Part of Society? - For Akzle [Archive]

Banditbandit

1st November 2012, 09:22

I took this into a new thread as it was way off the topic of the other one ...

a) a society is legally defined. "new zealand is under the jurisdiction of crown legislation"
- i do not fit the legal definition. therefore, legally, i am not part of your society.

New Zealand" is not a society - it is a collection of small islands and is the name of a nation - defined as a "group of people living within a clearly defined boundary and defending that boundary agasinst outsiders." If you live within the boundaries of New Zealand (i.e. within this group of island) you are partr of this nation ... anythign else is a legal fiction with no basis in reality ...

If you live within the boundaries of the nation AND partake of any of the benefits or services of the society then, whether you like it or not, you are part of that society ...

If you partake of any of the services but contribute nothing back - then you sir, are a parasite ... Now I suspect that you do give something back - such as roasd user charges, you are likely to pay GST (when you shop - another form of participation ...) .. so you are not really a parasite - you are just deluding yourself and tryign to live like a parasite ..

and since you're a good law abiding cunt, that's the end of that.

Who said I am a good law abiding cunt? You know as much about me as I know about you - which is practically nothing ...

I have found, by experience, that true freedom lies in flying under the radar - I.E. Not sticking your head up and getting caught ...

The laws I choose to follow I follow because either I think they are good laws .. or the personal consequences of gettign caught make breaking the law too risky ... I take personal responsiblity for my own actions - makig decisions about my behaviour within the contexts required and NOT guided by the law - except where it impacts on potential consequiences of my actions and whetrher I am prepared to accept those consequences.

b) i do not "do nothing"

So tell us what you do then ...

c) i put it to you to provide an interpretation of anarchism, which, it so happens, isn't at all what i'm after or proponing.
c-i) your suspicion has completely missed the mark, but please, elaborate on "my misinterpretation of anarchism"

I am prepared to admit that my suspicions were wrong ... you are not proposing anarchism ...

d) i'm actually fairly removed, by choice, from "what happens in YOUR country"

"fairly removed" is not totally removed - and yes, sorry, you are part of us ... maybe a deviant part - but still a part ..

You are using the electricity of our society to promote and argue your views? I wonder how you live? Economically? Apart from New Zealand (It was a bit of an assumption that you do live within these islands ...) ????

So please elaborate on how you manage this one?

d-i) by what right do you claim this to be YOUR country?

Ahi Kaa - prior right of occupation - my tipuna were here in the begining of time ... I te timatanga o te Ao ka haere Paerangi Ma ki Te Whare Toka (Ruapehu Maunga). Ka noho Paerangi ma i te tahi o Te Whare Toka ...

Paerangi and his people were living at Ruapehu when Kupe came here - and when Aotea waka came here ...

d-ii) at what point in time was i consulted on how, where and when they build roads?

Of course you were never consulted directly - many of the roads were there when we were born ... and others which have been built have been with the agreement of our elected representatives - either council of Parliament - and therefore, in theory, have the delegated authority to buolt the roads .. but again - if they are not your roads and you have made no contribution to their upkeep - then stop sing them - Of course, if you have paid your motorcycle registration, then you have paid somethign towards our roads - and if yuou buty our petrol you hacve made a contribution towards our roads - and I am terribly sorry, but no matter what polticial stance you portray, the reality is that you have been sucked into our society ... you can either accpet that and get on with it - or maintain some sort of legal/philosophical fiction which in reality is a delusion ..

d-iii) would you prefer i took a tank everywhere, but instead of using roads, rolled over "private land"?

Neither - I think you need to accept that you are actually a part of our society - an involuntary part, but nevertheless a part of our society ... either that or go somewhere else ...

d-iv) again. seriously. who gave you this country?

My tipuna - who handed it down from long ago to the generations of the future - exactly as I wil hand it down to the future generations of Aotearoa New Zealand .. as Taonga Tuku Iho.

or the right to make decisions about it?

Rights are a legal fiction promoted only by the incompetent. Whether I can make decisions about this country or not depends on my ability to back up what I say with political force - and as Mao said "Politicla Power grows out of the barrel of a gun". I am prepared to use a gun ... at this point in time, my praxis says there is little point in using the gun because, as the Baader-Meinhoff and variants proved, it will achieve very little.

Democracy is possibly the best political system human beings have come up with - as an Anarchist I work towards a greater personal freedom for individuals - and there wil always be that work as total personal freedom, with the current political, social and psychological state of human beings.

And I have a vote - just like every other adult human being born within the boundaries of this nation - anlon with those granted citizenship as well

who gave you the right to dictate how anyone ese should live?

As an anarchist I would say no-one did .. I am not telling you how to live ... I would never do that . that si to remove your personal freedom and responsiblity. I have never told you how to live - I have only told tyou that your stance as not paert of our society is BULLSHIT!!! e) : b)

see. this guy gets it.

I "got it" years ago .. and then I learnt many other things ... and my own experience, my praxis, my political thinking tells me you are wrong ..

HenryDorsetCase

1st November 2012, 09:32

Praxis? The Klingon moon that exploded which, with the assistance of James T Kirk and the crew of the Enterprise resulted in the galactic detente and peace with the Klingon Empire chronicled in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country? That Praxis?

I agree with you, thats by far the best original cast film.

As for the rest of the "wall of green"? TL;DR

imdying

1st November 2012, 10:19

I agree with you, thats by far the best original cast film.Nah, nothing beats "nuclear wessels" :D

Banditbandit

1st November 2012, 10:24

HenryDorsetCase

1st November 2012, 10:43

Nah, nothing beats "nuclear wessels" :D

Hell yeah, that scene in ST IV: TVH where they're aboard the Enterprise CVN 65 and Chekov is trying to talk his way out of it with a thick russian accent is GOLD. I love the bit with Kirk and Spock on the bus, and Scotty making the clear aluminium.

Thats probably tied for second place with ST II: TWOK as my favourites. The rule is, even numbers good, odd numbers bad.

(except X which sucked)

James Deuce

1st November 2012, 10:43

Anarchy is the absence of government and does not imply chaos. We're simply conditioned to believe that only a central government can successfully govern a country. Switzerland does rather give lie to that idea, however they have rather more human teeth in their bank vaults than I feel comfortable with.

HenryDorsetCase

1st November 2012, 11:10

Big Dave

1st November 2012, 11:22

http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/579058_437926409566444_1456860323_n.jpg

@ HDC :-)

mashman

1st November 2012, 11:23

I am not a part of your society. I take part in it because I have no choice. Give me the reigns and I'll show you mine.

Meanwhile, on topic...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hShY6xZWVGE

HenryDorsetCase

1st November 2012, 11:24

@ HDC :-)

thank you for my new desktop wallpaper. I will miss the tasty 1962 benelli that used to be there but that is GOLD!

I also am eating my sammich and there are crumbs on my keyboard and monitor... :)

imdying

1st November 2012, 12:12

Hell yeah, that scene in ST IV: TVH where they're aboard the Enterprise CVN 65 and Chekov is trying to talk his way out of it with a thick russian accent is GOLD. I love the bit with Kirk and Spock on the bus, and Scotty making the clear aluminium.

Thats probably tied for second place with ST II: TWOK as my favourites. The rule is, even numbers good, odd numbers bad.

(except X which sucked)Heh, how about 'Computer. Hello Computer" :laugh:

Definitely my fav :yes:

/edit: Yeah, Mashmans got it!

Banditbandit

1st November 2012, 12:25

THIS THREAD IS BORING. unless it is about star trek and rock and roll, which are not boring.

Yes - it was largely aimed at Akzle . and taken out of another irrelevent thread .. If you find it boring, don't participate

007XX

1st November 2012, 12:37

HenryDorsetCase

1st November 2012, 12:37

Yes - it was largely aimed at Akzle . and taken out of another irrelevent thread .. If you find it boring, don't participate

Nah mate, I'm like Mr Akzle. I AM NOT PART OF YOUR SOCIETY I PARTICIPATE ON MY OWN TERMS BECAUSE I AM A RUGGED INDIVIDUALIST AND I SPOUT TRITE POLITICAL NONSENSE WITHOUT THE INTELLECTUAL OR EDUCATIONAL CAPACITY TO CRITICALLY ANALYSE THEM OR COMPARE THEM WITH OTHER SYSTEMS OR INDEED TO APPRECIATE THE SILLY CONTRADICTIONS THAT ARE APPARENT IF YOU SPEND MORE THAN FIVE SECONDS THINKING ABOUT THEM, man.

Plus I like STAR TREK. A lot. and there is insufficient of it here and if I can hijack this thread for lulz I will because thats the sort of guy I am, man.

HenryDorsetCase

1st November 2012, 12:38

No disrespect, but fact is, we all know that an individual who lives in a country and believes him/herself outside the law and out of all society's parameters is just deluding him/herself.

Is it worth your time and brain power to try to reason with a delusional individual?

Just saying, however much I enjoy the way you present your viewpoints :)

your avatar turns me on. I'm just saying.

007XX

1st November 2012, 12:42

your avatar turns me on. I'm just saying.

So does yours for me... All mysterious and stuff :shutup:

You wouldn't be trying to send this thread to pink hell by going off topic, now would you?

98tls

1st November 2012, 12:43

Nice timing indeed,on my days off and planing an evening in with a few Beams,booked my seat for later.

007XX

1st November 2012, 12:45

Who's taking charge of the popcorn?:corn:

I got dibs on the armchair in the corner.

oneofsix

1st November 2012, 12:48

Nah mate, I'm like Mr Akzle. I AM NOT PART OF YOUR SOCIETY I PARTICIPATE ON MY OWN TERMS BECAUSE I AM A RUGGED INDIVIDUALIST AND I SPOUT TRITE POLITICAL NONSENSE WITHOUT THE INTELLECTUAL OR EDUCATIONAL CAPACITY TO CRITICALLY ANALYSE THEM OR COMPARE THEM WITH OTHER SYSTEMS OR INDEED TO APPRECIATE THE SILLY CONTRADICTIONS THAT ARE APPARENT IF YOU SPEND MORE THAN FIVE SECONDS THINKING ABOUT THEM, man.
.

but that is a valid differentiation of NZ society so not only are you part of it but you are also a prime example of the individuals that make it up. Just don't take that to mean a good or worthy example. :shutup:

Banditbandit

1st November 2012, 12:54

Banditbandit

1st November 2012, 12:55

@ HDC :-)

Bwhahaha .. I never expect things on KBer deeper than my cat's food bowl

Banditbandit

1st November 2012, 12:57

Nah mate, I'm like Mr Akzle. I AM NOT PART OF YOUR SOCIETY I PARTICIPATE ON MY OWN TERMS BECAUSE I AM A RUGGED INDIVIDUALIST AND I SPOUT TRITE POLITICAL NONSENSE WITHOUT THE INTELLECTUAL OR EDUCATIONAL CAPACITY TO CRITICALLY ANALYSE THEM OR COMPARE THEM WITH OTHER SYSTEMS OR INDEED TO APPRECIATE THE SILLY CONTRADICTIONS THAT ARE APPARENT IF YOU SPEND MORE THAN FIVE SECONDS THINKING ABOUT THEM, man.

Plus I like STAR TREK. A lot. and there is insufficient of it here and if I can hijack this thread for lulz I will because thats the sort of guy I am, man.

My Gawd .. I'll bet you're the geek who can quote large sections of dialogue fronm almost all episodes of Star Trek !!!

I'll bet you can even tell me the episode that Kirk said "Beam me up Scotty". ...

oneofsix

1st November 2012, 13:01

007XX

1st November 2012, 13:03

Thank you.

Yes, I'm a bit of a political animal and such discussions amuse me .. so it's largely a self-amusement thing (just don't tell Akxle that)

Hmmm... Dscussions and debating, I am all for. However in this instance, I predict the opposing argument might leave you a tad dissatisfied. Something along the lines of having been weighed, measured and still found wanting iykwim.

But whatever amuses you dear. It is, after all, still a free country :shifty:

GTRMAN

1st November 2012, 13:07

Praxis is a good marxist idea . the interface of theory and action ... action informs theory,informs action, imforms theory - an ongoing progression ...

Theory without action is sterile .. action without theory is futile ... Praxis is everything ...

Akzle is acting from theory only - a sterile and bullshit course ..

IAncient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek), praxis referred to activity engaged in by free men. Aristotle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle) held that there were three basic activities of man: theoria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theoria), poiesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poiesis) and praxis. That said it is still an apt description

GTRMAN

1st November 2012, 13:09

IAncient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek), praxis referred to activity engaged in by free men. Aristotle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle) held that there were three basic activities of man: theoria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theoria), poiesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poiesis) and praxis. That said it is still an apt description

See how that is done? Cut and paste from wikipedia...... then colour it all green and try and sell it as an original and personal tought...

HenryDorsetCase

1st November 2012, 13:59

My Gawd .. I'll bet you're the geek who can quote large sections of dialogue fronm almost all episodes of Star Trek !!!

I'll bet you can even tell me the episode that Kirk said "Beam me up Scotty". ...

From memory (no google) that line never appeared in Star Trek canon. the closest was "Beam us up" IIRC.

My Star Trek geek nerd days are a long time ago. Well last week. Thats a long time if you have a memory span of a goldfish.

this beats drafting commercial leases I must say.

HenryDorsetCase

1st November 2012, 14:06

Fuck yeah!

Wikipedia agrees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beam_me_up,_Scotty

My favourite Star Trek thing is in teh pilot episode "The Cage": Talos IV and all that. in one of the scenes there is a grave with Kirk's headstone: "James R Kirk". Not a mistake, they hadnt worked out his full name when they shot it, also they did the pilot and it wasn't picked up so they ditched a lot of sets and whatnot, then they got a second pilot which was picked up. So they had to recreate the sets, they also amended the costumes (look carefully at the uniforms: no black collars) Spock's makeup was different as were his eyebrows, and some big stuff like the rail round the bridge in the pilot is either red or black but in TOS it is black or red. I can't remember offhand which way round it is and its been a while since I've seen it. That episode (technically two episodes) is my favourite. Plus its got Christopher Pike in it.

My least favourite is "Spock's Brain" which is just silly.

Thanks for asking. What? you didnt ask?

BoristheBiter

1st November 2012, 14:06

Theory without action is sterile .. resistance is futile ... the borg is everything ...
.

Fixed that for you.

BoristheBiter

1st November 2012, 14:08

From memory (no google) that line never appeared in Star Trek canon. the closest was "Beam us up" IIRC.

My Star Trek geek nerd days are a long time ago. Well last week. Thats a long time if you have a memory span of a goldfish.

this beats drafting commercial leases I must say.

I would says the closest was "Scotty, beam me up" ST4

007XX

1st November 2012, 14:13

scissorhands

1st November 2012, 14:18

No disrespect, but fact is, we all know that an individual who lives in a country and believes him/herself outside the law and out of all society's parameters is just deluding him/herself.
Is it worth your time and brain power to try to reason with a delusional individual?

I think his error count regarding logic is very low.
I think he just uses allegory and invents things for effect, like talking with kiddies
So many programs to download and install....
I'm updating Grand Honky Supremo mkII

007XX

1st November 2012, 14:22

I think his error count regarding logic is very low.
I think he just uses allegory and invents things for effect, like talking with kiddies
So many programs to download and install....
I'm updating Grand Honky Supremo mkII

It is not so much the logic I am questioning but the inconsistencies in reasoning.

Not that it matters really, I'm just a passing by observer these days.

mashman

1st November 2012, 14:57

It is not so much the logic I am questioning but the inconsistencies in reasoning.

Not that it matters really, I'm just a passing by observer these days.

Last time I said that was this morning on the train whilst discussing women.

Said that too.

HenryDorsetCase

1st November 2012, 15:23

I think his error count regarding logic is very low.
I think he just uses allegory and invents things for effect, like talking with kiddies
So many programs to download and install....
I'm updating Grand Honky Supremo mkII

Grand Honky Supremo v2.1 would be a fantastic user description just under your username. Just saying.

Banditbandit

1st November 2012, 15:40

From memory (no google) that line never appeared in Star Trek canon.

And bling to you sir. You are correct - I knew that when I asked the question .. don't need the supposatory of all knowledge to back you up. (Someone shoto me now .. I sound like a Star Trek Geek ... )

Post-script

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to HenryDorsetCase again."

007XX

1st November 2012, 15:46

Last time I said that was this morning on the train whilst discussing women.

Said that too.

Bi it is then... No worries though, so am I.

For what it's worth, I don't understand women either :bleh:

Edbear

1st November 2012, 16:34

SMOKEU

1st November 2012, 17:00

See how that is done? Cut and paste from wikipedia

FFS, why don't people know the difference between copy and cut?

James Deuce

1st November 2012, 17:09

FFS, why don't people know the difference between copy and cut?
Same reason we keep letting Sarfies into NZ.

007XX

1st November 2012, 17:22

KB is great, isn't it?

It used to be, then it went a tad dismal.

However, it would seem things are on the up.

scumdog

1st November 2012, 17:26

However, it would seem things are on the up.

Hmm, just as you would prefer eh??:blip::msn-wink::innocent:

Road kill

1st November 2012, 17:41

Same reason we keep letting Sarfies into NZ.

What you mean "we" white man ?:bleh:

BoristheBiter

1st November 2012, 18:17

Same reason we keep letting Sarfies into NZ.

Don't you mean yarpies?

007XX

1st November 2012, 19:00

Hmm, just as you would prefer eh??:blip::msn-wink::innocent:

See now that is just slender, right there!

I'm reformed, don't you know? :innocent:

scumdog

1st November 2012, 19:38

See now that is just slender, right there!

I'm reformed, don't you know? :innocent:

Ahhh...no, I didn't realise:eek:
(And can't tell the difference!)

Big Dave

1st November 2012, 20:03

Same reason we keep letting Sarfies into NZ.

So they can get citizenship and move over here?

98tls

1st November 2012, 20:26

This is all wonderful but...to be honest not what i thought i would tune into.Wheres whatever his name is,he who doesnt exist blah blah.

mashman

1st November 2012, 21:36

This is all wonderful but...to be honest not what i thought i would tune into.Wheres whatever his name is,he who doesnt exist blah blah.

All dressed up and nowhere to go eh... awwwww. How's about a kitty pic

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTOk7oPzTGrNBuUG_FCw81YlYsSOe_58 AQEICudkCrtYZK6eZLu

Akzle

1st November 2012, 22:28

... (stuff)

jeeeeeeeebus. well. guess it'd be rude not to show up. not like i feel i owe you anything. and you did a much better impression of spelling engrish this round.

bullet points!:
- we are arguing from two different platforms. law, legal, legislation, boundaries, words, claims etc ARE ALL FICTION.

-a "society" is legally defined as: "A group of people joined by mutual consent to deliberate, determine and act toward a common goal"

i do not mutually consent, i do not believe in the goals of the NZ govt/society and if you can point to one (legally) "common" goal.. well, hats off.

-who is defending the border? we got a stack of foreigners on this land...

-given that "New Zealand" is a fiction, (claimed) territory is a fiction, and generally everything else is a fiction, it actually has "no basis in reality"

this is your mao quote - the only people with "authority" nowadays, have to have the guns to enforce it. the current crowd claiming NZ have a gang in blue vests and holdens, enforcing their claim.

"natural authority" relies on the assent of the people/individual being "governed", there is no subjugation, no force required.

everyone comes under one (much) higher authority than the small men in parliament, that'd be the creator, whatever you believe, you were created. (were you the proponent of evolution from pond scum?) personally, i'm with some kind of intelligent design/higher consciousness. everything stems from consciousness, as a human you cannot create consciousness, so there is a force higher than human.

-righto. i haven't quite got it down to not buying anything, i like stuff, modern commerce requires the "money"/debt to do so, so i do contribute GST.
you're welcome.
i do not pay rego, road user etc etc etc.

i am not trying to live like a parasite, quite the opposite. i'm trying to go completely off grid.

-if you were free, you wouldn't have to "fly under the radar" if you are doing no harm to anyone else, noone else should feel a social obligation to stop you from doing anything.

you rebel you, you choose not to follow laws. (me too)
you take responsibility for what you do (me too)

- i do quite a bit. beyond the scope of this thread, though. goes with that "trying to live off grid" above.

- i am solar powered. so no, i'm not "using the electricity of your society"
i'm using the energy of the cosmos, man!

- if you mean i live "economically" in monetary terms, yes, i generally live on the cheap.

- prior right of occupation? dunno about you, i'm human. we've been on the planet for 10, 000 years or more. i have a lawful claim to 1/6 billionth of the planet.

you're thinking small man. way too small. i am citizen earth.

- "the agreement of our elected representatives" - i did not agree to anyone to represent me, i'm capable of representing myself. i also never voted for anyone to make decisions/"represent" for me. thus i retain the right to do so myself.

- again, would you prefer i drive a tank accross private land everywhere, or use a light vehicle on the roads?

if the roads are "public" ie, for EVERYONE, why should i not use them?

does that mean that people on holiday in the country can't use the roads, not being NZ citizens and thus contributing a lifetime of tax for them?

- again with the delusion/fictions. you're propping up more of them than me, and thus, from where i'm wanking, err... sitting, it's you that's deluded.

- "go somewhere else" i love this one. unfortunately you bite your own ass. you accept that NZ is a rightful distinction, you accept that the government has authority to make decisions for the "represented", you accept that you are part of the society, but you break the rules (but "keep your head down") - if you don't like the rules, why don't you go somewhere else?

- rights are a legal fiction.
really? you want to revise that at all before i get into it??
so as a man who is born, (assuming you had your ideal society with no governance (that's anarchy, eh?)) you mean to tell me you have no rights? that i can do whatever i want to you?

a "person" is a legal fiction, and, legally, has the capacity for "rights and duties"

a man, born under the creator, i would argue, has full rights, second only to the creator. noone can infringe against those rights except by force.

- "democracy is the best system" democracy is organised mob rule. technically 51% of the population can beat down 49%.
unfortunately we do not even have the blessing of true democracy, (nor anywhere in the world.)

your argument falls short for lack of anything to base it on.

- you work towards a greater personal freedom (me too)

- "there wil always be that work as total personal freedom, with the current political, social and psychological state of human beings."

yes, but why should the way it is affect the way it should be? i would submit that you're not free at all.
i've seen the argument "you have to be involved in the system to change it" i don't buy it. on account of it hasn't fucken changed.

- you have a vote? whoop dee fuck, how well has that worked out for your personal freedom?

- - you think i am wrong, i think you are wrong. maybe if you read what i've read you'd change your mind, maybe vicey versey. we are both working toward similar goals, but i think you're being held back by the fictions you've created around yourself, (for whatever reason).

you're held down by the small thinking of "i am NZ" "i am anarchist" boundaries and borders and definitions - ALL FICTIONS.

you're deluded if you think voting does any more than encourage the criminality at the top. you're twice deluded if you think those at the top aren't criminals.

THIS THREAD IS BORING.

Nah mate, I'm like Mr Akzle. I AM NOT PART OF YOUR SOCIETY I PARTICIPATE ON MY OWN TERMS BECAUSE I AM A RUGGED INDIVIDUALIST AND I SPOUT TRITE POLITICAL NONSENSE WITHOUT THE INTELLECTUAL OR EDUCATIONAL CAPACITY TO CRITICALLY ANALYSE THEM OR COMPARE THEM WITH OTHER SYSTEMS OR INDEED TO APPRECIATE THE SILLY CONTRADICTIONS THAT ARE APPARENT IF YOU SPEND MORE THAN FIVE SECONDS THINKING ABOUT THEM, man.

baha. you're not even a REAL lawyer, i find out now.

boring people get bored.

your problem is that you think i need to compare it to anything, a problem shared with your mate up top, "democracy is the best politcal system" - no. churchill had a good answer to this. it might appear better than communism (anyone notice how china didn't have a recession?) or dictatorship (how's the "interrim" govenor of fiji?) but that doesn't make it good.
the one thing i may compare society/government/anything else to is my ideal. utopia, if you will.

but please, you're sofa king enlightened. share your wisdom with us plebs...

((and i never post in all caps. that's socially irresponsible....))

It is not so much the logic I am questioning but the inconsistencies in reasoning.

Not that it matters really, I'm just a passing by observer these days.

bahahahha. who needs consistency when you have beer?!
consistency is the antithesis of everything. if you're consistent you're influid, if you're influid you're boring. if you're boring you'll spout off about shit without contributing anything or moving the discussion forward.

welcome to the thread.

James Deuce

1st November 2012, 22:31

So they can get citizenship and move over here?
Hooray, the plan is working!

scissorhands

1st November 2012, 23:33

fook I need another beer

Akzle

1st November 2012, 23:50

Akzle

1st November 2012, 23:51

fook I need another beer

fucken star wars bullshit will do that.

(anyone seen the 'merikan designs for star wars. lulz. they have a "space defence" department. yay money.)

scumdog

2nd November 2012, 05:14

if the roads are "public" ie, for EVERYONE, why should i not use them?

Being a but selective ain't ya?
I wonder how many other things of this society you claim NOT to be part of you use when it suits?

scumdog

2nd November 2012, 05:19

a man, born under the creator, i would argue, has full rights, second only to the creator. noone can infringe against those rights except by force.

RIGHTS? what freakin' rights?

Without society you would have no rights, with society your so called rights could be quashed in an instant, nobody has 'rights' just because they exist...(ask a starving African orphan how his rights are doing...)

scumdog

2nd November 2012, 05:25

"democracy is the best politcal system" - no. churchill had a good answer to this. it might appear better than communism (anyone notice how china didn't have a recession?)

.

China is adopting (at long last) a Western way, (have you seen the massive spike in car ownership f'rinsatance?) And it did have a downturn, not as bad as the West but that was not because of Communism, it is because of its increasing reliance on Consumerism.

If the rest of the world suddenly stopped buying Chinese it would be fooked. (again)

And why do Chinese have less rights than us???

scissorhands

2nd November 2012, 06:50

My rights in NZ are curbed due to autistic spectrum disorder, and public perception of autism [which is improving at a rapid rate of knots]. But I avoid contact with much of society because of it.
Most autistics are scathing of society
Society has not yet integrated the type, a 1%er group of peps with poor social skills, so have stayed under the radar for years/millennia.

Like recent struggles for women, blacks and gays, a time will come when the spotlight hits the autistic dilemma, but only as more and more are appearing. Number crunching 101 will ease their discomfort
...and more TV shows will have autistic characters like Bones and BBTheory
as sad and offensive parody's of all the engineers, wizz kids and intellectually orientated rather than social breed of human

become the object of humour and derision

So basically if I am unappealing for being the wrong colour, a woman, gay or a bit of a tard
.....because of society....
rejecting a non accepting society is a natural honest response

oneofsix

2nd November 2012, 07:00

My rights in NZ are curbed due to autistic spectrum disorder, and public perception of autism [which is improving at a rapid rate of knots].

Most autistics are scathing of society

society has not yet integrated the type, a 1%er group of peps with poor social skills, so have stayed under the radar for years/millennia.

Like recent struggles for women, blacks and gays, a time will come when the spotlight hits the autistic dilemma, especially as more and more are appearing
...and more TV shows will have autistic characters like Bones and BBTheory
as sad and offensive parody's of all the engineers, wizz kids and intellectually orientated rather than social breed of human

become the object of humour and derision

So basically if I am unappealing for being the wrong colour, a woman, black or a bit of a tard
.....because of society....
fuck you too is a natural honest response

Your rights aren't curb, you have just as few as the rest of us, might be that you can't make full use of all of them because you fail to emphasize with those around you but you still have those rights and therefore the attendant responsibilities. When you can attend to your responsibilities you can exercise your rights.
:corn:

007XX

2nd November 2012, 08:25

Ahhh...no, I didn't realise:eek:
(And can't tell the difference!)

Fine, I love you too :bleh:

[COLOR="#139922"]
bahahahha. who needs consistency when you have beer?!
consistency is the antithesis of everything. if you're consistent you're influid, if you're influid you're boring. if you're boring you'll spout off about shit without contributing anything or moving the discussion forward.

welcome to the thread.

Hmmmm... Sorry, don't do beer. And in all fairness, I am only following this thread because you intrigue me.

Politics have never had any appeal as I don't trust anybody to have my best interest at heart. Consummerism and greed are the only two moving forces in this world and as much as I would like to go off grid, I am totally unconvinced that it is entirely possible, unless one moves to Great Barrier Island and decides to raise goats to sustain themselves.

Your argument is tangible to a point, and I must admit almost compelling, if it wasn't for that giant bag of chips on your shoulder.

Inconsistencies?
1-having an issue with foreigners in this country, while claiming yourself a "Citizen of Earth with a claim to 1/6 billionth of this planet.

2-having the right to represent yourself. Should be interesting if/when you get caught and trialled for your dealing in marijuanna. We'll see how well your "I'm outside your laws" thinking is going to do then in a court of law.

3- "if you don't like the rules, why don't you move somewhere else?" That one truly puzzles me... Why would YOU stay in an environment which you are so clearly disapproving of?
Could it be because you actually have the freedom to be your pseudo outlaw self, what with this flailing democracy system giving some leeway towards achieving this goal?

How about you go and have a look in places such as the Congo or Southern America for example, where the powers that be are truly corrupt and people really fight for their rights, nay, their ability to survive on a daily basis, and see if you wing your freedom to be a rebel mentality there.

scissorhands

2nd November 2012, 08:44

Your rights aren't curb, you have just as few as the rest of us, might be that you can't make full use of all of them because you fail to emphasize with those around you but you still have those rights and therefore the attendant responsibilities. When you can attend to your responsibilities you can exercise your rights.
:corn:

I have empathy for many things, but I can never be a *normal* as your stipulated prerequisite for rights demands.
Check my human and animal rights efforts
I may have more empathy than you...
'Autistics dont have empathy' is some of the BS out there, many have too much
But no, I cant relate to normals very well at all

oneofsix

2nd November 2012, 08:49

I have empathy for many things, but I can never be a *normal* as your stipulated prerequisite for rights demands.
Check my human and animal rights efforts
I may have more empathy than you...
'Autistics dont have empathy' is some of the BS out there, many have too much
But no, I cant relate to normals very well at all

empathy or sympathy? Whatever doesn't matter about the words it is the relating to "normals" that matters. When I don't relate well I too can't then exercise my "rights" but I would be what you term a "normal". The rights still exist, just can't use them.

BoristheBiter

2nd November 2012, 09:01

i am not trying to live like a parasite, quite the opposite. i'm trying to go completely off grid.

- i do quite a bit. beyond the scope of this thread, though. goes with that "trying to live off grid" above.

bahahahha. who needs consistency when you have beer?!

If you want to live off the grid why are you on the internet?
you say you are happy to do this yet you seem the need to explain yourself to great detail, somewhat saying you need some sort of approval.
Did you not get cuddles from mummy and daddy was never there even if you knew which one of your uncles he was?

Did you make that beer yourself or are you buying into society's consumerism?

And we are taking about star trek not star wars.

Genestho

2nd November 2012, 09:08

Crikey!!

What an excruciating read.... If the 'man of green font' was off the grid, or trying - we on teh interwebs certainly wouldn't be hearing about it! :weird: Not even after Beer!!

Pretty sure friends in Byron Bay/Nimbin, nor the Coromandel who live their own ways, non confrontationally and self sufficiently providing for themselves, wouldn't be bothered telling anyone who'd listen how they "live on the edge of society, man"!

Anyway, good luck to ya!

Akzle

2nd November 2012, 09:27

Hmmmm... Sorry, don't do beer. And in all fairness, I am only following this thread because you intrigue me.

Inconsistencies?
1-having an issue with foreigners in this country, while claiming yourself a "Citizen of Earth with a claim to 1/6 billionth of this planet.

2-Should be interesting if/when you get caught and trialled for your dealing in marijuanna. We'll see how well your "I'm outside your laws" thinking is going to do then in a court of law.

3- ...Could it be because you actually have the freedom to be your pseudo outlaw self, what with this flailing democracy system giving some leeway towards achieving this goal?

hey, i'm in town. i can "intrigue" you all night long if ya want... :D :buggerd:
(but i'm intimidated by your bike, so be gentle with me)

1- mocking the mockers. there's no such thing as foreigners. that's a fiction.

2- i interact with police on a semi-regular basis, and always rock my plenipotentiary adjudicunt shit. works outright about 50% of the time.
and if you hit up some youtube videos you'll see that "sovereign men" do fairly well in open court. we don't play in the crown courts, because they're fucked up. (conflict of interest, unlawful, i'm not part of the "law society" either, etc)
we convene courts de jure, generally under common law rights. very few judges want to go on record saying they deny you your common law rights.

(ps, i don't actually "deal" marajuana. just grow, smoke and share it, there's not often money involved)

3- you're right. ish. but again, if i were elsewhere, the middle east say, i'd be packing an AK47 and voicing my opinion in some kind of street rioting type behaviour, executing politicians. asides from "i aint got enough money or a big enough boat to go anywhere else",
i do enjoy the relative freedom of these islands. the means to argue by my mind rather than my gun cabinet.

But no, I cant relate to normals very well at all
well, you'll get along swimmingly 'round here...

If you want to live off the grid why are you on the internet?
you say you are happy to do this yet you seem the need to explain yourself to great detail, somewhat saying you need some sort of approval.

Did you make that beer yourself or are you buying into society's consumerism?

i'm explaining myself for the benefit of the daft. i'm not seeking approval, (fuck knows i don't get much 'round here) i may inspire or intrigue someone, to think about some shit, and reconsider their previously sheepily fixed views of the system that's going to rob them of the best years of their lives then pay them a pittance to die. (if you're lucky)

people also tend to rebutt short statements, so i explain the whyfore, ahead of the why.

why am i on the internets? how else would i meet such lovely people as you all?

my five gallon bucket says i make beer myself.

// the reason you have 12000 posts, scum puppy, is that you can't seem to fucken multiquote. you take 4 posts to say what most people would in one, and all of it is shit.

gtfo my thread.

oneofsix

2nd November 2012, 09:36

Akzle, you disappoint me with your explanation as to how come you feel not part of society and yet entitled to use the interwebs. I was expecting something more along the lines of the interwebs being available to all societies or none but not part of or belonging to any society. :(

Banditbandit

2nd November 2012, 09:36

jeeeeeeeebus. well. guess it'd be rude not to show up. not like i feel i owe you anything. and you did a much better impression of spelling engrish this round.

Thanks for the response.

I don't give a fuck about spelling .. when I can be bothered I edit and correct - but spelling is just one of those rule things y'know ...

bullet points!:
- we are arguing from two different platforms. law, legal, legislation, boundaries, words, claims etc ARE ALL FICTION.

-a "society" is legally defined as: "A group of people joined by mutual consent to deliberate, determine and act toward a common goal"

Yeah - I get all that ... legal fictions ... I'm not arguing legal fictions, which is an analytically correct position, but hardly a practical useful one ... I'm arguing from functional occurence with practical references points. Whe we say "our gold medalists" or "New ZEaland gold medalist" we are not talking about the legal fictionof a country - but the practical occurences of our actual lives. When New ZEaland beats Australia at Netball it is not the legal fiction that has played and won ..

i do not mutually consent, i do not believe in the goals of the NZ govt/society and if you can point to one (legally) "common" goal.. well, hats off.

Goals? I am unsure where that comes from - I never thought we had "common goals" ...

-who is defending the border? we got a stack of foreigners on this land...

Yes .. and some of us have been pissed off at that for 200 years - So - are you one of the immigrants? Ngā mihi ki a koe ...

-given that "New Zealand" is a fiction, (claimed) territory is a fiction, and generally everything else is a fiction, it actually has "no basis in reality"

Oh? It would seem that it is clearly defined by our coast line ... it's not as if it is some fictional line drawn on a map which apparently separates it from other countries, as occurs across Africa f'rinstance ... it's a clear defined boundary ... and it was first legally defined (Yes, I accept theat it is legally defined accurding to your rules) by us, the tangata whenua in 1835 in the Declaration of Independence, whose Māori authors called in New Zealand ... are you coming to OUR country to tel us OUR country does not exist ???

It may be a legal fiction in your western-derived worldview - and we bought into the wesdtern world's legal fiction to say "This is Ours" it is not a fiction in ours - but it is real, we stand on it, it has been handed down from mai rāno ...

this is your mao quote - the only people with "authority" nowadays, have to have the guns to enforce it. the current crowd claiming NZ have a gang in blue vests and holdens, enforcing their claim.

"natural authority" relies on the assent of the people/individual being "governed", there is no subjugation, no force required.

Yes - I agree. I have not consented, but neither have I rejected our "Government". I'm neutral on that one ...

everyone comes under one (much) higher authority than the small men in parliament, that'd be the creator, whatever you believe, you were created. (were you the proponent of evolution from pond scum?) personally, i'm with some kind of intelligent design/higher consciousness. everything stems from consciousness, as a human you cannot create consciousness, so there is a force higher than human.

There is not higher power or creator in my worldview - I am not subject to any authority- not even that fictional one ... but I would not say there is no force higher than human ... what privileges human beings over other life forms in the natural world?

-righto. i haven't quite got it down to not buying anything, i like stuff, modern commerce requires the "money"/debt to do so, so i do contribute GST.
you're welcome.
i do not pay rego, road user etc etc etc.

Good luck on the Gixxer with no rego ... you will eventually run into the enforcement agencies .. (unless you have it on display in the stting room) ... then you will see just how much you are not part of the system ...

i am not trying to live like a parasite, quite the opposite. i'm trying to go completely off grid.

Good luck with that ... I've come pretty close in the past ... still got stuck with paying rates - but I could have lived off my land .. food, water and energy were all avaliable ...

-if you were free, you wouldn't have to "fly under the radar" if you are doing no harm to anyone else, noone else should feel a social obligation to stop you from doing anything.

See we do agree on many things .. I do not harm others, I don't expect to stop other peopel doing what they want - and I expect other peopel to leave me anlone to do what I want as long as I don't harm others ... but the reality is that we are surrounded by law makers and law enforces .. so to avoid the unwanted consequences of my actions I fly under the radar ... it is more freeing to avoid being involved in the court processes than to take them on head on ... it's avoidance rather than acquiescence.

you rebel you, you choose not to follow laws. (me too)
you take responsibility for what you do (me too)

- i do quite a bit. beyond the scope of this thread, though. goes with that "trying to live off grid" above.

- i am solar powered. so no, i'm not "using the electricity of your society"
i'm using the energy of the cosmos, man!

- if you mean i live "economically" in monetary terms, yes, i generally live on the cheap.

Good luck - I have come close to that ideal ...

- prior right of occupation? dunno about you, i'm human. we've been on the planet for 10, 000 years or more. i have a lawful claim to 1/6 billionth of the planet.

See - that's where our worldviews separate. I am a part of this whenua ... this whenua feeds me, clothes me, provides me with shelter and water. Papatuanuku is here, in this motu. This is my link to here - the whenua - the placenta which is life ... the whenua - the land of which we are a part ... when I was born the whenua/placenta which linked me to my mother went back to the whenua - the land. WHen I die my tinana/body returns to Papatuanuku. My tinana, which was created from Papatuanku, returns to her ... my wairua and hinengakau move on ...

you're thinking small man. way too small. i am citizen earth.

You may be a citizen of the earth - I am a descendent of Rangi and Papa, of Tane, of Hine Titama, who became Hinenui Te Po ... I am a descendent of this whenua ...

- "the agreement of our elected representatives" - i did not agree to anyone to represent me, i'm capable of representing myself. i also never voted for anyone to make decisions/"represent" for me. thus i retain the right to do so myself.

By not voting you are giving up any power you have to influence decisions that affect you directly .. is this a good thing?

- again, would you prefer i drive a tank accross private land everywhere, or use a light vehicle on the roads?

if the roads are "public" ie, for EVERYONE, why should i not use them?

you could try driving across "private land" (as an anarchist I abhor the concept of "private land" ) but see how the land owners react ...

But mainly you should not use public roads which are for "everyone" because you claim you are not part of "everyone" ..

does that mean that people on holiday in the country can't use the roads, not being NZ citizens and thus contributing a lifetime of tax for them?

Yeah .. Naaa bro .. they are visitors - we treat manuhiri well in this country - and they bring money into our economy - we've been grabbing tourist dollars since Capt Cook came back and we sold him food ...

- again with the delusion/fictions. you're propping up more of them than me, and thus, from where i'm wanking, err... sitting, it's you that's deluded.

I agree that we disagree - I'm not deluded - I understand everything you say - I once thought very close to you - it was a long time ago .. then I changed - not because I accepted the hegemonic bullshit of a corrupt system - I accepted the practical realities of my life ..

And I also accepted that while it is satisfiying to be apart from a society which I thought at the tiem was a crock of shit - that pathway does not lead to change and improvement. My goal is to improvfe life for all human beings - and that is not possible from outside the system, where I was only throwing stones at glass houses, as it where. Now I am inside the house I can act more effectively for social change - we need the radicals outside, but we also need the agents inside ... (see below - your further comments and mine)

Too long a post - split in half ..

Banditbandit

2nd November 2012, 09:42

- "go somewhere else" i love this one.

I don't seriously expect you to go somewhere else - I was attempting, in a somewhat subtle and experiential learning way, to suggest that it does not matter where you go in the world today, there is always some system, souime country, some lasws, which will be applied to you ...

unfortunately you bite your own ass. you accept that NZ is a rightful distinction, you accept that the government has authority to make decisions for the "represented", you accept that you are part of the society, but you break the rules (but "keep your head down") - if you don't like the rules, why don't you go somewhere else?

The Government has authority becase the citizens of New Zealand choose to grant them that autrhority ... I don';t necessarily accept that as a philosophical or political position - I only accept the practicalities of it .. adn I count deviants as part of society - nto as a separate part .. they are deviants not exiles ...

- rights are a legal fiction.
really? you want to revise that at all before i get into it??

Go ahead bro ... "rights" are a fiction .. as Scumdog says .. ask a starving African child just how his rights are today .. the whole of human history shows that people only have what they are prepared to fight and die for ... even the authors and supporters of the US Declaration of Independence had to fight and die for the "rights" they declared ... and the autrhors did nopt consider black people had rights ... or women for that matter ..

so as a man who is born, (assuming you had your ideal society with no governance (that's anarchy, eh?)) you mean to tell me you have no rights? that i can do whatever i want to you?

Yes - you can try - I can defend myself ... don't go bleating to the system ... it's either/or ... And I am not talking "right to defend myself" I am talking armed and capable .. (And no, anarchy is not "no governance ...")

a "person" is a legal fiction, and, legally, has the capacity for "rights and duties"

See - a person is a legal fiction - agreed .. therefore you have to agree any rights and duties are also legal fictions ..

a man, born under the creator, i would argue, has full rights, second only to the creator. noone can infringe against those rights except by force.

Naaa bro .. No creator ...

- "democracy is the best system" democracy is organised mob rule. technically 51% of the population can beat down 49%.
unfortunately we do not even have the blessing of true democracy, (nor anywhere in the world.)

Only an authoritarian democracy (elected dictatorship) takes that form. A deliberative democracy can take that form, but a radical plural democracy would never take that form ..

your argument falls short for lack of anything to base it on.

Huh ???

- you work towards a greater personal freedom (me too)

But it appears you see that as an individual thing .. whuile I work for the greater freedom of all ...

- "there wil always be that work as total personal freedom, with the current political, social and psychological state of human beings."

yes, but why should the way it is affect the way it should be? i would submit that you're not free at all.

To a certain extent you are right ... I could throw the old hippie line at you "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" .. but that's not a total answer ... I have accepted the loss of some freedom to be involved in changing the system - and I have accepted the loss of some small freedom as a requirermwent of avoiding the consequences of my rebel and deviant actions ..

i've seen the argument "you have to be involved in the system to change it" i don't buy it. on account of it hasn't fucken changed.

Mate - it has changed heaps ... I grew up in the 50s and 60s .. and the changes are radical - too long to list ... There used to be separate pay trates in national awards for Māori workers - that has gone. Our reo is now an acknowledged language of our whenua ... women have gained many advances ... We no longer have a Prime Minsiter controlling the contry by regulation without even consulting cabinet ...

I agree that change friom within is a slower process than armed revolution - but it does happen - and it does not require the violence of armed revolution (which I support in the right piolitcial and historic circumstances.)

- you have a vote? whoop dee fuck, how well has that worked out for your personal freedom?

BNo impact really - the only thing is that each election year I first decide whether I'm goign to vote or not, and then I rmemebr how many opeopel died to give peopel thje vote .. so I do .. but then I have to decide which of the corrupt bunch I'm goigj to vote for ...

- - you think i am wrong, i think you are wrong. maybe if you read what i've read you'd change your mind, maybe vicey versey. we are both working toward similar goals, but i think you're being held back by the fictions you've created around yourself, (for whatever reason).

you're held down by the small thinking of "i am NZ" "i am anarchist" boundaries and borders and definitions - ALL FICTIONS.

Whatever ... I used to think like you do ... maybe one day you will think like I do now ...

And read the tag line - I'm not only an anarchist - I'm anarchic with it ...

you're deluded if you think voting does any more than encourage the criminality at the top. you're twice deluded if you think those at the top aren't criminals.

Yeah ... we (a group of crazied anarchists) once ran an election year slogan "Don't vote - Only Politicians Win " ... it was in shakey city back in the 1970s ...

Banditbandit

2nd November 2012, 09:46

and since i'm still awake.
being "in NZ" doesn't mean i'm NZ society. that's like saying i'm fruit because i'm in a fruit shop.
just because you are within the claimed bounds of somewhere, doesn't mean you're it.

Bwhahaha .. yes ..but if I said (hypothertically because you don't) you're fruit because you ride a Honda .. mosy people here would agree with me .. (except the Honda riders)

Banditbandit

2nd November 2012, 09:48

I have empathy for many things, but I can never be a *normal* as your stipulated prerequisite for rights demands.
Check my human and animal rights efforts
I may have more empathy than you...
'Autistics dont have empathy' is some of the BS out there, many have too much
But no, I cant relate to normals very well at all

hat's OK .. even some of us non-neourotypicals have problems relating to your persona as well.

Banditbandit

2nd November 2012, 09:52

(ps, i don't actually "deal" marajuana. just grow, smoke and share it, there's not often money involved)

Hmmm ... been there, done that - it does tend to diminish the credibility of your arguments.

Genestho

2nd November 2012, 10:09

Snip

i'm explaining myself for the benefit of the daft. i'm not seeking approval, (fuck knows i don't get much 'round here) i may inspire or intrigue someone, to think about some shit, and reconsider their previously sheepily fixed views of the system that's going to rob them of the best years of their lives then pay them a pittance to die. (if you're lucky)

By that statement - you're making assumptions of strangers you don't know, furthermore a society of strangers. Fair enough - many have been there as moody teenagers, some stay there.

You have no idea how people have lived their lives nor how they got to "here" what games of chess have been played, what risks have been taken, nor what sacrifices have been made, by people that live by their own rules.
You still don't have that explanation for why you're on the interwebs but yet trying to get off the grid. I'm still laughing!

Sorry, but this is hardly "inspiring", dude.

SMOKEU

2nd November 2012, 10:17

Admitting that you grow buds on a public forum is not a sensible idea.

mashman

2nd November 2012, 10:19

You still don't have that explanation for why you're on the interwebs but yet trying to get off the grid. I'm still laughing!

Sorry, but this is hardly "inspiring", dude.

In this day and age I thought we'd moved past viewing being off grid as having to live like Barb and Tom. It would seem not, how 70's of you all... moreover it makes you a hypocrite. I'm laughing too, but not for the same reasons as yourself.

I dunno, I find it completely acceptable... maybe not inspiring, but definitely acceptable.

GTRMAN

2nd November 2012, 10:19

To say "I am not part of your society, I reject your law's' is fairly easy when hidden behind the anonymity of an internet pseudonym. Akzle do you have the courage of your convictions? You openly admit to many things our, or in your opinion, MY society, deems illegal. If you truly believe what you say in your green diatribes then post your real name and see what happens.

Put up, or shut up

HenryDorsetCase

2nd November 2012, 10:20

Mr Akzle needs to do some reading.

In the meantime, because he is "outside of society" doubtless he will appreciate Patti Smith:

DLIkM4wvcC8

You want transgressive? You want honest? try using the word "nigger" in the title of a rock song on your second album released 1978.

But I dont know anything about your musical taste Mr Akzle. Hopefully it is more developed than your political discourse. Thank you also for your comment about me not being a "real lawyer". Leaving aside the ad hominem part of that (to which, you might have noticed, I have unsubtly responded above), I have referred your concerns to the New Zealand Law Society, and told them that you dont think I am a real lawyer and accordingly I have asked for a refund of my practising certificate fees. I have also contacted my insurers for a PI premium refund, and advised my staff. So thanks for pointing it out.

twat.

schrodingers cat

2nd November 2012, 11:05

Admitting that you grow buds on a public forum is not a sensible idea.

Mr A will just tell the popo he's not part of their society. They'll nod sagely and walk away.

No rules man!

Maha

2nd November 2012, 11:33

Bi it is then... No worries though, so am I.

I would have been too, but Drew went all 'One Direction' on me...:(

007XX

2nd November 2012, 11:46

I would have been too, but Drew went 'One Direction' on me...:(

Oh I wouldn't be so sure about that love... Hate to break it to you, but I think he was just trying to let you down easy there

007XX

2nd November 2012, 12:12

hey, i'm in town. i can "intrigue" you all night long if ya want... :D :buggerd:
(but i'm intimidated by your bike, so be gentle with me)

Ha... that's cute, but hardly appealing at all. I outgrew the "bad boy" stage a long time ago.

[/QUOTE]1- mocking the mockers. there's no such thing as foreigners. that's a fiction. [/QUOTE]

Better.
[/QUOTE]
2- i interact with police on a semi-regular basis, and always rock my plenipotentiary adjudicunt shit. works outright about 50% of the time.
and if you hit up some youtube videos you'll see that "sovereign men" do fairly well in open court. we don't play in the crown courts, because they're fucked up. (conflict of interest, unlawful, i'm not part of the "law society" either, etc)
we convene courts de jure, generally under common law rights. very few judges want to go on record saying they deny you your common law rights.

(ps, i don't actually "deal" marajuana. just grow, smoke and share it, there's not often money involved) [/QUOTE]

You redeemed yourself with the no dealing. However, the first part of that paragraph demonstrate why you are dangerous to the rest of people around you. You justify your actions based on your "right" to not fit in with the rest of society. What if your actions are harmful to the rest of us? Is it still acceptable for you to carry them out?
Believe it or not, I happen to have a few "sovereign men and women" as friends. But extremists with their own set of rules always end up being nefast to the likes who prefer to live within a society making compromises.

a nation is ideally made up of like minded individuals who strive to live together . Whether the system is optimum for this to happen or not, we all have to live together and agree upon common rules to avoid chaos and get along (Thou shalt not steal, etc)

Do you get where I'm going with this? I'm not doubting you do cos I certainly don't think you're stupid. Maybe just a little obstinate.[/QUOTE]
3- you're right. ish. but again, if i were elsewhere, the middle east say, i'd be packing an AK47 and voicing my opinion in some kind of street rioting type behaviour, executing politicians. asides from "i aint got enough money or a big enough boat to go anywhere else",
i do enjoy the relative freedom of these islands. the means to argue by my mind rather than my gun cabinet.
[/QUOTE]

Once again, with that approach, how are you part of the solution rather than of the problem?
In these countries, it has been well proven that the supply in sick fucktards as head of states is plentiful. Like the Chimera, you cut one head and two will sprout out just as vicious as the previous one.

And arguing is pointless, however having a healthy debate is something the creators of the concept of democracy enjoyed tremenduously. Whether you like it or not, being in a society that gives you the right to speak your mind and defend your opinion is a privilege and it should be appreciated as such.

It is a privilege worth fighting for, and something I think you might be taking for granted.

HenryDorsetCase

2nd November 2012, 12:42

I think the thing that irks me about Mr Akzle's position can be boiled down to this:

Mr Akzle's position (as I understand it) is "I am not part of New Zealand society: your rules do not apply to me, your laws and customs and government and all that other garbage are fiction. I am apart from the rest of you."

So, at first blush, that seems like at least an arguable position: participation is voluntary, this is a democracy, and I am a free person and I can do what I want.

And to quote Mr Shakespeare "Aye, but there's the rub": In making that pronouncement, then doing nothing further, the contradiction is revealed. Because by engaging with it, you are participating in it, while saying you are not part of it.

It seems to me to be the classical case of cognitive dissonance: this is a psychological condtion wherein people hold two muaually exclusive or contradictory beliefs, and yet profess both to be true. Basically a demonstration that if sincere, Mr Akzle is mentally ill. My view is that Mr Akzle appreciates the intellectual dishonesty of his position, but chooses not to engage with it.

Shirley, if Mr Akzle was sincere in his belief about a "society of one" for want of a better description, then disengaging entirely would be the intellectually honest approach. Find some land somewhere, and using nothing other than own hands, mind and labour, build, trade, and defend your own "patch". And you can't do it in the fictional New Zealand, because, mate, we're already here, and we claim it. And between us, we own more guns than you. "Us" of course in this context meaning the rest of New Zealand at large.

In fact, not even the most deluded of the Maori separatists are advancing a position akin to yours, Mr Akzle, and they arguably would have stronger claim to advancing it than anyone else, should they choose to. Of course they'd still be wrong, just not as wrong as you.

Also: sushi for lunch. Superb.

oneofsix

2nd November 2012, 12:50

<snip>
Shirley, if Mr Akzle was sincere in his belief about a "society of one" for want of a better description, then disengaging entirely would be the intellectually honest approach. Find some land somewhere, and using nothing other than own hands, mind and labour, build, trade, and defend your own "patch". <snip>.

trade? If he is to trade he requires others to trade with and that makes a society of sorts.

Hope you enjoyed your mercury lunch :bleh:

007XX

2nd November 2012, 13:05

I just want to know who Shirley is :chase:

oneofsix

2nd November 2012, 13:08

I just want to know who Shirley is :chase:

worried she might be competition? :girlfight:

:corn:

HenryDorsetCase

2nd November 2012, 13:12

trade? If he is to trade he requires others to trade with and that makes a society of sorts.

Hope you enjoyed your mercury lunch :bleh:

mmmmm mercury.

I was sort of thinking of the classical era city state. That is Island Akzle trades with other societies (mainland NZ for example). But I do think your point is well made: to engage at all implies social interaction which is a characteristic of "society".

He's in for a lonely old time on his island, huh? Or as Hobbes would have it: "Nasty, poor, brutish and short"

In fact I would recommend that Mr Akzle read at least Hobbes "Leviathan" and some Tom Paine, a bit of Marx and some Bakunin, maybe a bit of the classics etc. I dont think I have the PHIL101 reading list or course notes but I know someone who teaches it. Sing out and I can try and get a copy.

Then we can all get a good grounding in the area, and deal with the fact that people have been thinking about, and writing about, this shit for 4000 years. In fact probably for as long as people have been thinking, and writing.

Then we'll talk. Oh yes. It'll be like the US Constitutional Congress (but with less hookers and whiskey)

HenryDorsetCase

2nd November 2012, 13:14

worried she might be competition? :girlfight:

:corn:

I am serious. And don't call me Shirley.

0A5t5_O8hdA

007XX

2nd November 2012, 13:15

worried she might be competition? :girlfight:

:corn:

Bahahaha... So barking up the wrong tree there, but so amusing nonetheless.

oneofsix

2nd November 2012, 13:15

. It'll be like the US Constitutional Congress (but with less hookers and whiskey)

will that ruined that idea, no whiskey?! :nono::(

007XX

2nd November 2012, 13:21

I am serious. And don't call me Shirley ]

That time of the month, is it love? :bleh:

Big Dave

2nd November 2012, 13:26

And don't call me Shirley.

to me you always look like Henry Rollins.

oneofsix

2nd November 2012, 13:27

Bahahaha... So barking up the wrong tree there, but so amusing nonetheless.
If it hadn't have been the wrong tree it wouldn't be amusing :msn-wink:

That time of the month, is it love? :bleh:
It would be the mercury he had for lunch :drool:

Akzle

2nd November 2012, 13:35

Hmmm ... been there, done that - it does tend to diminish the credibility of your arguments.
you're going to throw arguments out based on the fact that the guy putting them forward smokes dope?
what if i had a prescription for.. i don't know, tramadol, and was making the same arguments?

I don't seriously expect you to go somewhere else - I was attempting, in a somewhat subtle and experiential learning way, to suggest that it does not matter where you go in the world today, there is always some system, souime country, some lasws, which will be applied to you ...

and you're probably not wrong. but i'm not going to voluntarily apply them to myself. given that the basis of (democratic) governance is (perceived) consent and representation, and in the case of my person, both are missing.

we do all, however, come under the jurisdiction of a higher authority.

The Government has authority becase the citizens of New Zealand choose to grant them that autrhority ... I don';t necessarily accept that as a philosophical or political position - I only accept the practicalities of it .. adn I count deviants as part of society - nto as a separate part .. they are deviants not exiles ...

1) i don't claim the title "citizen", nor do i grant anyone, let alone the government, authority over myself.
2) while this may be "practically" the case, that doesn't mean it's as it should be, also, i do not find it to be the case, i do what the hell i want, irrespective of what government is governing.
3) as for calling "deviants" part of society.. i'd differentiate. the guy saying "fuck the pigs" is a deviant within society. the guy (me) saying "crown policy enforcement has no lawful jurisdiction over me", not so much, eh

"rights" are a fiction...ask a starving African child just how his rights are today .. the whole of human history shows that people only have what they are prepared to fight and die for ...

an african kid has the same birth rights as anyone else. for a start, the right to life, liberty, possession, freedom of association, freedom of movement. just because they may not be in a socio-political/demographic to make full advantage of those rights, doesn't mean they aren't there.

And I am not talking "right to defend myself" I am talking armed and capable .. (And no, anarchy is not "no governance ...")

1) you seem to be repeatedly chest thumping on this one. you've got guns (me too) who have you shot for the rights you claim? (shall we have a paintball match to see who would live through the meeting?)
2)
Main Entry: an·ar·chy
Pronunciation: \ˈa-nər-kē, -ˌnär-\
Function: noun
1 a : absence of government b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government
i'm guessing C is what you're going for?, it comes after a and b.
or do you have a definition to add?

you have to agree any rights and duties are also legal fictions ..

duties, yes. rights, no. as above, life liberty etc. i would put forward, though, you also have a natural duty not to infringe on anyone elses rights.

Naaa bro .. No creator ...

fundamental difference, but i think you contradict yourself (below)
...but a radical plural democracy would never take that form ..

and we don't have it

Huh ???

and becaue we don't have it, you can't say it's good, or it works, as you can't point to a working example.

But it appears you see that as an individual thing .. whuile I work for the greater freedom of all ...

i give people the knowledge to free themselves, maybe the ideal, i don't see it as my duty to fight the good fight for people who may or may not want it.

To a certain extent you are right ... I could throw the old hippie line at you "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"

hippy? that was joplin...

I have accepted the loss of some freedom to be involved in changing the system - and I have accepted the loss of some small freedom as a requirermwent of avoiding the consequences of my rebel and deviant actions ..

that's your choice, as a free-thinking adult.

Mate - it has changed heaps ... I grew up in the 50s and 60s .. and the changes are radical - too long to list ...

(pass)

I agree that change friom within is a slower process than armed revolution - but it does happen - and it does not require the violence of armed revolution (which I support in the right piolitcial and historic circumstances.)

you can't support something in an historical context. it either happened or it did not, if you agree with it, bully for you, if you don't, bully for you. (what's done is done, what's not been done 's not been done, let it be...)

so, do you think you're going to achieve your ideal of anarchism, from within the system you're wanting to be rid of?

each election year I first decide whether I'm goign to vote or not, and then I rmemebr how many opeopel died to give peopel thje vote ..

some kind of duty there huh?
and i'm guessing you're playing the darkie card too. that's fine, that's whats made you you and if you think that's whats best, i'm not going to convince you otherwise...

- but spelling is just one of those rule things y'know ...

you rebel you, speeling engrish badly.

I'm arguing from functional occurence with practical references points. ...we are not talking about the legal fictionof a country...

no, but the territory is a fiction. it may be an island (or five or six, however many NZ territory is (tokelau, niue etc)), it's claimed political territory. it's a border/ boundary.

Goals? I am unsure where that comes from - I never thought we had "common goals" ...

that's of the legal definition of society. unless you've got a better one.. it'll stand. i don't think that what most people point to as "society", does have common goals.

Yes .. and some of us have been pissed off at that for 200 years - So - are you one of the immigrants? Ngā mihi ki a koe ...

couldn't rightly say. pretty sure i'm from earth (some might snigger) you personally haven't been alive 200 years, so you're claiming the fued of your fathers....

Oh? It would seem that it is clearly defined by our coast line ... i
and it was first legally defined (Yes, I accept theat it is legally defined accurding to your rules) by us, the tangata whenua in 1835 in the Declaration of Independence,

not my rules. new zealand legislation. crown law. and, strictly speaking, it's defined as the territorial waters of NZ, not the land. did the 1835 declaration (it got royal assent, did it not?) specify niue? the chathams? raoul? or just a couple of big bits of rock pulled up by rangi with his granny's jaw?

"This is Ours" it is not a fiction in ours - but it is real, we stand on it, it has been handed down from mai rāno ...

yeah. i say that about the whole rock (earth)

There is not higher power or creator in my worldview.
what privileges human beings over other life forms in the natural world?

from whence came you? is your consciousness merely a physiological product of mum and dad having a shag?

priviledges over... i wouldn't pick those words.
i claim the right to kill and eat shit, be it plant or animal (and i don't differentiate, they're both alive, and i kill them to eat them) asides from that, i am part of an ecosystem, come what may.

Good luck on the Gixxer with no rego ... you will eventually run into the enforcement agencies .. (unless you have it on display in the stting room) ... then you will see just how much you are not part of the system ...

have and do. (there is no R, just GSX) it's not always easy. cops aren't actually taught law. they're taught to write tickets. sometimes my winning smile does it, sometimes i have to argue the tickets elsewise. refusing to "identify myself" leads to detainment by dickhead cops, boring and unprofitable for me.

Good luck with that ... I've come pretty close in the past ... still got stuck with paying rates - but I could have lived off my land .. food, water and energy were all avaliable ...

well, you accept the system. you accept that the crowns claim to alloidal title (bullshit on the "daddy gave me this land", what good are those guns of yours eh?) and can thus charge you for the occupation of it.

the reality is that we are surrounded by law makers and law enforces .. so to avoid the unwanted consequences of my actions I fly under the radar ... it is more freeing to avoid being involved in the court processes than to take them on head on ... it's avoidance rather than acquiescence.

i think you misunderstand acquiescence. that implies lying down and taking it. yes, it's basically headbutting a wall, fighting a well financed and precedented system, however unjust and corrupt. and i have no objection to KYFHD (keep yr f*ing head down)
this is the difference though, you accept that the system will persist, so you give up and work with it, i reckon we would see some change if everyone started interacting with cops and government as i do, and i think that's the only way we'll see change.

I am a part of this whenua ... this whenua feeds me, clothes me, provides me with shelter and water. Papatuanuku is here, in this motu....

so you accept a creator. you accept a system larger than yourself, that your consciousness is part of a bigger system (and separate from your body) you accept that what you need to live, you'll have, by the grace of "god" (why the mother and not the father?)

You may be a citizen of the earth - I am a descendent of Rangi and Papa, of Tane, of Hine Titama, who became Hinenui Te Po ... I am a descendent of this whenua ...

((oh, there's dad)) aren't we all?

By not voting you are giving up any power you have to influence decisions that affect you directly .. is this a good thing?

do i? i don't think there's anyone in parliament or likely to get there that's going to bring about the things i want to see.

you could try driving across "private land" (as an anarchist I abhor the concept of "private land" ) but see how the land owners react ...

i'm with you on the private/ownership bit., better i use the roads eh?

But mainly you should not use public roads which are for "everyone" because you claim you are not part of "everyone" ..

i am part of "everyone" just not "society"

Yeah .. Naaa bro .. they are visitors

i don't draw that fiction ("visitor"). they are earthlings. they have the same right to their 6billionth as me and mine.

I once thought very close to you - it was a long time ago .. then I changed - not because I accepted the hegemonic bullshit of a corrupt system - I accepted the practical realities of my life .. that pathway does not lead to change and improvement.

that is your choice, your path. i'll keep to mine, it's working for me so far.

My goal is to improvfe life for all human beings - and that is not possible from outside the system, where I was only throwing stones at glass houses, as it where.

i disagree. i think outside, where the real people, not the corporate persons, not the "society"s, not the legal bullshit are, is where the system needs to be attacked from.

we need the radicals outside, but we also need the agents inside

game on!

Banditbandit

2nd November 2012, 14:27

Whew ... that's getting way long .. some highlights

you're going to throw arguments out based on the fact that the guy putting them forward smokes dope?
what if i had a prescription for.. i don't know, tramadol, and was making the same arguments?

Yes !!! Chemical change in the brain affects judgement etc etc and theefore the credibility of any argument - no distinction between Government-declared illicit chemicals and legitmated prescribed chemicals ..

the right to life, liberty, possession, freedom of association, freedom of movement.

None of these things have been granted as a right - they have al been fought for . and after the fight have been deemed to be rights. That deeming to be rights does not make them rights ... that's bullshit words on paper ... only the desire to fight for them makes them enforcable ... and the ability to make that happen (i.e. apply force) is where the guns come in ...

Main Entry: an·ar·chy
Pronunciation: \ˈa-nər-kē, -ˌnär-\
Function: noun
1 a : absence of government b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government
i'm guessing C is what you're going for?, it comes after a and b.
or do you have a definition to add?

Naaa .. none fo those definitions .. Read Rocker, Proudhon, Malatesta ...

Anarchy is the political system formed by 100% agreement of all those involved - and MAY involve some for of structure - btr only with the agreementof 100% opf the people involved - Anarchy is much like Marxism .. execpt we disagree with the marxist position of historical materialism ... Marx's problem is with Capitalism ..adn he said that you smash the captalist state, establish a social state, which becomes a communist state which will eventually fade away and leavge the dictatorship of the proletariat (don't get hung up on the name ...) Anarchists do have a problem with the Caouitalist state, but the bigger problem is ith the state which will necesarily become an elite-ukled body - so at the moment of revolution whjy set up a socialist state? WOr a comunist state - they ahve all becoem elite heirachies .. adn will never fade away

At the moment of revolution you can move directly to forming the dictatorship of the proletariat (don't get hung up on the name - read Marx's description) ..

No, we do not have a raqdical plural democracy - I hope we are movign toward that .. It's a goal ... an aspirational goal .. simply saying we do not have it means it wil never happen - and the status quo wil remain ...

hippy? that was joplin...

It was actually Kris Kristofferson ..

so you're claiming the fued of your fathers....

Yes - maybe - in your terms ... in my worldview no, I am not .. "We" is all of the iwi - past present and future .. which in our worldview is different - the past is before us ... our words for the past = Mai Rāno - the days come again .. Ngā ra o mua - the days in front ... We have a different sense of time and a different sense of belong and a different sense of "us" from the immigrant populations ..

so you accept a creator.

No. I said descended from ... not created by ...

saying "crown policy enforcement has no lawful jurisdiction over me",

Yeah - some deviants are a little more "outside" but only a little more on the fringe - never completely outside ..

But I agree with yor statement. It is my position - the law has no authority over me - I choose the appear to obey the law because I'm dodging consequences ... the quieter option ...

Happy for you to bang your head against the wall for us .. I prefer to not have a headache ... and I can play the sane voice inside the system saying "deal with me or I'll get that mad headbanger back ..."

you can't support something in an historical context. it either happened or it did not

Naa bro - I mean that in the Marxist sense of Historical Materialsim ... and the historic moment of any society as it is occuring .. not history as in the past ...

And as for the spellign - it's a non-neorutypical thing ...

Hey - good discussion - bit of fun .. I'm off for the weekend ... Going fishing tomorrow ...

have a good one and take care ..

Akzle

2nd November 2012, 14:59

You have no idea how people have lived their lives nor how they got to "here" what games of chess have been played, what risks have been taken, nor what sacrifices have been made, by people that live by their own rules.
You still don't have that explanation for why you're on the interwebs but yet trying to get off the grid. I'm still laughing!

Sorry, but this is hardly "inspiring", dude.
well, i can't force you to be inspired, if you'd rather pick holes, go right ahead. simply because i don't agree with someones belief doesn't mean i cannot engage with them to our mutual benefit. i'm off the power grid, the supermarket grid, the taxman grid etc. i missed the sign that said internet wasn't allowed.

Admitting that you grow buds on a public forum is not a sensible idea.
the local cops know who i am, where i am and what i do. if they see me doing dumb shit on the road, they're usually waiting in my driveway when i get home.

To say "I am not part of your society, I reject your law's' is fairly easy when hidden behind the anonymity of an internet pseudonym. Akzle do you have the courage of your convictions? You openly admit to many things our, or in your opinion, MY society, deems illegal. If you truly believe what you say in your green diatribes then post your real name and see what happens.

Put up, or shut up been there done that bro. go fish. see the phone number down the bottom? give me a call...
(ps. i am legitimately known as akzle, too.)

Mr A will just tell the popo he's not part of their society. They'll nod sagely and walk away.

No rules man!
pretty much. but sometimes they're a bit more obtuse than that.

]You redeemed yourself with the no dealing.

i don't see what it matters. there's a demand in the free market (amongst otherwise "law abiding" citizens), i can fill it.
which is the lesser weevil? me, or the mongrel mob?

you are dangerous to the rest of people around you. You justify your actions based on your "right" to not fit in with the rest of society. What if your actions are harmful to the rest of us? Is it still acceptable for you to carry them out?

i dont do it. simple. i take responsibility for what i do, what i don't do. the guiding principals of common law free-e-dom: do no harm to others, do no harm to property, and honour your contracts. they're basically my starting point in the morning.

a nation is ideally made up of like minded individuals who strive to live together . Whether the system is optimum for this to happen or not, we all have to live together and agree upon common rules to avoid chaos and get along (Thou shalt not steal, etc)

exactly. but pray, what about the 11 thousand bits of "legislation" that go beyond? : do no harm to person, property and tell the truth", what more "rules" do ya need? every faith has rules in a similar vein, the pillars of islam, the vedic doctrine, the ten commandments, all specify what's fundamentally "right" - asides from it being inscribed on our DNA, and asides from the fact that if you have to infringe upon someone elses natural rights, you're probably in the wrong.

Do you get where I'm going with this? I'm not doubting you do cos I certainly don't think you're stupid. Maybe just a little obstinate.[/COLOR]

i don't really get where you're going. your beliefs and worldview are based on the journey that's bought you here. i don't know what it is, i probably disagree with most of it, but if you're happy then i'm happy. i don't expect you'll drop everything and go live in a bush hut, but that's my path. i also don't buy into "society's" way of shelving responsibility, blaming someone/thing else and i believe that humans have the fundamental capacity to be good, but the socio-political environment they've been raised by has led them off the good path.

i am obstinate.

Once again, with that approach, how are you part of the solution rather than of the problem?
In these countries, it has been well proven that the supply in sick fucktards as head of states is plentiful. Like the Chimera, you cut one head and two will sprout out just as vicious as the previous one.

i'd say so. the PEOPLE vote with rifles, rather than ballots, the politicians are held to account. (fuckup = get shot, what?! you can't recall selling out?! = get shot.) most of the "sick fucktards" were put in place as puppet governments by "higher" governments - mainly the US for monetary gain.

It is a privilege worth fighting for, and something I think you might be taking for granted.

privilege? i need to be granted the privilege to say and think what i want?
who do i have to beg for that? do i get a "free thought license"? do i need to register for it?

holy broken HTML, batman!

I think the thing that irks me about Mr Akzle's position can be boiled down to this:

Mr Akzle's position (as I understand it) is "I am not part of New Zealand society: your rules do not apply to me, your laws and customs and government and all that other garbage are fiction. I am apart from the rest of you."

So, at first blush, that seems like at least an arguable position: participation is voluntary, this is a democracy, and I am a free person and I can do what I want.

good so far....

Because by engaging with it, you are participating in it, while saying you are not part of it.

i disagree. again with the fruit shop analogy. engaging does not imply subjugation, or consent to the ideals of the fruit seller, or the fruits, for that matter.

It seems to me to be the classical case of cognitive dissonance: this is a psychological condtion...Mr Akzle is mentally ill. My view is that Mr Akzle appreciates the intellectual dishonesty of his position, but chooses not to engage with it.

and my view is that you're well and truly deluded. it may ease your mind to dismiss me under the flag of "mental disorder", hell, you might be right, throw some narcissism, solipsism, and a superiority complex in there, and we've got the Akzle cocktail, unfortunately it doens't reduce the inherent validity of anything i say.

Shirley, if Mr Akzle was sincere in his belief about a "society of one" for want of a better description, then disengaging entirely would be the intellectually honest approach.

a) i'm not after a "society of one"
b) even if i was, why is that concept mutually exclusive with engaging other society? that's like saying because NZs minimum wage is 12$ we can't engage with china who don't have labour laws.
hum?

Find some land somewhere, and using nothing other than own hands, mind and labour, build, trade, and defend your own "patch". And you can't do it in the fictional New Zealand, because, mate, we're already here, and we claim it. And between us, we own more guns than you. "Us" of course in this context meaning the rest of New Zealand at large.

yes but the rest of NZ doesn't have as tripped up view as you. i don't accept your claim to it. i don't accept it's lawful. you insist you're a lawful, democratic, representative government, so prove your claim is lawful...
and why should i not make use of tools, exactly?

In fact, not even the most deluded of the Maori separatists are advancing a position akin to yours, Mr Akzle, and they arguably would have stronger claim to advancing it than anyone else, should they choose to. Of course they'd still be wrong, just not as wrong as you.

uhh.. you don't follow the news much. heard of this place called "uruwera"?

Also: sushi for lunch. Superb.

i do enjoy sushi. salmon. nomnom.

That is Island Akzle trades with other societies (mainland NZ for example). But I do think your point is well made: to engage at all implies social interaction which is a characteristic of "society".

so. my ass is white and perfectly round, so are rockmelons, therefore because my arse has the characteristics of "rock melons", it must be a rock melon?

how the hell did you survive law school?

Then we can all get a good grounding in the area, and deal with the fact that people have been thinking about, and writing about, this shit for 4000 years. In fact probably for as long as people have been thinking, and writing.

why are you looking back for a solution? shouldn't you be a bit more forward thinking?
you're not even looking for a solution, really, because the status quo is so profitable for you.
so if people have genuinely been looking to this kind of shit for that long, how is it that nothing has changed?

Then we'll talk. Oh yes. It'll be like the US Constitutional Congress (but with less hookers and whiskey)

i retain the right to hookers and whiskey.

Akzle

2nd November 2012, 15:02

-edit- f*ckf*ckf*ck

007XX

2nd November 2012, 15:20

-edit- f*ckf*ckf*ck

I think I shall just agree to disagree with you on a few points. Besides, you'd be surprised how much of what you say I agree with, on principal.

I just don't believe that you can be outside of society while living amongst it.

PS: Enjoyed that reference to Master and Commander too by the way.

scumdog

2nd November 2012, 16:35

// the reason you have 12000 posts, scum puppy, is that you can't seem to fucken multiquote. you take 4 posts to say what most people would in one, and all of it is shit.

gtfo my thread.[/COLOR]

Touchy little fucker, ain't ya!:lol:

And multiquotes are so over-rated plus a lot of the time it's off-putting reading posts with too many included in them, but I guess you know all about THAT eh!:rolleyes::bleh:

mashman

2nd November 2012, 17:36

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/sheeple.png

98tls

2nd November 2012, 19:07

Dear oh fucking dear,meant to tune in yesterday but forgot all about(thank fuck).No doubt Akzle welcomed the internet with open arms,you must have got well bored with getting a smack in the mouth before it came along eh.

Edbear

2nd November 2012, 19:46

It used to be, then it went a tad dismal.

However, it would seem things are on the up.

Still some pathetic little children hanging around, though. They're easy to ignore though as they won't reveal themselves by posting in any serious discussion these days.

Would be nice to get some of the originals back posting again.

I'm trying to understand where Axzle is coming from, but he's a slippery blighter, I think he's mainly a troll for his own amusement.

mashman

2nd November 2012, 20:05

Still some pathetic little children hanging around, though. They're easy to ignore though as they won't reveal themselves by posting in any serious discussion these days.

Would be nice to get some of the originals back posting again.

I'm trying to understand where Axzle is coming from, but he's a slippery blighter, I think he's mainly a troll for his own amusement.

KB, rough, smooth, dickheads... meh.

meh.

I'm going for concerned human being with an insight that most can't fathom because they don't have the imagination and/or forethought to think outwith that which they have been taught. The blue pill looks nice and tastes minty fresh too (and is generally accompanies with a tax break)

007XX

2nd November 2012, 20:29

Still some pathetic little children hanging around, though. They're easy to ignore though as they won't reveal themselves by posting in any serious discussion these days.

Would be nice to get some of the originals back posting again.

I'm trying to understand where Axzle is coming from, but he's a slippery blighter, I think he's mainly a troll for his own amusement.

Re: KB ...it is what it is. I've had a few giggles on here over the last couple of days, which is more than I can say for the last couple of years on here.

And re: Akzle. To be fair, a bad guy is often what makes this place fun. A common disliked troll I found just seems to drag everyone together and creates some heated and interesting debates. He ain't so bad ;)

scumdog

2nd November 2012, 20:34

And re: Akzle. To be fair, a bad guy is often what makes this place fun. A common disliked troll I found just seems to drag everyone together and creates some heated and interesting debates. He ain't so bad ;)

Ain't so good niether - but that's what makes him 'fun' in a perverted way.

Sorta like the village idiot use to be back in the days of horses, swords and ducking-stools..

Edbear

2nd November 2012, 20:49

Ain't so good niether - but that's what makes him 'fun' in a perverted way.

Sorta like the village idiot use to be back in the days of horses, swords and ducking-stools..

The old village idiot wouldn't use so many words though. Would make as much sense, just in fewer words...

007XX

2nd November 2012, 21:29

Ain't so good niether - but that's what makes him 'fun' in a perverted way.
.

Well, you know me and my sense of humour.

Akzle

3rd November 2012, 10:54

[IMG]
and xkcd for every occasion. i'd know, i stole most of them onto my hdd. never worked out that "click and drag" one, though.

I'm trying to understand where Axzle is coming from, but he's a slippery blighter, I think he's mainly a troll for his own amusement.
sometimes yes, mainly no. i generally live by and believe what i post....

...(and is generally accompanies with a tax break)
pretty much. you have the democratic right to choose whether they hit you with a big stick or a little one.

Akzle

3rd November 2012, 11:43

I think I shall just agree to disagree with you on a few points. Besides, you'd be surprised how much of what you say I agree with, on principal.

I just don't believe that you can be outside of society while living amongst it.

PS: Enjoyed that reference to Master and Commander too by the way.

the fricken series is about 23 books long. can't say i've read em all. good books, but.

i don't really "live amongst" society, i do interact with em.

Yes !!! Chemical change in the brain affects judgement etc
i disagree, also AFAIK, cannabis doesn't cause permanent changes in the brain, (i have and do take other drugs, so my brain is probably a bit goofed)
but, pop quiz, why do we have cannabanoid and opiate receptors in our bodies, if we're not meant to have a crack at it?

None of these things have been granted as a right - they have al been fought for . and after the fight have been deemed to be rights.

disagree. while they HAVE all been fought for, who've the battles been fought AGAINST? (the system), so being born free, in the absence of the system, one has those god-given rights. as said, noone can infringe against them without force.

((stop me if you've heard this one before...))

...Read Rocker, Proudhon, Malatesta ...

i'll give it a miss, and while i accept you're well read on various topics of governance, i don't think the solution is in the past, i don't know that any system has been ideal, i don't know there's anything to be learned from it, either.

-edit- i'll expand on that. in confining your thinking to what has been, you limit yourself straight away. if you START thinking with how it should be (not has been), and then make your theory/outlook around that, i reckon you'll get further.

Anarchy is the political system formed by 100% agreement of all those involved - and MAY involve some for of structure - btr only with the agreementof 100% opf the people involved

where does that definition come from? and you think it'll happen??!
do you think there is any person that would disagree with my principals? (do no harm, tell the truth) can that not be the basis? is that not a common (100%) ideal?

No, we do not have a raqdical plural democracy - I hope we are movign toward that

why? is that your compromise, accepting you will not achieve anarchy? or just the "best use" of a flawed system?

simply saying we do not have it means it wil never happen - and the status quo wil remain ...

the status quo will remain because the populi don't f*ing do anything about it, beyond pissing and moaning on internet forums. i fail to believe that anyone is actually happy working for a full third of their week for two thirds of their life. (of the other thirds: one third sleeping and the other third shared between "personal time" (TV, family, friends, gym, outings etc) and cleaning your possessions.)
so why is everyone doing it? - noones shown them a better way. they don't know any better. they've been conditioned from the first bell to ring on their first day of school. wear uniform, stand up when your name (that would be your capitus diminutio/legal fiction/ person's name) is called, line up, sit down, recite., you're only allowed the time between bells for yourself.

We have a different sense of time and a different sense of belong and a different sense of "us" from the immigrant populations ..

i'm not completely honky. i do know what you're on about. my sense of time is much larger again.

I'm off for the weekend ... Going fishing tomorrow ...

lucky bugger. my boat's missing a trailer (and the weather is shit anyway)

mashman

3rd November 2012, 12:07

pretty much. you have the democratic right to choose whether they hit you with a big stick or a little one.

I know where I'd like to shove that stick for all the good it would do anyone.

lucky bugger. my boat's missing a trailer (and the weather is shit anyway)

So leave it in the water then... or don't you have the money for the mooring fees :killingme

the status quo will remain because the populi don't f*ing do anything about it, beyond pissing and moaning on internet forums. i fail to believe that anyone is actually happy working for a full third of their week for two thirds of their life. (of the other thirds: one third sleeping and the other third shared between "personal time" (TV, family, friends, gym, outings etc) and cleaning your possessions.)
so why is everyone doing it? - noones shown them a better way. they don't know any better. they've been conditioned from the first bell to ring on their first day of school. wear uniform, stand up when your name (that would be your capitus diminutio/legal fiction/ person's name) is called, line up, sit down, recite., you're only allowed the time between bells for yourself.

Tis what makes a good citizen. Any other way would be chaos.

i'll expand on that. in confining your thinking to what has been, you limit yourself straight away. if you START thinking with how it should be (not has been), and then make your theory/outlook around that, i reckon you'll get further.

seconded, BIG TIME... and that attitude has never been needed more than today.

BoristheBiter

3rd November 2012, 15:56

i don't really "live amongst" society, i do interact with em.

lucky bugger. my boat's missing a trailer (and the weather is shit anyway)

What you not nicked one yet?

mashman

3rd November 2012, 16:15

What you not nicked one yet?

Don't judge everyone by your own standards

BoristheBiter

3rd November 2012, 16:27

Don't judge everyone by your own standards

So sorry,

Lets try that again.

Akzle, why didn't you nick the trailer when you nicked the boat.

Is that better?:finger:

mashman

3rd November 2012, 17:00

So sorry,

Lets try that again.

Akzle, why didn't you nick the trailer when you nicked the boat.

Is that better?:finger:

adding more words doesn't make you any less of :tugger:... on the positive side, it doesn't make you more of one either

Genestho

3rd November 2012, 18:05

In this day and age I thought we'd moved past viewing being off grid as having to live like Barb and Tom. It would seem not, how 70's of you all... moreover it makes you a hypocrite. I'm laughing too, but not for the same reasons as yourself.

I dunno, I find it completely acceptable... maybe not inspiring, but definitely acceptable.

Well yes I'm not at all surprised, you would find it perfectly acceptable wouldn't you, another keyboard grandstander who likes to whinge (Where are you from again??) and insult people's intelligence based on your own perceived experiences but, does nothing quantitative about change in the real world. How quaint. :devil2:

I'm pretty sure you won't find anything from me exclaiming "I'm trying to get off the Grid, man". It seems quite stoopid to me to clearly be doing the exact opposite by being quite open on a soap box, off the grid is simply - you "don't exist."

I've lobbied and had success. I've worked hard at life in general and had success. I've been a moody teenager on the wrong side of the tracks - funnily enough I recognise every word the man in the green font writes. I've been completely anti-social in my youth saw the light and went for it, I've fallen down many many times and got back up, I've been royally stood on at times so others get what they want out of me and that's not even half of it and I'm still on the side of society no matter what I've been thrown.

If you're going to call people hypocrites, probably pay to know what you're talking about.

And by the way - you don't seem to have a wide range of friends from all areas of society - if you did, you'd know that generally people are diverse and not lacking in imagination, nor "sheeple", maybe they are in your world or where you come from and for that I truly feel sorry for your limited experience in people, but, they are certainly not in mine.

mashman

3rd November 2012, 18:51

Well yes I'm not at all surprised, you would find it perfectly acceptable wouldn't you, another keyboard grandstander who likes to whinge (Where are you from again??) and insult people's intelligence based on your own perceived experiences but, does nothing quantitative about change in the real world. How quaint. :devil2:

I'm pretty sure you won't find anything from me exclaiming "I'm trying to get off the Grid, man". It seems quite stoopid to me to clearly be doing the exact opposite by being quite open on a soap box, off the grid is simply - you "don't exist."

I've lobbied and had success. I've worked hard at life in general and had success. I've been a moody teenager on the wrong side of the tracks - funnily enough I recognise every word the man in the green font writes. I've been completely anti-social in my youth saw the light and went for it, I've fallen down many many times and got back up, I've been royally stood on at times so others get what they want out of me and that's not even half of it and I'm still on the side of society no matter what I've been thrown.

If you're going to call people hypocrites, probably pay to know what you're talking about.

And by the way - you don't seem to have a wide range of friends from all areas of society - if you did, you'd know that generally people are diverse and not lacking in imagination, nor "sheeple", maybe they are in your world or where you come from and for that I truly feel sorry for your limited experience in people, but, they are certainly not in mine.

A keyboard grandstander that will happily embrace something that this society seems to misunderstand, fear and ridicule, iffen ye don't mind. I don't believe that going off grid does anything for anyone other than those who go off grid, but I can understand why people would do so and why they would also distance themselves as much as humanly possible from what you people call society.

Never said you were tryin to get off grid and have also read some of your relatively recent battles with an awe. What do you mean by "recognise every word the man in the green font writes.". I ask as the context in which you have it wrapped is that of a moody, anti-social individual with ghost chips on his shoulder.

I wasn't calling anyone a hypocrite, but can see why you thought that. It should have read similar but in the context of, you can't use the roads, you can't use the internet, you can't excuse yourself from society without being labelled a hypocrite. An "argument" that has me pissing myself with laughter.

What do you know of my friends/acquaintances/social circles? these days though, it is a hell of a lot smaller and that is very much my choice. I have my reasons. I'm fully aware of what people are capable of. Thanks for your pity, but my world and my world view are fine tyvm.

mashman

3rd November 2012, 19:23

(Where are you from again??)

Thought an answer for this deserved a post all to itself :). I've come to understand that I come from a rock spinning in the middle of nowhere. It's full of people of different colours, races, ages, shapes, sizes, speaking different languages etc... it also suffers from mass hysteria which is perpetuated by a value system that runs via a medium known as money. Some deluded unimaginative souls believe that it's the best we can do, I know, I were one, and defend their religion to such an extent that they let entire continents go hungry. These same people rape, pillage and murder in order to claim that which isn't theirs, more recently referred to as a fiction, under some misapprehension that they have bought and paid for that which they claim. The devastation that that leaves behind is written off and they crow that we should be greatful that it isn't us. Whilst that is a truth that I understand, it doesn't excuse the lack of imagination that it has taken to get us to this point. One of the biggest highlighters of that fact is charity. Stunning given that the resources are freely available, yet attributed value to the point where a charitable position must be taken in order for those who don't have money to receive the most basic rights that mankind can offer. That may seem like fucked up hippy shit to you, but it eats at me like nothing I've ever known... and I'm all but powerless to do anything about it. For NOW (snigger), it's a website. I guess we'll see if it goes any further.

I come from the planet Earth and from the looks of things, my world is better than yours. I'd love to show it to you someday. Ommmmmmmmmmm

Akzle

3rd November 2012, 19:53

So sorry,

Lets try that again.

Akzle, why didn't you nick the trailer when you nicked the boat.

Is that better?:finger:

no, i was actually given it, (sans trailer), cos i'm such a nice guy.

... does nothing quantitative about change in the real world.

so, you do, what?

It seems quite stoopid to me to clearly be doing the exact opposite by being quite open on a soap box, off the grid is simply - you "don't exist."

no, that's only the definition YOU are applying to it. in an energy sense it means only to not be connected to the power grid.
as much as i would like to "not exist" in a corporatemonetary-fiction sense, i don't think it's inherently part of being off grid.

I've been a moody teenager on the wrong side of the tracks

would that i was a moody teenager. money, drugs and horny bitches turned up from nowhere, parties lasted for days or weeks, and the taxi of mum never ran a bill.

I've been completely anti-social

i'm not anti social, i'm not even anti-societal. i am anti- the society that persists in NZ.

I'm still on the side of society no matter what I've been thrown.

your call.

you'd know that generally people are diverse and not lacking in imagination, nor "sheeple",

you reckon.?
on an individual basis you'd be right, like on an individual basis americans aren't dicks. (present company excluded) but as a society, they're the biggest dicks on the planet.
similarly, teh "society" in NZ are sheep. shit goes down left right and centre, some people lay low, fly under the radar, but break the law (society's rules) for whatever reason. that's not being a very good member of society, after all those rules are imposed for the good of society, innit?

007XX

3rd November 2012, 19:55

i don't really "live amongst" society, i do interact with em.

*sigh*

Please stop splitting hair and be gracious enough to see when someone is giving you room to have your opinion while keeping their right to uphold their own.

Ramming your viewpoint down my throat is only likely to make me lose interest in it.

I do not know the conditions within which you live, and therfore I cannot make a call for certain as to whether you are or are not indeed living within or outside of society's rules and boundaries.

You could argue I suppose that I should take your word for it. But I personally only believe my own judgement, so that would be where we come to a stalemate.

Ergo, let's agree to disagree.

scumdog

3rd November 2012, 20:08

*sigh*
Ramming your viewpoint down my throat is only likely to make me lose interest in it..

It seems often to be his tactic - with the same effect...

mashman

3rd November 2012, 20:22

Ramming your viewpoint down my throat is only likely to make me lose interest in it.

It seems often to be his tactic - with the same effect...

Perhaps the reception is faulty.

scumdog

3rd November 2012, 20:30

Perhaps the reception is faulty.

I doubt it.

It's the delivery...

scumdog

3rd November 2012, 20:32

Thought an answer for this deserved a post all to itself :). I've come to understand that I come from a rock spinning in the middle of nowhere. It's full of people of different colours, races, ages, shapes, sizes, speaking different languages etc... it also suffers from mass hysteria which is perpetuated by a value system that runs via a medium known as money. Some deluded unimaginative souls believe that it's the best we can do, I know, I were one, and defend their religion to such an extent that they let entire continents go hungry. These same people rape, pillage and murder in order to claim that which isn't theirs, more recently referred to as a fiction, under some misapprehension that they have bought and paid for that which they claim. The devastation that that leaves behind is written off and they crow that we should be greatful that it isn't us. Whilst that is a truth that I understand, it doesn't excuse the lack of imagination that it has taken to get us to this point. One of the biggest highlighters of that fact is charity. Stunning given that the resources are freely available, yet attributed value to the point where a charitable position must be taken in order for those who don't have money to receive the most basic rights that mankind can offer. That may seem like fucked up hippy shit to you, but it eats at me like nothing I've ever known... and I'm all but powerless to do anything about it. For NOW (snigger), it's a website. I guess we'll see if it goes any further.

I come from the planet Earth and from the looks of things, my world is better than yours. I'd love to show it to you someday. Ommmmmmmmmmm

We're all on the planet Earth, the same world - it's just our perception of it that differs.

Edbear

3rd November 2012, 20:36

If you find yourself taking life too seriously, stand naked in front of a full length mirror... :whistle:

mashman

3rd November 2012, 20:36

I doubt it.

It's the delivery...

:rofl: of course it is. I know if I can't handle the way someone is conveying something that I automatically tune out and blame the delivery.

We're all on the planet Earth, the same world - it's just our perception of it that differs.

far out man... you should lay off the :doobey:. My world is my perception. Different worlds comrade.

007XX

3rd November 2012, 21:43

Perhaps the reception is faulty.

Indeed. Unlike you, I don't speak fluent troll.

mashman

3rd November 2012, 22:01

Indeed. Unlike you, I don't speak fluent troll.

That almost hurt my feeling... but, as he did say

sometimes yes, mainly no. i generally live by and believe what i post....

and given his choice of lifestyle, amongst other things, I see no reason to read his words as being anything other than having lashings of truth with a sprinkling of fun. Then again, I could be very wrong due to faulty wiring.

scumdog

3rd November 2012, 22:03

and given his choice of lifestyle, amongst other things, I see no reason to read his words as being anything other than having lashings of truth with a sprinkling of fun. Then again, I could be very wrong due to faulty wiring.

Kinda says nothing Mashy - you sound like a politician mate...:lol:

BoristheBiter

3rd November 2012, 22:06

That almost hurt my feeling... but, as he did say

and given his choice of lifestyle, amongst other things, I see no reason to read his words as being anything other than having lashings of truth with a sprinkling of fun. Then again, I could be very wrong due to faulty wiring.

Faulty wiring, his or yours?

mashman

3rd November 2012, 22:12

Kinda says nothing Mashy - you sound like a politician mate...:lol:

fuckin hurtful bastard...

Faulty wiring, his or yours?

Most definitely mine.

scissorhands

4th November 2012, 05:36

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRJZhW7laZbiNyrhUC6W3rvwTO0yDJ1F TdHGBPlcRjcQNH69twj

I confused as to who/what are the windmills here

Akzle

4th November 2012, 08:00

Ramming your viewpoint down my throat is only likely to make me lose interest in it.

I do not know the conditions within which you live, a
...I should take your word for it.

Ergo, let's agree to disagree.

love, if i wanted anything in your throat it wouldn't be my opinion :devil2:

i'm not trying to convert you, i think i've said this before.

[agree to disagree] ... [...

[IMG]

I confused as to who/what are the windmills here

i'm the gey on teh high horse. see my avatar?

(the horse is high in the sense of smoking dope, not any kind of moral position:D)

BoristheBiter

4th November 2012, 08:19

fuckin hurtful bastard...

Most definitely mine.

that explains quite a lot

love, if i wanted anything in your throat it wouldn't be my opinion :devil2:

i'm not trying to convert you, i think i've said this before.

[agree to disagree] ... [...

i'm the gey on teh high horse. see my avatar?

(the horse is high in the sense of smoking dope, not any kind of moral position:D)

So you're the gay on a horse that is stoned.
So now not only are you saying you DO interact with society, making you part of it, and you give yourself a title used by society, now you say that you inflict your addictions onto others.

Oh this thread just gets better but not i a good way.

007XX

4th November 2012, 11:20

[COLOR="#139922"]
love, if i wanted anything in your throat it wouldn't be my opinion :devil2:
]

I'm torn between being genuinely amused and the desire to throttle you for being such a cocky smartarse. It would be a tad hypocritical on my part though given my own sense of humour, so me thinks that overall, amusement is winning.

Just remember that before you can get to the throat, you got to get past the teeth :devil2:

SMOKEU

4th November 2012, 11:22

Just remember that before you can get to the throat, you got to get past the teeth :devil2:

Are you a biter?

007XX

4th November 2012, 11:26

Are you a biter?

If it gets to that. I'm not foolish enough to ignore that based on brute physical strength alone, a woman is bound to be outweighed.

One must do what one can to tip the balance in times of need. That includes turning into an alley cat if required.

But then again, I've also been known to bite a pillow or two :innocent:

Big Dave

4th November 2012, 12:19

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRJZhW7laZbiNyrhUC6W3rvwTO0yDJ1F TdHGBPlcRjcQNH69twj

I confused as to who/what are the windmills here

The bit with the window, door and 4 blades.

Akzle

4th November 2012, 20:59

So you're the gay on a horse that is stoned.
So now not only are you saying you DO interact with society, making you part of it, and you give yourself a title used by society, now you say that you inflict your addictions onto others.

gey, not gay.
i've never said i don't interact with society, i've said ( a few times now) that interacting with, does not make you part of. after all, i interact with you and i'm not a cunt.
okay. i am a cunt.
but i'm not like you.

title used by society? which is that?
inflict? addictions? come on borry boy. try harder.

Akzle

4th November 2012, 21:28

Just remember that before you can get to the throat, you got to get past the teeth :devil2:

I've also been known to bite a pillow or two

you're such a flirt. <_<

((no offense intended, by anything i've said, this is KB after all.))

007XX

5th November 2012, 06:30

you're such a flirt. <_<

Guilty as charged, tis a bit of a trademark. All in good fun though, and those who know me on here know it is always meant with respect.

[/QUOTE] ((no offense intended, by anything i've said, this is KB after all.))[/QUOTE]

Can't remember the last time anyone managed to offend me, here or anywehere else for that matter.

PLease don't tell me you'd be another keyboard hero who deflates like a cheap blow up doll when meeting in RL. I'd be ever so disappointed.

BoristheBiter

5th November 2012, 06:42

gey, not gay.
i've never said i don't interact with society, i've said ( a few times now) that interacting with, does not make you part of. after all, i interact with you and i'm not a cunt.
okay. i am a cunt.
but i'm not like you.

title used by society? which is that?
inflict? addictions? come on borry boy. try harder.

But if you interact with society wouldn't that make you part of it? even if by proxy alone?
You are interacting with us here and now so at this point you are part of society.
You say you have friends and people that you help or work for or whatever so that makes you part of a community, making you part of society.
If you really wanted to not be part of society you wouldn't be on here trying to defend your position.

And your right your not a cunt like me, for I have warmth and depth.

BoristheBiter

5th November 2012, 06:44

Guilty as charged, tis a bit of a trademark. All in good fun though, and those who know me on here know it is always meant with respect.

((no offense intended, by anything i've said, this is KB after all.))[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Can't remember the last time anyone managed to offend me, here or anywehere else for that matter.

PLease don't tell me you'd be another keyboard hero who deflates like a cheap blow up doll when meeting in RL. I'd be ever so disappointed.[/QUOTE]

I think you might be OK as he does seem to be full of hot air.

Genestho

5th November 2012, 08:00

A keyboard grandstander

You may be fully aware of what people are capable of and I'm pretty sure most of us are in the same boat here, but I really think it's coloured your view and again, it's clear you haven't met all types in society.
Whether you realise it or not, in two years of posting there's an under lying theme, that wealthy people think they are better than us - who, us?

You mean you, right? If you were any more serious than tapping at your keyboard you would take your website to a political party, I'm sure one could do with an idea or two from a chap that's come from an almost completely collapsed monetry system.

Trust me, people don't come to you, "one day" is over the rainbow.

Usual Money is evil, spin

Life among many things, is a game. Make the wrong choice and suffer the consequences. In the good times you make the most, in the hard times you suck it up.

It's not money that's evil, it's the people that can't control themselves and that includes consumers who buy stuff they can't afford and don't save for rainy days.
You may say it's the Govt's fault, the bankers the corporates, they just provide the tools there is no arm twisting going on, the consumer makes their own choices.

Some of us do that just fine, infact there's heaps of us that do that, always have, always will.

You'll never change people, ever.

Why else is there the term consumerism, it's rife and feeds off its own writhing body.

Ohhhh hahaa, so tell me how you feel the need to reassure me that your life is better than mine, (I'm sure there must be a Gene Wilder MeMe for that?)

Ahhhh. Sweetheart, my point was despite everything that's how I come to be who I am today.
That's actually good stuff. Life changing, yanno? But I'm sure you already knew that!:bleh:

Questions

Poppet, I really think you're moving your own goalposts ever so slightly for the benefit of our entertainment and your own amusement. :)

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRJZhW7laZbiNyrhUC6W3rvwTO0yDJ1F TdHGBPlcRjcQNH69twj

I confused as to who/what are the windmills here

I was thinking it was more of a sport? Like lob for lob in tennis..:shifty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRpVbQvrOxM

Although I much prefer squash, there's no decent grunt clips on youtube!!

This bone's well and truly knawed on! Tally ho chaps!!!

007XX

5th November 2012, 08:36

I think you might be OK as he does seem to be full of hot air.

I've been lucky enough to meet a lot of KBers over the years, and 99% are fantastic people.

Very few have as much bark as bite though, which is not a bad thing really. Many a thread on here has discussed the phenomenon of "behind the keyboard courage", a perfectly normal Jekyll and Hyde personality we all seem to develop at one point or another.

I just like the fact that Akzle stands up for what he believes in. Like him or not, he is allowed his viewpoint, whether it makes sense to the rest of us or not is kind of irrelevant in the end.

Banditbandit

5th November 2012, 08:51

lucky bugger. my boat's missing a trailer (and the weather is shit anyway)

The weather wasn't that great here either - I was intending to cross the bar and go out to about 25 metres ... the sea was choppy so I stayed inside the harbour - and caught nothing (good time sitting out there doing nothing tho')

BoristheBiter

5th November 2012, 08:58

I've been lucky enough to meet a lot of KBers over the years, and 99% are fantastic people.

Very few have as much bark as bite though, which is not a bad thing really. Many a thread on here has discussed the phenomenon of "behind the keyboard courage", a perfectly normal Jekyll and Hyde personality we all seem to develop at one point or another.

I just like the fact that Akzle stands up for what he believes in. Like him or not, he is allowed his viewpoint, whether it makes sense to the rest of us or not is kind of irrelevant in the end.

It's like the "safe in my car so I will abuse you" syndrome.

I have nothing against Akzle, since he has stopped just abusing people, I guess a few infractions have changed that or maybe he has just grown up ever so slightly. It also helps when one doesn't take themselves too seriously.

The one thing I have learnt is if you post on here be ready to back it up as there is nothing some like better than to pull a post apart.

mashman

5th November 2012, 10:01

You may be fully aware of what people are capable of and I'm pretty sure most of us are in the same boat here, but I really think it's coloured your view and again, it's clear you haven't met all types in society.
Whether you realise it or not, in two years of posting there's an under lying theme, that wealthy people think they are better than us - who, us?

I'm not saying that I've met the 7 billion types of people that there are. Just some of them from a broad cross section of society.
I'll admit to that underlying theme up until about a year ago, however my view has changed somewhat since then. However I still believe that plenty of wealthy people still believe that they are better than whoever they decide to feel that they are better than, although my understanding as to why has grown, oddly enough thanks to KB.

If you were any more serious than tapping at your keyboard you would take your website to a political party, I'm sure one could do with an idea or two from a chap that's come from an almost completely collapsed monetry system.

Been there, done that (not with any great conviction yet) and got the result expected I guess. Have spoken with people who are "off grid" and they have aired concerns over such a system. They helped highlight some of the larger picture that I hadn't addressed. I am always open to the ideas of others, I may put up a fight when challenged, but that's not a unique stand point. It's an awefully large subject to cover in a few pages, especially given that it means something different to everyone. I am aware of this.

Trust me, people don't come to you, "one day" is over the rainbow.

I'm fully aware of that and I'm in no great rush as I have a life to live too. Do I make my one man protest, do I go and rark up certain sectors of society and do something completely insane, do I leave my family and pursue what I know is more beneficial for mankind etc... It's all rushing through my noggin and a great rate of knots and funnily enough the pace of my "progress" comes down to money, irrespective of the choice I make. If I can source funding someday, I'll go full tilt as the "radical" ideas can safely take a back seat.

Life among many things, is a game. Make the wrong choice and suffer the consequences. In the good times you make the most, in the hard times you suck it up.

It's not money that's evil, it's the people that can't control themselves and that includes consumers who buy stuff they can't afford and don't save for rainy days.
You may say it's the Govt's fault, the bankers the corporates, they just provide the tools there is no arm twisting going on, the consumer makes their own choices.

Some of us do that just fine, infact there's heaps of us that do that, always have, always will.

You'll never change people, ever.

Why else is there the term consumerism, it's rife and feeds off its own writhing body.

Ohhhh hahaa, so tell me how you feel the need to reassure me that your life is better than mine, (I'm sure there must be a Gene Wilder MeMe for that?)

Ahhhh. Sweetheart, my point was despite everything that's how I come to be who I am today.
That's actually good stuff. Life changing, yanno? But I'm sure you already knew that!

Fair enough... to a degree.

Money (value) is evil for our future. I've got absolutely no doubts on that score. The only reason people can't control themselves (consumerism, govts, corporates, bankers etc...) is because money is there. It puts people into positions that bring out the worst in us and more often than not it's the innocent people that get stung. You may say that that is the rough with the smooth, I say that it's an unnecessary rough. I'll not go into the whys because they are numerous and they all come down to money, not greed, but money, because we can print as much money as we like should we wish to. However some fancy economic therorum won't allow it unless it looks like that system is going to collapse, then they print it like it's going out of fashion. That's nothing more than a simple truth. Unfortunately it leaves people hungry, homeless, warring, jobless etc... again, just more simple truths. All things that are avoidable imho.

Yes some of us do just fine and some of us die, some of us get raped, some of us get "prostituted" etc... but that's ok, because lots of us are doing fine? Unavoidable?

I have changed people's minds, it started with myself, it moved on to my wife, some friends understand and would accept that life... and then I find that there are plenty of people (reportedly at least 50 million, from a website :shit:) out there who feel the same. Some of them are on KB. I don't know if someone helped to change their minds or whether they worked it out for themselves, but I highly doubt that they have always felt that way. People change, it's a fact.

Agreed. Consumerism does feed off itself and that we are all to blame etc... this MUST change for the sake of future generations otherwise we'll end up with absolute chaos and a human cull that'll make Africa look like a practice ground. You may not like the sounds of that, you may even think that it's a grand conspiracy or a prophecy of doom and gloom, but I don't see us moving in any other direction and refuse to accept that that is just the way it has to be. No doubt there will be others who won't accept that either.

:rofl:, I never meant that my life is better than yours by any means, however I did mean that the world I would like to live in would be better than the one we currently have... or is ending poverty in NZ not important? ending hunger in NZ not important? ending Education/Healthcare/Electricity/Housing/Recovery etc... affordability in NZ not important? It's all very possible if you want it to be.

I look to the future, my past is my past and has very little bearing on who I am today. There may well be a single point in my past when I decided that NOW is possible, but that's as far as it goes. In fact it was more than likely to do with me looking towards the future given the present. Semantics perhaps... a bit like not identifying oneself as part of a particular society and yet interacting with it because there really is very little choice and having people deny that you aren't part of that society. Not that they're missing the point, they're just not smart enough to be able to make the distinction.

BoristheBiter

5th November 2012, 12:05

I look to the future, my past is my past and has very little bearing on who I am today. There may well be a single point in my past when I decided that NOW is possible, but that's as far as it goes. In fact it was more than likely to do with me looking towards the future given the present. Semantics perhaps... a bit like not identifying oneself as part of a particular society and yet interacting with it because there really is very little choice and having people deny that you aren't part of that society. Not that they're missing the point, they're just not smart enough to be able to make the distinction.

I would say that your past has every bearing on who you are today.

Your last sentence assumes a lot.
Maybe it is you that is not smart enough to realize that you are wrong.
Maybe "living off grid" and "not part of society" are two different things.
Maybe you give the human race far too much credit.

"to have good, first you must have evil"

Akzle

5th November 2012, 12:11

But if you interact with society wouldn't that make you part of it? even if by proxy alone?
You are interacting with us here and now so at this point you are part of society.
You say you have friends and people that you help or work for or whatever so that makes you part of a community, making you part of society.
If you really wanted to not be part of society you wouldn't be on here trying to defend your position.

you really aren't trying are you? you're just making stuff up.
grab a dictionary before you try and use proxy in a sentence again.

community≠society.

there is no defence of my position, just stating. repeatedly because some people don't seem to comprehend. or they think their interpretation of english is more correct than mine.

i am interacting with KB society, the differnece between this and society at large is that I SIGNED UP FOR IT. i clicked "i've read and accept the terms and conditions" (i didn't actually read em, who does?, sorry mods) - not something that i've ever done, with society at large.

again. if i interact with the asian guy at the fruit shop, does that make me asian, or fruit? by your logic it has to be at least one...

PLease don't tell me you'd be another keyboard hero who deflates like a cheap blow up doll when meeting in RL. I'd be ever so disappointed.
my offer of an all-night-intriguing is still on the table...

Poppet, I really think you're moving your own goalposts ever so slightly for the benefit of our entertainment and your own amusement. :)

that's an easy out for ya, innit.

few have as much bark as bite though, which is not a bad thing really.
...kink'y....

mashman

5th November 2012, 12:36

I would say that your past has every bearing on who you are today.

Your last sentence assumes a lot.
Maybe it is you that is not smart enough to realize that you are wrong.
Maybe "living off grid" and "not part of society" are two different things.
Maybe you give the human race far too much credit.

"to have good, first you must have evil"

It can make for some interesting stories, but it doesn't make me who I currently am. That is defined by my future and it is my future, and others's's'sss'sss', that defines who I currently am.

My last sentence assumes what I wish it to. Your job is to translate it as you see fit... although I wouldn't dare to assume what your translation would be... much.

If the idea is right, which I believe it is, and I can stay as close to it as possible, then I won't be wrong. That doesn't mean that I'll never be wrong, just less so than those who don't believe in it at all.
I have said as much in a previous post, although the definition will change from person to person.
Maybe I am giving the human race too much credit, but given that they've made it this far, I reckon they're a pretty tough bunch that are capable of anything.

To have good you must first have to had worse I'll agree to, not necessarily evil. Take the tools away and evil will be very easy to spot and deal with... preferably with strong measures, death if need be.

007XX

5th November 2012, 14:09

[COLOR="#139922"]my offer of an all-night-intriguing is still on the table...
]

Dude, I'm lucky if I have enough energy at the end of the day to enjoy a little "me, myself and I" ...

However kind your offer, don't hold your breath for a go ahead on that one eh! :bleh:

Genestho

5th November 2012, 15:49

I'm not saying that I've met the 7 billion types of people that there are. Just some of them from a broad cross section of society.
I'll admit to that underlying theme up until about a year ago, however my view has changed somewhat since then. However I still believe that plenty of wealthy people still believe that they are better than whoever they decide to feel that they are better than, although my understanding as to why has grown, oddly enough thanks to KB.

Well, again.. I don't know any wealthy people that think they're better than anyone, almost all have come from the bottom up from hard work alone, so, well again, poor you is all I can think!

Been there, done that (not with any great conviction yet) and got the result expected I guess. Have spoken with people who are "off grid" and they have aired concerns over such a system. They helped highlight some of the larger picture that I hadn't addressed. I am always open to the ideas of others, I may put up a fight when challenged, but that's not a unique stand point. It's an awefully large subject to cover in a few pages, especially given that it means something different to everyone. I am aware of this.

Of course.

I'm fully aware of that and I'm in no great rush as I have a life to live too. Do I make my one man protest, do I go and rark up certain sectors of society and do something completely insane, do I leave my family and pursue what I know is more beneficial for mankind etc... It's all rushing through my noggin and a great rate of knots and funnily enough the pace of my "progress" comes down to money, irrespective of the choice I make. If I can source funding someday, I'll go full tilt as the "radical" ideas can safely take a back seat.

Right.

Fair enough... to a degree.

Money (value) is evil for our future. I've got absolutely no doubts on that score. The only reason people can't control themselves (consumerism, govts, corporates, bankers etc...) is because money is there. It puts people into positions that bring out the worst in us and more often than not it's the innocent people that get stung. You may say that that is the rough with the smooth, I say that it's an unnecessary rough. I'll not go into the whys because they are numerous and they all come down to money, not greed, but money, because we can print as much money as we like should we wish to. However some fancy economic therorum won't allow it unless it looks like that system is going to collapse, then they print it like it's going out of fashion. That's nothing more than a simple truth. Unfortunately it leaves people hungry, homeless, warring, jobless etc... again, just more simple truths. All things that are avoidable imho.

Right. And before money it was what? Commodities?
Before that Grain? It's what people do! They collect and trade as much tradeable current commodity, if it's not money next century it'll be something else!

Have you noticed what year we're currently in and there's been no change since the beginning of civilisation?

In year dot bc, there were thieves, rapists, bastards, poverty stricken, lazy, hard workers, child beaters, murderers, envy, strong and weak. NOTHING will change.
Every few decades there's a revolution or culture change of sorts, but we always end up the same. difference is now we're globalised for better or for worse, we're smarter, yet dumber!

Yes some of us do just fine and some of us die, some of us get raped, some of us get "prostituted" etc... but that's ok, because lots of us are doing fine? Unavoidable?

That's not what I meant and I'm sure you know it, hardly the same comparison. The point was, that some people are fiscally responsible and don't need to blame outside influences for simple economics of over spending or not saving!!

I have changed people's minds, it started with myself, it moved on to my wife, some friends understand and would accept that life... and then I find that there are plenty of people (reportedly at least 50 million, from a website :shit:) out there who feel the same. Some of them are on KB. I don't know if someone helped to change their minds or whether they worked it out for themselves, but I highly doubt that they have always felt that way. People change, it's a fact.

No doubt about it, it's one of the things that makes us interesting, we are the authors of our beliefs and can write and edit our beliefs continuously as times go by.

Agreed. Consumerism does feed off itself and that we are all to blame etc... this MUST change for the sake of future generations otherwise we'll end up with absolute chaos and a human cull that'll make Africa look like a practice ground. You may not like the sounds of that, you may even think that it's a grand conspiracy or a prophecy of doom and gloom, but I don't see us moving in any other direction and refuse to accept that that is just the way it has to be. No doubt there will be others who won't accept that either.

:rofl:, I never meant that my life is better than yours by any means, however I did mean that the world I would like to live in would be better than the one we currently have... or is ending poverty in NZ not important? ending hunger in NZ not important? ending Education/Healthcare/Electricity/Housing/Recovery etc... affordability in NZ not important? It's all very possible if you want it to be.

Trust me, So many people are doing their bit to co-exist and if more people bothered about doing their bit wouldn't be so bad out there. Much easier to whinge and join websites together though aye.

I look to the future, my past is my past and has very little bearing on who I am today. There may well be a single point in my past when I decided that NOW is possible, but that's as far as it goes. In fact it was more than likely to do with me looking towards the future given the present. Semantics perhaps... a bit like not identifying oneself as part of a particular society and yet interacting with it because there really is very little choice and having people deny that you aren't part of that society. Not that they're missing the point, they're just not smart enough to be able to make the distinction.

Right-o, you are who you are because of who you aren't yet, what you haven't experienced and what you don't know, yet? Seems legit, but granted it is your story!

Not smart enough? There you go again making assumptions. Maybe folks just don't care, maybe they have different ideas, maybe there's thousands of good people and volunteers in your community that you're taking for granted!!!

mashman

5th November 2012, 17:00

Right. And before money it was what? Commodities?
Before that Grain? It's what people do! They collect and trade as much tradeable current commodity of the century, if it's not money next century it'll be something else!

Have you noticed what year we're currently in and there's been no change since the beginning of civilisation?

In year dot bc, there were thieves, rapists, bastards, poverty stricken, lazy, hard workers, child beaters, murderers, envy, strong and weak. NOTHING will change.
Every few decades there's a revolution or culture change of sorts, but we always end up the same.

Thanks for the history lesson. Maybe those who define themselves by their past will learn from it for a change. The reason we end up with the same is because we don't try to change it at all. Stuck on the money-go-round (value-go-round if you prefer). In year dot bc there were many communities who worked together without any form of reward at all. Then some fucktards stepped in with their value system, my cow is worth more than your chicken etc... and here we are today, my time is worth more than your time, your job isn't as important as my job, you do not deserve the same as me because you are worth less as dictated by social convention, I have more skills than you, I read more books than you etc... I see it on KB and in real life every day, but sure, go ahead and pretend that it doesn't happen. It doesn't necessarily lie with the wealthy, but they certainly valued their idea and their time more than the "cooperative" of workers that built up their fortune.

That's not what I meant and I'm sure you know it, hardly the same comparison. The point was, that some people are fiscally responsible and don't need to blame outside influences for simple economics of over spending or not saving!!

I did know what you meant, I just took it a little further similar to yourself and the history of trade. Your saying that the economy doesn't have an affect of people's lives (tell that to those who have lost their livelihoods and their homes)? or that circumstances outwith their control don't shove someone to the bottom of the heap? Again, pretending that these things don't happen, or excusing it because it isn't the norm is the very reason that things don't change. You don't value their position in the slightest.

Trust me, So many people are doing their bit to co-exist and if more people bothered about doing their bit wouldn't be so bad out there. Much easier to whinge and join websites together though aye.

Oh I know there are. I spent an eye opening 2 weeks in Kosovo. It is much easier to whinge and join websites together... it's even easier to ignore the fact that people die needlessly around the world everyday, have poor health, have poor education, are lesser human beings than ourselves.

Right-o, you are who you are because of who you aren't yet, what you haven't experienced and what you don't know, yet? Seems legit, it's your story!

Not smart enough? There you go again making assumptions. Maybe folks just don't care, maybe they have different ideas, maybe there's thousands of good people and volunteers in your community that you're taking for granted!!!

:rofl:... oddly enough and as strange as it may seem, yes, absolutely, I am who I am because I aren't allowed to be.

2 for 2 eh, ya don't see that everyday, and the pair of you saying that I'm making assumptions :killingme... my sincerest apologies that I had a completely different meaning for that phrase than you and Boris quoted. You don't think that that phrase could mean something other than how you read it? Or did the fact that Boris missed the point as well taint your view? I'm more than happy to explain what I meant further should you wish... but I won't worry about you not doing so, because you told me what I meant :facepalm:. On a daily basis I realise that there out people out there doing stuff to help people and I detest that they have to do so under such poor funding conditions. I don't take it for granted, in fact I see it as a travesty of human justice and an inevitable yet unrequired part of the value system, that there are people who have to rely on volunteers. Those volunteers would still be there for the people they help, and so would many many many more if the financial system was removed, as would there be more teachers available, doctors, nurses, builders etc... as we wouldn't have to employ to a budget. Not being cheeky, but is it sinking in yet?

Genestho

5th November 2012, 20:37

Thanks for the history lesson. Maybe those who define themselves by their past will learn from it for a change. The reason we end up with the same is because we don't try to change it at all. Stuck on the money-go-round (value-go-round if you prefer). In year dot bc there were many communities who worked together without any form of reward at all. Then some fucktards stepped in with their value system, my cow is worth more than your chicken etc... and here we are today, my time is worth more than your time, your job isn't as important as my job, you do not deserve the same as me because you are worth less as dictated by social convention, I have more skills than you, I read more books than you etc... I see it on KB and in real life every day, but sure, go ahead and pretend that it doesn't happen. It doesn't necessarily lie with the wealthy, but they certainly valued their idea and their time more than the "cooperative" of workers that built up their fortune.

Ahhh. Go on then, one more lob. :shifty:
You make it sound like it was some alien that bought the value system in. It's human nature!

Maybe those who think the unforseeable future defines them could see that society should and does continue to evolve but it still has basic human nature faults, this is something that can never change unless you eliminate inherent negative characteristics and so on, these faults can't be pre- packaged to suit your requirements, many will pervert the system and take liberties because they can, because they want to.

Don't "we" me, white boy. People DO try to change things, darn sight more than you're doing!
Going back to simple economics, I submit to you: some people are not on the Money go round at all.

If you want to change centuries of consumerism and ownership behaviour, I suggest you press the red button and see what scuttles out of the rubble, I bet before too long it will all go the same, and it'll start with: who's got the biggest collection of rubble and cockroaches to trade.

See, in your utopia you can't plan for human nature, or lack of it.

I did know what you meant, I just took it a little further similar to yourself and the history of trade. Your saying that the economy doesn't have an affect of people's lives (tell that to those who have lost their livelihoods and their homes)? or that circumstances outwith their control don't shove someone to the bottom of the heap? Again, pretending that these things don't happen, or excusing it because it isn't the norm is the very reason that things don't change. You don't value their position in the slightest.

Don't I? really? You assume again.
I value their position because I've been there and I know for sure you can climb out, you can climb out of almost any situation if you put your mind to it, you may have to hit the bottom first but you can and will climb out. I'm a kiwi kid of the 70's. There's heaps of us, crazy - I KNOW!

Oh it's obvious there's affects on peoples lives I've been helping friends with re shaping and re-adapting businesses in this climate and we know this is all un-chartered territory, it's said this depression could last for near 20 years, it's also said speculation can cause no amount of horror - speculation works both ways though, again survival is all simple economics.

Oh I know there are. I spent an eye opening 2 weeks in Kosovo. It is much easier to whinge and join websites together... it's even easier to ignore the fact that people die needlessly around the world everyday, have poor health, have poor education, are lesser human beings than ourselves.

I'm sorry, but I'm more worried about my own country wo/men, people die needlessly and not even in someone else's wars. And again that's you suggesting that others are lesser human beings, those are your words, dude. Say something long enough and it becomes a believed state of mind.

:rofl:... oddly enough and as strange as it may seem, yes, absolutely, I am who I am because I aren't allowed to be.

Bummer, you should change that. You know what they say, Be the change you want to see in the world! Hehe, Sorry I couldn't resist - that was naughty of me :devil2:

2 for 2 eh, ya don't see that everyday, and the pair of you saying that I'm making assumptions :killingme... my sincerest apologies that I had a completely different meaning for that phrase than you and Boris quoted. You don't think that that phrase could mean something other than how you read it? Or did the fact that Boris missed the point as well taint your view? I'm more than happy to explain what I meant further should you wish... but I won't worry about you not doing so, because you told me what I meant :facepalm:. On a daily basis I realise that there out people out there doing stuff to help people and I detest that they have to do so under such poor funding conditions. I don't take it for granted, in fact I see it as a travesty of human justice and an inevitable yet unrequired part of the value system, that there are people who have to rely on volunteers. Those volunteers would still be there for the people they help, and so would many many many more if the financial system was removed, as would there be more teachers available, doctors, nurses, builders etc... as we wouldn't have to employ to a budget. Not being cheeky, but is it sinking in yet?

Yeah, see you've made more than 2 for 2 assumptions today now haven't you, you're on a roll!:bleh:
It's been said on more than one occasion - you might need to check your delivery, how would I know it has another meaning than from what you write, must say some of your sentences are hard to read!

Sink in? You are joking!

Nope and it's never going to while I use logic, while I accept things could change, your opinion is yours and I challenge it, please accept mine.

Different worlds, different experiences, different people, different views, different beliefs.

However, please :D Don't let my logic stop you from tapping away at the keyboard!

mashman

5th November 2012, 21:52

:clap: :rofl: thanks for that post. I dun gotta split this'n in two

Ahhh. Go on then, one more lob.:shifty:
You make it sound like it was some alien that bought the value system in. It's human nature!

Maybe those who think the unforseeable future defines them could see that society should and does continue to evolve but it still has basic human nature faults, this is something that can never change unless you eliminate inherent negative characteristics and so on, these faults can't be pre- packaged to suit your requirements, many will pervert the system and take liberties because they can, because they want to.

Don't "we" me, white boy. People DO try to change things, darn sight more than you're doing!
Going back to simple economics, I submit to you: some people are not on the Money go round at all.

If you want to change centuries of consumerism and ownership behaviour, I suggest you press the red button and see what scuttles out of the rubble, I bet before too long it will all go the same, and it'll start with: who's got the biggest collection of rubble and cockroaches to trade.

See, in your utopia you can't plan for human nature, or lack of it.

I thought we owed the aliems money? Isn't that where it comes from and why we have such a limited supply that there isn't enough to go around? I can't accept human nature as an argument, otherwise myself and others that feel similarly to myself would be aliems. If that is the case, I hear by relieve you of the need to use a value system.

I agree that society evolves and it's time to do so again, but with a human beings in mind, not money. Oh my giddy aunt, really, we'd need to remove the inherent negative characteristics of human nature before we could make a change? And here's me thinking that we live in a democracy. Removing the mechanism of value will remove most of the negative impacts of society. Ofcourse there will always be those who will try to pervert any system, but one without value will be by far harder to pervert... and those who try to pervert the system will be obvious and their actions will be miniscule in comparison to the deeds they get away with today.

Don't wag that scraggly finger at me woman, as I'm fully aware that there are those who are doing more than me, always have been, always will be and I only seek to follow their example and make their lives easier by offering them a society that will happily give their excess to those who need it and not expect anything in return. As I said earlier, the idea behind charity abhores me given the resources that are available. You can have what you need as long as someone can find the money for it? Awesomeness.

I'd rather manage it out of existence and educate it out of the next generation. Kids aren't born with an understanding of money, hell they don't even know what a tape cassette is. Time for the adults to lead by example, instead of squabbling over the scraps of paper and metal required to obtain "stuff". There's enough for all, even more so if consumerism disappears. To that end I would question anyone's motives for not wanting to walk such a path in order to ensure a future for the next generation. Or shall we wait for the big red button pushers to decide that nations should die because of their faith? or the amount of oil they have? or the amount of food they have? or the amount of diamonds they have?

In my "utopia", everyone is exactly how they are today, this minute. Your ide of my utopia seems to be far from the mark.

Don't I? really? You assume again.
I value their position because I've been there and I know for sure you can climb out, you can climb out of almost any situation if you put your mind to it, you may have to hit the bottom first but you can and will climb out. I'm a kiwi kid of the 70's. There's heaps of us, crazy - I KNOW!

Oh it's obvious there's affects on peoples lives I've been helping friends with re shaping and re-adapting businesses in this climate and we know this is all un-chartered territory, it's said this depression could last for near 20 years, it's also said speculation can cause no amount of horror - speculation works both ways though, again survival is all simple economics.

Ok so maybe there was a hint of a smile as I typed a few phrases, but nonetheless you chose to interpret them in a particular way. No doubt due to my posting history, of which you seem to pick and choose what I meant without seeking clarification, or even trying to put yourself in my shoes (not recommended). I've been at the bottom too, I was happy. Although I wasn't too happy with not eating so that my son could, or walking the 8 mile round trip to Uni, or scrabbling down the back of the sofa for nappy money etc... and now that I look back on it, I see no reason that I should have had to. Why shouldn't my son have had everything he needed without having to see myself and g/f stressing over where the next penny was going to come from? I am fully aware that I was not the only person to have done that back in the day. I am fully aware that the exact same thing goes on day in and day out today. I really really see no reason for it to be that way. Again begging the question, why would anyone fight against a system that advocates alleviating some of the pressure of family's/people in such a position? And all because of money, not human nature, but money.

So end the speculation of economics. Replace it with logistics. A needs B at C, no charge, no ties, no worries, job done. Considering that the economy crashes every 15 to 20 years, you'll excuse me for not putting any faith in it.

I'm sorry, but I'm more worried about my own country wo/men, people die needlessly and not even in someone else's wars. And again that's you suggesting that others are lesser human beings, those are your words, dude. Say something long enough and it becomes a believed state of mind.

I wasn't suggesting anything of the sort, I was citing it as a reason for them dying, receiving poor health treatment and poor education. I can understand why you may see it the opposite way though. Say something long enough eh... you should try to be more positive about human nature and stop focussing on the negative elements that are primarily situational then. I'll understand why you won't, sort of.

Bummer, you should change that. You know what they say, Be the change you want to see in the world! Hehe, Sorry I couldn't resist - that was naughty of me :devil:

:rofl:, no need to apologise, I've never felt more alive. Disappointed, but very very much alive and settling into my new skin further and further every single day. It's all positive.

mashman

5th November 2012, 21:53

Yeah, see you've made more than 2 for 2 assumptions today now haven't you, you're on a roll!:bleh:
It's been said on more than one occasion - you might need to check your delivery, how would I know it has another meaning than from what you write, must say some of your sentences are hard to read!

Sink in? You are joking!

Nope and it's never going to while I use logic, while I accept things could change, your opinion is yours and I challenge it, please accept mine.

Different worlds, different experiences, different people, different views, different beliefs.

However, please Don't let my logic stop you from tapping away at the keyboard!

I have? That's news to me... but please, by all means, don't for a minute stop to consider that those assumptions may have have meant something slightly different... even though I did say as much in an ealier post.
:rofl: I ain't all smart like some folks, my command of the engrish language is poor, so my delivery is what it is and all it can be unfortunately... and irrespective of how I may phrase me writin, ya still gotta get past your perception of the writee and your perception of their motives.

Dunno, is it sinkin in? as you seem to be mistranslating so much of what I try to write :bleh:

I accept your opinion and disgaree with it. I see no logic in your "argument". Human nature and its inability to change seems to be all you have, yet human beings constantly change, some even step out of society, some half out, some disassociate entirely etc... Those arguments have no logic if you're willing to accept that people will die because of money. I'd love to know how many crimes are committed due to human nature v's the quest for a simple buck. Removing money removes one lot of those crimes. Leave the money and it doesn't. Human nature in that they don't have to commit the crime v's removing the thing that they commit the crime for? I know which one logic would dictate would yield the better result.

Viva la difference... I whole heartedly agree with ya. You'll not object to a value free world then should democracy ever be employed to vote it in? You'll just accept it?

As stated above, you'll need to have some logic in your "argument" first before my fingers would stop a tappin sissa girl.

Genestho

5th November 2012, 21:59

mashman

5th November 2012, 22:09

Oh my Christ. How many times have you replied to the same post now? Did you go have a whiskey? How long did that all take??

You are just going round in circles. It's no wonder you get nothing done!! :weird: ahh a wee edit there.

:rofl: the compooter told me that my post was too long, so I split it in two only to find that the compooter was trollin me. Damn you micro chips. It didn't take too long, about 30 mins I guess or 21% of battery.

Stop confusing me, it's way to easy and it confuses me.

imdying

6th November 2012, 12:30

mashman

6th November 2012, 12:46

This is not true. Even at day dot there were commodities with a higher value than others. Last weeks news of the 4500 year old settlement in Bulgaria for wealthy salt miners was the most recent evidence of that.

and before then? :msn-wink:

GTRMAN

6th November 2012, 13:09

and before then? :msn-wink:

Barter economy or subsistence living....... I'm not sure that money is the problem. The attitude we have to it is the problem, the way we attach a persons value to the amount they have or don't have is the problem Avarice and greed is the problem.

imdying

6th November 2012, 13:13

and before then? :msn-wink:Nearly the exact same behaviour went on.

I had an animal skin I slept under... you had a twig you used to dig for roots with.

Naturally I would not swap my hard to get rug for your find anywhere twig.

The difference is, rather than negotiating a fair rate like we do now, you just bashed me with a rock and took my rug.

Edbear

6th November 2012, 13:19

Barter economy or subsistence living....... I'm not sure that money is the problem. The attitude we have to it is the problem, the way we attach a persons value to the amount they have or don't have is the problem Avarice and greed is the problem.

Yup! If it weren't money it would be whatever was held to be of value. Power and control is more valuable and people go all out for that too.

Human nature dictates what is of value and what is worth pursuing.

mashman

6th November 2012, 13:52

Barter economy or subsistence living....... I'm not sure that money is the problem. The attitude we have to it is the problem, the way we attach a persons value to the amount they have or don't have is the problem Avarice and greed is the problem.

Barter amongst those of the same community? Not a cooperative effort so that all reap the rewards/benefit of that cooperative effort? I agree with that to a certain extent. Avarice and greed is a motivation for some, however so is just getting a few bucks by hook or by crook. Remove the money and implement an economy based solely on the logistics of what is required to be done for "subsistence living" and what are you left with? Would you say that attitudes would change if money wasn't a factor? Would you say that avarice and greed would be as predominant as it is now?

Nearly the exact same behaviour went on.

I had an animal skin I slept under... you had a twig you used to dig for roots with.

Naturally I would not swap my hard to get rug for your find anywhere twig.

The difference is, rather than negotiating a fair rate like we do now, you just bashed me with a rock and took my rug.

Did it?

I had an animal skin I slept under... you had a twig you used to dig for roots with.

Naturally I would not swap my hard to get rug for your find anywhere twig... but I would show and help you get your own.

The difference is, rather than negotiating a fair rate like we do now, you just helped each other to both gain without risking needless injury. Jeez yer a neanderthal.

Yup! If it weren't money it would be whatever was held to be of value. Power and control is more valuable and people go all out for that too.

Human nature dictates what is of value and what is worth pursuing.

It probably would, but only if you decide to live that way. There is a choice. In this day and age I highly doubt power and control is possible without money.

Human nature dictates nothing of the sort. If it's there we either go for it or we don't. Not everyone pursues things because of the value those things have. So it isn't human nature, more a conscious individual circumstantial choice.

imdying

6th November 2012, 14:08

Naturally I would not swap my hard to get rug for your find anywhere twig... but I would show and help you get your own.No you wouldn't... you'd exploit a weakness as soon as you could find one, then you would slay me and take my loot.

I do agree that there was cooperation; but it would have been spawned from the desire for more. If I was too big for you to kill, you would have recruited a helper to bash me at the same time.

mashman

6th November 2012, 14:38

No you wouldn't... you'd exploit a weakness as soon as you could find one, then you would slay me and take my loot.

I do agree that there was cooperation; but it would have been spawned from the desire for more. If I was too big for you to kill, you would have recruited a helper to bash me at the same time.

Yes I would (2 pairs of eyes being better than 1 n all)... that and I'd prefer you squirming as I took what I wanted :shifty:

Spawned by a desire for more? That may well have been part of it, but I'd be surprised given that there were no refrigerators to keep the hoard fresh. Would I have not waited until you were asleep or potentially gained your trust and poisoned you? Always with the brute force, you must have anger issues :msn-wink:

imdying

6th November 2012, 15:07

Yes I would (2 pairs of eyes being better than 1 n all)... that and I'd prefer you squirming as I took what I wanted :shifty:

Spawned by a desire for more? That may well have been part of it, but I'd be surprised given that there were no refrigerators to keep the hoard fresh. Would I have not waited until you were asleep or potentially gained your trust and poisoned you? Always with the brute force, you must have anger issues :msn-wink:Of course with the brute force, that and cunning were all they had more than 4500 years ago.

But yes, the desire for more... why be warm, or fed, when you can be warm and fed? Why not be warm and fed if the only thing stopping you is me?

Community would have been fueled by this, the desire not to be bashed to death in your sleep. But people still want/need things... thus hello Mr Commerce.

Akzle

6th November 2012, 15:54

The difference is, rather than negotiating a fair rate like we do now, you just bashed me with a rock and took my rug.
:killingme
fair rate... hah.
...don't know much about economies, do ya?

SMOKEU

6th November 2012, 16:03

Nearly the exact same behaviour went on.

I had an animal skin I slept under... you had a twig you used to dig for roots with.

Naturally I would not swap my hard to get rug for your find anywhere twig.

The difference is, rather than negotiating a fair rate like we do now, you just bashed me with a rock and took my rug.

No you wouldn't... you'd exploit a weakness as soon as you could find one, then you would slay me and take my loot.

I do agree that there was cooperation; but it would have been spawned from the desire for more. If I was too big for you to kill, you would have recruited a helper to bash me at the same time.

So pretty much what the common coon is like these days then? Except instead of rugs and sticks, it's big screen TVs and nice cars.

imdying

6th November 2012, 16:11

Yes, somewhat, but it's not actually race related... most whiskey tango are exactly the same.

mashman

6th November 2012, 16:31

Of course with the brute force, that and cunning were all they had more than 4500 years ago.

But yes, the desire for more... why be warm, or fed, when you can be warm and fed? Why not be warm and fed if the only thing stopping you is me?

Community would have been fueled by this, the desire not to be bashed to death in your sleep. But people still want/need things... thus hello Mr Commerce.

And they also formed community's.

Surely it's be better to have both you an I being warm and fed by dividing our labor and thus expending less energy. It's entirely up to you if you would prefer to be a solitary creature. I can see the benefit of the division of labor, but can't see the benefit in having more than I can eat and extra shelter that I can't carry, or expend too much energy carrying...

Whilst I agree that that would be a reason for community, however I doubt that it was the primary reason for it. Dunno why value came into it. Some dickhead believing that their labor was worth more than someone else's probably.

scissorhands

6th November 2012, 16:57

Community would have been fueled by this, the desire not to be bashed to death in your sleep. But people still want/need things... thus hello Mr Commerce.

Now I get bashed just by turning on the telly. Talk about a severe concussion, I'm still recovering
4500 yrs ago we didnt have Jesus and Satan competing for souls.... villages where selling crap on every corner is the norm, out of control
Then recently some intergalactic idiot sends in the 'angels' to try and calm things down.

“The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them.”
― Karl Marx

Drew

6th November 2012, 17:31

Hey Rob, the thread started for you, has been hijacked by a chick and an Aprilia rider. You are seriously slipping mutha fucka!

mashman

6th November 2012, 17:50

Hey Rob, the thread started for you, has been hijacked by a chick and an Aprilia rider. You are seriously slipping mutha fucka!

Andate tutti a 'fanculo

Akzle

6th November 2012, 18:36

Hey Rob, the thread started for you, has been hijacked by a chick and an Aprilia rider. You are seriously slipping mutha fucka!

it's okay, i've got the her under control :shifty: and mashy's welcomme a'cause he agrees with me, mostly.

...even if he has absolutely no sense in motor-bi-cycling hardware.

Genestho

6th November 2012, 18:38

Hey Rob, the thread started for you, has been hijacked by a chick and an Aprilia rider. You are seriously slipping mutha fucka!
Hey hey hey!!! I've just booked my flights, remember that punch in the head I owe you!??:bleh:

Genestho

6th November 2012, 18:40

it's okay, i've got the her under control :shifty: and mashy's welcomme a'cause he agrees with me, mostly.
even if he has absolutely no sense in motor-bi-cycling hardware.

I suspect you couldn't control a piss-up in a brewery, and that's the nice version. :laugh:

Akzle

6th November 2012, 18:47

I suspect you couldn't control a piss-up in a brewery, and that's the nice version. :laugh:

...why would you try?

(ps, you're welcome to tongue my balls...)

Genestho

6th November 2012, 18:50

...why would you try?

(ps, you're welcome to tongue my balls...)
Oh? You have balls? :confused: If Drew hadn't mentioned the name "Rob'' I'd have thought YOU were the girl!:devil2:

Drew

6th November 2012, 19:27

Oh? You have balls? :confused: If Drew hadn't mentioned the name "Rob'' I'd have thought YOU were the girl!:devil2:
You really need to work on yer antagonism more. You suck at it!

Genestho

6th November 2012, 19:48

You really need to work on yer antagonism more. You suck at it! You know Drew. Must say, I'll admit that I'm kinda ok with that!! :laugh:

Drew

6th November 2012, 19:59

You know Drew. Must say, I'll admit that I'm kinda ok with that!! :laugh:

Yeah, you're too sweet by far for being any good at making people angry.

Kickaha

6th November 2012, 20:09

remember that punch in the head I owe you!??:bleh:

Give him a couple for me to :Pokey:

Genestho

6th November 2012, 20:18

Yeah, you're too sweet by far for being any good at making people angry. awwww you big softy! Hey! Don't blow my cover! Shhhhhhhhhhhh

Give him a couple for me to :Pokey:
I can do that for you, Kick!! Hehe!

mashman

6th November 2012, 20:35

it's okay, i've got the her under control :shifty: and mashy's welcomme a'cause he agrees with me, mostly.

...even if he has absolutely no sense in motor-bi-cycling hardware.

nope, you're not allowed to be thinking along those lines, you're going against your nature.

that was darn right nasty, irrespective of how true it is about any number of things

mashman

6th November 2012, 20:37

Yeah, you're too sweet by far for being any good at making people angry.

She is trying though

Genestho

6th November 2012, 20:56

She is trying though
Oo did you get angry?

Not really she's not trying to get you angry. She's trying to help you think. But instead she made you silly and then at that point, she had to give up because it was so absurd it was embarrassing for you.

And, you green blinged me for my last seriousish post, so from your comment there - you were enjoying the banter? :scratch:

She's now Mainly here to give the thread some class .. You know you guys need it! :devil2:

007XX

6th November 2012, 21:04

:corn: :corn: :corn:

mashman

6th November 2012, 22:28

Oo did you get angry?

Not really she's not trying to get you angry. She's trying to help you think. But instead she made you silly and then at that point, she had to give up because it was so absurd it was embarrassing for you.

And, you green blinged me for my last seriousish post, so from your comment there - you were enjoying the banter? :scratch:

She's now Mainly here to give the thread some class .. You know you guys need it! :devil2:

Not that trying, the other trying. I do so love not using emoticons anymore, they add a certain fun to the posting. No anger here doll.

Care to highlight what was so absurd?

heh... if you say so. You need an "argument" to make me think... and to think I had such high hopes for you as you were at least putting forwards something almost new.

You made me laugh, lots, and it wasn't sarcasm if that's what you were asking - indeed I was and noted it as such. Whilst I'm serious about the subject matter and the general content I have posted here, I'm not dismissing anything, contrary to popular belief it would seem... and I'm not cast from the die of putting people down.

So when are we going to see this class? So far I've seen you attained 3rd year status, got anything better?

mashman

6th November 2012, 22:28

:corn: :corn: :corn:

Careful, we wouldn't want you to choke on that stuff before Akzle has finished.

Drew

7th November 2012, 05:32

Careful, we wouldn't want you to choke on that stuff before Akzle has finished.You might. You don't even know her after all.

Genestho

7th November 2012, 05:53

Not that trying, the other trying. I do so love not using emoticons anymore, they add a certain fun to the posting. No anger here doll.

Care to highlight what was so absurd?

heh... if you say so. You need an "argument" to make me think... and to think I had such high hopes for you as you were at least putting forwards something almost new.

You made me laugh, lots, and it wasn't sarcasm if that's what you were asking - indeed I was and noted it as such. Whilst I'm serious about the subject matter and the general content I have posted here, I'm not dismissing anything, contrary to popular belief it would seem... and I'm not cast from the die of putting people down.

So when are we going to see this class? So far I've seen you attained 3rd year status, got anything better?

Nice.:msn-wink: Thanks for formatting that so I can read it.

So, somewhere back there, we had you calling people as a whole, Sheeple.

That is a term that absolutely grates me.

I feel it makes us sound as if we weren't a collection of different beings and that's not true, so I lobbed back that clearly, you hadn't interacted with all types of society.

I maintained to you, that human nature is the barrier to your utopia; that you can't pre-package people.

That we have always been this way, we may have been the other way for a few minutes in the scale of time, that we have evolved but, essentially we stay the same, you maintain that human nature is a collection of individuals, do you see where that ended up, where we agreed?

Now, something happened the other night where you either popped a vein or you had a wee drinky drinky, or whatever.
I just couldn't read the wall of un formatted text. I felt sorry for you, because I could tell there may have been some enlightening, but I couldn't participate, too much hard work.

The following is a pre-prepared post from the other night, before I gave up:

You question the human nature "argument" I did call it an argument, I'll apologise and re-name it an "intelligent debate" with dips and peaks.
Riddle me this and these are just off the top of my head and Wikipedia...

Why does a pedophile molest a child. Because he wants to or psychologically programmed this way.

Why does a 3 year old toddler take what he wants from another and say "mine"? Because he wants to, 9/10 toddlers will grow and share.

Why does a rapist rape? Power or I'll even go as far as an insatiable warped desire.

Why do teenagers cruise the streets tagging and taking clothes off clothes lines or nicking stuff, I can assure you, it's because they want to and their mates do it. I'll add boredom here, too.

Why do school kids bully? Because they want to either for fun, or because their mates are doing it.

Why do we have an abundance of mental health sufferers do what they do, because they're programmed that way from birth or trauma.

Probably 60% of murders I've been privy to are purely because they have no self control, or want to.

Why do Partners beat their Partners, let's say 50% for power. I suspect it would be more

Why do some parents, step or otherwise beat their kids? Because they want to, or they have no self control.

Why are there Dictators? What about good people that go Mob Rule, could we even use Germany/Hitler as an example?

Then we have personality disorders [Wikipedia]:

The first group are the Eccentric Personality Disorders. These people often appear strange or peculiar to others.

Paranoid Personality Disorder – individual generally tends to interpret the actions of others as threatening.

Schizoid Personality Disorder – individual generally detached from social relationships, and shows a narrow range of emotional expression in various social settings.

Schizotypal Personality Disorder – individual is uncomfortable in close relationships, has thought or perceptual distortions, and peculiarities of behavior.

The second group are the Dramatic Personality Disorders. These people have intense emotional mood swings and distorted perceptions of themselves and impulsive behaviours.

Antisocial Personality Disorder – individual shows a pervasive disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others.

Borderline Personality Disorder – individual shows a generalized pattern of instability in interpersonal relationships, self-image, and observable emotions, and significant impulsiveness.

Histrionic Personality Disorder - individual often displays excessive emotionality and attention seeking in various contexts. They tend to overreact to other people, and are often perceived as shallow and self-centered.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder – individual has a grandiose view of themselves, a need for admiration, and a lack of empathy that begins by early adulthood and is present in various situations. These individuals are very demanding in their relationships.

The third group are the Anxious Personality Disorders. These people are often fearful and anxious of one or many things.

Avoidant Personality Disorder – individual is socially inhibited, feels inadequate, and is oversensitive to criticism

Dependent Personality Disorder – individual shows an extreme need to be taken care of that leads to fears of separation, and passive and clinging behavior.

Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder – individual is preoccupied with orderliness, perfectionism, and control at the expense of flexibility, openness, and efficiency.

Luckily there's the rest of society, I'm not going to bother defining normal, there is no normal, only a scale of normality!

Whatever you do, you can't ever balance equality. NONE of the above examples have to do with money, it's human nature, we evolve, but we stay the same.

Strangely enough, I had my listener mag open at an article I hadn't read yet when I logged off here last night.

No where near as in depth, but same view.

People huh?

scumdog

7th November 2012, 05:59

You question the human nature "argument" I did call it an argument, I'll apologise and re-name it an "intelligent debate" with dips and peaks.
Riddle me this and these are just off the top of my head...

Why does a pedophile molest a child. Because he wants to or psychologically programmed this way.
.............etc etc

Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder – individual is preoccupied with orderliness, perfectionism, and control at the expense of flexibility, openness, and efficiency.

Luckily there's the rest of society, I'm not going to bother defining normal, there is no normal, only a scale of normality!

Whatever you do, you can't ever balance equality. NONE of the above examples have to do with money, it's human nature, we evolve, but we stay the same.

Strangely enough, I had my listener mag open at an article I hadn't read yet when I logged off here last night.

No where near as in depth, but same view.

People huh?

One of the best posts by anybody on this thread...most others I could happily slot into PD.

BoristheBiter

7th November 2012, 07:08

Nice.:msn-wink:

People huh?

you must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Genestho again.

You're better than me. I gave up this thread days ago.

Akzle

7th November 2012, 07:12

:corn: :corn: :corn:

Careful, we wouldn't want you to choke on that stuff before Akzle has finished.

nah, i'm at about that point, too. :corn:

where's OP?

((i like you here mashy, a'cause it means esplaining e'erything dunn't fall to me))

Edbear

7th November 2012, 07:25

nah, i'm at about that point, too. :corn:

where's OP?

((i like you here mashy, a'cause it means esplaining e'erything dunn't fall to me))

By definition, you are a part of our society. You may or may not agree with teh standards and laws of our society but saave from physically removing yourself from it you must remain part of it. Not recognising the authority of the society does not mean you are not part of it as regardless, you are subject to its rules and will be dealt with by them.

"A society, or a human society, is a group of people related to each other through persistent relations, or a large social grouping sharing the same geographical or virtual territory, subject to the same political authority and dominant cultural expectations. Human societies are characterized by patterns of relationships (social relations) between individuals who share a distinctive culture and institutions; a given society may be described as the sum total of such relationships among its constituent members. In the social sciences, a larger society often evinces stratification and/or dominance patterns in subgroups.".

BoristheBiter

7th November 2012, 07:27

nah, i'm at about that point, too. :corn:

where's OP?

((i like you here mashy, a'cause it means esplaining e'erything dunn't fall to me))

But that's the point you explain what you mean Mashedpotatoman just sounds like a troll.

007XX

7th November 2012, 07:50

Careful, we wouldn't want you to choke on that stuff before Akzle has finished.

I got practice, but thanks ever so much for you worrying about my welfare. Been on here long enough to know when a thread has gone past its point of interest by means of mindless arguments instead of constructive debating.

You might. You don't even know her after all.

You want me to choke? Please explain...

you must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Genestho again.

You're better than me. I gave up this thread days ago.

Same here. I'm loving sitting back and watching young Genestho carry out her very well worded battle cry. Tis a thing of beauty.

But that's the point you explain what you mean Mashedpotatoman just sounds like a troll.

Yes, yes... Do eeeettt!!

Drew

7th November 2012, 09:14

You want me to choke? Please explain.!Not in the slightest. But I'm not him.What if you hit it off big time, you leave hubby to have Akzel bounce his nads on your chin every day. But one day you get too toothy and he starts to hate you. In this scenario, he might hope you choke...Just sayin.

skippa1

7th November 2012, 09:44

mindless arguments instead of constructive debating

most threads at some stage deteriorate to mindless argument. We need more constructive mass debating as a group sort of like a mutual group satisfaction to signify the end of a thread.....or are we already there?

Banditbandit

7th November 2012, 09:52

most threads at some stage deteriorate to mindless argument. We need more constructive mass debating as a group sort of like a mutual group satisfaction to signify the end of a thread.....or are we already there?

We're there already ... been there for a couple of days

007XX

7th November 2012, 09:58

Not in the slightest. But I'm not him.What if you hit it off big time, you leave hubby to have Akzel bounce his nads on your chin every day. But one day you get too toothy and he starts to hate you. In this scenario, he might hope you choke...Just sayin.

See, I'm sure this type of scenario actually plays out in the lives of a lot of people. In fact, I can see it happening all around me pretty much on a daily basis. Each to their own.

But it doesn't happen in my world. You don't just " hit it off" and leave. Once you make that commitment to the right person, you fucking stay there and keep your promises.

The hate and chocking part, that was my first marriage. I was 19 and I learned a lot.

Don't presume to project on what my life might be when you have no idea about my moral ethos. Just sayin.

most threads at some stage deteriorate to mindless argument. We need more constructive mass debating as a group sort of like a mutual group satisfaction to signify the end of a thread.....or are we already there?

Maybe we need to bring in a hand signal, like the one in Team America...

Banditbandit

7th November 2012, 10:38

Maybe we need to bring in a hand signal, like the one in Team America...

Yes . this one .. It's the KB mass debate sign ... :tugger:

(excuse the pun)

BoristheBiter

7th November 2012, 10:40

See, I'm sure this type of scenario actually plays out in the lives of a lot of people. In fact, I can see it happening all around me pretty much on a daily basis. Each to their own.

But it doesn't happen in my world. You don't just " hit it off" and leave. Once you make that commitment to the right person, you fucking stay there and keep your promises.

The hate and chocking part, that was my first marriage. I was 19 and I learned a lot.

Don't presume to project on what my life might be when you have no idea about my moral ethos. Just sayin.

Maybe we need to bring in a hand signal, like the one in Team America...

How about this?

http://www.remnantofgod.org/NaziRCC/Hitler&Church.jpg

skippa1

7th November 2012, 10:48

Yes . this one .. It's the KB mass debate sign ... :tugger:

(excuse the pun)

hey....I claim rights to the pun first:girlfight: maybe we could mutually mass debate the claim of exclusivity..........on second thoughts, that would be gay

mashman

7th November 2012, 11:15

Nice. Thanks for formatting that so I can read it.

If I had have know that all it would take is a bullet point list to get my "position" across, I would have added more examples.

So, somewhere back there, we had you calling people as a whole, Sheeple.

That is a term that absolutely grates me.

I feel it makes us sound as if we weren't a collection of different beings and that's not true, so I lobbed back that clearly, you hadn't interacted with all types of society.

I see no reason for me to change that position. The fact that it irks you some is a bonus, but I guess that's the point of using the term. Take this discussion fr'instance. I'm not a member of your society in the green corner. Yes you are whether you like it or not in the blue corner. The blue corner herding to defend their position because it is the most commonly and socially accepted version of the argument. Baaaaaaaa I say to them. I get what he's talking about, mostly. Hopefully you'll read that as, attaining Sheepleness is contextual.

I maintained to you, that human nature is the barrier to your utopia; that you can't pre-package people.

That we have always been this way, we may have been the other way for a few minutes in the scale of time, that we have evolved but, essentially we stay the same, you maintain that human nature is a collection of individuals, do you see where that ended up, where we agreed?

As I said earlier, people can remain exactly the same, they don't need to change, they don't need to be pre-packaged (advertising and marketing would probably beg to differ with you). A change in "human nature" is not required for "my" utopia, so it's not barrier. Sure there will be a percentage that will say no, just as I'm here saying no to your "utopia". Take the money away and another facet of "human nature" will prevail.

I maintain that human nature (disagreed) doesn't truly exist because we are individuals (agreed) and we all make choices that defy our individual "human nature". Given the situation of meeting imdying: He has decided that given a certain set of circumstances he'll be worried that I'll kill him for his blanky and may well kill me before thinking about the positives that could come from our union. Given that situation I will make a different choice to him given the circumstances. Akzle will make a different choice based on his perception, 007 will troll the fuck out of him and end up on her knees one way or another, Drew will be too busy wondering which order the following will occur, kill him first, get laid or eat him. Human nature is situational. Having said that, all of us will have made a different decision, yet tomorrow I could be taking Drews position, you could take Akzle's, Drew could be watching imdying and 007 swap places. As we react differently to different situations on different days in different circumstances, but with the same fundamental choice, it would highlight to me that somewhere along the lines we'd be going against our human nature. With that in mind, what's your definition of human nature? "You can't pre-package people" and "human nature" seem to contradict each other.

Now, something happened the other night where you either popped a vein or you had a wee drinky drinky, or whatever.
I just couldn't read the wall of un formatted text. I felt sorry for you, because I could tell there may have been some enlightening, but I couldn't participate, too much hard work.

The following is a pre-prepared post from the other night, before I gave up:

You question the human nature "argument" I did call it an argument, I'll apologise and re-name it an "intelligent debate" with dips and peaks.
Riddle me this and these are just off the top of my head and Wikipedia...

...snipped list of questions and reasons...

I find it amusing that walls of text on a forum are frowned upon, where just about every paper, book, article etc... have walls of text explaining a "position". Granted my command of language is poor and my linking of subject matter may hop, skip and jump after a full stop and I'll do my damndest to address that, but I wouldn't hold your breath... so you can keep your pity woman. You need it more than I, baaaaaa. There's no pre-requisite for people to read it and I'll happily try to clarify where I can.

In answer to your questions: every reason you have highlighted and many many many more can be attributed as to why a person does anything. I guess that's why we have a judicial system so that we can decipher why, look up the appropriate categorisation and apply the punishment.

...snipped disorder n datorder...

Luckily there's the rest of society, I'm not going to bother defining normal, there is no normal, only a scale of normality!

Whatever you do, you can't ever balance equality. NONE of the above examples have to do with money, it's human nature, we evolve, but we stay the same.

Strangely enough, I had my listener mag open at an article I hadn't read yet when I logged off here last night.

No where near as in depth, but same view.

People huh?

I've met a few people who have been diagnosed with some of those disorders and by using those definitions I'm sure some psychoanalyst would label me with about half of them, wrongly imho, but they are the expert and I wouldn't get a lookin because that would be denial.

Heh, normal. There must be a definition for normal if you have a definition for OCD etc...

Most of the above are also done because of money (you can read it in the papers every day). Granted not all but: Bully to make money in the playground (office, marketplace), frustrations of a "poor" household leading to violence, financially based crimes leading to violence (few threads on here about that), teenagers selling the clothes they nick, rape through forced prostitution etc... We'd have a much better chance of evolving if we could get rid of value and the associated financial system. We all change and seldom stay the same, circumstance forces us to do this... why not remove the most obvious mechanism for "crime" and inequality if the result takes you back to that moment in time you spoke of earlier? (but with technology and a better understanding of how to do things under yer belt?). Human nature does not explain why this does not happen. If you break your arm do you leave it? If you lose your credit card, do you contact the bank? If people are dying etc... why would you let it happen if you can print the very thing that can save them?

Never heard of the listener mag.

Aye, we're a complicated bunch of scamps.

But that's the point you explain what you mean Mashedpotatoman just sounds like a troll.

I want to be Akzle so bad right now :crybaby:

I got practice, but thanks ever so much for you worrying about my welfare. Been on here long enough to know when a thread has gone past its point of interest by means of mindless arguments instead of constructive debating.

Sword swallower? You're welcome... I'd miss the avatar. Don't let the door smack you on yer way oot... safety first.

Banditbandit

7th November 2012, 12:32

hey....I claim rights to the pun first:girlfight: maybe we could mutually mass debate the claim of exclusivity..........on second thoughts, that would be gay

Yes ... it's yours all right ... I suppose I should have asked to be excused for repeating it ... and I won't stop you being gay - just don't expect me to join in ..

skippa1

7th November 2012, 12:38

Yes ... it's yours all right ... I suppose I should have asked to be excused for repeating it ... and I won't stop you being gay - just don't expect me to join in ..

its only gay if you push back you know:pinch:

Banditbandit

7th November 2012, 12:45

its only gay if you push back you know:pinch:

:facepalm:

007XX

7th November 2012, 13:24

Blah blah blah... Waxing on waxing off...just plain waxing really.

You do love the sound of your own voice, don't you?

Please do keep fascinating us with your almighty word on what is, Oh Mushman! :not:

mashman

7th November 2012, 13:33

You do love the sound of your own voice, don't you?

Please do keep fascinating us with your almighty word on what is, Oh Mushman! :not:

Hell yeah.

Ok then.

schrodingers cat

7th November 2012, 13:55

Thing I have learnt on the te interwebz forums...

1. People have different points of view

2. Some people do not want to ever question their point of view

2a. The people in point 2 seem to have a lot of time on their hands

2b. The people in point 2 seem reluctant to accept point 1

3. Logic is powerless in the face of obduracy

mashman

7th November 2012, 14:05

schrodingers cat

7th November 2012, 14:08

Before I answer, please refer to point 3

In answer to your question, point one

Before answering, please refer to point 3

mashman

7th November 2012, 15:08

Before I answer, please refer to point 3

In answer to your question, point one

Before answering, please refer to point 3

Cheers... but I don't think of you as a point 3, chillax bru

Drew

7th November 2012, 15:34

Don't presume to project on what my life might be when you have no idea about my moral ethos. Just sayin.

I presented an hypothetical situation, that was in no way unrealistic in contemporary society. I presumed not one thing about you, or anyone else.

Still...Must try harder.

3. Logic is powerless in the face of obduracyHow in the name of all fuck, would you bloody know that?

schrodingers cat

7th November 2012, 15:49

How in the name of all fuck, would you bloody know that?

The question is, how would I ever prove it? :brick:

Drew

7th November 2012, 15:52

The question is, how would I ever prove it? :brick:

Quite the quandry indeed.

Akzle

7th November 2012, 16:30

By definition, you are a part of our society. You may or may not agree with teh standards and laws of our society but saave from physically removing yourself from it you must remain part of it. Not recognising the authority of the society does not mean you are not part of it as regardless, you are subject to its rules and will be dealt with by them.

no, dumbass. the legal definition for society is kicking around here somewhere. that's the definition we're using.

that's like me calling you a moose, by defining moose as some god-bothering twat who hangs 'round KB. doesn't work like that.

But that's the point you explain what you mean Mashedpotatoman just sounds like a troll.
you sound like a troll.

//
now i'm all confused. who's giving me head?

Drew

7th November 2012, 16:33

now i'm all confused. who's giving me head?It would seem I'm afraid, that the postition for your head giver, is still open.

scumdog

7th November 2012, 16:50

One of the best posts by anybody on this thread...most others I could happily slot into PD.

'Somebody' seems to disagree with me regarding that post!:crazy: (and one or two others)

BUT: I just lurrrv the ignore function - you can take away the festering boil on your arkse with it.:killingme:laugh::rofl:

And your rep look SO much better when it's all green:woohoo::clap::2thumbsup

Akzle

7th November 2012, 16:57

:tugger:

I disagree with you. you don't contribute shit to this society (KB) or society at large. gtfo my thread.
homo.

Edbear

7th November 2012, 17:22

I disagree with you. you don't contribute shit to this society (KB) or society at large. gtfo my thread.
homo.

"Your thread?" You do amuse us so... Methinks you take yourself far too seriously. You may be important to yourself but to some here you are merely a sideshow for amusement.

Drew

7th November 2012, 17:27

"Your thread?" You do amuse us so... Methinks you take yourself far too seriously. You may be important to yourself but to some here you are merely a sideshow for amusement.
Hmmmm, who is taking him seriously with this post then?

Edbear

7th November 2012, 17:35

Hmmmm, who is taking him seriously with this post then?

Are you serious..?

Drew

7th November 2012, 17:47

Are you serious..?Seriously?

Edbear

7th November 2012, 18:05

Seriously?

'Slongas you are not serially serious it's okay I guess. The serially serious seriously need to get a life! :yes:

mashman

7th November 2012, 18:07

'Slongas you are not serially serious it's okay I guess. The serially serious seriously need to get a life! :yes:

Or a serious religion.

Akzle

7th November 2012, 19:31

'Slongas you are not serially serious it's okay I guess. The serially serious seriously need to get a life! :yes:

stfu, moose.

ps, see the title therr... for Akzle. me. mine. for me. woopwoop! :woohoo:

BoristheBiter

8th November 2012, 05:57

you sound like a troll.

Glad to see you have the sound turned up moose

BoristheBiter

8th November 2012, 05:58

stfu, moose.

ps, see the title therr... for Akzle. me. mine. for me. woopwoop! :woohoo:

I wouldn't be that happy about it.
It's a thread saying what a nob you are.

Genestho

8th November 2012, 06:15

If I had have know that all it would take is a bullet point list to get my "position" across, I would have added more examples.

Is that what I wrote? What we're doing here is formatting, FYI. It assists with meaningful communication on teh interwebs.
This is how we roll when we want to write 2000 word novels, you're welcome. :niceone:

I see no reason for me to change that position. The fact that it irks you some is a bonus, but I guess that's the point of using the term. Take this discussion fr'instance. I'm not a member of your society in the green corner. Yes you are whether you like it or not in the blue corner. The blue corner herding to defend their position because it is the most commonly and socially accepted version of the argument. Baaaaaaaa I say to them. I get what he's talking about, mostly. Hopefully you'll read that as, attaining Sheepleness is contextual.

Yep, so you agree a few posts back now you just disagree again? :wacko: Funny!

Actually - No. I haven't made my position clear, I've given you things to think about to test you, there's another way I think possible, that actually isn't a theory

As I said earlier, people can remain exactly the same, they don't need to change, they don't need to be pre-packaged (advertising and marketing would probably beg to differ with you). A change in "human nature" is not required for "my" utopia, so it's not barrier. Sure there will be a percentage that will say no, just as I'm here saying no to your "utopia". Take the money away and another facet of "human nature" will prevail.

Yeah "sure, a percentage will say no" because Occupy in New Zealand attracted a huge percentage of yes's, right? And on the first birthday what happened in New Zealand, last month? Zip, Zilch, Nada.

As an aside - I spent some of yesterday observing and dealing with some rather nasty facets of human nature that had nothing to do with money, really.

I maintain that human nature (disagreed) doesn't truly exist because we are individuals (agreed) and we all make choices that defy our individual "human nature". Etc
Lol, weeeeeeeeeeee circles!:drinkup:

I find it amusing that walls of text on a forum are frowned upon, where just about every paper, book, article etc... have walls of text explaining a "position". Granted my command of language is poor and my linking of subject matter may hop, skip and jump after a full stop and I'll do my damndest to address that, but I wouldn't hold your breath... so you can keep your pity woman. You need it more than I, baaaaaa. There's no pre-requisite for people to read it and I'll happily try to clarify where I can.

Frowned upon? Trust me, I find it amusing that you'd compare literature this way.. if you want to compare your interweb writing to a book, paper or article then write like it aye, if you wrote a book the way you wrote the "I've popped a vein" post, you won't get published, though I'm sure you're not at all seeking publication, so it matters not, it's your comparison only.

I've met a few people who have been diagnosed with some of those disorders and by using those definitions I'm sure some psychoanalyst would label me with about half of them, wrongly imho, but they are the expert and I wouldn't get a lookin because that would be denial.

Hehe:whistle:

Heh, normal. There must be a definition for normal if you have a definition for OCD etc...

Oh deary me, this is pointless, at least I know it.
If you're so sure about what you preach. Get off your arse and change the world, I'll say it again; lead by example instead of freaken typing and whinging about it, don't blame money or time - when there's will there's a way, I get sick of apathy and keyboard warriors - there's some crazy advice for you!

I do not agree with your "position" or theory, although agree and have said it some where before in this quagmire that things could change, but I simply don't agree with your theory.
So thus, there's nothing more to say from me, I don't do circles.

By all means if something convinces me otherwise and I find I agree with your theory, I'll be sure to let you know. :yes:
But until then..

I will keep helping my fellow man, doing things in reality.
Have yourself a goody. ;)

Edbear

8th November 2012, 07:00

stfu, moose.

ps, see the title therr... for Akzle. me. mine. for me. woopwoop! :woohoo:

I wouldn't be that happy about it.
It's a thread saying what a nob you are.

Subtle... :rolleyes:

Banditbandit

8th November 2012, 08:11

stfu, moose.

ps, see the title therr... for Akzle. me. mine. for me. woopwoop! :woohoo:

Errr . the thread, which I started, had your name in the title so it grabbed your attention ... it was meant as a space for us to discuss your political/legal stance ... I believe we have done that ... and I wonder why the thread continues ... It seems to have gained a life of its own ..

Banditbandit

8th November 2012, 08:15

3. Logic is powerless in the face of obduracy

How in the name of all fuck, would you bloody know that?

The question is, how would I ever prove it? :brick:

I think the discussion itself proves it ... You're being obdurate Drew. :lol:

skippa1

8th November 2012, 08:53

"Your thread?" You do amuse us so... Methinks you take yourself far too seriously. You may be important to yourself but to some here you are merely a sideshow for amusement.

said the clown

mashman

8th November 2012, 08:58

If I had have know that all it would take is a bullet point list to get my "position" across, I would have added more examples.

Is that what I wrote? What we're doing here is formatting, FYI. It assists with meaningful communication on teh interwebs.
This is how we roll when we want to write 2000 word novels, you're welcome.

Frowned upon? Trust me, I find it amusing that you'd compare literature this way.. if you want to compare your interweb writing to a book, paper or article then write like it aye, if you wrote a book the way you wrote the "I've popped a vein" post, you won't get published, though I'm sure you're not at all seeking publication, so it matters not, it's your comparison only.

I'm sure it does. Some of us aren't very good at it and some frown upon that by popping a vein instead of accepting what's in front of them making the effort.

Actually - No. I haven't made my position clear, I've given you things to think about to test you, there's another way I think possible, that actually isn't a theory

Which non-theory would that be?

Yeah "sure, a percentage will say no" because Occupy in New Zealand attracted a huge percentage of yes's, right? And on the first birthday what happened in New Zealand, last month? Zip, Zilch, Nada.

As an aside - I spent some of yesterday observing and dealing with some rather nasty facets of human nature that had nothing to do with money, really.

I too was disappointed with the direction taken by Occupy, but I still admire them for what they did.

I agree that not everything has to do with money directly... but we create an environment to a budget i.e. close special needs schools, disguard the wayward kids, put people in the pressure cooker of making every cent count etc... and end up scratching our heads as to why we have a budget society.

Oh deary me, this is pointless, at least I know it.
If you're so sure about what you preach. Get off your arse and change the world, I'll say it again; lead by example instead of freaken typing and whinging about it, don't blame money or time - when there's will there's a way, I get sick of apathy and keyboard warriors - there's some crazy advice for you!

I do not agree with your "position" or theory, although agree and have said it some where before in this quagmire that things could change, but I simply don't agree with your theory.
So thus, there's nothing more to say from me, I don't do circles.

By all means if something convinces me otherwise and I find I agree with your theory, I'll be sure to let you know.
But until then..

I will keep helping my fellow man, doing things in reality
Have yourself a goody.

It's not pointless for me but I appreciate your contribution. I wish I could say that you had offered me something new to think about, but you haven't.
:rofl: I'll get there.

Furry muff.

Having come from your side of the fence and having validated the arguments for that side of the fence and talked myself into the grass is greener, I'm highly unlikely to go back. No one has been able to convince me otherwise... and as I have already been on your side of the fence, I have proven that I am open to new ideas and a change of mind.

Onya lass.
You have a better one :yes: