David Shearer quits

[Banditbandit]

Oh come on, the left have been trying to imbed that meme for how many years without success?

The current PM is defined by his ability to come across as an ordinary Kiwi bloke, willingness to answer any question no matter how daft, being "relaxed" about stuff that doesn't go his way and a fear of taking any decision that might risk his popularity.

Oh .. so that's why he traded a convention centre for more pokie machines ... wat cost principles ?

All you talk about goes to his electability - not his competency or his politics .. he's a nice bloke ??? Fuck me - is that all it takes to be PM ???

[Oscar]

Oh .. so that's why he traded a convention centre for more pokie machines ... wat cost principles ?



There have been a lot of lies, half truths and hysteria talked about that deal.
When all is said and done, how many more machines will be in Auckland, and who will be using them?

Notwithstanding that, it is a legal activity and if you're advocating banning legal pass times down that track lies the spectre of no gambling, no drinks, no smokes and no dangerous forms of transport....

[Banditbandit]

There have been a lot of lies, half truths and hysteria talked about that deal.
When all is said and done, how many more machines will be in Auckland, and who will be using them?

Notwithstanding that, it is a legal activity and if you're advocating banning legal pass times down that track lies the spectre of no gambling, no drinks, no smokes and no dangerous forms of transport....


I have no issues with gambling per sae ... I am not advocating banning gambling ... ( I must admit that I have been in SkyCity once - and to me it looked like Babylon ... and I left without spending any money ) .. to me this isue is not abotu the ethics or otherwise of gambling ...

My issue is that DonKey swapped gambling machines for a convention centre - without consulting the community ... involving a law change by Parliament to make it happen (you do realise that the numer of gambling machines SyCity is allowed is covered in an Act of Parliament) - he sold the laws of our country without proper consultation ... is this a democracy or do you think that it is a good idea that the Prime Minister, on his own authority, can arbitrarily change the laws of this country ??? and worse - can sell the laws for a price ???

[MisterD]

All you talk about goes to his electability - not his competency or his politics .. he's a nice bloke ??? Fuck me - is that all it takes to be PM ???

It's obviously not all it takes to be PM, but you used the word "defined", so I listed what I think defines him as a politician.

His business style is most obvious to me in the way he is prepared to have talented people around him and delegate to them, by contrast the Labour party seem to be suffering from Clarke's determination to surround herself with mediocrity to make her look good in comparison...

[Oscar]

I have no issues with gambling per sae ... I am not advocating banning gambling ... ( I must admit that I have been in SkyCity once - and to me it looked like Babylon ... and I left without spending any money ) .. to me this isue is not abotu the ethics or otherwise of gambling ...

My issue is that DonKey swapped gambling machines for a convention centre - without consulting the community ... involving a law change by Parliament to make it happen (you do realise that the numer of gambling machines SyCity is allowed is covered in an Act of Parliament) - he sold the laws of our country without proper consultation ... is this a democracy or do you think that it is a good idea that the Prime Minister, on his own authority, can arbitrarily change the laws of this country ??? and worse - can sell the laws for a price ???

The PM did not change the law by his own authority.
It was an act of parliament.
An act that was foreshadowed through at least one election.

Did you have an issue with laws being enacted or changed so as to get the Rugby World Cup?
Governments of all flavours do that all the time.

Did you know there is a sinking lid on the number of Pokie machines in Auckland?
The new ones in the Casino (which has a problem gambler progamme) will replace many from South Auckland (which does not).

[MisterD]

My issue is that ...

I just don't get that argument at all. Every government makes changes to legislation that wasn't explictly stated in their manifesto.

Everyone in Auckland seemed to be in agreement that a conference centre was needed, the economic climate was such that tax, and rate, payers couldn't afford to pay for one and the PM saw a deal that looked like a winner and did it.

Free conference centre, economic stimulus for Auckland, sure a few more pokie machines but those pokie machines are going into the most supervised gambling venue in the country in the central city not in a local pub to tempt someone on their way to the supermarket...total pokie numbers are still falling.

[Banditbandit]

The PM did not change the law by his own authority.
It was an act of parliament.
An act that was foreshadowed through at least one election.

Dumb fucking voters ...


Did you have an issue with laws being enacted or changed so as to get the Rugby World Cup?

Yeah I do ...


Governments of all flavours do that all the time.

Do it al the trme has never been a good excuse in my book ..


Did you know there is a sinking lid on the number of Pokie machines in Auckland?
The new ones in the Casino (which has a problem gambler progamme) will replace many from South Auckland (which does not).

And ? That makes it right ???

[SPman]

There have been a lot of lies, half truths and hysteria talked about that deal.
When all is said and done, how many more machines will be in Auckland, and who will be using them?

Notwithstanding that, it is a legal activity and if you're advocating banning legal pass times down that track lies the spectre of no gambling, no drinks, no smokes and no dangerous forms of transport....
Changing the laws of the land with no consultation, to advantage a large corporate with obligations on the taxpayers for 30 yrs after the event and brokering a deal for the TVNZ land across the road on favourable terms, are the actions of an honourable, honest, competent, caring Prime Minister, are they?
Legal pastimes are one thing, involvement in underhand duplicitous, dodgy behaviour, using your privileged position as leader of the government, to further benefit a monoplistic provider of same is something else! Most people don't give a fuck about the monied high rollers who go there to wank off their bankrolls, or the normal people who go for a quiet flutter every now and then, but, having seen the effects of gambling addictions on people and families, if the whole sordid, smelly business is an indication of the sort of people running this country, it's no wonder it's fucked!

[Oscar]

Dumb fucking voters ...



Yeah I do ...



Do it al the trme has never been a good excuse in my book ..



And ? That makes it right ???

You don't have a problem with the Govt., you have a problem with the voters.
Doing what all the time? Running the country? Do you think the Govt. should seek electoral approval for everything?
That's why we elect them in the first place.

[Oscar]

Changing the laws of the land with no consultation, to advantage a large corporate with obligations on the taxpayers for 30 yrs after the event and brokering a deal for the TVNZ land across the road on favourable terms, are the actions of an honourable, honest, competent, caring Prime Minister, are they?
Legal pastimes are one thing, involvement in underhand duplicitous, dodgy behaviour, using your privileged position as leader of the government, to further benefit a monoplistic provider of same is something else! Most people don't give a fuck about the monied high rollers who go there to wank off their bankrolls, or the normal people who go for a quiet flutter every now and then, but, having seen the effects of gambling addictions on people and families, if the whole sordid, smelly business is an indication of the sort of people running this country, it's no wonder it's fucked!

Ref. my answer to Bandit.
Democracy is hard when you don't vote for the Govt.

[MisterD]

brokering a deal for the TVNZ land across the road on favourable terms,

Should have sold TVNZ while he was at it.

[SPman]

That's pretty funny.
Apart from Jones, which of the Labour MP's do you think represent the common NZer? - you're right - he is the biggest wanker of the lot - perhaps he does represent the "common NZer"
The gay ones? - I know a lot of gay NZ er's - and a lot of them are common....
The "never had a proper job in their life academics"? - definitions of "a proper job" vary widely - Cunliffe, at least, has worked in Commerce, I believe - or is it just more blathering generalisations that invariably get trotted out to disparage or criticise others when you you can't find anything concrete?
The quota MP's (on the list due to their race, sexual persuasion or other)? - some of them are extremely common!
The Former Unionists? - why not - there are still people out there with memories who support unions


The Labour Party is so far from average NZer's they are struggling to stay relevant. At the moment, you're probably right about that - I wouldn't (haven't) vote/d for them for a looooong while, because they have, over the last 30 years been 'National Lite", with very few policies to differentiate themselves - which is why the Greens have been making progress!

[Robert Taylor]

At the moment, you're probably right about that - I wouldn't (haven't) vote/d for them for a looooong while, because they have, over the last 30 years been 'National Lite", with very few policies to differentiate themselves - which is why the Greens have been making progress!

You mean Snifters?

[Banditbandit]

Did you have an issue with laws being enacted or changed so as to get the Rugby World Cup?
Governments of all flavours do that all the time.





Doing what all the time?

"Do it all the time" was your excuse for the DonKey's actions ... I was saying I have never accepted that excuse for any action ...

Are you suffering from memory lose? Go here ...

http://www.alzheimers.org.nz/

[oldrider]

So which incompetent won this charade FFS .... is it over yet? :zzzz:

[Banditbandit]

Not over yet, but we are beating Oracle 6 to -1 ...

Over in two more race days - we only need to get to nine points ...

[Oscar]

"Do it all the time" was your excuse for the DonKey's actions ... I was saying I have never accepted that excuse for any action ...

Are you suffering from memory lose? Go here ...

http://www.alzheimers.org.nz/

Your inability to be clear and concise is at least as bad as my alzheimers.






















































My alzheimers is just as bad as your vague posts.












































Who mentioned alzheimers?





























Anyway, what we're speaking of is the business of governing.
You can't go back to the electorate every five minutes on issues that (particularly ones that were flogged in the election process).

[Banditbandit]

You don't have a problem with the Govt., you have a problem with the voters.


Yeah, sometimes I do - a large part of me could be esasily persuaded to support the POV that the vote is wasted on ordinary people ...

Who's idea was it to let fuckwits vote ??? The problem, of course, is deciding who are the fuckwits who should be disqualified from voting - now I'd let you vote, but given the option I'm not sure that you would let me vote ..

[MisterD]

The problem, of course, is deciding who are the fuckwits who should be disqualified from voting - now I'd let you vote, but given the option I'm not sure that you would let me vote ..

I always come back to a voting licence. A basic scratch-and-win test on how our system of government works...followed by a practical test (vote Green and you fail :bleh:)

[Banditbandit]

Anyway, what we're speaking of is the business of governing.
You can't go back to the electorate every five minutes on issues that (particularly ones that were flogged in the election process).

Yeah .. you can ... Bill Clinton and other 'merikan presidents were criticised for using focus groups ansd other opinion polling to see what policies would be accepted by the electorate ...

Myself, I think that is a very good way for a democracy to run - have a regular look at what opinion polls tell you - and good focus group stuff too ..

"s only purists like yourself who probably don't like that idea because it is not really "asking the electorate" and democracy only works through the ballot box ..

Government "Of the people, by the people, for the people" need not rely only on three or five yearly nationwide votes ... and it should not - otherwise it becomes an elected dictatorship

[Oscar]

Yeah, sometimes I do - a large part of me could be esasily persuaded to support the POV that the vote is wasted on ordinary people ...

Who's idea was it to let fuckwits vote ??? The problem, of course, is deciding who are the fuckwits who should be disqualified from voting - now I'd let you vote, but given the option I'm not sure that you would let me vote ..


An intelligence test before you vote?
A better idea would be an intelligence test before you breed.
Then there would be fewer fuckwits in the first place.

BTW – I’d let you vote. The only reason the Tories aren’t completely out of control is that the balance of power is so fine. I’d take a marginal Labour government over a dominant National one any day.

[Banditbandit]

I always come back to a voting licence. A basic scratch-and-win test on how our system of government works...followed by a practical test (vote Green and you fail :bleh:)

I like Heinlein's idea of only letting people who are prepared to serve in the military and die for their country have the vote - after all they have proven they are capable of self-sacrifice for the good of the whole country - who better to let decide how it is run ... they will act for the good of the whole country .. (It's in Starship Troops)

[Oscar]

Yeah .. you can ... Bill Clinton and other 'merikan presidents were criticised for using focus groups ansd other opinion polling to see what policies would be accepted by the electorate ...

Myself, I think that is a very good way for a democracy to run - have a regular look at what opinion polls tell you - and good focus group stuff too ..

"s only purists like yourself who probably don't like that idea because it is not really "asking the electorate" and democracy only works through the ballot box ..

Government "Of the people, by the people, for the people" need not rely only on three or five yearly nationwide votes ... and it should not - otherwise it becomes an elected dictatorship

$9m for a referendum that the Govt. is going to ignore?
On a topic that was an election issue anyway?

This is where your focus groups fall down. National knows that a majority oppose asset sales, but not enough to change their vote.
Maybe it shows that their voters trust them to do the unpalatable things.
Imagine a Govt by referendum through the GFC?
World War 2?

[Oscar]

I like Heinlein's idea of only letting people who are prepared to serve in the military and die for their country have the vote - after all they have proven they are capable of self-sacrifice for the good of the whole country - who better to let decide how it is run ... they will act for the good of the whole country .. (It's in Starship Troops)

That was probably based on the Roman State exchanging limited citizenship for military service.

[Banditbandit]

BTW – I’d let you vote. The only reason the Tories aren’t completely out of control is that the balance of power is so fine. I’d take a marginal Labour government over a dominant National one any day.

I'd probably agree with you ... and VV ... in reality how people vote is as much an emotional decision, and sometimes and ideological decision as it is a rational decision ...

I keep saying to my colleagues ...

I got my career start under a National Government scheme ..
I bought my first house supported by a National Government scheme ...

Labour talks big on Maori and Treaty issues - and does noting ..

A National Government under Bolger/Graham poured millions and millions of dollars into Treaty settlements ... More money in one year than the total of Labour's settlements ..
Labour talked about Maori radio .. and did bugger all ...
Two years after a National Government therwere 26 Maori radio stations across the country ...

How come we don't vote National and how come the anti-treaty settlement brigade does ???

[Oscar]

I'd probably agree with you ... and VV ... in reality how people vote is as much an emotional decision, and sometimes and ideological decision as it is a rational decision ...

I keep saying to my colleagues ...

I got my career start under a National Government scheme ..
I bought my first house supported by a National Government scheme ...

Labour talks big on Maori and Treaty issues - and does noting ..

A National Government under Bolger/Graham poured millions and millions of dollars into Treaty settlements ... More money in one year than the total of Labour's settlements ..
Labour talked about Maori radio .. and did bugger all ...
Two years after a National Government therwere 26 Maori radio stations across the country ...

How come we don't vote National and how come the anti-treaty settlement brigade does ???

I’d attribute some of that to Key’s leadership style.
That he managed to form a working coalition with the Maori Party is worthy of respect.
The rabid anti-treaty mob you refer to lives with Winston, I think.

[mashman]

I like Heinlein's idea of only letting people who are prepared to serve in the military and die for their country have the vote - after all they have proven they are capable of self-sacrifice for the good of the whole country - who better to let decide how it is run ... they will act for the good of the whole country .. (It's in Starship Troops)

:rofl:... you do realise that soldiers follow orders.

[MisterD]

How come we don't vote National and how come the anti-treaty settlement brigade does ???

That's got to be one of the great imponderables*. You've got to say that the likes of Jones and Tamihere are probably in the wrong party but are Labour because they're Maori.

National seem to have a freedom to do stuff that an element of their core vote dislike, but not enough to change vote over, and a chunck of floating but Nat-leaning vote are comfortable with being done in a "pragmatic National-y" way, but are easily scaremongered away from a "radical / pandering Labour-y vote-buying" way by National.

In some ways I wonder if the historic closeness of the Maori vote to Labour is actually counter-productive. National are seen to do something because it's right but Labour doing the same is easily portrayed as favouritism.


*he says, and then proceeds to ponder on it...

[MisterD]

:rofl:... you do realise that soldiers follow orders.

"I need three volunteers. You, you and you..."

[mashman]

"I need three volunteers. You, you and you..."

heh... 1 Gay, 1 Maori, 1 New Zealander eh.

[MisterD]

heh... 1 Gay, 1 Maori, 1 New Zealander eh.

A gay, a Maori and a New Zealander walk into a pub, and the barman says "is this some kind of a joke?"

[Banditbandit]

:rofl:... you do realise that soldiers follow orders.

Yeah ... Heinlein's are all volunteers ... not conscripts ... the idea has merits .. and as Oscar points out - it's similar to a Greek idea ... citizens get to vote ... the argument becomes how to define a "citizen" ...

[Banditbandit]

I’d attribute some of that to Key’s leadership style.

Everything I quoted was before his time ...




That's got to be one of the great imponderables*. You've got to say that the likes of Jones and Tamihere are probably in the wrong party but are Labour because they're Maori.

National seem to have a freedom to do stuff that an element of their core vote dislike, but not enough to change vote over, and a chunck of floating but Nat-leaning vote are comfortable with being done in a "pragmatic National-y" way, but are easily scaremongered away from a "radical / pandering Labour-y vote-buying" way by National.

In some ways I wonder if the historic closeness of the Maori vote to Labour is actually counter-productive. National are seen to do something because it's right but Labour doing the same is easily portrayed as favouritism.


*he says, and then proceeds to ponder on it...

I think it is about doing the right thing ... which is what prompted Graham/Bolger - and sometimes prompts John Key (who can open his mouth and sasy "we're goign to do this because it's the right thing to do" and I freak because I agree with him, I'm just surprised at his motivations ) ... Labour know the right thing to do too .. pity they do fuck all ..

Traditionally (and it has all changed) Labour was the party of the workers and working class - and that was were almost all Māori were ...

Labour and the left are still largely seen as favourable to Maori because they have, supposedly, better social policies ... while National focuses only on economics, and when they do things like cut benefits, that impacts on Maori .. National alsocome across as not caring about the environment, which for us is Papatuaknuku and the land, water, air etc ... important issues for many Maori .. National want to change the RMA etc etc .. Brownlie would mine Papatuanuku, drill in the oceans ... take our non-commercial snapper quota and give it to commercial interests ...

Like I said, Labour make all the right noises and National make al the wrong noises .. but the Labour does NOTHING and National spends millions ... Actions always speak louder than words, they say - but if this is anythig to go by, except in politics ...

It's politics .. It's a world-wide participatory sport - go figure ..

[mashman]

A gay, a Maori and a New Zealander walk into a pub, and the barman says "is this some kind of a joke?"

"Nope, one of us is NZ's future."


Yeah ... Heinlein's are all volunteers ... not conscripts ... the idea has merits .. and as Oscar points out - it's similar to a Greek idea ... citizens get to vote ... the argument becomes how to define a "citizen" ...

Don't they all volunteer? Honestly, I have to say it's a stupid idea. It's up there with allowing corporates the vote (even though they already do) on the basis that they're the wealth creators of the world's economy.

If you contribute then surely you're a citizen? Being told that you can't vote isn't freedom. Even the contribution of the unemployed is an economic necessity. There ya go, no argument :innocent:, all is well with the world, just the small matter of freedom that needs sorting out :D

[Banditbandit]

"Nope, one of us is NZ's future."



Don't they all volunteer? Honestly, I have to say it's a stupid idea. It's up there with allowing corporates the vote (even though they already do) on the basis that they're the wealth creators of the world's economy.

If you contribute then surely you're a citizen? Being told that you can't vote isn't freedom. Even the contribution of the unemployed is an economic necessity. There ya go, no argument :innocent:, all is well with the world, just the small matter of freedom that needs sorting out :D

Yeah, naaa .. maybe ...

The unemployed are not free .. they have no economic freedom at all and are tied to the state is the worst way possible ...

"Corporates" is a legal fiction .. migh as well let Rugby teams vote - they contribute don't they ?? And represent us? Fuck me - most nowadays would never pas an intelligence test ...

But seriously - citizenship gives people rights AND responsibilities .. in balance ... so I like the idea of "contributing" (was the Greek idea - but women and free men don';t contribute) ... the problem again is the definition ..

Universal sufferage is really the only fair answer ... but just sometimes I think .. WTF ???

[Ocean1]

If you contribute then surely you're a citizen? Being told that you can't vote isn't freedom. Even the contribution of the unemployed is an economic necessity. There ya go, no argument :innocent:, all is well with the world, just the small matter of freedom that needs sorting out :D

See, a lot of people don't necessarily see unproductive behaviour costing the rest of society as a contribution.

I reckon votes should be allocated according to how much tax you paid last year, but I’d settle for a vote for anyone who generated actual positive revenue.

And freedom is available to almost everyone. The freedom to behave in ways that shape their lives the way they want.

[mashman]

Yeah, naaa .. maybe ...

The unemployed are not free .. they have no economic freedom at all and are tied to the state is the worst way possible ...

"Corporates" is a legal fiction .. migh as well let Rugby teams vote - they contribute don't they ?? And represent us? Fuck me - most nowadays would never pas an intelligence test ...

But seriously - citizenship gives people rights AND responsibilities .. in balance ... so I like the idea of "contributing" (was the Greek idea - but women and free men don';t contribute) ... the problem again is the definition ..

Universal sufferage is really the only fair answer ... but just sometimes I think .. WTF ???

I r a citizen of the world... tis others and their definitions that keep telling me I'm not. You know where this goes, you want freedom, then ze rulez, regs and associated political bullshit has to go, common sense and personal responsibility have to return.

One for All or fuck the fuck off my planet sums it up better.

[mashman]

See, a lot of people don't necessarily see unproductive behaviour costing the rest of society as a contribution.

I reckon votes should be allocated according to how much tax you paid last year, but I’d settle for a vote for anyone who generated actual positive revenue.

And freedom is available to almost everyone. The freedom to behave in ways that shape their lives the way they want.

heh, they would when their money is worth less because of some fucked up macroeconomic notion of the free market that requires unemployment to be in place in order to mitigate wild inflationary fluctuations.

:rofl:

No it isn't. If I can't pluck an apple of my neighbours tree without them being able to have me charged, then there's no freedom.

[oldrider]

This Labour leadership wank is really just that .... no matter how they dress it up .... it's still just a wank .... sex with one's self! :tugger: simply make do at best! :(

[Ocean1]

heh, they would when their money is worth less because of some fucked up macroeconomic notion of the free market that requires unemployment to be in place in order to mitigate wild inflationary fluctuations.

:rofl:

No it isn't. If I can't pluck an apple of my neighbours tree without them being able to have me charged, then there's no freedom.

It's only you that trundles out that "unemployment necessary" bullshit, dude. It just ain't so.

And I'd say there aren't too many that want thieves much freedom at all, let alone any control over policy.

[mashman]

It's only you that trundles out that "unemployment necessary" bullshit, dude. It just ain't so.

And I'd say there aren't too many that want thieves much freedom at all, let alone any control over policy.

Aha, even though the RBNZ have stated that it is a measurement for controlling inflation... yup, seems it's only me that knows that secret. I'd post up the proof, again, but the document has been "removed".

:rofl: erm, erm, erm... quaint that you believe that you are the owner of your property. You ain't. You lease it. The owners can take it off you anytime they like. Yup, the same folk that control policy too.

[Ocean1]

Aha, even though the RBNZ have stated that it is a measurement for controlling inflation... yup, seems it's only me that knows that secret. I'd post up the proof, again, but the document has been "removed".

:rofl: erm, erm, erm... quaint that you believe that you are the owner of your property. You ain't. You lease it. The owners can take it off you anytime they like. Yup, the same folk that control policy too.

Right. The bogeyman.


Again.


Old.

[mashman]

Right. The bogeyman.


Again.


Old.

Not the bogeyman, the RBNZ. You don't know these things? And I bet you consider yourself to be a conscientious voter too.

[awa355]

This Labour leadership wank is really just that .... no matter how they dress it up .... it's still just a wank .... sex with one's self! :tugger: simply make do at best! :(

Larry, Joe and Moe. :facepalm: ' NZ's Got Talent ' / ' the X Factor ', FFS! Key must be laughing.

[Brian d marge]

I wonder which bogeyman controls the lending rate

Stephen

[Ocean1]

I wonder which bogeyman controls the lending rate

Stephen

I do.

If it's not right I don't borrow.

[mashman]

I wonder which bogeyman controls the lending rate

Stephen

No such thing... they just act on what the computers tell them is happening in the world, or at least will happen according to the latest and greatest model. What an awesome way to absolve oneself from any responsibility for ones actions.

[Swoop]

How nice... Cunliffe as leader.

Back to the backstabbing, sniping and general idiotic lunacy that the liarbour party do so well.
This week should be "entertaining".

[oldrider]

All that taxpayers money down the gurglar and still a "nil result" ... what a waste of time and money FFS! :whocares:

[carbonhed]

Looks like "silent T" has been padding his CV. Ah the Labour Party :rolleyes:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9192790/Cunliffe-to-refresh-online-CV