Could you have avoided this?

[swbarnett]

The statement being refuted, was that you cannot change the bikes direction with weight alone. Had nothing to do with counter steering.
Ah, I see what you mean. In that case I totally agree with you and this is where the teminology can get us in to trouble. Counter-steering, as I was interpreting the term, is to do with what the front wheel is doing. There is another possible interpretation of the term, equally as valid, that refers to the action of the rider. It would be quite correct to say that the rider can "steer" the bike in two ways - by applying pressure to the bars or by shifting their body weight.

To put it another way. While it is true to say that a bike cannot turn without entering into a countersteer, it is also true to say that the rider doesn't have to countersteer (i.e. apply pressure to the bars) in order to turn because the bike will do this automatically as a result of rider weight shift.

[SuperMac]

The problem is technically any steering is countersteering, and people love pointing out this technicality to sound superior

Technically, what would power-sliding be, then? :rolleyes: :banana::clap:

Serious Q: does a rider use c-s to get the bike leant over, then power to drift the rear, and when drifting the rear is further c-s used - or replaced by adjusting the power? :eek5::(


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJrvj1cx7FM

[bogan]

Technically, what would power-sliding be, then? :rolleyes: :banana::clap:

The correct technical term is awesome.


Serious Q: does a rider use c-s to get the bike leant over, then power to drift the rear, and when drifting the rear is further c-s used - or replaced by adjusting the power? :eek5::(



Can't answer cos you don't say which c-s you refer to. Just get on the bike and have a go, actually, find a CRF250 or similar and have a go, while I'm sure it's doable on an R850RT, it is shark on whisky.

[R-Soul]

And yet I can ride down a large-ish hill's worth of 35kph corners with both hands behind my head and my right foot making gentle love to the rear brake.

I've always known I was special, but I didn't know I was exempted-from-the-laws-of-physics special.

Fortunately, I find my ego capable of encompassing this revelation.

Only if you are going really slowly.
Try doing chicanes at speed or taking a 90 degree bend at anuthing above 30kph...

[jrandom]

It is impossible to steer a motorbike effectively with body weight.

Nek minnit...


Only if you are going really slowly.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is how you lose at the internet.

[R-Soul]

Ah, I see what you mean. In that case I totally agree with you and this is where the teminology can get us in to trouble. Counter-steering, as I was interpreting the term, is to do with what the front wheel is doing. There is another possible interpretation of the term, equally as valid, that refers to the action of the rider. It would be quite correct to say that the rider can "steer" the bike in two ways - by applying pressure to the bars or by shifting their body weight.

To put it another way. While it is true to say that a bike cannot turn without entering into a countersteer, it is also true to say that the rider doesn't have to countersteer (i.e. apply pressure to the bars) in order to turn because the bike will do this automatically as a result of rider weight shift.

A rider applying weight to one side (with hands off bars)suddenly causes the head to jerk, friction prevents it coming back entirely, causing a small degree of counter steering. Do you really want to leave your steering effectiveness to the viscosity of the grease in teh head bearing?

A rider leaning slowly to one side with hands off bars will not get effective steering at speed. If you claim you steer effectively by body weight with hands on bars, then I am saying that you are actually applying countersteering forces to the bars with your hands when you make the movements required to move your body weight, and its actually counter steering that is causing your steering to be effective.

This is what happens when kids get an opportunity to stuff around on motorbikes for a while. They find that by moving body positions in a certain way, they get better steering. They think its because of the weight shift, but its actually because they are pushing/pulling on the BARS to get their body into position.

[R-Soul]

Nek minnit...



This, ladies and gentlemen, is how you lose at the internet.

Thwe words EFFECTIVELY in my first quote should be understood to mean "at any kind of realistic road going speeds useful to anybody else besides jrandom, around any kind of corner that you could not steer a super tanker around"

Going slowly around big corners is not effective steering (not fo me anyway).

[bogan]

A rider applying weight to one side (with hands off bars)suddenly causes the head to jerk, friction prevents it coming back entirely, causing a small degree of counter steering. Do you really want to leave your steering effectiveness to the viscosity of the grease in teh head bearing?

Actually it is far more to do with the trail, try leaning you bike over while holding only the seat, the bars will turn in towards the lean no matter how slowly you lean it over.

[swbarnett]

A rider applying weight to one side (with hands off bars)suddenly causes the head to jerk, friction prevents it coming back entirely, causing a small degree of counter steering. Do you really want to leave your steering effectiveness to the viscosity of the grease in teh head bearing?

A rider leaning slowly to one side with hands off bars will not get effective steering at speed. If you claim you steer effectively by body weight with hands on bars, then I am saying that you are actually applying countersteering forces to the bars with your hands when you make the movements required to move your body weight, and its actually counter steering that is causing your steering to be effective.

This is what happens when kids get an opportunity to stuff around on motorbikes for a while. They find that by moving body positions in a certain way, they get better steering. They think its because of the weight shift, but its actually because they are pushing/pulling on the BARS to get their body into position.
Totally agree.

[jrandom]

*backpedalling* *restating*

The trick, dude, is to not write things that are wrong and post them on the internet in the first place.

[bogan]

The trick, dude, is to not write things that are wrong and post them on the internet in the first place.

And a tip for that, is step outside the physics 101 class into the real world. Next thing you know he'll be telling us the only effective way to create wing lift is to have a longer path over the top side :wacko:

Anyway, I think I can hear Drew loading mags, so :chase:

[Drew]

Technically, what would power-sliding be, then? :rolleyes: :banana::clap:

Serious Q: does a rider use c-s to get the bike leant over, then power to drift the rear, and when drifting the rear is further c-s used - or replaced by adjusting the power? :eek5::(

Backing it in to a turn, yes, you still counter steer. Load up the front with the brake, counter steer like normal to lean it over, and let the back drift to the outside. Moderate the slide with the BRAKE, not the bars.

Power sliding, you have no choice but to steer out of the turn. Unless your aim is to drop it on the low side.

[Ocean1]

Backing it in to a turn, yes, you still counter steer. Load up the front with the brake, counter steer like normal to lean it over, and let the back drift to the outside. Moderate the slide with the BRAKE, not the bars.

Power sliding, you have no choice but to steer out of the turn. Unless your aim is to drop it on the low side.

It's the transition between these two where I like to fling myself over the bars and far, far away...

[Drew]

It's the transition between these two where I like to fling myself over the bars and far, far away...I don't even try to tie them together. I back it in on pit bikes, (and a short session learning to do it on the RF), and the only time I have ever played around with real power sliding I destroyed a rear hoop on my K2 thou in a week.

[Ocean1]

I don't even try to tie them together. I back it in on pit bikes, (and a short session learning to do it on the RF), and the only time I have ever played around with real power sliding I destroyed a rear hoop on my K2 thou in a week.

I sometimes manage it in the dirt. More often end up on me arse. Most excellent memory from a couple of years ago of passing the boy around the outside with the back well out and the front wheel a foot off the ground. Perfect. He'll never know how much pure luck was involved.

Never tried power sliding anything roadworthy, never had the practice earlier in life to make it anywhere near safe. The XB12R, though backed in exactly like the 525 does in the dirt, just chop the throttle and tip it in. Very repeatable and quite safe. 1125 won't do it without some brake, a lot less safe.

[Metal Doctor]

this may be a factor it may not, in the uk people flash there lights to let other drivers turn. we ride with our lights on and if there is a bump in the road it may appear that the biker could of flashed his lights telling the truck driver he could turn. i doubt it though.

in most of these cenarios you offten here the words "i didnt see him" this is because you train your eyes to see large car shaped objects.

whatever happened was one of those things that happens evey day. he was on of the lucky ones and lived, some die from the same incident.

wheather or not you think you would of been riding differently or slower or avoided it somehow, the fact remains that the truck pulled accross on coming traffic.

thought it was interesting to look at the poll results and reading the comments. personally if i was riding down that road and a truck pulled out that close to me giving me no time to react i would of slammed into the truck too. but im fat and would of bounced further.

[SuperMac]

this may be a factor it may not, in the uk people flash there lights to let other drivers turn. we ride with our lights on and if there is a bump in the road it may appear that the biker could of flashed his lights telling the truck driver he could turn. i doubt it though.

UK's had 'AHO' on almost all new bikes for about a decade, and most riders voluntarily used dipped beam prior to it becoming standard (not a legal requirement, ACEM [the manufacturer's association] brought it in).


i would of slammed into the truck too. but im fat and would of bounced further.

There's a UK 'fly on the wall' TV docu series 'helicopter heroes' following the UK air ambulance helicopters. Recently, one of the Drs commentated that well-muscled motorcyclists are [slightly] protected from injury - at least, more than skinny people!

[actungbaby]

I bet you also think that shaft drives can wheelie.

One mr gardner did some awsome burnouts on 6 cylinder goldwinged engined bike in wellington

[Drew]

One mr gardner did some awsome burnouts on 6 cylinder goldwinged engined bike in wellingtonThey're not wheelies though are they.

Him and Slighty weren't flavour of the month with Honda NZ after that show. Slight fucken rooted the valkyrie's linked abs brakes doing rolling burnouts I heard. Not to mention the brand new tyres.

[Banditbandit]

Try these - all shaft drives

<img src="http://andyw-inuk.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/R1200GS-BMW-Motorcycle-Photo/R1200GS-Trackday-Stunt-Photos/BMWtest44/402037071_Kfgeq-L.jpg" width="400px"/>


<img src="http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m62fsz0Dyj1qmvj2po1_1280.jpg" width="400px"/>


http://www.autoblog.com/media/2006/06/Goldwing-wheelie.jpg

[jrandom]

Try these - all shaft drives

Photoshopped.

[Drew]

The guy on the goldwing is shitting himself by the looks.

[Berries]

The guy on the goldwing is shitting himself by the looks.
Ronnie Smith. If you don't know him you should spend a bit of time with Google. Calling him a fucking clown is actually a compliment. Great character.

[onearmedbandit]

Ronnie Smith. If you don't know him you should spend a bit of time with Google. Calling him a fucking clown is actually a compliment. Great character.

And killed on a scooter. And then Gus was killed at the Isle of Man. Two big losses for PB, along with JR from a few years prior.

[SuperMac]

Nah, they're all either 'Paintshopped' or happen to be taken at the right moment when their attrocious suspension fails to cope with a bump in the road ;)

[Katman]

And killed on a scooter. And then Gus was killed at the Isle of Man. Two big losses for PB, along with JR from a few years prior.

Yeah, such great role models.

[Drew]

Yeah, such great role models.

This is where i stop seeing it your way man.

Those guys have talent, and they loved pushing the limits. So long as they do that shit away from others, why can't they be "great roll models"?

[Katman]

Those guys have talent, and they loved pushing the limits. So long as they do that shit away from others, why can't they be "great roll models"?

I'm not denying that they have/had talent Drew.

Their magazine and their countless youtube videos clearly show though that they have/had no intention of "doing that shit away from others".

[onearmedbandit]

Yeah, such great role models.

Never said they were great role models. Just two 'likeable' characters who gave the magazine something special. JR was different though.

[Banditbandit]

Photoshopped.

Fucktard!!! Deny the evidence of your own eyes? What kinda shit have you been taking today?

[Banditbandit]

Yeah, such great role models.

Never mind .. the Poms are really great at choosing losers for role models ... and we have picked up the habit .. Just look at Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans.

[oneofsix]

Never mind .. the Poms are really great at choosing losers for role models ... and we have picked up the habit .. Just look at Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans.

losers they may have been, heroes they were :yes: especially the last, give up they did not, back down they did not. Your problem is?

[jrandom]

Fucktard!!! Deny the evidence of your own eyes?

<img src="http://i49.tinypic.com/2iatxsp.jpg"/>

[Berries]

Never mind .. the Poms are really great at choosing losers for role models ... and we have picked up the habit .. Just look at Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans.
Who said anything about role models? The guy entertained me.

[Madness]

Mrs Patel

Is that Raj's mum?

[Katman]

Is that Raj's mum?

Fuck, I thought that was a dude.

[SuperMac]

losers they may have been, heroes they were :yes: especially the last, give up they did not, back down they did not.

The US had Batman and Superman, the UK had Eddie the Eagle :)

[Berries]

The US had Batman and Superman, the UK had Eddie the Eagle :)
And New Zealand has?

[Madness]

And New Zealand has?

CookMySock.

http://www.whakatanebeacon.co.nz/cms/image/1/art_JrxVngBc.jpg

[Berries]

Jingle jangle.

[R-Soul]

The trick, dude, is to not write things that are wrong and post them on the internet in the first place.

Nothing I have said is wrong. If I have to explain the meaning of Plain English sentences, it is because I overestimated how much you had applied your mind to it in the first place.

So do you reckon that weight steering will be enough for you in a chicane?

[Drew]

So do you reckon that weight steering will be enough for you in a chicane?
100% yes it will.

[Ocean1]

100% yes it will.

You goda admit that's a power of weight to be flinging around a motorcycle, though.

[Drew]

You goda admit that's a power of weight to be flinging around a motorcycle, though.No doubt. In his haste though, the question asker failed to mention how tight the chicane was, or how fast the bike would be travelling.

[R-Soul]

100% yes it will.

And you'd be wrong.
http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

[Drew]

And you'd be wrong.
http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.phpMy response referred to slow speed, open chicane. Since you were too retarded to consider adding perameters to the question, you are wrong. Go away, fuck-tard!

[SuperMac]

My response referred to slow speed, open chicane.

I thought that the technical term for those was 'wide open S bend' . . .

[Drew]

I thought that the technical term for those was 'wide open S bend' . . .It pays not to get technical on KB, some munter like me comes along and picks holes in it all.

Using nothing but your body weight, you can turn a motorcycle. Trying to say you cannot is just retarded.

That bike with the bars fixed is probably fuckin hard to get your head around, because you're hangin onto a set of bars, but will turn with body weight and throttle use.

Chris Pfiefer can go from lock to lock in about 2 meters with his hands off the bars, rolling round tight circles and figure '8's.

[SuperMac]

Using nothing but your body weight, you can turn a motorcycle

You might ;) , I prefer to help it along by using the bars :niceone:


Chris Pfiefer can go from lock to lock in about 2 meters with his hands off the bars, rolling round tight circles and figure '8's.

Not really a fair example. I doubt that very many riders can do the sort of stuff he manages even using the bars :no: :first:


I'd not argue with the view that it's possible or achievable to use body weight to steer. However, I'd say that many riders who think they do it don't, and for most riders if they want quick, immediate and accurate steering, they're better off using the bars.

[Banditbandit]

losers they may have been, heroes they were :yes: especially the last, give up they did not, back down they did not. Your problem is?

I don't have a problem ... they all died ... that's not my problem, and that's losers ..

Amundsun made it there AND back ... that's a hero ... he got there first and he got back alive ...

WHAT??? dying heroically makes good role models ??? Get real ...

[Banditbandit]

And New Zealand has?

Made it there and back from several tough and cold places ...

http://www.upadowna.org/sites/default/files/uploads/hillary.jpg

[Berries]

Nah, I give up. Which one of the Topp twins is that?

[BoristheBiter]

Nah, I give up. Which one of the Topp twins is that?

It's carrot isn't it? or spinning? I do get them mixed up.

[R-Soul]

My response referred to slow speed, open chicane. Since you were too retarded to consider adding perameters to the question, you are wrong. Go away, fuck-tard!

the context of the previous conversation should have been more than enough to add the parameters. But since I did not, you are right.

But you agree that any tight corner at any decent speed (OK above what 40kph?) is going to present big problems.


I have no doubt that your mate can do lock to lock turns without his hands on bars. At slow speed.
Now YOU go away, asshat.

:bash:

[Maha]

asshat...
Such language should not be tolerated within the ideology of this fine congenial website.

[Drew]

asshat...
Such language should not be tolerated within the ideology of this fine congenial website.I dunno, at least it's quite original. Everyone is so used to me calling them cunts now, it doesn't even warrant mention any more.

[Big Dog]

The first thing that strikes me is that the running commentary suggests that his mind wasn't entirely on the job. +1
Also no use of the horn.
Reeks of someone with a divided focus being unable to see the exit.

My money in a similar situation in 2009 was to get on the horn and tip in for an unplanned exit from the main road. Followed sharply by a sphincter pulsating attempt to recover traction on both ends as I passed through a drift of gravel.

Given the choice of definitly pushing the 'busa into a milk truck and going on an unplanned detour to possibly drop the bike into the side of one truck in the path of another the choice was clear and simple.

Had I been recording a blog at the same time I would have probably done the same thing he did and over braked in a situation where the brakes were not a viable solution...

Having said that I was not there when he had his crash and every crash is different. I could be taken out by a parked car tommorow if I were to try and record my thoughts...

[Mr. Peanut]

But my instinctual method of avoiding shit has always been, use about half of the available distance on the front brake, and use the second half to flick the bike as hard out of the way as possible.

This seems to work, because by the time I've finished my braking, the other driver has usually hit their brakes, and there are more situations where you do not have the distance to stop, but you do have room for very hard cornering.

But the thing is, I don't know what he's riding. I'm usually on very flickable twins or other light bikes for this reason, sounded like he was on a big four.

[SHELRACING]

From a reasonable distance, the video shows two trucks and further traffic obstructions beyond the trucks. My immediate reaction would have been to slow down, with caution. It seems the rider was otherwise occupied with his commentary, the question is was he really watching the road or looking at something else as well.

Stupid manoeuvre by the dumbass truckie though.

[Matariki]

pic

And then there's this... :facepalm:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVmoSWrm3-4

[Bison]

I have a headlight modulator on my bike which would have been activated at this rider's point. I would have considered weaving a bit in the lane to draw attention to my headlight and covered my brakes while reducing speed. The rider did not 'leave himself an out". Had he done that then he might have been able to push steer his bike into the unoccupied roadway on his left after braking down to a slower speed. You can see from his helmet cam that he target fixated on the truck and did not look into the escape route.