Middle East

[Edbear]

What's your pick?

[MSTRS]

Bomb the fuckers into submission. Or complete annihilation. ALL of them.

[Edbear]

Bomb the fuckers into submission. Or complete annihilation. ALL of them.

I did think it rather funny that Hamas said Israel started it. Like they weren't doing anything by launching continuous rocket attacks for months...

[scott411]

I did think it rather funny that Hamas said Israel started it. Like they weren't doing anything by launching continuous rocket attacks for months...

I think they ment they started it when they invaded in 1948, or extended thier territory in 1967, or maybe the continued blackade of the Gaza Strip, Not that i really think launching rockets really makes it any better, and I would not want to live next door to people that hate me either (and that goes for both sides)

A heap of people way smarter than me have tried to make peace work here, can't really see it working this time either,

[Road kill]

I did think it rather funny that Hamas said Israel started it. Like they weren't doing anything by launching continuous rocket attacks for months...

Do a bit of reading on the situation and it looks more like the Mongrel mob throwing rocks at cars and then "you" getting the shit kicked out of you because you happened to live on the same road.

And No,,,it's not kind of funny at all.

[Edbear]

When people are taught to hate from birth for several generations, words like, "reason" and "logic" are meaningless.

It really stems from 1948 but the history of the area goes back thousands of years and hatred is the inherent way of the nations involved.

My son-in-law is an Israeli and gives a good insight into the Middle East issues.

[HenryDorsetCase]

i couldnt give a fuck about silly pricks rehashing stupid conflicts from the Bronze age based on corrupt religious practices and what their imaginary friends in the sky tell them what to do. Religion is power politics and is corrupt and hateful in all its forms and should be derided as such by civilised persons. It is the root cause of most of the problems on the planet.

Sure I feel sorry for the "civilians" and the little kids that get killed but ultimately all that does is breed the next generation of fundy fuckwits.

The Ripley solution is the only way forward.


aCbfMkh940Q

[Edbear]

The thing is, the Middle East is all religiously based, no separation of religion and state as in the Western world. Their culture and heritage is their religion. My son-in-law could not enter politics as he is not a Jew.

[mashman]

I'm still going for the US. It isn't the people who start wars, it's the leaders. Fuckin idiots.

[Swoop]

20 November, 2012: Israel has bought seven batteries of Iron Dome anti-rocket missiles. Four are in action and a fifth one entered service several weeks early (on November 17) because of the major rocket assault Hamas and other Islamic terror groups in Gaza launched on November 14th. Over 500 rockets were launched during the first two days, but then the number began to decline. On Saturday (the 17th) 230 rockets were fired, with only 156 on Saturday, and 121 on Monday. While the Palestinians have fired over a thousand rockets into Israel so far, and killed three Israelis, their effort is faltering and the Israeli response is not. Few of the rockets landed in occupied areas. That’s because Iron Dome has been able to detect and destroy 90 percent of the rockets that were going to land in an area containing people. The Israeli military says they have shot down over 300 rockets so far.
Iron Dome uses two radars to quickly calculate the trajectory of the incoming rocket and do nothing if the rocket trajectory indicates it is going to land in an uninhabited area. But if the computers predict a rocket coming down in an inhabited area, guided missiles are fired to intercept the rocket. This makes the system cost-effective. That's because Hezbollah fired 4,000 rockets in 2006, and Palestinian terrorists in Gaza have fired over six thousand rockets in the past eight years and the Israelis know where each of them landed. Over 90 percent of these rockets landed in uninhabited areas, and few of those that did hit inhabited areas caused casualties. Israel already has a radar system in place that gives some warning of approaching rockets. Iron Dome uses that system, in addition to another, more specialized, radar in southern Israel.

The Palestinians had been making and breaking ceasefire deals for years but threw away all pretense of making peace after one of the Israeli retaliatory air strikes killed the head of Hamas military operations. Israel had threatened to resume its missile attacks against Hamas leaders if the rocket and mortar attacks on southern Israel did not stop. So on the 14th Israel began shooting at Hamas leaders again and Hamas decided it was time for a major attack against Israel, if only to protect the terrorist group leadership.

Five years ago an Israeli campaign against key terrorist personnel severely restricted the movements of Hamas leaders and forced the terrorist group to agree to a ceasefire. But that deal has fallen apart now because Hamas would not control the smaller Islamic terror groups who continued to attack Israel. Now that Israel has resumed its attacks on all terrorist leaders in Gaza, Hamas is screaming “war crimes” (and getting some support in the West), but the resumption of these attacks appears to be the only thing that can get the Hamas leadership to keep their word. On the down side, the smaller Islamic terror groups in Gaza have become larger and now threaten civil war and the possibility of Hamas rule ending (to be replaced by an even worse crew of Islamic radicals). The only other Israeli option is a ground campaign, like the one in 2009. But that risks more Israeli casualties. Israel does not want to send in ground troops, as this will lead to more Israeli deaths. But the ground operation is obviously an option given the large force of Israeli troops and armored vehicles now gathered at the Gaza border.

Since Hamas is a big believer in using civilians as human shields (often against their will), a ground campaign would get a lot more Palestinians killed. So the attacks against specific terrorist leaders are seen as the better option. Even this risks civilian casualties because Hamas puts its government and military facilities in residential neighborhoods. It has also, on the advice of its Hezbollah advisors, built rocket launchers near mosques, schools, hospitals, and residences. The Israelis have distributed lots of videos of Palestinian rockets being fired in this way. Still, most Arab and some Western media keep maintaining that Israel is at fault for defending itself or simply existing.

This latest war with the Palestinians has been a major test for the Iron Dome system. Each battery has radar and control equipment and four missile launchers. Each battery costs about $37 million, which includes over fifty Tamir missiles (costing $40,000 each). In the two years before this month Iron Dome had intercepted over 100 rockets headed for populated areas. In the last week Iron Dome has intercepted at least another 300 rockets.

The Palestinians are believed to have tried to defeat Iron Dome by firing a lot of long range missiles simultaneously at a few cities. In theory this could overwhelm one or two Iron Dome batteries. But Israel is keeping 24/7 UAV watch on Gaza and have so far spotted attempts at large scale simultaneous launchers and bombed many of the launch sites. This has resulted in many rockets destroyed on the ground or launching erratically and landing within Gaza or nowhere near where they were aimed. Because Iron Dome can track hundreds of incoming missiles, quickly plot their trajectory and likely landing spot, and ignore the majority that will not land near people, the Palestinians have to put hundreds of larger (long range) missiles into the air at the same time to be sure of causing lots of Israeli casualties. So far the Palestinians have been unable to get enough rockets into the air at the same time and at the rate Israeli aircraft are bombing Hamas rocket storage sites (and setting off secondary explosions of the rockets to confirm the hit), the Palestinians will be out of rockets in another week or so.

Earlier this month Israel successfully completed tests of new software for its Iron Dome anti-rocket system. The improvements enable the Iron Dome missiles to intercept incoming rockets farther away. The 90 kg (200 pound) three meter (9.8 foot) long Tamir missiles use a proximity fuze to detonate near the incoming rocket.

The Palestinian rocket attacks have been around since 2001, but got much worse once Israel pulled out of Gaza in August of 2005. This was a peace gesture that backfired. From 2001 to 2005, about 700 rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel. Since the 2005 withdrawal, over 5,000 more rockets were fired into Israel. The rate of firings increased after Hamas took control of Gaza in June, 2007.

Hamas has been bringing in more factory made Iranian and Chinese made BM-21 and BM-12 rockets. Israel believes Hamas currently has, in Gaza, factory-made BM-21 rockets, each with a range of 20-40 kilometers. They also have some shorter range (six kilometers) Russian designed B-12 rockets. The 122mm BM-21s weigh 68.2 kg (150 pounds) and are 2.9 meters (nine feet) long. These have 20.5 kg (45 pound) warheads but not much better accuracy than the 107mm model. However, these larger rockets have a maximum range of 20 kilometers. Again, because they are unguided, they are only effective if fired in salvos or at large targets (like cities, large military bases, or industrial complexes). There are Egyptian and Chinese variants that have smaller warheads and larger rocket motors, giving them a range of about 40 kilometers. Israel believes there are dozens of Iranian Fajr rockets, with a range of 70 kilometers, plus several hundred extended-range (40 kilometers) 122mm rockets, and even more standard range (20 kilometers) 122mm rockets in Gaza. There are believed to be over 10,000 rockets stored in Gaza. Iron Dome was designed to detect and hit those with a range of 10 kilometers or more, as these could reach more heavily populated areas of Israel. While Hamas always hinted at negotiating an extended ceasefire with Israel, it still maintained that the ultimate goal is the destruction of Israel

14 November, 2012: Israel has threatened to resume its missile attacks against Hamas leaders if the rocket and mortar attacks on southern Israel do not stop. Five years ago such a campaign severely restricted the movements of Hamas leaders and forced the terrorist group to agree to a ceasefire. But that deal fell apart because Hamas would not control the smaller Islamic terror groups who continued to attack Israel. If Israel resumes its attacks on all terrorist leaders in Gaza, Hamas will scream “war crimes” (and get some support in the West), but the resumption of these attacks appears to be the only thing that can get the Hamas leadership to keep their word. On the down side, the smaller Islamic terror groups in Gaza have become larger and now threaten civil war and the possibility of Hamas rule ending (to be replaced by an even worse crew of Islamic radicals). The only other Israeli option is a ground campaign, like the one in 2009. But that risks more Israeli casualties. Since Hamas is a big believer in using civilians as human shields (often against their will), a ground campaign would get a lot more Palestinians killed. So the attacks against specific terrorist leaders is seen as the better option. Retaliation against Israeli leaders is not considered a major problem since Palestinian terrorists are constantly trying to kill Israeli leaders. Ceasefires clearly doesn’t work, as the Palestinians break them every time. But some ceasefires last longer than others, and those tend to be the ones where the terrorist leaders are pledging their lives, not just their word.
On the Syrian border stray mortar shells continue to fall on the Israeli side. This has prompted Israeli troops to fire back at Syrian artillery and mortar crews that can be seen from Israel. The Syrians don’t want to start a war with Israel but they don’t want to lose control of this part of the border to the rebels.

The UN has condemned Hezbollah for sending a UAV into Israel on October 6th. Hezbollah complained that the UN was picking on them and being unfair. Hezbollah also denies it has had anything to do with bomb attacks in Bahrain.

13 November, 2012: Only two rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel today. That makes at least 120 fired since the 10th when the current round of Gaza attacks began. Now the Islamic terrorists are asking for a ceasefire. The rockets have done little damage in Israel, in large part because Israeli radars supply warning of rocket attacks and the Iron Dome system shoots down any rockets headed for inhabited areas. Every time the Gaza terrorists fire rockets into Israel there is retaliation, usually involving air and/or artillery attacks. Despite terrorists deliberately placing their bases in residential neighborhoods, most of the casualties are terrorists.

11 November, 2012: For the first time in 39 years Israeli troops fired into Syria, in response to more Syrian mortar shells landing in Israel.

10 November, 2012: Islamic terrorists in Gaza fired a guided missile at an Israeli army vehicle patrolling the border fence. This wounded four soldiers and Israel responded with artillery and air attacks that killed seven Palestinians and wounded 30. Many Islamic terrorist sites were hit, destroying weapons and other equipment.

9 November, 2012: Two Palestinian rockets landed in southern Israel.

8 November, 2012: An Israeli soldier was wounded when a bomb under the border fence was set off by Palestinian terrorists. That explosion revealed an even larger tunnel, packed with explosives, deeper underground.

Egyptian security forces are seeking out these tunnels more aggressively and destroying them. That’s because the tunnels are used to support terrorist attacks in Egypt.

6 November, 2012: Two Israeli soldiers were wounded by a terrorist bomb set off near the Gaza border fence.

[Swoop]

I'm still going for the US. It isn't the people who start wars

The USA was late in showing up for WW1 & WW2.

[mashman]

The USA was late in showing up for WW1 & WW2.

They just wanted an invite was all. They were polite back in the day :shifty:

[scissorhands]

2012's not over yet, still time to slag of the Mayans

[Road kill]

When people are taught to hate from birth for several generations, words like, "reason" and "logic" are meaningless.

It really stems from 1948 but the history of the area goes back thousands of years and hatred is the inherent way of the nations involved.

My son-in-law is an Israeli and gives a good insight into the Middle East issues.

Some how I thought there'd be a catch:rolleyes:

[Laava]

When people are taught to hate from birth for several generations, words like, "reason" and "logic" are meaningless..

Agreed. The difference between the islamics and christians is about 200 years i reckon.

Step back, let them go for it and then go in and claim whatever is left.

Laavaland sounds good!

[Nova.]

bomb them all, their just little rats anyway.

[Maki]

Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces. Total: 6569

Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians. Total: 754

http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/Casualties.asp


This is what happens when you give something that is not yours to give.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

The Balfour Declaration (dated 2 November 1917) was a letter from the United Kingdom's Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Baron Rothschild (Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland.

His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.[1]


This was the price the UK payed for US involvement in WWI and the victory in that war. The price Germany payed for defeat brought on by this was insane reparations that led to the rise of Hitler, Nazism and the prosecution and genocide of Jews. The people in the middle east are STILL paying the price for this insanity.


There was a time in WWI, around Christmas, when soldiers of the warring nations lay their arms down, met, played soccer, sang songs and saw each other for what they really were, just human beings. Too bad they did not lay down their guns permanently, go home and get on with their lives and not listen to the madmen who insisted that they kept slaughtering their brothers. How much misery could have been avoided if they had just gone home...

[mashman]

Laavaland sounds good!

No it doesn't. It sounds like a description of hell.

[Akzle]

how about. not your problem. leave it the hell alone.

[Edbear]

bomb them all, their just little rats anyway.

A lot of the population on both sides is very well educated and integrated with the West, there are many innocents caught in the middle and who have no love for Hamas and the religious fanatics. The issue facing Israel, is how to deal with Hamas and the other radical groups without hurting the innocents who want nothing to do with the conflict.

My daughter and son-in-law visited Israel recently and Rudy and his family there, showed Jenni around most of the country. We had reservations about her going but she found the people fantastic, warm, well educated in English, they loved hearing about NZ as many are familiar with NZ, and apart from the Orthodox Jews, very open and friendly. Rudy did make sure they avoided getting too close to Gaza, and they weren't allowed into Jordan.

The general population is alert to the instability and security is tight everywhere, but they roamed the streets freely at night and were much safer there than in just about any NZ city after dark. In fact they went everywhere in full security and never felt unsafe at any time.

As always it is never plain and simple.

[Edbear]

how about. not your problem. leave it the hell alone.

Not much we can do anyway, but if you think it is not "öur problem" you need to study a bit more about how integrated the world is and NZ is not immune.

[onearmedbandit]

Israel for the win, they've got the better toys.

[martybabe]

I parked my Truck late one night down a dimly lit street in Manchester England. I wasn't familiar with the area but was due a smoko so I sandwiched up and settled in for a bit.
A short while later my Truck was surrounded by people dressed in black, literally hundreds of them swarming past, all dressed the same, little black hats, long coats and all sporting ridiculous kiss curls poking from under their hats.

I had by chance parked up just as the largest sinagogue? in the world emptied out for the night. Despite being heavily outnumbered and a long way from home, at no time did I feel threatened and not one of them did an air strike on me, they all filed by muttering giberish or hushed with very noddy heads.

I can only sumise from this incident, that orthodox Jews are very peaceful people that do a lot of drugs. Therefore it must be the tea-total palestinians that are causing all the trouble, simple.

Glad I could clear up this age old problem for you.

Really, the problem is, people are stupid, we like to think we are not but we are. Stupid stupid people that kill others because they have differenf beliefs. Religion, ethnicity, sex, Holden Ford, football are all worth killing for eh. If it wasn't for Kylie Minogue I would despair for humanity.

[Maki]

I can only sumise from this incident, that orthodox Jews are very peaceful people that do a lot of drugs. Therefore it must be the tea-total palestinians that are causing all the trouble, simple.



Orthodox Jews are clever people, and I mean that in the best possible sense.

"WHY ORTHODOX JEWS ARE OPPOSED TO A ZIONIST STATE"

"The People of Israel oppose the so-called "State of Israel" for four reasons:

FIRST -- The so-called "State of Israel" is diametrically opposed and completely contradictory to the true essence and foundation of the People of Israel, as is explained above."

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm


From all this, how do you reckon that the people who were displaced from their homes are "causing all the trouble"?

[martybabe]

Orthodox Jews are clever people, and I mean that in the best possible sense.

"WHY ORTHODOX JEWS ARE OPPOSED TO A ZIONIST STATE"

"The People of Israel oppose the so-called "State of Israel" for four reasons:

FIRST -- The so-called "State of Israel" is diametrically opposed and completely contradictory to the true essence and foundation of the People of Israel, as is explained above."

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm


From all this, how do you reckon that the people who were displaced from their homes are "causing all the trouble"?

Aw mate, I was simplifying (with humour) a subject that is so complex that a solution may never be found, it is the ridiculousness of my statement that was supposed to bring some levity to an overwhelmingly complex and serious subject that will not be sorted out by KBiker in the next thousand years.

I'm a little dismayed that you didn't see that frankly.

[Laava]

No it doesn't. It sounds like a description of hell.

Yeah but i,d be better than David Cunliffe!

[Laava]

Aw mate, I was simplifying (with humour) a subject that is so complex that a solution may never be found, it is the ridiculousness of my statement that was supposed to bring some levity to an overwhelmingly complex and serious subject that will not be sorted out by KBiker in the next thousand years.

I'm a little dismayed that you didn't see that frankly.

They could "ickle ockle" for the territory?

[Usarka]

I can't remember who said it but I heard this the other day:

If someone throws rocks at you because you knocked down their house then they are not a terrorist.

[Maki]

I'm a little dismayed that you didn't see that frankly.

Me too, no worries. The point I made about the Orthodox Jews was worth making anyway. Not everyone realizes it.

[martybabe]

They could "ickle ockle" for the territory?

It's worth a try, apart from the (lets stop killing each other for a bit and try and sort this out) plan, maybe the best plan yet:msn-wink:

[martybabe]

Me too, no worries. The point I made about the Orthodox Jews was worth making anyway. Not everyone realizes it.

Onya, as it happens, I had the entire history of the region off my Daughter yesterday (religious studies at UNI). Man they ain't gonna resolve that over a beer or two at the bar eh.

[pete376403]

History repeats. Warsaw ghetto 1942. Gaza ghetto 2012.

[ellipsis]

...sand up yer arse and in your big eye all day... forever... would really fuck with my anger problems...what if we all... us somewhat more temperate climes, just sent them as much 'ready lawn' as they need...swap the shit for oil...win win...we grow the green shit...ship it to them constantly...they would all calm down and we could carry on trying to fit, even more silver jap suv's into more and more supermarket car parks...fuk'n sussed ay...

[HenryDorsetCase]

terrorist .

where did you cut and paste that from? presumably not Al Jazeera: they wouldnt call the Palestinians terrorists in every sentence.

Thats an example of something that, at face value, seems like reporting but is actually just propaganda.

So thanks for that.

The Ripley solution is looking better and better, right?

[HenryDorsetCase]

Onya, as it happens, I had the entire history of the region off my Daughter yesterday (religious studies at UNI). Man they ain't gonna resolve that over a beer or two at the bar eh.

indeed. so the sensible solution is to leave them the hell to it.

[Akzle]

Not much we can do anyway, but if you think it is not "öur problem" you need to study a bit more about how integrated the world is and NZ is not immune.

i said not YOUR problem.

presumptuous git. i don't need to study shit. (as reference, my uncle is palestinian.) and if NZ wasn't ruled by idiots, we would be immune.

[Edbear]

indeed. so the sensible solution is to leave them the hell to it.

Therein lies the problem. While we and much of the world sit back and observe, the power countries are inextricably linked to it. If Israel invades Gaza, may not go much further, but other simmering issues are interlinked, such as Syria, Iran, etc. Egypt wants in on the action, perhaps to divert attention from its internal strife and give its people something else to concern themselves with.

The old ploy of starting a war to re-establish a faltering regime is still considered effective and we have a situation where nearly all the rulerships are in trouble. Syria has proved this tactic to be a total mess if not handled right.

Israel is heavily dependent on the support of the US, of course, the Palestinian's are getting support from such as Iran, which brings China and Russia into the picture. Israel is very keen to find an excuse to attack Iran but Netanyahu wants to be seen as a moderator, as different from the radical elements like Hamas.

Gaza is providing an example of both Israel's military ability, and its political stability. Negotiating from a position of superior strength is advantageous but if Israel can gain the high ground politically it will garner much more support.

[Nova.]

the irony of the Gaza violence isn't lost on me: first, the NUMEROUS similarities between Arab and Jew. the Jewish prayer shawl and Arabic Keffiyeh are practically identical. the officials in power do not care about the common man. women and children are dead. Muslim and Jew. missiles don't discriminate. "There is no unity [of God] like the unity found in Islam" – Rabbi Joseph Messas, Mayim Hayyim. Judaism and Islam are both continuations of a much older religion. the Talmud records that after the Great Flood, Allah SWT established a religious framework with Noah AS for all of mankind to follow. monotheism existed before this time but man was not bound by any commandments. the people in control of this situation are not godly. this is all part of the Matrix. they're laughing at you. it's all part of a Satanic, Black Magic ritual. mind control and torture. it involves the Jesuits, Obama, Hillary Clinton, The United Nations, important leaders of Islam, Judaism, The Vatican, and The Black Pope. and, the more this sounds like the ramblings of a paranoid conspiracy theorist, the stronger their stranglehold becomes. it's brilliant, really. ride with them, and be a coward. oppose them, and die a martyr. than again, this ENTIRE shit storm is about martyrdom, isn't it? who is dumb enough to die for a people who don't care about you in the first place?

[Edbear]

i said not YOUR problem.

presumptuous git. i don't need to study shit. (as reference, my uncle is palestinian.) and if NZ wasn't ruled by idiots, we would be immune.

It is much easier to criticise and tell everyone they are gits or f-wits, but much less so to show by example how things should be done, or to get involved and be a force for change.

NZ was never going to be immune from the time people decided they wanted better lifestyles, better technology, medicine, travel and communication.

You are familiar with the adage, "No man is an island"? It is true of individual's and nations alike. You would not survive on your own, isolated on an island with no infrastructure save what you could make with your own hands from whatever raw material was available.

The most "primitive" isolated countries or people's all have a societal infrastructure to survive.

[Edbear]

the irony of the Gaza violence isn't lost on me: first, the NUMEROUS similarities between Arab and Jew. the Jewish prayer shawl and Arabic Keffiyeh are practically identical. the officials in power do not care about the common man. women and children are dead. Muslim and Jew. missiles don't discriminate. "There is no unity [of God] like the unity found in Islam" – Rabbi Joseph Messas, Mayim Hayyim. Judaism and Islam are both continuations of a much older religion. the Talmud records that after the Great Flood, Allah SWT established a religious framework with Noah AS for all of mankind to follow. monotheism existed before this time but man was not bound by any commandments. the people in control of this situation are not godly. this is all part of the Matrix. they're laughing at you. it's all part of a Satanic, Black Magic ritual. mind control and torture. it involves the Jesuits, Obama, Hillary Clinton, The United Nations, important leaders of Islam, Judaism, The Vatican, and The Black Pope. and, the more this sounds like the ramblings of a paranoid conspiracy theorist, the stronger their stranglehold becomes. it's brilliant, really. ride with them, and be a coward. oppose them, and die a martyr. than again, this ENTIRE shit storm is about martyrdom, isn't it? who is dumb enough to die for a people who don't care about you in the first place?

:laugh: :laugh: brilliant!

[SPman]

I don't like to sound cynical, but.......haven't the Israelis got elections shortly?

[Paul in NZ]

Well you cant fix that mess but there are lesson there...

The biggest being religious leaders or even people with strong religious beliefs should never ever be in charge of armies or countries. I'm all for religious tolerance and freedom of speech but the state and the church MUST be kept apart for free societies to flourish.

[Swoop]

21 November, 2012: No ceasefire yet and there may not be one until Hamas gets really desperate. Hamas wants a ceasefire but only on its own terms. That means there must be guarantees that Israel will not launch another attack against Hamas leadership. These “decapitation” attacks are the most effective way to destroy or disable a terrorist organization and in the last eight days at least one Hamas leader a day has been killed. Hamas thought it was immune to this sort of thing because it was the elected government of Gaza. But Hamas has turned into a dictatorship and banned any more elections. At the same time Hamas openly calls for war on Israel and the death or expulsion of all Jews from the region. Hamas now fears that Israel will treat them like all the other Islamic terror groups and keep coming after Hamas leadership. This would make it difficult to rule Gaza, and that is already becoming more of a problem as popular anger at Hamas increases (because of the harsh rule, rising taxes and no hope of it ever getting better). Israel wants some guarantees that the rocket attacks will cease. This Hamas does not want to guarantee that, in part because it cannot. Other Islamic terror groups in Gaza are openly challenging Hamas rule and Hamas has tried to avoid a civil war over the issue. This may be unavoidable because that’s how Islamic radicalism works. The less radical groups are attacked by the more radical and one side or the other must be destroyed. That’s how Middle Eastern politics works, especially since Turkish rule was ended in 1918. After that, tyrants, despots and dictators became the norm. At first outsiders were blamed, since taking responsibility was never a popular attitude in the Middle East. That has begun to change, but not among Palestinians.
In the last two decades a reform movement has arisen that is more realistic about the causes of all the grief. Despite that, traditions die hard and among the Palestinians the belief that Israel is the source of all evil is unshakable. Palestinians have called for the destruction of Israel for over 60 years and declared themselves above reproach for whatever they have done to hurt Israel. Thus Palestinian terrorism is simply self-defense as are the rocket attacks coming out of Gaza. Any violent Israeli response is a war crime. Many in the Middle East go along with this, as do some other UN members as well as leftists and journalists in the West. But the reality is that Israel is the only working democracy in the region and that form of government will respond to the popular will and act in its own defense. Israeli voters want an end to the growing rocket threat coming out of Gaza. If Hamas leaders want to live, they will have to cooperate or actually succeed in destroying Israel.

For the moment the Hamas leadership is scrambling to survive by surrounding themselves with human shields (Palestinian women and children) and increasing their efforts to keep hidden from Israeli intelligence. More Gaza residents are being accused of spying for Israel and being promptly executed. Hamas really isn’t sure who is spying for Israel, only that such spies do exist and report the location of Hamas leaders at every opportunity. Many of these spies are not working for Israel as much as they are fighting Hamas. While Hamas can still generate cheering crowds to celebrate the latest Hamas victory, most Gazans feel otherwise and quietly wish the Hamas leadership dead. On the plus side, Hamas gains more popularity among Palestinians, especially those in the West Bank and anywhere outside Gaza, for all these rocket attacks. This puts Fatah, the long-time ruling party in the Palestinian Authority (and still considered corrupt and ineffective) at a disadvantage. It was that reputation, and factionalism within Fatah, that allowed Hamas to win an election in Gaza five years ago. Since then Hamas has been trying, without success, to repeat that feat in the West Bank and take control of the Palestinian Authority.

The way situations like this work, Hamas plays the victim card as vigorously as it can until its foreign backers (Russia, China, and most Moslem countries) can muster enough pressure (via the UN) to coerce the U.S. into forcing Israel to accept a ceasefire. But this time that will only reduce the attacks. Israel is at war with the Hamas leadership and it’s unlikely that will end until Hamas is a headless mess. Israel hopes to eventually play the savior and king-maker in Gaza and get a more moderate government there. Many Palestinians agree with that scenario, but cannot admit it openly without risking death.

Up in Lebanon Hezbollah, which has four times as many Iranian rockets as Hamas, has not attacked, as it long said it would. The plan has always been for Hezbollah and Hamas to launch an attack on Israel, in conjunction with Iran and anyone else who could be persuaded to join in. This “final battle” would destroy Israel. But at the moment Hezbollah is distracted by severe economic problems in Iran (the result of an international ban on the sale of Iranian oil) and the two year old rebellion in Syria against the pro-Iran dictatorship. Hezbollah was founded with the help of Iranian cash and technical assistance, much of it delivered via Syria. Hezbollah also dominates the government of Lebanon and dragging the country into another war with Israel would be very unpopular. So Hezbollah cheers on its ally Hamas and ignores pleas for more tangible aid.

The Hamas rocket offensive has not worked out as planned. Partly this was due to the fact that the Israelis had pretty complete information (a lot of it made public) of Hamas preparations. This included the presence of longer range rockets, such as the extended range (40 kilometers) 122mm rockets (which normally have half that range) and up to a hundred of the .9 ton Iranian Fajr 5 rockets (range of 70 kilometers). Israel also appears to have known where most Hamas rockets were hidden. Hamas has some 10,000 rockets and in the last week most have been destroyed by Israeli air raids. Over 500 rockets were launched during the first two days, but then the number began to decline as Israeli air attacks killed the launch crews. On Saturday (the 17th) 230 rockets were fired, with only 156 on Sunday and 121 on Monday. Less than a hundred were fired on Tuesday and by dawn today only half a dozen had been fired. While the Palestinians have fired over a thousand rockets into Israel so far, and killed four Israeli civilians (plus a soldier killed by a mortar shell), their effort is faltering and the Israeli response is not. Few of the rockets landed in occupied areas. That’s because Iron Dome has been able to detect and destroy 90 percent of the rockets that were going to land in an area containing people. The Israelis military says they have shot down over 300 rockets so far and few rockets have done any damage, much less caused injuries. So far, about 140 Palestinians have been killed, at least a third of them civilians who were living near a Hamas facility (often a rocket storage site).

Hamas expected more support from the Arab world. While the failure of Hezbollah to help was not a shock, it was believed that Egyptian public opinion might persuade the new Egyptian government to do more than help arrange a ceasefire. While Egyptians have been exposed to decades of anti-Semitic and anti-Israel propaganda, anyone running the country quickly realizes that war with Israel is a losing proposition. Not just in the military sense, but in terms of foreign aid (which would be sharply cut if Egypt declared war on Israel.) The Hamas attack had little impact on the price of oil, which continues at its low ($88 a barrel) level. Hamas is also having trouble staying in touch with the residents of Gaza. Israeli electronic warfare units have hijacked radio and TV broadcasts and presented warning to Gaza civilians about what areas to stay away from. Israel also provides more accurate reporting on the progress of the war, much to the annoyance of Hamas. Gaza cell phone networks are also hijacked to send pro-Israel messages. Israel has also been more aggressive at exposing Hamas media deceptions. The Palestinians have long gotten away with deceiving the media with fake civilian casualties. But the growth of the Internet has provided Israel with a way to quickly demolish these disinformation efforts. This sort of thing does little to enhance the credibility of Hamas.

Israel has been using warplanes and helicopters to hit about 200 targets a day in Gaza. Only precision weapons (smart bombs and missiles plus cannon fire) are used and the secondary explosions from Hamas rockets and other munitions makes it clear what the targets are. Israel has also hit places where Hamas leaders were hiding and thought they were safe. This included a media center used by foreign journalists. This sort of thing was a major blow to morale among the Hamas leadership and many of them are believed to have fled to Egypt as a result. This cannot be admitted and Hamas leaders have to maintain the fiction that they are still in Gaza.

20 November, 2012: Two more Israelis die. A soldier was killed by a mortar shell fired from Gaza while a civilian died from a Hamas rocket. In Gaza City masked (to avoid retribution from kin) Hamas security men publicly shot dead six accused spies. The six were probably innocent (at least of spying, but not of offending Hamas in some way) and these public killings were meant to discourage people who actually were helping Israeli intelligence track Hamas leaders and rocket launching teams.

Israeli aircraft began dropping leaflets on some neighborhoods in Gaza City urging residents to flee their homes and head for the city center. While some interpret this as a prelude to an Israeli ground invasion it could also be a ploy to clear out civilians so Israeli aircraft can bomb rocket storage sites built into residential buildings. This technique was learned from Hezbollah in Lebanon, and is supposed to include orders for armed Hamas men to force civilians to stay in buildings sitting on rocket storage bunkers. This will force the Israelis to kill Palestinian civilians in order to destroy the rockets. Israel has assembled over 40,000 troops on the Gaza border, but appears reluctant to send them in as long as there are plenty of targets for air strikes.

17 November, 2012: Israel put its fifth Iron Dome battery into service, several weeks early. This one was positioned to protect Tel Aviv and adjacent coastal areas. The five Iron Dome batteries provide a continuous band of protection across Israel and should stop any long range rockets coming out of Gaza. While Israel has two more Iron Dome batteries on order (each costing nearly $40 million) the military says 13 are needed to provide protection from Hezbollah in the north and Hamas in the south if both groups attack at the same time.

14 November, 2012: Ahmed Jabari, the commander of Hamas military forces, was killed by an Israeli missile. Israel had threatened to go after Hamas leaders if the growing number of rocket attacks on Israel did not stop. Since last month, over 300 rockets have been fired from Gaza, in violation of a ceasefire deal between Hamas and Israel. Hamas blamed the rocket firings on smaller Islamic terror groups it could not control. As a result of the killing of Jabari Hamas declared war on Israel and ordered its rocket forces to make the maximum number of attacks.

[willytheekid]

“The religion of Islam above all others was founded upon the sword … Moreover it provides incentives to slaughter, and in three continents has produced fighting breeds of men – filled with a wild and merciless fanaticism”.

-Sir Winston Churchill - 1899

Personaly, I believe they are the greatest threat to the modern world, because WE believe in equality and acceptance of others and there chosen way of life & religions...they do not!

...The Koran is QUITE clear in regards to other religions, beliefs, and civilisations...convert!...or DIE!!


To quote Winny again:

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient" Rome.


...there IS another religious war coming, and we have open our hearts, minds, and countrys to these merciless fanatic's

[Akzle]

Therein lies the problem. While we and much of the world sit back and observe, the power countries are inextricably linked to it.

you're FJ's mate, aren't ya. in the bus with yer helmet on....

"power countries". lulz. which ones is dem?


It is much easier to criticise and tell everyone they are gits or f-wits,
it certainly is easy with you, ed. i love how you left out the "presumptuous" part though, as though it might give credence to the "git" part...
but much less so to show by example how things should be done, or to get involved and be a force for change.
fuck getting involved. some people shouldn't be saved (i'm lookin at you)
setting an example?? i'm a living example. i've told you this before, quite directly.
NZ was never going to be immune from the time people decided they wanted better lifestyles, better technology, medicine, travel and communication.

better lifestyle. lol.
better technology... to what end?
medicine? we had it all
travel - feel free. one way. out of here.
communication? you think people communicate BETTER nowadays?
more≠better.

You are familiar with the adage, "No man is an island"? It is true of individual's and nations alike. You would not survive on your own, isolated on an island with no infrastructure save what you could make with your own hands from whatever raw material was available.

like fuck i wouldn't. i'll prove it. get off this island. all y'all.

The most "primitive" isolated countries or people's all have a societal infrastructure to survive.
and how closely do their societies resemble any "non primitive" ones?

[Paul in NZ]

...there IS another religious war coming, and we have open our hearts, minds, and countrys to these merciless fanatic's

Thats not quite true historically...

Rome was destroyed because of many factors not the least of them being the great westerly migrations starting with the Huns due to pressure from growing populations in the north and east. There were wave upon wave of these peoples on the move.

There have been quite a few Islamic empires and in general they were tolerant of other religions. During the 'dark ages' Europe was an uncultured barbaric backwater sitting in the decaying remains of the western roman empire and it was the Islamic civilizations that kept the torch of knowledge and justice alight. There was simply no comparison at this time between what was happening in China and the Islamic empires against the northern european ones.

Christian europe finally united militarily under an edict from Pope Urban II to attack the Islamic armies to 'liberate' the Holy land, initially at the request of the remnants of the eastern roman empire. This was as much about the power of the Rome church as it was anything else and yet another example of why the church and the state MUST remain separate. If you want an example of religious fanatics hell bent on slaughter and destruction then look no further than our own recent past.

There is a huge difference between Islam and the radical Islam we see in the world.

Yes - there is a huge potential conflict in the offing and lets just hope it never happens.

[BoristheBiter]

Israel for the win, they've got the better toys.

And the last one out will press the little red button.

[Edbear]

[color=#139922]

like fuck i wouldn't. i'll prove it. get off this island. all y'all.

]

As I said, you wouldn't survive. How about you go find your own island and not steal ours?

The rest of us like living here and while not perfect by any means, I think most would agree that taking EVERYTHING into account, this is the best country in the world to live right now.

[Brett]

Hummus (on crackers) have been firing rockets non-stop across at Israel for a very long time now. How long would you ask your neighbour politely to stop throwing shit across the fence into your back yard before you decide enough is enough? Oh...and before people start going on about how Israel are occupying more and more land...best go back to your history books and see who owned it originally and by whom it was taken. Further, have a look at the Israeli side vs the rest, what you will notice is that the land is well kept and well used (remebering it was absolute waste land when it was originally given back to Israel in the late 1940's which they cleared and made productive) where conversely, the rest is squalid, filthy and unused.

[Edbear]

[setting an example?? i'm a living example. i've told you this before, quite directly

You are an example, yes, of one who lives within and takes advantage of the benefits of society while declaring you are no part of it. Be a true example and go find your own island, develop your own infrastructure and your own technology from the raw materials of the land.

Firstly, you wouldn't be able to find an island you could afford, neither would you be able to build your own boat to get there, not without making a huge amount of money from "our" society and using the technology and materials from "our" society according to the rules and regulations of "our" society. :yes:

[HenryDorsetCase]

You are an example, yes, of one who lives within and takes advantage of the benefits of society while declaring you are no part of it.

.......but in fact demonstrating by action that he is. Dont think about what he says. Look at what he does.

also, this is relevant... Not to Mr A Kzle, but to this discussion.

[Edbear]

.......but in fact demonstrating by action that he is. Dont think about what he says. Look at what he does.

also, this is relevant... Not to Mr A Kzle, but to this discussion.

I wonder whether Akzle thinks about what he says... :blink:

It's not just religious people who kill people, people without any religious bent are quite capable of doing so, just look at the murder rate in any country.

[Maha]

Jah Lives!

[Akzle]

:facepalm: all over you ed.

[Edbear]

:facepalm: all over you ed.

"better lifestyle. lol.
better technology... to what end?
medicine? we had it all
travel - feel free. one way. out of here.
communication? you think people communicate BETTER nowadays?
more≠better.

"power countries". lulz. which ones is dem?

and how closely do their societies resemble any "non primitive" ones?

Your red rep says I missed 98% of the point. No, I get everything you say, the fact is that your points are erroneous in the extreme. You have a very simplistic view, and seem unable to face the reality in front of you.

To do you a favour and acutally address your post...

The "better" lifestyle, technology, medicine, travel and communication refers to as since the Europeans came to NZ for example. How many would want to remain as per pre-European times, with subsistence living? You'd be happy without pretty much everything you take for granted nowadays? Not even horses and cattle were here, travel was by foot, communication was by hand, technology was non-existent beyond primitive weapons and fishing gear fabricated from wood, bone and stone. Medicine was herbal and life-span was minimal by comparison with today.

"Power countries?" If you don't know this one you are truly pathetic.

Societies function similarly world wide whether primitive or modern. Mankind has an inherent need for certain civilised structures and my reference was to demonstrate the similarity with so-called modern societies.

"FJ's mate?" I've never met him in person, but it no doubt bothers you that other members here often share my views.

Really I thought even you would be able to comprehend all this, maybe I was wrong about you.

[mashman]

Hummus (on crackers) have been firing rockets non-stop across at Israel for a very long time now. How long would you ask your neighbour politely to stop throwing shit across the fence into your back yard before you decide enough is enough? Oh...and before people start going on about how Israel are occupying more and more land...best go back to your history books and see who owned it originally and by whom it was taken. Further, have a look at the Israeli side vs the rest, what you will notice is that the land is well kept and well used (remebering it was absolute waste land when it was originally given back to Israel in the late 1940's which they cleared and made productive) where conversely, the rest is squalid, filthy and unused.

How far back would you like to go? The shame of it is that people believe that the land is theirs where in fact the absolute truth is that those who claim land to be theirs actually stole it from everyone.


You are an example, yes, of one who lives within and takes advantage of the benefits of society while declaring you are no part of it. Be a true example and go find your own island, develop your own infrastructure and your own technology from the raw materials of the land.

Firstly, you wouldn't be able to find an island you could afford, neither would you be able to build your own boat to get there, not without making a huge amount of money from "our" society and using the technology and materials from "our" society according to the rules and regulations of "our" society. :yes:

I'd love to see your society and Akzle's society put to the vote. I get the feeling that you would be sadly disappointed with the outcome if that really is your true opinion on the matter. You stand on the shoulders of giants and claim that the infrastructure is yours because your society built it. His society built it too, probably more so than your society as his society want to take it further. Your society builds you neon lights and by the sounds of things that's all you think your society needs and to hell with the consequences. His society does away with the neon lights because they're just fuckin lights and really aren't needed for anything other than "porn" dens and advertising, wasting needless power for starters. Let's have a vote, not a KB poll, but a real honest to god vote on how best to move us forwards. For some reason I doubt the leaders of your society will allow that to happen. They know your society would be bye bye tout de suite.

And that firstly is why his society would beat the living shit out of yours in a cage fight. You perpetuate them and us and take it to new heights with the ignorance that statement displays. I'm relatively sure you're trolling, but I thought I'd post this for the benefit of those who are patting you on the back. what's the betting his society would allow a cease fire to take place? I'd put everything I have on it.

[Edbear]

Jah Lives!

Always has, always will, despite what others would prefer to believe... :shutup:

[mashman]

Your red rep says I missed 98% of the point. No, I get everything you say, the fact is that your points are erroneous in the extreme. You have a very simplistic view, and seem unable to face the reality in front of you.

To do you a favour and acutally address your post...

The "better" lifestyle, technology, medicine, travel and communication refers to as since the Europeans came to NZ for example. How many would want to remain as per pre-European times, with subsistence living? You'd be happy without pretty much everything you take for granted nowadays? Not even horses and cattle were here, travel was by foot, communication was by hand, technology was non-existent beyond primitive weapons and fishing gear fabricated from wood, bone and stone. Medicine was herbal and life-span was minimal by comparison with today.

"Power countries?" If you don't know this one you are truly pathetic.

Societies function similarly world wide whether primitive or modern. Mankind has an inherent need for certain civilised structures and my reference was to demonstrate the similarity with so-called modern societies.

"FJ's mate?" I've never met him in person, but it no doubt bothers you that other members here often share my views.

Really I thought even you would be able to comprehend all this, maybe I was wrong about you.

Oh FFS sake that's just embarrassing :facepalm:

[Edbear]

How far back would you like to go? The shame of it is that people believe that the land is theirs where in fact the absolute truth is that those who claim land to be theirs actually stole it from everyone.



I'd love to see your society and Akzle's society put to the vote. I get the feeling that you would be sadly disappointed with the outcome if that really is your true opinion on the matter. You stand on the shoulders of giants and claim that the infrastructure is yours because your society built it. His society built it too, probably more so than your society as his society want to take it further. Your society builds you neon lights and by the sounds of things that's all you think your society needs and to hell with the consequences. His society does away with the neon lights because they're just fuckin lights and really aren't needed for anything other than "porn" dens and advertising, wasting needless power for starters. Let's have a vote, not a KB poll, but a real honest to god vote on how best to move us forwards. For some reason I doubt the leaders of your society will allow that to happen. They know your society would be bye bye tout de suite.

And that firstly is why his society would beat the living shit out of yours in a cage fight. You perpetuate them and us and take it to new heights with the ignorance that statement displays. I'm relatively sure you're trolling, but I thought I'd post this for the benefit of those who are patting you on the back. what's the betting his society would allow a cease fire to take place? I'd put everything I have on it.

The major flaw in your post is that Akzle does not have or believe in a society. He is an individual, determned to remain as isolated as he likes from anyone and any society. Especialy if he has to conform to the rules of society.

He happily accepts the benefits "our" society brings with it of course, otherwise he'd have to be honest and leave.

As for "them and us", JW's in Israel are a mix of all races, prior religions and classes of society. They meet togther and worship together behind physical protection, due to going against the grain of hate and prejudice around them. This is world-wide of course. We have no separation of race and culture, every person is treated as an equal with equal rights and respect. Women are treated with honour and respect, they have an equal voice and children are likewise treated with respect and dignity.

Just recall Rwanda where the Catholics slaughtered each other because they were of two races, yet both Hutu and Tutsi JW's defended, hid and suported each other in the face of death by refusing to sink to the same depths of racial hatred.

One law for all.

[Edbear]

Oh FFS sake that's just embarrassing :facepalm:

Don't confuse the facts with whether we are happier or better off as individuals or as a society by having these advances. The point is that this is what most want in their lives and would not want to revert back to those conditions. Some would, certainly but in reality how many do? Not Akzle for sure!

You are embarassing yourself by failing to comprehend what I post and reading your own prejudices into it.

[mashman]

The major flaw in your post is that Akzle does not have or believe in a society. He is an individual, determned to remain as isolated as he likes from anyone and any society. Especialy if he has to conform to the rules of society.

He happily accepts the benefits "our" society brings with it of course, otherwise he'd have to be honest and leave.

I have a different opinion on that, so :corn:



As for "them and us", JW's in Israel are a mix of all races, prior religions and classes of society. They meet togther and worship together behind physical protection, due to going against the grain of hate and prejudice around them. This is world-wide of course. We have no separation of race and culture, every person is treated as an equal with equal rights and respect. Women are treated with honour and respect, they have an equal voice and children are likewise treated with respect and dignity.

Just recall Rwanda where the Catholics slaughtered each other because they were of two races, yet both Hutu and Tutsi JW's defended, hid and suported each other in the face of death by refusing to sink to the same depths of racial hatred.

One law for all.

"Them and us" goes further than the distraction that is personal belief, I care not what colour, race, age, weight, gender etc... that's irrelevant as you highlight.

I have considered such atrocities and it's a small number who want war. Being paid as a soldier/conscript is better than not being paid at all after all and who isn't going to fight to protect their home, irrespective of why the "warlord" started the fight in the first place? It's a crock of shit and it's at the whim of a few that these things start. I highly doubt that the majority that took part really give a shit about the demographics of the fight. Same with Palestine and Israel. Rip the fences, amalgamate the govts, remove land rights from Israel and Palestine and call the place Palesrael or Israelistine... see how they go.

[mashman]

Don't confuse the facts with whether we are happier or better off as individuals or as a society by having these advances. The point is that this is what most want in their lives and would not want to revert back to those conditions. Some would, certainly but in reality how many do? Not Akzle for sure!

You are embarassing yourself by failing to comprehend what I post and reading your own prejudices into it.

I think you missed my point. Asia builds things smaller, faster, more efficient etc... why would NZ want to be stuck with the clunky old European shit? There's a great big world out there to share. Why is it people believe that we'd end up going backwards? Why would anyone want to ditch the tech and head back there. Just ditch the useless tech. Perhaps you can explain to me why people want useful tech thrown away?

That seems to be a two way street old man. You seem to be confusing logic with prejudice. Not quite sure how that's possible, but fair enough, I can how that might happen given the attitude that goes along with that state of mind.

[Edbear]

Much like Rwanda I would think. It takes a fundamental change of attitude, a genuine heartfelt change, to get people to accept we all belong to the Human race and would be best served by cooperating together for the common good.

While I agree with you here, it sounded from your post that you were criticising JW's who demonstrate in all nations that people can change and accept each other as equals and can work together for the common good, sacrificing selfish interests that could cause resentment and division while freely using their skills in whatever areas they have, to help their fellow man. Nor do we discriminate against those not of our faith, we do our best to help everyone in any way we can.

If our neighbour needs help, we pitch in and help.

[Edbear]

I think you missed my point. Asia builds things smaller, faster, more efficient etc... why would NZ want to be stuck with the clunky old European shit? There's a great big world out there to share. Why is it people believe that we'd end up going backwards? Why would anyone want to ditch the tech and head back there. Just ditch the useless tech. Perhaps you can explain to me why people want useful tech thrown away?

That seems to be a two way street old man. You seem to be confusing logic with prejudice. Not quite sure how that's possible, but fair enough, I can how that might happen given the attitude that goes along with that state of mind.

I see. Yes, I was talking historically, and as you say, we all like advances, but as I was trying to point out, we cannot accept these advances without accepting there would be none without societies. That the world is inextricably linked and Akzle's attitude denies the obvious.

[willytheekid]

http://www.politifake.org/image/political/1103/cant-we-all-just-get-along-muslims-obama-political-poster-1299377803.jpg

..........:corn:

[mashman]

Much like Rwanda I would think. It takes a fundamental change of attitude, a genuine heartfelt change, to get people to accept we all belong to the Human race and would be best served by cooperating together for the common good.

While I agree with you here, it sounded from your post that you were criticising JW's who demonstrate in all nations that people can change and accept each other as equals and can work together for the common good, sacrificing selfish interests that could cause resentment and division while freely using their skills in whatever areas they have, to help their fellow man. Nor do we discriminate against those not of our faith, we do our best to help everyone in any way we can.

If our neighbour needs help, we pitch in and help.

It doesn't need to be a fundamental change at all. As said earlier, the majority probably don't want war and already have the attitude that a person is a person is a person, they just don't have a way to police their leaders. Out that structure in and ya'd likely see the end of stupid conflicts. A little over optimistic maybe, but still, eminently doable and within our reach. All it takes is an "educated" vote :msn-wink:

Why would I criticise JW's? Might have a joke at their expense, but I would with Catholics, Atheists, Agnostics, Islam, Christianity and Black People too. So settle pettle.

Same here, same in South Auckland, The Gorbals, Brixton, Detroit, Haiti etc... but only if it's permitted by law and the money is available.

[mashman]

I see. Yes, I was talking historically, and as you say, we all like advances, but as I was trying to point out, we cannot accept these advances without accepting there would be none without societies. That the world is inextricably linked and Akzle's attitude denies the obvious.

I say rubbish. It takes an individual with an idea, not a society. It was an apple for Newton. Society just purchases it. Let's wait to see what he has to day as I think you're wrong, or at least much more wrong than right, in regards to his denial.

[Edbear]

It doesn't need to be a fundamental change at all. As said earlier, the majority probably don't want war and already have the attitude that a person is a person is a person, they just don't have a way to police their leaders. Out that structure in and ya'd likely see the end of stupid conflicts. A little over optimistic maybe, but still, eminently doable and within our reach. All it takes is an "educated" vote :msn-wink:

Why would I criticise JW's? Might have a joke at their expense, but I would with Catholics, Atheists, Agnostics, Islam, Christianity and Black People too. So settle pettle.

Same here, same in South Auckland, The Gorbals, Brixton, Detroit, Haiti etc... but only if it's permitted by law and the money is available.

Agreed again... careful here, we might agree on more stuff, :shutup:

It is often the minority spoiling it. Interviews with the Palestinian people show that many want it to be different and do not support Hamas at all.


I say rubbish. It takes an individual with an idea, not a society. It was an apple for Newton. Society just purchases it. Let's wait to see what he has to day as I think you're wrong, or at least much more wrong than right, in regards to his denial.

I look forward to his reply. I try to see where he is coming from, but his posts betray a very slanted understanding of what it reality.

[Edbear]

I say rubbish. It takes an individual with an idea, not a society. It was an apple for Newton. Society just purchases it. Let's wait to see what he has to day as I think you're wrong, or at least much more wrong than right, in regards to his denial.

Oh, Newton was part of a society and appreciated it, as was Ernest Rutherford, and pretty much everyone involved in advancing scientific understanding and technology. If anyone wants to remove themselves from society, they must remove themselves from these advances and show they can do it on thier own without conforming to the structure of the society they are/were part of.

[mashman]

Agreed again... careful here, we might agree on more stuff, :shutup:

It is often the minority spoiling it. Interviews with the Palestinian people show that many want it to be different and do not support Hamas at all.

I look forward to his reply. I try to see where he is coming from, but his posts betray a very slanted understanding of what it reality.

:rofl: we will always have religion.

I've seen a few of those, similar with Iranians and Iraqis etc... generally peaceful until the tards start making demands of other country's and their people.

Me too... til then I'll slide on a depends :eek:

[mashman]

Oh, Newton was part of a society and appreciated it, as was Ernest Rutherford, and pretty much everyone involved in advancing scientific understanding and technology. If anyone wants to remove themselves from society, they must remove themselves from these advances and show they can do it on thier own without conforming to the structure of the society they are/were part of.

What total and utter tosh. I don't class myself, anymore, as part of your society. I function within it because I have very little choice, but I certainly don't identify with it anymore and would dearly like to try something different. However the choice, yes choice, for functioning within your society is enforced upon me by my family. Under your rules I wouldn't be allowed to educate my children and their health would be at risk coz I wouldn't be allowed to use the hospital or medicine. For me state of mind and what I want for the future sets my society apart from yours, but that's all... it'll still contain the same people.

[scumdog]

"how about. not your problem. leave it the hell alone." sez Axzle:rolleyes:

Big call from a man not wanting to be part of 'society' but still wants to stick his nose in anyway...:whistle:

[Katman]

My son-in-law is an Israeli and gives a good insight into the Middle East issues.

You genuinely are too stupid to understand the meaning of the word 'unbiased', aren't you?

[Edbear]

What total and utter tosh. I don't class myself, anymore, as part of your society. I function within it because I have very little choice, but I certainly don't identify with it anymore and would dearly like to try something different. However the choice, yes choice, for functioning within your society is enforced upon me by my family. Under your rules I wouldn't be allowed to educate my children and their health would be at risk coz I wouldn't be allowed to use the hospital or medicine. For me state of mind and what I want for the future sets my society apart from yours, but that's all... it'll still contain the same people.

Das' funny, I posted a reply but it must have diverted into the ether. That or I hit the wrong key...

I was saying that maybe this is where we differ? I define society as does Wikipedia,

"A society, or a human society, is a group of people related to each other through persistent relations, or a large social grouping sharing the same geographical or virtual territory, subject to the same political authority and dominant cultural expectations. Human societies are characterized by patterns of relationships (social relations) between individuals who share a distinctive culture and institutions; a given society may be described as the sum total of such relationships among its constituent members. In the social sciences, a larger society often evinces stratification and/or dominance patterns in subgroups.

Insofar as it is collaborative, a society can enable its members to benefit in ways that would not otherwise be possible on an individual basis; both individual and social (common) benefits can thus be distinguished, or in many cases found to overlap.

A society can also consist of like-minded people governed by their own norms and values within a dominant, larger society. This is sometimes referred to as a subculture, a term used extensively within criminology."

So while we all live in a society, we can identify with a sub-society.

[Edbear]

You genuinely are too stupid to understand the meaning of the word 'unbiased', aren't you?

Your persistent propensity to make baseless assumptions does more to emphasie your lame-brained attitude than anything I could say. :whocares:

[willytheekid]

:yawn:....hmmm what does this thread need?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKchwAWMpDA

...yup!, non related cool war music vid (your welcome!:bleh:)


:blink:...wait, what where we talking about?...religion always confuses me :laugh:

(And I thought the middle east argued about stupid things :facepalm:) :corn:...carry on

[Akzle]

The major flaw in your post is that Akzle does not have or believe in a society. He is an individual, determned to remain as isolated as he likes from anyone and any society. Especialy if he has to conform to the rules of society.

He happily accepts the benefits "our" society brings with it of course, otherwise he'd have to be honest and leave.


tut tut. you're using words again. i think that's probably where most of your problems start.

society is a group of people WORKING TOGETHER to achieve COMMON GOALS. as it stands, there isn't one.
as i've said before i am part of various communities, as i've said before i am not anti-societal. i am anti-what most people call society.. i am anti-establishment, anti-government, anti-corporate, anticonsumeristic. but find me a society that i agree with, and i'm in.

i make use of the established shit, yes, you may claim that for your society, but that comes at a hell of a cost for most in your society., which i do not agree with.


The point is that this is what most want in their lives and would not want to revert back to those conditions. Some would, certainly but in reality how many do? Not Akzle for sure!

what the hell are you on about? that's your judgement call based on...? fuckall.. much like the rest of what you're posting...


It takes a fundamental change of attitude, a genuine heartfelt change, to get people to accept we all belong to the Human race and would be best served by cooperating together for the common good.

While I agree with you here, it sounded from your post that you were criticising JW's who demonstrate in all nations that people can change and accept each other as equals and can work together for the common good, sacrificing selfish interests that could cause resentment and division while freely using their skills in whatever areas they have, to help their fellow man. Nor do we discriminate against those not of our faith, we do our best to help everyone in any way we can.

If our neighbour needs help, we pitch in and help.

you're fucking trolling, right?

that's pretty much my ideal, that's pretty much how i live.
now, ask yourself ed, is that the kind of shit THAT GOES ON IN YOUR "SOCIETY"?
(hint: no, no it isn't)

[mashman]

I look forward to his reply. I try to see where he is coming from, but his posts betray a very slanted understanding of what it reality.

Praps a tad premature, but :wari::wari::wari::wari::argue::Pokey::girlfight:: first:

[mashman]

:yawn:....hmmm what does this thread need?

Not it didn't need soft metal ballad music at all. That kinda shit should be banned.

[Maha]

Praps a tad premature

I feel your angst....:cry:

[mashman]

Das' funny, I posted a reply but it must have diverted into the ether. That or I hit the wrong key...

I was saying that maybe this is where we differ? I define society as does Wikipedia,

"A society, or a human society, is a group of people related to each other through persistent relations, or a large social grouping sharing the same geographical or virtual territory, subject to the same political authority and dominant cultural expectations. Human societies are characterized by patterns of relationships (social relations) between individuals who share a distinctive culture and institutions; a given society may be described as the sum total of such relationships among its constituent members. In the social sciences, a larger society often evinces stratification and/or dominance patterns in subgroups.

Insofar as it is collaborative, a society can enable its members to benefit in ways that would not otherwise be possible on an individual basis; both individual and social (common) benefits can thus be distinguished, or in many cases found to overlap.

A society can also consist of like-minded people governed by their own norms and values within a dominant, larger society. This is sometimes referred to as a subculture, a term used extensively within criminology."

So while we all live in a society, we can identify with a sub-society.

I received it in the spechul mail for some reason. T'would seem that my society is all around me, albeit suppressed by yours. I wants to put it to a vote.

[mashman]

I feel your angst....:cry:

Oooooo. I thought I had just laid on my arm for too long. Thanks

[Scouse]

I did think it rather funny that Hamas said Israel started it. Like they weren't doing anything by launching continuous rocket attacks for months...
I did think it rather funny that the Jews said Hamas started it. Like they weren't doing anything by moving into and occupying Palestine after world war 2

Israel is not Israel it is Palestine

[Katman]

Your persistent propensity to make baseless assumptions does more to emphasie your lame-brained attitude than anything I could say. :whocares:

I'll take that as a 'yes' then.

[Paul in NZ]

Israel is not Israel it is Palestine

How far back do you want to go? People have been marching through that strip of dirt since Ugg smacked UGGG with a jowl of an auroch.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Oooooo. I thought I had just laid on my arm for too long. Thanks

the stranger. Its time for the stranger

[Edbear]

tut tut. you're using words again. i think that's probably where most of your problems start.

society is a group of people WORKING TOGETHER to achieve COMMON GOALS. as it stands, there isn't one.
as i've said before i am part of various communities, as i've said before i am not anti-societal. i am anti-what most people call society.. i am anti-establishment, anti-government, anti-corporate, anticonsumeristic. but find me a society that i agree with, and i'm in.

i make use of the established shit, yes, you may claim that for your society, but that comes at a hell of a cost for most in your society., which i do not agree with.



what the hell are you on about? that's your judgement call based on...? fuckall.. much like the rest of what you're posting...

you're fucking trolling, right?

that's pretty much my ideal, that's pretty much how i live.
now, ask yourself ed, is that the kind of shit THAT GOES ON IN YOUR "SOCIETY"?
(hint: no, no it isn't)

Now that is the first time you have actually clarified your stance. Actually "used words". If you went back and read all your posts, you won't find anything like this. So my judgement call was based purely on your posts to date.

You keep talking about "my society" as though I am an intrinsical part of it, or own it or something. My post defining society as per Wikipedia should explain my view on society.I am no more a part of this society than you or anyone else is.

I do not vote or get involved in politics, one reason is that to do so would be a force for contention and division within "my society" of JW's. People have differing views and politics clearly shows it is a force for division, not cooperation. Same reason we don't join the armed forces, it is unthinkable for one JW to fight against and kill another, and as we are one united group world-wide, that stand should be obvious.

We don't, or shouldn't anyway, get too wrapped up in the consumerism of this society, as we are encouraged to be hard working and fiscally responsible in providing for the needs of ourselves and our families.

You and I are perhaps not too far apart in our views in the end, but you could be more eloquent in putting yours forth.

[Edbear]

How far back do you want to go? People have been marching through that strip of dirt since Ugg smacked UGGG with a jowl of an auroch.

Yup! Other posters have pointed this out. It goes back thousands of years and 1948 was an attempt to right the wrongs to the Israeli's. The whole Middle East issues date back way before European times and are not going to be resolved any time soon by anyone's attempts at mediation.

[Akzle]

you clearly haven't been following my posts. i've repeated my position to the point where everyone else is not only sick of it, but could probably argue it for me if they so chose.

you keep claiming society. i keep claiming not-society. you say i'm part of society whether i like it or not, i say you're a dick.

you are fucking obtuse.

/discourse.

[Edbear]

you clearly haven't been following my posts. i've repeated my position to the point where everyone else is not only sick of it, but could probably argue it for me if they so chose.

you keep claiming society. i keep claiming not-society. you say i'm part of society whether i like it or not, i say you're a dick.

you are fucking obtuse.

/discourse.

Whatever floats your boat... :violin:

[scumdog]

i've repeated my position to the point where everyone else is not only sick of it, (Guess who?):killingme:rofl::whistle:

Ah, good old green A, so predictable...

[ellipsis]

...it seems most people regard reality as real...thats a silly place to start assuming that one has knowledge of the situation...anyway down here the middle east is the Chathams, from where I sit...do they have any oil...or sand...

[Brett]

I did think it rather funny that the Jews said Hamas started it. Like they weren't doing anything by moving into and occupying Palestine after world war 2

Israel is not Israel it is Palestine

Check your history Homie. And even using your ww2 example...as part of an agreement, the Jews were given a piece of land to shut them up, the powers that be at the time gave them a small wedge of the shittiest land possible in the region. It was through innovation and hard work (was wasteland - the Jews worked the land, planted specific species of tree's to literally change the local ecosystem and make the land healthy and viable) that they made something productive out of it. It was after this that suddenly the Palestinians looked over their border and said "ohhh now that you have done something decent with the land that we though shit, we would like it back thanks" and so started fresh conflicts.

And FFS...people seem to miss the cue that Hamas are a freaking terrorist organisation, who - by the way- would equally love to engage in Jihad with our western arses.

[Katman]

I think it's hilarious that anyone in this thread thinks they know what the whole thing is about.

Fuck me, I imagine even the people actually involved in the conflict have long since forgotten what started it.

I read a quote many years ago about the conflict in Northern Ireland. It said 'Neither side wants peace, both sides want victory'.

I think it probably applies here as well.

[scumdog]

I think it's hilarious that anyone in this thread thinks they know what the whole thing is about.

Fuck me, I imagine even the people actually involved in the conflict have long since forgotten what started it.

I read a quote many years ago about the conflict in Northern Ireland. It said 'Neither side wants peace, both sides want victory'.

I think it probably applies here as well.

An they'll all have a variation as to WHY they're fighting...with only a tenuous similarity to anybody elses explanation.

[Brett]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10849378

So, the cease fire is agreed and the first thing Hamas does is start antagonising Israel by claiming it as a victory over Israel?? Are they retarded or what? Kind of makes you think that they just want to keep scrapping.

[BoristheBiter]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10849378

So, the cease fire is agreed and the first thing Hamas does is start antagonising Israel by claiming it as a victory over Israel?? Are they retarded or what? Kind of makes you think that they just want to keep scrapping.

And they do.
The Arab states will not be happy until Israel is gone so this will never be over and could leed to nuclear war as Israel have already said they will not hesitate to use their missiles.

[Swoop]

Kind of makes you think that they just want to keep scrapping.

Hamas' stance is "nothing short of the total destruction of Israel".

Period.

It is their party policy. People need to remember that they were "elected" (falls off chair with laughter...) and now refuse elections in Gaza. Hamas has little control over the other terrorist cells in the strip, and they lob mortars and rockets across the border while quite happily giving the finger to Hamas.
Luckily their main supply line from Iran has been significantly reduced by the Sudan operation.



It has been surprising that the ground offensive didn't eventuate. Schools along the border were suspended six to seven weeks ago and this is normally a signal that operations will commence soon.

[actungbaby]

Hummus (on crackers) have been firing rockets non-stop across at Israel for a very long time now. How long would you ask your neighbour politely to stop throwing shit across the fence into your back yard before you decide enough is enough? Oh...and before people start going on about how Israel are occupying more and more land...best go back to your history books and see who owned it originally and by whom it was taken. Further, have a look at the Israeli side vs the rest, what you will notice is that the land is well kept and well used (remebering it was absolute waste land when it was originally given back to Israel in the late 1940's which they cleared and made productive) where conversely, the rest is squalid, filthy and unused.

yet the isreail govt will not let the palstian people have there land that was agreed after world war 2 , for pitys sake the decent prime mister that had it sorted they shot him dead, he was great man.

know the isreal govt contempt to keep building new houses on the land they are so arogant its seems they have the attitude that can do anything because what happened during second world war(which was horrendous) of course but 2 wrongs dont make a right.

[Brett]

Hamas' stance is "nothing short of the total destruction of Israel".

Period.

It is their party policy. People need to remember that they were "elected" (falls off chair with laughter...) and now refuse elections in Gaza. Hamas has little control over the other terrorist cells in the strip, and they lob mortars and rockets across the border while quite happily giving the finger to Hamas.
Luckily their main supply line from Iran has been significantly reduced by the Sudan operation.



It has been surprising that the ground offensive didn't eventuate. Schools along the border were suspended six to seven weeks ago and this is normally a signal that operations will commence soon.

Very true.

[Brett]

yet the isreail govt will not let the palstian people have there land that was agreed after world war 2 , for pitys sake the decent prime mister that had it sorted they shot him dead, he was great man.

know the isreal govt contempt to keep building new houses on the land they are so arogant its seems they have the attitude that can do anything because what happened during second world war(which was horrendous) of course but 2 wrongs dont make a right.

I think that is a rather ignorant view view of the situation tbh (no offense intended here), specifically in regards to the settlements etc. I would reply...but have to run to a meeting so it will have to wait till later.

[Brett]

I read a quote many years ago about the conflict in Northern Ireland. It said 'Neither side wants peace, both sides want victory'.

I think it probably applies here as well.

I agree with you. It is one of those ultimate standoffs...two tigers locked in a fight and neither willing to be beaten. I know which side I would fight for...purely based on historical battle wins! (And I happen to agree with them as a nation).

[Swoop]

... contempt to keep building new houses on the land

You may find the problem areas of house-building are in the areas of land captured during one of the many wars.
Seems to me if you attack a country with military force, and lose, you risk losing some of your own territory as well.

[SPman]

I've got to the point I don't give a f**k what they all do, as long as they do it in their own playground and don't try and impinge on mine........simplistic and unrealistic - yes - but I just don't care any more..........

[ellipsis]

I've got to the point I don't give a f**k what they all do, as long as they do it in their own playground and don't try and impinge on mine........simplistic and unrealistic - yes - but I just don't care any more..........


...and that it doesn't adversely affect the running of my CB350F...ditto to the rest...

[Bald Eagle]

Drop a bike enough nuke, all the sand turns to glass, lovely big fish bowl... problem solved.

[Brett]

You may find the problem areas of house-building are in the areas of land captured during one of the many wars.
Seems to me if you attack a country with military force, and lose, you risk losing some of your own territory as well.

Not if your Israel. In their case, their neighbours attack them (3 vs 1 in the case of Israel vs Jordan, Egypt, Syria in 1967 - all three who were defeated in 6 days none-the-less) hoping to wipe them out, instead get beaten and driven back and then they are expected to return the captured land. Fair?? I really don't think so either!

[Brett]

yet the isreail govt will not let the palstian people have there land that was agreed after world war 2 , for pitys sake the decent prime mister that had it sorted they shot him dead, he was great man.

know the isreal govt contempt to keep building new houses on the land they are so arogant its seems they have the attitude that can do anything because what happened during second world war(which was horrendous) of course but 2 wrongs dont make a right.

Yeah...that went out of the window once, just after signing the agreement, Israels retard neighbours decided to declare war on them with the intention of destroying them...their neighbours kind of got their arses handed to them and Israel got to claim more land. Ironic much? I think so.

[Edbear]

Pays to check your history. The Media don't always give the full story... :shutup:

But everyone knew that, right..?

[Banditbandit]

Pays to check your history.

That's True . the Jews have been occupying that land since their God gave it to them

Genesis 15:18-21 the boundary of the promised land is clarified in terms of the territory of various ancient peoples, as follows: On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates - the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites."

Well - guess what happened to all those people? And the Jews have had to use force to keep the land ever since ...

And we think the problem is the Palestinians? The problem is the violent terrorist state of Israel ..

[MisterD]

Well - guess what happened to all those people? And the Jews have had to use force to keep the land ever since

Conveniently ignoring the fact that genetically, the vast majority of "Palestinian" Muslims and "Israeli" Jews come from the same pool. The distinction is cultural and religious, not racial.

I don't get how the Muslims get to claim the Jews stole their land, when they're nearly all decended from Jews and Christians who converted to Islam.

[oneofsix]

That's True . the Jews have been occupying that land since their God gave it to them

Genesis 15:18-21 the boundary of the promised land is clarified in terms of the territory of various ancient peoples, as follows: On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates - the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites."

Well - guess what happened to all those people? And the Jews have had to use force to keep the land ever since ...

And we think the problem is the Palestinians? The problem is the violent terrorist state of Israel ..

The problem is that the Jews did not follow their Lord's commandment and instead left some of the previous occupiers alive. :corn:

[Edbear]

Conveniently ignoring the fact that genetically, the vast majority of "Palestinian" Muslims and "Israeli" Jews come from the same pool. The distinction is cultural and religious, not racial.

I don't get how the Muslims get to claim the Jews stole their land, when they're nearly all decended from Jews and Christians who converted to Islam.

Wot he sed...

[Banditbandit]

Conveniently ignoring the fact that genetically, the vast majority of "Palestinian" Muslims and "Israeli" Jews come from the same pool. The distinction is cultural and religious, not racial.

No-one ignores that .. The Jews claim descent from Abraham via his wife Sarai ... who had a son called Isaac and Islamic people from Abraham via his Handmaiden Hagar .. who gave birth to Ishmael.



I don't get how the Muslims get to claim the Jews stole their land, when they're nearly all decended from Jews and Christians who converted to Islam.


Islam is certainly a newer religion than Judaism (the oldest of the three) and Christianity ... but the Arabs were neither Jewish nor Christian .. they had their own religions until they all became Moslems after Mohammed's revelations - (some were forced to adopt Islam) but some Arab groups are still not Moslem - they maintain their own tribal religions ...

But it was Palestinian land until 1948 when the Brits pulled out - leaving the jewish settlements surrounded by the Arab states ... then the Jews established their own state by force of arms ..

[Edbear]

Not quite correct, it was a bit more complex than that.

http://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/CreationIsrael

[avgas]

20 November, 2012: Israel has bought seven batteries of Iron Dome anti-rocket missiles. Four are in action and a fifth one entered service several weeks early (on November 17) because of the major rocket assault Hamas and other Islamic terror groups in Gaza launched on November 14th.
Out of interest how does the Iron Dome(s) stack up against the ol' fashion patriots an C-wizzes? I imagine better - but I am so out of the loop on that stuff these days.

[Swoop]

Out of interest how does the Iron Dome(s) stack up against the ol' fashion patriots an C-wizzes? I imagine better - but I am so out of the loop on that stuff these days.
Comparing apples and oranges there.
IRBM threat or anti-aircraft = Patriot. Even more modern is the new THAAD systems to get to those "hard to reach" places.

Short range missiles are the food for ID however. There was also an earlier protection system (prior to ID) which used Phalanx systems running new software and these were even effective against mortar shells fired over the wall. I would not be surprised if these were still in use as well.


There does seem to be a shortage of the ID missiles now. The manufacturer of the Tamir missiles is working around the clock to keep up the supply and replenish stocks.

[Banditbandit]

Not quite correct, it was a bit more complex than that.

http://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/CreationIsrael

Yeah maybe ... most of that was the posturing and hot air before Britain pulled out .. leaving the Jews at the apparent mercy of the surrounding Arab states .. and while Truman made nice noises he did fuck all ...

The result was the Jews kicked the shit out of their Arab neighbours - and have needed to maintain their state through violence ever since ..

[Akzle]

fuck, this thread got boring quick.

[oneofsix]

fuck, this thread got boring quick.

put a bomb under it

[Akzle]

put a bomb under it

jews are theiveing scheming bastuards that are responsible for the financial system and associated tomfuckery that is basically the cause of most human problems in the world today.

[Maha]

put a bomb under it

What a waste of good fire power.
So that Jesus fulla, when did he actually die?
They strung him up, put him a cave and locked the boulder on the way out, but he managed to evaporate out of there some how (chances are he wasn't even in there in the first place) ...but, then what did he do? was he never heard/seen of again?
A straping young chap in his 30's like that must have popped up somewhere?, maybe a craft shop in Nazareth?...so many questions!

[oneofsix]

What a waste of good fire power.
So that Jesus fulla, when did he actually die?
They strung him up, put him a cave and locked the boulder on the way out, but he managed to evaporate out of there some how (chances are he wasn't even in there in the first place) ...but, then what did he do? was he never heard/seen of again?
A straping young chap in his 30's like that must have popped up somewhere?, maybe a craft shop in Nazareth?...so many questions!

:lol: actually he reportedly spent about a week scaring the BeJeesus out of people including a gentlemen ever since known as Doubting Thomas because he just had to go put his hand in the wound in Jesus' side, can't convince some people.

How did Mohammed die? Old age? STD? murder? I guess not suicide.

[Maha]

:lol: actually he reportedly spent about a week scaring the BeJeesus out of people including a gentlemen ever since known as Doubting Thomas because he just had to go put his hand in the wound in Jesus' side, can't convince some people.

How did Mohammed die? Old age? STD? murder? I guess not suicide.

And that Budda the big fat bastard!....:tugger:

[ellipsis]

jews are theiveing scheming bastuards that are responsible for the financial system and associated tomfuckery that is basically the cause of most human problems in the world today.

...a swarthy little cunt with mo and a few other lily livers were the most recent to push that to it's limit...didn't do them any better than six or seven years of the high life...been done to death a few times before that in history too..it seems to have made them(the yids) a fairly turn the other cheek, resilient sort of people. Tougher than most if you want to talk about a national psyche...carry on, the floor belongs to you and the gentiles who know...

[Edbear]

jews are theiveing scheming bastuards that are responsible for the financial system and associated tomfuckery that is basically the cause of most human problems in the world today.

Let's not let the facts get in the way of prejudice, eh? :blink: Another well researched and balanced opinion from one who knows everything... :facepalm:

[Banditbandit]

jews are theiveing scheming bastuards that are responsible for the financial system and associated tomfuckery that is basically the cause of most human problems in the world today.

And I suppose you can solve our energy problems - just by turning around and bending over???

[Oscar]

The thing is, the Middle East is all religiously based, no separation of religion and state as in the Western world. Their culture and heritage is their religion. My son-in-law could not enter politics as he is not a Jew.

Not true.
There are plenty of Israeli MP's who are Arab.

[Edbear]

Not true.
There are plenty of Israeli MP's who are Arab.

I stand to be corrected, there was something about the political scene that was affected by him not being Jewish.

I'll ask him about it again, it was years ago that he told me.

[Katman]

I stand to be corrected

Best you brush up on your research skills Ed.

[puddytat]

You gotta feel sorry for the Jews (Israeli ones any way)....widely disliked since whenever, generally lacking in empathy for any Goy anywhere, a general arrogance towards any one but themselves (they are the true children of God after all) their ability to fuck off most rather quickly with their ability to always insist on a discount, the way they insist that rules (trust me Ive worked with enough of them in Tourism) dont apply to them, especially U.N mandates....& the way they jump in fright every time some unexpected noise surprises them.
I have found that they resort to bullying tactics if they dont get their way, by puffing themselves up, so much so that Ive told several over the years that Im no fucking Arab & they can just fuck off. One had the nerve to tell me that "we" were lucky that N.Z wasnt the Promised Land, to which I replied that we'd be fighting them too.
Muslims on the other hand (Asian ones that is ) are some of the most respectful, happy people around & generally spend more with us.

I am generalising of course.

I can see why the Chinese ban organised religion. When was the last time that Religion stopped War?

[Edbear]

You gotta feel sorry for the Jews (Israeli ones any way)....widely disliked since whenever, generally lacking in empathy for any Goy anywhere, a general arrogance towards any one but themselves (they are the true children of God after all) their ability to fuck off most rather quickly with their ability to always insist on a discount, the way they insist that rules (trust me Ive worked with enough of them in Tourism) dont apply to them, especially U.N mandates....& the way they jump in fright every time some unexpected noise surprises them.
I have found that they resort to bullying tactics if they dont get their way, by puffing themselves up, so much so that Ive told several over the years that Im no fucking Arab & they can just fuck off. One had the nerve to tell me that "we" were lucky that N.Z wasnt the Promised Land, to which I replied that we'd be fighting them too.
Muslims on the other hand (Asian ones that is ) are some of the most respectful, happy people around & generally spend more with us.

I am generalising of course.

I can see why the Chinese ban organised religion. When was the last time that Religion stopped War?

Generally may be true, though when my daughter and son-in-law went to Israel recently they had a fabulous time and only the Orthodox Jews were "above talking to them". They travelled safely and securely everywhere and were enthusiastically welcomed when the locals found out they were from NZ. The average Israeli loves NZ and most wanted to come here for a visit.

Okay, Rudy was born there and they stayed with family, but generally they were perceived a tourists. Most speak English very well and are highly educated.

China is a religious nation and as with most Eastern nations religion is their culture, (same here with the Maori and most Pacific Islands), as also Japan and many African nations. NZ is among the mainly Western nations where religion and State are separate.

[mashman]

So just another group of individuals with prejudices... and backed up by a book of all things. Will such wonders never cease.

[Paul in NZ]

I suspect a lot of people that live in Israel and Palestine are Jews or Arabs in the same way I'm Christian... ie I was sent to sunday school and know enough about it to run a bloody mile whenever someone with 'religious convictions' turns up... I really feel for these people.

The more history I read the more disgusted I am with organized religion and the more dismayed I become for the future of humanity.

EVERY organization professing to represent the word of any god has a history of lying and filling in gaps to the point of their material being suspect in the extreme. Not one of them would stand up in a secular court as 'evidence' and always it comes down to a leap of faith. Usually this leap is onto a lilly pad sitting in a shit pond and controlled by an evil emperor and its only once you are on the pad that you find out theres no way off it and no questioning the emperor...

Its no wonder that two countries that are based strongly on faith will always fight no matter what.

The irony is that the Jews really did set the scene for Islam and Christianity to develop. The Jewish monotheist religion was a major innovation albeit one born of necessity. The idea that a universal god that didn't live in a temple or a rock, river, mountain or urn made of earwax was something special. Suddenly you could carry your god with you... Ever since then people have been wishing they would.

Jewish history is a rich one and yes they have been made scapegoat time and time again but at some point it has to be asked why this happens? Its like a woman who has 10 kids by 12 different fathers all with problems around drugs, violence etc etc. Put it this way if she was your opening batsman you would be sending her to the batting coach for some work on shot selection.

Its also got to the point where even writing something mildly critical of Jews or Islam now has everyone frothing at the mouth and pointing fingers accusing you of every nasty thing in the world. This despite the fact that they are quietly in the background shooting the shit out of each other for any old reason they can think of... Not really very godly...

During the great reformist years Martin Luther 'invented' (just for arguments sake) Protestantism. He was actually a catholic monk and was horrified by the excesses of the roman church and particularly the practice of selling 'indulgences' to lessen the time sent in purgatory. In a nut shell his argument was that sin was unavoidable and only redeemable by christ. ie that sin was everywhere and it was impossible not to sin. Faith was the road to salvation - if you had enough faith then sin was redeemed. Its a cool idea because as long as you have faith you can be an utter cunt.... and you will be forgiven. Its an idea thats been picked up by everyone else... Yeah i can kill those guys, blow up that bus etc but its OK because I have faith... Its bullshit... and needs to be remembered that at the time christianity was in retreat from Islamic 'Turks' of the Ottoman empire and most christians thought their civilization was doomed and the end of times was at hand.

Its no wonder Martin was a tad 'gloomy'...

Well all I can say is that if there IS a universal god then every religion that reveres the God of Abraham is in for a heck of a lot of explaining.... They are without a doubt the worst plague ever unleashed on the planet... smug pricks the lot of them

[Edbear]

I suspect a lot of people that live in Israel and Palestine are Jews or Arabs in the same way I'm Christian... ie I was sent to sunday school and know enough about it to run a bloody mile whenever someone with 'religious convictions' turns up... I really feel for these people.

The more history I read the more disgusted I am with organized religion and the more dismayed I become for the future of humanity.

SNIP TO SAVE SPACE...

Its no wonder Martin was a tad 'gloomy'...

Well all I can say is that if there IS a universal god then every religion that reveres the God of Abraham is in for a heck of a lot of explaining.... They are without a doubt the worst plague ever unleashed on the planet... smug pricks the lot of them

Not a bad summing up really. And your final comment is more profound than you may realise...

It is not so much the religious aspect per se, as many if not most religious writings are promoting peace and harmony and encourage doing good to one's neighbour.

The problem is with the human race in toto. People tend to be greedy, and money/power hungry and will sieze upon any good excuse to gain such, and with Man's inherent spiritual nature, an inbuilt need to believe in a higher power, religion is a perfect means to achieve that. It wasn't just religious leaders who wanted the gerneral populace to remain ingnorant in order they could control them, politicians, ie: Kings, Emperor's, etc. preferred this and actively used their power to supress in order to maintain their position.

When the Jews actually lived according to their scriptures, they were prosperous and had peace between them and their surrounding neighbours and internal peace each one. Finances were organised fairly and no-one was left permanently indebted, heritances were preserved and women and children were respected and cherished.

Unfortunately, too often their greed and avarice won out over law, and finally when they murdered Christ they were rejected as the People of God. However, the Jewish nation refused to accept Christ and maintain they are still God's Chosen Nation. They remain in expectation of the Messiah right through to today.

Man is more than capable of Genocide and murder and nationalistic fervour and hatred without religion, as history shows. But certainly organised religion is due its comeuppance and it won't be too far away either. But that's for another thread... :shutup:

[Paul in NZ]

Not a bad summing up really. And your final comment is more profound than you may realise...

It is not so much the religious aspect per se, as many if not most religious writings are promoting peace and harmony and encourage doing good to one's neighbour.

The problem is with the human race in toto. People tend to be greedy, and money/power hungry and will sieze upon any good excuse to gain such, and with Man's inherent spiritual nature, an inbuilt need to believe in a higher power, religion is a perfect means to achieve that. It wasn't just religious leaders who wanted the gerneral populace to remain ingnorant in order they could control them, politicians, ie: Kings, Emperor's, etc. preferred this and actively used their power to supress in order to maintain their position.

When the Jews actually lived according to their scriptures, they were prosperous and had peace between them and their surrounding neighbours and internal peace each one. Finances were organised fairly and no-one was left permanently indebted, heritances were preserved and women and children were respected and cherished.

Unfortunately, too often their greed and avarice won out over law, and finally when they murdered Christ they were rejected as the People of God. However, the Jewish nation refused to accept Christ and maintain they are still God's Chosen Nation. They remain in expectation of the Messiah right through to today.

Man is more than capable of Genocide and murder and nationalistic fervour and hatred without religion, as history shows. But certainly organised religion is due its comeuppance and it won't be too far away either. But that's for another thread... :shutup:

The 'Jews' didn't murder Christ. A few men of power got rid of what was to them a bit of an inconvenience and likely a civil criminal. The 'Jews' as in Mr and Mrs average jew had nothing at all to do with it. In fact I doubt, given that information technology and communications of the time consisted of a fat git called achmed and a surly camel that they even knew he existed... He certainly didnt start much - it was that prick paul a few decades later that caused all the problems.

Ed I disagree - the vast majority of people are NOT greedy horrible people at all. They are just busy getting on with life and thus susceptible to snake oil salesmen promising everything and delivering nothing. Stuff gets done in their name and sold to them as a good idea. Mostly people are just scared... problem is the saviours are the ones you really need to be afraid of.

[Edbear]

The 'Jews' didn't murder Christ. A few men of power got rid of what was to them a bit of an inconvenience and likely a civil criminal. The 'Jews' as in Mr and Mrs average jew had nothing at all to do with it. In fact I doubt, given that information technology and communications of the time consisted of a fat git called achmed and a surly camel that they even knew he existed... He certainly didnt start much - it was that prick paul a few decades later that caused all the problems.

Ed I disagree - the vast majority of people are NOT greedy horrible people at all. They are just busy getting on with life and thus susceptible to snake oil salesmen promising everything and delivering nothing. Stuff gets done in their name and sold to them as a good idea. Mostly people are just scared... problem is the saviours are the ones you really need to be afraid of.

Oh he was very well known and the reason he was murdered was his exposing the hypocrisy of the Jewish Pharisees, so they broke their own laws and organised to have him tried for sedition, however, while Pilate found him innocent, he nevertheless handed him over to the Jews for death, probably in fear of causing a ruckus that would bring the Roman Govt. into it. He placated the Jews to preserve the peace.

Christ started the Christian congregation and by the time Paul came along it was well established, he just proved a force for advancing it.

I didn't say most people are capable of hatred, even among the religions, most people just want to get along and live in peace. My point was that it doesn't necessarily need religion for Man to be cruel to his fellowman. It is human nature that is at fault with those who use religion or nationalism for their greedy ends.

Looking at the violence and anarchy going on around the world today, not all of it is religiously based. Much of it is political, drugs or gang violence and in general society, including NZ, Australia, the USA, people are becoming more violent, less caring, more reactionary, more anarchic.

[Paul in NZ]

Oh he was very well known and the reason he was murdered was his exposing the hypocrisy of the Jewish Pharisees, so they broke their own laws and organised to have him tried for sedition, however, while Pilate found him innocent, he nevertheless handed him over to the Jews for death, probably in fear of causing a ruckus that would bring the Roman Govt. into it. He placated the Jews to preserve the peace.

Christ started the Christian congregation and by the time Paul came along it was well established, he just proved a force for advancing it.

I didn't say most people are capable of hatred, even among the religions, most people just want to get along and live in peace. My point was that it doesn't necessarily need religion for Man to be cruel to his fellowman. It is human nature that is at fault with those who use religion or nationalism for their greedy ends.

Looking at the violence and anarchy going on around the world today, not all of it is religiously based. Much of it is political, drugs or gang violence and in general society, including NZ, Australia, the USA, people are becoming more violent, less caring, more reactionary, more anarchic.


Ed the point is that all the various branches of the followers of the god of abraham are drenched in blood to the point where they are simply beyond redemption. They are by their own definition evil sinners but think that they will be saved by faith.

Religion is just another way of organizing societies and it always end in death. Civil governments are not much better but the stronger the belief and the louder the preacher to more violent the outcome.

Frankly - I would welcome a second coming ....

[RDJ]

Religion is just another way of organizing societies and it always end in death. Civil governments are not much better but the stronger the belief and the louder the preacher to more violent the outcome.

...and the (small) advantage is that evil civil governments may get lazy or sated... whereas the truly diligent fanatics just keep right on killing the unbelievers as they (claim to) think they are saving in the afterlife the people they slaughter in this life...

[Edbear]

Ed the point is that all the various branches of the followers of the god of abraham are drenched in blood to the point where they are simply beyond redemption. They are by their own definition evil sinners but think that they will be saved by faith.

Religion is just another way of organizing societies and it always end in death. Civil governments are not much better but the stronger the belief and the louder the preacher to more violent the outcome.

Frankly - I would welcome a second coming ....

Again I agree with you here, you may not realise just how close to the truth you are though.

We see it every day, how the masses can be lead by the powerful minority and certainly religious fanaticism has been predominant throughout history. This is slowly but surely giving way to Nationlism, though, as more and more people get fed up with the lies, hypocrisy and bloodshed, not to mention the paedophilia, of their religious leaders and desert them in droves. Their "waters are drying up" and they are losing support world-wide. However, Man as a race still needs leadership and something to believe in and fight for, so watch this space for the rise of intense Nationlism, particularly in the West, but coupled with a corresponding rise in civil unrest around the world.

[Akzle]

EVERY organization professing to represent the word of any god has a history of lying and filling in gaps to the point of their material being suspect in the extreme.


have you looked at bhuddist, vedic, krishna scriptures and history?

[Paul in NZ]

Again I agree with you here, you may not realise just how close to the truth you are though.

We see it every day, how the masses can be lead by the powerful minority and certainly religious fanaticism has been predominant throughout history. This is slowly but surely giving way to Nationlism, though, as more and more people get fed up with the lies, hypocrisy and bloodshed, not to mention the paedophilia, of their religious leaders and desert them in droves. Their "waters are drying up" and they are losing support world-wide. However, Man as a race still needs leadership and something to believe in and fight for, so watch this space for the rise of intense Nationlism, particularly in the West, but coupled with a corresponding rise in civil unrest around the world.

I disagree - I think we are on the verge of another age of empires. I've said before that the greatest test for a civilisation is the way it handles its critic's. Britains handling of the hate preacher has been excruciating compared to the US methods and one wonders how long Obama can restrain himself over crap like the birther debate. Eventually staps have to be taken to protect our way of life and we start down the slippery slope. We already have a foot on it...

In addtion, democracy cannot possibly survive the increasing disparity between rich and poor and soon the only option for the poor will be to sell their labour to the rich in return for protection. Essentially feudalism.

Nationalism - no - empire building yes. My prediction? The USA and Russia are the new Romes and entering the Cesar era.. The republican dream is dying.

[Katman]

Again I agree with you here, you may not realise just how close to the truth you are though.



Ed, you believe in fairy tales.

You wouldn't know truth if it fucked you up the arse.

[Edbear]

Ed, you believe in fairy tales.

You wouldn't know truth if it fucked you up the arse.

I suppose you are thick enough not to notice you just offended Paul in NZ... <_<

[Paul in NZ]

I suppose you are thick enough not to notice you just offended Paul in NZ... <_<

No - I'm not offended at all?

[Edbear]

No - I'm not offended at all?

I don't think he realised I had just agreed with your post hence the inference.

[Banditbandit]

Oh he was very well known and the reason he was murdered was his exposing the hypocrisy of the Jewish Pharisees, so they broke their own laws and organised to have him tried for sedition, however, while Pilate found him innocent, he nevertheless handed him over to the Jews for death, probably in fear of causing a ruckus that would bring the Roman Govt. into it. He placated the Jews to preserve the peace.

Christ started the Christian congregation and by the time Paul came along it was well established, he just proved a force for advancing it.



http://media.fakeposters.com/results/2009/07/28/jbunvbu9yb.jpg

[Edbear]

I think this thread can be dumped in PD now...

[Akzle]

I disagree - I think we are on the verge of another age of empires.

... Essentially feudalism.

Nationalism - no - empire building yes. My prediction? The USA and Russia are the new Romes and entering the Cesar era.. The republican dream is dying.

i don't. i've heard white-capitalist history analalalalloguised to the great battles of old. where first is the cannon, then the archers, the cavalry charge... down to the age we are in now: the melée - every man for himself.

[RDJ]

i don't. i've heard white-capitalist history analalalalloguised to the great battles of old. where first is the cannon, then the archers, the cavalry charge... down to the age we are in now: the melée - every man for himself.

What're the differences from grey-, green- and mauve-capitalism?

[Akzle]

What're the differences from grey-, green- and mauve-capitalism?

i've never seen green or mauve cunts, whatever the fuck mauve is.
and the grey cunts are generally dead, or close enough to that it doesn't matter.

[Paul in NZ]

When the Jews actually lived according to their scriptures, they were prosperous and had peace between them and their surrounding neighbours and internal peace each one. Finances were organised fairly and no-one was left permanently indebted, heritances were preserved and women and children were respected and cherished.

Unfortunately, too often their greed and avarice won out over law, and finally when they murdered Christ they were rejected as the People of God. However, the Jewish nation refused to accept Christ and maintain they are still God's Chosen Nation. They remain in expectation of the Messiah right through to today.


I've almost got enough energy for this again...

None of the above is true...

You just cannot lump all the hebrews as 'Jews' and claim that... In the historical era we are mainly concerned with they had been continuously invaded and scrapped with just about everyone. The Hebrews changed slowly from a the more typical worship of multiple gods and settled on a single god Yahweh. It wasn't a unanimous verdict by any means but the powerful 'single god' prophets won the argument. The firsts Jewish kingdoms were destroyed and a large part of the population exiled to Babylon where the priests developed that thinking further. Yahweh went from a god of the hebrews in a hebrew land to a universal god that had a personal relationship with every believer. Later the Judean kingdom fought a very bloody war of liberation and its thought that due to the many (many) martyrs in this war the idea of a life after death was 'developed'. ie its a lot harder to convince some poor sap to go on a suicide mission with out the old life after death thing. Its a great way to manipulate the huddled masses by promising something no one is ever going to be able to prove you cant deliver.

After that came the greek conquests and the roman empire so you can hardly claim that they were peaceful when living by their scriptures as the scriptures were developing and they were always fighting.

As for christ being well known - actually you DON"T know that at all. Its assumed because of a few scrappy mentions in texts 70 to 100 years after his death. Its accepted that he was a historical figure (mainly because of the pasting you get if you question this 'fact'.) and that he was crucified by the Romans. Nothing unusual in that as the Romans were in general quite keen on horrible ways to kill people but to be fair they actually had a pretty decent justice system. But getting back to the point - as far as I'm aware there is not a scrap of evidence dating from the actual time that refers to him. If he was really significant I'm reasonably confident we would have more actual records. At the time its possible that his execution was no more noted by the authorities than that of any other of the loin cloth wearing nut jobs that wandered in from the desert.

Because of the Roman Empire - early christians were spread quickly around the med. As it spread there was considerable diversity in belief and prectise. It was people like Paul a couple of generations later who unified and codified this belief into a religion and a church BUT its important to realize that chirsts significance is as much an act of rebellion against the organized state religion of the time and a rejection over the power of the priests as anything else. The personal relationship with god idea is transferred to christ and out of the hands of the priest class. Its the development of the original idea but without the need of the priest to intercede with god on your behalf. You can be forgiven and it does not cost you anything other than faith. Much as Martin Luther stated later and much like the Pentecostals restated in our generation.

Your comments about the Pharisees is misleading. They were generally thought to be a popular and enlightened sect and in most cases favorable towards the christian ideal. The Sadducee's were the reactionary and entrenched priestly class hell bent on ruling everything. Religious argument was rife and often not ill mannered - the 'arguments' with the Pharisees can be interpreted as a closer relationship and indeed many of christs followers were Pharisees (if the stories are true).

Ed - I'm trying to argue from historical fact as much as is possible and you are arguing from belief. You assume you know 'facts' about this and that everyone else is wrong simply because it disagrees with your faith. There is never going to be a conclusion to this because you cannot have a discussion with someone who follows his faith blindly. You may not see it but to the general populace you are one step off strapping on a bomb vest and blowing up an abortion clinic.

[Edbear]

I've almost got enough energy for this again...

None of the above is true...

BIG SNIP TO SAVE SPACE...

indeed many of christs followers were Pharisees (if the stories are true).

Ed - I'm trying to argue from historical fact as much as is possible and you are arguing from belief. You assume you know 'facts' about this and that everyone else is wrong simply because it disagrees with your faith. There is never going to be a conclusion to this because you cannot have a discussion with someone who follows his faith blindly. You may not see it but to the general populace you are one step off strapping on a bomb vest and blowing up an abortion clinic.

Your post is coming from what is a common view among many historians, but which does not reflect a thorough examination of history from both secular and Biblical "sides". It is an overview and on the face of it muchly true.

My faith is not blind and JW's are actively encouraged to do as much personal research as possible and we don't simply go by what the WTS publishes.

Aside from that, history, culture and language are interests of mine and it was specifically a disgust of religion that started me off back when I was still in my teens. I regretted not taking more advantage of school as it meant more study while working, but nevertheless it has been a fascinating on still ongoing subject to research.

Yes, I do have extensive resources for reference, both secular and scriptural, on many topics to do with Jewish history. There is not a huge amount of secular reference, with much reliance on those such as Herodotus and Josephus however there are many archaelogical references available now to confirm dates and places as well as documented discoveries of tablets, stones, etc. with accounts of events written on them.

A lot of manuscripts now date back to within a few years of the originals and so far all have only confirmed the reliability of scriptural texts to today, with only a few minor errors that are able to be resolved by cross-referencing and using Interlinear translations of scripture to get the original words and meanings.

Perhaps one of the best arguments about the historicity of Christ is the simple fact that Christianity and belief in him is pretty much universal and if he was no more than any other historical figure of note, would be on par with them. No King, no Emperor, no scientist or philosopher has anywhere near the profile of Jesus Christ.

The RR thread has examined many subjects in depth and members both for and against the Bible or God have brought out a huge amount of reference and evidence. Wolf was good as history is his forte. ( I don't know how to put that mark above the e...)

[Brett]

I think this thread can be dumped in PD now...

I bailed on it many pages ago. Same shit, different thread now.

[oneofsix]

I bailed on it many pages ago. .

Many have said the same or similar in the past trouble is the buggers wont just play in their own sand pit and on top of that they have shed loads of oil.

[Edbear]

Maybe we can get back on topic...

How long does anyone think the cease-fire will last?

[oneofsix]

Maybe we can get back on topic...

How long does anyone think the cease-fire will last?

There's a cease-fire? :shit: (will that do as an answer?)

[Paul in NZ]

Maybe we can get back on topic...

How long does anyone think the cease-fire will last?

Until the resupply gets through....

[oneofsix]

Until the resupply gets through....

Thought there were still plenty of stones, hear they are good at stonings. Or has the world awoken and sending kids out to throw rocks at soldiers no longer get sympathy when the troops shoot back however launching a rocket from a populated area still works when the other side retaliates. :sick:

[Edbear]

Until the resupply gets through....

Both sides got itchy trigger fingers. Israel would welcome an "opportunity" to go in and sort them out personally.

Both sides were low on missiles, so you may not be too far off, there.

[Swoop]

Israel would welcome an "opportunity" to go in and sort them out personally.
Not too sure on that one.
Hamas was supposed to have around 12,000 missiles stashed away. Somewhere in the region of 400 Tamir anti-missile missiles were fired at incoming rockets (that were calculated to actually hit somewhere populated).
The odds are that there is still a good amount of terrorist rockets available, but IF there is a low stockpile of Tamirs a lot more civilians would be killed and only at that point a ground offensive would have to happen, to shut down the launch points and the mortar sites.

A cease fire is the best option for both combatants.

[Paul in NZ]

Not too sure on that one.
Hamas was supposed to have around 12,000 missiles stashed away. Somewhere in the region of 400 Tamir anti-missile missiles were fired at incoming rockets (that were calculated to actually hit somewhere populated).
The odds are that there is still a good amount of terrorist rockets available, but IF there is a low stockpile of Tamirs a lot more civilians would be killed and only at that point a ground offensive would have to happen, to shut down the launch points and the mortar sites.

A cease fire is the best option for both combatants.

Having the missiles is one thing but launchers and trained staff is another. Thanks to good intel (often from locals) the Israeli military has been very successful in, erm, shutting down, launch sites....

[Edbear]

A cease fire is the best option for both combatants.

Sure is... Even better is pragmatism, the only way anyone is going to stop the madness.

See anyone involved with this approach?

[Katman]

You may not see it but to the general populace you are one step off strapping on a bomb vest and blowing up an abortion clinic.

I reckon we should build a pretend one.

[mashman]

Rip down the fence and let the people move into the land separating the two. If they're leaders are going to be stupid enough to fight each other over, erm, erm, erm, perceived wrong doings, then let them have at it. Perhaps the people will stop their leaders from untertaking a bloody massacre in "their" name.

[Swoop]

Rip down the fence and let the people move into the land separating the two.
The fence is there to stop people with a waistcoat, made by Explosia, from wandering into town for a "banging good time"...

[Banditbandit]

Maybe we can get back on topic...

How long does anyone think the cease-fire will last?


There's a cease-fire? :shit: (will that do as an answer?)

Wot he said ..

Send them all to heaven and let Allah/Jehovah sort them out ..

[Akzle]

I reckon we should build a pretend one.

a pretend abortion clinic, or a pretend vesty-bomb?
either way.. i can't see much use

[SMOKEU]

Kill the fucking stupid snackbars.

[Madness]

Maybe we can get back on topic...


<img src="http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma3viqtvsN1qkulzco1_500.gif"/>

[Katman]

a pretend abortion clinic, or a pretend vesty-bomb?
either way.. i can't see much use

Well a pretend bomb wouldn't be much fucking good, would it?

[Akzle]

Well a pretend bomb wouldn't be much fucking good, would it?

and the uses of a pretend abortion clinic are...?

[Katman]

Hopefully a straggler might be along soon to explain it to you.

[puddytat]

and lo & behold ploddeth the 7 horseman of the Apocalypse
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/kLqkgxwa1Hk?list=PL43az_WjhU-iUMfxXwIt84dITvbx8W8eK&amp;hl=en_US" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[mashman]

and the uses of a pretend abortion clinic are...?


Hopefully a straggler might be along soon to explain it to you.

Sorry I'm late. A pretend abortion clinic is used for the employment of pretend doctors and associated staff. Not only does this drag the average wage of NZ above the, erm, last best average, it also provides 100% positive statistics for successful abortions. The affect on the jobless figures is astounding depending on the size of the clinic. You can employ thousands in there and it's an excellent investment for overseas investors. Hope that helps.

[MSTRS]

Is the area not a congealing slab of glass yet?

[Banditbandit]

and the uses of a pretend abortion clinic are...?

To clean up the results of pretend sex (i.e. masturbation) ?

[SMOKEU]

Apparently if you join Islam, they give you a free 10 virgin starter package.

[Banditbandit]

Apparently if you join Islam, they give you a free 10 virgin starter package.

So .. the only question is ... are you going to join Islam or are you one of the Virgins?



http://www.religifake.com/image/religion/small/1204/hello-pzy-nerd-muslim-seventytwo-virgins-religion-1335178765.jpg

[SMOKEU]

So .. the only question is ... are you going to join Islam or are you one of the Virgins?




I think I'll flag it.

[Swoop]

10 December, 2012: While the recent war with Hamas, in response to growing rocket attacks from Gaza, was condemned by UN investigators as Israeli aggression, Israelis backed the decision to attack and polls indicate that the current Israeli government would be re-elected when new elections are held early next year. All politics is local and people will elect a government that will defend them.

In Egypt, the elected Moslem Brotherhood government has become enormously unpopular because it attempted to neutralize the judiciary dominated by the previous dictatorship by simply declaring that the president could ignore the court rulings that stopped the government from operating. The judges are largely bought and paid for by the corrupt dictatorship which still has the cash, and control of the military, to thwart efforts by the new government to deal with the pervasive corruption and misrule. This was seen as a problem from the very beginning, but many Egyptians (and foreigners) believed it would somehow magically disappear.
Once the rebellious Egyptians accepted the military (one of the more corrupt organizations in Egypt) as an ally (for not firing on the demonstrators), the revolution was doomed. Although the new president replaced most of the leadership in the military, he simply replaced one bunch of corruptible officers with another that were also up for sale. Few senior officers are immune from the corruption or from the tempting offers from the wealthy officials and businessmen who want to keep the corrupt practices, which have strangled the Egyptian economy for decades, from continuing.

The Palestinians are also angry at the November 29th Israeli decision to build 3,000 more homes in the West Bank for Israeli settlers. This is all about Palestinian violence and Israeli politics. The Palestinians have consistently, since before Israel was founded in 1947, called for all Jews to be expelled from the Middle East. The Turks, who ran the region for centuries until 1918, would not do this, nor would Britain and France, which took over for a few decades until the former provinces of the Turkish Empire became independent again. Israel tried, for decades, to make a peace deal, but whenever they got close, the Palestinians, urged on by all Arab countries, turned to violence and calls for the destruction of Israel. That happened in 2000 and since then the Palestinians have split into Fatah (more corrupt, less Islamic) and Hamas (less corrupt, more Islamic) factions. Both groups continue to spew “death to the Jews” messages via their media outlets (with a more moderate tone in non-Arabic pronouncements). In response to the death threats from the Palestinians, many Israelis have backed Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Originally these were efforts by extremist groups to begin the process of annexing the West Bank to Israel. The most extreme of these groups want the Arabs expelled from this territory which, thousands of years ago was part of ancient Israel. The Israeli government has never backed the expulsion idea, but does support the settlements, if only because it makes the West Bank less of a threat to Israel.

Many Europeans see the settlements as the only obstacle to a Palestinian peace deal with Israel. Israelis see this European blindness as a return of the ancient European anti-Semitism. Any European trying to adopt the Israeli view of the Israel-Palestinian situation is shouted down in Europe. Most European diplomats, who have to deal with their Arab counterparts, know better, but also know it’s best to keep quiet about the realities of Middle Eastern politics. Israel faces a seemingly impossible situation with the Europeans, who ignore the fact that the Palestinians have broken every peace deal they ever made with Israel, while the Israelis have kept their end of these deals. The Palestinians openly call for the destruction of Israel, and the use of peace talks as a tactical ploy, not for the purpose of achieving a lasting peace. Israel has learned to just deal with all these mass delusions.

Hamas has begun stopping civilians from approaching the security fence. This became a popular way to protest against Israel after the November 21 ceasefire deal went into effect because the rumour spread that the Israeli troops would not fire at anyone trying to get through the fence and into Israel. The rumour was incorrect and although Israeli troops were slower to open fire, they eventually did if any Palestinians seemed on the verge of getting into Israel.

9 December, 2012: Italian customs officials, acting on a tip from Israeli intelligence found weapons hidden in a cargo container headed for Gaza via Egypt. An Egyptian was arrested in Italy in connection with this smuggling attempt. Iran is seeking new ways to smuggle weapons into Gaza now that Israel is going after the shipments to Sudan.

In Gaza Hamas celebrated its 25th anniversary with the first visit of its exiled leader, Khaled Mashaal. He was there because of the recent ceasefire deal with Israel, which explicitly forbids Israel from killing Hamas leaders. This will change when Hamas resumes its rocket attacks on Israel, but for now Mashaal is safe and declared that Hamas has won a great victory over Israel in its recent war and that Israel would eventually be destroyed. Mashaal repeated the pledge that Hamas would never recognize the existence of Israel. While Israel allowed Mashaal to visit safety, it reminded two senior leaders of Islamic Jihad (an Iran backed terror group that is a Hamas rival) that they were not covered by the peace deal immunity and would be breaking the ceasefire deal if they showed up in Gaza.
The two men stayed away after Egyptian officials confirmed the warning.

2 December, 2012: Ultra-orthodox religious leaders were calling on draft age men among their followers to resist new laws that make ultra-orthodox men eligible for conscription. These ultra-orthodox (Haredi) Jews now comprise about 14 percent of the population, and are the fastest growing portion of the population (followed by Arab Israelis). The Haredi are very poor (most men spend the bulk of their time in religious studies), but increasingly violent when it comes to imposing their customs (no traffic on the Sabbath, no advertising of women or women and men together on the same bus or public event) on non-Haredi Israelis. Street demonstrations are increasingly common, as is physical violence (stabbings and shootings). The Haredi believe their religious laws trump secular ones, and this increasingly brings them into violent conflict with the police, and their secular neighbours. For over half a century most Haredi men did not serve in the military and some Haredi sects believe that Israel should not exist. Growing anger from the Israelis who do serve in the military led to new laws reducing Haredi exemptions from conscription.
Israel is withholding $100 million a month in customs duties it collects for the Palestinian Authority (PA) until the Palestinians get current on their electricity bill. The Palestinians owe about $200 million for electricity and that will be deducted from the customs income until the bill is paid. In response to this cutoff, the Arab Gulf states have pledged to provide the Palestinian Authority with $100 million a month. A lot of this money will be stolen by PA officials, which is a source of much discontent among Palestinians and the donor states. For that reason, details of how, when and to who this $100 million will be paid were not detailed.

1 December, 2012: An explosion in Gaza was initially reported as Israeli tank fire but was later revealed to be an industrial accident. There were four casualties.

Now that the Palestinians have won recognition in the UN, they plan to prosecute Israel for war crimes (mainly related to defending themselves against Palestinian terrorism or attack). International law experts are warning the Palestinians that this could backfire because this leaves the Palestinians liable to prosecution as well and in any fair court the Palestinians would find themselves in a very disadvantageous position.
This will not stop Palestinian plans to press on for after all it is “God’s Will”.

[Banditbandit]

I think I'll flag it.

here you go then ... Flag of the Islamic Conference ...

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQYLuYlA5kkjpq-N0YcNiilGKAWXqtzvwstWucz4OVpwOLMQIVnW6zF5O-V

[Oscar]

10 December, 2012: -snip-

Did you write this?

[SMOKEU]

here you go then ... Flag of the Islamic Conference ...



Is that where they discuss the latest in bomb making technology?

[Banditbandit]

Is that where they discuss the latest in bomb making technology?

Naa ... that's where they discuss how to steal the latest bomb making technology from the West or get it free from the former Soviet Bloc ...

[puddytat]

as opposed to legally buying clusterbombs & mines...

[oneofsix]

as opposed to legally buying clusterbombs & mines...

clusterbombs and mines are illegal so you can't legally buy them or make them

[puddytat]

clusterbombs and mines are illegal so you can't legally buy them or make them

When did that happen? I thought the likes of the major powers didnt sigh up to it? Be stoked if they have...

[Oscar]

clusterbombs and mines are illegal so you can't legally buy them or make them

Not in Israel, the US, Russia, China (i.e. four out of the six top weapons making states in the world).

[oneofsix]

Not in Israel, the US, Russia, China (i.e. four out of the six top weapons making states in the world).

Typical :facepalm:

[Oscar]

Typical :facepalm:

The NZ Army was cleaning up IDF cluster bombs dropped on South Lebanonese villages a while back.

[Maha]

Instead of living in the middle bit, why not shift somewhere else...problem solved....out West perhaps?

[puddytat]

Yeah, great idea!! Now who would you want? The Jews or the Arabs?
Seriously though,what about farming out one or the other amongst western nations,it'd be way cheaper than constantly propping up an occupying force on one side, & aid on the other.
Say, send the Jews to New York & the Arabs to Aussie.

[scumdog]

clusterbombs and mines are illegal so you can't legally buy them or make them


Really?
SO who enforces that?:blink:

[SMOKEU]

Instead of living in the middle bit, why not shift somewhere else...problem solved....out West perhaps?

Then they can bring all their problems with them, like in the video below. Warning: this video is extremely disturbing and after watching it you will never be the same again. You have been warned.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THrltK9cGo8

[Banditbandit]

Fuck .. you don't have to wait for 2029 and the Moslems for that to happen ... Edit parts of these videos together - and you can see the same thing .. and this is white Christians doing it to each other in Northern Ireland !!!


http://www.reuters.com/video/2012/12/07/hillary-clinton-visits-northern-ireland?videoId=239735507


http://www.reuters.com/video/2012/12/03/union-flag-protest-wounded-at-least-five?videoId=239596571&videoChannel=2602

[SMOKEU]

Fuck .. you don't have to wait for 2029 and the Moslems for that to happen ... Edit parts of these videos together - and you can see the same thing .. and this is white Christians doing it to each other in Northern Ireland !!!



There are extremists from any religion, however, the number of Islamic extremists greatly exceeds that of all other religions combined. I say kill it with fire.

[puddytat]

Good luck Bro.....
What did Connor English say on that programme about good ideas for N.Z? "20 million population by 2030 would be good for the Economy", that was through increasing immigration.So will it be o.k if they are white christians?Most if not all nationalists align themselves with a Religion....
Good for the Economy....And fucking shit for the country.

[Zedder]

There are extremists from any religion, however, the number of Islamic extremists greatly exceeds that of all other religions combined. I say kill it with fire.

Your video was crap man, everyone knows the world will end this month. The Mayans said so....

[Banditbandit]

There are extremists from any religion, however, the number of Islamic extremists greatly exceeds that of all other religions combined.

Oh ?? And you get your information where ???

[SMOKEU]

Oh ?? And you get your information where ???

Bestgore.com and other such sites.

[Banditbandit]

Bestgore.com and other such sites.

Oh ... the suppository of knowledge then?

[SMOKEU]

Oh ... the suppository of knowledge then?

Yes, as well as Encyclopedia Dramatica (https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Muslim).

[mashman]

Your video was crap man, everyone knows the world will end this month. The Mayans said so....

I hope so, it's needed... although I'm still not really sure what time zone we're using. Is it going to be the 22nd here or the 21st. So confusing.

[Edbear]

Your video was crap man, everyone knows the world will end this month. The Mayans said so....


I hope so, it's needed... although I'm still not really sure what time zone we're using. Is it going to be the 22nd here or the 21st. So confusing.

Of course the Mayans said no such thing, it's just another example of not letting the facts get in the way of a good Armageddon scenario... :cool:

[Paul in NZ]

Of course the Mayans said no such thing, it's just another example of not letting the facts get in the way of a good Armageddon scenario... :cool:

What? Like those crazy Christians?

[Zedder]

I hope so, it's needed... although I'm still not really sure what time zone we're using. Is it going to be the 22nd here or the 21st. So confusing.

Yeah I know, it's really annoying this time zone thing. Those smart arse Mayans didn't factor that in did they, no wonder they died out.

[Zedder]

Of course the Mayans said no such thing, it's just another example of not letting the facts get in the way of a good Armageddon scenario... :cool:

It's absolutely true though Ed, Smokeu read it on the 'net.

[Edbear]

What? Like those crazy Christians?

Some "Christians" are way over the top, but lately people seem to be latching onto anything out of the ordinary.

An interviewee on National Radio yesterday confirmed Scientists' claims that within 40 years the fish stocks in the Pacific will be completely annihilated.

There are two key entities in the food chain, without either of which Man cannot survive. They are bees and fish/oceans. Both are dying at unprecedented, (and increasing), rates and beyond the ability of Mankind to do anything about it before it is too late.

Yup, Armageddon is coming and probably within our lifetimes even just going by the science alone.

[Edbear]

It's absolutely true though Ed, Smokeu read it on the 'net.

Oh, in that case I stand corrected, of course... :rolleyes:

[mashman]

Of course the Mayans said no such thing, it's just another example of not letting the facts get in the way of a good Armageddon scenario... :cool:

You see this



Your video was crap man, everyone knows the world will end this month. The Mayans said so....

and translate it as Armageddon. Was I talking about Armageddon? Or are you just throwing your assumptions around again? :nono:


Yeah I know, it's really annoying this time zone thing. Those smart arse Mayans didn't factor that in did they, no wonder they died out.

bwaaaa ha ha ha ha haaaaaa... they was saved by aliems, and some were returned following a great disaster that befell the earth... they didn't die out (some maya still exist). Get your facts right man.

[Edbear]

You see this

and translate it as Armageddon. Was I talking about Armageddon? Or are you just throwing your assumptions around again? :nono:

bwaaaa ha ha ha ha haaaaaa... they was saved by aliems, and some were returned following a great disaster that befell the earth... they didn't die out (some maya still exist). Get your facts right man.

Most poeple "translate" the Mayan prediction as some kind of Armageddon. The term is commonly used to describe the end of the world.

If you have a different view, feel free to explain it.

[oneofsix]

Most poeple "translate" the Mayan prediction as some kind of Armageddon. The term is commonly used to describe the end of the world.

If you have a different view, feel free to explain it.

Must be the most people you talk to Ed. Most all the ones I speak to only see the "Mayan prediction" as the end of the world and wonder what single event could do that, asteroid perhaps. Then again nearly all see it as rubbish and realise that the 21st 12 12 is also the summer/winter solstice and therefore accept it is most likely a cycle reset.

274651

[Edbear]

Must be the most people you talk to Ed. Most all the ones I speak to only see the "Mayan prediction" as the end of the world and wonder what single event could do that, asteroid perhaps. Then again nearly all see it as rubbish and realise that the 21st 12 12 is also the summer/winter solstice and therefore accept it is most likely a cycle reset.

274651

I really think we're splitting hairs here. :scratch:

The so-called prediction has been well enough explained by now that it would be surprising if anyone still believed it.

[mashman]

Most poeple "translate" the Mayan prediction as some kind of Armageddon. The term is commonly used to describe the end of the world.

If you have a different view, feel free to explain it.

Ah well... most people also believe all sorts of stupid things.

No, I won't explain it. Have another guess :)

[Edbear]

Ah well... most people also believe all sorts of stupid things.

No, I won't explain it. Have another guess :)

Ummm, my previous post..? :rolleyes:

[BoristheBiter]

You see this



and translate it as Armageddon. Was I talking about Armageddon? Or are you just throwing your assumptions around again? :nono:


What? Now that is a little violent for geeks at a convention isn't it?

[Zedder]

I really think we're splitting hairs here. :scratch:

The so-called prediction has been well enough explained by now that it would be surprising if anyone still believed it.

It's not true? Crap! I better do some Christmas shopping then. Hey Masho did ya hear about this?

[Banditbandit]

It's not true? Crap! I better do some Christmas shopping then. Hey Masho did ya hear about this?

So you'll swap one fairy story (Mayans predict the end of world) for another fairy story (Christianity and/or Santa Claus) ???



Ah well... most people also believe all sorts of stupid things.




Mashman is right !!!!

[mashman]

Ummm, my previous post..? :rolleyes:

hee hee... nope.

[mashman]

It's not true? Crap! I better do some Christmas shopping then. Hey Masho did ya hear about this?

I had a sneaking suspicion that the Mayan end of the world isn't actually the end of the world but the beginning of a new world... made to order I've been led to consider. De missus got chrimbo shopping anyway, so we're fully stocked up with tin foil hats and turkey in case we get a 2hrs 35 minute warning. I wasn't going to say and I apologise for any inconvenience caused.

[Zedder]

I had a sneaking suspicion that the Mayan end of the world isn't actually the end of the world but the beginning of a new world... made to order I've been led to consider. De missus got chrimbo shopping anyway, so we're fully stocked up with tin foil hats and turkey in case we get a 2hrs 35 minute warning. I wasn't going to say and I apologise for any inconvenience caused.

Thanks for the heads up.

[Banditbandit]

De missus got chrimbo shopping anyway, so we're fully stocked up with tin foil hats



I stocked up on some tin foil too .. but where did you get it in hats?


http://bnbharbor.com/room/Santa_stoned.jpg

[mashman]

I stocked up on some tin foil too .. but where did you get it in hats?

You wouldn't believe me if I told you :eek:

[BoristheBiter]

I had a sneaking suspicion that the Mayan end of the world isn't actually the end of the world but the beginning of a new world... made to order I've been led to consider. De missus got chrimbo shopping anyway, so we're fully stocked up with tin foil hats and turkey in case we get a 2hrs 35 minute warning. I wasn't going to say and I apologise for any inconvenience caused.

You silly fool the tinfoil hats are for the turkey.

I bet this Mayan calender is some guys mortgage payment, and 2012 is when he finally owns his own house.

[Edbear]

You silly fool the tinfoil hats are for the turkey.

I bet this Mayan calender is some guys mortgage payment, and 2012 is when he finally owns his own house.

Must have taken out 100% mortgage on it...

The whole world underwent change in '08 and there has been escalating unrest since the GFC hit. We are well into the toes of the image now. It seems it may be a coin toss as to what gets out of hand first, the Israel-Palestine issue, Syria, Iran or Nth Korea. Behind the scenes are China v Japan over territory, huge natural disasters exhausting relief funds and continuing battles over national and personal debt.

People clearly recognise that something fundamental has to change, the Governments recognise a fundamental change in international relations has to occur and everyone realises that environmentally Mankind is heading rapidly towards extinction.

Nobody wants this but nobody can change or stop it happening. The best efforts of all is only putting band-aids on small wounds. It requires a world-wide, concerted and intensive effort to turn around the headlong rush to global disaster.

People say confidently that it won't happen, that "Man will find a way!" History demonstrates that he hasn't to date and looking around, one can't point to signs he is doing anything yet.

[Zedder]

Must have taken out 100% mortgage on it...

The whole world underwent change in '08 and there has been escalating unrest since the GFC hit. We are well into the toes of the image now. It seems it may be a coin toss as to what gets out of hand first, the Israel-Palestine issue, Syria, Iran or Nth Korea. Behind the scenes are China v Japan over territory, huge natural disasters exhausting relief funds and continuing battles over national and personal debt.

People clearly recognise that something fundamental has to change, the Governments recognise a fundamental change in international relations has to occur and everyone realises that environmentally Mankind is heading rapidly towards extinction.

Nobody wants this but nobody can change or stop it happening. The best efforts of all is only putting band-aids on small wounds. It requires a world-wide, concerted and intensive effort to turn around the headlong rush to global disaster.

People say confidently that it won't happen, that "Man will find a way!" History demonstrates that he hasn't to date and looking around, one can't point to signs he is doing anything yet.

Most people are aware of the crap situation the worlds in , let's face it, the media love to shove it down our throats. However, let's start with something you wrote earlier about the "key entities" bees and fish. Scientists have discovered that rather than being some unexplained armageddon scenario with bees, it is some types of pesticides and commercial breeding that are the problem. So, the problem is being worked on now. Fish stocks are similar. Being worked on too. Other problems? Probably not being worked enough however they are being worked on. It's not all doom and gloom.

[Edbear]

Most people are aware of the crap situation the worlds in , let's face it, the media love to shove it down our throats. However, let's start with something you wrote earlier about the "key entities" bees and fish. Scientists have discovered that rather than being some unexplained armageddon scenario with bees, it is some types of pesticides and commercial breeding that are the problem. So, the problem is being worked on now. Fish stocks are similar. Being worked on too. Other problems? Probably not being worked enough however they are being worked on. It's not all doom and gloom.

It has always "been worked on," that's my point. Man has been "working" on improving life and society for thousands of years. Now, finally, he has reached a point where for the first time in history, he is in imminent danger of wiping himself out completely.

If you look up the research and current information from Science, generally the opinion is that it is too late to save the oceans, and the problem with "working on it" is the lack of time. Man has so far altered the balance of nature, that it is unrecoverable. Add to this the fact of global climate change and we are racing against time to save ourselves.

Let's look at one example of how Mankind "works on a problem". To date, he has destroyed over 90% of the world's rainforests and is cutting them down at the rate of a football field size chunk every second!

http://environment.nationalgeographic.com/environment/habitats/last-of-amazon/

20% in the last 40 years and increasing at a rate to destroy the next 20% in 20 years. Who is going to stop it? The same guy who cut down the last tree on Easter Island?

Yes, there is much ringing of hands and condemnation and cries of, "We must stop now!" They are not going to stop until there are no more trees to cut down and burn. Neither will they stop raping the oceans until there are no more fish to catch.

Have you heard about the Supercatchers? They take 1,000 tons at a time, each netting! One thousand tons of fish each net cast for each Superboat. Completely indiscriminate of species.

One third of the commercial catch world-wide is dumped as rubbish. Are they going to stop and change?

Do I sound likea doomsdayer? Why is that? These are readily available plain facts to anyone who looks it up. It is what is really happening while we hide our heads in the sand and live in a fool's paradise, thinking it will all be okay if I don't think about it.

NZ has it tough..? NZ is a paradise of plenty compared to the rest of the world.

[oneofsix]

It has always "been worked on," that's my point. Man has been "working" on improving life and society for thousands of years. Now, finally, he has reached a point where for the first time in history, he is in imminent danger of wiping himself out completely.


I had to stop there. What a load of rubbish and a repeat of what was said back in the 50's and why some doom and gloom "scientists" (that's a laugh) brought out the dooms day clock. A clock that has been changed to now include climate change as well as the original nuclear holocaust. I bet there was a fucking cave man predicting world wide destruction when one of the tribe worked out now to make fire.

[Edbear]

I had to stop there. What a load of rubbish and a repeat of what was said back in the 50's and why some doom and gloom "scientists" (that's a laugh) brought out the dooms day clock. A clock that has been changed to now include climate change as well as the original nuclear holocaust. I bet there was a fucking cave man predicting world wide destruction when one of the tribe worked out now to make fire.

You obviously missed the rest. That's okay, you keep your head in the sand, she'll be right, nothing new here, nothing is changing or going to change, Man will "find a way" and your blissful life will continue on, as will the lives of your children and Grandchildren...

Just be careful not to look anything up and by all means, avoid reading anything...

[oneofsix]

You obviously missed the rest. That's okay, you keep your head in the sand, she'll be right, nothing new here, nothing is changing or going to change, Man will "find a way" and your blissful life will continue on, as will the lives of your children and Grandchildren...

Just be careful not to look anything up and by all means, avoid reading anything...

You know Ed sometimes you are such an arse but you have been told this already. When I read "once upon a time" I don't have to read the lot to know it is most likely a fairy tale. I've read the biblical accounts of doom and gloom too. Can you honestly say in your long live this is the first doom and gloom time? Really? You didn't listen to your parents tales? Or does it only count if it is in the church magazine? Humans have had the ability ot wipe out themselves and all other life on earth since mid last centenary, at least if we do it by climate the planet and some life forms will survive, not quite the biblical end of the world.

[Edbear]

You know Ed sometimes you are such an arse but you have been told this already. When I read "once upon a time" I don't have to read the lot to know it is most likely a fairy tale. I've read the biblical accounts of doom and gloom too. Can you honestly say in your long live this is the first doom and gloom time? Really? You didn't listen to your parents tales? Or does it only count if it is in the church magazine? Humans have had the ability ot wipe out themselves and all other life on earth since mid last centenary, at least if we do it by climate the planet and some life forms will survive, not quite the biblical end of the world.

Oh? Can you please point to anywhere I have mentioned the Bible here?

[oneofsix]

Oh? Can you please point to anywhere I have mentioned the Bible here?

you didn't, I did.

[Edbear]

you didn't, I did.

Perzackery! You may also have noticed that the people I refer to are not religious either.

You seem to have difficulty with the idea that qualified people of science, ecology and politics are predicting the end of mankind in the very near future irrespective of any religious or Biblical opinion.

You deny the scientific and environmental facts in your face because you are prejudiced against religion, or is it only because I am the one posting them?

As I said, anyone can see these articles and find the facts for themselves- how difficlut is it to read National Geographic, or Google science on the state of the world's environment? But many are as you are and simply ignore and deny what is clearly true as it doesn't fit your utopean dream world.

[george formby]

If you want a fundamental perspective on Western attitudes to the future, what is really happening in the world & what most individuals are doing about it, pop down to the local Warehouse after you have read this.

[mashman]

I had to stop there. What a load of rubbish and a repeat of what was said back in the 50's and why some doom and gloom "scientists" (that's a laugh) brought out the dooms day clock. A clock that has been changed to now include climate change as well as the original nuclear holocaust. I bet there was a fucking cave man predicting world wide destruction when one of the tribe worked out now to make fire.

Please see my avatar for an explanation of your post.

[mashman]

People say confidently that it won't happen, that "Man will find a way!" History demonstrates that he hasn't to date and looking around, one can't point to signs he is doing anything yet.

Find me someone willing to invest in my time and that of one other and I'll do something about it :yes:

[Edbear]

If you want a fundamental perspective on Western attitudes to the future, what is really happening in the world & what most individuals are doing about it, pop down to the local Warehouse after you have read this.

And KFC on payday, and Winz on Monday when they realise they have nothing left for rent and food... :yes:


Please see my avatar for an explanation of your post.

Well explained, actually...

[oneofsix]

Perzackery! You may also have noticed that the people I refer to are not religious either.

You seem to have difficulty with the idea that qualified people of science, ecology and politics are predicting the end of mankind in the very near future irrespective of any religious or Biblical opinion.

You deny the scientific and environmental facts in your face because you are prejudiced against religion, or is it only because I am the one posting them?

As I said, anyone can see these articles and find the facts for themselves- how difficlut is it to read National Geographic, or Google science on the state of the world's environment? But many are as you are and simply ignore and deny what is clearly true as it doesn't fit your utopean dream world.

Nope, no difficulty with the idea that qualified people of whatever are predicting the end of the world, as stated they have been doing this for ages and even invented a special clock for the same. For some scientists science is their religion. What I am against is the common human failing of jumping on the band wagon.
Just because they are qualified people of whatever doesn't make them right and hasn't in the past. More likely they are not seeing the forest because they are too close to the trees. Just like we have a poster at work about all the stuff scientists have invented, scientist haven't invented shit, other people have just scientists discoveries to invent stuff. So likewise these scientist understand their science very well but don't expect them to be able to see their way out of the maze they built themselves, that will be a back yard tinker or a engineer or technician.

[Edbear]

Find me someone willing to invest in my time and that of one other and I'll do something about it :yes:

You and many others, I'm afraid. But you're pushing water uphill with a rake if you think you have any show of stopping the saws and bulldozers in the Amazon, or the 20 or so Supercatchers in the oceans along with the thousands of "merely huge" fishing boats raping the seas. :bye:

People have been trying to stop bottom dredging for years.

[Banditbandit]

http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/keep-calm-the-hobbit-movie-funny.jpg

[Edbear]

Nope, no difficulty with the idea that qualified people of whatever are predicting the end of the world, as stated they have been doing this for ages and even invented a special clock for the same. For some scientists science is their religion. What I am against is the common human failing of jumping on the band wagon.
Just because they are qualified people of whatever doesn't make them right and hasn't in the past. More likely they are not seeing the forest because they are too close to the trees. Just like we have a poster at work about all the stuff scientists have invented, scientist haven't invented shit, other people have just scientists discoveries to invent stuff. So likewise these scientist understand their science very well but don't expect them to be able to see their way out of the maze they built themselves, that will be a back yard tinker or a engineer or technician.

http://webecoist.momtastic.com/2008/11/29/rainforests-deforestation/

http://environment.nationalgeographic.com/environment/photos/rainforest-deforestation/

You talk derogoratively of scientists? Are you the only one who really knows what is happening in the world? Do you have special information no-one else has, or are you just a dreamer?

[mashman]

You and many others, I'm afraid. But you're pushing water uphill with a rake if you think you have any show of stopping the saws and bulldozers in the Amazon, or the 20 or so Supercatchers in the oceans along with the thousands of "merely huge" fishing boats raping the seas. :bye:

People have been trying to stop bottom dredging for years.

Prove it in one country and the rest of the world will follow. That's usually the argument against what I purport as the solution. Prove it. So, I will, I just need funding. I'm not overly surprised that there are those who understand the fundamentals of "my society", however I am surprised at how many there are. They're from all walks of life. Another fundamental is that people will follow whoever is elected to lead them. Although I agree that the hardest part will be getting people to enter into the discussion in the first place. I guess it depends on what people would prefer and I'm confident that there's more of an army of "me" than there are of "them". Ironically it needs money and the will to make a fool of oneself. Given what's at stake, the risk is worth it and I'll happily be the idiot that pushes water uphill. Best thing about the slow push up is that it comes down extremely fast and changes the landscape beyond compare at exactly the same rate.

That sounds rude.

[Zedder]

You and many others, I'm afraid. But you're pushing water uphill with a rake if you think you have any show of stopping the saws and bulldozers in the Amazon, or the 20 or so Supercatchers in the oceans along with the thousands of "merely huge" fishing boats raping the seas. :bye:

People have been trying to stop bottom dredging for years.

Felling of the rainforest has been dramatically reduced (over 2/3) as has bottom trawling for fish (restrictions in place since 2004) as I wrote before, it's being worked on. Unfortunately, it all takes time. Do we have time? Who really knows? But it's not time to give up.

[george formby]

You and many others, I'm afraid. But you're pushing water uphill with a rake if you think you have any show of stopping the saws and bulldozers in the Amazon, or the 20 or so Supercatchers in the oceans along with the thousands of "merely huge" fishing boats raping the seas. :bye:

People have been trying to stop bottom dredging for years.

In the scheme of things the Supercatchers are just eye catching more than damaging. It's the hundreds of thousands of smaller boats doing the real damage. I notice krill oil being advertised on the telly for it's health benefits, a corner stone of all fish & cetacean populations, now in a bottle for $20. The many kg of bait fish required to add 1kg of weight to a farmed fish is just nuts too & they are screaming for more fish farms. Greedy bastards.

Have a fossick on the interwebs & read about the failure of mollusc farms (mussels, oysters) in Canada, ocean acidification is stopping them from growing shells. Scary shit!

Knew i should have stayed away from this thread, got the glums now.

[george formby]

Felling of the rainforest has been dramatically reduced (over 2/3) as has bottom trawling for fish (restrictions in place since 2004) as I wrote before, it's being worked on. Unfortunately, it all takes time. Do we have time? Who really knows? But it's not time to give up.

The amount of fish landed annually is still increasing. Our technology is getting better so we can fish almost anywhere now. I worked on a trawler in the Southern Ocean & it could swim a net too target specific schools & species of fish up & down the gullies in a trench 1500 mtr down from more than a 6 kms away. In 65 knot winds.... interestingly they could hold the net mouth a couple of feet off the bottom to prevent bull dozing the sea bed.
The computers on board could not only identify the species but also average size of fish & the weight of the school. The accompanying scientists freely admitted that even on such a state of the art boat, fishing "sustainably", all they got from their data was more questions.

[Zedder]

The amount of fish landed annually is still increasing. Our technology is getting better so we can fish almost anywhere now. I worked on a trawler in the Southern Ocean & it could swim a net too target specific schools & species of fish up & down the gullies in a trench 1500 mtr down from more than a 6 kms away. In 65 knot winds.... interestingly they could hold the net mouth a couple of feet off the bottom to prevent bull dozing the sea bed.
The computers on board could not only identify the species but also average size of fish & the weight of the school. The accompanying scientists freely admitted that even on such a state of the art boat, fishing "sustainably", all they got from their data was more questions.

Catch sharing, targetting new species to give exisiting ones time to rebuild and increased mesh sizes have all helped to manage the fish stocks more sustainably though.

[mashman]

Catch sharing, targetting new species to give exisiting ones time to rebuild and increased mesh sizes have all helped to manage the fish stocks more sustainably though.

Says who?...

[Zedder]

Says who?...

The aliens.

[Edbear]

Catch sharing, targetting new species to give exisiting ones time to rebuild and increased mesh sizes have all helped to manage the fish stocks more sustainably though.

No, these are small band-aid measures. If they want to stop the complete annihilation of all fish stocks within the next 40 years, as the interviewee on National Radio talked about the other day, they must stop catching fish now.

Same with the rainforests, it will take drastic action and extreme measures to make a real difference, not bits and pieces. The rate of illegal deforestation is of major concern as it is with fishing. Forming agreements and making laws is fine, but on this scale of operation the companies obeying the law and trying to act conservatively are outnumbered by those who rape and pillage indiscriminately, or at least exceed their quotas by many times over. Even the NZ Fisheries are finding sad examples of illegal fishing and catching out of and over quota.

As has been mentioned, it's not just the huge catcher boats it is the literally hundreds of thousands of smaller ones. All claim they need to fish for their livelihood and for increasing world food demands. Problem is, the Earth's resources are finite and running out as the Earth cannot replace or recover at anywhere near the rate at which the stocks are being exhausted.

Same with pollution, the Earth has amazing powers of recovery given a chance, sadly it is not being given that chance. The increasing world population is being exceeded by increasing demand for higher standards of living, leading to rapidly increasing production of goods and services at the expense of sustainability, both economically and environmentally.

People here and in much of the Western world, need to get out more and see the world for themselves. Go to Soweto, Jo'berg, or most African nations and cities and towns. Go to China and have a good look around, go to Europe. Go to the Asian nations and see beyond the tourist spots. Tour India and Pakistan. Go with eyes open. Go to the US and look at their financial situation, both Governmental and private.

We are genuinely in a paradise and insulated from most of the downside of the rest of the world here. Our lives are the exception, not the rule for living on this planet.