Brainless Broads Babbling Bullshit! [Archive]

FJRider

7th January 2013, 21:39

If that means making it illegal to overload a quad bike, then put a drunk in charge of it, I'm all for it.
Oops silly me, we already have those laws...

Most quad bikes were only designed for one person.

Considering the number of them in the country ... I'm surprised more people aren't killed.

As few are registered ... no accurate figures are available on how many are actually being used in NZ.

And because of the numbers ... any attempt to register/license them (even for just farm/off road work) would be pointless.

Oh wait ... This is New Zealand ... more pointless rules will be welcomed ...

FJRider

7th January 2013, 21:44

I hope you aren't referring to my small inside leg measurement..........or my homosexuality!

I have not referred to either in the past. Nor will I (intend to) do so in future. You however ... are free to refer to both as often as you like.

idb

7th January 2013, 21:45

I have not referred to either in the past. Nor will I (intend to) do so in future. You however ... are free to refer to both as often as you like.

I've said too much already............

Woodman

7th January 2013, 21:47

We need more warning stickers on everything.
Warning stickers and signs.

Too many stickers and warning signs will cause anxiety and related mental health issues.

Ban everything.

FJRider

7th January 2013, 21:48

I've said too much already............

I get accused of that too ...

flyingcrocodile46

7th January 2013, 21:50

We need to reverse the PC trend. We can't afford the ever accelerating cost of compliance with escalating number of regulations and restrictions that are born from a drive for more and more political/societal correctness, and which are often of questionable cost benefit and which often caters for infrequently (in the big picture) occurring scenarios.

We can't afford to be world PC leaders. NZ is the second highest consumer of lawyers services ($ per capita) in the world (the US in #1). Why? Is it because the government either directly or indirectly employs (or subsidises the cost of) over half of NZ's lawyer fees?

idb

7th January 2013, 21:54

We need to reverse the PC trend. We can't afford the ever accelerating cost of compliance with escalating number of regulations and restrictions that are born from a drive for more and more political/societal correctness, and which are often of questionable cost benefit and cater for infrequently (in the big picture) occurring scenarios.

You've put some thought into this haven't you?

More regulations wouldn't have prevented this incident happening.
It looks like idiocy, which we've all done and people will always do.

flyingcrocodile46

7th January 2013, 22:17

You've put some thought into this haven't you?

More regulations wouldn't have prevented this incident happening.
It looks like idiocy, which we've all done and people will always do.

That's right. We should look at it, say 'dumbass' or 'bugger', shrug and move on, rather than spending money making, enforcing and complying with more and more rules tailored for a small percentage of dumbass's or rarely occurring events. If a victim looks to need a hand, let the people he works,plays,lives with or among decide if they want to chip in a few $ to help him/her out. Stop increasing the spending of our hard earned ill afforded taxes on building and running an ever more and more comprehensive and unprofitable, insurance scheme/safety net service through expensive regulatory control. The machine is outta control.

gammaguy

8th January 2013, 01:29

reading most of the drowning/crashing/getting run over/murdered/bashed/ headlines over the xmas/new year period,one common denominator stands tall above the others

idiots and alcohol

so lets ban those mmmkay?

unstuck

8th January 2013, 05:20

I have destroyed 3 quads, so I must be a lucky idiot.:2thumbsup

scumdog

8th January 2013, 05:50

That's right. We should look at it, say 'dumbass' or 'bugger', shrug and move on, rather than spending money making, enforcing and complying with more and more rules tailored for a small percentage of dumbass's or rarely occurring events. If a victim looks to need a hand, let the people he works,plays,lives with or among decide if they want to chip in a few $ to help him/her out. Stop increasing the spending of our hard earned ill afforded taxes on building and running an ever more and more comprehensive and unprofitable, insurance scheme/safety net service through expensive regulatory control. The machine is outta control.

Trouble is, the Govt picks up the tab when idiocy strikes and people get hurt.

And they don't like doing that, they don't want to pay.

So some brain-box somewhere trys to figure out ways to stop this idiocy.

It won't work, his raw material is homo sapiens, chock full of idiocy.

Berries

8th January 2013, 06:04

You can't do anything for the piss heads, I see Darwin missed an opportunity here. But you could do something for the farmers. The family run a few animals on a hilly farm in Clutha and they don't allow quads because too many farmers cripple and kill themselves on them. Get a Suzuki Carry. More loadspace so dead sheep or spray gear no problem, complete weather protection and a radio and if the going gets tricky there is a door, a roof and a seatbelt that might just stop you falling out and getting rolled on and then waiting for 24 hours upside down in a gully before your life finally drains away from you.

You do look fucking stupid driving one but on the plus side you can take it down to Liquorland to get a crate and not get too many looks. And paddle tyres are great for donuts.

And if you do want to get on the razz you can get four in the front and at least 12 and a BBQ in the back. Apparently.

oldrider

8th January 2013, 07:13

The road to Hell is paved with none enforceable and obsolete rules, lets just make some more! :brick:

bogan

8th January 2013, 07:54

Trouble is, the Govt picks up the tab when idiocy strikes and people get hurt.

And they don't like doing that, they don't want to pay.

So some brain-box somewhere trys to figure out ways to stop this idiocy.

It won't work, his raw material is homo sapiens, chock full of idiocy.

Problem is, legislating for idiocy only enables it, then you have to legislate some more!

Apparently, back home (CHB) they have spotters driving round looking for farmers on quadbikes (or two wheelers I guess) not wearing helmets and giving fines; which is weird cos I thought most serious quad bike injuries were spinal?

Grizzo

8th January 2013, 09:16

Health and saftey....I mean moron protection summed up here:yes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAnGYfnFz9I

Zedder

8th January 2013, 10:33

Trouble is, the Govt picks up the tab when idiocy strikes and people get hurt.

And they don't like doing that, they don't want to pay.

So some brain-box somewhere trys to figure out ways to stop this idiocy.

It won't work, his raw material is homo sapiens, chock full of idiocy.

There's a real danger some well meaning "bright spark" will eventually come up with an IQ-ometer for testing drivers.

Then shortly after, there will be only robot controlled vehicles available...

schrodingers cat

8th January 2013, 11:08

Scuba_Steve

8th January 2013, 11:23

Trouble is, the Govt picks up the tab when idiocy strikes and people get hurt.

And they don't like doing that, they don't want to pay.

So some brain-box somewhere trys to figure out ways to stop this idiocy.

It won't work, his raw material is homo sapiens, chock full of idiocy.

all at a cost far in excess of just paying out for the idiots in the 1st place... But hey it's from that financial "bucket" not this one so that's ok

doc

8th January 2013, 11:44

At least it will give you something to do down in Balclutha. Lookin forward to the "Better work stories " from this

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 12:03

all at a cost far in excess of just paying out for the idiots in the 1st place... But hey it's from that financial "bucket" not this one so that's ok

Prevention is 1/100th the cost of treatment.

That aside, Farmers are fucking morons and operate out of the view of the rest of NZ, Instead of allowing them to continue killing themselves and their children at a cost to the taxpayers (well, death is cheap, they can continue to kill themselves, Go easy on the kids though fuckballs) lets just tell them to get fucked, Ban farm quads, Make the useless fuckwits ride horses. Then something in the equation will actually have a brain.

BigAl

8th January 2013, 12:14

bogan

8th January 2013, 12:24

The first place I'd be looking at to improve Quad safety would be the tyres. Those low pressure balloons they favour, whilst great for traction on greasy shitty cow lanes, are lethal when they tuck under on hill country.

Remember not so long ago they were going to make roll-over protection mandetory - until it was pointed out that the resultant raising of the COG would make the things less stable...

Then you just raise the required gradient slightly higher for them to tip, maybe less will tip, but those that do will have a harder fall. Just look at how many tractors get rolled every year.

Considering how many hours are clocked up on quads, it wouldn't surprise me if they were statistically safer than showering...

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 12:30

\

Considering how many hours are clocked up on quads, it wouldn't surprise me if they were statistically safer than showering...

That conclusion can only be reached if you failed to risk into account. And if risk isn't taken into account then the conclusion is meaningless.

Scuba_Steve

8th January 2013, 12:36

Prevention is 1/100th the cost of treatment.

That aside, Farmers are fucking morons and operate out of the view of the rest of NZ, Instead of allowing them to continue killing themselves and their children at a cost to the taxpayers (well, death is cheap, they can continue to kill themselves, Go easy on the kids though fuckballs) lets just tell them to get fucked, Ban farm quads, Make the useless fuckwits ride horses. Then something in the equation will actually have a brain.

prevention maybee, but paying some idiot in a suit to come up with retarded "prevention" ideas (like Hi-Vis) does not.
I'm assuming too by your suggestion you're not aware of just how high up the injury chart horse riders are??? And that's without the booze

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 12:44

prevention maybee, but paying some idiot in a suit to come up with retarded "prevention" ideas (like Hi-Vis) does not.
I'm assuming too by your suggestion you're not aware of just how high up the injury chart horse riders are??? And that's without the booze

Got me there, I'll admit complete ignorance on the risk involved and incident rate in riding horses.

That aside, I like hi-vis gear, ever done an emergency drill on a large site where you have had to find a person not wearing a hi-vis?

bogan

8th January 2013, 12:52

That conclusion can only be reached if you failed to risk into account. And if risk isn't taken into account then the conclusion is meaningless.

Conclusion? A conclusion can also only be reached with data, I just said such a conclusion would not surprise me if the risk was hours based. If you want to find the data to compare, you'd probably be the first...

Got me there, I'll admit complete ignorance on the risk involved and incident rate in riding horses.

That aside, I like hi-vis gear, ever done an emergency drill on a large site where you have had to find a person not wearing a hi-vis?

I think this shows the way things are going, if there's an emergency (or drill) you get the fuck off the site, then there's no need to search at all! Makes more sense, but doesn't account for morons who ignore the emergency.

Katman

8th January 2013, 12:53

While I'm not making any assumptions on the state of the quads in the recent spate of accidents, there certainly needs to be something done about the standard of farm bikes in this country.

There are countless death traps out there being used every day.

Half the time it's not the farmer using the bike either - it's their unsuspecting farm-hand.

FJRider

8th January 2013, 12:58

Remember not so long ago they were going to make roll-over protection mandetory - until it was pointed out that the resultant raising of the COG would make the things less stable...

I know of two quad bikes with roll bars front and back. The height of both is 30 cm's higher than the Handle bars. Both owners have rolled their bikes over on top of themselves at some stage ... and been able to crawl out from under it. One suffered a broken arm and was bleeding badly. Had the bars not been fitted ... he'd have died.

The roll bars you mentioned were roll cages.

With all the deaths in car accidents ... I haven't heard a call for roll bars required to be fitted in them .... Or for tougher regulation on who can operate them.

And considering all the total hours that quad bikes are being used in this country each year ... the death rate isn't that bad.

skippa1

8th January 2013, 13:19

what they(OSH) need to do is immediately implement the use of a hard hat, gloves, safety glasses and a high viz jacket when riding a quad. The farm needs to have a hazard register, weekly toolbox meetings, monthly health and safety meetings, an H&S noticeboard with the latest meeting minutes posted on it, a PPE issue register, training records etc. Then if there is an accident, they should prosecute the shit out of the person responsible for the accident. Ideally that should be the owner of the farm (not the operator of the bike) and he should be informed of the intention to prosecute (read persecute) him on the day before the 6 month time limit for initiating such actions expires. Then they should subject him to a further 6 months of investigation, legal cost, disrupted business and personal stress. Then fine him say.......$1 or 200,000 for causing the death through his failure to ensure the employee or share milker was kept totally safe at all times.

Swoop

8th January 2013, 13:22

More rules and regulations, that's the answer!
The good old kiwi way...:pinch:

FJRider

8th January 2013, 13:33

skippa1

8th January 2013, 13:37

Why not just hold the operator of the (any) vehicle responsible for THEIR actions ... too easy .. ??? :scratch:

ahhh we really need that sarcasm icon don't we......my point exactly. There is no such thing as personal responsibility anymore

Katman

8th January 2013, 13:40

Why not just hold the operator of the (any) vehicle responsible for THEIR actions ... too easy .. ??? :scratch:

When your boss says "get on that thing and ride it to there" many employees wouldn't think to tell them "get fucked - I ain't going on that thing".

FJRider

8th January 2013, 13:49

When your boss says "get on that thing and ride it to there" many employees wouldn't think to tell them "get fucked - I ain't going on that thing".

Most employee's ... if given the choice of walk or ride. Most ... would demand to ride.

Katman

8th January 2013, 13:52

Most employee's ... if given the choice of walk or ride. Most ... would demand to ride.

They have the right to expect that they're not being placed on a death trap though.

FJRider

8th January 2013, 14:02

They have the right to expect that they're not being placed on a death trap though.

I have memories of my youth (very distant memories) and my first excursion in (driving) the farms series one Land Rover ...

It was already over 20 years old then. All farm vehicles can be death traps.

If a farm hand has ridden one a few times ... confidence tells them ... what could go wrong ???

Just the same way NOOB's get after the get their restricted license. And more so with the full license in their pocket.

idb

8th January 2013, 14:09

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 14:44

Conclusion? A conclusion can also only be reached with data, I just said such a conclusion would not surprise me if the risk was hours based. If you want to find the data to compare, you'd probably be the first...

I think this shows the way things are going, if there's an emergency (or drill) you get the fuck off the site, then there's no need to search at all! Makes more sense, but doesn't account for morons who ignore the emergency.

You fire the morons who ignore the drill or at the very least remove them from site, That aside, the scenario is based on someone who has been hurt in the incident that caused the evacuation, Hence the need for a head count,and a rescue strategy.

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 14:47

More rules and regulations, that's the answer!
The good old kiwi way...:pinch:

What NZ needs is a massive upskilling in the workplace by way of training, Until then all the safety systems in the world won't help as Kiwis are too ignorant to realize just how shit they do things in the work place.

And compounding the issue is the good old kiwi way of insisting on staying ignorant.

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 14:51

Are you a townie perchance?

Been riding and racing quads since I was knee high, Back when the cutting edge of technology was an ATC 110, Have also spent significant time on rural properties and industries in a professional and recreational capacity.

Based on my experience, I'd make the fuckers walk.

And just for the record, I hold a diploma in Health and Safety and I'm a qualified trainer and Assessor.

Now, who wants to hate me?

Lmfao.

Coolz

8th January 2013, 15:39

scumdog

8th January 2013, 16:02

That's the mentality that will get motorbikes banned from the roads.

Surely H.B m,ust have been trolling with his post...surely???

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 16:12

That's the mentality that will get motorbikes banned from the roads.

hmmm, fair point, although a farm is a place of work, are you employed to ride your motorcycle on the road?

Were you given instruction on likely hazards, given training to meet the requirements of the job, and is the bike of suitable design and condition for the tasks?

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 16:13

Surely H.B m,ust have been trolling with his post...surely???

I like to blur the lines.....

I like the bit where I attributed the higher intelligence to the horse.

kiwi cowboy

8th January 2013, 16:21

Flat farms only will be allowed now. What we need instead is tougher idiots ..

You calling me tough or an idiot then fella????????.
I beeen on ours last 2 days ON THE HILLS AND ALL and im still alive (would use the emotocon for the finger but cant for some reason).

FJRider

8th January 2013, 16:26

You calling me tough or an idiot then fella????????.
I beeen on ours last 2 days ON THE HILLS AND ALL and im still alive (would use the emotocon for the finger but cant for some reason).

Sorta speaks for itself really ... ;)

Next silly question .. ???

Road kill

8th January 2013, 16:27

Got me there, I'll admit complete ignorance on the risk involved and incident rate in riding horses.

That aside, I like hi-vis gear, ever done an emergency drill on a large site where you have had to find a person not wearing a hi-vis?

Not as high as for Motorcycles.

Carefull what you wish for.

kiwi cowboy

8th January 2013, 16:29

Sorta speaks for itself really ... ;)

Next silly question .. ???

Must be an idiot then cos you diddnt answer the question:bash::bash:

FJRider

8th January 2013, 16:36

Must be an idiot then cos you diddnt answer the question:bash::bash:

If idiots are dieing ... and you are alive ... :beer:

But who am I to argue with you ... ;)

kiwi cowboy

8th January 2013, 16:38

Prevention is 1/100th the cost of treatment.

That aside, Farmers are fucking morons and operate out of the view of the rest of NZ, Instead of allowing them to continue killing themselves and their children at a cost to the taxpayers (well, death is cheap, they can continue to kill themselves, Go easy on the kids though fuckballs) lets just tell them to get fucked, Ban farm quads, Make the useless fuckwits ride horses. Then something in the equation will actually have a brain.

What the fuck are you smokin dipshit?.

of the last three accidents one was a sixteen year old rode of a cliff and one was a load of tossers pissed riding around dunes - now how does that relate to farmers

If the stats were put out on how many accidents were farmers as apposed to recreational users i think you be supprised.

kiwi cowboy

8th January 2013, 16:39

If idiots are dieing ... and you are alive ... :beer:

But who am I to argue with you ... ;)

argue away please.
must spread rep before giving to fj.

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 16:49

now how does that relate to farmers?

Recreational use falls outside the jurisdiction of workplace health and safety, Unless its done at a place of work ie: a farm.

Tell me, How many farmers have had formal training in the use of atv's?

close to none?

Hence the level of competence is low, while the level of ignorance is off the scale.

For the record, Training should consist of more then, here's the throttle, heres the brake, don't fuck it up, and if you do its a box of beer.

Agricultural accidents are one of the reasons NZ health and Safety stats are so poor.

FJRider

8th January 2013, 16:55

If the stats were put out on how many accidents were farmers as apposed to recreational users i think you be suprised.

We just won't talk about the moron bikers ... that just go out for the occasional fang on the weekends and crash.

But we'll talk about the moron farmers that use them seven days a week. For years on end ... with no issues. One makes a mistake and is killed.

Then the call comes for Quads to be banned.

If we compare the stats of those numbers of persons on quads getting killed ... to those killed on the two wheeled bikes (on or off the road) we will see which type of bikes should be banned.

kiwi cowboy

8th January 2013, 17:08

Recreational use falls outside the jurisdiction of workplace health and safety, Unless its done at a place of work ie: a farm.

Tell me, How many farmers have had formal training in the use of atv's?

close to none?

Hence the level of competence is low, while the level of ignorance is off the scale.

For the record, Training should consist of more then, here's the throttle, heres the brake, don't fuck it up, and if you do its a box of beer.

You talk about competence?.
I could give you an example of an accident (not motorcycle related)at a work place(not farming)and the day before it was taken to court osh or HEALTH AND SAFTEY as you put it changed this guys lawer from one that new the relavent industry code to one that new absolutly nothing COMPETENT buggers they are A?.

You say recreational use falls outside workplace but has anyone done a study on how many quads on farm and hours opperated compared to number recreational and hours used and accidents from each code?.

I have been put through a training course and i can say after 20 years riding i diddnt learn a thing really so call me an ignorant cunt if you like i couldnt give a fuck.

All the training in the world is not going to avert that possible moment of inattention that causes a possible accident.

Motorcar drivers get tested before being allowed to drive on road but theres alot of people killed and injured on road so lets ban them.

So lets ban motor cycles and cars and truck and anything else that has a possibility of hurting us and all ride horses- i got some to sell with a brain wooooo hoooo the price of them is gonna skyrocket im gonna be rich.

kiwi cowboy

8th January 2013, 17:11

We just won't talk about the moron bikers ... that just go out for the occasional fang on the weekends and crash.

But we'll talk about the moron farmers that use them seven days a week. For years on end ... with no issues. One makes a mistake and is killed.

Then the call comes for Quads to be banned.

If we compare the stats of those numbers of persons on quads getting killed ... to those killed on the two wheeled bikes (on or off the road) we will see which type of bikes should be banned.

Thank you trev my point exactly.
Type of use and hours opperated against accident rate.
Bet it would be rec use over farm anyday.

scumdog

8th January 2013, 17:13

What the fuck are you smokin dipshit?.

of the last three accidents one was a sixteen year old rode of a cliff and one was a load of tossers pissed riding around dunes - now how does that relate to farmers

If the stats were put out on how many accidents were farmers as apposed to recreational users i think you be supprised.

Hmm, read in the paper today that of the seven quad deaths two were non-farming related.

Said by Fed Farm health and safety spokeswoman...in todays ODT from memory.

BigAl

8th January 2013, 17:15

If we compare the stats of those numbers of persons on quads getting killed ... to those killed on the two wheeled bikes (on or off the road) we will see which type of bikes should be banned.

I dont know, 850 quad bike accidents with 5 fatalities each year bro.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10857843

bogan

8th January 2013, 17:19

kiwi cowboy

8th January 2013, 17:29

Hmm, read in the paper today that of the seven quad deaths two were non-farming related.

Said by Fed Farm health and safety spokeswoman...in todays ODT from memory.

Ok but define farming related?.

I refer to drink drive campain a few years ago saying haw many people killed on country roads and i found out one of the roads that was included in that term as country was state highway 1 from temuka through to winchester and on to geraldine.

Were the deaths on a farm where someone was having a race around on a recreational quad or a farm quad but useing it recreationaly but put down as a farm accident?.

Stastics can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to say sometimes.

FJRider

8th January 2013, 17:33

I dont know, 850 quad bike accidents with 5 fatalities each year bro.

As opposed to how many road bike deaths each year. And how many road bike accidents occur each year.

Compare those figures ... with the numbers of quads in use, in comparison with the number of road bikes in use.

More kids are killed by their parents than those killed in farm bike accidents.

More training/licensing for parents needed maybe ...

scumdog

8th January 2013, 17:39

Ok but define farming related?.

.

I can't - but then it wasn't me quoted in the ODT.

kiwi cowboy

8th January 2013, 17:45

I can't - but then it wasn't me quoted in the ODT.

I understand that but my point was that stastics can be manipulated to say what ever and papers dont always tell all ether.
:girlfight:

FJRider

8th January 2013, 17:52

I dont know, 850 quad bike accidents with 5 fatalities each year bro.

850 ... and 5 dead .. ???

Explain THESE statistics then please ... Who is the one telling porkies ... ???

http://www.osh.govt.nz/resources/stats/quad-bike-statistics.shtml

BigAl

8th January 2013, 17:54

That's the figures quoted in the link

"Typically, five people will die and 850 will be injured each year in accidents involving quad bikes on farms, ministry figures show."

unstuck

8th January 2013, 17:57

I blame OSH, they should have an officer visiting every farmer, every day, just to make sure they are following all the rules to the letter. We all know no-one can be responsible for their own actions, so we may as well blame someone.....Right.:yes:

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 18:15

You talk about competence?
.

Indeed I do, and upskilling through training.

If you attended training and got nothing from it then I would suggest that either the course was below your exising level of competence, or you have a shit attitude.

One can be fixed quite easily, select a more advanced course, The other has a high probability of leading to an incident for you or someone else.

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 18:17

Formal training, fucksake man, they're quad bikes, not rocket ships. Falls under common sense, and maybe mechanical sympathy, but rocket science it isn't. You must be taking the piss?

Also, who told you NZ health and safety stats are so poor? The same people whose job it is to 'fix' them perhaps?

How about, instead of thinking you know everything, You go and actually learn something.

http://www.taratahi.ac.nz/

Funny enough I reckon you probably think rider training courses for road bikes are a good idea.

bogan

8th January 2013, 18:28

How about, instead of thinking you know everything, You go and actually learn something.

http://www.taratahi.ac.nz/

So, thats a no on taking the piss, and a yes to the stats coming from those with a vested interest.

Did you read the article about the four adults and one size year old on the one quad, 3 of them drunk (including the driver). Will telling those sort of idiots to go to a website teach them better habits? It still comes down to common sense, a man with a clipboard removing personal responsibility is more likely to discourage that than teach it.

Funny enough I reckon you probably think rider training courses for road bikes are a good idea.

Sure do, but only on a voluntary basis. Have to balance the upskilling with the attitudes/responsibility. Also, it takes more skill to safely ride a roadbike than a farm quad.

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 18:34

So, thats a no on taking the piss, and a yes to the stats coming from those with a vested interest.

Did you read the article about the four adults and one size year old on the one quad, 3 of them drunk (including the driver). Will telling those sort of idiots to go to a website teach them better habits? It still comes down to common sense, a man with a clipboard removing personal responsibility is more likely to discourage that than teach it.

The stats are shocking. Your claims of vested interest are pathetic on every level.

The persons involved in the little girl getting hurt all deserve lengthy jail time, Including the woman who was sitting with her.

Your "insights" are quite naive, so kindly forgive me if I only give them the attention they deserve.

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 18:38

Sure do, but only on a voluntary basis. Have to balance the upskilling with the attitudes/responsibility. Also, it takes more skill to safely ride a roadbike than a farm quad.

Good thing then that a safe work place is a legal obligation then.

I'd consider them equal in required skill but vastly different in operation and risk , of course I can't claim to know everything.

_Shrek_

8th January 2013, 18:45

And just for the record, I hold a diploma in Health and Safety and I'm a qualified trainer and Assessor.Lmfao.

I just went to my sons graduation at the end of last year, & we listened to the speal of the tutor (trainer/assessor) about how great the course is.... showing photo's of the students & here are 12 forestry students using chain saws with out mits & quad bikes being ridden with out helmets but guess what!! both lots passed their course

so bringing new laws etc... & making people walk.... with the standard thats in place now, we need to go back to the 60's, 70's before PC & start again

bogan

8th January 2013, 18:52

The stats are shocking. Your claims of vested interest are pathetic on every level.

The persons involved in the little girl getting hurt all deserve lengthy jail time, Including the woman who was sitting with her.

Your "insights" are quite naive, so kindly forgive me if I only give them the attention they deserve.

Four or five people per year is shocking to you? That proportion to me says its likely about the individuals approach, rather than an inherent flaw in the technology or system.

On that we can agree, might go some way to changing the attitudes of other also.

:lol: the naive approach would be to think that a few hours of mandatory lessons will have any effect on the rider's attitude.

Good thing then that a safe work place is a legal obligation then.

I'd consider them equal in required skill but vastly different in operation and risk , of course I can't claim to know everything.

To me the main difference is a quad bike the rider is virtually the sole source of any risk. Hence me naively banging on about the attitudes being the overwhelming factor.

FJRider

8th January 2013, 18:53

Funny enough I reckon you probably think rider training courses for road bikes are a good idea.

Training courses are a good idea for those that want to learn. Shit ... they're even a good idea for those that have to learn.

But after all the training ... it means diddly-squat if what had been learned .... is not (was not) put into practice.

The reasons why not ... are of little importance. But the line between "Best" practice and "usual" practice ... often gets blurred.

And the ... it won't happen to me syndrome doesn't help either :brick:

scumdog

8th January 2013, 18:58

And the ... it won't happen to me syndrome doesn't help either :brick:

Sadly it is more "I didn't know/think it could happen to me"

Ignorance is not bliss some times...

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 18:58

Four or five people per year is shocking to you? That proportion to me says....

All your posts in this thread say to me that sooner or later some hard life lessons are going to hit you upside the head pretty damn hard.

bogan

8th January 2013, 19:00

All your posts in this thread say to me that sooner or later some hard life lessons are going to hit you upside the head pretty damn hard.

Always attack the poster rather than the post with you isn't it? Shame really...

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 19:00

But after all the training ... it means diddly-squat if what had been learned .... is not (was not) put into practice.

Thats where workplace procedure and monitoring come into play.

Its amazing how fast people and companies change their attitude when they are removed from site.

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 19:03

Always attack the poster rather than the post with you isn't it? Shame really...

You would present denial and ignorance in the face of multiple deaths?

Yeah, get fucked, No time for it, Seen way to many hurt by others spouting your line of shit.

bogan

8th January 2013, 19:09

You would present denial and ignorance in the face of multiple deaths?

Yeah, get fucked, No time for it, Seen way to many hurt by others spouting your line of shit.

Common sense and personal responsibility is a line of shit now? Jeepers, we are a long way down the rabbit hole now toto :sweatdrop

_Shrek_

8th January 2013, 19:12

Thats where workplace procedure and monitoring come into play.

Its amazing how fast people and companies change their attitude when they are removed from site.

& where does the Grey area fit in here????

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 19:15

Common sense and personal responsibility is a line of shit now? Jeepers, we are a long way down the rabbit hole now toto :sweatdrop

Competence is a combination of experience and training, Your elusive common sense doesn't count for much if anything if you have no idea what you are faced with and are ignorant of the lessons learned by others.

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 19:16

& where does the Grey area fit in here????

Care to elaborate?

FJRider

8th January 2013, 19:25

Thats where workplace procedure and monitoring come into play.

Its amazing how fast people and companies change their attitude when they are removed from site.

And it's amazing how a shortcut taken at the wrong time/situation can go really bad. Really fast.

Accidents are made up of (usually) several factors. Take one factor out ... and severity of the result is often reduced. If not removed. Until "Workplace Procedures" list ALL possible factors ... no amount of procedure will remove ALL/any risk. Factors unknown (to those involved) at the time of an accident ... play a vital part of the end result.

Next an "Inspector" will have to be able to tell farmers where on THEIR properties they can't ride THEIR quads. And conditions they are/are not ... allowed.

All in the interest of "Public" safety ... of course.

bogan

8th January 2013, 19:26

Competence is a combination of experience and training, Your elusive common sense doesn't count for much if anything if you have no idea what you are faced with and are ignorant of the lessons learned by others.

Ahh, but that is where it is most useful, common sense dictates caution in the face of uncertainty.

I wonder how the distribution of accidents stacks up between those who think, this is a bit sketchy but she'll be right, and those who are truly surprised when things go awry, any ideas?

unstuck

8th January 2013, 19:26

_Shrek_

8th January 2013, 19:30

Care to elaborate?

the grey area being after working on farm, then using bike for leisure on farm to go hunting, fishing, camping, collecting fire wood, hooning or even just sight seeing etc...

:mad: or are you like these wallies that just want quad bikes for work only, & get so regulated that you will need to have a tail gate meeting every job you do

like you have to do in the bush from one job to the next :angry2:

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 19:34

And it's amazing how a shortcut taken at the wrong time/situation can go really bad. Really fast.

Accidents are made up of (usually) several factors. Take one factor out ... and severity of the result is often reduced. If not removed. Until "Workplace Procedures" list ALL possible factors ... no amount of procedure will remove ALL/any risk. Factors unknown (to those involved) at the time of an accident ... play a vital part of the end result.

Next an "Inspector" will have to be able to tell farmers where on THEIR properties they can't ride THEIR quads. And conditions they are/are not ... allowed.

All in the interest of "Public" safety ... of course.

I am of the opinion that incidents allways have multiple contributing factors and at least one direct cause.

At an international safety level some industries have invested untold millions into creating and implemnenting safe operating procedures (SOP) that take into account all possible factors and ensuring that all staff work to the letter of these procedures, Then they monitor the work with Jab safety analisis (JSA) and risk assesments.

Of course, people still get hurt, But at nothing like the scale of a generation or two ago.

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 19:41

the grey area being after working on farm, then using bike for leisure on farm to go hunting, fishing, camping, collecting fire wood, hooning or even just sight seeing etc...

:mad: or are you like these wallies that just want quad bikes for work only, & get so regulated that you will need to have a tail gate meeting every job you do

like you have to do in the bush from one job to the next :angry2:

My personal opinion is that there should be a clear separation of work place and recreational activities, I think if you want to hurt yourself in your own time then so be it.

The grey area you refer to is due to a farm being a designated work place, No matter if the activites are for reward or not.

These sorts of designations are normally created by the courts, If I ever become a judge I'll set things straight.

scumdog

8th January 2013, 19:47

The grey area you refer to is due to a farm being a designated work place, No matter if the activites are for reward or not.

These sorts of designations are normally created by the courts, If I ever become a judge I'll set things straight.

So you'll have all quads fitted with a timer/clicker, click them each time the role is changed.

'Click' Farm Work time: 2hrs 10mins logged
'Click' Recreation time 25mins logged
'Click' More Farm Work 2hrs 35mins logged
'Click' Recreation time 1hr 11mins logged

Yadda-yadda-yadda....

cynna

8th January 2013, 19:50

as long as they dont change the rules for trikes i will be happy

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 19:51

So you'll have all quads fitted with a timer/clicker, click them each time the role is changed.

'Click' Farm Work time: 2hrs 10mins logged
'Click' Recreation time 25mins logged
'Click' More Farm Work 2hrs 35mins logged
'Click' Recreation time 1hr 11mins logged

Yadda-yadda-yadda....

No, I'd write up a frame work of site related tasks that need to be done in accordance with a Safe Work Method Statement (SWMS), and assign guidelines to tasks that fall outside these core components.

In the grand scheme of things it wouldn't be a major nor difficult undertaking.

_Shrek_

8th January 2013, 19:51

I am of the opinion that incidents allways have multiple contributing factors and at least one direct cause.

At an international safety level some industries have invested untold millions into creating and implemnenting safe operating procedures (SOP) that take into account all possible factors and ensuring that all staff work to the letter of these procedures, Then they monitor the work with Jab safety analisis (JSA) and risk assesments.

Of course, people still get hurt, But at nothing like the scale of a generation or two ago.

well they (OSH) tried to bring in that all diggers will have the same controls so that SOP will be enhanced.... what a groc of shit... never mind that some have been operating machines for 30 +years another way

well after all the dosh they spent on that little saga it was throw'n out at the cost of the tax payer of course

why because to many workers were being hurt

while I do believe that people need to be trained etc... there is a limit to what the imput should be from all the SOP,JSA, etc...

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 20:02

while I do believe that people need to be trained etc... there is a limit to what the imput should be from all the SOP,JSA, etc...

I have found it extremely difficult in workplaces where management want everything done to the letter of a SOP, There are always variables and the need for people to apply their expertise. (this isn't the same as dismissing training and falling back on so called common sense).

There have been instances where I asked contractors to remove detail from the method statement as I can see right away if I were to hold them accountable to it they would never meet the requirements they themselves stipulated.

As for training, In a decade of work I never received any, Then when I organized it at my own expense I was amazed at how badly I/we had been operating, But you can't know what you don't know.

_Shrek_

8th January 2013, 20:28

Argh, on the idiot box news afew minutes ago: "Coming up in th enews; More quadbike death bring calls for more/tougher (can't remember which) regulations"

Riiiiggghht, so how the eff are any tougher regulations ever going to work with these quads and prevent 'accidents'? - wrap the rider in 50kg of bubble-wrap??

Spare me days...:wacko:

I have found it extremely difficult in workplaces where management want everything done to the letter of a SOP, There are always variables and the need for people to apply their expertise. (this isn't the same as dismissing training and falling back on so called common sense).

There have been instances where I asked contractors to remove detail from the method statement as I can see right away if I were to hold them accountable to it they would never meet the requirements they themselves stipulated.

As for training, In a decade of work I never received any, Then when I organized it at my own expense I was amazed at how badly I/we had been operating, But you can't know what you don't know.

but it still does not give the gubbermint the right to start adding new regulations for the use of quad bikes as the start of this rant states

because a bunch of tossers use a quad bike in the wrong manner - as a trainer-assessor. you can show & teach people but at the end of the day they will do what they do, & there are times I have gone against the SOP because they would cause to much delay for the contractor & are over kill on the safety side of things to a point where nothing was getting done

kiwi cowboy

8th January 2013, 20:55

Indeed I do, and upskilling through training.

If you attended training and got nothing from it then I would suggest that either the course was below your exising level of competence, or you have a shit attitude.

One can be fixed quite easily, select a more advanced course, The other has a high probability of leading to an incident for you or someone else.

Ok the forst part you answered in my original post refered to the osh organisation being the incompetent fools but you obviously diddnt see that.

As for the rest of the above well have we ever met - NO.
Do you know me or know what my level of competence is -NO.

So how do you know weather i have a shit attitude or not

The sugestion that i have to be taught everything by someone like you that would see me as some kneandathole idiot and look down your nose thinking i know nothing about quads or bikes shows me that you think i cant think for myself and make any decisions short of wiping my arse.

I probably do sound like i have a shit attitude but i have been around a bit and i do belive in personal responsibility which was drumed into me as a kid.

So einstein what course do you suggest i do after riding 3 and 4 wheelers for the last 30 years on flat to steep hill country without an injury or accident to make me safe?.

FJRider

8th January 2013, 21:10

So einstein what course do you suggest i do after riding 3 and 4 wheelers for the last 30 years on flat to steep hill country without an injury or accident to make me safe?.

Nobody in Otago has died in a quad bike accident since 2008.

The Waikato however ... is a different story.

Considering the terrain in both ... some might think it should be the other way round ..

kiwi cowboy

8th January 2013, 21:21

Nobody in Otago has died in a quad bike accident since 2008.

The Waikato however ... is a different story.

Considering the terrain in both ... some might think it should be the other way round ..

From what i understand of Waikato its pretty wet and deep soil on hills which may leed to more slippery on slopes which couls go some way to explain it.

But it still comes down to being able to make a decision for yourself and comes back to personal responsibility.

unstuck

8th January 2013, 21:22

But it still comes down to being able to make a decision for yourself and comes back to personal responsibility.

+1 to that.:yes:

Ocean1

8th January 2013, 21:31

" Quad bikes are not all terrain vehicles - they can't go everywhere, do everything. Respect their limits":eek5:.

A quote from the quad bike saftey page.Something a lot of people do not seem to understand sadly.

I got one for around here a year or so ago. Surprised me how poorly it manages the slopes, both traction wise and wanting to roll wise.

As for the safety shit? Who's safety is it?

When you're at risk you can decide, in the meantime fuck off.

unstuck

8th January 2013, 21:44

I got one for around here a year or so ago. Surprised me how poorly it manages the slopes, both traction wise and wanting to roll wise.

As for the safety shit? Who's safety is it?

When you're at risk you can decide, in the meantime fuck off.

I have seen a lot of fellas on quads that think they can tackle anything:brick: Even with half full spray tanks on:wacko: Even OZZY fucked himself up a bit(more) on one didn't he.:headbang:

Berries

8th January 2013, 22:37

The sugestion that i have to be taught everything by someone like you that would see me as some kneandathole idiot.
Kneandathole? Is that a farming implement or new brand of Chinese quad?

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 22:39

So how do you know weather i have a shit attitude or not

.

I'm still pondering what the weather has to do with your shithouse attitude.

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 22:58

but it still does not give the gubbermint the right to start adding new regulations for the use of quad bikes as the start of this rant states

Because a bunch of tossers use a quad bike in the wrong manner - as a trainer-assessor. you can show & teach people but at the end of the day they will do what they do, & there are times I have gone against the SOP because they would cause to much delay for the contractor & are over kill on the safety side of things to a point where nothing was getting done

In the event that there is an incident its up to the parties involved to prove they done their best to meet their legal obligations, That is having trained experienced personnel, Undertaking Hazard ID and installing controls, and a record of monitoring the situation.

Bear in mind that if you work outside a defined sop and things go wrong then you may well be used as a scapegoat, Its an easy out for those looking to pass the buck.

And make no mistake, A lot of H&S is about covering arses and passing the buck just as much as it is about forcing people down the safe (defined) path.

Granted no one likes paperwork, and no one will ever ask for it until something goes wrong. But when operating outside of the SOP its a good idea to spend 3 minutes on a JSA.

Headbanger

8th January 2013, 23:17

Ok the forst part you answered in my original post refered to the osh organisation being the incompetent fools but you obviously diddnt see that.

As for the rest of the above well have we ever met - NO.
Do you know me or know what my level of competence is -NO.

After careful consideration of your entire post, I would insist not only are you but every person who shares your blood lines be banned from all ATV's, I would also suggest you not be allowed near log splitters, tractors, excavators, tinfoil, steps, or anything with sharp edges or moving parts, This includes utensils and pencils.

Crayons are fine unless you try and eat them.

_Shrek_

9th January 2013, 06:44

me as some kneandathole.... i do belive in personal responsibility which was drumed into me as a kid.

So einstein what course do you suggest i do after riding 3 and 4 wheelers for the last 30 years on flat to steep hill country without an injury or accident to make me safe?.

we must be twins :shutup:

After careful consideration of your entire post, I would insist not only are you but every person who shares your blood lines be banned from all ATV's, I would also suggest you not be allowed near log splitters, tractors, excavators, tinfoil, steps, or anything with sharp edges or moving parts, This includes utensils and pencils.

Crayons are fine unless you try and eat them.

In the event that there is an incident its up to the parties involved to prove they done their best to meet their legal obligations, That is having trained experienced personnel, Undertaking Hazard ID and installing controls, and a record of monitoring the situation.

Bear in mind that if you work outside a defined sop and things go wrong then you may well be used as a scapegoat, Its an easy out for those looking to pass the buck.

And make no mistake, A lot of H&S is about covering arses and passing the buck just as much as it is about forcing people down the safe (defined) path.

Granted no one likes paperwork, and no one will ever ask for it until something goes wrong. But when operating outside of the SOP its a good idea to spend 3 minutes on a JSA.

& after reading your posts I have come to the conclusion that you would rather sit around having tail gate meetings all day then expect to be paid

I think your avatar says it all "Ultimate keyboard Warrior" & you should go look in the mirror & have a reality check then join the real world

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 06:54

Kneandathole? Is that a farming implement or new brand of Chinese quad?

Pmsl ok my thpelling ithint da best but hey hb seems ta think were idiots that cant think for ourselves we probably need thpellink lessons to

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 06:58

I'm still pondering what the weather has to do with your shithouse attitude.

Ha ha ha great come back by some one that has run out of constructive coments and has to start attacking the poster not the subject::finger::whistle:

bogan

9th January 2013, 07:19

Ha ha ha great come back by some one that has run out of constructive coments and has to start attacking the poster not the subject::finger::whistle:

Well your track record and the realities of the situation make the subject too difficult, so what else has he got?

Often the way with the we-must-legislate it types, the realities of the situation that do not fit their model must be discounted and ignored rather than understood; the realities that do must be amplified and used to scare the public into unquestioning obedience. Just look at some of the speed kills campaign ads.

doc

9th January 2013, 07:28

"Ultimate keyboard Warrior"

I blame the friggen
"Original Warrior" for starting this thread.

Rideon mowers will be the next target .

Paul in NZ

9th January 2013, 07:49

While its awfully tempting to say ‘fuck the gubbermint and the panty waisted autocrats telling us horny handed sons of the soil what to do on mah own lawn”…. The fact remains that every time there is a serious accident and quite apart from the terrible personal consequences, the self same gubbermint (and us tax payers) end up with a stonking great bill.

Like it or not it the downside of having useful things like SAR, Police, Fire Services, helicopter rescue services and ambulances, hospitals and the like is paying for the darn things. We live in an age of medical miracles where injuries that were untreatable 100years ago are now minor and the early deaths/amputations/disfigurements etc of previous generations are increasingly rare. Communications technology and freely available cheap mechanized transport has changed our world. Unfortunately all this medical/rescue stuff uses pretty darn expensive kit compared to the price of say a quad. Ie its increasingly cheaper to get out there and get into trouble and more expensive to get you back if it goes pear shaped.

People’s expectations of rescue have also grown and thus in this increasingly connected and covered world our collective ‘fiscal responsibility’ towards each other is increasing. While its easy to say ‘let those who face the risk decide’ the reality is that those who pay the bills will want to have a say as is proper. Imagine the howls of protest from Federated Farmers if ACC said that you now have to register each quad and farm vehicle to cover the costs of any accidents… (they well may do I don’t actually know I’m just forwarding an argument for the other side for the sake of good form)

Individual responsibility is a fine thing and needs to be encouraged but does that mean we don’t go to the aid of idiots? ‘Oh? Your 6 year old is injured because you were drinking and overloaded your quad??? Well that’s really stupid and irresponsible of you so no we wont send an ambulance this time but here is the address of the nearest medical centre…” Nah – it wont work in any reasonable society.

There are solutions but they require a less selfish attitude and a co operative mood in society. Exactly the opposite of where we are headed…

Katman

9th January 2013, 08:10

but it still does not give the gubbermint the right to start adding new regulations for the use of quad bikes as the start of this rant states

Why not?

Work place machinery is expected to be of a safe standard.

Why shouldn't farmers be expected to keep their bikes in an equally safe standard?

Paul in NZ

9th January 2013, 08:26

Why not?

Work place machinery is expected to be of a safe standard.

Why shouldn't farmers be expected to keep their bikes in an equally safe standard?

Sorry we cant send the rescue chopper as we couldnt be arsed changing the air filter and it cant get off the ground. We have got Bills topdresser though so if you could just cut an airstrip we will sweep out the worst of the super and chuck a few sack in the hopper....

bogan

9th January 2013, 08:27

Why not?

Work place machinery is expected to be of a safe standard.

Why shouldn't farmers be expected to keep their bikes in an equally safe standard?

Again, more data is needed. Divide the accident figures into three categories:

Machinery at fault
Rider skill at fault
Rider attitude at fault

Without at least knowing the distribution across those factors it seems misguided to focus legislation on fixing just one or two.

Banditbandit

9th January 2013, 08:30

Without at least knowing the distribution across those factors it seems misguided to focus legislation on fixing just one or two.

Fuck me ... facts have never bothered politicans in the past ... they will legislate for emotion and votes .. never facts ..

Katman

9th January 2013, 08:43

Without at least knowing the distribution across those factors it seems misguided to focus legislation on fixing just one or two.

No. What's misguided is burying your head in the sand and pretending that there's nothing wrong.

duckonin

9th January 2013, 08:45

Sorry we cant send the rescue chopper as we couldnt be arsed changing the air filter and it cant get off the ground. We have got Bills topdresser though so if you could just cut an airstrip we will sweep out the worst of the super and chuck a few sack in the hopper....

Poor post. Farmers are notorious for ill-equipped gear/unsafe machinery. With their quads they drag big heavy shit around stretch the frames/kill the welds ect making the bike unsafe, not fit to be used . Nope that still does not stop the bike being used by all. Those in the industry of fixing Quads will know well what I am talking about.

Farmers and farm hands are human and will take the bike to the edge, trouble is most have never had a real good fright to finding that edge and when they do sometimes it is too late.

Katman

9th January 2013, 08:51

Introducing some sort of WOF process for farm bikes would be a start.

bogan

9th January 2013, 09:07

No. What's misguided is burying your head in the sand and pretending that there's nothing wrong.

How is asking what the actual proportions are burying my head in the sand? Quite the opposite I would have thought.

You're sounding a bit like Headbanger, why question the realities of the situation when we can just bang through some legislation backed up by some 'scary' anecdotal evidence?

Its gotten like the boy who cried wolf, so much BS safety legislation that the worthwhile stuff is not well received either. I suspect this one falls into the BS category, but if some factual data comes out I could be swayed.

Ocean1

9th January 2013, 09:15

Katman

9th January 2013, 09:17

What the fuck for? WOF's do nothing to improve road accidenty stat's, what makes you think they'd make any difference on a farm?

Really? How the fuck would you know?

I've seen some pretty scary shit on motorcycles that have come in for WOF checks.

bogan

9th January 2013, 09:28

Really? How the fuck would you know?

I've seen some pretty scary shit on motorcycles that have come in for WOF checks.

Good thing its all about scary anecdotal evidence then :whistle:

Ocean1

9th January 2013, 09:42

Really? How the fuck would you know?

Because I compared accident rates in US and Au states that had regular mechanical checks with those that don't.

You could do the same if you stopped flapping your gums for 10 minutes.

The (more) recent body rust WOF failures were driven by a fatality (up your way as it happens) where a woman on the main highway turned right across the front of a big fuckoff truck. The car was essentially pop riveted together up one side and boged over. Would the woman have died in a car with no pop rivets? Absolutely, no question. Is anyoue in the country currently alive because the local garage made them bog up some rust around the rear window? I very much doubt it. It's easy money for mechanics who wouldn't survive if they didn't have the work handed to them on a plate.

Katman

9th January 2013, 09:45

Good thing its all about scary anecdotal evidence then :whistle:

Perhaps you'd prefer me to ignore the bald tyres, the rumbling wheel bearings, the cracked handlebars, the perished brake hoses etc. so that instead of anecdotal evidence we could have a bit more empirical evidence.

Katman

9th January 2013, 09:46

Because I compared accident rates in US and Au states that had regular mechanical checks with those that don't.

You wouldn't know shit from clay.

bogan

9th January 2013, 09:53

Perhaps you'd prefer me to ignore the bald tyres, the rumbling wheel bearings, the cracked handlebars, the perished brake hoses etc. so that instead of anecdotal evidence we could have a bit more empirical evidence.

Well, since there's no wof legislation for quads, all the empirical evidence is already around. That should be appropriately interpreted before pushing said legislation. I really don't see why this simple concept seems so hard to grasp; before making a change, ensure said change will have the desired affect without undesirable side effects. I mean, you wouldn't tighten a chain by replacing the rear sprocket with one a tooth bigger would you?

Katman

9th January 2013, 09:56

Well, since there's no wof legislation for quads, all the empirical evidence is already around. That should be appropriately interpreted before pushing said legislation. I really don't see why this simple concept seems so hard to grasp; before making a change, ensure said change will have the desired affect without undesirable side effects. I mean, you wouldn't tighten a chain by replacing the rear sprocket with one a tooth bigger would you?

A large percentage of New Zealand's farm bike fleet are in poor condition.

What is so 'knee-jerk' about introducing a system to improve that standard?

bogan

9th January 2013, 10:05

A large percentage of New Zealand's farm bike fleet are in poor condition.

What is so 'knee-jerk' about introducing a system to improve that standard?

Because the 'large percentage', and 'poor condition' and their effects are not quantified, it is purely subjective. Establish the facts then work from there, it really is a nice, simple, common sense, approach.

Katman

9th January 2013, 10:06

Because the 'large percentage', and 'poor condition' and their effects are not quantified, it is purely subjective. Establish the facts then work from there, it really is a nice, simple, common sense, approach.

People like you like forming committees to choose who should be on the committee to make decisions.

bogan

9th January 2013, 10:16

People like you like forming committees to choose who should be on the committee to make decisions.

Wondered when that straw man would show up. Wouldn't take fuck all to investigate as I said, those who do not even wish to ask the question are at the minimum lazy, but more likely incompetent and should not be involved in the decision making process in any way.

Zedder

9th January 2013, 10:16

I blame the friggen
"Original Warrior" for starting this thread.

Rideon mowers will be the next target .

Yep, he's probably rolling around laughing. "Winding up..."

Rideon mowers?!? Next thread topic. Absolutely bloody dangerous! How many innocent plants have been killed?

Katman

9th January 2013, 10:18

Wouldn't take fuck all to investigate as I said,

What's there to investigate?

I'm merely suggesting making a start.

I presume you'd prefer to sit around and talk about it forever.

Paul in NZ

9th January 2013, 10:32

So what? ACC is managing just fine on the revenue it takes as it is, and if you take your premise to it's natural conclusion there'd be no stairs, for example, 'cause elevators is safer. There used to be things called Safety Engineers, their role was to quantify major project risks in terms of human life. Budgets were generated and risks mitigated based on their reports. One day someone died on the job, and the papers were full of the "sickening practice of putting a price on human life". So we don't have Safety Engineers any more, what we've got is a bunch of corperate/govt speak: "There's no such thing as an accident, "Every accident is preventable", etc.

News: there is a price on human life. It's that which each individual is prepared to pay for his own. Nobody else has the right to do that, not even if they're responsible for patching people up after an accident. Think of it as the ultimate self sesponsibility. 'Cause that's exactly what it is.

Well we mostly agree except I'm not getting your point regarding the relationship between safety engineers and quad bikes? Assuming the quad passed an initial safety standard (ie the design) I can only see the terrain as a factor where engineering could make a difference. ie properly formed, inspected and maintained farm tracks etc.

Yes - there is a price on preserving a human life and the role of laws/regulations is to reduce that cost by preventing as many silly accidents as possible. I agree that there is a trend towards overkill but equally as many examples where that approach works.

bogan

9th January 2013, 10:38

Yep, he's probably rolling around laughing. "Winding up..."

Rideon mowers?!? Next thread topic. Absolutely bloody dangerous! How many innocent plants have been killed?

:lol: Bet Streetbike Tommy was glad his one didn't have blades...

What's there to investigate?

I'm merely suggesting making a start.

I presume you'd prefer to sit around and talk about it forever.

Oh, just the real world data, investigating that is the start. Jumping the gun and doing anything else is just a waste of resources. Sitting around talking about things forever only happens with poor management, unfortunately bubble wrap legislation seems to attract that sort of person. I guess it the easy mark for using scary anecdotal evedence to make things happen which end up having little effect, thus creating good job security.

Weren't you crapping on about CSS doing more harm than good the other week? I'm guessing you'd prefer if they got some evidence to show they were making a positive difference?

Headbanger

9th January 2013, 10:41

we must be twins :shutup:

& after reading your posts I have come to the conclusion that you would rather sit around having tail gate meetings all day then expect to be paid

I think your avatar says it all "Ultimate keyboard Warrior" & you should go look in the mirror & have a reality check then join the real world

Thats cool,lmao.

I do what I'm paid to do, as per the direction decided upon by the management of wherever I happen to be working.

Headbanger

9th January 2013, 10:48

Well your track record and the realities of the situation make the subject too difficult, so what else has he got?

Often the way with the we-must-legislate it types, the realities of the situation that do not fit their model must be discounted and ignored rather than understood; the realities that do must be amplified and used to scare the public into unquestioning obedience. Just look at some of the speed kills campaign ads.

Yeah, I was advocating upskilling, As I have said all ready safety systems can't work when the work force is so ignorant and poorly skilled.

And as I have already pointed out agricultural incidents and in particular incidents on quad bikes are a large component of a poorly performing safety culture.

Your not in a position to take the high ground when your an advocate of low skills and getting killed.

Headbanger

9th January 2013, 10:53

Perhaps you'd prefer me to ignore the bald tyres, the rumbling wheel bearings, the cracked handlebars, the perished brake hoses etc. so that instead of anecdotal evidence we could have a bit more empirical evidence.

Its a pity the farm workers accept that standard of machinery on some farms, Some training on basic maintenance and their rights under the Health and Safety act would go a long way. I've seen some death trap machines out in the sticks, being operated by kids (and adults) with no concept of the likelihood or real would ramifications of an injury.

Headbanger

9th January 2013, 10:59

Pmsl ok my thpelling ithint da best but hey hb seems ta think were idiots that cant think for ourselves we probably need thpellink lessons to

The track record and attitude of your industry speaks for itself. Defining a standard and training people towards it is about raising the overall skill base, Not about treating people like fools.

If you went into training with that outlook then you did indeed waste your time and the instructors time, even if your skill set is above the level of training provided.

If you go in determined to get nothing out of it then that's exactly what you receive, You think you can't be taught because you already know it all.

Hence, some farmers are their own worst enemies. You clearly are what you fear people perceive you to be.

bogan

9th January 2013, 11:09

Yeah, I was advocating upskilling, As I have said all ready safety systems can't work when the work force is so ignorant and poorly skilled.

And as I have already pointed out agricultural incidents and in particular incidents on quad bikes are a large component of a poorly performing safety culture.

Your not in a position to take the high ground when your an advocate of low skills and getting killed.

Still not providing any evidence as to the nature of the problem and how the solution addresses that. With a proportionally low incident rate your claims that the workforce is ignorant and poorly skilled are laughable, and perhaps insulting if anyone still take your opinions seriously.

Actually, I'm saying the skills are already adequate, and its not a lack of skills that get people killed. But you've heard that before, and I can only assume you deliberately misinterpret it so you can find some points to argue against. :yawn:

Katman

9th January 2013, 11:17

Actually, I'm saying the skills are already adequate, and its not a lack of skills that get people killed.

Really? I'd say there would be a fair few (there I go again with that non-specific data) who get sent out on a quad who wouldn't have a clue how to safely traverse a steep slope.

Headbanger

9th January 2013, 11:19

Wondered when that straw man would show up. Wouldn't take fuck all to investigate as I said, those who do not even wish to ask the question are at the minimum lazy, but more likely incompetent and should not be involved in the decision making process in any way.

So, You have gone from being an advocate of zero training and death, to an expert on the condition on mechanical devices over and above someone whose specialty is the condition of motorcycles to now a specialist incident investigator.

The Health and Safety act stipulates that all hazards are to be recorderd and investigated, You then use the data to implement controls in the work place to ensure the same series of events don't repeat. Plant inspection and maintenance is a big part of this.

So, Your right, no legislation required, Farmers are already ignoring their legal obligations, Incidents are not being recorded, No improvements are being implemented, The situation remains the same, advocates consider the rate of killing and injury to be just fine.

That aside, The department of labour and the police have run a number of investigations into quad bike incidents on farms (you may want to ring them, give them your insights) and that has resulted in the Guidelines for ATV use and the training courses (which included mechanical and operation and Health and safety components), which of course are being mostly ignored by the industry, Because they are doing so fucking brilliantly that actually getting better is not an option.

Yeefucking ha.

Headbanger

9th January 2013, 11:21

Actually, I'm saying the skills are already adequate, and its not a lack of skills that get people killed. But you've heard that before,

:facepalm:

seriously, what industry do you work in?

Katman

9th January 2013, 11:24

seriously, what industry do you work in?

He's on a committee.

Headbanger

9th January 2013, 11:27

He's on a committee.

I like the way hes gone from saying a mechanic can't give an expert opinion unless its been investigated but he can make the statement that lack of skill is not a factor......

Banditbandit

9th January 2013, 11:28

Why not?

Work place machinery is expected to be of a safe standard.

Why shouldn't farmers be expected to keep their bikes in an equally safe standard?

They are - quad bikes are workplace machinery ... and as such farmers are expected to keep them up to a safe standard.

The problem is that most quad bikes are used off road, most often on private land, so a WOF system would not work - who is to go aroudand check that the bikes are up to standard? Go onto private land and check it out?

Most quad bike acidernts also happen on private land - and are not subject to the same ivesdtigation as road accidnets . however, as work placve accidnets they are subject to OSH inivestigatin - and it is OSH who check on the safety of workplacve machinery - including quad bikes ...

But unfortunately OSH only investigates after an accuent has happened ..

From the department of Labour web site

"Is it enough to just provide helmets for workers?
It is not enough for farmers to just provide helmets for workers and others who ride their bikes. Farmers need to take steps to ensure that these helmets are worn.

What if my workers won’t wear a helmet, or take them off when I’m not around?
Your response should be the same as it would be if the worker did other serious things like consistently failed to turn up for work, or turned up drunk. If you take the issue seriously, so will they.

Clearly communicate to the worker that wearing a helmet prevents injury, and that helmets must be worn or disciplinary action will be taken.

You can use employment agreements to spell out that workers must comply with all health and safety requirements, including wearing helmets. The agreement can state that not complying with health and safety requirements would be considered serious misconduct and could result in disciplinary action, including their employment being ended.

Workers can also be reminded that it’s not just employers who can be prosecuted for not wearing a helmet. Employees also have a duty to keep themselves and others out of harm’s way, and the Department of Labour has prosecuted employees for failing to do this.

It is important that you lead by example - don’t expect your employees to wear a helmet if you don’t."

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 11:32

The track record and attitude of your industry speaks for itself. Defining a standard and training people towards it is about raising the overall skill base, Not about treating people like fools.

I agree with part of this but where in yourstandard definition and training do you teach personal responsibility?.

If you went into training with that outlook then you did indeed waste your time and the instructors time, even if your skill set is above the level of training provided.

I diddnt go in with that outlook thankyou and i did enjoy the day.
If you go in determined to get nothing out of it then that's exactly what you receive, You think you can't be taught because you already know it all.

I dont know it all im still learning what a tosser you realy are.
Hence, some farmers are their own worst enemies. You clearly are what you fear people perceive you to be.

Some farmers are there own enemies but would you like a shot at how i think people perceive me just to clear that up?.

Headbanger

9th January 2013, 11:42

Its worrying that people have the perception that personal responsibility have been removed from the work place, The act itself empowers the employee in such a way that they not only have a personal responsibility but a general responsibility and the tools to do something about it if they wished to.

In a nutshell no one is allowed to do anything unsafe, tell anyone to do anything unsafe or allow anyone else to do anything unsafe.

Sure, it opens up large grey areas, a simple risk assessment tool will define the required steps/controls in under 5 minutes.

If there are unsafe plant, conditions or tasks being undertaken at your workplace, You have the right to refuse untill the risk has been investigated.

Also you are given by law 2 days a year to allow for training, The safety rep course just happens to be a 2 day free course,is held all year round,a d clearly a lot of people in this thread would get a lot from it if they went into it with an attitude to learn.

bogan

9th January 2013, 11:46

So, You have gone from being an advocate of zero training and death, to an expert on the condition on mechanical devices over and above someone whose specialty is the condition of motorcycles to now a specialist incident investigator.

The Health and Safety act stipulates that all hazards are to be recorderd and investigated, You then use the data to implement controls in the work place to ensure the same series of events don't repeat. Plant inspection and maintenance is a big part of this.

So, Your right, no legislation required, Farmers are already ignoring their legal obligations, Incidents are not being recorded, No improvements are being implemented, The situation remains the same, advocates consider the rate of killing and injury to be just fine.

That aside, The department of labour and the police have run a number of investigations into quad bike incidents on farms (you may want to ring them, give them your insights) and that has resulted in the Guidelines for ATV use and the training courses (which included mechanical and operation and Health and safety components), which of course are being mostly ignored by the industry, Because they are doing so fucking brilliantly that actually getting better is not an option.

Yeefucking ha.

Actually, I merely have theories that contradict others, easy enough to use the actual data to prove one right or wrong, which is what I'm advocating. The fact you have to resort to anecdotal evidence, deliberate misinterpretation, and insults wherever possible suggests you are unwilling to give alternate theories or the data any serious thought.

I like the way hes gone from saying a mechanic can't give an expert opinion unless its been investigated but he can make the statement that lack of skill is not a factor......

That's my theory, I'm not putting it forward as fact, but I am putting it forward as something that needs looking into. This is pretty fucking simple stuff guys, do try and keep up. BTW, a mechanic can give all the expert opinions they like, it just isn't relevant unless they are couple with the resulting effects. For a hypothetical example, rumbly wheel bearings sounds dangerous, but if they haven't killed or injured somebody for 30 years, then perhaps they are not as dangerous as the mechanic would have you believe.

And as a systems engineer, its my job to consider the big picture, and ensure proposed solutions are the most efficient way of getting the desired effects.

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 11:48

Really? I'd say there would be a fair few (there I go again with that non-specific data) who get sent out on a quad who wouldn't have a clue how to safely traverse a steep slope.

Ok katman her's a we scenario for you and hb.

Im on a farm-its damp on the ground and i want to get up a steeper type hill that has a flat'er area on the ridge with a gully up either side.
I have to cross a colvit at the bottom and i have a spray tank on the quad full of spray for gorse up the hill further.

How would you handle the quad up the hill.

bogan

9th January 2013, 11:48

clearly a lot of people in this thread would get a lot from it if they went into it with an attitude to learn.

lmfao, yeh, cos I've crashed a quad and died three times this year, and its only the 9th :shit:

Katman

9th January 2013, 11:54

How would you handle the quad up the hill.

Fucked if I know.

But then again, I don't have to know - I'm not a farmer.

Headbanger

9th January 2013, 12:01

lmfao, yeh, cos I've crashed a quad and died three times this year, and its only the 9th :shit:

No, Because you are an ignorant know it all.

I suggest, as I did before that instead of assuming you already know everything that you instead go and actually learn something.

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 12:03

Fucked if I know.

But then again, I don't have to know - I'm not a farmer.

:gob::confused:Really?.
So what gives you the right to comment on this thread about quads and farmers?-oh forgot where i am:facepalm:

Katman

9th January 2013, 12:04

:gob::confused:Really?.
So what gives you the right to comment on this thread about quads and farmers?-oh forgot where i am:facepalm:

Because I get to work on the pieces of shit quad bikes that farmers bring in.

bogan

9th January 2013, 12:04

No, Because you are an ignorant know it all.

I suggest, as I did before that instead of assuming you already know everything that you instead go and actually learn something.

Funny, only one of us is asking that alternative theories are considered and the data be interpreted, while the other seems very sure of their own viewpoint but unable to back it up. I'll leave it up to you to decide which fits your description better :nya:

Headbanger

9th January 2013, 12:05

How would you handle the quad up the hill.

I wouldn't, But I would hope that whoever was doing it had the level of expertise to safely undertake the task (or come up with an alternative plan), that they were using the correct tool for the job and they had taken the applicable hazards into account before launching up the hill.

Edbear

9th January 2013, 12:06

Ok katman her's a we scenario for you and hb.

Im on a farm-its damp on the ground and i want to get up a steeper type hill that has a flat'er area on the ridge with a gully up either side.
I have to cross a colvit at the bottom and i have a spray tank on the quad full of spray for gorse up the hill further.

How would you handle the quad up the hill.

Depends on how much of a risk you want to take. It is your responsibilty and your choice to make. If you were fairly sure you would fall down, you may choose not to risk it and try to perform the desired task another way.

Saying, "Ï have to do this." as an excuse to take unneccesary risks to your health and safety won't wash with OSH, nor, I would opine, with most observers. On the other hand, if you were in a profession where you were expected to take personal risks you would aquire the necessary training for it, same as Firefighters, Police, Military, etc.

Headbanger

9th January 2013, 12:07

Funny, only one of us is asking that alternative theories are considered and the data be interpreted, while the other seems very sure of their own viewpoint but unable to back it up. I'll leave it up to you to decide which fits your description better :nya:

Heres your starting point, educate yourself. Get back to me when you have raised your level of understanding, Though you may need some life experience to give it some scope.

http://www.dol.govt.nz/workplace/knowledgebase/item/1391

http://www.osh.dol.govt.nz/law/quickguide/employers/trainingreps.shtml (http://www.dol.govt.nz/workplace/knowledgebase/item/1391)

Edbear

9th January 2013, 12:08

I wouldn't, But I would hope that whoever was doing it had the level of expertise to safely undertake the task (or come up with an alternative plan), that they were using the correct tool for the job and they had taken the applicable hazards into account before launching up the hill.

Beat me by that much... :shifty:

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 12:10

skippa1

9th January 2013, 12:10

Ok katman her's a we scenario for you and hb.

Im on a farm-its damp on the ground and i want to get up a steeper type hill that has a flat'er area on the ridge with a gully up either side.
I have to cross a colvit at the bottom and i have a spray tank on the quad full of spray for gorse up the hill further.

How would you handle the quad up the hill.

ride to the bottom of the hill, stop the bike dismount and put on the backpack sprayer and climb the hill....spray the offending prickly weed and slide back down on yer bum (or take a piece of cardboard up and slide down on that:laugh:)....obvious really if the hill is too damp and the bike is top heavy..........

bogan

9th January 2013, 12:10

Heres your starting point, educate yourself. Get back to me when you have raised your level of understanding, Though you may need some life experience to give it some scope.

http://www.dol.govt.nz/workplace/knowledgebase/item/1391

http://www.osh.dol.govt.nz/law/quickguide/employers/trainingreps.shtml (http://www.dol.govt.nz/workplace/knowledgebase/item/1391)

Fuck that, I've got work to do, its up to those advocating change to justify it.

bogan

9th January 2013, 12:12

ride to the bottom of the hill, stop the bike dismount and put on the backpack sprayer and climb the hill....spray the offending prickly weed and slide back down on yer bum (or take a piece of cardboard up and slide down on that:laugh:)....obvious really if the hill is too damp and the bike is top heavy..........

Or, if the backpack is too heavy, just carry up a small amount of weed killer in your mouth and spit it onto the plant. See, always alternative solutions :shifty:

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 12:13

ride to the bottom of the hill, stop the bike dismount and put on the backpack sprayer and climb the hill....spray the offending prickly weed and slide back down on yer bum (or take a piece of cardboard up and slide down on that:laugh:)....obvious really if the hill is too damp and the bike is top heavy..........

So you would walk 4 kms up the hill 6 times with 15 liters of spray on your back lol.
The sliding down would be fun though.

skippa1

9th January 2013, 12:14

Or, if the backpack is too heavy, just carry up a small amount of weed killer in your mouth and spit it onto the plant. See, always alternative solutions :shifty:

yeah....you could do that to.....maybe if you lined your mouth with wax?:mellow:

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 12:15

Or, if the backpack is too heavy, just carry up a small amount of weed killer in your mouth and spit it onto the plant. See, always alternative solutions :shifty:

Na wrong again.:facepalm:
Drink weed killer and then walk up and buy that time you need a piss so there ya go better coverage>:laugh:

Headbanger

9th January 2013, 12:16

Fuck that, I've got work to do, its up to those advocating change to justify it.

Remain ignorant then, But don't consider that a position to talk utter shit.

I know I have pointed it out a number of times, But the investigations you call for have already been undertaken, resulting in the training and guidelines that you reject because you already know everything by virtue of your ignorance.

Headbanger

9th January 2013, 12:17

What a copout.
How about answering the question with all your knowledge and training it should be a cinch.
The hill is not that steep but has a possibility of due ok?.

All of it, right over your head.

Nothing gets in at all does it?

duckonin

9th January 2013, 12:19

Im on a farm-its damp on the ground and i want to get up a steeper type hill that has a flat'er area on the ridge with a gully up either side.
I have to cross a colvit at the bottom and i have a spray tank on the quad full of spray for gorse up the hill further.

How would you handle the quad up the hill.

Huh easy, give it shit like most farmers/workers would or wait until the slope is dry of course that was (a joke). simple as 'using ones head, to work it out.

Seriously to ask a question like that is dumb, assessment is on the spot . Is it safe or should I approach this another way.

Quads will be left in the shed for a month soon, then we shall have another spat of tractor accidents to talk shit about.

skippa1

9th January 2013, 12:22

So you would walk 4 kms up the hill 6 times with 15 liters of spray on your back lol.
The sliding down would be fun though.
my backpack sprayer is 15litres.........edit* opppss I see that you mean 90 litres of spray.......ah fuck spraying it, cant you talk it into leaving?

bogan

9th January 2013, 12:22

Remain ignorant then, But don't consider that a position to talk utter shit.

I know I have pointed it out a number of times, But the investigations you call for have already been undertaken, resulting in the training and guidelines that you reject because you already know everything by virtue of your ignorance.

You've claimed it yes, but not given a link to where I can review the investigations. Tell you what, post one link to such investigations, I'll spend at least 5 mins reading it and either agree or point out the assumptions they make which imo invalidate the findings. Here's you chance to shine, to shut me up and prove to all the internet just what a smart guy you are, are you up to the challenge?

Headbanger

9th January 2013, 12:25

You've claimed it yes, but not given a link to where I can review the investigations. Tell you what, post one link to such investigations, I'll spend at least 5 mins reading it and either agree or point out the assumptions they make which imo invalidate the findings. Here's you chance to shine, to shut me up and prove to all the internet just what a smart guy you are, are you up to the challenge?

Heres your starting point, educate yourself. Get back to me when you have raised your level of understanding, Though you may need some life experience to give it some scope.

http://www.dol.govt.nz/workplace/knowledgebase/item/1391

(http://www.dol.govt.nz/workplace/knowledgebase/item/1391)http://www.osh.dol.govt.nz/law/quickguide/employers/trainingreps.shtml

bogan

9th January 2013, 12:27

Heres your starting point, educate yourself. Get back to me when you have raised your level of understanding, Though you may need some life experience to give it some scope.

http://www.dol.govt.nz/workplace/knowledgebase/item/1391

(http://www.dol.govt.nz/workplace/knowledgebase/item/1391)http://www.osh.dol.govt.nz/law/quickguide/employers/trainingreps.shtml

I think you copied the wrong links, neither of them mention anything about quad bike investigations.

Headbanger

9th January 2013, 12:32

I think you copied the wrong links, neither of them mention anything about quad bike investigations.

There is a lot you need to know to relieve yourself of your ignorance, start at the start, educate yourself.

Your internet challenge is as pathetic as it is pointless, If you want to learn then do so.

Clearly I don't have the investigations or reports, nor am I looking for them.

What we do have is the listing of common errors that cause incidents ,Provided by DOL (you know, the guys that invesigate incidents) in bullet form for easy understanding by the great unwashed.

Speed – rushing and trying to do too much, too fast
Driving too fast for the conditions, e.g. steep, wet, and rough ground
Turning too sharply
Misjudging the ATVs capabilities and limitations
Overconfidence, complacency, and a lack of concentration
Lack of knowledge, skill, and experience
Neglecting ATV maintenance
Use of incorrect tires
Carrying passengers and cargo
Overloading, uneven loading, and loads carried on slopes

Ways to protect yourself

Wear a helmet
Wear appropriate footwear
Establish the safe routes and areas to ride an ATV
Ensure that tracks and access-ways are maintained
Avoid steep terrain
Reduce speed to a safe and appropriate level for the conditions
Complete a NZQA accredited training course to increase the driver’s knowledge, awareness, and skill level. Visit www.nzqa.govt.nz (http://www.nzqa.govt.nz/) for more information.
ATVs are not designed to carry passengers or cargo
Children under 12 are not permitted to drive an ATV
Children between 12 and 15 should not drive an ATV unless they are physically capable of controlling it, and have had training

bogan

9th January 2013, 12:46

Clearly I don't have the investigations or reports, nor am I looking for them.

And investigation reports and hard data are the only thing that will relieve us of our ignorance. You can tell a lot about the effectiveness of proposed legislation by the transparency of the data used to push it, and things are looking mighty murky from here. And no, I don't need to read a bunch of websites before I know how to interpret a report; using such sites as supplementary investigation once I have the report is likely though.

Looks like you'll have to work extra hard today to make up internet points for backing down from a challenge. :sweatdrop

ducatilover

9th January 2013, 13:25

I'll poke my nose in.

I like training schemes, but that's just me.
The majority of quad bike accidents I've seen and known of (that's a lot, although I haven't crashed one...yet) have been rider error (stupid, non-thinking or drunk)
Katman also has a good point with poor quality upkeep on many farm bikes, I've seen plenty enough shitters to know that (one good time, a mudbug snapped in half on a flat road with my brother riding...)

That is all.

Oh, I believe the biggest cause in quad accidents is incompetence. Legislating moar safety stuff may help with recreational people, but then again... it may not do anything

Banditbandit

9th January 2013, 13:31

Headbanger

9th January 2013, 13:37

And investigation reports and hard data are the only thing that will relieve us of our ignorance. You can tell a lot about the effectiveness of proposed legislation by the transparency of the data used to push it, and things are looking mighty murky from here. And no, I don't need to read a bunch of websites before I know how to interpret a report; using such sites as supplementary investigation once I have the report is likely though.

Looks like you'll have to work extra hard today to make up internet points for backing down from a challenge. :sweatdrop

Go do an ATV course f you want to educate yourself on ATV's.

Thats not what you are after though, You have already dismissed training and advocated "shooting from the hip" instead. You have dismissed the actions from the investigations undertaken by people with real world expertise in this area based on the fact that didn't get to define or interpret the data.

And you think you have posted something of merit?

Edbear

9th January 2013, 13:51

bogan

9th January 2013, 13:51

Go do an ATV course f you want to educate yourself on ATV's.

Thats not what you are after though, You have already dismissed training and advocated "shooting from the hip" instead. You have dismissed the actions from the investigations undertaken by people with real world expertise in this area based on the fact that didn't get to define or interpret the data.

And you think you have posted something of merit?

No wonder you don't want to read the investigation, if that is what you got from my posts you clearly have reading comprehension difficulties :confused:

Banditbandit

9th January 2013, 14:21

Fuck .. enough already - 13 pages of babbling bulshit about quads ...

Silly hat time ...

http://www.style-people.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Funny-Hat-4.jpg

Zedder

9th January 2013, 14:29

[QUOTE=Banditbandit;1130462293]Fuck .. enough already - 13 pages of babbling bulshit about quads ...

Silly hat time ...

You idiot, far too much levity at this stage of proceedings!

BigAl

9th January 2013, 14:36

Fuck .. enough already - 13 pages of babbling bulshit about quads ...

Silly hat time ...

Best idea all topic

275954

unstuck

9th January 2013, 15:32

Zedder

9th January 2013, 15:42

[QUOTE=BigAl;1130462305]Best idea all topic

Obviously a good time for it then.

Ocean1

9th January 2013, 15:50

Well we mostly agree except I'm not getting your point regarding the relationship between safety engineers and quad bikes? Assuming the quad passed an initial safety standard (ie the design) I can only see the terrain as a factor where engineering could make a difference. ie properly formed, inspected and maintained farm tracks etc.

Yes - there is a price on preserving a human life and the role of laws/regulations is to reduce that cost by preventing as many silly accidents as possible. I agree that there is a trend towards overkill but equally as many examples where that approach works.

Sorry, I thought we'd moved on to a general OSH shitfest. In which case I was pointing out that the whole approach to safety has moved from specialists who's job it was to protect companies and workers by quantifying risk and providing solutions to minimise it, to our current system which basically says: "We don't give a fuck how you manage it but if there's an accident we'll see you in court". The result of which is that we no longer have the ability to cost OSH activities at all, let alone compare them with ACC costs that are rammed down our throats whether we want it or not.

And the overkill's there precicely because there's no industry-wide "Best Practice" as there once was. Used to be that in designing equipment guarding and interlocks I could get everything I legally needed from industry standards publications. I can't do that now. And no matter how experienced and careful I am I can still find myself on the end of a prosecution for an event I had absolutely no control over. Luckilly I still know how to handle risk. About 40% of a project budget's typical 20% contingency is OSH related, and it's non-refundable. I was told recently that over half of the the cost of Northrop Grummans' private plane sales in the US is litigation contingency.

Ocean1

9th January 2013, 15:52

You wouldn't know shit from clay.

Reckon I do. Shit's what you get when you confront your opinion with facts demonstrating that you're full of it.

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 15:55

Is the fully loaded spray tank on the front or rear of the quad? (It will make a difference)

Thankyou for pointing that out bandit and in answer it is on the rear.
By asking that question i think it shows you are thinking about the problem and maybe you solution will be outside the square like mine is.

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 16:00

All of it, right over your head.

Nothing gets in at all does it?

No not over my head.
what i posted re the hill problem you dont in you infinite wisdom want to answer is a valid simple senario that one could ask a prospective employ'e to asess the knowlege and competance of that person to decide what level of training said person needs.

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 16:02

Huh easy, give it shit like most farmers/workers would or wait until the slope is dry of course that was (a joke). simple as 'using ones head, to work it out.

Seriously to ask a question like that is dumb, assessment is on the spot . Is it safe or should I approach this another way.

Quads will be left in the shed for a month soon, then we shall have another spat of tractor accidents to talk shit about.

no its not - see above post above for a reason for asking it.

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 16:03

my backpack sprayer is 15litres.........edit* opppss I see that you mean 90 litres of spray.......ah fuck spraying it, cant you talk it into leaving?

:laugh:send hatman and hardonbanger up there with the dribble they talk the whole hillside would be clear.

Headbanger

9th January 2013, 16:10

And the overkill's there precicely because there's no industry-wide "Best Practice" as there once was. Used to be that in designing equipment guarding and interlocks I could get everything I legally needed from industry standards publications. I can't do that now. And no matter how experienced and careful I am I can still find myself on the end of a prosecution for an event I had absolutely no control over.

That sadly is right on the money.

scumdog

9th January 2013, 16:18

Because the 'large percentage', and 'poor condition' and their effects are not quantified, it is purely subjective. Establish the facts then work from there, it really is a nice, simple, common sense, approach.

Hmm, I'll count all the bent and rusted out frames behind the local Suzuki and Honda shops one day, there's quite a few.
I think dairy-effluent created rust is more common that crash-damage or damage from towing bull-dozers...

scumdog

9th January 2013, 16:20

I blame the friggen
"Original Warrior" for starting this thread.

Rideon mowers will be the next target .

Who-ya-talkin-bout Willis??<_<

scumdog

9th January 2013, 16:23

its not a lack of skills that get people killed.

No, it's poor judgement, a lack of understanding of physics and a piss-poor perception of danger and consequence that kill and mains most of them.:yes:

flyingcrocodile46

9th January 2013, 17:40

No, it's poor judgement, a lack of understanding of physics and a piss-poor perception of danger and consequence that kill and mains most of them.:yes:

Yup! A distinct lack of good old fashioned common dog fuck

doc

9th January 2013, 19:27

Who-ya-talkin-bout Willis??<_<

:gob: :innocent: :blink:

That Shrek is the one your after. Those rideons are just accidents waiting to happen

doc

9th January 2013, 19:29

No, it's poor judgement, a lack of understanding of physics and a piss-poor perception of danger and consequence :yes:

Yep that him.

_Shrek_

9th January 2013, 20:10

Why not?

Work place machinery is expected to be of a safe standard.

Why shouldn't farmers be expected to keep their bikes in an equally safe standard?

no good taking just part of what I said KM, I don't have a problem with work place machinery being up to a safe standard or any other gear etc...

I object to knee jerk reactions to accidents by the powers to be just because a bunch of tossers that also took a kid & rode a quad pissed & got hurt
so what would adding more bull shit laws do to stop this, short answer jack shit

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 20:31

No, it's poor judgement, a lack of understanding of physics and a piss-poor perception of danger and consequence that kill and mains most of them.:yes:

Your right there bud and all the training in the world (beyond a certain level) is not going to change that.

I like the physics bit as i was fishing with that in mind when i gave the question about the hill and spray tank to see if anybody would take the bait as to how to tackel the hill but sadly nobody is keen to give it a go:shutup:

Zedder

9th January 2013, 20:36

Your right there bud and all the training in the world (beyond a certain level) is not going to change that.

I like the physics bit as i was fishing with that in mind when i gave the question about the hill and spray tank to see if anybody would take the bait as to how to tackel the hill but sadly nobody is keen to give it a go:shutup:

I don't think you got back to Banditbandit who asked where the tank was located.

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 20:43

I don't think you got back to Banditbandit who asked where the tank was located.

:bleh:Did too post 190 page 13:yes:

FJRider

9th January 2013, 20:45

I don't think you got back to Banditbandit who asked where the tank was located.

I think it's located in the Ida valley ... in Central Otago. ... :yes:

_Shrek_

9th January 2013, 20:47

:gob: :innocent: :blink:

That Shrek is the one your after. Those rideons are just accidents waiting to happen

:finger: I'll have you know that we wear our hi-viz & I wear my seat belt on the tracter

:shifty: & take them where they shouldn't coz we can :bleh:

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 20:49

I think it's located in the Ida valley ... in Central Otago. ... :yes:

Nuff outa you fella if i want any shit outa you i will run you over with my quad - wouldnt be a big bump:shutup:

FJRider

9th January 2013, 20:50

No, it's poor judgement, a lack of understanding of physics and a piss-poor perception of danger and consequence that kill and mains most of them.:yes:

And when it turns to shit for said idiot ... the person that gets the blame, is the person that instructed him/her NOT to ride it that way.

98tls

9th January 2013, 20:51

:finger: I'll have you know that we wear our hi-viz & I wear my seat belt on the tracter

Bullshit,you dont own a Harley.....

Zedder

9th January 2013, 20:55

:bleh:Did too post 190 page 13:yes:

Got it now, post 201 page 14.

I'm not familiar with quad bikes etc but any reason why it can't be backed up the hill? Or change the tank location?

Coolz

9th January 2013, 20:59

Your right there bud and all the training in the world (beyond a certain level) is not going to change that.

I like the physics bit as i was fishing with that in mind when i gave the question about the hill and spray tank to see if anybody would take the bait as to how to tackel the hill but sadly nobody is keen to give it a go:shutup:

Low range and reverse if the bike is so equipt. Otherwise get a six year old to sit on the front.

I type to slow, Zedder beat me to it.

FJRider

9th January 2013, 21:01

Nuff outa you fella if i want any shit outa you i will run you over with my quad - wouldnt be a big bump:shutup:

It's probably only a bloody honda anyway's .. wiith you riding it ... it's probably buggered anyway.

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 21:02

Got it now, post 201 page 14.

I'm not familiar with quad bikes etc but any reason why it can't be backed up the hill? Or change the tank location?

1st prize for thinking and i have reasons for backing up which are valid but will wait on head banger to say why it shouldnt be ridden in such a way cos thats not industry practice.:laugh::corn::corn:

bogan

9th January 2013, 21:02

Got it now, post 201 page 14.

I'm not familiar with quad bikes etc but any reason why it can't be backed up the hill? Or change the tank location?

Hmmm, if you're reversing you'll need the flag man to ensure the sheep don't get backed over :innocent:

98tls

9th January 2013, 21:04

No, it's poor judgement, a lack of understanding of physics and a piss-poor perception of danger and consequence that kill and mains most of them.:yes:

Or lets just call it what it is,there fucking thick.All the do gooders and those paid to come up with excuses for thick fuckers doings changes nothing,thick is thick.Was a time in this country that thick was actually acknowledged as thick but not these days,far better to employ an army of otherwise unemployable fuckers to ignore the ovbious.:facepalm:

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 21:04

Low range and reverse if the bike is so equipt. Otherwise get a six year old to sit on the front.

Woo hoo 2nd prize:Punk: not the six year old though.(obviously)

Zedder

9th January 2013, 21:06

Hmmm, if you're reversing you'll need the flag man to ensure the sheep don't get backed over :innocent:

I was hoping to use the sheep as crash buffers if needed.

Headbanger

9th January 2013, 21:07

Or lets just call it what it is,there fucking thick..:facepalm:

It doesn't help when those in charge also suffer from the same condition.

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 21:08

It's probably only a bloody honda anyway's .. wiith you riding it ... it's probably buggered anyway.

:finger::finger:can am baby. goes like a :shutup:forgot were i was-as you were.:laugh:

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 21:12

Or lets just call it what it is,there fucking thick.All the do gooders and those paid to come up with excuses for thick fuckers doings changes nothing,thick is thick.Was a time in this country that thick was actually acknowledged as thick but not these days,far better to employ an army of otherwise unemployable fuckers to ignore the ovbious.:facepalm:

So now im thick and unemployable in any other industry:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::l augh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:sni ff:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh ::laugh::laugh::laugh:cough cough sniff:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::la ugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::lau gh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laug h:oh dear.

bogan

9th January 2013, 21:12

I was hoping to use the sheep as crash buffers if needed.

This mans a thinker, could even re-purpose them for dinner once they are all buffered out.

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 21:14

I was hoping to use the sheep as crash buffers if needed.

No the powers that be rules say that the orange flashing light and reversing buzzer will be ok.

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 21:15

This mans a thinker, could even re-purpose them for dinner once they are all buffered out.

Buffered out=tenderised:Punk:

bogan

9th January 2013, 21:15

No the powers that be rules say that the orange flashing light and reversing buzzer will be ok.

How is the buzzer going to know when the sheep is reversing though? :confused:

_Shrek_

9th January 2013, 21:18

I blame the friggen
"Original Warrior" for starting this thread.

Rideon mowers will be the next target .

Who-ya-talkin-bout Willis??<_<

aye scummy he be right on that score...... it this what you do at work all day finding new ways?

(Winding up drongos, foil hat wearers and over sensitive KBers for over 12,000 posts...........) :facepalm:

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 21:18

How is the buzzer going to know when the sheep is reversing though? :confused:

:blink::blink:i got nuthin you win:facepalm:

Zedder

9th January 2013, 21:20

This mans a thinker, could even re-purpose them for dinner once they are all buffered out.

And can ya get a shearing attachment for the quad bike as well?

bogan

9th January 2013, 21:25

And can ya get a shearing attachment for the quad bike as well?

They do tow along weed wipers, so although you might not be able to give it a hair cut, you could shampoo it. Might be some demand for that down south...

Headbanger

9th January 2013, 21:27

So now im thick and unemployable in any other industry:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::l augh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:sni ff:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh ::laugh::laugh::laugh:cough cough sniff:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::la ugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::lau gh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laug h:oh dear.

I think you will find that the thick people he was refereeing to were those that have had accidents/hurt themselves or others by fuckwit acts, Rather then yourself who simply doesn't believe there is any benefit in teaching people before they pull a fuckwit stunt.

skippa1

9th January 2013, 21:32

benefit in teaching people before they pull a fuckwit stunt.

I dont need teaching how to pull a fuckwit stunt, I think them up all by myself:shifty:

kiwi cowboy

9th January 2013, 21:40

I think you will find that the thick people he was refereeing to were those that have had accidents/hurt themselves or others by fuckwit acts, Rather then yourself who simply doesn't believe there is any benefit in teaching people before they pull a fuckwit stunt.

I think you are missunderstanding me and if you read some of my posts you would see that i actualy do agree with training up to a point but you can train till your blue in the face but you cant hold people's hand 24 seven to make sure they adhere to the training which is where the personal resposability comes in.

As i have said before i had personal responsibility drumed in as a kid.
When i was riding 30 miles on a friday night in the dark on a horse to get to a weekend job i new if something happened to me i was in trouble and it would be hard and take a while to find me so i took the personal responsibility to make decisions reguarding my safety.

Edbear

10th January 2013, 06:37

No, it's poor judgement, a lack of understanding of physics and a piss-poor perception of danger and consequence that kill and mains most of them.:yes:

I tend to think you have described what a lack of skill entails.

but then I do tend to think a lot... :wacko:

Katman

10th January 2013, 07:24

I object to knee jerk reactions to accidents by the powers to be just because a bunch of tossers that also took a kid & rode a quad pissed & got hurt

I don't think I've referred to that particular accident at all in this thread.

If that accident were the only issue regarding quad bikes I wouldn't have even entered into the fray - (apart from perhaps calling the adults fuckwits).

I am talking specifically about the apalling mechanical state of many of New Zealand's farm bikes and what could be done to improve that standard.

I struggle to see how anyone would argue that improving the safety standard of farm bikes shouldn't be addressed.

_Shrek_

10th January 2013, 08:10

I struggle to see how anyone would argue that improving the safety standard of farm bikes shouldn't be addressed.

aye & I don't disagree with you on this, as I was a heard manager & all the bikes given to us by our employers where up to standard, this was in my contract, along with that the bikes had to be cleaned every week & all service's had to be kept up to date a log book was provided etc... that happened on the last two farms..... so it is happening.....

so at the end of the day it is up to the individual in both maintenance & how they use it - not for some idiot who knows shit about it to start changing laws etc... because of a few who ignor all of the above

Banditbandit

10th January 2013, 08:32

Thankyou for pointing that out bandit and in answer it is on the rear.
By asking that question i think it shows you are thinking about the problem and maybe you solution will be outside the square like mine is.

FUck ... I had a small farm in the North Island hill country ... and a couple of quads on it ... a loaded tank on the rear makes it a very different proposition to a front mounted tank ... I'd prefer it on the front to keep that end of the bike down when going up hills ...

Are you hinting at reversing up the hill ?

unstuck

10th January 2013, 08:33

I was working on a dairy farm in bell block in 84 and refused to ride the farmbike anymore because it had no brakes and kept jumping out of gear, and there was some pretty good hills. Got kicked off the property at 11pm at night. Was a fucking long walk that night. Actually he gave me the option of walking to get the cows or fucking off, I said I would walk, but he told me to fuck off anyway.:Punk:

Banditbandit

10th January 2013, 08:38

unstuck

10th January 2013, 11:33

Yeah .. it woulsd be a long walk from Bell Block to Gore ...

Think I only got about as far as Urenui that night, still a bloody long way. No one wants to pick up a punkrocker in the middle of the night.:weep: Was heading for Whangaparoa anyway, not gore. Didnt even know where gore was back then I dont think.:Punk:

nakedsv

10th January 2013, 16:00

Maybe I'm just a paranoid share milker but I'd hate to see what osh and the labour department would do to me if my worker had an accident on one of my bikes and it wasn't up to scratch. They all get training and specifically instructed not to ride any if the bike has not got everything working properly. Plus limited to a top speed of 30kph
Not that that stopped the ball joint snapping while I was going round a corner a while back, some things you cant prepare for and unfortunately you also cant regulate for stupidity (as much as the government seems to try)