Red light mounting

[jellywrestler]

There were a lot of taillights lying around the track at HD at the weekend, please people have a bit more of a think when mounting them to ensure that they don't go west form things like double sided tape, velcro etc.

[Deano]

There were a lot of taillights lying around the track at HD at the weekend, please people have a bit more of a think when mounting them to ensure that they don't go west form things like double sided tape, velcro etc.

Mine hung on during qualifying (bracket mounted and secured with a cable tie).

The problem was it was given to me and obviously a shit brand that was not water proof. So even before I got to pit lane it had let water in and wasn't working properly (very dim).

Lucky I was late and didn't comprehend what the marshal was yelling at me as I went past.....I thought he said 'yeah go', but it must have been 'wait no'.

[Billy]

There were a lot of taillights lying around the track at HD at the weekend, please people have a bit more of a think when mounting them to ensure that they don't go west form things like double sided tape, velcro etc.


Mine hung on during qualifying (bracket mounted and secured with a cable tie).

The problem was it was given to me and obviously a shit brand that was not water proof. So even before I got to pit lane it had let water in and wasn't working properly (very dim).

Lucky I was late and didn't comprehend what the marshal was yelling at me as I went past.....I thought he said 'yeah go', but it must have been 'wait no'.

There will be a clarification posted on the MNZ and Cemetery circuit websites tomorrow morning as well as a mail out to all licence holders,Explaining exactly what is expected of the competitors and the consequences.

But seriously "It was given too me" is NOT an excuse,It is the competitors own responsibility to ensure that they have procured a light that is suitable to last the distance and is fitted securely,Personally I have fitted mine permanently,But thats more because I weigh the same as a small sparrow and weight is no issue for me,Also there will be a safety rulechange applied for to state they must be fitted in a position on either the left or right of the machine as I have been advised that in heavy rain,The lights fitted to the centre are hidden in the spray from the rear wheel,In the event you do not comply I would assume the steward would show you the black flag.

[Mental Trousers]

Also there will be a safety rulechange applied for to state they must be fitted in a position on either the left or right of the machine as I have been advised that in heavy rain,The lights fitted to the centre are hidden in the spray from the rear wheel

So bolting it to the unused pillion footpeg hanger would be ok then?

[Deano]

There will be a clarification posted on the MNZ and Cemetery circuit websites tomorrow morning as well as a mail out to all licence holders,Explaining exactly what is expected of the competitors and the consequences.

But seriously "It was given too me" is NOT an excuse,It is the competitors own responsibility to ensure that they have procured a light that is suitable to last the distance and is fitted securely,Personally I have fitted mine permanently,But thats more because I weigh the same as a small sparrow and weight is no issue for me,Also there will be a safety rulechange applied for to state they must be fitted in a position on either the left or right of the machine as I have been advised that in heavy rain,The lights fitted to the centre are hidden in the spray from the rear wheel,In the event you do not comply I would assume the steward would show you the black flag.

Hey Billy you know I have a lot of respect for you mate, but when you say the rule is to be clarified, then it seems to me it wasn't well drafted in the first place.

On Saturday there were flashing lights, non flashing ones - from memory the rule does not explain which is ok - correct me if I'm wrong.

I wasn't attempting to make an excuse - when I turned the light on at the start of pit lane it worked fine - but 20m later it was much dimmer. It appeared to me to be a pretty standard red light that you could buy from any bicycle shop, which I'm sure you advocated in earlier comments. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

Some central mounted ones I saw were still clearly visible despite the spray. How far to the side of the machine will they need to be then ?

Mounting them permanently may pose problems in that you need to take them apart to change the batteries.

I don't want to argue about it - you get enough of that already, but if the rule clarification could cover all of the above points that would be awesome - any chance we will be advised before Sunday and Round 2 of the Suzuki Series ?

Thanks for the heads up - I have bought a new one already (a Catseye reputable brand that the seller assured me is waterproof and will not come off its mount - not that mine did come off).

[jasonu]

,Also there will be a safety rulechange applied for to state they must be fitted in a position on either the left or right of the machine

Shouldn't they be fitted to the same side of all machines?

[Billy]

Hey Billy you know I have a lot of respect for you mate, but when you say the rule is to be clarified, then it seems to me it wasn't well drafted in the first place.

On Saturday there were flashing lights, non flashing ones - from memory the rule does not explain which is ok - correct me if I'm wrong.

I wasn't attempting to make an excuse - when I turned the light on at the start of pit lane it worked fine - but 20m later it was much dimmer. It appeared to me to be a pretty standard red light that you could buy from any bicycle shop, which I'm sure you advocated in earlier comments. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

Some central mounted ones I saw were still clearly visible despite the spray. How far to the side of the machine will they need to be then ?

Mounting them permanently may pose problems in that you need to take them apart to change the batteries.

I don't want to argue about it - you get enough of that already, but if the rule clarification could cover all of the above points that would be awesome - any chance we will be advised before Sunday and Round 2 of the Suzuki Series ?

Thanks for the heads up though - I have bought a new one already (a Catseye reputable brand that the seller assured me is waterproof and will not come off its mount - not that mine did come off).

Nope,

The clarification is for those who didn't understand what was expected of them and the consequences of not bothering to make a reasonable effort to comply.Yes it will be taken care of before sunday and I have spoken with Flea this afternoon and it will be brought up at riders briefing(Obviously I cannot guarantee that will happen as I am not officiating).

In regard to my statement re the use of a cycle light,Yes that is correct,I did say that and that's exactly what I use on mine,I stupidly thought that all would do what I did,Which was to ask when purchasing it that it would do the job,Pretty simple task and only cost $15 retail.I'm sure you are correct re some of the lights being visible through the spray,But I have received info from experienced stewards that not all do,I would imagine just to the left or right of centre would suffice,But some I have seen are mounted on the rear of the footpeg hanger or muffler mount,Flashing or no static will suffice,I received arguments for and against both and decided to leave it up to the individuals.

[Billy]

So bolting it to the unused pillion footpeg hanger would be ok then?

Yip,Sure would

[nzspokes]

http://www.bikebarn.co.nz/accessories-components/accessories/lights.html?p=2

Lots of options for mounting there.

[Deano]

Nope,

The clarification is for those who didn't understand what was expected of them and the consequences of not bothering to make a reasonable effort to comply.Yes it will be taken care of before sunday and I have spoken with Flea this afternoon and it will be brought up at riders briefing(Obviously I cannot guarantee that will happen as I am not officiating).

In regard to my statement re the use of a cycle light,Yes that is correct,I did say that and that's exactly what I use on mine,I stupidly thought that all would do what I did,Which was to ask when purchasing it that it would do the job,Pretty simple task and only cost $15 retail.I'm sure you are correct re some of the lights being visible through the spray,But I have received info from experienced stewards that not all do,I would imagine just to the left or right of centre would suffice,But some I have seen are mounted on the rear of the footpeg hanger or muffler mount,Flashing or no static will suffice,I received arguments for and against both and decided to leave it up to the individuals.

Thanks Billy.

I have had a quick look at my bike and have several mounting options available to me so will get that sorted before Sunday.

[SWERVE]

Well I had gone to the trouble of grafting the original tail light lense back into the seat unit with a suitable LED ( of correct size) mounted behind the lense. Making it both waterproof and as it is hard wired..able to be switched on by the rider via handlebar control and automatically switching off when ign off.
Looks like my pretty tail light lense is now redundant. But looks good:niceone:
good job we have a spare clip on on :Police:
IMHO if the spray is that bad............. mounting position is irrelevent:shutup:

[Gremlin]

Also there will be a safety rulechange applied for to state they must be fitted in a position on either the left or right of the machine as I have been advised that in heavy rain,The lights fitted to the centre are hidden in the spray from the rear wheel.
Just an FYI

From a flag marshal's point of view, the performance of the lights at HD for Rd1 of the Suzuki Series varied heavily in performance. Some were large, very visible and even through the spray, including one of the front two sidecars. The light was big and bright, no problem. Obviously the rigs also kick up a much bigger cloud of spray. Mounting positions seemed to also vary a lot, affecting visibility from different angles, but presumably dead on from the rear is the most important, for other riders.

I know there are minimum and maximum sizes for the light, not sure if it's active leds (or equivalent) or the light body, but some seemed to be little more than a single line of 4-5 leds, and those didn't cut it for the spray. Also, not sure if side mounting would really make much of a difference, as the body of a bike is quite narrow, and the spray isn't a thin line most of the time (at least not in heavier conditions).

[HenryDorsetCase]

...I thought he said 'yeah go', but it must have been 'wait no'.

same thing innit?

[CHOPPA]

Well I was one of the riders that went to a lot of effort to wire it up and install it properly!!

Good thing its 1mm off center or id be pissed that I had a hole in my undertail

[Kickaha]

Some were large, very visible and even through the spray, including one of the front two sidecars. The light was big and bright, no problem.

Sounds oversize, might have to protest him

[jellywrestler]

Just an FYI

the performance of the lights at HD for Rd1 of the Suzuki Series varied heavily in performance. it was hard to get to sleep on saturday night with all the discarded ones around the track and in the grass like fucking xmas lights.....

[Mental Trousers]

So I could save $15 and just walk around the track after a meeting then??

[wayne]

1mm of centre is fine but to which side ??????

[wharfy]

I don't go fast enough to make spray....

[swarfie]

I don't go fast enough to make spray....

We did...sprayed fibre-glass all over turn one :weep:

[Billy]

1mm of centre is fine but to which side ??????

Not sure it would matter which side,As long as its visible from the rear.

Not sure that 1mm will be sufficient,Still there always gonna be some clever bastards... aren't there,Not sure what you'd be trying to achieve other than being disruptive for no real reason when some folks are just trying to make it safer for all,Some folks just can't help themselves

[peril 787b]

Sounds oversize, might have to protest him

You'd be talking about Lovells one. It's massively oversize...
Although since it's internationally recognized and approved you'd think it'd be okay.

Why is there a maximum size? Surely a minimum would be sufficient and if someone wanted to use a large light (and carry the extra weight) that choice ought to be up to them, providing it wasn't ridiculously oversize of course.

[CHOPPA]

Not sure it would matter which side,As long as its visible from the rear.

Not sure that 1mm will be sufficient,Still there always gonna be some clever bastards... aren't there,Not sure what you'd be trying to achieve other than being disruptive for no real reason when some folks are just trying to make it safer for all,Some folks just can't help themselves


Prob in reply to my comment but I think the rule is really good. The lights make a huge difference and the good LED ones are easily visable through the spray regardless where is mounted. Ill have to read the rules but are they allowed to be flashing?

[wharfy]

Prob in reply to my comment but I think the rule is really good. The lights make a huge difference and the good LED ones are easily visable through the spray regardless where is mounted. Ill have to read the rules but are they allowed to be flashing?

I have mine flashing, but then I'm only going slightly faster than a lighthouse....

[budda]

Still there always gonna be some clever bastards... aren't there,Not sure what you'd be trying to achieve other than being disruptive for no real reason when some folks are just trying to make it safer for all,Some folks just can't help themselves

Just make 'em all run 5 degree swingarm angle and a cast iron hugger with whiskers on the bottom like a Road Train to keep the spray down - give 'em something to grizzle about mate

[scott411]

Just make 'em all run 5 degree swingarm angle and a cast iron hugger with whiskers on the bottom like a Road Train to keep the spray down - give 'em something to grizzle about mate

i say the flaps like the speedway GP bikes run will be fine,

PS: you found out what my time was up the bluff hill was?

[Billy]

You'd be talking about Lovells one. It's massively oversize...
Although since it's internationally recognized and approved you'd think it'd be okay.

Why is there a maximum size? Surely a minimum would be sufficient and if someone wanted to use a large light (and carry the extra weight) that choice ought to be up to them, providing it wasn't ridiculously oversize of course.


Prob in reply to my comment but I think the rule is really good. The lights make a huge difference and the good LED ones are easily visable through the spray regardless where is mounted. Ill have to read the rules but are they allowed to be flashing?

The reason for the max size is the danger of large pieces of sharpened material on the track in the event of a crash,Thats why we insist the original lights are taped up or removed in the GCRs.

No Choppa it was in reply to John....err I mean Waynes post,Flashing or static it's your choice as I stated in the reply to Deano earlier

[Billy]

Just make 'em all run 5 degree swingarm angle and a cast iron hugger with whiskers on the bottom like a Road Train to keep the spray down - give 'em something to grizzle about mate

Your just being silly now,Now go for a jog up bluff hill and see if you can find the time Scott's looking for

[scrivy]

Maybe this thread should be recalled 'Red Light Munting'????:eek5:

[budda]

Your just being silly now,Now go for a jog up bluff hill and see if you can find the time Scott's looking for

Hasn't beaten mine from '88 yet, no point. He did pretty good for a Pig Island Bluff Hill virgin though .......

Although the road surface is now flat like a pool-table compared to what it used to be like, and all the trees that made it like riding inside a tunnel are gone, the fast boys ( and that's anybody low 50's and under ) have my respect .....
it aint that easy to go that fast up there, plenty have tried and failed

[nodrog]

The reason for the max size is the danger of large pieces of sharpened material on the track in the event of a crash,Thats why we insist the original lights are taped up or removed in the GCRs.

No Choppa it was in reply to John....err I mean Waynes post,Flashing or static it's your choice as I stated in the reply to Deano earlier

Choice, so we can protest Lovells points from the wet races then? That will teach him for having an FIM approved rain light. :facepalm:

[jellywrestler]

Choice, so we can protest Lovells points from the wet races then? That will teach him for having an FIM approved rain light. :facepalm:

within 30 minutes isn't it?

[Kickaha]

That will teach him for having an FIM approved rain light. :facepalm:
What the fuck would the FIM know about anything, bunch of amateurs

[nodrog]

within 30 minutes isn't it?

correct


What the fuck would the FIM know about anything, bunch of amateurs

I reckon even they would know that even a triple A battery is bigger than 45mm.

[Billy]

Choice, so we can protest Lovells points from the wet races then? That will teach him for having an FIM approved rain light. :facepalm:

Fill ya boots,

Always happy to see folks put their money where their mouth is....Doesn't happen often though.

Prolly pay you to read the manual first though,Wouldn't wanna see you make a fool of yourself.

[nodrog]

Fill ya boots,

Always happy to see folks put their money where their mouth is....Doesn't happen often though.

Prolly pay you to read the manual first though,Wouldn't wanna see you make a fool of yourself.

WTF is a Prolly?

[Drew]

Fill ya boots,

Always happy to see folks put their money where their mouth is....Doesn't happen often though.

Prolly pay you to read the manual first though,Wouldn't wanna see you make a fool of yourself.Happens so infrequently, that when a bulshit protest that didn't meet protest requirements meant Sam Love missed out at prize giving in fact, because it seems NO ONE knows how they work.

An area of our sport and events, that wouldn't stand up in court for twenty seconds. Might as well be scrapped I'm afraid.

[FROSTY]

Billy-given most of the bikes on track are production based rather than pure race bikes why not just allow origonal tailights to be refitted
wouldn't that solve a lot of issues real fast?

[Drew]

Billy-given most of the bikes on track are production based rather than pure race bikes why not just allow origonal tailights to be refitted
wouldn't that solve a lot of issues real fast?Guy on a WAAAAAAYYYYYYY too loud RSV-4 had just that, brake light and all. Dude brakes like a bitch into the sweaper.

[Billy]

Happens so infrequently, that when a bulshit protest that didn't meet protest requirements meant Sam Love missed out at prize giving in fact, because it seems NO ONE knows how they work.

An area of our sport and events, that wouldn't stand up in court for twenty seconds. Might as well be scrapped I'm afraid.

The system works very well when applied by those who have made themselves familiar with the rules and how they work,Its all in the manual,But of course you would know that as its part of the contract you enter into when applying for a licence.

[Billy]

Billy-given most of the bikes on track are production based rather than pure race bikes why not just allow origonal tailights to be refitted
wouldn't that solve a lot of issues real fast?

Read the whole thread,Ive answered that question twice already

[Billy]

WTF is a Prolly?

Its where you put your triple a batteries that you don't need for the LED light

[budda]

What the fuck would the FIM know about anything, bunch of amateurs

You mean the KIWI ex-racer ( and a bloody good one at that ) who makes THEIR rules is out of touch too ? AFFS

[roogazza]

Billy-given most of the bikes on track are production based rather than pure race bikes why not just allow origonal tailights to be refitted
wouldn't that solve a lot of issues real fast?

Makes perfect sense Frosty. Though I bet you wouldn't get away with anything so sensible with MNZ.
If any light is too large,which is highly improbable, a bit of duct tape can fix that pronto.
It's actually quite funny when you realise that Prod bikes years ago had to have the lens removed or a fuck load of tape cover the thing. Progress, I love it. :crazy:

ps can someone come on and tell us the ratio of prod based bikes to pukka race(eg TZs) bikes there are current in NZ ? Not that we're trying to make rules from here on KB , but it would seem a common sense idea. No ?

[FROSTY]

Read the whole thread,Ive answered that question twice already
Billy--Im sorry mate -You know I don't post stuff just to stir you up but--- do what??
Almost every bike out there is fitted with a fairing blade and most guys have the cheap alternative blades that break easilly.We don't have issues with them passing tech inspection.
If the guy has wrecked badly enough to shatter a tailight lens then theres going to be a lot more debris lying around than the remains of a busted 150mm round lens.
.If you are really worried then a wrap of clear duct tape around and over the lens will have the effect of tempered glass.
ALSO--mate Ill be honest with you at all the track days Ive been to and the few Ive personally organised I don't ever recall bits of busted tailight being an issue.
The only thing I would do is make it illegal for the brake lights to operate. How the rider acheives that is up to them. Snip the wire or unplug the switches on the lever and foot brake.
Again Im sorry mate but you remember your own words to me a few years back (I'll "polite" it up a bit) Keep it simple stupid.
It seems to be a really simple solution for most racers.
But then I AM stupid so maybee Im missing something.

[FROSTY]

On a side note. Again not atacking anyone here because the intent is fantastic.
Rather than reinventing the wheel regarding rear light brightness and visibility why not simply use the law already in place for road bikes.
A lamp that is required to be fitted must emit light that is visible within anangle of at least 15 degrees above and below a horizontal plane passing through the lamp, and within at least 45 degreeseither side of a vertical plane that is parallel to the longitudinal centre-line of the vehicle and passing through the lamp.

In plain english-it needs to be visible 45 degrees to either side of the centre line and 15 degrees up and down from horisontal

A clearly defined rule is gonna be a heck of a lot easier to comply with

[Bert]

On a side note. Again not atacking anyone here because the intent is fantastic.
Rather than reinventing the wheel regarding rear light brightness and visibility why not simply use the law already in place for road bikes.
A lamp that is required to be fitted must emit light that is visible within anangle of at least 15 degrees above and below a horizontal plane passing through the lamp, and within at least 45 degreeseither side of a vertical plane that is parallel to the longitudinal centre-line of the vehicle and passing through the lamp.

In plain english-it needs to be visible 45 degrees to either side of the centre line and 15 degrees up and down from horisontal
.
A clearly defined rule is gonna be a heck of a lot easier to comply with

It's probably worth a submission Frosty. You know how it all works.

And back to the previous comment about standard tail lights, generally they are now made of better stronger plastic (along with LEDs). Seems to be a no brainer really. given the pure number of half assed attempts using cheap push bike light (not made of quality plastic) it would seem common sence to stick to factory solutions.. I'm sure the entent of the rule was not to have rear facing red missiles...

Personally I don't like the use of RED Lights at all (perplexed when FIM required them in motogp and the like).
Last thing I'd want to see is a rider slowing down as it was mistaken as a red flag or in the case of track mounted red warning lights (which is a likely solution for the dropping volly numbers in the future).... High lux Blue/white LEDs (or micro xeon) seems to be a much more suitable colour solution.
Given most bikes now use LEDs its a simple conversion...

Not attacking Merely planting seeds....

[jellywrestler]

it would seem common sence to stick to factory solutions..

two issues here, one modern fairing panels omit the taillight mount so will present an issue and the other is if expensive tailllights that may not be on the bike when purchased or if you bin and break you're up for another.
custom tailpieces are another issue as is sidecars which are totally differnt
all it needs is some common sense really and not velcroing them on etc

[Bert]

two issues here, one modern fairing panels omit the taillight mount so will present an issue and the other is if expensive tailllights that may not be on the bike when purchased or if you bin and break you're up for another.
custom tailpieces are another issue as is sidecars which are totally differnt
all it needs is some common sense really and not velcroing them on etc

Yip fair call.
I guess the point is it you can do it with what's already there. if not, then do it to a high standard rather than an after thought (5 dollar solution)....
I've got no idea what we are going to do on our old post classic chair (for next time I dig it out)...
I'll go and hide back under my rock.

[FROSTY]

two issues here, one modern fairing panels omit the taillight mount so will present an issue and the other is if expensive tailllights that may not be on the bike when purchased or if you bin and break you're up for another.
custom tailpieces are another issue as is sidecars which are totally differnt
all it needs is some common sense really and not velcroing them on etc
Hear what you are saying but why eliminate the simplest solution as an option?
Im not saying it should be the ONLY option offered but why not let it be AN option.
Actually mon what I am saying is that the issues and potential issues with tailights have already been thought out over the last 100 years or so.
One issue already raised for racebikes is visibility to one side ot other of the bike -thats covered off already
the second that hasn't been mentioned is the light being too intense or focussed (ie LED's) and blinding riders behind--I bet this will be raised as an issue soon -again thats coovered of in existing road spec rules.
Again --NOT saying factory tailights it should be the only option-Im saying its an elegant and simple solution for a lot of guys.
Keeping in mind Im thinking about all the club level racers dooing winter series racing where this stuff will be the most noticed.

[Dave-]

Few weeks late for this thread, but here's how a real organisation makes a rule:

This is the official MotoGP regulation for wet races and the red light


1.20 "Wet" and "Dry" Races
All races will be categorised as either wet or dry. A board may be
displayed on the grid to indicate the status of the race. If no board is
displayed, the race is automatically dry. The purpose of this
classification is to indicate to riders the consequence of varying
climatic conditions during a race.

When a race is declared wet, either on the starting grid or by
display of the white flag after the start, every motorcycle must
have its Safety Light switched on (refer to Article 2.7.17).
The Race Director may also instruct riders to switch on safety
lights by means of a board displayed at the finish line (100cm
horizontal x 80cm vertical, black background with the word
“Light” in yellow). Safety lights must stay on until riders are
instructed to switch them off, such instruction will be
communicated by the same board displayed with the word
“Light” crossed out.

2.7.17 Safety Lights
All motorcycles must have a functioning red light mounted at the
rear of the machine to be used in rain or low visibility conditions,
as declared by Race Direction. Lights must comply with the
following:

a) lighting direction must be parallel to the machine centre
line (motorcycle running direction), and clearly visible from
the rear at least 15 degrees to both left and right sides of
the machine centre line.
b) mounted on the seat/rear bodywork behind the rear axle
line and approximately on the machine centre line. In case
of dispute over the mounting position or visibility, the
decision of the Technical Director will be final.
c) power output/luminosity equivalent to approximately:
10 – 15W (incandescent)
3 - 5W (LED)
d) able to be switched on and off by the rider when seated on
the machine.
e) safety light power supply can be separated from the
motorcycle main wiring and battery

http://dx.com/p/100w-6500k-9000lm-led-white-light-module-white-dc-32-34v-155708

100W, 9000 Lumens....I WILL CHALLENGE THE SUN!

[budda]

all it needs is some common sense really and not velcroing them on etc

ACTUALLY, Spyda me old mate, there IS Velcro that is eminently suitable, as used in MotoGP etc - but its a safe bet that 99% will try and get by with Spyda pubes instead.

All that's really required is some common sense ....... oh wait, that's right ..................