The role of parents in financial education

[mashman]

Nope - no answer there.......

Then you're not looking.


I don't 'cos I'm greedy and materialistic, I want toys, travel, a sound house I actually own etc.

And I wouldn't like being called a lazy-arsed leech...

Some people make a very good living on the dole. No reason you can't have both if you're willing to put in the hard yards.

Sticks and Stones.

[gwigs]

I don't 'cos I'm greedy and materialistic, I want toys, travel, a sound house I actually own etc.


And I wouldn't like being called a lazy-arsed leech...

So everyone on a benefit is a Lazy Arsed Leech...?
Some people don,t have a choice...
But hey its what I would expect from you..
Its like saying all cops are cunts..

[scumdog]

So everyone on a benefit is a Lazy Arsed Leech...?
Some people don,t have a choice...
But hey its what I would expect from you..
Its like saying all cops are cunts..


Touchy-touchy-touchy! - so defensive..

I said 'I' (i.e myself) didn't want to be called a lazy arsed leech.

I never said 'EVERYONE' on the benefit was one (I know they are not)- but others out there seem to think that and I didn't like the idea of being a target for them.

[scumdog]

Some people make a very good living on the dole. No reason you can't have both if you're willing to put in the hard yards.



I'll leave that to those willing to make the gamble - personally I would rather the 'hard yards' be more productive and assured, it's worked for me so far:niceone:.

[FROSTY]

It's not hard to know how much you can afford to pay at any given point in time. You have X coming in each week, you can afford to spend Y. The problems occur when circumstances change i.e. interest rates rise, cost of living rises, an unforeseen expense appears and they borrow borrow borrow with every intention of being able to pay it back. Plenty of people do pay it back, plenty of people hit the skids and end up out of their depth through no real fault of their own, coz circumstance screws their once comfortable position.
It's all fine and well telling kids to live beyond their means and I'd venture that the majority manage just fine... unless you have figures to highlight otherwise? . (http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2009/db2009064_666715.htm)
Im sorry mon I deal with what I am saying every day of the week.I have a pile of files sitting right next to me. People wanting finance.
For Me and You what you posted is just common sense Im not argueing with you there.
But the evidence I have reinforces what Im saying .People across the board lack the ability to plan financially.
To say "ohh its the dumb blacks" or "pakeha ripping us off" is stupid because its right across New Zealand society. Black ,white,brown or yellow.People are not living within their means when things are good.
Actually I'd also add we have a generation with expectations of being bailed out when they get too deep in debt so they generally don't want to plan.

[Tarded]

Im sorry mon I deal with what I am saying every day of the week.I have a pile of files sitting right next to me. People wanting finance.
For Me and You what you posted is just common sense Im not argueing with you there.
But the evidence I have reinforces what Im saying .People across the board lack the ability to plan financially.
To say "ohh its the dumb blacks" or "pakeha ripping us off" is stupid because its right across New Zealand society. Black ,white,brown or yellow.People are not living within their means when things are good.
Actually I'd also add we have a generation with expectations of being bailed out when they get too deep in debt so they generally don't want to plan.

Dont let the lefties hear you mention personal responsibility! Esp the mentally ill ones - mashman.

The main problem with leftie economics is they dont have a plan for what to do when they have run out of other peoples money to give away.

Lazy stupid people are lazy stupid people. And not all those on the bene fit this criteria obviously.
But it supports many who do.

No point teaching a man to fish if he is too bone idle to bother when he can get a free fish every day.

And you cant change the human psyche. Read some Orwell.

[mashman]

Im sorry mon I deal with what I am saying every day of the week.I have a pile of files sitting right next to me. People wanting finance.
For Me and You what you posted is just common sense Im not argueing with you there.
But the evidence I have reinforces what Im saying .People across the board lack the ability to plan financially.
To say "ohh its the dumb blacks" or "pakeha ripping us off" is stupid because its right across New Zealand society. Black ,white,brown or yellow.People are not living within their means when things are good.
Actually I'd also add we have a generation with expectations of being bailed out when they get too deep in debt so they generally don't want to plan.

There's nothing wrong with people wanting finance though, is there. They may even be able to aford the repayments :shit: ;)
Things turn to custard sometimes. If people can't afford what they have, then it'll be a very short lived ownership as they won't be able to pay for it, but given that they can, then I'm guessing that they're financially aware albeit they may be overstretched with contingency. If they are going to start catering for contingency, then I think we'll start seeing less people buying stuff. Even though I get Genestho's "lag" argument, it's not just the item being bought that will be saved for. It's everything that they don't buy during that save time that feels the affect. On the face of it it looks like a great policy, in reality it's overkill to teach it at school. It's basic Maths. Some people may not grasp Maths. How do you teach them?
heh, you can't beat a good stereotype though, it's a great thing to use when yer fresh out of ideas in regards to what the problem is. Tis one of the reasons that I love KB so :D. They are living within their means, they're just not ready for the fuckup of the exceptionally financially literate brigade, even the financially literate take a hammering and when they get hammered, jobs are lost and people get exposed to a situation no one (very few) could have predicted. Saying that they're living beyond their means in many cases is not the term I'd use.
That's what insurance is for innit as it absolves one of personal responsibility ;)

[mashman]

Dont let the lefties hear you mention personal responsibility! Esp the mentally ill ones - mashman.

The main problem with leftie economics is they dont have a plan for what to do when they have run out of other peoples money to give away.

Lazy stupid people are lazy stupid people. And not all those on the bene fit this criteria obviously.
But it supports many who do.

No point teaching a man to fish if he is too bone idle to bother when he can get a free fish every day.

And you cant change the human psyche. Read some Orwell.

From Page 9


People will have the opportunity to exercise personal responsibility with just about zero excuses for doing something bad.

bzzzzz, try again :bleh:

:rofl:@other people's money. Left, right, still in the middle with you, they all use the same money for the same things.

As for the rest, I hear whambulance.

As I said, I have changed my mind. Orwell was wrong. Weak willed people can't change their minds because they don't have one to change, they need to be told what to think and feel by the media so that they can feel safe that their choice was the majority one. Fuckin hilarious watching that unfold on a forum.

[Banditbandit]

Dont let the lefties hear you mention personal responsibility! Esp the mentally ill ones - mashman.


Huh ?? What ??? Where did that come from ?? What do you know about anarchy - where personal freedom is only gained in balance and alongside personal repsonsibilty - complete and total personal responsibility ...

And where do we see the rightwing exhibit personal responsibility when Govements bail out big business with billions of dollars - How does that hold exectives personally responsible for the fiscal mess they create ??


The main problem with leftie economics is they dont have a plan for what to do when they have run out of other peoples money to give away.

Bwhahaha .. so ... I consider myself to be leftwing .. but I also consider that the Rightwing giving $1.6billion of our money (mine and your taxes) to South Canterbury Finance (and other similar actions) to be completely wrong ...

It's not just the left that give away other people's money ...

And the fact that you posted this inane comment shows just how much of the right wing propoganda you have carelesly swallowed.


Lazy stupid people are lazy stupid people. And not all those on the bene fit this criteria obviously.
But it supports many who do.

Yes true .. how to you propose to deal with the issues created by cutting the benefit to those people at a time when even a Govermment minister has admitted there are not enough jobs to go around? And how do you identify those people ?


No point teaching a man to fish if he is too bone idle to bother when he can get a free fish every day.

This is true .. but give a man a fish you feed him for a day .. teach him to use the internet and he won't bother you for weeks ...

Equally - It is said that an infinite number of monkeys with a keyboard each will eventually write the script to Hamlet ... The internet proves this is false ..

Who gave you a keyboard and taught you to use the interdweb? ??

[avgas]

Is that because they weren't being paid at the end of the training?
Nah - because we were helping people who didn't want help. They wanted a perpetual handout, not a solution.
They were smart enough to know that if they learned to fish, they would be expected to catch fish. If they absolved themselves of that then society would provide for them.
I'd rather let the fuckers starve.

Well you'll get your wish given the current way we live. Quite possibly in our lifetime.
Very true in regards to the respect. Perhaps we can teach a generation to have some? As I said earlier, I'm willing to give it a bash to see if it can work. Better trying that never knowing?
And if the people pulling the carriage are happy to pull the carriage? They're fools? or are they just hard workers who have that respect thing you're talking about?
There is already an easy way out. It's called the dole. Why don't more people take that option?
Sadomasochism. But sometimes there are other reasons.
My wife is easier to live with when she works. Therefore I must also work as I couldn't get the dole and have her income also.
I used to go to school because I was told education was king. Now the more I know the less I want to - the more you know about the complexions of life, the more complicated the life.

I used to smoke dope and think listen to music all day.
Was I more productive to society then? Or when I started to get paid to do stuff?

[avgas]

So everyone on a benefit is a Lazy Arsed Leech...?
Some people don,t have a choice...
But hey its what I would expect from you..
Its like saying all cops are cunts..
There is always a choice.
Are you doing volunteer work?
Benefit = money
Lazy = Ability to do something

The ability to do something is independant of being paid. Lots of people are lazy. Lots of people are on benefits.
You could argue that if being on a benefit is a negative, and being lazy is also negative.
Being a Lazy Arsed Leech (as you called it) or as I would say - a person on a benefit doing nothing........................I can't really see a positive side to that.

Just because gangs ride motorbikes should we assume all motorcyclist are arseholes, or out of interest its how the person acts that changes that perception?
So are you lazy? I sometimes am........it's not something I am proud of.

[mashman]

Nah - because we were helping people who didn't want help. They wanted a perpetual handout, not a solution.
They were smart enough to know that if they learned to fish, they would be expected to catch fish. If they absolved themselves of that then society would provide for them.
I'd rather let the fuckers starve.


Ah. Now here's where we agree believe it or not. I'm happy to let the fuckers starve... however we both know that that won't happen as they will merely take someone else's and that's the whole point of giving them money in the first place. Caveat: I won't accept that under the circumstances where a few are benefitting via some form of value system, coz that shit just doesn't work. So whilst my system CAN provide for the "lazy" (it has to coz the same needs to be available for the "infirm"), there's nothing to say that society, or indeed the community in which the lazy individual(s) live, has to supply anything to those people should it wish not to. It reasonable to expect some effort, so I understand that point of view. It could be as simple as cleaning the sewers for 2 hours a day. Then perhaps the community will be happy? If not, then I question the society/community as it is valuing a mandatory contribution based on some arbritrary measurement. To that end I'd support the death penalty for rapists etc... As I said to the tarded one, "People will have the opportunity to exercise personal responsibility with just about zero excuses for doing something bad.". We get to set new rules based on entirely different standards and not for the few, but for everyone.



Sadomasochism. But sometimes there are other reasons.
My wife is easier to live with when she works. Therefore I must also work as I couldn't get the dole and have her income also.
I used to go to school because I was told education was king. Now the more I know the less I want to - the more you know about the complexions of life, the more complicated the life.

I used to smoke dope and think listen to music all day.
Was I more productive to society then? Or when I started to get paid to do stuff?

:rofl:... You want to become them :shifty:? I have discussed with Mrs M about hitting the dole. She's not keen, so I have to work... although I've recently cut my hours to get home early to deal with the kids coz she's working ridiculous hours for half of my salary. Go figure. There's a fuckload of jobs that don't serve people and those jobs, in a money free society, will simply vanish. This will leave people free to re-train in a job that is actually useful and one that they might enjoy, hell we could have 20 different jobs over our lifetime. You could get stoned and listen to music iffen you were cleaning the swere :).
I hear ya. And I've found the answer to be neither.

[avgas]

Great. Perhaps I could contribute. I would get my PHD, and then take more drugs.
I think this guy should be my idol
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/OIeDWzls3gs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[mashman]

Great. Perhaps I could contribute. I would get my PHD, and then take more drugs.
I think this guy should be my idol


LSD then... I'm in.

[FROSTY]

Mashman I just don't know what world you live in.
In my world As I said I have piles of applications for finance from people who are living beyond their means.
Not just the simple fact they need to borrow money to buy a $2000-15000 item but beyond their ability to repaythe loan itself.
Heres a couple of examples pulled at random from the stack
Earning $500 a week and current committments of $450 a week. Loan repayments of $40 a week. No allowance for car running costs/insurance etc.
Earning Decent money but 3 finance defaults in the past 2 years. No attempt to repay the debts despite being aware of them and having the money to repay them.
This is not as you seem to be saying about change of circumstances for the worse. This is just plain and simple bad money management.
I see 100 people with bad money management for every 1 I see due to change in circumstances.

people are "trapped" in a cycle of borrowing. At the bottom end you have those getting their pay or dole payments and ripping down to repay the loan at the shark at 28% interest.
At the other end you have people who "need" to top up their morgage to go on holiday or get the new car etc.

[Banditbandit]

Great. Perhaps I could contribute. I would get my PHD, and then take more drugs.
I think this guy should be my idol


"This guy" is so clearly on the autistic spectrum it is not funny - an excellent portrayal of such a person ...

And I'll bet he earns way way more money than you or I ..

[mashman]

Mashman I just don't know what world you live in.
In my world As I said I have piles of applications for finance from people who are living beyond their means.
Not just the simple fact they need to borrow money to buy a $2000-15000 item but beyond their ability to repaythe loan itself.
Heres a couple of examples pulled at random from the stack
Earning $500 a week and current committments of $450 a week. Loan repayments of $40 a week. No allowance for car running costs/insurance etc.
Earning Decent money but 3 finance defaults in the past 2 years. No attempt to repay the debts despite being aware of them and having the money to repay them.
This is not as you seem to be saying about change of circumstances for the worse. This is just plain and simple bad money management.
I see 100 people with bad money management for every 1 I see due to change in circumstances.

people are "trapped" in a cycle of borrowing. At the bottom end you have those getting their pay or dole payments and ripping down to repay the loan at the shark at 28% interest.
At the other end you have people who "need" to top up their morgage to go on holiday or get the new car etc.

I wasn't saying that these people don't exist. The thing is they have the money to make the payments in your example. As for running etc... you assume that they don't earn money in another way. Fair enough in regards to those who continually default, but how do they continually get finance when they are known risks?
Do you really think that financial literacy lessons are going to change their spending behaviour? Like you say, they can't get credit from the cheaper interest channels, so they head of to the shark. They know how much cash they have.

There is a cycle of borrowing and as your probably know, it only takes a person to go overdrawn once and it could quite easily continue like that for the rest of their lives. I honestly don't see financial literacy classes making a hoot of difference.

As I said, I get the idea behind financial literacy classes, but I don't see how it's going to make a blind bit of difference to the decision making process of those who are willing to get themselves into that position.

[mashman]

Mashie - I know you enjoy these arguments but doesn't it worry you that on a site with 4000 members, you have almost no support? Could it be that you are mistaken? Or are you convinced that everyone else is wrong and you are a lone messiah?

Perhaps we, that's those who have voted yes in the pole of the other thread, know something about NZers that you don't? Could you be mistaken about our agenda? Could you wrong about the support that may be in the wider community? I am but 1 of many... and we are you in every single way.

[scumdog]

Earning $500 a week and current committments of $450 a week. Loan repayments of $40 a week. No allowance for car running costs/insurance etc.
.

So $10 'spare' huh?

And that $450 is for the 'regular' committments...so one visit to the dentist or one punctured tyre or one burnt-out electric jug and that's that weeks 'spare' (+ some) gone.

[scumdog]

As for running etc... you assume that they don't earn money in another way. .

Well they said an income of $500 - why fudge the amount they earn - especially when trying to get a loan??

[mashman]

Well they said an income of $500 - why fudge the amount they earn - especially when trying to get a loan??

Perhaps the other income is sporadic? Some of ours was considered as such by a mortgage advisor we spoke with.

[jonbuoy]

Ah. Now here's where we agree believe it or not. I'm happy to let the fuckers starve... however we both know that that won't happen as they will merely take someone else's and that's the whole point of giving them money in the first place.

Yes I can see your solution to poverty now - "let the fuckers starve" - nice - the evil western governments don´t even have that attitude.

So in "Mashtopia" the moneyless society - do you accept that things that are rare now will still be "rare" - hardwoods, precious metals, rare earth metals, fine wines, prime steaks, gemstones, antiques, oil, coal, gas- there will be no more of these generated by Mashtopian economic model than there is now.

So what happens in a simply daily chore - like shopping. How are you going to do something fairly basic - make sure that each person has an equal share of something as simple as say a T-Bone steak and a good bottle of red wine- you can only get a limited number of prime cuts from a cow and only so many good bottles of wine from a good grape harvest - the rest would be stewing or mincing/cheap plonk. So is it a first come first served situation in the "supermarket"?

[scumdog]

- the rest would be stewing or mincing/cheap plonk. ?

Yeah - but it WILL be free~:lol:

[mashman]

Yes I can see your solution to poverty now - "let the fuckers starve" - nice - the evil western governments don´t even have that attitude.

So in "Mashtopia" the moneyless society - do you accept that things that are rare now will still be "rare" - hardwoods, precious metals, rare earth metals, fine wines, prime steaks, gemstones, antiques, oil, coal, gas- there will be no more of these generated by Mashtopian economic model than there is now.

So what happens in a simply daily chore - like shopping. How are you going to do something fairly basic - make sure that each person has an equal share of something as simple as say a T-Bone steak and a good bottle of red wine- you can only get a limited number of prime cuts from a cow and only so many good bottles of wine from a good grape harvest - the rest would be stewing or mincing/cheap plonk. So is it a first come first served situation in the "supermarket"?

:rofl:... that ain't up to me. True, the evil western guys have reputations to uphold and just keep money away from people who need fed.

Mashtopia... great name. Yes rare stuff will be rare and will be used where they are most needed. Oil, coal and gas will be left the fuck alone as and when it is replace by something else.

Not everyone likes T-Bone steak or indeed classes it as the best meat. Not everyone likes red wine or drinks. Take what you want, the shelves will be stacked again at a later date. Tis up to your conscious how much you take... however if, for some reason, someone decides to hog all of the hog, it'll be up to the community to decide if action is required. Yup, first come first served, just as it is now.

[jonbuoy]

:rofl:... that ain't up to me. True, the evil western guys have reputations to uphold and just keep money away from people who need fed.

Mashtopia... great name. Yes rare stuff will be rare and will be used where they are most needed. Oil, coal and gas will be left the fuck alone as and when it is replace by something else.

Not everyone likes T-Bone steak or indeed classes it as the best meat. Not everyone likes red wine or drinks. Take what you want, the shelves will be stacked again at a later date. Tis up to your conscious how much you take... however if, for some reason, someone decides to hog all of the hog, it'll be up to the community to decide if action is required. Yup, first come first served, just as it is now.

:facepalm: I don´t think you have thought this through at all have you? Most of the community will be doing their chores/work when that tray of Snapper/Steak/wine gets put on the shelves. The only people that will get the prime cuts are the ones hanging round the supermarket all day which means they can´t be doing anything productive. People will start swapping/bartering amongst each other - "I don´t like red wine but there was one bottle of good stuff left - can I swap you for that steak?"

[mashman]

:facepalm: I don´t think you have thought this through at all have you? Most of the community will be doing their chores/work when that tray of Snapper/Steak/wine gets put on the shelves. The only people that will get the prime cuts are the ones hanging round the supermarket all day which means they can´t be doing anything productive. People will start swapping/bartering amongst each other - "I don´t like red wine but there was one bottle of good stuff left - can I swap you for that steak?"

:facepalm: talk about not thinking things through. The "chores" aren't necessarily going to have people working longer than a 4 hour day, there will be another 20 hours in the day to jostle for position in the food queue :facepalm:. Also, the people who catch the snapper, cut the steak, produce the wine will have first refusal over what they produce. People can barter all they like, it's not going to be forbidden.

[FROSTY]

I wasn't saying that these people don't exist. The thing is they have the money to make the payments in your example. As for running etc... you assume that they don't earn money in another way. Fair enough in regards to those who continually default, but how do they continually get finance when they are known risks?
Do you really think that financial literacy lessons are going to change their spending behaviour? Like you say, they can't get credit from the cheaper interest channels, so they head of to the shark. They know how much cash they have.

There is a cycle of borrowing and as your probably know, it only takes a person to go overdrawn once and it could quite easily continue like that for the rest of their lives. I honestly don't see financial literacy classes making a hoot of difference.

As I said, I get the idea behind financial literacy classes, but I don't see how it's going to make a blind bit of difference to the decision making process of those who are willing to get themselves into that position.
You don't get it do you?? these people DON't have other income. The examples quoted are all eventually file 13's once shredded.
But still they applied with the expectation of getting finance.
In most cases the first time they have done a personal income/expense list is with me.They have no clue how close to deep trouble they actually are. They don't know because they have never been taught such basic life skills

[Ocean1]

They don't know because they have never been taught such basic life skills

I reckon if Mashie's mum had taught him the basics of financial literacy we wouldn't all be here now trying to do it for her.

[mashman]

You don't get it do you?? these people DON't have other income. The examples quoted are all eventually file 13's once shredded.
But still they applied with the expectation of getting finance.
In most cases the first time they have done a personal income/expense list is with me.They have no clue how close to deep trouble they actually are. They don't know because they have never been taught such basic life skills

I get it fine thanks... they may not have other income that they can declare as a regular income is where I'm coming from. You cannot deny that that is a possibility. It may not be a majority circumstance, but it is a possibility...
Do you reckon they went somewhere else to ask for a loan after you explained it to them? Look, I do agree with you in regards to a lack of education, I just don't see the point in wasting school education time to make people financially aware. If they haven't grasped it by now, then what makes you think they will grasp it at school? Odd how have they managed to keep under the magical $500 limit so far? surely if they were that ignorant they would just spend spend spend?

[mashman]

I reckon if Mashie's mum had taught him the basics of financial literacy we wouldn't all be here now trying to do it for her.

:rofl:... it ain't my mum's fault, tis the fault of the professionals failing at their profession and missing that a GFC the likes of which had never been seen before happened to slip past them ruining millions of peoples lives.

[Ocean1]

:rofl:... it ain't my mum's fault, tis the fault of the professionals failing at their profession and missing that a GFC the likes of which had never been seen before happened to slip past them ruining millions of peoples lives.

Mashie doesn't play well with others.

Could try harder.

Please see me after class.

[mashman]

Mashie doesn't play well with others.

Could try harder.

Please see me after class.

I didn't do it. God made me do it.

[jonbuoy]

:facepalm: talk about not thinking things through. The "chores" aren't necessarily going to have people working longer than a 4 hour day, there will be another 20 hours in the day to jostle for position in the food queue :facepalm:. Also, the people who catch the snapper, cut the steak, produce the wine will have first refusal over what they produce. People can barter all they like, it's not going to be forbidden.

First refusal - that doesn´t sound fair - but ok - I´ll take a few hours in the gold smelting factory in the morning and a couple of hours at the oil refinery in the afternoon - (I don´t fancy the binman or funeral directors job though). That should give me enough bartering power to not have to queue up at the supermarket.

I wonder - would a litre of fuel be worth more or less than two prime cuts of meat? Damn the butchers got enough fuel already - I suppose I could try and swap the fuel for some new knives and swap the knives with the butcher for the meat. Damn I´m really going to need those extra hours in the day

[mashman]

First refusal - that doesn´t sound fair - but ok - I´ll take a few hours in the gold smelting factory in the morning and a couple of hours at the oil refinery in the afternoon - (I don´t fancy the binman or funeral directors job though). That should give me enough bartering power to not have to queue up at the supermarket.

I wonder - would a litre of fuel be worth more or less than two prime cuts of meat? Damn the butchers got enough fuel already - I suppose I could try and swap the fuel for some new knives and swap the knives with the butcher for the meat. Damn I´m really going to need those extra hours in the day

Wotcha gonna do with your gold and oil? And what is anyone else going to do with gold or oil?

Meanwhile, I'll be getting free fuel, will take what's on offer at the supermarket, will do what the community requires of me, will have free knives professionally sharpened, and will be working less hours than you. bon chance mon ami.

[gwigs]

Wotcha gonna do with your gold and oil? And what is anyone else going to do with gold or oil?

Meanwhile, I'll be getting free fuel, will take what's on offer at the supermarket, will do what the community requires of me, will have free knives professionally sharpened, and will be working less hours than you. bon chance mon ami.

Free fuel would become available in a resourced based economy..
New technologies would not be suppressed by big corporations looking after their profits.
Have scientists working on sustainability instead of better ways of killing people...
Fuel could be free..

[mashman]

Free fuel would become available in a resourced based economy..
New technologies would not be suppressed by big corporations looking after their profits.
Have scientists working on sustainability instead of better ways of killing people...
Fuel could be free..

Very true. What about those guys who can't get their low energy devices off the ground? Reckon they might move to NZ? Wonder how many other people would see the advantages of the RBE society and bring not only money, but expertise in just about every field of practical endeavor to NZ? We could up the IQ of the run of the mill NZer by a 1000%.

[jonbuoy]

Wotcha gonna do with your gold and oil? And what is anyone else going to do with gold or oil?

Meanwhile, I'll be getting free fuel, will take what's on offer at the supermarket, will do what the community requires of me, will have free knives professionally sharpened, and will be working less hours than you. bon chance mon ami.

A lot of people like shiny things - they have always and they will always like gold and gems.

Free fuel? Awesome - I´m in - bring back the 7litre big blocks - I can fly my private Airbus all over the world to my fleet of megayachts dotted in my favorite places - I can do all this right? There is no restriction on what I can and can´t do everythings free - I can take what I want? If I feel like a curry from my favorite takeway I can get my jet to fly over and pick one up for dinner. A bit like this guy does now - unless your planning to take it off him/me? Not sure how long this oils going to last......

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2251071/Jumbo-fit-prince-The-240million-private-jet-Turkish-bath-boardroom-concert-hall.html

[328FTW]

Free fuel would become available in a resourced based economy..
New technologies would not be suppressed by big corporations looking after their profits.
Have scientists working on sustainability instead of better ways of killing people...
Fuel could be free..

It's not as simple as that, our development isn't necessarily hindered by money issues but technological ones. One good example (at least IMO) is the space race. Say overnight we could freeze and reanimate people, in a process compact enough to fit on a space vehicle. We send these people to go colonize some planets, just a few that from measurements appear they could sustain life. We send them today, right now. So they are now on a journey of thousand of years, so give things a couple thousand years on earth. Our technology allows near light speeds and we cut that time down to just a few hundred years. So you beat the ones you sent first by thousands of years.

Only this concept isn't that weird for any field. You could start building some huge project only to find it outdated by the time it's commissioned by an easier to build, cheaper and more efficient system. The money may be the throttler for the development but it's to a point applying a real world value to the risk vs reward factor and perhaps rewards better implemented ideas.


Of course there is definitely a more optimal way than what we currently do but the idea of free fuel and all that I wouldn't exactly say is going to come forth readily because of a system change. You may find in the idea of "the greater good" more gets diverted to doing massive projects such as industrializing currently 3rd world nations. I mean huge nations that are currently too poor to afford fuel for the masses are now in on a new system where their work is valued equally to our own. So they can hook up to the power grid, throw up a house, start developing as per what we consider normal. It'd be a large demand from a market that never used to exist.


I'd almost like to meet those that sternly believed communism was infallible and put them in a thread with people who know it's not and see if it looks anything like this one:bleh:

[mashman]

A lot of people like shiny things - they have always and they will always like gold and gems.

Free fuel? Awesome - I´m in - bring back the 7litre big blocks - I can fly my private Airbus all over the world to my fleet of megayachts dotted in my favorite places - I can do all this right? There is no restriction on what I can and can´t do everythings free - I can take what I want? If I feel like a curry from my favorite takeway I can get my jet to fly over and pick one up for dinner. A bit like this guy does now - unless your planning to take it off him/me? Not sure how long this oils going to last......

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2251071/Jumbo-fit-prince-The-240million-private-jet-Turkish-bath-boardroom-concert-hall.html

No problem at all. I just hope he isn't too devastated when fuel runs out. Perhaps he might want to look into hot air balloons just in case.

[Genestho]

I understand where you are coming from though :bleh:. Being financially aware does not stop the behaviours you are talking about. Billionnaires go broke too ya know. The one thing people seem to be ignoring is that at the time of taking out HP those people can afford it. Otherwise that'd be classed as irresponsible lending wouldn't it?
It's not hard to know how much you can afford to pay at any given point in time. You have X coming in each week, you can afford to spend Y. The problems occur when circumstances change i.e. interest rates rise, cost of living rises, an unforeseen expense appears and they borrow borrow borrow with every intention of being able to pay it back. Plenty of people do pay it back, plenty of people hit the skids and end up out of their depth through no real fault of their own, coz circumstance screws their once comfortable position.
It's all fine and well telling kids to live beyond their means and I'd venture that the majority manage just fine... unless you have figures to highlight otherwise? So it doesn't highlight a lack of education in regards to spending etc... it highlights a problem that life changes and catches people out financially sometimes.
Most of the bankruptcies in the US are due to having to pay medical bills, not due to people overspending. Read up on it, because it isn't people living beyond their means. (http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2009/db2009064_666715.htm)

That news article of the study you quote, took a sample of 2314 participants, out of 1.09 million bankruptcies managed to co-relate then state that 67% of ALL bankrupts in a population of 305 million at the time collectively had a consumer debt - the stuff people consume, of 2.5 trillion were due to medical bills? Always look deeper than a news article.

The funding source of the study is a not for profit company involved in the healthcare sector, that owns 8.8 billion in assets by the way.


If they are going to start catering for contingency, then I think we'll start seeing less people buying stuff. Even though I get Genestho's "lag" argument, it's not just the item being bought that will be saved for. It's everything that they don't buy during that save time that feels the affect. On the face of it it looks like a great policy, in reality it's overkill to teach it at school. It's basic Maths. Some people may not grasp Maths. How do you teach them?

Basic Maths, no. Apart from using a calculator to divide, add and multiply :lol: It's not that simple.

It's also teaching your kids to be aware of what they're signing, terminology, policy wording, fine print, what's going on in the trade sectors we deal in. "If it sounds to good to be true - then it probably is" To be aware of local AND world economics, what are the markets doing, where's the dollar at.

Can you still do something if the dollar fluctuates, if rates change, life changes, what's happening this week with the reserve bank and housing markets and keeping on top of all that, questioning everything and further knowing you can haggle your banks or anyone these days over anything and you should and budgeting.

No, you don't get what I'm saying - forget about the so called relative lag, you seem to be focussed on a "save only" scenario, there is no VS!!!
While I was saving in the early/hard days - the rule of thumb -10% of my earnings, I was still travelling, going out, buying stuff as well as paying bills! How does that happen in your save only scenario??
Savings can also turn into investments!!

Which brings me to human nature, you're a good indicator of it. I get that you're passionate and believe in this theory but if someone picks holes in your argument or disagrees, you're patronising or you talk about sniper rifles, har har.

Here you are on KB "canvasing" normal people, you think you're not going to get frustrated and angry if ever you try preaching in the real world to a majority of people that will pick holes and are simply not in agreement?
Anyway, I'm out. Got stuff to do. Goodluck :lol:

[mashman]

That news article of the study you quote, took a sample of 2314 participants, out of 1.09 million bankruptcies managed to co-relate then state that 67% of ALL bankrupts in a population of 305 million at the time collectively had a consumer debt - the stuff people consume, of 2.5 trillion were due to medical bills? Always look deeper than a news article.

The funding source of the study is a not for profit company involved in the healthcare sector, that owns 8.8 billion in assets by the way.


So it just isn't true then? I'm more than aware and I am aware of the use of statistics. People losing their jobs where the could once afford the medical bill repayments is likely in there i.e. the credit card bit. I wasn't giving a critique of the document for the sole purpose that it speaks for itself. Go ahead and half that number if it makes you feel any better.

Maybe this is closer to the mark for you (http://www.clearbankruptcy.com/financial-literacy/10-leading-causes-of-bankruptcy.aspx). A grand conspiracy could be that the stats in the other article were bang on and led to the financial crisis as more people defaulted on home loans. but that would just be silly, wouldn't it?



Basic Maths, no. Apart from using a calculator to divide, add and multiply :lol: It's not that simple.

It's also teaching your kids to be aware of what they're signing, terminology, policy wording, fine print, what's going on in the trade sectors we deal in. "If it sounds to good to be true - then it probably is" To be aware of local AND world economics, what are the markets doing, where's the dollar at.

Can you still do something if the dollar fluctuates, if rates change, life changes, what's happening this week with the reserve bank and housing markets and keeping on top of all that, questioning everything and further knowing you can haggle your banks or anyone these days over anything and you should and budgeting.

No, you don't get what I'm saying - forget about the so called relative lag, you seem to be focussed on a "save only" scenario, there is no VS!!!
While I was saving in the early/hard days - the rule of thumb -10% of my earnings, I was still travelling, going out, buying stuff as well as paying bills! How does that happen in your save only scenario??
Savings can also turn into investments!!

Which brings me to human nature, you're a good indicator of it. I get that you're passionate and believe in this theory but if someone picks holes in your argument or disagrees, you're patronising or you talk about sniper rifles, har har.

Here you are on KB "canvasing" normal people, you think you're not going to get frustrated and angry if ever you try preaching in the real world to a majority of people that will pick holes and are simply not in agreement?
Anyway, I'm out. Got stuff to do. Goodluck :lol:

Basic Maths no? So turning your kids into financial whizz kids so that they can all grow up to be wall street bankers? (sarcasm just in case you missed it). You expect kids to take all of that in and have it lead their lives? What about all of these financial literates who got hammered with Credit Default Swaps (amongst other products)? They seem innocuous until they bite, exactly the same as every other financial product. Small print doesn't help etc... if you are confident that you can keep ahead financially. It's really that simple. By all means do the research, but don't expect that what you know is going to "save" you ;). If they don't have basic Maths, then they aren't going to be able to use a calculator, let alone work out compund interest and employ some form of actuarial calculation to balance the risks of market fluctuations in relation to their budget. The Maths is kind of important.

And what you're ignoring is the purchasing power of kids. Do they really have that much money to travel, go out, buy stuff, pay rent, buy food, pay the electric bills etc... and still save 10%? I'm not just looking at it from a saving perspective, hard as that may be for you to grasp (insert emoticon to denote a friendly demeanour whilst typing something that could be constreud as being patronising).

heh... what's wrong with fighting fire with fire? It serves a purpose. Am I frustrated? Ya see you, well not just you, do an awful lot of telling me how I must have been feeling at the time I wrote a post. If the tone of my post changes, that is generally by design. I agree there are a couple that get away from me, passionate about the subject etc... but 99% of the time, they're written with a clear head and toned for a purpose. Am I preaching? Ya see you, well not just you, do an awful lot of telling me how I must have been feeling at...... oh we've done that one. Why do you think I'm doing this on KB and not out in the real world? Call it an exploratory if you like and it has made a difference, thank you KB.
Have a lovely day (no sarcasm there, just a genuinly meant pleasantry).

[lakedaemonian]

Yeah .. right there .. you are right .. I'm not an economist I'm just a simple man trying to get by in this fucked up world...




Yeah - I agree .. and even worse .... apparently he refused to allow his daughter to marry the man she wanted to marry because he was "beneath her station" ... such an armchair revolutionary ..

I'm not a marxist .. I like his analysis - but not his solution ...

We're all just little squirrels trying to earn a nut for our families.....while the folks with the real influence and control shape the world to their advantage.

On the topic of parents role in financial education...my wife and I reckon it's almost entirely on us and practically no one else.

We're luck to have a school with some good teachers who don't overstep their responsibilities and push any particular agenda...other than agreeing with a need for individual/personal responsibility and accountability.

Real life skills are important.

Math/financial skills

Communication skills

Interpersonal skills.

I'd rather my kids get B's and C's in most traditional school curriculum as long as they get "A's" in life skills like Influencing and Negotiation.

We probably all know some incredibly smart polymaths, who can't even hold jobs as janitors because they completely lack interpersonal skills.

[avgas]

"This guy" is so clearly on the autistic spectrum it is not funny - an excellent portrayal of such a person ...
And I'll bet he earns way way more money than you or I ..
Considering 90% of the world share autistic traits I am more worried about the people who aren't autistic than the ones who are.
But i thought the argument was we were getting rid of money. Which means I have more time dedicated to testing my theories and building stuff that will only help myself.
Sure I will have to deal with those damn dirty common folk every now and then - horrible things those humans.

[avgas]

Have scientists working on sustainability instead of better ways of killing people....
Its governments that hold this up, not corporations.
Google Lanzatech if you don't believe me (there have been 100's of other kiwis who faced the same problem). NZ is not a clean green country - that is a marketing ploy.

[Ocean1]

NZ is not a clean green country - that is a marketing ploy.

Yes, there's marketing associated with the green image. But NZ is actually clean and green compared to most.

[avgas]

Yes, there's marketing associated with the green image. But NZ is actually clean and green compared to most.
My shit stinks slightly less than most - doesn't make it peanut butter.

[Ocean1]

My shit stinks slightly less than most - doesn't make it peanut butter.

Meh. Interminable bleating about humanity's shock horror use of the planet ignores the fact that humans are a natural effect too.

Be nice if the fuckers stopped short of extinctifying complete species though, and at least we can no longer claim ignorance.

[Tarded]

Mashman I just don't know what world you live in.
In my world As I said I have piles of applications for finance from people who are living beyond their means.
Not just the simple fact they need to borrow money to buy a $2000-15000 item but beyond their ability to repaythe loan itself.
Heres a couple of examples pulled at random from the stack
Earning $500 a week and current committments of $450 a week. Loan repayments of $40 a week. No allowance for car running costs/insurance etc.
Earning Decent money but 3 finance defaults in the past 2 years. No attempt to repay the debts despite being aware of them and having the money to repay them.
This is not as you seem to be saying about change of circumstances for the worse. This is just plain and simple bad money management.
I see 100 people with bad money management for every 1 I see due to change in circumstances.

people are "trapped" in a cycle of borrowing. At the bottom end you have those getting their pay or dole payments and ripping down to repay the loan at the shark at 28% interest.
At the other end you have people who "need" to top up their morgage to go on holiday or get the new car etc.

While you are obviously right to a point what about those of limited means who drive guzzlers, smoke and booze up regularly? No trap there - choices with govt funded or free ways to quit. If you WANT to.
Rich and dumb is rich and dumb. Rich and an arsehole who burns all the steps pver the bodies really stinks. Lombard finance?
Lombard - Lots Of Money But A Real Dick.

Try getting a mortgage and saying you have no debts (cause you actually dont) and th ebank gets all funny. You must owe on a car, TV etc.......... piss off. No money = no toy. Interest does not interest me at all. On depreciating assets.

Gee financial responsibility and living in my means even if that means not having that which others do and I covet. Not fuckin hard.

Suck it up people.

[Tarded]

We're all just little squirrels trying to earn a nut for our families.....while the folks with the real influence and control shape the world to their advantage.

On the topic of parents role in financial education...my wife and I reckon it's almost entirely on us and practically no one else.

We're luck to have a school with some good teachers who don't overstep their responsibilities and push any particular agenda...other than agreeing with a need for individual/personal responsibility and accountability.

Real life skills are important.

Math/financial skills

Communication skills

Interpersonal skills.

I'd rather my kids get B's and C's in most traditional school curriculum as long as they get "A's" in life skills like Influencing and Negotiation.

We probably all know some incredibly smart polymaths, who can't even hold jobs as janitors because they completely lack interpersonal skills.

Halle fuckin lujah.
I bet there is a rule against such practical parenting. Bloody kids with a sense of the value of a dollar.
Pfft, you will ruin NZ.

I spose you teach them to cook, budget, use basic hand tools and grow veges too. And that they are obliged to consider other road users no doubt. Disgusting.

You ought to be ashamed. I saw it on a reality show.
So it must be true. A chick with plastic tits and fake tan said so.

We all need to aspire to be like celebrities.

[mashman]

Now we can create schools of financial excellence and end up with the excellent school system that the US has. (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/17478228/charter-schools-get-the-green-light/#)... how do I go about getting govt funding to set up my own school?

[mashman]

Aye, ain't financial education a wonderful thing :blink:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C8x25ZkSFI&feature=youtu.be&a

[avgas]

Meh. Interminable bleating about humanity's shock horror use of the planet ignores the fact that humans are a natural effect too.
Be nice if the fuckers stopped short of extinctifying complete species though, and at least we can no longer claim ignorance.

We (NZ Government) built a solar grid (free power station) for the islands. I have been asking for one here for about 10 years.
You (personally) can insulation or grid-connected natural energy systems. No subsidy is provided if you wish to installed said things yourself. Every other nation on the planet as a subsidy for this. But instead we get subsidies for signing up for a carbon credit system. As system buy the way that you can no go outside, count your trees and enter (to claim credits). Don't even get me started on solar water in NZ.

We put snails in fridges......then leave them there.

We allow dangerous pests on conservation land so long as it is a pet.

We don't have a nation wide requirement to store rain water.

Our recycling is exported.

I could go on. But this list is bottomless. Currently the only thing going for NZ is the tiny population - otherwise we would be in worse crap than most.
Time will tell - when NZ is a 20 Million people country - our rubbish dumps will be 5 times as big, our power consumption will be 5 times as big, we will have 5 times as many cars......
Downward spiral. Even without the extinct wildlife.

[Ocean1]

We (NZ Government) built a solar grid (free power station) for the islands. I have been asking for one here for about 10 years.

Why? Are you not aware that the manufacture and disposal of PV cells is environmentally monumentally hideous?

As for the rest, yep we do some silly things, but you'll excuse me for pointing out that your average eco-warrior has done more harm than any number of evil corporate pirates. They're just so wrong so often and on so many fronts that anyone with the most basic scientific knowledge has long since switched off anything "eco".

That, and the propensity for any environmental discussion to rapidly degenerate into yet another environmental conspiracy theorist vs govt/corporate apologist slanging match, both sides arming themselves with increasingly imaginative supporting references.

Over it. I do my bit by refusing to buy business shirts with any associated packaging whatsoever and requiring shop staff to unpack anything else encased in plastic. And now that I think about it that alone has saved more planet than the TechNZ funded research project I provide consulting services to ever will.

Who ever figured it was a good idea to allow politicians anywhere near research budgets ffs?

[avgas]

Why? Are you not aware that the manufacture and disposal of PV cells is environmentally monumentally hideous?

As for the rest, yep we do some silly things, but you'll excuse me for pointing out that your average eco-warrior has done more harm than any number of evil corporate pirates. They're just so wrong so often and on so many fronts that anyone with the most basic scientific knowledge has long since switched off anything "eco".

That, and the propensity for any environmental discussion to rapidly degenerate into yet another environmental conspiracy theorist vs govt/corporate apologist slanging match, both sides arming themselves with increasingly imaginative supporting references.

Over it. I do my bit by refusing to buy business shirts with any associated packaging whatsoever and requiring shop staff to unpack anything else encased in plastic. And now that I think about it that alone has saved more planet than the TechNZ funded research project I provide consulting services to ever will.

Who ever figured it was a good idea to allow politicians anywhere near research budgets ffs?
Actually most eco-warriors are useless hobo's whom couldn't save the planet if they tried. They think if they smoke dope and complain about stuff that it will get fixed.

PV cells are only currently being used for 1/3 of their life before being replaced. This is due to a) increasing demand and b) decreasing efficiency. But if you reversed what I just said. What if we installed a plant to supply an area, then gave them a plan/goal where they had to decrease their demand over 10 years to 1/3 that they consume today? If they did - they would get free power.
This means that continuing the trend the fact that the PV cells lost their juice after 10 years would not matter as the demand would have also dropped. Meaning the PV plant could continue operation for 30 years rather than 10. Thus 2/3 less waste.
Also PV cells are currently being "landfilled" at the end of their life, which is silly as they could be either a building material or recycled using the ocean (95% silica, remaining are solid metals that are found at deep sea anyway). Why do we feel the need to bury rubbish on land? The ocean is a fantastic recycling mechanism for heavy stuff that doesn't have nasties.

As for creating PV cells. They now take 1/10 the resources they used to 10 years ago and are 5 times more efficient. Not saying they are perfect, far from it. As you mentioned earlier - why should this decision be in the hands of the politicians? When did they get Engineering degrees and work in the power industry for a few years?
When did they get phd's in science so they can determine what is valid?

I hope Lanzatech are doing well now..... Outside NZ....

[Banditbandit]

Who ever figured it was a good idea to allow politicians anywhere near research budgets ffs?

No-one but the politicians ..

Research is difficult to manage - especially as new ideas and new thinking only comes from the fringes and margins .. an area that politicans hate ... they want to put research firmly in the centre and manage it .. that will only fuck it up ...

[mashman]

I rest my case (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/17600535/kiwis-guilty-of-dopey-money-decisions/)

[Winston001]

"Kiwis Guilty of Dopey Money Decisions."


Which proves the case for teaching financial literacy Mashie. Glad you finally agree. :D

[mashman]

"Kiwis Guilty of Dopey Money Decisions."


Which proves the case for teaching financial literacy Mashie. Glad you finally agree. :D

you cheeky cheeky boy :spanking:

"The study shows that while New Zealanders have the knowledge to make good financial decisions, they often don't act on this knowledge". The Literacy exists, the will to ignore ones teachings isn't.

[Ocean1]

The Literacy exists, the will to ignore ones teachings isn't.

You're the only one that seems to think ignoring financial advice is a smart move.

Oh, and these losers: http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/8797667/Kiwis-must-be-responsible-for-own-investments

[mashman]

You're the only one that seems to think ignoring financial advice is a smart move.

Oh, and these losers: http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/8797667/Kiwis-must-be-responsible-for-own-investments

:facepalm: "The study shows that while New Zealanders have the knowledge to make good financial decisions, they often don't act on this knowledge". They're not ignoring the advice because they have the knowledge. However they are making their own minds up irrespective of the sense that surrounds their decision... but it is their decision. You miss that point entirely and call them losers when someone loses their money. I'm sure the Hanover, SCF, Strategic etc... all reputable finance company's. Were those investors losers too?

[Ocean1]

You miss that point entirely and call them losers when someone loses their money. I'm sure the Hanover, SCF, Strategic etc... all reputable finance company's. Were those investors losers too?

Of course they were, what the fuck would you call them, winners?



Kiwis must be responsible for own investments
New Zealanders need to be weaned off a "culture of blame and dependency" when financial investments go sour, the chief executive of the Financial Markets Authority has said.


And you reckon I missed the point FFS.

[scumdog]

You're the only one that seems to think ignoring financial advice is a smart move.

Oh, and these losers: http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/8797667/Kiwis-must-be-responsible-for-own-investments

Classic Kiwi Culture: "It's always somebody elses fault":yes:

[mashman]

Of course they were, what the fuck would you call them, winners?

And you reckon I missed the point FFS.

So a company suddenly goes under and people lose their money. Yet it's the fault of the people for investing in the company in the first place? Ok, I can accept that, but fuckin hell, unless you communicate with the owners/directors directly on a daily basis, you;re not going to know that the company is about to fail. I bet you the majority of those working in those institutions didn't know either.

Yup, you did, as per, you can only see as far as the end of your nose.

[scumdog]

So a company suddenly goes under and people lose their money. Yet it's the fault of the people for investing in the company in the first place?

Well not exactly 'their' fault - but you invest money - you take a risk.
After all, it is all about greed...you put forward your money, do nothing - and expect even more money.

Sounds too good to be true.

So you SHOULD accept it might be a fizzer...

[mashman]

Well not exactly 'their' fault - but you invest money - you take a risk.
After all, it is all about greed...you put forward your money, do nothing - and expect even more money.

Sounds too good to be true.

So you SHOULD accept it might be a fizzer...

I agree... although it ain't all out and out greed though, especially when everyone (well not everyone, but those with financial savvy, pffft) says that to save for your retirement you should invest for your dotage. As you say, that involves risk (t'would seem that the risk is there even if it's in a bank and your country gets into a mess) and people are encouraged to take that risk. Ahhhh, gambling by any other name.

Yup, bummer if it's a fizzer and whilst you are responsible for what you invest in, it's usually someone else's decisions that mean that you "win" or "lose". Tis a shame that that fallout fucks people's lives over. Seems silly to me that we would structure a society in such a way that people can lose everything they have worked hard for because a group of bankers around the globe plays fast and loose with some digits and pieces of paper. How evolved :facepalm:.

[Ocean1]

Yup, bummer if it's a fizzer and whilst you are responsible for what you invest in, it's usually someone else's decisions that mean that you "win" or "lose". Tis a shame that that fallout fucks people's lives over. Seems silly to me that we would structure a society in such a way that people can lose everything they have worked hard for because a group of bankers around the globe plays fast and loose with some digits and pieces of paper. How evolved :facepalm:.

Again with the bankers.

Wee tip for you:

Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.
This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

[Winston001]

Ah Hamlet-No-Mates, a worried dismal prince in a gloomy country. Not surprised he couldn't get a loan. :weep:


However lets be fair and acknowledge Mashie makes a good point when he questions a financial system which allowed Hanover, SCF, Strategic, Dominion, Provincial Finance etc to take money from trusting people and then evaporate it. In my experience these were not greedy people, they went to financial advisors who were supposed experts and followed their advice.

The risk premium offered by the finance companies before the collapse was only 2% above the banks which implied they were low risk. I recall Gareth Morgan saying at the time that the finance company rates were far too low but nobody listened.

Where it went wrong is some (only some) of these companies lent their depositors money to directors/shareholders who dabbled in property development etc. High risk stuff but it was hidden and not possible to know about.

SFC and Dominion were less blameworthy but got caught in the total collapse.

The central issue is there was dishonesty which should not have been possible if NZ had tough enough financial regulations. I saw all of this happen before (finance company collapse) in 1987 and naively thought the new rules protected investors. Hah! Live and learn.

[Ocean1]

However lets be fair and acknowledge Mashie makes a good point when he questions a financial system which allowed Hanover, SCF, Strategic, Dominion, Provincial Finance etc to take money from trusting people and then evaporate it. In my experience these were not greedy people, they went to financial advisors who were supposed experts and followed their advice.

Shysters have found ways around regulatory measures for all of recorded history. Accept the fact that any time you give someone else control of your money that there's a chance you'll lose it, and then decide.

As for mushmate; the bard's advice stands, if you don't like investment houses or banks then don't deal with them. Problem solved. Raving on about the inequities of "the financial system" as if the tiny percentage of shysters in the industry represent every monetary transaction is tiresome drivel.