jonny small smash up Glen W in timaru has me thinking pro twins are a bit fast:shit:

A stock protwin aint that fast (see my "comment "truely stock pro-twin" ), i.e very very limited mods

[codgyoleracer]

Good spotting,I mucked up the frame and swing arm specs,Have edited it now,But as pointed out,Some WILL spend more than others,IE Ohlins spec forks,Carbonfibre wheels,TTX Rear shock,Where it differs from Superlite is all the engines will be roughly the same HP,Not as it is in Superlite at present,You will notice it also states "POSSIBLE" specs,As I have already said it hasn't even been mentioned to the rest of the commission yet,Just fishing for feedback at the mo.

Billy you prick, 10 minuits and youve already change the rules on me...................... :-), makes my post irrelevant

[neil_cb125t]

A stock protwin aint that fast (see my "comment "truely stock pro-twin" ), i.e very very limited mods

Fair enough matey - makes sence

[crazy man]

Hmmm i seem to remmeber protwins smashing 15's and better manny? maybe i was too slow?? unfourtunatly watching Jonny small smash up Glen W in timaru has me thinking pro twins are a bit fast:shit: what lap time did Jonny small do at manfeild? + your 750 kit is ready to be picked up lol you know what it is

[Shorty_925]

450 Singles are good idea, though tend to think if there was a demand/need for it, people would have built the bikes, then raced in F3 to at least give it a crack.

Will be interesting to see what happens if the series takes off in OZ, as it never really took off in the USA.

The re-builds wont be cheap and using it on a road race track, you'll be needing plenty of them.

Like all road racing though, its not cheap, thats why I think most of the Motard guys have stopped. Compare the club day mx entry to a road race club day entry or the same for a national mx v national road race fee.

[steveyb]

In principle they sound like a good idea, but it would seem that in practice they are not that great. The F450 thing has been around for quite a few years now in the USA, with the crowd that were pushing it making examples of all of the main brands.
But it has failed to take off in any form with the wider racing public.
Maybe it is the cost? Kits are available.
Maybe they just are not that great to ride?
Maybe if a critical mass had been reached it would have taken off?

To date I think we have had only one built and raced in NZ (Aprilia).
Maybe Tim can tell us if it was/is worth the effort?

[xr-rider]

What ever happened to the rmz450 that was done like that?

[Billy]

Billy you prick, 10 minuits and youve already change the rules on me...................... :-), makes my post irrelevant

Well thats odd...We on the commission find most of your comments irrelevant,But OK I'll go along with ya!

[Billy]

In principle they sound like a good idea, but it would seem that in practice they are not that great. The F450 thing has been around for quite a few years now in the USA, with the crowd that were pushing it making examples of all of the main brands.
But it has failed to take off in any form with the wider racing public.
Maybe it is the cost? Kits are available.
Maybe they just are not that great to ride?
Maybe if a critical mass had been reached it would have taken off?

To date I think we have had only one built and raced in NZ (Aprilia).
Maybe Tim can tell us if it was/is worth the effort?

Add Lyndon from Boyds RMZ plus the CRF he did before that and Todd Ackroyds one makes four,Only problem I see is they are just not competitive at National level against our Superlite machinery,With their own class that may well change,Also they have just introduced them to formula xtreme in Aussie.

[Fozzzy]

They look great but I reckon they will be a bit to much effort for the young guys that actually need to ride them. Its a shame no one makes 250cc 2 stroke road bikes anymore they seem to be a good option for an inbetween race class. Are there enough still around to get 10 or 15 of them to the track? Maybe if you keep the 650 class and put the 450 bikes in with them? They would be about the same speed

[Fozzzy]

the 450s seem to be fine doing motard so they should be all good

[budda]

maybe my interpretation of this is wrong....

Possible specs would be,

ENGINES: Stock, Suspension including triple clamps and shock linkages: Open,

Frame and swing arm: Open, Bodywork: Open, Exhaust: Slip on only, Fuel: Pump gas only max octane 98

So thats Engine stock, exhuast slip on, everything else open? Sus? Frame? Swing Arm? Rims? am I correct?

Too sim to F3 and too many ways to spend money to make it more competitive within the rules.

The ORIGINAL proposal was stock ENGINES, FRAMES, SWINGARMS, RADIATORS, SUBFRAMES ...... Take your universal 450MXer, add shortened boingers, rearsets, clipons and bodywork - an afternoons work to convert your Jumping Bike to a Real Racer, or ( God knows why !!!! ) the other way. If neccessary, we could bring in a max HP ( say 58hp ) to keep build costs and reliability under some form of control. Could limit rim sizes to 3.5/4.5 ? Could outlaw CF etc etc too - but Herr Von Billingtons question was, is there any interest out there in developing the idea ?????

The rationale was a Class where EVERY Manufacturer has a suitable bike, the bikes are AVAILABLE, AFFORDABLE, light enough for the smaller/younger/lighter riders, adjustable enough for same Riders to LEARN something, appeal to the good old Kiwi "build yerself something" mentality, and if for some reason you dont like it, you A/ havent burnt a shitload of money and B/ the process is reversible for ease of resale

AND its a way of getting new blood into the Sport, as there are gazillions of MXers who run out of bones to break and walk ( well, Limp ) away without trying OUR adrenaline fix - even the older juniors who become disinterested when the Va JJ fairy waves her magic wand are potential competitors, and they ALL already have a bike, be it a 250 for "Kiwi Moto3 ", or a 450 for this .........

According to the Yanks ( who I have been in contact with for the last two years re this ), power to weight is approx the same as a Standard 600, so the yeeehaaa factor is still there - personally find it easier to find reasons for than against, but thats just me - hence Billys query

And lets not forget that EVERY current Mainstream Distributor has AT LEAST ONE eligible Competitive Bike - how can it be a bad thing to inject new commercial interest into our Sport ? Back in the day ( and I'm talking WAAAAAY back ) we used to Road Race our 125's on saturday, change em over Sat night over a diesel or two , and get 'em dirty all day Sunday - then you had all week to change it back again, ready for Saturday action - bang for your buck, surely ?

These bikes are legal NOW, no need for any flash sets of rule changes - and once there is a decent core of 'em, a stand-alone Championship Class ?

[budda]

Add Lyndon from Boyds RMZ plus the CRF he did before that and Todd Ackroyds one makes four,Only problem I see is they are just not competitive at National level against our Superlite machinery,With their own class that may well change,Also they have just introduced them to formula xtreme in Aussie.

That RMZ Lyndon built was shit on a stick - a little outside the proposed rules, but a thing of beauty. Just needed a little dedicated fettling ( and some BRIDGESTONES ) and it would have embarrased even more than it did. And if I remember rightly, it wasnt built with a bottomless budget, rather used what he had available and some good old Kiwi ingenuity. Bloody good job

[lostinflyz]

if it were

- Stock motor (compression, cams, pistons, rods, crank), swingarm, radiators, subframe, rear linkage
- Open: exhaust, front forks, triples, brakes, rear sets, clip ons
- Limited mods: Wheels (alloy only) , rear shock std (but open mods), frame (must be original frame but open otherwise), mods to heads allowed (how do you control??), flywheels can be modified or removed, valves can be replaced but only for a different material, size must remain the same

make that class billy and ill build 2. anything much different will become a money pit and too much like superlite

[Bert]

The ORIGINAL proposal was stock ENGINES, FRAMES, SWINGARMS, RADIATORS, SUBFRAMES ......
Take your universal 450MXer, add shortened boingers, rearsets, clipons and bodywork - an afternoons work to convert your Jumping Bike to a Real Racer, or ( God knows why !!!! ) the other way. If neccessary, we could bring in a max HP ( say 58hp ) to keep build costs and reliability under some form of control. Could limit rim sizes to 3.5/4.5 ? Could outlaw CF etc etc too - but Herr Von Billingtons question was, is there any interest out there in developing the idea ?????

........be it a 250 for "Kiwi Moto3 ", or a 450 for this .........

According to the Yanks ( who I have been in contact with for the last two years re this ), power to weight is approx the same as a Standard 600, so the yeeehaaa factor is still there - personally find it easier to find reasons for than against, but thats just me - hence Billys query
........ Back in the day ( and I'm talking WAAAAAY back ) we used to Road Race our 125's on saturday, change em over Sat night over a diesel or two , and get 'em dirty all day Sunday - then you had all week to change it back again, ready for Saturday action - bang for your buck, surely ?


Personally I think this is a cool concept (I've always liked the UK/Europe supermono concept). and loved watching Robert Holden on his little duck..
but why limit it to stock MX frames (you'd spend $$ getting the setup correct; not as simple as chucking in a set of road forks and smaller rear shock).....

I'm sure there would be a handful of bucket boys that would be open to slapping in a stock 450 into their flash as setups for shits and giggles. There must be a myriad of NSR/RGV/KR/tzr rolling frames sitting in sheds that could happily be used. Again one could do it in an evening swap out of one frame into another..

imagine a 450 in this.....:woohoo:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=268779&d=1345882136
RichBan's fxr150 nsr bucket racer...

[budda]

Personally I think this is a cool concept (I've always liked the UK/Europe supermono concept). and loved watching Robert Holden on his little duck..
but why limit it to stock MX frames (you'd spend $$ getting the setup correct; not as simple as chucking in a set of road forks and smaller rear shock).....

I'm sure there would be a handful of bucket boys that would be open to slapping in a stock 450 into their flash as setups for shits and giggles. There must be a myriad of NSR/RGV/KR/tzr rolling frames sitting in sheds that could happily be used. Again one could do it in an evening swap out of one frame into another..

imagine a 450 in this.....:woohoo:
....
RichBan's fxr150 nsr bucket racer...

Dont neccessarily disagree - but have to point out that what you're describing is ALREADY legal, and no-ones doing it !!!!!!!
The Standard frame etc concept has only TWO purposes - 1/ to keep initial costs to a minimum, and 2/ make it easier to police

[Bert]

Dont neccessarily disagree - but have to point out that what you're describing is ALREADY legal, and no-ones doing it !!!!!!!
The Standard frame etc concept has only TWO purposes - 1/ to keep initial costs to a minimum, and 2/ make it easier to police

maybe no one is doing it as buckets are more fun?? and open to just making piles of shit lying around work (appealing to the kiwi in all of us)..:innocent:

I don't totally agree with the standard frame concepts pointed out; no matter how much you try, the geometry is going to be an issue that only $$ will sort out.
but in saying that everyone is in the same vote I spose...
The overall concept has to be good idea in the scheme of things; there is a big gap between "production 250" and 600s (or protwins etc).

[Billy]

maybe no one is doing it as buckets are more fun?? and open to just making piles of shit lying around work (appealing to the kiwi in all of us)..:innocent:

I don't totally agree with the standard frame concepts pointed out; no matter how much you try, the geometry is going to be an issue that only $$ will sort out.
but in saying that everyone is in the same vote I spose...
The overall concept has to be good idea in the scheme of things; there is a big gap between "production 250" and 600s (or protwins etc).

Nope wrong,

Just converted a CR 500 in exactly the same way described,Measured as follows,22 degree steering head angle and 75mm of trail and that was with the standard rear shock.

[budda]

maybe no one is doing it as buckets are more fun?? and open to just making piles of shit lying around work (appealing to the kiwi in all of us)..:innocent:

I don't totally agree with the standard frame concepts pointed out; no matter how much you try, the geometry is going to be an issue that only $$ will sort out.
but in saying that everyone is in the same vote I spose...
The overall concept has to be good idea in the scheme of things; there is a big gap between "production 250" and 600s (or protwins etc).

you obviously have NO IDEA how many buckets have passed through MY shed ........... still got one of my originals, still all homemade and Honda, no Chinese pitbike sh1te, and still competitive ( well, it is with a different rider on board ) - the whole POINT is fun !!!!!!!!

[Paul Searancke]

" Back in the day ( and I'm talking WAAAAAY back ) we used to Road Race our 125's on saturday, change em over Sat night over a diesel or two , and get 'em dirty all day Sunday - then you had all week to change it back again, ready for Saturday action - bang for your buck, surely ?"

Budda that brings back memories of racing my CR125 around the Hamilton Street race in the 70's. It cost next to nothing to swap over because a real good bloke owned a bike shop and helped a real young squid to set it up with the gear.Thanks again Ginger.

[lostinflyz]

maybe no one is doing it as buckets are more fun?? and open to just making piles of shit lying around work (appealing to the kiwi in all of us)..:innocent:

I don't totally agree with the standard frame concepts pointed out; no matter how much you try, the geometry is going to be an issue that only $$ will sort out.
but in saying that everyone is in the same vote I spose...
The overall concept has to be good idea in the scheme of things; there is a big gap between "production 250" and 600s (or protwins etc).

no amount of money is going to "fix" a dirt bike frame. You will need new triples and you can get a set of triples made to work for any front end design.

A dirt bike frame is actually not that bad, its the rear swingarm (and the physical connection to the frame more) where i have the most problems , at least in my experiment. The frame itself is not much of an issue to solve (geometry wise). there are very few frame/swingarm combos that are worth pursuing otherwise as any geometry issues they solve come with a rather large weight issue to solve, unless you use GP frames or customs

one thing to note, and one of the issues encountered overseas is with sportbike front ends and poorly thought through rear geometry's, they do have a tendency to highside people nastily as the rear lacks anti-squat properties, and there have been a number of incidents in the US in particular with people injuring themselves not thinking through the implications of their design decisions.

[scracha]

Suzuki's aside, the reason pro-twin entries are dire is probably due to the lack of policing in the class which causes the costs to go crazy. Regardless of the engine/cc confiuration(s), a mobile dyno (max ponies) and some scales (minimum weight) are required if a lowish cost "step-up" class between 250 twins and supersport is to even get off the ground.

If it's a cheap class to get more racers on the scene, then limit wider rims, lightweight rims, piggyback aftermarket shocks or ones with remote reservoir. Also ban tyrewarmers and non dot tyres....not for cost controls but simply because fannying about changing tyres multiple times in a day will not be in the "fun" category for most potential new racers.

We have enough "premier" classes and for once I think Budda's making a lot of sense. There's a recession on and the numbers racing out there are dire.

[budda]

" Back in the day ( and I'm talking WAAAAAY back ) we used to Road Race our 125's on saturday, change em over Sat night over a diesel or two , and get 'em dirty all day Sunday - then you had all week to change it back again, ready for Saturday action - bang for your buck, surely ?"

Budda that brings back memories of racing my CR125 around the Hamilton Street race in the 70's. It cost next to nothing to swap over because a real good bloke owned a bike shop and helped a real young squid to set it up with the gear.Thanks again Ginger.

OLD COOT - CR's sucked extensive bottom compared to my RM125S, and as for my Bro's DKW 125, now THAT was cool !!!!!!!!

Besides, Hamilton is in that Island off the Northern Coast of New Zealand - the old Fryatt St Circuit in the rain was just like MX anyway !!!!!!

[budda]

we have enough "premier" classes . There's a recession on and the numbers racing out there are dire.

amen ...........

[Billy]

if it were

- Stock motor (compression, cams, pistons, rods, crank), swingarm, radiators, subframe, rear linkage
- Open: exhaust, front forks, triples, brakes, rear sets, clip ons
- Limited mods: Wheels (alloy only) , rear shock std (but open mods), frame (must be original frame but open otherwise), mods to heads allowed (how do you control??), flywheels can be modified or removed, valves can be replaced but only for a different material, size must remain the same

make that class billy and ill build 2. anything much different will become a money pit and too much like superlite

Yip,

Thats somegood input right there,Put it in an email to mnzrrc@gmail.com and I'll keep it on file till we discuss it.

[neil_cb125t]

The ORIGINAL proposal was stock ENGINES, FRAMES, SWINGARMS, RADIATORS, SUBFRAMES ...... Take your universal 450MXer, add shortened boingers, rearsets, clipons and bodywork - an afternoons work to convert your Jumping Bike to a Real Racer, or ( God knows why !!!! ) the other way. If neccessary, we could bring in a max HP ( say 58hp ) to keep build costs and reliability under some form of control. Could limit rim sizes to 3.5/4.5 ? Could outlaw CF etc etc too - but Herr Von Billingtons question was, is there any interest out there in developing the idea ?????

The rationale was a Class where EVERY Manufacturer has a suitable bike, the bikes are AVAILABLE, AFFORDABLE, light enough for the smaller/younger/lighter riders, adjustable enough for same Riders to LEARN something, appeal to the good old Kiwi "build yerself something" mentality, and if for some reason you dont like it, you A/ havent burnt a shitload of money and B/ the process is reversible for ease of resale

These bikes are legal NOW, no need for any flash sets of rule changes - and once there is a decent core of 'em, a stand-alone Championship Class ?

Sounds much better to me (the highlighted bold stuff) that fills a hole that isn't plugged, however as you state F3 or superlite allows these bikes to run in it. Therefore building it will take people out of the class who have them, Theres a quick black 450 single at VMCC in f3 already.

Never know till you make the class i suppose - they can be run in the F3 feild which is good for orginisers - but at Wanganui and other events they will just be mixed with F3...... hard one to call

[neil_cb125t]

"I'm sure there would be a handful of bucket boys that would be open to slapping in a stock 450 into their flash as setups for shits and giggles. There must be a myriad of NSR/RGV/KR/tzr rolling frames sitting in sheds that could happily be used. Again one could do it in an evening swap out of one frame into another.."

If half of you crazy bucket tinkers actually put proper engines into those high end frames the F3 wouldn't be scratching for numbers. Buckets turned when rs125 frames were being used, stick a good donk in it and come mix it on a real race track!!!!

[Billy]

Sounds much better to me (the highlighted bold stuff) that fills a hole that isn't plugged, however as you state F3 or superlite allows these bikes to run in it. Therefore building it will take people out of the class who have them, Theres a quick black 450 single at VMCC in f3 already.

Never know till you make the class i suppose - they can be run in the F3 feild which is good for orginisers - but at Wanganui and other events they will just be mixed with F3...... hard one to call

Yea,

The black one at the vic club meetings is Scotty Moirs bike,RS125 chassis with CRF450 donk,Not really what we intended,Although a feild full of those would be cool as well

[budda]

Yea,

The black one at the vic club meetings is Scotty Moirs bike,RS125 chassis with CRF450 donk,Not really what we intended,Although a feild full of those would be cool as well

Absodamnlutely it would .... trouble is, quite a few folks just dont comprehend that the Commission HAS to look at more than 1 Clubs Winter Series, got to make things work NZ wide, and not just for the Champs either. Theres a few things I personally would LOVE to see happening, but sadly they simply dont and wont fit the BIG picture ! If you've got a bike that fits the rules, and are keen to race the thing, get off the keyboard and DOO EEEET

[codgyoleracer]

Well thats odd...We on the commission find most of your comments irrelevant,But OK I'll go along with ya!

HaHa , i find that odd too, as my blatherings on here seem to have more impact than through any official channels....... :-)

The trick to anyone that post comments on KB, is not to say what you actually want, but to say "just enough" to get what you want. The idea being that someone else with better connections can then be crowned with having the "brainwave" that made it all happen

Long live KB, Hurrah !, Hurrah !, Hurrah ! :yes:

[Billy]

HaHa , i find that odd too, as my blatherings on here seem to have more impact than through any official channels....... :-)

The trick to anyone that post comments on KB, is not to say what you actually want, but to say "just enough" to get what you want. The idea being that someone else with better connections can then be crowned with having the "brainwave" that made it all happen

Long live KB, Hurrah !, Hurrah !, Hurrah ! :yes:

Really!!! What has changed due to your ramblings on KB that you haben't achieved by ringing me????

[codgyoleracer]

Really!!! What has changed due to your ramblings on KB that you haben't achieved by ringing me????

Yeah I know, i gotta ring you too, but thats just cos your old and might forget

[RobGassit]

"I'm sure there would be a handful of bucket boys that would be open to slapping in a stock 450 into their flash as setups for shits and giggles. There must be a myriad of NSR/RGV/KR/tzr rolling frames sitting in sheds that could happily be used. Again one could do it in an evening swap out of one frame into another.."

If half of you crazy bucket tinkers actually put proper engines into those high end frames the F3 wouldn't be scratching for numbers. Buckets turned when rs125 frames were being used, stick a good donk in it and come mix it on a real race track!!!!

That's pretty brave of you Neil, poking those Bouqet dudes with a pointed stick like that.

[Muzzab]

That's pretty brave of you Neil, poking those Bouqet dudes with a pointed stick like that.

South Island Bucket guy's don't understand the comment, what's wrong with racing at Ruapuna, Levels, Methven, Greymouth etc???
My RGV-FXR 150 is a hoot to ride. Mate round the corner has what you are talking about, a RGV-450 for F3, it's really cool.

[Bert]

If half of you crazy bucket tinkers actually put proper engines into those high end frames the F3 wouldn't be scratching for numbers. Buckets turned when rs125 frames were being used, stick a good donk in it and come mix it on a real race track!!!!

Just for you Chappy: bucket frame to good use??
bit out of box's from under the house...


269138269139

after reading rules again; it will not conform to superlite regs as its not a production frame (therefore not a production motorcycle).
shame really but great for track day fun..
Spose I should write another letter and find out for sure.
maybe a 450 is warranted...



QUICK ANSWER IS ......NOPE; DOSE NOT MEET superlite regs SO NO GO...
put the motor under the house again for another +15years...
(not sure how you can compete on a +25year old 250cc in a production frame against a brand new 400cc RZ/banshee in a RS sp "Production frame"... or a SV650 in custom frame...).
Stick to buckets me thinks (even playing field).

[neil_cb125t]

Just for you Chappy: bucket frame to good use??
bit out of box's from under the house...


269138269139

after reading rules again; it will not conform to superlite regs as its not a production frame (therefore not a production motorcycle).
shame really but great for track day fun..
Spose I should write a letter and find out for sure.

maybe a 450 is warranted...

for sure!!!

[richban]

So the previous roadrace commissioner was really keen on introducing this class,But never got the opportunity,

Possible specs would be,

ENGINES: Stock, Suspension including triple clamps and shock linkages: Open,

Frame and swing arm: Must be from the original machine IE YZF/CRF etc, Bodywork: Open, Exhaust: Slip on only, Fuel: Pump gas only max octane 98

Has yet too be discussed amongst the commission members,But we would be keen too hear what the competitors think.



Might have more joy with a super-mono class. Everything open but has to be a single and run on pump gas. But that is basically F3 anyway. Would live to build one. Its on the list. from what i have seen of the dirt bike conversions they cost lots and don't go as good as say an NSR MC21 with a 450 500 whatever. Much cheaper to bug an engine in a roller.

Oh and my bike almost done. Will be riding it this weekend. A dirt engine would fit really easy. But I like the little engines so a 250 would be my choice.

269149

[Ivan]

Same old problem, without Pro-Twins/125GP there's no inbetween production (Why should you have to make some drastic mods to be competitive, which are beyond suspension/pipe/rear sets etc etc)/realistically priced national class before you are forced to ride 600's.

Formula 450 is a good idea. However ask Scott Moir about replacing valves. MX Motor's are not designed for constant high rev's. I believe he had issue, but thats TBC by him.

i think he struck problems after chasing horsepower once again tbc by him up until then it was a good bike, A modern standered fuel injected 450 should be pretty good the supermoto boys seem to do allgood on them and after having spent alot of time at motox i think the bikes recieve more a hiding there than they would on the road most of race they held bouncing of limiters they still wont be the cheapest tho but a good 2010 fuel injected yammy be around 7-8k roughly new piston in it make sure your changing oil etc should last you awhile the 450s are quite durable

[Ivan]

if this class took off id look at getting another 450 to build one if supermoto was big in new zealand still id have my 450 kitted out as a motard and turn it back as a motox bike out of all the bikes ive rode my rs125 was the best handling bike ive owned and out of the box the 2011 yz450f is my 2nd favourite bike ive owned the frame is amazing ive always thought it responds real well and would be fun on the road

[budda]

if this class took off id look at getting another 450 to build one if supermoto was big in new zealand still id have my 450 kitted out as a motard and turn it back as a motox bike out of all the bikes ive rode my rs125 was the best handling bike ive owned and out of the box the 2011 yz450f is my 2nd favourite bike ive owned the frame is amazing ive always thought it responds real well and would be fun on the road

Well said, that man ....... funnily enough, you could buy BRAND NEW Yamahas, beautifully converted, in the States !

[scott411]

i think he struck problems after chasing horsepower once again tbc by him up until then it was a good bike, A modern standered fuel injected 450 should be pretty good the supermoto boys seem to do allgood on them and after having spent alot of time at motox i think the bikes recieve more a hiding there than they would on the road most of race they held bouncing of limiters they still wont be the cheapest tho but a good 2010 fuel injected yammy be around 7-8k roughly new piston in it make sure your changing oil etc should last you awhile the 450s are quite durable

motard is way harder on a the 450's than mx is, i know most of the top motard boys have had major blow ups on thier 450's, the long term high rpm running you get on a road race track is alot difference to short spurts on the rev limiter,

[Shaun]

motard is way harder on a the 450's than mx is, i know most of the top motard boys have had major blow ups on thier 450's, the long term high rpm running you get on a road race track is alot difference to short spurts on the rev limiter,



2 450 mx bikes converted for road racing blew up big time todayhere in ozzy bringing down 3 other riders in the oil

These motors are not designed for road racing rpm usage

[richban]

These motors are not designed for road racing rpm usage

I have heard this quite a few times on lots of threads. What bits are not designed for rev in these engine's specifically? Engines blow all the time for one reason of another. If people think they can bung an old used MX engine in a bike and go racing all day everyday then yeah sure, it might leave oil on the track and a dent in the wallet. There are ways to build engines and maintain them. Push the limit, find the weak point, and then fix it.

[scott411]

I have heard this quite a few times on lots of threads. What bits are not designed for rev in these engine's specifically? Engines blow all the time for one reason of another. If people think they can bung an old used MX engine in a bike and go racing all day everyday then yeah sure, it might leave oil on the track and a dent in the wallet. There are ways to build engines and maintain them. Push the limit, find the weak point, and then fix it.

mainly rods and valve trains that let go, esp rods on the 450's, on a mx track even the top pros do not rev them like you do on the long straights of a road race track, and with very close ratio gearboxes it is hard to get them geared any taller, when they let go they go big, and take cranks, barrell and cases with them, meaning expensive rebuilds,

120km/h is considered stupid fast on a mx track, (very rare to use top gear on a 450 mx bike on a mx track) where it is only a slow to medium speed corner on a road race track,

[RDjase]

Yea,

The black one at the vic club meetings is Scotty Moirs bike,RS125 chassis with CRF450 donk,Not really what we intended,Although a feild full of those would be cool as well
Is that bike the one that Brent Symes built?

[scott411]

I did look at building one of these a few years back, but there was a story linked posted on here about someone running one in the states, and the rebuilds it needed,

i would think you would be doing a rod at least once a year if you were doing a full national and club series season, and probably valves as well, these would not last many seasons with out regular maintainence,

The keep it standard idea is a good one, but MNZ has not has a great history of keeping these rules in check, although it seems to have improved a little bit recently when was the last time you saw a bike pulled down,

I am not going after anyone here but to put things into perspective, I race a speedway car, at the NZ champs when i qualified for the finals i had to present my car, without rocker covers, so they could check the valve gear which is restricted in my class, i also had to present my carb so it could be measured, they did that for all 20 cars that were qualifed for the finals, all 60 cars that turned up had to be weighed, and measured externally before you could start qualifing, (and my SNZ liceince is cheaper than my MNZ one before anyone asks)

[Billy]

Is that bike the one that Brent Symes built?

Yip,I'm pretty sure it is Brents bike

[RDjase]

Yip,I'm pretty sure it is Brents bike

That saves me trying to find Brent to see about it, he moved house and was overseas last time I tried to get hold hold him

[budda]

mainly rods and valve trains that let go, esp rods on the 450's, on a mx track even the top pros do not rev them like you do on the long straights of a road race track, and with very close ratio gearboxes it is hard to get them geared any taller, when they let go they go big, and take cranks, barrell and cases with them, meaning expensive rebuilds,

120km/h is considered stupid fast on a mx track, (very rare to use top gear on a 450 mx bike on a mx track) where it is only a slow to medium speed corner on a road race track,

And I think THAT is why the Yanks based their "new" bikes on the Enduro versions ( WRF, RMX, CRF-X etc etc ), to get the better gearbox internal and final drive ratios - Oh, and the electric legs aint a bad thing either !!!!!!

But lets face it, we do NOT have mega-long and ultra-fast tracks here in Godzone - best way to get a Kiwi to do something is tell him
it cant be done ..........

[Shorty_925]

That saves me trying to find Brent to see about it, he moved house and was overseas last time I tried to get hold hold him

He's around, playing bicycle polo.

[Shorty_925]

(and my SNZ liceince is cheaper than my MNZ one before anyone asks)

A work mate cant believe how much bikes cost in terms of licence & entry fees. Then again I cant believe how much meth his Super Saloon goes through in a race :eek5:

[RDjase]

(and my SNZ liceince is cheaper than my MNZ one before anyone asks)



It should be, you only turn one way :innocent:

[Shaun]

But lets face it, we do NOT have mega-long and ultra-fast tracks here in Godzone - best way to get a Kiwi to do something is tell him
it cant be done ..........




Sorry Budda, but all road race tracks are a shit load longer than mx streights

The swingarm angle on MX bikes is wrong for road racing use

The shock lingage is wrong for road use

MX bikes are built for the dirt, not for road racing

[budda]

Sorry Budda, but all road race tracks are a shit load longer than mx streights

The swingarm angle on MX bikes is wrong for road racing use

The shock lingage is wrong for road use

MX bikes are built for the dirt, not for road racing

How many of the bikes available new and used for road-racing in New Zealand ARE specifically designed and built for it Shaun ?

[SWERVE]

A work mate cant believe how much bikes cost in terms of licence & entry fees. Then again I cant believe how much meth his Super Saloon goes through in a race :eek5:

And if you race cars such as speedway etc you get events every few weeks during the season that attract crowds of 3/400 + who pay $10+ a head to watch................. Spectator pays for the privalage of watching the racers.

We race bike where we get 5 events a year where spectators pay............... Racers pay for privalage of racing...... spectator gets a bargain!

Its all relevent............. look at the exposure/media/advertising a speedway event gets compared to us.
Plus the family can turn up..... purchase there evening meal (hot dogs) sit on their arse and see all the action.............. and out of workin hours when they are in "leisure time" mode.

Soon as we start running EVENTS not race meetings............. it may start to change..................... RANT OVER

[budda]

And if you race cars such as speedway etc you get events every few weeks during the season that attract crowds of 3/400 + who pay $10+ a head to watch................. Spectator pays for the privalage of watching the racers.

We race bike where we get 5 events a year where spectators pay............... Racers pay for privalage of racing...... spectator gets a bargain!

Its all relevent............. look at the exposure/media/advertising a speedway event gets compared to us.
Plus the family can turn up..... purchase there evening meal (hot dogs) sit on their arse and see all the action.............. and out of workin hours when they are in "leisure time" mode.

Soon as we start running EVENTS not race meetings............. it may start to change..................... RANT OVER

Thanks for that ...........

[Shaun]

How many of the bikes available new and used for road-racing in New Zealand ARE specifically designed and built for it Shaun ?



WOW BUdda, I will let others who understand ROADRACING properlly awnser that for them selves mate

Its fukin hard to make a square wheel go around smoothly


The sport needs ramping up, NOT dumming down even now to get the little boys ( In this case it will be cheap arse old men) out there

Focus on the 600 and 1000 class to promote the sport proffessionaly and let the clubs deal with the club scene classes

But not that much point in discussing on here eh, as NO race bike riders or team managers or sponsors or accessorie suppliers or officual sor media people or whanabe new racers come on here eh, so as per usual Im just typing shit I guess.

as you were mate

[Kickaha]

WOW BUdda, I will let others who understand ROADRACING properlly awnser that for them selves mate

So what you're saying is you cant?

[Shaun]

So what you're saying is you cant?



you got it

[steve74]

Only just noticed this thread, I love the idea of a 450 mx based class. I built this last year For "shits and giggles" raced it at the greymouth street race in f3 and had a ball. A absolute hoot to ride and owes me about $4200 so far, gearing could be an issue on a long track but for street racing its awesome.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s223/kiwisteve74/NSR450F%20project/P1010354.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s223/kiwisteve74/NSR450F%20project/P1010402.jpg

[RobGassit]

Only just noticed this thread, I love the idea of a 450 mx based class. I built this last year For "shits and giggles" raced it at the greymouth street race in f3 and had a ball. A absolute hoot to ride and owes me about $4200 so far, gearing could be an issue on a long track but for street racing its awesome.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s223/kiwisteve74/NSR450F project/P1010354.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s223/kiwisteve74/NSR450F project/P1010402.jpg

That's a seriously tidy setup. Care to share any details on the build?

[Mental Trousers]

Only just noticed this thread, I love the idea of a 450 mx based class. I built this last year For "shits and giggles" raced it at the greymouth street race in f3 and had a ball. A absolute hoot to ride and owes me about $4200 so far, gearing could be an issue on a long track but for street racing its awesome.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s223/kiwisteve74/NSR450F%20project/P1010354.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s223/kiwisteve74/NSR450F%20project/P1010402.jpg

Mate, you really should've done a blog on building that. It looks like you've done a superb job :niceone:

[steve74]

Honda NSR250 MC28 Chassis
Honda CRF450x motor (standard at this stage)
Honda RS125 NX4 rear shock reworked to suit
Honda CBR600rr front end reworked to suit
Honda RSW250 GP fairing

It started out as a ktm525 in an Aprillia RS250 chassis for BEARS racing but I couldn't find a good cheep motor and the RS was kind of frowned upon by those BEARS guys I asked, even without the Suzuki engine. Coincidently my mate did some major damage to his CRF at a cross country and he parted it out. Being 4 stroke and electric start I was keen to shoehorn it in. I decided to keep it all Honda and picked up the chassis at a reasonable price, the front forks had been lying under a mates bed for 5 years so I claimed those. It's amazing how everything just lined up, there was a bit of maths involved working out centre of gravity and front/rear weight bias but most of it was just slapped together. The RS shock is a new addition and I'm yet to test it, I've been away following Motogp bikes round Europe for the last 4 months so have only just now returned home to spend time on it. It's a work in progress, engine mods when time and money allow will include a complete 450R flowed head and valve/cam job with all the go fast bits and a slipper clutch is on the wish list too.

I guess a 450 in an RS125 chassis would be better but I don't like being cramped up too much, I've raced and collected 250 2 strokes most of my life so I'm comfortable on it and it handles great. I had a budget of 5 grand which is why it took a few years to find the right parts at the right prices.

It was just for "shits and giggles" - but I'm sure it's going to cost me more!!!:facepalm:


Cheers, Steve

[crazy man]

l'm starting my new f3 projected next week

[Pumba]

l'm starting my new f3 projected next week

Does that mean you have finished some of your others:confused:

Looking forward to it all the same

[crazy man]

Does that mean you have finished some of your others:confused:

Looking forward to it all the samehumm nealy .l know l jump the gun all the time but wile l'm feeling good and can kind of still race l better start it. going for 70 to 75 hp at no more the 85kg's so like l grunty bucket l guess

[steve74]

Jeepers, I got 115kg and about 45 I reckon:no: still, I get as much fun out of tinkering now days that I do out of riding.

[feral1]

Only just noticed this thread, I love the idea of a 450 mx based class. I built this last year For "shits and giggles" raced it at the greymouth street race in f3 and had a ball. A absolute hoot to ride and owes me about $4200 so far, gearing could be an issue on a long track but for street racing its awesome.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s223/kiwisteve74/NSR450F%20project/P1010354.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s223/kiwisteve74/NSR450F%20project/P1010402.jpg

Looking for someone to trash the shit out of it steve..??...

[steve74]

Looking for someone to trash the shit out of it steve..??...


You mean thrash it mate? Or trash it? You can take it for a thrash anytime mate.

[Mental Trousers]

This is the business

http://www.cycleonline.com.au/2012/10/09/yrd-releases-yamaha-yz450gp-model-ready-to-race/

[Cleve]

This is the business

http://www.cycleonline.com.au/2012/10/09/yrd-releases-yamaha-yz450gp-model-ready-to-race/

Just saw that and thought - GORGEOUS - I want one!

[brads]

LATE BRAKING NEWS - REVIEWS - FORUM
-- YZ450GP Road Racer

Have you ever wanted to get into road racing but were put off by the high cost and technical barriers?

Now there are no excuses.

The YZ450GP uses the YZ450F MX bike as a platform and is easily affordable at just $16,625 inc GST.

The bike qualifies to race in the newly formed GP450 class that is rapidly becoming popular around the globe. This entry level class makes use of relatively inexpensive MX bikes that are available from nearly every manufacturer. These models are lightly modified to become genuine road racers that are capable of similar lap times as 125GP bikes at most circuits.

Yamaha Racing Developments (YRD) boss John Redding's goal is to attract newcomers to road racing by offering a fun and affordable entry level race bike. "The 450GP class is aimed at encouraging newcomers to the sport. With the help of Yamaha Motor Australia, the RRP of the YZ450GP machine is subsidised to help competitors enter this new and exciting race class. Plus if racers are serious about competing and have an existing YZ450F, we can supply kits for them to build themselves," adds Redding.

YRD is offering for sale a limited quantity of ready to ride 2013 YZ450GPs fitted with the road race kit as shown in the above photo. All the MX componentry removed from the new YZ450F 2013 donor bike is included.

Retrofitting the MX gear is possible at any time because the GP kit does not require any permanent modifications to install.

The race kit that transforms an MX bike into a road racer

The kit comprises:

Marzocchi 43mm USD forks (fitted with fully adjustable MUPO racing cartridge kit and springs)
Modified shock
Triple clamps, handlebars, footrests, brake pedal and gear shifter
Cast alloy 17in wheels
Dunlop production racing tyres Front: 120/70ZR17 D211 GP-A Med-Soft Rear: 150/60ZR17 D209 KP 523 Med-Soft
Full fibreglass road race bodywork kit (in white gelcoat – not painted) with mounting brackets
Brembo front brake assembly
Tacho/laptimer
Rear stand pickups
Each YZ450GP is supplied built up ready to ride with a selection of 14, 15 and 16 tooth front sprockets.

Cost including GST ex YRD in Melbourne is $16,625.00.

Please forward all enquiries to John Redding at YRD on yrd@bigpond.com or 0438 105 303

[Tony.OK]

Looks mint................but at $21k NZ without delivery I can't see too many newcomers rushing out to get one.

[Ivan]

i got that model yzf at home think it would look cool with that kit on it

[lostinflyz]

The YRD kit being sold in aussie is just the Beon Automotive kit (450gp.com). It is rather expensive, but does have lots of mods and is a straight bolt up job.

There are much cheaper equally effective methods of doing similar mods, but do require more hands on work/machining. i'd love to build one or help out to get a couple underway, i have 90% of the bits you would need (incl the fairings shown on the 450/YRD/Beon kit - they are essentially universal fairings with bracket kits) and a decent grasp of the knowledge. Send me a PM!!!

[Johnnyc34]

After reading this thread that i stumbled upon lead me to do some research!

http://www.motoconcepts.com.au/2012/07/fx-450gp-class/

These rules make perfect sense. This concept makes perfect sense. This class is working in other parts of globe. I checked the results in the auzzie series and the 450 mxers converts are holding there own and getting results. Road racers, don't fear the dirt bike. Iv'e thrashed a motard round the tracks of the South island harder than most, never had a mechanical fault yet! They are that bullet proof if left standard which I have done.

Going to save some $$$, build one of these things. Would prefer the kit as it seems to be proven. Seems to me that it needs to be at least given a proper chance so any handling issues can be sorted with affordable mods developed. Kiwis are very clever people.

Keep an open mind people. I believe this may eventually happen weather we like it or not. We don't want to get left behind here in NZ and give a future races a miss opportunity to race in a proper controlled class. As far as controlling rules go, people will soon learn not to mod the motors, they are already highly strung and trying to make em go faster people will just loose there reliability and a national series would govern itself real quick!

Now in saying that, I know nothing about nothing, but I do believe if nothings is done, we will get the same result, diminshing younger riders. These things have the wank factor, they can look at it in there lowered hiace van and think they are pro racers.

Thats my piece. Happy days.

[budda]

After reading this thread that i stumbled upon lead me to do some research!

http://www.motoconcepts.com.au/2012/07/fx-450gp-class/

These rules make perfect sense. This concept makes perfect sense. This class is working in other parts of globe. I checked the results in the auzzie series and the 450 mxers converts are holding there own and getting results. Road racers, don't fear the dirt bike. Iv'e thrashed a motard round the tracks of the South island harder than most, never had a mechanical fault yet! They are that bullet proof if left standard which I have done.

Going to save some $$$, build one of these things. Would prefer the kit as it seems to be proven. Seems to me that it needs to be at least given a proper chance so any handling issues can be sorted with affordable mods developed. Kiwis are very clever people.

Keep an open mind people. I believe this may eventually happen weather we like it or not. We don't want to get left behind here in NZ and give a future races a miss opportunity to race in a proper controlled class. As far as controlling rules go, people will soon learn not to mod the motors, they are already highly strung and trying to make em go faster people will just loose there reliability and a national series would govern itself real quick!

Now in saying that, I know nothing about nothing, but I do believe if nothings is done, we will get the same result, diminshing younger riders. These things have the wank factor, they can look at it in there lowered hiace van and think they are pro racers.

Thats my piece. Happy days.

Jeeeesus Johnny, who hijacked your log-in details ?

[Johnnyc34]

I'm not sure, but some one who has a few more clues than me! Haha, was all me my friend. More I think about it the more I want to make it happen.

[budda]

I'm not sure, but some one who has a few more clues than me! Haha, was all me my friend. More I think about it the more I want to make it happen.

Have I ever put you crook ?

[MarcusWyatt]

Might have more joy with a super-mono class. Everything open but has to be a single and run on pump gas. But that is basically F3 anyway. Would live to build one. Its on the list. from what i have seen of the dirt bike conversions they cost lots and don't go as good as say an NSR MC21 with a 450 500 whatever. Much cheaper to bug an engine in a roller.

Oh and my bike almost done. Will be riding it this weekend. A dirt engine would fit really easy. But I like the little engines so a 250 would be my choice.

269149

I agree here. Back in South Africa we had a class called Super Single. Basically the only rule was single cylinder 4 stroke 500cc or 2 stroke 250cc. You could use whatever rolling chassis you wanted. The class was very well supported and a lot of fun. What made it quite cheap was that there was an engineer that build frames/swingarm from steel that fitted a xl/xr/xt motors. He sold these at a very reasonable price. So you ended up building a nice handling racer for not to much.

Another, very successful class were a Production class of either a 250cc 2 stroke (NSR/TZR/RGV) or 4 stroke 400cc (CBR/ZXR/GSXR/FZR/etc) which was so successful you had to qualify to make the start grid.

[budda]

I agree here. Back in South Africa we had a class called Super Single. Basically the only rule was single cylinder 4 stroke 500cc or 2 stroke 250cc. You could use whatever rolling chassis you wanted. The class was very well supported and a lot of fun. What made it quite cheap was that there was an engineer that build frames/swingarm from steel that fitted a xl/xr/xt motors. He sold these at a very reasonable price. So you ended up building a nice handling racer for not to much.

Another, very successful class were a Production class of either a 250cc 2 stroke (NSR/TZR/RGV) or 4 stroke 400cc (CBR/ZXR/GSXR/FZR/etc) which was so successful you had to qualify to make the start grid.

All sounds like good 'ol F3 .............

[MarcusWyatt]

After reading more about the Aussie FX-450GP class, I'm starting to like the idea.


The YRD kit being sold in aussie is just the Beon Automotive kit (450gp.com). It is rather expensive, but does have lots of mods and is a straight bolt up job.

There are much cheaper equally effective methods of doing similar mods, but do require more hands on work/machining. i'd love to build one or help out to get a couple underway, i have 90% of the bits you would need (incl the fairings shown on the 450/YRD/Beon kit - they are essentially universal fairings with bracket kits) and a decent grasp of the knowledge. Send me a PM!!!

I agree that most of the kit needed should be easily sourced or found 2nd hand. The hard parts would be Triple clamp for getting the right rake and trail. The only thing that bothers me is the rule around not being able to change the rear suspension linkage or shock. When looking at the Aussie FX-450GP race bikes in the pics, you can physically see the swing arm angle is all wrong. Those things are not going to turn!!!! :eek5:

[budda]

After reading more about the Aussie FX-450GP class, I'm starting to like the idea.



I agree that most of the kit needed should be easily sourced or found 2nd hand. The hard parts would be Triple clamp for getting the right rake and trail. The only thing that bothers me is the rule around not being able to change the rear suspension linkage or shock. When looking at the Aussie FX-450GP race bikes in the pics, you can physically see the swing arm angle is all wrong. Those things are not going to turn!!!! :eek5:

aaah, the theory fairy has paid a visit !!!!! Agreed, the angle is not optimal by the latest standards - but experience has shown that they DO work, they DO turn. The limits are ONLY as a cost minimisation measure - limit the mods, limit the $'s. Its a piece of piss to find reasons NOT to try something - Kiwis have a history of making sub-optimal things work pretty bloody well - look at some of the bikes our hero's have kicked arse on in the past, not all have been "right" or the latest up-to-date technology - in fact most have been things others have tried and discarded as not suitable !!!!!!!!!!!

[Johnnyc34]

aaah, the theory fairy has paid a visit !!!!! Agreed, the angle is not optimal by the latest standards - but experience has shown that they DO work, they DO turn. The limits are ONLY as a cost minimisation measure - limit the mods, limit the $'s. Its a piece of piss to find reasons NOT to try something - Kiwis have a history of making sub-optimal things work pretty bloody well - look at some of the bikes our hero's have kicked arse on in the past, not all have been "right" or the latest up-to-date technology - in fact most have been things others have tried and discarded as not suitable !!!!!!!!!!!

Completely agree there Budda. So what if they don't turn in 100% ! That is something that can be sorted as time goes on. Here is how I see it. SV650 took a few years to get developed. Every other class to a few years to get developed. Here we have a fleet of these bikes available nation wide. Anyone that says they are going bang and can't handle the revs....one word for you, FAK off! Well serviced and kept completely standard with change gearing and muffler change they are sweet as. I did 28 hours on my motard before I stripped it down. The engine was in perfect order, it spent a stack load of time pinned on the rev limiter at Teretonga. 28 hours was a heap of riding on the track. Over a year and half of riding it every month. Bottom to top end rebuild in parts appox retail $1000. Bit more for your labour if your not inclined to do it yourself. This is the future to get the bunny chases into our sport. There is a huge amount of 30 - 40 year old age group who's bones are getting tired of bouncing about over rocks and hills. There are hundreds of these 450cc bikes on the market at the moment. Any were from 3k - through to 14k. I don't see a massive amount cheap SV650 or EX250 ready to race. How ever I do see alot of MX bikes with the potential to be converted with ease. I really believe you would have a hole in your head to think badly of this concept. So what if a few people have been high sided overseas. Hows that the bikes fault? Last time I watched any form of racing I saw alot of bikes highside! So what if a few have gone bang and dumped some oil on the track.... I've see a lot of other bikes do that too! And I tell you what, my bet is they weren't standard engine, some muppet that wasn't skilled enough thought he would hot up his bike to beat the talanted rider with the stock engine in front of him!

There is way to much for this than against. I'm going to build one. It may take some time to pull the resources all togther but I am going to do it. Hope some others follow.

[budda]

Completely agree there Budda. So what if they don't turn in 100% ! That is something that can be sorted as time goes on. Here is how I see it. SV650 took a few years to get developed. Every other class to a few years to get developed. Here we have a fleet of these bikes available nation wide. Anyone that says they are going bang and can't handle the revs....one word for you, FAK off! Well serviced and kept completely standard with change gearing and muffler change they are sweet as. I did 28 hours on my motard before I stripped it down. The engine was in perfect order, it spent a stack load of time pinned on the rev limiter at Teretonga. 28 hours was a heap of riding on the track. Over a year and half of riding it every month. Bottom to top end rebuild in parts appox retail $1000. Bit more for your labour if your not inclined to do it yourself. This is the future to get the bunny chases into our sport. There is a huge amount of 30 - 40 year old age group who's bones are getting tired of bouncing about over rocks and hills. There are hundreds of these 450cc bikes on the market at the moment. Any were from 3k - through to 14k. I don't see a massive amount cheap SV650 or EX250 ready to race. How ever I do see alot of MX bikes with the potential to be converted with ease. I really believe you would have a hole in your head to think badly of this concept. So what if a few people have been high sided overseas. Hows that the bikes fault? Last time I watched any form of racing I saw alot of bikes highside! So what if a few have gone bang and dumped some oil on the track.... I've see a lot of other bikes do that too! And I tell you what, my bet is they weren't standard engine, some muppet that wasn't skilled enough thought he would hot up his bike to beat the talanted rider with the stock engine in front of him!

There is way to much for this than against. I'm going to build one. It may take some time to pull the resources all togther but I am going to do it. Hope some others follow.

Lets face it, SV650's in both modded and ProTwin forms took over F3 - and THEY burst if not maintained !!!!!!!!!! and THEY have spit the odd pilot down the road too. All I'm saying is that, like JohnnyC, I see far more positives than negatives - the only thing stopping this from getting a head of steam is nay-sayers whose knowledge is mostly based on what they read on forums. The ones that HAVE been built already, here in UnZud, worked well with very little development ( and that is not a criticism )

EVERY Distributor has at LEAST one suitable model in their range, and TurdMe is chocka with suitable steeds, mainly destined to "win" their local trailride and terrorise beachgoers with no muffler, and turning Joe Public even further against US ALL - do the Sport a favour andconsider building one, if only to keep it out of the hands of the dickheads !!!!!!!!!!!!! And if it IS as bad as you think, sell it as a wrong-bike then !!!!!!!

[Johnnyc34]

....out of the way. Who can help me out with the right bits and some knowledge!

[budda]

....out of the way. Who can help me out with the right bits and some knowledge!

One of Life's mysteries : anyone else ever wonder why some people ask questions when they KNOW the answer ?

[Johnnyc34]

Well after street race next month we shall make it happen!

[lostinflyz]

i've been offering to help someone build one of these for an age. if you want to do it flick me a PM.

[neil_cb125t]

The YRD kit being sold in aussie is just the Beon Automotive kit (450gp.com). It is rather expensive, but does have lots of mods and is a straight bolt up job.

There are much cheaper equally effective methods of doing similar mods, but do require more hands on work/machining. i'd love to build one or help out to get a couple underway, i have 90% of the bits you would need (incl the fairings shown on the 450/YRD/Beon kit - they are essentially universal fairings with bracket kits) and a decent grasp of the knowledge. Send me a PM!!!

This sort of thing just shows what can be done, I do not agree with adding classes to an already saturated market, particularly taking bikes out of one class to start their own. In the VERY short space of time I have been doing it, watering down classes does not work at all, look at 1000 and 600 pro-stock or what ever it was called. Rubbish waste of time now cancelled. Look at the Post classics attempt changing from 2 classes to 3, lesser entries than ever. my opinion is to return to F1 F2 and F3 only, more competitors in each class - would we rather have 30 people in 3 classes battling it out than 15 or less?

Those who were at Wanganui saw how effective this type of machine was - Scotty M smashed us all on his 450 single. And they defo can be built cheaper than the Aussie price. Time is your killer - tim, glen W, Gimpy can tell you how much sticking power you need to build something different..... mines taken 2 years, 1 year of building and 1 year of researching and saving.....shame they changed the rules in F3 during that time but thats another thread!

[jellywrestler]

Rubbish waste of time now cancelled. I wouldn't be as harsh as that, it gave people an option which those same people asked for ran ok for a while till the people who build the bikes voted with their builds and it became redundant for most

[neil_cb125t]

I wouldn't be as harsh as that, it gave people an option which those same people asked for ran ok for a while till the people who build the bikes voted with their builds and it became redundant for most

yeah probably a bit harsh, it was an option, I understood its principles but thought it would not catch on. Your right, people chose to not build a cheaper watered down version......if we had rules and classes that didn't change every other year then it would be easier for those to establish themselves into the class they desired.

When Mr 600 stock class was made the rules were ohlins rear shock is ok, then the next year they said no ohlins shocks, so guys had to buy std ones! hilarious!

I suspect more big singles and experimental 2 smokers will grace us with their presence in F3 - this is a good thing.

[budda]

This sort of thing just shows what can be done, I do not agree with adding classes to an already saturated market, particularly taking bikes out of one class to start their own. In the VERY short space of time I have been doing it, watering down classes does not work at all, look at 1000 and 600 pro-stock or what ever it was called. Rubbish waste of time now cancelled. Look at the Post classics attempt changing from 2 classes to 3, lesser entries than ever. my opinion is to return to F1 F2 and F3 only, more competitors in each class - would we rather have 30 people in 3 classes battling it out than 15 or less?

Those who were at Wanganui saw how effective this type of machine was - Scotty M smashed us all on his 450 single. And they defo can be built cheaper than the Aussie price. Time is your killer - tim, glen W, Gimpy can tell you how much sticking power you need to build something different..... mines taken 2 years, 1 year of building and 1 year of researching and saving.....shame they changed the rules in F3 during that time but thats another thread!

So in the last 2 years, what changed in the rules that so disadvantaged you ? I ask only because effectively NOTHING has changed ..............

[neil_cb125t]

So in the last 2 years, what changed in the rules that so disadvantaged you ? I ask only because effectively NOTHING has changed ..............

400cc 2 strokes.....?

[eelracing]

400cc 2 strokes.....?


Never mind Neil.If it all helps my dear old Nan once sat me down when I was a nipper and gave me this pearl of wisdom.

Sonny,someday you will make a girl very happy,for a short period of time.
Then she'll leave you and be with new men who are ten times better than you could ever hope to be.
These men are called two stroke racers.

[neil_cb125t]

Never mind Neil.If it all helps my dear old Nan once sat me down when I was a nipper and gave me this pearl of wisdom.

Sonny,someday you will make a girl very happy,for a short period of time.
Then she'll leave you and be with new men who are ten times better than you could ever hope to be.
These men are called two stroke racers.

Funny the airforce has the same quote - only there called pilots.

I wish I was one, sound much better than my tractor

[Johnnyc34]

Right.....

Read very carefully! I will admit, I am not the most intelligent man in the race paddock. But it seems to me everyone has missed the point.

Moto GP has 5 brands
Superbikes has 5 brands
The motorcycle industry on a whole has 5 main brands who are road racing competitively

In our country:

We have a 250 Production class that has 2 main brands in it.

We have a 600cc and 1000 class that has 4 brands competing in it on a good week.

We have a f3 class that has an absolute rif rafe of different type of bikes. Not saying that's a bad thing. Just a massive mixture of bikes, competing on different levels which mainly comes down to $$ they invest.

Hope your with me so far........

So.....here we have a concept. Take a production 450 MX bike that the 5 main brands compete in superbike and moto gp, (they all make a model that fits, is approx same weight and horse power). The general bike fan that has a toy in the garage he rides on the road, reads the kiwi rider mag and bike rider mag already has a connection with these brands. Take some bloke that builds and f3 bike out of some random engine and chassis he mocked up in his shed over winter, the general public that rides bikes has no emotional connection to that, as cool and interesting as it is 90% of our spectators just can't relate to that. To them it looks like a lot of work and energy to build and get involved if they ever wanted to. Instant put off.

The concept behind moto 450 class, you take brand of motorcycles that the general motorcycle population has a brand awareness with. Something they can relate to. Most of them have that brand in there shed or they rode it to the track to watch us race. They get excited by this want to get involved. Maybe get a bike themselves and have a crack.

So they come along and watch this 450 class in action, lets say there ten on the track. They find out, all you need is a 450 MX bike, just like what there mates have got...they can relate to this, they find out that there is a simple way of getting this machine on the track, by fitting up a road kit. Wheels, brakes, suspension bolt ons, fairing and rear sets, buying some gear. BOLT ON! SIMPLE! QUICK. EASY. We live in a nano second society. People these days need things to happen fast to stay interested, especially young people. Must happen instantly at least to start with to keep them interested and involved. Best part is this won't cost them 15k, or 25 k to get involved. Its could be done as cheaply as $5 6k. They look cool, just like the GP bikes we see on tele, once again something they can relate to, branding and looks.

THERE IS A MUCH BIGGER PICTURE HERE!! MOTORCYCLING IS ON THE DECLINE!! THIS ISN'T ABOUT US!! WE ARE ALREADY RACING AND BEING INVOLVED! THIS IS ABOUT AN AFFORDABLE FORM OF RACING THAT REACHES THE EMOTIONS OF A MUCH BROADER RANGE OF PEOPLE! PEOPLE THAT CAN RELATE TO BRAND AWARENESS. PEOPLE THAT CAN RELATE TO A MACHINE THAT LOOKS LIKE WHAT THE SEE ON TELE! BUT IS WITH IN REACH FINANCIALLY FOR THE COST OF A CAR AND WITH A LITTLE INSTRUCTION AND MAINTENANCE WONT COST A FORTUNE TO RUN! YOU WON"T NEED A SPECIALIZED RACE MECHANIC TO REBUILD AND SERVICE AS EVERY BIKE SHOP HAS MECHANICS THAT CAN SERVICE THESE ENGINES AND REPAIR. MUCH BIGGER PICTURE PEOPLE!!

That's my rant on that side.

The other side of it from my point of view is we can have some serious fun. These wee bikes will be fast. Rules will be easy to enforce. Racing will be close as everyone one truly be on an equal playing field with out spending a fortune. Yes it will take a clever few of us to get the formula right. But we will get it right. It will be awesome.

That is all.

[budda]

400cc 2 strokes.....?

Been in there for at least the last 2 years - and now the Track is over-run with the things, no-one else can get a look in !!!!

[tail_end_charlie]

Right.....

Read very carefully! I will admit, I am not the most intelligent man in the race paddock. But it seems to me everyone has missed the point.

Moto GP has 5 brands 3 brands (Honda, Yamaha and Ducati, two of which are competative and CRT don't really count)
Superbikes has 5 brands 6 brands (Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Aprilla, Ducati, and BMW. No Yamaha in 2012 and probably none in 2013)
The motorcycle industry on a whole has 5 main brands 7 (Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Aprilla, BMW, KTM, Ducati) who are road racing competitively

In our country:

We have a 250 Production class that has 2 main brands in it. Well, 3 (Kawasaki, Honda, Hyosung) but nobody here races a Honda 250 and the new Kawaki is a 300. So yeah, thats one problem with the 250 proddie racing here at the moment

We have a 600cc and 1000 class that has 4 brands competing in it on a good week.

We have a f3 class that has an absolute rif rafe of different type of bikes. Not saying that's a bad thing. Just a massive mixture of bikes, competing on different levels which mainly comes down to $$ they invest.

Hope your with me so far........

So.....here we have a concept. Take a production 450 MX bike that the 5 main brands compete in superbike and moto gp not quite, see above, (they all make a model that fits, is approx same weight and horse power). The general bike fan that has a toy in the garage he rides on the road, reads the kiwi rider mag and bike rider mag already has a connection with these brands. Take some bloke that builds and f3 bike out of some random engine and chassis he mocked up in his shed over winter, the general public that rides bikes has no emotional connection to that, as cool and interesting as it is 90% of our spectators just can't relate to that. To them it looks like a lot of work and energy to build and get involved if they ever wanted to. Instant put off. I'll disagree personally with that statement, but I see the point you are trying to make.

The concept behind moto 450 class, you take brand of motorcycles that the general motorcycle population has a brand awareness with. Something they can relate to. Most of them have that brand in there shed or they rode it to the track to watch us race. They get excited by this want to get involved. Maybe get a bike themselves and have a crack.

So they come along and watch this 450 class in action, lets say there ten on the track. They find out, all you need is a 450 MX bike, just like what there mates have got...they can relate to this, they find out that there is a simple way of getting this machine on the track, by fitting up a road kit. Wheels, brakes, suspension bolt ons, fairing and rear sets, buying some gear. BOLT ON! SIMPLE! QUICK. EASY. If the thought of mating a certain engine in a different chassis with custom suspension and such that you get with SOME of the F3 bikes is a foreign concept to these people, I doubt they will be up to the task of modifying a MX bike to take to the track and race. And that is just to get it on the track, then you start trying to get the bike set-up and working well doing something completely different from its original intended purpose. Granted, I haven't tried to do this with an MX bike, but I think there is a little more to it than just buy some wheels and suspension and bolt them on.

We live in a nano second society. People these days need things to happen fast to stay interested, especially young people. Must happen instantly at least to start with to keep them interested and involved. Best part is this won't cost them 15k, or 25 k to get involved. Its could be done as cheaply as $5 6k. They look cool, just like the GP bikes we see on tele, once again something they can relate to, branding and looks. I have a feeling it won't be any cheaper than going out and buying a old SV and running it in Pro-twins/F3, and more expensive than going out and buying a Ninja 250 and racing it

THERE IS A MUCH BIGGER PICTURE HERE!! MOTORCYCLING IS ON THE DECLINE!! THIS ISN'T ABOUT US!! WE ARE ALREADY RACING AND BEING INVOLVED! THIS IS ABOUT AN AFFORDABLE FORM OF RACING THAT REACHES THE EMOTIONS OF A MUCH BROADER RANGE OF PEOPLE! PEOPLE THAT CAN RELATE TO BRAND AWARENESS. PEOPLE THAT CAN RELATE TO A MACHINE THAT LOOKS LIKE WHAT THE SEE ON TELE! They probably see a hell of a lot more superbikes/supersport bikes racing on TV than they do modified MX bikes. And I think that your putting too much emphasis on brand awareness/loyalty. Anybody who has a Honda 450 MX bike in the garage knows that the road racing isn't anything to do with his bike. BUT IS WITH IN REACH FINANCIALLY FOR THE COST OF A CAR AND WITH A LITTLE INSTRUCTION AND MAINTENANCE WONT COST A FORTUNE TO RUN! YOU WON"T NEED A SPECIALIZED RACE MECHANIC TO REBUILD AND SERVICE AS EVERY BIKE SHOP HAS MECHANICS THAT CAN SERVICE THESE ENGINES AND REPAIR. MUCH BIGGER PICTURE PEOPLE!!

That's my rant on that side.

The other side of it from my point of view is we can have some serious fun. These wee bikes will be fast. Rules will be easy to enforce. Racing will be close as everyone one truly be on an equal playing field with out spending a fortune. Yes it will take a clever few of us to get the formula right. But we will get it right. It will be awesome.

That is all.

That being said, I think there could be some potential for the class, but it wouldn't be a class that would bring people into racing in the droves. Especially when they look at the amount of work they would have to do to convert the MX bike to be able to road race it. Hell of a lot easier to throw a set of racing fairings on their Supersport and race that.

[neil_cb125t]

Ill admit I have not had a look at this entire post - I see you haven't included pro twin/ the SV650 class within F3. This is the area I am focusing on. I think we are agreeing kinda...... more brands in each class, less specialist classes....




Right.....

Read very carefully! I will admit, I am not the most intelligent man in the race paddock. But it seems to me everyone has missed the point.

Moto GP has 5 brands
Superbikes has 5 brands
The motorcycle industry on a whole has 5 main brands who are road racing competitively

In our country:

We have a 250 Production class that has 2 main brands in it.

We have a 600cc and 1000 class that has 4 brands competing in it on a good week.

We have a f3 class that has an absolute rif rafe of different type of bikes. Not saying that's a bad thing. Just a massive mixture of bikes, competing on different levels which mainly comes down to $$ they invest.

Hope your with me so far........

So.....here we have a concept. Take a production 450 MX bike that the 5 main brands compete in superbike and moto gp, (they all make a model that fits, is approx same weight and horse power). The general bike fan that has a toy in the garage he rides on the road, reads the kiwi rider mag and bike rider mag already has a connection with these brands. Take some bloke that builds and f3 bike out of some random engine and chassis he mocked up in his shed over winter, the general public that rides bikes has no emotional connection to that, as cool and interesting as it is 90% of our spectators just can't relate to that. To them it looks like a lot of work and energy to build and get involved if they ever wanted to. Instant put off.

The concept behind moto 450 class, you take brand of motorcycles that the general motorcycle population has a brand awareness with. Something they can relate to. Most of them have that brand in there shed or they rode it to the track to watch us race. They get excited by this want to get involved. Maybe get a bike themselves and have a crack.

So they come along and watch this 450 class in action, lets say there ten on the track. They find out, all you need is a 450 MX bike, just like what there mates have got...they can relate to this, they find out that there is a simple way of getting this machine on the track, by fitting up a road kit. Wheels, brakes, suspension bolt ons, fairing and rear sets, buying some gear. BOLT ON! SIMPLE! QUICK. EASY. We live in a nano second society. People these days need things to happen fast to stay interested, especially young people. Must happen instantly at least to start with to keep them interested and involved. Best part is this won't cost them 15k, or 25 k to get involved. Its could be done as cheaply as $5 6k. They look cool, just like the GP bikes we see on tele, once again something they can relate to, branding and looks.

THERE IS A MUCH BIGGER PICTURE HERE!! MOTORCYCLING IS ON THE DECLINE!! THIS ISN'T ABOUT US!! WE ARE ALREADY RACING AND BEING INVOLVED! THIS IS ABOUT AN AFFORDABLE FORM OF RACING THAT REACHES THE EMOTIONS OF A MUCH BROADER RANGE OF PEOPLE! PEOPLE THAT CAN RELATE TO BRAND AWARENESS. PEOPLE THAT CAN RELATE TO A MACHINE THAT LOOKS LIKE WHAT THE SEE ON TELE! BUT IS WITH IN REACH FINANCIALLY FOR THE COST OF A CAR AND WITH A LITTLE INSTRUCTION AND MAINTENANCE WONT COST A FORTUNE TO RUN! YOU WON"T NEED A SPECIALIZED RACE MECHANIC TO REBUILD AND SERVICE AS EVERY BIKE SHOP HAS MECHANICS THAT CAN SERVICE THESE ENGINES AND REPAIR. MUCH BIGGER PICTURE PEOPLE!!

That's my rant on that side.

The other side of it from my point of view is we can have some serious fun. These wee bikes will be fast. Rules will be easy to enforce. Racing will be close as everyone one truly be on an equal playing field with out spending a fortune. Yes it will take a clever few of us to get the formula right. But we will get it right. It will be awesome.

That is all.

[scorry]

That being said, I think there could be some potential for the class, but it wouldn't be a class that would bring people into racing in the droves. Especially when they look at the amount of work they would have to do to convert the MX bike to be able to road race it. Hell of a lot easier to throw a set of racing fairings on their Supersport and race that.

Not for anywhere near the price of this concept and still be competitive.
Good luck getting a top 10 on a 600 if you havent thrown an extra 10k at it.




The other side of it from my point of view is we can have some serious fun. These wee bikes will be fast. Rules will be easy to enforce. Racing will be close as everyone one truly be on an equal playing field with out spending a fortune. Yes it will take a clever few of us to get the formula right. But we will get it right. It will be awesome.



I love the idea John, if i still had my SMR i would be keen as!
I have been trying to talk Scott into doing it for a while but he isn't sure.
Definitely a good idea to enforce and monitor minimal modifications (that's why i got out of motards)
Also think that the racing would be super close this way as the bikes would be very even and close racing is what people want to see!

[tail_end_charlie]

Not for anywhere near the price of this concept and still be competitive.
Good luck getting a top 10 on a 600 if you havent thrown an extra 10k at it.


I thought we were talking about getting people started in racing who have had no previous road racing expierence? It takes a while to become good enough as a rider before you need to worry about modding your bike for more power to be competative in SS. But new riders would race in clubmans first anyways, hence racing fairings and some safety wiring and they are good to go.

Overall I like the idea of a class for the converted MX bikes, I think it could be quite interesting and fun. But I don't think it would be the sort of class for riders new to road racing to try and get into. Thats the key point that I'm trying to make. That and I don't think it will be all that much cheaper than putting a SS into Clubmans.

[Peter Smith]

That being said, I think there could be some potential for the class, but it wouldn't be a class that would bring people into racing in the droves. Especially when they look at the amount of work they would have to do to convert the MX bike to be able to road race it. Hell of a lot easier to throw a set of racing fairings on their Supersport and race that.

Totally agree. It is easier to get a 600 on the track than spending alot of cash, fitting and changing a bike that once completed can only be used for racing.

[crazy man]

all l can say is you can do things very cheap if you can do it your self so learn how to!

[steveyb]

A contact of mine in Canada has informed me that their F450 Suzuki is for sale.
PM me for contact details if you are interested.
Picture of bike attached here.

Details below:

2008/09 Suzuki RMZ-450 Super Single/ Formula 450 Road Racer
a one of a kind race bike built by Gavin Trippe out of California. This bike is created from RMZ 450 bones and includes a built '09 fuel injected, 5 speed engine making 57 hp at the rear wheel. Also comes with a 2008 fuel injected 4 speed engine. It was raced in Canada in 2012 with the SOAR and RACE series (by a young woman called Karolina).

Details :
• 2009 engine with Yoshimura trans treatment, CP piston, and Yoshimura head work port/polish
• Vortex X-10 ECU with mapping hardware and handlebar map switch
• Hinson Racing slipper clutch
• FMF 4.1 Ti/SS full exhaust system with custom Ti muffler
• Race Tech triple clamps and fork conversion and Race Tech dropouts
• Race Tech modified rear shock
• Marchesini 17" forged aluminium wheels
• Brembo billet caliper w/ full floating rotor and Brembo master cylinder
• Scotts Performance steering damper
• Vortex rearsets
• Woodcraft clipons
• AIM Mychron 4 data logger dash with data key and GPS module
• Throttle cam system
• Catalyst Composites fairings
• Driven gearing ( full set, all the multiple gearings you will need)
This bike has a VERY modest weight of about 240lbs (approx 109kg).

Spares include :
2008 fuel injected spare engine, 4 spd
SV650 wheels, modified to fit, w/ Pirelli rains mounted
stock clutch, stock & Hinson clutch covers
Brand new chain
new oil filters
Stock ECU
Vortex Rearset parts
+ other misc spares

we are asking $7000 CAD for it

[James Deuce]

OMG, that's beautiful.

[puddytat]

Very nice!! And the exchange rate is good at the moment.....

[steveyb]

Yeah, yeah, yeah!!
I thought that with all that bling on the bike that the price they are asking for is quite reasonable and I am sure there would be some room for movement. I will hear soon where the bike is in Canada for a better idea about shipping. But Mainfreight do a container from the USA each week in which one can just buy space. So makes shipping bike here much cheaper than it would otherwise be.
Contact Jeff Jarson at Mainfreight in Wellington for options.

BTW, fairings by the looks of it to me are Honda RSW 250 2004+ seat unit, Honda RS250 NXA (2001-2003) or perhaps Aprilia RS250 roadbike main fairings. Tank also looks Aprilia RS250.

Discussion with team manager was that the bike works awesomely well and ran fast against bikes in its class, winning several races. Ran with 600's in tight stuff but couldn't keep up in the faster stuff. All to be expected. Take advantage of someone elses R&D.

[pete376403]

Where are the pictures of Karolina?

[tail_end_charlie]

Where are the pictures of Karolina?

Funny, I was thinking the same thing......

[steveyb]

Now now boys, settle....
I do have one and it would please, but not appropriate here.
Tell you what. Buy the bike, head to Canada to pick it up in person and I am sure you would be able to say gidday.

[tail_end_charlie]

Now now boys, settle....
I do have one and it would please, but not appropriate here.
Tell you what. Buy the bike, head to Canada to pick it up in person and I am sure you would be able to say gidday.

Well if she is as good looking as the bike..................

But alas, I need to get up to speed on my own heaps of junk before I go out and spend coin on a sweet ride. (<--talking about the bike there, just to clarify :msn-wink:)

[Mental Trousers]

Don't you clowns know what Google is for?

<img src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qvsNXGKH_bg/UOt8SiIAtjI/AAAAAAAAA-U/RoG424wZlbk/s1600/DSC_7731.JPG" width="640px">

[steveyb]

Krusty the clowns.

But that is her. Pretty fast by all accounts.
I mentioned that they should come out here and race in March, but she is to ride a souped up Triumph 675 this coming season in AMA or something.

[neil_cb125t]

Krusty the clowns.

But that is her. Pretty fast by all accounts.
I mentioned that they should come out here and race in March, but she is to ride a souped up Triumph 675 this coming season in AMA or something.

Canadians are awesome:yes:

[steveyb]

Get me some back bacon and a brewski eh hosehead and don't forget your tooke when we go oot beelin'.