ANZACs and war and stuff

[Edbear]

Thoughts? There seems to be more made of ANZAC Day in the last couple of years, as though it is becoming more relevant today than in past years.

Why do you think this is? Is the world becoming more averse to the rising violence and International tensions? The message coming across is that we need to remember and learn from our past and not to revisit it again. Not to see those fallen as falling in vain and to highlight the futility of war.

It has been noticeable in questionnaires over recent years that more and more people would register as Conscientious Objectors if called up for service and this crosses all areas of society, not just your traditional pacifists. It seems to be part of the rise of the "common people" to not be ruled by TPTB and simply told what to do.

Conversely, there is still a keen interest in joining or otherwise supporting the armed forces for the vocational training and discipline they provide and for national pride.

Do you think ANZAC Day is still relevant, do you support it and what are your attitudes to war today? I would put up a poll, but that wouldn't help so much as letting people say what they think.

[mashman]

I haven't noticed. Perhaps you're looking for it more given the research attached to your beliefs?

As for war in general. I would sign up only to defend NZ from invaders but not to slaughter people to gain access to their resources for the privileged few. Other than that, War, HUH, what is it good for... absolutely nothing yuwaw

[Mom]

Has always been important to me. As a child I attended comemorations as a Girl Guide and then as a player in a Brass Band. Have not missed very many services over the years to be fair. Perhaps when my babies were new, sleep won over from dawn parade. Once they were old enough to appreciate what was going on I took them along.

I still play Last Post every year, a little way I can put something back into my community. Sadly most of the oldies are no longer with us, I have played at a few funerals over the years too.

My continuing involvement stems mostly from a genuine respect for the young men that defended our freedom all those years ago. If you ever get time stop and have a read of small towm war memorials, very sobering indeed. The other thing though is to remember what happened and to make a renewed committment to make sure it never happens again.

I have 3 adult kids. One never misses a dawn parade, one that will attend sometimes and one that doesn't. Each to their own.

We will remember them...

[Hitcher]

The generations who were involved in the major conflicts of WWI and WWII came home and wanted to forget.

The generation who volunteered to serve in Vietnam came home and hid from all of the opinionated peaceniks who gave them shit.

With the passing of time and the invention of the Discovery Channel, people get a better understanding of history, what was at stake, and what New Zealanders contributed, whether engaged in active combat duties or keeping a wartime economy running at home.

[Flip]

Just had a call from the RSA asking if I could pick up a few oldies in my landrover and take them to the service. I was just going to give a hand with the local 25 lb-er but I am now driving the taxi.

[awa355]

One of the 1st World war poems. Written by Moina Michael as a tribute to the poem " In Flanders Fields" by John McCrae in 1915.

281900

[Laava]

I went to Anzac Cove and Galipolli and Galibolu over a couple of days and have to say it was an eye opener. It is a very significant event for the Turks, I guess because it is in their country, and they have made a small tourist industry based around that. They love having you there and I found them both friendly and hospitable. I don,t celebrate Anzac day as such but like having the day off cos I,m a lazy cunt!

[Edbear]

The generations who were involved in the major conflicts of WWI and WWII came home and wanted to forget.

The generation who volunteered to serve in Vietnam came home and hid from all of the opinionated peaceniks who gave them shit.

With the passing of time and the invention of the Discovery Channel, people get a better understanding of history, what was at stake, and what New Zealanders contributed, whether engaged in active combat duties or keeping a wartime economy running at home.

It is interesting in interviews with family members how often it comes up that the returning soldiers did not want to talk about it and never talked until the day they died.

First hand accounts from participants always stresses the horror and futility of the war, the questioning of why. They talk about the often shambolic direction of Command. The war movies emphasise the heroism, the powerful leaders and Generals, the cause of defending freedom against invaders intent on taking that freedom away.

I listened to an interview on National Radio today with the daughter of a WW1 soldier who was decorated for bravery, who then became a pacifist and was imprisoned during WW2, as a conscientious objector and treated very badly.

She never got her father to tell her his story and he took it to his grave. Has anyone here been able to hear first hand stories from fathers, grandfathers or grandmothers about their experiences and how it affected them?

[duckonin]

She never got her father to tell her his story and he took it to his grave. Has anyone here been able to hear first hand stories from fathers, grandfathers or grandmothers about their experiences and how it affected them?

During life Edbear some like to forget the hard/sad parts. But then we have cunts like you always wanting to revist shit times to satisfy your curiosity.

[Edbear]

During life Edbear some like to forget the hard/sad parts. But then we have cunts like you always wanting to revist shit times to satisfy your curiosity.

It isn't me promoting ANZAC day and making it prominent in the media, doing radio interviews and publicising the Dawn Parade encouraging everyone to attend and buy Poppies. Why don't you stand up and go public with your comments, say, to the RSA, or TV1...

You are being a disingenuous idiot, stop it!

[idb]

It's funny, my older head knows that most of them went off for adventure and such but in my heart I still have the vision of them signing up and dying for a "higher ideal".
I suppose that's the effect of propaganda on a young mind but I still like to give the heart some free rope on ANZAC Day.

[Motu]

It is interesting in interviews with family members how often it comes up that the returning soldiers did not want to talk about it and never talked until the day they died.


As a Baby Boomer, the previous generation didn't want to talk about the war, but it was glorified in movies and comics (War Comics!) It was just a thing in the past, the country was recovering from the war effort, we knew about the wars but it was no big thing, Anzac Day had no real relevance to me, just a holiday.

One of my Grandfathers was a conshie - he was sent white feathers in the mail and stuff. He was a quiet man who thought deep and had principals, one of my uncles fought in the war, there was no bad feelings between them at all.

I think that Anzac Day becoming more important is part of the handwringing and grief that young people seem to revel in when someone they know dies - shrines and RIP signs on cars and stuff....I find this all a bit melodramatic. In the '70's I had friends dying in bike and car crashes, dying from drug overdoses - maybe I'm a heartless bastard, but they died, that's tough, but lets just on with life.

[FJRider]

It's funny, my older head knows that most of them went off for adventure and such but in my heart I still have the vision of them signing up and dying for a "higher ideal".
I suppose that's the effect of propaganda on a young mind but I still like to give the heart some free rope on ANZAC Day.

For most .. dying was not something that was thought of. They saw it all as a big adventure ... and a chance to travel. Something very few of them could do had there been no war.

"It wont happen to me" was the usual remark .... and as well as ... "It will be all over by Christmas" ...

[idb]

For most .. dying was not something that was thought of. They saw it all as a big adventure ... and a chance to travel. Something very few of them could do had there been no war.

"It wont happen to me" was the usual remark .... and as well as ... "It will be all over by Christmas" ...

...as well as, "Winston knows what he's doing".

[Berries]

Not really a fan of the biscuits.

[Hitcher]

For most .. dying was not something that was thought of.

They would have thought about it OK. Everybody thinks about death, we prefer to dwell on more positive thoughts. Soldiers are no different. The WWII guys particularly would have known what happened in Belgium in WWI.

[Edbear]

For most .. dying was not something that was thought of. They saw it all as a big adventure ... and a chance to travel. Something very few of them could do had there been no war.

"It wont happen to me" was the usual remark .... and as well as ... "It will be all over by Christmas" ...

Yup. It was advertised as glorious and exciting. Not mentioning the mud and the exposed fields and beaches, the exhaustion and horror of getting body parts blown off, dysentery, the noise and fear.

Disillusionment seems to be the predominant feeling of returnees.

Does everyone feel the current promotion of ANZAC day will have the desired effect on how people look forward? How do you balance an aversion to war with respect for those who went and do you believe it was worth it?

[Edbear]

They would have thought about it OK. Everybody thinks about death, we prefer to dwell on more positive thoughts. Soldiers are no different. The WWII guys particularly would have known what happened in Belgium in WWI.

People were more realistic in WW2, sort of "here we go again" with those survivors of WW1 under no illusions.

It appears that WW2 made the whole world more circumspect about war and we have seen strenuous efforts since to avoid escalating conflict to involve more nations.

Witness the lengths the US and Sth Korea and China have gone to make sure Nth Korea doesn't cause international conflict. Governments are fully aware of MAD and are desperate to avoid risking that.

[FJRider]

Yup. It was advertised as glorious and exciting. Not mentioning the mud and the exposed fields and beaches, the exhaustion and horror of getting body parts blown off, dysentery, the noise and fear.

They wouldn't have found out about that until they saw it for themselves.


Disillusionment seems to be the predominant feeling of returnees.

The usual feeling of returning soldiers from any war.


Does everyone feel the current promotion of ANZAC day will have the desired effect on how people look forward? How do you balance an aversion to war with respect for those who went and do you believe it was worth it?

The desired effect is the belief it can't happen again.

A silly thing to believe eh .. !!!

[MadDuck]

Has anyone here been able to hear first hand stories from fathers, grandfathers or grandmothers about their experiences and how it affected them?

Yes I remember sitting on my Grandfathers knee and hearing the stories. He came back a very bitter man after WW2. He resented the church and all they had while people starved in the streets. He was based in Italy and Egypt.

I also witnessed my Uncle on his return from Vietnam as a medic. Not much I can say to describe the difference I saw in him.

[Smifffy]

Grandad might not have wanted to talk about it much with his family, but every ANZAC day he'd go and get on the lash at the RSA with his old comrades, and those that still serve and they would all talk up a storm.

There may be less of them left, but that's even more reason to honour them.

If you were really interested, you could wander down to your local cenotaph tomorrow, and ask around there. Let us know how you get on.

[Edbear]

Yes I remember sitting on my Grandfathers knee and hearing the stories. He came back a very bitter man after WW2. He resented the church and all they had while people starved in the streets. He was based in Italy and Egypt.

I also witnessed my Uncle on his return from Vietnam as a medic. Not much I can say to describe the difference I saw in him.

Many witnessed the hypocrisy of the churches during the wars. My father-in-law hated religion after WW2. He was a mechanic in the Pacific. Mother-in-law was a nurse in England but never spoke of it much.

Your Uncle would have seen horrors!

[MadDuck]

Grandad might not have wanted to talk about it much with his family, but every ANZAC day he'd go and get on the lash at the RSA with his old comrades, and those that still serve and they would all talk up a storm.

That was the hardest thing for me in his later years. My Granddad was Merchant Navy and was not allowed to join the RSA. All he wanted was to have a 'lash' with comrades and those that were there.

[Mom]

Grandad might not have wanted to talk about it much with his family, but every ANZAC day he'd go and get on the lash at the RSA with his old comrades.

And this is probably why I still play Last Post...

The "old" guys share so much when they have had a few. They still dont tell all, but they will share a few funny stories.

When I get asked why I play Last Post my standard answer is "I Love making old men cry". And I do. And it is important they do.

[Hitcher]

The RSA hasn't always been an organisation to be proud of. In some cases just a bunch of grumpy old farts keen to hang onto the rank and privileges structures they found in the military. They certainly didn't go out of their way to do anything to acknowledge my Grandpa in his last days. So what if he survived Chunuk Bair.

Some of the bravest folks in the war were merchant navy sailors. Good grief, they were the ones getting shot at in the Atlantic convoys, not to mention on that return trip from the UK to Murmansk (all going well).

There were lots of incredibly brave civilians in WWII. We shouldn't forget them tomorrow either.

[Edbear]

I made the comment earlier that more people nowadays would register as CO's if called up. How do you feel? Would you join up or refuse?

Of course it may be a different political scene these days but I'd be interested in views in this, too.

[PrincessBandit]

Saw the item on Seven Sharp tonight - interviews with four trumpeters/buglers who play at the various Anzac Parades. A real cross section of the community and all very proud to perform for it.

I always get a lump in my throat when I hear it, including at our assembly at school last week (since Anzac Day falls in the holidays).

My grandad never talked about the war either - nanna said he only ever wanted to forget the experience (although his diary, which is in our family) makes for fascinating reading showing the monotony of day to day life on the boat over, drills they had to perform etc. The horror of what he witnessed was touched on briefly, and as far as I know was limited to the diary, never discussed at home.

Well done Mom for still playing. I thought of you tonight while watching the article on tv.

[MadDuck]

I made the comment earlier that more people nowadays would register as CO's if called up. How do you feel? Would you join up or refuse?

Of course it may be a different political scene these days but I'd be interested in views in this, too.

You really are very good at the trolling thing. I nearly bit. See you at Silverdale RSA 5.45am tomorrow.

[Edbear]

You really are very good at the trolling thing. I nearly bit. See you at Silverdale RSA 5.45am tomorrow.

Ha ha, no I genuinely am interested to see if and how attitudes have changed over the years. Not trolling this time, honest.

[The Reibz]

7 years Navy and still serving. Been attending dawn services since I could walk. Used to march with the grandfather every year.
Biggest day of the year in the service and it isn't just commemorating WW1 vets. ITS FOR ALL SERVICEMEN AND WOMEN

[Virago]

I made the comment earlier that more people nowadays would register as CO's if called up. How do you feel? Would you join up or refuse?

Of course it may be a different political scene these days but I'd be interested in views in this, too.

It's disappointing, but not particularly surprising, that you would use Anzac Day commemorations to slide JW doctrines under the door.

[Winston001]

I haven't noticed. Perhaps you're looking for it more given the research attached to your beliefs?

As for war in general. I would sign up only to defend NZ from invaders but not to slaughter people to gain access to their resources for the privileged few. Other than that, War, HUH, what is it good for... absolutely nothing yuwaw

Mashie you mean well but your British ancestors bled and drowned to prevent the Germans from invading Britain. The rescue of the First British Expeditionary Force at Dunkirk with tiny boats from England stands out as one of the bravest public actions in modern warfare. Ordinary people. Please read The Snow Goose by Paul Gallico and tell me you don't have tears. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Snow_Goose:_A_Story_of_Dunkirk

Again, Operation Overlord in 1944 was a vastly brave offence against the Wehrmacht fought mainly by small ungainly Brits who triumphed against the machine guns of the Atlantic Wall. I saw an interview with one soldier who marvelled at how they overcame the German soldiers who were so much bigger and teutonic than the English.

In another time and place these Germans would be our allies so on ANZAC Day we remember them too.

[mashman]

Mashie you mean well but your British ancestors bled and drowned to prevent the Germans from invading Britain. The rescue of the First British Expeditionary Force at Dunkirk with tiny boats from England stands out as one of the bravest public actions in modern warfare. Ordinary people. Please read The Snow Goose by Paul Gallico and tell me you don't have tears. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Snow_Goose:_A_Story_of_Dunkirk

Again, Operation Overlord in 1944 was a vastly brave offence against the Wehrmacht fought mainly by small ungainly Brits who triumphed against the machine guns of the Atlantic Wall. I saw an interview with one soldier who marvelled at how they overcame the German soldiers who were so much bigger and teutonic than the English.

In another time and place these Germans would be our allies so on ANZAC Day we remember them too.


:rofl: cheers for the placation Paw. I've seen the damage that war has done first hand thanks. I still cry tears from that mini experience whenever I think about it. I can still remember the names of the 5 kids that I played with in the snow. I remember feeling like an absolute fraud when handing out welly's and a teddy to shoeless kids in the ice outside of the cow shed 11 of them were living in. The entire journey was an eye opener. But yeah, I mean well.

[Maha]

It's disappointing, but not particularly surprising, that you would use Anzac Day commemorations to slide JW doctrines under the door.

How did you conclude that from what Ed wrote? :corn:

A dawn service to me, means the same as any other dawn service, a bowl of cereal followed by nice cup of tea at around 6:30am.
Wars happen, and if you're are in the army and are called up to attend one (here and there) it's your job.
ANZAC Day is different, whereas, there were those were NOT in the army at the time of WW1 but were drafted anyway...they are the real heros and always have been, for 100 years now.

ANZAC Day is a moment in times past, where Kiwis/Australians (and the Turks to certain degree) can commemorate those that died at Gallipoli.

[Pussy]

Just as well that not everyone is a soft cock like you, ed. You wouldn't have the freedom to write the crap you do, and you wouldn't be driving a Japanese car by choice....

[Karl08]

My Grandfather fought in the Solomon Islands, and a great uncle flew in the Battle of Britain.

Neither talked of the glory of war, and they never attended commemoration services (which is not to say that they didn't remember or grieve their comrades).

I am sitting here looking at two photo's of my grandfather- one was taking before he shipped out; he is smiling with his cobbers, looking fresh faced and expectant. The second was taken after a few months in the Solomons- he has the look of a much older man who has been through experiences that I can't even begin to imagine. There was no glory in war for him, he came back a tougher, harder and more volatile man.

Although he spoke fondly of knocking seven shades of shit out some marines in Manners Mall in Wellington during a rolling street brawl.......

[eliot-ness]

Wilfred Owen (1893-1918)
"Dulce et Decorum Est "

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys! -- An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime . . .
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under I green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues, --
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

[Voltaire]

I've been around the war sites, Galipoli , Western Front, Cassino, etc. Old men in Governments sending young men off to war to do their bidding.
If they want to have a war, hire out a stadium and do it themselves.
Churchill redeemed himself in WW2, that prick Hamilton never even set foot on shore.
Met a bus load of " Old Contemptibles" at The Menin Gate once and they were very please to see so many young people at the ceremony.

[JimO]

i dont think you would get many youngsters signing up and going off to war for a adventure any more, the world is a much smaller place now and as somebody else said with discovery channel and the internet there is no mystery or misconception as to what will be happening

[James Deuce]

Not really a fan of the biscuits.

Me neither. Must be an Australian invention.

[Usarka]

I've been around the war sites, Galipoli , Western Front, Cassino, etc. Old men in Governments sending young men off to war to do their bidding.
If they want to have a war, hire out a stadium and do it themselves.
Churchill redeemed himself in WW2, that prick Hamilton never even set foot on shore.
Met a bus load of " Old Contemptibles" at The Menin Gate once and they were very please to see so many young people at the ceremony.

I checked out flanders fields, including the cemetries and Ypres. Emotional place well worth a visit and payign respect.

Had to drink some strong belgian beer afterwards and then go chill out in the 'dam.

[Hans]

Interesting photos...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2077117/Afghanistan-trauma-war-Portraits-Marines-service.html

[Katman]

How did you conclude that from what Ed wrote? :corn:


While ANZAC Day can be a time to reflect on the futility of war it is primarily an opportunity to show thanks to those who made the sacrifice to protect the freedom we enjoy today - without questioning their motivations for doing so.

Ed is a cock.

[yungatart]

I went to the Dawn service with our youngest son and an international student from Turkey, who is living with us at the moment. It was poignant, as always, made more so, because he was from 'the other side'.
Youngest son did his exchange to Belgium a few years ago and was a guest of the NZ and Ozzie High Commission for Anzac Day. All the kiwi and ozzie kids were shown around the battle sites in Belgium, the cemeteries with their rows of white crosses, and our boy had the honour of laying the official NZ wreath on behalf of all Kiwis at Menin Gate.
It made the sacrifice of those young men real to him, an experience he will never forget.

Lest we forget

[Maha]

Yip, about 60,000 Turks died during the Gallipoli Campaign, a little under the total of the combined allied forces loss of 69,000 of which 2700 were Kiwis.

[mashman]

Wilfred Owen (1893-1918)
"Dulce et Decorum Est "


I had that for an interpretation at school and even then it painted a horrific picture.

[Edbear]

It's disappointing, but not particularly surprising, that you would use Anzac Day commemorations to slide JW doctrines under the door.

Care to point them out for us?


Just as well that not everyone is a soft cock like you, ed. You wouldn't have the freedom to write the crap you do, and you wouldn't be driving a Japanese car by choice....

As usual you make assumptions without knowing, or even wanting to know, anything about me, or JW's for that matter. You are making yourself appear the bigoted fool you are.


My Grandfather fought in the Solomon Islands, and a great uncle flew in the Battle of Britain.

Neither talked of the glory of war, and they never attended commemoration services (which is not to say that they didn't remember or grieve their comrades).

I am sitting here looking at two photo's of my grandfather- one was taking before he shipped out; he is smiling with his cobbers, looking fresh faced and expectant. The second was taken after a few months in the Solomons- he has the look of a much older man who has been through experiences that I can't even begin to imagine. There was no glory in war for him, he came back a tougher, harder and more volatile man.

Although he spoke fondly of knocking seven shades of shit out some marines in Manners Mall in Wellington during a rolling street brawl.......

I have tremendous empathy for those like him.


While ANZAC Day can be a time to reflect on the futility of war it is primarily an opportunity to show thanks to those who made the sacrifice to protect the freedom we enjoy today - without questioning their motivations for doing so.

Ed is a cock.

Care to show where I have questioned anyone's motives? You are as Pussy is, dumb and dumber.

[Oscar]

I haven't noticed. Perhaps you're looking for it more given the research attached to your beliefs?

As for war in general. I would sign up only to defend NZ from invaders but not to slaughter people to gain access to their resources for the privileged few. Other than that, War, HUH, what is it good for... absolutely nothing yuwaw

This is the sort of cowardly ignorance that allows tyranny to spread.
Have a look at the origins of World War 2 and you'll find a lot of people that spoke like you.

[mashman]

This is the sort of cowardly ignorance that allows tyranny to spread.
Have a look at the origins of World War 2 and you'll find a lot of people that spoke like you.

You know fuck all about me sunshine let alone why I would go to war... and I certainly won't where it's killing people for no other reason than fighting for resources. As I've said before, there are plenty of modern day atrocity's that take place every day around the world... and yet the might of our army's will fly over these places to get to somewhere where "terrorists" live and where life is relatively peaceful. How "we" pick and choose wars is fuckin disgraceful and highly distasteful given that we ignore so many humanitarian disasters.
Get your head out of the history books dickhead and look at today!

[Oscar]

You know fuck all about me sunshine let alone why I would go to war... and I certainly won't where it's killing people for no other reason than fighting for resources. As I've said before, there are plenty of modern day atrocity's that take place every day around the world... and yet the might of our army's will fly over these places to get to somewhere where "terrorists" live and where life is relatively peaceful. How "we" pick and choose wars is fuckin disgraceful and highly distasteful given that we ignore so many humanitarian disasters.
Get your head out of the history books dickhead and look at today!

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

[mashman]

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Naive much? It's continuing to happen today irrespective of historical study.

[Maha]

The sad reality of any war conflict is that people die.

On ANZAC Day, people of all ages turn out to remember those who have fought in any war that has had NZ representation. The ANZAC’s were from one particular conflict in one particular war, and a large number of those killed were drafted civilians. That scenario will never happen again.That is the true anguish of ANZAC Day.

WWI saw Kids as young as 19-20 being taken into hell and never to return. Recent wars seem petty by comparison. I don’t mean to sound condescending towards those have been to war, but once you are in the army, you are no longer a civilian. When you are called to action, it’s time to put your training in a real life situation, like thousand before you did, with minimal (and at times, no) training.

[tri boy]

All I know about war/ANZACs and the like, is many men from our country gave up their tomorrows, so many others could enjoy their today's, in the manner that they (the fallen) missed out on.
Respect.

[Oscar]

Naive much? It's continuing to happen today irrespective of historical study.

What is?
Isolationism, like the US before Pearl Harbour?
Chamberlain and "peace in our time"?

Or your modern take, "..she'll be right, Jack"?

[Virago]

How did you conclude that from what Ed wrote? :corn:...

Ed specifically raised the issue of conscientious objectors in his first post. When no-one took the bait he made another post, asking how people feel about it.

Refusal of military service is a key part of JW doctrine.

Ed is a master of his craft, and a very careful word-smith - he will of course be along soon to deny such insinuations about his motives, and to offer some insults in response. But his carefully disguised motives are quite clear.

I think that today of all days, it is not appropriate.

[mashman]

What is?
Isolationism, like the US before Pearl Harbour?
Chamberlain and "peace in our time"?

Or your modern take, "..she'll be right, Jack"?

My modern take? You are sorely deluded. I've been reading about the guys in the US returning from Iraq and Afghanistan being treated like shit by their govt. Nothing has changed irrespective of the World Wars that people have been through, other than the way the people are treated/remembered afterwards. War still rages on across the globe.

:yawn: moron.

[Oscar]

My modern take? You are sorely deluded. I've been reading about the guys in the US returning from Iraq and Afghanistan being treated like shit by their govt. Nothing has changed irrespective of the World Wars that people have been through, other than the way the people are treated/remembered afterwards. War still rages on across the globe.

:yawn: moron.

So you think that the way the US treats its soldiers should influence our Foriegn Policy?

If we look at two of the last conflicts we committed troops to, none of your idiotic factors were present.
We helped with stability and reconstruction in Timor Leste and with reconstruction in Afghanistan (we built schools and hospitals).
What has that to do with "...slaughter(ing) people to gain access to their resources for the privileged few."

Could you name one resource that we covet in Timor or Afghanistan?

The only thing moronic here is your infantile knee jerk political posturing.

[mashman]

So you think that the way the US treats its soldiers should influence our Foriegn Policy?

If we look at two of the last conflicts we committed troops to, none of your idiotic factors were present.
We helped with stability and reconstruction in Timor Leste and with reconstruction in Afghanistan (we built schools and hospitals).
What has that to do with "...slaughter(ing) people to gain access to their resources for the privileged few."

Could you name one resource that we covet in Timor or Afghanistan?

The only thing moronic here is your infantile knee jerk political posturing.

It should influence everyone's foreign policy.

And we lost soldiers too. You missed that bit out which speaks volumes about your pathetic grasp on the real world.

"We covet". As in NZ? Would NZ have gone to those wars without their allies?

It's not political moron.

[Oscar]

It should influence everyone's foreign policy.

And we lost soldiers too. You missed that bit out which speaks volumes about your pathetic grasp on the real world.

"We covet". As in NZ? Would NZ have gone to those wars without their allies?

It's not political moron.

Of course it's political, and if it's not political, it's economic.

How many of our Allies were in Timor?
What benefit did NZ accrue apart from helping a neighbour?

You're the sort that cheered Chamberlain.
"Peace in our time".

[Genestho]

All I know about war/ANZACs and the like, is many men from our country gave up their tomorrows, so many others could enjoy their today's, in the manner that they (the fallen) missed out on.
Respect.

Does it for me too.
Political aspects never take into account the human cost so, I feel it's upto family and community to remember and respect, not just on Anzac day but, on any given day.

With so little to inspire our young men amongst first world problem's, if they can draw inspiration, pride, empathy and respect for what these men did for their countries. I reckon it's a great thing for the future.

My 6 year old presented art to some old boys from the RSA in a packed school assembly, attended his first dawn parade this morning and we discussed Great Grandads (who both passed before his birth) stories, that they barely spoke of but luckily are journaled. Incredible to imagine today.

R.E.S.P.E.C.T.

[blue rider]

Ed specifically raised the issue of conscientious objectors in his first post. When no-one took the bait he made another post, asking how people feel about it.

Refusal of military service is a key part of JW doctrine.

Ed is a master of his craft, and a very careful word-smith - he will of course be along soon to deny such insinuations about his motives, and to offer some insults in response. But his carefully disguised motives are quite clear.

I think that today of all days, it is not appropriate.

I don't care much about Ed's believes, they are his and his alone.

However, the Jehova Witnesses in Nazi Germany suffered a brutal treatment for a variety of reason.

They, like so many others that did not tow the official governmental line in Germany were send to Concentration Camps in large numbers. They were "lucky" to escape the extermination policies that killed 6 million + jews, 250.000 + Gypsies, 5 - 15.000 + homosexuals (no one really knows as they were not counted as diligently as other groups) and many others that never made it out alive..

It should at least be acknowledged that JW suffered for their believes and their refusal to serve in the German Army, and to even use the Nazi Salute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses_in_Nazi_Germany

This is written history in Germany and can not be denied.

[mashman]

Of course it's political, and if it's not political, it's economic.

How many of our Allies were in Timor?
What benefit did NZ accrue apart from helping a neighbour?

You're the sort that cheered Chamberlain.
"Peace in our time".

It's only political or economic because they're the only terms you understand.

I don't know.
I don't know.

If he wanted "peace in our time", then you can bet your arse that that's what I want.
What type are you? It's justified, let the slaughter begin? Sorry, let the collateral damage begin?

[Usarka]

Not sure the old cunts would want people to be debating politics etc on anzac day instead of paying respect to those who served and those who died.

[Bikemad]

Ed is a master of his craft, and a very careful word-smith

nah i have to disagree with that...........i and many others have had him fucked on his favourite topic on many occasions...........and it's easy to tell when he is struggling as he and his type will then fall back on the old "scripture" argument as evidence and/or start hurling abuse...........i think he is a sad lonely man and....... why the fuck is he even here when he doesn't ride a bike?:weird:

[Oscar]

Not sure the old cunts would want people to be debating politics etc on anzac day instead of paying respect to those who served and those who died.

They would if it went any way to avoiding a repeat of the war in which they served...

[Oscar]

It's only political or economic because they're the only terms you understand.

I don't know.
I don't know.

If he wanted "peace in our time", then you can bet your arse that that's what I want.
What type are you? It's justified, let the slaughter begin? Sorry, let the collateral damage begin?

It's only political or economic because you started blathering about resources and such.
If you don't know why we went to Timor, why do you post?

[Usarka]

They would if it went any way to avoiding a repeat of the war in which they served...

Yeah I'm sure you jokers arguing on the internet today is going to prevent a war.....

War is politics, and with politics most people can only accept views that match their firmly held beliefs.

[mashman]

It's only political or economic because you started blathering about resources and such.
If you don't know why we went to Timor, why do you post?

I gave it as a reason that I wouldn't go to war in response to the OP.
I'm not fool enough to believe that war isn't inevitable where some zealot is wiping people out for whatever reason, and I understand and support soldiers going to "right" that "wrong". But I am fundamentally against war.

[FJRider]

I think that today of all days, it is not appropriate.

He enjoys the same freedoms as you. Freedoms for which many died ... in the hope those freedoms were protected.

He has his own opinions ... as do you. His own beliefs ... as do you.

He has the right to express/voice his opinions ... as do you. Regardless of the fact that you, any, all ... (or none) are in agreement.

With either of you.



I think today of all days ... it is appropriate that you remember that.

[far queue]

It’s a shame that threads like this end up with the children bickering.

My dad was called up at 18 and sent to Italy at 21 in 1944. He was returned home about a year later injured. As a kid I used to ask him what he did in the war and he would tell me he was a cook. But as I got older, and he let more bits and pieces slip on the rare occasion, the cook story didn’t sound right to me. Eventually I found out that he was actually a private that served in the frontline, saw some nasty stuff, and had some close calls. I figured that the cook story was just to stop his young son, who didn’t know better, from asking “how many germans did you kill dad”. I still remember asking him that. He never had anything to do with the RSA and used to say he wasn’t interested in going there as they were just a bunch of old buggers reliving the past and why couldn’t they just let it go. In the last few years before he died he started to tell me about a few of his experiences. It didn’t happen often but when it did I just shut up and let him go.

Today is his birthday.

[bluninja]

I don't have a tradition for ANZAC day, for me it's historically been Remembrance Sunday and Armistice day. It's always good to focus on the benefits and freedoms we have today as a reult of the sacrifices of others in the past. Whilst it's great to give thanks in a public way, I always wonder ....why is there a poppy apeeal? If we really appreciate the sacrifices borne by the armed forces as a nation (UK included), why aren't they being cared for in their need (eg financial hardship, medical and mental health issues)?

The closest I got to an active warzone was when the container ship I was on was going to be retasked to the south atlantic, we all had the option of leaving the ship if it happened, but nobody did. When I returned to Portsmouth I spoke to a few navy chaps, totally fucked up emotionally; surviving, but witnessing their mates being blown up and burnt. There seemed to be no support for them after the fighting. Conscientious objector? I would never know unless I was in the position to make the choice. I think that would apply to many people.

[Edbear]

Of course it's political, and if it's not political, it's economic.

How many of our Allies were in Timor?
What benefit did NZ accrue apart from helping a neighbour?

You're the sort that cheered Chamberlain.
"Peace in our time".

If you go back to his OP, he was against war over resources, not defending people from invasion.


I don't care much about Ed's believes, they are his and his alone.

However, the Jehova Witnesses in Nazi Germany suffered a brutal treatment for a variety of reason.

They, like so many others that did not tow the official governmental line in Germany were send to Concentration Camps in large numbers. They were "lucky" to escape the extermination policies that killed 6 million + jews, 250.000 + Gypsies, 5 - 15.000 + homosexuals (no one really knows as they were not counted as diligently as other groups) and many others that never made it out alive..

It should at least be acknowledged that JW suffered for their believes and their refusal to serve in the German Army, and to even use the Nazi Salute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses_in_Nazi_Germany

This is written history in Germany and can not be denied.

Thanks. JW's were known for their neutrality world wide. If we went to war for the Allies, we would have done so for the Axis. JW's are a world wide Brotherhood and it is unthinkable for one JW to attack another. This is one of the reasons so many soldiers formed a hatred for religion, as they saw Brothers of the same church killing each other in the name of God, each side's Pastors blessing their army and saying "God is on our side!"

Contrary to some views, we are not pacifists, either, just politically neutral. Personally I never criticise those who went to war and have enormous empathy for what they went through.

Also contrary to some here, I am genuinely interested in their views.


It’s a shame that threads like this end up with the children bickering.

My dad was called up at 18 and sent to Italy at 21 in 1944. He was returned home about a year later injured. As a kid I used to ask him what he did in the war and he would tell me he was a cook. But as I got older, and he let more bits and pieces slip on the rare occasion, the cook story didn’t sound right to me. Eventually I found out that he was actually a private that served in the frontline, saw some nasty stuff, and had some close calls. I figured that the cook story was just to stop his young son, who didn’t know better, from asking “how many germans did you kill dad”. I still remember asking him that. He never had anything to do with the RSA and used to say he wasn’t interested in going there as they were just a bunch of old buggers reliving the past and why couldn’t they just let it go. In the last few years before he died he started to tell me about a few of his experiences. It didn’t happen often but when it did I just shut up and let him go.

Today is his birthday.

It is sad that some want to express their bigotry rather than have a proper discussion. My Dad was in the home guard and while never discussed much it was treated as a bit of fun at the time, but with serious undertones.

[Berries]

Now Afghan biscuits are another matter.

[Edbear]

I don't have a tradition for ANZAC day, for me it's historically been Remembrance Sunday and Armistice day. It's always good to focus on the benefits and freedoms we have today as a reult of the sacrifices of others in the past. Whilst it's great to give thanks in a public way, I always wonder ....why is there a poppy apeeal? If we really appreciate the sacrifices borne by the armed forces as a nation (UK included), why aren't they being cared for in their need (eg financial hardship, medical and mental health issues)?

The closest I got to an active warzone was when the container ship I was on was going to be retasked to the south atlantic, we all had the option of leaving the ship if it happened, but nobody did. When I returned to Portsmouth I spoke to a few navy chaps, totally fucked up emotionally; surviving, but witnessing their mates being blown up and burnt. There seemed to be no support for them after the fighting. Conscientious objector? I would never know unless I was in the position to make the choice. I think that would apply to many people.

Maybe I'm missing something, but how old are you?

[Katman]

Also contrary to some here, I am genuinely interested in their views.


Bollocks. You were never after rational debate - you were after a reaction.

The flippant tone of the thread title shows how little respect you have for the subject.

[bluninja]

Maybe I'm missing something, but how old are you?

Not very old...just recycled cells dying and growing anew all the time; reborn every 2 years ish :laugh:

Grandfather fought WWI and WWII 1 uncle did bomb disposal and was awarded for bravery for carrying an unexploded bomb out of a residential area in his arms; another uncle took part in the Berlin air lift. My dad was in the navy in Borneo and during the atomic testing.....the South Atlantic Iwas referring to was during the Falklands war in 1982...sorry for any confusion.

[Flip]

Got there early, helped set up the gun. Picked up a couple of the oldies from a local rest home. Drove the parade in first low. Got back to the RSA for the service. Fired the gun 4 times. Took the gun back to the workshop and gave it a pull through.

The truck on the left with all the aerials is mine.

281922

[oldrider]

It's disappointing, but not particularly surprising, that you would use Anzac Day commemorations to slide JW doctrines under the door.

War! That's it right there!

Mealy mouthed little wankers like you start something nasty that you can't finish and then mean and nasty arseholes like me take advantage and beat your brains out for it and then your friends who are real men come and try to take me apart so I get a couple of my mates to see your mates off and the whole thing keeps growing and growing until the fight is taken to it's limit and everything goes to shit and no one knows what the fuck started it and you have either died got sick or moved on to annoying some other fucker for some other entirely unrelated reason!

:brick:

Stalin Churchill Roosevelt Hitler Tojo et al, were just political versions of you and I but with much bigger stages to act on and more people to waste while they were at it!

:doh: We never learn from our mistakes, therefore we are destined to repeat them, over and over and over and over .... Ad infinitum! :mellow:

[Virago]

He enjoys the same freedoms as you. Freedoms for which many died ... in the hope those freedoms were protected.

He has his own opinions ... as do you. His own beliefs ... as do you.

He has the right to express/voice his opinions ... as do you. Regardless of the fact that you, any, all ... (or none) are in agreement.

With either of you.

I think today of all days ... it is appropriate that you remember that.

Yep. Many fought and died for our freedoms - even for those who object to Anzac Day commemorations - no problem. I was simply commenting on what I believe are Ed's real reasons for starting the thread.

(Or do I not have the freedom to an opinion on that...? :msn-wink:)

[Swoop]

We will remember them.


Grandfather was gassed at Ypres, recovered and returned to the front line, luckily seeing it through until the end.
Parents were both kids during the blitz.

:apint::drinkup:

[James Deuce]

Imagine, after all this, I still don't like ANZAC biscuits.

[FJRider]

(Or do I not have the freedom to an opinion on that...? :msn-wink:)

I thought the post of mine you quoted ... explained it quite clearly. A simple premiss that you obviously agree with. But obviously don't fully understand (hence the bit I quoted).

Personal comments on the beliefs of members by those tasked with moderation is not appropriate ... in my opinion.

As has been already stated ... wars have been started for less.

[Hitcher]

Please people, easy on the personal abuse and try to resist the temptation to turn this into another Ed Thread(TM).

[Ocean1]

Imagine, after all this, I still don't like ANZAC biscuits.

I doubt you've ever had one.

My Uncle used to make 'em to some esoteric, secret "original recipe", they were the Army's version of hard tack. He used to take a good supply with him when he went hunting, would pound them up, add hot water and eat them like a breakfast cereal. As far as I was concerned they were inedible.

[Virago]

I thought the post of mine you quoted ... explained it quite clearly. A simple premiss that you obviously agree with. But obviously don't fully understand (hence the bit I quoted).

Personal comments on the beliefs of members by those tasked with moderation is not appropriate ... in my opinion.

As has been already stated ... wars have been started for less.

1) - All members - including moderators - are entitled to opinions.

2) - I'm not a moderator - haven't been one for around two years.

3) - In your opinion? Lucky you...

4) - If I've started a war, my apologies.

Sincerely,

Adolf.

[Woodman]

Fuck me, this thread just proves how fucked this place has become.

[_Shrek_]

It’s a shame that threads like this end up .

aye fq, my G.G father along with my one of my G father's came home totally changed men & never spoke about it, (WW11) my Uncle, a guy I got to know late 70's through to 80's on the West Coast & my training Staff.sgt came home from Nam, my Uncle died of cancer, (ancient orange) my mate blew his head off with a 303, because of the nightmares he use to have, he was a door gunner (50cal) my Staff is still alive but fighting cancer (ancient orange) is believed to be the main suspect in both cases

my G.fathers never went to a dawn parade or the RSA they just wanted to forget, the other three, only one of them went to a dawn parade service, but they all would be at the RSA at 0530 & be shit faced by 1200 & remember their mates they did!!!

I just find it realy sad that there are those who, want to shift the focus off what today means just so they can get their own view in & put others down

I remember my G.fathers, Uncle, Staffsgt, & my mate for what they did for us all

"Lest We Forget"

[Edbear]

Not very old...just recycled cells dying and growing anew all the time; reborn every 2 years ish :laugh:

Grandfather fought WWI and WWII 1 uncle did bomb disposal and was awarded for bravery for carrying an unexploded bomb out of a residential area in his arms; another uncle took part in the Berlin air lift. My dad was in the navy in Borneo and during the atomic testing.....the South Atlantic Iwas referring to was during the Falklands war in 1982...sorry for any confusion.

That's okay, thanks for the clarification.


Yep. Many fought and died for our freedoms - even for those who object to Anzac Day commemorations - no problem. I was simply commenting on what I believe are Ed's real reasons for starting the thread.

(Or do I not have the freedom to an opinion on that...? :msn-wink:)

Of course, just as I have the freedom to tell you you're wrong. But that is quite normal for you...

[oldrider]

My Post was not an attack on Virago or anybody else, it was to simply illustrate how simple it is to trigger war amongst us humans!

Obviously the gene in us is alive and well so I guess the lull in RSA membership is only a temporary thing! :yes:

[Robert Taylor]

Thoughts? There seems to be more made of ANZAC Day in the last couple of years, as though it is becoming more relevant today than in past years.

Why do you think this is? Is the world becoming more averse to the rising violence and International tensions? The message coming across is that we need to remember and learn from our past and not to revisit it again. Not to see those fallen as falling in vain and to highlight the futility of war.

It has been noticeable in questionnaires over recent years that more and more people would register as Conscientious Objectors if called up for service and this crosses all areas of society, not just your traditional pacifists. It seems to be part of the rise of the "common people" to not be ruled by TPTB and simply told what to do.

Conversely, there is still a keen interest in joining or otherwise supporting the armed forces for the vocational training and discipline they provide and for national pride.

Do you think ANZAC Day is still relevant, do you support it and what are your attitudes to war today? I would put up a poll, but that wouldn't help so much as letting people say what they think.

Yes it is very relevant and it is heartening that so many young people are embracing it.

Last October I ventured into the crypt at St Pauls Cathedral and was horrified to evidence that General Sir Ian Hamilton is interned there. The British officer who commanded the whole dodgy Anzac cove landings and needlessly sent so many Anzacs to their death. I was disgusted that such a butcher is interned there against worthy war heroes.

We are also I believe misplaced in putting General Freyberg on a pedestal, his command in Crete was a failure. Allied troops should have repulsed the German paratroop landings. Conversely we dont make enough fuss of Sir Keith Park, a major player in the success of the Battle of Britain.

Our armed forces.....mmmm. We dont have a proper Air Force, thats sickening. Just my two cents worth

[Katman]

We are also I believe misplaced in putting General Freyberg on a pedestal, his command in Crete was a failure. Allied troops should have repulsed the German paratroop landings. Conversely we dont make enough fuss of Sir Keith Park, a major player in the success of the Battle of Britain.


To be fair Robert there were many failures on Crete, at all levels - including from above Freyberg.

Freyberg was revered more for his love of his troops than for his command capability.

[scumdog]

Fuck me, this thread just proves how fucked this place is.

Fixed for ya!

[Wannabiker]

My grandfather was Boer war (Kings Guard) and WWI (Quartermaster Sergeant, 2 Canterbury Mounted Rifles, Egypt) then NZ Permanent staff on his return to NZ. He died when I was one year old, so didn't get to talk to him much.

Dad was in WW2. RNZE (Engineers) He was in New Caledonia and also Samoa. He did recall a few stories...he was a cook, though I suspect this was not truly accurate. He spoke of raiding the American depot at the wharf, as they had refrigerated containers, with all the luxuries of home, including ice-cream. Meanwhile, the NZ'ers existed on bully beef and rancid butter. The only fresh meat was any animal they could find on the island....

He clearly saw some sights that a person should not see in a normal lifetime. He did have a passionate hatred of the Japanese, having witnessed his friends being tortured at their hands. Their treatment of captors was purely sadistic. (I could be more descriptive, but it is not really appropriate). Dad would suffer dreadful nightmares, until his passing. These were often brought on by the war movies that often used to screen on a weekend afternoon when I was a child. This was more predominant if it was a war movie involving the Japanese. I believe he was a POW for a while. He also suffered from the effects of dengue fever, which he contracted whilst in the islands.

Dad worked for the Ministry of Works in the 60's until his retirement. He was one of the few people in that organisation that had an intimate knowledge of Bailey Bridge construction, a skill he would have no doubt learnt with his time in the Engineers.

I have followed family footsteps, and have now done 25 years in the Army.

[_Shrek_]

Fixed for ya!

you still taken ya meds scummy :msn-wink:

[Edbear]

My grandfather was Boer war (Kings Guard) and WWI (Quartermaster Sergeant, 2 Canterbury Mounted Rifles, Egypt) then NZ Permanent staff on his return to NZ. He died when I was one year old, so didn't get to talk to him much.

Dad was in WW2. RNZE (Engineers) He was in New Caledonia and also Samoa. He did recall a few stories...he was a cook, though I suspect this was not truly accurate. He spoke of raiding the American depot at the wharf, as they had refrigerated containers, with all the luxuries of home, including ice-cream. Meanwhile, the NZ'ers existed on bully beef and rancid butter. The only fresh meat was any animal they could find on the island....

He clearly saw some sights that a person should not see in a normal lifetime. He did have a passionate hatred of the Japanese, having witnessed his friends being tortured at their hands. Their treatment of captors was purely sadistic. (I could be more descriptive, but it is not really appropriate). Dad would suffer dreadful nightmares, until his passing. These were often brought on by the war movies that often used to screen on a weekend afternoon when I was a child. This was more predominant if it was a war movie involving the Japanese. I believe he was a POW for a while. He also suffered from the effects of dengue fever, which he contracted whilst in the islands.

Dad worked for the Ministry of Works in the 60's until his retirement. He was one of the few people in that organisation that had an intimate knowledge of Bailey Bridge construction, a skill he would have no doubt learnt with his time in the Engineers.

I have followed family footsteps, and have now done 25 years in the Army.

These stories are what wanted from the thread. How many who have posted their story have had opportunity to do so otherwise? It is about understanding people's points of view and learning about their history.

[Edbear]

We live in a rapidly changing and volatile world, different from those times, where the Nations try desperately to avoid international conflict through negotiation while seeing internal security crumbling and civil violence on the increase destabilising and hamstringing government efforts to make our streets and homes safe.

We won't face the likes of the two wars again as WW3 would be the end of the world. Al Qaeda's publicly stated aim was that no person on Earth would feel safe and that is starting to be felt. Whether directly due to their actions or along with the general rise in anarchy and senseless violence, this is the world our children and grandchildren are growing up in.

The enemy is no longer identifiable such that an army can be sent to repel the invaders. No military nation needs to invade for strategic reasons these days. Resources like timber, water and oil are the reasons now. The Anglo-American World Power has since WW2 been seen as the protector of freedom, but cannot combat internal terrorism and are flat broke to boot.

What would the ANZAC vets think about how the world has changed? What do you think?

[Hinny]

War! That's it right there!

Mealy mouthed little wankers like you start something nasty that you can't finish and then mean and nasty arseholes like me take advantage and beat your brains out for it and then your friends who are real men come and try to take me apart so I get a couple of my mates to see your mates off and the whole thing keeps growing and growing until the fight is taken to it's limit and everything goes to shit and no one knows what the fuck started it and you have either died got sick or moved on to annoying some other fucker for some other entirely unrelated reason!

:brick:


:doh: We never learn from our mistakes, therefore we are destined to repeat them, over and over and over and over .... Ad infinitum! :mellow:

WW1 Started because Archduke Franz-Ferdinand killed. Fuck he must have been really important. 23,000 men killed in one day in that war.
Turkey became involved because Churchill refused to deliver a warship that the Turks had ordered, and paid for. They had raised the money right down to bring and buy stalls - the whole country behind the effort. Churchill wouldn't give them their ship nor their money back. Bit like the US and Pakistan. Take money for aeroplanes. refuse to supply, don't give money back, try and sell them to NZ instead. No wonder the Pakis are down on the US.
Churchill's involvement in Gallipoli should have seen him against the wall and shot.
Australian and New Zealand forces used as cannon fodder. You'll run out of bullets before we run out of men.
And then he was given another crack in WW2. Decision to bomb civilians worked really well for the Poms...Not. Poor buggers got a taste of their own medicine. Another case of his arrogance. Against the rules of war but hey, let's give it a go.

Vietnam - OMG looks like they are going to become a communist state. Better stop that. Look what the evil gooks have done. Captured one of our warships - the 'Pueblo'. Look here's a spy plane photo of it tied up in a North Vietnamese port. Only it wasn't. That was their 'Pearl Harbour' excuse to get them into a war.

Cambodia - oh yes, Pol Pot and his mates are decimating the population but they are the leaders of that country and there is no one else we can recognise as the leaders of that country so we will continue to recognise them. - Sort of what Muldoon had to say on the subject for years after the horrors of the killing fields etc. had come to light..
No political, let alone military action, needed on our part.

Afhganistan - Failed coup by US funded and trained 'freedom fighters'. George Bush senior's exercise. The records of which his son embargoed for perpetuity.. They had a democratically elected, Socialist govt. Fuck, can't have that. Better get in there and free them people... and whip a little industry in there at the same time. A little US industry. Middle two letters of Industry - US
Bit like what he did in Kuwait. Go and free those people and blow the shit out of their country so the US can go and rebuild it for them later. Virtually bankrupted Kuwait and more than doubled their population. Invaded, or what?
George Bush Jnr's. war - Many say it was to enable the building of an oil pipeline. 911 Dick Cheney's talked about 'Pearl Harbour' moment?
The pipeline deal kind of got usurped by Iran signing a deal to build a competing pipeline along a different route. They then became the bad eggs that needed dealing to.

Iraq - had to go and free those people from the evil dictator - the Butcher of Baghdad. Drop 6oo cruise missiles on Baghdad in one night as an opening salvo to free those people. Free them from their lives! US, Britain and the coalition of the willing helped free 4 million Iraqis from their lives and turned what was the playground of the rich and famous into a hell hole. 30 bombings on the day of the Boston Marathon!

North Korea - to be advised.

Iran - They are a rogue state. They kicked out our man 'the Shah of Iran' and his beautiful wife. - Evil Mullahs.
oops it was a terrible accident that our ship the Vincennes blew that commercial ailiner, Iran Air Flight 655, out of the sky. Since the court has ordered it, here is a large sum of money, but we are not admitting that it was our ship that did it and nor are we going to say sorry.
And that Frigate we sank - totally deserved it.

Oh! now they have a nuclear weapons programme that needs to be stopped.
US spooks say "No they don't and you are not going to blame us for giving you bad intelligence and causing you to go to war like you did with Iraq".
Iran is a modern society with a desperate need/desire for power. Electrical power not electoral power.
It's private agencies and Corporations that are promoting that ... and 'Bebe' the war criminal leader of Israel. Why Obama puts up with him escapes me let alone treat him as a dear friend. He must have hypnotised him or some such.Turned him into a global terrorist as well.
Some argue that he has become worse than GB2. Certainly created a lot of future terrorists in Pakistan with their drone strikes.

So yes John, you are right on the money with your comments.

[jonbuoy]

In the grand scheme things have been pretty peaceful since WW2- just skirmishes and scraps-the threat of Nukes has kept a strange balance. Boston bombings - tragic but I dare say a lot more died on the roads in the US that day. Probably more killed by weapons bought with Bostons IRA fundraising money too.

[oldrider]

In the grand scheme things have been pretty peaceful since WW2- just skirmishes and scraps-the threat of Nukes has kept a strange balance. Boston bombings - tragic but I dare say a lot more died on the roads in the US that day. Probably more killed by weapons bought with Bostons IRA fundraising money too.

The killing and destruction since WW1 and WW2 would dwarf both of those events combined over and over, it's just camouflaged by the political media! :shutup:

[Oscar]

The killing and destruction since WW1 and WW2 would dwarf both of those events combined over and over, it's just camouflaged by the political media! :shutup:

Really?

Do you have any figures on that?

[mashman]

The killing and destruction since WW1 and WW2 would dwarf both of those events combined over and over, it's just camouflaged by the political media! :shutup:

You reckon? WW1 approx 35 million people. WW2 approx 60 million people. List of conflicts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_military_conflicts).

[jonbuoy]

The killing and destruction since WW1 and WW2 would dwarf both of those events combined over and over, it's just camouflaged by the political media! :shutup:

Not so sure about that- civil, tribal, ethnic wars were still ongoing even during WW1&WW2 but "international" wars have been fairly localised. Things seem to be getting more peaceful- compared to Russian/US nuclear bombers being on 24 hour standby that is!

[Oscar]

Not so sure about that- civil, tribal, ethnic wars were still ongoing even during WW1&WW2 but "international" wars have been fairly localised. Things seem to be getting more peaceful- compared to Russian/US nuclear bombers being on 24 hour standby that is!

The link that Mashmind provided suggested that a little over 100,000 people died as the result of wars in 2012.
Even if this figure was very conservative, and bearing in mind war is shocking waste of life, it is still encouraging compared with the mayhem of the middle 20th Century,

[oldrider]

Really?

Do you have any figures on that?

No I don't. ... People seem to have it in their minds that "real" war stopped with the conclusion of WW2!

There has been a constant stream of "insignificant" wars all over the world since that time.

The sophistication and killing power of the weaponry available now is colossal in comparison to pre WW2!

When you sum up the total death and destruction of the incremental "minor" conflicts since WW2 it is my "opinion" that it would exceed WW1 and WW2 combined!

The total time spent at war during "peacetime" dwarfs that of WW1 and 2, it's almost continuous, just simply moved around the globe to keep it under control!

WW2 almost got out of control and threatened the welfare of the beneficiaries of war so things had to change!

Like the toothpaste adds of old ... 1/2 an inch on a dry brush, it matters not where you squeeze the tube! (probable a bit too subtle!)

[Hoon]

My Grandfather never talked about the war either. However he did talk to his Army mates and they would drink up a storm at every opportunity. My Grandparents house became a regular hangout for his war buddies and these drinking sessions were common place for my Aunts/Uncles growing up at the time. All my Aunts/Uncles know of the war from my Grandfather is what was overhead during these sessions.

Not talking about the War is more a military thing than a War thing. As a soldier it is hard to explain to non-military people about what you do in the Army - they just don't understand. It's like trying to explain your job in intricate detail to someone who just doesn't have a clue. Now try explaining your job during an actual War to that same person and you can understand why most soldiers don't even try. The only people you can really talk too are other military personel because they understand - you can tell a story and they will laugh whereas a non-military person wouldn't know how to react.

Now the whole going off to fight for your country debate that pops up every year. Hippies, consconscientious objectors</SPAN></SPAN>, tree huggers are all mortal enemies of the serviceman but I see them as necessary evils, the flip side of the same coin to keep things in balance. If it weren't for these clueless closeminded cowards keeping us in check then we'd be no better off than some military dictatorship. I have no ill feelings against them (although being archnemeses', I exercise my right to refer to them using derrogatory terms whereever possible).

[Edbear]

My Grandfather never talked about the war either. However he did talk to his Army mates and they would drink up a storm at every opportunity. My Grandparents house became a regular hangout for his war buddies and these drinking sessions were common place for my Aunts/Uncles growing up at the time. All my Aunts/Uncles know of the war from my Grandfather is what was overhead during these sessions.

Not talking about the War is more a military thing than a War thing. As a soldier it is hard to explain to non-military people about what you do in the Army - they just don't understand. It's like trying to explain your job in intricate detail to someone who just doesn't have a clue. Now try explaining your job during an actual War to that same person and you can understand why most soldiers don't even try. The only people you can really talk too are other military personel because they understand - you can tell a story and they will laugh whereas a non-military person wouldn't know how to react.

Now the whole going off to fight for your country debate that pops up every year. Hippies, consconscientious objectors</SPAN></SPAN>, tree huggers are all mortal enemies of the serviceman but I see them as necessary evils, the flip side of the same coin to keep things in balance. If it weren't for these clueless closeminded cowards keeping us in check then we'd be no better off than some military dictatorship. I have no ill feelings against them (although being archnemeses', I exercise my right to refer to them using derrogatory terms whereever possible).

LOL! You're nothing if not tactful... :laugh: My reason for being a CO is simply one of political neutrality. Yes I personally have an aversion to war and violence of any kind, justifiable or not, but being politically neutral, or even being a CO for any reason, does not necessarily mean one is a coward as you should realise, or close-minded for that matter. I think I also mentioned I'm not a pacifist who are non-violent regardless of provocation.

It is an uneasy balance of supporting the political ends of governments and/or defending one's family and friends. The stories coming back are frequently highlighting the change of view of those who went to war. Those who went believing and expecting one thing and being so disillusioned that they would never do it again, coming to hate or at least dismiss the authorities who sent them.

Personally, again as I can only speak for myself, the reason why someone does something is the key. If someone genuinely believes they are trying to do what is right, that is to be commended. Such one's are always willing to listen to the other's views and if necessary change their own. In the past, it was more blind obedience to authority than reasoned efforts, but today we are better educated and informed and need to base our decisions on our own study and research without the emotional baggage so relied upon by TPTB to incite their subects to follow them.

Governments still try to use emotional blackmail, for want of a better word, and national pride to promote support and to an extent this still works.

[Voltaire]

Peter Frazer went to prison in WW1 as a conscious objector as did other labour Party members.
He was PM during the war, his views on " Where England Goes We Go" must have changed over time.

[jonbuoy]

My Grandfather never talked about the war either. However he did talk to his Army mates and they would drink up a storm at every opportunity. My Grandparents house became a regular hangout for his war buddies and these drinking sessions were common place for my Aunts/Uncles growing up at the time. All my Aunts/Uncles know of the war from my Grandfather is what was overhead during these sessions.

Not talking about the War is more a military thing than a War thing. As a soldier it is hard to explain to non-military people about what you do in the Army - they just don't understand. It's like trying to explain your job in intricate detail to someone who just doesn't have a clue. Now try explaining your job during an actual War to that same person and you can understand why most soldiers don't even try. The only people you can really talk too are other military personel because they understand - you can tell a story and they will laugh whereas a non-military person wouldn't know how to react.

Now the whole going off to fight for your country debate that pops up every year. Hippies, consconscientious objectors</SPAN></SPAN>, tree huggers are all mortal enemies of the serviceman but I see them as necessary evils, the flip side of the same coin to keep things in balance. If it weren't for these clueless closeminded cowards keeping us in check then we'd be no better off than some military dictatorship. I have no ill feelings against them (although being archnemeses', I exercise my right to refer to them using derrogatory terms whereever possible).

Would a soldier who refused to march Jews into the gas chambers be a coward too? How about a general that refused Hitlers order to invade Poland? A CO who refused to send his men over the top in WW1 to run into a German machine gun posts and certain death knowing it would make no difference to the War?

One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

[Road kill]

My great grandmother was a child when Te Kooti was running amuck around Gisboure.
She had lots of interesting stories.

My Grand father served in both WW1-2.
My dads four older brothers all served during WW2 and he served in the home guard.

One of my cousins "Greg" served in Vietnam with NZSAS.

I tried to join the Army in 73 but they didn't need any cannon fodder right then so I went dairy farming instead.

War,,, "getting shot at",,, doesn't seem as attractive today as it did when I was younger.

[Edbear]

My great grandmother was a child when Te Kooti was running amuck around Gisboure.
She had lots of interesting stories.

My Grand father served in both WW1-2.
My dads four older brothers all served during WW2 and he served in the home guard.

One of my cousins "Greg" served in Vietnam with NZSAS.

I tried to join the Army in 73 but they didn't need any cannon fodder right then so I went dairy farming instead.

War,,, "getting shot at",,, doesn't seem as attractive today as it did when I was younger.

Yeah, cap-guns were okay but trading them for real guns with real bullets, kinda made me think it may be not such a good idea. Rabbits on the farm don't fire back, but armed opponents do, usually...

These days with the increasing loss of internal security we are more likely to be confronted in our own home than required to travel overseas to defend ourselves. So thinking about personal security is timely when the nations are actively avoiding international conflict as much as humanly possible.

[oldrider]

Peter Frazer went to prison in WW1 as a conscious objector as did other labour Party members.
He was PM during the war, his views on " Where England Goes We Go" must have changed over time.

You mean this guy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fraser_%28New_Zealand_politician%29

He was prime minister at the time that I first became consciously aware of the meaning of war and politics! :shifty:

[_Shrek_]

You mean this guy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fraser_%28New_Zealand_politician%29

He was prime minister at the time that I first became consciously aware of the meaning of war and politics! :shifty:

:eek: you must be realy old, does it hurt :baby:

[idb]

:eek: you must be realy old, does it hurt :baby:

You just wait...

[scumdog]

:eek: you must be realy old, does it hurt :baby:

Well, my knees certainly hurt - does that make me old???

[Laava]

Well, my knees certainly hurt - does that make me old???

Sing with me now...
Head, shoulders, knees and....floor floor floor floor

[FJRider]

Well, my knees certainly hurt - does that make me old???

You have a half decent excuse for being in pain. Being old isn't the reason for it though.

But I am glad I don't need my knee's done. The hip is a breeze by comparison ...

[Edbear]

You have a half decent excuse for being in pain. Being old isn't the reason for it though.

But I am glad I don't need my knee's done. The hip is a breeze by comparison ...

I'll put off both as long as possible.

[oldrider]

Lucky me, my hips and knees are OK but my body has to go! :mellow:

[Akzle]

Thoughts?
:not::not: troll lord!


Is the world becoming more averse to the rising violence and International tensions?
bahahahahhahahhahahaha.


no.

niggers love war. white niggers especially, and especially if they have some kind of vested interest, like money, drugs, arms, oil... whatever. war is a highly profitable enterprise.


The message coming across is that we need to remember and learn from our past and not to revisit it again. Not to see those fallen as falling in vain and to highlight the futility of war. what fucking channel are you on? the message is much as it's always been, believe in the good christian god, don't question the government or their motives, accept that those who died "died for your freedoms" and so on. oh, and don't forget to buy your chinese made plastic poppy to put in one of NZs fabulous landfill facilities.


It has been noticeable in questionnaires over recent years that more and more people would register as Conscientious Objectors if called up for service and this crosses all areas of society, not just your traditional pacifists.

It seems to be part of the rise of the "common people" to not be ruled by TPTB and simply told what to do.

to register as anything, you're submitting to the authority you register to, that they have the authority to require you to register. anyone who registers as anything will not benefit from the transaction.

the "rise of the common people" will be hilarious and futile. common people suck at shit. that's why the government exists. that's why the S&S bill got slammed through without one protest, not even a bit of flag waving.


Conversely, there is still a keen interest in joining or otherwise supporting the armed forces for the vocational training and discipline they provide and for national pride.
i can appreciate certain aspects of it (discipline, pride, skill, camaraderie, fitness etc) , but they can be delivered via other means. i cannot get my head around submitting to fight someone elses war, especially when that someone is the government.


Do you think ANZAC Day is still relevant, do you support it and what are your attitudes to war today?
i'm against war in all forms at all times between all peoples.

anzac day is relevant in that we should remember the fallen, but to truly honor them fallen, we should actually change how we go about shit, rather than fighting for it like fucking kindergarten kids, with m16s. we should question any authority that tells us to run headlong into shrapnel and/or minefields...

[oldrider]

anzac day is relevant in that we should remember the fallen, but to truly honor them fallen, we should actually change how we go about shit, rather than fighting for it like fucking kindergarten kids, with m16s. we should question any authority that tells us to run headlong into shrapnel and/or minefields...[/COLOR]

True! Akzle is quite right, the way we "remember" can really do with a make over IMHO!

How many versions of ANZAC are there for a start?

ANZAC The Australian version.

ANZAC The New Zealand version.

ANZ............................................... ..........AC The Turkish version.

Fucking useless colonial canon fodder AC .................................................. ..................... The British version.

Brotherhood? Yeah right, only when it suits and after the day is over we all go back to carrying on exactly the way we did before any of their stupid wars and "willing" to do it all again!

How fucking stupid is that!!!!! :sick:

[_Shrek_]

Well, my knees certainly hurt - does that make me old???

you wont feel old in a week or two, them knees should be good as new by then.... not sure if Doc's meds are going to your place or coming here, but either way it will help with the pain :msn-wink:

[Edbear]

:not::not: troll lord!


bahahahahhahahhahahaha.


no.

niggers love war. white niggers especially, and especially if they have some kind of vested interest, like money, drugs, arms, oil... whatever. war is a highly profitable enterprise.

what fucking channel are you on? the message is much as it's always been, believe in the good christian god, don't question the government or their motives, accept that those who died "died for your freedoms" and so on. oh, and don't forget to buy your chinese made plastic poppy to put in one of NZs fabulous landfill facilities.



to register as anything, you're submitting to the authority you register to, that they have the authority to require you to register. anyone who registers as anything will not benefit from the transaction.

the "rise of the common people" will be hilarious and futile. common people suck at shit. that's why the government exists. that's why the S&S bill got slammed through without one protest, not even a bit of flag waving.


i can appreciate certain aspects of it (discipline, pride, skill, camaraderie, fitness etc) , but they can be delivered via other means. i cannot get my head around submitting to fight someone elses war, especially when that someone is the government.


i'm against war in all forms at all times between all peoples.

anzac day is relevant in that we should remember the fallen, but to truly honor them fallen, we should actually change how we go about shit, rather than fighting for it like fucking kindergarten kids, with m16s. we should question any authority that tells us to run headlong into shrapnel and/or minefields...

Your language may be more colourful, but a lot of what you say is correct.

[Edbear]

you wont feel old in a week or two, them knees should be good as new by then.... not sure if Doc's meds are going to your place or coming here, but either way it will help with the pain :msn-wink:

May take a few more weeks but all the best, Scummy!

[mashman]

Well, my knees certainly hurt - does that make me old???

Stop giving blowjobs for letting people off of tickets then.

[Hinny]

Peter Frazer went to prison in WW1 as a conscious objector as did other labour Party members.
He was PM during the war, his views on " Where England Goes We Go" must have changed over time.

He was sent to prison on a charge of sedition. He was promoting the idea of conscientious objection to a war he saw as unjustifable.
It would appear in that view he was right.
The first British troops deployed were sent to the Middle East - The first Oil war?

In the Second War he saw that as justifiable.
Loyalty to Mother England was something he was very strong on.

[Hinny]

One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.



The Anglo-American World Power has since WW2 been seen as the protector of freedom, but cannot combat internal terrorism and are flat broke to boot.

The Anglo American World power is the biggest Terrorist organisation on earth.
Rather than as you say Nations are trying to avoid conflict these guys have been hell bent on promoting it for decades.
The rest of the world have tried to reign them in but as we saw with George Bush 2's Iraq adventure the rest of the worlds words fell on deaf ears.
With Iran and North Korea they have their propaganda machines cranked up.
Who doesn't get bombarded with anti-muslim emails.
The Christians and the Zionists are certainly streets ahead the Muslims in the terrorism stakes.

[Edbear]

The Anglo American World power is the biggest Terrorist organisation on earth.
Rather than as you say Nations are trying to avoid conflict these guys have been hell bent on promoting it for decades.
The rest of the world have tried to reign them in but as we saw with George Bush 2's Iraq adventure the rest of the worlds words fell on deaf ears.
With Iran and North Korea they have their propaganda machines cranked up.
Who doesn't get bombarded with anti-muslim emails.
The Christians and the Zionists are certainly streets ahead the Muslims in the terrorism stakes.

Would you prefer to be under Soviet, Nazi, Japanese or Chinese rule then? How about radica Moslem rule?

Yes, the US tends to throw its weight around some, but why hasn't there been a WW3? Saddam was becoming the kind of Sadist, with his sons, that could not be ignored anymore. The US reasoned he had to be taken down. Conspiracy theorists will always only believe one story. While the stability of oil was certainly a factor it wasn't the only one, nor, I believe, the primary one.

No matter what any government does there will be people who hate it and oppose it and claim conspiracy in everything. Even you should recognise the rise of anarchy and disunity within national boundaries.

Even in the relatively stable, prosperous paradise that is NZ, for some people, nothing the government,( regardless who is in power), does, is good.

[Akzle]

Would you prefer to be under Soviet, Nazi, Japanese or Chinese rule then? How about radica Moslem rule?

Yes, the US tends to throw its weight around some, but why hasn't there been a WW3? Saddam was becoming the kind of Sadist, with his sons, that could not be ignored anymore. The US reasoned he had to be taken down. Conspiracy theorists will always only believe one story. While the stability of oil was certainly a factor it wasn't the only one, nor, I believe, the primary one.

No matter what any government does there will be people who hate it and oppose it and claim conspiracy in everything. Even you should recognise the rise of anarchy and disunity within national boundaries.

Even in the relatively stable, prosperous paradise that is NZ, for some people, nothing the government,( regardless who is in power), does, is good.

Why must i be under any rule? Of those, id pick islam. In spite of the propaganda, its a fair and generous belief.

There is ww3. Its on right now. The weapons are tv, exchange rates and consumerism. (with a dose of dictatormocracy for the 'free' nations)

the us put saddam in power when they took over russias fight there.

The primary reason war WMDs, and the 'people who hate freedom', remember?

Nz is just as fucked as every other white capitalist establishment, but too passive for carbombing tptb.

[Edbear]

Why must i be under any rule? Of those, id pick islam. In spite of the propaganda, its a fair and generous belief.

There is ww3. Its on right now. The weapons are tv, exchange rates and consumerism. (with a dose of dictatormocracy for the 'free' nations)

the us put saddam in power when they took over russias fight there.

The primary reason war WMDs, and the 'people who hate freedom', remember?

Nz is just as fucked as every other white capitalist establishment, but too passive for carbombing tptb.

People cannot live together in total anarchy. People wouldn't either, throughout history ther has always been a form of governance even in "primitive" tribal societies.

Saddam was a US "appointment" but outlived his usefulness and as I said became too despotic for them to continue with him.

[scissorhands]

Too many cooks in the kitchen

Evolving to a single ruling global empire, rather than sovereign nations, bring on the UN

Feudal warlords have had their day, women in power, especially mothers, will make it sway.

Populations will become too big very soon. As more pressure gets put on resources, more war could eventuate if controls are not put in place at a global level

Currently, countries promote population growth, as these become workers and tax payers and soldiers to defend, power in numbers.

A universal governance must be put in place so cooperation rather than competition becomes the order of the day

eg Voluntary sterilisation with financial incentives, remove power from religion via UN chipping away at secular religious hate groups.

Remove religion and gonads

[Akzle]

People cannot live together in total anarchy. People wouldn't either, throughout history ther has always been a form of governance even in "primitive" tribal societies.

Saddam was a US "appointment" but outlived his usefulness and as I said became too despotic for them to continue with him.
intresting theory.
depends on yr definition of anarchy. And governance.
In tribes, ya got rites, roles etc. you generally have a vertical power structure. Ie, start at the bottom and earn your way up.
Unlike democracy, where the only qualification is how many people you can get to believe your bullshit. And youve got an army of thugs to beat down dissent.

[Edbear]

Too many cooks in the kitchen

Evolving to a single ruling global empire, rather than sovereign nations, bring on the UN

Feudal warlords have had their day, women in power, especially mothers, will make it sway.

Populations will become too big very soon. As more pressure gets put on resources, more war could eventuate if controls are not put in place at a global level

Currently, countries promote population growth, as these become workers and tax payers and soldiers to defend, power in numbers.

A universal governance must be put in place so cooperation rather than competition becomes the order of the day

eg Voluntary sterilisation with financial incentives, remove power from religion via UN chipping away at secular religious hate groups.

Remove religion and gonads

If only you knew how close to the mark your post is...


intresting theory.
depends on yr definition of anarchy. And governance.
In tribes, ya got rites, roles etc. you generally have a vertical power structure. Ie, start at the bottom and earn your way up.
Unlike democracy, where the only qualification is how many people you can get to believe your bullshit. And youve got an army of thugs to beat down dissent.

Democracy cannot work because you cannot get everyone to agree. You must have an authority with the power to make things happen. Dictatorship, which covers tribal as well, doesn't work because power corrupts and despite good intentions at the start, it goes astray to the detriment of freedom and health.

All forms of rulership, to be successful, must depend upon benevolence, wisdom and power, and so far, mankind has failed miserably to get that balance right.

[oneofsix]

Democracy cannot work because you cannot get everyone to agree. .

WTF ed, you know better than that. Democracy isn't about everyone agreeing, it is the majority


Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives. Democracy allows eligible citizens to participate equally—either directly or through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws. It encompasses social, economic and cultural conditions that enable the free and equal practice of political self-determination...

A democratic government contrasts to forms of government where power is either held by one, as in a monarchy, or where power is held by a small number of individuals, as in an oligarchy. Nevertheless, these oppositions, inherited from Greek philosophy,[3] are now ambiguous because contemporary governments have mixed democratic, oligarchic, and monarchic elements.

You all get a vote on who rules and through process and protest etc the ability to influence the elected body.

[Edbear]

WTF ed, you know better than that. Democracy isn't about everyone agreeing, it is the majority

You all get a vote on who rules and through process and protest etc the ability to influence the elected body.

True but I'm talking in practise. Note 3 indicates the issues with modern democracy. It is an adversarial system with the opposition parties opposing everything on principle whether they agree with it or not. You only need look at NZ for the way it works in reality with so many vehemently sticking to their own agendas and views whether for the common good or not.

To get anything through the parlimentary system requires a majority and force of will against a closely opposing group of opposed parties. Dirty tactics are just another part of this type of system.

Saying that, democracy has been the best of a bad bunch to date, but it is rapidly crumbling.

Society is becoming ever more fractured in the democratic nations with the authorities struggling to maintain civil order. NZ and Aus are so insulated from the rest of the world, thankfully for us, that we don't realise the seriousness of the problem world wide.

[scissorhands]

If only you knew how close to the mark your post is...
Democracy cannot work because you cannot get everyone to agree. You must have an authority with the power to make things happen. Dictatorship, which covers tribal as well, doesn't work because power corrupts and despite good intentions at the start, it goes astray to the detriment of freedom and health.
All forms of rulership, to be successful, must depend upon benevolence, wisdom and power, and so far, mankind has failed miserably to get that balance right.

How close is it?

The movie Black Robe was about a Jesuit priest who tamed a tribe of Canadian Indians. Then the neighbouring tribe came and wasted them, because they had become pacifists....

Democracy
Demons mocking like crazy
Money buys lobbyists and PR machines

Eventually a rolling snowball will grow so large it will crack and crumble under its own weight
Such is the [eventual] fate of all empires throughout history
New dragons emerge as old dragons whither in time
ie Usa then China now soon Africa
Wealth causes populations to eventually lose their edge
Eat the rich

[Edbear]

How close is it?

The movie Black Robe was about a Jesuit priest who tamed a tribe of Canadian Indians. Then the neighbouring tribe came and wasted them, because they had become pacifists....

Democracy
Demons mocking like crazy
Money buys lobbyists and PR machines

Eventually a rolling snowball will grow so large it will crack and crumble under its own weight
Such is the [eventual] fate of all empires throughout history
New dragons emerge as old dragons whither in time
ie Usa then China now soon Africa
Wealth causes populations to eventually lose their edge
Eat the rich

Very close and it is what the world powers are working towards right now. They want a One World Government under the auspices of the UN. They recognise the fact that religion is the most divisive force on Earth and will eliminate organised religion, replacing it with adherence to the UN. They will no doubt plunder the resources of the major churches, too.

[Paul in NZ]

Very close and it is what the world powers are working towards right now. They want a One World Government under the auspices of the UN. They recognise the fact that religion is the most divisive force on Earth and will eliminate organised religion, replacing it with adherence to the UN. They will no doubt plunder the resources of the major churches, too.


What 'world powers' are these Ed? Most 'world powers' cant agree on what to call tuesday... As for the UN... :laugh: Yup - I can really see China signing up for THAT.

Besides - no one actually cares if you don't believe in Santa Ed (well maybe Toyworlds a bit miffed) what they care about is 'religious' people getting their hands on civil government and a countries armed forces. That never works out well...

[Edbear]

What 'world powers' are these Ed? Most 'world powers' cant agree on what to call tuesday... As for the UN... :laugh: Yup - I can really see China signing up for THAT.

Besides - no one actually cares if you don't believe in Santa Ed (well maybe Toyworlds a bit miffed) what they care about is 'religious' people getting their hands on civil government and a countries armed forces. That never works out well...

All I can suggest is do a bit of digging around and watch this space. The major powers do agree that something along these lines has to be achieved and they are seriously working on it. It won't come easy, though.

[Paul in NZ]

All I can suggest is do a bit of digging around and watch this space. The major powers do agree that something along these lines has to be achieved and they are seriously working on it. It won't come easy, though.

Oh FFS Ed.... Another stupid internet conspiracy theory? yes - thats it - Obama is sick of all the stress and wants to hand over control of the US Military to the UN security council.....

[Edbear]

A bit more to it than that, of course. The US and Britain are on record about it, I'll see if I can dig up their comments. Have to pop into town now, though.

[Akzle]

All forms of rulership, to be successful, must depend upon benevolence, wisdom and power, and so far, mankind has failed miserably to get that balance right.

on this at least we can agree. but we're not exempt from it as is.

i'm a believer in karma, in both the pop culture and the more vedic sense. the only true benevolence is 'god', whatever you call him/her/it. the source, cause, and destination of all life and death. he/she/it is benevolence, wisdom and power. i don't believe hu/man can achieve that.

people can't handle their own shit. people have lost 'god' and replaced it with capitalism/consumerism/ownership/money, from these things happiness cannot come. and so, people are more dejected, and distracted into looking for the answer without knowing the question. at this point, a group of people step in and tell you the answer is more capitalism/consumerism/ownership/money. and you lap it up, cos you'd really, really like to believe it.

when humans, as a race, find god again, there will be change, until then, you're all pissing in the wind.

[Banditbandit]

on this at least we can agree. but we're not exempt from it as is.

i'm a believer in karma, in both the pop culture and the more vedic sense. the only true benevolence is 'god', whatever you call him/her/it. the source, cause, and destination of all life and death. he/she/it is benevolence, wisdom and power. i don't believe hu/man can achieve that.

people can't handle their own shit. people have lost 'god' and replaced it with capitalism/consumerism/ownership/money, from these things happiness cannot come. and so, people are more dejected, and distracted into looking for the answer without knowing the question. at this point, a group of people step in and tell you the answer is more capitalism/consumerism/ownership/money. and you lap it up, cos you'd really, really like to believe it.

when humans, as a race, find god again, there will be change, until then, you're all pissing in the wind.

Bwhahahahaha ... why look for another imaginery friend in the sky ??? Gods are only the creation of our own imaginations ...

[Oscar]

All I can suggest is do a bit of digging around and watch this space. The major powers do agree that something along these lines has to be achieved and they are seriously working on it. It won't come easy, though.

Digging around?

On the web?

You'll find something to support your theory.

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens when the major powers try and suppress Islam, though...

[Akzle]

Bwhahahahaha ... why look for another imaginery friend in the sky ??? Gods are only the creation of our own imaginations ...

i don't believe in 'god' in that sense, and i did make it fairly inclusive, i'm more of a gaia, papatuanuku kind of guy.

you say gods are the creation of our imagination? what created our imagination?

[oldrider]

Gods are only the creation of our own imaginations ...

Isn't almost everything? :blip:

[Maki]

ANZAC and war seems to be the stuff of confusion. My radio told me that men when to Gallipoli to fight for their country. It also told me the Turkish soldiers there were fighting for their country. Makes me wonder what country who was fighting for and why...

My radio also told me that they were fighting for the right to have shops open at certain hours... Really???

I heard on the radio that we should respect our returned servicemen. I also heard that some of them were exposed to debilitating chemicals that brought disease to them and their offspring and they are not being adequately compensated for the damage. Is that respect?

I heard that WWII was a result of WWI.

I heard that WWI was a pointless mud-fight and soldiers were once close to the point of just putting down their guns, going home and telling the politicians to go jump in a lake. I wish they had.

My radio keeps telling me that we should learn from the lessons of the past. For some reason they seem to be afraid to enunciate exactly what those lessons are. I wonder why... Perhaps the idea that the sacrifices made by so many during WWI were in fact futile and led to the slaughter of WWII is hard to swallow.

Until the day comes that we actually understand and learn from the past we are doomed to repeat our mistakes.

[Edbear]

Digging around?

On the web?

You'll find something to support your theory.

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens when the major powers try and suppress Islam, though...

If the news is on the web, so be it. I'm not talking about a theory either, just that they have talked openly about it.



i don't believe in 'god' in that sense, and i did make it fairly inclusive, i'm more of a gaia, papatuanuku kind of guy.

you say gods are the creation of our imagination? what created our imagination?

Sorry, I'm greened out at the mo...


ANZAC and war seems to be the stuff of confusion. My radio told me that men when to Gallipoli to fight for their country. It also told me the Turkish soldiers there were fighting for their country. Makes me wonder what country who was fighting for and why...

My radio also told me that they were fighting for the right to have shops open at certain hours... Really???

I heard on the radio that we should respect our returned servicemen. I also heard that some of them were exposed to debilitating chemicals that brought disease to them and their offspring and they are not being adequately compensated for the damage. Is that respect?

I heard that WWII was a result of WWI.

I heard that WWI was a pointless mud-fight and soldiers were once close to the point of just putting down their guns, going home and telling the politicians to go jump in a lake. I wish they had.

My radio keeps telling me that we should learn from the lessons of the past. For some reason they seem to be afraid to enunciate exactly what those lessons are. I wonder why... Perhaps the idea that the sacrifices made by so many during WWI were in fact futile and led to the slaughter of WWII is hard to swallow.

Until the day comes that we actually understand and learn from the past we are doomed to repeat our mistakes.

Not a bad summing up actually.

[mashman]

Democracy cannot work because you cannot get everyone to agree. You must have an authority with the power to make things happen. Dictatorship, which covers tribal as well, doesn't work because power corrupts and despite good intentions at the start, it goes astray to the detriment of freedom and health.

All forms of rulership, to be successful, must depend upon benevolence, wisdom and power, and so far, mankind has failed miserably to get that balance right.

You're not quite there :bleh:. Deomocracy would work fine if it were used for the right reasons. It isn't. And whilst we keep on truckin the way we are then it won't ever be used for the right reasons. It'll just eat away at the freedoms that we have left and plutocracy will sneak in through the back door, if it hasn't already. It's obvious to see and it's easy for TPTB to do coz all they have to do is give us a vote every 3/4 years and we'll keep on believing that we're in a democracy. A simple truth is that people don't care about the truth just so long as they're being catered for. Cull the freedoms yadda yadda divide and conquer yadda yadda tell you that it's for your own good, prosperity and safety yadda yadda and it's done. We'll never notice and there won't be the numbers to fight it as we'll all be wrong and good little citizens doing as we're told.

Bullshit to be quite frank. Rulership needs to be devolved to council/village level. Access to resources must be pooled, managed and apportioned based on need/want given the availability of resources. Mankind has failed because they have become selfish and intolerant. Again, nice and simple. In the real world, you can take any issue you like and tolerance will evaporate as soon as people believe that money is being used inefficiently. I am currently intolerant towards the govt, industry and business for that very reason, although it goes a damned sight deeper than that. Bene bashing for instance. They're lazy, unskilled, insert ignorant meme of choice because they cost the country money. Ya know, that infinite resource that people seem hell bent on protecting for their own selfish purposes... usually because they believe that they've earned it fairly and squarely where in reality they've done nothing of the kind, they've merely piggy backed on a market valuation of what they believe that they are worth. Yet the economic truth is that there aren't enough paid jobs for everyone, let alone there being enough well paid jobs for everyone to grow up well in a society that has the resources to provide everything, yet chooses not to on the grounds of a mechanism used to measure value. Any excuse that pushes another person to the bottom of the pile is born of selfishness and intolerance. The solution is very simple, but people are too intolerant and too selfish to adopt it, well, a few are, quite possibly less than the majority. Add a sprinkling of stupidity et voila, people become their own worst enemies and TPTB get to have their way.

I have a hard time believing that if our relatives, who fought and died for what we call freedom, could see today what they had defended that they would have signed up without thinking about it. In my eyes they died in vain. No disrespect meant to the fallen in the slightest, but in my eyes we're shitting all over their memory given how selfishly and intolerantly we live today.

[Edbear]

Selfishness, intolerance, greed, pride, avarice, prejudice, uncompromising independent thinking, all evident in mankind. You have such people trying to rule same. Utopia is man's dream but his own frailties prevent it ever being realised.

No matter what form of governance you think of it will fail due to it being administered by human beings. Doubt me? History proves it every time.

[scumdog]

You're not quite there :bleh:. Deomocracy would work fine if it were used for the right reasons. It isn't. .

Yeah, too many greedy, selfish, magalomaniac leeching humans involved for true democracy to function.

[bogan]

Yeah, too many greedy, selfish, magalomaniac leeching humans involved for true democracy to function.

A true democracy has no positions for those to exploit, what we have is a 'representative' democracy.

[FJRider]

ANZAC and war seems to be the stuff of confusion. My radio told me ...

Turn your radio off if it confuses you. :msn-wink:

Rely on the internet ... it wont lie to you. :shifty:

[mashman]

Selfishness, intolerance, greed, pride, avarice, prejudice, uncompromising independent thinking, all evident in mankind. You have such people trying to rule same. Utopia is man's dream but his own frailties prevent it ever being realised.

No matter what form of governance you think of it will fail due to it being administered by human beings. Doubt me? History proves it every time.

Deal with the first 2 and the rest will take care of themselves over time... but keep the uncompromising independent thinking as that's what democracy is for. As long as you offer real alternatives, democracy should win.

But mankind has not tried to live without money on a country sized scale, so history can't prove that that doesn't work :bleh:


Yeah, too many greedy, selfish, magalomaniac leeching humans involved for true democracy to function.

:rofl: Is that a hint of intolerance I see in your post... but like the bloke below says, give or take,


A true democracy has no positions for those to exploit, what we have is a 'representative' democracy.

[Akzle]

I heard that WWI was a pointless mud-fight and soldiers were once close to the point of just putting down their guns, going home and telling the politicians to go jump in a lake. I wish they had.
O. that it were. can you imagine the world today? it'd be a better place, innit? i'd have my own ooompa loompas and a chocolate river...

Yeah, too many greedy, selfish, magalomaniac leeching humans involved for true democracy to function.
you're right.

//wait. what the fuck just happened? i think scummy broke the timespace continuum. the air tastes purple...

[_Shrek_]

Yeah, too many greedy, selfish, magalomaniac leeching humans involved for true democracy to function.

thats why I want to be a dictator <_<

[FJRider]

thats why I want to be a dictator <_<

Nah ... I'd prefer President for life ... doesn't sound so evil ...

[caseye]

O. that it were. can you imagine the world today? it'd be a better place, innit? i'd have my own ooompa loompas and a chocolate river...

you're right.

//wait. what the fuck just happened? i think scummy broke the timespace continuum. the air tastes purple...


Miracles do happen Akzle.

[Banditbandit]

i don't believe in 'god' in that sense, and i did make it fairly inclusive, i'm more of a gaia, papatuanuku kind of guy.

All look like Gods to me ... unless you mean Gaia in the sense that Margolis and Lovelock used the name .. their hypothesis had nothing to do with religion (it was co-opted by the New Agers in their pick-and-mix religious style)



you say gods are the creation of our imagination? what created our imagination?

Why did anyone need to create it? Canot it just arise as a result of the interactions within this universe (whatever and where-ever that might be)? Everything is based on interaction .. why would imagination be any different?

[Banditbandit]

A true democracy has no positions for those to exploit, what we have is a 'representative' democracy.



See, right there you hit the nail on the head ... you say "representative democracy" .. but is that really what we have? Isn't it more of a deliberative democracy ???

What kind of democracy are people really talking about here ...

And in Godzone with the different identities that we have living here isn't a radical plural democracy more likely to be an effective type of Government?

[oldrider]

In NZ the electorate gives "permission" to political parties and politicians to select a government among themselves.

These selected politicians then form a coalition government that has accountability to each other, rather than to the electorate.

The political parties that are not included in the government can then form a similar opposition coalition also responsible to each other rather than the electorate.

The electorate is left frustrated and feeling powerless as there are so many layers of control between them and the "government of their choice"!

Sort of like a giant Tui Board advertisement ..... "The government of your choice" ..... yeah right!

At the end of any NZ election, the electorate still does not know the result, until the politicians and parties decide for themselves. Democracy or dictatorship? :blip:

[rok-the-boat]

As a young lad I used to ask my elder relatives about the war in the UK. Rarely got much out of them but I can tell you that the END of the war was far more meaningful to them than any of the battles, especially a battle we basically lost (Galipoli). You don't see Englishmen having holidays for the Somme or Verdun or even the Battle of Britain. To me - it's the end of the War that should be the holiday, not just one of many bad battles.

[rok-the-boat]

A true democracy has no positions for those to exploit, what we have is a 'representative' democracy.

The creators of the American Constitution understood the dangers of democracy that we today fail to see. That is why they made America into a Republic. I cringe everytime I hear an American politician ranting on about democracy. What with all their war-mongering since WWII, they have abandoned their Republic and have become a Democracy. Think about it.

[scissorhands]

In Takapuna on Anzac Day was an old maori soldier who served in the Korean war. Looked like he had been fighting fit for a big part of his life. He had been sitting at the table on the corner for 2 hours making a presence.
I went up and asking where he served, said 'good on you' and thank you.
I dont agree with many wars, but the men who stand ready to defend our country, deserve respect and recognition

[Akzle]

Why did anyone need to create it? Canot it just arise as a result of the interactions within this universe (whatever and where-ever that might be)? Everything is based on interaction .. why would imagination be any different?
so your argument is that sentient consciousness is a physiological process? that all life is just a biological and chemical phenomenon?

i'm not buying it.



I dont agree with many wars, but the men who stand ready to defend our country, deserve respect and recognition

i'm sitting and ready. if coons want to pick a fair fight, i'll fucken take a gun to em. but not on the governments terms.

sadly, it'll probably be yanks with drones and space lasers... my little bush hut probably wont last long.

[Banditbandit]

so your argument is that sentient consciousness is a physiological process? that all life is just a biological and chemical phenomenon?

i'm not buying it.




No I would not argue that at all .. sentient consciousness has an accompanying physiological process in the brain which can be measured in terms of chemical reactions and electro-magnetic impuleses ... but does the physiological process result in our consciousnes or does our consciouness cause the chemical/electromagnetic process? I have no idea ...

Certainly chemicals and electromagnetic reactions (drugs and EST) can affect the consciousness - as can physical events - such as brain damage ... which does mean that consciouness is at least dependent on the physical events ...

But as for consciousness being being purely a result of physiological process? The no - I don't buy that either ..

That was not what I was suggesting at all ... but what I meant is a whole philosophy course ... maybe if you read something like Dogen's Shobogenzo ...

http://www.amazon.com/Shobogenzo-Zen-Essays-Dogen-Eihei/dp/0824814010/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1367361026&sr=8-2&keywords=shobogenzo

(And don't anyone suggest Zen and art of motorcycle maintenance .. that has bugger al to do with Zen ..)

[Edbear]

There are three things that Science has no explanantion, or even theory for.

A/ How and why the Big Bang started.

B/ Life arising from non-life. Yes they have three theories but none of them work.

C/ Human consciousness and thought. As banditbandit said, we can measure the physical effects, but cannot explain why and how.

This has some relevance to the thread topic in that only Man has the concepts of war, nationalism, racism, or segregation beyond the physical need for survival. Only Man has the concept of honour, sacrifice and altruism.

With Mankind's history, you would wonder why he is still so keen on warring amongst his own people and own kind, when you witness the willingnes to sacrifice himself for the saving of others with no sense of reward.

[bogan]

(And don't anyone suggest Zen and art of motorcycle maintenance .. that has bugger all to do with Zen ..)

... and even less to do with motorcycles :bash:

[Akzle]

That was not what I was suggesting at all ... but what I meant is a whole philosophy course ... maybe if you read something like Dogen's Shobogenzo ...

http://www.amazon.com/Shobogenzo-Zen-Essays-Dogen-Eihei/dp/0824814010/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1367361026&sr=8-2&keywords=shobogenzo
meh, thats on the same reading list as the last thing you suggested i read...
feel free to post me your copy though...

how is it we have the capacity to philosophise, how is it we have consciousness?
personally, i'm not one for accepting what's written down ("believe in the scriptures") - what if, by some twisted happenstance, humanity was destroyed and it were only my writings that survived for the next species?
to rely on scripture, however old and however enlightened, doesn't sit with me.

consciousness cannot come from nothing, (to my mind) so consciousness has to come from consciousness, and, to my mind, that can be called god, the source, the creator etc.

now, given that everything is of god, everything is god, a bit rasta... jah and jah and i and i.
so. i am god, as a metaphor: the knowledge of god is written into my DNA.

"Canot [imagination ] just arise as a result of the interactions within this universe (whatever and where-ever that might be)?"
no, i don't believe it can. or rather, i believe all interactions are the same thing - god.


There are three things that Science has no explanantion, or even theory for.
there are a stack of things modern science doesn't have an answer for. like: "what is fire?" using science (or the lack thereof) as an argument is... scientific.

only Man has the concepts of war, nationalism, racism, or segregation beyond the physical need for survival. Only Man has the concept of honour, sacrifice and altruism.war, nationalism and racism yes. everything else, no. i think you'll find there is a lot more to "animal" societies than you'd at first observe.

[SPman]

While ANZAC Day can be a time to reflect on the futility of war it is primarily an opportunity to show thanks to those who made the sacrifice to protect the freedom we enjoy today - without questioning their motivations for doing so.To most of them - the sacrifice was unintentional!

Ursaka Not sure the old cunts would want people to be debating politics etc on anzac day instead of paying respect to those who served and those who died. On the contrary - most old soldiers I talked to were more than happy to get stuck into politicians on Anzac day - and how the hell you stop the arseholes winding up populations to get involved in wars in the first place.

We will remember them.
My radio keeps telling me that we should learn from the lessons of the past. For some reason they seem to be afraid to enunciate exactly what those lessons are. I wonder why... Perhaps the idea that the sacrifices made by so many during WWI were in fact futile and led to the slaughter of WWII is hard to swallow.
Our family remember them all through the year, the Grandparents generation's brothers, fiances and friends senselessly killed, the Uncles, Grandparents and Parents who came back severely wounded in body or mind, the cousins who went to Vietnam and came back....altered..estranged..... -
I am "lucky" in having the collected letters and diaries of 2 great uncles killed in WW1, 1 served from Aug 1914 to Aug 1918, when he was killed, winning various medals along the way. In 1914, it was all gung ho fun and adventure - by late 1917, the tone had changed to bitterness and total disillusionment - to the extent of telling "the people back home, including his older brother," NOT to enlist, stay at home, just stay away from the hell hole! Dad was severely wounded in the Islands in WW2, his brother served in Africa and Italy, and came back a changed man. In WW2 there were 2 or 3 who were CO's - one spent the war in a camp in NZ - his brother was in the RNZAF, his father was wounded at Gallipoli and was a confirmed CO after that. Another of Dad's cousins was "on the run" from authorities in NZ - his 2 brothers who were serving overseas - one was a coastwatcher in the Islands, and Dad's family supported him all the way. In fact, all the CO's in WW2 were fully supported by our families.
A lot of the old vets wouldn't talk about their experiences, but some would, in the right circumstances. Nearly all said, that if they knew when they joined up what they were getting into, none of them would have joined up. Dad wouldn't join the RSA, nor would my Grandfathers or any of their friends - but they would raise a glass to their mates every Anzac day, in quiet remembrance - they just couldn't stand the pretentious pious pontificating by just the sorts who would take the country into war, in "official" remembrance.

My abiding memory of Anzac Day is the Cenotaph dawn service, with a group of old women,(Great Aunts and their friends) there to remember and mourn the deaths of their brothers, friends and fiances, in a war they went to because they were exalted to, "in defence of king and country", which was nothing more than another egotistical power struggle between priviliged power groups, that thought nothing over killing millions of people to serve their puffed up vainglorious egos! (that came from my Grandmother, whose fiance was killed the day after her favourite brother, and she married a man who was on an 80% disability pension due to war wounds for the rest of his life.)
She also fully supported me when, after being called up for National Service, I told them to stick it up their collective arses! It wasn't the "service" - at least we weren't being shipped off to foreign wars, it was the principle of the thing! And did I get shit from others - normally those who had not been that affected by the war, or still bought into the, "they all died for you...blah blah blah, the least you can do..blah blah blah. The least I could do was do what they would have liked to have done - told them to stick it. I'm not a CO - I'd fight hard if me or mine were attacked, but be damned if I was going to be a part of the continuation of the myth!

Imagine, after all this, I still don't like ANZAC biscuits. Very over rated! - espec the commercial ones...!

[Banditbandit]

[COLOR="#139922"]
meh, thats on the same reading list as the last thing you suggested i read...
feel free to post me your copy though...


You're easy to please ... it's here ...

http://neversleep.wordpress.com/2008/01/11/complete-text-of-the-shobogenzo-online/

There will be a test this time next week ... :eek:

[Banditbandit]

how is it we have the capacity to philosophise, how is it we have consciousness?
personally, i'm not one for accepting what's written down ("believe in the scriptures") - what if, by some twisted happenstance, humanity was destroyed and it were only my writings that survived for the next species?
to rely on scripture, however old and however enlightened, doesn't sit with me.

consciousness cannot come from nothing, (to my mind) so consciousness has to come from consciousness, and, to my mind, that can be called god, the source, the creator etc.

now, given that everything is of god, everything is god, a bit rasta... jah and jah and i and i.
so. i am god, as a metaphor: the knowledge of god is written into my DNA.



Hmm .. see, as I read what you write it is so Zen it is not funny - it is spot on what Dogen says (Shobogenzo is not scripture - it is the writings of a Zen monk ... ) and Gautama (who achieved awakening and became a Buddha, leaving Samsara for ever) even counselled people against simply believing what they here (Kalama Sutra - go here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html )

But I never use the word "God" or "Gods" . there is too much Western baggage with "God" .. and in eastern philosophies Gods are never permenant - but subject to Samsara as well ... and die and cause a rebirth ....



"Canot [imagination ] just arise as a result of the interactions within this universe (whatever and where-ever that might be)?"
no, i don't believe it can. or rather, i believe all interactions are the same thing - god.

No - I would not sugegst that either .. I would suggest that our consciousnessarises as an interaction within the whole system of Samsara ... and that our imagination is part of the results of that interaction ...

Part of that interaction includes trhe chemical/electromagnetic systems in our brains/brain stem and part of it arises as we are only a part of trhe whole - which already includes some forms of consciousness. The dharma calls this "Buddhanature" ... but that is not something separate from us .. in fact, I would suggest that human beings are BUddhanature experiencing itself ... we are the consciousness of Buddhanature ... but to then begin to talk about how and why is to take part iin the dualistic world - and the dualistic world is a false perspective ...

And then - to go very Zen on you .. the sun is shining and I am going outside to enjoy the feel of it my back as I drink my tea ... what else matters?

[Edbear]

Hmm .. see, as I read what you write it is so Zen it is not funny - it is spot on what Dogen says (Shobogenzo is not scripture - it is the writings of a Zen monk ... ) and Gautama (who achieved awakening and became a Buddha, leaving Samsara for ever) even counselled people against simply believing what they here (Kalama Sutra - go here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html )

But I never use the word "God" or "Gods" . there is too much Western baggage with "God" .. and in eastern philosophies Gods are never permenant - but subject to Samsara as well ... and die and cause a rebirth ....



No - I would not sugegst that either .. I would suggest that our consciousnessarises as an interaction within the whole system of Samsara ... and that our imagination is part of the results of that interaction ...

Part of that interaction includes trhe chemical/electromagnetic systems in our brains/brain stem and part of it arises as we are only a part of trhe whole - which already includes some forms of consciousness. The dharma calls this "Buddhanature" ... but that is not something separate from us .. in fact, I would suggest that human beings are BUddhanature experiencing itself ... we are the consciousness of Buddhanature ... but to then begin to talk about how and why is to take part iin the dualistic world - and the dualistic world is a false perspective ...

And then - to go very Zen on you .. the sun is shining and I am going outside to enjoy the feel of it my back as I drink my tea ... what else matters?

Two Gingernuts with that tea! :niceone:

[Akzle]

(Shobogenzo is not scripture - it is the writings of a Zen monk ...

I would suggest that human beings are BUddhanature experiencing itself ... we are the consciousness of Buddhanature ... but to then begin to talk about how and why is to take part iin the dualistic world - and the dualistic world is a false perspective ...

And then - to go very Zen on you .. the sun is shining and I am going outside to enjoy the feel of it my back as I drink my tea ... what else matters?
PS) i'm not going to read 1200 pages on a fucking computer dude...

3) beer and dope nigga, beer and dope.

2b) buddhism came after krishnism came after the vedic scriptures.

to attain enlightenment, or no-mind, mushin, or zen or buddha-ness, or higher order/planet/realm/dimension, ie, to leave the dualistic. is entirely possible, but i reckon it can be got both ways, drugs which alter the physiological (in "this" realm), and mind/spirit/third eye which also alters the physiological but operates in "the other" realm.
i also reckon people can operate omni-dimensionally, on a regular basis

2a) i'm sure that's exactly what i said but replacing "god" with "buddhanature"

1) refer 2b) both streams come from the same spring...


Two Gingernuts with that tea! :niceone:

damn, shaved my ginger nuts yesterday...

[Banditbandit]

PS) i'm not going to read 1200 pages on a fucking computer dude...

Have a look for the "Print" button at the top of the page - then you can read hard copy :bleh:


3) beer and dope nigga, beer and dope.

You're kiding yourself - it's that false consciousness caused by the hegemony of the ruling class combined with the pseudo-rebellion of the teenage years ... get over yourself.


2b) buddhism came after krishnism came after the vedic scriptures.

And ... ??? Weltanschuuang and philosophies change as we learn more ... older is not better ... it's just older ..


to attain enlightenment, or no-mind, mushin, or zen or buddha-ness, or higher order/planet/realm/dimension, ie, to leave the dualistic. is entirely possible, but i reckon it can be got both ways, drugs which alter the physiological (in "this" realm), and mind/spirit/third eye which also alters the physiological but operates in "the other" realm.

A self-delusion .. and there is no "other realm" ... there is only NOW


i also reckon people can operate omni-dimensionally, on a regular basis

Excellent - off you go then ...


2a) i'm sure that's exactly what i said but replacing "god" with "buddhanature"

Hmmmm ... that's why I said that your writing was so Zen ... but it's so interlaced with marijuana-inspired babble ...

[Banditbandit]

(Just waiting for a Mod to move this to Religious Ravings ... )

[Smifffy]

(Just waiting for a Mod to move this to Religious Ravings ... )

I'm finding it quite interesting actually, so I hope they don't.

[Akzle]

Have a look for the "Print" button at the top of the page - then you can read hard copy :bleh:

You're kiding yourself - it's that false consciousness caused by the hegemony of the ruling class combined with the pseudo-rebellion of the teenage years ... get over yourself.

And ... ??? Weltanschuuang and philosophies change as we learn more ... older is not better ... it's just older ..

A self-delusion .. and there is no "other realm" ... there is only NOW

that's why I said that your writing was so Zen ... but it's so interlaced with marijuana-inspired babble ...

even if i owned a forest i wouldn't print it, and for the cost, it'd be cheaper to ride to your house and steal yours. (or, y'know, go fucken buy one)

teenage years are somewhat behind me. but if you were as awesome as me, you'd be hard pressed to get over yourself, too.

you were presenting an english translation of a monk's interpretation of buddhism.
the sauce of buddhism is the vedic scriptures.
prior to buddhist monk-ism, there was krishna-ism, also based on the vedic scriptures.
i query why you pick the latest interpretation of the oldest book. i do not the fact or substance of it...also that you present it as fact an then say "things must change" (or our perception thereof) how do you know i'm not the next messiah?

i disagree. if there were nothing other than now, you wouldn't have anything to base yourself on.

while i accept the now is important, and the more focused on it we can be the better we can operate in the now, but there is a was.

also, there are realms unknown, unseen, other dimensions, higher planets, etc. whatever name you give, there is reality co-existing/co-happening, that we do not typically experience.

marajuana doesn't inspire my babble, it heightens my attention of the now, subdues my urge to swear a lot, makes me think a little bit more, smoke a bit less...
it is not a false sense, it may well come under your catchall "dualistic", but it doesn't anchor me to the misery that is human existence.

i wouldn't believe you're a fruit-nut-and-milkitarian...

[mashman]

while i accept the now is important, and the more focused on it we can be the better we can operate in the now, but there is a was.

Is there room for a yet to come in there anywhere? coz dats de bit that seems to be the most important imho... in fact people have died to ensure it ommmmmmmm

[Akzle]

Is there room for a yet to come in there anywhere? coz dats de bit that seems to be the most important imho... in fact people have died to ensure it ommmmmmmm

shirley is.
But we dont have control of it (or the past). We can only affect the now.

[Edbear]

shirley is.
But we dont have control of it (or the past). We can only affect the now.

What we do now can have a profound effect on our future. Man is programmed to look forward and to plan ahead for the best outcome.

That requires studying history, researching goals and contemplating outcomes and consequences.

[Akzle]

What we do now can have a profound effect on our future. Man is programmed to look forward and to plan ahead for the best outcome.

That requires studying history, researching goals and contemplating outcomes and consequences.

no it doesn't and no we don't. *and no we aren't

you could be hit by a truck tomorow, then what good your planning, saving etc?

you have no control over the future, your existence is temporal, happiness, sadness, wealth, will come and go, even the most "powerful" men on the planet are not immune from this. cancer is a good one, brain aneurysms and appendicitis are others. little things that noone can defend against, god's lightswitch on your existence, if you will.

not to say you shouldn't strive to make your future more positive, but getting hung up on things that may or may never eventuate is pointless.

[scissorhands]

The rationalist strive is good for the economy
The spiritualists jive is good for the heart
Somewhere in the middle
We pay our way and have a good time

[Edbear]

no it doesn't and no we don't. *and no we aren't

you could be hit by a truck tomorow, then what good your planning, saving etc?

you have no control over the future, your existence is temporal, happiness, sadness, wealth, will come and go, even the most "powerful" men on the planet are not immune from this. cancer is a good one, brain aneurysms and appendicitis are others. little things that noone can defend against, god's lightswitch on your existence, if you will.

not to say you shouldn't strive to make your future more positive, but getting hung up on things that may or may never eventuate is pointless.

While I agree that no-one knows whether he will even wake up in the morning, (every morning I wake up I say, "So far so good!"), we are naturally interested in our future and in planning for it and even dreaming about it.

Assuming we do survive each day, our choices re: everything, does affect our future life. "Time and unforseen occurance" affect us all, regardless of status or anything else, and we cannot guarantee we will do this or that, that is the nature of life as we know it.

We go to school, we take apprenticeships, we consider our vocation, and so on, all affecting our future life. "The best laid plans..." does not discount that we do make plans in the first place. Sitting back and doing nothing, waiting to die by some unforseen occurance is wasteful, infulfilling and dead boring!

[Akzle]

We go to school, we take apprenticeships, we consider our vocation, and so on, all affecting our future life. "The best laid plans..." does not discount that we do make plans in the first place. Sitting back and doing nothing, waiting to die by some unforseen occurance is wasteful, infulfilling and dead boring!

"some of the most interesting people, didn't know, at [age ] 22 what they wanted to do with their lives. some of the most interesting 40 year olds i know, still don't"
(the sunscreen song)

i don't think i was advocating doing nothing while waiting to die...

[Edbear]

"some of the most interesting people, didn't know, at [age ] 22 what they wanted to do with their lives. some of the most interesting 40 year olds i know, still don't"
(the sunscreen song)

i don't think i was advocating doing nothing while waiting to die...

True, It's only taken me 55 years to work it out. I always told the kids it doesn't matter if you don't know what you want, the important thing is to do something and over time you will find your niche.

[imdying]

How about radica Moslem rule?No retarded religious whackos thanks....

<img src="http://deadwildroses.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/imaginaryfriends.jpg" />

[imdying]

There are three things that Science has no explanantion, or even theory for.Here's some stuff religion has no answer for (that don't show it up as a made up farce)

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/ABVL9dU.jpg" />

[scissorhands]

that flow diagram looks a bit like the kabbala tree of life

[oldrider]

Apparently, God created us in his own image so I guess you only have to look in the mirror to make a judgement on his credibility! :rolleyes:

[imdying]

Yep, did a good job didn't he :laugh:

<img src="http://i.qkme.me/35ouc5.jpg" />

[FJRider]

Apparently, God created us in his own image so I guess you only have to look in the mirror to make a judgement on his credibility! :rolleyes:

At least it shows he has a sense of humor ...

[Akzle]

that flow diagram looks a bit like the kabbala tree of life
i love the tree of life... fuck the kaballah, that sounds like some jew tomfuckery, and i'm not down with jew tomfuckery.
( have a really, really awesome (poster size) image of the tree of life, can't fucken upload it though. google that shit.)

At least it shows he has a sense of humor ...

yeah.


unfortunately, one like mine... twisted and oft' indecipherable, or, really, just not that fucken funny.

[Akzle]

Yep, did a good job didn't he :laugh:


never mind that, what the fuck is up with the perineum?, it's all like... elbow skin... but it aint no elbow...

or the appendix, for that matter, something that doesn't benefit you in daily life, but might kill you if it feels like it.

[Edbear]

never mind that, what the fuck is up with the perineum?, it's all like... elbow skin... but it aint no elbow...

or the appendix, for that matter, something that doesn't benefit you in daily life, but might kill you if it feels like it.

TBH I haven't studied the Perineum, never found the need to, :rolleyes: but I have studied the Appendix, having had mine removed 30 years ago. It isn't a redundant organ by any means, but does suffer from our modern lifestyle. Easy to Google though.

[Akzle]

i love the tree of life... fuck the kaballah,

-edits-
my tree of life was some tarot shit, but i see now it has jew shit on it. unteresting...

[mashman]

shirley is.
But we dont have control of it (or the past). We can only affect the now.

Makes sense.


What we do now can have a profound effect on our future. Man is programmed to look forward and to plan ahead for the best outcome.

That requires studying history, researching goals and contemplating outcomes and consequences.

Yup we do plan for the future... just a shame that it's limited by the amount of money a person has. Kinda tragic really.

As history has shown us that history we don't learn from history, to kinda seems pointless to base the future on what has happened in the past. The state of the now underlines how irrelevant the studying history is. By all means carry on lookin backwards for the answers, but I have to say you're looking in the wrong direction.

[mashman]

TBH I haven't studied the Perineum, never found the need to, :rolleyes:

:shit: I would have thought that you'd have had your nose right in that shit.

[Akzle]

:shit: I would have thought that you'd have had your nose right in that shit.

:Oi: :spanking:
keep it PG... it's before 7 and all...

[mashman]

:Oi: :spanking:
keep it PG... it's before 7 and all...

Not sure what you're talking about. Honest.

[Hinny]

Saddam was becoming the kind of Sadist, with his sons, that could not be ignored anymore. The US reasoned he had to be taken down. Conspiracy theorists will always only believe one story. While the stability of oil was certainly a factor it wasn't the only one, nor, I believe, the primary one.

No matter what any government does there will be people who hate it and oppose it and claim conspiracy in everything. Even you should recognise the rise of anarchy and disunity within national boundaries.

Even in the relatively stable, prosperous paradise that is NZ, for some people, nothing the government,( regardless who is in power), does, is good.

What was wrong with Hussein and his democratically elected government?

Was it the literacy program? - eg. everybody between the ages of 6 and 65 to be able to read and write.
I suppose it did make the US look bad with their 20% illiteracy and G. Bush 2 cutting funding funding to remedial reading programs etc.

Was it the environmental programs? - eg. Ring planting Baghdad with trees to halt the influx of the desert.
All the trees, without care, have since died.

Was it the popularity of the country for foreign tourists? - The playground of the rich and famous.
Again making the US look bad with it's crime stats.

Was it the championing of democracy? - Restoration of the parliament in Kuwait.
Another example of the US removing democracy and installing ( in this case re-installing ) sole charge heads of state (Dictators)

The reason for the invasion of Iraq changed incessantly. As each reason was shown to not be reasonable they came up with a new one.
Why we never learn from history is that it tends to get rewritten and then, as you have done, conveyed and promulgated as the truth.

[Edbear]

What was wrong with Hussein and his democratically elected government?

Was it the literacy program? - eg. everybody between the ages of 6 and 65 to be able to read and write.
I suppose it did make the US look bad with their 20% illiteracy and G. Bush 2 cutting funding funding to remedial reading programs etc.

Was it the environmental programs? - eg. Ring planting Baghdad with trees to halt the influx of the desert.
All the trees, without care, have since died.

Was it the popularity of the country for foreign tourists? - The playground of the rich and famous.
Again making the US look bad with it's crime stats.

Was it the championing of democracy? - Restoration of the parliament in Kuwait.
Another example of the US removing democracy and installing ( in this case re-installing ) sole charge heads of state (Dictators)

The reason for the invasion of Iraq changed incessantly. As each reason was shown to not be reasonable they came up with a new one.
Why we never learn from history is that it tends to get rewritten and then, as you have done, conveyed and promulgated as the truth.

Have a browse around...
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB107/

[Smifffy]

Have a browse around...
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB107/

So you're saying that war can be justified sometimes, as long as other people fight them?

[Edbear]

So you're saying that war can be justified sometimes, as long as other people fight them?

First you said I was promulgating falsehood as truth when I did nothing of the sort. Now you say I am justifying war on the grounds that other people fight them.

All I did was post a link to official records. You make your own conclusions and stop trying to make mine for me.

[Smifffy]

First you said I was promulgating falsehood as truth when I did nothing of the sort. Now you say I am justifying war on the grounds that other people fight them.

All I did was post a link to official records. You make your own conclusions and stop trying to make mine for me.

I think you misunderstand what I said. I think that perhaps you did so deliberately. Those are the conclusions I draw.

[Hinny]

All I did was post a link to official records.

You quoted a linkto 'The National Security Archive. The George Washington University'.
Hardly official.
The 'Donate' button should have given you a clue.
You really do need to be a little more critical of what you read Ed.
Next you will be believing the 'Official' 911 story and believing that was the reason for those thousands of military personnel being shipped off to a foreign land to slaughter and be slaughtered.

This guy seemed quite astute.
Giving money and power to government is like
giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
P.J. O'Rourke, Civil Libertarian

[Edbear]

I think you misunderstand what I said. I think that perhaps you did so deliberately. Those are the conclusions I draw.[/QUOTE

Sorry if I sounded a bit testy last night, I was tired.

I always say what I mean and in this case I was making the point that there is always more to a story than the media and conspiracy theorists want to admit. The link was to show official records that were unbiased, the actual records and even the criticisms.

[QUOTE=Hinny;1130542245]You quoted a linkto 'The National Security Archive. The George Washington University'.
Hardly official.
The 'Donate' button should have given you a clue.
You really do need to be a little more critical of what you read Ed.
Next you will be believing the 'Official' 911 story and believing that was the reason for those thousands of military personnel being shipped off to a foreign land to slaughter and be slaughtered.

This guy seemed quite astute.
Giving money and power to government is like
giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
P.J. O'Rourke, Civil Libertarian

A classic conspiracy believer. If you read the reports you would see they don't cover anything up.

[Hinny]

A classic conspiracy believer. If you read the reports you would see they don't cover anything up.

Which reports are you talking about?

[Edbear]

Which reports are you talking about?

R u serious?

[Akzle]

no no NO.
This thread is done. Let it go.

[Hinny]

no no NO.
This thread is done. Let it go.

Teach me to get busy.

[Hinny]

no no NO.
This thread is done. Let it go.

Nah, can't let it go.

Sheeple like Ed still believe the 'official' 911 story which despite his protestations has been shown to be bunkum.
That people of his ilk don't see anything wrong with the Govt. refusing to be questioned on this, refuse to show evidence such as the cctv footage of the alleged hijackers getting on any of the planes, refuse to show the security camera footage of the 'plane' hitting the Pentagon.
Any of these things would quash rumours from the 'conspiracy believers'.
On and on it goes and clowns accept that the govt wouldn't lie to them.
That their story is the truth and what really happened even though common sense tells you that Scotty of Startrek was right and "You canny change the laws of physics Jim".

The Sheeple believed the lie that the North Vietnamese had seized a US warship the 'Pueblo'. Showed photos of it tied up at a North Vietnamese dock.
This led to the loss of 58,000 American lives and who knows how many 'Gooks' as the Vietnamese 'Freedom Fighters' were called.
Another war based on a lie.

They seem to do it all the time\
An exercise being run where an airliner was going to fly into a skyscraper happening at the same time it actually happened.
The British train bombings happening at exactly the same time as they were running an exercise which mirrored actual events.
Forgotten the third one.
The USS 'Vincenes' shooting down the Iranian Commercial airliner - on a regular scheduled flight.
Somehow this led to the bombing of Libya.

Anzacs should not blindly follow the US into their wars.
John Key revealed his mental abilities when he declared NZ would be ready to roar of to North Korea and help the US deal to those madmen.
Along the same lines as declaring NZ was missing in action in the invasion of Iraq. Even tho' Jenny Shipley had sent troops to the illegal covert war being waged by the US.
Like the sending our tax dollars to the rebels in Libya. The same type of crimes that Charles Taylor was recently convicted of in the Hague.
Do we want to have future Anzac parades to celebrate the sacrifice of our young men and women, if they are to be sent off to kill and be killed, by elected representatives.
Our current and recent leader have acted without regard to the law.
Should we allow War criminals to go unpunished?

[Edbear]

Nah, can't let it go.

Sheeple like Ed still believe the 'official' 911 story which despite his protestations has been shown to be bunkum.
That people of his ilk don't see anything wrong with the Govt. refusing to be questioned on this, refuse to show evidence such as the cctv footage of the alleged hijackers getting on any of the planes, refuse to show the security camera footage of the 'plane' hitting the Pentagon.
Any of these things would quash rumours from the 'conspiracy believers'.
On and on it goes and clowns accept that the govt wouldn't lie to them.
That their story is the truth and what really happened even though common sense tells you that Scotty of Startrek was right and "You canny change the laws of physics Jim".

The Sheeple believed the lie that the North Vietnamese had seized a US warship the 'Pueblo'. Showed photos of it tied up at a North Vietnamese dock.
This led to the loss of 58,000 American lives and who knows how many 'Gooks' as the Vietnamese 'Freedom Fighters' were called.
Another war based on a lie.

They seem to do it all the time\
An exercise being run where an airliner was going to fly into a skyscraper happening at the same time it actually happened.
The British train bombings happening at exactly the same time as they were running an exercise which mirrored actual events.
Forgotten the third one.
The USS 'Vincenes' shooting down the Iranian Commercial airliner - on a regular scheduled flight.
Somehow this led to the bombing of Libya.

Anzacs should not blindly follow the US into their wars.
John Key revealed his mental abilities when he declared NZ would be ready to roar of to North Korea and help the US deal to those madmen.
Along the same lines as declaring NZ was missing in action in the invasion of Iraq. Even tho' Jenny Shipley had sent troops to the illegal covert war being waged by the US.
Like the sending our tax dollars to the rebels in Libya. The same type of crimes that Charles Taylor was recently convicted of in the Hague.
Do we want to have future Anzac parades to celebrate the sacrifice of our young men and women, if they are to be sent off to kill and be killed, by elected representatives.
Our current and recent leader have acted without regard to the law.
Should we allow War criminals to go unpunished?

Oh look! Another conspiracy theorist! :laugh:

[SPman]

Anzacs should not blindly follow the US into their wars.Hey - the Israeli Airforce bombed and strafed a US Navy spy ship, the USS Liberty, off the Sinai coast in 1967 - unfortunately for them, they didn't sink it so there were survivors - despite several strafing runs on people in the water - the US didn't go to war with Israel..........http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

[mashman]

Hey - the Israeli Airforce bombed and strafed a US Navy spy ship, the USS Liberty, off the Sinai coast in 1967 - unfortunately for them, they didn't sink it so there were survivors - despite several strafing runs on people in the water - the US didn't go to war with Israel..........http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

Insurance job?

[Akzle]

Insurance job?

insurance=money=jew shit.

so yes. it was. (read up on the jew that took out terrorist insurance on the TTs, and how the courts screwed him by only paying out 4 billion more than the towers were worth (he wanted five billion :crybaby:)- they were also full of asbestos which co$ts to remove...and how 90% of jews conviniently took the day off, that day.

add that it was all over scanners, that they (government) were doing a controlled demolition on building 7. (although the official story remains that it fell over because a plane hit the building 4 blocks away))

[Kickaha]

add that it was all over scanners, that they (government) were doing a controlled demolition on building 7. (although the official story remains that it fell over because a plane hit the building 4 blocks away))

http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm

[mashman]

insurance=money=jew shit.

so yes. it was. (read up on the jew that took out terrorist insurance on the TTs, and how the courts screwed him by only paying out 4 billion more than the towers were worth (he wanted five billion :crybaby:)- they were also full of asbestos which co$ts to remove...and how 90% of jews conviniently took the day off, that day.

add that it was all over scanners, that they (government) were doing a controlled demolition on building 7. (although the official story remains that it fell over because a plane hit the building 4 blocks away))

I honestly don't care who did it and why. Get rid of the money and it's fuckin pointless to do it at all innit.

[jonbuoy]

Nah, can't let it go.

Sheeple like Ed still believe the 'official' 911 story which despite his protestations has been shown to be bunkum.
That people of his ilk don't see anything wrong with the Govt. refusing to be questioned on this, refuse to show evidence such as the cctv footage of the alleged hijackers getting on any of the planes, refuse to show the security camera footage of the 'plane' hitting the Pentagon.
Any of these things would quash rumours from the 'conspiracy believers'.
On and on it goes and clowns accept that the govt wouldn't lie to them.
That their story is the truth and what really happened even though common sense tells you that Scotty of Startrek was right and "You canny change the laws of physics Jim".

The Sheeple believed the lie that the North Vietnamese had seized a US warship the 'Pueblo'. Showed photos of it tied up at a North Vietnamese dock.
This led to the loss of 58,000 American lives and who knows how many 'Gooks' as the Vietnamese 'Freedom Fighters' were called.
Another war based on a lie.

They seem to do it all the time\
An exercise being run where an airliner was going to fly into a skyscraper happening at the same time it actually happened.
The British train bombings happening at exactly the same time as they were running an exercise which mirrored actual events.
Forgotten the third one.
The USS 'Vincenes' shooting down the Iranian Commercial airliner - on a regular scheduled flight.
Somehow this led to the bombing of Libya.

Anzacs should not blindly follow the US into their wars.
John Key revealed his mental abilities when he declared NZ would be ready to roar of to North Korea and help the US deal to those madmen.
Along the same lines as declaring NZ was missing in action in the invasion of Iraq. Even tho' Jenny Shipley had sent troops to the illegal covert war being waged by the US.
Like the sending our tax dollars to the rebels in Libya. The same type of crimes that Charles Taylor was recently convicted of in the Hague.
Do we want to have future Anzac parades to celebrate the sacrifice of our young men and women, if they are to be sent off to kill and be killed, by elected representatives.
Our current and recent leader have acted without regard to the law.
Should we allow War criminals to go unpunished?

So which part of 911 do you think isn't true?


The planes crashing into the buildings?
The buildings falling down because of the planes crashing into them?
The people who organised the planes crashing into the buildings?

[Akzle]

http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm
TL: DR. i started. i tried, but i just couldn't stomach the BS.
you also dont address the 5 billion dollar jew-spiracy

I honestly don't care who did it and why. Get rid of the money and it's fuckin pointless to do it at all innit.
innit.

So which part of 911 do you think isn't true?


The planes crashing into the buildings?
The buildings falling down because of the planes crashing into them?
The people who organised the planes crashing into the buildings?

all of the above? why, which do you hink is true?

and consider the 9/11 "commission" report couldn't tell you how 7 fell down, so fucked if i know how all these "anti-conspiracy theorists" can...(there's a lot they didn't explain, W. refused to answer questions without cheney holding his hand (and didn't asnwer any anyway) their funding was coninually cut/not extended when hey wanted to do forensic investigation... etc.)

there was a computer generated model on pootube done up by some engineers showing the "collision" and fairly convincing evidence that it couldn't possibly cause a building to collapse.

bu i don' expect i'll sway any of the sheeple. ignorance is bliss. and o' lawdy, them right pee-pol in that thar noble profession of politics couldn't possibly lie to ya. could they.

[Edbear]

http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm

I don't expect any conspiracy theorists will even read it... :rolleyes:


TL: DR. i started. i tried, but i just couldn't stomach the BS.
you also dont address the 5 billion dollar jew-spiracy

innit.


all of the above? why, which do you hink is true?

and consider the 9/11 "commission" report couldn't tell you how 7 fell down, so fucked if i know how all these "anti-conspiracy theorists" can...(there's a lot they didn't explain, W. refused to answer questions without cheney holding his hand (and didn't asnwer any anyway) their funding was coninually cut/not extended when hey wanted to do forensic investigation... etc.)

there was a computer generated model on pootube done up by some engineers showing the "collision" and fairly convincing evidence that it couldn't possibly cause a building to collapse.

bu i don' expect i'll sway any of the sheeple. ignorance is bliss. and o' lawdy, them right pee-pol in that thar noble profession of politics couldn't possibly lie to ya. could they.

Proof one. You disappoint me Akzle. I would have expected you at least to have looked at all the evidence for and against. I guess it's just easier to sit back and criticise without investigation. Govt. is too easy a target and you go along with the conspiracy theorists on that basis alone.

[jonbuoy]

TL: DR. i started. i tried, but i just couldn't stomach the BS.
you also dont address the 5 billion dollar jew-spiracy

innit.


all of the above? why, which do you hink is true?

and consider the 9/11 "commission" report couldn't tell you how 7 fell down, so fucked if i know how all these "anti-conspiracy theorists" can...(there's a lot they didn't explain, W. refused to answer questions without cheney holding his hand (and didn't asnwer any anyway) their funding was coninually cut/not extended when hey wanted to do forensic investigation... etc.)

there was a computer generated model on pootube done up by some engineers showing the "collision" and fairly convincing evidence that it couldn't possibly cause a building to collapse.

bu i don' expect i'll sway any of the sheeple. ignorance is bliss. and o' lawdy, them right pee-pol in that thar noble profession of politics couldn't possibly lie to ya. could they.

The only things we can 100% know is that planes did crash into the twin towers, the twin towers did collapse.

If it was government planned did they calculate that those planes weren't enough to bring down the building and extra explosives were needed? Why not blame the terrorists for the bombs as well?

[Edbear]

The only things we can 100% know is that planes did crash into the twin towers, the twin towers did collapse.

If it was government planned did they calculate that those planes weren't enough to bring down the building and extra explosives were needed? Why not blame the terrorists for the bombs as well?

Hey, what's with the hard questions? You'll confuse them! :laugh:

Here's another question... Is it only the conspiracy theorists who will tell the truth? Of course you can only trust the word of a conspiracy theorist, they would never lie or cover the truth or tell half-truths leaving out crucial evidence, would they..? :rolleyes:

Note how they dismiss, refuse to read or otherwise scoff at any person or evidence from wherever it comes that disagrees with them? Always talking about Govt. conspiracies without mentioning that the link above, for example was NOT from Govt. sources. It was not the words of politicians either but Firemen in the main.

[Hinny]

The only things we can 100% know is that planes did crash into the twin towers, the twin towers did collapse.

If it was government planned did they calculate that those planes weren't enough to bring down the building and extra explosives were needed? Why not blame the terrorists for the bombs as well?

We don't, according to many, know that planes hit the buildings.
One has to suspend belief in all we have learnt to imagine that an Aluminium plane could penetrate the outer web of steel, go through the building taking out 20% of the internal supporting structure and come out the through the other web of steel largely intact!

You do have to ask why the secrecy?- why the cover up?

Certainly the missile theories concerning the destruction at the Pentagon could be silenced by simply showing all of the video of an aeroplane hitting the building not just 5 or 6 frames which explain nothing. Isn't that reasonable, sensible, logical?

There have been plenty of theories proposed.
There are plenty theories attempting to debunk the former.
All of the debunking theories have in turn been debunked as far as I am aware. - Most it seems needed one to suspend belief in the laws of physics.

Here is a question for the 'Believers': how did thousands of tons of steel turn into dust?
Remember these were mostly steel buildings; not just steel reinforced concrete.
Pancake theory (the official line) certainly doesn't explain that situation.

[Katman]

Note how they dismiss, refuse to read or otherwise scoff at any person or evidence from wherever it comes that disagrees with them? Always talking about Govt. conspiracies without mentioning that the link above, for example was NOT from Govt. sources. It was not the words of politicians either but Firemen in the main.

Really Ed?

Have a read of the page entitled 'Government Planning' on that link.

Hardly reads like a scientific review that's taking the subject matter seriously.

[Edbear]

We don't, according to many, know that planes hit the buildings.
One has to suspend belief in all we have learnt to imagine that an Aluminium plane could penetrate the outer web of steel, go through the building taking out 20% of the internal supporting structure and come out the through the other web of steel largely intact!

You do have to ask why the secrecy?- why the cover up?

Certainly the missile theories concerning the destruction at the Pentagon could be silenced by simply showing all of the video of an aeroplane hitting the building not just 5 or 6 frames which explain nothing. Isn't that reasonable, sensible, logical?

There have been plenty of theories proposed.
There are plenty theories attempting to debunk the former.
All of the debunking theories have in turn been debunked as far as I am aware. - Most it seems needed one to suspend belief in the laws of physics.

Here is a question for the 'Believers': how did thousands of tons of steel turn into dust?
Remember these were mostly steel buildings; not just steel reinforced concrete.
Pancake theory (the official line) certainly doesn't explain that situation.

Are you actually serious or just a massive Troll? :laugh:

[oneofsix]

We don't, according to many, know that planes hit the buildings.
One has to suspend belief in all we have learnt to imagine that an Aluminium plane could penetrate the outer web of steel, go through the building taking out 20% of the internal supporting structure and come out the through the other web of steel largely intact!

You do have to ask why the secrecy?- why the cover up?

Certainly the missile theories concerning the destruction at the Pentagon could be silenced by simply showing all of the video of an aeroplane hitting the building not just 5 or 6 frames which explain nothing. Isn't that reasonable, sensible, logical?

There have been plenty of theories proposed.
There are plenty theories attempting to debunk the former.
All of the debunking theories have in turn been debunked as far as I am aware. - Most it seems needed one to suspend belief in the laws of physics.

Here is a question for the 'Believers': how did thousands of tons of steel turn into dust?
Remember these were mostly steel buildings; not just steel reinforced concrete.
Pancake theory (the official line) certainly doesn't explain that situation.

:rofl: Have you done any background information gathering apart from that contained in the conspiracy theories? Have you seen how those buildings were constructed? Web of steel indeed :lol: I suppose all the video of the planes hitting the buildings were a Hollywood fake too regardless of the fact they were taken by private citizens using their own cameras.

[Edbear]

Really Ed?

Have a read of the page entitled 'Government Planning' on that link.

Hardly reads like a scientific review that's taking the subject matter seriously.

'Sokay, you've already provided ample evidence of your lack of intellect and comprehension. You keep on in your happy place...:msn-wink:

[Katman]

'Sokay, you've already provided ample evidence of your lack of intellect and comprehension. You keep on in your happy place...:msn-wink:

Well the theories aren't going away Ed (and I've proven over the years that I'm not either) so I'm sure one day we'll find out who's been correct all along.

[Edbear]

:rofl: Have you done any background information gathering apart from that contained in the conspiracy theories? Have you seen how those buildings were constructed? Web of steel indeed :lol: I suppose all the video of the planes hitting the buildings were a Hollywood fake too regardless of the fact they were taken by private citizens using their own cameras.

Ignorance is bliss, doncha know..?

Why study or research, it spoils your favourite lines..?

[Edbear]

Well the theories aren't going away Ed (and I've proven over the years that I'm not either) so I'm sure one day we'll find out who's been correct all along.

Well one thing is for sure, you won't. Neither will most conspiracy theorists.

[Katman]

Well one thing is for sure, you won't. Neither will most conspiracy theorists.

So how do you explain Operation Northwoods Ed?

[Hinny]

Are you actually serious or just a massive Troll? :laugh:

No answers huh?

[Edbear]

So how do you explain Operation Northwoods Ed?

You are rather slow aren't you? We looked at that some time ago. It was the Govt. that put the kibosh on it and refused to consider the plan which was put forward by Military officials.

The Govt. considered the plan ludicrous and there were consequences for the persons responsible. Don't you read much?

[oneofsix]

So how do you explain Operation Northwoods Ed?


You are rather slow aren't you? We looked at that some time ago. It was the Govt. that put the kibosh on it and refused to consider the plan which was put forward by Military officials.

The Govt. considered the plan ludicrous and there were consequences for the persons responsible. Don't you read much?

or to put it another way, Operation Northwoods is proof it wasn't a Govt. conspiracy. :bleh: They planned but got their hands smacked as it was obvious they wouldn't get away with it. However the reason they wouldn't get away with it is because the conspiracy theorist are watching. What a lovely circle. :eek:

[Edbear]

No answers huh?

Your post was so way off the planet as to show you clearly either are totally ignorant of the whole issue/event or you are simply stirring.

You will find all the answers in this thread. But of course if you are serious, you will be far too stupid to read or comprehend anything.

[Edbear]

or to put it another way, Operation Northwoods is proof it wasn't a Govt. conspiracy. :bleh:

They planned but got their hands smacked as it was obvious they wouldn't get away with it. However the reason they wouldn't get away with it is because the conspiracy theorist are watching. What a lovely circle. :eek:

Yup! :cool:

[Katman]

You are rather slow aren't you? We looked at that some time ago. It was the Govt. that put the kibosh on it and refused to consider the plan which was put forward by Military officials.

The Govt. considered the plan ludicrous and there were consequences for the persons responsible. Don't you read much?

It was a proposal put forward by the Department of Defence (you know Ed, part of the government) and rejected primarily by JFK.

Interestingly enough, JFK didn't last much longer.

Does the fact that a government department can put forward a proposal to commit acts of terrorism on their own people not shock you Ed?

[Hinny]

:rofl: Have you done any background information gathering apart from that contained in the conspiracy theories? Have you seen how those buildings were constructed? Web of steel indeed :lol: I suppose all the video of the planes hitting the buildings were a Hollywood fake too regardless of the fact they were taken by private citizens using their own cameras.

Are you suggesting the outer walls were not a web of steel?
If you are, perhaps you should do some more reading.
Super strong steel box sections bolted together to form an outer web of steel with portals for windows.

For the columns that comprised the walls, a mixture of 12 different types of steel with yield points between 42,000 pound per square inch (psi) and 100,000 psi were used, while the interior columns consisted of a steel known as A36, a designation which meant it had a yield strength of 36,000 psi. The thickness of these columns also varied -- from as thin as 0.25 inch (6.35 millimeters) at the top of the building to as thick as 4 inches (10.16 centimeters) at the base [source: FEMA (http://science.howstuffworks.com/engineering/structural/world-trade-center-construction-unique3.htm)]. In all, 200,000 tons of super-strong steel (which had just recently become available in 1968) were used to create the two towers [source: Gayle (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-123583397.html)].
Just inside the walls, at approximately 10,000 locations throughout each tower, visco elastic dampers were installed [source: FEMA (http://science.howstuffworks.com/engineering/structural/world-trade-center-construction-unique3.htm)]. These were basically large shock absorbers that could bend with wind pressure and then return to their original form. Because the towers were designed to sway and adjust in the wind, these dampers helped reduce the impact of this movement on occupants. It was the first time this technology had ever been used in a high-rise [source: FEMA (http://science.howstuffworks.com/engineering/structural/world-trade-center-construction-unique3.htm)].
The floors that flowed between the supporting walls and interior columns were made from 0.5 inch (1.27 centimeter) thick steel slabs covered in 4 inches (10.2 centimeters) of lightweight concrete.
Overall, 425,000 cubic yards (324935.8 cubic meters) of concrete (http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-improvement/construction/materials/how-is-concrete-made.htm) were poured

[Edbear]

It was a proposal put forward by the Department of Defence (you know Ed, part of the government) and rejected primarily by JFK.

Interestingly enough, JFK didn't last much longer.

Does the fact that a government department can put forward a proposal to commit acts of terrorism on their own people not shock you Ed?

If you read the plan in its entirety, nowhere did it call for innocent people to be harmed. James Bamford claimed it did, but I cannot find any actual reference to that in the actual documents beyond outling the possible risk in engaging such tactics on the streets.

The Joint Chiefs of Staff are not the Govt. and as has been pointed out the event proves it was not a Govt. conspiracy despite the conspiracy theorists claims it was.

The plan was scurrilous but was doomed to fail.

[oneofsix]

It was a proposal put forward by the Department of Defence (you know Ed, part of the government) and rejected primarily by JFK.

Interestingly enough, JFK didn't last much longer.

Does the fact that a government department can put forward a proposal to commit acts of terrorism on their own people not shock you Ed?

That question is interesting not because of what it asks but the reason it doesn't shock. If you think about it it actually comes out logically. Military and quasi military organisation exist on the basis that some are going to die for the greater good. An army doesn't go to war expecting everyone to come home, they work on the basis of acceptable loss. Therefore a proposal from a quasi military organisation that thinks in terms of acceptable losses and actions in and amongst civilians it isn't surprising. What is worrying is that our Govt has now let our equivalent loose amongst its own citizens. The CIA not being normally "allowed" to operate within the USA borders possibly helped saved them from Northwood as they needed Presidential approval.
Still doesn't make the World Trade a conspiracy though.

[Katman]

The Joint Chiefs of Staff are not the Govt.

The Department of Defense most certainly is though.

And this quote from Wikipedia would suggest that the Joint Chiefs of Staff are part of the DoD.

'The Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) is a body of senior uniformed leaders in the Department of Defense who advise the Secretary of Defense, the Homeland Security Council, the National Security Council and the President on military matters'.

[Edbear]

Are you suggesting the outer walls were not a web of steel?

For the columns that comprised the walls, a mixture of 12 different types of steel with yield points between 42,000 pound per square inch (psi) and 100,000 psi were used, while the interior columns consisted of a steel known as A36, a designation which meant it had a yield strength of 36,000 psi. The thickness of these columns also varied -- from as thin as 0.25 inch (6.35 millimeters) at the top of the building to as thick as 4 inches (10.16 centimeters) at the base [source: FEMA (http://science.howstuffworks.com/engineering/structural/world-trade-center-construction-unique3.htm)]. In all, 200,000 tons of super-strong steel (which had just recently become available in 1968) were used to create the two towers [source: Gayle (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-123583397.html)].
Just inside the walls, at approximately 10,000 locations throughout each tower, visco elastic dampers were installed [source: FEMA (http://science.howstuffworks.com/engineering/structural/world-trade-center-construction-unique3.htm)]. These were basically large shock absorbers that could bend with wind pressure and then return to their original form. Because the towers were designed to sway and adjust in the wind, these dampers helped reduce the impact of this movement on occupants. It was the first time this technology had ever been used in a high-rise [source: FEMA (http://science.howstuffworks.com/engineering/structural/world-trade-center-construction-unique3.htm)].
The floors that flowed between the supporting walls and interior columns were made from 0.5 inch (1.27 centimeter) thick steel slabs covered in 4 inches (10.2 centimeters) of lightweight concrete.
Overall, 425,000 cubic yards (324935.8 cubic meters) of concrete (http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-improvement/construction/materials/how-is-concrete-made.htm) were poured

And the vidoes of the planes hitting the towers..? The fact that recently they found another part of a plane jammed between two buildings? The fact that enough of the plane that hit the Pentagomn survived to identify it and the reports from paramedics and others actually there and involved, (with pictures), of the body parts, pieces of uniforms and other clothing, that prove it was a 757?

Oh, that's right, only the conspiracy theorists are telling the truth, eh?

[Madness]

Haven't you cunts got jobs to do? (Except you Ed, we know while posting on KB you're technically "working")

[Edbear]

The Department of Defense most certainly is though.

And this quote from Wikipedia would suggest that the Joint Chiefs of Staff are part of the DoD.

'The Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) is a body of senior uniformed leaders in the Department of Defense who advise the Secretary of Defense, the Homeland Security Council, the National Security Council and the President on military matters'.

Sigh... See posts 234, 236 and this bit of my previous post...

"If you read the plan in its entirety, nowhere did it call for innocent people to be harmed. James Bamford claimed it did, but I cannot find any actual reference to that in the actual documents beyond outling the possible risk in engaging such tactics on the streets."

As usual you simply ignore anything relevant in your lame attempts to convince anyone you have a point.

[Katman]

If you read the plan in its entirety, nowhere did it call for innocent people to be harmed.

I think you should read up on it a little more Ed.

The proposals most certainly did have the potential to cause loss of life.

[Edbear]

Haven't you cunts got jobs to do? (Except you Ed, we know while posting on KB you're technically "working")

There are certain benefits to working from home and being your own boss... :cool:

[Edbear]

I think you should read up on it a little more Ed.

The proposals most certainly did have the potential to cause loss of life.

I give up on you. :no:

"...I cannot find any actual reference to that in the actual documents beyond outling the possible risk in engaging such tactics on the streets."

[Hinny]

Your post was so way off the planet as to show you clearly either are totally ignorant of the whole issue/event or you are simply stirring.

You will find all the answers in this thread. But of course if you are serious, you will be far too stupid to read or comprehend anything.

Your arrogance appears to be only exceeded by your ignorance.

What part of my post is off the planet?
I have read plenty and the answers do not exist.

What is wrong with asking to see the proof that is available of what caused the destruction at the Pentagon?
Why release only 6 frames that show nothing?
How does an Aluminium plane go through 6 or 8 sides of a building leaving a neat round hole?
Why did the engines burn up in the resulting fire? -at a temperature much lower than they would experience during normal operation. That official line doesn't make sense does it?


How did 200,000 tons of super strong steel turn to dust?
How does an Aluminium plane go through a structure like that? It wasn't flying through a curtain wall of glass you know. At the point of impact it was a web of steel as thick as the armour plating on a tank. Internal supports more than twice that thickness.

Got any answers for that?

[bogan]

I give up on you. :no:

"...I cannot find any actual reference to that in the actual documents beyond outling the possible risk in engaging such tactics on the streets."

Any you don't think it is possible that when releasing documents outling a plan for domestic terrorism, the government might have taken some parts out? Naive much?

[Hinny]

Ignorance is bliss, doncha know..?

Why study or research, it spoils your favourite lines..?

You could get out of your happy place by doing some study or research Ed. but perhaps you are better off where you are.