ESE's works engine tuner

[SS90]

All very interesting.

It may be worth noting that Jente and Schnürle worked together in Dresden from 1933 to 1945 (which is odd, as Jente was Jewish..... and that had previously stopped him from being a professor so it would suggest he was something pretty special), and then again right up to Schnürle's death in the mid 50's.

Adolf (haha) Schnürle was Jente's boss actually, and pretty much all the patents around this can be attributed to Jente and his Scavenge pattern work.

Schnürle's initial work was subject to patent's from (I think) 1924 till 1960 (that may be wrong), but after the war, like so many other patents, they where surrendered to the Allies for reparation, which saw the end of cross flow 2 strokes for most of the world.

Jente and Schnürle both wrote books specifically on this subject (rather than just SAE papers), though I am unaware of any of them in English, they where all written in the 50's, so it doesn't really get into the stuff we work with in this day, but the basics are there.

The term "Jente pattern" is simply invented by the writer of the article Teezee posted, Schnürle and Jente themselves used the phrase "Sprülungbild", which translates as "flushing pattern", but now the term "scavenge pattern" has found it's way into the language, but "Sprülung" is more common.


"Jente pattern" is a term invented by the writer.

Oh, history and 2 strokes in the same post!

[F5 Dave]

Interesting. History is writen by the victor & all that, - or at least the latest surviving version.

For the interested, Kaaden has just bitten my watch & clawed my fleece sleeve, but is expected to curl up on the comfy chair if there are no skinks to be found.

[Buckets4Me]

For the interested, Kaaden has just bitten my watch & clawed my fleece sleeve, but is expected to curl up on the comfy chair if there are no skinks to be found.

so whats the skink up to in this cold weather ?. May just have to send in the UN to get the (Dimonds back) I mean keep the peace

[TZ350]

The new chamber.

Mota suggests this chamber will work better with the cylinder we ported earlier than the Honda RS chamber I have been using.

New Chamber
Piston to Ex Flange 55mm, diameter at ex flange 36mm
Cone, One,..36mmDia, 285mmLong , 50mmDia.
Cone, Two,.50mmDia, 172mmLong , 90mmDia.
Cone, Three,90mmDia,108mmLong , 115mmDia.
Cone, Four,115mmDia, 70mmLong , 115mmDia.
Cone, Five,115mmDia, 90mmLong , 85mmDia.
Cone, Six,…85mmDia, 80mmLong , 23mmDia.

Cylinder
Ex opens 86.5 degrees ATDC
Transfers open 114.5 ATDC

Inlet opens 145 BTDC and closes 75 degrees ATDC

All the cone positions were marked on a piece of alloy welding wire, then the wire was bent to a shape that fits the bike.

Then the cone development function of Mota was used to generate the shapes for the bends and print them out. The shapes were taped together to see how well the chamber fits.

Later the paper templates will be cut apart and glued onto steel sheet so the chamber components can be cut out and welded together.

The bends in the header section are like that so the body of the chamber is well forward and fits under the motor as there is a clearance problem around the rear suspension on the FZR for a more conventional sweeping header that places the mid section of the chamber further back.

[F5 Dave]

so whats the skink up to in this cold weather ?. .
Well hiding it appears. The comfy chair wins out.

[speedpro]

Pity you couldn't make that header a single larger radius curve. Long as it works I suppose. Projected hp?? Or does the "work better" comment refer to spread of power?

A 2-stroke better win this year.

[F5 Dave]

Yeah, but just to upset you it may come from the south. Far South.

[Buckets4Me]

Yeah, but just to upset you it may come from the south. Far South.

or Nigel may get his bike to hold together for longer than 3 laps :)

[Yow Ling]

or Nigel may get his bike to hold together for longer than 3 laps :)

Sounds like a cry for help to me. A diesel will take it again

[Buckets4Me]

Sounds like a cry for help to me. A diesel will take it again

if the rider dosent end on his head AGAIN!

[F5 Dave]

or Nigel may get his bike to hold together for longer than 3 laps :)
Actually I have a feeling he has cured a long standing problem & yeah my money would be on him if all is well. But stiff competition is appearing.

[TZ350]

Projected hp?? Or does the "work better" comment refer to spread of power?

Deliberately ambiguous so we don’t have to be bored by someone fixating on a detail and making a grand case out of it………

In simple terms, and omitting a lot of peripheral detail, at the moment I have a cylinder with an exhaust port opening 86.5 degrees ATDC and an RS125 pipe making about 21rwhp at 9,500rpm with good over rev.

Motoa suggests the RS pipe + 40mm in the mid section would be better suited to a cyl with an exhaust opening 80 deg ATDC and would show an improvement in hp with much the same spread.

And the new pipe and old cyl with the exhaust opening 86.5 would out perform both, in spread and hp but would not work at all well with an exhaust opening 80 deg ATDC.

Its that, Motoa suggests the new pipe will be really good with 86.5 and very poor at 80 that interests me, it will be interesting to see how that plays out and if the dyno torque curve is anything like what Motoa predicted.

[SS90]

Its that, Motoa suggests the new pipe will be really good with 86.5 and very poor at 80 that interests me, it will be interesting to see how this plays out on a dyno.

Have you worked out the time area difference with having the port open 86.5 deg compared to 80 Deg?, or are you using the same time areas just with different port widths to keep the time area the same regardless of duration?

[aircooled]

cone 1 285mm + 55 mm, seems to be a long header pipe or is it part of the 1st diffuser?

[TZ350]

cone 1 285mm + 55 mm, seems to be a long header pipe or is it part of the 1st diffuser?

I was thinking of it as a 3 stage diffuser. With the 1st stage diffuser cone as 285mm long +55mm in the exhaust port tract.

Its a bit philosophical, 2 or 3 stage, because at what divergent angle does a header pipe become a diffuser......:(

Not sure what others might call it, as you could say it is a 2 stage with a tapered header.........

[TZ350]

.

Bucketracer, cutting the chamber shapes out, cleaning the paper templates off, rolling the sections up and most of the finished sections ready for welding. There is one section left to make, the template can be seen in the left hand side of pic-04

What interests me, is to see if the boys can develop a chamber by just using an engine simulation package like MOTA.

[TZ350]

.

The things that can trip you up, Bucket and I reconditioned some really excellent forks. We didn’t mix and match anything and used all the essential original parts and when I fitted them to the bike the axel holes don’t line up……..:crazy:.....WTF

[Henk]

Probaby find they are a bit bent. Turn the staunchions a few times and you might find they line up. Did that with the seriously shot forks on my FXR when I bought it. Two man partner rode the race not knowing the forks were toast so it might not be that bad.

[aircooled]

Damn! damper rod springs or rods same length?

[bucketracer]

Damn! damper rod springs or rods same length?

This is where we expect the problem is, so they will have to come apart again.......:crybaby:

[F5 Dave]

Well it's pretty simple to check. you obviously measured the top sticking out of the clamps & you can measure the btm of clamps to the dust seals. if out then damper rod 'issue', perhaps hanging up, or someone has been swaping bits before. if measure the same them something is on the piss.

As Henk sez loosening the clamp & spinning the tube will give the drunken axle wobble. I assume the axle is straight?

[TZ350]

.

Bucket was given the job of sorting the forks out. He found a collection of small errors that had all combined on one side.

In centralising the damper rod piston the rods had been unevenly shortened, the springs were slightly different and the new alloy pistons were unevenly pressed onto the damper rods.

All small errors but they added up.

Bucket corrected what he could and selectivly re-assembled everything else so the forks finished up the same length.

The axel was found to be ok and the tripple clamps were parallel.

The forks were turned until a sweet spot found and the wheel could drop easily under its own weight.

As always the fork caps tried to escape when Chambers was re-fitting them.

[TZ350]

.

A good day at Mt Welly. My first real ride in a year, tried my best to beat the guy coming last but failed miserably, still the 50 was lots of fun.

Avalon was peddling Chambers FZR-GP100 until it lost power, the culprit was a ring locating pin coming lose in the piston.

The exhaust port is 69% although not to wide it possibly was not easing the ring back gently/evenly but rather slamming one end of the ring against its locating pin.

When the pin came out the ring turned and the ring end chewed away at the side of the exhaust port.

Still the bike was going well enough to finish the race and even restarted and limped through the next one........brave little barsteds these 2-smokers

[Henk]

Hard on kit team ESE.

[Yow Ling]

Yea you guys are rough, I havnt blown up an engine since Friday !!!!

[Buckets4Me]

.

A good day at Mt Welly. My first real ride in a year, tried my best to beat the guy coming last but failed miserably, still the 50 was lots of fun.

so that was Keith Biddle you where trying to stay infrount of ?



.Avalon was peddling Chambers FZR-GP100 until it lost power, the culprit was a ring locating pin coming lose in the piston.


When the pin came out the ring turned and the ring end chewed away at the side of the exhaust port.

Still the bike was going well enough to finish the race and even restarted and limped through the next one........brave little barsteds these 2-smokers

So i should not have told her to ring its neck till the end and not worry about the clattering sounds coming form the bike :)

[SS90]

.


Avalon was peddling Chambers FZR-GP100 until it lost power, the culprit was a ring locating pin coming lose in the piston.

The exhaust port is 69% although not to wide it possibly was not easing the ring back gently/evenly but rather slamming one end of the ring against its locating pin.

When the pin came out the ring turned and the ring end chewed away at the side of the exhaust port.

Still the bike was going well enough to finish the race and even restarted and limped through the next one........brave little barsteds these 2-smokers

I like the transfer divider made out of devcon, it should help with the short circuiting on the odd rear transfer/Boost port set up the GP engines have, as well as increasing cylinder filling at high RPM.

Certainly better than nothing.

I can't help but notice the streaks coming up from the top of the exhaust port, almost like that port is too wide (hard to tell from just one image), do you measure the exhaust port width against the chord, or bore width alone?

My experience with that sort of streaking is "right on the limit" as far as width goes, and with the thin modern rings and piston you are using, normally up to 70% is quite safe, Plents of tuners with go more, but the chamfering on such cylinders is much much more than what I can see in the pictures.

I can't quite see the chamfering on the port though (perhaps the damage did away with all that).

It could also be that the somewhat square shape of the exhaust port makes with such as this too extreme.... perhaps the only slightly arched top edge, combined with the square sides is just too much for it all...... It certainly looks as though one side of the ring pushed against the pin causing the damage....my money is on the square sides of the port causing the problem.

If the problem persists, the 100% solution is to make a new liner, and include an exhaust bridge (among other things)

I also find that chamfering the rings grooves in the piston with a triangle port file helps alot too.

[Chambers]

Brought this to make a F5 racer, it has all the fruit like 2.5 and 3.5 X 17 wheels an aprilia engine that you can get good aftermarket chambers and bits for, only done 2.6K and registered. Paid $2.6k, its real fun to ride, and in the end I could not bring myself to convert it into a bucket, who could?...what was I thinking???? currently for sale on Kiwi Trader.........offers...pm me.

213449213450213451

[Chambers]

Ok...another good idea that wasn't, an SDR200 runner, but not registered, VINed or road legal. Was going to have an engine transplant and run in F4, paid $1000, great looking frame and smart sporty looks, uses TZR 2.15F and 2.5R x 17" rims possibly good fun cheep trackday bike or fit a Lonkin 150 4-stroke for buckets, use the SDR200 engine in a go-cart. For sale on Kiwi Trader...........offers..pm me.

213455

[TZ350]

Getting the best out of current setup Calliper Pistons must be un-seized, sliding pins free with high temp grease. Old setups should have pistons pumped out & seals carefully removed with a pick or small screwdriver down the edge but not skewering it. Clean out gunk behind pistons & white build-up in seal grooves (read up how to get them out). Clean totally. Inspect seals. Largely the main inner seals if undamaged will be fine if square in section. Outer Dust seals are less important, but if deformed can pull or jam the pistons causing excessive lever travel or dragging respectively. Replace as required. Corrosion damage to the pistons or the ally bores can often be dressed gently with pot scourer, but at some point are irretrievable.

F5Daves post on brakes is timely as we are cleaning up the brakes on my new FZR bucket. Check out his post as there is plenty of good info there…..we did.

After dismantling, the gunk is scraped out of the piston seal groves and from the back and sides of the piston seals themselves and the pistons cleaned up. Hot water or Meths washes out brake fluid and cleans up rubber parts and Kero or the like can be used to clean road gunk of the metal parts.

As the rubber used in brake systems swells and or rots when in contact with mineral oil or solvents like kero once everything is scraped and washed off it all needs to get a good rinse in hot soapy water to get rid of any oily residue and then rinsed again under the hot tap, then thoroughly dried.

Once every thing is clean it can be re-assembled using proper brake grease or brake fluid..….”but NOT Ordinary Grease or Oil”....... as anything mineral will ruin all the rubber parts in the brake system.

We have found that most times we are able to re-cycle the old rubber piston seals and you know if you got it all perfect when the piston seals suck the pistons back a few thou after you pull the brake on hard then release it.

Stripping and cleaning the brake system on any new project is pretty much a must. Even a lightly dragging brake, can easily have you off in a corner especially if its the front and its wet.

A champher around the edges of the brake pads makes it easy to get the disk back in when changing wheels.

[TZ350]

.

New front caliper mount for the bigger disk and progress on the new chamber that Chambers and Bucket are kindly helping me with. Bucket cut it out and rolled the cones and Chambers is welding it up, I get to hammer and dress up the welds, its not as good looking as those real nifty chambers that you see, but the internal shape and finish is pretty good.

[bucketracer]

Chambers and I are getting there with the new pipe for TeeZee. Chambers has welded it all up and it looks real good. Test fitting it, it has sufficent clearance from the front wheel when it is fully compressed and it fits under the engine as planned.

[bucketracer]

Crankcase Compression Ratios Revisited

Primary or crankcase compression ratio is determined by dividing the full crankcase volume including transfers with the piston at TDC by the crankcase clearance volume with the piston at BDC.

For a 125 the ratio will probably be some where between 1.3:1 and 1.5:1, also according to Blair it is very difficult to get a 50 above 1.4:1 and a 500 below 1.55:1.

Pic-01 the good old Suzuki GP125

Pic-02 I found greasing the piston crown and around the piston in the exhaust port then plugging it with paper towels sealed it up OK with out any leaks.

Pic-03 I used anti freeze and a measuring cylinder to measure the crankcase volume. After pouring the anti freeze in through the inlet port and wriggling the engine to get all the air out I found the full crankcase volume with the piston at TDC to be 470cc.

Pic-04 The engine simulation package Mota requires the crankcase clearance volume below the piston crown when the piston is at bottom dead center (BDC), excluding transfer duct volumes. From the bore and stroke and the transfer duct area of the engine being simulated and it works out the full crankcase volume for itself.

Crankcase compression ratio (Primary Compression Ratio).

Terms
Full crankcase Volume = FV
Crankcase Clearance Volume = CCV
Primary Compression Ratio = PCR
Engine Capacity = CC

Formula
FV/CCV = PCR

As
CCV = FV-CC

Then the formula becomes
FV/(FV-CC)=PCR

Then for the GP125 the primary compression ratio is…….

470/(470-125)=1.36

The Suzuki GP125 has a crankcase compression ratio or primary compression ratio of 1.36:1

[bucketracer]

I have found the MOTA Engine Simulation package very useful in giving us direction in engine development. Once you have measured and entered all the relevant dimensions of the engine the simulation package will give you an idea of the affect on the motor of any changes you make to port timing, pipe, carb etc.

Pic-01 A simulation of the GP engine with its restrictive 24mm carb at 1.3 (blue line) and 1.5:1 (red line) primary compression ratio showing the better overall crankcase delivery ratio for 1.5:1 with the original 24mm carb.

Pic-02 A simulation of the GP engine with a larger 28mm carb and 1.3:1 primary compression ratio and better delivery ratio with improved crankcase filling compared to the 24mm carb and 1.5:1

Pic-03 A MOTA simulation of the GP125 compared to a real dyno graph of the same motor. There is a difference in power and torque as the dyno is reading RWHP which is less than MOTA’s simulated crank HP. Also if the MOTA graph was stretched out more it would look more like the dyno graph but it is good enough to see that the shape of the curves are pretty close and the simulation is not a bad representation of the real thing.

So the moral of the story is, run a 100cc engine with a big carb or for a 125, a 24mm carb and plenum chamber like the one TeeZee is working on.

Sorry the pictures aren't in any sensible order, even when they are selected in order Kiwi Biker seems to load them randomly and I have had to change the order of the text to suit the pictures.

[SS90]

So the moral of the story is, run a 100cc engine with a plenum chamber like the one TeeZee is working on.



I almost forgot about that, how is that coming along?........

[bucketracer]

HotRods Catalog, scratch around on this site and you can find all sorts of interesting info on connecting rod dimensions. http://www.hotrodsproducts.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=Controller.home

Poke around here and you can find all sorts of usefull dimension info on pistons Etc 2 & 4 stroke:- http://www.tkrj.co.jp/goods/m-AK0390X--1091.php

A catalog search engine, pistons, rod kits etc. http://www.who-sells-it.com/r/mahle-pistons-2-stroke.html

Electric water pumps:- http://www.daviescraig.com.au/Electric_Water_Pumps-ELECTRIC_BOOSTER_PUMP_12V_SHORT___PART_No__9002-details.aspx

[TZ350]

Links page 160, links gathered from the last 10 pages, more link collections on pages 150 140 130……… etc to page 80

Handy Port Timing Calculator. For Calculating Port Timing from Port Height and Vice Versa
http://www.lostsoulssc.com/porttiming.htm

Interesting new 2-Stroke engine from Lotus:-
http://www.grouplotus.com/manageshowcase/uploadpassthru/8628.swf

Fundamentals:- www.kartweb.com/TechArt/2Stroke/chapter1.doc
Pipes:- www.kartweb.com/TechArt/2Stroke/chapter2.doc
Chambers:- www.kartweb.com/TechArt/2Stroke/chapter3.doc

PDF of NGK racing plugs here:-
http://www.elit.cz/Files/ObrazkyPModdeleni/Elektro/NGK/brochure_racingplugs_ENG.pdf

Signal shaping for a Dyno RPM pickup. SportsDevices show how this can be done with a 555 timer:-
http://www.sportdevices.com/rpm_readings/index.htm

Posted by Bert. http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/parallel_output.html#input
Provides some insight (and code snips), but some quality time spent googling will un-earth what you require to fully build up the required code.
or look for a USB interface option http://www.usbee.com/freqc.html

Two-stroke ignition systems http://www.strappe.com/ignition.html
How you can read spark plugs and select them - by Gordon Jennings http://www.strappe.com/plugs.html
Suspension tuning http://www.strappe.com/suspension.html sag spring rate, fork oil, oil weight, oil level and emulators.

Save the stuffing around and go buy one of these digital, programmable ignitions http://www.ignitech.cz/english/aindex.htm originally posted by K14

Setup info here:- http://www.twostrokeshop.com/ignitech_race.htm and http://www.twostrokeshop.com/ignitech.htm

The actual software can be downloaded from here for free http://www.ignitech.cz/english/aindex.htm we have the dccdip2_en version.

Old Hondas never die. Total weight 74 Kg. See here http://www.marshland.co.nz/CB150Frame.html

The main things that make more power, are, and in order of priority (1) the primary transfer tangential angle, (2) the inner transfer port radius, (3) the main transfer port axial inclination, (4) and main transfer port open size and shape. All high lighted in pic 2. Get a copy of the paper from here:- http://www.2stroke-tuning.nl/media/pdfjes/porting.pdf

From Bert. and why not http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3938730721422144363# the concerning thing is that they are going faster than my bucket ever will.
What about these puppies for sh!ts and giggles if your feeling rich ( i think someone posted them before):
http://www.rceracing.com/lowfriccerbe.html

[TZ350]

.

Retarding the ignition to extend the rev range combined with water injected into the expansion chamber and you could add a lot to the drivability of a race engine.

An article about water injection for a 2-stroke..... http://www.suzuki-rg500.com/water.htm

Combine the green and red water injection lines in pic-01 to improve the bottom end, and combine the blue and green lines in pic-02 with a retarding ignition for top end over rev and one could significantly improve the width of the power band.

This must be possible with our programmable ignitions.

I am so looking forward to having the FZR with its new motor finished, so I can try this stuff out and give the plenum chamber some proper run time on a dyno,.

[TZ350]

Testing and development of the plenum was cut a bit short last time when we realized there was an oiling problem, the pre-mix was leaving a very great deal of its oil behind in the plenum and only a doubtful amount was making it through to the motor.

We hadn't thought about it, but its obvious now, that as the wet fuel evaporates in the plenum chamber the lubricating oil will drop out, just like it does inside the motor when it has a normal carb setup.

And another thing that Foxed us for a while was the length of the inlet tract inside the plenum, we had it to short and it took a while to find a length that worked.

We didn’t get a proper back to back dyno run as the run with the normal carb setup was done with the inlet closing at 85 degrees ATDC and the first and only session on the dyno with the plenum was with the inlet closing only 35 degrees ATDC.

Clearly 35 is way to short but we had wanted to start low and incrementally increase the plenums closing point to find its sweet spot but testing stopped when we realized the significance of the oil build up in the bottom of the plenum chamber.

Both the normal carb setup closing at 85 and the plenum at a short 35 ATDC produced good power, 21 and 20 RWHP respectively, so it looks like optimizing the inlet timing for the plenum might well put it ahead of the standard carb setup.

Water injection, retarding ignition, plenum and the new chamber developed by Bucket using Mota, could be enough for good power and sufficient tractability to be usable with the old GP 5 speed gearbox, anyway I am looking forward to finding out.

Lots to do and it will still be a month or two before we finish the new bike and find out for sure.

Can't Wait...........

[bucketracer]

.

Dads taken over the kitchen table again,
Dads in trouble when she who must be obeyed gets home .......:spanking:......:crybaby:

Haha ......... should be more laughs than a barrel full of monkeys.........:lol:

He will have to take all his "JUNK" back to the workshop tomorrow.

[quallman1234]

I am assuming the engine used for the testing of the plenum chamber is a GP100.

In which case, perhaps connecting the original oil pump would be a quick and easy solution to fix the oil problem and continue developing it.

[jasonu]

I am assuming the engine used for the testing of the plenum chamber is a GP100.

In which case, perhaps connecting the original oil pump would be a quick and easy solution to fix the oil problem and continue developing it.

Nice thinking

[Buckets4Me]

I am assuming the engine used for the testing of the plenum chamber is a GP100.

In which case, perhaps connecting the original oil pump would be a quick and easy solution to fix the oil problem and continue developing it.

it would be if it hadent been REMOVED in the interests of saving weight :) or some other such folly

gp125 engine

[TZ350]

I am assuming the engine used for the testing of the plenum chamber is a GP100.

In which case, perhaps connecting the original oil pump would be a quick and easy solution to fix the oil problem and continue developing it.

Good Idea but requires a little work. The engine is a GP125 and in the interests of weight saving and hotting it up we had discarded all the internal parts that drive the oil pump and cut the end off the gearbox shaft that supports the transfer gear.........:slap:....Duh

So have to fit a new g/box output shaft and find somewhere for the oil to be injected, it originally went into the carb but that would not work this time.

Thinking of injecting it through the barrel just under the exhaust port like the Suzuki RGV250's do.

Another idea is to have the inlet tract just suck it up through a small tube hanging down to the plenum floor.

[quallman1234]

Either way would work fine.

Some of the older Suzuki's have two hoses coming off the oil pump, you might be able to make one fit, and that way you could run a hose to the exhaust port like you say and perhaps another slightly lower to aid the crank/main bearings. TC125 has a oil pump like that. Where as my TF125 has only a single going just below the reed block into the barrel.

[TZ350]

.

Yep, right on.........

[bucketracer]

.
The little midnight Elves at Team ESE have been playing again........

Came to work Monday and found this on the bench.......

[F5 Dave]

Ha. There you go DD. Just what I was talking about, although with piston port setup. There are other ways too.

Still end up with a fairly big engine & 5 speed gearbox.

[Buckets4Me]

Still end up with a fairly big engine & 5 speed gearbox.

big engine. I bet it's smaller than the 4 cylinder watercooled 4stroke they removed to make room for it

[TZ350]

.

The new cylinder to go with Bucketracers new pipe design.

The ex opens 86 deg ATDC and is 75% of the bore width.

The transfers open 114 deg ATDC and the main transfers angle up at 25 deg, the secondary's at 5 deg and the boost port at 60 deg.

The first picture is an old std cylinder.

The second pictures shows the difference between the old secondary transfer on the right at 45 deg and on the left the new wider transfer.

The third picture is of the exhaust at 75%.

Forth picture is the transfer wall angles in yellow and blue, red, purple are the directions of a water jet from the garden hose.

[Yow Ling]

Wow, thats pretty flash bit of work. Hope it goes as good as it looks

[TZ350]

Wow, thats pretty flash bit of work...
Thanks


...Hope it goes as good as it looks
Me to...........

[ac3_snow]

Hello,

whos the man building the fzr, is it ready to ride yet. whats it like weight wize compared to a 'smaller' 125 or similar, or does the 'better handling' make up for a lil extra weight??
cheers,
just curious, you guys get up to some pretty interesting/serious work!!

[F5 Dave]

Ahh, so finally, is that a starting attempt at a proper boost port at the back?

The std is rubbish & I'd pointed out to Tex when he showed me his GP a year or two back that filling it up & starting again with a proper rear entry was the logical choice. Since he has now bought a dirty diesel & hasn't done it anyway it's no odds.

[TZ350]

Hello, whos the man building the fzr, is it ready to ride yet. whats it like weight wize compared to a 'smaller' 125 or similar, or does the 'better handling' make up for a lil extra weight?? cheers, just curious, you guys get up to some pretty interesting/serious work!!

Thanks for your interest.....

In the team there are two Honda RS125 chassis with Suzuki GP125's in them, from memory, all up they weigh about 75kg, the handling is superb and the young guys who ride them swear by them, but they can be cramped to ride.

And there are two Yamaha FZR250 chassis with GP's for those on the team who prefer armchair comfort with their racing. the FZR's at 81 and 93kg weigh about the same as the 90kg stripped down Suzuki GP125's they replaced. One of the FZR's has wire wheels and is 12kg lighter than the other one.

9kg diff in the wheels and another 2-3kg in the smaller disk, calipers, cut down sub frame and lighter chamber. The FZR's look big but are 10+kg lighter than most Suzuki FXR's which are typically 105-110kg.

In running the FZR's we are looking at riding comfort and better handling than the old Suzuki GP chassis could manage. We are getting reasonable hp but figure good handling will get us further now than extra hp will. There are three F5 bikes, two runners and one a work in progress and two of the old Suzuki GP's are going to be kept on as loan bikes when we can get some good standard engines for them.

Only one of the FZR's is on the track at the moment, it took 250 hours of work to get it there. The other is still a little way off yet but getting there. Most of the team and particularity Chambers try to do an hour or two on their projects most nights. I post what I can of what they are up too. Speedpro also runs an FZR with a very quick Honda MB100 motor, he is the one who got us interested in them.

[speedpro]

. whats it like weight wize compared to a 'smaller' 125 or similar, or does the 'better handling' make up for a lil extra weight??
cheers,
just curious,

The better handling easily makes up for the extra weight. Plus there is plenty of room to fit any motor combination you want and radiators or anything.

[gav]

Yip, probably even get an FXR motor in there! :innocent: :yes:

[TZ350]

Yip, probably even get an FXR motor in there! :innocent: :yes:

Yep certainly could but won't.....:laugh:......

But we do have some CB/SL 100 motors (std bore they are actually 99cc) and are tempted to build a water cooled supercharged 4-stroke, now that would be fun...;)

[Ned Kelly]

Thanks for your interest.....

In the team there are two Honda RS125 chassis with Suzuki GP125's in them, from memory, all up they weigh about 75kg, the handling is superb and the young guys who ride them swear by them, but they can be cramped to ride.

And there are two Yamaha FZR250 chassis with GP's for those on the team who prefer armchair comfort with their racing. the FZR's at 81 and 93kg weigh about the same as the 90kg stripped down Suzuki GP125's they replaced. One of the FZR's has wire wheels and is 12kg lighter than the other one.

9kg diff in the wheels and another 2-3kg in the smaller disk, calipers, cut down sub frame and lighter chamber. The FZR's look big but are 10+kg lighter than most Suzuki FXR's which are typically 105-110kg.

In running the FZR's we are looking at riding comfort and better handling than the old Suzuki GP chassis could manage. We are getting reasonable hp but figure good handling will get us further now than extra hp will. There are three F5 bikes, two runners and one a work in progress and two of the old Suzuki GP's are going to be kept on as loan bikes when we can get some good standard engines for them.

Only one of the FZR's is on the track at the moment, it took 250 hours of work to get it there. The other is still a little way off yet but getting there. Most of the team and particularity Chambers try to do an hour or two on their projects most nights. I post what I can of what they are up too. Speedpro also runs an FZR with a very quick Honda MB100 motor, he is the one who got us interested in them.

And you forgot the Aprilia 125 that is tucked away at the back of the container for a rainy day project

[speedpro]

tempted to build a water cooled supercharged 4-stroke, now that would be fun...;)

You forgot engine management. It just happens I have management system and a little supercharger which could be used for a good cause.

[Buckets4Me]

You forgot engine management. It just happens I have management system and a little supercharger which could be used for a good cause.

that sounds like a side chair project to me :)

[Buckets4Me]

You forgot engine management. It just happens I have management system and a little supercharger which could be used for a good cause.

that sounds like a sidechair project to me :)

[speedpro]

echo . . . . echo . . .

[TZ350]

You forgot engine management. It just happens I have management system and a little supercharger which could be used for a good cause.

I am keen to build a supercharged 4-stroke but first I have to get my FZR on the track with its 2-stroke GP125 motor and test the plenum idea, after that I can start into a 4-stroke. I have been thinking of turning the supercharger with a 2-stroke Pocket Bike motor.

The rules limit a supercharged motor that's driving the bike to a 99cc 4-stroke but there is nothing in the rules that says the blower has to be driven by the prime mover and you could have two motors the supercharged one driving the bike and another, a 2-stroke turning the blower.

The FZR certainly has enough room..........

[Kickaha]

The rules limit a supercharged motor that's driving the bike to a 99cc 4-stroke but there is nothing in the rules that says the blower has to be driven by the prime mover and you could have two motors the supercharged one driving the bike and another, a 2-stroke turning the blower.

The rules quite clearly set an overall capacity limit, if you have two motors regardless of whether one is driving a supercharger or not you will be over it, unless of course both motors total less than 100cc

You should clarify it with MNZ before you bother because I doubt you would get away with it

[ajturbo]

come on Kick...
who really cares if THIS bike would be legal or not...

it would be great to see it on a track near us....:Punk::Punk:

it would only be a problem if it wins... but then again if 3 or more were made, they could have thier own class..:scooter::scooter:

[Kickaha]

come on Kick...
who really cares if THIS bike would be legal or not...

Probably most people who build their bikes within the rules :bleh:


it would be great to see it on a track near us....:Punk::Punk: yeah it would, although I haven't seen any I know there have been supercharged bikes built before


it would only be a problem if it wins...

So you won't mind me running methanol or running a 175-200cc bike or anything else outside the rules after all it'll only be a problem it it wins:shifty:

[Buckets4Me]

so you are getting worried that we will bring a superchared fzr 100 with a startermotor running the supercharger

:)

[Kickaha]

so you are getting worried that we will bring a superchared fzr 100 with a startermotor running the supercharger

:)

SO far not to many of the NI guys have shown we have much to be worried about:msn-wink:

[TZ350]

The rules quite clearly set an overall capacity limit, if you have two motors regardless of whether one is driving a supercharger or not you will be over it,

The rules quite clearly state that you can only have a supercharged 4-stroke motor of less than 100cc.

And the intent of the rule is clear, its so you can run a motorcycle powered with a supercharged 4-stroke engine in F4 if you want to.

They do not say the supercharger has to be driven by the motorcycles own motor, what if it was driven by a rubber band or an electric motor or a turbo charger fired by LPG, or an external heat engine like a sterling engine or from a big bottle of compressed air or nitrous oxide, or off the rear wheel or by the rider peddling a bicycle crank or blown with an old forge bellows operated by the rider vigorously clenching their butt cheeks together. There are so many possibilities.

An internal heat engine, what makes that different to the other ways of spinning the supercharger?

Anyway I might enjoy a robust debate with MNZ, and as much as we like to play with things that are a bit out there, just for shits and giggles mind........:D....... team ESE would never compete with something that wasn't accepted by the majority of riders.

[TZ350]

SO far not to many of the NI guys have shown we have much to be worried about:msn-wink:

That,s true, there are some pretty good bikes and riders down south.......:yes:........but we are working on it and would love to get out on the longer SI tracks..

[TZ350]

come on Kick... who really cares if THIS bike would be legal or not...

it would only be a problem if it wins...

Well it won't ever be a problem if I am the one riding it.........:laugh:

[ajturbo]

just do it...!!!

and wind OLD Kick up ..!!!:innocent:

[TZ350]

.
Another possibility is a turbo with nitrous oxide for low end boost before the turbo spools up..........

Nitrous is within the present fuel rules as its not a fuel but an oxidant that allows more fuel to be burnt, just like the extra air from a supercharger does.......

[ac3_snow]

geeze bucket racer how many fzrs do you need?!hhaha
whats you limit cause if its more than i can afford il stop bidding now and leave u to it

[TZ350]

Team ESE use Bucketracers account for stuff on Trademe...

Autobid of $367

We wont bid any more......

Finishes shortly Good luck

Are you going to build a bucket?

[ac3_snow]

pretty sure I don't have that much, will see how it goes. Yeap i was out there last month on my yb100 but wanting a lil somthing else that i can build up that might handle just a little bit better :laugh: and i can build with a 125 two stroke.
gunna head out there now for a bit of a slide around in the wet!

[F5 Dave]

SO far not to many of the NI guys have shown we have much to be worried about:msn-wink:
I was thinking with a spare crankcase machined right down & bolted with slimline laybrinth seal to the 50 cases with another RG barrel & pressed crank would still fit in the RS chassis. . .

[Kickaha]

I was thinking with a spare crankcase machined right down & bolted with slimline laybrinth seal to the 50 cases with another RG barrel & pressed crank would still fit in the RS chassis. . .

Will that be ready before or after you finish your 100cc bike?

[F5 Dave]

Touche. But you get my drift & I just thought of it on the spot. I almost clambered downstairs to measure my spare cases. But after riding Diesel's 100 that was weapon enough & it ain't powerful.

[bucketracer]

The Gazz... on a CB125T leads the FXR's home at Mt Wellington........Sun 15th.

[F5 Dave]

& this is relevant to a two stroke tuning thread, how?

[bucketracer]

I know its a bit of a stretch.....but like ours, its a home built-tuned-hotted-up bucket and it gives us hope we might get one of ours up there too one day soon.

[TZ350]

It worked on the 28mm carb (last 2 pictures), so now time to try sleeveing a 38mm carb back to 24mm and try it out on my new FZR/GP125.

The benefit of sleeveing a carb back is that it moves the constricted 24mm high velocity area away from the metering section. As the metering section is very disruptive to air flow it makes sense to have the metering section as large as practical.

Also having the 24mm part after the metering section helps with fuel atomization. As air/fuel mixture passes through the high velocity area the fuel droplets literally explode as their vapor pressure becomes much greater than the surrounding region of low pressure in the 24mm venture.

Can a 38-24 combo work as a high flow good atomizing carb or will the signal strength at the metering jet be to low to work????? who knows, but we will find out in due course...........

Bets anyone??????

[TZ350]

On the GP the 38-24 was just physically to big to be usable before, and try out before as it stuck out the side way to far for the skinny GP frame but looks like it will be OK with the wider FZR chassis and there will certainly be enough room on the front of the plenum for it.

[Bert]

Can a 38-24 combo work as a high flow good atomizing carb or will the signal strength at the metering jet be to low to work????? who knows, but we will find out in due course...........

Bets anyone??????

Looks good but you might be right about the metering; one thought, can you off set the vortex closer to the base of the carb. This might help sensitivity at low to mid range. as it stands now i can't see why it wouldn't work fine wide open, but it might lean out <half open..

injection could be in order!:yes:
http://www.smcomp.com/~smurph/RZ-EFI/index.html

people were talking about water cooling and pumping a while back, maybe this could provide a solution (cheap as chips):
http://xminimoto.co.nz/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10_34&products_id=48

[bucketracer]

The rules quite clearly set an overall capacity limit, if you have two motors regardless of whether one is driving a supercharger or not you will be over it, unless of course both motors total less than 100cc

Ok...... so does this electric supercharger meet the rules then.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Parts-for-sale/Performance/photos/a-311284689/p-135307534.htm


They do not say the supercharger has to be driven by the motorcycles own motor, what if it was driven by a rubber band or an electric motor or a turbo charger fired by LPG, or an external heat engine like a sterling engine or from a big bottle of compressed air or nitrous oxide, or off the rear wheel or by the rider peddling a bicycle crank or blown with an old forge bellows operated by the rider vigorously clenching their butt cheeks together. There are so many possibilities.
An internal heat engine, what makes that different to the other ways of spinning the supercharger?

Nothing in the rules says you can't take another engine along for the ride.......electric engine.......or......heat engine.........for driving the supercharger, whats the difference.......so long as there is only 99cc of 4-stroke driving the bike.

[Kickaha]

......so long as there is only 99cc of 4-stroke driving the bike.


Doesn't matter if the supercharger is electric or run off a hamster wheel

So long as there is 99cc total , the capacity limits make no mention of what is driving the bike just an overall cc limit for the machine

[Henk]

I'd say that on a 100 that would be legal. Probably completely useless, but legal.

[Kickaha]

Probably completely useless, but legal.

I don't think there's any probably about it:shifty:

[bucketracer]

I don't think there's any probably about it:shifty:

Probably right, have you seen the current draw????? if it wasn't useless it soon would be, a battery wouldn't last long.

[Henk]

Personaly I think team ESE should try one. Has to be safer than a plenum with half a liter of unleaded sloshing around in it.

[SS90]

I don't think there's any probably about it:shifty:

Warwick, don't be such a Ney sayer...... The chromed plastic body would add PS on it's own.

Fark, I was hoping that thing would find it's way onto a plenum.

[SS90]

Probably right, have you seen the current draw????? if it wasn't useless it soon would be, a battery wouldn't last long.

No No Bucketracer, you could wire a voltage regulator in.... forget about the battery, and just run it form the AC generator.

It's way out of my experience, but if anyone can do it, team ESE can!:scooter:

You can have the "magic vacuum cleaner", and the "definitely not gay Chrome hairdryer" :sunny:

[SS90]

Personaly I think team ESE should try one. Has to be safer than a plenum with half a liter of unleaded sloshing around in it.

Or both together!

The electric supercharger could force the unused fuel that is sitting in the plenum into the crankcase!

What could possibly go wrong?

[Kickaha]

Has to be safer than a plenum with half a liter of unleaded sloshing around in it.

Bu the explosion won't be anywhere near as spectacular

[TZ350]

This is a copper squish band, not a brass det ring. Hard brass is used in det rings as its not easily eroded away, copper is to soft for a det ring.

Pic-02 a 95 TZ250 copper squish band head, its the first time I have seen a picture of one, interesting that Yamaha used this idea in their race bikes...............

OK, so now we know we didn't think of it first, but its satisfying to see that we came up with our own one by ourselves Pic-01.

With the copper squish area and alloy chamber it looks much like the Yamaha factory race head...........so its true, great minds do think alike..........:)

I have no idea how long they used it, but even production racers are subject to economics I guess and it is probably more useful in an air cooled engine anyway .............

[gatch]

Why the copper on the squish band area ? Don't you want to keep the heat IN the cylinder ?

[TZ350]

Why the copper on the squish band area ? Don't you want to keep the heat IN the cylinder ?

That's true, you do want to keep the heat in the combusted gas so its increased pressure pushes the piston down. Any loss of heat from the gas reduces the push on the piston.

A cool squish band reduces the chance of end gas detonation and by its close proximity to the piston helps cool that too.

But once any heat energy reaches the combustion chamber shell either by radiation or conduction then it has to be removed by the cooling system ASAP.

A reflective material like polished aluminum reflects radiated heat back into the chamber. Some chambers are designed in a way that increases the boundary layer as another way of keeping more heat in the combusted gas, the boundary layer acts like a blanket and insulates the combustion chamber wall from the hot combustion gas.

But detonation disturbs the boundary layer and allows greater conduction from the hot gas to the combustion chamber wall and that's the reason why engines overheat when there is continuous detonation happening.

[SS90]

This is a copper squish band, not a brass det ring.

Pic-02 a 95 TZ250 copper squish band head, its the first time I have seen a picture of one, interesting that Yamaha used this idea in their race bikes...............

OK, so now we know we didn't think of it first, but its satisfying to see that we came up with our own one by ourselves Pic-01.

With the copper squish area and alloy chamber it looks much like the Yamaha factory race head...........so its true, great minds do think alike..........:)

I have no idea how long they used it, but even production racers are subject to economics I guess and it is probably more useful in an air cooled engine anyway .............

Any information on this head.... was it made by Yamaha?

I have never heard of, nor seen one before.

Is there any information to show that it was designed not simply as a det ring?

[Kickaha]

Any information on this head.... was it made by Yamaha?

I have never heard of, nor seen one before.

Is there any information to show that it was designed not simply as a det ring?

It's factory Yamaha, that TZ motor I had in the Superkart had them, the chamber was a different shape to the earlier TZ heads and I was told it was an "unleaded head"

[gatch]

That's true, you do want to keep the heat in the combusted gas so its increased pressure pushes the piston down. Any loss of heat from the gas reduces the push on the piston.

A cool squish band reduces the chance of end gas detonation and by its close proximity to the piston helps cool that too.

But once any heat energy reaches the combustion chamber shell either by radiation or conduction then it has to be removed by the cooling system ASAP.

A reflective material like polished aluminum reflects radiated heat back into the chamber. Some chambers are designed in a way that increases the boundary layer as another way of keeping more heat in the combusted gas, the boundary layer acts like a blanket and insulates the combustion chamber wall from the hot combustion gas.

But detonation disturbs the boundary layer and allows greater conduction from the hot gas to the combustion chamber wall and that's the reason why engines overheat when there is continuous detonation happening.

I understand detonation etc.

Maybe its just me not knowing the science, but it seems odd you would want to conduct heat into the head. Why not use as you say, polished ally ? Or does that copper get polished up ?

[SS90]

It's factory Yamaha, that TZ motor I had in the Superkart had them, the chamber was a different shape to the earlier TZ heads and I was told it was an "unleaded head"

That might be correct.....

I remember my 95 125 came with an unleaded head that looked similar shape (made ok power on av gas)

a quick internerd search, and I found this for a 3xv TZ unleaded head.

[Kickaha]

and I found this for a 3xv TZ unleaded head.

Uneducated peasant, there is no such thing as a 3XV TZ, the TZ V twins were all designated 4DP

Although the cases were virtually the same and all the bits interchanged, there was at least one road legal 3XV TZR250 built with 4DP TZ250 top end bits, etc bolted on

The heads are probably from 1997

[SS90]

Uneducated peasant, there is no such thing as a 3XV TZ, the TZ V twins were all designated 4DP

Although the cases were virtually the same and all the bits interchanged, there was at least one road legal 3XV TZR250 built with 4DP TZ250 top end bits, etc bolted on

The heads are probably from 1997

3XV with 4DP top end, wasn't that ex Ricky Porter now Rod Hawes' bike?

That definitely has TZR road cases.

You know I am confused easy........ I was thinking of your age in roman numerals.

[Buckets4Me]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Parts-for-sale/Other/auction-311346415.htm

and I thought Team E.S.E had enough stuff lying around

[bucketracer]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Parts-for-sale/Other/auction-311346415.htm

and I thought Team E.S.E had enough stuff lying around

There has to be something useful or just fun to have in that lot.............

[gatch]

There has to be something useful or just fun to have in that lot.............

What rim width is ideal for slicks ?

I don't know what the rim widths on my spada are, but the stock tire sizes are 100/80-17 front and 140/70-17 rear, which would probably make it too wide for 125 slicks yes ?

[TZ350]

What rim width is ideal for slicks ?

I don't know what the rim widths on my spada are, but the stock tire sizes are 100/80-17 front and 140/70-17 rear, which would probably make it too wide for 125 slicks yes ?

We run secondhand GP125 slicks on our buckets, we use 2.5x17"F and 3.5x17R rims, these are the recommended sizes by Dunlop. Rims for slicks seem to be wider than for road tires, possibly because of the slicks lower profile. A lot of the FXR150 boys run narrower rims OK with slicks and on my 50 I run 2.15F and 2.5R rims, and both wheels are shod with front slicks from a GP125.

[gatch]

We run secondhand GP125 slicks on our buckets, we use 2.5x17"F and 3.5x17R rims, these are the recommended sizes by Dunlop. Rims for slicks seem to be wider than for road tires, possibly because of the slicks lower profile. A lot of the FXR150 boys run narrower rims OK with slicks and on my 50 I run 2.15F and 2.5R rims, and both wheels are shod with front slicks from a GP125.

Maybe I could get away with just putting slicks on my spada rims then ? Some wire wheels would be neat though, heaps lighter as has been demonstrated..

[TZ350]

Maybe I could get away with just putting slicks on my spada rims then ? .......

Maybe, what widths are they? if they are mags their sizes should be cast into them somewhere, possibly on one of the spokes.....

[gatch]

I'm not sure, none of my manuals have the rim size in. The bike is at work at the mo so I can't tell..

[Buddha#81]

I'm not sure, none of my manuals have the rim size in. The bike is at work at the mo so I can't tell..

Ya may be in the poo if its the same as this..........

Front tyre dimensions: 110/80-17
Rear tyre dimensions: 140/70-17

........dont know of any slick in this size let alone any good rubber (radials).

[gatch]

Ya may be in the poo if its the same as this..........

Front tyre dimensions: 110/80-17
Rear tyre dimensions: 140/70-17

........dont know of any slick in this size let alone any good rubber (radials).

Ye, except the stock front is a 100, not a 110. I don't really care if slicks aren't those size, just want to know if a 120 rear will work on the same rim..

[F5 Dave]

Find out what the rim sizes are. will be on the rims. Any more than 2.5 on the front & that will be a problem, chances are it is 2.5. The rear if it takes a 140 will be 4" I guess. will a 120 'work' on it? Well it will fit. It might even seal. But no it won't 'work'.

[TZ350]

Ye, except the stock front is a 100, not a 110. I don't really care if slicks aren't those size, just want to know if a 120 rear will work on the same rim..

You really must find out the rim widths you have, comparing road tyre sizes with slick tyre sizes does not mean very much as the size of the tyre (say 110-80-17) is the width across the tread, profile height and diameter of the rim its to go on and does not tell you anything very much about the width of rim the manufacturer intended their tyre to be mounted on.

A "120-80-17" tyre means 120mm across the tread, the height of the tyre is 80% of the width and 17 means 17" rim diameter. There is nothing in there about rim width, you have to go to the manufacturer to find out what rim width they recommend for their tyre.

A tall 120 road tyre will usually be mounted on a narrower rim than a low profile 120 racing slick.

GP125 slicks typically use 2.5F and 3.5R rim widths, you need to find out what rim widths you actually have.

Rim widths are measured in decimal inches and the place to measure them is down in between the flanges, inside to inside, not outside to outside.

If you have to get in there and measure them yourself, remember 2.5" is a decimal inch measurement and 2-1/2" is a fractional inch measurement, there is plenty of info and conversion charts on the net for converting between decimal and fractional inches.

A link to Dunlops racing tyre rim guide:- http://www.dunlopracing.com/fitment.pdf

KR149 and KR133 are Dunlops GP125 racing tyres, they are listed at the top of the chart.

[TZ350]

Now that NedKelly is using a total loss battery powered programmable CDI ignition and only needs the trigger coil from the original ignition, we can use the old high voltage coil in the magneto to generate power to recharge his battery. In the picture is a rewound high voltage coil and the Pit Bike rectifier/regulator we are going to use.

Thomas is using a light bulb to simulate the current draw he wants for charging the battery and running an electric water pump. There has to be something like a light bulb drawing current from the generator before you can get a true voltage reading of the generators output. A 12Volt 26/5W tail light bulb with both filaments wired in parallel draws 2.2Amps.

Bucketracer wound a few coils, 400 turns of 0.6 wire gave 28v when it was tried on the bike and 150 turns (all he could get on the bobbin) of 1.0 wire gave 14v ac or 10v DC. The right hand volt meter shows the ac voltage from the generator going into the rectifier/regulator and the other the dc voltage output to the light bulb.

Unfortunately 1.0mm wire is too thick to get any more turns onto the bobbin and 0.6 is too light to carry the current needed, so off to the shop Monday for some 0.8 wire to make another coil with about 200 turns.

The Pit Bike rectifier/regulator cost $15 of Trademe, the Red wire is battery positive, Green is Earth, Violet and Pink are Generator AC. A little bit on AC/DC http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/powersup.htm

It might take a few attempts but by a bit of trial and error we will find the right number of turns for 13-14v dc for charging the battery at 6-11,000 rpm.

[TZ350]

.

An interesting collection of links….. http://31k-gr.blogspot.com/2009/02/blog-post_18.html

[TZ350]

.

Turbocharged 2-Strokes......I have often wondered if this could be done with a bike motor....now we know.......its great what you can find out about on the net.............

[SS90]

Sorry Teezee, but this is nothing new...

Small English article
http://www.motorbase.com/auctionlot/by-id/1706703174/

A short youtube video of the " DKW ladepumpe Singendsäge" ("super charged singing saw")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SatfpS82xRA&feature=related

The bike is circa 1934 I think (pre roots blower)

They (DKW) supercharged a few different models, but finding images of the roots style super chargers is difficult.

A good (English) book to read is "Mick Walkers German racing motorcycles".

[TZ350]

Sorry Teezee, but this is nothing new.......


True, supercharging is not new....but which old 2-stroke motorcycle you are referring to was turbo charged?..........turbo charging was the point.......

[SS90]

I guess I got a bit distracted.

As far as I know, MZ was the leader in Turbo charged strokers, and from memory it was 1956?, not 100% certain on that, next time I go to Zwickau I will find out.

As far as modern day stuff goes, the 1/4 mile guys seem to have it down to a fine art (I think Kawasaki triple based engines is the go)

There is plenty of information on 2 stroke Turbo's and superchargers, but I personally don't know of any in English.

I have seen dozens of Turbo Vespa's, (all I have seen are the big frame 210cc or more) there is step by step information you can follow to make your own.

[TZ350]

I guess I got a bit distracted.

As far as I know, MZ was the leader in Turbo charged strokers, and from memory it was 1956?.......

Between the wars MZ had a racing 2-stroke that was supercharged by a top hat piston arrangement, ......typically it was banned for being to clever........

A "Turbo Charged" MZ 2-stroke motorcycle in the 50's, I don't think so, but if there was one I would like to know more..........

[TZ350]

.

Another clever engine, the Honda 4 cylinder V8..........

Designed to increase the valve area by getting around the rules limiting race engines to 4 cylinders, the engineers must have been bucket racers in a former life.

[SS90]

Between the wars MZ had a racing 2-stroke that was supercharged by a top hat piston arrangement, ......typically it was banned for being to clever........

A "Turbo Charged" MZ 2-stroke motorcycle in the 50's, I don't think so, but if there was one I would like to know more..........

In 1965 Kreidler had a 50cc TURBO CHARGED 2 stroke that took the world 50cc world speed record 225km/h

http://www.myvideo.at/watch/3468062/Kreidler_Weltrekord_1965_50ccm_Kompressor

They also made a gp racer too
http://www.kreidler-museum.de/kreidler-werksmuseum.htm

They also had super charged models being developed at the same time, and I think one or two had world records.

I assure you, plenty of other European factories where developing Turbo 2 strokes at the same time, as far back as the early 50's.

Also
http://www.kreidler-archiv.de/index.htm

No real information available on the specifics...... but there is plenty of information on turbo Vespa's......:scooter::scooter::scooter:

AUDI (who own NSU among others have 2 (working) examples of turbo NSU 2 strokes from the 50's, as well as plenty of other bits and bobs.

[TZ350]

In 1965 Kreidler had a 50cc TURBO CHARGED 2 stroke that took the world 50cc world speed record 225km/h

http://www.myvideo.at/watch/3468062/Kreidler_Weltrekord_1965_50ccm_Kompressor

They also made a gp racer too
http://www.kreidler-museum.de/kreidler-werksmuseum.htm

I don’t see a turbocharger

Translated for me by an automated German English translator.

Kompressor = Compressor
Rennmotorrad = Racing motorcycle
für Weltrekordfahrten = for world record journeys
Anscheid, van Dongen = Anscheid, station-wagon Dongen

So it’s a supercharged racing motorcycle for a world record attempt.

Still not a turbocharged 2-stroke, take a good look at the picture.

[TZ350]

.

Ask any Boy Racer and he will be able to tell you what a turbocharger is.

And FYI centrifugal pumps are something different and are as old as the hills. The principal is most commonly seen about the place being used in water pumps. A centrifugal pump has an impeller and usually a scroll housing.

To give you an idea, examples of centrifugal air pumps that I can quickly think of from that era are vacuum cleaners, old hand cranked forge blowers, ventilation blowers, scavenging blowers on industrial and marine 2-stroke engines.

The centrifugal air pump can be driven directly by an internal combustion engine through a step-up gear train, or by an electric motor or even by a steam turbine. There must be many ways to drive a centrifugal pump.

We have the impeller from one at work that is spun at 30,000 rpm by a large electric motor through a step-up gearbox. The bearings are very fussy about the quality of their oil and fail quickly if the impeller is slightly out of balance or someone has not topped it up with the correct lubricant, the impeller looks like a turbo charger impeller.

Air Pumps are blowers or compressors depending on their use, blowers for ventilation and compressors for pressure.

The Roots mine ventilation blower (Roots Blower) became a compressor (supercharger) when some clever bloke like Thomas bolted one onto an internal combustion engine.

And centrifugal air compressors were used on WW2 fighter aircraft as superchargers and that might be the type of supercharger (Kompressor) used on the kreidler.

A turbocharger that would be recognized by a boy racer is a centrifugal air compressor driven by an exhaust gas turbine.

There were two developments that allowed the manufacture of high revving 100,000 150,000 + rpm exhaust gas turbine driven centrifugal air pumps (turbochargers) on a commercial scale. One was new quality steel that could withstand the temperatures of the exhaust for the turbine and the other was the concept of a floating bush for a main bearing that rides on a cushion of oil to damp out the small but destructive vibrations from the rotating assembly.

I don’t think these two important developments that made turbochargers possible were known in the 50’s and 60’s, do you.

Some pictures like I have posted where you can see the exhaust pipe entering the turbine or translated text that show the Kompressor is a centrifugal air pump driven by an exhaust gas turbine and you have a turbocharged 2-stroke motorcycle otherwise its just another 2-stroke with a Kompressor.


In 1965 Kreidler had a 50cc TURBO CHARGED 2 stroke...........

I was well aware of the supercharged racing DKW, the supercharged Kriedlers are new and interesting but I can't see a Kriedler with a turbocharger in your post.

Driving the air pump impeller by an exhaust gas turbine connected to the exhaust pipe ( a turbocharger) was the point of my post.

Did Kriedler or any of the others you claim were "turbocharged" have one of those arrangements in the 50's or 60's?

Scanned articles or pictures from a book would be interesting................PDF's can be uploaded to KiwiBiker

Or could you have confused the high speed impeller of a centrifugal Kompressor with a turbine........ impellers drive.....turbines are driven.......

[SS90]

Ever seen a Mercedes with a Kompressor badge on the boot?

I assure you Turbo charged 2 strokes have been around since the 50's..... Just because you cannot find one on google does not mean they did not exist.

[SS90]

Anscheid, van Dongen = Anscheid, station-wagon Dongen



picture.

That's some ones name.... Anschied translates as "starring" or "featuring" and Van Dongen was the sir name of the Dutch rider........

You need a better translating program.

The context was " Featuring Van Dongen"

Not "station wagon dongen"

The Internet is not always right Teezee.....

[SS90]

Here Is a thought..... If no one was doing it nil recently..... What technology has changed to make it possible that was not available say .......50 years ago?

Don't think I am trying to discourage you, quite the opposite, but as I said a year ago, for decades highly specialized experts have spend thousands of hours working their entire careers on something most people have as a hobby, and they had resources that even in today's world are enviable.

Perhaps I could refer you to some Turbo Vespa links?????

I will ask around if anyone I know has knowledge of some English language sites that are worth a look..... Although I am willing to bet they are all American ones (yawn).

You never know, you may learn something from "Motto Scotters" (sic).....

[TZ350]

I assure you Turbo charged 2 strokes have been around since the 50's..... Just because you cannot find one on google does not mean they did not exist.

A picture of one like I posted would be good, got any good books you could scan.....

[TZ350]

Here Is a thought..... If no one was doing it nil recently..... What technology has changed to make it possible that was not available say .......50 years ago?.

You should read my post, its explained there.............

[TZ350]

You need a better translating program.......

True but it was free and did the business.........


The Internet is not always right Teezee.....

That's also true......as there is at least one out there that talks with more enthusiasm than knowledge...........


I assure you Turbo charged 2 strokes have been around since the 50's..... Just because you cannot find one on google does not mean they did not exist.

and I am interested.......... can you back your claim of turbocharged 2-strokes from the 50's 60's up? with a picture or two from one of your books or a friends library maybe.......

I am keen to see a picture of an early 2-stroke with an air pump impeller driven by an exhaust gas turbine connected directly to the exhaust pipe, to wit, a turbocharger.

[TZ350]

Don't think I am trying to discourage you......

No, never for a moment thought you might be trying to discourage me............:D.......but this thread does seem to go more smoothly when we ignore you as a time waster.

I have known about the mechanically driven supercharger on the racing DKW for as long as I can remember and have recently been interested in whether a 2-stroke could be supercharged with a proper turbocharger, now I believe it can and was the whole point of my original post.

OK you have emphatically claimed turbocharged 2-stroke motorcycles are nothing new, so now, show us a picture of an early 2-stroke with a centrifugal air pump who's impeller is driven by an exhaust gas turbine connected directly to the exhaust pipe, to wit, a turbocharger and existed in the 50's 60's like you say they did.........or could you have been overexcited and blowing hot air yourself............

There are people who read this thread in the hope of learning something useful and I write it for the same reason, I learn as I go along.

Its only in the interests of robust debate, but I expect we are all interested to see if you can back up your claim that's been expressed so stridently or if we should just take your assurances and whatever else you have said about tuning in general with just a little pinch of salt..........:yes:

[TZ350]

Ever seen a Mercedes with a Kompressor badge on the boot? I assure you Turbo charged 2 strokes have been around since the 50's.....

Was it some advertising copy writer from the make it look good department that put the Kompressor badge on the boot?

Although the Merc is turbocharged I suspect that Kompressor or compressor is just a generic German term for supercharger, just like people sometimes use blower for supercharger and that does not tell you anything about what sort of supercharger, roots, screw, vane or turbo to name a few, is being referred too.

If Abgasturbolader is German for exhaust gas turbocharger then unlike the Merc the Kompressor 2-strokes from the 50’s 60’s you talk about are not necessarily turbocharged, they could be supercharged in any manner of other ways. Show me where Kompressor definativly means turbocharged in German, like Turbocharged means turbocharger in English.

I am very interested in this and am looking forward to some more info, and photos………..no more hiding behind smoke and mirrors please.

Anyway, whatever the outcome of how it was done, those supercharged Kriedlers are interesting, I hadn't seen them before.

And the clip of the Kompressor 50 at speed that you posted sounds very mean. http://www.myvideo.at/watch/3468062/Kreidler_Weltrekord_1965_50ccm_Kompressor once again I am impressed by the good quality and interesting stuff that can be found on the net.........thank you......:)

[SS90]

Meh, just put me back on your ignore list Teezee.

Plenty of others are happy with my input.

You fail to recognise that way way way before the Internet was even a word, people in NZ where making some really cool (fast) buckets on no budget and good old fashioned books and Experience.

I assure you faster buckets have been built that yours 20 years ago.

You are actually relatively new to buckets, and you often come of as condescending when presenting items you have simply googled and read, not actually experienced.

[gatch]

While it's quite possibly true there were faster buckets, why is this relevant ?

Are you just being a dick because you can't evidence your claims ?

Dunno about anyone else but I like reading the links posted up in here, if you had some useful links to post I'd probably read them too..

[Bert]

not that old but:
turbo Arpilia rs50
http://buddfab.net/buddfabhomepage.html

crazy French scooter people:
http://magazine.maxiscoot.com/Francais/Atelier/Projects/Turbocompresseur/

I'd suggest using Google translator works fine for most webpages and forums (including japan):
http://translate.google.com

I do have some strange recall of my old man talking about crazy 50cc gp bikes out of the eastern block running turbo like systems in the old days (and compressors/superchargers). looking at pictures it wouldn't be beyond a home engineer. would this be against the rules on a 100cc twostroke?? all one would need is a electronic mapped "powerjet" (read injector) to sort out the rather likely lean running at high revs.

I've just found this forum and have been reading this thread, might be some info in here??
http://forums.autosport.com/lofiversion/index.php/t98711-50.html

heres a link to the 50cc land speed records
www.elsberg-tuning.dk/recordbikes.html (note it will take over EI8? use mozilla)

but here is the smallest turbo i could find (five minutes of google time):
http://www.mjmturbos.com/images/SMALLEST.jpg

[TZ350]

.

Thanks Bert, very interesting stuff http://forums.autosport.com/lofiversion/index.php/t98711-700.html and thanks for the translator, it confirmed what I thought.

[TZ350]

While it's quite possibly true there were faster buckets, why is this relevant ? Are you just being a dick because you can't evidence your claims ? Dunno about anyone else but I like reading the links posted up in here, if you had some useful links to post I'd probably read them too..

Thanks Gatch for your interest in the posts. Team ESE are well aware that there has been a whole generation of fast buckets before, but that was then and this is now and we are enjoying finding out how to do it too. With 21 RWHP for my 125 and 22.5 for Chambers 100, I think we are getting there. We know it takes more than just hp to make a successful bucket and I think we are getting to grips with that too.

Yes I think its important to share the info around and be able to backup ones claims, I got the full bullshit treatment today by someone who should have known better, I don't think we will be seeing any confirmation of SS's claims any time soon, but you get that with the talkers that just want to be noticed.

Whatever, those old supercharged Kriedlers, and other racing 50's, great bikes, just love em..... http://forums.autosport.com/lofiversion/index.php/t98711-700.html

[SS90]

Thanks Gatch for your interest in the posts. Team ESE are well aware that there has been a whole generation of fast buckets before, but that was then and this is now and we are enjoying finding out how to do it too. With 21 RWHP for my 125 and 22.5 for Chambers 100, I think we are getting there. We know it takes more than just hp to make a successful bucket and I think we are getting to grips with that too.

Yes I think its important to share the info around and be able to backup ones claims, I got the full bullshit treatment today by someone who should have known better, I don't think we will be seeing any confirmation of SS's claims any time soon, but you get that with the talkers that just want to be noticed.

Whatever, those old supercharged Kriedlers, and other racing 50's, great bikes, just love em..... http://forums.autosport.com/lofiversion/index.php/t98711-700.html


Just put me on you ignore list Teezee, if you can't believe that everything you are only just learning now has been tried decades before you are very very mistaken.

Hows the Plenum.... still in the wardrobe with your Karate suit and acoustic guitar?

[bucketracer]

I assure you faster buckets have been built than yours 20 years ago.

Yes, we know that's true, but its a pretty fair bet that its not one of yours........


Hows the Plenum.... still in the wardrobe with your Karate suit and acoustic guitar?

Now that's just plain childish...........

P.S. SS90 revenge red rep is immature too...........
OK, so you haven't learn't to contribute in a positive way yet, back to the naughty corner you go..........:done:.....done like a dogs dinner...

[speedpro]

While investigating small turbos a while back I found that Yanmar made a small diesel generator with a turbo. Can't remember the details and i ended up with the little IHI off a Suzuki Cappuccino which is not too much bigger I think.
Holden supercharged 3.8L v6s used a belt driven centrifugal supercharger. The compressor looks like a turbo compressor and the "gears" to increase the shaft speed have no teeth but rely on the properties of the oil to provide traction. As it gets jammed between the rotors it becomes grippy. Can't remember the correct technical term for the property.

[gatch]

The compressor looks like a turbo compressor and the "gears" to increase the shaft speed have no teeth but rely on the properties of the oil to provide traction. As it gets jammed between the rotors it becomes grippy. Can't remember the correct technical term for the property.

Elastohydrodynamic.

I remember reading about a "gearless gearbox" set up for mountain bikers. Essentially 2 ball bearings with a pin through the centers of them, whos angle can be altered to effectively change the "gear ratio" across them. This assembly used something similar to provide grip between the otherwise smooth bearing surfaces. If it is the same stuff, it is known simply enough as traction fluid.

http://www.fallbrooktech.com/06_tf_FAQ.asp

The first link I came across in a google search..

[bucketracer]

Another clever engine, the Honda 4 cylinder V8..........

Designed to increase the valve area by getting around the rules limiting race engines to 4 cylinders, the engineers must have been bucket racers in a former life.

Some more about the Honda four cylinder V8........ the full story can be read here:- http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1979pistonengine/

[F5 Dave]

Why pollute this thread with that pile of poo? Typical Honda, throw a bunch of money at a weak technology (4 strokes) to try & redress the balance. Not even with the ridiculously talented Freddie Spencer could it beat the 2 strokes.

Honda went away to sulk & conceded defeat while ironically rushing through a 2 stroke that spanked the world. They then decided that if they couldn't beat the 2 strokes in the 500 class they would have to cheat. & the best cheat is to pressure the rule makers to allow them double the capacity. Both in GP & MX.

Fuck em I say.

[bucketracer]

Why pollute this thread with that pile of poo?
Fuck em I say.

I know how you feel........ but it is a good example of thinking outside the box... a very Bucket Racer thing to do.

[bucketracer]

.

Found this at work this morning, the centrifugal air pump impeller (also known as "radial") that TeeZee was talking about.

This one was spun by a very large electric motor for an air bubbling system at a water treatment plant, (high flow and relatively low pressure, makes it a blower).

It could just as easily have been spun by a Spitfire aircraft engine and used as a supercharger, (relatively low flow and high pressure, makes it a compressor).

Hadn't thought about it much before, but one of these would then become a turbocharger if it was spun by an exhaust gas turbine..........

This type of impellor could be used as a "Blower" or "Compressor" or even as a "Turbochargers" compressor, depending on how its setup.

Its having the exhaust gas turbine on the driving end to spin it, that defines a centrifugal air pump as a turbocharger, not the fact it has a centrifugal impeller.

[TZ350]

Its having the exhaust gas turbine on the driving end to spin it, that defines a centrifugal air pump as a turbocharger, not the fact it has a centrifugal impeller.

Well there it is.......... Thanks Bucket

[bucketracer]

One of Chambers projects, a supercharger for his flathead V8, he is a hot rodder from way back.

A Roots type blower converted for use as a "Kompressor". If we had one small enough we could try supercharging a 2-stroke with it.

Must talk to Speedpro about a supercharger, he has one or two, it would be interesting to see if we could supercharge a 2-stroke with a Roots style Kompressor or a small Turbocharger ourselves.......

[Buckets4Me]

217286 why is Thomas Laughing


217285 and whats this guy got to say about it all

[speedpro]

Seeing that Wade blower reminds me of a visit to Gasworks Park in Seattle. There was a "HUGE" roots type blower there. It was about 10' high. You could climb on it up this ladder and stand on it. I figure if my mates blower on his car is a 14/71 then this thing must have been about a 100,000/71. It wasn't high helix though

[Henk]

Uninformed question time. Will a blower on a two stroke make the chamber largely redundant?

[gatch]

Seeing that Wade blower reminds me of a visit to Gasworks Park in Seattle. There was a "HUGE" roots type blower there. It was about 10' high. You could climb on it up this ladder and stand on it. I figure if my mates blower on his car is a 14/71 then this thing must have been about a 100,000/71. It wasn't high helix though

What do the numbers 14/71 refer to ? You see it all the time, 6/71, 8/71 etc.

What the deuce does it mean !!

[Buckets4Me]

What do the numbers 14/71 refer to ? You see it all the time, 6/71, 8/71 etc.

What the deuce does it mean !!

something to do with the air fow bigger number larger air flow

was told ?? dont know how right it was
but 6/71 was for a 6ltr engine
and 8/71 8ltr engine
so a 14/71 was for a 14ltr truck engine ?

[TZ350]

Uninformed question time. Will a blower on a two stroke make the chamber largely redundant?

No.......The way I see it, all the the chambers features are still important........its just every thing happens at a higher ambient air pressure........although there probably needs to be some adjustment to the chambers design..........it's interesting, we might look into it some more one day with the view of building one.

Instead of the normal atmospheric 14psi, with say 10psi turbo boost the ambient air pressure the motor sees is now 24psi and the engine thinks its died and gone to heaven.

These turbo strokers and the Kriedler that someone mistakenly thought was turbocharged but is actually supercharged some other way, they all have chambers.......

[gatch]

No.......The way I see it, all the the chambers features are still important........its just every thing happens at a higher ambient air pressure........although there probably needs to be some adjustment to the chambers design..........it's interesting, we might look into it some more one day.

Instead of the normal atmospheric 14psi, with say 10psi turbo boost the ambient air pressure the motor sees is now 24psi and the engine thinks its died and gone to heaven.

See the size of the pipe on that bike ! It's like a washing machine drum !!

[TZ350]

See the size of the pipe on that bike ! It's like a washing machine drum !!

Do you see that it is also a two into one? the normally aspirated two in one's that I have heard made the strangest sound..........

[TZ350]

Its having the exhaust gas turbine on the driving end to spin it, that defines a centrifugal air pump as a turbocharger, not the fact it has a centrifugal impeller.

Picture one is an Abgasturbolader (German for exhaust gas turbocharger), you can clearly see the centrifugal (or radial) compressor impeller on the left and the exhaust gas turbine on the right. Which is what defines this Kompressor as a turbocharger.

Earlier I was quite surprised to have someone who never seems to miss an opportunity to let me know how knowledgeable and experienced they are, offer me the argument that a turbocharged Mercedes which has a Kompressor badge on the boot was some kind of proof that a motorcycle also labeled Kompressor would have to be turbocharged too.

Kompressor only means supercharged, were they stupid, desperate or only hoping I was stupider than them, fat chance.

Picture two is a schematic of how the turbocharger works supercharging the motor.

Picture three is not a turbocharger, it is a centrifugal (or radial) compressor used as a supercharger and is usually driven directly by the motor.

[sonic_v]

The mercedes with the kompressor badge use a roots type supercharger manufactured by eaton.

http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/ProductsServices/PerformanceProducts/Products/Superchargers/M45/

The m45 supercharger is used on the i4 engines of less than 2.3 litre capacity. This same supercharger was used for a while on the BMW made mini coopers but they now use a turbo. This particular supercharger can be found very cheaply on ebay .

[Brian d marge]

Some more about the Honda four cylinder V8........ the full story can be read here:- http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1979pistonengine/

I was at Honda back in those days , remember that coming out , Rode one many years later here in Japan , had ring issues and were F%&&7 expensive

Nice lead balloon

Stephen

[TZ350]

Ever seen a Mercedes with a Kompressor badge on the boot?

I assure you Turbo charged…………...


The mercedes with the kompressor badge use a roots type supercharger manufactured by eaton.

http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/ProductsServices/PerformanceProducts/Products/Superchargers/M45/

The m45 supercharger is used on the i4 engines of less than 2.3 litre capacity. This same supercharger was used for a while on the BMW made mini coopers but they now use a turbo. This particular supercharger can be found very cheaply on ebay .

To be fair to him, I did try to research it on the net at the time and turned up a turboed Merc, but I guess its true then, as he says, "the net is not always right".

So my friend was wide of the mark.....……..figures.

[Yow Ling]

What do the numbers 14/71 refer to ? You see it all the time, 6/71, 8/71 etc.

What the deuce does it mean !!

4/71 is a detroit diesel with 4 71 cubic inch cylinders
6/71 has 6 71 cu inch cyls
6v53 is a V6 with 53 cu inch clys

the also make 1/71 2/71 3/71 4/53 8/71 16/71 amd also a range of 90 something cylinders

engines marked with a T at the end are turbocharged eg 4/53T

[SS90]

Please continue Teezee.........

I am just happy that you did not claim poor old Thomas "knew all this already."

And if you say that "no one had ever turbo'd a two stroke before the 90's" often enough, you will eventually believe it yourself.

There is a guy not 30 kilometers from me who has a turbo 2 stroke single that he made in " the mid 70's"

I am not sure how it went, or if it goes now.

I am not trying to stop you Teezee, quite the opposite actually, many Bucket racers in NZ have talked about it (has anyone done it???? I don't know, someone must know), but I have never seen one in NZ...... Seen plenty in Europe though, ranging from 210cc Vespa's and 50cc "twist and go scooters" to classic works racers up to modified Aprilia RS250's and so on.

I would go so far to suggest that pretty much every Factory in Europe had at least a prototype at some stage, and the only reason that they didn't continue was that forced induction was banned.

As an aside, there is a good chance by my reckoning that your Plenum could work ( with out a reed valve) simply by reducing the volume of the Plenum, as I have theorised before, the problem seems to be a weakened signal at the main jet/slide needle orifice..... Just like when you "over carb" an engine.

I was hoping you could at least prove the merit of the Plenum. Just getting it to carburate correctly would be a start, and simply increase the plenum volume gradually.

[bucketracer]

And if you say that "no one had ever turbo'd a two stroke before the 90's" often enough, you will eventually believe it yourself.


Like the magical turbo Kriedler you claim existed in the 50's but you can't back up.

I bet you can't show where TeeZee said "no one had ever turbo'd a two stroke before the 90's".


A "Turbo Charged" MZ 2-stroke motorcycle in the 50's, I don't think so, but if there was one I would like to know more..........

Isn't that what he actuall said........... and later explained way he thought so.

I am sure he would be happy, even excited to know there were, if they existed like you say there must be some pics.....post one or two up....

And he has posted a few pictures of what a Abgasturbolader (exhaust gas turbocharger) actually looks like, so you might know what your looking for.

And TeeZee is right about another thing, engaging with you realy is a time waster........ fun though...

[SS90]

I bet you can't show where TeeZee said "no one had ever turbo'd a two stroke before the 90's".



Isn't this what he said...........

And has posted a few pictures of what a Abgasturbolader (exhaust gas turbocharger) actually looks like, so you might know what your talking about next time.

Uh huh.... So Abgasturbolader actually means Waste gas turbo loader ( I could go into a German language lesson, but I feel that is unnecessary, and just arguing over semantics.... The word for turbo in German is actually much longer, and is only that short for ease of typing)

Would you then say that if an abgasturbolader Is a "turbo run off exhaust gasses", then is there another type of turbo, that is Not run off exhaust gasses?

Otherwise, why would the inventors of the thing define a "turbo run off waste gas".... Is there another type of turbo? .....I.e one that is powered off something other than "waste gas"?

I realise that this is something that you like to do, ( waste time with childish nonsense) but it may be wise not to get into an argument with me over a language you know sweet fa about.

[bucketracer]

Please..............of course we know sweet fa about the German language, but we were able to figure out enough to know you were wrong and worse trying to confuse things to cover up your embarrassment. And now you are trying to distract us again by making it an argeument about language.........

So like the magical turbo Kriedler you claim existed in the 50's but you can't back your statment up.

I bet you can't show where TeeZee said "no one had ever turbo'd a two stroke before the 90's"......its just a little fib of yours, as he didn't did he..........

Should we now be just disregarding all of your posts as nonsense..........

[F5 Dave]

The mercedes with the kompressor badge use a roots type supercharger manufactured by eaton.
. . . .

Yes yes yes, all very well. But where was the badge made?

[gatch]

Would you then say that if an abgasturbolader Is a "turbo run off exhaust gasses", then is there another type of turbo, that is Not run off exhaust gasses?

Otherwise, why would the inventors of the thing define a "turbo run off waste gas".... Is there another type of turbo? .....I.e one that is powered off something other than "waste gas"?


Semantics..

If I was to ask you for a cold chisel, would you assume I have a hot one lurking in my tool box as well ?

Given that the word turbo is just a short version of turbine, IE the part the exhaust gases are actuating, then no, I doubt there is another kind of turbo as far as car engines go.

GTE's, windmills, hydro generators etc are all based on turbines but are not (commonly) linked to cars/bikes.

Moral of the story is, stop blowing hot air, your fuel air mix is too lean, keep running this boost pressure and you just might detonate.

[Yow Ling]

there are several reasons why turbochargers werent suitable for bikes untill the 70s or 80s
the metalurgy to make a small very highspeed turbine reliable at the speeds and temperatures required, a small turb like a IHI rhb 3 runs at aprox 150,000 rpm at around 1000 to 1200 degrees c.
most turbs available pre 1970 were for diesel engines which run much lower egts, also theywernt fitted with mechanical face seals as compressors were never subjucted to negative pressures that are experienced in petrol engines using suck through carburetion.
Turbochargers that were available were sized for 2l and larger engines and required significant exhaust heat and flow to spool up.
I doubt there were any turbo bikes in the 40s or 50s, however there was alot of work done in positive displacment supercharging by all the european manufacturers including dkw, bmw, puch, nsu, cz. this included vane , piston ,and rootes type blowers. The mercedes badges are probably made in Guantanamo Bay

[Buckets4Me]

.


There were two developments that allowed the manufacture of high revving 100,000 150,000 + rpm exhaust gas turbine driven centrifugal air pumps (turbochargers) on a commercial scale. One was new quality steel that could withstand the temperatures of the exhaust for the turbine and the other was the concept of a floating bush for a main bearing that rides on a cushion of oil to damp out the small but destructive vibrations from the rotating assembly.

I don’t think these two important developments that made turbochargers possible were known in the 50’s and 60’s, do you.
...

10 points to Yow Ling

[SS90]

there are several reasons why turbochargers werent suitable for bikes untill the 70s or 80s
the metalurgy to make a small very highspeed turbine reliable at the speeds and temperatures required, a small turb like a IHI rhb 3 runs at aprox 150,000 rpm at around 1000 to 1200 degrees c.
most turbs available pre 1970 were for diesel engines which run much lower egts, also theywernt fitted with mechanical face seals as compressors were never subjucted to negative pressures that are experienced in petrol engines using suck through carburetion.
Turbochargers that were available were sized for 2l and larger engines and required significant exhaust heat and flow to spool up.
I doubt there were any turbo bikes in the 40s or 50s, however there was alot of work done in positive displacment supercharging by all the european manufacturers including dkw, bmw, puch, nsu, cz. this included vane , piston ,and rootes type blowers. The mercedes badges are probably made in Guantanamo Bay

As most people are well aware, shed loads of development is done during war time, and, during both world wars, aircraft where the Main benefactors of this.

As I understand it, one big problem was performance at high altitude for aircraft, leading to all sides having " exhaust driven turbines" on several aircraft.... But opting for "externally powered turbines" due to reliability ( and I assume cost), likely for reasons you have outlined previously.

Perhaps someone who is familure with aircraft can enlighten us on the models etc.

I said ( possibly 1956, and issued a rider that I was not sure of the date), I would now go to say that it was "mid 60's" when several European manufacturers had Compressor's on 2 strokes.... Both driven of exhaust gas, or another power source.

Considering " exhaust gas powered turbines" where winning the Indy 500 in the early sixties, and running since before then) I fail to understand why it is so hard to accept that many factories where able to get working
examples of their own.....

I believe the badges are made in Vietnam.

[Yow Ling]

I fail to understand why it is so hard to accept that many factories where able to get working
examples of their own.....



Some people belive in god , they often have trouble like you are experiencing.
Show some evidence , rather than just speculating and demanding everyone follow your beliefs.

another difficulty with turbing a 50cc 2t is the need for a full flow oil supply around 5 to 10 l per minute. now you need a sump and oilpump

P38 was one of the first turbo supercharged aircraft, to get reliability the turbine was half exposed to the airstream, WW2 was very early days.

[SS90]

Some people belive in god , they often have trouble like you are experiencing.
Show some evidence , rather than just speculating and demanding everyone follow your beliefs.

another difficulty with turbing a 50cc 2t is the need for a full flow oil supply around 5 to 10 l per minute. now you need a sump and oilpump

P38 was one of the first turbo supercharged aircraft, to get reliability the turbine was half exposed to the airstream, WW2 was very early days.

Nice attitude.

So the P38 was the first turbo supercharged aircraft...... And it worked........

Just because you cannot find something on the Internet, does not make it untrue. Just as just because you find something on the internet, does not make it true.

I have pictures of several engines ( 2 and 4 stroke) that where "way way way ahead of their time " ( so to speak, or perhaps that means some people are way way way BEHIND the times....)

Come on man, people rant and rave about synthetic fuels, and so on, but the reality is that almost every aircraft engine in WW2 was run off synthetic fuel...... Extracted from Coal...... You could make it today if you felt the need.

Internal combustion engines have been chuffing their way round the world since 1883..... The first one was made less that 200km from where I am sitting....

I'll make a deal..... If Teezee finishes his Plenum....and posts PRINTED dyno graphs, as well as a video of the runs, I will post 5 pictures of an Austrian exhaust gas propelled turbine boosted engine and 3 pictures of a German exhaust gas propelled turbine boosted engine,( I am starting to see why the termsTURBO and SUPERCHARGE where brought into use in the English Vernacular ) before 1966.

The one positive thing we can all take from the latest "shit talk" portion of this thread is that someone else is contributing..... Makes a nice change.

[SS90]

haha

you are so keen for TZ to post pics but you back nothing up that you say



217416217417is there a pic of this running dyno graph etc ??

didn't think so

The links are dead, tell me which ones you want dyno graphs of, and I will post them.... we are at work for another 2 hours .... I'll check back soon....

[Virago]

If the childish abuse continues, I'm more than happy to chuck everything in PD again, and infract the arse of anyone who continues with the crap.

Enough, eh?

[sonic_v]

In 1965 Kreidler had a 50cc TURBO CHARGED 2 stroke that took the world 50cc world speed record 225km/h


Kreidlers 50cc 1965 world record set at Bonneville used a mechanical driven supercharger of the vane type. It used two disc valves for induction.

http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/images/65sckreidler.jpg

And from the other side

http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/images/superchargedkreidler2.jpg

Sketch of the vane type supercharger.

http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/images/kreidlersupercharger.jpg

[TZ350]

Great stuff Sonic, so now we know for sure, not turbocharged in 65, like I thought and unless there is some evidence to the contrary, not before that either I would think.

Your post and pic's have filled out the picture of 50's and 60's Kompressor bikes....................

Thanks for a post with supporting references that can be followed up. I just love the engineering that goes into those little Kreidlers.

I have been having a poke around on the site and its very interesting. http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/

[TZ350]

Ok we have fallen into a few traps for beginners. The flywheel on the left is 71mm ID and the one on the right 68mm, which means the poles are different sizes. And as magnetic flux and therefore voltage generated is affected by how close the pole is to the magnets in the flywheel a small pole in a large flywheel would give poor results if they were mixed up. We also added a smoothing capacitor for better measuring accuracy of the DC output with the digital Volt meter.

We have tried several coils and found we could get 100 turns of 1.0mm wire, 200 turns of 0.8mm or 410 turns of 0.6mm wire on a bobbin.

We need 0.8 mm wire with an area of 0.50mm2 and 420 turns for 14Volts DC at 2.5 Amps. So the only way to get anywhere near that, we will have to wind two bobbins with 410 turns of 0.6mm wire each, and wire them in parallel. That would effectively give us an effective 0.85 mm diameter wire for 0.57mm2 area, and hopefully that will give us the Voltage we want and handle the current needed.

Next week we will get Bucket to make them and see how it goes.......

[TZ350]

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<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/p4ef-WUO1Qs&hl=en_GB&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/p4ef-WUO1Qs&hl=en_GB&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
ta da!


……….as I have theorised before, the problem seems to be a weakened signal at the main jet/slide needle orifice..... Just like when you "over carb" an engine.

I was hoping you could at least prove the merit of the Plenum. Just getting it to carburate correctly would be a start, and simply increase the plenum volume gradually.

This is the original video of the plenum that was posted some time ago….........……the carburation sounds OK to me…....……

[SS90]

This is the original video of the plenum that was posted some time ago….........……the carburation sounds OK to me…....……

Let us please not get off track this time.

many is the time that all tuners have fooled them selves (myself included) that just because an engine revs clean with out load, then if it is simply a matter of jetting to get it to run correctly under load.

This, in my experience is simply not true.

The reason I asked you to post a picture of your dyno graph is that with that, I can get a better idea of what is happening.

You just posted a series of seemingly random numbers that did not really help.

I have over a decade of dyno experience Teezee, in 3 different countries, and I believe I can identify many problems as long as I am given the correct accurate information .

I think you yourself conceeded that there was a possibility that the problem was "signal strenghth at the jet", something I alluded to when the subject of "blarrggghs" came up.

This onomatopoeia type description I can identify with, and, along with your description of when it is happening (midrange), is pretty much on par with what happens when you "over carb" an engine.

Which, a symptom of which is the same as your experiencing now, caused by a weakened signal strength at the main jet....... Which is why you have such massive main jet, when in all logic, just basing the jet size on realistic flow rates, there is no way in hell that jet could be flowing correctly, as you would only get a few laps on full throttle and run out of gas!

All the bigger jet is doing is making it easier for the fuel to come through the larger jet (which offers less restriction for the air/fuel mixture), as the weakened signal strength is too low to force the fuel through the smaller jet.

The amount if fuel that does actually get through is more or less the same with either the smaller (correct size) carb with the smaller jet, or the (too big) sized carb with the massive jet.

I have seen literally dozens of people turn up to a dyno with massive carbs and try to get me to jet it......the end result is always the same..." erm, now let's try a carb 10mm smaller", straight away, it carburates correctly, and changing the main jet actually has some effect, as well as needle settings.

I still believe you problem is the same, and since your whole concept is about over coming the carb size restriction, Why is it so hard to see that there is every possibility that the plenum is simply too big?

It won't take much work to quickly reduce the size of the Plenum a pair of bucket racers socks jammed in the plenum will do for a test run.

The amount of oil you talk about in the Plenum, if I am right, will diminish anyway, as if the engine carburates correctly, such things (standoff) are reduced, and in any event, take a look at a pre 95 Honda RS125 (no air box) after one race the back of the frame is coated in oil, from where the engine "blargggs" it is even worse when it is ridden by a novice and spends too much time under 8,000rpm.

[TZ350]

Thank you for taking an interest in the plenum, gives me a chance to talk about it again……

BMEP - the professional engine developer and tuners yard stick...........

Brake Mean Effective Pressure (BMEP) is a very effective yardstick for comparing the performance of one engine to another, and for evaluating the reasonableness of performance claims.

The definition of BMEP for a 2-stroke is: the average (mean) pressure, which if imposed on the piston uniformly from the top to the bottom of each power stroke, it would produce the measured (brake) power output. For a 4-stroke you have to take both cycles into account.

Note that BMEP is purely theoretical and has nothing to do with actual cylinder pressures. It is simply an effective comparison tool. You can even use it to compare a 125cc 2-stroke's performance to a large 4-stroke diesel train engine. BMEP is a universal yard stick for piston powered internal combustion engines, a quick Google will turn up heaps of information on BMEP, the way to use it and the science behind it.

Brake Mean Effective Pressure (BMEP)
2-Stroke BMEP = (HP x 6500)/(L x RPM)
4-Stroke BMEP = (HP x 13000)/(L x RPM)
L = Displacement in Liters i.e., 80 cc = 0.08, 125 cc = 0.125 Liters 1 ci. = 16.39 cc


…… many is the time that all tuners have fooled them selves (myself included) that just because an engine revs clean with out load, then if it is simply a matter of jetting to get it to run correctly under load.

This, in my experience is simply not true.

The reason I asked you to post a picture of your dyno graph is that with that, I can get a better idea of what is happening.

You just posted a series of seemingly random numbers that did not really help.

I have over a decade of dyno experience Teezee, in 3 different countries, and I believe I can identify many problems as long as I am given the correct accurate information .…..

As you know, a graph is not possible with Johns dyno.........................

And so I was surprised that the value of the data was not recognized or appreciated when I posted those numbers. They were published so you could make a valid comparison between the conventional setup and plenum using the BMEP approach, the way professional engine tuners might if that's all there was to work with.

and also, so you didn't have to just take my word for it.

So in an effort to not fool ourselves, lets leave the twin sisters Faith-Based and Hope at home, give their big brother Dogmatism the slip and bring our good friends Open-Minded and Science to the party so they can run the numbers I gave you from the plenum dyno session (the engine setup was ex opening at 86deg ATDC, 24/28 diffuser carb and Honda RS125 chamber).

BMEP of my 125 at 21 hp and 9,500rpm = 115 psi Conventional Carb Setup (Inlet closing 85deg ATDC)
BMEP of my 125 at 20 hp and 8,500rpm = 122 psi Plenum Chamber Setup (Inlet closing 35deg ATDC)

The difference in inlet timing came about because I mistakenly thought shortening the inlet duration was what was required to cure the blarrrrs. But the problem was cured by lengthening the inlet tract inside the plenum. And I did not have the time or energy to change the inlet timing once again before I went to Johns to dyno the bike with the plenum fitted.

So for my bike 115psi BMEP conventional and 122psi BMEP plenum and both using the 24/28 diffuser carb. Now what does that tell you............:yes:

The better BMEP number for the plenum suggests the plenum has potential and could be a winner if the inlet duration is extended. Only suggests mind you, it could be the better filling at the lower rpm or the shorter inlet duration suited it, or the pipe was more suited for the lower rpm. But I suspect that a later inlet closing point with the plenum will release some more power, more power than could be made with a conventional carb setup.

I will have to test to find out, and along with the new bike and engine I am making a plenum setup that can be quickly interchanged with the conventional setup and both will have adapters to try different carb options for true back to back tests on a dyno.

You can chose which Dyno I use if you pre-pay them for all of the time needed and I will FedX you printouts of all of the results …………..:D

In the mean time there is a video clip of the bike being warmed up, bearing in mind what you said about the RS125 carb spit back, I think the clue as to why the 24/28 diffuser carb needs a bigger jet when fitted to the plenum than when its fitted conventionally is there, look carefully and you might be able to see it too? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxiEo8cgopg its also impressive how quickly the throttle can be opened without the motor stumbling too.

Your thoughts?.............

[SS90]

Only because you and Squiggles have asked. I thought it was only that twit SS90 that was interested.

I can say that it didn't blow up and its first dyno test session, if not spectacular was at least encouraging.

Its the first cut and I would have liked to have completed some more development........

A lot of our recent work was inspired by some sensible and constructive posts earlier from Sonic_V they are worth another look….……





This is from memory, and remember Johns dyno only graphs rwhp against road speed so rpm has to be calculated.

The original engine with a std 24mm carb and an inlet duration of 225deg made 19+rwhp at 11,250 rpm.

The same engine was fitted with a barrel that has enlarged transfers and a reduced exhaust duration as suggested by SS90 and a 24mm venturi carb as suggested by Sonic_V which was fitted conventionally on the side, it made 21+rwhp at 9,500rpm. It ran best on a 130 main jet and was a strong runner at Taupo.

Same engine, same carb same 225deg inlet duration but with the plenum chamber, it was frighteningly fast up the drive on Taupo gearing but suffered badly from a flat spot below the power band at about 4-5k rpm.

Sonic_V in one of his early posts had suggested an inlet closing point of 60deg ATDC, for a duration of 205deg.

Same plenum engine, same carb but with 205deg inlet duration it still suffered from a lesser but significant flat spot below the power band at about 4-5k rpm.

Reducing the closing point to 45 then 35 degrees ATDC for a duration of 180 reduced the flat spot but it still made the bike unrideable in competition.

Increasing the inlet tract length inside the plenum by 35mm cured the flat spot and it was rideable on the track at Mt Wellington in the wet.

Now Dyno Time….

21+rwhp at 9,500 rpm from the conventional engine with 225 deg inlet duration Sonic_V venture carb SS90 barrel, Honda RS125 chamber and 130 main jet.

20+rwhp at 8,500 rpm from the same engine fitted with the plenum and 180deg inlet duration and it ran best on a 185 main jet.

Interestingly the plenum engine made much more hp below the power band, about 4-5hp every where and this extra low down grunt probably accounts for the wheel spin when giving it some big throttle during testing at Mt Welly.

Testing stopped when we realised that there may be a lubrication problem as most of the pre-mix oil was being left behind in the plenum. To do any more development I will have to build an auto lube motor to go with the plenum.

As the BMEP for 20rwhp at 8,500 is a whole lot better than for 21 at 9,500, it will be interesting to see where the plenum idea goes with more inlet duration and barrel/chamber mods as suggested by Sonic_V for max power at 10,500.

Team ESE are building some new chassis and I have taken the plenum off old Blue to use in the new bike.

So there you have it, encouraging but not spectacular….. "yet"………

Gentelmen do you want to place your bets?

This is what you posted regarding your Plenum Dyno runs TeeZee

It makes no sense what so ever.

You wiffle on about BMP, but it reads to me like smoke and mirrors.

[TZ350]

Now Dyno Time….

21+rwhp at 9,500 rpm from the conventional engine with 225 deg inlet duration Sonic_V venture carb SS90 barrel, Honda RS125 chamber and 130 main jet.

20+rwhp at 8,500 rpm from the same engine fitted with the plenum and 180deg inlet duration and it ran best on a 185 main jet.

As the BMEP for 20rwhp at 8,500 is a whole lot better than for 21 at 9,500, it will be interesting to see where the plenum idea goes with more inlet duration and barrel/chamber mods as suggested by Sonic_V for max power at 10,500.

So there you have it, encouraging but not spectacular….. "yet"………



This is what you posted regarding your Plenum Dyno runs TeeZee

It makes no sense what so ever.

You wiffle on about BMP, but it reads to me like smoke and mirrors.

I have paired the original post down and highlighted it so others, who maybe less experienced than you can more easily see that the data was there, and check the maths if they like.

I am surprised an accomplished engine tuner would think using BMEP as an evaluation tool is wiffle……........ and there was a lot of information in that original post.

[SS90]

Ok, I would Like to graph it out, and compare it with your non plenum run, as well as some others I have.

can you please post the data you have as it come from Johns computer, and I will convert it to a x and y graph myself, then over lay each one, so I can get a better picture of the shape of your curve ( since we are talking about BMP)

The P4 we use has a facility to graph out a curve based on the type of data Johns prints out, so I will just have to enter in the data, and can print out a graph for you. That is the theory anyway, I have never tried it, it will be a first, but I am told it will work.

[TZ350]

…….......The difference in inlet timing came about because I mistakenly thought shortening the inlet duration was what was required to cure the blarrrrs. But the problem was cured by lengthening the inlet tract inside the plenum..............

The blarrrs or hole were cured a long time ago by lengthening the inlet tract, its frustrating having to repeat my self, so please note, "The Blars Are No More", I have said this all before, several times and so we don't need any help to cure them.

Also the plenum engine and diffuser carb drive very well on the track, It has been out at Taupo and Mt Wellington for tests. Other issues have delayed its development, at Taupo a damaged gear box gear, at Mt Wellington, rider injury, the oiling problem, and the building of a new engine and bike.

Power Run, "there are no blarrs" and the carburetion is good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ef-WUO1Qs

There is also a very valid reason why the 24/28 diffuser carb or any other kind of carb needs a conventional jet when the carb is used conventionally and would need a much larger jet when used un-conventionally with the plenum.

Very easy startup and the clue about why a larger jet is required, and it is "no spit back"......... from the plenums carburetor, so what do you think could be happining? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxiEo8cgopg

I will post updated pictures of all the bits and pieces including the difference in inlet tract length that cured the blarrs when I get into work today, as everything is kept there.......

[SS90]

The blarrrs or hole were cured a long time ago by lengthening the inlet tract, its frustrating having to repeat my self, so please note, "The Blars Are No More", I have said this all before, several times and so we don't need any help to cure them.

Also the plenum engine and diffuser carb drive very well on the track, It has been out at Taupo and Mt Wellington for tests. Other issues have delayed its development, at Taupo a damaged gear box gear, at Mt Wellington, rider injury, the oiling problem, and the building of a new engine and bike.

Power Run, "there are no blarrs" and the carburetion is good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ef-WUO1Qs

There is also a very valid reason why the 24/28 diffuser carb or any other kind of carb needs a conventional jet when the carb is used conventionally and would need a much larger jet when used un-conventionally with the plenum.

Very easy startup and the clue about why a larger jet is required, and it is "no spit back"......... from the plenums carburetor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxiEo8cgopg

I will post updated pictures of all the bits and pieces including the difference in inlet tract length that cured the blarrs when I get into work today, as everything is kept there.......

Ok, I am trying not to fustrate you here TeeZee, but where I think the confusion is is what I would deem an "all gear run"- Sure, it revs out in first gear..... But what happens when you go for 2nd 3rd on so on, going by your figures you posted, there is indeed a "hole" in the rev range, so much so that when you change gears, an the revs dip back in to the "hole" it takes an eternity fir the engine to get back into the power..... Running 45 meters in first gear down a drive way is not a test for a tunes engine, that is why I continually ask for video of the dyno run or some laps round the track.

Like I say TeeZee, there are people from all over the world following this, and the guys I introduced to this thread over here are not impressed, and just the same as me, they cannot understand why you won't post a video of the bike on the dyno (you say it works- I say, ok, show us.)...... prove to me it works, and I will leave.

[TZ350]

Like I say TeeZee, there are people from all over the world following this, and the guys I introduced to this thread over here are not impressed, and just the same as me, they cannot understand why you won't post a video of the bike on the dyno (you say it works- I say, ok, show us.)...... prove to me it works, and I will leave.


The blarrrs or hole were cured a long time ago by lengthening the inlet tract, its frustrating having to repeat my self...........Also the plenum engine and diffuser carb drive very well on the track, It has been out at Taupo and Mt Wellington for tests..............

I don't have to prove it or impress anyone, who cares what your friends think........ I publish my work out of interest and to enjoy sharing with civil people.

But great, your friends, its just a thought......but maybe one of your friends could impress us by providing you with some literature or a photo of a turbocharged 60's or better yet 50's small competition European 2-stroke so you can prove your own claim.

I would very much like to see one as I just love those small racers as I also have an F5 bike myself...............

[TZ350]

Page 180 links collection, I will post them here when I have collated them..........

[TZ350]

The current Development of the plenum

The plenum idea was to work around the restriction imposed by the 24mm carb. And the theory is that as the motor only sucks for half the time, then the carb at WOT has twice the time to fill the plenum. So the total air flow to the motor could be greatly increased.

There are other advantages to, like the throttle response is softer and the motor gets to suck through a much bigger straw. <o>:p</o>

217820


I have been making a plenum and conventional arrangement with adapter plates so that different carbs and setups can be tried quickly for true back to back dyno tests.

We have a range of carbs to try, 24mm original, 24 OKO flatslide, 24/28 diffuser carb, 24/34, diffuser and 24,38. Some of these carbs flow very well on the test bench but wether they work in real life is to be seen. Intuitively I expect the plenum would show the best comparative result with the most restrictive carb and give less relative benefit with the better flowing carb's as they would have choked the motor less when used conventionally.

The white spacer is there to allow a longer inlet tract and to space the cover off the bell mouth. The cover was a bit close before, less than one inlet diameter, so was probably restricting the inlet a bit.

217818

The plenum with the cover off, the green Scotch Bright is a cushion for the blow off valve. The motor with or without the plenum is prone to backfiring when overreved. I don't know why but I have heard that Go Karts do it too.

So when the engine backfires there is a pop from the plenum and carb bell mouth.

217821


When I first made the plenum I made it with a very short inlet. I had brought into the, shorter the better inlet idea. But this proved wrong and to be a problem. It was the source of the Blarrrs thing at 4-5,000 rpm. and I wrongly thought the inlet duration needed shortening but that had only marginal effect. Lengthening the inlet was the answer.

Every one knows there is a relation ship between Tuned-Length and RPM but there is also a relationship between Inlet-Tract-Length and Diameter and Inlet-Closing-Point, all three things have to work together.

The plastic tube is my answer to the oiling problem. The oil drops out as the fuel evaporates, just like it is supposed too. But unfortunately it mostly happens in the plenum, so my answer is to just suck it all up again through a tube with a filter on the end of it.

217822

Lengthening the inlet tract was what cured the blarrrs.

The interesting thing is the plenum carb needs a very large main jet as the air flow is all one way into the plenum, unlike a conventional setup where the air spits back and then gets sucked in again, thereby picking up at least three loads of fuel with its three passes past the main jet.

The bike has been ridden around the track and works very well. The 24/28 diffuser carb that Sonic_V got me thinking about and the plenum work together OK, no holes or dips, they just drive nicely.

The only thing that I have noticed is that you can get onto the gas early as it comes on the throttle quite gently, a bit like a 4-stroke does.

I imagine that will be an advantage on a tight track like Mt Wellington where you don't want that typical 2-stroke catchiness as you peel into a corner.

217826

But untill my FZR/GP125...........

217827

Looks like Chambers one......... there won't be any videos or dyno charts or whatever else........

The plan is to get my bike up and running, then tuned up and tested on Johns dyno.

And just in case anyone is wondering..... I don't give a rats-toss whatever anyone else thinks and certainly couldn't give a f#@k if they expect me to impress them or prove any thing.

I am here to enjoy good company and intelligent and constructive exchange about small 2-stroke tuning and racing and the company of those new and old who are actually out there doing it.

If anyone wants take up my time looking for charts, data or special videoed dyno runs to prove that it works, then when I have got my bike up and running they can pre-pay for the dyno time at a local place of their choice.........:girlfight:


I assure you Turbo charged 2 strokes have been around since the 50's..... Just because you cannot find one on google does not mean they did not exist.

...... or bribe me with a good photo or two of a pre 50's/60's turbocharged small European race 2-stroke if they or their friends have got anything........ :msn-wink:http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/misc/pencil.png

[Sketchy_Racer]

I know this might be a silly idea, but have you thought about putting a clear cover over the plenum chamber and seeing if you can see any interesting fuel/air movements inside the chamber? Could give some real insight as to how the air is moving around inside there and I assume you would be able to see it as the air will be mixed with fuel which will give it a misty look?

Just curious.

-Sketchy

[TZ350]

..........but have you thought about putting a clear cover over the plenum chamber and seeing if you can see any interesting fuel/air movements inside the chamber? Could give some real insight as to how the air is moving around inside there...............

Thanks Sketchy

Thats an interesting idea, I will see what I have got about the place that I can use ..........

I expect we would see typical spit back from the inlet tract inside the plenum, much like you would have seen if it was a conventional carburetor and with your view port idea we could see it and how bad it is.

Anyway it would be great bling....................

[SS90]

The current Development of the plenum



[FONT=Arial Unicode MS][SIZE=2]Lengthening the inlet tract was what cured the blarrrs.

The interesting thing is the plenum carb needs a very large main jet as the air flow is all one way into the plenum, unlike a conventional setup where the air spits back and then gets sucked in again, thereby picking up at least three loads of fuel with its three passes past the main jet.

[FONT=Arial Unicode MS]The bike has been ridden around the track and works very well. The 24/28 diffuser carb that Sonic_V got me thinking about and the plenum work together OK, no holes or dips, they just drive nicely.[/


What is this about the air passing 3 times passed the main jet?

I honestly have never heard about that... Can you elborate a bit?

Is this only on you bike, or do all Two strokes do this?

Does the air go into the engine, taking the fuel with it, the the disc valve closes, the incoming air "bounce" off the now closed valve, return passed the main jet, picking up more fuel with it, and then enter the wrong way out the carb, into the atmosphere, then, when the disc valve opens again, the negative pressure of the engine create a depression, so the positive air behind the carb ( now some of which is charged with fuel) again pass through the bell mouth, passed the emus lion tube, picking up more fuel as it does, then in through the open disc valve and into the engine.

Is this the 3 three times charge you talk of?

This is new to me.
Am I correct in my breakdown of this?

Because this is new to me.

[F5 Dave]

Well I'm confused, is this sarcasm? Of course there are conditions where it passes through 3 times, but only when well out of the tuned rev range where the disc is still open too long (or piston port) which is why engines of these types load up more than reed valves esp if they run long inlet periods. Cure; keep it revving, or less inlet duration. But you know this. so. . . ?

[SS90]

Well I'm confused, is this sarcasm? Of course there are conditions where it passes through 3 times, but only when well out of the tuned rev range where the disc is still open too long (or piston port) which is why engines of these types load up more than reed valves esp if they run long inlet periods. Cure; keep it revving, or less inlet duration. But you know this. so. . . ?

Yea, poorly worded sarcasm.

Under normal conditions, fuel does not pass through 3 times, it was worded that way by Teezee, and I really am trying to keep this thread going in a constructive factual way believe it or not.

I actually want to see how this plenum goes.

I note that it does this with or with out the Plenum, and TeeZee mentioned that air in a Plenum only goes one way, I wonder if that is indeed the case, are the symptoms the same, for different causes, or, something else.

The other thing that has me thinking hard is the current length of the bell mouth in relation to the plenum, as it is so close to the cover, what effect does this have on the airflow, I have no idea.

I have experimented with intake manifold lengths quite a bit, (as have others), and no two people been able to tell me the same data, and I would have thought in a Plenum situation, shorter was indeed better. As TeeZee did tzo start with.

I found on a 125cc, 142mm was best for a piston window reed set up, and others (disc valve), 15mm from the disc... Having that longer manifold now requires a bigger plenum volume to allow for the length, how does that affect the whole set up?

[jasonu]

I know this might be a silly idea, but have you thought about putting a clear cover over the plenum chamber and seeing if you can see any interesting fuel/air movements inside the chamber? Could give some real insight as to how the air is moving around inside there and I assume you would be able to see it as the air will be mixed with fuel which will give it a misty look?

Just curious.

-Sketchy

Sounds interesting. Try videoing it and play it back on slow motion.

[jasonu]

Yea, poorly worded sarcasm.

Under normal conditions, fuel does not pass through 3 times, it was worded that way by Teezee, and I really am trying to keep this thread going in a constructive factual way believe it or not.

I actually want to see how this plenum goes.

I note that it does this with or with out the Plenum, and TeeZee mentioned that air in a Plenum only goes one way, I wonder if that is indeed the case, are the symptoms the same, for different causes, or, something else.

The other thing that has me thinking hard is the current length of the bell mouth in relation to the plenum, as it is so close to the cover, what effect does this have on the airflow, I have no idea.

I have experimented with intake manifold lengths quite a bit, (as have others), and no two people been able to tell me the same data, and I would have thought in a Plenum situation, shorter was indeed better. As TeeZee did tzo start with.

I found on a 125cc, 142mm was best for a piston window reed set up, and others (disc valve), 15mm from the disc... Having that longer manifold now requires a bigger plenum volume to allow for the length, how does that affect the whole set up?

Mate, you sound like you might have a clue or two. Maybe if you read your posts BEFORE you publish them and removed some of the agressiveness, others might be more inclined to listen to what you have to say.
Just sayin'

[Buckets4Me]

A final note on carburetion: In all two-stroke engines intake pulses are very strong
and the sonic wave activity considerable, which has effects both good and unpleasant.
On the credit side is that the high-amplitude pulsations do make it possible to obtain very
high specific power from the mechanically-simple piston-port engine by blocking
blowback during the second half of the intake period. But these same pulsations also
have a terrible effect on the carburetor's ability to accurately meter fuel, by leading a
large part of the air drawn into the engine past the spray nozzle three times: Air passes
the nozzle moving into the intake tract, then reverses direction as a result of the pulse
generated when the intake port chops shut, and passes the spray nozzle a third time as the
next intake period begins. This may sound slightly improbable - but there is absolute
evidence it is happening in the fog of fuel one sees dancing in front of the two-stroke
engine's carburetor.


just a quick search http://www.vintagesleds.com/library/manuals/misc/Two-stroke%20Tuner%27s%20Handbook.pdf
page 142 in the book or 152 in the pdf



Under normal conditions, fuel does not pass through 3 times,


by my understanding you have that backwards

[Buckets4Me]

Sounds interesting. Try videoing it and play it back on slow motion.

Talking to Thomas today and he sugested that you use an engine timing light to see the fog infrount of the carburetor
and that it should be positioned in the carburetor bell mouth at peek power/torque

[F5 Dave]

Ahh you changed it before I could quote you. But what are 'normal conditions'?

in a race engine one would hope that you are always in the (I hate this word) Powerband. In a road engine with minimal openings & shallow coned pipes then the effect will be reduced but spread over a huge range so it won't be a real problem.

If you were silly enough to trail ride a GP100, maybe with some knoblies, you would note an unpleasant phenomena on closed throttle down a long hill & you come upon a small log that you want to heft the front wheel over. You open the throttle & the wheel bounces off the log as the engine goes bluuuurrr.

Don't ask me how I know.

[TZ350]

2-stroke tuning is a hobby for me and I am constantly awed by a self proclaimed professional’s ability to surprise me with the depth of his knowledge.


I assure you Turbo charged 2 strokes have been around since the 50's..... Just because you cannot find one on google does not mean they did not exist.

I don’t think so but change my mind with a picture……., get your friends to help you, in all of Europe there must be at least one picture you could find.


This is what you posted regarding your Plenum Dyno runs TeeZee It makes no sense what so ever.

I posted the data so you could use the BMEP method to make an informed judgment about the std vis plenum dyno runs.


You wiffle on about BMEP, but it reads to me like smoke and mirrors.

BMEP is the universal yard stick for piston powered internal combustion engines, a quick Google will turn up heaps of information on BMEP, the way to use it and the science behind it.

A target BMEP is usually the first place to start when planing an engine development (hot up) program…… check out TSR, MOTA, Bimotion and other 2-stroke development software systems.

Also exhaust gas temp or target BMEP is one of the first questions that any chamber development program asks.

Amongst other things average exhaust gas temp can be determined from BMEP.


What is this about the air passing 3 times passed the main jet?

And


I honestly have never heard about that.….do all Two strokes do this?

This is new to me.

Try the last page of the carburettor section of Jennings book.

“ Air passes the nozzle moving into the intake tract, then reverses direction as a result of the pulse
generated when the intake port chops shut, and passes the spray nozzle a third time as the
next intake period begins. This may sound slightly improbable - but there is absolute
evidence it is happening in the fog of fuel one sees dancing in front of the two-stroke
engine's carburetor.”


Under normal conditions, fuel does not pass through 3 times……….

At certain RPM some spit back is thrown out so far it does not get sucked in again and the fuel wets the area around the carburettor, I would call this the Blarrrs and is not what I am talking about.

But I have seen the carb fog phenomenon on the dyno and expect you have too.

So when the engine is up on the pipe and making real power, what is that dancing reversion cloud of fuel in the carbs bell mouth if its not fuel mixture passing the jet three times. Jennings

.

[SS90]

Yes, but it seems only on Disc valve, at high RPM.

Giving the backfiring at the carb you mentioned.

I used to think that disc valves had a ceiling rpm limit of say, 12 or 13 thousand, the that was it (due to the phenominon you describe), and it certainly seemed true with different experiments I tried.

I then learned of a Minerelli engine from (I think) 1973 or 74 - It was an 80cc disc valve, GP engine (tuned by a company from Vienna who's name illudes me just now) water cooled head, thermosyphon set up) that revved to 20,000 and produced a claimed 27ps, when their piston ported engine could only manage 21 or 22ps revving to 17,000.

That kind of blew me away, and I stillmhave never managed to get a disc valve revving ghat hard, and I know of a tuner who has never got to rev over 13,000, from a disc valve- and he really knows his shit.

I am baffled by the symptom you have, where either with or with-out the plenum, the engine spits back out of the carb at high rpm, as you would expect that if it was inlet timing issue, you would expect one inlet set up to remedy the fault, unless, like I say, the symptom is the Same, but for different reasons.

Do you know where in the rev range this phenomenon occurs, I mean is it 10,000 rpm or more?

[TZ350]

.
What you have written in your last post sounds like Wiffle to me...............

We were talking about why the plenum carb needed a much larger jet than the conventional carb does, and I believe that's because in the conventional setup the mixture passes the main jet at least three times and in the plenum setup, only once, when they are both running at there best..

A reasoned argument about what the fuel fog in the bell mouth or lack of it, at full power means, is the topic at the moment.


Yes, but it seems only on Disc valve, at high RPM.

The last page of the carburetor section of Jennings book was not specifically talking about rotary valve engines.

“ Air passes the nozzle moving into the intake tract, then reverses direction as a result of the pulse
generated when the intake port chops shut, reverses

(and travels back out to the bell mouth passing the nozzle for the second time, reverses again at the open bell mouth end) (added by myself for clarity)

and passes the spray nozzle a third time as the next intake period begins.

This may sound slightly improbable - but there is absolute
evidence it is happening in the fog of fuel one sees dancing in front of the two-stroke
engine's carburetor.” Jennings.


If there is not three passes of the mixture mass past the main jet then how do you think that the pressurized mass of mixture that every tuner tries to get pressing up against the inlet valve just in time to burst into the crankcase as soon as the valve opens gets there? whether its piston-reed-or-rotary-valve, its all the same.

Whats the path the mixture has traveled in the inlet tract when every thing is working at its best?...............I have written the clue above...........

I couldn't quickly find any 2-stroke examples so these 4-stroke ones will have to do, its the same objective, large pressure pulse at the inlet valve just as it cracks open.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7393939630149644203&q=V10+Engine#docid=-2158273019926133763

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7393939630149644203&q=V10+Engine#

The reversion or fuel fog can be clearly seen at the bell mouth when the motor is on full song.

I believe this is the same for normaly asperated 2-strokes of any inlet type except for a carb on a large plenum.

If I am mistaken, then maybe someone could show me a good video clip of a reversion-less stroker on the dyno at full power.

I am open to any kind of persuasion except endless Wiffil...........

[speedpro]

My motors, piston port and full crankcase reed, have had a fog of fuel/air standing off the carb entrance on the dyno when the motors were off the pipe. As soon as the motors started climbing on the pipe the fog went away completely. I've had flames dancing round the carb off pipe as well but that was from something else.

[TZ350]

Thanks for that, gives me something to think about.

Our rotary valve engines have as far as I remember had a fog all the time, I did not take much notice of the piston port-read valve RG50's carb when they were on the dyno, I will specifically take note next time.

Will try and video it next time too.

One other thing that interested me was that when we ran a power jet carb. As the revs built up we could see the fuel sucked up the tube to the jet then as the engine started to really get on the pipe the fuel in the power jet tube would start pulsing back and forward. Then at Max rpm the fuel ran back down the tub into the float chamber. Curious.

As we get the bike on the dyno and track, I will be sure to get some video footage of these things to post.

[gatch]

Sort of related but not really..

My buddy had a starlet rally car that had 2 side draft webers equipped. During tarmack events he would have the bonnet off for cooling. A few times it shot some pretty big flames out of one of the webers.

Cool to see from the side of the track, not so cool when inside the car..

[Buckets4Me]

Yes, but it seems only on Disc valve, at high RPM.

Giving the backfiring at the carb you mentioned.

I used to think that disc valves had a ceiling rpm limit of say, 12 or 13 thousand, the that was it (due to the phenominon you describe), and it certainly seemed true with different experiments I tried.

I then learned of a Minerelli engine from (I think) 1973 or 74 - It was an 80cc disc valve, GP engine (tuned by a company from Vienna who's name illudes me just now) water cooled head, thermosyphon set up) that revved to 20,000 and produced a claimed 27ps, when their piston ported engine could only manage 21 or 22ps revving to 17,000.

That kind of blew me away, and I stillmhave never managed to get a disc valve revving ghat hard, and I know of a tuner who has never got to rev over 13,000, from a disc valve- and he really knows his shit.



how about a Suzuki engine that would rev to 20,000 rpm and came out in the late 60's and was ROTARY VALVE ?

Suzuki RP 68
Engine type: Water-cooled 50 cc triple cylinder 2-stroke.
19 hp/ 20,000 rpm (380 bhp per liter), 170 kph.

Suzuki RS 67 U / RS 68
July 1967 - February 1968
Dry weight: 95 kg (209 lbs)
Wheelbase: 1,240 mm
Engine type: Water-cooled 125 cc 90° V-4 2-stroke.
Bore x Stroke: 35.5 x 31.5 mm
Compression ratio: 8.4
Carburetor: VM24
42 hp / 16,500 rpm (350 bhp per liter), 145 mph.

217981 1967 Suzuki 125

217982 1967 Suzuki 50


http://www.ozebook.com/compendium/suzi/rs67.htm 217983

Suzuki RS67

First raced Japanese Grand Prix 1967 (last race of the season in October). 90 degree V4, 4 X 24mm carbs, 4 geared cranks, 12 gears, liquid cooled, positive oil lubrication, disc valve induction. Peak power 42 BHP at 16,500 revs (by Feb of 68 power improved to 43.8BHP), top speed 137 mph, dry sump gearbox with forced lubication from a trochoidal pump. Extensive use of titanium and alloy (frame made from alloy) 95kg weight. Engine produces 340 bhp/litre! Banned after FIM changed the rules and limited 125s to 2 cylinders.


Suzuki did it back in the 60's

[F5 Dave]

My motors, piston port and full crankcase reed, have had a fog of fuel/air standing off the carb entrance on the dyno when the motors were off the pipe. As soon as the motors started climbing on the pipe the fog went away completely. I've had flames dancing round the carb off pipe as well but that was from something else.
Yeah +1 on that.

Flames? too high transfers perhaps? Some bikes scorch reeds.

[bucketracer]

Turbocharged European small 2-stroke bike, maybe early 60's or late 50's???.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diCp4F7FU0k ...........:D

[TZ350]

Thomas and Bucket have got the generator system working OK now, using two coils with 420 turns of 0.6mm enameled wire on each and wired in parallel. The system was made with a new $15 pit bike rectifier/12v-regulator from Trademe and two rolls of 0.6 wire from JayCar at $11 each.

A voltage measurement is more accurate when there is a dummy load on the generator that represents what the running load will be and that's what the light is for. Without the light the generator wouldn't have anything to work against and the voltage would measure (be) too high.

The trick is to use a light bulb that draws the same amount of current as the running load will, in our case that is 2.5A at 12V for an electric water pump and the ignition system.

Pic-1 DC voltage from the rectifier/regulator shown on the left meter and AC from the ignition generator on the right.

Pic-2 Ignition stator with two experimental coils, (not the final ones used though).

Pic-3 Ignition stator, a new coil with 430 turns of 0.6 enameled wire and a $15 pit bike 12V rectifier/regulator from Trademe. The color code is:- Red to battery, Green to earth, Violet and Yellow AC from the generator.

[ac3_snow]

So have you gone back to runing the magneto purely to power an electric water pump?
I'm assuming the benefit of a total loss ignition is to have less rotating mass on the crank therefore the engine revs free'er? but it seems like a fair bit of hassle for what I imagine would be a rather marginal gain?

[TZ350]

Yes your right, destroying a good ignition, someone needs a whipping for that. I know, a lot of people take advantage of the reduced mass to get their bikes to be a little zipper.

But we have found a little extra flywheel weight is useful at a tight track like Mt Wellington, the extra flywheel inertia helps with keeping up the bikes momentum.

The new IgniTech CDI runs directly off the battery and all we needed from the original magneto was the trigger and flywheel mass. So if we can get the old high voltage coil(s) to keep the battery charged, it should be a plus, fingers crossed.

[TZ350]

Got to Christchurch Friday, after some difficulty finding our way around the closed off streets, it was great to catch up with Yow Ling and Bren_CHCH for a chat over coffee.

It was very interesting to hear about Bren's RG400/Kawasaki100 conversion and the thinking and inspiration behind it, it should be a very competitive bike. I was most impressed by Yow Lings printing machinery and the accuracy that goes into printing work.

I was asked the hard question "does the plenum actually work" and yes, in its present configuration it does but only makes 20rwhp. The BMEP numbers suggests it has the potential to be much better.

To make more power it needs the inlet duration lengthening by closing the inlet later than the 35 degrees ATDC that it does at present, 60 would be more normal, even more is possible and I believe it could be done, without causing any unusual problems.

Yow Ling made some very sensible and interesting suggestions about how the plenum idea could be improved, I am thinking about how I could incorporate them.

All in all it was a great afternoon.

[jasonu]

...It was very interesting to hear about Bren's RG400/Kawasaki100 conversion...

Is that a Kawa 100 or 125 bottom end maybe???

[gatch]

Got to Christchurch Friday, after some difficulty finding our way around the closed off streets, it was great to catch up with Yow Ling and Bren_CHCH for a chat over coffee.

It was very interesting to hear about Bren's RG400/Kawasaki100 conversion and the thinking and inspiration behind it, it should be a very competitive bike. I was most impressed by Yow Lings printing machinery and the accuracy that goes into printing work.

I was asked the hard question "does the plenum actually work" and yes, in its present configuration it does but only makes 20rwhp. The BMEP numbers suggests it has the potential to be much better.

To make more power it needs the inlet duration lengthening by closing the inlet later than the 35 degrees ATDC that it does at present, 60 would be more normal, even more is possible and I believe it could be done, without causing any unusual problems.

Yow Ling made some very sensible and interesting suggestions about how the plenum idea could be improved, I am thinking about how I could incorporate them.

All in all it was a great afternoon.

Do you think it necessary to have the plenum between the carb and the crank case ? Wouldn't a "pressurized" airbox be of benefit, without the risk of 1,5 liters of petrol vapor blowing your leg off..

Not being a naysayer mind you.. Just trying to work through the nuts and bolts of it.

[Buckets4Me]

Do you think it necessary to have the plenum between the carb and the crank case ? Wouldn't a "pressurized" airbox be of benefit, without the risk of 1,5 liters of petrol vapor blowing your leg off..

Not being a naysayer mind you.. Just trying to work through the nuts and bolts of it.

the plenum has more air behind the carb ready for the engine to draw from instead of being choked by the carb. A pressurized air box would help but not as much. you could have both maby

as for it blowing your leg off, how big is the crank case volume and why dosent that blow up ?
why would a plenum be any more likely to go bang ?

[Henk]

I know there has been a fair bit of chat on here lately about forced induction two strokes of one sort or another but the rule book turns it into an interesting diversion and nothing else really.
To whit

All engines must be
normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, which may
be turbo or supercharged.

[Buckets4Me]

I know there has been a fair bit of chat on here lately about forced induction two strokes of one sort or another but the rule book turns it into an interesting diversion and nothing else really.
To whit

All engines must be
normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, which may
be turbo or supercharged.

Plenum is not forced induction

I think thow there is a 100cc 4stroke in the works with a turbo ( but that has to come after everything else. and there is a lot of everything else)

[Yow Ling]

Is that a Kawa 100 or 125 bottom end maybe???

Yea its one of those

[Henk]

Plenum is not forced induction

I think thow there is a 100cc 4stroke in the works with a turbo ( but that has to come after everything else. and there is a lot of everything else)

I know that a plenum is not forced induction but there has been plenty of spirited discusion here lately about turboed kreidlers and the like.

I'm not suprised you guys have plans for a blown 100 either, you seem to have either plans or work in progress on just about every possibility.

[Yow Ling]

I have had a bit of experience with blown motors over the past few weeks, blown FXR, G4 and blew my KC100. I think they are overrated , just seem to be constantly rebuilding them

[Henk]

I know it;s been said before but f*ck you guys are hard on gear down there.

[gatch]

as for it blowing your leg off, how big is the crank case volume and why dosent that blow up ?
why would a plenum be any more likely to go bang ?

Crankcase volume would be at a guess 1.5x (or there-abouts) the cylinder volume ? Plus with the restriction of the carb and whatever valving is sealing the crankcase, I imagine it would be a bad bad day if a crankcase ever popped.

Dunno, this is just me thinking about it, it just seems a bit dodgy having a big chamber full of vaporized fuel quite near to the exhaust. I mean obviously the concept works and it has potential..

Shh, just ignore me.

[TZ350]

........Dunno, this is just me thinking about it, it just seems a bit dodgy having a big chamber full of vaporized fuel...........

Yes at the first look its not a pretty thought, 1.5l of fuel/air mixture would be an explosive problem in a confined space and definitely dodgy but with the blow off valve and the carb there are plenty of places for the ignited gas to escape before it reaches an explosive pressure.

Having seen a few "Pops" I think the plenum is about as dangerous as a small backfire in a 4-strokes muffler, more fun than dangerous............:laugh:

[TZ350]

........the plenum has more air behind the carb ready for the engine to draw from instead of being choked by the carb.............

Thank's Buckets4Me, that's it in a nut shell................ a real simple concept when you think about it.

[Yow Ling]

Another turbo 50 , might struggle round mt wellington but makes 20+ hp

http://buddfab.net/buddfabhomepage.html

[TZ350]

Yow Ling, thanks for the link you sent me, lots of interesting 50's on that one too. http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=98711&st=200

[bucketracer]

A supercharged 1937 DKW and supercharged 1936 water cooled 500cc 2-stroke Scott from Britain.

[gatch]

A supercharged 1937 DKW and supercharged 1936 water cooled 500cc 2-stroke Scott from Britain.

That Scott looks pretty damn cool.

[Yow Ling]

Pretty interesting blog about some guy building his own moto 2 engine , untill they changed the proposed rules to one make engine. He decided to carry on and finish the project anyway

http://moto2-usa.blogspot.com/

[Spearfish]

The chamber your experimenting with is called a boost bottle in other parts of the world.
I know its only a scooter performance parts shop but the one linked below have standard bottles to suite different carbs, with the scooter racing engines the chamber makes a difference with big carbs but not so much with standard sizes.
They change to carbon reeds for more rpm with the benefit of less damage if a reed lets go and little less fogging, possibly because of the quicker time to close.

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/EN/Products/11701000/Boost+bottle+POLINI.aspx

Just for interest sake search for polini big evolution cylinders kits the scooter engines are getting over 33hp out of the 94cc version.
Not so much the cylinder but the pipe and ignition system could be adapted to 2t buckets maybe?

http://www.polini.com/en/page_317.html

[Yow Ling]

Thats pretty interesting Spearfish

Boost bottle POLINI

A Boost Bottle is especially interesting in combination with a larger carburetor. A Boost Bottle makes a leaner mix possible, gets better performance and lower fuel usage. Gets better response from your scoot. Gets rid of annoying jerking at partial load.



Vibrations in gas air mix influence induction through the entire rpm range not just your crankcase capacity. But also the ratio of the mix. If the rpm‘s (with an open carburetor) fall under the rpm‘s when an optimal combustion filling is reached, mix from the crankcase will flow back into the manifold, enriching the backflow mix again. An elegant solution to this problem is installation of a Boost Bottle - connected by hose to the induction pipe. During downward motion of the piston, back. owing mix can run in the Boost Bottle, making sure the back. ow doesn‘t influence the mix. Makes sure the mix ration stays the same throughout the entire rpm range. It‘s efficiency can be regulated by varying the length of the connecting hose.


Its interesting as they use it for the exact opposite reason that TZ350 is working on his, TZ is using it so you can use a smaller carb, where as Polini are promoting it as a cure for an over carbed motor.

TZ note the reference to the triple dipping !

[bucketracer]

TZ note the reference to the triple dipping !

Dad smiled……….


The chamber your experimenting with is called a boost bottle in other parts of the world………… below have standard bottles to suite different carbs, with the scooter racing engines the chamber makes a difference with big carbs but not so much with standard sizes.

Thanks for the tip on the boost bottle and where we can get them.

And ….No….. as Yow ling points out, TeeZee’s idea is not a boost bottle but a plenum in the true sense of the word.

The boost bottle is something else and is something that he thinks could be usefully to add to the inlet tract inside the plenum if there is a recurrence of the mid range blarrrs when he extends the inlet duration.....…….


Its interesting as they use it for the exact opposite reason that TZ350 is working on his, TZ is using it so you can use a smaller carb, where as Polini are promoting it as a cure for an over carbed motor.

Dad and Thomas say, nothing wrong with scooter performance parts or ideas, a lot can be learned from them…………..


I know its only a scooter performance parts shop………..

Lots of good info in your post, and links, we will have a good look through it........thanks.

[Bren_chch]

Dad smiled……….

You'd smile too if you'd seen that movie!

[TZ350]

Hi Bren

"tested at track today, all well. bit slow though :laugh:"

Good to hear your TZR/KE/RG100 special is going well:- http://www.fxr150.co.nz/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=229&p=5302#p5302

Looking forward to some video.........

[Bren_chch]

Hey

Yes, thanks to f5dave for some good advice during my build i seem to have it pretty sorted, its better than i thought it was going to be... and i thought it was going to be great! :woohoo:

hoping to get out again next week and hoping there will be some other buckets testing.

;)

[richban]

Hey

Yes, thanks to f5dave for some good advice during my build i seem to have it pretty sorted, its better than i thought it was going to be... and i thought it was going to be great! :woohoo:

hoping to get out again next week and hoping there will be some other buckets testing.

;)



Does this mean we will see you at Taupo? Would be great to see some more southerners on the track.

[TZ350]

That's, that Girl.....lapped me twice in the F5 race when it rained............

[Henk]

She did quite well today, got a win as well as making you feel inadequate :bleh:

[Dutchee]

hehehe, I don't like her either. She went past me in our last B grade race - I couldn't get past AC3_snow (I think) so she got peeved with me and went past both of us. After that I got past him hehehe but the wets started giving me grief (yeah, psychosomatic, I've been told) and couldn't get past her again lol.
I think her win totally inspired her. I've told her that winning b grade ain't a good thing - it'd mean being kicked into touch (a grade).
I like flagging your races, get to watch the racing, and see the different lines, which is harder in the A grade races, as have to watch the area I'm flagging.
Awesome fun today, but crap weather hehee
Michelle

[F5 Dave]

The chamber your experimenting with is called a boost bottle in other parts of the world.
I know its only a scooter performance parts shop but the one linked below have standard bottles to suite different carbs, with the scooter racing engines the chamber makes a difference with big carbs but not so much with standard sizes.
They change to carbon reeds for more rpm with the benefit of less damage if a reed lets go and little less fogging, possibly because of the quicker time to close.

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/EN/Products/11701000/Boost+bottle+POLINI.aspx

Just for interest sake search for polini big evolution cylinders kits the scooter engines are getting over 33hp out of the 94cc version.
Not so much the cylinder but the pipe and ignition system could be adapted to 2t buckets maybe?

http://www.polini.com/en/page_317.html

Pah! What a load of bollocks (no offense I mean the bolt on goodies merchants website). I love these descriptions of what is supposed to be happening & how it will cure the common cold etc.

Yamaha made these famous in the 80s on their MX bikes. But there is a reason you don't see them on modern high performance bikes. (well infact the RG150 has one, but in the form of a long rubber tube). They are really only useful as a plaster for a badly designed (or rather mismatched) pipe. TSR software will tell you how to design one for the area you are trying to affect.

I made an adjustable one for the H100 (now Sketchys bike). The reason was the pipe I designed had too steep of a baffle cone & it caused a dip before peak power. As it was just a for fun bike & I couldn't weld back then (or worth a damn now), I left the pipe as it was. It curved around so modifying it was a big job.

So on with the bottle of the ~right size & I trimmed the tube to suit. I then made an adjustable bottle & plugged it into the manifold. Worked quite nicely to flatten out the dip, at least a bit.

[kel]

Hi TZ, good catching up with you on the weekend. Here is the link to the Blair 2 stroke programs (plus some other stuff) I was talking about http://www.2stroke-tuning.nl/media/index.php?dir=programmas/pro/ Has anyone spotted a copy of Blairs 2 stroke book on the net? I have Bell, Jennings etc but no Blair.

[Spearfish]

Pah! What a load of bollocks (no offense I mean the bolt on goodies merchants website). I love these descriptions of what is supposed to be happening & how it will cure the common cold etc.

Yamaha made these famous in the 80s on their MX bikes. But there is a reason you don't see them on modern high performance bikes. (well infact the RG150 has one, but in the form of a long rubber tube). They are really only useful as a plaster for a badly designed (or rather mismatched) pipe. TSR software will tell you how to design one for the area you are trying to affect.

I made an adjustable one for the H100 (now Sketchys bike). The reason was the pipe I designed had too steep of a baffle cone & it caused a dip before peak power. As it was just a for fun bike & I couldn't weld back then (or worth a damn now), I left the pipe as it was. It curved around so modifying it was a big job.

So on with the bottle of the ~right size & I trimmed the tube to suit. I then made an adjustable bottle & plugged it into the manifold. Worked quite nicely to flatten out the dip, at least a bit.

Never any offence taken.
Its interesting you say a bottle is just a patch for poorly set up engine, I've seen that mentioned many times and tend to agree.
Maybe one angle to look at it is that all race tuned engines are inherently poorly set up at some point if used for a different application than the job it was tuned for.
2t pipes are an art in themselves and its frustrating how hard they are make fit a bike and produce the power curve where you want it. I would be nice if it only needed to stick straight out of the cylinder without curves.

[F5 Dave]

Yeah I'd only bother on a reed engine of course & if there is a pronounced dip in the power that can't be tuned out with jetting & you can't be arsed changing the pipe.

PS: things I learnt on the way: The bottle of the right size can be hard to find. To calculate size you need to know the carb size, the tube dia & length + the revs you have a problem with. Obviously one somewhere near & adjusting the length of the pipe will get you spot on. Don't use a thin plastic, the inlet vacuum will suck it together. I feel stupid for even trying it.

The first decent test one I made with some metal tube with some endcaps epoxied on. Decided that would fail after a while, but was proof of concept. I measured the volume (c/w tube) with water so I could make another below the same.
I made my adjustable one out of two ~50mm bits of ally tube, had to cut one & weld it back together & resurface it so they were a sliding fit. Then turned a groove for a badly fitting thin o-ring. It seemed to work (if be a bear to adjust) but I wrapped around some inner tube & clamps to be sure.

I had an RZ350 type manifold (with the hole for the balancer pipe) so I mounted it directly above.

[Bert]

maybe 2.5mm plastic pressure pipe & fittings (end caps & step downs) might work? wouldn't be to hard to make series of different sizes/shapes/volumes to dyno test..
the inlet manifold would be the hardest to sort out (like Dave said most Yamaha MX bikes use to have them including later model DTs & DTRs plus the RD,RZ & tzr road series).

[gatch]

Yeah I'd only bother on a reed engine of course & if there is a pronounced dip in the power that can't be tuned out with jetting & you can't be arsed changing the pipe.

PS: things I learnt on the way: The bottle of the right size can be hard to find. To calculate size you need to know the carb size, the tube dia & length + the revs you have a problem with. Obviously one somewhere near & adjusting the length of the pipe will get you spot on. Don't use a thin plastic, the inlet vacuum will suck it together. I feel stupid for even trying it.

The first decent test one I made with some metal tube with some endcaps epoxied on. Decided that would fail after a while, but was proof of concept. I measured the volume (c/w tube) with water so I could make another below the same.
I made my adjustable one out of two ~50mm bits of ally tube, had to cut one & weld it back together & resurface it so they were a sliding fit. Then turned a groove for a badly fitting thin o-ring. It seemed to work (if be a bear to adjust) but I wrapped around some inner tube & clamps to be sure.

I had an RZ350 type manifold (with the hole for the balancer pipe) so I mounted it directly above.

If you wanted one that was adjustable. You could use some pipe like you said, thread the outside of one piece and the inside of another. So to adjust you just screw it up/unscrew etc. Using a 1.5mm pitch, the cut depth is (if memory serves) something like 1.28 mm. So you could use something reasonably thin. 2mm or so. Turn a up a lock nut at the same time so your "bottle" doesn't change in volume during a race.

Or something.

[Buckets4Me]

both these two rider have tested the team E.S.E bikes and show the quality or lack of it up here
remembering this is a wet track and very slipery with both bikes out on slicks



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sorry about the sound and quality of the video (something hapened when i uploaded it ?)

[F5 Dave]

Well that was scintillating. I gave up watching when it started going blurry, what a snore of an intro:bleh:. JC won't be found in a pair of jeans anytime soon huh?


Gatch that is a great idea. . . . except have you ever made large diameter ally into ally threads? It'll seize up like a 60's Bulltaco.

[gatch]

Gatch that is a great idea. . . . except have you ever made large diameter ally into ally threads? It'll seize up like a 60's Bulltaco.

Yes, I put a 1mm pitch thread on the bottom of my ally tacho pod not 2 months ago. I cant remember exactly but it was around 70ish diameter.. Give it an extra few hundredths for luck, then put a little grease on the entire length of the thread.

Smoother than wiping your bum on a silk sheet.

[Buckets4Me]

I hear rumors of a new engine

Thomas and Bucketracer have been hard at work doing huge amounts of over time
wonder what they are up to ?

will it be ready for Taupo or better yet Hampton Downs

will it be supercharged Turboed or something different (a 4 stroke ) ?

maby they put a sidecar together
OR finaly finished that rg50 that was started a year ago

did they sell the aprillia ?