NZSBK Round 2 - dispute

[Billy]

If i read it as legal - I'd do it. Besides the obvious potential performance increase, there are other benefits. Some of the engines I've blueprinted have gone on to have long lives on the road after their race careers are finished. Simply correcting factory assembly errors has ensured a longer service life.

Having read Oyster's posts i tend to agree that the problem started as soon as it became a National class with a title available...In my book, any class in the book as bearing a title is fair game for the people wanting to spend cash....So make those classes open.

Back to F1, F2, F3....

I'm not going to bag HPE, I know Gav quite well. Like a lot of engine reconditioner machinists, he will do what the customer wants. If the customer tells what it's going to be used for, fair enough, there may be eyebrows raised....if not, no questions. Just pay the bill please sir, we're a commercial organisation with staff to keep employed.

Why would you even suggest anybody was bagging HPE,As I understand it they are very good at what they do,Of course he will do what the customer asks,I had a discussion with another supplier of aftermarket parts about this class and he was quite defensive at the beginning,Until I pointed out the same thing to him,Business is business and you just do what your asked to do so you can make a living.


Yip I agree F1/2/3 is definitely alot easier to police

[Billy]

good point Peter, so how about someone in the know clarifying for me what friday practice is classed as at the nationals. do bikes have to be fully within the rules etc for that day, do riders have the same on track disciplines, ie drop a bike; no returning to pits. pray tell me.

ANY event run under an MNZ permit is bound by the rules in the manual as was the case at rounds 1 and 2 of NZSBK2014

[ellipsis]

Then the rules are proof read and re written by a lawyer or what ever, but as they do not understand our game, the words they choose to use are often still left open to interpretation. The rules need writting by a person who can use a dictionery and knows how to build bikes and motors, so all the grey areas are covered.


...anyone who can read and write the good old queens english and new what the rules related to could do it...it is not just the rules pertaining to specs and class rules that are a problem...clubs and officials are left wide open to a few problems, big ones too, with a lot of the wording or lack of...check out the fire extinguisher rules which leave clubs and officials in big time shit if somebody turned their pit into a fireball and somebody died...and as has been mentioned earlier in the thread by someone, the starting, grid procedure...interpretation yet again, due to mis-wording...just because we all should have known the intent of the rule, means jack shit in a court of law, if it reads two ways...

[Billy]

Then the rules are proof read and re written by a lawyer or what ever, but as they do not understand our game, the words they choose to use are often still left open to interpretation. The rules need writting by a person who can use a dictionery and knows how to build bikes and motors, so all the grey areas are covered.

MNZ already has a standing rules committee that is charged with ensuring this happens already,PLUS the board are supposed to proof read them to ratify them before they become active,That system works well doesn't it?

[SS90]

If i read it as legal - I'd do it. Besides the obvious potential performance increase, there are other benefits. Some of the engines I've blueprinted have gone on to have long lives on the road after their race careers are finished. Simply correcting factory assembly errors has ensured a longer service life.

Having read Oyster's posts i tend to agree that the problem started as soon as it became a National class with a title available...In my book, any class in the book as bearing a title is fair game for the people wanting to spend cash....So make those classes open.

Back to F1, F2, F3....

I'm not going to bag HPE, I know Gav quite well. Like a lot of engine reconditioner machinists, he will do what the customer wants. If the customer tells what it's going to be used for, fair enough, there may be eyebrows raised....if not, no questions. Just pay the bill please sir, we're a commercial organisation with staff to keep employed.

Totally, the benifits of blue printing are many, and unfortunately pricey.
Is it likely to make the difference between a race winning bike and an also ran? I would be dubious about that on something like a 250cc twin. But if somehow there was a viability in having engines blue printed, sealed and supplied by a governing body, then that's a sound way to go. Even if it is only aimed at engine longevity.

Under cutting of lower ratio gears is a good example of what manufacturers still don't do from the factory as they should.

We have all seen illegal modifications done to engines in control classeswith no real world gain (moreover actual losses), however, they are illegal and in actual fact, should be excluded... Win lose or also ran.

[SS90]

Then the rules are proof read and re written by a lawyer or what ever, but as they do not understand our game, the words they choose to use are often still left open to interpretation. The rules need writting by a person who can use a dictionery and knows how to build bikes and motors, so all the grey areas are covered.

Quite right. Although I also believe it is not very difficult to exclude any ambiguity from rule books, particularly when it come to control class engines.

[Billy]

incorrect, I often do a little extra for my customers without charging them, it's building my business and reputation and through that i've a better chance of getting the next job.
KFC don't do a two for one deal because they're feeling generous, it's marketing.

To me there's a set of rules here that are open to interpretation, lock em down, write them betterer.
For example there's a rule stating 'no recording equipment'.
People read it to be 'Oh they're not talking about cameras, they mean all that other data logger shit etc' well do they or don't they want the riders to not run cameras or do they not care, is this an oversight or mean do not run cameras? What's more there has been many vids of 250 production put on the web and has anybody said ANYTHING about it while it was happening either to the competitor or officials, either officially or unofficially???? and that the rule book states 'no recording equipment'

poorly written and open to interpretation.

Pretty simple to work out for yourself,

Have a wee think,Does a camera record anything???? Why yes it does,Ask the immediate past commissioner or the present one what the intent of the rule is,Has anybody mentioned it earlier,NO,But that doesn't mean the rule doesn't exist,If you run the gauntlet long enough you will eventually get caught.

Open to interpretation??? Where about's in the manual does it mention interpretation?Oh yea thats right 22.9 "The roadrace commission shall rule on ANY rule interpretation during the season and notify all competitors" Did anybody ask???? NO

You can sugar coat it anyway you want,But all the info required is available if you ask,Ignorance is no excuse.

[Shaun Harris]

MNZ already has a standing rules committee that is charged with ensuring this happens already,PLUS the board are supposed to proof read them to ratify them before they become active,That system works well doesn't it?





About as well as the Sponorship commitee does I guess

[Paul in NZ]

You guys crack me up.... There is no statement covering a complex machine or class of machine ever written that cannot be mis interpretted, twisted or fudged by those seeking to gain an advantage. If you think a set of simple rules covering motorcycle racing here in NZ can achieve this then I would suggest you abandon actually racing bikes and run the national championship based on who can misinterpret the rules the best. It would save money to as you could just email in the essay...

What is important is the intent of the rule. If that is knowingly circumvented then thats cheating...

Is it any wonder motorcycle racing is not the spectacle it once was? Maybe you should just televise the rules debates? Theres more venom in this than on the track... It could make for good TV...

[budda]

I'm looking forward to seeing a remit insisting that all production class bikes be road registered- and legal - and must be ridden to the meeting.

Edit - And raced on the tyres they rode in on......

BULLSEYE - Happy to present that for your consideration as Commissioner - whats your address ?

[jellywrestler]

Pretty simple to work out for yourself,

Have a wee think,Does a camera record anything???? Why yes it does,Ask the immediate past commissioner or the present one what the intent of the rule is,Has anybody mentioned it earlier,NO,But that doesn't mean the rule doesn't exist,If you run the gauntlet long enough you will eventually get caught.

Open to interpretation??? Where about's in the manual does it mention interpretation?Oh yea thats right 22.9 "The roadrace commission shall rule on ANY rule interpretation during the season and notify all competitors" Did anybody ask???? NO

You can sugar coat it anyway you want,But all the info required is available if you ask,Ignorance is no excuse.

not trying to sugarcoat anything Billy. There are people out there who think that this doesn't apply to cameras and is an oversight, there 'WAS' no shortage of footage from 250 proddie on you tube and no-one said anything, call it apathy or are people generally making up there own minds here? there's a list of things not allowed including data loggers, should cameras not be put on that list too to clear it up.

Sadly the ability, or want, to read rules these days is lacking and while you state no recording equipment and it clearly means it people are thinking that it doesn't apply to cameras. As usual we have to spoon feed people, but if that's what we have to do that's what we have to do.

[Grumph]

You guys crack me up.... There is no statement covering a complex machine or class of machine ever written that cannot be mis interpretted, twisted or fudged by those seeking to gain an advantage. If you think a set of simple rules covering motorcycle racing here in NZ can achieve this then I would suggest you abandon actually racing bikes and run the national championship based on who can misinterpret the rules the best. It would save money to as you could just email in the essay...

What is important is the intent of the rule. If that is knowingly circumvented then thats cheating...

Is it any wonder motorcycle racing is not the spectacle it once was? Maybe you should just televise the rules debates? Theres more venom in this than on the track... It could make for good TV...

I debated whether to reply...nothing else to do, sorry.

i call bullshit on the intent of the rule being paramount...check with any lawyer, it's the written word which is paramount.

However, ellipsis sums it up quite well, yes clubs and officials are left hung out to dry by badly written rules. the rules committee needs an overhaul. Asking MNZ for clarification in the middle of a meeting on a Sunday isn't really an option either...
i'll say it again, with clarification - the rules committee needs to contain engine builders as well as bike builders, racers and sponsors.
Often it's only the guys actually doing the work - including machining - who know what is required to make machinery last in race conditions. Sponsors and manufacturers may want to race dead stock bikes but if it's already known they won't last or have known faults, there's got to be allowances made. Unfortunately, I've got to include suspension reworkers in the picture too..
So it's back to easily policed open classes...

[budda]

Hmmm, isn't that one hell of an "interpretation" from our ex-commissioner? Seriously, how the fuck can it be called "entry level" when we have EJC Champion Jake Lewis racing in the class? Or hot shot's from Australia flown in to compete in an "entry level" class despite winning it the year before and competing at a far higher level in Australia? You are seriously taking the piss with that statement.


.

The Class was specifically designed from Day 1 to be an entry-level Class, where the emphasis is on Rider development rather than the wallet-racing that most others inevitably turn into when Mr Nearly feels hard done by when Mr Moretalented carves his arse on some shitter that shouldn't get anywhere near him

It was given National Champ status so there was a POINT to it - without that it would be just another Club class that could get bastardised by the hand-wringers dumbing down our Sport - same rules for all, everywhere ........
in theory at LEAST, cant get fairer than that ..........

[SS90]

Pretty simple to work out for yourself,

Have a wee think,Does a camera record anything???? Why yes it does,Ask the immediate past commissioner or the present one what the intent of the rule is,Has anybody mentioned it earlier,No
I hate to be a pedant, but no recording equipment means well, no recording equipment. Foregoing little Johnny's big moment on YouTube is the price that has to be paid to remove ambiguity.

[Grumph]

BULLSEYE - Happy to present that for your consideration as Commissioner - whats your address ?

You know that quite well i think....now i'm officially retired, i'll give it some consideration.

[Billy]

I debated whether to reply...nothing else to do, sorry.

i call bullshit on the intent of the rule being paramount...check with any lawyer, it's the written word which is paramount.

However, ellipsis sums it up quite well, yes clubs and officials are left hung out to dry by badly written rules. the rules committee needs an overhaul. Asking MNZ for clarification in the middle of a meeting on a Sunday isn't really an option either...
i'll say it again, with clarification - the rules committee needs to contain engine builders as well as bike builders, racers and sponsors.
Often it's only the guys actually doing the work - including machining - who know what is required to make machinery last in race conditions. Sponsors and manufacturers may want to race dead stock bikes but if it's already known they won't last or have known faults, there's got to be allowances made. Unfortunately, I've got to include suspension reworkers in the picture too..
So it's back to easily policed open classes...

Much easier to just dump any production based classes and go with Formula classes restricted by capacity and fuel only though,

The current structure just does not offer a fair and even playing feild for all.

[oyster]

The Class was specifically designed from Day 1 to be an entry-level Class, where the emphasis is on Rider development rather than the wallet-racing that most others inevitably turn into when Mr Nearly feels hard done by when Mr Moretalented carves his arse on some shitter that shouldn't get anywhere near him

It was given National Champ status so there was a POINT to it - without that it would be just another Club class that could get bastardised by the hand-wringers dumbing down our Sport - same rules for all, everywhere ........
in theory at LEAST, cant get fairer than that ..........

In the earlier post I explained where "day 1" was. The 250 was intended as a alternative technical equivalent to the 150 two stroke in Streetstock. The worry was the 150 would strike obsolesence problems. We were planning ahead so the highly successful Streetstock formula, with age based non nat championships (sportsfotoz cup, mcleary cup) would not be jeopardised. Instead, much more recently, the 250 was splintered off into a national class to try and fulfill a client base that didn't exist, the people that might have gone for it already having Protwin and 125GP. And giving the raspberry "just another club class" stinks. 98% of the members ride these classes, more importantly it's where they acquire the skill to prepare for championship competition.

[jellywrestler]

I hate to be a pedant, but no recording equipment means well, no recording equipment. Foregoing little Johnny's big moment on YouTube is the price that has to be paid to remove ambiguity.

my point is people are reading the rule and thinking oh it doesn't mean cameras, and running them and nouts being done about it. then they're reading another rule and.....
here we are today.

[budda]

In the earlier post I explained where "day 1" was. The 250 was intended as a alternative technical equivalent to the 150 two stroke in Streetstock. The worry was the 150 would strike obsolesence problems. We were planning ahead so the highly successful Streetstock formula, with age based non nat championships (sportsfotoz cup, mcleary cup) would not be jeopardised. Instead, much more recently, the 250 was splintered off into a national class to try and fulfill a client base that didn't exist, the people that might have gone for it already having Protwin and 125GP. And giving the raspberry "just another club class" stinks. 98% of the members ride these classes, more importantly it's where they acquire the skill to prepare for championship competition.

Pete - you know as well as I do what the intent was for the introduction of the 250's:yawn:

And my comment re "club class" was NOT, repeat NOT a denigration - Club level racing and racers are where our future Champs are now - but it remains a fundamental truth that without a set of rules that apply NATIONALLY, Clubs will drift off onto their own tangent by emphasing some things more than their neighbour Club - end result, different rules driven by different priorities. NOT a criticism, just a statement that time has proven accurate

[jellywrestler]

Pete - you know as well as I do what the intent was for the introduction of the 250's:yawn:

And my comment re "club class" was NOT, repeat NOT a denigration - Club level racing and racers are where our future Champs are now - but it remains a fundamental truth that without a set of rules that apply NATIONALLY, Clubs will drift off onto their own tangent by emphasing some things more than their neighbour Club - end result, different rules driven by different priorities. NOT a criticism, just a statement that time has proven accurate

despite whatever has happened now the introduction of the 250 proddie class again was a great move by mnz and all those who made it happen. bringing luke burgess in also gave our competitors something to base themselves on as a benchmark and proved that this wasn't just a class to sweep up the leftover riders, i would have loved to see a supersport or superbike rider in the mix it all helps to give the sport credibility. ok so now one bike MAY have been naughty, don't fucking throw the baby out with the bath water, clean the fucking water and lets watch this class for what it is, closer possible racing. The dev class is great but it also reigns in the bikes that don't match, like F3.
look at the presentation of the 250 machines, it is well worthy of national class status and champions there will rise further up in the future.

[oyster]

my point is people are reading the rule and thinking oh it doesn't mean cameras, and running them and nouts being done about it. then they're reading another rule and.....
here we are today.

I think people are overcomplicating this rule business. When I was coord for Streetstock
I used to regularly drum it in to all of them, collectively. "read your rule book. Generally, if you can remove it, it will be stated. If you can add it, it will be stated. If you're not sure, ask me. If I'm not sure, I'll go to the commission and get an answer as soon as possible."
It worked, all you were left with then were a few obstinate ones, 99% of the time senior, experienced racers prepping bikes for a young one. The firm hand of the steward is the only answer for them. And really, I had an interest to spell this out, as when bikes changed hands, I'd invariably get the phonecall from the prospective buyer (usually very new to the sport) "what's this bike like". Awkward, but only one answer, that's to tell them it's illegal (if I knew), as it would be a disaster for a newcomer to be getting the sideways look when they are quite innnocent (in intent) Doesn't make you popular with the seller though!!!!
Now where was this "keeping the rules applied is difficult" problem.

[Shaun Harris]

F1 F2 F3 Sidecars for the main championship and any thing any other club wants to run in there series to cater for there members. As Billy said earlier, fuel and bore size restrictions only, and lets go and party.

There would end up being some very cool bikes on the grid with these classes, yes dependent on the budget but at least johnny with a machinist mate could have a bloody good go and really enjoy there racing by being more involved than current scenario.

would still love to see a proffessionally built GSXR750 Bored to the max to see how one would go against the thou bikes, I reckon it would be there or there abouts, at least you would see it passing the thous in some funny places as the corner speed would be so much higher just like a 600.

The one I built years ago could hold the slip stream of Ray clee on his thou on the front straight at CH CH, but was total crap on throttle openings as the engine builder decided to put different cams in it than I had given him. I won that case in small claims court after he took me to court for not paying his bill, WANKER he lost a shit load of charge out income as the court ruled in my favour as I knew they would. As the ENGINE builder did not do what he was contracted to do!

[budda]

despite whatever has happened now the introduction of the 250 proddie class again was a great move by mnz and all those who made it happen. bringing luke burgess in also gave our competitors something to base themselves on as a benchmark and proved that this wasn't just a class to sweep up the leftover riders, i would have loved to see a supersport or superbike rider in the mix it all helps to give the sport credibility. ok so now one bike MAY have been naughty, don't fucking throw the baby out with the bath water, clean the fucking water and lets watch this class for what it is, closer possible racing. The dev class is great but it also reigns in the bikes that don't match, like F3.
look at the presentation of the 250 machines, it is well worthy of national class status and champions there will rise further up in the future.

AMEN to that ........

[Shaun Harris]

I think people are overcomplicating this rule business. When I was coord for Streetstock
I used to regularly drum it in to all of them, collectively. "read your rule book. Generally, if you can remove it, it will be stated. If you can add it, it will be stated. If you're not sure, ask me. If I'm not sure, I'll go to the commission and get an answer as soon as possible."
It worked, all you were left with then were a few obstinate ones, 99% of the time senior, experienced racers prepping bikes for a young one. The firm hand of the steward is the only answer for them. And really, I had an interest to spell this out, as when bikes changed hands, I'd invariably get the phonecall from the prospective buyer (usually very new to the sport) "what's this bike like". Awkward, but only one answer, that's to tell them it's illegal (if I knew), as it would be a disaster for a newcomer to be getting the sideways look when they are quite innnocent (in intent) Doesn't make you popular with the seller though!!!!
Now where was this "keeping the rules applied is difficult" problem.





Not to degrade your exellent work with that class Pete, But it was realy focused on the Ch Ch club scene, so was a lot more easier to manage police. Now the 250 class is NZ Championship status, it will unfortunately draw out the not so legal units and owners and builders of them.

The club scene should all be about development classes and fun, and the National scene should be about the leading classes and fun if you can find it

[Yow Ling]

Interpreting the rules is tricky, re the Camera thing, of course they are recording devices, but so are lap timers, egt gauges that record max temp and max rpm, odometers, engine hour meters , and quite possibly tyre wear indicators.
its easy to take the thread off in a tangent.

[budda]

Interpreting the rules is tricky, its easy to take the thread off in a tangent.

Like you said ..........

[jellywrestler]

Interpreting the rules is tricky, re the Camera thing, of course they are recording devices, but so are lap timers, egt gauges that record max temp and max rpm, odometers, engine hour meters , and quite possibly tyre wear indicators.
its easy to take the thread off in a tangent.
i'm trying to point out that some people are interpreting the rules how they want and the public placement of this footage means they honestly think it's OK, are the way the rules written simply not watertight enough?
while the intent of the 250 rules is no machining it doesn't actually state this and therefore the battle is off the track rather than on it.?????

[budda]

i'm trying to point out that some people are interpreting the rules how they want and the public placement of this footage means they honestly think it's OK, are the way the rules written simply not watertight enough?
while the intent of the 250 rules is no machining it doesn't actually state this and therefore the battle is off the track rather than on it.?????

Come on Spyda - doesn't say do wees before you go out either, or we recommend you abstain from falling off, as experience has shown that to be counter-productive

When the rule says, unless its listed here as something you can faff with, it must be standard, how hard IS that to understand. REALLY ??????

[scrivy]

Geezuz.......... and here am I thinking the Americas Cup rules were hard to follow........... :wacko::crazy::eek5::brick::yes::gob::hug:

[Grumph]

I think people are overcomplicating this rule business. When I was coord for Streetstock
I used to regularly drum it in to all of them, collectively. "read your rule book. Generally, if you can remove it, it will be stated. If you can add it, it will be stated. If you're not sure, ask me. If I'm not sure, I'll go to the commission and get an answer as soon as possible."
It worked, all you were left with then were a few obstinate ones, 99% of the time senior, experienced racers prepping bikes for a young one. The firm hand of the steward is the only answer for them. And really, I had an interest to spell this out, as when bikes changed hands, I'd invariably get the phonecall from the prospective buyer (usually very new to the sport) "what's this bike like". Awkward, but only one answer, that's to tell them it's illegal (if I knew), as it would be a disaster for a newcomer to be getting the sideways look when they are quite innnocent (in intent) Doesn't make you popular with the seller though!!!!
Now where was this "keeping the rules applied is difficult" problem.

thank christ i never did any 150's....I watched what you did with this class Pete - as far as i saw it anyway. I was of the opinion then and now that it was all smoke and mirrors and if anyone had seriously challenged a rule interpretation, you could well have had it all come apart. i reckon it was simply strength of personality holding it together - and training the group to look to you for guidance.
Yes, it worked at a local level but I'm pretty sure at national level it would take a superman - and not just the leathers either (sorry)

[Grumph]

Come on Spyda - doesn't say do wees before you go out either, or we recommend you abstain from falling off, as experience has shown that to be counter-productive

When the rule says, unless its listed here as something you can faff with, it must be standard, how hard IS that to understand. REALLY ??????

If the new readings from the bible at riders briefing don't include "do wees before racing" or "don't fall off", maybe they should...

Oh, and when you've got a week to spare Peter, define "standard" for us please.

[Billy]

Come on Spyda - doesn't say do wees before you go out either, or we recommend you abstain from falling off, as experience has shown that to be counter-productive

When the rule says, unless its listed here as something you can faff with, it must be standard, how hard IS that to understand. REALLY ??????

This could go on forever with some folks trying to defend others or interpret rules,

The manual states OEM NOT within spec,If the intent was to allow machining then there would be NO restriction on gasket thickness,In fact the rule would say,If metal is removed from gasket surfaces,Then a thicker gasket must be fitted,END OF,Anything else is just a smokescreen.

GOSH!!!! I really wish I could stick around and deal with more of this.

[budda]

If the new readings from the bible at riders briefing don't include "do wees before racing" or "don't fall off", maybe they should...

Oh, and when you've got a week to spare Peter, define "standard" for us please.

"Standard" .... a small diameter thin stick-like post used to hold fencing wire off the ground

[Shaun Harris]

New Series, new rules, new police people. The rot in this old society goes way to deep to ever dig up properly.

[Shaun Harris]

i'm trying to point out that some people are interpreting
while the intent of the 250 rules is no machining it doesn't actually state this and therefore the battle is off the track rather than on it.?????





In the Heading of the rule page

"NOTE:
All items not mentioned in the following articles must remain as originally produced
by the manufacturer, remain fitted and operational for that homologated model."




Clear as mud to me, but I am an old has been I guess

[scott411]

New Series, new rules, new police people. The rot in this old society goes way to deep to ever dig up properly.

how would you achieve this new police work? the appeal proceedure would not change, the board would not change to much as the election process does not allow it to,

for what you want to happen would require another change to the constitution in regards to the appeal process, its not an easy change, and this constitution is not that old as it is,

would you have the support needed to change the constitution?

[scrivy]

Oh, and when you've got a week to spare Peter, define "standard" for us please.

Standard - for cream puffs, and Self rising - for egomaniacs.......
294435

[Shaun Harris]

how would you achieve this new police work? the appeal proceedure would not change, the board would not change to much as the election process does not allow it to,

for what you want to happen would require another change to the constitution in regards to the appeal process, its not an easy change, and this constitution is not that old as it is,

would you have the support needed to change the constitution?



New Series-new rules-new police people

Walk rather run away from MNZ and start a seperate series

[Shaun Harris]

Standard It is standard that a riders name or a sport gets mucked up by people being involved who cheat

[Kickaha]

Right on it Shaun. A good example was the 600 tyre allocation.

:lol: Tyre allocation and Shaun, first time I saw some grumpy little Ginga (I later found out was Shaun) was him having a whinge at the tyre allocation not being enough for (I think)the 600 class at Ruapuna riders briefing for Nationals about 2001 and about how unsafe it was to run with that few a tyres for a National round, pretty sure MNZ caved in and let them have more despite it being stated in the regs how many people could use

[Shaun Harris]

:lol: Tyre allocation and Shaun, first time I saw some grumpy little Ginga (I later found out was Shaun) was him having a whinge at the tyre allocation not being enough for (I think)the 600 class at Ruapuna riders briefing for Nationals about 2001 and about how unsafe it was to run with that few a tyres for a National round, pretty sure MNZ caved in and let them have more despite it being stated in the regs how many people could use





Did I win? did i did i, winning means coming first kick, thats actually in front of the boys butts you like to follow and watch

[ellipsis]

...stop it you children...don't you realise the gravity of the situation...and shit...


'and shit' (TM)...thanks Akzle

[Kickaha]

Did I win? did i did i, winning means coming first kick, thats actually in front of the boys butts you like to follow and watch

I think you did because MNZ at the time were too spineless to front up to you and tell you to fuck off like the MCI president at time wanted to do

[Shaun Harris]

I think you did because MNZ at the time were too spineless to front up to you and tell you to fuck off like the MCI president at time wanted to do







Do they play in thesame soft cocks sand pit with you also kicki.

[nodrog]

Can Shauns caregiver please put him to bed.

[Shaun Harris]

Can Shauns caregiver please put him to bed.






Night darling

[jellywrestler]

Can Shauns caregiver please put him to bed.

he uses his I-Humpty when he's in bed sadly

[suzuki21]

In the Heading of the rule page

"NOTE:
All items not mentioned in the following articles must remain as originally produced
by the manufacturer, remain fitted and operational for that homologated model."

This is so self explanatory I think the problem may not be MNZ but people that cant fucking read.

[bucketracer]

I believe it is not very difficult to exclude any ambiguity from rule books, particularly when it come to control class engines.

Not very difficult to exclude any ambiguity, Hmmm ok I will buy it, SS90, we can see your a very practiced talker, maybe you could draft some un ambiguous amendments for us to look at, shouldn't be to hard.

[Kickaha]

Do they play in thesame soft cocks sand pit with you also kicki.
If they played in my sandpit you would have been told to fuck off, you knew the rules before you arrived and then wanted them changed on the day :tugger:


Can Shauns caregiver please put him to bed.
Get them to medicate him heavily

[MVnut]

...stop it you children...don't you realise the gravity of the situation...and shit...


'and shit' (TM)...thanks Akzle

................and shit

[ellipsis]

...and this my friends is why we are in the state we are in...and have been ...and will be...I spoke with fifteen random riders who I have in my phone list today...thats about a tenth of those whose number is on my list...twelve of them dont have time, inclination or interest or computer skills to come here, or even know about KB...and when appraised of the shit being talked here, have various reactions, from giggling to being mildly fucked off.

...85% of fee paying road racers just wanna go race their mate's or adversaries at club meetings, and don't give a fuck about who gets their money...doesn't mean they are going to take kindly to some other bods coming in and fucking their passions, for a thing that 15% of the proletariat want to pursue...where's your deal with them...a little bit of a crash gonna happen somewhere...and this is the ether don't forget...some swim in it, most pay hard cash...

[ellipsis]

...and shit...

[SS90]

my point is people are reading the rule and thinking oh it doesn't mean cameras, and running them and nouts being done about it. then they're reading another rule and.....
here we are today.

Yea totally. I agree. Personally, if I was running a bike in the class, I would not misconstrue the wording to say anything else. No recording equipment means just that.
Some people just struggle to accept not being competitive and need to feel they are winning in some other way.

"Bending of rules" is just one example.

Like many things that flout the rules, they more often than not offer no real advantage.
But this should exclude them from the points. Crack down on everything, and it's going to be less attractive to do things that have real benifits.
But like always, a cheaters going to cheat.

[Shaun Harris]

This is so self explanatory I think the problem may not be MNZ but people that cant fucking read.






hence the word CHEATING exists mate

[Shaun Harris]

If they played in my sandpit you would have been told to fuck off, you knew the rules before you arrived and then wanted them changed on the day :tugger:


Get them to medicate him heavily






So with my grumpy attitude you refer to from 13 years ago ( Wow what a memory to drag back up just to be a key board hero) I achieved more tyre allocation for a whole class of 600 riders!!

Must re sharpen my grumpy skills and see if I can achieve any more possitives for the competitors

Thanks for the insults though, im really enjoying being the adult in this conversation you lovely person you, have a fantastic day:first:

[Billy]

Yea totally. I agree. Personally, if I was running a bike in the class, I would not misconstrue the wording to say anything else. No recording equipment means just that.
Some people just struggle to accept not being competitive and need to feel they are winning in some other way.

"Bending of rules" is just one example.

Like many things that flout the rules, they more often than not offer no real advantage.
But this should exclude them from the points. Crack down on everything, and it's going to be less attractive to do things that have real benifits.
But like always, a cheaters going to cheat.

Problem being,

Its become abundantly clear MNZ do NOT have a fair and just system in place that supports the people at the coalface making the decisions on the spot,Its all about smoke and mirrors,On the face of it,Theres no point having tech checks at meetings or attempting to enforce any rules under the current system.

Having tried to change the NZSBK series into a more uniform model that is run as a proper series,Its become obvious that it was the wrong direction,In fact it appears the earlier model of classes limited by capacity and fuel only(F1/2/3/125gp/Sidecars) and 5 individually run events that the points from which go towards the overall championship.

If a club wants to run a race meeting whereby they don't want the dramas of the MNZ rulebook cause they just wanna have fun,Easy,Don't run under an MNZ permit,NZ Law does not prevent any organisation from running race meetings if they are not under MNZ and why would you have a whole bunch of rules that are not going to be adhered to????Jellywrestlers statement regarding cameras is typical of the mindset,While I don't disagree that the rule could be more stringently enforced,His argument that "nobody mentioned it before" is laughable,I mean imagine explaining to the nice officer that you shouldn't be issued with a speeding infringement because youve driven in a particular 50k zone at 100k for 10 years and nobody said anything before....Good luck with that.

The roadracing model is about to change dramatically I would suggest and for the better.

[Shaun Harris]

Problem being,

Its become abundantly clear MNZ do NOT have a fair and just system in place that supports the people at the coalface making the decisions on the spot,Its all about smoke and mirrors,On the face of it,Theres no point having tech checks at meetings or attempting to enforce any rules under the current system.

Having tried to change the NZSBK series into a more uniform model that is run as a proper series,Its become obvious that it was the wrong direction,In fact it appears the earlier model of classes limited by capacity and fuel only(F1/2/3/125gp/Sidecars) and 5 individually run events that the points from which go towards the overall championship.



The roadracing model is about to change dramatically I would suggest and for the better.







Bring it on big boy!

I dont care how ugly or badly dressed you are ( Speaking for Robert of course)

[jellywrestler]

Jellywrestlers statement regarding cameras is typical of the mindset,While I don't disagree that the rule could be more stringently enforced,His argument that "nobody mentioned it before" is laughable,I mean imagine explaining to the nice officer that you shouldn't be issued with a speeding infringement because youve driven in a particular 50k zone at 100k for 10 years and nobody said anything before....Good luck with that.
my argument 'nobody mentioned it before' was not an attempt to justify it being okay whatsoever, it was a clear breach of the rules for those who knew the rules and i'm interested that neither a fellow competitor, or an official pointed out the fact that it wasn't legal to run.
There's a set of rules and is it true that the only time they're looked at or enforced is when there's actually a protest?

[Shaun Harris]

There's a set of rules and is it true that the only time they're looked at or enforced is when there's actually a protest?







No one gets charged with assult until a punch is thrown man

[Kiwi Graham]

No one gets charged with assult until a punch is thrown man

Yes you can mate, you just don't get convicted unless it's proven ;-)

[steveyb]

Having tried to change the NZSBK series into a more uniform model that is run as a proper series,Its become obvious that it was the wrong direction,In fact it appears the earlier model of classes limited by capacity and fuel only(F1/2/3/125gp/Sidecars) and 5 individually run events that the points from which go towards the overall championship.



No way mate, we simply cannot go back to where we were before this year, in terms of the format and organisation that is.
The organisation this season has been outstanding and I for one (as a former racer and now team owner/manager and coach) have been very grateful for it.
Having one single point of contact over the whole series (i.e. single riders rep, single CoC, single Steward), the same timetable, same entry forms, single website for entries, on-line entries etc etc has been spot on. Reminds me of, oh how about MotoGP! I know, I know, it's a stretch, but that is how they work. Isn't it neat knowing who is who and what is what for the whole series?
OK, so some of the systems behind the scenes have broken down (due it seems from reading between the lines to personalities outside of the series proper, not necessarily those at the coalface and of course someone pushing, bending or maybe breaking rules), but as Jellybelly points out, there is no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. If rules were broken by anyone (aside from any particular appeal or otherwise), let us censure them and move on. The management team have that right and responsibility.

My rider and team and I are hanging out to get to Taupo and Manfeild to carve up again (and not crash into anyone this time...) and I really hope the management team remains together and strong.
I know that one in particular is really struggling, I mean really struggling and needs our support. I feel that in the case that has opened this can of worms there is a case to be made for peer pressure to be bought upon the persons involved to come clean about what they believe they have not done and let their peers make a decision in locus parentas so to speak of MNZ. I feel strongly that there is an element of some people hiding behind the system that is now impacting on the health and wellbeing of very valuable volunteers who have taken their own precious lives, time, leave, money and health to be subjected to this.

It is not safe, fun nor fair!

I have been staying out of this debate because I have seen it all before, over and over (like many others). I started out in 250 Production racing in the 1990's (on real bikes mind you) and us newbies and not-so-fasties all said, 'till we were blue in the face, that the fast guys were cheating. Compression this, chambers that, suspension the other. But we only begrudgingly agreed that those blokes (and blokesses) were just faster riders and we had to push on to catch up. The same story can be told about Junior Production, Production Superbike, Streetstock 150, 600 Sport Production, Formula 1, Formula 2, Formula 3, Pro-Twin etc etc with people pushing, bending and breaking rules.

EDIT: PLEASE NOTE THAT THESE COMMENTS COUNT IF THERE HAS BEEN CHEATING. IT MAY WELL BE THAT THERE HAS BEEN NOTHING OF THE SORT. PLEASE BEAR THAT IN MIND. THERE IS NO NEED TO ACTIVATE THE LYNCH MOBS HERE. WE HAVE A PROCESS THAT IS QUITE ROBUST LET'S LET IT TAKE ITS COURSE.

My 10c worth.

Steve Bagshaw
Moto Academy NZ
Innovative Moto Developments

[Shaun Harris]

Yes you can mate, you just don't get convicted unless it's proven ;-)






Do not take every thing you read Literilly Graham, Im sure Jelli understood what I was meaning

[Billy]

No way mate, we simply cannot go back to where we were before this year, in terms of the format and organisation that is.
The organisation this season has been outstanding and I for one (as a former racer and now team owner/manager and coach) have been very grateful for it.
Having one single point of contact over the whole series (i.e. single riders rep, single CoC, single Steward), the same timetable, same entry forms, single website for entries, on-line entries etc etc has been spot on. Reminds me of, oh how about MotoGP! I know, I know, it's a stretch, but that is how they work. Isn't it neat knowing who is who and what is what for the whole series?
OK, so some of the systems behind the scenes have broken down (due it seems from reading between the lines to personalities outside of the series proper, not necessarily those at the coalface and of course someone pushing, bending or maybe breaking rules), but as Jellybelly points out, there is no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. If rules were broken by anyone (aside from any particular appeal or otherwise), let us censure them and move on. The management team have that right and responsibility.

My rider and team and I are hanging out to get to Taupo and Manfeild to carve up again (and not crash into anyone this time...) and I really hope the management team remains together and strong.
I know that one in particular is really struggling, I mean really struggling and needs our support. I feel that in the case that has opened this can of worms there is a case to be made for peer pressure to be bought upon the persons involved to come clean about what they believe they have not done and let their peers make a decision in locus parentas so to speak of MNZ. I feel strongly that there is an element of some people hiding behind the system that is now impacting on the health and wellbeing of very valuable volunteers who have taken their own precious lives, time, leave, money and health to be subjected to this.

It is not safe, fun nor fair!

I have been staying out of this debate because I have seen it all before, over and over (like many others). I started out in 250 Production racing in the 1990's (on real bikes mind you) and us newbies and not-so-fasties all said, 'till we were blue in the face, that the fast guys were cheating. Compression this, chambers that, suspension the other. But we only begrudgingly agreed that those blokes (and blokesses) were just faster riders and we had to push on to catch up. The same story can be told about Junior Production, Production Superbike, Streetstock 150, 600 Sport Production, Formula 1, Formula 2, Formula 3, Pro-Twin etc etc with people pushing, bending and breaking rules.

My 10c worth.

Steve Bagshaw
Moto Academy NZ
Innovative Moto Developments

Don't disagree that the model we introduced this year is definitely a step in the right direction re the officials being there for the whole series,But sadly they are not keen to stay on as they don't think ANY commonsense has been used by those further up the foodchain in respect to backing them up,Therefore,Theres no point for them to carry on,Quite frankly,I handpicked those people,Because theyre the ONLY ones I trust to do the job in a fair and reasonable manner,But I'm sure you know that,They,Like me see things in a very black and white manner and have no favourites that get away with rulebreaking that others do not.UNFORTUNATELY there are some among us,That "do not play well with others" so to speak.

The beauty with Formula classes is they are sooooo much easier to police AND impossible to bullshit your way out of,Simple really,Then we don't need to have outside influences that can destroy the confidence of those at the coalface.Its still possible to have a group of officials the same as this year with a splintered 5 round series and you can call the classes whatever is agreed open ie F1 could become Superbike ????

[The Chow]

No way mate, we simply cannot go back to where we were before this year, in terms of the format and organisation that is.
The organisation this season has been outstanding and I for one (as a former racer and now team owner/manager and coach) have been very grateful for it.
Having one single point of contact over the whole series (i.e. single riders rep, single CoC, single Steward), the same timetable, same entry forms, single website for entries, on-line entries etc etc has been spot on. Reminds me of, oh how about MotoGP! I know, I know, it's a stretch, but that is how they work. Isn't it neat knowing who is who and what is what for the whole series?
OK, so some of the systems behind the scenes have broken down (due it seems from reading between the lines to personalities outside of the series proper, not necessarily those at the coalface and of course someone pushing, bending or maybe breaking rules), but as Jellybelly points out, there is no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. If rules were broken by anyone (aside from any particular appeal or otherwise), let us censure them and move on. The management team have that right and responsibility.

My rider and team and I are hanging out to get to Taupo and Manfeild to carve up again (and not crash into anyone this time...) and I really hope the management team remains together and strong.
I know that one in particular is really struggling, I mean really struggling and needs our support. I feel that in the case that has opened this can of worms there is a case to be made for peer pressure to be bought upon the persons involved to come clean about what they believe they have not done and let their peers make a decision in locus parentas so to speak of MNZ. I feel strongly that there is an element of some people hiding behind the system that is now impacting on the health and wellbeing of very valuable volunteers who have taken their own precious lives, time, leave, money and health to be subjected to this.

It is not safe, fun nor fair!

I have been staying out of this debate because I have seen it all before, over and over (like many others). I started out in 250 Production racing in the 1990's (on real bikes mind you) and us newbies and not-so-fasties all said, 'till we were blue in the face, that the fast guys were cheating. Compression this, chambers that, suspension the other. But we only begrudgingly agreed that those blokes (and blokesses) were just faster riders and we had to push on to catch up. The same story can be told about Junior Production, Production Superbike, Streetstock 150, 600 Sport Production, Formula 1, Formula 2, Formula 3, Pro-Twin etc etc with people pushing, bending and breaking rules.

My 10c worth.

Steve Bagshaw
Moto Academy NZ
Innovative Moto Developments

Thanks Steve , for your writings , unfortunately their are many who have tried to keep the course , but have just had enough . The clubs that never really bought in to the "series" thing since I've been involved in the modern era 2007- . The years where I had to do the Sub regs and entry forms at the last minute (2011/2012) otherwise there wouldn't have been any and that was MNZ's responsibility! and I wasn't even an official as such. Then to get as much coverage for the sport online since 2008. It was me (Not CTAS) that got the Internet coverage going , I met Grant and he asked me was there anything he could do I said yes "Live Timing" I introduced him to Tim Gibbes who was a bit IFy as he had heard it all before. Within a week there was live timing , now Grant has taken to the level it is now (as my ability doesn't stretch that far) and I happerly work with him doing interviews etc. But guess what , even Grant has had his own issues with getting things done. Now why am I going on about that , to see the shit that went on over the past couple of seasons has worn me down. Then the atitude of some of the clubs "Officials" and riders just made me wonder why I even bothered doing what I did. The lack of balls that MNZ has shown not just in this case but stretching back to when officials being abused by riders and officials never backed by the board , it makes me sick. I don't like to bag anyone , but I just over the crap. I'm no key board warrior , want to know more ask me when you see me next at Taupo or Manfeild.

[Billy]

Thanks Steve , for your writings , unfortunately their are many who have tried to keep the course , but have just had enough . The clubs that never really bought in to the "series" thing since I've been involved in the modern era 2007- . The years where I had to do the Sub regs and entry forms at the last minute (2011/2012) otherwise there wouldn't have been any and that was MNZ's responsibility! and I wasn't even an official as such. Then to get as much coverage for the sport online since 2008. It was me (Not CTAS) that got the Internet coverage going , I met Grant and he asked me was there anything he could do I said yes "Live Timing" I introduced him to Tim Gibbes who was a bit IFy as he had heard it all before. Within a week there was live timing , now Grant has taken to the level it is now (as my ability doesn't stretch that far) and I happerly work with him doing interviews etc. But guess what , even Grant has had his own issues with getting things done. Now why am I going on about that , to see the shit that went on over the past couple of seasons has worn me down. Then the atitude of some of the clubs "Officials" and riders just made me wonder why I even bothered doing what I did. The lack of balls that MNZ has shown not just in this case but stretching back to when officials being abused by riders and officials never backed by the board , it makes me sick. I don't like to bag anyone , but I just over the crap. I'm no key board warrior , want to know more ask me when you see me next at Taupo or Manfeild.

Bravo Ian,I don't think people realise how much you have done

[budda]

There's a set of rules and is it true that the only time they're looked at or enforced is when there's actually a protest?

NO - the last 3 times that have been raised on here have been the direct result of MNZ officials attempting to do what Competitors have been crying out for at the AGMS, i.e. APPLY our own rules

[steveyb]

I guess I am also a bit disappointed and exasperated by those (not just the current lot, but those in the past also) who know damned well that they are pushing the boundaries and that the outcome of any challenge will be a matter of interpretation (and they simply do know and understand that), and are caught, that they do not just put their hands up and say:

"Bugger, you got me. Fair cop gunvner. I pushed the boundaries and came a croppa. Hand me the penalty and we can all move on."
But no, they have all dug their toes in so that they don't lose face, or whatever they wish not to lose.

While it was a different situation entirely, a young rider in 125GP really upset everyone a couple of years ago. All sorts of things were said about the situation, his behaviour and him. But you know what?
He copped it sweet. He put his hand up, said (to paraphrase) "Yep I fucked up there didn't I, sorry about that. What do you want to do? OK, I'll cop that. Lets get on with it." And everyone came out of the situation learning something and a bit more mature for it.

Perhaps there can be a lesson learned in this case from that one?

EDIT: I re-read this and it might come across as taking a position that in this case there has been cheating. I wish to add here as an edit, which I hope will be read, that that was not my intention. I have no idea either way with regards to anyones bikes. I just wanted to make comment about sporting behaviours in general really, but using this as a vehicle to say something which I hope has a grain of constructivity (is that a word?) in it. Apologies to anyone who may have taken this to mean I was taking a side.

[Shaun Harris]

While it was a different situation entirely, a young rider in 125GP really upset everyone a couple of years ago. All sorts of things were said about the situation, his behaviour and him. But you know what?
He copped it sweet. He put his hand up, said (to paraphrase) "Yep I fucked up there didn't I, sorry about that. What do you want to do? OK, I'll cop that. Lets get on with it." And everyone came out of the situation learning something and a bit more mature for it.

Perhaps there can be a lesson learned in this case from that one?






Good on the young rider for taking it on the chin like a man. I would love the current issue to end by a certain ADULT acting like one and doing the same thing. I can understand how hard it would be for him to do now since his comments and post are very well documented of denial of it all, but in my mind he would be a bigger man to admit and stop all the time and money waste that is going on due to his own actions.

Some times it only takes one thing to rot the apple cart, and this one has really polutted it big time!

So what you admit to cheating ( Not good nor very sporting but neither is it nasty or vicious, just over competiveness) You will actually gain respect for being man enough to hold your hand up high. We all know you have been involved in racing for a long time and obviously love the sport, swallow your false sense of pride dude and let the ship leave the harbour. It would also be paying back a certain young man ( who has his name tainted now due to the modern internet) that trusted you with his life really and would be seen as an appology to all the officuals that have had to spend countless FREE HOURS of WORK trying to sought this mess out.

Show us all how much of a real man you are buddy and PLEASE STAND UP PLEASE STAND UP

[Shaun Harris]

Thanks Steve , for your writings , unfortunately their are many who have tried to keep the course , but have just had enough . The clubs that never really bought in to the "series" thing since I've been involved in the modern era 2007- . The years where I had to do the Sub regs and entry forms at the last minute (2011/2012) otherwise there wouldn't have been any and that was MNZ's responsibility! and I wasn't even an official as such. Then to get as much coverage for the sport online since 2008. It was me (Not CTAS) that got the Internet coverage going , I met Grant and he asked me was there anything he could do I said yes "Live Timing" I introduced him to Tim Gibbes who was a bit IFy as he had heard it all before. Within a week there was live timing , now Grant has taken to the level it is now (as my ability doesn't stretch that far) and I happerly work with him doing interviews etc. But guess what , even Grant has had his own issues with getting things done. Now why am I going on about that , to see the shit that went on over the past couple of seasons has worn me down. Then the atitude of some of the clubs "Officials" and riders just made me wonder why I even bothered doing what I did. The lack of balls that MNZ has shown not just in this case but stretching back to when officials being abused by riders and officials never backed by the board , it makes me sick. I don't like to bag anyone , but I just over the crap. I'm no key board warrior , want to know more ask me when you see me next at Taupo or Manfeild.





Ian, I for one owe you an apology for many moons ago and ranting at you, I know you will remember. I have no reasons nor justified exscuses for those actions of mine at all. Hope you accept my appologies for that Mate, and thankyou for all the hard work you do behind the scene also.

[scrivy]

I'm picking there are some on here that are going to end up getting a room together very soon...... :yes::yes::crazy::whistle::love::buggerd::shutup:


Kiwibiker - feeling the love.....

[oyster]

Very good point discussed steve, and right on topic with this thread. I had to explain to people who are pissed off with a seeming bad decision, that steward and coc are like cricket umpires. When that finget goes up, accept it. A photo next day showing the ball missed the bat will not see a trophy changing hands. Accept the referees call, whether he's right or wrong. It's only a problem if there's obvious bias or discrimination. Jaden hassen crashed early in the tt years ago. It was later stopped. Full race restart, but he was barred. Wrong call, but it's over. Dan mettam, crashed and continued in the SAME race, albeit 2 halves. Barred. Wrong call. Then bad behaviour was the issue. Sorry, but steward still the boss!

[scott411]

Very good point discussed steve, and right on topic with this thread. I had to explain to people who are pissed off with a seeming bad decision, that steward and coc are like cricket umpires. When that finget goes up, accept it. A photo next day showing the ball missed the bat will not see a trophy changing hands. Accept the referees call, whether he's right or wrong. It's only a problem if there's obvious bias or discrimination. Jaden hassen crashed early in the tt years ago. It was later stopped. Full race restart, but he was barred. Wrong call, but it's over. Dan mettam, crashed and continued in the SAME race, albeit 2 halves. Barred. Wrong call. Then bad behaviour was the issue. Sorry, but steward still the boss!

This is the best thing i have read on this issue, and I had the president up on the same issue,

We allow far to much of the officals word to be over ruled, this latest appeal is just the latest one, I think the Supercross rules where their is a referee, is the model to be used, they make the call, and it is enforced, if they make bad calls you get another referee,

[Shaun Harris]

This is the best thing i have read on this issue, and I had the president up on the same issue,

We allow far to much of the officals word to be over ruled, this latest appeal is just the latest one, I think the Supercross rules where their is a referee, is the model to be used, they make the call, and it is enforced, if they make bad calls you get another referee,






Scott, is there a link you could post to show the exact wording of how this procedure operates

[Shaun Harris]

I'm picking there are some on here that are going to end up getting a room together very soon...... :yes::yes::crazy::whistle::love::buggerd::shutup:


Kiwibiker - feeling the love.....







I tried to get a room for us but he likes his sand pit too much and I am starting to think he does not love me anymore. Man that is hard to deal with but at least I have my meds to help me through this difficult period of rejection.

[budda]

scott, is there a link you could post to show the exact wording of how this procedure operates

mnz rulebook shaun

[Shaun Harris]

mnz rulebook shaun





Thanks bucko, I hate reading through that thing on the net big time haha, yep, Im a lazy bugger

[Shaun Harris]

This is the best thing i have read on this issue, and I had the president up on the same issue,

We allow far to much of the officals word to be over ruled, this latest appeal is just the latest one, I think the Supercross rules where their is a referee, is the model to be used, they make the call, and it is enforced, if they make bad calls you get another referee,







I am asuming you are refering to rule 29.32------------29.32.11 Re the refere

Whilst I see very healthy benefits to having a referee, I must be missing something regarding how the supercross rules/ueage of a referee could have or could help in this case or these situations. As I read the description of the referee in rules listed above from MNZ web site, the ref basically keeps the meeting ONLY running smooth? They have nothing to do with protests/appeals etc.

Or is it that perhaps some letters were not dotted or crossed, and that is where the referee would be doing there job in this or other cases like it in the future?

[scott411]

I am asuming you are refering to rule 29.32------------29.32.11 Re the refere

yes, basically the referee takes care of racing side of things, not the CoC or the steward,

[RobGassit]

A clause in the sub regs giving final discretion to the COC or Head Steward who's decision would be final and not able to be appealed. At least then, the line in the sand is drawn. Volunteers may be hard to find.

[Shaun Harris]

yes, basically the referee takes care of racing side of things, not the CoC or the steward,






Understood and agreed with. Just like seperating and managing different departments of a buisness proffessionally

[budda]

Understood and agreed with. Just like seperating and managing different departments of a buisness proffessionally

Yup, just like CoC and Stewards roles are separated, and for the same reasons

[scott411]

Understood and agreed with. Just like seperating and managing different departments of a buisness proffessionally

also different skill set, i think a referee needs to think like a racer, where a steward and clerk of the course needs to think of saftey, just a better system IMHO

[The Chow]

Ian, I for one owe you an apology for many moons ago and ranting at you, I know you will remember. I have no reasons nor justified exscuses for those actions of mine at all. Hope you accept my appologies for that Mate, and thankyou for all the hard work you do behind the scene also.

Apology accepted Sean , no thanks needed , I did stuff because I wanted too , not to make a buck. (Violin Playing I hear :rolleyes:)

[The Chow]

Bravo Ian,I don't think people realise how much you have done

Like you Billy , Skunk , Bernie ,Leigh and many others. Just venting , but doesn't change my views on anything

[The Chow]

Don't disagree that the model we introduced this year is definitely a step in the right direction re the officials being there for the whole series,But sadly they are not keen to stay on as they don't think ANY commonsense has been used by those further up the foodchain in respect to backing them up,Therefore,Theres no point for them to carry on,Quite frankly,I handpicked those people,Because theyre the ONLY ones I trust to do the job in a fair and reasonable manner,But I'm sure you know that,They,Like me see things in a very black and white manner and have no favourites that get away with rulebreaking that others do not.UNFORTUNATELY there are some among us,That "do not play well with others" so to speak.

The beauty with Formula classes is they are sooooo much easier to police AND impossible to bullshit your way out of,Simple really,Then we don't need to have outside influences that can destroy the confidence of those at the coalface.Its still possible to have a group of officials the same as this year with a splintered 5 round series and you can call the classes whatever is agreed open ie F1 could become Superbike ????

There has been soooo many issues , I think you can't fix it within MNZ -too much red tape and politics. It is a shame because the racing as per normal has been great. Yep F1.F2 all the way imagine a trick 600. Nice wheels , Brakes , may be Jake Lewis could bring back that Moto-2 bike he rode last year :niceone:

[Shaun Harris]

also different skill set, i think a referee needs to think like a racer, where a steward and clerk of the course needs to think of saftey, just a better system IMHO







I think to introduce a ref to the road race scene would be a very good idea.




It is looking like this case will need to go to the Sports tribunal to help eradicate any future errors of judgement also to high light to the powers that be how to do there rolls proffessionally/accurately in the future.

This case has really hit the nail on the head of how certain people are NOT operating within there rolls proffessionaly at all sadly to say and yet they take these rolls on?

Am I correct in thinking that any one can pay the $ 500-00 and take a case to the sports tribunal or in this case would you have to be either a current MNZ member or a direct competitor team owner involved in this case. The cupboards need a major spring cleaning asap! Negative actions alone are bringing the sport into disrepute and this must stop.

Sorry again to the young rider involved in this case, but as you were not the owner nor the builder of the bike, I think it is best for you that it be proven your bike was/is illegal to put the focus on the owner of it, and to scare other people away from doing the same thing.

At the end of all this, I may actually thank the man behind all this grief, as it has finally broken the camels back and shown so many bad areas in the management of our sport, and as this sport is the only thing in life I love next to my family and friends ( Haha Yes I really do have some some where) , I will not be sitting down and shutting up and letting it just pass us by.

[Shaun Harris]

Apology accepted Sean , no thanks needed , I did stuff because I wanted too , not to make a buck. (Violin Playing I hear :rolleyes:)





Respect Ian. And I know you have always done what you do out of passion and nothing to do with trying to make money haha as you would have failed in that dept

[Shaun Harris]

There has been soooo many issues , I think you can't fix it within MNZ -too much red tape and politics. It is a shame because the racing as per normal has been great. Yep F1.F2 all the way imagine a trick 600. Nice wheels , Brakes , may be Jake Lewis could bring back that Moto-2 bike he rode last year :niceone:




Bring it on baby. The new series needs to be set up so they can also run raffles as a way to generate prize money again!!!!!!!!! and draw from gambling etc etc etc

[The Chow]

Respect Ian. And I know you have always done what you do out of passion and nothing to do with trying to make money haha as you would have failed in that dept

You dam right there regarding making money , must have missed that class at school. :laugh:

[Kickaha]

So with my grumpy attitude you refer to from 13 years ago ( Wow what a memory to drag back up just to be a key board hero) I achieved more tyre allocation for a whole class of 600 riders!!

Must re sharpen my grumpy skills and see if I can achieve any more possitives for the competitors

No more of a keyboard hero than you've been and your grumpy attitude has been going on for a lot longer than 13 years

What you did was to show people that you had no respect for the rules that were in place for that series and you want to call that a positive?

[Drew]

Seems to be a bit of the same three or four dudes sucking each other off here.

I will race at any meeting we are eligible, MNZ or not. Worked for the classics or post classics for a while, to break away like...Long term, haven't they started applying for MNZ permits again though?

[richban]

Oh and if you live in the South Island,HPE Engineering in Christchurch will do it for you by machining the cases,Very hard to detect and prove, $120 and they'll need your cases for around a week


What the hell. I am reading this as a negative post directed towards HPE. Is this your intention?


Any messing with engines. Is on the guy paying the bill. You can't expect suppliers to police your control classes for you.

[Drew]

What the hell. I am reading this as a negative post directed towards HPE. Is this your intention?


Any messing with engines. Is on the guy paying the bill. You can't expect suppliers to police your control classes for you.I don't read it that way, Billy even openly says in a later post the service is not the problem.

[Billy]

I don't read it that way, Billy even openly says in a later post the service is not the problem.

Yea na,I don't know how anybody worked out it was a slur against the business either,If anything it was a free ad,Still what would I know I only wrote it

[richban]

I don't read it that way, Billy even openly says in a later post the service is not the problem.

Well I hope not. Even mentioning a business's name in this thread is not a good idea. Just read the result on the MNZ site. Oh well.

[SWERVE]

It’s about time you heard the story from the other side of the fence. I believe the only people I have to answer too are my rider / my team and our sponsors. And that is the reason I am doing this…….. Because the rider in question has held his head up and coped with the whole appeal process with maturity way above his tender years. He was fully briefed on the situation and understood it as it stood. But this latest wave of “got away with it” “won on a technicality” is now taking its toll on him personally, far more than the original case. He knows how hard he had to ride to win and how much hard work went into it….. He knows it wasn’t a case of just opening the throttle and cruising away (far from it). I don’t give a rat’s arse what anybody thinks of me…… but when it effects the person I have devoted my life to for over 2 year and one of the most talented young riders we have seen for many years. I do care!
The question of “is the engine legal” was asked by all our sponsors and riders family at the beginning…and rightfully so in the circumstances! I gave them the same answer i am giving here today YES. The only person who knew it was, without ever asking the question was the rider.
Be in NO DOUBT if the bike was running such mods that have been alleged, I would have been the first to carry the can for it………… but it hasn’t and I wont.
The engine surfaces in his bike have NEVER been machined since it left Thailand/Japan or where ever it was built. The rebuild consisted of new OEM piston rings / inlet vales / gaskets & valve clearances which were all purchased through a Kawasaki agent in NZ. The only difference from when the current rider rode it last year and another rider rode it in 2012 is the exhaust can. And some replacement levers and added bling. It underwent the exact same tech checks as every other bike both this season and last.
I have now seen the full independent report carried out against specs provided from Kawasaki Japan and can say that those measurements have NO tolerance…….. Yes it surprised me too. But there is no +/- figure. The engine in question was exact to those measurements…….. How can that have been machined? It has only covered around 1800km and the surfaces didn’t even need cleaning when I rebuilt it.
Yes it has had a lot of time and money spent on it……. Best components available such as rear sets/levers/etc. Yes it has some unnecessary (in some people’s words) bling bits. All within the rules and looking the part isn’t a crime. Yes we do run a data logger on unofficial practice days and public test days……. And once again thought by some as not being in the spirit of things! Nothing to say we can’t in these circumstances. It is on public display…… unlike those in the pockets of riders leathers!!. Yes it gives us valuable info which we can use on race day….. But the rider still does the riding. Yes we are Guilty of using an on board camera…and like many others misinterpreted the rule.
I know this will mean nothing to many. It will evoke even further disgust/hatred and threats of physical harm…….. I’m neither worried nor frightened of it. But just take a long hard look at the effects it has on the young rider. My relationship with that rider his family and his sponsors is strong and true. Only we will decide which path the future takes for us.
IMHO the series was run better this year, somethings worked others didn’t. That’s called progress and development. Personally think strip downs and proper tech checks (and heaven forbid scrutineering) should take place all the time. Making that work and work fairly to all parties is something I don’t have an answer too.
Now here is my chance to start a rumour…………………… most of the rumours and statements that have been posted around this episode are in fact the truth or in fact very close to the truth in some cases. (pardon the pun) Just directed to the wrong people. There will be those who are very glad their bikes didn’t undergo the same scrutiny that our has. And just like the old days……….. The best riders are always at the front of the field….they are not always on the best bikes!. Happy to pass on the correct way to measure them if needed 
Im not going to get into an internet/KB war of words with any parties…………. I have said my piece
Thank you.

[Drew]

Well I hope not. Even mentioning a business's name in this thread is not a good idea. Just read the result on the MNZ site. Oh well.Bro, are you high?:laugh:

The business name being mentioned, was with no implication I can see. My initial response to reading it, was a quick stocktake of my bikes to see which one could benefit from having it done. Alas, the GL would likely just clip a valve if I lowered the head in any way. So I'm shit outa luck.:no:

[Drew]

Has anyone ever tried to put an eccentric gudgeon pin in a motor?

Be a bit hit and miss to locate the thing so ya didn't end up with it spinning and firing on low compression half the time, but it'd be missed in all but a very thorough inspection.

Just a random thought, been racking my brain something fierce trying to figure a method of cheating that would maybe get overlooked if a protest got lodged.

[richban]

Bro, are you high?:laugh:

The business name being mentioned, was with no implication I can see. My initial response to reading it, was a quick stocktake of my bikes to see which one could benefit from having it done. Alas, the GL would likely just clip a valve if I lowered the head in any way. So I'm shit outa luck.:no:

You know i'm not High. I have to race the bucket GP this weekend. Remember that other long bitchy thread about drug testing.

As far as this dispute goes. Well I feel for all involved. Especially Bailie. I really enjoyed watching him race the southern rounds. From what I saw he was fast coz he kept it pinned and rode the wheels of the bike. Well done. Look forward to watching the next 2 rounds.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Has anyone ever tried to put an eccentric gudgeon pin in a motor?

Be a bit hit and miss to locate the thing so ya didn't end up with it spinning and firing on low compression half the time, but it'd be missed in all but a very thorough inspection.

.

THat's the prob Bro. They do spin.

[Drew]

THat's the prob Bro. They do spin.I know they do, but that's not unsurmountable as far as problems go.

Biggest thing I can't figure out, is how to keep it looking stock and still get the thing through the slug and the rod both.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I know they do, but that's not unsurmountable as far as problems go.

Biggest thing I can't figure out, is how to keep it looking stock and still get the thing through the slug and the rod both.

Thoughts are like seeds. If you plant too many at the same time your brain will become overgrown.

[Drew]

Thoughts are like seeds. If you plant too many at the same time your brain will become overgrown.Any growth in my cranium, is more than welcome mate.:scratch:

[jellywrestler]

I know they do, but that's not unsurmountable as far as problems go.

Biggest thing I can't figure out, is how to keep it looking stock and still get the thing through the slug and the rod both.

be easier to bore it to max oversize which is in the rules.

[Drew]

be easier to bore it to max oversize which is in the rules.I'm just looking for higher compression, but max oversize and standard head would increase squish area I suppose. Is there an advantage to that on a four stroke?

[lostinflyz]

why is it the entire governance of our sport is done behind closed doors? Surely there should be public (or at least member accessible) information on the causes for the original exclusion and the subsequent notes, minutes or transcript of the hearing? This shit should be readily available for everyone to draw their own opinions (or at least understand the justification for the final decisions) but i have never once seen the details of any hearing, exclusion or meeting on racing matters, except for the AGM. The only time you see any sort of information is when the rules get updated.

There's just no facts in official form so how is anyone supposed to interpret what the fucks going on without hearing it second hand.

How anyone can come to bag Merv, Ballie, the MNZ team at the round or the appeal committee just baffles the hell out of me as for all i can see is not a single person has all the facts, minutes and details of the consideration, justifications and decisions taken...

[gammaguy]

I think to introduce a ref to the road race scene would be a very good idea.




It is looking like this case will need to go to the Sports tribunal to help eradicate any future errors of judgement also to high light to the powers that be how to do there rolls proffessionally/accurately in the future.

This case has really hit the nail on the head of how certain people are NOT operating within there rolls proffessionaly at all sadly to say and yet they take these rolls on?

Am I correct in thinking that any one can pay the $ 500-00 and take a case to the sports tribunal or in this case would you have to be either a current MNZ member or a direct competitor team owner involved in this case. The cupboards need a major spring cleaning asap! Negative actions alone are bringing the sport into disrepute and this must stop.

Sorry again to the young rider involved in this case, but as you were not the owner nor the builder of the bike, I think it is best for you that it be proven your bike was/is illegal to put the focus on the owner of it, and to scare other people away from doing the same thing.

At the end of all this, I may actually thank the man behind all this grief, as it has finally broken the camels back and shown so many bad areas in the management of our sport, and as this sport is the only thing in life I love next to my family and friends ( Haha Yes I really do have some some where) , I will not be sitting down and shutting up and letting it just pass us by.


aaaagh

after tweny plus pages of this I cant stand it any more

its ROLES

Not ROLLS

As you were Chap:Police:

[gammaguy]

I'm just looking for higher compression, but max oversize and standard head would increase squish area I suppose. Is there an advantage to that on a four stroke?


That rule has possibly been mainly overtaken by technology,as most modern 2T and,say for arguments sake,the EX250J(Ninja 250R) do not have oversize pistons available

[jellywrestler]

That rule has possibly been mainly overtaken by technology,as most modern 2T and,say for arguments sake,the EX250J(Ninja 250R) do not have oversize pistons available

2. Only OEM engine parts for the homologated model may be fitted - In the
case of overboring, only oversizes listed as genuine options in the
manufacturers partsbook for the homologated model may be used. only
gaskets of the standard thickness may be used


silly me read it as pistons, that'll learn me for interpreting the rulz my own way!!

[jellywrestler]

aaaagh

after tweny plus pages of this I cant stand it any more

its ROLES

Not ROLLS

As you were Chap:Police:

BTW it's twenty not tweny

[quickbuck]

2. Only OEM engine parts for the homologated model may be fitted - In the

case of overboring, only oversizes listed as genuine options in the

manufacturers partsbook for the homologated model may be used. only

gaskets of the standard thickness may be used





silly me read it as pistons, that'll learn me for interpreting the rulz my own way!!




Silly you indeed... You forgot it is 250 Production and not Ninja 250R cup.....





Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

[quickbuck]

Okay, one confession I will have to make is that I have used an onboard camera for many races.... Not of late as I keep smashing them! Why? Well quite simply when I read the rules for the bike I was distracted and focused on Data Loggers. I could see the reason for not having them, then proceeded to forget about ALL recording devices..... As the error in my ways have been pointed out I will not run a camera on the bike again at an MNZ event.




Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

[RobGassit]

Okay, one confession I will have to make is that I have used an onboard camera for many races.... Not of late as I keep smashing them! Why? Well quite simply when I read the rules for the bike I was distracted and focused on Data Loggers. I could see the reason for not having them, then proceeded to forget about ALL recording devices..... As the error in my ways have been pointed out I will not run a camera on the bike again at an MNZ event.
Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

You do realise there will have to be a group kicking behind the scrutineering shed for your sins.

[Billy]

why is it the entire governance of our sport is done behind closed doors? Surely there should be public (or at least member accessible) information on the causes for the original exclusion and the subsequent notes, minutes or transcript of the hearing? This shit should be readily available for everyone to draw their own opinions (or at least understand the justification for the final decisions) but i have never once seen the details of any hearing, exclusion or meeting on racing matters, except for the AGM. The only time you see any sort of information is when the rules get updated.

There's just no facts in official form so how is anyone supposed to interpret what the fucks going on without hearing it second hand.

How anyone can come to bag Merv, Ballie, the MNZ team at the round or the appeal committee just baffles the hell out of me as for all i can see is not a single person has all the facts, minutes and details of the consideration, justifications and decisions taken...

I have every authorised action and ALL discussions with the machine owner,The steward and the person authorised by MNZ to take measuremnets and comparisons,I also have electronic conversations between myself and the machine owner that prove categorically that he has been less than truthful in regards to the way MNZ handled this from the outset and that he was less than co operative about having the machine stripped and checked,Furthermore,How or why did a machine,Asked to be delivered to the authorised dealer instructed by the MNZ steward end up at another motorcycle shop after being tampered with and parts removed AND being run on a dyno to try and prove the machine had low horsepower and therefore did not need to be checked,Surely that is reason for exclusion on its own????,Neither was the machine released from the authorised agent by the steward responsible for having it delivered there AND it wouldn't have been released by him as he had further areas he wanted looked at,In regard to Mr Swerves ramblings above,Any measurements carried out after the machine was removed are irrelevant and can not/Should not be taken into consideration either before.After or during ANY investigation as they were not overseen by ANY MNZ official or authorised agent therefore the integrity of such measurements would clearly be jeopardised,Also his statement above is misleading and an obvious reason this team have found themselves is the position they have,The statement re "Dataloggers" being used on unofficial test days is incorrect,ANY test day run under an MNZ permit,As was the case at Levels,Is bound by the rules and regulations in the M.O.M.S,But lets be clear here,Whatever happens from here on in,Is NOT about the competitor,The whole point now is to test and have rectified any shortcomings in the appeal process applied by MNZ as a number of stewards and other officials have long been dissatisfied and bewildered at some of the decisions made,End of really,Let the rider get on with the job at hand and leave him out of it,In reply to your question re the release of information in these cases,You would need to talk to the office manager at MNZ to get an infinite answer.

[SS90]

I have every authorised action and ALL discussions with the machine owner,The steward and the person authorised by MNZ to take measuremnets and comparisons,I also have electronic conversations between myself and the machine owner that prove categorically that he has been less than truthful in regards to the way MNZ handled this from the outset and that he was less than co operative about having the machine stripped and checked,Furthermore,How or why did a machine,Asked to be delivered to the authorised dealer instructed by the MNZ steward end up at another motorcycle shop after being tampered with and parts removed AND being run on a dyno to try and prove the machine had low horsepower and therefore did not need to be checked,Surely that is reason for exclusion on its own????,Neither was the machine released from the authorised agent by the steward responsible for having it delivered there AND it wouldn't have been released by him as he had further areas he wanted looked at,In regard to Mr Swerves ramblings above,Any measurements carried out after the machine was removed are irrelevant and can not/Should not be taken into consideration either before.After or during ANY investigation as they were not overseen by ANY MNZ official or authorised agent therefore the integrity of such measurements would clearly be jeopardised,Also his statement above is misleading and an obvious reason this team have found themselves is the position they have,The statement re "Dataloggers" being used on unofficial test days is incorrect,ANY test day run under an MNZ permit,As was the case at Levels,Is bound by the rules and regulations in the M.O.M.S,But lets be clear here,Whatever happens from here on in,Is NOT about the competitor,The whole point now is to test and have rectified any shortcomings in the appeal process applied by MNZ as a number of stewards and other officials have long been dissatisfied and bewildered at some of the decisions made,End of really,Let the rider get on with the job at hand and leave him out of it,In reply to your question re the release of information in these cases,You would need to talk to the office manager at MNZ to get an infinite answer.

This all makes perfect sense, rather than getting bound up in the past, it is a better plan of attack to make sure it doesn't happen again..... (it is far easier to accept if you are not competing in the class of course)

Over here in a particular control class, the first 3 bikes are dynoed immediately after the race...... You can whiffle on all you like about "oh I don't believe the dyno results", but everyone accepts the recorded power. End of story. You cheat. You are excluded. Easy.

I can't remember seeing one fail...... But I have seen cheating engines... That suggests that in this instance, the leaders don't cheat?

It seems clear to me that the young rider involved is (possibly) the biggest victim of all, which would be a real tragedy, if the guy that built he engine put his hand up now, then this youngster will never be able to shake the fact that he rode a cheater..... as it stands, there is someone casting doubt on it, and perhaps it is better left at that.

[The Chow]

This all makes perfect sense, rather than getting bound up in the past, it is a better plan of attack to make sure it doesn't happen again..... (it is far easier to accept if you are not competing in the class of course)

Over here in a particular control class, the first 3 bikes are dynoed immediately after the race...... You can whiffle on all you like about "oh I don't believe the dyno results", but everyone accepts the recorded power. End of story. You cheat. You are excluded. Easy.

I can't remember seeing one fail...... But I have seen cheating engines... That suggests that in this instance, the leaders don't cheat?

It seems clear to me that the young rider involved is (possibly) the biggest victim of all, which would be a real tragedy, if the guy that built he engine put his hand up now, then this youngster will never be able to shake the fact that he rode a cheater..... as it stands, there is someone casting doubt on it, and perhaps it is better left at that.

The rider should look ahead. now Good luck to him . As for the future regarding anything else I guess the jury is out. In my rant yesterday it wasn't just about this particular situation but previous episodes in the sport that happen , this just has just stirred things up.

[Shaun Harris]

Swerve, Post no 1 is your post!

Post no 347 is your post

You are the one that drags the rider into and back into this shit situation time and again.

to quote you from post No 347

SWERVE's Avatar SWERVE SWERVE is offline
Creating future champions


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30th November 2008 - 10:12
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NZSBK Round 2 - dispute
STATEMENT.
*This has been released via my personal FB page as the team page also caters for other riders who are in no way involved in this dispute.*
This statement has been held until we received official notification from MNZ. This was received by the participant at approx. 11.00am on Sat 18/01/14.


"As stated in Rule 7.2 we have the right to appeal. And if not satisfied with the appeal have the right to take it to the NZ Sports dispute tribunal"

It may take 12 -24 months but I guarantee you it WILL be going to the sports dispute tribunal and you do not need to be a MNZ member or the team/rider involved to take this path, you have to be a person effected by the decision! Anyone that has a passion for motorcycle racing that does not agree with the decision IS effected by it.

I have already suggested what is the write thing for an adult to do in this case which I know you have read.

You bought all this to a public forum Swerve here and face book, deal with the back lash of your actions buddy.

[rastus]

You do realise there will have to be a group kicking behind the scrutineering shed for your sins.


What about all the riders that Jim Tuckerman either uses their footage or puts one of his cameras on their bikes so he can have the footage for t.v. Who gets the kicking behind the shed. Rider of MR T?

[budda]

What about all the riders that Jim Tuckerman either uses their footage or puts one of his cameras on their bikes so he can have the footage for t.v. Who gets the kicking behind the shed. Rider of MR T?

600's and Supers aren't eligible for 250 Production - although some apparently believe otherwise

[Shaun Harris]

What about all the riders that Jim Tuckerman either uses their footage or puts one of his cameras on their bikes so he can have the footage for t.v. Who gets the kicking behind the shed. Rider of MR T?



That is called MARKETING the sport in a semi proffessional way I think

[ellipsis]

Swerve's latest post had as much truth to the matter as the posts from a few who disagree and vehemently, deny his integrity...if a whole group of people are agreeing with one party and another are saying the opposite then the rules are fucked, were from the beginning and are in need of clarification, or writing correctly...a bit of obfuscating going on here, mixed with petulance and maybe an epiphany thrown in...but I'm sure ditching one group of eggs for another is just what the sport needs...not...

Why don't the Presidents of all the Road Racing Clubs organise a chat...we have the technology... and discuss the repercussions, liabilities and possibilities or improbabilities...then talk to their members and ask what they want, after all, they are the ones who prop up, put up with all this shit.

We definitely dont need JT, or his wife or Billy or Boards or has beens, or really dedicated, but with know idea, good cunts to run the show. As far as the Nationals go...that would be down to what the girls and boys who pay for the SPORT to actually be a sport, to decide.

It's not exactly a nationals where the winner can do much more than hope to retain their position next year...cool for a very small number...the sport has as much coverage nationwide as cue tv and about as many people who dont ride but give as much a fuck, as those involved in the Golden Shears...

When are people going to pull their heads out of their arseholes and realise how silly we all are, how much fun, this shit is and stop pretending "THEY" are so fucking important.

If you want to make this an us or them, or a north or south, or a we are right and you are wrong situation...cool...just tell those who want to race their 60, 50, 40, 30 or 20 year old bike with their mates, and laugh, and continue the sport, about your big fucking ideas. I'm sure that 85% of them couldn't give a fuck.

Robert Taylor, although probably at risk of dieing if he came to one of my dinner parties, and not through food poisoning, has had the best idea I have heard of, as a real class, for those who want to spend a few bucks.

These are only the thoughts and aspersions of a person who has been involved in our sport in some way, for most of his life.

You Presidents of clubs out there, get your shit together and talk to your members, (that's what secretaries are for), (and mailing lists). Shaun, I suggest you talk to these Presidents with your legitimate and well thought out proposals.:blink:

I can tell you all now, meetings will be going on and, with less angst and more proficiently, without the pressures of big brother, who is really not much more than a nagging aunty, and who usually fronts with less acumen than Arnie Schwazenegger but flexing all the muscle, well after you are all kissed goodbye...sad though, that it has to be this way...just human mixed with the added spice of 'kiwi' thrown in...Insurance liability is just insurance liability, and a competitive market...

[Shaun Harris]

Who can awnser these question's direct on here for me please


1) What is the naming write sponsors name for the current NZ Champs


2) How much did our sponsorship committee recieve for this naming write title


3) where and what was this money spent on, exact details if possible please


There is a method to my madness

[budda]

Who can awnser these question's direct on here for me please


1) What is the naming write sponsors name for the current NZ Champs


2) How much did our sponsorship committee recieve for this naming write title


3) where and what was this money spent on, exact details if possible please


There is a method to my madness

NOT taking the piss or deliberately being a dick Shaun, but I don't think anyone with current, correct info on commercially confidential issues would be stupid enough to post it on here

I sure you HAVE a plan in mind, suggest you contact either Paul S or Jim T directly, so you can get all the information you need, rather than just what you've asked for mate

[oyster]

Don't mess with ellipsis. He lives in the boonies, has had two days of gale force winds, heavy rain, flooding and no power. Yet look at him go!!!!

[Billy]

Don't mess with ellipsis. He lives in the boonies, has had two days of gale force winds, heavy rain, flooding and no power. Yet look at him go!!!!

Yip,

Be scary if he knew what he was talking about,Unfortunately like most,He only retains the info that suits him.

Could have shortened up his post signifcantly just by saying him and his mates are going to take their toys and play by themselves and that in his opinion MNZ are just a bunch of bullies

[Drew]

I must have missed something because a thread about a single dispute and it's highlighting of a shortfall in the current system, has turned into a bunch of guys saying we should walk away from the body who are trying to fix the shortfall.

Shouldn't we get pissed off and want to walk away, when this isn't done? When a problem is identified, and ignored like.

What is also funny, is that a lot of you blokes who 'know how it should be', are the same as many others who have been on the committee and done nothing but disrupt and confuse issue. Caused countless nightmares, and generally ended up being told to fuck up/off.

Passion tends to be very fucking fleeting, when any sort of bureaucracy is involved. Do you all realise that it's not that easy to change a legal entity? Start over ya say? One, just one of you write up an overview of the new governing body. Something prospective participants/members can mull over and get behind.

Don't half arse it, focusing on one thing in particular because other stuff is too hard or out of your area of experience. Essentially, write a charter for this new club/organisation.

Bet you'll change your fucken tunes if you actually try and do that.

[scrivy]

Bet you'll change your fucken tunes if you actually try and do that.

I nominate DREW as its patron..... :headbang::niceone:

:rolleyes::dodge::whistle::brick::facepalm::shutup ::corn:

[Shaun Harris]

NOT taking the piss or deliberately being a dick Shaun, but I don't think anyone with current, correct info on commercially confidential issues would be stupid enough to post it on here

I sure you HAVE a plan in mind, suggest you contact either Paul S or Jim T directly, so you can get all the information you need, rather than just what you've asked for mate






Good call Cheers.

[Shaun Harris]

Letter/plan/idea I wrote in 2005 or 6 I think from memory, and posted out to ALL MNZ Road race licence holders at that time>

Road Racing promoter/coordinator

Please take the time to read and respond. Your comments are extremely important and without your feedback it makes it hard to make changes that will benefit our racing and enhance the future of our sport!

I am proposing the motorcycle fraternity Employ our own full time promoter/coordinator, until all responses are returned and sifted through the full job description is not possible to outline here but I will include what I would like to see this person doing.

Job Description

Coordination of all clubs for the race format,and information for riders and communication with MNZ office.
Re Writing the rules.
Promotional work with the media, series sponsors,importers,clubs,MNZ etc.
Negotiations for group bulk purchases for race products making our purchase price lower and already giving us a ROI ( return on investment)- will work for some but not others with full finance backing.

Rome was not built in a day and neither will this be, that is why I started doing this now because there will be a few issues to arrange to make this happen.

WHO TO EMPLOY

I suggest that we nominate 2 rider reps ( Referees) from each class and let this group go through all the resumes too make the choice.

How to pay this person

This is where I need you all to think long and hard about our racing and our sport and what it means to you the competitor/employer

I propose that we all invest $250-00 into this campaign into a holding account, I STILL have a company that will invest $5000-00 into this account if I can secure 100 licence holders to invest in there own passion/future. $250-00 dollars devided by 365 days = .69 cents PER DAY!!!!!!!!!

Here is what we have if this could be arranged.

100 Riders x $250-00 = $25-000 + $5000-00 from UNNAMED company = $30-000

$30-000 paid as a base salary to the coordinator with an agreed % of additional funds bought in from sponsors, this system will allow this person to go and work very hard to grow our sport and top up there salary very well I think.

I realise this may seem to simple but some of the best scemes in the world to date are simple and succesfull, there is no need for this to be difficult.


PLEASE PLEASE take your time to think this through fully before hitting the keys and replying. If this had happened back when I first drafted this plan, we would not be where we are now, so it is up to all of you the owners of our sport to make the required changes to get our sport back on a healthy level again.


# I will reply to questions that I have the awnsers to as soon as I can, or will find the awnsers and reply when I have them, but again please remember this is an idea I thought about for a long time before acting on it, as I could see way back then that we were heading down a path of destruction.

I see this taking at least 12 months to organise proffessionaly, and IF we could nominate ONE WEB SITE and a page for each class on that web site as well as a page for the punters to post in there idea's questions suggestions questions , that make it a lot easier to coordinate, and would like to see people posting in it with there Full real name and or MNZ Licence number.

[FROSTY]

Just to clarify for a really stupid old bloke. These championships/club series -when did they start to pay the winners thousands of dollars for winning etc?
For fuck sake you lot this is soposed to be FUN.
Sorry guys but all this politicking is doing my head in.

[Crasherfromwayback]

For fuck sake you lot this is soposed to be FUN.
Sorry guys but all this politicking is doing my head in.

Whilst that is true...you're obviously forgetting a lot of people have invested a LOT of money in their racing...they tend to take that pretty seriously.

[FROSTY]

Whilst that is true...you're obviously forgetting a lot of people have invested a LOT of money in their racing...they tend to take that pretty seriously.
To gain WHAT? a plastic trophy worth $25
hey don't get me wrong -I take racing VERY seriously but why all the politicking.

[Crasherfromwayback]

To gain WHAT? a plastic trophy worth $25
.

Well I guess unless you've raced at national level and won something it's a little hard to understand.

[FROSTY]

Well I guess unless you've raced at national level and won something it's a little hard to understand.
LIKE i SAID -- for what--to gain a little plastic trophy worth $25.00
Raced at national level -Yep done it a few times
Won a few $25.00 trophys from bike racing --Yep done it.
Mon I think you are missing my point. With the exception of a VERY few young guys who has asperations of international careers we are all in this sport because we love it. We love the racing and we all love to win. THAT is why we keep coming back.
But the aim is a sticker on the front of our bike for a season-the no 1 and a trophy.
So cheating gains you --a $25 plastic trophy.

[jellywrestler]

LIKE i SAID -- for what--to gain a little plastic trophy worth $25.00
if this is the only thing holding people back i'm happy to provide $200 pewter trophies if you can guarantee the feilds will double. I'll even do a trophy for passengers, as most seem to think they're didn't earn one so don't give one out for some reason.?

[Drew]

I'll even do a trophy for passengers, as most seem to think they're didn't earn one so don't give one out for some reason.?
They get a nice medal though.

[scrivy]

They get a nice medal though.

Will they issue them retrospectively.......????

[FROSTY]

Will they issue them retrospectively.......????
or supply a chest to pin them on

[scrivy]

or supply a chest to pin them on

Who needs a chest unless ya playing with nipples.......... :drool: