The role of parents in financial education

[mashman]

Fuckin morons being fuckin morons because they're seriously fuckin moronic. (http://nz.finance.yahoo.com/news/role-parents-financial-education-112100894.html)

As a solution for not having financial crisis, this has to rank as THE #1 most idiotic idea I've heard of yet. Well, if we're all financially literate and we all decide to save for a rainy day/for our dotage, then who the fuck is going to buy anything?

If any of you believe this is a solution for mitigating financial crashes etc... please feel free to grab a moron sticker at the door on your way out.

Einstein :-

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them."

[Ocean1]

So teaching kids not to be greedy, gullible loan shark fodder is a bad idea, now.

Fuck you're getting further off the planet every day.

[mashman]

So teaching kids not to be greedy, gullible loan shark fodder is a bad idea, now.

Fuck you're getting further off the planet every day.

Kids are taught not to be greedy, yet they still turn into adults that indulge in the ever increasing practice of fucking people over for money (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ponzi_schemes). Fortunately the bigger ponzi running morons have the law on their side and the indoctrination of simple minded to perpetuate their schemes. The kids wouldn't have to run that gauntlet if the mechanism that is used to control the "system" wasn't there in the first place. I understand why that truth eludes you, so as promised:

http://stickerheads.com/images/MORONSTUPID45345.jpg

[Ocean1]

The simple minded in your picture are those that think there's a way to have toys other than working for them. And those who think the problems that causes can be blamed on "the system".

You obviously jumped queues when you immigrated, this place was built on hard working crofters, the whining ingrates and petty thieves are supposed to go to Australia.

[mashman]

The simple minded in your picture are those that think there's a way to have toys other than working for them. And those who think the problems that causes can be blamed on "the system".

You obviously jumped queues when you immigrated, this place was built on hard working crofters, the whining ingrates and petty thieves are supposed to go to Australia.

Of course you can have toys without working for them. It currently happens. "The system" is pooked. It may well have served a purpose once upon a time, but it's outdated and needs to be put out to pasture and replaced with something smarter. Something where work still takes place, but it isn't the cornerstone of the day for the majority. Something where we make what needs to be made and not what we think we can sell, because making what we think we can sell ignores the future use of precious resources and the rising needs of the population (gold plated iPad for instance). Is the gold plating really required? That's 1 amongst millions of examples of resource wastage. "They system" is wholly responsible for why things are as fucked up as they are, because people are operating within (mainly) the rules that govern your beloved supply and demand. Human beings are just operating within those rules. Change the rules and human beings will operate within the new rules, no biggy.

:killingme Yup, it WAS built on the blood sweat and tears of millions of people, and we piss all over their memory... and I work hard, but also see the wastage (time/effort/uber skills) in what I do. My time and effort is wasted, but I do it because I am paid to do so and "the system" requires my effort.

[Ocean1]

When you've worked as hard as my grandfather did for the benefits he earned I'll listen to how hard done by you are.

You can start by giving all your wasted resources to whoever you think needs them, then selling everything you own and giving that away as well. Until then I'll ignore you as the hypocrite you are.

[Oscar]

Of course you can have toys without working for them. It currently happens. "The system" is pooked. It may well have served a purpose once upon a time, but it's outdated and needs to be put out to pasture and replaced with something smarter. Something where work still takes place, but it isn't the cornerstone of the day for the majority. Something where we make what needs to be made and not what we think we can sell, because making what we think we can sell ignores the future use of precious resources and the rising needs of the population (gold plated iPad for instance). Is the gold plating really required? That's 1 amongst millions of examples of resource wastage. "They system" is wholly responsible for why things are as fucked up as they are, because people are operating within (mainly) the rules that govern your beloved supply and demand. Human beings are just operating within those rules. Change the rules and human beings will operate within the new rules, no biggy.

:killingme Yup, it WAS built on the blood sweat and tears of millions of people, and we piss all over their memory... and I work hard, but also see the wastage (time/effort/uber skills) in what I do. My time and effort is wasted, but I do it because I am paid to do so and "the system" requires my effort.


Why don't you opt out then?

Beside, what right do you have to tell people how to spend their hard earned?
By your own admission you don't vote, yet you pontificate on the inter-web about changing the system.
You're an eco-fascist, one of a growing bunch of arrogant blow hards who "just know better".
Talk is cheap, come back when you've given away your possessions or STFU.

[mashman]

When you've worked as hard as my grandfather did for the benefits he earned I'll listen to how hard done by you are.

You can start by giving all your wasted resources to whoever you think needs them, then selling everything you own and giving that away as well. Until then I'll ignore you as the hypocrite you are.

I'm not hard done by... but billions of people are. Amusing that you still think I want change for me.

Ahhhhhh, get out of jail free time eh. If you don't practice what you preach then you are a hypocrite? How can I practice what I preach when what I preach requires an entire society to be doing a similar thing? My so called hypocrisy is only hypocrisy because of your foolish ideology.

[mashman]

Why don't you opt out then?

Beside, what right do you have to tell people how to spend their hard earned?
By your own admission you don't vote, yet you pontificate on the inter-web about changing the system.
You're an eco-fascist, one of a growing bunch of arrogant blow hards who "just know better".
Talk is cheap, come back when you've given away your possessions or STFU.

You mean take the easy way out and leave the rest to fend for themselves. It's that kind of attitude that lands us where we are today. And to a certain extent, the green texted man knows it too. I will fight on as I have not done my best yet. Perhaps that day will come. Although I truly hope it doesn't.

I'm not telling anyone anything. Merely offering a, more sensible imho, alternative that will give everyone the opportunity to prosper... whilst addressing the big issues that the current system has been unable to since its inception.
I do and your translation of how I go about it has been noted. However when the words hit the screen, the attitude that you infer does not accompany them.
Oh please. Try again. I'm as much of an ecofascist as you are a woman from another planet.
Again? what is it with you guys and your insistence that I have to give everything away despite me wanting a system where the same stuff will exist? You really do miss the point of how "my" system will work. Bitterly disappointing as you seem to promote yourself as being smart... which, as it turns out, you're not. You have knowledge, nothing else.

Have a sticker and welcome to that club

http://stickerheads.com/images/MORONSTUPID45345.jpg

[Akzle]

Why don't you opt out then?

Beside, what right do you have to tell people how to spend their hard earned?
By your own admission you don't vote, yet you pontificate on the inter-web about changing the system.
You're an eco-fascist, one of a growing bunch of arrogant blow hards who "just know better".
Talk is cheap, come back when you've given away your possessions or STFU.

oh neat, the government provide the means to opt out of tax, their laws, society in general?
Pray tell, hows it done?

[puddytat]

Seems to me that you could call it a bunch of policy from any political party & in itself 'tis not a bad idea to have people think for themselves....but banksters are banksters. And its all about one thing or is it 2?
I dont think you need to give away your possesions, just free yourself from Debt . The rest is all yours. (well yeah nah)

[Oscar]

You mean take the easy way out and leave the rest to fend for themselves. It's that kind of attitude that lands us where we are today. And to a certain extent, the green texted man knows it too. I will fight on as I have not done my best yet. Perhaps that day will come. Although I truly hope it doesn't.

I'm not telling anyone anything. Merely offering a, more sensible imho, alternative that will give everyone the opportunity to prosper... whilst addressing the big issues that the current system has been unable to since its inception.
I do and your translation of how I go about it has been noted. However when the words hit the screen, the attitude that you infer does not accompany them.
Oh please. Try again. I'm as much of an ecofascist as you are a woman from another planet.
Again? what is it with you guys and your insistence that I have to give everything away despite me wanting a system where the same stuff will exist? You really do miss the point of how "my" system will work. Bitterly disappointing as you seem to promote yourself as being smart... which, as it turns out, you're not. You have knowledge, nothing else.

Have a sticker and welcome to that club



You're complaining about a suggestion that kids be taught financial literacy, then you're complaining about Ponzi schemes that rob the stupid and uneducated.
Then, after several hundred words of invective, you say you're not telling anyone anything (which is as close to the truth as you've ever come).

Dismantling the existing system is not an alternative, and due to your inability to communicate much beyond the half baked, you have nothing positive to offer.

Finally, being well informed and literate may make me smart, but I guess to be really clever, I'll have to learn how to post a sticker (which is grammatically incorrect by the way).

[Oscar]

oh neat, the government provide the means to opt out of tax, their laws, society in general?
Pray tell, hows it done?

No income, no tax.
Move somewhere where the authorities provide nothing.
Try Somalia.

[Oscar]

I'm not hard done by... but billions of people are. Amusing that you still think I want change for me.

Ahhhhhh, get out of jail free time eh. If you don't practice what you preach then you are a hypocrite? How can I practice what I preach when what I preach requires an entire society to be doing a similar thing? My so called hypocrisy is only hypocrisy because of your foolish ideology.

This gets to the nub of your mental health issues - how long have you considered yourself to be the one?
The only one in society with the answer?

We should all stop what we're doing because you say so?
I used to think you arrogant, but you're just another nutter with a Messiah Complex...

[Akzle]

No income, no tax.
Move somewhere where the authorities provide nothing.
Try Somalia.

sounds liek it involves giving a fuck. Which i dont.
Its also too far to walk.

And who gave the government authority over me?
Unfortunately, even without income, there is tax.
So how do i opt out. Practically.
(and why do you think the govt doesnt have an 'opt out' option. Hrmmmm?)

[scumdog]

sounds liek it involves giving a fuck. Which i dont.
Its also too far to walk.

And who gave the government authority over me?
Unfortunately, even without income, there is tax.
So how do i opt out. Practically.
(and why do you think the govt doesnt have an 'opt out' option. Hrmmmm?)

Excuse, excuses, you know you really want to live in Somalia, might need to beef up the tan though...

[Edbear]

sounds liek it involves giving a fuck. Which i dont.
Its also too far to walk.

And who gave the government authority over me?
Unfortunately, even without income, there is tax.
So how do i opt out. Practically.
(and why do you think the govt doesnt have an 'opt out' option. Hrmmmm?)

You give the Govt. authority over yourself. You don't have to earn any money if you don't want to, thereby you don't pay tax.

You don't have to drive a car, either, that is all your choice. You don't have to do anything you don't want to.

[mashman]

You're complaining about a suggestion that kids be taught financial literacy, then you're complaining about Ponzi schemes that rob the stupid and uneducated.
Then, after several hundred words of invective, you say you're not telling anyone anything (which is as close to the truth as you've ever come).

Dismantling the existing system is not an alternative, and due to your inability to communicate much beyond the half baked, you have nothing positive to offer.

Finally, being well informed and literate may make me smart, but I guess to be really clever, I'll have to learn how to post a sticker (which is grammatically incorrect by the way).

Ponzi schemes don't just rob the stupid and uneducated though. When someone decides to pull the money rug, even the most experienced financial gurus on the planet are left aghast. A certain Mr Greenspan springs to mind. On the face of it he was naive, in reality he knew exactly what he was doing, yet still plead ignorance. How utterly comforting.
Invective. Nice word to hide behind when the truth is a bit too close to home for ones liking.

When did I say I was going to dismantle the system? I'm going to use it to its fullest extent. My lack of communication is another mans lack of understanding. You obviously don't grasp the concept and seem to have no wont to because you believe that my lack of education, command of the english language and general demeanor are synonymous with the ravings of an left pinko ecofascist. That problem is entirely yours. There's nothing half-baked about "my" idea as it is a fully fledged concept that can be implemented any day of the week should TPTB embrace it or indeed should the people vote for it. It's much easier to implement than any of the financial alternatives I've read about so far and it's impact on life in general has many more positives than any financial alternative can deliver. However, and as I'm fully aware of, you can put in as much effort as you like into trying to understand it... but so far, you aren't even close with your smart assumptions.

You may well be the smartest person on the planet, but I'd venture that refusing to accept certain truth's and logic, irrespective of how the messenger communicates it, offers the opposite reality. I borrowed the sticker and take it for what it is.

[mashman]

This gets to the nub of your mental health issues - how long have you considered yourself to be the one?
The only one in society with the answer?

We should all stop what we're doing because you say so?
I used to think you arrogant, but you're just another nutter with a Messiah Complex...

:rofl: ahhhhhh yes, my delusions of grandeur. It's a hard cross to bear, fortunately though it'll be fleeting.
Nope, not the only one.

Quite the contrary.
:killingme... if I thought that'd work, ummmm, nah, that'd be self defeating (and that self is not myself).

[mashman]

You don't have to do anything you don't want to.

Then why are there laws to the contrary?

[Edbear]

Then why are there laws to the contrary?

The laws are for those who choose to live in our society, and those who want to buy stuff and use our public services and drive on our roads, etc...

You can choose to opt out, but it would be difficult to survive in NZ. Better to go somewhere where you can make your own rules.

[Madness]

The laws are for those who choose to live in our society, and those who want to buy stuff and use our public services and drive on our roads, etc...

You can choose to opt out, but it would be difficult to survive in NZ. Better to go somewhere where you can make your own rules.

I'm pretty sure I'd find that offensive if I were Maori but I'm not. As you were.

[Edbear]

I'm pretty sure I'd find that offensive if I were Maori but I'm not. As you were.

Aside from the fact that there are no pure blood Maori left, and given their European ancestry, are there any "Maori" who would care to comment?

All this racial crap is doing nothing for this country.

[Madness]

Aside from the fact that there are no pure blood Maori left, and given their European ancestry, are there any "Maori" who would care to comment?

Then this in the same post...


All this racial crap is doing nothing for this country.

Fucking brilliant Ed! :niceone:

[Edbear]

Then this in the same post...


Fucking brilliant Ed! :niceone:

Think about it... :weird:

By the standard for claiming to be Maori, I can claim to be Creole Indian. For Pete's sake, we are human beings, all of mixed heritage, there should be no racism.

[Madness]

:facepalm:

[Oscar]

Ponzi schemes don't just rob the stupid and uneducated though. When someone decides to pull the money rug, even the most experienced financial gurus on the planet are left aghast. A certain Mr Greenspan springs to mind.

You want to explain how Greenspan was involved in a Ponzi scheme?
And before you go off raving about "the system", don't bother - just tell me how the Fed Boss was involved in a Ponzi scheme.
Is it the drugs or some incipient brain damage that has you making these connections?

[mashman]

You want to explain how Greenspan was involved in a Ponzi scheme?
And before you go off raving about "the system", don't bother - just tell me how the Fed Boss was involved in a Ponzi scheme.
Is it the drugs or some incipient brain damage that has you making these connections?

Did I say that? Because I don't remember having said that. In fact looking back, I didn't say that at all.

NOW I'm laughing at you, could be the after affects of watching Ted (damn that was a fuckin funny movie "Back off Susan Boyle" 8.5/10 :killingme)... anyway, as mentioned, as I wasn't saying that Greenspan was involved in a Ponzi scheme. So it would seem that these connections you are making must be drug induced or some form of brain damage (which kinda makes sense) given your propensity for projection. Share the drugs mutha fucka.

[mashman]

The laws are for those who choose to live in our society, and those who want to buy stuff and use our public services and drive on our roads, etc...

You can choose to opt out, but it would be difficult to survive in NZ. Better to go somewhere where you can make your own rules.

But people can still do what they like right? You said so. So why bother having the laws? Why not just have a static list of sentences in response to crimes that abuse morality? and leave the question as to whether morality has been abused to judges. They shouldn't need laws for that. Such a backward retarded way to set the rules of society, especially when they can be wheedled out of on technicalities by those who choose to test the judges ability to translate the law to the letter.

As I've said, I don't want to opt out, but I certainly don't agree with some of the fucked up rules that get written as law. Especially when they protect money over human beings.

[Oscar]

Did I say that? Because I don't remember having said that. In fact looking back, I didn't say that at all.

NOW I'm laughing at you, could be the after affects of watching Ted (damn that was a fuckin funny movie "Back off Susan Boyle" 8.5/10 :killingme)... anyway, as mentioned, as I wasn't saying that Greenspan was involved in a Ponzi scheme. So it would seem that these connections you are making must be drug induced or some form of brain damage (which kinda makes sense) given your propensity for projection. Share the drugs mutha fucka.

You connected Greenspan to Ponzi in the same paragraph.

Given that you have propensity toward gibberish, it is understandable that you fail to make yourself clear , so perhaps you can tell us about that connection.

[mashman]

You connected Greenspan to Ponzi in the same paragraph.

Given that you have propensity toward gibberish, it is understandable that you fail to make yourself clear , so perhaps you can tell us about that connection.

Maybe this will clear it up (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/oct/24/economics-creditcrunch-federal-reserve-greenspan), I'm guessing it won't... but it's as far as I'm going to explain it to you.

Sigh. I cleared that up earlier, the issue is primarily yours.

[Winston001]

Think about it... :weird:

By the standard for claiming to be Maori, I can claim to be Creole Indian. For Pete's sake, we are human beings, all of mixed heritage, there should be no racism.

Actually Ed, there are solid evolutionary reasons for racism viz. mostly humans have existed as tribes/clans and other tribes/clans are regarded with suspicion. They are potentially dangerous. If they look different then they are even easier to identify and be suspicious of.

In modern civilisation we are inter-bred and understand racism is a primal response which is out of date.

[Oscar]

Maybe this will clear it up (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/oct/24/economics-creditcrunch-federal-reserve-greenspan), I'm guessing it won't... but it's as far as I'm going to explain it to you.

Sigh. I cleared that up earlier, the issue is primarily yours.

You cleared it up?
You repeated some half arsed catch phrase you saw on the web and now you can't explain it.
The only issue here is your apparent messiah complex.

[MIXONE]

Aside from the fact that there are no pure blood Maori left, and given their European ancestry, are there any "Maori" who would care to comment?

All this racial crap is doing nothing for this country.

Wrong.There are still full blooded maori in New Zealand.I have seen quite a few birth certificates that state "Maori Of Full Blood".

[jonbuoy]

I really don't understand your ramblings Mashman. It's always struck me as daft not to give kids some sort of idea about finance at school. Mortgages, interest rates, shares, planning for retirement, compound interest, credit card debt etc.... Are you worried your kids might know more than you do about it?

[Akzle]

You give the Govt. authority over yourself. You don't have to earn any money if you don't want to, thereby you don't pay tax.

You don't have to drive a car, either, that is all your choice. You don't have to do anything you don't want to.

i NEVER gave anyone authority over myself. But certain dicks in certain holdens seem fair insistent on things.

Anyway ed. Where would i stay, and how to pay for it?
(rates etc)

and how would i eat, since the govt has rules about who can have guns and what can be shot...

And youd be surprised how few places have parking for a horse now a days.

It seems, ed, you have managed to be an old dog, and learned surprisingly few tricks.

[mashman]

You cleared it up?
You repeated some half arsed catch phrase you saw on the web and now you can't explain it.
The only issue here is your apparent messiah complex.

I did.
I repeated a catchphrase eh? :yawn:
bwaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaa... then stop arguing and get following.

[mashman]

I really don't understand your ramblings Mashman. It's always struck me as daft not to give kids some sort of idea about finance at school. Mortgages, interest rates, shares, planning for retirement, compound interest, credit card debt etc.... Are you worried your kids might know more than you do about it?

It struck me similar too once upon a time, right before I realised that the ramifications of arming all kids with such financial knowledge would render the exercise moot and would do more damage than good. I can understand why people may believe that this is a great thing, but it's moronic to fool oneself into believing that financial knowledge will make a difference to how the world works, let alone that it will have a positive impact on spending etc... heh, I could care less if anyone knew anything more than I did on any given subject, which is a large part of my ramblings. Probably why you don't understand them, as your need to feel superior clouds your ability to think rationally. But that's ok, you're in good company, but that doesn't earn you a badge just yet.

Follow the theory of kids learning finance through and see what you end up with. You might want to save some time and take into account that the professionals aka banks, have recently fucked up quite severely.

[Edbear]

Wrong.There are still full blooded maori in New Zealand.I have seen quite a few birth certificates that state "Maori Of Full Blood".


i NEVER gave anyone authority over myself. But certain dicks in certain holdens seem fair insistent on things.

Anyway ed. Where would i stay, and how to pay for it?
(rates etc)

and how would i eat, since the govt has rules about who can have guns and what can be shot...

And youd be surprised how few places have parking for a horse now a days.

It seems, ed, you have managed to be an old dog, and learned surprisingly few tricks.

Try reading my post again but this time with comprehension. You choose to live in our society, your choice. If you want to live here you will be subject to the laws of this land. You want all the benefits without the responsibilities. Like I said, if you don't like it go somewhere else. How could I make it simpler for you?

[Edbear]

Wrong.There are still full blooded maori in New Zealand.I have seen quite a few birth certificates that state "Maori Of Full Blood".

I stand to be corrected, so how many and how old? If there are I would suspect a very small number.

[jonbuoy]

It struck me similar too once upon a time, right before I realised that the ramifications of arming all kids with such financial knowledge would render the exercise moot and would do more damage than good. I can understand why people may believe that this is a great thing, but it's moronic to fool oneself into believing that financial knowledge will make a difference to how the world works, let alone that it will have a positive impact on spending etc... heh, I could care less if anyone knew anything more than I did on any given subject, which is a large part of my ramblings. Probably why you don't understand them, as your need to feel superior clouds your ability to think rationally. But that's ok, you're in good company, but that doesn't earn you a badge just yet.

Follow the theory of kids learning finance through and see what you end up with. You might want to save some time and take into account that the professionals aka banks, have recently fucked up quite severely.


So we shouldn't teach kids politics because politicians fuck up all the time? How about just being able to give your kids a heads up about unscrupulous banks willing and able to drag you into more debt than you can pay back? How about teaching them about these companies that will loan you money to cover the shortfall in your monthly expenses but at interest rates of 1000% or more? How much money they can save in the long term by overpaying the mortgage instead of getting a new TV? Forewarned is forearmed. I don't think Im superior - your the one who seems to take great pleasure in cutting down other people's ideas- you know better than them?

[Ocean1]

Follow the theory of kids learning finance through and see what you end up with.

A lot fewer of them defaulting on poorly considered loans.

And no GFC.

Couldn't possibly get more obvious than that.

[mashman]

So we shouldn't teach kids politics because politicians fuck up all the time? How about just being able to give your kids a heads up about unscrupulous banks willing and able to drag you into more debt than you can pay back? How about teaching them about these companies that will loan you money to cover the shortfall in your monthly expenses but at interest rates of 1000% or more? How much money they can save in the long term by overpaying the mortgage instead of getting a new TV? Forewarned is forearmed. I don't think Im superior - your the one who seems to take great pleasure in cutting down other people's ideas- you know better than them?

How many politicians have a political degree? As the meme goes, if you're seeking political office, you probably shouldn't be allowed anywhere near it. Come on, kids know who to go to and who not to go to when it comes to getting a loan. When a bank knocks them back and the kids decide that they can maintain their payments for whatever they would like, then it's hardly surprising that they go elsewhere to get the cash. All of the financial understanding in the world isn't going to stop that from happening and at that point in time, even though it's going to cost them more, they are going to get what they can afford at that time. Tis like most things in life, when life changes and you get into the shit because you can no longer afford to make the payments (job loss), some dickhead always rock up and tell you that you were stupid to take the loan in the first place without considering how long you have successfully been repaying the loan. You didn't really give it any thought at all did you. Typical half-arsed knee-jerk response to something that looks like it's probably right, but with zero critical thought applied to validate how the theory. You, you've earned your sticker.

http://stickerheads.com/images/MORONSTUPID45345.jpg

As for superior, I don't cut ideas down without offering an alternative, and certainly not with any pleasure.



A lot fewer of them defaulting on poorly considered loans.

And no GFC.

Couldn't possibly get more obvious than that.

Fuck off. Who are you to tell people that they can't have what they want because they can afford it at the time and have made the decision to limit their lifestyle to have that which they want. What a moderately amusing comment given your ideology.

:killingme... You've already earned your sticker, no need to give you another.

Hook, line and sinker :facepalm:.

[Genestho]

Follow the theory of kids learning finance through and see what you end up with. You might want to save some time and take into account that the professionals aka banks, have recently fucked up quite severely.

Er :facepalm: what you end up with are adults that understand not to borrow over and above what they can't afford to pay back no matter what the economy's doing.
And I think you'll find that people that have this knowledge are just fine at the moment.

Saving doesn't mean no spending in the economy - it means very little personal debt owed to anyone.
20 years ago i started financial life with 10k that id saved on low wages, first deposit on a home that needed heaps of work, only the new roof and foundations were any good and the commute to work was tough, rates were at 13%.
20 years later ive bought and sold homes and property with a heckload of hard work, short mortgages and very little personal debt now, if any.

6 months ago I walked my son through a mortgage scenario on current lending rates.
His own conclusion to payment solutions was varied, but overall his own response was not to buy the 400k home, start small.
He's also saved a portion of his pocket money that he earns for two years so that he was able to afford a big ticket item.

I'm pretty happy with that and I know already he's on the path to financial literacy.
You see, somewhere a long the line people started ticking credit and letting it get so far out of hand, very much part of the problem we have now, not all, but almost preventable.
You are still in control of how your money works, well you should be, whether it's invisible or not.

[jonbuoy]

How many politicians have a political degree? As the meme goes, if you're seeking political office, you probably shouldn't be allowed anywhere near it. Come on, kids know who to go to and who not to go to when it comes to getting a loan. When a bank knocks them back and the kids decide that they can maintain their payments for whatever they would like, then it's hardly surprising that they go elsewhere to get the cash. All of the financial understanding in the world isn't going to stop that from happening and at that point in time, even though it's going to cost them more, they are going to get what they can afford at that time. Tis like most things in life, when life changes and you get into the shit because you can no longer afford to make the payments (job loss), some dickhead always rock up and tell you that you were stupid to take the loan in the first place without considering how long you have successfully been repaying the loan. You didn't really give it any thought at all did you. Typical half-arsed knee-jerk response to something that looks like it's probably right, but with zero critical thought applied to validate how the theory. You, you've earned your sticker.

http://stickerheads.com/images/MORONSTUPID45345.jpg

As for superior, I don't cut ideas down without offering an alternative, and certainly not with any pleasure.



Fuck off. Who are you to tell people that they can't have what they want because they can afford it at the time and have made the decision to limit their lifestyle to have that which they want. What a moderately amusing comment given your ideology.

:killingme... You've already earned your sticker, no need to give you another.

Hook, line and sinker :facepalm:.


Once again - utter nonsense. Most kids don't have a clue what 13% APR actually means. Choosing the right mortgage, loan, pension, life insurance, payment protection, is confusing for adults. A lot of kids wouldn't have a clue what any of it means unless their parents gave them some pointers.

From your line of thinking why bother to educate them at all- they will muddle through life one way or the other eventually. I think you need to print that badge out, stick it on your screen and read it before starting another of your bizarre threads.

[mashman]

Er :facepalm: what you end up with are adults that understand not to borrow over and above what they can't afford to pay back no matter what the economy's doing.
And I think you'll find that people that have this knowledge are just fine at the moment.

Saving doesn't mean no spending in the economy - it means very little personal debt owed to anyone.
20 years ago i started financial life with 10k that id saved on low wages, first deposit on a home that needed heaps of work, only the new roof and foundations were any good and the commute to work was tough, rates were at 13%.
20 years later ive bought and sold homes and property with a heckload of hard work, short mortgages and very little personal debt now, if any.

6 months ago I walked my son through a mortgage scenario on current lending rates.
His own conclusion to payment solutions was varied, but overall his own response was not to buy the 400k home, start small.
He's also saved a portion of his pocket money that he earns for two years so that he was able to afford a big ticket item.

I'm pretty happy with that and I know already he's on the path to financial literacy.
You see, somewhere a long the line people started ticking credit and letting it get so far out of hand, very much part of the problem we have now, not all, but almost preventable.
You are still in control of how your money works, well you should be, whether it's invisible or not.

Those adults are the tip of an iceberg, which really is my point. Yes there are plenty of people out there who push themselves to the edge of what they can repay, but at some point in time they have been able to make those payments. Things change in their life and everything falls apart and the finger wagging crowd start wagging their fingers saying how financially illiterate they are... where in all honesty, they've been fine and it's the unknown that has pushed them into the rock and hard place situation.

If we all start saving, then what happens to the economy? How many businesses will go under as people decide it's not worth while pushing themselves to their credit limit just in case they lose their job, or that inflation rises to a point where the bills suddenly become unmanageable where once they were. Being taught financial literacy and then applying it in perfect conditions is a lovely sentiment, but we never have perfect conditions. There are consequences to saving that are not part of people's every day financial literacy. Why are they not being taught? or even on the agenda for that matter? People saving = people losing jobs = people saving less = people being financially overexposed = more people in serious debt etc... It happened recently, you may have noticed and those at the helm were exceptionally financially literate. It shouldn't have happened.

Financial literacy is a bollocks catchphrase that too many are swallowing as some form of panacea, where there is empirical evidence that the financially literate fuck up every 10/15 years. The case of the Irish billionaire that lost over 4 billion euro springs to mind, SCF, Hannover Finance blah blah blah... all financially literate, yet they've plunged thousands of people into the shit through no fault of their own. It's bullshit and lies. Don't buy it.

[mashman]

Once again - utter nonsense. Most kids don't have a clue what 13% APR actually means. Choosing the right mortgage, loan, pension, life insurance, payment protection, is confusing for adults. A lot of kids wouldn't have a clue what any of it means unless their parents gave them some pointers.

From your line of thinking why bother to educate them at all- they will muddle through life one way or the other eventually. I think you need to print that badge out, stick it on your screen and read it before starting another of your bizarre threads.

One is moderately amused. The single question that most adults ask is, what is my payment going to be. Believe it or not, that is more than enough. In regards to cover, a simple question is, what does this not cover. A lot of kids can ask those questions and then figure out if they can afford the repayments. Job done!

Then you don't understand my line of thinking and refuse to see that even the experts fuck up. Ya see, it's not the knowledge, or lack of, that's the real danger. Can you grasp that concept? Once you have, factor in the number of people that have to struggle for a living, not because they have debts, but because they are not paid enough to cover the basics, let alone considering a mortgage that they'll never be able to afford because of the persistent rise in the cost of living and the persistent misnomer that growth is required for human beings to survive. I know you won't get that far, not sure if that's because you are incapable of doing so or not, or whether it's sheer bloody mindedness that has you defending an ultimately flawed system.

I ain't the one that needs the badge. Muddling through life should not be a punishable offence as it has been very successful for many people.

[Edbear]

Handling money is easy.

Save 10% of everything you earn. DO NOT TOUCH THIS MONEY! Save up and pay cash for basics, ie: do not put anything on HP unless it is sensible for business where you can claim GST and capital expenses. However even then, do not commit the business beyond its means and do not count your chickens before they hatch!

Do not commit more than 20% of income for major purchases such as a house.

All this requires is self-discipline and patience. Start as soon as you are old enough to earn money and continue through life. You will be rich and materially secure.

The sole reason for the GFC and anybody's financial disasters is greed and/or impatience. If you can afford to pay off on HP 30-50% more for a bike than it costs, you can afford to save up for it.

If my father had taught me this when I was young I would be rich by now. However I made the usual mistakes of wanting stuff now and booked them up on HP's. Took 25 years to get out of the crap.

[mashman]

In response to a deleted post:

I agree about the planning thing, said so in the OP. My question still stands. How does saving v's spending affect the economy?

I'm not saying that NO spending goes on, but if you're only going to buy the essentials because you are being prudent (rainy day/pension/whatever unexplained event etc...) then you're not going to be spending on iPads, phones, TV's, jewellery, new cars, houses etc... These "industry's" employ people and pay for those people using the funds that job public spends. If joe public isn't spending, what happens to the jobs? and what is the knock on affect etc...?

Investments are another thing entirely and I doubt there are that many people who can afford to invest as many people can't afford to save in the first place. They gambled and we bailed them out. Wrong on so many levels, but they had protection insurance, I'm over it.
And you're ignoring the real life scenario's of many others. If you had have listened to me 20 years ago, we wouldn't be having this conversation as money wouldn't exist and these issues wouldn't be a consideration that rule people's lives.

[Banditbandit]

Ata marie


You obviously jumped queues when you immigrated, this place was built on hard working crofters, the whining ingrates and petty thieves are supposed to go to Australia.


Sorry - many of them came to Godzone one step ahead of the law .. a whole lot more came here after escaping in Oz .. and even more came here after their sentence was up ...


I'm pretty sure I'd find that offensive if I were Maori but I'm not. As you were.

Yeah ... maybe ... It took me a while to figure out what you meant - aroha mai .. Monday morning-itis .. In the context it was said, then no ... it's tto that offensive ... but in general? Yes, I would find it offensive ...


Aside from the fact that there are no pure blood Maori left, and given their European ancestry, are there any "Maori" who would care to comment?

And just how many pure blooded Europeans are there then?


All this racial crap is doing nothing for this country.


No - I'm sorry but that's a one sided view .. along the lines of "You Māori should shut up because you're harming race relations" .. well sorry, race relations are pretty poor ... what that staement really means is "Shut up - you are pissing off us white people ..." Well Osrry .. but Māori are pissed off ..

[Edbear]

Ata marie

Sorry - many of them came to Godzone one step ahead of the law .. a whole lot more came here after escaping in Oz .. and even more came here after their sentnce was up ...

And just how many pure blooded Europeans are there then?

No - I'm sorry but that's a one sided view .. along the lines of "You Māori should shut up because you're harming race relations" .. well sorry, race relations are pretty poor ... what that staement really means is "Shut up - you are pissing off us white people ..." Well Osrry .. but Māori are pissed off ..

That is my point. I am a pure bred Kiwi; English, Scottish, Spanish, Danish, (royal family), Creole Indian and Irish. 4th-5th generation New Zealander. How could I possibly be racist?

The Treaty was signed between the Indigenous Maori signatories and the Crown and I have no issues with honouring the Treaty, it was a legal document.

What I have issues with is that so many claim their Maori heritage on the slightest of grounds to expect special treatment and/or to attack non-Maori as interlopers regardless.

With the pace at which the races integrated, why are not all NZ'rs cherishing their whole heritages? Most of those claiming their Maori heritage would be far less than half Maori blood and probably as much Scottish, Irish or English as I am, even Chinese, for pity's sake.

Like I said, racism is stupid!

[Oscar]

If we all start saving, then what happens to the economy? How many businesses will go under as people decide it's not worth while pushing themselves to their credit limit just in case they lose their job, or that inflation rises to a point where the bills suddenly become unmanageable where once they were. Being taught financial literacy and then applying it in perfect conditions is a lovely sentiment, but we never have perfect conditions. There are consequences to saving that are not part of people's every day financial literacy. Why are they not being taught? or even on the agenda for that matter? People saving = people losing jobs = people saving less = people being financially overexposed = more people in serious debt etc... It happened recently, you may have noticed and those at the helm were exceptionally financially literate. It shouldn't have happened.



This is where your ignorance becomes laughable.
Are you seriously saying that saving causes inflation and job losses?
Where do you think that the money goes? In a vault somewhere?
It gets put to work. One of NZ’s chronic long term economic problems is our low savings rate (particularly when compared to our trading partners like Japan and Australia). We lack the money for development so that our housing boom and business expansion ends up being funded by Belgian Dentists and Japanese Housewives. If anything adverse happens in these markets, the money dries up and then we experience unemployment and stagnation.


Maybe you should try and become financially literate before shooting yer mouth off..

[mashman]

This is where your ignorance becomes laughable.
Are you seriously saying that saving causes inflation and job losses?
Where do you think that the money goes? In a vault somewhere?
It gets put to work. One of NZ’s chronic long term economic problems is our low savings rate (particularly when compared to our trading partners like Japan and Australia). We lack the money for development so that our housing boom and business expansion ends up being funded by Belgian Dentists and Japanese Housewives. If anything adverse happens in these markets, the money dries up and then we experience unemployment and stagnation.

Maybe you should try and become financially literate before shooting yer mouth off..

Only because you can't/don't comprehend anything other than your own understanding... but let's see where the rest of your post takes us.
Nope. But people not spending does.
The money goes to many places, a large chunk of it goes towards paying off debt.
Oh dear. If the money is put to work and doesn't disappear into people's bank accounts, then can you explain to me how the money supply can dry up? You deserve your badge.

Maybe you should think in more holistic terms.

[mashman]

Still waiting for someone to explain to me how saving is good for the wider economy where growth relies on spending... and how being financially literate solves that problem.

[Oscar]

Only because you can't/don't comprehend anything other than your own understanding... but let's see where the rest of your post takes us.
Nope. But people not spending does.
The money goes to many places, a large chunk of it goes towards paying off debt.
Oh dear. If the money is put to work and doesn't disappear into people's bank accounts, then can you explain to me how the money supply can dry up? You deserve your badge.

Maybe you should think in more holistic terms.

People spending up large causes inflation.
That's the first true thing you've said.
Good for you.


You still appear to have no idea how the financial system works.
When money is tight it's because people aren't saving.
If people pay off debt (which many do as alternative to saving as the net return is better), where do you think that money goes? The money is available to be borrowed by someone else...

As for saving - how can money disappear into bank accounts?
Do you think the bank sticks it in a vault somewhere?
Under the mattress?
For someone who constantly wanks on about reforming the financial system, your understanding of it appears to based on a Scrooge McDuck comic.

[Banditbandit]

With the pace at which the races integrated, why are not all NZ'rs cherishing their whole heritages? Most of those claiming their Maori heritage would be far less than half Maori blood and probably as much Scottish, Irish or English as I am, even Chinese, for pity's sake.

Like I said, racism is stupid!

Yeah ... but blood quantum (or similar) is not a Māori idea ... that has always been a European-derived idea ... we do not buy into it .. if you are descended then you are one of us ... Blood quantum never matters to us ... it does, however, seem to matter to Pākehā ...

Of course we cherish our whole heritage - this is called Whakapapa ... and often we know it all ... a Māori friend of mine can tell you the English town his great grandfather emmigrated from, the street and house number ... How many Pākehā New Zealander's know that abotu their families?

[Banditbandit]

With the pace at which the races integrated, why are not all NZ'rs cherishing their whole heritages? Most of those claiming their Maori heritage would be far less than half Maori blood and probably as much Scottish, Irish or English as I am, even Chinese, for pity's sake.

Like I said, racism is stupid!

Yeah .. but blood quantum (or similar) is not a Māori idea ... that has always been a Eurepoean-derived idea ... we do not buy into it .. if you are descended then you are one of us ... Blood quantum never matters to us .. it does, however, seem to matter to Pākehā ...

Of course we cherish our whole heritage - this is called Whakapapa ... and often we know it all ... a Māori friend of mine can tell you the English town his great grandfather emmigrated from, the street and house number ... How many Pākehā New Zealander's know that abotu their families?

[scumdog]

Food for though plus true story.

In 'my day' you had to have 2/3 full price of a vehicle for the deposit if you wanted to buy it on H.P. (Unless it was a ute - then it was 1/2 the price for the deposit)
If you were under 20 years old (from memory!) you also needed parental consent as part of the H.P. agreement.

Then with deregulation at 17 you could walk in off the street and buy a car on H.P. with only $1 deposit. (hypotheticaly) and drive off - as long as you had a job.

True story: boy goes into Slick Sids car-yard, plunks down $500 and drives off in $5000 car, goes to Mags&Tyres and gets 17" blingy rims and low-profile tyres fitted - on tick
Then does the rounds of Mr Tint, Audio-shop etc and has tinted windows, killer sound system, body-kit etc - all also on 'tick'

Then about a year later the car looks scruffy, tyres are rooted, motor fumes, a couple of speakers blown etc.

So off he goes back to Slick Sids and uses this car as deposit for a newer, more powerful car, does the rounds of the accessory shops as before and now has a flash-as noisy new car to pull the chicks with (he hopes)..

And is still paying off the old car + the new one and the bits and bobs on tick.

Then one day gets some nasty news that let him know he is 20K in the poo, the interest rate and penalties are climbing - and he can't see how the hell on his Mac-wages he will ever be able to pay that amount off.

So he finds a tree branch, an electrical cord and ends it all...

Take from that what you will...

[Oscar]

Yeah .. but blood quantum (or similar) is not a Māori idea ... that has always been a Eurepoean-derived idea ... we do not buy into it .. if you are descended then you are one of us ... Blood quantum never matters to us .. it does, however, seem to matter to Pākehā ...

Of course we cherish our whole heritage - this is called Whakapapa ... and often we know it all ... a Māori friend of mine can tell you the English town his great grandfather emmigrated from, the street and house number ... How many Pākehā New Zealander's know that abotu their families?

It's actually quite interesting that white New Zealanders are often very concerned with their Whakapapa.
I don't know how many I've met who claim to be related to the Old Kings of Ireland or Scottish Royalty or who claim to be full blooded Cornishmen, and so on..the same as every Aussie has a relo who was on the first fleet.

My take on this is that the Europeans who landed here were desperate to get away from the class system, and that the English, Welsh and Scots who were in the vanguard to NZ were solid yeomanry (basicall one level above a peasant). Their descendants therefore lack any heritage and either guild the lily and/or are jealous of those who can trace their lineage back many generations...

[Edbear]

Yeah .. but blood quantum (or similar) is not a Māori idea ... that has always been a Eurepoean-derived idea ... we do not buy into it .. if you are descended then you are one of us ... Blood quantum never matters to us .. it does, however, seem to matter to Pākehā ...

Of course we cherish our whole heritage - this is called Whakapapa ... and often we know it all ... a Māori friend of mine can tell you the English town his great grandfather emmigrated from, the street and house number ... How many Pākehā New Zealander's know that abotu their families?

Maybe it is a European thing.

I do regret that I don't have any Maori blood, as being more recent to my genes means I would not be so pasty white! While the Spanish does come out in some of us it is not really enough to give us that nice olive colour and it is more the English and Scottish ancestry that colours our skins.

I guess I just deplore that there is such a racist attitude on both "sides" when there really are no "sides" to take.

[Oscar]

Food for though plus true story.

In 'my day' you had to have 2/3 full price of a vehicle for the deposit if you wanted to buy it on H.P. (Unless it was a ute - then it was 1/2 the price for the deposit)
If you were under 20 years old (from memory!) you also needed parental consent as part of the H.P. agreement.

Then with deregulation at 17 you could walk in off the street and buy a car on H.P. with only $1 deposit. (hypotheticaly) and drive off - as long as you had a job.

True story: boy goes into Slick Sids car-yard, plunks down $500 and drives off in $5000 car, goes to Mags&Tyres and gets 17" blingy rims and low-profile tyres fitted - on tick
Then does the rounds of Mr Tint, Audio-shop etc and has tinted windows, killer sound system, body-kit etc - all also on 'tick'

Then about a year later the car looks scruffy, tyres are rooted, motor fumes, a couple of speakers blown etc.

So off he goes back to Slick Sids and uses this car as deposit for a newer, more powerful car, does the rounds of the accessory shops as before and now has a flash-as noisy new car to pull the chicks with (he hopes)..

And is still paying off the old car + the new one and the bits and bobs on tick.

Then one day gets some nasty news that let him know he is 20K in the poo, the interest rate and penalties are climbing - and he can't see how the hell on his Mac-wages he will ever be able to pay that amount off.

So he finds a tree branch, an electrical cord and ends it all...

Take from that what you will...

Your Slick Sid wouldn't stay in business very long.
When that car was repo'ed (as it inevitably would), it would be the dealer, not the finance company making up the shortfall. There were cowboys like Slick Sid, but the recourse clause in most dealer’s finance agreements tended to make them quite careful with HP.

Edit - On reflection, I bet Sid had the kid's parents g'tee the loan...

[Edbear]

Food for though plus true story.

In 'my day' you had to have 2/3 full price of a vehicle for the deposit if you wanted to buy it on H.P. (Unless it was a ute - then it was 1/2 the price for the deposit)
If you were under 20 years old (from memory!) you also needed parental consent as part of the H.P. agreement.

Then with deregulation at 17 you could walk in off the street and buy a car on H.P. with only $1 deposit. (hypotheticaly) and drive off - as long as you had a job.

True story: boy goes into Slick Sids car-yard, plunks down $500 and drives off in $5000 car, goes to Mags&Tyres and gets 17" blingy rims and low-profile tyres fitted - on tick
Then does the rounds of Mr Tint, Audio-shop etc and has tinted windows, killer sound system, body-kit etc - all also on 'tick'

Then about a year later the car looks scruffy, tyres are rooted, motor fumes, a couple of speakers blown etc.

So off he goes back to Slick Sids and uses this car as deposit for a newer, more powerful car, does the rounds of the accessory shops as before and now has a flash-as noisy new car to pull the chicks with (he hopes)..

And is still paying off the old car + the new one and the bits and bobs on tick.

Then one day gets some nasty news that let him know he is 20K in the poo, the interest rate and penalties are climbing - and he can't see how the hell on his Mac-wages he will ever be able to pay that amount off.

So he finds a tree branch, an electrical cord and ends it all...

Take from that what you will...

Then you have the case of the 18 year old who was bought a new Audi and wrote it off, so his parents replaced it with another new one.

Parents do need to teach their kids about fiscal responsibility, (or even personal responsibility), as Slick Sid sure won't! I bet Slick Sid was sad that the boy topped himself, too.

[Edbear]

Your Slick Sid wouldn't stay in business very long.
When that car was repo'ed (as it inevitably would), it would be the dealer, not the finance company making up the shortfall. There were cowboys like Slick Sid, but the recourse clause in most dealer’s finance agreements tended to make them quite careful with HP.

Edit - On reflection, I bet Sid had the kid's parents g'tee the loan...

That was the reason for the GFC. The banks got greedy and loaned 120% of the value of the houses counting on continued inflation to take care of it! Have enough of those loans fall over and the bank is in trouble.

[mashman]

People spending up large causes inflation.
That's the first true thing you've said.
Good for you.


You still appear to have no idea how the financial system works.
When money is tight it's because people aren't saving.
If people pay off debt (which many do as alternative to saving as the net return is better), where do you think that money goes? The money is available to be borrowed by someone else...

As for saving - how can money disappear into bank accounts?
Do you think the bank sticks it in a vault somewhere?
Under the mattress?
For someone who constantly wanks on about reforming the financial system, your understanding of it appears to based on a Scrooge McDuck comic.

Only people spending up large? come on, you're the expert, give us the rest.
Not true at all.
Meh.

I have enough of an idea of how it works to realise that it doesn't. There being recessions etc... highlights that it doesn't work.
What a moronically stupuid thing to say. When money is tight, people save. Again, your system has highlighted that very fact. People aren't spending and are saving and we're seeing the economic impact of that.
There's never a shortage of money to borrow. Banks pluck it out of thin air and add interest. Do they print the interest too? is is that left to the economy to produce :killingme. Just in case you miss why I'm laughing, they're creating more money with more interest to pay off the money that has been created with interest on it. Common sense says that as a planet there is never any credit without even more debt. So if everyone pays off their debts, then who's going to pay off the interest that that debt was created with? Then when they've paid off their debt why would they need to borrow? when they're going to be better off buying without credit that is.

So you're not going to answer the question: "If the money is put to work and doesn't disappear into people's bank accounts, then can you explain to me how the money supply can dry up?". So when money is sitting in the bank, how is it productive for the economy? other than any capital gain made? Does it in fact suck more from the economy?
They stick it in a computer.
Some stick it under the mattress.
Sigh... oh magical magical financial system, how hard it is to understand they mythical ways :facepalm:. Carry on making shit up as you go, it's farkin amusing.

[Banditbandit]

In 'my day' you had to have 2/ ...


Bwhahaha . they say that every dog has his day ... is this an indiction that you've had yours .. ???

(Not a comment o the rest of your post .. just what went through my brain when I read those words ...)

[Banditbandit]

Your Slick Sid wouldn't stay in business very long.
When that car was repo'ed (as it inevitably would), it would be the dealer, not the finance company making up the shortfall. There were cowboys like Slick Sid, but the recourse clause in most dealer’s finance agreements tended to make them quite careful with HP.

Edit - On reflection, I bet Sid had the kid's parents g'tee the loan...

Lots of companies follow Scummy's Slick Sid example .. one in Hawke's Bay called "We Want You autos" .. advertised for people with a poor credit records, beneficiares, etc etc .. drive away with only $1 deposits ... I'l bet heaps did ... and then ticked up the new mags, the paiotn job ... etc etc ..

The ar dealers were using shoddy finance conmpanies ... who consequently went broke because the people never paid off the loans .. why on earth they loaned money t o peoppel with poor credit ratings is beyond me ... they have poor credit ratings for a reason ..

[Banditbandit]

Look - I agrere that we should teach our kids financial literacy ... but really, how many parents actually have that and can teach their kids? We can't even agree on what it is let alone what to teach .. what about the parents who don't have it?

Second, our consumer society, fuelled by mass advertising (which works) pushes the "buy now" message ...

Third,. the Baby Boomers (many of us) grew up with The Bomb (remember The Bomb) ..and we dd not even know if there was going to be a tomorrow ... let alone save for it ... coupled with the consumerism pushed by advertisng, that's a powerful message ...

And finally why not be greedy ??? Our GOvernmetn just was ... They sold Mighty River Power shares at $2.50 ... some people said they had undervalued the price .. but the answer was "let the market decide" .. .. and people expected the price to rise ... well the market has decided .. today they aere trading at $2.47 .. below the Government price ... and they have been lower ..

So did our Government rip off the peope who bought the shares? I thik they did .. Greedy bastards took the people for whatever they thought they could get ..

[Oscar]

That was the reason for the GFC. The banks got greedy and loaned 120% of the value of the houses counting on continued inflation to take care of it! Have enough of those loans fall over and the bank is in trouble.

It was worse than that.
Those loans were "securitised" - the loans were insured, bundled up and sold on, say nine good loans and one crap one in every ten.
That was why one of the first to get into trouble was AIG (at that time, the wolrd's largest insurer), and it had to be bailed out by the US Govt. (otherwise, if the insurer croaked, it would take dozens of banks with it).

[Banditbandit]

And then the Government forces students to tick up part of the costs of their eduction ...


Great moddelling aye ...

[Oscar]

Only people spending up large? come on, you're the expert, give us the rest.
Not true at all.
Meh.

I have enough of an idea of how it works to realise that it doesn't. There being recessions etc... highlights that it doesn't work.
What a moronically stupuid thing to say. When money is tight, people save. Again, your system has highlighted that very fact. People aren't spending and are saving and we're seeing the economic impact of that.
There's never a shortage of money to borrow. Banks pluck it out of thin air and add interest. Do they print the interest too? is is that left to the economy to produce :killingme. Just in case you miss why I'm laughing, they're creating more money with more interest to pay off the money that has been created with interest on it. Common sense says that as a planet there is never any credit without even more debt. So if everyone pays off their debts, then who's going to pay off the interest that that debt was created with? Then when they've paid off their debt why would they need to borrow? when they're going to be better off buying without credit that is.

So you're not going to answer the question: "If the money is put to work and doesn't disappear into people's bank accounts, then can you explain to me how the money supply can dry up?". So when money is sitting in the bank, how is it productive for the economy? other than any capital gain made? Does it in fact suck more from the economy?
They stick it in a computer.
Some stick it under the mattress.
Sigh... oh magical magical financial system, how hard it is to understand they mythical ways :facepalm:. Carry on making shit up as you go, it's farkin amusing.

Merely saying things like "not true at all" (and I was quoting what you said, by the way) and "Banks pluck it out of thin air.." does not make them true.

You might want to make your (somewhat addled) mind up about the money supply. At one point you say that banks pluck it out of thin air, and then you speak about the supply drying up. Why don't the banks just print some more?

I'm interested in why you think the money supply has dried up - we have record low mortgage interest rates and it concerns the Reserve Bank Gov. so much that he's considering minimum deposits.

The money supply drys up when people or banks are spooked by some condition and/or find summat better.
The reason we are currently experiencing a low interest enviroment is that since 2008 the money has moved from Europe.

[mashman]

Merely saying things like "not true at all" (and I was quoting what you said, by the way) and "Banks pluck it out of thin air.." does not make them true.

You might want to make your (somewhat addled) mind up about the money supply. At one point you say that banks pluck it out of thin air, and then you speak about the supply drying up. Why don't the banks just print some more?

I'm interested in why you think the money supply has dried up - we have record low mortgage interest rates and it concerns the Reserve Bank Gov. so much that he's considering minimum deposits.

The money supply drys up when people or banks are spooked by some condition and/or find summat better.
The reason we are currently experiencing a low interest enviroment is that since 2008 the money has moved from Europe.

A document that was published by the IMF was on the telly saying that banks could do that very thing. It's true!

You said "It gets put to work. One of NZ’s chronic long term economic problems is our low savings rate (particularly when compared to our trading partners like Japan and Australia). We lack the money for development so that our housing boom and business expansion ends up being funded by Belgian Dentists and Japanese Housewives. If anything adverse happens in these markets, the money dries up and then we experience unemployment and stagnation.", then I asked "If the money is put to work and doesn't disappear into people's bank accounts, then can you explain to me how the money supply can dry up? You deserve your badge.". As per usual, you run and hide when you've got nothing... and then you claim you're intelligent, that you understand how it works :facepalm:. Your powers are weak old man. Or your memory is failing.

:killingme... looks like a failing memory is indeed the winner. I truly hope you get better dude.

That's one of many reasons that the money supply has dried up. If people aren't borrowing, the economy will suffer. If people aren't spending, the economy will suffer. If people aren't saving, the economy will suffer. If people have nothing to borrow against, have nothing left to spend and have nothing to save, then how is the economy going to react do you think? As some point in time we'll hit that saturation point. Prices are rising and eating into what little "disposable" income people have (at least 3 people on my street are in that position). They can't spend on anything "extra"... and that includes payment protections etc... as they're the first to go when times are tough. Denying that it won't happen because we teach kids to be more financially aware is ignoring the wider economic implications.

[mashman]

Food for though plus true story.

In 'my day' you had to have 2/3 full price of a vehicle for the deposit if you wanted to buy it on H.P. (Unless it was a ute - then it was 1/2 the price for the deposit)
If you were under 20 years old (from memory!) you also needed parental consent as part of the H.P. agreement.

Then with deregulation at 17 you could walk in off the street and buy a car on H.P. with only $1 deposit. (hypotheticaly) and drive off - as long as you had a job.

True story: boy goes into Slick Sids car-yard, plunks down $500 and drives off in $5000 car, goes to Mags&Tyres and gets 17" blingy rims and low-profile tyres fitted - on tick
Then does the rounds of Mr Tint, Audio-shop etc and has tinted windows, killer sound system, body-kit etc - all also on 'tick'

Then about a year later the car looks scruffy, tyres are rooted, motor fumes, a couple of speakers blown etc.

So off he goes back to Slick Sids and uses this car as deposit for a newer, more powerful car, does the rounds of the accessory shops as before and now has a flash-as noisy new car to pull the chicks with (he hopes)..

And is still paying off the old car + the new one and the bits and bobs on tick.

Then one day gets some nasty news that let him know he is 20K in the poo, the interest rate and penalties are climbing - and he can't see how the hell on his Mac-wages he will ever be able to pay that amount off.

So he finds a tree branch, an electrical cord and ends it all...

Take from that what you will...

Bummer. Similar happens with the CSA. Guys get into financial trouble through losing jobs etc... and kill themselves because they can't handle whatever they can't handle. Just another one of those lovely things that money does to people. Such a stupidly disappointing way to run a society.

[mashman]

It was worse than that.
Those loans were "securitised" - the loans were insured, bundled up and sold on, say nine good loans and one crap one in every ten.
That was why one of the first to get into trouble was AIG (at that time, the wolrd's largest insurer), and it had to be bailed out by the US Govt. (otherwise, if the insurer croaked, it would take dozens of banks with it).

It was worse than that.
The loans had been passed on with such frequency, being bundled and unbundled, that no one actually knew who owned what.
Yet teaching kids financial literacy will stop that? Pulease.

[Genestho]

In response to a deleted post:

my apologies, my post wasn't showing what I had down, went back to cut and paste and the same thing happened, i had to dash - so delete it was.

I agree about the planning thing, said so in the OP. My question still stands. How does saving v's spending affect the economy?

There is no vs, if you go back and read what I wrote you'll see the word, portion :)
While one is saving for a rainy day or big ticket item, another is spending their savings on a rainy day or big ticket item.
In the world's population it's all relative. Why would you assume you have to spend or save when you can do both??????
Again, saving reduces personal debt, which in turn has a positive effect.

I'm not saying that NO spending goes on, but if you're only going to buy the essentials because you are being prudent (rainy day/pension/whatever unexplained event etc...) then you're not going to be spending on iPads, phones, TV's, jewellery, new cars, houses etc... These "industry's" employ people and pay for those people using the funds that job public spends. If joe public isn't spending, what happens to the jobs? and what is the knock on affect etc...?

See above :)

Investments are another thing entirely and I doubt there are that many people who can afford to invest as many people can't afford to save in the first place. They gambled and we bailed them out. Wrong on so many levels, but they had protection insurance, I'm over it.

Good for you, now do something in real life about it. We're waiting

You are talking about a minority of unethical people, investment is needed, how else do the other 99.9% of businesses exist, and people do well out of Investments if they plan exit scenarios...which will vary.

And you're ignoring the real life scenario's of many others. If you had have listened to me 20 years ago, we wouldn't be having this conversation as money wouldn't exist and these issues wouldn't be a consideration that rule people's lives.
Well no I'm not, what I'm saying is, is that we all have choices some leave us kicking ourselves and handing over your money to someone else to grow for you is silly, it's a steep learning curve. Been there myself, live and learn aye.
If I had listened to you 20 years ago, I would be broken arsed today, no doubt about it. And again I don't agree with your moneyless idea because I don't think you understand economics to begin with and you can't plan around facets of human nature, end of.


Those adults are the tip of an iceberg, which really is my point. Yes there are plenty of people out there who push themselves to the edge of what they can repay, but at some point in time they have been able to make those payments. Things change in their life and everything falls apart and the finger wagging crowd start wagging their fingers saying how financially illiterate they are... where in all honesty, they've been fine and it's the unknown that has pushed them into the rock and hard place situation.

If we all start saving, then what happens to the economy? How many businesses will go under as people decide it's not worth while pushing themselves to their credit limit just in case they lose their job, or that inflation rises to a point where the bills suddenly become unmanageable where once they were. Being taught financial literacy and then applying it in perfect conditions is a lovely sentiment, but we never have perfect conditions.
Mmm back to old fashioned financial planning aye
There are consequences to saving that are not part of people's every day financial literacy. Why are they not being taught? or even on the agenda for that matter? People saving = people losing jobs = people saving less = people being financially overexposed = more people in serious debt etc... It happened recently, you may have noticed and those at the helm were exceptionally financially literate and unethical, It was sadly bound to happen.
Fixed;)
Financial literacy is a bollocks catchphrase that too many are swallowing as some form of panacea, where there is empirical evidence that the financially literate fuck up every 10/15 years. The case of the Irish billionaire that lost over 4 billion euro springs to mind, SCF, Hannover Finance blah blah blah... all financially literate, yet they've plunged thousands of people into the shit through no fault of their own. It's bullshit and lies. Don't buy it.

You're arguing with a real life scenario, not just one mind, that proves your argument wrooooong.

Don't buy it? Lol too late, bro!
Already living the dream. Good luck:lol:

[Oscar]

A document that was published by the IMF was on the telly saying that banks could do that very thing. It's true!

You said "It gets put to work. One of NZ’s chronic long term economic problems is our low savings rate (particularly when compared to our trading partners like Japan and Australia). We lack the money for development so that our housing boom and business expansion ends up being funded by Belgian Dentists and Japanese Housewives. If anything adverse happens in these markets, the money dries up and then we experience unemployment and stagnation.", then I asked "If the money is put to work and doesn't disappear into people's bank accounts, then can you explain to me how the money supply can dry up? You deserve your badge.". As per usual, you run and hide when you've got nothing... and then you claim you're intelligent, that you understand how it works :facepalm:. Your powers are weak old man. Or your memory is failing.

:killingme... looks like a failing memory is indeed the winner. I truly hope you get better dude.

That's one of many reasons that the money supply has dried up. If people aren't borrowing, the economy will suffer. If people aren't spending, the economy will suffer. If people aren't saving, the economy will suffer. If people have nothing to borrow against, have nothing left to spend and have nothing to save, then how is the economy going to react do you think? As some point in time we'll hit that saturation point. Prices are rising and eating into what little "disposable" income people have (at least 3 people on my street are in that position). They can't spend on anything "extra"... and that includes payment protections etc... as they're the first to go when times are tough. Denying that it won't happen because we teach kids to be more financially aware is ignoring the wider economic implications.



You are obviously an idiot, so I'll type this slowly.
What you said was: People saving = people losing jobs = people saving less = people being financially overexposed = more people in serious debt etc...
This is simply not true, and certainly doesn't constitute "the money supply drying up". Notwithstanding that, the money supply doesn't dry up, it just goes somewhere else.

Now you're reversing your postion and saying that people aren't saving and that's why the economy is suffering.
People (obviously) don't save when times are hard because they have no money. When times are good, they save and/or pay off debt, which frees up money for investment.

Teach your kids that saving is better than borrowing, and that paying off debt is generally better than saving.
That's so obvious that I'd hoped a fool like you could appreciate it.
I was wrong...

[gwigs]

http://www.learningmarkets.com/understanding-the-fractional-reserve-banking-system/


Fractional reserve banking...money out of thin air...
No wonder the system is fucked and doomed to failure..:(

[Oscar]

It was worse than that.
The loans had been passed on with such frequency, being bundled and unbundled, that no one actually knew who owned what.
Yet teaching kids financial literacy will stop that? Pulease.

So you would just allow your kids to accept what the nice banker said?
You wouldn't give them the tools to assess their ability to repay?
The knowledge to minimise the cost of debt (like shortening the standard terms offered on a mortgage, thereby saving great swags of interest)?

You kids will be as uneducated as you obviously are, and prey for the wolves in suits.

[Oscar]

http://www.learningmarkets.com/understanding-the-fractional-reserve-banking-system/


Fractional reserve banking...money out of thin air...
No wonder the system is fucked and doomed to failure..:(

That assumes that people are borrowing money to deposit it in another bank rather than purchasing something with it.

[Banditbandit]

That assumes that people are borrowing money to deposit it in another bank rather than purchasing something with it.

No .. it's just the reverse ..

Say I put $100,000 into the bank .. I have $1000,000 in the bank ..

Say the bank loans $90,000 to someone who wants to buy ahouse .. they buy the house and have a $90,000 house ...

Fractional banking says that I have an asset worth $100,000 and the otrher person has an asset worth $90,000 - so $190,000 assets out of $100,000. The bank, hloding both, hold both - they have my $100,000 and the house (as they can reposses it at will) .. so the bank has $190,000 on its assets base ... it's the bank with the massive increase - not us, the poor twits who give our banks money ...


Got that clear ?

Now the reality is that the person who owns the house also has a $90,000 liablity which cancels out the $90,000 asset.

And the second reality is that the bank can only give me back my $100,000 if the other person pays back the money .. othereaise the banks is fucked .. and actually the bank has the liability as well - they owe me $90,000 ... (the other 10 grand is still in the bank .. )

[gwigs]

That assumes that people are borrowing money to deposit it in another bank rather than purchasing something with it.

Banks do it all the time...

[Oscar]

Got that clear ?

Now the reality is that the person who owns the house also has a $90,000 liablity which cancels out the $90,000 asset.

And the second reality is that the bank can only give me back my $100,000 if the other person pays back the money .. othereaise the banks is fucked .. and actually the bank has the liability as well - they owe me $90,000 ... (the other 10 grand is still in the bank .. )

Ah, memories of Accounting 101 - I almost went to sleep again...

[gwigs]

You cleared it up?
You repeated some half arsed catch phrase you saw on the web and now you can't explain it.
The only issue here is your apparent messiah complex.


<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Zjz16xjeBAA?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Hes just a naughty boy..:bleh:

[mashman]

my apologies, my post wasn't showing what I had down, went back to cut and paste and the same thing happened, i had to dash - so delete it was.

S'alright, there's was nothing of any real note in it anyway was there :innocent:



There is no vs, if you go back and read what I wrote you'll see the word, portion
While one is saving for a rainy day or big ticket item, another is spending their savings on a rainy day or big ticket item.
In the world's population it's all relative. Why would you assume you have to spend or save when you can do both??????
Again, saving reduces personal debt, which in turn has a positive effect.



Good for you, now do something in real life about it. We're waiting

You are talking about a minority of unethical people, investment is needed, how else do the other 99.9% of businesses exist, and people do well out of Investments if they plan exit scenarios...which will vary.

It takes time. I'll get there.

They may be a minority, but they do the majority of damage to society. All good that people are looking after themselves, but the money they are earning is doing damage somewhere else.



Well no I'm not, what I'm saying is, is that we all have choices some leave us kicking ourselves and handing over your money to someone else to grow for you is silly, it's a steep learning curve. Been there myself, live and learn aye.
If I had listened to you 20 years ago, I would be broken arsed today, no doubt about it. And again I don't agree with your moneyless idea because I don't think you understand economics to begin with and you can't plan around facets of human nature, end of.

And you're saying that economics takes into account human behaviour? I understand economics fine thanks and I use it just about every day of my life, as do many other people. Turning it into some mythical science is disengenius to say the least. If you could grasp the concept of how the moneyless society worked, you wouldn't see human nature (human nature doesn't exist, it's learned behaviour) as there being a problem.



The fixed bit

So everyone that was invoved was unethical? And no matter what financial system rules and regs are in place those same temptations will be there... after all, there was nothing illegal about their activity's where there?



You're arguing with a real life scenario, not just one mind, that proves your argument wrooooong.

Don't buy it? Lol too late, bro!
Already living the dream. Good luck

A real life scenario. Care to explain why millions/billions of people go hungry? That's a real scenario, one that you don't want sorted it would seem.

You still didn't answer the original question though. Given that your scenario has been a successful one, apply that to every "kid" and tell me what the likely economic outcome is going to be... after all, you say I don't understand economics, so you must.

[mashman]

You are obviously an idiot, so I'll type this slowly.
What you said was: People saving = people losing jobs = people saving less = people being financially overexposed = more people in serious debt etc...
This is simply not true, and certainly doesn't constitute "the money supply drying up". Notwithstanding that, the money supply doesn't dry up, it just goes somewhere else.

Now you're reversing your postion and saying that people aren't saving and that's why the economy is suffering.
People (obviously) don't save when times are hard because they have no money. When times are good, they save and/or pay off debt, which frees up money for investment.

Teach your kids that saving is better than borrowing, and that paying off debt is generally better than saving.
That's so obvious that I'd hoped a fool like you could appreciate it.
I was wrong...

I'll type this slowly for you too.
What you are quoting is absolutely true, the GFC was proof. I never said that that was the money supply drying up, you did.

Now you're splicing A and Spandex together to make an argument, which whilst massively amusing, has me concerned that you shouldn't really be allowed out on the road.

I saved. You're wrong! When times are good they spend. You're wrong again!

And yet another one who has been unable to extrapolate what that would mean in economic terms should they all do the same thing. It's simple. Saving/Not spending = no customers for many businesses = job losses catch 22.

And you call me a fool :facepalm:.

[mashman]

So you would just allow your kids to accept what the nice banker said?
You wouldn't give them the tools to assess their ability to repay?
The knowledge to minimise the cost of debt (like shortening the standard terms offered on a mortgage, thereby saving great swags of interest)?

You kids will be as uneducated as you obviously are, and prey for the wolves in suits.

Have you got a frame of reference for that question?
EASY. You earn X, the repayment is Y, do you have that left at the end of the week. Done! Their choice from then on in.

In comparison to your offerings so far, I'm a fuckin bonafide genius. I will teach my kids to be a person of value, not a person of financial success.

[mashman]

That assumes that people are borrowing money to deposit it in another bank rather than purchasing something with it.

:killingme... you need to hit the books that were printed post 1920 mate.

[mashman]

Hes just a naughty boy..:bleh:

When's my punishment


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pezss6Splks

[gwigs]

Have you got a frame of reference for that question?
EASY. You earn X, the repayment is Y, do you have that left at the end of the week. Done! Their choice from then on in.
I will teach my kids to be a person of value, not a person of financial success.
+ 1 on that my friend..:niceone:

[jonbuoy]

One is moderately amused. The single question that most adults ask is, what is my payment going to be. Believe it or not, that is more than enough. In regards to cover, a simple question is, what does this not cover. A lot of kids can ask those questions and then figure out if they can afford the repayments. Job done!

Then you don't understand my line of thinking and refuse to see that even the experts fuck up. Ya see, it's not the knowledge, or lack of, that's the real danger. Can you grasp that concept? Once you have, factor in the number of people that have to struggle for a living, not because they have debts, but because they are not paid enough to cover the basics, let alone considering a mortgage that they'll never be able to afford because of the persistent rise in the cost of living and the persistent misnomer that growth is required for human beings to survive. I know you won't get that far, not sure if that's because you are incapable of doing so or not, or whether it's sheer bloody mindedness that has you defending an ultimately flawed system.

I ain't the one that needs the badge. Muddling through life should not be a punishable offence as it has been very successful for many people.

Your opinion right or wrong that the current financial system is flawed has nothing to do with educating kids to survive in an environment where they have to live in that very system. Educating people to make the most from their incomes small or large can only help in the long run. If you chose a mortgage purely on the lowest monthly payments even though you could afford to pay back a little more - you made the wrong choice.

[Banditbandit]

Fuck - I've spent my whole life being a rebel and an outsider ...

People keep giving me well paid jobs and throwing money at me ..

What the fuck am I doing wrong ???

[mashman]

Your opinion right or wrong that the current financial system is flawed has nothing to do with educating kids to survive in an environment where they have to live in that very system. Educating people to make the most from their incomes small or large can only help in the long run. If you chose a mortgage purely on the lowest monthly payments even though you could afford to pay back a little more - you made the wrong choice.

Bullshit. It has everything to do with the current system, including, but not limited to, food, water, having a roof, giving a shit about others, profit over people etc... Perhaps you will answer, with some form of detail, why you believe that educating kids in regards to income/debt/saving etc... will pay dividends in the long run? I want to know what will happen to the economy if everyone is financially educated and uses that education. Coz using your logic thus far, your outcome is that there is no debt. That is impossible given that every cent/digit in circulation was created with a debt (interest) attached to it. You can't borrow $1 and be expected to pay back $1.10 when only $1 exists.

As for your wrong choice... if I'd rather have a mortgage that I can pay back over many years whilst having the money to enjoy a motorcycle at the same time, then I've made the right choice. You fuckers just want people trussed up as nothing but income earners for some bizarre reason. Kinda fascist even.


Fuck - I've spent my whole life being a rebel and an outsider ...

People keep giving me well paid jobs and throwing money at me ..

What the fuck amd I doing wrong ???

Splitter...

[Akzle]

i woke up this morning thinking "hey, KB is missing something... AHA! an "Ocean v. mashy re: money" thread!
and here it is in it's full glory.

so i'll sumarise for all you dicks who don't get it:
mashy is mostly right, and ocean is mostly wrong. you can all go back to whatever you were doing before this thread interrupted your enjoyment of KB. move along now...


Try reading my post again but this time with comprehension. You choose to live in our society, your choice. If you want to live here you will be subject to the laws of this land. You want all the benefits without the responsibilities. Like I said, if you don't like it go somewhere else. How could I make it simpler for you?
no jackass, just because i disagree with you, does not mean i lack comprehension.
1) i DO NOT choose to live in "your society" - quite the opposite.
2) "here" ed? i happen to be here, have no way of going anywhere else, yada yada yada.
3) who owns the land, ed? who has the supreme claim to planet fucking earth, and can thus make "law"?
is it a bunch of arrogant white fucks in wellington? i don't reckon.
4) what benefits do i want ed? i want to be left the fuck alone to do my own shit. how difficult is that?
5) why should i have to go anywhere? god put me here, so here i am. who has an authority above god to tell me to move? you?

...
....
.....
....
...

BWHAHAHAHAHHA. no ed. you don't. you're not of god, you're not it's representative and you don't have it's auhority to tell me to fuck off.
me, however, am godly as fuck. so fuck off.


And no GFC.

Couldn't possibly get more obvious than that.
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol:

you don't really get it at all, d'ya?


That is my point. I am a pure bred Kiwi; English, Scottish, Spanish, Danish, (royal family), Creole Indian and Irish. 4th-5th generation New Zealander. How could I possibly be racist?

The Treaty was signed between the Indigenous Maori signatories and the Crown and I have no issues with honouring the Treaty, it was a legal document.

What I have issues with is that so many claim their Maori heritage on the slightest of grounds to expect special treatment and/or to attack non-Maori as interlopers regardless.

With the pace at which the races integrated, why are not all NZ'rs cherishing their whole heritages? Most of those claiming their Maori heritage would be far less than half Maori blood and probably as much Scottish, Irish or English as I am, even Chinese, for pity's sake.

Like I said, racism is stupid!
no, white cunts are stupid (mashy et al, you're honorary black today).
legal = white.
document, also pretty white.
pakeha = DEFINITELY interlopers.

why not take your good monetised democratic system and fuck off, and see how well NZ gets on without you lot?



Where do you think that the money goes? In a vault somewhere?
no, under the mattress in my caravan...


You still appear to have no idea how the financial system works.
...prove it. from what i've seen so far, it's only fucking jews that win at the end of the day.



You might want to make your (somewhat addled) mind up about the money supply. At one point you say that banks pluck it out of thin air, and then you speak about the supply drying up. Why don't the banks just print some more?
err. they do? and when i say "they" i do mean the jewIMF. and that guy, that hacked that bank, and made some money up.... it's all numbers, there's a complex calculation based on how many registered persons are available to exploit per area of land, roughly defined by "countries" and managed by "governments"

but fuck it, i'm not going ot argue with you. you keep going to work, pay your fucking taxes and i'll keep bludging them. after all, it really is a good system.

[Genestho]

S'alright, there's was nothing of any real note in it anyway was there :innocent:
Oh there was :)

It takes time. I'll get there.
Sure ya will honey.

They may be a minority, but they do the majority of damage to society. All good that people are looking after themselves, but the money they are earning is doing damage somewhere else.
Society damages itself.


And you're saying that economics takes into account human behaviour? I understand economics fine thanks and I use it just about every day of my life, as do many other people. Turning it into some mythical science is disengenius to say the least. If you could grasp the concept of how the moneyless society worked, you wouldn't see human nature (human nature doesn't exist, it's learned behaviour) as there being a problem.
Mmmm the point is you dont understand economics enough to [be in a position] to offer a better solution AND that you can't plan around human nature.
You've displayed your lack of financial understanding on many threads here. Disagree that it's soley learned behaviour but then we've been there before aye.


So everyone that was invoved was unethical? And no matter what financial system rules and regs are in place those same temptations will be there... after all, there was nothing illegal about their activity's where there?

A real life scenario. Care to explain why millions/billions of people go hungry? That's a real scenario, one that you don't want sorted it would seem.

Where did i say I didn't want it sorted?
Being a slacktivist on KB sure as heck ain't sorting it and given your communications, I'm not convinced you really have enough of a heart when you knock hard workers with your "rich prick" attitude.

I'm sure you know as well as I do, the issues for poverty are varied, from the very basic upwards...and given how easy it is to be unethical, or make bad financial or otherwise decisions, we will see this no matter what we do.

You still didn't answer the original question though. Given that your scenario has been a successful one, apply that to every "kid" and tell me what the likely economic outcome is going to be... after all, you say I don't understand economics, so you must.

The original question where? You made a sweeping statement added with petty insults aimed at those that don't agree with your vision? A Troll aye. Nothing you could write now would convince me that your motives are pure. Crying shame really.

If you mean the q in your latest reply?
How can I tell you what the outcome would be? The only experience I have is my own, I'm not every parent and every kid is not my own.

But I can (again), make a general statement that saving a portion of income reduces personal debt, it's not rocket science.
Teaching kids how to make smart financial decisions instead of creating never ending debt staves the wolves away.

Saving doesn't mean cutting your own throat - you can do both, it also ensures a good time is had! Pride intact! :clap:

[Akzle]

I'm sure you know as well as I do, the issues for poverty are varied, from the very basic upwards...and given how easy it is to be unethical, or make bad financial or otherwise decisions, we will see this no matter what we do.

nope. the reasons for poverty is just one: money.

more specifically, not having it.

or did i miss something?

[gwigs]

[/COLOR]






[COLOR="#139922"]
no, white cunts are stupid (mashy et al, you're honorary black today).
legal = white.
document, also pretty white.
pakeha = DEFINITELY interlopers.




283304

[scumdog]

.. if I'd rather have a mortgage that I can pay back over many years whilst having the money to enjoy a motorcycle at the same time, then I've made the right choice. ...

Bugger that - given the option I wouldn't have a mortgage - fuck paying the bank interest for 20 years or so..

(BTW: Hence why I don't have a mortgage)

[mashman]

Oh there was

You're telling me what was of note? Not very nice.



Sure ya will honey.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.



Mmmm the point is you dont understand economics enough to offer a better solution AND that you can't plan around human nature.
You've displayed your lack of understanding on many threads here. Disagree that it's soley learned behaviour but then we've been there before aye.

Again with the assumptions in regards to what I know. Got any proof? The solution I offer does 1 main thing to begin with, everything else remains unchanged. So everything can keep working as it is until we decide otherwise.
In which case it shouldn't be hard to find an example.




Where did i say I didn't want it sorted?
Being a slacktivist on KB sure as heck ain't sorting it and given your communications, I'm not convinced you really have enough of a heart when you knock hard workers with your "rich prick" attitude.

I'm sure you know as well as I do, the issues for poverty are varied, from the very basic upwards...and given how easy it is to be unethical, or make bad financial or otherwise decisions, we will see this no matter what we do.

Oh noes, did I make an assumption, one that is based on you believing that the financial economy after hundreds of years will finally address poverty? The solution to poverty is simple, in fact the green texted man has given the answer. If you threw as much money as is required to deal with poverty, it would be sorted. That makes you look naive. Yes there are many factors, but the food is there, the logistics is there, the manpower is there, the money isn't, end of!

As for my communications, perhaps you're reading them incorrectly, oh, here we go, yup confirmation as I'm not knocking the workers at all, and I don't have a "rich prick" attitude. Your issue m'dear, not mine. My slacktivisim is serving its purpose and I have stated as such before... you must have missed the memo, so here goes: My slacktivism is canvassing "normal" people and gauging what the likely arguments I would have to face should I finally get to that point where I start communicating with people face to face. Also, I can communicate more ways than one, true story.

I can do this without the KB 'tude if you would prefer?



The original question where? You made a sweeping statement added with petty insults aimed at those that don't agree with your vision? A Troll aye. Nothing you could write now would convince me that your motives are pure. Crying shame really.

If you mean the q in your latest reply?
How can I tell you what the outcome would be? The only experience I have is my own, I'm not every parent and every kid is not my own.

But I can (again), make a general statement that saving a portion of income reduces personal debt, it's not rocket science.
Teaching kids how to make smart financial decisions instead of creating never ending debt staves the wolves away.

Saving doesn't mean cutting your own throat - you can do both, it also ensures a good time is had! Pride intact!

From the OP


Well, if we're all financially literate and we all decide to save for a rainy day/for our dotage, then who the fuck is going to buy anything?

I've yet to receive an answer. Oh dear, this is KB, insults are part and parcel of the delivery. Try looking past them and you may even find civility... just sayin like. No troll.

Nothing I could write eh. Would I trade my life for a world as I see it. With my last heartbeat. I swear that on my children's lives. You can bet your arse that I R serious about it, your choice.

Extrapolate. If you understand economics as you claim then there should be no issue. No one buying anything they they deem "frivolous" means that those industry's will collapse. The economic effects are far reaching. Not sure if you're trolling or not wanting to go there, but that is a reality given that financial responsibility is brought to bear.

True. You can do both, but there will be a consequence to that financial responsibility

[jonbuoy]

Bullshit. It has everything to do with the current system, including, but not limited to, food, water, having a roof, giving a shit about others, profit over people etc... Perhaps you will answer, with some form of detail, why you believe that educating kids in regards to income/debt/saving etc... will pay dividends in the long run? I want to know what will happen to the economy if everyone is financially educated and uses that education. Coz using your logic thus far, your outcome is that there is no debt. That is impossible given that every cent/digit in circulation was created with a debt (interest) attached to it. You can't borrow $1 and be expected to pay back $1.10 when only $1 exists.

As for your wrong choice... if I'd rather have a mortgage that I can pay back over many years whilst having the money to enjoy a motorcycle at the same time, then I've made the right choice. You fuckers just want people trussed up as nothing but income earners for some bizarre reason. Kinda fascist even.



Splitter...

It will pay dividends for THEM in the long run -the money will stay in their pockets and not be wasted on interest and be swallowed by the greedy banks. I don´t want my kids trussed up paying interest to banks. People entering adulthood are not always made aware by their parents of facts like these. As an example if you borrow 200,000 over 35 years at 4% interest you will hand over to the bank 171,000 in interest and your payments will be 885/month. The same loan over 25 years instead and your monthly payment increases by 170 to 1055 a month but you only pay 116,703 in interest.

You just saved 54,297 in interest - AND you paid back your mortage 10 years earlier. If you carried on putting that 1055 a month away just in your own account as if you were still paying your mortgage in 10 years you would have 126,660 in cash towards your retirement. So now you "gained" 180,957 by simply putting away an extra 170/month.

If you just stuck with the lower mortgage payment over a longer period of time and put away that 170/month mortgage payment difference you would only have around 61,000 saved.




http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/pfloansandcredit/creditdebt/8123674/buy-now-pay-later-explained

http://credit.about.com/od/usingcreditcards/qt/minimumonly.htm

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/mortgages/mortgage-overpayment-calculator

[mashman]

no, white cunts are stupid (mashy et al, you're honorary black today).
legal = white.
document, also pretty white.
pakeha = DEFINITELY interlopers.

why not take your good monetised democratic system and fuck off, and see how well NZ gets on without you lot?


YAY, go me... if that's ok with you massa

[mashman]

283304

waaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa... that about sums it up.

[mashman]

Bugger that - given the option I wouldn't have a mortgage - fuck paying the bank interest for 20 years or so..

(BTW: Hence why I don't have a mortgage)

Whoopdee go you. I'm going for having money now so that we, as a family, can enjoy ourselves a little and insuring myself so that when I die the family will get the house paid off and half a million in the bank too. I get most of what I gave the bank back ;).. well, my family will coz I'll be dead, no biggy.

[mashman]

It will pay dividends for THEM in the long run -the money will stay in their pockets and not be wasted on interest and be swallowed by the greedy banks. I don´t want my kids trussed up paying interest to banks. People entering adulthood are not always made aware by their parents of facts like these. As an example if you borrow 200,000 over 35 years at 4% interest you will hand over to the bank 171,000 in interest and your payments will be 885/month. The same loan over 25 years instead and your monthly payment increases by 170 to 1055 a month but you only pay 116,703 in interest.

You just saved 54,297 in interest - AND you paid back your mortage 10 years earlier. If you carried on putting that 1055 a month away just in your own account as if you were still paying your mortgage in 10 years you would have 126,660 in cash towards your retirement. So now you "gained" 180,957 by simply putting away an extra 170/month.

If you just stuck with the lower mortgage payment over a longer period of time and put away that 170/month mortgage payment difference you would only have around 61,000 saved.

WOW that is awesome, and if 1 million people did that, there's be 170,000,000 less money going into the economy each month. I know getting back to my original point is tacky considering this is KB, but how many jobs would be lost with that money not flowing through the economy?

You do realise that there are calculators on bank websites that calculate that stuff for you too... honest indian.

[scumdog]

Whoopdee go you. I'm going for having money now so that we, as a family, can enjoy ourselves a little and insuring myself so that when I die the family will get the house paid off and half a million in the bank too. I get most of what I gave the bank back ;).. well, my family will coz I'll be dead, no biggy.


So now you've added the cost of life insurance to the interest costs?

Anyhoo, paying off the house quick-smart pays big dividends, bigger than most realise IMHO.

[mashman]

So now you've added the cost of life insurance to the interest costs?

Anyhoo, paying off the house quick-smart pays big dividends, bigger than most realise IMHO.

In financial terms, yes it does. But that money could also be used for taking my kids swimming, or to the movies, or paying for petrol to take the bikes for a ride, or for paying for new shoes, new clothes, school trips, school fees etc... No contest!

[jonbuoy]

WOW that is awesome, and if 1 million people did that, there's be 170,000,000 less money going into the economy each month. I know getting back to my original point is tacky considering this is KB, but how many jobs would be lost with that money not flowing through the economy?

You do realise that there are calculators on bank websites that calculate that stuff for you too... honest indian.

It will get spent eventually - just not by the banks. Its your choice to give money to the banks in interest - I´ll bet you´ll be one of the first to moan and mutter about rich pricks when the guy next doors buys a brand new boat to celebrate his retirement despite the fact he has earned the same as you but been more careful. My point is that even a relatively small overpayment in interest can make a huge difference maximising your "spend now money" doesnt always make good sense - you need a balance - something young adults should be made aware of. Not all bank managers will tell you it.

[mashman]

It will get spent eventually - just not by the banks. Its your choice to give money to the banks in interest - I´ll bet you´ll be one of the first to moan and mutter about rich pricks when the guy next doors buys a brand new boat to celebrate his retirement despite the fact he has earned the same as you but been more careful. My point is that even a relatively small overpayment in interest can make a huge difference maximising your "spend now money" doesnt always make good sense - you need a balance - something young adults should be made aware of. Not all bank managers will tell you it.

Why would I moan about what someone else has? I'm too busy with what too many don't have. My dad had a boat, well, 2, my sister went to one of the best schools in the UK, my step mother was from a well off family, I became my own man and went straight to the bottom of the pile. I've seen both ends of the scale, I've dined with serious millionaires and eaten frugally with some of Glasgow's real people, they're night and day in regards to how life is lived yet they both live. Irrespective of financial education, we still have recession, we still have large sums of money being lost through what was once a solid investment that has turned bad. I have made my decision as to how my mortgage will be paid off and I choose that extra bit of life that I can give for my kids. It's my choice, not the smarmy bank managers job.

I assume you don't want to eradicate poverty either?

[Fergus]

WOW that is awesome, and if 1 million people did that, there's be 170,000,000 less money going into the economy each month. I know getting back to my original point is tacky considering this is KB, but how many jobs would be lost with that money not flowing through the economy?


NEWSFLASH: banks are part of the economy (and an integral and influential part at that).

Some financial education might do you some good:msn-wink:

[jonbuoy]

Why would I moan about what someone else has? I'm too busy with what too many don't have. My dad had a boat, well, 2, my sister went to one of the best schools in the UK, my step mother was from a well off family, I became my own man and went straight to the bottom of the pile. I've seen both ends of the scale, I've dined with serious millionaires and eaten frugally with some of Glasgow's real people, they're night and day in regards to how life is lived yet they both live. Irrespective of financial education, we still have recession, we still have large sums of money being lost through what was once a solid investment that has turned bad. I have made my decision as to how my mortgage will be paid off and I choose that extra bit of life that I can give for my kids. It's my choice, not the smarmy bank managers job.

I assume you don't want to eradicate poverty either?

How do you make these bizarre connections? From me agreeing with the idea that children should be given some idea about managing money at school (a critical life skill) you assume I don´t want to see poverty irradiated? How does that even work - please explain. The smarmy bank manager is quite happy for you to give him as much interest as possible - educating kids that loan interest is wasted money can only be a good thing for THEM as individuals.

[mashman]

NEWSFLASH: banks are part of the economy (and an integral and influential part at that).

Some financial education might do you some good:msn-wink:

I've muddled through fine so far. Plenty of hardwork thrown in for good measure too :shit:, yup, go figure. Honestly, it needn't be so hard given that the end goal is to survive and get on as well as possible with our fellow man to advance our shared cause ommmmmmmmm

[mashman]

How do you make these bizarre connections? From me agreeing with the idea that children should be given some idea about managing money at school (a critical life skill) you assume I don´t want to see poverty irradiated? How does that even work - please explain. The smarmy bank manager is quite happy for you to give him as much interest as possible - educating kids that loan interest is wasted money can only be a good thing for THEM as individuals.

Meh. So the bank gets some money. Technically it's theirs anyway and as we have seen in regards to Cyprus, it can be taken away from you too. I ain't gonna sweat it.

In regards to poverty, if you wanted rid of it, you would do whatever it took. The financial system has proven that it has been incapable of doing so for thousands of years. Oddly enough, "my" system can get rid of poverty virtually overnight. Given those two FACTS and given that you choose the current system over mine, I can only deduce that you do not want to rid poverty from the face of the planet (amongst many many other HUGE positives for mankind). It isn't a great leap from one to the other in regards to the connection given that the limiting factor and excuse that we constantly here is, there's no budget... however you live in a lovely fluffy world where poverty is someone else's problem. Oddly enough we can make poverty a thing of the past should we wish to of course. I'm ready for that, are you?

[gwigs]

Meh. So the bank gets some money. Technically it's theirs anyway and as we have seen in regards to Cyprus, it can be taken away from you too. I ain't gonna sweat it.

In regards to poverty, if you wanted rid of it, you would do whatever it took. The financial system has proven that it has been incapable of doing so for thousands of years. Oddly enough, "my" system can get rid of poverty virtually overnight. Given those two FACTS and given that you choose the current system over mine, I can only deduce that you do not want to rid poverty from the face of the planet (amongst many many other HUGE positives for mankind). It isn't a great leap from one to the other in regards to the connection given that the limiting factor and excuse that we constantly here is, there's no budget... however you live in a lovely fluffy world where poverty is someone else's problem. Oddly enough we can make poverty a thing of the past should we wish to of course. I'm ready for that, are you?

Where do I sign up..? We are are all people on a tiny planet and we dont share the resources...?
Why do some suffer while some live in luxury we couldnt dream about...balance is all out ... its our planet..evryone should have a say

[jonbuoy]

Meh. So the bank gets some money. Technically it's theirs anyway and as we have seen in regards to Cyprus, it can be taken away from you too. I ain't gonna sweat it.

In regards to poverty, if you wanted rid of it, you would do whatever it took. The financial system has proven that it has been incapable of doing so for thousands of years. Oddly enough, "my" system can get rid of poverty virtually overnight. Given those two FACTS and given that you choose the current system over mine, I can only deduce that you do not want to rid poverty from the face of the planet (amongst many many other HUGE positives for mankind). It isn't a great leap from one to the other in regards to the connection given that the limiting factor and excuse that we constantly here is, there's no budget... however you live in a lovely fluffy world where poverty is someone else's problem. Oddly enough we can make poverty a thing of the past should we wish to of course. I'm ready for that, are you?

Wow you really do have delusions of grandeur. You set up a website and say money is the source of all problems - lets get rid of money. And that's it - that's your contribution and gives you a pedestal to look down at everyone else who doesn't agree? I don´t think you are the first person to come up with a system not based on money so you might want to check your ego. Are you doing all you can to help the poor? Your donating every spare penny you have? Selling your bike - its a luxury after all. Helping out at soup kitchens? Working on your weekends with charities? If not YOUR not doing absolutely everything you can to help rid the world of poverty all your doing is standing in speakers corner ranting and raving at the pigeons.

So the original post was about giving kids some financial sense before they go into the workforce at the moment as far as I´m aware they get nothing - not even something to help them understand the deductions on their first paycheck. You think they are better off not knowing anything?

[Genestho]

[Snip]

Extrapolate. If you understand economics as you claim then there should be no issue. No one buying anything they they deem "frivolous" means that those industry's will collapse. The economic effects are far reaching. Not sure if you're trolling or not wanting to go there, but

True. You can do both, but there will be a consequence to that financial responsibility

Do you understand what a portion of earnings towards savings means. It is a percentage, not all.
This enables a spend/save ratio that works in your world.

And again, not everyone is saving the same, at the same rate, nor spending savings at the same rate, so again, in the worlds population it all becomes relative.

Industry accordingly adjust prices to meet the market, which is what we've seen in relatively recent times.
So the car oops, bike!! (or whatever the goal is) that was to be ticked plus interest is still bought, but paid for in cash so to speak, this also increases bargaining power to knock the purchase price lower or go somewhere else.
Therefore the spend still occurs at the same rate of knots, possibly faster as you're earning interest and compiling it as opposed to paying interest but under the purchasers control, not a finance company or bank.
This is all quite basic.

[gwigs]

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/JkhX5W7JoWI?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Money its a Gas...Grab that cash with both hands...I,m alright Jack..

[mashman]

Where do I sign up..? We are are all people on a tiny planet and we dont share the resources...?
Why do some suffer while some live in luxury we couldnt dream about...balance is all out ... its our planet..evryone should have a say

Nowhere just yet. We'll see how we go ;)


Wow you really do have delusions of grandeur. You set up a website and say money is the source of all problems - lets get rid of money. And that's it - that's your contribution and gives you a pedestal to look down at everyone else who doesn't agree? I don´t think you are the first person to come up with a system not based on money so you might want to check your ego. Are you doing all you can to help the poor? Your donating every spare penny you have? Selling your bike - its a luxury after all. Helping out at soup kitchens? Working on your weekends with charities? If not YOUR not doing absolutely everything you can to help rid the world of poverty all your doing is standing in speakers corner ranting and raving at the pigeons.

So the original post was about giving kids some financial sense before they go into the workforce at the moment as far as I´m aware they get nothing - not even something to help them understand the deductions on their first paycheck. You think they are better off not knowing anything?

:rofl: you really do miss the point doncha? I ain't on no pedestal, I'm shoulder to shoulder with brothers and sisters. There is no ego. There are no delusions of grandeur. Just those that you an Oscar think that I have. You're wrong, quite plain and simply wrong. As I've said WE can change things in the blink of an eye, but it does take US, or at least a majority of US. If you're feeling inferior, then you are feeling inferior. I'm not sitting in judgement over you, I merely asked you a question that you didn't answer. Are you prepared to do whatever it takes? Yes I could do more. Currently I'm not ready to do more. Yes that grates on me in so many ways, years and years wasted being a good little citizen whilst idiots run amok around the globe destroying everything they lay their fucked up eyes on. But I am ready for that change should it come sooner. I am fully aware that I am not the only one to have floated a similar idea, although I've yet to read of anyone that will do it "my" way. I take some pride in coming up with something new that looks like it could actually work. I need people to help me. I will ask people to help me when I'm ready. Until then, I will talk and people will either agree or disagree. No doubt you're scratching your head wondering what you're reading. Don't sweat it, I got dis shit.

It was. Who gives a fuck what the deductions are, they know what they end up with in their pocket. If they want to know, I'm sure they'll be resourceful enough to ask. Are you ever going to answer the question in regards to what will happen to the economy should a large majority of kids take their finances seriously and not spend on what they otherwise would have spent on?

[mashman]

Do you understand what a portion of earnings towards savings means. It is a percentage, not all.
This enables a spend/save ratio that works in your world.

And again, not everyone is saving the same, at the same rate, nor spending savings at the same rate, so again, in the worlds population it all becomes relative.

Industry accordingly adjust prices to meet the market, which is what we've seen in relatively recent times.
So the car oops, bike!! (or whatever the goal is) that was to be ticked plus interest is still bought, but paid for in cash so to speak, this also increases bargaining power to knock the purchase price lower or go somewhere else.
Therefore the spend still occurs at the same rate of knots, possibly faster as you're earning interest and compiling it as opposed to paying interest but under the purchasers control, not a finance company or bank.
This is all quite basic.

I do understand that yes. You can't save it all as you would starve to death amongst other things. In other words discretionary and disposable income to use the technical terms.

True. But if enough kids are what you would class as financially sensible, there will be a knock on effect to the economy as far as I can see. Would you not agree?

If a person is financially savvy, they will realise that it is cheaper not to have the car or bike in the first place, but to use public transport. No car/bike sales... and if the goal is to get into the housing market, why would you need either, especially in the big city? I had a house before I owned a car. Perhaps you're saving for that couch, or that TV, or whatever it is you;re going to save for that you ordinarily would have spent on other things. Saving/Not spending will have an economic affect that is greater than the individual. And in response to that will industry lower their prices to make up the shortfall? If not, then in 5 years time, you could be paying 2.5k over and above (true you could be paying less) the value. I understand the tradeoffs, and I would venture that many do when it comes down to it. The economy is built on debt and it needs more debt to grow.
Also, why, if people are happy with paying 5k of interest over 5 years (which they are), would a person wait when the can realise the dream of having a car in the first place. This happens with a greater success rate than not. Yes you pay more, but your realise the benefits earlier and pay the loan interest that you are happy with paying. An economic trade off.

[Ocean1]

Are you ever going to answer the question in regards to what will happen to the economy should a large majority of kids take their finances seriously and not spend on what they otherwise would have spent on?

A lot fewer of them defaulting on poorly considered loans.

And no GFC.

Couldn't possibly get more obvious than that.

Starting to sink in yet? Everyone else is correct, you're the one that's got it horribly wrong.

[jonbuoy]

Nowhere just yet. We'll see how we go ;)



:rofl: you really do miss the point doncha? I ain't on no pedestal, I'm shoulder to shoulder with brothers and sisters. There is no ego. There are no delusions of grandeur. Just those that you an Oscar think that I have. You're wrong, quite plain and simply wrong. As I've said WE can change things in the blink of an eye, but it does take US, or at least a majority of US. If you're feeling inferior, then you are feeling inferior. I'm not sitting in judgement over you, I merely asked you a question that you didn't answer. Are you prepared to do whatever it takes? Yes I could do more. Currently I'm not ready to do more. Yes that grates on me in so many ways, years and years wasted being a good little citizen whilst idiots run amok around the globe destroying everything they lay their fucked up eyes on. But I am ready for that change should it come sooner. I am fully aware that I am not the only one to have floated a similar idea, although I've yet to read of anyone that will do it "my" way. I take some pride in coming up with something new that looks like it could actually work. I need people to help me. I will ask people to help me when I'm ready. Until then, I will talk and people will either agree or disagree. No doubt you're scratching your head wondering what you're reading. Don't sweat it, I got dis shit.

It was. Who gives a fuck what the deductions are, they know what they end up with in their pocket. If they want to know, I'm sure they'll be resourceful enough to ask. Are you ever going to answer the question in regards to what will happen to the economy should a large majority of kids take their finances seriously and not spend on what they otherwise would have spent on?

If I was prepared to do whatever it takes I would live a simple existence and give all my spare money to the poor - so no I'm not doing what it takes and neither are you.

To answer your question I would think we would go back to the older economic models of spending within your means- no it wouldn't lead to the huge economic highs or growth we have had buy it should also prevent the same catastrophe from happening again.

As to not caring what the deductions are- really? You want to breed apathy- how will people know if they have been put into the wrong tax bracket unless the tax man tells them? Without studying the bank and credit card statements how will the know if they have been defrauded or overcharged? Look at the payment protection scam it's a good example.

[mashman]

A lot fewer of them defaulting on poorly considered loans.

And no GFC.

Couldn't possibly get more obvious than that.

Starting to sink in yet? Everyone else is correct, you're the one that's got it horribly wrong.

I'm still not giving you another sticker.

[mashman]

If I was prepared to do whatever it takes I would live a simple existence and give all my spare money to the poor - so no I'm not doing what it takes and neither are you.

To answer your question I would think we would go back to the older economic models of spending within your means- no it wouldn't lead to the huge economic highs or growth we have had buy it should also prevent the same catastrophe from happening again.

As to not caring what the deductions are- really? You want to breed apathy- how will people know if they have been put into the wrong tax bracket unless the tax man tells them? Without studying the bank and credit card statements how will the know if they have been defrauded or overcharged? Look at the payment protection scam it's a good example.

People already do that and it hasn't made a dent. Something more effective needs to be done. I asked if you would be prepared to do what it takes, not are you doing.

How can you go back?

Yes really. It's not apathy if you know what you have in your pocket. Surely credit cards would be banned?

[jonbuoy]

People already do that and it hasn't made a dent. Something more effective needs to be done. I asked if you would be prepared to do what it takes, not are you doing.

How can you go back?

Yes really. It's not apathy if you know what you have in your pocket. Surely credit cards would be banned?

Ok you will have to explain what I would have to do under your system for me to give an answer!

Go back by future generations not getting themselves into too much debt.

How can you know what you have in your pocket is right if you can't read a bank statement or understand bank charges. Do you rely blindly on the cashier giving you the correct change? Do you check those bank charges and withdrawals on your statements?

[mashman]

Ok you will have to explain what I would have to do under your system for me to give an answer!

Go back by future generations not getting themselves into too much debt.

How can you know what you have in your pocket is right if you can't read a bank statement or understand bank charges. Do you rely blindly on the cashier giving you the correct change? Do you check those bank charges and withdrawals on your statements?

Carry on living the way you live i.e. carry on working, carry on shopping, carry on going to the pub, carry on doing what you do. Just live without money. You will have access to everything you currently have access to. Like I said, very little will change... the rest will be up to NZers.

I believe there have been a few "resets" in the past, yet they have taken us to where we are today. It doesn't work.

Sometimes I check my change and my statements, sometimes I don't... however the missus is quite the opposite. It's not hard to read a balance and I learned how to do that myself and I'm a dumb fuck that doesn't care. Trust is everything and where money exists, it will be abused.

In fact on the news at the moment they're talking about cell phone cyber crime and that you should prevent it from happening. Awesome, they have been fighting cyber crime on the internet for decades and guess what, it still gets broken in to. Reckon that crime might be financially motivated? That crime won't exist under "my" system , because there is no financial gain.

[jonbuoy]

Carry on living the way you live i.e. carry on working, carry on shopping, carry on going to the pub, carry on doing what you do. Just live without money. You will have access to everything you currently have access to. Like I said, very little will change... the rest will be up to NZers.

I believe there have been a few "resets" in the past, yet they have taken us to where we are today. It doesn't work.

Sometimes I check my change and my statements, sometimes I don't... however the missus is quite the opposite. It's not hard to read a balance and I learned how to do that myself and I'm a dumb fuck that doesn't care. Trust is everything and where money exists, it will be abused.

In fact on the news at the moment they're talking about cell phone cyber crime and that you should prevent it from happening. Awesome, they have been fighting cyber crime on the internet for decades and guess what, it still gets broken in to. Reckon that crime might be financially motivated? That crime won't exist under "my" system , because there is no financial gain.

Are you not going to take anyone's possessions away?

[328FTW]

I know someone that hacks facebook, phones, profiles etc just so he can be a scumbag under the guise of a new name. He just does it for funnies cause he's immature.

There is no financial gain for rape, assault, car theft in order to joyride, vandalism etc. Should the current denominations of currency be ceased I would assume there would be new materialistic items that become the new holy grail. Then ultimately you could take away every conceivable item, put us all in a pair of briefs in a dark room. I would put money on the fact your personality, trust, instinct and friends etc would become of value and people would beat you to death to try gain that or try be the big alpha male/dominate one. Money is not the only thing that fuels the greedy or those that want to dominate others, it's a means to an end though.

I tireless work towards my cars and other things, I don't necessarily spend money to do it but time/skill. At the end you have a commodity which can be taken without the drawbacks of said time/skill. Which is why even some "perfect system" will not eliminate scumbags, dominance of others and other darker human traits; you'd have to take away the things I enjoy and do in order to even try achieve it so in the end how has this new system achieved anything better? I've found the most effective means to overcome slimeballs is simply to be smarter, more inquisitive than first glance and if shit hits the fan one mean SOB you'll wish you didn't cross. So really I don't believe there is a real solution you can apply to society as much as a solution you apply to yourself/your mindset.

Of course that doesn't mean we should cut the reins and have an economic free for all but eliminating money doesn't at all in my mind point to some new utopia if that's what is being implied.

[mashman]

Are you not going to take anyone's possessions away?

:rofl: WTF for?

[jonbuoy]

:rofl: WTF for?

So my boss can keep his 80m yacht?

[mashman]

I know someone that hacks facebook, phones, profiles etc just so he can be a scumbag under the guise of a new name. He just does it for funnies cause he's immature.

There is no financial gain for rape, assault, car theft in order to joyride, vandalism etc. Should the current denominations of currency be ceased I would assume there would be new materialistic items that become the new holy grail. Then ultimately you could take away every conceivable item, put us all in a pair of briefs in a dark room. I would put money on the fact your personality, trust, instinct and friends etc would become of value and people would beat you to death to try gain that or try be the big alpha male/dominate one. Money is not the only thing that fuels the greedy or those that want to dominate others, it's a means to an end though.

I tireless work towards my cars and other things, I don't necessarily spend money to do it but time/skill. At the end you have a commodity which can be taken without the drawbacks of said time/skill. Which is why even some "perfect system" will not eliminate scumbags, dominance of others and other darker human traits; you'd have to take away the things I enjoy and do in order to even try achieve it so in the end how has this new system achieved anything better? I've found the most effective means to overcome slimeballs is simply to be smarter, more inquisitive than first glance and if shit hits the fan one mean SOB you'll wish you didn't cross. So really I don't believe there is a real solution you can apply to society as much as a solution you apply to yourself/your mindset.

Of course that doesn't mean we should cut the reins and have an economic free for all but eliminating money doesn't at all in my mind point to some new utopia if that's what is being implied.

A mate of mine used to hack people's routers, well when I say hack, he just used to connect to them and use the default password associated with that router. Same principle, just easier to do. It was a giggle, but got boring after about 30 seconds. Given that phones are going to become credit cards, there will be a criminal element and those that are less savvy are gonna do things the old school way.

Everything that you highlight currently happens, even the taking of people's stuff, rape, molestation etc... the idea behind NOW is to provide an environment where the darker side of people's behaviours needn't be the dominant ones. I'm not for a moment believing that we're all gonna be huggy huggy kissy kissy and that the behaviour will vanish, but if the thief who wants a phone wants a phone, he can just go to the shop and get one for free. After all, the phone was made to be used, he may as well have it. That's one potential crime stopped. Take that "philosophy" and apply it to every other situation where a shitbag gets to that point where he's ready to take stuff, including the conmen etc... People will have the opportunity to exercise personal responsibility with just about zero excuses for doing something bad.

The darker human traits are environmental. Not every kid grows up to be a cunt, in fact very few do and as you highlight, that has nothing to do with the financial system. The best we can do is give people what they need to survive and the hope that they don't go apeshit and start dominating people. Whilst they may well try to do that, those around may object and the last thing I would do is discount someone that I thought was a soft arse. Just because they are, doesn't mean they can't defend themselves... and given that there's less crime around, the cops will be able to focus more time and energy into catching those fuckers. Sure there will be fights coz my dad is bigger than your dad and your mum was gargling my seminal fluid last night, but hey, nothing wrong with a bit of mono e mono conflict. So for arguments sake, people get everything they need provided for them (i.e. they all work to produce what we all need cooperatively), that'd be a good case for bringing back the death penalty for those who do rape, molest, cause malicious physical harm etc...?

I giggle when people mention Utopia. There's no such thing for a society, but it may well offer for individuals to enjoy on a personal basis... your own personal nirvana. Could be doing cars up, could be making movies, could be studying interstellar travel, the list is endless. Our darker traits will always exist, but I see that as no reason not to implement a system that offers an environment that culls the big issues of the day. I'm not naive enough to believe that other issues won't take their place, but one thing at a time. Let's get rid of the financial system and then see how we sit. Who knows, we may have to go back to a financial system... but we won't know unless we try and I see nothing in your post to suggest that NOW is a bad thing.

[mashman]

So my boss can keep his 80m yacht?

Absolutely. Why would you think that "we" would take stuff away from people?

[jonbuoy]

Absolutely. Why would you think that "we" would take stuff away from people?

So I can have one too?

[Ocean1]

Absolutely. Why would you think that "we" would take stuff away from people?

Can't wait for your revolutionary system, dude.

How do I go about pre-ordering an 80ft yacht?

[mashman]

So I can have one too?

If the boat builder is building boats, then why not? Or how's about something in the spirit of the "new society", how's about he lends you his when he isn't using it?


Can't wait for your revolutionary system, dude.

How do I go about pre-ordering an 80ft yacht?

jon beat you to it, so you'll have to join the queue... unless of course you're less of a wanker than jon is and the boat builder exercises his right to push you to the head of the queue.

[Banditbandit]

Splitter...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Wdr8KaCDY

[mashman]

Ok you will have to explain what I would have to do under your system for me to give an answer!

:corn:..........

[jonbuoy]

If the boat builder is building boats, then why not? Or how's about something in the spirit of the "new society", how's about he lends you his when he isn't using it?



jon beat you to it, so you'll have to join the queue... unless of course you're less of a wanker than jon is and the boat builder exercises his right to push you to the head of the queue.

I doubt it - Ocean1 seems alright to me and Im pretty good at being a wanker sometimes. But its 80meters not 80 feet - yes obscene but without it I wouldnt have a job. But there is no way there are enough resources for eveyone to have one or to have a trip in one so you would have to take it away from him.

[Banditbandit]

A lot fewer of them defaulting on poorly considered loans.

And no GFC.

Couldn't possibly get more obvious than that.

Starting to sink in yet? Everyone else is correct, you're the one that's got it horribly wrong.

If you think that's al it would take to stop another GFC then you are sadly mistaken about the nature of Capitalism and the major financial fluctuations it creates ...

[mashman]

I doubt it - Ocean1 seems alright to me and Im pretty good at being a wanker sometimes. But its 80meters not 80 feet - yes obscene but without it I wouldnt have a job. But there is no way there are enough resources for eveyone to have one or to have a trip in one so you would have to take it away from him.

I know what the m stands for. It's a big boat. Meh. Still no reason to take it off him though is it?

[oldrider]

If you think that's al it would take to stop another GFC then you are sadly mistaken about the nature of Capitalism and the major financial fluctuations it creates ...

I don't think it is capitalism (or any other ism) that creates the instability, it is the financial system it's self that is flawed!

All the current political isms use the same flawed monitory system and they all suffer the same instabilities, what is the common denominator for failure!

Add to that, the fact that the money system "major players" always come out on top! ... Go figure! :brick:

[Banditbandit]

And finally why not be greedy ??? Our Government just was ... They sold Mighty River Power shares at $2.50 ... some people said they had undervalued the price .. but the answer was "let the market decide" .. .. and people expected the price to rise ... well the market has decided .. today they aere trading at $2.47 .. below the Government price ... and they have been lower ..

So did our Government rip off the peope who bought the shares? I thik they did .. Greedy bastards took the people for whatever they thought they could get ..

And now I see that MRP shares have hit thir lowest point since the share float .. a new record low ...

Not the first time that a Government-owned energy producer has been over-valued is it ...

If people bought overpriced stuff on trademe they'd all be screamign about it .. Would you buy anything off this Government ???

[Fergus]

So for arguments sake, people get everything they need provided for them (i.e. they all work to produce what we all need cooperatively),

Who decides who gets the yachts and mansions and who gets the state houses?
Without money, how will you measure a persons contribution to society and provide to them accordingly?

[Ocean1]

If you think that's al it would take to stop another GFC then you are sadly mistaken about the nature of Capitalism and the major financial fluctuations it creates ...

If you're going to dissagree with me then arm yourself with some facts, otherwise you just come across as yet another ideologist that "kust knows" that can't be right because you don't agree with it.

Let me start you off with some proper facts: Fiscal prudence, by definition is that which maintains a stable financial outlook, if more of the American mortgage defaulters that drove the GFC and the institutions that lent to them had displayed a bit more of that and a damned sight less greed then the GFC wouldn't have happened.

[oldrider]

And now I see that MRP shares have hit thir lowest point since the share float .. a new record low ...

Not the first time that a Government-owned energy producer has been over-valued is it ...

If people bought overpriced stuff on trademe they'd all be screamign about it .. Would you buy anything off this Government ???

The share market is long term and AMP and others shares have all been through the early fluctuations, it is the nature of the beast!

Nobody was fleeced by the government their brokers or anyone else, they entered the market freely and willingly!

It is their own money and they are the ones who are facing the risk those that can't face that kind of heat stay out of the kitchen!

As usual, those that can't stay out and envy those that do when they win!

I am pleased that I am on the outside and that as a taxpayer those that have bought shares have eased my tax dollars onto something other more urgent cause.

[mashman]

Who decides who gets the yachts and mansions and who gets the state houses?
Without money, how will you measure a persons contribution to society and provide to them accordingly?

Ahhhh, the fun questions. The market will decide. Place your order like you usually do and see if you get one. That which you currently have you keep.
Money will not be used in the internal economy, but monetary value in regards to goods/services/effort will be calculated virtually so that we still produce a GDP for our interactions with the rest of the world.

As for who gets the new shit... (Iz gonna lol and lol hard) "business" will. "Business" will still be driving the production and generation of goods and services etc... and as we all rely on them, they, logically, should have the good shit to furnish all of our needs.

After that it's down to individuals and what they want/need/desire/hanker after etc... In the early stages we can use the monetary virtualisation should people start getting all pissy about jon getting a new boat etc... After that, I guess we'll see how we develop.

[Banditbandit]

If you're going to dissagree with me then arm yourself with some facts, otherwise you just come across as yet another ideologist that "kust knows" that can't be right because you don't agree with it.

So ... let me see ... there have been several major fluctuations in Capitalism ... the "Great Depression" ... the Stock Market Crash of the 1980s ... the recent GFC ... to name a few ... all these are facts ...

Go here and read this - I can't summarise it in a small forum post .. and you need to be familiar with at least some of it to understand the macro-economic issues I want to talk about (Yeah - I know - fat chance you'll read it ...)

http://libcom.org/library/capital-karl-marx


Let me start you off with some proper facts: Fiscal prudence, by definition is that which maintains a stable financial outlook, if more of the American mortgage defaulters that drove the GFC and the institutions that lent to them had displayed a bit more of that and a damned sight less greed then the GFC wouldn't have happened.

Hmmm .. So .. 'Merika was trillions and trillions of dollars in surplus when Geo W took over the presidency ... not long after that 'Merika was trilions and trillions of dollars in deficit .. caused by warmongering and dropping very expensive bombs on other countries and paying soldiers millions and millions of dollars in wages for what is economically non-productive work ... an army at war is a drain not a producer ...

Because of that massive deficit there was a major crisis in the country - with resulting high unemployment etc etc ... eased only slightly by an increase in military personel to serve the war machines ... and the move of production to other countries because of the cheaper labour (notably moving car productinm to Mexico . out of Detroit and other Michigan towns ) .. all causing major unemployment and reducing the inability of the population to pay the moprtgages that banks had thrown at them when there was higher levels of employment .. (what is called the sub-prinme crisis .. but other financial institutiosn were affected to)

With regard to the move of industries to other countrries, Marx says this is inevitable ... as industrialization creates jobs .. which creates wealth .. workers use their money to fund education for the next generation .. and so on ... that's what haopopened here ... as each generation gains more education they want more money ... eventually the employers move their factories to countries with a poorly educated workforce - because they can pay them cheaper wages ... in the country where the factories were once running, wages fall, less money is spent on eduction, healthm, etc etc becasue there us les wealth and lower tax take ... and what was once a first world coutry deteriotes to the status of an under-developed country - while the forner underdeveloped countries become the new rich countriesw .. then the cicle continues ...

It's very long term cycle but you can see it happening now .. jobs have gone from Godzone to Pacific, to China, to Pakistan ... China and the other Asian economies are certainly on the upswing - better standards of living etc etc ... and we are at the beginning of a down swing ...

That enough for you ??

[Fergus]

Ahhhh, the fun questions. The market will decide. Place your order like you usually do and see if you get one. That which you currently have you keep.
So ask for it then wait and see?



Money will not be used in the internal economy, but monetary value in regards to goods/services/effort will be calculated virtually so that we still produce a GDP for our interactions with the rest of the world.

So my contribution will have some measure of value?
What use does a valuation of my contribution have if it cannot be used to exchange for others contribution?




As for who gets the new shit... (Iz gonna lol and lol hard) "business" will.

Ah, so the "business" that produces mansions will decide who gets the next mansion? On what criteria will they base their decision? How does the "business" that creates the gold plated toilet seat decide which mansion "business" will receive their seats?

[Ocean1]

That enough for you ??

It's not even an adequate begining. I gave you a statement of fact. You've found some articles that you like the sound of and that contain a few facts, but the statements linking those facts are opinion. Politically charged opinion at that.

The problem in America was private debt. Sure the govt also spent too much, but thatever extent that contributed to the original problem, the cause remains constant: Writing cheques you may not be able to honour.

So the salient fact remains: Fiscal prudence is almost always required to be financially secure. That, and hard work, another trait anathema to the losers that blame "the system" the world over.

[mashman]

So ask for it then wait and see?

Unless of course it's already in the shops. In which case, walk in, pick one up, let the cashier scan it, then walk out with your brand new whatever you were so desperately in need of.



So my contribution will have some measure of value?
What use does a valuation of my contribution have if it cannot be used to exchange for others contribution?

Yes.
It is going to be used. Ya know, the GDP bit, that importing and exporting malarky that'll still require $ to "communicate" with the rest of the world.



Ah, so the "business" that produces mansions will decide who gets the next mansion? On what criteria will they base their decision? How does the "business" that creates the gold plated toilet seat decide which mansion "business" will receive their seats?

Yup, the mansion builder can decide. Dunno how they'll decide, perhaps they'll have a mansion lottery, why does it matter who gets the mansion as long as it's used? There will be local authority compliance to go through :shifty:. Maybe the same thing will happen with the golden toilet seats, apart from the stringent compliance that is.

[mashman]

It's not even an adequate begining. I gave you a statement of fact. You've found some articles that you like the sound of and that contain a few facts, but the statements linking those facts are opinion. Politically charged opinion at that.

The problem in America was private debt. Sure the govt also spent too much, but thatever extent that contributed to the original problem, the cause remains constant: Writing cheques you may not be able to honour.

So the salient fact remains: Fiscal prudence is almost always required to be financially secure. That, and hard work, another trait anathema to the losers that blame "the system" the world over.

Show me evidence of your facts please.

[Banditbandit]

It's not even an adequate begining. I gave you a statement of fact. You've found some articles that you like the sound of and that contain a few facts, but the statements linking those facts are opinion. Politically charged opinion at that.

The problem in America was private debt. Sure the govt also spent too much, but thatever extent that contributed to the original problem, the cause remains constant: Writing cheques you may not be able to honour.

So the salient fact remains: Fiscal prudence is almost always required to be financially secure. That, and hard work, another trait anathema to the losers that blame "the system" the world over.

Simply declaring your statements to be facts and my statements opinion "politically charged opinion" .. does not make it so ... All statements are made from an ideological position and all from an interpretation of the world around us which is only shared by some people .. (for instance, we have no shared basis on which to discuss this ... clearly we are very different thinkers ...)

The macro problem is that Capitalism always leads to booms and busts ... even Capitalist writers agree on thjis - noty just left wing critiques.

[Fergus]

Unless of course it's already in the shops. In which case, walk in, pick one up, let the cashier scan it, then walk out with your brand new whatever you were so desperately in need of.


Great, free ipads for all. good luck with that. I assume when they run out, new stock will be allocated by chance like mansions?





Yes.
It is going to be used. Ya know, the GDP bit, that importing and exporting malarky that'll still require $ to "communicate" with the rest of the world.


Yup, the mansion builder can decide. Dunno how they'll decide, perhaps they'll have a mansion lottery, why does it matter who gets the mansion as long as it's used?

So let me get this straight:
An Individuals contribution, although measured, doesn't dictate what they receive in return?
Goods and services are free for the taking except when demand exceeds supply in which case lotteries take place?


So it's communism with a lottery twist and free ipads.

Sounds exciting, where do I sign? :niceone:

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[mashman]

Great, free ipads for all. good luck with that. I assume when they run out, new stock will be allocated by chance like mansions?

The fapple and samdung shit will be a single device with the best features of both, an appsung mebee. Easier and cheaper to produce. Design them to be upgradeable and recyclable and they may well become more than photo taking movie making music playing shit gaming rigs.

The usual supply and demand chain will rule. If the machines are needed and someone is making them, then they'll be available.



So let me get this straight:
An Individuals contribution, although measured, doesn't dictate what they receive in return?
Goods and services are free for the taking except when demand exceeds supply in which case lotteries take place?

True to an extent... In today's terms it would be phrased as, some people will take more than they are entitled to and some people will take less than they are entitled to. All contributions are required to make a society function.
When demand exceeds supply, people will simply have to be patient.



So it's communism with a lottery twist and free ipads.

Sounds exciting, where do I sign? :niceone:

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

It's not communism, coz communism uses money in its internal economy. The lottery twist may not be how whoever does business decides to do business. No mention of tits and you're in... cheap date.

[Banditbandit]

So it's communism with a lottery twist and free ipads.




Mashman's ideas are no version of Communism that I know of ... nor are they a Dictatorship of the Proletariat ...

[gwigs]

Mashman's ideas are no version of Commubnism that I know of ... nor are they a Dictatorship of the Proletariat ...

With you on that Bandit......

[lakedaemonian]

Hmmm .. So .. 'Merika was trillions and trillions of dollars in surplus when Geo W took over the presidency ...




No it wasn't.

The US was enjoying a brief and limited surplus in the late 90's almost entirely due to the capital gains taxes collected from the artificially created Dot Com bubble, which burst before he took office and the adverse effects of declining capital gains taxes were yet to be felt.

George Bush has a lot to answer for, but your explanation is typical of people looking for simple answers and villians to pretty complex problems.




not long after that 'Merika was trilions and trillions of dollars in deficit .. caused by warmongering and dropping very expensive bombs on other countries and paying soldiers millions and millions of dollars in wages for what is economically non-productive work ... an army at war is a drain not a producer ...

Because of that massive deficit there was a major crisis in the country - with resulting high unemployment etc etc ... eased only slightly by an increase in military personel to serve the war machines ... and the move of production to other countries because of the cheaper labour (notably moving car productinm to Mexico . out of Detroit and other Michigan towns ) .. all causing major unemployment and reducing the inability of the population to pay the moprtgages that banks had thrown at them when there was higher levels of employment .. (what is called the sub-prinme crisis .. but other financial institutiosn were affected to)

What actually happened post 9/11 is the most excessive and completely intentional period of overly cheap credit in human history.

You forgot the part where the collapsed Dot Com bubble that popped BEFORE GW as well as the 9/11 event very early in his first term led to "Be Patriotic, buy sh!t" as well as the property bubble.

It's that out of control and completely unsustainable buying frenzy, supported by really bad fiscal and monetary policy such as promoting home ownership to people who could never afford the monthly nut on a McMansion that led to everyone wanting to flip houses until the game of musical chairs inevitably ended.


With regard to the move of industries to other countrries, Marx says this is inevitable ... as industrialization creates jobs .. which creates wealth .. workers use their money to fund education for the next generation .. and so on ... that's what haopopened here ... as each generation gains more education they want more money ... eventually the employers move their factories to countries with a poorly educated workforce - because they can pay them cheaper wages ... in the country where the factories were once running, wages fall, less money is spent on eduction, healthm, etc etc becasue there us les wealth and lower tax take ... and what was once a first world coutry deteriotes to the status of an under-developed country - while the forner underdeveloped countries become the new rich countriesw .. then the cicle continues ...

It's very long term cycle but you can see it happening now .. jobs have gone from Godzone to Pacific, to China, to Pakistan ... China and the other Asian economies are certainly on the upswing - better standards of living etc etc ... and we are at the beginning of a down swing ...

That enough for you ??

Pakistan is a corrupt economic toilet that is going down the gurgler, albeit a corrupt nuclear armed toilet that will probably threaten to take everyone down with it unless it gets more handouts. Do you know who Afghans unanimously hate? I'll give you one guess and it's not "America" or "Americans". The answer is Pakistan, specifically their government and security forces.

China's banking sector is a horror show. Does anyone remember the late's 80's threat "Japan is going to take over the world", then in 1990 Japan's share market and property bubble popped, and it's been in a slow perpetual decline ever since.

China is like that times 10X, albeit China at least invested in some actual natural resources than insanely overpriced golf courses and Manhattan buildings they sold back for pennies on the dollar.

China is rising and will continue to rise, 200 years ago it was the biggest economy in the world....it's heading back there again someday.......someday after it stumbles and falls from the increasingly difficult problem of trying to prevent a natural and inevitable economic recession that will only get worse the harder you try to prevent it and make such things "obsolete".

Marx should have gone into Marketing........he would have blown Saatchi and Saatchi away.......but as to his understanding of human beings organizing for personal and mutual economic benefit? yeah...nah.

[Banditbandit]

, but your explanation is typical of people looking for simple answers and villians to pretty complex problems.

Yeah .. right there .. you are right .. I'm not an economist I'm just a simple man trying to get by in this fucked up world...



Marx should have gone into Marketing........he would have blown Saatchi and Saatchi away.......but as to his understanding of human beings organizing for personal and mutual economic benefit? yeah...nah.

Yeah - I agree .. and even worse .... apparently he refused to allow his daughter to marry the man she wanted to marry because he was "beneath her station" ... such an armchair revolutionary ..

I'm not a marxist .. I like his analysis - but not his solution ...

[328FTW]

So this free 80ft boat we all share, who washes it and cleans it when everything is said and done? The general laziness and mentality of "somebody else" will mean it either A) Doesn't get done B)You entice someone with a comodity C) You do it yourself but more than likely land up not wanting the other lazys shits messing it up again which leads to the idea of posession again. I honestly cannot see things working as such without some kind of intermediate recognized form of payment. It doesn't matter if it's 70 virgins or the greenback, someone pays.

Money farmers if you can call them as such, the top dog hoarders holding it over the middle class, media, the entire system would easily turn to materials (well to a point they do now). Think withholding huge amounts of coal grinding the power grid to a stop, you could just take it but what if their promise of a better life with greater benifits if you defend their way of life outweighs what this newfound society offers? I mean why settle for getting by when you can be a king amoung men? You get people taking sides, sides that don't agree. While the proportion of those that do such a thing is small you have to think along the lines of people like hitler, manipulation of already underlying hatred and feelings to control masses of people.

Of course I have my own underlying thoughts such as the general population of people are getting more stupid, or a least the exposure of stupid people to the greater world and disconnected ideals they blindly think can be achieved is more than ever. Unless there is a way to fix stupid I'm entirely skeptical any system is going to be a vast improvement. Much less from one angle such as economy, everything from diet to social norms plays a role.

[jonbuoy]

I know what the m stands for. It's a big boat. Meh. Still no reason to take it off him though is it?

If he has one and everyone is equal other people are going to try and take it from him- unless the state is going to protect his property? Otherwise you've made anarchy- in which case the strongest gang/army will control everything. I really don't think you've thought the distribution of assets and recourses through.

[mashman]

So this free 80ft boat we all share, who washes it and cleans it when everything is said and done? The general laziness and mentality of "somebody else" will mean it either A) Doesn't get done B)You entice someone with a comodity C) You do it yourself but more than likely land up not wanting the other lazys shits messing it up again which leads to the idea of posession again. I honestly cannot see things working as such without some kind of intermediate recognized form of payment. It doesn't matter if it's 70 virgins or the greenback, someone pays.

Money farmers if you can call them as such, the top dog hoarders holding it over the middle class, media, the entire system would easily turn to materials (well to a point they do now). Think withholding huge amounts of coal grinding the power grid to a stop, you could just take it but what if their promise of a better life with greater benifits if you defend their way of life outweighs what this newfound society offers? I mean why settle for getting by when you can be a king amoung men? You get people taking sides, sides that don't agree. While the proportion of those that do such a thing is small you have to think along the lines of people like hitler, manipulation of already underlying hatred and feelings to control masses of people.

Of course I have my own underlying thoughts such as the general population of people are getting more stupid, or a least the exposure of stupid people to the greater world and disconnected ideals they blindly think can be achieved is more than ever. Unless there is a way to fix stupid I'm entirely skeptical any system is going to be a vast improvement. Much less from one angle such as economy, everything from diet to social norms plays a role.

How does the boat currently stay clean? And it's 80m, not ft ;). As simple as you'll not be allowed back on the boat. I'll take you as not being able to see how it would work as a, you wouldn't vote for the idea?

If the system is in place, and those that are in place are so with the intentions of their people at heart, then no Kings amongst men will rise without there being civil war. Everything you highlight happens now. Perhaps it would be more bearable if you didn't have to worry that when you lose your job, your kids are going to be fed, they are going to have healthcare, education etc... irrespective of whether daddy is in work or not. That sounds like progress to me. If the kingmakers rise, the kingmakers rise. Currently the people don't have the resources to fight them off. Within "my" system, they would every opportunity to.

Why do you need to fix stupid? If you're going to address stupid, then have an IQ test and shoot anyone that doesn't make the grade. Being skeptical is no reason not to do anything. I'm skeptical, but I'd like to find out if it will work, because the current system isn't working and on the face of it, as well as quite deep under the covers, it looks like it'll lay much better foundations for future generations to be more positive.

[mashman]

If he has one and everyone is equal other people are going to try and take it from him- unless the state is going to protect his property? Otherwise you've made anarchy- in which case the strongest gang/army will control everything. I really don't think you've thought the distribution of assets and recourses through.

Why are they going to try and take it from him? they could do that now if they wanted to, so what's stopping them? There will be a government, so no anarchy and I would positively expect "tribes", well, community's. Fucksake you guys are hung up on destruction and bad men where they are not the majority. Why does the distribution of assets need to be addressed?

What is it with you people that think society is going to collapse and we're all going to turn into murderous lunatics because we suddenly have equity? It's a pretty fucked up way of looking at the world. What stops us from turning into said same rabble right this minute? Nothing. So why doesn't it happen? Quite simply, the vast majority are peaceful. Why would that change? It's like the cannabis argument. OH NO, if you legalise that shit the world will fall apart in an instant. NEWSFLASH: people smoke the shit all the time and the world hasn't filled up with rabid lunatics, just people scrambling for their share of the money pot. Seriously, why will these bad men take over? How will they coerce the majority of people into accepting them as a dictator? That says more about you than it does about them... I get it. You're afraid of change, you;ve been educated to react that way, because the only way you can handle what I am proposing is to throw monsters in the way. Baaaaaaaaaaaa.

[Ocean1]

Show me evidence of your facts please.


Fiscal prudence, by definition is that which maintains a stable financial outlook.

What is the meaning of fiscal prudence?

"Spending within budget"

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_meaning_of_fiscal_prudence

Fucking revolutionary, I know but allow me to simplify it, just for you: Live within your means or bad shit will happen.

[mashman]

This is our future (http://www.alternet.org/economy/real-numbers-half-america-poverty-and-its-creeping-toward-75-0). It's going in no other direction in any western country you care to mention. Do you think it might get worse? Go read the Swedish thread to see what's happening there. Sound familiar? "My" system does away with the majority of those concerns and the man below summed the root of the issue up perfectly, and he may have seen a thing or two in his life on which to base his analysis


I don't think it is capitalism (or any other ism) that creates the instability, it is the financial system it's self that is flawed!

All the current political isms use the same flawed monitory system and they all suffer the same instabilities, what is the common denominator for failure!

Add to that, the fact that the money system "major players" always come out on top! ... Go figure! :brick:

They are facts, cold hard facts. Don't fear "my" change, fear theirs.

[mashman]

What is the meaning of fiscal prudence?

"Spending within budget"

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_meaning_of_fiscal_prudence

Fucking revolutionary, I know but allow me to simplify it, just for you: Live within your means or bad shit will happen.

And if everyone lived within their means what will be the economic fallout given that no one will be borrowing? Every financial system since the dawn of time has been a debt driven system. An unavoidable economic fact.

[jonbuoy]

Why are they going to try and take it from him? they could do that now if they wanted to, so what's stopping them? There will be a government, so no anarchy and I would positively expect "tribes", well, community's. Fucksake you guys are hung up on destruction and bad men where they are not the majority. Why does the distribution of assets need to be addressed?

What is it with you people that think society is going to collapse and we're all going to turn into murderous lunatics because we suddenly have equity? It's a pretty fucked up way of looking at the world. What stops us from turning into said same rabble right this minute? Nothing. So why doesn't it happen? Quite simply, the vast majority are peaceful. Why would that change? It's like the cannabis argument. OH NO, if you legalise that shit the world will fall apart in an instant. NEWSFLASH: people smoke the shit all the time and the world hasn't filled up with rabid lunatics, just people scrambling for their share of the money pot. Seriously, why will these bad men take over? How will they coerce the majority of people into accepting them as a dictator? That says more about you than it does about them... I get it. You're afraid of change, you;ve been educated to react that way, because the only way you can handle what I am proposing is to throw monsters in the way. Baaaaaaaaaaaa.

The only reason it doesn't happen is because of the repercussions from the government and police.

Its not money thats the problem - its human nature - greed, inequality, stupidity and laziness.

Are you seriously saying that you would allow all the megarich to keep their mansions, cars, yachts, private jets? I assume people living on the poverty line will at least be given resources? Will they be given a mansion, a private jet and a Bentley - if not why not? We are all equal after all? Have you ever been to a third world country where the governments don´t have the resources to control gangs? The majority may live in peace - it doesn't take much of a minority to spoil it. Ever rented out a house and seen how people treat property that's not theirs?

[mashman]

Make of this what you will (http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/16582-consumerism-and-its-discontents)

[jonbuoy]

Make of this what you will (http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/16582-consumerism-and-its-discontents)

Brilliant - who knows in a few more generations the majority of teenagers will be inspired and aspire to be brilliant scientists, doctors and engineers not football players and their skanky wives.

[Ocean1]

And if everyone lived within their means what will be the economic fallout given that no one will be borrowing?

I told you: bad shit wouldn't happen. You no listen.


Every financial system since the dawn of time has been a debt driven system. An unavoidable economic fact.

Oh please, you're calling Abu the moneylender in the village market an unavoidable debt driven system?

You get your facts confused with what the rest of civilisation call unmitigated and unsubstantiated crap.

[mashman]

The only reason it doesn't happen is because of the repercussions from the government and police.

Its not money thats the problem - its human nature - greed, inequality, stupidity and laziness.

Are you seriously saying that you would allow all the megarich to keep their mansions, cars, yachts, private jets? I assume people living on the poverty line will at least be given resources? Will they be given a mansion, a private jet and a Bentley - if not why not? We are all equal after all? Have you ever been to a third world country where the governments don´t have the resources to control gangs? The majority may live in peace - it doesn't take much of a minority to spoil it. Ever rented out a house and seen how people treat property that's not theirs?

And those repercussions will still exist. Why would that change?

Absolute bullshit. There's no such thing as human nature. I have exactly the same range of emotions, actions, feelings, wants and desires as every other person on the planet, yet I'm wanting something different. Those emotions and actions etc... are all reactions to circumstance, no more, no less. Fuck it, you won't know what I'm talking about because human nature is a falsehood above all others... and if that's the best excuse you have, then you're sorely lacking in the brains department sunshine.

Yes, they can keep what they have! There is no reason to take them away from those people. EVERYTHING WILL BE FREE, so people on the poverty line will have access to everything they need to get them out of poverty without having to worry about how much it is going to cost. :killingme would "they" be happy with a healthy home? would "they" be happy with an electric car or small banger? would "they" be happy with enough that stops them from having to struggle?

[mashman]

Brilliant - who knows in a few more generations the majority of teenagers will be inspired and aspire to be brilliant scientists, doctors and engineers not football players and their skanky wives.

Not if they can't afford the education fees.

[mashman]

I told you: bad shit wouldn't happen. You no listen.

Oh please, you're calling Abu the moneylender in the village market an unavoidable debt driven system?

You get your facts confused with what the rest of civilisation call unmitigated and unsubstantiated crap.

You no prove it.

ALL MONEY IS DEBT! IT IS INTEREST BEARING. IT IS UNAVOIDABLE FOR MONEY TO NOT CARRY A DEBT. Just in case you're not wearing your glasses.

:killingme :crybaby: :rofl: fuckin priceless.

[jonbuoy]

And those repercussions will still exist. Why would that change?

Absolute bullshit. There's no such thing as human nature. I have exactly the same range of emotions, actions, feelings, wants and desires as every other person on the planet, yet I'm wanting something different. Those emotions and actions etc... are all reactions to circumstance, no more, no less. Fuck it, you won't know what I'm talking about because human nature is a falsehood above all others... and if that's the best excuse you have, then you're sorely lacking in the brains department sunshine.

Yes, they can keep what they have! There is no reason to take them away from those people. EVERYTHING WILL BE FREE, so people on the poverty line will have access to everything they need to get them out of poverty without having to worry about how much it is going to cost. :killingme would "they" be happy with a healthy home? would "they" be happy with an electric car or small banger? would "they" be happy with enough that stops them from having to struggle?

Really - you live in a dream world. So you have the same range of emotions, actions, feelings, wants and desires as - Fred West, Jack the Ripper, Genghis Khan, Stalin, Hitler, Paedophiles, mass murderers and freaks who like to lock girls in their basements for decades?

[Ocean1]

ALL MONEY IS DEBT! IT IS INTEREST BEARING. IT IS UNAVOIDABLE FOR MONEY TO NOT CARRY A DEBT.

Your money might well be carrying debt, you sound just like the sort of loser that maxes out his visa and then bleats about the system bein' all wrong.

But where's the debt carried by this here wad in my pocket, genius?

[mashman]

Really - you live in a dream world. So you have the same range of emotions, actions, feelings, wants and desires as - Fred West, Jack the Ripper, Genghis Khan, Stalin, Hitler, Paedophiles, mass murderers and freaks who like to lock girls in their basements for decades?

Yes.


Your money might well be carrying debt, you sound just like the sort of loser that maxes out his visa and then bleats about the system bein' all wrong.

But where's the debt carried by this here wad in my pocket, genius?

:killingme... wrong, try again.

:shit: :killingme... in the same place that everyone else's debt is.

[jonbuoy]

Yes.



:killingme... wrong, try again.

:shit: :killingme... in the same place that everyone else's debt is.

Scary :weird:

[mashman]

Scary :weird:

:rofl: this thread just keeps on giving. Question for ya jon, ok, maybe 2. Where does a creditor keep their debtor information? A) In the debtors wallet or B) in a ledger... And when they want it back, do they have the right to take it out of a bank indiscriminately to pay back that debt? A) Yes. B) Yes.

[Ocean1]

in the same place that everyone else's debt is.

You've got no fucking idea, dude, it carries no debt whatsoever. You just grasp anything from the interweb that sounds like it agrees with your dogma. And all that really does is add yet one more to the army of losers that reckon all their problems are someone else's fault, and when you can't actually point to a particular person you blame "the system".

[Genestho]

I do understand that yes. You can't save it all as you would starve to death amongst other things. In other words discretionary and disposable income to use the technical terms.

True. But if enough kids are what you would class as financially sensible, there will be a knock on effect to the economy as far as I can see. Would you not agree?

Nope and I have explained why with a few scenarios, I believe.

If a person is financially savvy, they will realise that it is cheaper not to have the car or bike in the first place, but to use public transport.

Yes but you originally asked what I thought was a rhetorical question about spending vs saving (there no vs!) and repeatedly required the answer, so I answered it.

Of course it might be preferable but that's not what you asked now, is it.

However, I have asked friends if they really needed the new curtains, new carpet when there was nothing wrong with the old and tinted windows piled up on the mortgage. Sadly they've taken three steps backwards.
By all means, is it necessary is a bloody good question, there's no substitute for common sense.

No car/bike sales... and if the goal is to get into the housing market, why would you need either, especially in the big city?

Because if you're a first home buyer and thinking, aim lower to increase equity, you'll quite likely need transport to commute.
You just saved at least 200k plus interest, shaved 10 years off your loan and gained the ability to choose your mode of transport/toy, you're welcome. ;)

I had a house before I owned a car. Perhaps you're saving for that couch, or that TV, or whatever it is you;re going to save for that you ordinarily would have spent on other things.

No, because you already have a savings plan in place, prior to the goal.

The point is, it's a lifestyle thing and because you're taught how as a child, thus heading into the adult world you have lots!

The nudge is the kid has had a decade of fiscal responsibility and understanding if you don't earn, you don't gain.
You don't spend what you don't have, also respect and a sense of pride in what they've worked hard for.

This has knock on effect in their character, pride and wider values.

I doubt if respect is the same for what you or anyone else owns, if it's not earned.

Which brings me to consumerism. Won't the fact that we can have an endless supply of what we want have an even worse effect on consumerism and resources? This is important.

Saving/Not spending will have an economic affect that is greater than the individual.

Billions of individuals in personal debt created an economic effect greater than the individual. So, Incorrect.

Again, You are saving a portion, while spending, lol.
Again, since your focussed on saving - not everyone is saving at the same rate, nor spending savings at the same rate, so it's all relative.

And in response to that will industry lower their prices to make up the shortfall? If not, then in 5 years time, you could be paying 2.5k over and above (true you could be paying less) the value. I understand the tradeoffs, and I would venture that many do when it comes down to it. The economy is built on debt and it needs more debt to grow.

Hmm, nope I disagree. See the domino effect of the housing collapse in the US, prior to the GFC.

Also, why, if people are happy with paying 5k of interest over 5 years (which they are), would a person wait when the can realise the dream of having a car in the first place. This happens with a greater success rate than not. Yes you pay more, but your realise the benefits earlier and pay the loan interest that you are happy with paying. An economic trade off.

Indeed, and that's human nature.
I don't see it as a trade off.

[mashman]

You've got no fucking idea, dude, it carries no debt whatsoever. You just grasp anything from the interweb that sounds like it agrees with your dogma. And all that really does is add yet one more to the army of losers that reckon all their problems are someone else's fault, and when you can't actually point to a particular person you blame "the system".

TANSTAAFL... if money isn't free, then it carries debt. That is an indisputable fact. You'd have to be a moron wrapped in stupid to believe otherwise. Funnily enough, I don't fully blame people, but I hold the system primarily responsible for the deaths of billions of people. Those who defend that system are guilty of murder.

[mashman]

Indeed, and that's human nature.
I don't see it as a trade off.

No such thing... it's all learned behaviour.
Can you explain to me why the economy is in the crapper? Not the GFC etc... but from an economic point of view. What needs to happen for the economy to re-launch itself?

[Ocean1]

TANSTAAFL... if money isn't free, then it carries debt. That is an indisputable fact. You'd have to be a moron wrapped in stupid to believe otherwise. Funnily enough, I don't fully blame people, but I hold the system primarily responsible for the deaths of billions of people. Those who defend that system are guilty of murder.

But it is free. It's my lunch. I earned it. I own it. So man up and explain where it's debt is.

As for the rest, only a hypocrite could believe that and waste the resources you have, so if there's blame to be shared around I'd say you qualify for more than most.

[mashman]

But it is free. It's my lunch. I earned it. I own it. So man up and explain where it's debt is.

As for the rest, only a hypocrite could believe that and waste the resources you have, so if there's blame to be shared around I'd say you qualify for more than most.

I asked jon to help give me the answer before.

Hypocrite? I'm not defending the system... and I DO take my fair share of the blame, hence the reason that I have changed my mind in regards to supporting the current system. You're wrong again.

[jonbuoy]

:rofl: this thread just keeps on giving. Question for ya jon, ok, maybe 2. Where does a creditor keep their debtor information? A) In the debtors wallet or B) in a ledger... And when they want it back, do they have the right to take it out of a bank indiscriminately to pay back that debt? A) Yes. B) Yes.

What has that got to do with my question?

[Ocean1]

I asked jon to help give me the answer before.

Hypocrite? I'm not defending the system... and I DO take my fair share of the blame, hence the reason that I have changed my mind in regards to supporting the current system. You're wrong again.

Say: "I DON"T KNOW". You'll find it very liberating, nobody else expects you to know anything, so there's no reason you should.

Neither am I. See: something else you didn't know.

There's a few more but I'll break it to you slowly.

[mashman]

What has that got to do with my question?

That wasn't in response to a question. Feel ready to answer the question I asked you a while ago?

[mashman]

Say: "I DON"T KNOW". You'll find it very liberating, nobody else expects you to know anything, so there's no reason you should.

Neither am I. See: something else you didn't know.

There's a few more but I'll break it to you slowly.

As I said, the answer is in a reply the question that jon didn't ask. I have no issues saying I don't know when I don't.

Where did I call you a hypocrite?

Go on, sock it to me, I'm pretty sure I can take it.

[Ocean1]

Where did I call you a hypocrite?

... not defending "the system".

[scissorhands]

A Civilised Society tv1 12.05am tonight

A Civilised Society - The Hollow Men
www.thehollowmen.co.nz/doco/acs.shtml‎
A Civilised Society. The war between teachers and the New Right over public education in New Zealand. This is the untold story of the epic struggle between ...

[mashman]

... not defending "the system".

How is that being called a hypocrite? I thought I used the term guilty of murder.

[mashman]

A Civilised Society tv1 12.05am tonight

A Civilised Society - The Hollow Men
www.thehollowmen.co.nz/doco/acs.shtml‎
A Civilised Society. The war between teachers and the New Right over public education in New Zealand. This is the untold story of the epic struggle between ...

Will record it. That Shock Doctrine, what I saw of it, should be shown in every single educational institute in the country.

[jonbuoy]

:rofl: this thread just keeps on giving. Question for ya jon, ok, maybe 2. Where does a creditor keep their debtor information? A) In the debtors wallet or B) in a ledger... And when they want it back, do they have the right to take it out of a bank indiscriminately to pay back that debt? A) Yes. B) Yes.

Depends who you owe - if you owe the tax man/government or your own bank - yes they can take it out of your account. If you have a personal loan from anywhere else then no - they can try to take a direct debit if you set it up but your bank will bounce it once you reached your overdraft limit. You both usually get a copy of the loan terms and contract.

[oldrider]

The monetary system is well under control and synchronised world wide!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeCqzwNnqyk

Industry can produce like never before yet people starve!

We can send men and machines in and out of space with impunity, we can land men on the moon and bring them home safely!

But we can't get a monetary system to link it all together, without the need for war, booms busts and draconian austerity patch-up measures that don't work!

Does anybody really believe that the current system is the only way and it is the best that we can do?

It is after all the same basic system that has been in existence since the beginning of time and it's still tuned to benefit the same small % of people now as it did then!

Only the names have been changed, as they say, to protect the innocent! :innocent: .... Yeah right!

[Winston001]

Mashie - I know you enjoy these arguments but doesn't it worry you that on a site with 4000 members, you have almost no support? Could it be that you are mistaken? Or are you convinced that everyone else is wrong and you are a lone messiah?

[scissorhands]

Will record it. That Shock Doctrine, what I saw of it, should be shown in every single educational institute in the country.

Maori TV showed a John Pilger doco a couple of weeks ago was a real cracker too. Good on them

[mashman]

Mashie - I know you enjoy these arguments but doesn't it worry you that on a site with 4000 members, you have almost no support? Could it be that you are mistaken? Or are you convinced that everyone else is wrong and you are a lone messiah?

heh... argument eh, and here was me thinking that I was offering an alternative. Almost no support, but there is support, both here and in the real world.

It's been 2 years since one of my first confessions... and at that point in time it was 50-50. (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/122031-My-first-poll-for-the-NZ-public). And this is KB.

It's common sense given the shit that passes for policy these days. You may disagree, yet the discussion isn't had at a political level for some reason? It is a viable alternative of that there is no doubt... and if the only argument that can be leveled against the idea is human nature, then it's a forgone conclusion that "my" system will win, because the majority of human beings still believe in doing what's right. Misguided? Too much faith in human beings that doesn't exist? :rofl:@messiah :facepalm:

It can end poverty Winston. Is that not worth it?

[jonbuoy]

You know what's most surprising Mashman is your attitude that classes aimed at teaching kids how the modern money system works is fundamentally wrong. Have you at no stage thought that this could lead to MORE kids questioning the current system? Like I have said in the past in your other rants its not inconceivable possible for society to evolve away from money - its just that distributing resources fairly on a worldwide scale is far more complicated than you seem to accept. The idea that you can remove the banking and finance system we have overnight and people will carry on building cars, houses, yachts, jewellery and other luxuries just the way they are and it will somehow get equally passed around is ludicrous.

You seem to think people will fundamentally change and turn into selfless model citizens because you removed the money. If people were truly like that then the system would run as it is - people would turn down big paychecks, companies would agree to pay taxes for the greater good, criminals would stop stealing, rapists would stop raping, football hooligans would stop fighting the prisons would be empty. We would all hold hands and sing around the campfire. But that's not how we are at the moment. Money is not the root of all evil - unfortunately SOME people are.

[328FTW]

Everything you highlight happens now.

Exactly, because we're in a decently free market and those human traits show through. It's simply people making the system work for them either by fighting it, breaking it or working it the right way. So fundamentally I don't see what is solved.

[mashman]

Exactly, because we're in a decently free market and those human traits show through. It's simply people making the system work for them either by fighting it, breaking it or working it the right way. So fundamentally I don't see what is solved.

Here's a few things I prepared earlier

Free top quality Healthcare
Free top quality Education
The eradication of poverty
A HUGE drop in crime
Equity
Sensible Laws
Fewer Laws
Recession proof
No need for prostitution
Teens not getting pregnant to get a house
Green technologies would become affordable
Infrastructure would become affordable
Shorter working days
Less working days
More personal time
No reliance on insurance companies
No need to rely on a pension
Less environmental pressure
Safer communities
Doing things because they need to be done
You can be what you want
No manufacturing costs
No export costs
Higher building standards
Top notch sports facilities
The highest standard of living in the world
A free workforce
The ability to respond to natural disaster without waiting for insurance companies
KNOWledge shared, not silo'd for profit protection
Open competition
Unhindered innovation
No mortgages
No rent
No taxation

I wouldn't call that nothing

[mashman]

You know what's most surprising Mashman is your attitude that classes aimed at teaching kids how the modern money system works is fundamentally wrong. Have you at no stage thought that this could lead to MORE kids questioning the current system? Like I have said in the past in your other rants its not inconceivable possible for society to evolve away from money - its just that distributing resources fairly on a worldwide scale is far more complicated than you seem to accept. The idea that you can remove the banking and finance system we have overnight and people will carry on building cars, houses, yachts, jewellery and other luxuries just the way they are and it will somehow get equally passed around is ludicrous.

You seem to think people will fundamentally change and turn into selfless model citizens because you removed the money. If people were truly like that then the system would run as it is - people would turn down big paychecks, companies would agree to pay taxes for the greater good, criminals would stop stealing, rapists would stop raping, football hooligans would stop fighting the prisons would be empty. We would all hold hands and sing around the campfire. But that's not how we are at the moment. Money is not the root of all evil - unfortunately SOME people are.

I have considered, my wife brought it up, that kids may ask quesitons in regards to how it works. But it's a class on finance, not a class on the alternatives to the financial system, so shut up coz there'll be a 1 answer multiple choice test in 5 minutes. Why aren't there more economists out there jumping up and down for it? Primarily because they believe that human nature is a stumbling block. So they don't try. They're wrong in believing that a financial system can work and they're wrong in blaming human nature for the problems. Resources are currently moved around the globe, the logistics are there, there's enough of the staples to go around, but if you don't have the $$$ to pay for all of this, you get Africa. Sad indictment on the financial system given that money is an infinite resource. But fuck them, it's their own fault for not getting jobs right? Granted the fairly bit could be tricky if you're going to dole it out, 1 for NZ, 1 for Oz, 1 for the US, 1 for the UK, 2 for China etc... take it as it is at the moment and then start to address the issues of "fair". People have hobbies that they don't get paid for. Is that ludicrous? Think about it.

Nope, I don't think anything of the kind. I'm saying that the opportunity will be there to be less of a wanker. Oh lord :facepalm:, the majority of people don't get big pay checks to turn down, the majority of people pay their taxes, the majority of people don't steal, the majority of people don't rape, the majority of people aren't football hooligans ans they don't sit around the campfire either, well, not the majority. Are you getting the picture yet? THE MAJORITY ARE GOOD HONEST PEOPLE THAT DESERVE BETTER, just in case you have forgotten your glasses too. That is a fact, yet you focus on the minority of "deadbeats" because it suits your argument. And your answer, dun dun duuuuuuuun, a financial literacy class. What a HUGE fuckin waste of education time.

[Genestho]

No such thing... it's all learned behaviour.
Can you explain to me why the economy is in the crapper? Not the GFC etc... but from an economic point of view. What needs to happen for the economy to re-launch itself?

It is rather obvious, you even mention it yourself.

You didn't answer my question.
By your own admission resources are finite and you say overnight there'll be a chaotic episode because it'll happen instantly.

You propose to give everyone what they need and want, material wise.
The more I get, the more I want, because I can.

I want the boat, forget the 80 metre, I want the party. Bugger we trashed the boat! We didn't mean to! But now I need a new one!

I want every E-type jag ever made, also the Shelby Cobra, i want a shed of every 850 norton commando ever made, mmmm jota laverdas, Ducati tri-colour 750's I'm going to need a few sheds?
I need Moar land.. That's going to upset someone!

Now I'm going to need maintenance men and gardeners. I wanna eat out every night. I want all the latest appliances with technical wizardry and all my do-dackeys, cant live without my ipod, my ipad, my imac. Whoops I'm a bit busy to contribute to the system because I'm having a lot of fun here! :D
I want a new house, actually make that three, also a few batches dotted round the world, actually mansions, just because apparently I can has what I want. And I need to visit my cribs regularly!

That's not all but you get the picture.

Lets equate that behaviour to the billions in personal debt because its potentially the same mindset. I don't need to know how things work, nor slow down my consumption because I have everything, I can rock into suppliers and get what I want, if not some nice cheery chap will give me a call when stuffs ready!

x that by a few billion because surely not everyone's needs are that frivolous = a massive strain on providing resources.

Do your two theories not contradict? Or have your ideals changed.

[oldrider]

Mashie - I know you enjoy these arguments but doesn't it worry you that on a site with 4000 members, you have almost no support? Could it be that you are mistaken? Or are you convinced that everyone else is wrong and you are a lone messiah?

Golly Winston, think how many times that society has been wrong and but for the persistence of some of our lone individual crusaders that turned our right!

We would still be away back in the dark ages! ...... Vive la difference ..... hang in there Mashie! :niceone:

[mashman]

It is rather obvious, you even mention it yourself.

You didn't answer my question.
By your own admission resources are finite and you say overnight there'll be a chaotic episode because it'll happen instantly.

You propose to give everyone what they need and want, material wise.
The more I get, the more I want, because I can.

I want the boat, forget the 80 metre, I want the party. Bugger we trashed the boat! We didn't mean to! But now I need a new one!

I want every E-type jag ever made, also the Shelby Cobra, i want a shed of every 850 norton commando ever made, mmmm jota laverdas, Ducati tri-colour 750's I'm going to need a few sheds?
I need Moar land.. That's going to upset someone!

Now I'm going to need maintenance men and gardeners. I wanna eat out every night. I want all the latest appliances with technical wizardry and all my do-dackeys, cant live without my ipod, my ipad, my imac. Whoops I'm a bit busy to contribute to the system because I'm having a lot of fun here! :D
I want a new house, actually make that three, also a few batches dotted round the world, actually mansions, just because apparently I can has what I want. And I need to visit my cribs regularly!

That's not all but you get the picture.

Lets equate that behaviour to the billions in personal debt because its potentially the same mindset. I don't need to know how things work, nor slow down my consumption because I have everything, I can rock into suppliers and get what I want, if not some nice cheery chap will give me a call when stuffs ready!

x that by a few billion because surely not everyone's needs are that frivolous = a massive strain on providing resources.

Do your two theories not contradict? Or have your ideals changed.

I fully understand what you're saying, but there is a very simple "control" point that you guys are missing. You can only have what has been produced. If it hasn't been made, you can't have it, no one can. Think about it and then rattle off your list again.

People aren't going to miss what they don't have and if they've voted for a system that "limits" material goods in the first place, then it's highly unlikely that they're going to want to return to what they didn't vote for innit.

The trade-off. Potentially less stuff v's that list below. The majority are sensible rational people when they are given an alternative.

[Genestho]

I fully understand what you're saying, but there is a very simple "control" point that you guys are missing. You can only have what has been produced. If it hasn't been made, you can't have it, no one can. Think about it and then rattle off your list again.

People aren't going to miss what they don't have and if they've voted for a system that "limits" material goods in the first place, then it's highly unlikely that they're going to want to return to what they didn't vote for innit.

The trade-off. Potentially less stuff v's that list below. The majority are sensible rational people when they are given an alternative.

But there is an alternative now and rationale hasn't been used by this same sensible majority? It's only now that we're beginning to see folk change their habits, for now - for themselves, because they've been limited. If sense and rationale had been considered prior to now, we wouldn't be here to begin with, that's from the top, down.

The control point should always be on the individual otherwise one is going to take more than one needs. Or some smarty will figure out that market is finite, can be cornered and controlled. Hello, here comes the demand again..

People will exploit that, it's inevitable. They always have.

Do you really think that a bigger country with different beliefs and cultures with richer resources believing them to be finite, isn't going to tell a smaller country to bugger off and get their own, what's in it for them when dealing with countries with minimal resources?

[Banditbandit]

But where's the debt carried by this here wad in my pocket, genius?

The piece of paper in your pocket is a symbol that someone owes you something ... the money carries that debt ...



you blame "the system".

Do you have any conception of the terms "systemic failures" and "systemic issues" ???


But it is free. It's my lunch. I earned it. I own it. So man up and explain where it's debt is.



Hang on .. your lunch can not be both free and earned by you ... that's a definite conflict in ideas right there ..

[mashman]

But there is an alternative now and rationale hasn't been used by this same sensible majority? It's only now that we're beginning to see folk change their habits, for now - for themselves, because they've been limited. If sense and rationale had been considered prior to now, we wouldn't be here to begin with, that's from the top, down.

The control point should always be on the individual otherwise one is going to take more than one needs. Or some smarty will figure out that market is finite, can be cornered and controlled. Hello, here comes the demand again..

People will exploit that, it's inevitable. They always have.

Do you really think that a bigger country with different beliefs and cultures with richer resources believing them to be finite, isn't going to tell a smaller country to bugger off and get their own, what's in it for them when dealing with countries with minimal resources?

That's very true, but I haven't seen it offered to the majority as an alternative by any mainstream, or otherwise, party. Let alone there having been any education to gain a better understanding of what such an alternative may do or how it would work. Have you? :rofl: very very true, we leave it up to those who are more interested to have our best interests at heart.

True. But you still have to produce the good/service before it can be consumed. No doubt there will be some who believe that they can get ahead by fiddling the system. Great, let them do it... but that doesn't mean that the majority will follow suit, does it?. Maybe the majority will frown upon the behaviour of the individual that's "rorting" and will deal with the person themselves.

Yes, they always have because those things have always been there to exploit given the circumstances. Change the circumstances and I believe you'll see different behaviour. Please keep in mind that to get to that point we will have had to vote the system in and that people will understand that hoarding etc... will achieve nothing. If the majority understand that, then perhaps they'll keep an eye on where all of the resources are going to avoid such pettiness? We're all capable of change and if there is a reason for that change, then perhaps we'll see something better from the people... never know until we try.

That's up to the bigger countries to deal with. If the majority of their populations want to live like NZ, then we can share resources as if they lived 2 doors down. Yes resources may eventually become finite (may as in there's a lot of water still, there's sun/wind/tides/nuclear for power etc...), but that can be much further down the track if we don't throw them all away on the capitalistic free for all, I want to sell therefore I must produce and generate need :facepalm:. So much waste in so little time.

[FROSTY]

mashman I genuinely don't understand where you are comeing from.
The current idiotic situation we find ourselves supporting (feeding kids in schools) is a DIRECT result of a generation of people with at best little financial planning skills coupled to a totally selfish attitude in life.
I've been pushing for REAL financial and life skills education being compulsary right up to year 11 students.
It won't help the current generation a lot but will teach kids to live within their means and for that matter HOW to do so.
Or do we want to totally ignore the lesson that the USA has taught us. An entire nation liveing well beyond its means. We see exactly how well that worked diddn't we?

[avgas]

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h2/h2_17.3.859.jpg

[blue rider]

an age ol tale.....

does not work anymore....no one went to the sustainability classes

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/p480x480/72175_10151525989799494_1105533576_n.jpg

[Banditbandit]

FISH .. Oh .. my favourite past time after bike riding and sex .. I think I'll fire up the boat this weekend and see if I can kill some fish ...

(Unlike the pix above I got snapper, gurnard, trevally and kahawai (more than one of each) last time I went out about four weeks ago ... )

[mashman]

mashman I genuinely don't understand where you are comeing from.
The current idiotic situation we find ourselves supporting (feeding kids in schools) is a DIRECT result of a generation of people with at best little financial planning skills coupled to a totally selfish attitude in life.
I've been pushing for REAL financial and life skills education being compulsary right up to year 11 students.
It won't help the current generation a lot but will teach kids to live within their means and for that matter HOW to do so.
Or do we want to totally ignore the lesson that the USA has taught us. An entire nation liveing well beyond its means. We see exactly how well that worked diddn't we?

I understand where you are coming from though :bleh:. Being financially aware does not stop the behaviours you are talking about. Billionnaires go broke too ya know. The one thing people seem to be ignoring is that at the time of taking out HP those people can afford it. Otherwise that'd be classed as irresponsible lending wouldn't it?
It's not hard to know how much you can afford to pay at any given point in time. You have X coming in each week, you can afford to spend Y. The problems occur when circumstances change i.e. interest rates rise, cost of living rises, an unforeseen expense appears and they borrow borrow borrow with every intention of being able to pay it back. Plenty of people do pay it back, plenty of people hit the skids and end up out of their depth through no real fault of their own, coz circumstance screws their once comfortable position.
It's all fine and well telling kids to live beyond their means and I'd venture that the majority manage just fine... unless you have figures to highlight otherwise? So it doesn't highlight a lack of education in regards to spending etc... it highlights a problem that life changes and catches people out financially sometimes.
Most of the bankruptcies in the US are due to having to pay medical bills, not due to people overspending. Read up on it, because it isn't people living beyond their means. (http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2009/db2009064_666715.htm)

[blue rider]

FISH .. Oh .. my favourite past time after bike riding and sex .. I think I'll fire up the boat this weekend and see if I can kill some fish ...

(Unlike the pix above I got snapper, gurnard, trevally and kahawai (more than one of each) last time I went out about four weeks ago ... )

found the pic on a site for everything fish ...smoked, grilled, in sauce, in aspic....yum......snapper:drool:

[avgas]

It can end poverty Winston. Is that not worth it?
Interesting concept.
End poverty. Or simply move it?

Say remove money altogether. So now instead of $1m I have a million sheep. People come to me and when I need something I swap a sheep for it.
Every day I have lamb.
Am I likely to ever live at the same level as someone who had say 5 sheep?
Or would you be like Mao and kill me off so that you can give everyone an equal share of my sheep?

There is an old Russian engineer saying.
они вид, что платят мне, я вид, что работаем
"They pretend to pay me, I pretend to work"

Now I would like to say that I would keep doing what I was doing without pay. But to be brutally honest I have always wanted to stop working for everyone else - disappear, become self sufficient and think/learn away from the mass. Perhaps do my own designs etc.
I would not contribute to society at all. I would simply ignore it. I see no point in helping the common man, only specific ones whom I choose.
The only thing that makes me step outside this comfort zone currently is the fact that I will receive some form of reward for doing so.
In most instances this is money.

If I don't require money, I will become completely selfish and only do what I want to do. Which suits me fine. But might go against the design of the system. I would change from a provider to a free-rider.

Perhaps we should teach kids morals of how the current system should work.............and then hope they get it right.
Teaching them why its broken........nothing positive is to come out of that. It won't fix poverty - it creates it.
If you ride a motorbike do you stare at the corner with all the crosses on it?
Your answer is that we should - and make the road safer. I question if we make the road safer does it fix anything?

[avgas]

does not work anymore....no one went to the sustainability classes
Soilent Green is the answer to your pic.

[oldrider]

FISH .. Oh .. my favourite past time after bike riding and sex .. I think I'll fire up the boat this weekend and see if I can kill some fish ...

(Unlike the pix above I got snapper, gurnard, trevally and kahawai (more than one of each) last time I went out about four weeks ago ... )

But did you do a sustainability check on the first two? (bike riding and sex) :lol:

[Edbear]

I understand where you are coming from though :bleh:. Being financially aware does not stop the behaviours you are talking about. Billionnaires go broke too ya know. The one thing people seem to be ignoring is that at the time of taking out HP those people can afford it. Otherwise that'd be classed as irresponsible lending wouldn't it?
It's not hard to know how much you can afford to pay at any given point in time. You have X coming in each week, you can afford to spend Y. The problems occur when circumstances change i.e. interest rates rise, cost of living rises, an unforeseen expense appears and they borrow borrow borrow with every intention of being able to pay it back. Plenty of people do pay it back, plenty of people hit the skids and end up out of their depth through no real fault of their own, coz circumstance screws their once comfortable position.
It's all fine and well telling kids to live beyond their means and I'd venture that the majority manage just fine... unless you have figures to highlight otherwise? So it doesn't highlight a lack of education in regards to spending etc... it highlights a problem that life changes and catches people out financially sometimes.
Most of the bankruptcies in the US are due to having to pay medical bills, not due to people overspending. Read up on it, because it isn't people living beyond their means. (http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2009/db2009064_666715.htm)

The problem is forward thinking. While I might be comfortably able to meet my obligations today, what happens if I have a car accident and break my back tomorrow..?

I told my kids, commit in the knowledge that it could turn pear-shaped, then what? People need to be taught to plan for contingencies. The US is an example of people expecting things to continue to improve on a bubble that was doomed to burst and did not have a contingency plan for if their fortunes were reversed instead.

[jonbuoy]

I have to question how much Mashman has actually researched his soapbox subject - corporate bartering systems are already in place all over the world. Mashman have you actually researched and looked at other people's theories on a moneyless system - they have a much better understanding if how things work - and slightly less Jehovah's Witness method of getting their point accross. You idea isn't new or unique- Google it.

[scumdog]

does not work anymore....no one went to the sustainability classes



Yup, the story of NZ fisheries.

Find a species, talk it up to the public. (well, a lot of the fish 'popular' today weren't to popular a few years ago.)

Over-fish it

Move onto another species...

[mashman]

Interesting concept.
End poverty. Or simply move it?

What do you mean move it? We're talking about ending it. There will be houses, there will be fresh water, there will be food, there will be electricity (as there is today) plus much much more.



Say remove money altogether. So now instead of $1m I have a million sheep. People come to me and when I need something I swap a sheep for it.
Every day I have lamb.
Am I likely to ever live at the same level as someone who had say 5 sheep?
Or would you be like Mao and kill me off so that you can give everyone an equal share of my sheep?


Why would people need to come to you? An entire country full of people are still going to need fed. I assume what you're really asking is "What do I get in return?"?. Someone to fix yer tractor, make feed, electricity, clothing, fuel, internet, healthcare, education for your kids etc... all provided for free. Essentially if we start tallying up who has what and who is worth what instead of what does the country have and what does the country need, then we'll bog ourselves down in details. I believe they refer to it as sharing.
You will be at the same level as everyone else.
I'd kill you off in a heartbeat, but that's just coz I think you're a cunt.



There is an old Russian engineer saying.
они вид, что платят мне, я вид, что работаем
"They pretend to pay me, I pretend to work"

Now I would like to say that I would keep doing what I was doing without pay. But to be brutally honest I have always wanted to stop working for everyone else - disappear, become self sufficient and think/learn away from the mass. Perhaps do my own designs etc.
I would not contribute to society at all. I would simply ignore it. I see no point in helping the common man, only specific ones whom I choose.
The only thing that makes me step outside this comfort zone currently is the fact that I will receive some form of reward for doing so.
In most instances this is money.

If I don't require money, I will become completely selfish and only do what I want to do. Which suits me fine. But might go against the design of the system. I would change from a provider to a free-rider.


How many people are there in the country that do your job? Would it be possible that you would spend a little time training 3 or 4 others to share the burden of your role (providing backup), then replacing you to go off and do what you want?
If you decide not to contribute, it would be a shame... likely there will be others who decide to do similar. If you decide that you want to choose to help on certain individuals, then that's your choice. It won't bring the system down.

Go for it. If that's really what you want to do, then go for it. Hopefully enough people will do the same and the entire thing will fail and we'll head back to poverty et al. (hopefully an obvious sarcasm)



Perhaps we should teach kids morals of how the current system should work.............and then hope they get it right.
Teaching them why its broken........nothing positive is to come out of that. It won't fix poverty - it creates it.
If you ride a motorbike do you stare at the corner with all the crosses on it?
Your answer is that we should - and make the road safer. I question if we make the road safer does it fix anything?

Don't we teach kids morals anyway?
I'm with you in regards to making the road safer. Maybe it's worth removing all signage, all lines, all lights etc... perhaps people will drive more considerately. Dunno.

[mashman]

The problem is forward thinking. While I might be comfortably able to meet my obligations today, what happens if I have a car accident and break my back tomorrow..?

I told my kids, commit in the knowledge that it could turn pear-shaped, then what? People need to be taught to plan for contingencies. The US is an example of people expecting things to continue to improve on a bubble that was doomed to burst and did not have a contingency plan for if their fortunes were reversed instead.

Put your life on hold surely? Never leave the house must be a go there?

So a bubble bursts, it affects the income of a large number of people and the people get the blame for it? Take money out of the equation and there ain't no problem in the first place. Why firefight when you can mitigate entirely? You can plan for every contingency you like and should the worst happen you may be able to muddle through etc... not everyone is that resilient and no one, and I mean no one, should be shoved to the bottom of the pile to be ignored because they are of no financial benefit to the economy... indeed they are now a drag on it. Why not just shoot those who are a negative drag and be done with it? And if we decide that that is the way to go, then I'll happily endorse a deeper financial literacy in schools as being a useful thing to know.

Although we can insure ourselves to mitigate financial problems :facepalm:. Wasting money on insurance that may never be needed and you can bet yaw ass they'll try to get out of it if they can. Financial Literacy is not a solution if the professionals can fuck up so royally.

[mashman]

I have to question how much Mashman has actually researched his soapbox subject - corporate bartering systems are already in place all over the world. Mashman have you actually researched and looked at other people's theories on a moneyless system - they have a much better understanding if how things work - and slightly less Jehovah's Witness method of getting their point accross. You idea isn't new or unique- Google it.

THERE WILL BE NO BARTER... outwith that which individuals decide to undertake themselves. I know it's not unique, never said it was. Do you have another assumption you'd like to throw out there? Time Banking is about the best solution I've hear thus far, but it is open to rort too and isn't much better than the financial system the deeper it's looked into. Time banking is a form of barter and barter will fail where someone gets all precious about a chicken being worth less than a cow. Why not just share the milk and eggs, win win.

[mashman]

Yup, the story of NZ fisheries.

Find a species, talk it up to the public. (well, a lot of the fish 'popular' today weren't to popular a few years ago.)

Over-fish it

Move onto another species...

Fuckers gotta make their money ya fuckin hippy.

[Ocean1]

The piece of paper in your pocket is a symbol that someone owes you something ... the money carries that debt ....

Yes, it's a symbol that the reserve bank agrees that I have that quantity of value in credit with them. What's your point?


Do you have any conception of the terms "systemic failures" and "systemic issues" ???.

I do. In fact fixing systemic fuckups is my field of expertise. It pays well.


Hang on .. your lunch can not be both free and earned by you ... that's a definite conflict in ideas right there ..

But that's the point, Mashmate rightly pointed out that there wasn't any such thing as a free lunch, I was simply pointing out that my lunches cost nobody else a dime. Which is a concept completely at odds with his ideology.

[jonbuoy]

THERE WILL BE NO BARTER... outwith that which individuals decide to undertake themselves. I know it's not unique, never said it was. Do you have another assumption you'd like to throw out there? Time Banking is about the best solution I've hear thus far, but it is open to rort too and isn't much better than the financial system the deeper it's looked into. Time banking is a form of barter and barter will fail where someone gets all precious about a chicken being worth less than a cow. Why not just share the milk and eggs, win win.

So it's utopian socialism?

[mashman]

But that's the point, Mashmate rightly pointed out that there wasn't any such thing as a free lunch, I was simply pointing out that my lunches cost nobody else a dime. Which is a concept completely at odds with his ideology.

That ignores where your lunch came from and the wages that that person is paid, which will have them claiming for assistance off the state, which mean your lunch does actually cost others more than a dime. Fucksake I hope you give your job more thought.

[mashman]

So it's utopian socialism?

:rofl: I've already answered no to that... but it gives you the chance to find your own utopia if ya like. Just keep on doing what we're doing and don't let budget constraint hold anyone back from anything. If it provides an environment that can get rid of poverty, then what else can it achieve? By the sounds of things it's nothing that has been offered before, despite all of those who are espousing similar things :killingme... (just in case you think I'm serious, I'm not).

[jonbuoy]

:rofl: I've already answered no to that... but it gives you the chance to find your own utopia if ya like. Just keep on doing what we're doing and don't let budget constraint hold anyone back from anything. If it provides an environment that can get rid of poverty, then what else can it achieve? By the sounds of things it's nothing that has been offered before, despite all of those who are espousing similar things :killingme... (just in case you think I'm serious, I'm not).

Its not impossible to get rid of poverty now though is it? If your opinion that all humans are really cute and fluffy on the inside why do you think money is the problem? What´s to stop everyday people from doing a little extra shopping on a weekend and distributing it themselves amongst the homeless people with a blanket and a thermos flask? Sure a minority of people do - but not many.

[mashman]

Its not impossible to get rid of poverty now though is it? If your opinion that all humans are really cute and fluffy on the inside why do you think money is the problem? What´s to stop everyday people from doing a little extra shopping on a weekend and distributing it themselves amongst the homeless people with a blanket and a thermos flask? Sure a minority of people do - but not many.

Why hasn't it been done? and why are poverty rates rising if it's so easy? After all it's just a money problem and money is infinite. The problem is that people just don't give a shit about it, it's something that the govt are supposed to be sorting out with the tax money that we pay. There's nothing to stop us, I agree, so we throw money at a charity and our conscience is clear because we've done out bit... but as avgas says, is that really dealing with the problem? That and a lot of us have jobs to go to, family's to feed, distances to travel etc... Lots of factors go into it. I'd rather the homeless guy could have a home if he likes, would receive treatment if he needs it, could shop for himself etc... but for whatever reasons that doesn't happen and the spaces and resources are slowly going the way of the dodo to pay for something else.

[jonbuoy]

Why hasn't it been done? and why are poverty rates rising if it's so easy? After all it's just a money problem and money is infinite. The problem is that people just don't give a shit about it, it's something that the govt are supposed to be sorting out with the tax money that we pay. There's nothing to stop us, I agree, so we throw money at a charity and our conscience is clear because we've done out bit... but as avgas says, is that really dealing with the problem? That and a lot of us have jobs to go to, family's to feed, distances to travel etc... Lots of factors go into it. I'd rather the homeless guy could have a home if he likes, would receive treatment if he needs it, could shop for himself etc... but for whatever reasons that doesn't happen and the spaces and resources are slowly going the way of the dodo to pay for something else.

EXACTLY people don´t give a shit and that won´t change if you get rid of the money. Its a people problem. If we were all utopian citizens we would take our time to do it - the vast majority could afford to give up an hour and 5$ of their leisure money a month to do it including you and me - but we don´t. There is no reason for anyone to be homeless or starving in places like the UK or NZ - they have excellent benefit systems compared to the rest of the world. Its an easy cop out to blame the money and governments when we all do so little to help.

[mashman]

EXACTLY people don´t give a shit and that won´t change if you get rid of the money. Its a people problem. If we were all utopian citizens we would take our time to do it - the vast majority could afford to give up an hour and 5$ of their leisure money a month to do it including you and me - but we don´t. There is no reason for anyone to be homeless or starving in places like the UK or NZ - they have excellent benefit systems compared to the rest of the world. Its an easy cop out to blame the money and governments when we all do so little to help.

Why won't that change? There are thousands of volunteers that can only spare a few house because they have to work too. Without having to rely on money, then can do the job full-time. That's a huge difference in the amount of effort being expended, more help would become available. Even if they were homeless by choice, they could still walk into the supermarket and pick food up instead of having to beg and they could walk into a camping shop and get a Grade A sleeping bag. Things would change. So you're either purposefully ignoring what you could do with a society without money, or you just don't give a shit.

[jonbuoy]

Why won't that change? There are thousands of volunteers that can only spare a few house because they have to work too. Without having to rely on money, then can do the job full-time. That's a huge difference in the amount of effort being expended, more help would become available. Even if they were homeless by choice, they could still walk into the supermarket and pick food up instead of having to beg and they could walk into a camping shop and get a Grade A sleeping bag. Things would change. So you're either purposefully ignoring what you could do with a society without money, or you just don't give a shit.

Well if your the crusader for the poor and needy - what was the last thing you did to help? Its clearly not a time or money issue - you have enough of both to be on the Internet bickering. Its an interesting way to defend your ideas - to say anyone who disagrees doesn´t give a shit about the poor. Lets face it ALL westerners are rich and powerful compared to people living in genuine poverty in third world countries - you have more power and money than they ever will - what have you done to help them?

[mashman]

I asked if you would be prepared to do what it takes

Still waiting for an answer :yes:


Well if your the crusader for the poor and needy - what was the last thing you did to help? Its clearly not a time or money issue - you have enough of both to be on the Internet bickering. Its an interesting way to defend your ideas - to say anyone who disagrees doesn´t give a shit about the poor. Lets face it ALL westerners are rich and powerful compared to people living in genuine poverty in third world countries - you have more power and money than they ever will - what have you done to help them?

Not as much as I could. I have my "adopted" homeless guys. When they're there or to be clearer, when they're there and I'm there I'll grab them something from the deli. However, I am prepared to end poverty by doing what it takes to have an economy that makes that a possibility. As asked above. Are you?

[blue rider]

Soilent Green is the answer to your pic.

with a paper thin wafer perhaps?

[jonbuoy]

Still waiting for an answer :yes:



Not as much as I could. I have my "adopted" homeless guys. When they're there or to be clearer, when they're there and I'm there I'll grab them something from the deli. However, I am prepared to end poverty by doing what it takes to have an economy that makes that a possibility. As asked above. Are you?

Answer to what? You said nothing would change for me? So what would I have to do?

If your saying I can do what I like - it sounds great - I get my own 80M yacht (not sure where we are going to keep them all though - everyone´s going to want one) I don´t have to work - even though for some reason people are going to want to work for me cleaning, cooking and maintaining. I can cruise wherever I like - (not sure how long the oils going to last - we will all be burning 24 tons a day or so in diesel fuel). But why is someone going to want to be changing my lightbulbs and servicing the engines, cleaning my toilet when they can have their own yacht if they wanted?

[mashman]

Answer to what? You said nothing would change for me? So what would I have to do?

If your saying I can do what I like - it sounds great - I get my own 80M yacht (not sure where we are going to keep them all though - everyone´s going to want one) I don´t have to work - even though for some reason people are going to want to work for me cleaning, cooking and maintaining. I can cruise wherever I like - (not sure how long the oils going to last - we will all be burning 24 tons a day or so in diesel fuel). But why is someone going to want to be changing my lightbulbs and servicing the engines, cleaning my toilet when they can have their own yacht if they wanted?

I asked if you would be prepared to do what it takes... which was in regards to ending poverty.

You assume that people are going to help you.

[jonbuoy]

I asked if you would be prepared to do what it takes... which was in regards to ending poverty.

You assume that people are going to help you.

What is it I need to do to end poverty - please can you explain? I thought getting rid of money was going to do that? If there is no money we can do and take what we want right?

[oldrider]

Mashman is quite correct IMHO regarding his moneyless economy but I also believe that it is too big a step in every way to succeed just now!

The current "corrupt" monitory system has been in existence almost since time began and the flaws that corrupt the system are intentionally man made to gain power!

If the control of the issue of new money (credit) was rested from the current illicit usurers and returned to the nation via the reserve bank for controlled distribution as credit rather than an interest bearing debt the balance between production and consumption could be restored.

This would then allow the current system to operate flawlessly cancelling out the dependency on wars, booms busts and cruel austerity measures and get the economy moving positively again.

Once the system settles down and people generally learn how smoothly it can run then it would be possible to experiment with new measures and systems such as Mashman prescribes!

If we continue to run with a flawed system and expect get a flawless result then that is absolute lunacy.

Adage: If you always do what you have always done, then you will always get what you have always got!

So while the current flawed system is operating "any" political party or government is destined to always get a flawed result, "irrespective"!

Left ..... centre ..... right, it wont make any difference how good they are, they will all ultimately fail, loaded with debt until they are inoperative!

Just check out the history that's freely available to anyone who cares to bother to look!

Get the monitory system sorted and "any" (take your pick) ... left ... centre ... right ... government will stand on it's merits by popular acclaim of it's performance!

[mashman]

What is it I need to do to end poverty - please can you explain? I thought getting rid of money was going to do that? If there is no money we can do and take what we want right?

I'll take that as a yes then. Just carry on being a good buoy.

[jonbuoy]

I'll take that as a yes then. Just carry on being a good buoy.

Come on Mashman - what do I need to do to end poverty? You can´t tell me now?

[Tarded]

Mashman is quite correct IMHO regarding his moneyless economy but I also believe that it is too big a step in every way to succeed just now!

The current "corrupt" monitory system has been in existence almost since time began and the flaws that corrupt the system are intentionally man made to gain power!

If the control of the issue of new money (credit) was rested from the current illicit usurers and returned to the nation via the reserve bank for controlled distribution as credit rather than an interest bearing debt the balance between production and consumption could be restored.

This would then allow the current system to operate flawlessly cancelling out the dependency on wars, booms busts and cruel austerity measures and get the economy moving positively again.

Once the system settles down and people generally learn how smoothly it can run then it would be possible to experiment with new measures and systems such as Mashman prescribes!

If we continue to run with a flawed system and expect get a flawless result then that is absolute lunacy.

Adage: If you always do what you have always done, then you will always get what you have always got!

So while the current flawed system is operating "any" political party or government is destined to always get a flawed result, "irrespective"!

Left ..... centre ..... right, it wont make any difference how good they are, they will all ultimately fail, loaded with debt until they are inoperative!

Just check out the history that's freely available to anyone who cares to bother to look!

Get the monitory system sorted and "any" (take your pick) ... left ... centre ... right ... government will stand on it's merits by popular acclaim of it's performance!

And in the mean time teach kids to save? Didnt this come in at the beginning? :killingme

The OP has a mental illness or personality disorder. Im not quite experienced enough to say which.
This is not a jibe or veiled criticism. Im not that subtle.

You cant change human psyche. His or the worlds.
Its just how it is man :bleh:

[jonbuoy]

I´m sure Mashmans intentions are well meant - maybe he doesn´t understand greed because he´s not greedy.

[mashman]

Come on Mashman - what do I need to do to end poverty? You can´t tell me now?

I just did.


I´m sure Mashmans intentions are well meant - maybe he doesn´t understand greed because he´s not greedy.

:rofl:... you think I've always thought this way? How quaint.

[mashman]

And in the mean time teach kids to save? Didnt this come in at the beginning? :killingme

The OP has a mental illness or personality disorder. Im not quite experienced enough to say which.
This is not a jibe or veiled criticism. Im not that subtle.

You cant change human psyche. His or the worlds.
Its just how it is man :bleh:

I'll tell you which I have. Neither. I am experienced, because I know me, as do plenty of others and one thing they wouldn't call me is mentally ill or disordered. I function perfectly well in the world every day, primarily laughing and smiling with others. Just going on experience like.

I changed my "human psyche". You're wrong. My wife changed hers. You're wrong. After explaining to friends they have changed theirs. You're wrong. There are already people who have considered this that live in NZ. You're wrong. In essence, you're wrong. If you can't change yourself, then you are a weak willed being with zero knowledge of the human mind let alone how human beings react in their environment. I'm not subtle either :bleh:

[mashman]

Mashman is quite correct IMHO regarding his moneyless economy but I also believe that it is too big a step in every way to succeed just now!

The current "corrupt" monitory system has been in existence almost since time began and the flaws that corrupt the system are intentionally man made to gain power!

If the control of the issue of new money (credit) was rested from the current illicit usurers and returned to the nation via the reserve bank for controlled distribution as credit rather than an interest bearing debt the balance between production and consumption could be restored.

This would then allow the current system to operate flawlessly cancelling out the dependency on wars, booms busts and cruel austerity measures and get the economy moving positively again.

Once the system settles down and people generally learn how smoothly it can run then it would be possible to experiment with new measures and systems such as Mashman prescribes!

If we continue to run with a flawed system and expect get a flawless result then that is absolute lunacy.

Adage: If you always do what you have always done, then you will always get what you have always got!

So while the current flawed system is operating "any" political party or government is destined to always get a flawed result, "irrespective"!

Left ..... centre ..... right, it wont make any difference how good they are, they will all ultimately fail, loaded with debt until they are inoperative!

Just check out the history that's freely available to anyone who cares to bother to look!

Get the monitory system sorted and "any" (take your pick) ... left ... centre ... right ... government will stand on it's merits by popular acclaim of it's performance!

A long term plan eh. Shame you have to get it past the morons wrapped in stupid. Fortunately most of them ride motorcycles and are a minority, well, a majority of them.

[jonbuoy]

I just did.



:rofl:... you think I've always thought this way? How quaint.

No you haven't - how do you end poverty, what is my role in it?

[mashman]

No you haven't - how do you end poverty, what is my role in it?

Just carry on being a good buoy.

[jonbuoy]

Just carry on being a good buoy.

So you don´t have the answer?

[avgas]

How many people are there in the country that do your job? Would it be possible that you would spend a little time training 3 or 4 others to share the burden of your role (providing backup), then replacing you to go off and do what you want?
True story. I once was a in a position helping the better of man kind with no pay. A group of us was working on various projects and the primary beneficiaries said to us "What do you want?"
"We want to teach you how this works so that we can leave it with you"
.......

5% of the said beneficiaries turned up to be trained. None hung around after the training to take over the system.
We eventually burned out supporting a system that did not benefit us. It died with us.

Similar thing have happened in the Islands.

After seeing these failures. Fuck em, you want me - show me, or at bare minimum pay me. Otherwise the only satisfaction you are offering me is the ability at the end to step back and watch it burn.
Rand was a loopy bint - but in all that crazy talk she had one good point. If you don't respect anything, you deserve nothing.
The fact the entire system (any system - even yours) is no money, its not greed.........it the core fundamental of people.
Someone people will always find a way to take the ride, and some will be fooled to pull the carriage. If the guy pulling the carriage is given the opportunity to fuck off and live away from the whole thing.............he is going to take it.
You call money a shackle, well some of us a good a running away without em.
:Pokey:

[avgas]

No you haven't - how do you end poverty, what is my role in it?
Security Guard.
http://www.toptenz.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/prison-sante.jpg

[avgas]

with a paper thin wafer perhaps?
You think thats tuna in your sandwich?

[mashman]

So you don´t have the answer?

I just gave you an answer.

[mashman]

True story. I once was a in a position helping the better of man kind with no pay. A group of us was working on various projects and the primary beneficiaries said to us "What do you want?"
"We want to teach you how this works so that we can leave it with you"
.......

5% of the said beneficiaries turned up to be trained. None hung around after the training to take over the system.
We eventually burned out supporting a system that did not benefit us. It died with us.


Is that because they weren't being paid at the end of the training?



Similar thing have happened in the Islands.

After seeing these failures. Fuck em, you want me - show me, or at bare minimum pay me. Otherwise the only satisfaction you are offering me is the ability at the end to step back and watch it burn.
Rand was a loopy bint - but in all that crazy talk she had one good point. If you don't respect anything, you deserve nothing.
The fact the entire system (any system - even yours) is no money, its not greed.........it the core fundamental of people.
Someone people will always find a way to take the ride, and some will be fooled to pull the carriage. If the guy pulling the carriage is given the opportunity to fuck off and live away from the whole thing.............he is going to take it.
You call money a shackle, well some of us a good a running away without em.
:Pokey:

Well you'll get your wish given the current way we live. Quite possibly in our lifetime.
Very true in regards to the respect. Perhaps we can teach a generation to have some? As I said earlier, I'm willing to give it a bash to see if it can work. Better trying that never knowing?
And if the people pulling the carriage are happy to pull the carriage? They're fools? or are they just hard workers who have that respect thing you're talking about?
There is already an easy way out. It's called the dole. Why don't more people take that option?

[jonbuoy]

I just gave you an answer.

Nope - no answer there.......

[scumdog]

There is already an easy way out. It's called the dole. Why don't more people take that option?

I don't 'cos I'm greedy and materialistic, I want toys, travel, a sound house I actually own etc.


And I wouldn't like being called a lazy-arsed leech...