NZSBK Round 2 - dispute

[SWERVE]

STATEMENT.
*This has been released via my personal FB page as the team page also caters for other riders who are in no way involved in this dispute.*
This statement has been held until we received official notification from MNZ. This was received by the participant at approx. 11.00am on Sat 18/01/14.

Our motorcycle used in NZSBK 2014 @ Levels raceway last weekend was submitted for inspection at Norjo motorcycles in ChCh on Monday 13/01/14 as requested by MNZ. The engine was sealed at the track.
Proir to inspection and while still sealed, it was independantly dyno tested @ Honda Country in Ashburton. We have been informed by email that it has failed tech inspection and that all points from Rd 2 & Alan Ramage memorial event have been deducted.
As stated in Rule 7.2 we have the right to appeal. And if not satisfied with the appeal have the right to take it to the NZ Sports dispute tribunal.
At this stage we have not seen the report on what has alledgedly been found. We have been informed that this has been sent via mail.

*I will NOT be commenting on this matter on any social network. All correspondence on this matter and copies of all social media conversations regarding to this matter will be documented and passed to my legal representative.

I urge you all to NOT contact or attack the young rider in question as his involvement or riding ability is NOT the matter in dispute. A further statement will be issued upon receipt of the written report and after consultation with my legal representative.

I fully co-operated with all MNZ requests and will continue this process using the official channels.

* as stated all conversations will be documented and passed on*

[mr bucketracer]

Hi , i'm taking it had more HP than it should . what kind of bike was it ? don't need to answer if you don't want to

[Shaun Harris]

Hi , i'm taking it had more HP than it should . what kind of bike was it ? don't need to answer if you don't want to




He said in his post



"
*I will NOT be commenting on this matter on any social network. All correspondence on this matter and copies of all social media conversations regarding to this matter will be documented and passed to my legal representative."

[Shaun Harris]

Huge bummer IF it turns out the bike was not elligble and would be intersting to see the dyno results of some of the other bikes. The rider had higher corner speed and better breaking than the others at this round as the race vids from Ctas proove.

[mr bucketracer]

He said in his post



"
*I will NOT be commenting on this matter on any social network. All correspondence on this matter and copies of all social media conversations regarding to this matter will be documented and passed to my legal representative."can't see the make of bike or class what it was in which the bike would tell me . like to know the make of dyno as well.. taking it as a 250 ?

[Shaun Harris]

can't see the make of bike or class what it was in which the bike would tell me . like to know the make of dyno as well.. taking it as a 250 ?











Not up to me too say mate, as once you are charged with some thing ( Kinda like this) it is very ffiiiiin hard to clear your name from peoples memories, and especially with the internet. If there is an issue with the bike, ALL must remember it takes a Rider and Mechanic to race, and I am sure the rider in question is not his own bike builder, just the rider.

[bigreddog]

Not up to me too say mate, as once you are charged with some thing ( Kinda like this) it is very ffiiiiin hard to clear your name from peoples memories, and especially with the internet. If there is an issue with the bike, ALL must remember it takes a Rider and Mechanic to race, and I am sure the rider in question is not his own bike builder, just the rider.

Bloody well said, Shaun.

[Shaun Harris]

Bloody well said, Shaun.











I just hope the internet warriors do not go searching and start posting names etc, just let it take its natural course and leave the rider be PLEASE.

[bigreddog]

I just hope the internet warriors do not go searching and start posting names etc, just let it take its natural course and leave the rider be PLEASE.

Yes we all have a responsibility to leave the young fella alone...lets not risk losing his undoubted talent from our sport.

[Shaun Harris]

Yes we all have a responsibility to leave the young fella alone...lets not risk losing his undoubted talent from our sport.





exactualy, it too easy to muck with a young persons mind these days

[Shaun Harris]

I have been thinking about this scenario long and hard. NUMBERS speak for them self on Dyno's !!!!!! This could be another one of those fuked up situations that ends up COSTING MNZ ( US) a shit load of money. Lawyers etc etc etc.


Put a stop watch on corner speed alone of the rider and also do the same with break points and corner entry ( creating your apex points for reference)

The numbers again speak for them self!

Would love to see the actuall protest form that started all this shit to see who put it in and based on what.

[Grumph]

I have been thinking about this scenario long and hard. NUMBERS speak for them self on Dyno's !!!!!! This could be another one of those fuked up situations that ends up COSTING MNZ ( US) a shit load of money. Lawyers etc etc etc.


Put a stop watch on corner speed alone of the rider and also do the same with break points and corner entry ( creating your apex points for reference)

The numbers again speak for them self!

Would love to see the actuall protest form that started all this shit to see who put it in and based on what.

Yeah, I would like to see that too.....the dyno test interests me though - as far as i know there's no requirement for one as there's no stated power limit or range in the regs....It has to have been volountary. The strip down is the only ground for exclusion IMO. And even then, if it's a mechanic's memory that this doesn't look right....The usual way used to be a simultaneous strip of a new one off the shop floor and direct comparison.

[roogazza]

Yeah, I would like to see that too.....the dyno test interests me though - as far as i know there's no requirement for one as there's no stated power limit or range in the regs....It has to have been volountary. The strip down is the only ground for exclusion IMO. And even then, if it's a mechanic's memory that this doesn't look right....The usual way used to be a simultaneous strip of a new one off the shop floor and direct comparison.

Ahhh production Racing! I'm getting misty eyed just thinking about it.

What used to happen was the offending bike would dissappear before the end of the meeting ! lol. :laugh:

[Shaun Harris]

mmmmmmm, the owner of the bike would have to be a very very stupid man to make it illegal and give it too someone with such huge talent and watch and not expect to be protested, and I am sure the owner is not stupid, as the owner must have agreed to having his bike Dyno'd. Mass produced units can be different, get any Manufacturers bike and dyno a few of them, the numbers will all be different.

Having this motor in question inspected by a PRFFESSIONAL MOTOR BUILDER who can do all the measurements technically correct is the only way forward in my opinion, just like how it used to be done with Cam shafts etc.

will be very interesting to see the final report on all this.

[SWERVE]

STATEMENT - At 8.30 on Sunday 19th Jan 2014 MNZ officially announced the expulsion of the accused rider from points gained at Rd 2 NZSBK 2014. I would like everyone to know that we have NOT yet received an reasoning as to why tech was failed and no mention of the fact there is an appeal procedure. Seems like the trial has taken place without the accused being present or privy to the prosecution evidence. If this is the normal procedure in such matters it needs a serious overhaul/revision. It is OUTRAGEOUS behaviour from our governing body.

[CHOPPA]

Its guilty until proven innocent im afraid

[scrivy]

mmmmmmm, the owner of the bike would have to be a very very stupid man to make it illegal and give it too someone with such huge talent and watch and not expect to be protested, and I am sure the owner is not stupid, as the owner must have agreed to having his bike Dyno'd. Mass produced units can be different, get any Manufacturers bike and dyno a few of them, the numbers will all be different.

Having this motor in question inspected by a PRFFESSIONAL MOTOR BUILDER who can do all the measurements technically correct is the only way forward in my opinion, just like how it used to be done with Cam shafts etc.

will be very interesting to see the final report on all this.

Ummmm..... Have I mis-read or missed sumpin somewhere?
Were there other tests of the same type of bikes done on the same dyno?? I know from my own experience with dynos that they all give totally different results!!

[Grumph]

STATEMENT - At 8.30 on Sunday 19th Jan 2014 MNZ officially announced the expulsion of the accused rider from points gained at Rd 2 NZSBK 2014. I would like everyone to know that we have NOT yet received an reasoning as to why tech was failed and no mention of the fact there is an appeal procedure. Seems like the trial has taken place without the accused being present or privy to the prosecution evidence. If this is the normal procedure in such matters it needs a serious overhaul/revision. It is OUTRAGEOUS behaviour from our governing body.

I agree...but it seems normal now...

Don't give up hope - and keep racing under appeal. One situation I can quote - Some time back now but still a precedent - was when we (including me as a machine examiner) found a ported RGV. Immediate disqualification. On appeal, reinstated as Suzuki NZ stated unequivocably that it would have made no difference to the performance...despite any port mods being absolutely illegal.....

Best thing you can do is keep kawasaki NZ in the loop - especially if as far as you know there's nothing illegal in the motor....

[Shaun Harris]

Ummmm..... Have I mis-read or missed sumpin somewhere?
Were there other tests of the same type of bikes done on the same dyno?? I know from my own experience with dynos that they all give totally different results!!




Same dyno, same day, same operator. I will leave it that for now Scrivy.

[Shaun Harris]

Its guilty until proven innocent im afraid






sure is, and now I see a post on face book a world wide media outlet Naming the rider without the full appeal process being completed, absolutely fuckin bullshit.

I am hanging out to see the Dyno figures of both bikes released to the public, and do not give a rats arse if one of them had been tinkered with, the DYNO figures will show who had the fastest motor technically- and that comment is NOT say either were cheating, just the fact that one put out a tad more than the other on the Dyno.

[jellywrestler]

sure is, and now I see a post on face book a world wide media outlet Naming the rider without the full appeal process being completed, absolutely fuckin bullshit.

unfortunately that was a neccesary step as world wide attention was being drawn on other competitors not involved so people were jumping to conclusions, .

[Shaun Harris]

unfortunately that was a neccesary step as world wide attention was being drawn on other competitors not involved so people were jumping to conclusions, .





Mate, can you show me links to where this was happening as you say on the world wide scene? I have not seen it on any web sites world wide?

Yes Im a firey GINGA, but will always stand up and fight for people if I think the process is wrong.

I have been told certain things by certain people that have my trust at this stage, hence my actions with this.

[scrivy]

Same dyno, same day, same operator. I will leave it that for now Scrivy.

No worries. Just didn't read anywhere that other competitors were subjected to the same dyno at the same time to get a control/base line.

[Shaun Harris]

Hi Team, copy email sent to the Road Racing commisioner.

I am writing this with reference to the current case of ---------------------------

I am hopeing you will see my logic in this out of the best interests for the sport and any young up and coming rider now and in the future.

Where are rider such as ------ is excluded from a meeting for explisitlly a machine that does not comply with the regulations, I believe the TEAM OWNER should be excluded from the MNZ society for a minumim period of 12 months!

HOW TO CONTROL THIS

As a person under the legal age of 16 cannot sign a legal contract, any rider under the age of 18 must be entered on there own MNZ licence number as well as a MNZ Licenced TEAM OWNER MEMBER!

The point to this is try and stop the ( Lets say rule stretchings) that goes on with the good will of dads and sponsors.

My wording may be messy, but I am sure this can be re worded to fit the bill of my opinion.

WHY

----- and many many other young riders DO NOT TUNE/MAINTANE nor own the bikes they are racing and fall victims to so called good will sponsors. They totally trust and respect there team owner sponsor.



PENALTY FOR Team owner MNZ ENTRANT

The team entrant get the full minimum penalty of 12 months.

Taking into consideration the above facts re age and who does what in a team, I feel that too disclude the rider from the event is more than enough punishment to a young rider for machine inellagable faults.
Dangerous poor actions by a rider does deserve a more harsher penalty though!


Best Regards
Shaun Harris
Mobile 0223210319
Int Mobile NZ (64) 223210319
Have a Fantastic day

[Crasherfromwayback]

Ahhh production Racing! I'm getting misty eyed just thinking about it.

What used to happen was the offending bike would dissappear before the end of the meeting ! lol. :laugh:

Lol. I reckon. A certain RGV250 didn't do the last points race at Manfeild in 1991.


STATEMENT - At 8.30 on Sunday 19th Jan 2014 MNZ officially announced the expulsion of the accused rider from points gained at Rd 2 NZSBK 2014. I would like everyone to know that we have NOT yet received an reasoning as to why tech was failed and no mention of the fact there is an appeal procedure. Seems like the trial has taken place without the accused being present or privy to the prosecution evidence. If this is the normal procedure in such matters it needs a serious overhaul/revision. It is OUTRAGEOUS behaviour from our governing body.

MNZ take it fair and square in the ass. Billy is the only decent chap I know that's been involved with them. I'm sure there are others...I've just not met them. So glad VMX does it's own thing.

[Billy]

STATEMENT - At 8.30 on Sunday 19th Jan 2014 MNZ officially announced the expulsion of the accused rider from points gained at Rd 2 NZSBK 2014. I would like everyone to know that we have NOT yet received an reasoning as to why tech was failed and no mention of the fact there is an appeal procedure. Seems like the trial has taken place without the accused being present or privy to the prosecution evidence. If this is the normal procedure in such matters it needs a serious overhaul/revision. It is OUTRAGEOUS behaviour from our governing body.

What a load of old rubbish Merv,

I informed you by telephone on the 16th January at 5.30pm that your machine had failed the inspection and I informed you at the same time the information I had received from those doing the inspection.....AND I called you back at around 10pm on the same night to inform you there would be no further contact with you by either the steward or myself as you are not the competitor,I also informed you in the second call that Baillie would be notified by email on the following day care of his father as he is still a minor,This took place at around 12pm on the 17th Jan and the hard copy was couriered the same afternoon,That email was opened on Saturday morning at around 8.30 am I believe,Well over 24 hours before the release was made naming the competitor in question,Despite you informing me at 11.43am on Saturday the 18th Jan that nobody had received notification,You retracted that when I informed you at 1pm on the same day that the office manager at MNZ had confirmed the email had been sent and opened.

In short,The statement was made due to not only Luke Burgess and Jake Lewis being approached by their sponsors in Europe,America and Australia,But also Phil London from WIL Sport who is sponsoring the trackdays Superstock 1000 and 600 machines in Europe for 2014 as well as 2 entrants in the EJC and has alot of time and money invested in promoting New Zealand motorcycle racers to the world,The last thing he needed was Jake being implicated,As you had confirmed too me via electronic communication that the confirmation of exclusion had been received,We were well within our rights to make the appropriate statement,Of course you know me well enough to know I have that communication on file.

[Billy]

Same dyno, same day, same operator. I will leave it that for now Scrivy.

More absolute rubbish,

Same dyno,Same operator....Different week and with Luke Burgess trying to find more horsepower after fitting a borrowed engine for round 2 and the other machine owner trying a last ditch effort at stopping his machine from being stripped and inspected after having his machine at home and 15 hours after the cam cover ONLY was sealed on a fuel injected bike.....Work it out for yourself,Its not rocket science

[Crasherfromwayback]

Dear oh dear...

[Pumba]

:corn:

This is getting good.

[merv]

OK so what was done to this bike and how much horsepower was gained?

[Hitcher]

*I will NOT be commenting on this matter on any social network.

So why are you trolling on this social media site? If your lawyer told you to keep quiet, you're not doing a particularly clever job.

[Billy]

OK so what was done to this bike and how much horsepower was gained?

I seriously doubt anybody is going to reply to this that is actually in the know as the period for appeal has not yet ended.

[roogazza]

Dear oh dear...
The World holds it's breath ! I don't think I can stand the suspense.
Imagine the headlines ?
Fuck it, Dorna have just rung !

[Shaun Harris]

More absolute rubbish,

Same dyno,Same operator....Different week and with Luke Burgess trying to find more horsepower after fitting a borrowed engine for round 2 and the other machine owner trying a last ditch effort at stopping his machine from being stripped and inspected after having his machine at home and 15 hours after the cam cover ONLY was sealed on a fuel injected bike.....Work it out for yourself,Its not rocket science














As explained to you Direct Billy, alas I was stupid enough to trust a mans word on these Dyno tests. Im glad you understand my intentions behing all this was out of direct interest for the young rider concerned.

Fair play to you and the team for running the show in a proffessional/productive manner.

Shaun Harris

[scrivy]

I used to race a 1600cc Hayabusa powered sidecar apparantely........ :bleh::weird:

Does that mean I can't race it at the worlds???? :baby::doh:

Stink................. :spanking:

[wayne]

why would you give the bike to a non competitor , for 15 hours ?

[mr bucketracer]

To this date i have never seen a bike shop apart from a dyno have any tools to check anything on a bike.

[merv]

I love these "I know it all but it's all secret so I'm not telling" threads. Poor gaz feel sorry for you not being able to stand the suspense.

[Robert Taylor]

As explained to you Direct Billy, alas I was stupid enough to trust a mans word on these Dyno tests. Im glad you understand my intentions behing all this was out of direct interest for the young rider concerned.

Fair play to you and the team for running the show in a proffessional/productive manner.

Shaun Harris

I just once want to see Billy dressed smartly, collar and tie and al that stuff

[Mental Trousers]

I just once want to see Billy dressed smartly, collar and tie and al that stuff

He'd look something like this I reckon


http://static.getkempt.com/photos/articles/MOTH_keef_crop.jpg

[nodrog]

He'd look something like this I reckon



careful, he looks pissed off

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lz9ezoHQwz1qeha6z.jpg

[Shaun Harris]

I just once want to see Billy dressed smartly, collar and tie and al that stuff















Hahahahaha in ya dreams

[Billy]

Hahahahaha in ya dreams

Get real pygmie...Ive gotten dressed up all fancy before...Twice in fact and the Judge was most impressed.

[jellywrestler]

I just once want to see Billy dressed smartly, collar and tie and al that stuff

Go to a Disco in Inglewood, there'll be dozens exactly as you've pictured him there, but none of them will have got up before lunchtime.

[jellywrestler]

Get real pygmie...Ive gotten dressed up all fancy before...Twice in fact and the Judge was most impressed.

and the Wife Impregnated?

[Shaun Harris]

Get real pygmie...Ive gotten dressed up all fancy before...Twice in fact and the Judge was most impressed.











haha it usually helps ae, well in the old days anyway

[Shaun Harris]

Go to a Disco in Inglewood, find a rugby team, and BINGO< all the homos will be there

[gammaguy]

Ahh 250 proddy

The actors and props have changed but the script is exactly the same

[Shaun Harris]

Ahh 250 proddy

The actors and props have changed but the script is exactly the same







not quite dude, young men were not fuked with back then, as they did there own work

[budda]

not quite dude, young men were not fuked with back then, as they did there own work

Rose-tinted backwards looking glasses wee man ??????

[Shaun Harris]

Rose-tinted backwards looking glasses wee man ??????










everything I do is backwards apparently, but you gotta start some where

[codgyoleracer]

not quite dude, young men were not fuked with back then, as they did there own work

The churches beg to differ

[Shaun Harris]

The churches beg to differ











Very sad and discusting unfortunately

[gammaguy]

I'm sure we can all name names and remember bikes on trailers and gone well before the last race,engine numbers filed off,stripdowns at the track finding tz instead of tzr,the list goes on

Oh and don't get someone started about ATAC superchargers........


Great times,good to see some things don't change

[gixerracer]

OK so what was done to this bike and how much horsepower was gained?

All this talk about Dyno numbers and horsepower is a load of shit. As Shaun will tell us so many ways in a engine to gain advantages with boosting overall Horsepower.
Cheating is cheating and if the young man didnt have any knowledge of it then the people involved need a high five in the face with a chair. Fact is the rider cops it so the rider needs to always be in the loop with ALL things going on with his racing!

[Shaun Harris]

All this talk about Dyno numbers and horsepower is a load of shit. As Shaun will tell us so many ways in a engine to gain advantages with boosting overall Horsepower.
Cheating is cheating and if the young man didnt have any knowledge of it then the people involved need a high five in the face with a chair. Fact is the rider cops it so the rider needs to always be in the loop with ALL things going on with his racing!







agreed re the high five mate, just a very self centered thing to do

[Kiwi Graham]

http://www.mnz.co.nz/news/news-detail/2014/02/26/bailie-perriton-appeal

[jasonu]

http://www.mnz.co.nz/news/news-detail/2014/02/26/bailie-perriton-appeal

Nice one. How much will MNZ be reimbursing the team for expenses incurred over this incorrect accusation?

[Pumba]

Nice one. How much will MNZ be reimbursing the team for expenses incurred over this incorrect accusation?

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::l augh::laugh:

Thanks for that joke. Today was going a bit slow

[Shaun Harris]

http://www.mnz.co.nz/news/news-detail/2014/02/26/bailie-perriton-appeal







Great for Ballie but not for the sport. I get it, it means when a motor is ruled to be run as per OEM, it actually means as long as it fits the messurement criteria, and re moving metel to achieve this is ok. WOW good work MNZ reps, just set a presedent for the future in a negative way

[quallman1234]

There is a word for that, blueprinting.
It is done in many other classes/forms of motorsport.

I am on neither side of this.

[Shaun Harris]

There is a word for that, blueprinting.
It is done in many other classes/forms of motorsport.

I am on neither side of this.





Exactually man, and Blueprinting is NOT as per OEM build spec.





One of the people involved in this decision, is the same person who deemed it fit for riders and passengers doing parade laps at Paeroa with out helmets, no logic in either of these cases

[Mental Trousers]

There's nothing wrong with blueprinting. It's a hell of a lot cheaper than buying a truck load of pistons/conrods/etc and going through them until you find the 4 that are light and match weights.

EDIT Sorry for a 250 twin that would be 2 pistons etc

[Shaun Harris]

There's nothing wrong with blueprinting.

ACCEPT IT IS CHEATING as it is no longer as per OEM


It's a hell of a lot cheaper than buying a truck load of pistons/conrods/etc and going through them until you find the 4 that are light and match weights.

EDIT Sorry for a 250 twin that would be 2 pistons etc





Fixed it for you

EDIT I fixed your fix - Shane

[Mental Trousers]

ACCEPT IT IS CHEATING as it is no longer as per OEM

That's the thing about the manufacturer specifying tolerances etc, they're saying if your piston (for example) is between x and y that's fine because the manufacturer supplies them within those dimensions. As long as you use the OEM supplied piston and stay within the dimensions specified it's not cheating.

Appendix I.2


Only OEM engine parts for the homologated model may be fitted - In the case of overboring, only oversizes listed as genuine options in the manufacturers partsbook for the homologated model may be used. only gaskets of the standard thickness may be used

[Hitcher]

ACCEPT IT IS CHEATING

Except it is cheating.

[JayRacer37]

Great for Ballie but not for the sport. I get it, it means when a motor is ruled to be run as per OEM, it actually means as long as it fits the messurement criteria, and re moving metel to achieve this is ok. WOW good work MNZ reps, just set a presedent for the future in a negative way


There is a word for that, blueprinting.
It is done in many other classes/forms of motorsport.

I am on neither side of this.

Damn, you beat me to it. Within tolerance is OEM, end of.




One of the people involved in this decision, is the same person who deemed it fit for riders and passengers doing parade laps at Paeroa with out helmets, no logic in either of these cases

Logic in both. What's the issue with a helmetless parade lap? Didn't see anybody screaming about it at Wanganui in the wet on slicks for most people, while some time was filled???

[Shaun Harris]

That's the thing about the manufacturer specifying tolerances etc, they're saying if your piston (for example) is between x and y that's fine because the manufacturer supplies them within those dimensions. As long as you use the OEM supplied piston and stay within the dimensions specified it's not cheating.

Appendix I.2



Thanks for the fix and re your above comment, OEM means as per supplied by the manufacturer, NOT METAL removed ( Blueprinting) to get it too stretch the tollerances Shane. The process of removing metal to obtain the big numbers from compression or what ever are cheating mate fact!

Take your time and read years of rule books as I have mate, that is another thing that is wrong with Road Racing in New Zealand, the rule book needs writing in a way that it is impossible to miss interpret or bend the wording to suit personell agenda;s, as in this case. Bailie is good enough without a screwed with bike.

[Shaun Harris]

Damn, you beat me to it. Within tolerance is OEM, end of.

Original Equipment Manufacturer, means the people that originally made it! so if it came in under compression tolerance numbers, there is NO sub clause that states you can remove metal to obtain these numbers, Rememberthe keys words in our rule book " Anything not mentioned must remain as per"



Logic in both. What's the issue with a helmetless parade lap? Didn't see anybody screaming about it at Wanganui in the wet on slicks for most people, while some time was filled???

The road race meetings are run under local law, ie must need a motorcycle licence, ( And if there is an incident involving injury the police will be involved) show me a road rule where it is legal to ride a motorbike on the roads without a helmet?

[JayRacer37]

The road race meetings are run under local law, ie must need a motorcycle licence, ( And if there is an incident involving injury the police will be involved) show me a road rule where it is legal to ride a motorbike on the roads without a helmet?

Soo....for years (and years and years) helmetless parade laps have been done at Wanganui, all without incident. This is something I am sure you have been involved in in the past, either yourself or your riders.

Do it once at Paeroa (as a thankyou to riders and spectators alike that had had the meeting cut short) and you and others have a problem with it. What's up with that!?

Further to the above, show me a road rule where you can do 200kph in a 50 zone? Or a road rule where it is mandatory to wear full leathers and a back protector? Or a road rule where you can ride a bike on slicks without headlights...etc etc

[jasonu]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::l augh::laugh:

Thanks for that joke. Today was going a bit slow

Yeah it was a joke mostly. If another competitor protests another on tech grounds and is found to be wrong AFAIK that competitor has to pay an amount of pingas to the one he protested. Isn't this situation the same or at least very similar?

[nodrog]

The road race meetings are run under local law, ie must need a motorcycle licence...

I thought that was only Paeroa as it is a State Highway? I don't think I have ever given, or been asked for Licence details for Wanganui.


.... show me a road rule where it is legal to ride a motorbike on the roads without a helmet?

What about the one where I am one of those Towel heads that can only wear a tea towel on my head cos the sacred cow said so. They don't have to wear a Helmet.

[merv]

Surely Shaun when there is a formal road closure the road rules don't apply and its like you are on private land. Otherwise similar to what Jay said using your logic the speed limit would be 50km/hr on the street circuits :brick:

[Shaun Harris]

Soo....for years (and years and years) helmetless parade laps have been done at Wanganui, all without incident. This is something I am sure you have been involved in in the past, either yourself or your riders.

Do it once at Paeroa (as a thankyou to riders and spectators alike that had had the meeting cut short) and you and others have a problem with it. What's up with that!?

Further to the above, show me a road rule where you can do 200kph in a 50 zone? Or a road rule where it is mandatory to wear full leathers and a back protector? Or a road rule where you can ride a bike on slicks without headlights...etc etc







Jay, I am sure if you were thinking in depth first, you would understand what this all about. Check out the facts re the law and involvement in injury related incidents mate.

Also re OEM, check this out

"NOTE:
All items not mentioned in the following articles must remain as originally produced
by the manufacturer, remain fitted and operational for that homologated model.
The parts and service manuals for the homologated models will be used as reference to
confirm standard specifications.
1. Twin and single cylinder four stroke engines from 200cc up to 250cc
standard engines.
2. Only OEM engine parts for the homologated model may be fitted - In the
case of overboring, only oversizes listed as genuine options in the
manufacturers partsbook for the homologated model may be used. only
gaskets of the standard thickness may be used.


So if you read the rule book correct and thouroughly and not so it suits just your own interpreation of it, NO METAL CAN BE REMOVED. even must use standard gasket dimensions. Tolerances are only givin to provide a base line for.

Who the hell is running this circus dude, even I can use google well enough to clarify engrish

[Shaun Harris]

Surely Shaun when there is a formal road closure the road rules don't apply and its like you are on private land. Otherwise similar to what Jay said using your logic the speed limit would be 50km/hr on the street circuits :brick:







Check the LAW Dude. Silly as it may be, the LAW is the LAW. and even a good smack on the head at 50KM/hr can do serious lasting damage, and we do not need the ACC nor the PC police jumping on us any more than they already do.

[wharfy]

Surely Shaun when there is a formal road closure the road rules don't apply and its like you are on private land. Otherwise similar to what Jay said using your logic the speed limit would be 50km/hr on the street circuits :brick:

I am not about to get into the legality of it but I think helmet-less parade laps should not be done - just sends the wrong message - Vic Club meetings you are not allowed to ride anywhere without a helmet - And for that person who saw me do it once (which I now regret just because it is really stupid) - smoking in the pits isn't allowed either :)

It is a very small risk - but one that can be mitigated (even with a helmet a 50 k crash "could" cause you severe injury ) not many bike racers are that good looking that they need to show their face anyway :)

[jellywrestler]

Soo....for years (and years and years) helmetless parade laps have been done at Wanganui, all without incident. This is something I am sure you have been involved in in the past, either yourself or your riders.

i don't know the answer but maybe it has something to do with Paeroa being on a state highway and under a different umbrella to the streets of wanganui or maybe wanganui had applied for it within their supplementary regulations as they have before and maybe Paeroa hadn't I think the parade laps are a good thing but as long as someones dotted their tees and crossed thir I's.
Why don't you ask the right people personally what the issue is?

[jellywrestler]

Yeah it was a joke mostly. If another competitor protests another on tech grounds and is found to be wrong AFAIK that competitor has to pay an amount of pingas to the one he protested. Isn't this situation the same or at least very similar?

this protest didn't come from a competitor though

[Shaun Harris]

this protest didn't come from a competitor though





correct, it was started with thourough machine elligabillity checks

[SWERVE]

*STATEMENT*
As the bike owner/builder and team manager I would like to thank everybody who has supported Bailie and the team throughout the appeal process. It has been a very tough time for all involved and those people have stuck by the team no matter what the setbacks. Due process has been carried out and executed in the correct manner in such circumstances. I will not name those supporting us as we have learnt that association can be very detrimental in such cases. However all those people will be thanked personally, and may put themselves forward if they wish.
Most praise must go to Bailie who has handled a very difficult situation with the upmost integrity and dignity. You are a very special young man Bailie…. The team and our sponsors believed in you and you returned that with your commitment and trust. Thank you.
As this will evoke many reactions, and comments for a day or so further details will be issued in due course.

Motorcycling New Zealand Inc
Official Release.
This appeal, arising from the decision to exclude Bailie from the NZSBK round 2 results was heard by the Motorcycling New Zealand Appeal committee on Friday 21st February 2014. The Appeal committee appointed Trevor Heaphy as chair with Errol Conaghan to record proceedings. Jim Doherty was the third member.

The previously submitted documentation for the appeal was presented by Damian Perriton, guardian of Bailie who was also present.

The meeting steward, Bernard Harnett was also present and called one witness, Dale Henley (Norjo Motors), who described the testing undertaken.

Information from the Kawasaki factory, received after the exclusion provided tolerances for the various engine component measurements.

This data showed that the measurements initially used to exclude Bailie are in fact within the manufacturers manufacturing tolerances for the model.

The appeal has been successful and Bailie will be reinstated in the results for the event.

MNZ Appeal Committee.

Trevor Heaphy (Chair)
Errol Conaghan (Secretary)
Jim Doherty

Note: A number of recommendations will be covered in a separate report.

[Crasherfromwayback]

*STATEMENT*

.

Congratulations mate. And best of luck to your young star. Sounds like he's a real weapon.

Pete

[Wingnut]

Nice one... Now back to the racing.....................

[Biggles08]

Firstly I must congratulate Bailie also for being a great role model in a very dificult situation. Other people on both sides of this controversy could learn a lot from this fella. Well done!!!

As for the ruling... I would say OEM means that...OEM. No modification is allowed to the production engine at all. Pretty clear cut and I would be very surprised if the appeal committee would uphold an appeal if the engine had been modified at all... even if it was to within the manufacturers specification. They haven't mentioned or not if they believed the engine was modified... so we can only presume they thought it was not.

I would be interested in hearing from the appeal board members regarding if they considered it was deemed acceptable because the compression was within manufacturers guidelines or if it was acceptable because the engine was in fact OEM and had received no 'blue printing.'

Biggles

[Shaun Harris]

maybe there will NOT be an appeal re the appeal on this case, otherwise it is going to cost MNZ a lot of money to fix this. OEM is OEM and no one on the appeal board has the engineering expertise nor the authority to change the meaning of english nor to ignore head line rules for this an other classes already mentioned, " anything not mentioned must remain as is"

Bailie knows how I feel about him as a person and a rider, for me this is all abou eilliminating bike builders/owners that cheat from our sport so as to not cock up a young talented riders future by negative press as in this case, and for the good of all future NZ racers looking to go over seas that find doors closing due to negative history re NZ Ridres.

Some thing I experienced years and years ago when door knocking over seas

[Crasherfromwayback]

OEM is OEM and no one on the appeal board has the engineering expertise

Jim Doherty most certainly does. A true gentleman too. Best thing (well him and Billy) that's ever happened to MNZ.

[Shaun Harris]

Jim Doherty most certainly does. A true gentleman too. Best thing (well him and Billy) that's ever happened to MNZ.





I sit humbly corrected. I guess it is just the true meaning of the english terminolgies that is the issue with the decision then

[Mental Trousers]

It is virtually impossible to say whether a blue printed engine has been modified or whether they just got a whole bunch of parts and matched them up. That's the problem. A blue printed engine is within spec as is the engine built from a big pile of slightly mismatching parts and is an engine straight off the production line.

Trying to stop anything like blue printing is ridiculously expensive. The only way to do it and be sure is for MNZ to own all the engines, seal them and dish them out. That's not going to happen.

Interpretation is not up to us and this result means blue printing is perfectly legal, as it should be.

But, the rules should not need interpretation. For instance saying "only OEM produced parts that are within the manufacturers spec (may be modified to conform)" would completely clear it up.

[Shorty_925]

Trying to stop anything like blue printing is ridiculously expensive. The only way to do it and be sure is for MNZ to own all the engines, seal them and dish them out. That's not going to happen.

Workmate runs a Super Saloon, engines get sent away once a year to some place and sealed, all engines for the catergory and thats what you run for the year.

IF they find anything after that, your gone so he said.

Correct me if Im wrong anyone on above.

[Shaun Harris]

It is virtually impossible to say whether a blue printed engine has been modified or whether they just got a whole bunch of parts and matched them up. That's the problem. A blue printed engine is within spec as is the engine built from a big pile of slightly mismatching parts and is an engine straight off the production line.

Trying to stop anything like blue printing is ridiculously expensive. The only way to do it and be sure is for MNZ to own all the engines, seal them and dish them out. That's not going to happen.

Interpretation is not up to us and this result means blue printing is perfectly legal, as it should be.

But, the rules should not need interpretation. For instance saying "only OEM produced parts that are within the manufacturers spec (may be modified to conform)" would completely clear it up.




go and understand fully what blueprinting means then come back and post away big fulla, as currently you have not even scratched the service of it but love reading your stories anyway

[quickbuck]

go and understand fully what blueprinting means then come back and post away big fulla, as currently you have not even scratched the service of it but love reading your stories anyway




Yup, actually Blue Printing a 250 Production engine would be quiet expensive.... For the gain you might as well just learn to ride better.... After all it is supposed to be essentially Run What Ya Brung racing.... Low cost, competitive and most importantly fun.... I love the class because I don't have to have my bike in pieces between every round...

To be fair though, I do know of one of the top car racers buying up the entire stock of engine internals just to build the perfect engine for his class.... Now that wasn't cheap.... He did get to sell all the unwanted bits off to the competition though, so might have made a dollar or two from the exercise.





Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

[Shaun Harris]

Yup, actually Blue Printing a 250 Production engine would be quiet expensive.... For the gain you might as well just learn to ride better.... After all it is supposed to be essentially Run What Ya Brung racing.... Low cost, competitive and most importantly fun.... I love the class because I don't have to have my bike in pieces between every round...

To be fair though, I do know of one of the top car racers buying up the entire stock of engine internals just to build the perfect engine for his class.... Now that wasn't cheap.... He did get to sell all the unwanted bits off to the competition though, so might have made a dollar or two from the exercise.





Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.







Blueprinting involves removing metal man, not just choosing all parts the same to weigh the same or as close as possible, it takes 2 to tango

[Mental Trousers]

Blue printing is modifying stock bits (in this case) to optimize things within the given specs with the aim of getting best power - isn't that right??

How can you say an engine is illegally modified if the manufacturer says provided everything is stock parts within these specs it's good?

[Grumph]

go and understand fully what blueprinting means then come back and post away big fulla, as currently you have not even scratched the service of it but love reading your stories anyway

As one who has been blueprinting motors for a very long time, Shaun, I suggest you read the intro to 250 Production in the MNZ rule book - particularly note 2. This is an invitation to blueprinting....You can't blame people for walking in.

If the intent of the rules was to run dead standard, as received bikes, it's a fail.
If the intent was to allow sensible mods which probably extend engine life, it works.

we have both been around long enough to remember certain makes and models which absolutely had to be blueprinted to even last one race meeting.....

What interests me in all this hooha is the suggestion that this bike ran a close ratio box.....Can anyone actually point to a source of supply for one ?

[Shaun Harris]

As one who has been blueprinting motors for a very long time, Shaun, I suggest you read the intro to 250 Production in the MNZ rule book - particularly note 2. This is an invitation to blueprinting....You can't blame people for walking in.

If the intent of the rules was to run dead standard, as received bikes, it's a fail.
If the intent was to allow sensible mods which probably extend engine life, it works.

we have both been around long enough to remember certain makes and models which absolutely had to be blueprinted to even last one race meeting.....

What interests me in all this hooha is the suggestion that this bike ran a close ratio box.....Can anyone actually point to a source of supply for one ?





I take it this is what you mean by an invitation Grumph

"Only OEM engine parts for the homologated model may be fitted - In the
case of overboring, only oversizes listed as genuine options in the
manufacturers partsbook for the homologated model may be used. only
gaskets of the standard thickness may be used


The intent of the rule is very very clear mate, it states at the top of the rules for this and other classes

"If not mentioned it must remain as standard"

I can see how some one could read it to work in there favour, but sorry man, google is my english teacher and know s a lot more than I do about it,

[Kickaha]

it actually means as long as it fits the messurement criteria, and re moving metel to achieve this is ok. WOW good work MNZ reps, just set a presedent for the future in a negative way

Do you have valid proof you can share with everyone that this was done?

If not you should shut the fuck up

[quickbuck]

Blueprinting involves removing metal man, not just choosing all parts the same to weigh the same or as close as possible, it takes 2 to tango




Um, you do remember where I work eh? Yup, fully realise you usually remove metal to Blue Print... Ie make all dimensions Nominal.
The second paragraph was an example of someone building an engine without Blue printing strictly speaking.... As a converse point.





Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

[Shaun Harris]

Um, you do remember where I work eh? Yup, fully realise you usually remove metal to Blue Print... Ie make all dimensions Nominal.
The second paragraph was an example of someone building an engine without Blue printing strictly speaking.... As a converse point.





Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.





no actually, some thing else I have forgotten

[Shaun Harris]

Do you have valid proof you can share with everyone that this was done?

If not you should shut the fuck up




Hey, are you the swinger I upset in the toilet block at ch ch a few years back Kickaha

[quickbuck]

no actually, some thing else I have forgotten




Clue: All the pretty coloured words in my signature can be clicked on and the will take you to relevant sites..... :)



A bit hard if you are on Tapa Talk on your phone to be fair....



Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

[nodrog]

Fucksakes, sombody has hit their head.

[Shaun Harris]

Clue: All the pretty coloured words in my signature can be clicked on and the will take you to relevant sites..... :)



A bit hard if you are on Tapa Talk on your phone to be fair....



Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.






perhaps its just the drugs Im on haha, no idea man

[Billy]

As one who has been blueprinting motors for a very long time, Shaun, I suggest you read the intro to 250 Production in the MNZ rule book - particularly note 2. This is an invitation to blueprinting....You can't blame people for walking in.

If the intent of the rules was to run dead standard, as received bikes, it's a fail.
If the intent was to allow sensible mods which probably extend engine life, it works.

we have both been around long enough to remember certain makes and models which absolutely had to be blueprinted to even last one race meeting.....

What interests me in all this hooha is the suggestion that this bike ran a close ratio box.....Can anyone actually point to a source of supply for one ?

The problem with the statement at the start of your post,Is the competitors don't get the right to interpret the rules,Basically,If your not sure,Ask,Ignorance is no excuse,A few have rung me during my time as commissioner and have gone away with the info they required,Sometimes its what the y wanted to hear,Sometimes,Not so much,


But in the case of the introduction to appendix I,You have to be reasonably stupid to not understand the intent,I meam,If the intent was to allow machining of surfaces,Then there would be an allowance for a different thickness gasket to compensate,Not sure where you heard the rumor of a close ratio gearbox,But thats the rumormill at work.

It appears this is heading to the sports tribunal as there are a number of affected folks lining up to do so,So I won't elaborate too much,But Ive just being going through the file and piccies again with the steward and there are some serious areas of concern,I'll await the report before I make a final decision on my thoughts,Thats assuming anybody bothers to keep me in the loop seeing as I had to hear about the decision release from Australia today,Go figure aye

[FROSTY]

Except it is cheating.
No i think his double entendre is actually correct.
ACCEPT :msn-wink:

[FROSTY]

Guys -wouldn't it be a good idea going forwards to take this as a chance to avoid any chance the rules could be miconstrued.
maybee some rephrasing so no way it could be a point of argument in the future

[Mental Trousers]

As one who has been blueprinting motors for a very long time, Shaun, I suggest you read the intro to 250 Production in the MNZ rule book - particularly note 2. This is an invitation to blueprinting....You can't blame people for walking in.

If the intent of the rules was to run dead standard, as received bikes, it's a fail.
If the intent was to allow sensible mods which probably extend engine life, it works.

we have both been around long enough to remember certain makes and models which absolutely had to be blueprinted to even last one race meeting.....

What interests me in all this hooha is the suggestion that this bike ran a close ratio box.....Can anyone actually point to a source of supply for one ?

The problem with the statement at the start of your post,Is the competitors don't get the right to interpret the rules,Basically,If your not sure,Ask,Ignorance is no excuse,A few have rung me during my time as commissioner and have gone away with the info they required,Sometimes its what the y wanted to hear,Sometimes,Not so much,

Unfortunately the rules as they have been written look like they have to be interpreted, ie they're not explicit enough. People not asking is always going to be a problem if they believe they're reading the rules correctly.

However, if they were rewritten to be as clear as possible without any alternative interpretations you then have the problem of enforcement.

[Billy]

Unfortunately the rules as they have been written look like they have to be interpreted, ie they're not explicit enough. People not asking is always going to be a problem if they believe they're reading the rules correctly.

However, if they were rewritten to be as clear as possible without any alternative interpretations you then have the problem of enforcement.

Nope,Seems clear enough too me, "If its not mentioned then it must remain OEM",The only machining mentioned re engine is reboring,NOWHERE does it mention machining surfaces and why would there be a mention of the gasket thickness if it was okay to change cylinder height?

[jellywrestler]

Nope,Seems clear enough too me, "If its not mentioned then it must remain OEM",The only machining mentioned re engine is reboring,NOWHERE does it mention machining surfaces and why would there be a mention of the gasket thickness if it was okay to change cylinder height?

copied from rule book...
NOTE:
All items not mentioned in the following articles must remain as originally produced
by the manufacturer, remain fitted and operational for that homologated model.

[jasonu]

this protest didn't come from a competitor though

Yes I understand that. But still it is a protest all the same and apparently one based on poor information. The competitor and his team have been put to a lot of trouble, wasted a lot of time and their reputation is now not as it was. Surely some compensation is due.

[RobGassit]

Yes I understand that. But still it is a protest all the same and apparently one based on poor information. The competitor and his team have been put to a lot of trouble, wasted a lot of time and their reputation is now not as it was. Surely some compensation is due.

You really have no idea at all what you are talking about. Have you ever signed a competitors indemnity? If you have, did you read it? Seriously, you could do us all a favour by bringing yourself up to speed before pulling onto the motorway.

[Grumph]

Nope,Seems clear enough too me, "If its not mentioned then it must remain OEM",The only machining mentioned re engine is reboring,NOWHERE does it mention machining surfaces and why would there be a mention of the gasket thickness if it was okay to change cylinder height?

At least quote accurately. "All items not mentioned in the following articles must remain as originally produced by the manufacturer"

Then, note 2, "only OEM engine parts for the homologated model may be fitted...."

In conjunction with using the parts and service manuals for the homologated model being used as reference to confirm standard specifications - from the intro again....

I read this as permitting combinations of standard OE parts...example. selective bearing clearancing...And if the specifications for a given part are in the service manual,taking said part to whichever end of the standard specification range you desire is legal so long as it stays within the parameters in the book.
I'd point out that nowhere does it say removing metal to achieve this is illegal.

I'd also point out that rules as WRITTEN must be upheld - nowhere in the book does it say that the INTENT of the rule is paramount

I'm sorry for the way this has turned out but given we're working off written rules which use an imperfect medium - written language - which is capable of interpretation, conflict is inevitable. Oh, and if I was building one, I would NOT ring for clarification before starting. We ALL work from the book as it is written.

[Shaun Harris]

At least quote accurately. "All items not mentioned in the following articles must remain as originally produced by the manufacturer"

Then, note 2, "only OEM engine parts for the homologated model may be fitted...."

In conjunction with using the parts and service manuals for the homologated model being used as reference to confirm standard specifications - from the intro again....

I read this as permitting combinations of standard OE parts...example. selective bearing clearancing...And if the specifications for a given part are in the service manual,taking said part to whichever end of the standard specification range you desire is legal so long as it stays within the parameters in the book.
I'd point out that nowhere does it say removing metal to achieve this is illegal.

I'd also point out that rules as WRITTEN must be upheld - nowhere in the book does it say that the INTENT of the rule is paramount

I'm sorry for the way this has turned out but given we're working off written rules which use an imperfect medium - written language - which is capable of interpretation, conflict is inevitable. Oh, and if I was building one, I would NOT ring for clarification before starting. We ALL work from the book as it is written.









Perfect Grumph, yes you can build a semi blue printed engine legally by matching parts and bearing clearances as you have pointed out, but that is where the blue printing stage ends. All my motors over the years were built in this manner by a very very good engine builder.





it is funny how mechanics talk to each other in work shop enviroments about the work they are doing and what they have seen in motors eh and then one of them tells some one else out side of work hours.

[Billy]

copied from rule book...
NOTE:
All items not mentioned in the following articles must remain as originally produced
by the manufacturer, remain fitted and operational for that homologated model.

Thats right "AS ORIGINALLY PRODUCED" Not "Oh as long as its an OEM part you can do what you want with it"

Theres NO reading between the lines accepted and Grumphs explanation below that he would not seek clarification is a clear case of ignorance,As stated earlier Ignorance is not an excuse for ineligibility

[Yow Ling]

Ok so say a head is slightly warped, is it ok to have it machined to return it to flat so long as it is within the manufacturers specifications, afterall this is how the manufacturers make things flat.

The rule book says what you cant do , not what you can do.

[scott411]

Ok so say a head is slightly warped, is it ok to have it machined to return it to flat so long as it is within the manufacturers specifications, afterall this is how the manufacturers make things flat.

The rule book says what you cant do , not what you can do.

thats incorrect, from the top of teh 250 production rules,


NOTE:
All items not mentioned in the following articles must remain as originally produced
by the manufacturer, remain fitted and operational for that homologated model.
The parts and service manuals for the homologated models will be used as reference to
confirm standard specifications.

[Tony.OK]

At least quote accurately. "All items not mentioned in the following articles must remain as originally produced by the manufacturer" So then by removing metal the part suddenly isn't "as produced by the manufacturer"

Then, note 2, "only OEM engine parts for the homologated model may be fitted...." Therefore using the 1st sentence.....Any OEM part must remain as produced by manufacturer.

In conjunction with using the parts and service manuals for the homologated model being used as reference to confirm standard specifications - from the intro again....

I read this as permitting combinations of standard OE parts...example. selective bearing clearancing...And if the specifications for a given part are in the service manual,taking said part to whichever end of the standard specification range you desire is legal so long as it stays within the parameters in the book.
I'd point out that nowhere does it say removing metal to achieve this is illegal. by that theory, porting and polishing is also legal as long as its done within OEM tolerances? not really "as produced by manufacturer" though aye

I'd also point out that rules as WRITTEN must be upheld - nowhere in the book does it say that the INTENT of the rule is paramount

I'm sorry for the way this has turned out but given we're working off written rules which use an imperfect medium - written language - which is capable of interpretation, conflict is inevitable. Oh, and if I was building one, I would NOT ring for clarification before starting. We ALL work from the book as it is written.

Seems pretty black n white the way rules are written, allows for blueprinting via selection of OEM parts, but not modification of OEM parts.

[Billy]

Seems pretty black n white the way rules are written, allows for blueprinting via selection of OEM parts, but not modification of OEM parts.

Spot on,Living proof that the manual is not that hard to understand,So long as you don't read into it what you want.

[Billy]

Ok so say a head is slightly warped, is it ok to have it machined to return it to flat so long as it is within the manufacturers specifications, afterall this is how the manufacturers make things flat.



Nope,Classic example is Luke Burgess's machine,The reason it has a borrowed engine is because his head was warped and the rules did NOT allow him to have it machinedWhy would you think there would be a rule stating the gaskets had to be the same thickness as OEM if you could alter the cylinder or case height,Doesn't make any sense.

That said,There probably SHOULD be a system whereby provided the owner/competitor could provide proof their cylinder/Head or cases were warped and needed machining,That could take place on the basis that a thicker gasket was used to reinstate the engine to its ORIGINAL spec,Of course then that would require MNZ to rely on its stewards to police and well......

[roogazza]

Jim Doherty most certainly does. A true gentleman too. Best thing (well him and Billy) that's ever happened to MNZ.

Yes Bud, Jim's a rock !

All this chat about 'Production' set the heart 'a flutter ' huh !!! :shifty:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yes Bud, Jim's a rock !

All this chat about 'Production' set the heart 'a flutter ' huh !!! :shifty:

Was Jim that homologated our KR1's. So all done by the book. :innocent:

[Grumph]

Thats right "AS ORIGINALLY PRODUCED" Not "Oh as long as its an OEM part you can do what you want with it"

Theres NO reading between the lines accepted and Grumphs explanation below that he would not seek clarification is a clear case of ignorance,As stated earlier Ignorance is not an excuse for ineligibility

Sorry, Billy - note it's " all items NOT mentioned ".....As soon as someone wrote note 2, it opened up engine parts as an area which could be changed. BUT of course using OEM parts...

Then when the same someone tied the specs to a service manual - which has a stated range of tolerances for certain given parts - again, it was opened up for a builder to match those tolerances. In my opinion there is no difference between a factory produced head of "X" thickness and one which has been taken to "X" thickness by a builder.....And if that X thickness matches what the factory says is within tolerances - it's legal.

My stated aversion to asking for clarification is based on years of receiving wrong info from MNZ reps. I'm of the opinion that my interpretation of written rules is at least as good as any elected or appointed representative.

[Billy]

Was Jim that homologated our KR1's. So all done by the book. :innocent:

Hmm,Hes a top bloke alright AND he was the person I nominated to represent the commission in this appeal.

By Homologate,Do you mean "Helped bolt the big carbs etc on" ? hahahahaha,Thats a very different scenario to this one,From memory the rule at the time was "Must be 10 available to the general public to be homologated" Mustve been a big night in the Wellington branch of KHI that"

So now you see what we're trying to stop replicating,Really don't want a return of"The good old days" where theres so many illegal bikes in the feild its just impossible to police haha

[scott411]

Hmm,Hes a top bloke alright AND he was the person I nominated to represent the commission in this appeal.

By Homologate,Do you mean "Helped bolt the big carbs etc on" ? hahahahaha,Thats a very different scenario to this one,From memory the rule at the time was "Must be 10 available to the general public to be homologated" Mustve been a big night in the Wellington branch of KHI that"

So now you see what we're trying to stop replicating,Really don't want a return of"The good old days" where theres so many illegal bikes in the feild its just impossible to police haha

or fuck, there goes my sales plans for next years Ninja 250R SP :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Billy]

Sorry, Billy - note it's " all items NOT mentioned ".....As soon as someone wrote note 2, it opened up engine parts as an area which could be changed. BUT of course using OEM parts...

Then when the same someone tied the specs to a service manual - which has a stated range of tolerances for certain given parts - again, it was opened up for a builder to match those tolerances. In my opinion there is no difference between a factory produced head of "X" thickness and one which has been taken to "X" thickness by a builder.....And if that X thickness matches what the factory says is within tolerances - it's legal.

My stated aversion to asking for clarification is based on years of receiving wrong info from MNZ reps. I'm of the opinion that my interpretation of written rules is at least as good as any elected or appointed representative.

Yea,I'd be remiss to suggest the system was anywhere perfect,BUT NOWHERE does it mention you can machine engine parts other than bore size.

[Billy]

or fuck, there goes my sales plans for next years Ninja 250R SP :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Hahahahaha,Wanna buy 1

[Kiwi Graham]

I dont know the facts but..

Isn’t this the classic age old case of an engine builder building (in this case blue printing) an engine ‘to’ the rules clearly as he/they interpreted them. And as in this case felt that should there be a dispute they had a defence.

Guys the above scenario has been happening world wide for bloody years within far more intricate rulings and classes than ours in dear old UnZud and I can t see it changing, F1, Americas cup, Dorna et al

Part of the engine builders and now electronic techs job is to build what they can within the confines of the ruling and be able to defend the job done should the need arise.

The art of the rule maker is to produce rules that are un-interpretable and the art of the engineer is to find an interpretation that works in front of a panel of experts.

I used to work for a small privateer world endurance team and we had bloody lawyers looking at rule interpretation should there be a need for defence in an effort to maximise our strategy from an engineering perspective.

When a rule change effects what has been happening comes into place the boffins will run off into the corners and devise through R&D an alternative to regain what was lost and in some circumstances improve on that loss.

[Grumph]

Yea,I'd be remiss to suggest the system was anywhere perfect,BUT NOWHERE does it mention you can machine engine parts other than bore size.

I've scoured appendix I and nowhere does it say you can't.....How do you plan on differentiating a head - or barrel - which has been taken to the minimum thickness from an OE one which came out of the factory at that thickness ?

Short of one entity owning all the bikes in a class you're never going to stop people going to the limit of the rules.

when i was doing a lot of speedway motors i made the point very publicly that next time they changed the engine rules, they should talk to the engine builders first.....couldn't hurt.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Hmm,Hes a top bloke alright AND he was the person I nominated to represent the commission in this appeal.

By Homologate,Do you mean "Helped bolt the big carbs etc on" ? hahahahaha,Thats a very different scenario to this one,From memory the rule at the time was "Must be 10 available to the general public to be homologated" Mustve been a big night in the Wellington branch of KHI that"

So now you see what we're trying to stop replicating,Really don't want a return of"The good old days" where theres so many illegal bikes in the feild its just impossible to police haha

Absolutely mate. Doubt ANYONE would like it to be how it once was.


or fuck, there goes my sales plans for next years Ninja 250R SP :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Lol. Bummer huh!

[manxkiwi]

Do us all a favour by bringing yourself up to speed before pulling onto the motorway.

I think I might use that as my sig., if you don't mind? He he.

[SS90]

I've scoured appendix I and nowhere does it say you can't.....How do you plan on differentiating a head - or barrel - which has been taken to the minimum thickness from an OE one which came out of the factory at that thickness ?

Short of one entity owning all the bikes in a class you're never going to stop people going to the limit of the rules.

when i was doing a lot of speedway motors i made the point very publicly that next time they changed the engine rules, they should talk to the engine builders first.....couldn't hurt.

I'm not sure that I have ever seen an engine spec sheet that gives the "height of a standard cylinder head there Greg" (unless of course "homalgomated" bikes have such a tech sheet) and if it is not a spec that is available how does one know?

The volume of the combustion chamber (which of course is easily measured) is such an easy thing to measure, it has the correct compressîon ratio, or not.

If an inspected engine has a smaller combustion chamber volume, it's fair to say its been skimmed, if you measure the thickness of the head or not. (which will also retard the cam timing anyway.... Can't see that as a gain)

Anyway.....over boring an engine (as the engine in question has been suggested to have been) will alter the compression ratio, and, by the rules, this cannot be remedied.

A massive gain?

Unlikely.

Over boring a cylinder for no other reason other than the hope of gaining power in a producation 250 class?

Lame.

[RobGassit]

One thing is for certain, MNZ god bless them could be well served with some legal advice on setting up rules with less room for artistic licence and clear cut procedures for the poor bastard stewards who operate between a rock and a hard place for a cut lunch and a bus pass. Swerve built a rocket and got away with it. Nice one. Bailie rode the legs off it. That's great. I hope Bailie can develop his talent in other classes and still do well in an EJC style class. I hope Swerve will share some of his secrets so we can all get the very best out of our OEM pieces of shit. We are off to race ProTwins,,, surely there won't be many blueprinted engines in that class. Now where did I put that Yoshimura catalogue?

[chindit]

(Remain as originally produced by the manufacturer) may be a clue there as to grinding chopping filing may not be allowed. MNZ are not perfect, the rulebook is not perfect, but you can change all that if you want to. Get elected on the board, submit rule changes. Your commissioner is retiring . I don't know him but my guess he has put more time and effort into his job than is good for him. So all the rulebook experts that can read between the lines become the commissioner, its really easy. Read Tony ok post (the one with the red ) Look at what the rules say, not what they don't say.
I can tell you from personal experience protests, appeals, people who think they know the rules, and people just winging for the sake of it you get sick of it. Please people stick to the rules don't bend them and stop criticizing the people trying there best to organize your events. Its suppose to be fun and sometimes being a official (flaggy COC steward ECT) you feel like just going home and its not fun.
So who the sucke....... person up for road race commissioner

[roogazza]

Over boring a cylinder for no other reason other than the hope of gaining power in a producation 250 class?

Lame.

Arrrgh grasshopper ! You have much to learn ! :lol::lol:

[Billy]

I'm not sure that I have ever seen an engine spec sheet that gives the "height of a standard cylinder head there Greg" (unless of course "homalgomated" bikes have such a tech sheet) and if it is not a spec that is available how does one know?

The volume of the combustion chamber (which of course is easily measured) is such an easy thing to measure, it has the correct compressîon ratio, or not.

If an inspected engine has a smaller combustion chamber volume, it's fair to say its been skimmed, if you measure the thickness of the head or not. (which will also retard the cam timing anyway.... Can't see that as a gain)

Anyway.....over boring an engine (as the engine in question has been suggested to have been) will alter the compression ratio, and, by the rules, this cannot be remedied.

A massive gain?

Unlikely.

Over boring a cylinder for no other reason other than the hope of gaining power in a producation 250 class?

Lame.

So how did you turn The "The only thing you can machine is the cylinder bore size" into,The machine in question was bored oversize?????? Shall we add that to the "Apparent" close ratio gearbox that doesn't exist.I'm pretty sure I saw a turbo as well,It was on a van parked in the car park,But lets add that to the list of non existent issues.

I know the written text can be hard to gauge sometimes,But come on!!!

[SS90]

So how did you turn The "The only thing you can machine is the cylinder bore size" into,The machine in question was bored oversize?????? Shall we add that to the "Apparent" close ratio gearbox that doesn't exist.I'm pretty sure I saw a turbo as well,It was on a van parked in the car park,But lets add that to the list of non existent issues.

I know the written text can be hard to gauge sometimes,But come on!!!

Ok, we'll if I am mistaken, is there any chance someone could enlighten me to what was actually done?

It has been implied material has been removed..... From where?

[RobGassit]

Ok, we'll if I am mistaken, is there any chance someone could enlighten me to what was actually done?

It has been implied material has been removed..... From where?

Really? You really expect an answer to this post? And you are mistaken, in fact you are so mistaken I can't actually believe you are not taking the piss. Emmerdale is on soon,,, I wouldn't want you to miss an episode.:bye:

[Shaun Harris]

Ok, we'll if I am mistaken, is there any chance someone could enlighten me to what was actually done?

It has been implied material has been removed..... From where?






implied is the key word there just like the so called close ratio gear box, JUST RUMOURS Not written any where that I have seen.


All will come out at the exspense of the MNZ owners account ( The licence holders) The appeal just over turned has made a very bad naieve decision and the next appeal of that appeal is going to cost big time money wise out of MNZ Kitty.

If proven METAL was removed, it is NOT as OEM Produced so is illegal!

Sorry Bailie I KNOW you had nothing to do with the building of this bike and unfortunately you are going to suffer more due to work carried out on the bike you were sponsored to race.

[SS90]

Really? You really expect an answer to this post? And you are mistaken, in fact you are so mistaken I can't actually believe you are not taking the piss. Emmerdale is on soon,,, I wouldn't want you to miss an episode.:bye:

Oh I see, it's a secret club thing. As you where. Just another jerk circle.

[quickbuck]

Oh I see, it's a secret club thing. As you where. Just another jerk circle.




It's not that.
It is more along the lines of "This is not the time or place" to publish those findings.
As has been stated... I can't remember if it was here or Facebook, but in essence there will be an official report come out about it all.
I'm picking this will be from MNZ. You are not going to get snippets of it on here....
Just more bits of information to take out of context if that were to happen.





Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

[Shaun Harris]

It's not that.
It is more along the lines of "This is not the time or place" to publish those findings.
As has been stated... I can't remember if it was here or Facebook, but in essence there will be an official report come out about it all.
I'm picking this will be from MNZ. You are not going to get snippets of it on here....
Just more bits of information to take out of context if that were to happen.





Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.





It is on mnz web site home page

[Grumph]

I'm not sure that I have ever seen an engine spec sheet that gives the "height of a standard cylinder head there Greg" (unless of course "homalgomated" bikes have such a tech sheet) and if it is not a spec that is available how does one know?


A massive gain?

Unlikely.

Over boring a cylinder for no other reason other than the hope of gaining power in a producation 250 class?

Lame.

Neil - i haven't read the report yet so i don't know on what grounds the appeal was upheld. I also don't know what is in the factory manuals for this model, yet..
Small gains, yes - but in my (very) long experience it's usually not the guys at the front of a class like this that are the cheats, it's the mid field runners who want to move forward. In Formula ford for years most of the midfield engines were illegal...Details supplied on request (request on back of $100 note please)
In this case as has been said here, Swoop built a LEGAL rocket - and Baillie rode the wheels off it. On his home circuit...
I've personally spoken to guys who rode against it and they were the ones saying close ratio box....If none exists, case closed on that rumour. They also said higher rev limiter....I'm assuming the numbers on the ignition box were kosher too. Finish that rumour too.

The process of protest and appeal obviously works....My original advice of appeal and race under protest comes straight from the Kevin McCleary song book - make the protester prove his case....Even if it's MNZ.

[Billy]

Neil - i haven't read the report yet so i don't know on what grounds the appeal was upheld. I also don't know what is in the factory manuals for this model, yet..
Small gains, yes - but in my (very) long experience it's usually not the guys at the front of a class like this that are the cheats, it's the mid field runners who want to move forward. In Formula ford for years most of the midfield engines were illegal...Details supplied on request (request on back of $100 note please)
In this case as has been said here, Swoop built a LEGAL rocket - and Baillie rode the wheels off it. On his home circuit...
I've personally spoken to guys who rode against it and they were the ones saying close ratio box....If none exists, case closed on that rumour. They also said higher rev limiter....I'm assuming the numbers on the ignition box were kosher too. Finish that rumour too.

The process of protest and appeal obviously works....My original advice of appeal and race under protest comes straight from the Kevin McCleary song book - make the protester prove his case....Even if it's MNZ.

Not going to go into specifics for obvious reasons,But there are some areas that you have mentioned above that need looking at when we get to the sports tribunal that were mystically overlooked IMO,Just a wee correction as well,I think you may mean Swerve not Swoop,Funnily enough though as Swoop was one of the officials that wanted the machine inspected

[RobGassit]

Yeah but swoop is the sound it made when it went past,,,:gob:

[Grumph]

Not going to go into specifics for obvious reasons,But there are some areas that you have mentioned above that need looking at when we get to the sports tribunal that were mystically overlooked IMO,Just a wee correction as well,I think you may mean Swerve not Swoop,Funnily enough though as Swoop was one of the officials that wanted the machine inspected

Correction duly noted - My apologies to Swoop.

[Yow Ling]

So all this talk about OEM this and that , what does it actually mean?

"The term OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. What does that really mean? It means that the part was made by a company that is a subcontractor to a vehicle manufacturer. It DOES NOT mean the part was made by the manufacturer. Some examples;
•Most fuel parts on a VW are made by Bosch. This means that Bosch is the OEM for VW regardless of where you buy the Bosch part it is still OEM.
•Tong Yang (A Chinese company) is the OEM light, mirror and radiator subcontractor for Nissan and Toyota.
•Hella is an OEM light supplier to many of the European vehicles.
•Almost all remanufactured parts are OEM as the original part is rebuilt which does not change whom made the part.

It has long been a common missconception that only a vehicle dealership carries OEM parts. Though they would like you to beleive that, it is not the case. Many if not most parts you get from a dealership you can also get elsewhere for less money made by the exact same company in a different box."

So if you were thinking that OEM for all the parts on this bike is Kawasaki you may be surprised, ART for example make lots of pistons, maybe KHI doesn't make any pistons.
Also the removing metal bit is a bit shaky, all manufacturers remove metal , its called subtractive machining, the kind that's done on lathes , mills , boring machines, grinders etc, who can tell who removed the metal and when.

Just something to think about

[tigertim20]

Seems pretty black n white the way rules are written, allows for blueprinting via selection of OEM parts, but not modification of OEM parts.


Spot on,Living proof that the manual is not that hard to understand,So long as you don't read into it what you want.

so, if one assumes the rules are written as they are in order to ensure that people are competing on equal machinery, why split hairs on the matter of 'selecting from a range of oem parts' and 'machining said part WITHIN MANUFACTURERS SPECS'?
I mean, manufacturers specs have some range to them, due to manufacturing being an imperfect process - thus two or three bikes that came off the assemble line sequentially are likely to have slightly different measurements of the fitted parts, and from what I understand, it isnt uncommon for this to result in said sequentially produced bikes to perform differently on a dyno when compared to each other.
So this imperfection on manufacturing creates something on a luck of the draw scenario for who buys the bike off the floor with the slightly more beneficially spec'd parts does it not?

surely provided the parts on each machine are within manufacturer specs, then everyone truly has the opportunity to create equal machinery by blueprinting to whatever spec within the range is 'ideal'?

[vickib]

The problem with the statement at the start of your post,Is the competitors don't get the right to interpret the rules,Basically,If your not sure,Ask,Ignorance is no excuse,A few have rung me during my time as commissioner and have gone away with the info they required,Sometimes its what the y wanted to hear,Sometimes,Not so much,


But in the case of the introduction to appendix I,You have to be reasonably stupid to not understand the intent,I meam,If the intent was to allow machining of surfaces,Then there would be an allowance for a different thickness gasket to compensate,Not sure where you heard the rumor of a close ratio gearbox,But thats the rumormill at work.

It appears this is heading to the sports tribunal as there are a number of affected folks lining up to do so,So I won't elaborate too much,But Ive just being going through the file and piccies again with the steward and there are some serious areas of concern,I'll await the report before I make a final decision on my thoughts,Thats assuming anybody bothers to keep me in the loop seeing as I had to hear about the decision release from Australia today,Go figure aye


close ratio gear box haha undercut gear box is the correct term. Apparantly u get your standard gear box and have your favorite machine shop under cut it for you apparantly. this was illegal last year in nz, but been a rule change for 2014 allowing it. 1 250 Production bike wont have to worry as already done and tested it in all 2013. even though the bike builder had to have it done 2 times to get it right apparantly haha

[Grumph]

close ratio gear box haha undercut gear box is the correct term. Apparantly u get your standard gear box and have your favorite machine shop under cut it for you apparantly. this was illegal last year in nz, but been a rule change for 2014 allowing it. 1 250 Production bike wont have to worry as already done and tested it in all 2013. even though the bike builder had to have it done 2 times to get it right apparantly haha

No, sir, wrong. i said, and meant, close ratio box. Fellow competitors were (allegedly) noticing different gearchange points...i'd also point out ,carefully, that it was Baillies home circuit which he could reasonably be expected to know a little better than some others...

i've asked for someone to point out for me where or how a close ratio box can be obtained for these bikes...still waiting.

[quickbuck]

close ratio gear box haha undercut gear box is the correct term. Apparantly u get your standard gear box and have your favorite machine shop under cut it for you apparantly. this was illegal last year in nz, but been a rule change for 2014 allowing it. 1 250 Production bike wont have to worry as already done and tested it in all 2013. even though the bike builder had to have it done 2 times to get it right apparantly haha



Welcome.
2 weeks lurking, and finally posting in this mad house ;)







Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

[suzuki21]

It seems people may be blaming the evil Darth Vader engine builder. If you asked someone to build a hot 600 motor for your road bike or to race in F2 then raced it in 600 superstock is it the engine builders fault? People generally do what the client wants, Im sure whoever built that engine didn't spend lots of his own time or get out work done on a motor to not be payed for it.

[Deano]

Well if this appeal decision stands......looks like it's time to open up the cheque books and start shaving off that unwanted metal. (Good luck with the cranks holding out for long on the SV650's hahaha)

Is that the intent of production racing, or is the idea to get a level playing field where rider skill is the biggest factor. (This is not an attack on anyone - I have a lot of respect for Baillie as a very good racer)

I'm sure that when it comes to interpreting legislation in court cases, the Hansard record can be referred to in order to determine the intention of Government when the legislation was drafted in order to clarify meanings.
Does that sort of natural justice not apply here ?

And I do appreciate that no two OEM engines may be identical in terms of tolerances but...

[Billy]

so, if one assumes the rules are written as they are in order to ensure that people are competing on equal machinery, why split hairs on the matter of 'selecting from a range of oem parts' and 'machining said part WITHIN MANUFACTURERS SPECS'?
I mean, manufacturers specs have some range to them, due to manufacturing being an imperfect process - thus two or three bikes that came off the assemble line sequentially are likely to have slightly different measurements of the fitted parts, and from what I understand, it isnt uncommon for this to result in said sequentially produced bikes to perform differently on a dyno when compared to each other.
So this imperfection on manufacturing creates something on a luck of the draw scenario for who buys the bike off the floor with the slightly more beneficially spec'd parts does it not?

surely provided the parts on each machine are within manufacturer specs, then everyone truly has the opportunity to create equal machinery by blueprinting to whatever spec within the range is 'ideal'?

Yip,

I get what you mean,But if you allow machining,Then there will be those that have the ability to get the tolerances spot on,Thats fine in mopst other classes,But this is an entry level class whereby some of the competitors use their machines for daily transport and/or as newbies to the sport to not have the required knowledge or money to have such work done,Therefore it is no longer a level playing feild

[Deano]

Yip,

I get what you mean,But if you allow machining,Then there will be those that have the ability to get the tolerances spot on,Thats fine in mopst other classes,But this is an entry level class whereby some of the competitors use their machines for daily transport and/or as newbies to the sport to not have the required knowledge or money to have such work done,Therefore it is no longer a level playing feild

How then do you detect what came out as OEM and what has been machined later ?

Also, are factory 'tolerances' more of a determination of when a part needs replacing, rather than what the differences might be when they come off the line as OEM, and therefore should not be construed as OEM ?

[Kickaha]

Hey, are you the swinger I upset in the toilet block at ch ch a few years back Kickaha

No, you're only remembering part of the story

You got upset with me because I had a go at you on here and told you if I had to give anyone a description of you then the words grumpy opiniated cunt would feature in it

[merv]

Toilet block, that doesn't sound a pretty story.

[Kickaha]

Toilet block, that doesn't sound a pretty story.

Yeah imagine an angry ginga dwarf making homosexual advances and the story would get even worse

[Shaun Harris]

No, you're only remembering part of the story

You got upset with me because I had a go at you on here and told you if I had to give anyone a description of you then the words grumpy opiniated cunt would feature in it







That sounds realistic I guess from some one like your self mate

[Grumph]

Yip,

I get what you mean,But if you allow machining,Then there will be those that have the ability to get the tolerances spot on,Thats fine in mopst other classes,But this is an entry level class whereby some of the competitors use their machines for daily transport and/or as newbies to the sport to not have the required knowledge or money to have such work done,Therefore it is no longer a level playing feild

quite correct - but i'd argue that as "production" motorcycles can differ widely as they come off the line, blueprinting can potentially result in a more level playing field....
I'm looking forward to seeing a remit insisting that all production class bikes be road registered- and legal - and must be ridden to the meeting.

Edit - And raced on the tyres they rode in on......

[Shaun Harris]

Yeah imagine an angry ginga dwarf making homosexual advances and the story would get even worse










sorry for thinking your big but was sexy and you looked like you would be good at reach arounds

[Billy]

quite correct - but i'd argue that as "production" motorcycles can differ widely as they come off the line, blueprinting can potentially result in a more level playing field....
I'm looking forward to seeing a remit insisting that all production class bikes be road registered- and legal - and must be ridden to the meeting.

Edit - And raced on the tyres they rode in on......

What!!!! No wets when it rains?? haha

Yea,I personally think we cocked up a little when the fuel injected bikes arrived and we allowed the use of power commanders.My personal thoughts are that we should have changed the rule and made the carburated models run std jets and needles.

[quickbuck]

I'm looking forward to seeing a remit insisting that all production class bikes be road registered- and legal - and must be ridden to the meeting.



Edit - And raced on the tyres they rode in on......




Bugger... I sold off the road gear to pay for last season.... And all this talk of pulling the engine apart... As I have said, can't be bothered with that crap... Just want to turn up and race it pretty much how it finished the last meeting.





Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

[Billy]

How then do you detect what came out as OEM and what has been machined later ?

Also, are factory 'tolerances' more of a determination of when a part needs replacing, rather than what the differences might be when they come off the line as OEM, and therefore should not be construed as OEM ?

Some of the info is supplied when the homologation papers are sent in,Some on request from the distributor or factory on request,We are presently seeking info unavailable from KHI from the manufaturers in Thailand through an Australian agent

[wharfy]

quite correct - but i'd argue that as "production" motorcycles can differ widely as they come off the line, blueprinting can potentially result in a more level playing field....
I'm looking forward to seeing a remit insisting that all production class bikes be road registered- and legal - and must be ridden to the meeting.

Edit - And raced on the tyres they rode in on......

I did that for a Vic Club Winter Series - it was kinda fun to start but got to be a pain in the arse - specially when I got a puncture :(

[quickbuck]

.My personal thoughts are that we should have changed the rule and made the carburated models run std jets and needles.

Again, a very bad weekend if I have to pull the carbs out.... Don't have a clue what size my jets are either.... Actually, thinking about parity, I think that is worthy of a rule submission.... Yup, we all know there can be a flat spot in the carb bikes, so it would teach the rider to manage that.Will also mmean the FI bikes can't be tweaked with the Power Commander....

I can hear the cries already, but think about it....
It allows somebody to turn up on dads commuter bike and be competitive.... Or even dad himself.
Yes, this has been done over the past 12 months with the VMCC and PMCC.







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[quickbuck]

Oh, and it takes a big man to admit he made a cock up Billy. Well done.
We could fix this....

Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

[gammaguy]

Yeah imagine an angry ginga dwarf making homosexual advances and the story would get even worse


Wasn't there one of those in the lord of the rings movie?

[RobGassit]

i've asked for someone to point out for me where or how a close ratio box can be obtained for these bikes...still waiting.

There are performance gears available for these bikes.

[RobGassit]

[QUOTE=quickbuck;1130686103]Bugger... I sold off the road gear to pay for last season.... And all this talk of pulling the engine apart... As I have said, can't be bothered with that crap... Just want to turn up and race it pretty much how it finished

The beauty of the carbed 250 is that there are so many wrecked ones available, making the class so easy to race in. We ran a big end after the engine had run on it's side in a gravel trap. Price of a crank was enormous, so for $700 we got another engine from a wrecker and we were back in business. Obviously,,, if we had blueprinted it,, it may have been quicker,,but we were racing again for bugger all. I hope the class can run for a few years before the 300's take over, because at ten grand a pop, the class gets serious again. Maybe 250 Proddy is best served at club level, where entry level riders can race for fun at modest cost.

[slowpoke]

Yip,

I get what you mean,But if you allow machining,Then there will be those that have the ability to get the tolerances spot on,Thats fine in mopst other classes,But this is an entry level class whereby some of the competitors use their machines for daily transport and/or as newbies to the sport to not have the required knowledge or money to have such work done,Therefore it is no longer a level playing feild

Hmmm, isn't that one hell of an "interpretation" from our ex-commissioner? Seriously, how the fuck can it be called "entry level" when we have EJC Champion Jake Lewis racing in the class? Or hot shot's from Australia flown in to compete in an "entry level" class despite winning it the year before and competing at a far higher level in Australia? You are seriously taking the piss with that statement.

Note: I have no problem with anyone racing in the class, but nowhere in the rules is "entry level" stated. It's a National Championship after all, and nowhere is there an upper age or experience limit so in what way shape or form is this any different to any other NZSBK class? "Entry level" may be what was intended, but the reality is something far far different and I don't blame folks for taking it seriously with blueprinting and such like.

And MNZ specifically mentions machining in the form of gearbox undercutting, so MNZ are the ones who open the door of some having the wherewithal to perform machining and some not.

[Billy]

Hmmm, isn't that one hell of an "interpretation" from our ex-commissioner? Seriously, how the fuck can it be called "entry level" when we have EJC Champion Jake Lewis racing in the class? Or hot shot's from Australia flown in to compete in an "entry level" class despite winning it the year before and competing at a far higher level in Australia? You are seriously taking the piss with that statement.

Note: I have no problem with anyone racing in the class, but nowhere in the rules is "entry level" stated. It's a National Championship after all, and nowhere is there an upper age or experience limit so in what way shape or form is this any different to any other NZSBK class? "Entry level" may be what was intended, but the reality is something far far different and I don't blame folks for taking it seriously with blueprinting and such like.

And MNZ specifically mentions machining in the form of gearbox undercutting, so MNZ are the ones who open the door of some having the wherewithal to perform machining and some not.

The entry level was aimed at club level,Unless of course you expect us to have 2 seperate classes with 2 seperate sets of rules.

The gearbox undercutting was requested as a safety rulechange as the Ninja in particular has a habit of jumping out of gear(Typical Kawasaki gearbox) AND as mentioned earlier as the appendix states "If its not mentioned ,It must remain OEM" As the gearbox IS mentioned then it is allowed,Thought even you couldve worked that out,Opened the door....Where???? Oh yea I get it,Because we allow the machining of the gearbox in the interests of safety,It automatically means go ballistic aye....Now who's taking the piss???

So if the class is suddenly serious,The rules go out the door....Again,Now who's taking the piss???

I must admit,I'm really going to miss the expert opinion you once in a blue moon racers with mountains of expertise that know absolutely EVERYTHING offer.....NOT,Have a nice life Spud,Its been well worth my while putting in the hard yards so you can achieve your 3 meetings a year,MNZ would be crippled without peeps like you.

[gammaguy]

The entry level was aimed at club level,Unless of course you expect us to have 2 seperate classes with 2 seperate sets of rules.

The gearbox undercutting was requested as a safety rulechange as the Ninja in particular has a habit of jumping out of gear(Typical Kawasaki gearbox) AND as mentioned earlier as the appendix states "If its not mentioned ,It must remain OEM" As the gearbox IS mentioned then it is allowed,Thought even you couldve worked that out,Opened the door....Where???? Oh yea I get it,Because we allow the machining of the gearbox in the interests of safety,It automatically means go ballistic aye....Now who's taking the piss???

So if the class is suddenly serious,The rules go out the door....Again,Now who's taking the piss???

I must admit,I'm really going to miss the expert opinion you once in a blue moon racers with mountains of expertise that know absolutely EVERYTHING offer.....NOT,Have a nice life Spud,Its been well worth my while putting in the hard yards so you can achieve your 3 meetings a year,MNZ would be crippled without peeps like you.


Yup........I'm pretty sure I felt a lot like that when I gave up organising race meetings and putting up with all the crap that goes with it


Being surrounded with opinions shaped like assholes sure wears a man down,you have my sympathies Billy

[suzuki21]

I must admit,I'm really going to miss the expert opinion you once in a blue moon racers with mountains of expertise that know absolutely EVERYTHING offer.....NOT,Have a nice life Spud,Its been well worth my while putting in the hard yards so you can achieve your 3 meetings a year,MNZ would be crippled without peeps like you.

I miss your candidness Billy. I am sending some bricks up to you so you can build a little wall so you can continue banging your head on something.

[suzuki21]

Hmmm, isn't that one hell of an "interpretation" from our ex-commissioner? Seriously, how the fuck can it be called "entry level" when we have EJC Champion Jake Lewis racing in the class? Or hot shot's from Australia flown in to compete in an "entry level" class despite winning it the year before and competing at a far higher level in Australia? You are seriously taking the piss with that statement.



Superbike was an entry level class in New Zealand for Aussies Robbie Bugden, Daniel Stauffer, Damian Cudlin, and Phill & Sophie Lovett. They should fuck of too?
We need to ban talented people from sports, its not fair. Bring back Helen.

[Billy]

Yup........I'm pretty sure I felt a lot like that when I gave up organising race meetings and putting up with all the crap that goes with it


Being surrounded with opinions shaped like assholes sure wears a man down,you have my sympathies Billy


I miss your candidness Billy. I am sending some bricks up to you so you can build a little wall so you can continue banging your head on something.

Yip,

While all of the above is true and the job has its "moments" for sure,Amazingly none of those are the reason I have made myself unavailable for reappointment,In fact it has nothing to do with motorcycling

[jellywrestler]

,We are presently seeking info unavailable from KHI from the manufaturers in Thailand through an Australian agent won't be hard to find, will be on the shelf next to the Wire wheeler parts book...

[Billy]

won't be hard to find, will be on the shelf next to the Wire wheeler parts book...

Nope,

Thats in Wanganui on top of the "Black pipe" file in archive

[Shaun Harris]

Nope,

Thats in Wanganui on top of the "Black pipe" file in archive





but but but that model did have awsome cam shafts. Funny how Holdens and toomey bikes sounded so different to other Suzuki bikes- Even though they were awsome riders

Toomey was the best technician as a rider I have ever seen

[Billy]

but but but that model did have awsome cam shafts. Funny how Holdens and toomey bikes sounded so different to other Suzuki bikes- Even though they were awsome riders

Toomey was the best technician as a rider I have ever seen

I know they had awesome camshafts,I could tell you where those camshafts were fitted and that they also never even took the bikes out of the crate so the people in the said warehouse saw the bikes arrive the next day and unpacked them without realising what had gone on hahahahaha,Good old proddy racing.....Lets NOT go there again please

[Crasherfromwayback]

but but but that model did have awsome cam shafts. Funny how Holdens and toomey bikes sounded so different to other Suzuki bikes- Even though they were awsome riders

Toomey was the best technician as a rider I have ever seen

Lol. And the hotrod RGV's I used to race against went *pop* when changing gear...earlier and soooner than stockers (cr gearbox anyone?)etc etc. And so it went. But one thing has remained true...fast bikes or not...the best riders still won. Always will.

[Billy]

Lol. And the hotrod RGV's I used to race against went *pop* when changing gear...earlier and soooner than stockers (cr gearbox anyone?)etc etc. And so it went. But one thing has remained true...fast bikes or not...the best riders still won. Always will.

Hahahahaha,Pot,Kettle black anybody KR1s P indeed....You forgot to mention the 23d10 igniter,F3 headgaskets,Ohlins shock(With a black spring),Gutted pipes and bored carbs.LOL

Like I said,Lets not go back there

[Crasherfromwayback]

Hahahahaha,Pot,Kettle black anybody KR1s P indeed....You forgot to mention the 23d10 igniter,F3 headgaskets,Ohlins shock(With a black spring),Gutted pipes and bored carbs.LOL

Like I said,Lets not go back there

Lol. Mate...one thing I've never done is hide what was going on with my KR1SP. Not once! But no, no gutted pipes, special head gskts or shock I can assure you. Gentleman Jim saw mine in it's entiriety. Hey I see on FB you were in Welly recently...always a spare room for ya in my aprtment if you ever need it and want to tell tall stories of years gone by! I'm always up for it. And regarding proddie racing...I reckon the only way it's ever gonna be straight forward is when you have a pool of bikes and draw number from a hat. Pity rr in NZ ain't big enough to support such a thing.

[Billy]

Lol. Mate...one thing I've never done is hide what was going on with my KR1SP. Not once! But no, no gutted pipes, special head gskts or shock I can assure you. Gentleman Jim saw mine in it's entiriety. Hey I see on FB you were in Welly recently...always a spare room for ya in my aprtment if you ever need it and want to tell tall stories of years gone by! I'm always up for it. And regarding proddie racing...I reckon the only way it's ever gonna be straight forward is when you have a pool of bikes and draw number from a hat. Pity rr in NZ ain't big enough to support such a thing.

Yea,I know what the KR1sP's had,Those other mods were on some South Island RGVs.


Yea,Didn't make it to Welly,Was planning on calling into your shop on the Saturday morning,BUT,The radiator in the van blew the tank clean off the radiator,Right smack in the middle of the desert road,BRILLIANT!!!! Took me 2 1/2 days to get back to Tauranga LOL,Give us a call when your in Tauranga at that flas hotel,Its not far from mine,I'll call in.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yea,I know what the KR1sP's had,Those other mods were on some South Island RGVs.


Yea,Didn't make it to Welly,Was planning on calling into your shop on the Saturday morning,BUT,The radiator in the van blew the tank clean off the radiator,Right smack in the middle of the desert road,BRILLIANT!!!! Took me 2 1/2 days to get back to Tauranga LOL,Give us a call when your in Tauranga at that flas hotel,Its not far from mine,I'll call in.

Yeah fucking clean forgot that's where you reside mate...and I certainly will do! Sorry to hear about your van. I so don't miss being a car mechanic. Nice soft hands now...:shutup:

[oyster]

250 twin four stroke goes way back to a trackside discussion, Tony Greiving and Myself,( Peter Jones) at teretonga about 9 years ago. Streetstock was growing so fast we wondered how we'd find enough bikes. And so the learner approved 250 bike looked good, but it wasn't needed, we scoured the country and found 150's, one year about 4 a month were needed to fill the "register' with around 90 known bikes. 250 prod was hatched in 2009 when Geoff Cain and myself met the Kawasaki top brass in Auckland, they offered a deal to trial the EX250, we chose Seth Devereux as the c.... test dummy (can't use the c word) Seth was super fussy to ensure compliance, he often asked me and if I wasn't sure I referred him to the commission, Paul Stewart back then. Then the rules got firmly set, Kev Goddard on the phone and we discussed and decided matters such as wets, warmers and most importantly, could a youngster ride one. The answer was no, it not's so much the speed but the size of the bike. The Hyosung in particular far to big for a 35kg 13 year old. Seth did a great job, slugged it out with the 150's, after all, the intent was to provide an equal tech option for Streetstock , leaving an opportunity for it to "splinter off" on it's own if it became popular / effective. Now here's the (my) punchline. The next machine came along, from South Canterbury, a repaired road wreck. Straight away it was easy to see a number of rule noncompliances. It was right there and then the firm, polite but discrete "no" needed to be sounded from the club level leadership. That's how cheating should be managed, firm, discrete and as early as detected. That's the "fence" at the top of the cliff. Last year I witnessed the tech checks where many bikes failed, then they went out and rode the GP, a NZtitle race, presumably without penalty! Another rider fell off and continued riding! Someone tell I've got this all wrong, but I really worried this is not just a lack of a fence, but an invitation to flout the rules, and "see how we go". Predictably, there's now this expensive, damaging "train wreck" at the bottom of the cliff. Sorry I if I sound critical, it's just Paul Stewart, a wise man who coached me, and predicted this type of evolution. A real shame. How many views on this thread? bout 6000? That's 12000 eyes that could've spotted the little non compliant "niggles" and said something (discrete) to nip the rot in the bud. No criticism of Billie, top man doin his best. If there's blame, it's people like me, sitting on our hands, knowing the problem is coming, not acting early.

[ellipsis]

No criticism of Billie, top man doin his best. If there's blame, it's people like me, sitting on our hands, knowing the problem is coming, not acting early.

...the problem is of all our making Pete...time for all involved to look at what our sport could be, from the bottom up as much as from the top down...

[Billy]

250 twin four stroke goes way back to a trackside discussion, Tony Greiving and Myself,( Peter Jones) at teretonga about 9 years ago. Streetstock was growing so fast we wondered how we'd find enough bikes. And so the learner approved 250 bike looked good, but it wasn't needed, we scoured the country and found 150's, one year about 4 a month were needed to fill the "register' with around 90 known bikes. 250 prod was hatched in 2009 when Geoff Cain and myself met the Kawasaki top brass in Auckland, they offered a deal to trial the EX250, we chose Seth Devereux as the c.... test dummy (can't use the c word) Seth was super fussy to ensure compliance, he often asked me and if I wasn't sure I referred him to the commission, Paul Stewart back then. Then the rules got firmly set, Kev Goddard on the phone and we discussed and decided matters such as wets, warmers and most importantly, could a youngster ride one. The answer was no, it not's so much the speed but the size of the bike. The Hyosung in particular far to big for a 35kg 13 year old. Seth did a great job, slugged it out with the 150's, after all, the intent was to provide an equal tech option for Streetstock , leaving an opportunity for it to "splinter off" on it's own if it became popular / effective. Now here's the (my) punchline. The next machine came along, from South Canterbury, a repaired road wreck. Straight away it was easy to see a number of rule noncompliances. It was right there and then the firm, polite but discrete "no" needed to be sounded from the club level leadership. That's how cheating should be managed, firm, discrete and as early as detected. That's the "fence" at the top of the cliff. Last year I witnessed the tech checks where many bikes failed, then they went out and rode the GP, a NZtitle race, presumably without penalty! Another rider fell off and continued riding! Someone tell I've got this all wrong, but I really worried this is not just a lack of a fence, but an invitation to flout the rules, and "see how we go". Predictably, there's now this expensive, damaging "train wreck" at the bottom of the cliff. Sorry I if I sound critical, it's just Paul Stewart, a wise man who coached me, and predicted this type of evolution. A real shame. How many views on this thread? bout 6000? That's 12000 eyes that could've spotted the little non compliant "niggles" and said something (discrete) to nip the rot in the bud. No criticism of Billie, top man doin his best. If there's blame, it's people like me, sitting on our hands, knowing the problem is coming, not acting early.

Yip,

Can't disagree with much of that Pete,Especially the section on last year,Both myself AND Rob Lewis questioned the steward on the GP decision,But that person held firm,The situation worsened as we went South and eventually ruined the class for the North Island rounds as many boycotted,So for 2014 I took over the role of tech officer to ensure that things were handled in a manner I thought it should be,Wasn't well received by some and I took the time to meet with one team inbetween rounds just to clarify a few things and listen to any concerns they had and wel,Here we are as you say,A train wreck that is yet again being boycotted by many for the North Island rounds,Not sure where to from here for the class,But due to reasons I cannot yet make public(Personal) I will not be taking any further part.

You did miss out one vital part of your story,The,Then commission would not recognise the class unless there were 6 on the grid for round 1 of the championship series,As the class had been in the rulebook for 2 years without running officially,They were going to have it removed as the rulebook demanded,Until I got involved and started lobbying those in the south island to get the job done for the 2011 series,As late in 2010 as October even Seth was not going to use his 250 for the 2011 series,But had chosen to opt for his trusty KR in the streetstock class,I persuaded him to change his mind and then (Short version) I brought and prepared 5 of them,As it turned out I left one at home so I gould fit in the Hyosung NZ sponsored machine of Max Woodly,At round 1 race 1 there were 8 on the grid and the clas was not only saved,But in the rulebook for as long as it is required,How do I feel about that effort now????Absolutely gutted,Worst $35-$40k I have ever spent,The president wanted to pull the pin after the 2012 fiasco but I refused,I wonder now whether I did the right thing?

[Deano]

I was told that there is dyno testing carried out in GB for proddy bike championships. I'd be happy to pay a bit extra on my entry for a dyno run at the end of the odd round, for the top three bikes. I assume that there is dyno data available to show standard deviations in HP ? Can't be that hard - I know of at least one mobile dyno which was has been at Levels.

[Billy]

I was told that there is dyno testing carried out in GB for proddy bike championships. I'd be happy to pay a bit extra on my entry for a dyno run at the end of the odd round, for the top three bikes. I assume that there is dyno data available to show standard deviations in HP ? Can't be that hard - I know of at least one mobile dyno which was has been at Levels.

Yea,

The idea sounds good in theory,But would require another MNZ official to be present for each run and the runs would have to be performed as soon as the bikes come in from their respective races,To be sure they hadn't gone back to their pit area and altered something,Plus I think from memory I was told Mr Harris wanted $2500 per round plus a fee per run and thats for the SI rounds,Adds up cost wise pretty quickly and peeps are already whining about the fees,Not everybody thinks like you mate

[oyster]

Yep, you put in a great effort to kick start the class. I'm familiar with the effort and risk as years earlier streetstock was built from 2 to 30 on the grid. When "the new thing" was pushed by the commission i thought it would need the same key ingredients used to develop streetstock. Promote, recruit, train, support and recognize. Any of those missing and it will fail, same as any sports, community or commercial enterprise. Strange to say it, as i don't really like the hyosung cup concept, but it definitely had those key ingredients. Look how in 5 mins it had a full grid!

[oyster]

About 5 years ago streetstock was humming along as a 3 round national support series. Kids came from all over nz, even oz. There was enthusiasm to make it a full blown nz championship. I agreed until wise paul stewart explained how what we had was perfect. Why risk it? He said champ status would bring out the chequebooks, cheaters, ex champions just looking for an easy trophy, "rent a winner"riders anf all the negative things that would discourage a keen young rider doing his/her best. Besides, he said, a young person can ride at nat level already. 125 at 13yrs, protwin at 15. I realised he was right.

[Billy]

Yep, you put in a great effort to kick start the class. I'm familiar with the effort and risk as years earlier streetstock was built from 2 to 30 on the grid. When "the new thing" was pushed by the commission i thought it would need the same key ingredients used to develop streetstock. Promote, recruit, train, support and recognize. Any of those missing and it will fail, same as any sports, community or commercial enterprise. Strange to say it, as i don't really like the hyosung cup concept, but it definitely had those key ingredients. Look how in 5 mins it had a full grid!

Yea,

It wasn't really about the effort put in so much as what its turned into,What have we got,A handful of Ninja's in the South Island,3 or 4 in the North and around 35 Hyosungs in the cup,Problem is,The Hyo boys won't do the National events unless the class is policed in a reasonable manner,3 years in a row now that has failed to happen for a variety of reasons.

FACT,
2012, 4 Hyosungs should have been excluded from round 1 at Ruapuna for having metal removed from the sidestand brackets.....Overturned at appeal
2013 Most of the feild should have been excluded from round 1 at ruapuna,7 machines with illegal air filter elements and a number of others with sidestand switches removed and undercut gearboxes....Steward ignored them and issued warnings
2014 Following extensive technical checks and an impound a machine was found to be in breach of several rules,Some serious,Some not so much.......AGAIN despite not being bound by the appeal document the appeal committee failed to use commonsense leaving the steward exposed,In accordance with the manual further infringements could be issued,But the steward involved has given up and decided that if he is not able to rely on the organisation to back him when required,To walk away from his position and I have it on good authority that more key volunteers are set to go as well,The Hyo riders are satisfied they have made the right decision and will continue to stay away in their droves,The credibility of anybody coming out of the class is tarnished and the class is dead in the water,IF I was staying on as commissioner,First rulechange proposal I would put forward would be to remove the class from the championship appendix

[quickbuck]

,IF I was staying on as commissioner,First rulechange proposal I would put forward would be to remove the class from the championship appendix


From where I sit that would be pretty gutting....... It is a shame there are only 7 Ninja 250 R riders in the lower North Island... Yes 7. Some don't enter every round, and one is just starting out.... Because I always have riders in other classes complaining about costs. These tend to be guys who are mid pack on a 600 at Club Level..... Go figure.

Personally I don't like the term Development or Entry Level when it comes to 250 Production. Yes you can achieve both of those things, but it is the terms that conjurer up the wrong impression to some riders who should actually sell their 600 and learn to actually race a 250.

If 250 Production is taken off the National Championship Appendix then can we replace it with 500 Production? After all quite a few 250 racers ate actually too heavy for them (me included).












Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

[Billy]

From where I sit that would be pretty gutting....... It is a shame there are only 7 Ninja 250 R riders in the lower North Island... Yes 7. Some don't enter every round, and one is just starting out.... Because I always have riders in other classes complaining about costs. These tend to be guys who are mid pack on a 600 at Club Level..... Go figure.

Personally I don't like the term Development or Entry Level when it comes to 250 Production. Yes you can achieve both of those things, but it is the terms that conjurer up the wrong impression to some riders who should actually sell their 600 and learn to actually race a 250.

If 250 Production is taken off the National Championship Appendix then can we replace it with 500 Production? After all quite a few 250 racers ate actually too heavy for them (me included).












Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

Doesn't matter what the class is,If its not policed in a fair and reasonable manner,Then it will just end up the same as this one has.

[MVnut]

I have written and rewritten a reply a dozen times but before I post I seem to come to the same conclusion so I erase my words..........bottom line is we need more people who actually give a sh*t about racing in NZ and why it is in such a poor state (the worst it's been in ever???)

[oyster]

500 production? What's wrong with 650 production, we already have it. Re 250 numbers, bout 12 at last round here, and that was minus a few regulars. But really, they're only lapping around bucket/streetstock times and the rider demograph the same. At the same meeting plenty of protwin and 125 activity, this is where the ambitious ones head, and way faster too of course. History shows these two classes produce your new elite. How many have come from 250 prod? None. 250 should be as originally intended, a technical alternative to the 150 two stroke in streetstock. Baillie has done very well, but for the money and effort protwin or 125gp would havr served him better.

[The Chow]

Yea,

It wasn't really about the effort put in so much as what its turned into,What have we got,A handful of Ninja's in the South Island,3 or 4 in the North and around 35 Hyosungs in the cup,Problem is,The Hyo boys won't do the National events unless the class is policed in a reasonable manner,3 years in a row now that has failed to happen for a variety of reasons.

FACT,
2012, 4 Hyosungs should have been excluded from round 1 at Ruapuna for having metal removed from the sidestand brackets.....Overturned at appeal
2013 Most of the feild should have been excluded from round 1 at ruapuna,7 machines with illegal air filter elements and a number of others with sidestand switches removed and undercut gearboxes....Steward ignored them and issued warnings
2014 Following extensive technical checks and an impound a machine was found to be in breach of several rules,Some serious,Some not so much.......AGAIN despite not being bound by the appeal document the appeal committee failed to use commonsense leaving the steward exposed,In accordance with the manual further infringements could be issued,But the steward involved has given up and decided that if he is not able to rely on the organisation to back him when required,To walk away from his position and I have it on good authority that more key volunteers are set to go as well,The Hyo riders are satisfied they have made the right decision and will continue to stay away in their droves,The credibility of anybody coming out of the class is tarnished and the class is dead in the water,IF I was staying on as commissioner,First rulechange proposal I would put forward would be to remove the class from the championship appendix

I walked last year , and am real glad I did , the way forward isn't the way things are now , for that matter it doesn't matter how they have been in the past we are in the 21st century , the current governance model is flawed and needs a clean out , by the way it NOT just now which is the problem it has been like that with former CEO's , boards , presidents etc for decades." Time to take a complete 360 degree look at the Elephant in the room "(Not my quote) and look at another way for Road Racing. Dirt has already done it.

[Billy]

I have written and rewritten a reply a dozen times but before I post I seem to come to the same conclusion so I erase my words..........bottom line is we need more people who actually give a sh*t about racing in NZ and why it is in such a poor state (the worst it's been in ever???)

REALLY!!!!!

Worst EVER??? Entries for the first 2 rounds of NZSBK 2014 were UP 50% over 2013.On that basis 2013 must have been thw worst ever??

Yip,Its definitely not in the best state it's ever been,But the statement "worst ever" is most definitely a wee exaggeration,Sounds like you didn't get what you want,But PLENTY of others did.

[Billy]

I walked last year , and am real glad I did , the way forward isn't the way things are and have always been run." Time to take a complete 360 degree look at the Elephant in the room "(Not my quote):mad:

ABSOLUTELY,

As proved for 2014 with a few minor tweeks(No where near as far as I would like to have gone) and the number of National competitors increases by 50%,I doubt MNZ will be open to much change though,In fact I would not be surprised if the changes that CLEARLY worked for 2014 are all undone again for 2015.

[The Chow]

ABSOLUTELY,

As proved for 2014 with a few minor tweeks(No where near as far as I would like to have gone) and the number of National competitors increases by 50%,I doubt MNZ will be open to much change though,In fact I would not be surprised if the changes that CLEARLY worked for 2014 are all undone again for 2015. Reposted -I walked last year , and am real glad I did , The way forward isn't the way things are now , for that matter it doesn't matter how they have been in the past we are in the 21st century , the current governance model is flawed and needs a clean out , by the way it NOT just now which is the problem it has been like that with former CEO's , boards , presidents etc for decades." Time to take a complete 360 degree look at the Elephant in the room "(Not my quote) and look at another way for Road Racing. Dirt has already done it.

[Shaun Harris]

Reposted -I walked last year , and am real glad I did , The way forward isn't the way things are now , for that matter it doesn't matter how they have been in the past we are in the 21st century , the current governance model is flawed and needs a clean out , by the way it NOT just now which is the problem it has been like that with former CEO's , boards , presidents etc for decades." Time to take a complete 360 degree look at the Elephant in the room "(Not my quote) and look at another way for Road Racing. Dirt has already done it.






Agreed re the 21st century mate. In my eyes, mnz has NOT been functioning well at all since we lost Sandra Perry, many bloody moons ago.

Here here re a 360 turn also buddy!


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Quote Originally Posted by The Chow View Post
I walked last year , and am real glad I did , the way forward isn't the way things are and have always been run." Time to take a complete 360 degree look at the Elephant in the room "(Not my quote)
ABSOLUTELY,

As proved for 2014 with a few minor tweeks(No where near as far as I would like to have gone) and the number of National competitors increases by 50%,I doubt MNZ will be open to much change though,In fact I would not be surprised if the changes that CLEARLY worked for 2014 are all undone again for 2015.
RACEFAIRINGS.CO.NZ




360 turn as suggested by Chow and time for a very big change in who is actually running/managing road racing in NZ for the future and benefit of all the kids to come through in the future and to support the current stars of the show bwtter also. If the controlling body stays as it is now or in very simmillar fashion, road racing in NZ is Not good long term at all.

Ok I will say it out loud as I can, Time for a totally different series to promote the best in New Zealand!


Now to come up with the best Marketing name for it

[quickbuck]

500 production? What's wrong with 650 production, we already have it. Re 250 numbers, bout 12 at last round here, and that was minus a few regulars. But really, they're only lapping around bucket/streetstock times and the rider demograph the same. At the same meeting plenty of protwin and 125 activity, this is where the ambitious ones head, and way faster too of course. History shows these two classes produce your new elite. How many have come from 250 prod? None. 250 should be as originally intended, a technical alternative to the 150 two stroke in streetstock. Baillie has done very well, but for the money and effort protwin or 125gp would have served him better.




I hear what you are saying. Yes, the 250 is really just and expensive bucket as far as lap times go. Except we race on big tracks and attend events that the big bikes are at.
BUT where I disagree is not every racer wants to ride a faster bike or be the next Aaron Slight (similar age to me) Some of us want to race within our means....

Pro Twin, yeah, could do but Joe public wonders why you can't keep up with the F3 bikes that look the same.... Yes for me it is about being near the front too...
I guess I would shoot myself in the foot if I got, say, a CBR500 and put it in Pro Twin to develop the concept.... One I can see merit in. As Billy said though it needs to be policed!

I now see why some say bring back F1, F2, F3 and be done with it.

I do really appreciate all the ground work you did for the class in 2009 Oyster. I also appreciate Billy's investment into it too. I was hoping it would be closer to the fields and racing I used to come to Manfeild and see in the early 90's.... But it appears there is the sinister side of it going on within 5 years..... It is a little sad really, as whenever Billy has pointed out something not quite right about my bike I have gone to every effort to rectify it..... I don't seem to have the same effect when I point out things on competitors bikes...



Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

[jellywrestler]

Agreed re the 21st century mate. In my eyes, mnz has NOT been functioning well at all since we lost Sandra Perry, many bloody moons ago.

the worlds changed a lot with the interweb since Sandra was around, it's a lot tougher job than it ever was.
what do you mean mr Chow about the dirt bike scene has already done it? please elaborate

[Billy]

the worlds changed a lot with the interweb since Sandra was around, it's a lot tougher job than it ever was.
what do you mean mr Chow about the dirt bike scene has already done it? please elaborate

Well you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see the extra investment in the "Backflips" motorcross champs,That was achieved by having what I have been asking for,For 2 years,One person organising and liasing with prospective contributors and then the funds actually being used for the series intended,As it stands with roadracing we are given a set budget to fund the commission for the whole 12 months,But see NONE of any sponsorship that is arranged and the clubs are left to pick up any scraps for their prospective rounds AFTthe "Sponsorship committee" have finished so there can be no conflict,That generally doesn't happen until late October.

[RobGassit]

Having just read the MNZ Constitution, (3.5) and The Code of Conduct, (xi) it strikes me that the opportunity was there for action to be taken against the actual bike builders in many of these cases, rather than the kid's riding them. A sticking point though would be if the builder was neither a member of an MNZ affiliated club or an MNZ race licence holder, is he then immune to any action. It would theoretically be possible for someone untouchable by MNZ to operate in any way they chose, assuming they didn't care what action was taken against the rider.

This is making the grand assumption of course,,,that MNZ was actually capable to carry out and follow through on any disciplinary action that could survive the Appeal Committee. Nobody will care about being bitten by a dog with a loud bark and no teeth. At worst,, you get a nasty suck on the ankle, at best you get to operate as you wish, take Championships, and gloat at all who will listen at how bloody clever you were. Some are still patting themselves on the back for cheating in the 70's and 80's. It's all been done before,,,and some admire them for getting away with it..

[slowpoke]

The entry level was aimed at club level,Unless of course you expect us to have 2 seperate classes with 2 seperate sets of rules.

The gearbox undercutting was requested as a safety rulechange as the Ninja in particular has a habit of jumping out of gear(Typical Kawasaki gearbox) AND as mentioned earlier as the appendix states "If its not mentioned ,It must remain OEM" As the gearbox IS mentioned then it is allowed,Thought even you couldve worked that out,Opened the door....Where???? Oh yea I get it,Because we allow the machining of the gearbox in the interests of safety,It automatically means go ballistic aye....Now who's taking the piss???

So if the class is suddenly serious,The rules go out the door....Again,Now who's taking the piss???

I must admit,I'm really going to miss the expert opinion you once in a blue moon racers with mountains of expertise that know absolutely EVERYTHING offer.....NOT,Have a nice life Spud,Its been well worth my while putting in the hard yards so you can achieve your 3 meetings a year,MNZ would be crippled without peeps like you.

Haha, too funny! As I pushed the submit button on my post I said to myself: wait for the predictable personal attack....wait....aaaaaand VOILA!

What's the point in defending myself, for that matter why should an MNZ member even have too? Unless we're part of the Purple Circle it's your way or the highway......it's agree with you or cop the personal attack. Time to speak with my feet and leave you to it, the MNZ card is in the bin. My wallet and my missus will be breathing sighs of relief......as are you no doubt, lol.

Seriously, you work like a bloody trojan Billy, I know you are a good bloke despite butting heads with you, and I wish you all the best.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Seriously, you work like a bloody trojan Billy, I know you are a good bloke despite butting heads with you, and I wish you all the best.

He is indeed a top bloke, and MNZ will be far poorer for his departure. Come VMXing...no MNZ there!

[The Chow]

the worlds changed a lot with the interweb since Sandra was around, it's a lot tougher job than it ever was.
what do you mean mr Chow about the dirt bike scene has already done it? please elaborate

Mr Jelly , Clubs walking all over the place. Heard MNZ membership this year has dropped. Example: Dirt Riding Federation ( Been around for years , started by John Cobb in Auckland in the 1990's). Greg Power Running highly successful events including at Paeroa this year. Summercross in Whakatane the biggest or at least one of the biggest (over 500 entrants some years) run by a club that is not been affiliated for years with MNZ and done an outstanding job of controlling their own destiny. Also don't forget VMX series. (old dirt bikes).

Having Clubs running stuff is an old model of doing things IMAO , but anyone that was at the MNZ AGM last year would have seen that , when I spat the dummy. It is time for a new look to things I reckon (Just my opinion I might add).

[RobGassit]

This would be the perfect time for the MNZ President, through official channels, to step up and set a clear direction to all his Road Racing members that he acknowledges the threat to the credibility and the future of the 250 Production Class. Some decisive direction is immediately required, even if it means pulling the pin on the remaining 250 National Rounds until control of the class is retained. With the current vacuum of outgoing Road Race Commissioner, Stewards and Officials, the silence is deafening. His own Constitution provides him with his responsibilities at this time. If he does nothing, he proves without doubt, he is a hollow figurehead and should resign. Step up or step off Jim!

[Billy]

Haha, too funny! As I pushed the submit button on my post I said to myself: wait for the predictable personal attack....wait....aaaaaand VOILA!

What's the point in defending myself, for that matter why should an MNZ member even have too? Unless we're part of the Purple Circle it's your way or the highway......it's agree with you or cop the personal attack. Time to speak with my feet and leave you to it, the MNZ card is in the bin. My wallet and my missus will be breathing sighs of relief......as are you no doubt, lol.

Seriously, you work like a bloody trojan Billy, I know you are a good bloke despite butting heads with you, and I wish you all the best.

So to recap,Its okay for you to accuse me of taking the piss,But if I defend myself,Its a personal attack???Haha WHATEVER!!!!

I'm guessing your card landed in the bin 3rd or 4th but most definitely after mine,I don't hold grudges despite what you hear and I most definitely single people out for attention by association as I was recently accused,Thats their insecurities NOT mine,I'm sure Choppa and Marcus can atest to that.Hope to catch up for a beer and chinwag at some stage......Maybe at a golfcourse haha

[Billy]

This would be the perfect time for the MNZ President, through official channels, to step up and set a clear direction to all his Road Racing members that he acknowledges the threat to the credibility and the future of the 250 Production Class. Some decisive direction is immediately required, even if it means pulling the pin on the remaining 250 National Rounds until control of the class is retained. With the current vacuum of outgoing Road Race Commissioner, Stewards and Officials, the silence is deafening. His own Constitution provides him with his responsibilities at this time. If he does nothing, he proves without doubt, he is a hollow figurehead and should resign. Step up or step off Jim!

UNLESS,

Theres more going on than the average member knows.

[MVnut]

REALLY!!!!!

Worst EVER??? Entries for the first 2 rounds of NZSBK 2014 were UP 50% over 2013.On that basis 2013 must have been thw worst ever??

Yip,Its definitely not in the best state it's ever been,But the statement "worst ever" is most definitely a wee exaggeration,Sounds like you didn't get what you want,But PLENTY of others did.

Sorry to disappoint but I don't have an agenda. You may not have seen the ??? after my worst ever but they were there meaning we are going downhill. ...and wanting other points of view (as you mention 2013 had lower entries) . Also I was speaking of the general state of the sport as opposed only to entries in NZSBK. I am now a spectator although I have in the past been competitor, coach and sponsor in more than one country. May I pose a question or two? Why do we no longer have scrutineering at the majority of meetings? Do you think there are an increasing number of officials who do not know (or follow) the rules? (I saw some major f**kups at National level in the last few years)

[Biggles08]

I'm sure Choppa and Marcus can atest to that...

Shit!!!! Dont tell him to ask me what I think about you! :motu:

[Shaun Harris]

Having just read the MNZ Constitution, (3.5) and The Code of Conduct, (xi) it strikes me that the opportunity was there for action to be taken against the actual bike builders in many of these cases, rather than the kid's riding them. A sticking point though would be if the builder was neither a member of an MNZ affiliated club or an MNZ race licence holder, is he then immune to any action. It would theoretically be possible for someone untouchable by MNZ to operate in any way they chose, assuming they didn't care what action was taken against the rider.

This is making the grand assumption of course,,,that MNZ was actually capable to carry out and follow through on any disciplinary action that could survive the Appeal Committee. Nobody will care about being bitten by a dog with a loud bark and no teeth. At worst,, you get a nasty suck on the ankle, at best you get to operate as you wish, take Championships, and gloat at all who will listen at how bloody clever you were. Some are still patting themselves on the back for cheating in the 70's and 80's. It's all been done before,,,and some admire them for getting away with it..



This is copy of a loosly written email I sent to the powers that be a few back regarding this bullshit situation Rob and in reference to the first part of your post above. The wording is a mess, but you will see and understand the intent of it, I for one want the Adult team owner sponsor cheaters GONE FOR GOOD!!!!!


>
>> Hi Team
>>
>> I am writing this with reference to the current case of 16 year old
>> Bailie
>> Perrington.
>>
>> I am hopeing you will see my logic in this out of the best interests for
>> the sport and any young up and coming rider now and in the future.
>>
>> Where are rider such as Bailie is discluded from a meeting for
>> explisitlly
>> a machine that does not comply with the regulations, I believe the TEAM
>> OWNER should be excluded from the MNZ society for ever!




>>
>> HOW TO CONTROL THIS
>>
>> As a person under the legal age of 16 cannot sign a legal contract, any
>> rider under the age of 18 must be entered on there own MNZ licence
>> number
>> as well as a MNZ Licenced TEAM OWNER MEMBER!
>>
>> The point to this is try and stop the cheating that goes on with the
>> good
>> will of dads and sponsors.
>>
>> My wording may be messy, but I am sure this can rearranged to fit the
>> bill
>> of my opinion.
>>

[MVnut]

This is copy of a loosly written email I sent to the powers that be a few back regarding this bullshit situation Rob and in reference to the first part of your post above. The wording is a mess, but you will see and understand the intent of it, I for one want the Adult team owner sponsor cheaters GONE FOR GOOD!!!!!


>
>> Hi Team
>>
>> I am writing this with reference to the current case of 16 year old
>> Bailie
>> Perrington.
>>
>> I am hopeing you will see my logic in this out of the best interests for
>> the sport and any young up and coming rider now and in the future.
>>
>> Where are rider such as Bailie is discluded from a meeting for
>> explisitlly
>> a machine that does not comply with the regulations, I believe the TEAM
>> OWNER should be excluded from the MNZ society for ever!




>>
>> HOW TO CONTROL THIS
>>
>> As a person under the legal age of 16 cannot sign a legal contract, any
>> rider under the age of 18 must be entered on there own MNZ licence
>> number
>> as well as a MNZ Licenced TEAM OWNER MEMBER!
>>
>> The point to this is try and stop the cheating that goes on with the
>> good
>> will of dads and sponsors.
>>
>> My wording may be messy, but I am sure this can rearranged to fit the
>> bill
>> of my opinion.
>>

Damn straight mate, I completely agree

[jellywrestler]

Why do we no longer have scrutineering at the majority of meetings? Do you think there are an increasing number of officials who do not know (or follow) the rules? (I saw some major f**kups at National level in the last few years)

scrutinneering when it happens is to ensure the bike is safe, not it's legality

[MVnut]

scrutinneering when it happens is to ensure the bike is safe, not it's legality

I'm not that thick mate, I know what scrutineering is all about, I want to know why we no longer employ it as general practice, I've seen a fair few shitters out on track that shouldn't be there

[jellywrestler]

I'm not that thick mate, I know what scrutineering is all about, I want to know why we no longer employ it as general practice, I've seen a fair few shitters out on track that shouldn't be there

silly me, thought this was a thread about bike eligibility...
part of the issue is the modern day legal system, scrutineer a bike, someone goes and works on it and that work fails and causes a crash and the enquiry pin points the scrutineer, and the legal system rams them. if you see shitters out there do you make it known to the officials?

[Shaun Harris]

Yep I am a screw loose and all ways have been an all ways will be, FUK getting mature! Yep I have been a wanker on here over the last few years, but am confident that folk can now see I have finally settled down to a level low enough to play hand ball up against a gutter consistently, and consistency is the key to all things in life to move forward and to be relied upon.

I have been involved in Motorcycle racing for around 25 years now and have done and seen some amazing things that most can only dream of doing, and have met and made some awsome contacts in the game world wide.

I have managed a World championship 250cc Grand prix team for one season, so dealt with serious officuldim.

The point to all this is, I want to offer myself in any way towards being a part of the future growth of motorcycle racing in New Zealand, but to make this happen seriously Road racing needs to URGENTLY leave MNZ in the back ground as the licence and permit issueres only!

Time for the NEW future of Road Racing in NZ to be set up and managed totally in house.

[MVnut]

Yep I am a screw loose and all ways have been an all ways will be, FUK getting mature! Yep I have been a wanker on here over the last few years, but am confident that folk can now see I have finally settled down to a level low enough to play hand ball up against a gutter consistently, and consistency is the key to all things in life to move forward and to be relied upon.

I have been involved in Motorcycle racing for around 25 years now and have done and seen some amazing things that most can only dream of doing, and have met and made some awsome contacts in the game world wide.

I have managed a World championship 250cc Grand prix team for one season, so dealt with serious officuldim.

The point to all this is, I want to offer myself in any way towards being a part of the future growth of motorcycle racing in New Zealand, but to make this happen seriously Road racing needs to URGENTLY leave MNZ in the back ground as the licence and permit issueres only!

Time for the NEW future of Road Racing in NZ to be set up and managed totally in house.
I'd vote for ya

[MVnut]

silly me, thought this was a thread about bike eligibility...
part of the issue is the modern day legal system, scrutineer a bike, someone goes and works on it and that work fails and causes a crash and the enquiry pin points the scrutineer, and the legal system rams them. if you see shitters out there do you make it known to the officials?

Well the thread started off that way.................but progressed. (in my opinion) Yes I've pointed shitters out to officials, generally they couldn't care less, simply stating 'we no longer have scrutineering' ...what a croc of shit (how does your comment re riding to work apply to non road legal motorcycles)

[Crasherfromwayback]

I have been involved in Motorcycle racing for around 25 years now and have done and seen some amazing things that most can only dream of doing, and have met and made some awsome contacts in the game world wide.

.

Yep. Despite the fact we've butted heads on more than one occasion, no one can ever deny you that!

[RobGassit]

UNLESS

Theres more going on than the average member knows.

Maybe, meanwhile,,, the coalface of the class are making decisions, with the last rounds coming up, secret squirrel might find that when he finally comes up with a tree hole, all the nuts have gone!

[Shaun Harris]

Yep. Despite the fact we've butted heads on more than one occasion, no one can ever deny you that!





We have but have moved on like good big kids, and again I apologise for the shit I was saying and doing, I did not even know who or what the real Shaun Harris was or a very long time mate. The point to my speal above was simply, I have so much passion an interest for our sport that I will take any roll that anyone wants to offer me to help the growth of our sport.





I'd vote for ya



Thankyou MV

[RobGassit]

[QUOTE=Moto-Dynamix;1130686863]We have but have moved on like good big kids, and again I apologise for the shit I was saying and doing, I did not even know who or what the real Shaun Harris was or a very long time mate. The point to my speal above was simply, I have so much passion an interest for our sport that I will take any roll that anyone wants to offer me to help the growth of our sport.

There's an opening on the dummy grid for an official with guts to say " You can't race that till it meets Regs and sub regs".

[Shaun Harris]

[QUOTE=Moto-Dynamix;1130686863]We have but have moved on like good big kids, and again I apologise for the shit I was saying and doing, I did not even know who or what the real Shaun Harris was or a very long time mate. The point to my speal above was simply, I have so much passion an interest for our sport that I will take any roll that anyone wants to offer me to help the growth of our sport.

There's an opening on the dummy grid for an official with guts to say " You can't race that till it meets Regs and sub regs".






If I get offered a roll mate, One thing is GAURANTEED no matter who you are, that dept will be operated to the letter of the rules/sub regs simply.

You will not miss riders breifing etc and be allowed to race. And the list of negative go on.

Like me or not I would not care, as long as the sport is going forward

[Drew]

I'm probably just gonna start another shit slinging session with Shaun here, but I'm not known for holding my tongue.

Are you cunts all fucking retarded? Have you such short memories, that you trust Shaun won't go off his meds for a few days and fuck an entire race meeting...or worse?

I'm sorry man, I have fuck all against you personally. But for people to be openly and publicly supporting you for an official's position within the sport is unacceptable to me.

There is a very fucking long history of you being less than stable, one that would do our sport no good in the slightest were there a hint of regression.

I hope you don't take this as an attack, that is definitely not my intent. Just calling it like I see it.

[Shaun Harris]

I'm probably just gonna start another shit slinging session with Shaun here, but I'm not known for holding my tongue.

Are you cunts all fucking retarded? Have you such short memories, that you trust Shaun won't go off his meds for a few days and fuck an entire race meeting...or worse?

I'm sorry man, I have fuck all against you personally. But for people to be openly and publicly supporting you for an official's position within the sport is unacceptable to me.

There is a very fucking long history of you being less than stable, one that would do our sport no good in the slightest were there a hint of regression.

I hope you don't take this as an attack, that is definitely not my intent. Just calling it like I see it.


I do not take it as an attack Drew and good on you for speaking up. I actually have not been on any meds for over 12 months now mate, it turns out I was miss diagnoised and the meds I was given were actually causing more ups and downs with mood swings than you can imagine mate. I know who and what I am are, and know the real old Shaun harris is back in place up stairs again finally after so dam long. And friends that have known me since I was 6 years old all agree. Making decissions based on my postings on here is not the real world smart way to make those decissions though man, deffinately some thing to take in to considreration, but things DO change over time dude.

If I am not offered a roll it will not destroy me, but honestly the sport in generall would be loosing a wealth of passion and of knoledge and contacts from that decision.

[Drew]

If I am not offered a roll it will not destroy me, but honestly the sport in generall would be loosing a wealth of passion and of knoledge and contacts from that decision.I'm not suggesting you wouldn't be a great asset to the sport/club, I just don't want you as an official at a meeting.

Edit: Some time back, I even suggested you do get involved. I offered that if you did, I would match you hour for hour in whatever capacity someone like me could be found to actually help.

[Shaun Harris]

I'm not suggesting you wouldn't be a great asset to the sport/club, I just don't want you as an official at a meeting.

Edit: Some time back, I even suggested you do get involved. I offered that if you did, I would match you hour for hour in whatever capacity someone like me could be found to actually help.




I do not care if I am there just to sweep the floor man, I do not need to classified as a hat wearer to help the sport. It takes a team to make stuff happen and there is always a leader in a team enviroment to work under and with and I will happily work with and for the team if big changes are made, and by big changes I mean, a BREAK AWAY SERIES FULL STOP

Nothing to do with the current crap handling by the huntly office and nothing to do with any of the current officuals on the Board accepting Billy and Jim T.

[nodrog]

I do not care if I am there just to sweep the floor man, I do not need to classified as a hat wearer to help the sport. It takes a team to make stuff happen and there is always a leader in a team enviroment to work under and with and I will happily work with and for the team if big changes are made, and by big changes I mean, a BREAK AWAY SERIES FULL STOP

Nothing to do with the current crap handling by the huntly office and nothing to do with any of the current officuals on the Board accepting Billy and Jim T.

Arent you moving to the UK to start your sidecar racing career?

[bucketracer]

.... its been skimmed, ... which will also retard the cam timing .... anyway I can't see that as a gain. ...... Edited so it makes sense.
SS90, for someone who holds themselves out to be an experienced engine tuner supposedly, with lots of hands on dyno time, you should have known that retarding the cam timing retards the inlet closing point and that in itself can be a significant top end power gain on a standard motor.

[Billy]

Edited so it makes sense.


Actually, with a little research or real world tuning knowledge you would have known that retarding the cam timing retards the inlet closing point and can be a significant top end power gain on a standard motor.

Bingo!!!! And if you do it by remove metal from the gasket surfaces,Raises the compression and closes the squish at the same time,Instant rocketship,Use it as you need it !!!!!

Oh and if you live in the South Island,HPE Engineering in Christchurch will do it for you by machining the cases,Very hard to detect and prove, $120 and they'll need your cases for around a week

[Yow Ling]

Bingo!!!! And if you do it by remove metal from the gasket surfaces,Raises the compression and closes the squish at the same time,Instant rocketship,Use it as you need it !!!!!

Oh and if you live in the South Island,HPE Engineering in Christchurch will do it for you by machining the cases,Very hard to detect and prove, $120 and they'll need your cases for around a week

Dont belive it, he wouldnt fit a spark plug for only $120.

[jellywrestler]

Arent you moving to the UK to start your sidecar racing career?

while it's dark over the UK it's light here and vice versa so he'll be able to do both jobs in the daytime and as it's night at the other side they won't clash.

[Billy]

Dont belive it, he wouldnt fit a spark plug for only $120.

I would not be in a position to argue with you,

Just passing on the info he supplied for a job done

[Shaun Harris]

while it's dark over the UK it's light here and vice versa so he'll be able to do both jobs in the daytime and as it's night at the other side they won't clash.






If either or both happen the interweb is a wonderfull thing, jobs are being done as we type

[Kickaha]

Dont belive it, he wouldnt fit a spark plug for only $120.
He would also need them for 4-5 months and it still wouldn't be done


You will not miss riders breifing etc and be allowed to race.
One particular rider would be minus a few NZ Titles if that had ever been enforced

[SS90]

As one who has been blueprinting motors for a very long time, Shaun, I suggest you read the intro to 250 Production in the MNZ rule book - particularly note 2. This is an invitation to blueprinting....You can't blame people for walking in.

If the intent of the rules was to run dead standard, as received bikes, it's a fail.
If the intent was to allow sensible mods which probably extend engine life, it works.

we have both been around long enough to remember certain makes and models which absolutely had to be blueprinted to even last one race meeting.....

What interests me in all this hooha is the suggestion that this bike ran a close ratio box.....Can anyone actually point to a source of supply for one ?

Out of curiosity Greg, where do you stand on "blue printing" of production 250 engines? (If the rules can be read to permit it or not)

[SS90]

But one thing has remained true...fast bikes or not...the best riders still won. Always will.

Now this is 100 % correct.

Since as long as I have known, many many people have cheated, only to unwittingly (or even unknowingly) build a slower bike, it may feel (or even show) more peak power at some point in the rev range, only to be a flippin donkey or pesky out of the corner.

A couple of Aprilia RS250's running in the final years of 250 production racing in NZ where ported in several ways, than indeed they did have more peak power, only for the slower rider of the two to complain after the (illegal) work it was harder to ride (and he didn't gain any places in the championship after the work either...... And the guys that where showing him the fast way round the track (and also sleeping in tents at the track) where buying his "used" (depends on your perspective really) tyres.... Only to hand his ass a whipping in the next race too.

Barring some phenoinal horsepower and ride ability improvement, a fast rider on a nice smooth power delivery engine, will win, not because they have more power, but because they can ride a motorcycle fast.

# except when you fit a 440 kit to your fzr400 when the rules say maximum cc is 400.... Then you Are a cheating cunt.

[gammaguy]

Now this is 100 % correct.

Since as long as I have known, many many people have cheated, only to unwittingly (or even unknowingly) build a slower bike, it may feel (or even show) more peak power at some point in the rev range, only to be a flippin donkey or pesky out of the corner.

A couple of Aprilia RS250's running in the final years of 250 production racing in NZ where ported in several ways, than indeed they did have more peak power, only for the slower rider of the two to complain after the (illegal) work it was harder to ride (and he didn't gain any places in the championship after the work either...... And the guys that where showing him the fast way round the track (and also sleeping in tents at the track) where buying his "used" (depends on your perspective really) tyres.... Only to hand his ass a whipping in the next race too.

Barring some phenoinal horsepower and ride ability improvement, a fast rider on a nice smooth power delivery engine, will win, not because they have more power, but because they can ride a motorcycle fast.

# except when you fit a 440 kit to your fzr400 when the rules say maximum cc is 400.... Then you Are a cheating cunt.


Or enter an RG500 and tell everybody it's an RG400

Cheating cunts have been around a long time

[suzuki21]

Bingo!!!! And if you do it by remove metal from the gasket surfaces,Raises the compression and closes the squish at the same time,Instant rocketship,Use it as you need it !!!!!

Oh and if you live in the South Island,HPE Engineering in Christchurch will do it for you by machining the cases,Very hard to detect and prove, $120 and they'll need your cases for around a week

It shouldn't be the machinists or engine builders fault. They would have been asked to do it as surely they wouldn't have done extra work for free. If someone gave me a 250 motor and supplied race cams, said to port the head, skim the barrels, and fit a race kit ECU, after I put it together its their problem once its out the door what they do with it. Otherwise every motor in New Zealand would have to be built to stock specs, road bikes included. If a club rider got you to rebuild a motor and supplied race cams should it be the builders fault it was supposedly for a 600 supersport bike but then entered in superstock?

[jellywrestler]

It shouldn't be the machinists or engine builders fault. They would have been asked to do it as surely they wouldn't have done extra work for free. incorrect, I often do a little extra for my customers without charging them, it's building my business and reputation and through that i've a better chance of getting the next job.
KFC don't do a two for one deal because they're feeling generous, it's marketing.

To me there's a set of rules here that are open to interpretation, lock em down, write them betterer.
For example there's a rule stating 'no recording equipment'.
People read it to be 'Oh they're not talking about cameras, they mean all that other data logger shit etc' well do they or don't they want the riders to not run cameras or do they not care, is this an oversight or mean do not run cameras? What's more there has been many vids of 250 production put on the web and has anybody said ANYTHING about it while it was happening either to the competitor or officials, either officially or unofficially???? and that the rule book states 'no recording equipment'

poorly written and open to interpretation.

[Shaun Harris]

It shouldn't be the machinists or engine builders fault. They would have been asked to do it as surely they wouldn't have done extra work for free. If someone gave me a 250 motor and supplied race cams, said to port the head, skim the barrels, and fit a race kit ECU, after I put it together its their problem once its out the door what they do with it. Otherwise every motor in New Zealand would have to be built to stock specs, road bikes included. If a club rider got you to rebuild a motor and supplied race cams should it be the builders fault it was supposedly for a 600 supersport bike but then entered in superstock?





They should be prepared for the back lash though when it is proven the engine builder knew they were building a motor for a class that does not allow machining etc, just as I explained to you on face book days ago when you first said this to me. So what if they are just doing there job, Morals still exist some where in the world I hope

[Shaun Harris]

incorrect, I often do a little extra for my customers without charging them, it's building my business and reputation and through that i've a better chance of getting the next job.
KFC don't do a two for one deal because they're feeling generous, it's marketing.

To me there's a set of rules here that are open to interpretation, lock em down, write them betterer.
For example there's a rule stating 'no recording equipment'.
People read it to be 'Oh they're not talking about cameras, they mean all that other data logger shit etc' well do they or don't they want the riders to not run cameras or do they not care, is this an oversight or mean do not run cameras? What's more there has been many vids of 250 production put on the web and has anybody said ANYTHING about it while it was happening either to the competitor or officials, either officially or unofficially???? and that the rule book states 'no recording equipment'

poorly written and open to interpretation.






Then the rules are proof read and re written by a lawyer or what ever, but as they do not understand our game, the words they choose to use are often still left open to interpretation. The rules need writting by a person who can use a dictionery and knows how to build bikes and motors, so all the grey areas are covered.

[Grumph]

Out of curiosity Greg, where do you stand on "blue printing" of production 250 engines? (If the rules can be read to permit it or not)

If i read it as legal - I'd do it. Besides the obvious potential performance increase, there are other benefits. Some of the engines I've blueprinted have gone on to have long lives on the road after their race careers are finished. Simply correcting factory assembly errors has ensured a longer service life.

Having read Oyster's posts i tend to agree that the problem started as soon as it became a National class with a title available...In my book, any class in the book as bearing a title is fair game for the people wanting to spend cash....So make those classes open.

Back to F1, F2, F3....

I'm not going to bag HPE, I know Gav quite well. Like a lot of engine reconditioner machinists, he will do what the customer wants. If the customer tells what it's going to be used for, fair enough, there may be eyebrows raised....if not, no questions. Just pay the bill please sir, we're a commercial organisation with staff to keep employed.

[Grumph]

Then the rules are proof read and re written by a lawyer or what ever, but as they do not understand our game, the words they choose to use are often still left open to interpretation. The rules need writting by a person who can use a dictionery and knows how to build bikes and motors, so all the grey areas are covered.

That's your most sensible post yet shaun...

[Kiwi Graham]

Then the rules are proof read and re written by a lawyer or what ever, but as they do not understand our game, the words they choose to use are often still left open to interpretation. The rules need writting by a person who can use a dictionery and knows how to build bikes and motors, so all the grey areas are covered.

Thats the nail hit fairly and squarely on the head right there...........



I used to work for a small privateer world endurance team and we had bloody lawyers looking at rule interpretation should there be a need for defence in an effort to maximise our strategy from an engineering perspective.

[oyster]

Then the rules are proof read and re written by a lawyer or what ever, but as they do not understand our game, the words they choose to use are often still left open to interpretation. The rules need writting by a person who can use a dictionery and knows how to build bikes and motors, so all the grey areas are covered.

Right on it Shaun. A good example was the 600 tyre allocation. Until this season the rules clearly stated the allocation was "per round" Now I would have thought "the round" began at sign in. This is when all the process of that championship round begins. Am I right? So the tyres should have been marked as they went out for the first practice. 90% of riders used more than the allocation, as they had extra tyres used in practice/qualifying. I would love to have seen a protest after the races on that matter! How to wipe out 90% of the feild!

[Shaun Harris]

That's your most sensible post yet shaun...




Shit I will have to get up earlier often then. I have asked/offered to do this job many times, but but but but

[Billy]

Right on it Shaun. A good example was the 600 tyre allocation. Until this season the rules clearly stated the allocation was "per round" Now I would have thought "the round" began at sign in. This is when all the process of that championship round begins. Am I right? So the tyres should have been marked as they went out for the first practice. 90% of riders used more than the allocation, as they had extra tyres used in practice/qualifying. I would love to have seen a protest after the races on that matter! How to wipe out 90% of the feild!

The tyre allocation was as you have described for this year and has been enforced in that exact fashion,

Many were not happy about it and claimed it was unsafe practice,In the meantime,Those that actually read the supp regs when they were released,Knew and planned their season to suit,Those that didn't thought the rule would be changed to suit them.

[jellywrestler]

Right on it Shaun. A good example was the 600 tyre allocation. Until this season the rules clearly stated the allocation was "per round" Now I would have thought "the round" began at sign in. This is when all the process of that championship round begins. Am I right? So the tyres should have been marked as they went out for the first practice. 90% of riders used more than the allocation, as they had extra tyres used in practice/qualifying. I would love to have seen a protest after the races on that matter! How to wipe out 90% of the feild!

good point Peter, so how about someone in the know clarifying for me what friday practice is classed as at the nationals. do bikes have to be fully within the rules etc for that day, do riders have the same on track disciplines, ie drop a bike; no returning to pits. pray tell me.