Lights! Action!

[mylodon]

what is it with wellington and the lights that don't detect motorcycles?

three choices:

1) Hang out in the road until a car shows up (maybe overnight)
2) Get off the bike and find a crosswalk button pointing in the right direction
3) Run the red light

I thought I found a route with decent lights but now I've got one everday, alas; so it's 3 for me, maybe twice a day, since 1) is likely and 2) is not an option.

[James Deuce]

At each intersection there is an induction loop. It looks like a football field made out of slightly shinier tar. Line your engine up over the lines and the lights will work. If you really get stuck, put your side stand down, with the engine running, and rest the sidestand foot on one of those lines.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-driving-safety/safety-regulatory-devices/question234.htm

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID10846/images/InductiveLoopSensor(1).jpg

[mossy1200]

Activation is via a ground loop.
Ground loop is a wire running around in a circle(normally rectangle) which is the shape you often see in the ground before the intersection.
It uses detection of of metal to activate a small change in the circuit to know you are there.
Your bike having a big distance from engine to ground isnt helping along with the small metal mass of it being a bike.
If your going over the ground loop and parking in front of it it wont know your waiting.
This is ok if a car pulls in behind you.

Failing that do some donuts around the loop.

[mossy1200]

At each intersection there is an induction loop. It looks like a football field made out of slightly shinier tar. Line your engine up over the lines and the lights will work. If you really get stuck, put your side stand down, with the engine running, and rest the sidestand foot on one of those lines.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-driving-safety/safety-regulatory-devices/question234.htm

Wheres that intersection.
the ground loops I have trouble with in welly are normally a single loop shape half the size of a car and often are to far back from the intersection for a bike that rides over it and stops.
Never thought about side stand. Must try that. Sounds easier than lying a MT-01 on its side.

[sootie]

Activation is via a ground loop.
Ground loop is a wire running around in a circle(normally rectangle) which is the shape you often see in the ground before the intersection.
It uses detection of of metal to activate a small change in the circuit to know you are there.
Your bike having a big distance from engine to ground isnt helping along with the small metal mass of it being a bike.
If your going over the ground loop and parking in front of it it wont know your waiting.
This is ok if a car pulls in behind you.

Failing that do some donuts around the loop.

Motorists in Auckland are fairly agressive. If you just park the bike well forward they tend to sneak up to about paint thickness behind your number plate - end of problem! (This is not a joke; it is what I do fairly often now).

[James Deuce]

That one's American.

[James Deuce]

If you let the Council know they'll turn the gain up.

[Ocean1]

Your bike having a big distance from engine to ground isnt helping along with the small metal mass of it being a bike.

Common problem, with dirt bikes in particular. There's special wee magnets you can buy that utterly fail to fix the problem, so don't bother with them. The sidestand thing works sometimes, but more to the point the bloody things should work, they're just not installed or adjusted right. If you're having ongoing issues with one set call the council, they orta be onto it.

Oh, yeah, I've laid the bike down on 'em before, works but some bikes are a bit of a handfull to do that. Just sayin.

[bogan]

Common problem, with dirt bikes in particular. There's special wee magnets you can buy that utterly fail to fix the problem, so don't bother with them. The sidestand thing works sometimes, but more to the point the bloody things should work, they're just not installed or adjusted right. If you're having ongoing issues with one set call the council, they orta be onto it.

Oh, yeah, I've laid the bike down on 'em before, works but some bikes are a bit of a handfull to do that. Just sayin.

Wasn't there a meme about nobody knowing how magnets work? Guess thats how they manage to make such a useless product sellable.

Best bet is probably a steel bashplate, gives a big steel surface area close to the ground. Or slip some thin steel plate into your boot soles maybe. Or just get the council to fix it up or at least clarify your legal options; wasn't there some absurd waiting period after which you could run the red?

[James Deuce]

Wasn't there a meme about nobody knowing how magnets work? Guess thats how they manage to make such a useless product sellable.

Best bet is probably a steel bashplate, gives a big steel surface area close to the ground. Or slip some thin steel plate into your boot soles maybe. Or just get the council to fix it up or at least clarify your legal options; wasn't there some absurd waiting period after which you could run the red?

3 phases. It would be fun both proving or disproving that you waited three phases, in court.

[Virago]

3 phases. It would be fun both proving or disproving that you waited three phases, in court.

I don't get it. The lights won't change - so how can you wait through three phases if the lights won't change? :confused:

[mossy1200]

I don't get it. The lights won't change - so how can you wait through three phases if the lights won't change? :confused:


They are talking about when you are at a green arrow turn only. The straight throughs cycle but the turn arrow wont light up if no vehicles are in the turning lane.

[The End]

Wow this whole time I thought the sensors were weight related. All those times spent balancing all the weight on the middle of the box :facepalm:

[bogan]

They are talking about when you are at a green arrow turn only. The straight throughs cycle but the turn arrow wont light up if no vehicles are in the turning lane.

If there are no vehicles and the phases are changing you can turn when your straight through has a green anyway. Waiting 3 phases law sounds pretty retarded.

[mylodon]

If there are no vehicles and the phases are changing you can turn when your straight through has a green anyway. Waiting 3 phases law sounds pretty retarded.

i don't want to wait 3 phases.. that's a long time hanging out in the road waiting for someone to pile into my backside.

i'll see if i can spot the coils tomorrow. I don't recall them being so obvious.

[ducatilover]

Siiiimple.
Approach intersection
Hammer rear brake and hop off bike

Trust me, works every time

[Lozza2442]

If there are no vehicles and the phases are changing you can turn when your straight through has a green anyway. Waiting 3 phases law sounds pretty retarded.

Depends on the intersection. Some have red arrows and some just work off the straight ahead light. e.g. the lights I wait at everyday cnr queen and Victoria in akl sometimes doesn't pick me up and so I'll get stuck at a red arrow with cars going straight ahead at a green So I can't go then obviously. Well. I could race them. Nothin like playing chicken with cagers

[sootie]

A way back in the 1980s a biker friend of mine had some troublesome lights near where he lived. If there was no traffic around, he would stop, look each way & then proceed. He was coming home around 3am one morning, did the usual & then discovered the car with a red flashing light waving him over. He tried to explain but got nowhere.

Being Jim, he took the infringment to court & defended himself by simply telling the majistrate the facts. The case was found in his favour, and to add a touch of sweetness, the cop who issued the ticket came up to him as he left and apologised!
Perhaps it was a kinder age .... (but the traffic lights really were rubbish!)

Always come out fighting! :ar15:

[Tigadee]

Wow this whole time I thought the sensors were weight related.

If that were true, us pie munchers would have no problem at the lights... :lol:

[Dave-]

Simple conservation law you're forgetting here guys, energy is neither created nor destroyed only changed.

An inductor works off 2 principles, size and speed, the bigger an object is...the more current it will create, the faster an object is....the more current it will create, so a big truck moving across one of these inductors at 100kph would create more than enough current, a normal sized car entering and stopping on the inductor doesn't have to move very fast cause it has enough mass, but a motorcycle which is very small would have to enter the inductor very fast to create enough current to equal that of a car moving slowly.

So when you sit at the lights on the inductive strip, putting your side stand down etc wont do anything cause you're now still and not creating a current, the reciprocating motion of your engine may create a little, but given this thread exists it's obviously not enough, this conforms to conservation of energy, you're not doing any work anymore, so you shouldn't get a current.

The real solution, and I don't actually recommend it, is to get onto the pad as fast as possible and brake as late as possible, that way you're creating a greater surge of current in the detection circuit.

I have heard guys claim revving their engine helps.

To be honest though I'm not even sure if either of those would create enough current.

I've also heard that lights have priorities too, if a bus of a whacking great big truck passes over the inductor it'll create more current and the lights know to give them priority, then anything less is normal, I'm not sure how true that is though.

The best thing to do would be to get some rare earth magnets and mount them in the belly pan or underneath your bike, maybe even in the rim? or a giant electromagnet! but that would sap a giant amount of energy from your bike....

just get off and press the button.

[sootie]

The best thing to do would be to get some rare earth magnets and mount them in the belly pan or underneath your bike, maybe even in the rim? or a giant electromagnet! but that would sap a giant amount of energy from your bike....

Have a look at: http://www.trademe.co.nz/Members/Listings.aspx?member=3021550
The only thing is, you might have to buy a reasonably big magnet and mount it pretty low on your bike to be effective. You might regret the magnetism at service time too!

I still think allowing the car behind to come close solves most of the problem anywhere there is traffic! :confused:

[bogan]

Dave and Sootie, just to clarify how they work, they sense the inductance of the loop, the vehicle acts as the inductor core. No vehicle, low inductance, big vehicle, large inductance. Magnetic vehicles are up to fuck all cos the fields don't affect each other. Voltage induced by speed will be very minimal due to the low magnetic field strength (which would induce the voltage in the vehicle anyway), and the sensor looks for a frequency change due to the inductance change. Maybe riding fast into a loop with some huge magnets would induce enough voltage to breifly change the sensed frequency, but they probably just average that shit out anyway.

[Dave-]

Dave and Sootie, just to clarify how they work, they sense the inductance of the loop, the vehicle acts as the inductor core. No vehicle, low inductance, big vehicle, large inductance. Magnetic vehicles are up to fuck all cos the fields don't affect each other. Voltage induced by speed will be very minimal due to the low magnetic field strength (which would induce the voltage in the vehicle anyway), and the sensor looks for a frequency change due to the inductance change. Maybe riding fast into a loop with some huge magnets would induce enough voltage to breifly change the sensed frequency, but they probably just average that shit out anyway.

Oh I see, clever.

so really you want a giant slab of iron in your belly pan?....not a tiny neodymium magnet....damn.

Or metglas!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metglas

[Big Dave]

Just putting the side stand down and resting the bike on it for half a second has worked for me 95% of the time.

[Dave-]

Just putting the side stand down and resting the bike on it for half a second has worked for me 95% of the time.

Out of interest, those who do this, do you sit on the bike while the side stand is down? I realise that's risky given some side stands are wafer thin, but in some cases the side stand and mount should be able to take it easy.

To be honest I think it's just the placebo effect put to good use.

Putting the center stand down ought to work 190% of the time (this is backed up by 2x 95% = 190%) or does it halve the effect? curious....

You could also try holding the clutch in and shifting up through all your gears and then down again, this ought to get you to the ideal 100%

:D

[oneofsix]

Just putting the side stand down and resting the bike on it for half a second has worked for me 95% of the time.

That will cause my engine to cutout :blink:

Try this (http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/roadcode/cyclist-code/about-cycling/cycling-through-intersections.html);
Using vehicle detectors at traffic signals

All intersections with traffic signals have vehicle detectors set in the road surface just before the intersection's white stop lines. When a vehicle is on top of the detector, a ‘message’ is sent to the traffic signal controller to ‘tell it’ you are waiting. Sometimes cycles aren't detected because they are smaller than other vehicles on the road. Here are a few ways to improve your chances of being detected


If there is traffic around, try to time your arrival at the signals with a larger vehicle that will trigger the detectors for you, or wait for the arrival of a larger vehicle.
If there is no traffic around, look for the tell tale signs of the detector's location (tar filled saw cuts near the stop lines) and stop your cycle directly over any one of the tar cuts running in the same direction as you are riding.


This advice is for cyclists so given the larger mass of motobikes should work better.

Can't find it now but saw another bit of 'offical' advise to cyclists that advised stopping over the centre cut in the lane as this is where the 2 loops come together and therefore improves the detection of your bike. They may have dropped this as they decided having cyclists in the centre of the lane wasn't a good idea but don't see that motorbikes have the same problem.

[SILVER SUZI]

That advise for cyclists looka as if it might have been dreamed up by some blind ignorant twat who has never even sat on a bicycle. Fuck all works on a bicycle.
Not sure if aluminium will create the inductive field, but I'm guessing carbon fibre won't, and being that most bikes thess days that aren't made of aluminium are made of carbon fibre I don't imagine you'll see too many cyclists waiting for the lights to change.

[oneofsix]

That advise for cyclists looka as if it might have been dreamed up by some blind ignorant twat who has never even sat on a bicycle. Fuck all works on a bicycle.
Not sure if aluminium will create the inductive field, but I'm guessing carbon fibre won't, and being that most bikes thess days that aren't made of aluminium are made of carbon fibre I don't imagine you'll see too many cyclists waiting for the lights to change.

Don't think I have ever seen a cyclist wait at the lights unless the traffic is heavy in which case there are plenty of cages there too. But those weirdos aside it seems to work for my motorbike. :laugh:

[Bald Eagle]

The Boulevrd is fat enough to trip the lights.:facepalm:

[Laava]

Lets start a, Stationary Lights Action Group!

[oneofsix]

The Boulevrd is fat enough to trip the lights.:facepalm:

Well it aint the rider unless you had too many fries with your latest tag :laugh:


Lets start a, Stationary Lights Action Group!

Don't you go slagging off this thread :shifty:

[Big Dave]

I think it's just the placebo effect put to good use.




Yeah. Like I have poor powers of observation. :-)

[Big Dave]

That will cause my engine to cutout :blink:




You just have to be smarter than the gearbox.

[oneofsix]

You just have to be smarter than the gearbox.

Yeah, neutral would work :facepalm: funny how I'd automatically do that when on the bike but focus on the cutout switch when behind the keyboard. :o

[Big Dave]

Yeah, neutral would work :facepalm: funny how I'd automatically do that when on the bike but focus on the cutout switch when behind the keyboard. :o

What about those early triumph stand switches back in the 90's. They would cut the bike out when it was going.

[oneofsix]

What about those early triumph stand switches back in the 90's. They would cut the bike out when it was going.

Ouch that sounds like great fun. Barrelling down the motorway at 90k and the bike cuts out :wings:

only 90k because we are talking 90s trump :shifty: think I'll run and hide now.

[Big Dave]

Ouch that sounds like great fun. Barrelling down the motorway at 90k and the bike cuts out :wings:

only 90k because we are talking 90s trump :shifty: think I'll run and hide now.

Arrow -> Indian.



Highway wasn't so bad. Just pull the clutch in and brake.

Low speed cornering was an almost unavoidable drop.

[Orca]

Never had that problem on a K100. Could probably loan you 20Kg and still manage the lights.....

[huff3r]

That advise for cyclists looka as if it might have been dreamed up by some blind ignorant twat who has never even sat on a bicycle. Fuck all works on a bicycle.
Not sure if aluminium will create the inductive field, but I'm guessing carbon fibre won't, and being that most bikes thess days that aren't made of aluminium are made of carbon fibre I don't imagine you'll see too many cyclists waiting for the lights to change.

Has always worked for my Alloy Bicycle. And for the GN as well.

Not 95%, definitely 100% of the time.

(I use a turn signal, with very little traffic, on a daily basis)

[mossy1200]

My MT is a large hunk of metal that activates road loops and is a chick magnet also. Only problem is they are mostly loopy also.

[sootie]

Dave and Sootie, just to clarify how they work, they sense the inductance of the loop, the vehicle acts as the inductor core. No vehicle, low inductance, big vehicle, large inductance. Magnetic vehicles are up to fuck all cos the fields don't affect each other. Voltage induced by speed will be very minimal due to the low magnetic field strength (which would induce the voltage in the vehicle anyway), and the sensor looks for a frequency change due to the inductance change. Maybe riding fast into a loop with some huge magnets would induce enough voltage to breifly change the sensed frequency, but they probably just average that shit out anyway.

Hi Bogan - you are quite correct about inductance being used for traffic light vehicle detection now days (apologies). It is true that figure of 8 loops were once used to count fast moving magnetic objects (eg cars) but this is not the case here. (I did some checking up.)

Interestingly an inductive loop operating at around 100 Hz is used, and its inductance is decreased by the presence of any conductive material within its field. This is how this same technique can be used by treasure hunters on beaches to locate gold coins, aluminium etc. Ferro magnetic materials are not necessary, any conductor will work. Eddy currents are induced in the conductor & it acts a bit like a shorted transformer turn to reduce inductance.

My big bike has a duralium frame (plus some steel) which is detected quite well by traffic lights. It is my little largely plastic scooter which has a few problems presumably becuse it has only a small centrally located lump of conductive material.
Thanks for that ...

[ducatilover]

My MT is a large hunk of metal that activates road loops and is a chick magnet also. Only problem is they are mostly loopy also.
I really need one now :yes:

Hi Bogan - you are quite correct about inductance being used for traffic light vehicle detection now days (apologies). It is true that figure of 8 loops were once used to count fast moving magnetic objects (eg cars) but this is not the case here. (I did some checking up.)

Interestingly an inductive loop operating at around 100 Hz is used, and its inductance is decreased by the presence of any conductive material within its field. This is how this same technique can be used by treasure hunters on beaches to locate gold coins, aluminium etc. Ferro magnetic materials are not necessary, any conductor will work. Eddy currents are induced in the conductor & it acts a bit like a shorted transformer turn to reduce inductance.

My big bike has a duralium frame (plus some steel) which is detected quite well by traffic lights. It is my little largely plastic scooter which has a few problems presumably becuse it has only a small centrally located lump of conductive material.
Thanks for that ... My 600 doesn't like to activate lights, is it something to do with the only steel being the axles, crank, cams, valves and rods?
The GN is just a joke...

[sootie]

I really need one now :yes:
My 600 doesn't like to activate lights, is it something to do with the only steel being the axles, crank, cams, valves and rods?
The GN is just a joke...
The quick answer is probably yes!
The most easily detected thing (once again I acknowledge my earlier mistake about magnets) would be a large conductive ring, eg a hula hoop made of aluminium or other conductor. The duralium cage frame of my ZZR is probably quite good for a motorcycle. The bottom pressed steel floor of a car obviously works well too.

Perhaps I can start a new trend - hula hoops for bikes! :killingme:

[sootie]

My MT is a large hunk of metal that activates road loops and is a chick magnet also. Only problem is they are mostly loopy also.

Not sure how we could turn a hula hoop for bikes in to a Chick Magnet, but it sounds reasonable.
Is it the bike or the attracted chics that are loopy?? :innocent:

[mossy1200]

Not sure how we could turn a hula hoop for bikes in to a Chick Magnet, but it sounds reasonable.
Is it the bike or the attracted chics that are loopy?? :innocent:

Could be me. All my ex chics were well loopy.

[sootie]

Could be me. All my ex chics were well loopy.

Once you get the sex thing sorted out, I think men & women do seem to have trouble with each other.
The mental processes are just so different at every level, but gee its fun!!! :laugh: