ANZACs and war and stuff

[Katman]

Fascinating, how you can make that leap of... err, what is that, dude, that takes the place of logic in your head, that makes you believe the exact opposite of what's in front of your face?

So rather than seeing yourself as more qualified you find yourself easier led by the official story over and above considering the opinions of those clearly qualified to offer them.

[Ocean1]

Engineers said the fires caused the steel trusses to pull the columns inward in the twin towers.
They said fires caused the trusses to push the columns outward in the WTC7.
This one was interesting as it caused a larger column, buttressed by the rest of the building, to collapse rather than a perimeter column that had no support from the outside.
Is that logical? That it should work against the area of most resistance.

Depends on which side the heat's on. Depends on where and how it's supported.

And yes, they can displace almost as much load as they're capable of supporting, as you'd know if you'd ever tried to weld a cleat to the middle of a RSJ.

But as interesting as that is it's not why I'm lurking. I'm more interested in to what extent this: http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/EP102934.pdf manifests itself in situations where individuals don't have much interest in the outcome of the discussion, other than the mundane need to be proven right.

Seems, on the face of it to be rather a lot.

[Kickaha]

Disentergrated - you writing with an American accent now?

The word vapourised was used to explain the lack of evidence of a plane crashing into the Pentagon.
The plane apparently vapourised.
Even the engines burnt up in the fire.
Get a reality check!

No I was writing with poor spelling, big fucking deal

Lack of evidence?
http://rense.com/general32/phot.htm
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml
Hey look there's even pictures of engine bits and other assorted plane shit, must be planted :yawn:
There's plenty of evidence but because it doesnt back up what you want the story to be you ignore it

[Katman]

......other than the mundane need to be proven right.


A desire for the truth has very little in common with a mundane need to be proven right.

[Ocean1]

So rather than seeing yourself as more qualified you find yourself easier led by the official story over and above considering the opinions of those clearly qualified to offer them.

Are you suggesting the official opinions are less qualified?

Actually, don't bother. I don't know what the real story is, I suspect it's close to the official version but I don't believe the effort required to prove otherwise is worth the doubtful return. It's also likely that the background noise generated by the conspiracy theory industry has made any definitive answer impossible to find.

Perhaps that's the feds, burying any last traces of evidence, eh?

[Katman]

Are you suggesting the official opinions are less qualified?



Well they're certainly not impartial.

[Edbear]

No I was writing with poor spelling, big fucking deal

Lack of evidence?
http://rense.com/general32/phot.htm
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml
Hey look there's even pictures of engine bits and other assorted plane shit, must be planted :yawn:
There's plenty of evidence but because it doesnt back up what you want the story to be you ignore it


Are you suggesting the official opinions are less qualified?

Actually, don't bother. I don't know what the real story is, I suspect it's close to the official version but I don't believe the effort required to prove otherwise is worth the doubtful return. It's also likely that the background noise generated by the conspiracy theory industry has made any definitive answer impossible to find.

Perhaps that's the feds, burying any last traces of evidence, eh?

There are only two members here still posting in support of a conspiracy and they have clearly proven that they are impervious to actual facts and will continue to ignore anything contrary to their pet beliefs. :brick:

Time and again they have proven to be typical of conspiracy theorists and nothing will ever convince them they are wrong. Too much ego and too little brain, I'm afraid. :bye:

[Hinny]

No I was writing with poor spelling, big fucking deal

Lack of evidence?
http://rense.com/general32/phot.htm
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml
Hey look there's even pictures of engine bits and other assorted plane shit, must be planted :yawn:
There's plenty of evidence but because it doesnt back up what you want the story to be you ignore it

Had a quick read of the first link. Some funny stuff there.
I liked this one:

theemployee "was thrown about 80 ft down the hall through the air. As he wastraveling through the air, he says the ceiling was coming down from theconcussion. He got thrown into a closet, the door slammed shut and thefireball went past him," recounts Hahr. "Jet fuel was on him and itirritated his eyes, but he didn't get burned. Then the fireball blew overand the sprinklers came on, and he was able to crawl out of the closet and </pre>get out of the building through the courtyard.".

and

As a Christian, i'm looking forward to the time when the Lord comes to take His own outta here, I believe the Bible points to the fact that it will be prior to the commencement of Armageddon, and probably before the time of the Tribulation. (I sure hope so!) BUT-- my beliefs don't stand in the way of thinking that perhaps there are men in this world who, for whatever motive, would like to hasten events to the Trib/Armageddon period of world history! And of course, God being soveriegn, I'm certain that He often allows men to do things and events to take place that will fit into His timeline and plan...yet most of the time, those mortals aren't even aware they are His tools, or sometimes, even tools of Satan. Then again, I'm not real worried about all of this, as it's all in God's hands anyhow, and I know I'm safe regardless!

[Edbear]

Had a quick read of the first link. Some funny stuff there.
I liked this one:

theemployee "was thrown about 80 ft down the hall through the air. As he wastraveling through the air, he says the ceiling was coming down from theconcussion. He got thrown into a closet, the door slammed shut and thefireball went past him," recounts Hahr. "Jet fuel was on him and itirritated his eyes, but he didn't get burned. Then the fireball blew overand the sprinklers came on, and he was able to crawl out of the closet and </pre>get out of the building through the courtyard.".

and

As a Christian, i'm looking forward to the time when the Lord comes to take His own outta here, I believe the Bible points to the fact that it will be prior to the commencement of Armageddon, and probably before the time of the Tribulation. (I sure hope so!) BUT-- my beliefs don't stand in the way of thinking that perhaps there are men in this world who, for whatever motive, would like to hasten events to the Trib/Armageddon period of world history! And of course, God being soveriegn, I'm certain that He often allows men to do things and events to take place that will fit into His timeline and plan...yet most of the time, those mortals aren't even aware they are His tools, or sometimes, even tools of Satan. Then again, I'm not real worried about all of this, as it's all in God's hands anyhow, and I know I'm safe regardless!


You obviously found a different link somewhere.

[Hinny]

There are only two members here still posting in support of a conspiracy and they have clearly proven that they are impervious to actual facts and will continue to ignore anything contrary to their pet beliefs. :brick:

Time and again they have proven to be typical of conspiracy theorists and nothing will ever convince them they are wrong. Too much ego and too little brain, I'm afraid. :bye:

You're funny.

It seems there are 911 truth organisations for just about every profession there is.

The links I have been reading from yourself and others take up a hell of a lot of time. Simply cherry picking the info you wanted to convey would have been so much more sensible. By posting the whole link you leave yourself open to reinforcing the debate for your opposition as many of the links you have posted refute your argument.
The latest from Kickaha for instance was populated with quotes from unnamed commentators with stories supporting the official line.
It appeared to equally contain comments from people with stories challenging the official line. Many of these identify themselves and their qualifications that give credence, in my book, to the veracity of the truth in their comments.
Pilots with years of experience and ratings on 757 aircraft saying that it would be impossible for the aircraft to have been flown into the building on that trajectory for instance.
Physicists that point out the ground effect would have prevented the aircraft flying so low.
Eye witnesses that saw the aircraft on a different flight path to the 52 degree angle the official tale regales us with.

Photographs of debris littering the front lawn of the Pentagon has been held up by official conspiracy theory supporters as proof there were remnants of an aircraft evidencing the crash of the plane. These surface years later and contradict the photographs in the public domain which show the lawn in the early stages of the drama, before the outer wall had collapsed, with next to no wreckage to be seen.

Despite your assertions Ed, assuming you are tarring me with the conspiracy theorist brush, I have read screeds about the events of Sept.11 since the day it happened.
I have looked at the links you have posted and commented on them. That I found discrepencies with your proffered 'proof' has been studiously ignored by you. Instead you litter the pages with puerile personal abuse.
In my opinion that is an indictment of your judgement and close mindedness.
It is you who has steadfastly refused to answer questions, refused to comment on the specifics of points raised to counter your beliefs in the manner of a closed minded bigot.

You realise that you are fighting the call for an investigation into the truth of the events of 911?

Whenever people change their story when challenged on points of it makes me think they:

don't know the truth,
they don't want to tell the truth,
they are lying.


I think the first scenario may apply to all.
The second scenario may have been exhibited by NIST when they said "We have the results and only we have the results" and "we can't divulge the results as a matter of public safety".
The third appears to be evident on a permanent basis with stories from the White House.
It may be that they consider Big White Lies to be preferable to revealing the truth of some situations.
It may be that the White House has become populated with pathological liars.
The rise of communication has revealed this situation with alarming regularity.
The belief that America is a benevolent hegemon has been destroyed by the truth of their actions worldwide and on a domestic basis as well.
Obama killing his own people, without resort to any form of justice, is illegal and immoral.
The fear I have is that our Govt. will be seduced by the stories emanating from Washington and be dragged into wars of their making.
The rhetoric flowing from Washington regarding Iran and the exercises they are conducting off the coast of Syria with 3 Nimitz class carriers are chilling indicators of the power of the hawks in Washington.
The fact that the intelligence community have repeatedly stated that Iran has no Nuclear weapons programme and d0n't have the capacity to produce a nuclear weapon for years doesn't hold much sway with these hawks. They are classed as a Rogue Nuclear state by the US and this view is promoted through the media.
The encouragement of Israel is the hypocrisy of the situation. That really is a Rogue Nuclear state.

Israel:

3-400 nuclear weapons,
Won't sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty,
Won't allow inspections by IAA inspectors,
Almost constantly attacking its neighbours.


compare this with

Iran:

No nuclear weapons and no nuclear weapons programme.
Has signed the Nuclear non-proliferation treaty
Allows IAA inspections
Hasn't attacked another country in 300 years.


Who should we be aligning ourselves with?

The US, who have been in an almost perpetual state of war for all of its history. (Including wars against its allies)
The Rogue Nuclear state of Israel.

Or should we stay at home and stay out of the affairs of other countries?
Follow the advice of 'The Family Guy'.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-drTpJN2KNQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

[SPman]

It may be that the White House has become populated with pathological liars.

from what comes out of there, I'd go with this one.......

[Hinny]

You obviously found a different link somewhere.

It was the first link!

The 2nd,3rd,5th,6th and 7th links don't work

8 is the same as 1

4 contains dross- including: 'Look closely at the released video and you'll see in the frames pieces of the airliner actually flying over the top of the Pentagon's E-Ring.'

Post 9 is a story from Dick Ewy, saying he was with his daughter and mother in law on a bus tour ... in Chamonix, France!

Do you people actually read the links you post? :wacko:

[Kickaha]

Pilots with years of experience and ratings on 757 aircraft saying that it would be impossible for the aircraft to have been flown into the building on that trajectory for instance.
Physicists that point out the ground effect would have prevented the aircraft flying so low.
Eye witnesses that saw the aircraft on a different flight path to the 52 degree angle the official tale regales us with.



Go the ground effects
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0274.shtml

Interesting what the pilots who tried the simulator said but I guess they'll have to try a real plane just to see that it really is impossible to do

[Edbear]

It was the first link!

The 2nd,3rd,5th,6th and 7th links don't work

8 is the same as 1

4 contains dross- including: 'Look closely at the released video and you'll see in the frames pieces of the airliner actually flying over the top of the Pentagon's E-Ring.'

Post 9 is a story from Dick Ewy, saying he was with his daughter and mother in law on a bus tour ... in Chamonix, France!

Do you people actually read the links you post? :wacko:

Go and click on the first link in your quote, post 1008, it has nothing of the sort in it. You were obviously referring to another link somewhere.

As for the rest, you once again prove me right about you.

[Ocean1]

Well they're certainly not impartial.

Nobody is impartial. As you'd understand if you bothered reading the link I posted.

[Katman]

Nobody is impartial. As you'd understand if you bothered reading the link I posted.

But there's certainly those who stand to gain from a version of a story and those who stand to gain nothing.

I'm more interested in hearing from those who stand to gain nothing.

That's my opinion of impartial - but I'm sure you knew that already.

[Ocean1]

But there's certainly those who stand to gain from a version of a story and those who stand to gain nothing.

I'm more interested in hearing a story from those who stand to gain nothing.

That's my opinion of impartial - but I'm sure you knew that already.

Still haven't read it, have you?

[Katman]

Still haven't read it, have you?

Yeah, I read it - I just don't agree with it.

I certainly didn't have a belief first and then start looking for evidence.

It was exposure to the evidence that led me to start questioning the official story.

[Edbear]

Still haven't read it, have you?

He will never read, or acknowledge if he does read, anything containing facts. He will consistently respond with questionable sites and questions. All you will get from Katman is a deafening silence on actual facts. He is simply not interested in facts.

[Banditbandit]

Are you kidding me? You're all still arguing over this ???

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-get-a-life-3.png

[Edbear]

Are you kidding me? You're all still arguing over this ???

[/IMG]

LOL!!! :brick: :bye:

[Katman]

Are you kidding me? You're all still arguing over this ???



Is it a sense of needing to feel you're a part of something that keeps you coming back?

[Ocean1]

Yeah, I read it - I just don't agree with it.

I certainly didn't have a belief first and then start looking for evidence.

It was exposure to the evidence that led me to start questioning the official story.

Yeah, the single most important aspect of scientific enquiry: look first, then describe, then postulate. Get that wrong and nothing else is worth shit.

One of the problems with your claim that you were disinterested before you saw the evidence is that, like it or not you’re pre-disposed to want to believe some things. And the very first thing that your brain does on seeing such evidence is to start shaping “reality” around what it wants to believe is true. It’s not actually a conscious decision, it’s not under conscious control, it’s not even consciously perceptible unless you're trained to see it happening.

It’s instructive to observe the general belief patterns of individuals and the extent to which they'll go to defend them, including quite literally failing to see contradictory facts.

[Katman]

Yeah, the single most important aspect of scientific enquiry: look first, then describe, then postulate. Get that wrong and nothing else is worth shit.

One of the problems with your claim that you were disinterested before you saw the evidence is that, like it or not you’re pre-disposed to want to believe some things. And the very first thing that your brain does on seeing such evidence is to start shaping “reality” around what it wants to believe is true. It’s not actually a conscious decision, it’s not under conscious control, it’s not even consciously perceptible unless you're trained to see it happening.

It’s instructive to observe the general belief patterns of individuals and the extent to which they'll go to defend them, including quite literally failing to see contradictory facts.

To me, that sounds more like those who believe the official story. They do so because they want to believe it - because to question it is far too scary.

Considering a version other than the official one is not done simply because one wants to belief a different version it's done because one wants to find the truth.

(And besides, I'm somewhat skeptical about those who claim to "know all about brains and how they work").

[Edbear]

In exactly the same way that those who believe the official story do so because they want to believe it.

It's far less scary than questioning the official story.

(And besides, I'm somewhat skeptical about those who claim to "know all about brains and how they work").

And some of us just post the facts that are provable and base their opinions on those. Others completely ignore them and refuse to acknowledge them at all... :yes:

[Katman]

Given your predisposition to believe in fairy tales Ed, your unquestioning support of the official story is hardly surprising.

[Edbear]

Given your predisposition to believe in fairy tales Ed, your unquestioning support of the official story is hardly surprising.

You keep harping on about "the official story". How about simply addressing the facts as presented? Not your strong suit, though is it?

Lets try the direct approach. Do you believe it was a 757 that hit the Pentagon? Or do you believe the conspiracy theorists and their so-called qualified experts that it was a missile?

Do you believe it was passenger planes that hit the towers, or do you believe the conspiracy theorists and their so-called qualified experts that they were military jets?

[Katman]

Lets try the direct approach. Do you believe it was a 757 that hit the Pentagon?

I haven't seen adequate proof of it yet.


Do you believe it was passenger planes that hit the towers, or do you believe the conspiracy theorists and their so-called qualified experts that they were military jets?

I believe planes of some description hit the towers.

[Katman]

Lets try the direct approach.

What are your ideas on this page?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ted-olson-s-report-of-phone-calls-from-barbara-olson-on-9-11-three-official-denials/8514

[Maha]

I believe planes of some description hit the towers.

State the obvious, isn't every plane (or indeed anything else for that matter) ''of some description''?
Even toothpaste is ''of some description''. You need to be more specific, rather than being vague.

[oneofsix]

What are your ideas on this page?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ted-olson-s-report-of-phone-calls-from-barbara-olson-on-9-11-three-official-denials/8514

That it is a load of crap massaged to give credence to a conspiracy theory. But thanks for sharing anyhow as it further shows how you selectively use you reasoning.

[Katman]

That it is a load of crap massaged to give credence to a conspiracy theory. But thanks for sharing anyhow as it further shows how you selectively use you reasoning.

So Ted Olson claims to have had phone conversations with his wife but the FBI claim there were no such conversations and you don't find that odd?

[oneofsix]

So Ted Olson claims to have had phone conversations with his wife but the FBI claim there were no such conversations and you don't find that odd?

This represents the issue I have with all your "evidence"

he evidence presented to this trial by the FBI included a report on phone calls from all four 9/11 flights. In its report on American Flight 77, the FBI report attributed only one call to Barbara Olson and it was an “unconnected call,” which (of course) lasted “0 seconds.”9 According to the FBI, therefore, Ted Olson did not receive a single call from his wife using either a cell phone or an onboard phone.

Now the FBI were checking calls from HER phone, which failed. He reports earlier that the call was collect. The FBI aren't commenting on calls to him but the report implies they are by saying he did not receive a call from his wife when what is really said is no call was made from HER phone to him. Quite reasonable that she used someone else's phone to make a collect call to him.

Off you go now and fish around in the site to find other mis-leading quotes that will allow you to present and alternative arguement :bye:

[Katman]

Now the FBI were checking calls from HER phone, which failed. He reports earlier that the call was collect. The FBI aren't commenting on calls to him but the report implies they are by saying he did not receive a call from his wife when what is really said is no call was made from HER phone to him. Quite reasonable that she used someone else's phone to make a collect call to him.


Yes, there's so much that relies on speculation.

[scumdog]

Thought I'd pop in for another look.:eek5:

Nothing has changed!

But by now I have forgotten what the story was..

Is it that rabid hijackers took control of planes and crashed them into various objects?

Or is there some sort of other interpretation on what happened???

[Edbear]

What are your ideas on this page?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ted-olson-s-report-of-phone-calls-from-barbara-olson-on-9-11-three-official-denials/8514


So Ted Olson claims to have had phone conversations with his wife but the FBI claim there were no such conversations and you don't find that odd?

What is the problem here? Enough physical evidence has been found to prove which plane hit which object. Even tail numbers. Two 767's hit the towers, one 757 hit the Pentagon and another 757 crashed into the ground. All proven by wreckage found and photographed.

Even the claim that the 757 that crashed into the ground somehow had debris spread over many kilometers has been debunked. Though how many here actually looked at that link?

So assuming confusion by Ted Olsen, and you have to assume this link is actually correct being of a conspiracy bent, what changes the above?

You place a lot of weight on these so-called qualified experts who have time and again been shown to be false. How about simply looking at the photographs?

[Katman]

How about simply looking at the photographs?

You mean of the plane actually hitting the Pentagon?

[Edbear]

You mean of the plane actually hitting the Pentagon?

I specifically referred to the wreckage evidence. You are clutching at straws. Look at all the photographs of all the wreckage found at each site. That is conclusive evidence irrefutable.

[MisterD]

Just think of the sheer number of people and amount of organisation required to pull off the hoax that conspiracy theorists claim.

Now, in the light of the recent Ed Snowdon / Guardian hoo-hah over US government snooping, what are the chances that it could be done with nobody "blowing the whistle" on such an elaborate plot?

[Edbear]

Just think of the sheer number of people and amount of organisation required to pull off the hoax that conspiracy theorists claim.

Now, in the light of the recent Ed Snowdon / Guardian hoo-hah over US government snooping, what are the chances that it could be done with nobody "blowing the whistle" on such an elaborate plot?

Careful, you are bringing reason into the argument... :whistle:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Just think of the sheer number of people and amount of organisation required to pull off the hoax that conspiracy theorists claim.

Now, in the light of the recent Ed Snowdon / Guardian hoo-hah over US government snooping, what are the chances that it could be done with nobody "blowing the whistle" on such an elaborate plot?

My thoughts exactly.

[Drew]

Just think of the sheer number of people and amount of organisation required to pull off the hoax that conspiracy theorists claim.

Now, in the light of the recent Ed Snowdon / Guardian hoo-hah over US government snooping, what are the chances that it could be done with nobody "blowing the whistle" on such an elaborate plot?


Careful, you are bringing reason into the argument... :whistle:Again....

I said the exact same thing earlier. But since it's not theoretically impossible, the debate continues.

The whole conspiracy theory, (whatever version), relies on there being not one single honest investigator or journalist pocketing some evidence of foul play, and coming forward. I cannot accept that.

[Edbear]

Again....

I said the exact same thing earlier. But since it's not theoretically impossible, the debate continues.

The whole conspiracy theory, (whatever version), relies on there being not one single honest investigator or journalist pocketing some evidence of foul play, and coming forward. I cannot accept that.

I'm not so sure it isn't theoretically impossible. If you examine what is required for it to be said conspiracy, you would have to conclude it simply could not happen that way.

[oneofsix]

I'm not so sure it isn't theoretically impossible. If you examine what is required for it to be said conspiracy, you would have to conclude it simply could not happen that way.

But isn't that the beauty of these conspiracy theories, you don't take it as a whole and work up a full alternative, you just look for bits that you can make seem like holes in the so called official story and then declare the whole official story a conspiracy.

[Edbear]

But isn't that the beauty of these conspiracy theories, you don't take it as a whole and work up a full alternative, you just look for bits that you can make seem like holes in the so called official story and then declare the whole official story a conspiracy.

Of course! You are quite right... :yes:

[Katman]

Just think of the sheer number of people and amount of organisation required to pull off the hoax that conspiracy theorists claim.

Now, in the light of the recent Ed Snowdon / Guardian hoo-hah over US government snooping, what are the chances that it could be done with nobody "blowing the whistle" on such an elaborate plot?

http://www.ae911truth.org/en/news-section/41-articles/758-faq-12-where-are-the-911-whistleblowers.html

[Maha]

I specifically referred to the wreckage evidence. You are clutching at straws. Look at all the photographs of all the wreckage found at each site. That is conclusive evidence irrefutable.

Katman is very good at the 'copy and paste' stuff, maybe he should post his humorous findings in here -->>http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/109015-Friday-jokes/page140

[Katman]

Katman is very good at the 'copy and paste' stuff,

Well if the information is already out there why would I bother retyping it?

[Drew]

Well if the information is already out there why would I bother retyping it?Might give you some context at least.

[Maha]

Well if the information is already out there why would I bother retyping it?

''Information'' is stretching it a bit don't you think?
The Woman's Weekly (so I am lead to believe) also has a lot information, but only if you choose to believe what you are reading.

[Katman]

''Information'' is stretching it a bit don't you think?
The Woman's Weekly (so I am lead to believe) also has a lot information, but only if you choose to believe what you are reading.

I'm aware of your belief in your MENSA status Mark but are you really telling me you're smarter than all the Engineers, Scientists, Architects, Politicians, Doctors, Lawyers etc who also question the official 911 story?

[Crasherfromwayback]

http://www.ae911truth.org/en/news-section/41-articles/758-faq-12-where-are-the-911-whistleblowers.html

Sorry Steve...that's simply a whole lot of drivel about nothing. Although I'll admit to only reading 2/3 of it. It was putting me to sleep.

[Drew]

Sorry Steve...that's simply a whole lot of drivel about nothing. Although I'll admit to only reading 2/3 of it. It was putting me to sleep.

And ^this^ mofo is so bored he'll read anything right now!

[Katman]

Sorry Steve...that's simply a whole lot of drivel about nothing. Although I'll admit to only reading 2/3 of it. It was putting me to sleep.

No worries Pete.

Unfortunately it's about 2/3rds of the way through it that it gets to the point about 'Who would a whistleblower talk to about it?'

I would suggest that fear is a very effective silencer.

[Maha]

I'm aware of your belief in your MENSA status Mark but are you really telling me you're smarter than all the Engineers, Scientists, Architects, Politicians, Doctors, Lawyers etc who also question the official 911 story?

Engineers, Scientists, Architects, Politicians, Doctors and yes even Lawyers, have their views and opinions, right or wrong.
No I am not telling you I am smarter than any other those professions, I have my own profession and I will add that, neither of those listed, could as a good as job as I a can at it...so the flip side is, they are no smarter than I.
They are just in a different field of employment.

[Edbear]

Engineers, Scientists, Architects, Politicians, Doctors and yes even Lawyers, have their views and opinions, right or wrong.
No I am not telling you I am smarter than any other those professions, I have my own profession and I will add that, neither of those listed, could as a good as job as I a can at it...so the flip side is, they are no smarter than I.
They just in a different field of employment.

As I pointed out, do you believe the qualified experts who claimed a specific type of missile hit the Pentagon or the qualified experts who claimed a 757 did, with photographic evidence confirming it? When so many of the conspiracy theorists experts have been found wanting, would you not be more wary of believing those who support the conspiracy line and more inclined to believe those who have been proven correct?

[Katman]

Engineers, Scientists, Architects, Politicians, Doctors and yes even Lawyers, have their views and opinions, right or wrong.
No I am not telling you I am smarter than any other those professions, I have my own profession and I will add that, neither of those listed, could as a good as job as I a can at it...so the flip side is, they are no smarter than I.
They are just in a different field of employment.

So why would you feel the need to try to appear superior to anyone who holds a different view of 911 to yours?

Does carpet laying give you insights that no-one else is privileged to?

[Edbear]

So why would you feel the need to try to appear superior to anyone who holds a different view of 911 to yours?

Does carpet laying give you insights that no-one else is privileged to?

No one has to try to appear superior, the facts speak for themselves.

[Katman]

When so many of the conspiracy theorists experts have been found wanting, would you not be more wary of believing those who support the conspiracy line and more inclined to believe those who have been proven correct?

They are only proven correct in your own mind Ed because you want to believe they are correct.

[Ocean1]

And besides, I'm somewhat skeptical about those who claim to "know all about brains and how they work".

So, when an expert opinion fits your argument it’s all kosher, but if a complete professional discipline suggests that you don’t actually know what you’re talking about that’s bullshit.

Which is sorta proving their point. Innit?

[Katman]

So, when an expert opinion fits your argument it’s all kosher, but if a complete professional discipline suggests that you don’t actually know what you’re talking about that’s bullshit.

Which is sorta proving their point. Innit?

Not really.

I said I was somewhat skeptical - not that I thought it was bullshit.

Is I said earlier, it's not about wanting to believe an alternative theory (in fact it would be a whole lot more comfortable to blindly accept that no government could do something like this to their own people) but if things don't add up then you can hardly criticise those who want to question those irregularities.

[Edbear]

They are only proven correct in your own mind Ed because you want to believe they are correct.


As I pointed out, do you believe the qualified experts who claimed a specific type of missile hit the Pentagon or the qualified experts who claimed a 757 did, with photographic evidence confirming it? When so many of the conspiracy theorists experts have been found wanting, would you not be more wary of believing those who support the conspiracy line and more inclined to believe those who have been proven correct?

So typical of you, what part of this didn't you get?

When so many of the conspiracy theorists experts have been found wanting

do you believe [B]the qualified experts who claimed a specific type of missile hit the Pentagon or the qualified experts who claimed a 757 did, with photographic evidence confirming it?[/

[Katman]

When so many of the conspiracy theorists experts have been found wanting

I don't think David Ray Griffin or Richard Gage have been found wanting Ed.

You may well claim that they have been found wanting but once again, that's only in your own mind because you want to find them wanting.

[Drew]

that's only in your own mind because you want to find them wanting.

Foul! Statement has already been made by opponent, one point deduction.

[Maha]

So why would you feel the need to try to appear superior to anyone who holds a different view of 911 to yours?

Does carpet laying give you insights that no-one else is privileged to?

Two things....
Did you not take in what I said.. ''No I am not telling you I am smarter than any other those professions/they are no smarter than I''. no mention of trying to appear superior... equal, but on a different level.
...and I am not a carpet layer so I can't speak for them. ;)

[Edbear]

I don't think David Ray Griffin or Richard Gage have been found wanting Ed.

You may well claim that they have been found wanting but once again, that's only in your own mind because you want to find them wanting.

You're nothing if not consistent in being silly.

do you believe [B]the qualified experts who claimed a specific type of missile hit the Pentagon or the qualified experts who claimed a 757 did, with photographic evidence confirming it?[/

None of your posturings alter the facts. The planes that hit the buildings were what have been proven to be. That no explosives were used in any of the buildings. You can now argue all you like. :yes:

[Katman]

Two things....
Did you not take in what I said.. ''No I am not telling you I am smarter than any other those professions/they are no smarter than I''. no mention of trying to appear superior... equal, but on a different level.
...and I am not a carpet layer so I can't speak for them. ;)

So why the Woman's Weekly comment if it wasn't to try looking down your nose at someone else's opinion?

[Drew]

So why the Woman's Weekly comment if it wasn't to try looking down your nose at someone else's opinion?

He's weakening lads, this reads defensive to me!


ATTACK!

[Katman]

You're nothing if not consistent in being silly.

do you believe [B]the qualified experts who claimed a specific type of missile hit the Pentagon or the qualified experts who claimed a 757 did, with photographic evidence confirming it?[/

None of your posturings alter the facts. The planes that hit the buildings were what have been proven to be. That no explosives were used in any of the buildings. You can now argue all you like. :yes:

Like I've already said Ed, I haven't seen a photo of a plane hitting the Pentagon.

I have simply seen three or four photos of a few individual plane pieces.

I haven't seen any proof that they might not have been placed there after the explosion.

You're just believing they came from a plane hitting the Pentagon because you've been told that.

[Maha]

So why the Woman's Weekly comment if it wasn't to try looking down your nose at someone else's opinion?

It was a comparison. A comparison that should have alerted you to the fact that your link and the Woman's Weekly are full of fictional matter and open to interpretation by the reader of.
Going around in circles here Steve, try not to skim read, maybe that rose tint will fade. :brick:

[Drew]

You're just believing they came from a plane hitting the Pentagon because you've been told that.I'm going to award a point for this, leveling things back up to nil all, (I only just started scoring, and there's no way in fuck I'm going back through this cunting thread)!

[Drew]

maybe that rose tint will fade. :brick:Penalty!

Clearly Steve is looking through shit tinted glasses. Sin bin for being silly for you Mr!

[Katman]

It was a comparison. A comparison that should have alerted you to the fact that your link and the Woman's Weekly are full of fictional matter and open to interpretation by the reader of.
Going around in circles here Steve, try not to skim read, maybe that rose tint will fade. :brick:

It's only fictional matter in your own mind Mark because you want to believe it's fictional.

And besides Mark, you may just want to reassess your understanding of the word 'fictional'.

From what Lynne tells me, while the majority of the Woman's Weekly might well be described as mindless pap, very little of it is actual fiction.

[Banditbandit]

I'm going to award a point for this, leveling things back up to nil all, (I only just started scoring, and there's no way in fuck I'm going back through this cunting thread)!

:corn:

(plus 10)

[Kickaha]

You're just believing they came from a plane hitting the Pentagon because you've been told that.

I believe it because of all these people plus some other stuff
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/witnesses/bart.html
Of course they could all be Goverment stooges

[Laava]

From what Lynne tells me, while the majority of the Woman's Weekly might well be described as mindless pap, very little of it is actual fiction.

You know it's bad when it struggles to even be fiction.

[Katman]

I believe it because of all these people plus some other stuff
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/witnesses/bart.html
Of course they could all be Goverment stooges

Well that was quite a read.

Yes, a number of people reported seeing a 757 hit the Pentagon. A number of people reported seeing at sorts of thing. Someone described the plane as a turbo prop another person said it was a commuter jet carrying about 8 - 12 people, others reported seeing no wreckage, others reported smelling cordite.

And what a pity they tailed the plane with a C130 instead of a fighter jet.

And isn't it odd that the C130 would have been allowed to take off when across the whole country every plane was being landed?

[Crasherfromwayback]

I've been here before.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/c8RYt4Za8gs?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Katman]

This is an interesting snippet too.....

Bob Kerrey, the former Nebraska senator who also served as the ranking Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, is appointed to the 9/11 Commission, replacing Max Cleland, who leaves the commission to accept a position on the board of the Export-Import Bank. [Washington Post, 12/10/2003] Just before resigning, Cleland called the Bush administration’s attempts to stonewall and “slow walk” the commission a “national scandal.” He criticized the commission for cutting a deal with the White House that compromised their access to information, and said, “I’m not going to be part of looking at information only partially. I’m not going to be part of just coming to quick conclusions. I’m not going to be part of political pressure to do this or not do that. I’m not going to be part of that. This is serious.”

It's quotes like that that suggest that even the 9/11 Commission was anything but impartial.

[Katman]

And no-one's even brought up yet how bizarre it is that the passport of one of the hijackers that was in the plane that hit the North Tower was found on the street and handed in to police even before the towers collapsed.

[Laava]

And no-one's even brought up yet how bizarre it is that the passport of one of the hijackers that was in the plane that hit the North Tower was found on the street and handed in to police even before the towers collapsed.

How are you going to prove that that happened?
I would put money on you being unable to do so.
5 Drew points.

[Katman]

How are you going to prove that that happened?
I would put money on you being unable to do so.
5 Drew points.

How about like this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satam_al-Suqami

[Kickaha]

And no-one's even brought up yet how bizarre it is that the passport of one of the hijackers that was in the plane that hit the North Tower was found on the street and handed in to police even before the towers collapsed.

bizarre but not impossible, other stuff supposedly survived the crash and was found
http://www.911myths.com/html/passport_recovered.html

[Laava]

How about like this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satam_al-Suqami

Oops...5 points to you then!
TBH I misread as before the plane had impacted the tower.
But I don't see anything unusual in that case. The passport becomes one of the many articles of detritus flying about post collision. Have I missed something?

[Katman]

bizarre but not impossible, other stuff supposedly survived the crash and was found
http://www.911myths.com/html/passport_recovered.html

The only mention in that article of anything else from inside the plane (prior to the building collapse) was the photo of the (unverifiable) seat cushion found two blocks south of the South Tower.

We're being asked to believe that a passport from inside a plane which has completely entered a building (remember it was the first tower hit not the second which had a considerable explosion out to the side) has made it's way down to the ground.

And according to other sources, the only part of Flight 11 (that hit the north face of the North Tower) that was ejected from the building prior to collapse was a part of the nose landing gear. The rest of the plane was supposedly left embedded into the towers core structure.

One has to wonder how many "bizarre but not impossible" occurrences need to be pointed out before people start feeling a twinge of discomfort in believing every aspect of the official story.

[Ocean1]

One has to wonder how many "bizarre but not impossible" occurrences need to be pointed out before people start feeling a twinge of discomfort in believing every aspect of the official story.

Depends. Probably thousands.

How many occurances relevant to the incident fell on that day? Couple of million? Couple of hundred million?

What're the chances every single one of them is going to be routine/mundane?

Isn't that the basis on which conspiracy theories are built? A collection of facts that, standing alone sound like they support a coherent story, but against the uncountable number of related facts are hardly worth mentioning.

And as I suggested earlier, it's easy enough to cherry pick facts to support almost any argument until the story sounds believable, all it takes is to ignore any facts that don't fit the argument.

[Katman]

Depends. Probably thousands.

How many occurances relevant to the incident fell on that day? Couple of million? Couple of hundred million?

What're the chances every single one of them is going to be routine/mundane?



Well it depends on how large those "bizarre but not impossible" occurrences rank in importance.

Like the fact that the very day of the attack an air defense exercise was being conducted that included a scenario very similar to what occurred.

Strangely no fighters were scrambled to deal with wayward air liners though.

Not a very well run exercise by the sounds of it.

[Katman]

And as I suggested earlier, it's easy enough to cherry pick facts to support almost any argument until the story sounds believable, all it takes is to ignore any facts that don't fit the argument.

That could just as easily fit those who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge any evidence that suggests anything contrary to the official story.

[MisterD]

It's quotes like that that suggest that even the 9/11 Commission was anything but impartial.

Yeah, but seriously, which is the more likely scenario. Trying to cover up biggest and most outlandish hoax ever or arse-cover for massive intelligence failings?

[Katman]

Yeah, but seriously, which is the more likely scenario. Trying to cover up biggest and most outlandish hoax ever or arse-cover for massive intelligence failings?

Yeah, "sorry, we forgot to scramble a fighter" is a fairly massive intelligence failing.

One could almost say 'outlandish'.

[MisterD]

Yeah, "sorry, we forgot to scramble a fighter" is a fairly massive intelligence failing.

Number of time prior to 911 that airliners had been used as missiles? Zero.

Plus, I do love the irony of you not understanding what "intelligence" means.

[Katman]

Plus, I do love the irony of you not understanding what "intelligence" means.

My guess is that it's the putting together of 2 plus 2 and getting 4 - instead of 1.5

Sort of like, conducting an exercise in which the potential for a plane to crash into a building was included, then adding the fact that two planes have already crashed into two buildings over half an hour ago and still managing to come up with 1.5

[Ocean1]

That could just as easily fit those who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge any evidence that suggests anything contrary to the official story.

It not only could, it does.

But if you surveyed the people responsible for providing opinion for an official investigation you’d find a high degree of relevant experience and a reputation for reliability in supplying expert opinion. In a survey of those typically pursuing conspiracy theories you'd find a prevalence of people that are into conspiracy theories.

So that rate of importance you mentioned has anyone predisposed to pursue conspiracy theories ranking well down the list of credible opinion compared to even a random selection of opinion, let alone those of a group selected for experience and reliability.

[MisterD]

My guess is that it's the putting together of 2 plus 2 and getting 4 - instead of 1.5

Sort of like, conducting an exercise in which the potential for a plane to crash into a building was included, then adding the fact that two planes have already crashed into two buildings over half an hour ago and still managing to come up with 1.5


Which is a myth. The was an airdefence exercise scenario around hijacking in the planning before 911, but it was only in the planning and there's no evidence that the use of airliners as missiles had been considered. That year's scenario was based on cruise missiles and UAV's.

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/War_Games#Amalgam_Virgo

One of the most interesting things about 911 is that the successful use of airliners in that manner requires that the passengers believe there is some way that they will survive, as soon as they know that there's no chance to get out alive the whole equation changes and Flight 93 was the result.

[Katman]

But if you surveyed the people responsible for providing opinion for an official investigation you’d find a high degree of relevant experience and a reputation for reliability in supplying expert opinion. In a survey of those typically pursuing conspiracy theories you'd find a prevalence of people that are into conspiracy theories.


There are theories from some very highly qualified people that contradict the official story.

And I'd suggest that those people responsible for providing opinion for an official investigation probably wouldn't keep their positions long if their opinion deviated much from that required by TPTB.

[Laava]

That could just as easily fit those who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge any evidence that suggests anything contrary to the official story.

The "unofficial story" is that two plane loads of people were flown into the towers at speed and as a consequence the towers burnt and finally collapsed.
The whole world saw it on tv, live in the case of the second plane, and witnessed by thousands.
Even you must admit that this happened.
There is zero evidence of any "explosives" on any of the footage that I have seen.
I haven't heard a viable alternative to explain what happened.
Can you give us a synopsis of what you think happened and why? Your thoughts, not another link.
So far you seem to be just questioning everything? That is fair enough but then you must have an idea of what you think happened.

[Mom]

That is fair enough but then you must have an idea of what you think happened.

I reckon he should start the thread all about just that. It could be called the Conspiracy Theory or some such.

[Katman]

Can you give us a synopsis of what you think happened and why? Your thoughts, not another link.


Seriously man, if you need everything spelled out to you, the topic's probably beyond you.

There are serious questions of the official story that deserve an independent investigation.

Work the rest out for yourself.

[Trade_nancy]

For goodness sake...how can "conspirators" secretly install the huge quantity of explosives needed to bring these buildings down. Companies that do this professionally spend many months preparing and installing large charges all over the structure..a truckload and some more would be needed.
You think they just crept in one night and dropped a couple of sticks of jelly down back of a dumpster? You think nobody saw them - on any floor - ever? Get real. It didn't happen that way - except in the minds of the gullible influenced by academics with more brains than common-sense - looking for public kudos.

[Katman]

For goodness sake...how can "conspirators" secretly install the huge quantity of explosives needed to bring these buildings down. Companies that do this professionally spend many months preparing and installing large charges all over the structure..a truckload and some more would be needed.
You think they just crept in one night and dropped a couple of sticks of jelly down back of a dumpster? You think nobody saw them - on any floor - ever? Get real. It didn't happen that way - except in the minds of the gullible influenced by academics with more brains than common-sense - looking for public kudos.

You should probably read over the previous 1000 (or so) posts to get a few answers.

Saves us having to do the work for you.

[Drew]

Round we go again, on the circle that is this topic.

Steve, I certainly hope you don't think you are winning this "argument", simply on post count!

[Katman]

Steve, I certainly hope you don't think you are winning this "argument", simply on post count!

Nah, not simply on that.

[Laava]

Seriously man, if you need everything spelled out to you, the topic's probably beyond you.

There are serious questions of the official story that deserve an independent investigation.

Work the rest out for yourself.

No, you misunderstood.
I was asking what YOU think. A topic too difficult for you to answer?

[Katman]

I was asking what YOU think. A topic too difficult for you to answer?

As I've said, an indication of what I think has been covered over the previous 1000 posts.

Stop being fucking lazy and look it up for yourself.

[Ocean1]

There are theories from some very highly qualified people that contradict the official story.

I know. But the number of highly qualified people who have an opinion about what happened is in the hundreds of thousands, at least. Unless you want to carry out that survey I mentioned the fact that some highly qualified people contradict the official story is of little value in supporting anything.


And I'd suggest that those people responsible for providing opinion for an official investigation probably wouldn't keep their positions long if their opinion deviated much from that required by TPTB.

TPTB? That term alone is almost enough to identify someone predisposed to distrust anyone in authority, rationally or otherwise.

As for the theory that expert witnesses had been coached to produce some closed agenda: it's garbage. Such people are selected for their experience and professional integrity, if they were in the habit of saying whatever the client wanted they wouldn't be in business very long. And if you figure "TPTB" had a hidden agenda surely the first place you'd look would be the expert's official brief. Or do you think the details of which all those experts were supposed to have been coached would have been given verbally? What's the chances of any sort of success in orchestrating a conspiracy of such magnitude by word of mouth without huge and obvious internal conflict in the report?

Zero.

[scumdog]

Your thoughts, not another link.


Well he thinks I'm corupt if that's any help.

[Laava]

As I've said, an indication of what I think has been covered over the previous 1000 posts.

Stop being fucking lazy and look it up for yourself.
Thing is tho, you have said so much about so many things You couldn't possibly believe it all or even cobble it together to make a coherent story. So I was interested in what you currently think happened. But don't bother, I've lost interest.

[Laava]

Well he thinks I'm corupt if that's any help.

Oh, cool! I have some indiscretions I need swept under the carpet shall we say. You take donations to the "officers fund"?

[Hinny]

Go the ground effects
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0274.shtml

Interesting what the pilots who tried the simulator said but I guess they'll have to try a real plane just to see that it really is impossible to do

Lots of posts from Pilots saying the aircraft wouldn't allow it to fly that low without landing procedure being activated ie flaps, landing gear, speed etc. The computrs would have taken over.
The height to the engine is reported as ten feet. The fence it flew over was eight feet, Therefore 10 + 8 = 18 feet. The plane should have hit at least 18 feet off the ground. The damage / hole was less than this.
Can this be explained by the plane doing a quick dive once it cleared the fence, cable spools etc so it could hit where it did?
One eyewitness, in one of your links, said the plane hit the ground before the building. Must have been tough grass. Didn't make a ,ark. Oh wait, it can't ne that tough as you can see the tyre marks from the fire engine - all the way to the engineas well. So that would rule out another guys theory about the apparent lack of debris being due to the compressing effects of field of view. Another theory debunked
Also in your links:
One guy said he was a construction worker, standing in one of the trailers and saw the plane crash. How come two of the trailers burnt down, much later, with the fire brigade on site?
How did the fire spread to offices behind the heliport control tower with the fire service on site.
Why were the Pentagon guys running around inside there saving people and finding wreckage etc and the fire service guys were standing around outside?

Maybe their fire service is useless.
Maybe they rescue people as you see them do on that 911 rescue TV show. Generally, I think you would not want them to try....

[Kickaha]

How come two of the trailers burnt down, much later, with the fire brigade on site?

Duh, obviously there was evidence critical to proving it was a conspiracy in the trailer so the Feds torched it

[Hinny]

Go and click on the first link in your quote, post 1008, it has nothing of the sort in it. You were obviously referring to another link somewhere.

As for the rest, you once again prove me right about you.

What the fuck is the matter with you?
Your brain injury is certainly not fixed.
Read the fucking link and you might see what I copied>

[Kickaha]

Lots of posts from Pilots saying the aircraft wouldn't allow it to fly that low without landing procedure being activated ie flaps, landing gear, speed etc. The computrs would have taken over.
The height to the engine is reported as ten feet. The fence it flew over was eight feet, Therefore 10 + 8 = 18 feet. The plane should have hit at least 18 feet off the ground. The damage / hole was less than this.
Can this be explained by the plane doing a quick dive once it cleared the fence, cable spools etc so it could hit where it did?
One eyewitness, in one of your links, said the plane hit the ground before the building. Must have been tough grass. Didn't make a ,ark. Oh wait, it can't ne that tough as you can see the tyre marks from the fire engine - all the way to the engineas well. So that would rule out another guys theory about the apparent lack of debris being due to the compressing effects of field of view. Another theory debunked
Also in your links:
One guy said he was a construction worker, standing in one of the trailers and saw the plane crash. How come two of the trailers burnt down, much later, with the fire brigade on site?
How did the fire spread to offices behind the heliport control tower with the fire service on site.
Why were the Pentagon guys running around inside there saving people and finding wreckage etc and the fire service guys were standing around outside?

Maybe their fire service is useless.
Maybe they rescue people as you see them do on that 911 rescue TV show. Generally, I think you would not want them to try....

Well fuck, all those witnesses that saw a large commercial airliner crash into the Pentagon must be wrong or maybe they've just been paid off by the goverment to spout the offical line

So where's all these post from pilots saying it cant be done although if you do put up a link I'll probably just have to find one with other pilots saying it can be done although it might have just all been cgi http://killtown.blogspot.co.nz/2007/05/why-they-didnt-use-planes-to-hit-wtc.html

Maybe the fire guys had bigger shit to worry about than saving a trailer and offices

[Hinny]

This represents the issue I have with all your "evidence"


Now the FBI were checking calls from HER phone, which failed. He reports earlier that the call was collect. The FBI aren't commenting on calls to him but the report implies they are by saying he did not receive a call from his wife when what is really said is no call was made from HER phone to him. Quite reasonable that she used someone else's phone to make a collect call to him.

Off you go now and fish around in the site to find other mis-leading quotes that will allow you to present and alternative arguement :bye:


Plenty of people claiming that cell phone calls from planes would not have been possible so all that conjecture appears to be a waste of time.
It is known, as I understand it, that the plane in question did not have seat back phones - ergo no calls made from plane.

Need to discount Ed' the debunker who claimed that the plane did have seat back phones as he flew in one of the same type, same airline and it had them and he had a photo to prove it. - it was One year later! Hardly proof.

[Hinny]

Nobody is impartial.

I'm impartial.

[Kickaha]

Plenty of people claiming that cell phone calls from planes would not have been possible so all that conjecture appears to be a waste of time.
It is known, as I understand it, that the plane in question did not have seat back phones - ergo no calls made from plane.

That seems to be debated a bit, but it seems that even if the phone were installed they weren't operational, the phone calls do seem a bit dodgy

[Katman]

That seems to be debated a bit, but it seems that even if the phone were installed they weren't operational, the phone calls do seem a bit dodgy

Well if that ain't enough to start questioning then I don't know what is.

[Hinny]

I believe planes of some description hit the towers.


I don't believe the film footage of the nose of the plane exiting the other side of the building before it had totally entered it.

I don't believe the film footage showing the seemingly intact nose of the plane exiting the other side of the building amid a great shower of breaking glass.

Can anybody explain that?

[Hinny]

...and I am not a carpet layer .... ;)

Carpet muncher?

[Hinny]

I believe it because of all these people plus some other stuff
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/witnesses/bart.html
Of course they could all be Goverment stooges

Perhaps not stooges. Perhaps just the writings of people employed to write such stuff. Much like letters to the ed in Playboy. Used to laugh at the final line was so often "Is this normal?"

Quick glance down your link and we can see this:

"the whole hotel shook," Jeff recalled. "I could feel it moving We said 'Oh, my gosh, what's going on?"

Why no seismic record of it? - ergo - can't be true.

About as dopey as the one you posted about the guy flying 80 feet through the air and looking up at the ceiling and wondering if it was going to fall on him when he landed.

You need to stop toying with us. Posting humour in what is supposed to be a serious thread.
Even with Eds contributions.

[Hinny]

And no-one's even brought up yet how bizarre it is that the passport of one of the hijackers that was in the plane that hit the North Tower was found on the street and handed in to police even before the towers collapsed.

I thought it wass after the towers had collapsed and they went to the address listed in upstate new York and found a list of all the other hijackers and that's how they discovered them so quickly.
Much later they changed the story to Atta left his luggage behind at the airport and they got their info that way. LOL

[Kickaha]

. Posting humour in what is supposed to be a serious thread..

Blame Katman he started it first

[Hinny]

bizarre but not impossible, other stuff supposedly survived the crash and was found
http://www.911myths.com/html/passport_recovered.html

Indicating quite clearly that the fire wasn't very intense. As confirmed by people walking by the floors, firemen and by a woman standing in the whole created.

[Hinny]

How about like this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satam_al-Suqami

Ed should contact Wikipedia and put them right about their assertion that the black boxes weren't found.
Fact he reckons.
A fact you ignored as well.

[Kickaha]

Indicating quite clearly that the fire wasn't very intense. As confirmed by people walking by the floors, firemen and by a woman standing in the whole created.

It only indicates that the fire wasn't intense in the area they were in at that time

[Hinny]

Well it depends on how large those "bizarre but not impossible" occurrences rank in importance.

Like the fact that the very day of the attack an air defense exercise was being conducted that included a scenario very similar to what occurred.

Strangely no fighters were scrambled to deal with wayward air liners though.

Not a very well run exercise by the sounds of it.

That was because:

1. most of them had been sent to Canada and Alaska

2. The engagement rules had been changed and they needed Donald Rumsfeld to ok it and he was incommunicado.

Al Qaieda must be very well connected to know all the things they needed to know. Maybe it really is Al CIAdah.

[Hinny]

It not only could, it does.

But if you surveyed the people responsible for providing opinion for an official investigation you’d find a high degree of relevant experience and a reputation for reliability in supplying expert opinion. In a survey of those typically pursuing conspiracy theories you'd find a prevalence of people that are into conspiracy theories.

So that rate of importance you mentioned has anyone predisposed to pursue conspiracy theories ranking well down the list of credible opinion compared to even a random selection of opinion, let alone those of a group selected for experience and reliability.


To the second part first.
The same applies to believers of the official conspiracy theory. Remembering that the official story is a conspiracy theory as well.
I believe you will find those people believe everything they are told by the media if the media says "Officials say..." or "a spokesman for the...says".
There are skeptics who question and there are those who believe without giving it a second thought.
And there are skeptics who don't question and don't give it a second thought.

From your experience and knowledge are you prepared to accept that damaging one corner of a building like the WTC tower could cause that corner to collapse and the diagonally opposite corner, on the other side of that massive tube of super strength steel columns, collapse at exactly the same time?
See, as a layman I say Bullshit.
As a layman I say if one floor collapsed onto the one below as say in the collapse of the Ak. motorway bridge or the CTV building collapse. The floors didn't explode. The concrete wasn't pulverised. The steel wasn't turned to dust. The Grand Chancellor building - when it came down were there vast pyroclastic clouds of dust?
If you see the video of the demo job gone wrong where a building becomes like a big ball and rolls across the countryside is in my opinion indicative of th3e strength of buildings. This one at 900,000 tons, with half of it falling outside of its footprint - doesn't slow down from go to whoa. The 52 inch by 22 inch by 4 inches thick box section columns -disappear?
Perfectly symmetrical demo field 1200 feet across. Not a building falling sideways, as one would expect because part of one corner got damaged.
They changed the story about how it collapsed because Larry wasn't going to get his insurance money with the first story. I say Bullshit to that as well.

[Hinny]

The "unofficial story" is that two plane loads of people were flown into the towers at speed and as a consequence the towers burnt and finally collapsed.
The whole world saw it on tv, live in the case of the second plane, and witnessed by thousands.
Even you must admit that this happened.
There is zero evidence of any "explosives" on any of the footage that I have seen.
I haven't heard a viable alternative to explain what happened.
Can you give us a synopsis of what you think happened and why? Your thoughts, not another link.
So far you seem to be just questioning everything? That is fair enough but then you must have an idea of what you think happened.

George Bush saw it before it was on TV!
Have you seen the video of the fighter flying in to the WTC tower? Did you believe that? Looked as believable as the first one to me! Didn't get to see it coming out the other side intact though I'm sure they could make it so.

Zero evidence of explosives! - Are your eyes painted on. Or perhaps you can explain the physics involved in the projectile expulsion of four ton steel beams 400 feet? or any of the projectile expulsion of material - the Pyroclastic clouds etc - from what? - the conversion of steel to dust has me bamboozled. The debris field was 1200 feet across. Symmetrical.
I'll have to stop riding my bike at one hundred and twenty five miles an hour because if I hit something the steel might turn to dust.

Some are stating they found nano thermite.

Have you been looking for viable alternatives?
What about the Russian nuclear experts view? Would that theory fly?

From what I have read the 911 truthers are not so much about making up conspiracy theories although I believe there are fourteen favoured ones! You could check them out for a bit of infotainment. The beauty of the connected world. Something they could not have envisaged when this happened. Caught out by technology.
The thing that interests me, and Jessie Ventura has mentioned this on numerous occasions, is the continuing refusal of the Govt. to answer questions. You are not allowed to ask.
The refusal to show their 'evidence' on the grounds of National Security. WHAT ARE THEY AFRAID OF? Are they afraid the society will go into meltdown? Start a civil war? Can't have that - lets go start a war against some brown people somewhere instead.
Demo experts - of which there are reportedly few in the world capable of bringing down buildings this size state unequivocally that in their opinion they were controlled demolitions.

But it all doesn't matter because:
They won't tell the truth.
They have not altered their behaviour one jot. Look at the bullshit emanating from the White house about Syria and Iran.
Another false flag attempt - the alleged use of chemical weapons by the Syrian forces. They had to resile from their "let's roll" attitude as the UN inspectors showed they were used by the insurgents.
They won't stop and with Netanyahu cranking out the rhetoric and crap, which they appear to accept like true believers, they will once more pour fuel on the flames and generate more hatred, murder, misery and suffering.
A yankee friend once expounded on his theory of why Americans don't travel and one reason he said was "the whole world hates us".
Is it any wonder?

[Hinny]

It only indicates that the fire wasn't intense in the area they were in at that time

The towers were 207 feet wide! - approx 62 metres. not much room to hide a fire.
I think the fireman who looked in could not have been more than 20 metres from the fire. Possibly a hell of a lot closer.


and...
You are right - the fire wasn't intense. A fuel rich, diffuse flame fire - estimated temperature 750-800 degrees max.

The account of the first of your Pentagon eye witnesses made me laugh.

'..he felt the blast of the explosion. "It shot me back in my chair. There was a huge blast. I could feel the shock wave of it. I said This isn't right. Something's wrong here."

.... and this guy is a speech writer!

[Crasherfromwayback]

I'll have to stop riding my bike at one hundred and twenty five miles an hour because if I hit something the steel might turn to dust.



Do you weight the same as a fuel laden 767?

[Kickaha]

As a layman I say if one floor collapsed onto the one below as say in the collapse of the Ak. motorway bridge or the CTV building collapse. The floors didn't explode. The concrete wasn't pulverised. The steel wasn't turned to dust.


The steel wasn't turned to dust in the WTC building either

As a layman there seems to be a bit of a size difference in those buildings, perhaps if the CTV building was as tall as the WTC the result may have been different
https://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/911NutPhysics1.HTM


The Grand Chancellor building - when it came down were there vast pyroclastic clouds of dust?
No there wasn't, mainly because it was demolished floor by floor using machinery, second time you've got that wrong, makes me wonder how much else you've fucked up




The account of the first of your Pentagon eye witnesses made me laugh.

'..he felt the blast of the explosion. "It shot me back in my chair. There was a huge blast. I could feel the shock wave of it. I said This isn't right. Something's wrong here."

.... and this guy is a speech writer!

Of course it'd make you laugh because you're not interested in any other explanation than it was a conspiracy and that all these people are in on it

[Laava]

George Bush saw it before it was on TV!
Have you seen the video of the fighter flying in to the WTC tower? Did you believe that? Looked as believable as the first one to me! Didn't get to see it coming out the other side intact though I'm sure they could make it so.

Zero evidence of explosives! - Are your eyes painted on. Or perhaps you can explain the physics involved in the projectile expulsion of four ton steel beams 400 feet? or any of the projectile expulsion of material - the Pyroclastic clouds etc - from what? - the conversion of steel to dust has me bamboozled. The debris field was 1200 feet across. Symmetrical.
I'll have to stop riding my bike at one hundred and twenty five miles an hour because if I hit something the steel might turn to dust.

Some are stating they found nano thermite.

Have you been looking for viable alternatives?
What about the Russian nuclear experts view? Would that theory fly?

From what I have read the 911 truthers are not so much about making up conspiracy theories although I believe there are fourteen favoured ones! You could check them out for a bit of infotainment. The beauty of the connected world. Something they could not have envisaged when this happened. Caught out by technology.
The thing that interests me, and Jessie Ventura has mentioned this on numerous occasions, is the continuing refusal of the Govt. to answer questions. You are not allowed to ask.
The refusal to show their 'evidence' on the grounds of National Security. WHAT ARE THEY AFRAID OF? Are they afraid the society will go into meltdown? Start a civil war? Can't have that - lets go start a war against some brown people somewhere instead.
Demo experts - of which there are reportedly few in the world capable of bringing down buildings this size state unequivocally that in their opinion they were controlled demolitions.

But it all doesn't matter because:
They won't tell the truth.
They have not altered their behaviour one jot. Look at the bullshit emanating from the White house about Syria and Iran.
Another false flag attempt - the alleged use of chemical weapons by the Syrian forces. They had to resile from their "let's roll" attitude as the UN inspectors showed they were used by the insurgents.
They won't stop and with Netanyahu cranking out the rhetoric and crap, which they appear to accept like true believers, they will once more pour fuel on the flames and generate more hatred, murder, misery and suffering.
A yankee friend once expounded on his theory of why Americans don't travel and one reason he said was "the whole world hates us".
Is it any wonder?
You have so much shit in your head you don't know what to think.
You forgot to mention Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, JFKs assasination etc in your little diatribe.

[Katman]

Regarding the collapse of the South Tower, you can see it begins with a collapse at the corner the plane hit.

At that point the whole top section starts to tip over towards that corner.

From a layman's point of view, surely as this was happening, the load bearing down on the opposing corner would have been massively reduced allowing the structure to support it's own weight. A process like that would not be reversible and you would expect the top section to continue toppling out over that south-west corner while the collapse of the north-east corner would stop.

[oneofsix]

Regarding the collapse of the South Tower, you can see it begins with a collapse at the corner the plane hit.

At that point the whole top section starts to tip over towards that corner.

From a layman's point of view, surely as this was happening, the load bearing down on the opposing corner would have been massively reduced allowing the structure to support it's own weight. A process like that would not be reversible and you would expect the top section to continue toppling out over that south-west corner while the collapse of the north-east corner would stop.

What? Have you given up on building 6? Are you losing your touch? I know you already know why the your troll on the south tower doesn't work as it was discussed pages ago but I am sure you will get some real bytes.
Still amuses me that this thread isn't in pink hell.

[Katman]

What? Have you given up on building 6? Are you losing your touch? I know you already know why the your troll on the south tower doesn't work as it was discussed pages ago but I am sure you will get some real bytes.
Still amuses me that this thread isn't in pink hell.

Who has ever mentioned building 6?

I don't think the nature of the South Tower's collapse has been discussed in this thread.

Care to point out where you think it has?

[Katman]

You forgot to mention Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, JFKs assasination etc in your little diatribe.

Don't forget Martin Luther King.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Martin_Luther_King,_Jr.

[Trade_nancy]

You should probably read over the previous 1000 (or so) posts to get a few answers.

Saves us having to do the work for you.

I have - I was trying to end the pain.
PS: New Conspiracy alert for you Katman - the US govt staged the Canterbury earthquake just so the American insurance industry could come back to us this year and put our prices up.

[oneofsix]

Who has ever mentioned building 6?

I don't think the nature of the South Tower's collapse has been discussed in this thread.

Care to point out where you think it has?

:Oops: Seven was it. Shows just how bored I've got with this. As stated the most amusing thing about this thread is that it isn't in pink hell already.

South tower, North tower, seven, BNZ (now State) all constructed the same and that has been discussed.

[oneofsix]

Here is a new one for you http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/8817606/Petition-to-reopen-TWA-Flight-800-probe

[Katman]

South tower, North tower, seven, BNZ (now State) all constructed the same and that has been discussed.

I'm talking about the nature of the collapse of the South Tower - not the nature of it's construction.

[Hinny]

No there wasn't, mainly because it was demolished floor by floor using machinery, second time you've got that wrong, makes me wonder how much else you've fucked up





Of course it'd make you laugh because you're not interested in any other explanation than it was a conspiracy and that all these people are in on it

My bad. I meant Radio Network House.

The reason it made me laugh, and several of the other eye witness accounts is the language that they used.
Some people have differing senses of humour to others I suppose.

Oh, I see another thing I got wrong.
According to USA Today the fire wasn't a cool fire at all. They state it burned at 2000 degrees.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/graphics/news/gra/wtccollapse/flash.htm
I made the mistake of quoting 'experts'.
Obviously the type where 'x' is an unknown quantity and 'spurt' is a drip under pressure.

[GCSB Thought Police]

I'm talking about the nature of the collapse of the South Tower - not the nature of it's construction.

I would advise you, for a second time, to drop this line of enquiry.

[Hinny]

You have so much shit in your head you don't know what to think.
You forgot to mention Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, JFKs assasination etc in your little diatribe.

Is there anything in that post that is not true?

And as you should know the invasion of Vietnam was sold on a lie.
The Pueblo was not captured by the North Vietnamese.
The photographs they showed as proof were not of the ship tied up at a North Vietnamese wharf.

In case you couldn't decide on the veracity of the footage showing the fighter flying into the WTC tower I think it is fairly safe to assume that it was fake.
Much like my take on the footage showing the aircraft coming out the other side of the tower - like through a curtain wall of glass. seemingly undamaged.
Not what you would imagine you would see after it had just gone through two external webs of special super strength steel - 18" wide windows framed by box section columns - Steel like in a tank.
I think that looks fishy and you say it merely shows I'm full of shit ... errm... "that does not compute".

[Katman]

According to USA Today the fire wasn't a cool fire at all. They state it burned at 2000 degrees.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/graphics/news/gra/wtccollapse/flash.htm


Interesting that the animation they show of the South Tower collapse doesn't equate to what the actual video footage of the collapse shows.

The top section actually started to topple out towards the south west corner.

[Hinny]

You have so much shit in your head you don't know what to think.

Oh! and here I was thinking I was a qualified professional gentleman, free of mental illness diving into this hotbed of neurosis and psychosis for a bit of entertainment.
Now I see that I'm getting infotainment. - also getting information concerning my biological plumbing.
The age of enlightenment lives.

[Hinny]

Interesting that the animation they show of the South Tower collapse doesn't equate to what the actual video footage of the collapse shows.

The top section actually started to topple out towards the south west corner.

I posted that to put in the pile with the other debunked theories.
See if nobody had ever questioned the stories surrounding these events we would have never known that was not true.
Shows it is good to have intellectual curiosity.

[Katman]

See if nobody had ever questioned the stories surrounding these events we would have never known that was not true.
Shows it is good to have intellectual curiosity.

And it's shocking just how many people might watch that animation and say "Ah, so that's how it happened".

When in actual fact, it didn't happen like that.

There seems to be such a culture of believing everything one's told via official sources these days - without actually questioning what you're being told.

[mashman]

I have - I was trying to end the pain.
PS: New Conspiracy alert for you Katman - the US govt staged the Canterbury earthquake just so the American insurance industry could come back to us this year and put our prices up.

That has already been covered. You didn't read the entire thread did you :nono:

[superjackal]

Has always been important to me. As a child I attended comemorations as a Girl Guide and then as a player in a Brass Band. Have not missed very many services over the years to be fair. Perhaps when my babies were new, sleep won over from dawn parade. Once they were old enough to appreciate what was going on I took them along.

I still play Last Post every year, a little way I can put something back into my community. Sadly most of the oldies are no longer with us, I have played at a few funerals over the years too.

My continuing involvement stems mostly from a genuine respect for the young men that defended our freedom all those years ago. If you ever get time stop and have a read of small towm war memorials, very sobering indeed. The other thing though is to remember what happened and to make a renewed committment to make sure it never happens again.

I have 3 adult kids. One never misses a dawn parade, one that will attend sometimes and one that doesn't. Each to their own.

We will remember them...

Don't worry - the Greens will save us all!

[Kickaha]

Regarding the collapse of the South Tower, you can see it begins with a collapse at the corner the plane hit.

At that point the whole top section starts to tip over towards that corner.

From a layman's point of view, surely as this was happening, the load bearing down on the opposing corner would have been massively reduced allowing the structure to support it's own weight. A process like that would not be reversible and you would expect the top section to continue toppling out over that south-west corner while the collapse of the north-east corner would stop.

Well apparently all the tall buidings in America are rigged with explosives so in the event of a disaster eg fire, earthquake plane crashing into it they can be bought down in a controlled way and not take out several city blocks when they collapse sideways

I know it's true because I read it on the internet

[Katman]

Well apparently all the tall buidings in America are rigged with explosives so in the event of a disaster eg fire, earthquake plane crashing into it they can be bought down in a controlled way and not take out several city blocks when they collapse sideways

I know it's true because I read it on the internet

Well who would have ever imagined that three buildings could come down in such a controlled manner if not for some external help.

You'd have to be crazy. :wacko:

[Kickaha]

Well who would have ever imagined that three buildings could come down in such a controlled manner if not for some external help.

The problem is there hasn't really ever been an event like this before or likely to be in the future so there's nothing to compare it to

[Katman]

The problem is there hasn't really ever been an event like this before or likely to be in the future so there's nothing to compare it to

Thank goodness for those constant Laws of Physics.

[Banditbandit]

Thank goodness for SILLY HATS

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m619nhQbYA1qc4xw5o1_500.jpg

[oneofsix]

Thank goodness for those constant Laws of Physics.

yeap, and one day people might even fully understand them

[Katman]

yeap, and one day people might even fully understand them

Yes, even a high school Physics teacher was able to teach NIST something.

[Banditbandit]

I googled Katman and silly hats .. and got this ... (it's Japanese - only the Katanana is missing )

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9nKbRW8wVKk/TCTES6QfybI/AAAAAAAAAP8/4OgO-kXH3Kk/s1600/Japanese+Cat+Costumes+1.jpg

[Hinny]

Interesting that the animation they show of the South Tower collapse doesn't equate to what the actual video footage of the collapse shows.

The top section actually started to topple out towards the south west corner.

Interesting the collapse started on floors above those impacted by the plane.
Interesting the upper floors remained intact for as long as they did after colliding with the floors below. They must have been built stronger. p/t
Interesting that one believer site calculated the volume of air that needed to be displaced by the falling floor above. This they reasoned was the cause of the pulverisation of the concrete floor. The air couldn't escape.
I would have thought it would act like big shock absorber. The large hole would have been a path of least resistance for the escaping air and so the shock absorption component would not have been so effective in that area and the tower should have toppled over the damage. Particularly so given the redundancy built into the structural columns. That part should have held up.

[Hinny]

So... nobody wants to discuss current stuff. Only want to argue about historical occurrences.
For those that argue that the destruction of the twin towers was not a false flag operation do they think that all other alleged false flag ops. were fantasies as well?
The allegation be the US that Syria used chemical weapons could be one for them to argue. The UN inspectors seemed fairly adamant that the use was by insurgents not govt. troops.

The US designated axis of evil has lost one member - To the dark side it may be argued since it is far more dangerous in Iraq now than it was before.
Despite intelligence estimates from US agencies to the contrary the line that Iran has a nuclear weapons programme, and needs to be dealt to, fills our media.
It is beyond reason to believe that we are alone in being bombarded with this rhetoric which largely seems to emanate from the USA and Israel. (Birds of a feather?)
To me this is absurd but does it mean that the NZ govt. would be reticent to commit troops to an invasion of Iran should the US and Britain decide to invade?

What commitment should we have to supporting the actions of the govt. of Israel?
The US commitment is immense.
One of the qualities the Obama administration listed for Susan Rice was her commitment to Israel.
Is it likely that because John Key has Jewish heritage that he is also a Zionist?
Are the claims he is a US puppet justifiable?

Do we need any more killing?
Surely if the bomb is the great peacemaker its supporters profess then giving the bomb to Iran and Syria might be the best thing for the middle east.

Any thoughts people?

[Virago]

http://swirlsipsnark.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/tin-foil-hat.jpg

[oneofsix]

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/6767062016/h1B4408E0/

[Akzle]

jews i tells ya.

[oneofsix]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcST80w2FJDJAvlrCvvUC_SN6045fUB8_ 0HWlwusXZNNKm8gqYv1

[scumdog]

jews i tells ya.

Orange jews??

[Hinny]

Well he thinks I'm corupt if that's any help.

That's one way of explaining how you can afford to live in The Riviera of the South.

[scumdog]

That's one way of explaining how you can afford to live in The Riviera of the South.

Wrong!

I can only afford to live in The Riviera of the South - everywhere else is beyond my means - even Waitangarua...;)

[Laava]

So... nobody wants to discuss current stuff. Only want to argue about historical occurrences.
For those that argue that the destruction of the twin towers was not a false flag operation do they think that all other alleged false flag ops. were fantasies as well?
The allegation be the US that Syria used chemical weapons could be one for them to argue. The UN inspectors seemed fairly adamant that the use was by insurgents not govt. troops.

The US designated axis of evil has lost one member - To the dark side it may be argued since it is far more dangerous in Iraq now than it was before.
Despite intelligence estimates from US agencies to the contrary the line that Iran has a nuclear weapons programme, and needs to be dealt to, fills our media.
It is beyond reason to believe that we are alone in being bombarded with this rhetoric which largely seems to emanate from the USA and Israel. (Birds of a feather?)
To me this is absurd but does it mean that the NZ govt. would be reticent to commit troops to an invasion of Iran should the US and Britain decide to invade?

What commitment should we have to supporting the actions of the govt. of Israel?
The US commitment is immense.
One of the qualities the Obama administration listed for Susan Rice was her commitment to Israel.
Is it likely that because John Key has Jewish heritage that he is also a Zionist?
Are the claims he is a US puppet justifiable?

Do we need any more killing?
Surely if the bomb is the great peacemaker its supporters profess then giving the bomb to Iran and Syria might be the best thing for the middle east.

Any thoughts people?

See, I don't believe that 911 and all the US led "occupations" or whatever you like to call them are necessarily tied in together in a big ball of lies.
However I do know that the US have been proved to lie about their statements of proof regarding Iraqs WOMD. Which makes me a bit nervous that we get dragged into their sandpit to battle their perceived enemy. Generally it will be because the US have something to gain IMO.
I would rather see the US do it by themselves. Soon enough they will get the bloody nose they deserve. Obviously many innocents will suffer as a result but that will happen anyway. Once they pull their heads in a bit they will be less of a target for terrorists. Seems a very simplistic overview I know but all the previous attacks on the US have happened for a reason. Namely that they are butting in where they are not wanted.

[Hinny]

See, I don't believe that 911 and all the US led "occupations" or whatever you like to call them are necessarily tied in together in a big ball of lies.
However I do know that the US have been proved to lie about their statements of proof regarding Iraqs WOMD. Which makes me a bit nervous that we get dragged into their sandpit to battle their perceived enemy. Generally it will be because the US have something to gain IMO.
I would rather see the US do it by themselves. Soon enough they will get the bloody nose they deserve. Obviously many innocents will suffer as a result but that will happen anyway. Once they pull their heads in a bit they will be less of a target for terrorists. Seems a very simplistic overview I know but all the previous attacks on the US have happened for a reason. Namely that they are butting in where they are not wanted.

Simplistic overview? - Satisfies Occams Razor.

The tie in of 911 and the invasion of Afghanistan.
G.W. Bush gave the Taliban 48 hours to hand over Osama bin Laden. The alleged mastermind of the 911 attacks.
The Taliban replied "Yes they would if America could provide some proof that ObL was in any way implicated."
Seemed fair enough to me. The US responded with bombs. They had no proof and that is the situation today.

When they started talking about invading Iraq after that Russell Brown described their reasoning as "Dopey". That comment still stands as being on the money.
The rhetoric flying around that the US should supply arms to the Syrian insurgents because 'the West is losing' is similarly dopey.

Certainly US / Nato actions have resulted in an explosion of people with an axe to grind and the world is becoming more and more dangerous as a result .
The opposite outcomes to the desired.

Much like their 'War on Drugs'.
All that did was lead to an explosion in the use of drugs worldwide.
Some may argue that their truly desired outcome has been achieved. Their hidden agenda.
The Taliban had a strong anti-drug focus, destroyed Poppy fields, burned seized Opium and attacked the Drug/Warlords.
Their overthrow has resulted in an explosion of the supply of opiates.
Once again the rest of the world pay the piper.

[Hinny]

Wrong!

I can only afford to live in The Riviera of the South - everywhere else is beyond my means - even Waitangarua...;)

I believe you meant Waitangirua - where the diverse multi-racial nature makes for a colourful community dominated by a vibrant and exuberant youth culture.
This could be just the community you need to embrace your vision and ideals.
Being the colourful, vibrant, exuberant character that you are, you could be a valuable community asset.
You had better start saving.

[Banditbandit]

Wrong!

I can only afford to live in The Riviera of the South - everywhere else is beyond my means - even Waitangarua...;)

Waitangirua where 50% or more of the population is on the benefit ??? Shit - surely they pay popo enough to be able to live there ... or next thing you'll tell me you have to sleep in the cells ...

[Hinny]

Waitangirua where 50% or more of the population is on the benefit ??? Shit - surely they pay popo enough to be able to live there ... or next thing you'll tell me you have to sleep in the cells ...

Scummy seems to be of the opinion Katman thinks that's where he should be.

[Katman]

For Ed.




http://youtu.be/5PY_qM28rnA





.

[Hinny]

For Ed.






.
and oscar and carbonhed

[scumdog]

For Ed.
.

Meh, foil hat wearers propoganda...well the twin towers part is.:wacko:

[Oscar]

Meh, foil hat wearers propoganda...well the twin towers part is.:wacko:

They're like a fucking rash.
A stupid fucking rash all over the net.

[ellipsis]

They're like a fucking rash.
A stupid fucking rash all over the net.

...like the herpes simplex virus, but it's not stupid...it's a cunt of a thing...

[Akzle]

...like the herpes simplex virus, but it's not stupid...it's a cunt of a thing...

ahh. So it was YOU i met in hamilton that one time...