Modern "cafe" racers and stuff.

[Bonez]

Came across this French site while doing a bit of research on the W650- http://www.vd-classic.com/EN/access.php?acc=650w# off the shelf stuff for Triumph Truxtons and HD Sporters too.

[James Deuce]

Wow! That looks fantastic.

Did you see that there is a Thruxton racing series in Aus?

[Brains]

That Kwak is a fantastic looking motorcycle, I can certainly see the appeal in these classic era motorcycles.

[Paul in NZ]

Thats a bloody good site all right...

The design ideas are so much in tune with what I personally like with the compact look, nice curves and a careful matching of all the pieces... If I win lotto, a bike or 2 from these guys is on the cards for sure...

It's the 125 but compare this with the std GN?

Or the flat tracker W650. Pipes not quite right but very nice.

Cheers

[Big Dave]

As I've said before - I'm cool with anybody riding - But fuck I don't like W650's.
The embodyment of the Japanese rip off. A copy for it's own sake. A GN250 has more street cred - at least it's not trying to be something it isn't.

[Motu]

The embodyment of the Japanese rip off. A copy for it's own sake.

Ahem,cough,cough - shut that door please,or someones going to drive a shit load of examples through.The big four has been built on that whole concept.

[SpankMe]

Give me a Japanese copy any day. It's a hell of a lot cheaper than the original classic, and most definitely more reliable.

[James Deuce]

As I've said before - I'm cool with anybody riding - But fuck I don't like W650's.
The embodyment of the Japanese rip off. A copy for it's own sake. A GN250 has more street cred - at least it's not trying to be something it isn't.

Ouch.

At least it's a modern interpretaion of a BSA 650, thereby keeping the genetics of a long missed motorcycling legend alive.

[Paul in NZ]

As I've said before - I'm cool with anybody riding - But fuck I don't like W650's.
The embodyment of the Japanese rip off. A copy for it's own sake. A GN250 has more street cred - at least it's not trying to be something it isn't.

Meh! It's all down to personal taste really... Not that I really care but say what you want about copies Dave... I've been there done that and owned or ridden nearly every 'important' pommie bike you can imagine up to and including a Factory Manx (albeit an early one)

Although a good Velo Thuxton and Vincent have thus far escaped me.... Offers gratefully accepted...

The Japanese have a very different view on design and it shows in some of their products but the reality is, by the 1930's virtually every possible combination of infernal combustion engine had been tried someplace.

If you took you thinking to it's conclusion then the latest triumphs are ripoff copies of the first degree. Laverda were building big, top heavy, overpriced, over hyped triples years ago, the Rocket 3? ha! Just a Henderson 4 with a pot lopped off!

In actual fact the Japanese revolutionised motoring, motorcycling and manufacturing processes and copied bugger all... Are you seriously telling me the Honda 750/4 was a copy? It was a brilliant tour deforce of engineering.

Look at the race bikes they produced... Are you telling me an RG500 is a copy of a square 4 Ariel? Bwahahaha... (oh good lord)

I work for a Japanese company and yes, sometimes they do things beyond my understanding... But.. The W650 is no copy. They looked at a 1970 Bonnie and captured the essence of it (yet totally missing the point of it) but still made a better fist of it that that Bloor thingy... A GSXR1000 is more a real bonnie than that is...

Paul N

BTW - A T140 is NOT a proper bonnie either - Just a copy. I love them, but if you have ever ridden a pre-unit T120R you'd know what I mean ...

ps - If you want originality - Moto Guzzi won more championships with a wider range of engine configurations that anyone else....

[James Deuce]

The Kawasaki W1 was a knock off of the BSA A10, another pre-unit Brit. The W650 is a modern reinterpretation of the W1, so it's a copy of a copy. Sort of makes KAwasaki's own I reckon.

[Paul in NZ]

The Kawasaki W1 was a knock off of the BSA A10, another pre-unit Brit. The W650 is a modern reinterpretation of the W1, so it's a copy of a copy. Sort of makes KAwasaki's own I reckon.

OK - Time to put my train spotters hat on...

Close young Jim... But not 'quite' right...

The W650 came about when Kawasaki merged with Meguro. Meguro had built a bike called the K1 which was a copy, not of the A10 but of the A7, the 500cc original BSA twin (and a much better bike btw - I had a 1956 A7SS). Meguro had been building bikes since 1909 and knew a good thing when they saw it!

Note that both the BSA A7 and the Norton Dominator were designed to compete with the Triumph Speed twin and both came up with a similar design that addressed the Triumphs weaknesses, a weak crank, excessive mechanical noise, overheating and a tendancy to puke oil. Hence both featured a cast in pushrod tunnel, a single camshaft, stronger crank and better spacing between the pots... However, Triumphs twincam design always had the edge on excitement and thats what the world (ok the states) wanted!

Anyway - back to Kawasaki!

At the time they took over Meguro, Kawasaki were working on other car projects but once that ended, they decided to go for a Police bike contract for the 1964 Olympic games. No time to design a new engine so they played about with the old K1 and the result was the new W1...

If you really want to know all about it...

Go here...

http://www.khi.co.jp/mcycle/museum/w1/history/index_e.html

Point is... Did BSA and Norton copy Triumph? Or did they come up with their own spin on what the market wanted with a few improvements...

Not much different to what Kawasaki did really...

[James Deuce]

You mean the W1 of course, rather than the W650 which is the recent iteration of that genotype. ;)

[Motu]

The W1 was one of the most blatant copies I've ever seen...unless you check out some of the other Japanese bikes of the late 40s and 50s.The W650 only resembles a Pommy bike.The Japanese also had a lot of manufacturing rights from the allies,and rebuilt using western products.Datsun were using BMC plans,and some early Datsun engine parts fit Austin and Morris's from the 70s,the Nissan Patrol was an Austin Gypsy,Toyota were GM and the Landcruiser is Chev Cargo/GMC.Mitsubishi are licenced to make Jeeps,take the red triangles off and you'll never know - thats where the Pajero comes from.On and on,they just just rehash other companies products.

[Paul in NZ]

The W1 was one of the most blatant copies I've ever seen...unless you check out some of the other Japanese bikes of the late 40s and 50s.The W650 only resembles a Pommy bike.The Japanese also had a lot of manufacturing rights from the allies,and rebuilt using western products.Datsun were using BMC plans,and some early Datsun engine parts fit Austin and Morris's from the 70s,the Nissan Patrol was an Austin Gypsy,Toyota were GM and the Landcruiser is Chev Cargo/GMC.Mitsubishi are licenced to make Jeeps,take the red triangles off and you'll never know - thats where the Pajero comes from.On and on,they just just rehash other companies products.

Exactly - There are fuck all 'clean sheet' orginal designs.

I'll bet a sack full of randy beavers that Mr Bloor and co pulled a shit load of jap multis to bits when deciding on how to build a modern motor... Now is that a copy or just good sense?

[Bonez]

May I recommend P.E Irvings "Motorcycle Engineering" for those without a clue about early motorcycle design :violin:

[Bonez]

Ahem,cough,cough - shut that door please,or someones going to drive a shit load of examples through.The big four has been built on that whole concept.You mean "Triumphs" big four? Cough. cough....

[Bonez]

There were other manufactures with twin cylinder 4 stokes m/c around before and after Turners offerings.

[Paul in NZ]

There were other manufactures with twin cylinder 4 stokes m/c around before and after Turners offerings.

True - but it was the total package that mattered!

However, one interpretation of what you just said is that Turner copied the twin idea and improved on it to make it better.. What a cad... Imagine... (PT)

[Bonez]

True - but it was the total package that mattered!

However, one interpretation of what you just said is that Turner copied the twin idea and improved on it to make it better.. What a cad... Imagine... (PT)Seems to be a pattern forming here don't you think? I feel my sock puppet comment in another thread was spot on :devil2:

[Big Dave]

Meh! but still made a better fist of it that that Bloor thingy... A GSXR1000 is more a real bonnie than that is...




Congrats - That is without doubt the biggest load of bullshit I've read on Kiwi Biker.

[Bonez]

Congrats - That is without doubt the biggest load of bullshit I've read on Kiwi Biker.I think you missed the point.

[Big Dave]

I think you missed the point.

No I didn't - we've had part of this argument before. (the part I take exception too)

I spent a few days swapping rides on these two bikes.
Jump off one - hop on other.
I *know* Bloor's men have made a fucking good fist of re-creating the Bonneville and his stick it up your arse attitude is just some nit-picking old school mentality.


edited for context.

[SPman]

Meh! but still made a better fist of it that that Bloor thingy... A GSXR1000 is more a real bonnie than that is...
In a modern world I think he's right.
A Bonneville was the epitome of fast sport bikes of the era - a modern Bonneville is just a retro throwback with pretensions of style and form and less performance and excitement than the original!
A GSXR 1000 (or similar) is at the cutting edge of motorcycle road sport performance - where the Bonny was when new.........an ultimate "weapon".
The modern Bonny is for old farts with delusions of their youth ......may as well buy a cruiser.......:rofl:

[Bonez]

In a modern world I think he's right.
A Bonneville was the epitome of fast sport bikes of the era - a modern Bonneville is just a retro throwback with pretensions of style and form and less performance and excitement than the original!
A GSXR 1000 (or similar) is at the cutting edge of motorcycle road sport performance - where the Bonny was when new.........an ultimate "weapon".
The modern Bonny is for old farts with delusions of their youth ......may as well buy a cruiser.......:rofl: :psst: I think in these days of market labelling the new bonny, truxton etc do fall into the "cruiser" catogory whereas the W650
is "retro" through and through-18" and 19" wheels on the W650 are a dead give away :clap:

Edit-I know there where earlier Brit bikes with 17" rears. Triumph T100A was one of them.............

[Motu]

True - but it was the total package that mattered!

However, one interpretation of what you just said is that Turner copied the twin idea and improved on it to make it better.. What a cad... Imagine... (PT)

The original Triumph Twin was a Val Page design,all Edward Turner did was a Tightwad Turner redesign and some of GM's Bill Mitchell styling flare,and the Triumph was born.

It always annoys me when people talk about the Bonnie as the epitome of British Twin performance,there were far better handling and more powerful motors....but the Triumph had a certain ''something''....Turner gave it that.To me the Triumph always felt lighter and more peppie than other twins,but it handled like crap and the motor couldn't take a hiding.

[Ixion]

The original Triumph Twin was a Val Page design,all Edward Turner did was a Tightwad Turner redesign and some of GM's Bill Mitchell styling flare,and the Triumph was born.

It always annoys me when people talk about the Bonnie as the epitome of British Twin performance,there were far better handling and more powerful motors....but the Triumph had a certain ''something''....Turner gave it that.To me the Triumph always felt lighter and more peppie than other twins,but it handled like crap and the motor couldn't take a hiding.
The Page twin was different, the 6/1. A 650cc about 1935. Designed with sidecars in mind. Looked very like a BSA A10 (which was designed by Page after he left BSA, so that's not surprising) .

This was one of the secrets of the Turner twin. Prior to the speed Twin, 500cc and up twins were ALWAYS designed with the sidecar market in mind. So they had good bottom end torque, and really strong (and heavy) frames . Turner said "stuff the sidecars" and built a sports 500 twin in a lightweight (read shitty) frame. It was light, fast, and cheap. What Turner was good at, and Page was not good at, was ensuring the the business made money selling his designs. But the Speed Twin was good for its day. 90mph (a good one could hit the ton one way) was something for a 1930s 500.

Noone ever put chairs on Triumphs the frames just weren't up to it (well you COULD, if you insisted) . There was a legend (maybe true) that Turner couldn't actually ride a bike. Noone ever saw him do so, he didn't really care about handling so long as the top speed was high and the bike looked good. Reckon he'd do pretty well as Chief designer of most modern motorcycle companies!.

[Motu]

I really like guys like Edward Turner,is there a biography of him? I've read bits and pieces and can put together in my mind what he was up to,but more background would be great.He was a real character,and everything he touched was unmistakable,he was a designer in the total sense.Val Page made some of the most important designs of the classic era,but he was a backroom boy,Turner was frontroom.

I served my time with a guy who was a ''milkbar cowboy'' in the 50s - he always asked what the hell I wanted to ride a Triumph for,in his day they were considered cheap crap,what the Cops rode...so you could always be sure you could get away from them.But to me the Triumph was light and nippy,it felt like fun to ride,not stodgy like ''the others''.I think this is what endears the Triumph to the romantics...so what if a Norton could ride around the outside of you....it felt faster....and that's all that matters with the rose tinted specs of nostalga....

[Brian d marge]

Actually that all was media hype ...here is the reall story ,,,,I wrote this a while back ..but its all true I tell you ...all true ...( I dont know how to cut and paste so its in word at the bottom )

Stephen

( sorry I would like to answer this a bit more in depth ,,but I have 2 much on me plate ...Conrod fatigue ( work) , and ( I promised to post about high siding ,,,Kb )

Pictures from left to right

1 ,,the 1st Indian Enfield
2. Herr Otto first attemp at a Roadworthy Machine
3 The First Luxury MC .later called the goldwing
4. The british Answer to the Honda Super cub ,,,As tested by Sir Archibald Buggaham

[Paul in NZ]

No I didn't - we've had part of this argument before. (the part I take exception too)

I spent a few days swapping rides on these two bikes.
Jump off one - hop on other.
I *know* Bloor's men have made a fucking good fist of re-creating the Bonneville and his stick it up your arse attitude is just some nit-picking old school mentality.


edited for context.

Of goodness..... One thing to argue a point but you are gettin' a bit het up here big guy! I'm happy to agree to disagree...

Just because I don't happen to personally agree with you OR Triumph on this bike does not make me wrong, it's just my opinion, and thats all it is. It's not bollocks, it's what just an opinion. It's not like I picket triumph dealers or throw rocks at the bloody things and I'm certainly not asking anyone to stick it up anyones arse.

My point is, the original bonnie was an edgy sportsbike. It's significance (to me anyway) was that it clearly maked a time when the motorcycle went from being a fairly utilitarian device designed to proved 'ride to work' 'take the family on holiday' capability as well as remove the lights and lets go racing capability, to something else. With the extra glitz, un ashamed performance, bad ass looks and reputation it was soley a (flawed) device for going very fast very quickly. A boys toy, a recreational 'life style' thing if you will.... It was beautifully executed and it was unmistakeable in profile. It had the Turner (or more likely the Wickes) look in every line.

As the bonnie aged, it's magic declined and the T140, while a very worthy bike and better in every way than a 1959 T120R and possibly the BEST bike they ever made in the classic period, is not the firecracker the name deserved.

The modern Bonnie does not have the individual stamp - it looks like a committee bike. A 916 has 'the look', the original Fireblade had it too, even a Moto Guzzi 750 Sport had that total design that one man brings to it.

I'm not being mean, I quite like the Thruxton.. Much nice looking bike but the whole range lacks the purpose and lightness of touch.... That essential badness... Lets face it, even a T140 owner had to be a bit mad or bad...

The new bonnie? Bad? Hmm.. No, not really....

The Kwaka is in the same tepid bath but in my opinion, they got the scale better.

[Bonez]

There's a Yahoo! based W650 enthusiasts' group here- http://www.kawasakiw650.co.uk/

[Big Dave]

Of goodness..... One thing to argue a point but you are gettin' a bit het up here big guy! I'm happy to agree to disagree...




Nah - you'll know if I get angry and it's highly unlikely in this medium - flame warrior-ring only.

[Paul in NZ]

Nah - you'll know if I get angry and it's highly unlikely in this medium - flame warrior-ring only.

Oh OK - Consider myself flame intimidated (assuming thats the appropriate thing?)

[2_SL0]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is this thing, it looks wicked.

http://www.vd-classic.com/img/realisation/photovd022.jpg

[Big Dave]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is this thing, it looks wicked.

http://www.vd-classic.com/img/realisation/photovd022.jpg

It does dunnit. XT500 on the tank - looks like that donk too.

[Big Dave]

Oh OK - Consider myself flame intimidated (assuming thats the appropriate thing?)

Argued with and moved on till the next round.

[2_SL0]

It does dunnit. XT500 on the tank - looks like that donk too.


Yeah I saw that, but it didnt make sense to me when I googled XT 500.
Is it a hybrid with a XT 500 engine?

[GB500nz]

Copies? LOL! When I was rebuilding a Simpson 250 (copy of pre-war BMW 250) I needed a piston and rings. Turns out all the Euro and Brit 250 & 500 bikes were copies of each other. I used a BSA 500 piston in it. No probs. The Tribsa triple was, of course, a tribsa 500 plus an extra pot. The Japanese succeeded not because they copied but because they innovated in an industry that had been stagnating for decades. They always had been innovative. Look at their Long Lance torpedo, the best in the world in 1940 and copied by the winners after the war.

[Badcat]

Yeah I saw that, but it didnt make sense to me when I googled XT 500.
Is it a hybrid with a XT 500 engine?

yep - the XT, TT and SR500 of the late '70s - early "80s shared a very similar motor.
that bike looks like a SOS (sound of singles class) racebike.
vdclassic (sad name) is a great site.
some of the images in my XT500 street tracker thread are from this crazy frenchman.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=11291
my project is using a much modded 600 cc version of this motor.

K

[mstriumph]

I.................. But to me the Triumph was light and nippy,it felt like fun to ride,not stodgy like ''the others''.I think this is what endears the Triumph to the romantics...so what if a Norton could ride around the outside of you....it felt faster....and that's all that matters with the rose tinted specs of nostalga.... you are making me weep .....

[Paul in NZ]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is this thing, it looks wicked.

http://www.vd-classic.com/img/realisation/photovd022.jpg

A while back there was a really good single pot 4 stroke racing class in europe. (600cc??) Bimota and Ducati both produced a couple of amazing bikes that were achingly pretty to boot.

Not sure it ever went anyplace which is a bit of a shame. I'd guess that this is something to do with that as a lot of privateers (apparently) used XT600 engines...

[Badcat]

A while back there was a really good single pot 4 stroke racing class in europe. (600cc??) Bimota and Ducati both produced a couple of amazing bikes that were achingly pretty to boot.

Not sure it ever went anyplace which is a bit of a shame. I'd guess that this is something to do with that as a lot of privateers (apparently) used XT600 engines...


yep SOS (Sound of Singles). i was hoping the new popularity of supermoto may renew interest in this...

k

[Pixie]

As I've said before - I'm cool with anybody riding - But fuck I don't like W650's.
The embodyment of the Japanese rip off. A copy for it's own sake. A GN250 has more street cred - at least it's not trying to be something it isn't.
Yeah, and good original bike like BMW's flat twin are copies of Douglas',made under licence by BMW after the war (WW1)
So what's new?
Bloor Triumphs are copies of Jap Multis are copies of italian multi racing bikes.
Rocket III's are copies of Hendersons,Indians and Sunbeams,are copies of FN's :hitcher:

[Bonez]

Bling bling- http://www.caferace.com/cafepix.html