Who bought the Sarin gas into Syria?

[flyingcrocodile46]

If El Qaeda bought the Saran gas into Syria (probably the same cache as was recovered from Iraq that was left over from the supplies that Rumsfield gave to Sadam), why are the US and Nato accusing Assad of using the chemical weapons?

Why are Nato and the US helping El Qaeda take over Syria?

http://larouchepac.com/node/26795
Al Nusra Caught with Sarin Gas in Turkey
June 1, 2013 • 9:05AM
It is now confirmed that it is the Syrian opposition that is using poison gas. According to the Turkish daily, Today's Zaman and other Turkish media, seven members of the al-Qaeda-linked terror group al-Nusra were detained on May 29 after police found 2 kilograms of sarin gas, which was being prepared to be used in a bomb attack. The 12 suspects were arrested following a search of their houses in southern provinces of Adana and Mersin May 27. They were said to have been planning an attack in Adana on May 31. Police also discovered hand guns, grenades, and ammunition.






Qatar behind transfer of chemicals to Syria militants: Report

Syrians gather near a hospital following a deadly chemical attack in the city of Aleppo on March 19, 2013.
Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:40PM GMT


On May 30, Turkish media reported that two kilograms of sarin gas as well as heavy weapons had been discovered during raids on the homes of 12 members of the al-Qaeda-affiliated al-Nusra Front in Turkey’s southern city of Adana, located some 150 kilometers (93 miles) from the border with Syria."


A new report has revealed that chemical arms used by Takfiri militants in an attack near Syria’s northwestern province of Aleppo in March had been provided by two Qatari officers through Turkey.


According to a Saturday report by the Lebanese newspaper al-Akhbar, Qatari officers Fahd Saeed al-Hajiri and Faleh Bin Khalid al-Tamimi were behind the transfer of chemical substances to anti-Syria militants through Ankara.

The Qatari officers were later killed in a suspicious explosion in Somalia in May, the report said.

On March 19, over two dozen people were killed and many others injured when foreign-backed militants fired missiles containing a chemical substance into the Khan al-Assal region in the northwestern city of Aleppo, Syria’s official news agency SANA reported.



http://www.albawaba.com/news/syria-rebels-sarin-489607

UN has testimony Syrian rebels used sarin gas
Published May 6th, 2013 - 09:14 GMT via SyndiGate.info (http://www.syndigate.info)



Carla del Ponte speaking at a press conference in February 2013 (Fabrice Coffrini/AFP)


The UN has gathered testimony that Syrian rebels have used the nerve agent sarin, the BBC reported.
The United Nations independent commission of inquiry on Syria has evidence from victims and medical staff in Syria that the gas has been used by rebel forces. The commission has no evidence that governmnet forces have used chemical weapons, commission member Carla del Ponte said on Sunday.
It seems pretty obvious that the US & Nato are backing the wrong horse and may be doing so from the owners box.




Should we just ignore this and watch as another million innocents are murdered during these US/UK/Nato driven regime changes?

[mashman]

What a fuckin mess.

Should we just ignore this and watch as another million innocents are murdered during these US/UK/Nato driven regime changes?

What do you propose?

[MIXONE]

What do you propose?

Burn them...

[AllanB]

Why does the US stick it's nose into another countries business anytime? Usually involved fuel or something they ultimately want to be able to control.

[carbonhed]

Why would anybody have to bring Sarin into Syria? They've got their own chemical weapons stockpile.

How you can blame this bloodbath on the West when it's transparently arab against arab with persians lending a helping hand beggars belief.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Why would anybody have to bring Sarin into Syria? They've got their own chemical weapons stockpile.

How you can blame this bloodbath on the West when it's transparently arab against arab with persians lending a helping hand beggars belief.

Click the links read the stories to understand who is blaming who and who is gassing who. The gas is just another black flag attack orchestrated by the US.

The gas is nothing by comparison to what the US have openly done in Iraq by spreading over 600 tons of depleted uranium liberally atomized all over the country, contaminating all of the food and water in Iraq. Children are being born with deformities all over the place. The US have committed genocide using slow release poison. Why on earth would anyone even think to make bullets and bombs out of depleted uranium if genocide was not the intention from the outset? Answer that if you can. I can't think of one possible reason (other than genocide). Can you think of one?

The fact that this really happened and was widely advertised on news channels throughout the west at the time it was happening and NOBODY EVEN BLINKED That really does beggar belief yet is 100% true. Where is the worlds indignation of that atrocity?

Try to imagine the levels they will stoop to in light of that commonly known but little discussed fact. I mean... Can you go any lower???

[flyingcrocodile46]

What do you propose? To start?
Not to sit quietly on the sidelines with eyes and ears closed is a much better start than 95%+ of the reponse from the western world. That seems like a not unreasonable place to start.

Start talking about it with people, make them aware. The more people talk about it, the bigger the stink will become and the harder for them to continue unquestioned.

The sheep of the world need to wake the fuck up and start bleating. The wolves are circling and attacking continuously.

[Ocean1]

the US have openly done in Iraq by spreading over 600 tons of depleted uranium liberally atomized all over the country, contaminating all of the food and water in Iraq. Children are being born with deformities all over the place.

Heavy-metal nephrotoxicity has not been noted in either animal studies or Gulf War veteran cohort studies despite markedly elevated urinary uranium excretion. No significant residual environmental contamination has been found in geographical areas exposed to DU. As such, although continued surveillance of exposed cohorts and environments (particularly water sources) are recommended, current data would support the position that DU poses neither a radiological nor chemical threat.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15080241

[flyingcrocodile46]

Heavy-metal nephrotoxicity has not been noted in either animal studies or Gulf War veteran cohort studies despite markedly elevated urinary uranium excretion. No significant residual environmental contamination has been found in geographical areas exposed to DU. As such, although continued surveillance of exposed cohorts and environments (particularly water sources) are recommended, current data would support the position that DU poses neither a radiological nor chemical threat.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15080241

Relying on an obscure American clinic study is about as reliable as relying on the tobacco industry studies on smoking.

[Ocean1]

Relying on an obscure American clinic study is about as reliable as relying on the tobacco industry studies on smoking.

*Shrugs* It was the first in a rather long list, and I'm not sure you could call the US National Library of Medicine an obscure clinic. WHO appears to agree with them.

I don't believe the stuff's utterly harmless, on the other hand I'm a little wary of cries of wolf surrounding the supposed toxicity of some element or other by eco-warriors that don't actually have a clue.

But yes, the US isn't always a good international citizen.

[flyingcrocodile46]

*Shrugs* It was the first in a rather long list, and I'm not sure you could call the US National Library of Medicine an obscure clinic. WHO appears to agree with them.

I don't believe the stuff's utterly harmless, on the other hand I'm a little wary of cries of wolf surrounding the supposed toxicity of some element or other by eco-warriors that don't actually have a clue.

But yes, the US isn't always a good international citizen.


The very logical and revealing question as to why they are making ammunitition from depleted uranium in the first instance is completely ignored. What possible reason can there be other than because it is the weapon that keeps on killing?

The WHO did not study the long term effects on the Human body.

The US National Library of medicine My Arse.... Sztajnkrycer MD (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Sztajnkrycer%20MD%5BAuthor%5D&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=15080241), Otten EJ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Otten%20EJ%5BAuthor%5D&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=15080241). Source Department of Emergency Medicine, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, MN 55905, USA.

As for clueless Eco-warroirs, what a load of shit. It is doctors and scientists that are exposing the effects of the depleted uranium. The "little wary" ones (lets call them denial warriors) who don't want to be made aware of the real facts, and who would rather pretend everything is allright, are the ones to be regarded as clueless.


The Guardian (now all but banned in the US http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/26/iraqis-cant-turn-backs-on-deadly-legacy

he dust in Iraq (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/iraq) rolls down the long roads that are the desert's fingers. It gets in your eyes and nose and throat; it swirls in markets and school playgrounds, consuming children kicking a ball; and it carries, according to Dr Jawad Al-Ali (http://www.rauhanpuolustajat.fi/kuvat/seminaariraportti.pdf), "the seeds of our death". An internationally respected cancer specialist at the Sadr teaching hospital in Basra, Dr Ali told me that in 1999, and today his warning is irrefutable. "Before the Gulf war," he said, "we had two or three cancer patients a month. Now we have 30 to 35 dying every month. Our studies indicate that 40 to 48% of the population in this area will get cancer: in five years' time to begin with, then long after. That's almost half the population. Most of my own family have it, and we have no history of the disease. It is like Chernobyl here; the genetic effects are new to us; the mushrooms grow huge; even the grapes in my garden have mutated and can't be eaten."



'Falluja Babies' and Depleted Uranium -- America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq

Two US-led wars in Iraq have left behind hundreds of tons of depleted uranium munitions and other toxic wastes.



March 18, 2013


Fallujah, Iraq - Contamination from Depleted Uranium (DU) munitions and other military-related pollution is suspected of causing a sharp rises in congenital birth defects, cancer cases, and other illnesses throughout much of Iraq.
Many prominent doctors and scientists contend that DU contamination is also connected to the recent emergence of diseases that were not previously seen in Iraq, such as new illnesses in the kidney, lungs, and liver, as well as total immune system collapse. DU contamination may also be connected to the steep rise in leukaemia, renal, and anaemia cases, especially among children, being reported throughout many Iraqi governorates.
There has also been a dramatic jump in miscarriages and premature births among Iraqi women, particularly in areas where heavy US military operations occurred, such as Fallujah.
Official Iraqi government statistics show that, prior to the outbreak of the First Gulf War in 1991, the rate of cancer cases in Iraq was 40 out of 100,000 people. By 1995, it had increased to 800 out of 100,000 people, and, by 2005, it had doubled to at least 1,600 out of 100,000 people. Current estimates show the increasing trend continuing.



Open your eyes to this IF YOU CAN What it does to war veterans


http://youtu.be/xQcCWaLXXJI

[paturoa]

Sarin has a very short shelf life, weeks for home cooked and only months or a couple of years for high grade stuff. So it was either made there (not too hard to make) or was high grade made recently elsewhere.

Another important question to be asked, is who is currently making the stuff?

[mashman]

*Shrugs* It was the first in a rather long list, and I'm not sure you could call the US National Library of Medicine an obscure clinic. WHO appears to agree with them.

I don't believe the stuff's utterly harmless, on the other hand I'm a little wary of cries of wolf surrounding the supposed toxicity of some element or other by eco-warriors that don't actually have a clue.

But yes, the US isn't always a good international citizen.

Information about Uranium (http://www.bandepleteduranium.org/en/overview)... including an opinion on why the WHO say that uranium is harmless.

"WHO ‘suppressed’ scientific study into depleted uranium cancer fears in Iraq: Sunday Herald - 22 February 2004" (http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2004/03/05/world_health_organisation_blocked_depleted_uranium _study.htm)... Believe what you will.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Information about Uranium (http://www.bandepleteduranium.org/en/overview)... including an opinion on why the WHO say that uranium is harmless.

"WHO ‘suppressed’ scientific study into depleted uranium cancer fears in Iraq: Sunday Herald - 22 February 2004" (http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2004/03/05/world_health_organisation_blocked_depleted_uranium _study.htm)... Believe what you will.

That should loosen any sphincter sufficiently to extract even the biggest of heads. :yes:

Just kidding Ocean, I know you are only testing the water

[mashman]

To start?
Not to sit quietly on the sidelines with eyes and ears closed is a much better start than 95%+ of the reponse from the western world. That seems like a not unreasonable place to start.

Start talking about it with people, make them aware. The more people talk about it, the bigger the stink will become and the harder for them to continue unquestioned.

The sheep of the world need to wake the fuck up and start bleating. The wolves are circling and attacking continuously.

Not to start, no. Those discussions have been had at the highest levels for decades and irrespective of whether the public has the knowledge of what their govts will happily sanction based on selective advice, nothing has changed. As you say, the reason you build a weapon is to use it.

Unfortunately any form of public education takes money and it's money that will be poured into a metaphorical pit. I can only guess the pit is why so many of those with the funds to burn don't raise their voice. There's just no profit in it and given that the fallout could be huge and the economy could be affected etc... I can see why it's filed into the too hard basket. Funding was blamed, along with land mines, as one of the main reasons that research into DU usage in the Balkans was stopped. Even if we could pin the tail on the donkey, what does that achieve? A scalp? Pretty pointless really, unless of course an admission of guilt appeases a person. (it doesn't for me, because they don't learn, not really, they merely change tactics)

It's hardly going to be an election winner really is it. Sure the population would know. Sure the population would be incensed. Sure there may be the odd protest and a lobby or two, but none of it addresses the problem eh. Unfortunately none of us know how far down the track we are. The start has been there since before Fawkes attempted to blow up parliament. So where are we in the game? We're certainly not at the start are we?


That should loosen any sphincter sufficiently to extract even the biggest of heads. :yes:

Highly unlikely. It is apparent that TPTB (the real ones) are more than happy to ply their trade over centuries. It's like those who have religion, TPTB believe that certain things can only be a certain way for human beings to survive... I'm just as guilty of that albeit with a different way of accomplishing the same goals (at least I hope the goals are the same), although I'm right ;). What "we're" fighting against is centuries old and is a dyed in the wool belief, logic does not apply and reason is a one way street, so no amount of anal stretching will change those minds as they need real life examples in order to gain comprehension. Where the driver for doing things accepts human losses as inevitable, there is no reason or logic and by default there will be no examples for the less imaginative to comprehend both what is really going on as well as what could be.

[Voltaire]

To start?
Not to sit quietly on the sidelines with eyes and ears closed is a much better start than 95%+ of the reponse from the western world. That seems like a not unreasonable place to start.

Start talking about it with people, make them aware. The more people talk about it, the bigger the stink will become and the harder for them to continue unquestioned.

The sheep of the world need to wake the fuck up and start bleating. The wolves are circling and attacking continuously.

Hi Croc, As bad as all this is, its nearly 100 years ago that all the old men sent the young men off to a war that started out of an incident in Serbia.
Millions of lives later they called time until the next round in 1939, when millions more lost their lives.
Would seem to me its the US and Russia fighting proxy wars as they did after WW2.
I only watch the 'newsotainment" on the TV so not really up on world affairs as reported by the Western Media.
Maaaaaaaa.....maaaaaaaaa.......:(
May I suggest a visit to the cemeteries on the banks of the Somme and Verdun to anyone who thinks wars solve anything, sobering sight.

[flyingcrocodile46]

I understand 'Mashman' and I know that it started much earlier than that Voltaire. But to ignore or fail to act on knowledge of it in the hope of what? What does that achieve?

Ignorance allows those who push these agendas to more freely and more frequently plow ahead with the murder and suffering of millions of human lives.

Knowingly being ignorant or acquiring knowledge and sitting on the sidelines ignoring it is to condone it.

Apathy in the face of evil (no matter how well packaged) is evil.

[mashman]

Open your eyes to this IF YOU CAN What it does to war veterans


http://youtu.be/xQcCWaLXXJI

That end of the above doco you posted earlier continues at 43:00.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RRG8nUDbVXU

[mashman]

I understand 'Mashman' and I know that it started much earlier than that Voltaire. But to ignore or fail to act on knowledge of it in the hope of what? What does that achieve?

Ignorance allows those who push these agendas to more freely and more frequently plow ahead with the murder and suffering of millions of human lives.

Knowingly being ignorant or acquiring knowledge and sitting on the sidelines ignoring it is to condone it.

Apathy in the face of evil (no matter how well packaged) is evil.

Funny, that was my question to you :). You're right, it achieves nothing... but neither has direct action from recognised organisations that have raised the issue with research to backup the claims. That leaves us where? and whilst I don't mind shoving shit uphill, the hill I'd shove it too is the very same hill/recognised organisations that have already raised the issue. Catch 22. The only way you get to stop this from happening is to become the President/Prime Minister/Premier and have a group of people that will back your decisions.

I'm fully aware of my guilt and my role in allowing this to happen and as has been said by (well there's a debate over who said it :facepalm: fuckin semantics) "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing". I have every excuse under the sun to do as little as I am doing and given that there is no one to raise my concerns to that has the power to stop what is happening, well, anyone that will listen, I'm back to my original question: What do you propose?

[flyingcrocodile46]

Funny, that was my question to you :). You're right, it achieves nothing... but neither has direct action from recognised organisations that have raised the issue with research to backup the claims. That leaves us where? and whilst I don't mind shoving shit uphill, the hill I'd shove it too is the very same hill/recognised organisations that have already raised the issue. Catch 22. The only way you get to stop this from happening is to become the President/Prime Minister/Premier and have a group of people that will back your decisions.

I'm fully aware of my guilt and my role in allowing this to happen and as has been said by (well there's a debate over who said it :facepalm: fuckin semantics) "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing". I have every excuse under the sun to do as little as I am doing and given that there is no one to raise my concerns to that has the power to stop what is happening, well, anyone that will listen, I'm back to my original question: What do you propose?

The problem that earlier efforts faced is the same as that of today. Audience apathy and their tendancy to comfort themselves n the face of unsettling topics, by labelling it as conspiracy nonsence.

The answer is to increase efforts to wake up those who are sleeping through it. Keeping it in peoples faces until they actually look at the problem head on and acknoweldge the reality of it. If enough people become conscious of reality then they can effect it. But it has to be a big percentage of the population all around the world in order to effect change.

[Voltaire]

I can't be bothered Googling but wasn't Bin laden appalled by the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan that he went there to fight for them?

Back in the late 30's the USSR and Nazi Germany got involved in Spains civil war, if I recall lots of young men volunteered and fought with the International Brigade.

Bit of a Hobsons choice with those two supporter though.

The world stood by for that one too.

Then there was Korea, where the Americans took on the Chinese via the UN,

Vietnam, China Vs America again,

and so on....

I can't imagine that Syria has much of a functioning economy so its probably the US and Russia again?

The quote about good men doing nothing, attributed to Edmund Burke, it took the Irish 800 years to get rid of the English. :innocent:

[mashman]

The problem that earlier efforts faced is the same as that of today. Audience apathy and their tendancy to comfort themselves n the face of unsettling topics, by labelling it as conspiracy nonsence.

The answer is to increase efforts to wake up those who are sleeping through it. Keeping it in peoples faces until they actually look at the problem head on and acknoweldge the reality of it. If enough people become conscious of reality then they can effect it. But it has to be a big percentage of the population all around the world in order to effect change.

I agree to a large extent, although if the people making the decisions had listened to the experts in the first place, we wouldn't be discussing it. I fail to see why they would listen to their people as they generally don't where it matters. All I can see is a Turkey/Brazil/Egypt/Jordan/Arab Spring/Occupy/Smaking Bill response from TPTB. Something else needs to take their place before the changes we would like to see can be taken seriously.

The downside is that we're leaving that decision up to the individual. As much as that is what needs to happen, will there ever be enough people to lobby their govt to make the change required? There may well be and for all of our wanting and trying to offer the knowledge, there will still be the same people in the same positions making the same decisions... and as it runs out, they are willing to use deadly force against their populations to defend their decisions. I think enough of us are conscious of the atrocity's that take place and that are done with our silent blessing, but we still run into the same roadblocks. I'm not saying that that is the way it will be, not really, but it is the way it seems to have been. The population need to be offered alternatives. Currently they aren't and those alternatives need to come from the decision makers to gain real exposure imho. As you say, anything we say can be dismissed as the ravings of a conspiracy loon irrespective of the evidence put forwards. I think if you get 1 country to get their shit together, others will follow. It's a lot like fashion. We need the seasons new black and that comes from those who decide what is fashion in the first place.

[mashman]

The quote about good men doing nothing, attributed to Edmund Burke, it took the Irish 800 years to get rid of the English. :innocent:

It can take a single election to get rid of the white mutha fuckers here :msn-wink:

[flyingcrocodile46]

I agree to a large extent, although if the people making the decisions had listened to the experts in the first place, we wouldn't be discussing it. I fail to see why they would listen to their people as they generally don't where it matters. All I can see is a Turkey/Brazil/Egypt/Jordan/Arab Spring/Occupy/Smaking Bill response from TPTB. Something else needs to take their place before the changes we would like to see can be taken seriously.

The downside is that we're leaving that decision up to the individual. As much as that is what needs to happen, will there ever be enough people to lobby their govt to make the change required? There may well be and for all of our wanting and trying to offer the knowledge, there will still be the same people in the same positions making the same decisions... and as it runs out, they are willing to use deadly force against their populations to defend their decisions. I think enough of us are conscious of the atrocity's that take place and that are done with our silent blessing, but we still run into the same roadblocks. I'm not saying that that is the way it will be, not really, but it is the way it seems to have been. The population need to be offered alternatives. Currently they aren't and those alternatives need to come from the decision makers to gain real exposure imho. As you say, anything we say can be dismissed as the ravings of a conspiracy loon irrespective of the evidence put forwards. I think if you get 1 country to get their shit together, others will follow. It's a lot like fashion. We need the seasons new black and that comes from those who decide what is fashion in the first place.

I hear you, but one or two countries won't be enough unless others come on stream real fast. Libya took less than a year to overthrow once the decision was made.

There is a lot of dissent around the world already. I think much of it is expressed as misdirected unconscious awareness of need for change, that is largely unfocused and directed at things like unaffordable soccer stadiums or drug induced rebellions.

It's almost like you have to form a international support network for national coordination of education and action. No doubt such activity would very quickly be labelled as a terrorist group. We need to develop paranormal communications :yes:

Your move

[mashman]

I hear you, but one or two countries won't be enough unless others come on stream real fast. Libya took less than a year to overthrow once the decision was made.

There is a lot of dissent around the world already. I think much of it is expressed as misdirected unconscious awareness of need for change, that is largely unfocused and directed at things like unaffordable soccer stadiums or drug induced rebellions.

It's almost like you have to form a international support network for national coordination of education and action. No doubt such activity would very quickly be labelled as a terrorist group. We need to develop paranormal communications :yes:

Your move

I am sending this message via telepathy, but just in case... Yup, it takes a wee bit of time for a regime change what with all of the squabbling and positioning to claim the ultimate power (insert evil laugh). However I got back to the Arab Spring and how quickly they sprang to life (supposedly all started by a fruit vendor in Tunisia setting himself in on fire because TPTB slowly eeked away his living). Someone always has to go first and after that the flood gates should, in theory, open.

That's very true. That's a "problem" I noted with Occupy. They were all voicing concern for their own causes and it caused confusion amongst the population as to what Occupy was about. As you highlight, they were all looking for the same thing, change, but what they didn't/couldn't/wouldn't do was to force the issue and as such corruption, inappropriate spending, education/healthcare/welfare reform, environmental concerns, anti-war protesters etc... all remained issues to be tackled individually. Again though, they weren't listened to, moreover they became a target to be beaten and ridiculed by those who think the world works. The decision makers don't have to listen... Friends, Kiwi, Countrymen listen to our fears... and boy do they.

:rofl: Aye, how to communicate your intentions without being considered a terrorist. There are global support networks out there, from the RSA to The Zeitgeist Movement, but they all have the same problem as Occupy imho. It must be easier to coordinate locally? Although what are you going to communicate? Them other country's iz bad, tell them off would ya?

It always has been (all of ours), although for me it just took a while to figure that out and all I need now is the money :killingme

[flyingcrocodile46]

I am sending this message via telepathy, but just in case... Yup, it takes a wee bit of time for a regime change what with all of the squabbling and positioning to claim the ultimate power (insert evil laugh). However I got back to the Arab Spring and how quickly they sprang to life (supposedly all started by a fruit vendor in Tunisia setting himself in on fire because TPTB slowly eeked away his living). Someone always has to go first and after that the flood gates should, in theory, open.

That's very true. That's a "problem" I noted with Occupy. They were all voicing concern for their own causes and it caused confusion amongst the population as to what Occupy was about. As you highlight, they were all looking for the same thing, change, but what they didn't/couldn't/wouldn't do was to force the issue and as such corruption, inappropriate spending, education/healthcare/welfare reform, environmental concerns, anti-war protesters etc... all remained issues to be tackled individually. Again though, they weren't listened to, moreover they became a target to be beaten and ridiculed by those who think the world works. The decision makers don't have to listen... Friends, Kiwi, Countrymen listen to our fears... and boy do they.

:rofl: Aye, how to communicate your intentions without being considered a terrorist. There are global support networks out there, from the RSA to The Zeitgeist Movement, but they all have the same problem as Occupy imho. It must be easier to coordinate locally? Although what are you going to communicate? Them other country's iz bad, tell them off would ya?

It always has been (all of ours), although for me it just took a while to figure that out and all I need now is the money :killingme

Lot of truth there

Maybe all that can be done is to spread the message and wait in hope for critical mass.

[mashman]

Lot of truth there

Maybe all that can be done is to spread the message and wait in hope for critical mass.

Like we have a choice... which of course we do as that's only A truth. Funny, I briefly wrote about how it happened, yesterday afternoon (http://www.now-nz.com/) ;)

[flyingcrocodile46]

Like we have a choice... which of course we do as that's only A truth. Funny, I briefly wrote about how it happened, yesterday afternoon (http://www.now-nz.com/) ;)


Oh! You're a genuine lunatic. A pretty story linked to a lot of reading.

Will get back to you ;)

[mashman]

Oh! You're a genuine lunatic. A pretty story linked to a lot of reading.

Will get back to you ;)

:killingme... Aye, the real deal :D. As for the reading, meh, I only wish I could write and/or had the time and resources (i.e. money to pay people who can write and think) to make it more interesting and possibly even turn it into a political manifesto. It all takes money to do it properly, ironically.

ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaa

[Ocean1]

The very logical and revealing question as to why they are making ammunitition from depleted uranium in the first instance is completely ignored. What possible reason can there be other than because it is the weapon that keeps on killing?

No secret there, it's more rigid and more dense than lead, which makes it ideal against armour.

Any secondary nefarious intent outside of that original design is almost certainly considered as undesirable by the US army as anyone else, rather than any intended bonus kill points.

Again, I'm not condoning it's use, I'm simply commenting on the utter impossibility of obtaining accurate, unspun information on it's effects, then or now. Like a lot of other hugely politicised topics this century it's all but impossible to get at the truth.

[flyingcrocodile46]

No secret there, it's more rigid and more dense than lead, which makes it ideal against armour.

Any secondary nefarious intent outside of that original design is almost certainly considered as undesirable by the US army as anyone else, rather than any intended bonus kill points.

Again, I'm not condoning it's use, I'm simply commenting on the utter impossibility of obtaining accurate, unspun information on it's effects, then or now. Like a lot of other hugely politicised topics this century it's all but impossible to get at the truth.

Get at, or... find a level of evidence proportional to that of the discomfort of the possible or even probable truth in the face of so much comforting smoke and official denials? It all depends on how you want to look at it I guess. We all have to find the level that we believe is right for us as individuals.

The important thing is that we don't shut ourselves off from evidence of uncomfortable possibilities of truth. Especially given overwhelming evidence of the one ever dependable constant... 'consistent deception of the public during and preceding wars by way of false flag attacks and outright lies in the form of alleged threats to security posed by the intended victim'.

Not to forget the well documented evidence of CIA training and ownership of rebel forces such as El Qaeda (a driving force in the Syrian and Libyan rebellions). It all must be weighed to properly assess what the probabilities are. One thing you can be sure of... what you see in the mainstream media and more particularly what the American and British leaders are saying, will be very very misleading.

[Ocean1]

Get at, or... find a level of evidence proportional to that of the discomfort of the truth in the face of so much comforting smoke and official denials? It all depends on how you want to look at it I guess. We all have to find the level that we believe is right for us as individuals.

The variable I check in lieu of obvious truth isn't comfort, it's the level of confidence that can be assigned to the source. Generally any document/webpage/book displaying a collection of statements aligned too closely with any identifiable political entity gets ignored. Might be 100% correct, but my experience prejudices my acceptance of any document that looks too much like it holds a political stance.

If that means I miss the final enlightenment then fine, I'll be late to Valhalla. You can have my boar and mead, I simply don't have enough minutes in my life to believe everyone else's beliefs.

[Voltaire]

It can take a single election to get rid of the white mutha fuckers here :msn-wink:

Elections? that's where the pubic get tired of whoever and vote in the other guys who looked good on the tele.

Why do we need local MP's.....with the technology at hand we could just have referendums on everything at 99 cents a time....EG, second Harbour Crossing, North Shore rate payers to pay....or waste of time Auckland underground that goes nowhere business round table to pay and so forth.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Elections? that's where the pubic get tired of whoever and vote in the other guys who looked good on the tele.

Why do we need local MP's.....with the technology at hand we could just have referendums on everything at 99 cents a time....EG, second Harbour Crossing, North Shore rate payers to pay....or waste of time Auckland underground that goes nowhere business round table to pay and so forth.

What a cunning plan:niceone:

[mashman]

Elections? that's where the pubic get tired of whoever and vote in the other guys who looked good on the tele.

Why do we need local MP's.....with the technology at hand we could just have referendums on everything at 99 cents a time....EG, second Harbour Crossing, North Shore rate payers to pay....or waste of time Auckland underground that goes nowhere business round table to pay and so forth.

heh heh heh... yup, that's them. A useful system should you have anything different to offer.

Because currently we crave accountability. Someone to blame should things go tits up... shit you don't want to be blaming yerself now do ya. Although should you have anything different to offer, such as say, phasing out the MP system and implementing online referenda to "govern" departments of work, perhaps it would be met favourably... however you'll need to hold office first.

A wee note on my concerns in regards to online voting... nope, not the conspiracy of it being rigged, but the fact that those who are uninterested or do not have a stake in any development will quite possibly be outnumbered by those who do and the vote may not go as you expect... especially when you factor in the number of projects on the go at any given time. You will choose the ones you are interested in, the ones that benefit your area and potentially vote to sabotage projects in other areas. There is also the consideration of budget, where at some point you will end up with a project that is sold as doing good for the majority, but at the expense of many projects that will help those less fortunate that may well be sold as helping bludgers. Whilst the mechanism will change, the warfare for project votes will pretty much remain the same. Whilst a great idea, there are potential downsides and there's 2 biggies imho. We're always going to need the decision makers, not necessarily MP's I grant you, but at some point decisions will need to be made and for better or for worse we currently expect heads to roll should things go tits.

[Laava]

How come Katman isn't in here yet?

[Voltaire]

heh heh heh... yup, that's them. A useful system should you have anything different to offer.

Because currently we crave accountability. Someone to blame should things go tits up... shit you don't want to be blaming yerself now do ya. Although should you have anything different to offer, such as say, phasing out the MP system and implementing online referenda to "govern" departments of work, perhaps it would be met favourably... however you'll need to hold office first.

A wee note on my concerns in regards to online voting... nope, not the conspiracy of it being rigged, but the fact that those who are uninterested or do not have a stake in any development will quite possibly be outnumbered by those who do and the vote may not go as you expect... especially when you factor in the number of projects on the go at any given time. You will choose the ones you are interested in, the ones that benefit your area and potentially vote to sabotage projects in other areas. There is also the consideration of budget, where at some point you will end up with a project that is sold as doing good for the majority, but at the expense of many projects that will help those less fortunate that may well be sold as helping bludgers. Whilst the mechanism will change, the warfare for project votes will pretty much remain the same. Whilst a great idea, there are potential downsides and there's 2 biggies imho. We're always going to need the decision makers, not necessarily MP's I grant you, but at some point decisions will need to be made and for better or for worse we currently expect heads to roll should things go tits.

I was only joking with the text in idea.... I have no idea how politics works but after watching it from the sidelines in 4 different countries over the last 30 years I've come to the conclusion that elections are just changing the idiots around.
No way would they give their precious power away to the voters who they probably view as morons.
Why is it that we expect them to resign when they stuff up....they should be made to be ashamed and go back in and sort it out...not go to the back of the class or start a new mini club with our money.
Still, I can't really complain as I'm lucky enough to live here and not Syria. ( sorry croc for thread deviation)

[mashman]

I was only joking with the text in idea.... I have no idea how politics works but after watching it from the sidelines in 4 different countries over the last 30 years I've come to the conclusion that elections are just changing the idiots around.
No way would they give their precious power away to the voters who they probably view as morons.
Why is it that we expect them to resign when they stuff up....they should be made to be ashamed and go back in and sort it out...not go to the back of the class or start a new mini club with our money.
Still, I can't really complain as I'm lucky enough to live here and not Syria. ( sorry croc for thread deviation)

heh... I've heard it touted as a solution to get more people involved in choosing local and national projects. Not by any media, but certainly by folk I spoken to and on other forums. In ways I'm surprised we don't have it yet.
Agreed on the evolution of politicians being somewhat stunted... although I think they should have all assets stripped from them and thrown on the dole for a year before being allowed to make a return... t'would make for some excellent reality TV :D.
Can't complain because you have it better than people in a war torn country? Tis probably the best reason to complain.