Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement

[Ocean1]

Politicians are only ever out for what looks good on paper in time for the next election.

Probably. But a large part of what looks good on paper actually is good for the people who voted for them. Of course those that didn't want it and voted elsewhere can only claim that the majority are gullible idiots. Meh.

They already have their exit strategys lined up with cushy corporate jobs with their masters or like Aunty Helen a job at the UN for cowtowing to their PC demands of changes to our society, anti smacking, no fireplaces etc...

Their masters? Isn't it more likely their abilities and experience simply made them more suitable for such roles? Occam's razor, dude, don't go inventing complicated motives when simple ones describe the situation. Their masters ffs.

There is nothing to be gained by allowing free trade with a nation whose workers are on slave wages.

No? What about reducing most of the world's population living in extreme poverty to fuck all?

We are exporting jobs with things like timber raw materials that could instead be processed here to create secondary industry.
Very rapidly all low skilled manufacturing jobs are being off shored. Trouble is our education system cant evolve fast enough to train our kids for the new future ahead, certainly the politicians are doing nothing about it.

Again with the govt's fault. What are the kids and their parents doing about training for the new future ahead?

And as we are now educating the rest of the world via our universities and polytechs it wont be long before even skilled jobs like welding are offshored. It will be done so cheap that the job will be emailed to say Indonesia and be here on a boat a couple weeks later.

Allowing you to buy welded products at a fraction of the cost. Swings and roundabouts.

Look back to the days before free trade and how successful and secure our nation was. And when imported goods are expensive only quality is accepted instead of the rubbish disposable goods we get now.

Protectionism was successful? Fuck me were you not paying attention when Ford NZ made the most outrageous shit possible? On the days they weren't on strike... When the govt charged you more to import shit than the shit costs to supply? When the unions on the BNZ site killed the structural steel industry in NZ stone cold dead? Sorry mate, if you think huge import tariffs guaranteeing high wage jobs for producing fuck all of value are the way to go then you slept through most of the 60's and 70's. It was shit. It was shit when the Japanese tried it, it was shit when the Russian tried it and it'll be shit for fucking Africa for everyone if we allow the anti-globalisation rabble to reinvent that particular brand of socialism.

[gjm]

The 'news' says that Tim Groser is suggesting NZ may not participate in this trade deal; this would be the fallout/aftermath of the US House of Representatives (Republican majority - pretty much anti anything Obama or the Democrats suggest).

Of course, other news channels spin this differently. One suggests TPPA is "crucial" for NZ. Another says the loss of the "potential" $3bn of trade (no mention of when that would be realised, or the cost associated) would be sad but NZ would cope. NZ might have, were it not for the current borrowing situation, and I can't help wondering if that might not be leveraged to coerce assent to sign.

This is a significant part of the problem. Snippets of the TPPA have been released, and in isolation form a damning indictment of over-zealous and secretive political shenanigans. The 'bad' info we have seen may be balanced if the rest of the docs were available, but the way these things are reported is also twisting perspective. John Key spins the positive and completely sidesteps any potential negativity. Consummate politician.

The press sell copy based on sensationalism, and the best way to stir people up is to tell them someone has it in for them.

So, where is the TRUTH? I dislike National and their continued policy of selling NZ to the highest bidder which leaves me predisposed to believe the anti-TPPA brigade. Any argument from either side can be readily countered because we just do not know everything we need to, to be able to make an accurate assessment.

None of what has been released has been denied. Maybe there is much, much worse hiding in the rest of the agreement?

[puddytat]

Protectionism was successful? Fuck me were you not paying attention when Ford NZ made the most outrageous shit possible? On the days they weren't on strike... When the govt charged you more to import shit than the shit costs to supply? When the unions on the BNZ site killed the structural steel industry in NZ stone cold dead? Sorry mate, if you think huge import tariffs guaranteeing high wage jobs for producing fuck all of value are the way to go then you slept through most of the 60's and 70's. It was shit. It was shit when the Japanese tried it, it was shit when the Russian tried it and it'll be shit for fucking Africa for everyone if we allow the anti-globalisation rabble to reinvent that particular brand of socialism.

Riiiiight..............so what is to say that it couldn't be done better this time? The times have changed a lot .The rules have changed even more.

But a lot of peoples opinions are still stuck way back then.

[oldrider]

Riiiiight..............so what is to say that it couldn't be done better this time? The times have changed a lot .The rules have changed even more.

But a lot of peoples opinions are still stuck way back then.

Historical evidence suggests it would all go straight back the way it was before - not enough time has passed to break the mould. (Appropriate English spelling) :whistle:

[Brian d marge]

I have just planted this years herb garden

Im all right jack

Stephen

Oh btw that bike rego is a bit steep aint it ...oh well mustnt grumble eh .....

[Voltaire]

Protectionism was successful? Fuck me were you not paying attention when Ford NZ made the most outrageous shit possible? On the days they weren't on strike... When the govt charged you more to import shit than the shit costs to supply? When the unions on the BNZ site killed the structural steel industry in NZ stone cold dead? Sorry mate, if you think huge import tariffs guaranteeing high wage jobs for producing fuck all of value are the way to go then you slept through most of the 60's and 70's. It was shit. It was shit when the Japanese tried it, it was shit when the Russian tried it and it'll be shit for fucking Africa for everyone if we allow the anti-globalisation rabble to reinvent that particular brand of socialism.

I remember those days.
What we have now is the natural progression from trading.
NZ is just too small to have any say.
There are a lot of cashed up Chinese out there....scary times.
The Chinese have done to the Americans what they did to the Brits post WW2.
Time to sell up and move to Gore.<_<

[Ocean1]

I remember those days.
What we have now is the natural progression from trading.
NZ is just too small to have any say.
There are a lot of cashed up Chinese out there....scary times.
The Chinese have done to the Americans what they did to the Brits post WW2.
Time to sell up and move to Gore.<_<

Aye, trading with the rest of the world. Might as well say living in the real world. Worth noting that the one outcome we don't need is for all of our current trading partners agreeing to deal with each other... except us.

NZ has done outstandingly well in previous agreements, as that wee chart that amused Steven demonstrated. Maybe the smallest voice that can fit at a trade agreement table is still bigger than our population should carry. Although we've had some damned fine people on our team over the years, maybe we earned it.

And the Chinese are simply doing for the cost of capital what they did for cost of labour: selling it for what it's worth to them. Can't really argue. Until they start with the American tactics in isolating a market and monopolising it.

And dude, form Kaitaia to Bluff, this IS Gore.

[gjm]

And the Chinese are simply doing for the cost of capital what they did for cost of labour: selling it for what it's worth to them. Can't really argue. Until they start with the American tactics in isolating a market and monopolising it.

And, on that note... NZ to join new Asian investment bank (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/276332/nz-to-join-new-asian-investment-bank)

[Brian d marge]

And, on that note... NZ to join new Asian investment bank (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/276332/nz-to-join-new-asian-investment-bank)
Repost hahaha sorry
You could see that coming a mile off
Nz joining the bank

Ihave 2 thoughts

What are the powers that be really up to
China russia have gold the west isnt so hot in that area
The real money is in hong kong?

And what backlash can we expect from the jewsa


Follow this smell back and see where it leads ....

As National Security Advisor under Nixon, Kissinger pioneered the policy of détente (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9tente) with the Soviet Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union), seeking a relaxation in tensions between the two superpowers. As a part of this strategy, he negotiated the Strategic Arms Limitation Talks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Arms_Limitation_Talks) (culminating in the SALT I treaty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SALT_I_treaty)) and the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Ballistic_Missile_Treaty) with Leonid Brezhnev (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Brezhnev), General Secretary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Secretary_of_the_Communist_Party_of_the_So viet_Union) of the Soviet Communist Party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union). Negotiations about strategic disarmament were originally supposed to start under the Johnson Administration but were postponed in protest to the invasion by Warsaw Pact troops of Czechoslovakia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring) in August 1968.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Kissinger_Mao.jpg/220px-Kissinger_Mao.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kissinger_Mao.jpg)


Kissinger, shown here with Zhou Enlai (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Enlai) and Mao Zedong (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong), negotiated rapprochement with the People's Republic of China.


Kissinger sought to place diplomatic pressure on the Soviet Union. He made two trips to the People's Republic of China in July and October 1971 (the first of which was made in secret) to confer with Premier Zhou Enlai (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Enlai), then in charge of Chinese foreign policy.[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Kissinger#cite_note-21) According to Kissinger's book, "The White House Years", the first secret China trip was arranged through Pakistan's diplomatic and Presidential involvement that paved the way to initial vital contact with China since the Americans were unable to communicate directly with the Chinese leaders because of earlier cold relations. Kissinger would show his support for the regime in Beijing by supporting their actions during the unrest which included the Tiananmen Square Massacre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_Massacre).[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Kissinger#cite_note-22)
This paved the way for the groundbreaking 1972 summit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_visit_to_China_1972) between Nixon, Zhou, and Communist Party of China (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China) Chairman Mao Zedong (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong), as well as the formalization of relations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-American_relations) between the two countries, ending 23 years of diplomatic isolation and mutual hostility. The result was the formation of a tacit strategic anti-Soviet alliance between China and the United States.


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[gjm]

Corporate lobbying in the US has been successful (doubtless several millions of dollars has changed hands) and the Fast Track Authority has been approved.

This is a big step towards the TPPA.

In the meantime, even Joe American is getting angry as they see this as US workers being sold out to increase corporate profit.

[awa355]

I read something today that said if the TPPA came in, that parallel importing would become illegal. (amongst other things).

[Scuba_Steve]

I read something today that said if the TPPA came in, that parallel importing would become illegal. (amongst other things).

Good for the consumers right <_<

[Brian d marge]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/23/13e5c59c700971e86915fb6e35d4cd4e.jpg

I wonder where the data came from

Peewwwww

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[blue rider]

saw this

For those not familiar with Keynian English I offer a translation:

“From what I’ve seen at the moment…”
oh hai journalist! I’m good. How is TPPA?

“…if in theory we froze time…”
Well what I say next has no context, so

“… and concluded the deal…”
if something premature and reckless ended well for me,

“…as I see it, it’s net positive for New Zealand…”
then my life would continue along pretty good.

“…. But it wouldn’t be doing enough for dairy…”
Even our most loyal supporters would be well and truely rat-fucked, though,

“… for us to be comfortable…”
and we’d be scared we might not make it to the airport, alive,

“… and we would like to do some more there.”
but if we did we’d feel really good again, fleeing your pathetic housing bubble, with matching ruined economy, about to pop.

“…There are a lot of other sectors…”
The World is a big place,

“… that would be very happy about it.”
and extradition from warm tax havens is never assured. Bai!


dairy, who the fuck needs it :)
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11349072
http://www.3news.co.nz/politics/groser-quiet-on-tpp-dairy-tariffs-2014061513#axzz3dxUbIXAK


Dairy in TPPA talks not where we would like it to be...or net positive :)

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1506/S00788/tpp-dairy-deal-not-at-a-level-we-would-currently-like-key.htm

[Brian d marge]

saw this

For those not familiar with Keynian English I offer a translation:

“From what I’ve seen at the moment


dairy, who the fuck needs it :)
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11349072
http://www.3news.co.nz/politics/groser-quiet-on-tpp-dairy-tariffs-2014061513#axzz3dxUbIXAK


Dairy in TPPA talks not where we would like it to be...or net positive :)

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1506/S00788/tpp-dairy-deal-not-at-a-level-we-would-currently-like-key.htm

No NZ
You have got this the wrong way round
Dumbarse

WE tell you if you can join tarriffs or not


Jewnighted states of jewmerica



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[Brian d marge]

Trade Minister Tim Groser

If you want to put a face to scum .... here it is and
A Quote that earns a French haircut would be;

The 'stop the world, we want to get off' crowd, the anti-trade ideological crowd will explain that this is going to cause the civilisation as we know it when it comes out, but we'll be able to carry our case with serious people."

Wnker

[mashman]

Trade Minister Tim Groser

If you want to put a face to scum .... here it is and
A Quote that earns a French haircut would be;

The 'stop the world, we want to get off' crowd, the anti-trade ideological crowd will explain that this is going to cause the civilisation as we know it when it comes out, but we'll be able to carry our case with serious people."

Wnker

Musical interlude


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGOaro9kfS4

[Katman]

http://www.disclose.tv/news/sold_out_tpp_is_the_new_world_order_shut_up_about_ gay_marriage_and_flags/119735?utm_content=buffer9e682&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

[Brian d marge]

bend over sheepies .....

Snip;
Uncle Joe Speaks ;
With the US "re-balance strategy" in the Asia Pacific region, "partners like New Zealand have never been more consequential".
Biden said nowhere was that more clear "than the remarkable progress we've made together on the Trans-Pacific Partnership".
On Monday, Obama secured a major win in the United States Senate when it approved legislation to grant him the power to negotiate trade deals and send them on a fast track through Congress.
The vote was a big step forward and put the prospect of the 12-nation TPP deal into the home straight.

[sugilite]

Well, this TPP thing must be real awesome for the unprecedented occurrence of a vice president of the USA addressing us. - Well thats what they are hoping we will think
Personally for me, it raises a lot more red flags that this is evil at work.

[yokel]

Well, this TPP thing must be real awesome for the unprecedented occurrence of a vice president of the USA addressing us. - Well thats what they are hoping we will think
Personally for me, it raises a lot more red flags that this is evil at work.

just look at that lying cunts expressionless face, he doesn't believe a dam thing he's saying.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/69910752/us-vicepresident-joe-biden-sends-nz-an-independence-day-message

[oldrider]

just look at that lying cunts expressionless face, he doesn't believe a dam thing he's saying.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/69910752/us-vicepresident-joe-biden-sends-nz-an-independence-day-message

He openly claims he is a Zionist - not a Jew but definitely a Zionist - Israel first USA second - New Zealand's interests? - way down the line for that guy! :yawn:

[Brian d marge]

Actually other people have commented about the expressionless eyes , tony blair etc .

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[puddytat]

I cant wait 'till we all start throwing bricks....:woohoo:
Direct action will be the only way to save our country....but it'll be a few years/decades yet.

[Brian d marge]

I cant wait 'till we all start throwing bricks....:woohoo:
Direct action will be the only way to save our country....but it'll be a few years/decades yet.

Unfortunately that is what they want you to do

and as much as I would love to lynch a few in wellington ..... buggering off still rates as the best option

I mean IF a Greece happened to me , say in September

How much money do I have on hand to purchase food ...?? possibly 2 months....

Can I cover a large debt ..... yes Just

Can I survive , without money ...NO ....I have a source of food but it would be under pressure from others who didnt prepare .....

Do I have beer in the house , Yes about a months supply .... and about 2 weeks of food

One does need to get ones shit together ..ASAP I reckon


Stephen

[yokel]

Actually other people have commented about the expressionless eyes , tony blair etc .

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same goes for Obama, It's called monotone,

https://youtu.be/YeuseT7PUR4

[sugilite]

I cant wait 'till we all start throwing bricks....:woohoo:
Direct action will be the only way to save our country....but it'll be a few years/decades yet.
I feel it could well happen a lot sooner, and hope it does. Not the throwing bricks but large scale marches, protests. I hope we as a nation find our balls again and start standing up to the Governments and their multinational corporate overlords. Judging by the 98% negative comments on said Vice Presidents video stuff article, it has finally started to stir people up.
Personally I would LOVE to see all government ministers and representatives involved in these secret negotiations have their passports suspended until the full TPP agreement has been published, lest they need to be charged with treason for ceding our sovereignty. That would be a nice shot across their bows and make them think very carefully before signing our rights away.

[oldrider]

On current NZ attitudes - this is a foregone conclusion! :yes: And we have "their man" on our helm! - It's a race they can't lose! :corn:

[puddytat]

I wonder if that somewhere in the agreement is provision for more military cooperation.....& the possibility of a U.S base.
You know, protecting their investment & all....:yes:

[Brian d marge]

On current NZ attitudes - this is a foregone conclusion! :yes: And we have "their man" on our helm! - It's a race they can't lose! :corn:
John the jew
Amd there man in the rbnz a paul wolfowiz yes man
The media is covered as well reuters zionst owned
Rupert mad duck fake jew
Fairfax media ,strangely i cant find much out about fairfax it seems to be fair i can see story placement pro usa etc but cant find details on the owners gina rhineheart wss booted off the board last year thats about the depth of the scandal
No true jew news there maybe

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[mashman]

TPP is a done deal (https://nz.news.yahoo.com/top-stories/a/29145242/tpp-is-a-done-deal/)... heh heh heh

[oldrider]

TPP is a done deal (https://nz.news.yahoo.com/top-stories/a/29145242/tpp-is-a-done-deal/)... heh heh heh

This is what John Key was sent back here for - done deal? - it always has been just as long as we continue to pretend to "elect"? him! :rofl:

[Brian d marge]

TPP is a done deal (https://nz.news.yahoo.com/top-stories/a/29145242/tpp-is-a-done-deal/)... heh heh heh
Time to back Maori and take back our country and hold these idiots to account

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[Brian d marge]

This is what John Key was sent back here for - done deal? - it always has been just as long as we continue to pretend to "elect"? him! :rofl:
Well look who is in control of the rbnz

Who gave him that job

Stranglely I cant find the strings for fairfax media . . .but fair

One does wonder



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[mashman]

This is what John Key was sent back here for - done deal? - it always has been just as long as we continue to pretend to "elect"? him! :rofl:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cartoonstock.com/law-order-prison-prisoner-sentence-conspiracy-conspirator-rman14611_low.jpg


Time to back Maori and take back our country and hold these idiots to account

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Not yet. Give it just over a year.

[puddytat]

Jane Kelsey is taking the Govt. to court:niceone:
Good to see someone stand up to them......& as usual its a woman.

[Brian d marge]

Jane Kelsey is taking the Govt. to court:niceone:
Good to see someone stand up to them......& as usual its a woman.
She a good one she is

Just needs to lose the haircut and earings

It like a tramp stamp for wimin



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[Akzle]

Jane Kelsey is taking the Govt. to court:niceone:
Good to see someone stand up to them......& as usual its a woman.

penny bright sues them every other week...
Wimmenz eh

[Brian d marge]

She a good one she is

Just needs to lose the haircut and earings

It like a tramp stamp for wimin



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Buy me a beer you loose woman you

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[awa355]

Was anyone aware of the govt signing this deal? TPPA by stealth to me. I might be reading it wrong but if I am not, National have already started the process of implementing the sell out of public assets.

Referring to the govts decision to sell social housing to … Well, anyone, anywhere, who cares? … This was posted by a ‘David Brown’ today on the Standard.

“… John Key is quietly & slowly bringing out these sell off’s of public assets & privatization of govt services now because he is required to under the WTO govt procurement agreement he quietly signed on the 29th of Oct 2014. which is here- https://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/legal_e/rev-gpr-94_01_e.htm

It’s one of the cornerstones of the TPP along with the TiSA agreements which pretty much well sell off most if not all of our Public Assets and State services to foreign investment.

The WTO GPA ascended into law on August the 1st which would have been on schedule if the TPP was signed in Maui at the end of July. That way everything could have been nicely bundled up and the Public would have been ambushed completely by so many changes hitting them at once. The TiSA agreement would have locked everything in because both the TPP & the TiSA have “Ratchet Clauses” in them which prevent future governments from undoing all of their work and allowing governments to nationalize assets & services in the public interest.

No body is talking about the WTO Govt Procurement Agreement, but it can not be ignored for it’s important role in these trade deals. We can withdraw from the WTO GPA, but we can’t withdraw from TPP or TiSA without severe penalties due to ISDS’s cases & or economic sanctions from the other member states. …”

Can we do nothing to stop the govt selling public assets into private ownership?

[Brian d marge]

Was anyone aware of the govt signing this deal? TPPA by stealth to me. I might be reading it wrong but if I am not, National have already started the process of implementing the sell out of public assets.

Referring to the govts decision to sell social housing to … Well, anyone, anywhere, who cares? … This was posted by a ‘David Brown’ today on the Standard.

“… John Key is quietly & slowly bringing out these sell off’s of public assets & privatization of govt services now because he is required to under the WTO govt procurement agreement he quietly signed on the 29th of Oct 2014. which is here- https://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/legal_e/rev-gpr-94_01_e.htm

It’s one of the cornerstones of the TPP along with the TiSA agreements which pretty much well sell off most if not all of our Public Assets and State services to foreign investment.

The WTO GPA ascended into law on August the 1st which would have been on schedule if the TPP was signed in Maui at the end of July. That way everything could have been nicely bundled up and the Public would have been ambushed completely by so many changes hitting them at once. The TiSA agreement would have locked everything in because both the TPP & the TiSA have “Ratchet Clauses” in them which prevent future governments from undoing all of their work and allowing governments to nationalize assets & services in the public interest.

No body is talking about the WTO Govt Procurement Agreement, but it can not be ignored for it’s important role in these trade deals. We can withdraw from the WTO GPA, but we can’t withdraw from TPP or TiSA without severe penalties due to ISDS’s cases & or economic sanctions from the other member states. …”

Can we do nothing to stop the govt selling public assets into private ownership?

That TISA is a nasty bit of goods

but Ownership is an agreement between 2 parties ..... and if one party doesnt agree ,,,,,the agreement is null and void

like me, selling your house to the fella next door ..... I dont have the authority to do so , and IMHO , the successive government have broken the social contract and therefore do not have authority to sell

NZ property and assets , built and paid for by NZ are the property of NZ . period

IMHO that is

[puddytat]

Can we do nothing to stop the govt selling public assets into private ownership?
Blow shit up......

Shoot some cunts.

[mashman]

Can we do nothing to stop the govt selling public assets into private ownership?

Could use some of that 50/60 billion that billy boy bobsmith borrowed. Failing that, borrow more money.

[carbonhed]

“… John Key is quietly & slowly bringing out these sell off’s of public assets & privatization of govt services now because he is required to under the WTO govt procurement agreement he quietly signed on the 29th of Oct 2014. which is here- https://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/legal_e/rev-gpr-94_01_e.htm



Where does it say in that document that they've got to sell State assets into foreign or private ownership?

[Brian d marge]

Where does it say in that document that they've got to sell State assets into foreign or private ownership?

Washington consensus

[Scuba_Steve]

Best news reporter in NZ at the mo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARs3QyHY5Ok

[Katman]

As the TPPA negotiations get under way again this week in Atlanta, keep this guys face in your mind.

<img src="http://instinctmagazine.com/sites/instinctmagazine.com/files/images/blog_posts/Nigel%20Campbell/2015/09/23/martin%20shkreli2.jpg"/>

This is the face of those who will stand to make a vast fortune out of this agreement.

[Paul in NZ]

This is the face of those who will stand to make a vast fortune out of this agreement.

You mean a vaster fortune.... Cunts already wealthy enough to live several lives in luxury...

[Katman]

You mean a vaster fortune.... Cunts already wealthy enough to live several lives in luxury...

And I'm sure Ocean will be along soon to tell us all how the guy deserves every dollar of it.

[Ocean1]

And I'm sure Ocean will be along soon to tell us all how the guy deserves every dollar of it.

Me? Why would I stick my nose in someone else's business? I'm not paying him.

Are you?

[Brian d marge]

Me? Why would I stick my nose in someone else's business? I'm not paying him.

Are you?
Yes
Im subsidizing the fkers through me tax



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[Ocean1]

Yes
Im subsidizing the fkers through me tax



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Show me....

[mashman]

Show me....

Not that it's any of your business like...

What The Daraprim Price Hike Actually Does To Health Care (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/daraprim-price-turing-shkreli_560063cee4b00310edf82060).

[Ocean1]

Not that it's any of your business like...

What The Daraprim Price Hike Actually Does To Health Care (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/daraprim-price-turing-shkreli_560063cee4b00310edf82060).

Like I said last time you rooted that out: What's its cost to market?

Until you can show that you've got no idea what the price should be.

[Brian d marge]

Show me....
3 people have a house the rent is 12 dollars 2

1 person doesnt pay their share

Check back for a list of companies who have been lets just say using the letter of the law to reduce their tax

Which as you know is legal but may not be ethical


And leaves me paying more than I should

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[Ocean1]

3 people have a house the rent is 12 dollars 2

1 person doesnt pay their share

Check back for a list of companies who have been lets just say using the letter of the law to reduce their tax

Which as you know is legal but may not be ethical


And leaves me paying more than I should

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

And this completely irrelevant waffle is your answer, is it?

[Brian d marge]

And this completely irrelevant waffle is your answer, is it?
How could you fail to understand that

Lets make it simple for the learned

If one fails to pay tax

Others ,me . . .pay more for services provided

Let me know if i need to get the colorful crayons out



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[pritch]

Like I said last time you rooted that out: What's its cost to market?
Until you can show that you've got no idea what the price should be.


Not quite, it is safe to assume the drug is hugely overpriced. That drug has been around sixty odd years, it's not new. The papers mention that is used in AIDS cases but that's just the press doing their sensationalist thing. It has been used for other people with reduced immunity such as infants and people on chemotherapy for a long time.

Just a few years ago the drug cost US$1.00 per pill but the price has risen as the company that produces it has been bought and sold several times. The only explanation I've seen for the increases was that each successive new owner has upped the price. The latest effort by far the largest at $5000%.

Shkreli is a greedy little prick, this is not the first time he has done something similar. He is reportedly involved in a criminal investigation as well as multiple civil actions.

The cost to market the pills is almost irrelevant in the overall scheme of things. If you want to know more just Google "5000%"

[Akzle]

If you want to know more just Google "5000%"

shhhhhhh. Dont mention numbers, you'll confuddle the poor wean.

[TheDemonLord]

How could you fail to understand that

Lets make it simple for the learned

If one fails to pay tax

Others ,me . . .pay more for services provided

Let me know if i need to get the colorful crayons out

Failing to pay tax is Illegal, Using Legal means to pay less tax is Legal.

The same legal means that are open to you and I - if you are really upset about it, by all means talk to an accountant at ways to reduce the amount of tax you pay.

If the problem is those legal means shouldn't exist (and there are decent arguments to be made that they shouldn't) then petition your local MPs to get the Tax loopholes closed.

but complaining about someone doing something that is perfectly legal by simply saying 'well they shouldn't do it' is silly - as a suggestion - if enough people exploited the loopholes and the Government was really hurting for cash - then maybe there would be more of an incentive to do something about them.

[scrivy]

Failing to pay tax is Illegal, Using Legal means to pay less tax is Legal.

The same legal means that are open to you and I - if you are really upset about it, by all means talk to an accountant at ways to reduce the amount of tax you pay.

If the problem is those legal means shouldn't exist (and there are decent arguments to be made that they shouldn't) then petition your local MPs to get the Tax loopholes closed.

but complaining about someone doing something that is perfectly legal by simply saying 'well they shouldn't do it' is silly - as a suggestion - if enough people exploited the loopholes and the Government was really hurting for cash - then maybe there would be more of an incentive to do something about them.

Or let's go and just deposit our revenues into a bank in Ireland.... :facepalm:
...and pay .001% tax.....

[nodrog]

Or let's go and just deposit our revenues into a bank in Ireland.... :facepalm:
...and pay .001% tax.....

I put all mine under the mattress.

[gjm]

Shkreli is a grabbing bastard. Lowest form of exploitationist arse going. take something people need and will really struggle without, and increase the price by that much? What other reason is there?

He claims investigation into new and replacement therapies. This is probably something he has decided is necessary as the medical and pharmaceutical industries aren't aware of any demand for a replacement. Of course, that assumes he is telling the truth...


Back on the TPPA - it seems we have gone from a position where Glorious leader told us this was the best thing since sliced bread, and a must have for NZ's future. That has gradually degraded past "we'll get the best deal for NZ" (not the same thing at all) to the point where NZ will now be in the best possible position post-agreement. One more step - the "this might be good for us eventually" statement - is all that's left.

It increasingly seems a very short shitty stick with two shitty ends.

[TheDemonLord]

Or let's go and just deposit our revenues into a bank in Ireland.... :facepalm:
...and pay .001% tax.....

Again - if there is a way to do it that is legal - then its all okay. If you have a problem with people using the laws to benefit themselves, then change the law.

[oldrider]

Again - if there is a way to do it that is legal - then its all okay. If you have a problem with people using the laws to benefit themselves, then change the law.

Hey - I think I just saw that self righteous guy slip by mumbling to himself again! :devil2: - :D

[scrivy]

It increasingly seems a very short shitty stick with two shitty ends.

You mean like......
316218

[scrivy]

I put all mine under the mattress.

Bullshit!

I've seen your deposits on top of the mattress......
My spare beds never been the same.........

[Brian d marge]

Failing to pay tax is Illegal, Using Legal means to pay less tax is Legal.

The same legal means that are open to you and I - if you are really upset about it, by all means talk to an accountant at ways to reduce the amount of tax you pay.

If the problem is those legal means shouldn't exist (and there are decent arguments to be made that they shouldn't) then petition your local MPs to get the Tax loopholes closed.

but complaining about someone doing something that is perfectly legal by simply saying 'well they shouldn't do it' is silly - as a suggestion - if enough people exploited the loopholes and the Government was really hurting for cash - then maybe there would be more of an incentive to do something about them.

yes your are completely right

but I when I read this , I cant decide which of the 2 words I am thinking of I should use .


but pictures may work .......

[Brian d marge]

The futures looking bright ....

White Van Man is toast ,.....as are;

Those silly fkers who think they run the show.. their power debased ..( insert big lol )

https://www.torproject.org/

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/pzN4WGPC4kc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[mashman]

Like I said last time you rooted that out: What's its cost to market?

Until you can show that you've got no idea what the price should be.

Affordable healthcare for all = lives. Just like I said last time. You're not very good at this game are you. Whatever happened to that bright eyed lad, rough around the edges but with stars in his eyes. Pristine edges and $ in your eyes eh :killingme

I've shown you, I merely summarised the article and the logical and obvious outcome to the tack being chosen on our (society) behalf. Carry on buffoon.

[Ocean1]

Not quite, it is safe to assume the drug is hugely overpriced. That drug has been around sixty odd years, it's not new. The papers mention that is used in AIDS cases but that's just the press doing their sensationalist thing. It has been used for other people with reduced immunity such as infants and people on chemotherapy for a long time.

Just a few years ago the drug cost US$1.00 per pill but the price has risen as the company that produces it has been bought and sold several times. The only explanation I've seen for the increases was that each successive new owner has upped the price. The latest effort by far the largest at $5000%.

Shkreli is a greedy little prick, this is not the first time he has done something similar. He is reportedly involved in a criminal investigation as well as multiple civil actions.

The cost to market the pills is almost irrelevant in the overall scheme of things. If you want to know more just Google "5000%"

Oh I'm under no illusion that the industry is free of arseholes, why would anyone expect them to be?

But here's the thing: they own that product. Without the original R&D + associated massive compliance and legal fees it simply wouldn't exist. Which, like it or not means that they get to charge what they want for it, same as you get to decide the price you want for your bike, should you sell it.

Should they charge whatever they want? Well, they can only do so because most of the world agrees that they own the product by way of patent agreements. So personally I see the protection afforded them by such agreements is a service to producers, one which should be revocable under certain conditions. Like if some arsewipe is taking undue advantage of that service and the monopoly it entails to outrageously overcharge for his product.

Which is where the "cost to market" comes in. In the absence of otherwise natural competition there's nothin against which to compare prices, and no pressure on the sole supplier not to simply cost-plus the whole operation. So you have to guess, "what's the real cost-to-market for that particular product?", (which involves forensic accountancy, and the sort of arithmetic not taught to simple engineers). That, plus a reasonable return on investment is what it should be selling for.

Given me druthers I'd quite like the CC to spend a fair bit more time investigating monopolies, including those protected by patents, on the simple basis that ALL monopolies are counterproductive in the long run.

Trouble is, like most political feetballs the details surrounding the costing and pricing is a deal more complex than most can follow, as evidence the Herceptin debacle. Hence all the noise from the special interest groups, informed via carefully cobbled press releases and demanding someone does sommat about teh carnage. :cry: Like the Herceptin debacle.

Also, (to put a slightly practical take on it), if criminal activities are seen to be involved, then why wouldn't you consider any associated patents forfeit as proceeds of crime and kick it into the public domain. Disincentivise the arsewipes enough to keep 'em honest?

[Ocean1]

Affordable healthcare for all = lives. Just like I said last time. You're not very good at this game are you. Whatever happened to that bright eyed lad, rough around the edges but with stars in his eyes. Pristine edges and $ in your eyes eh :killingme

I've shown you, I merely summarised the article and the logical and obvious outcome to the tack being chosen on our (society) behalf. Carry on buffoon.

Oh fuck off you silly little twerp.

[mashman]

Oh fuck off you silly little twerp.

I will most certainly not you blind old scared white muthafucka. Ignoring the reality of others is all fine and well... until they can't afford to be herd immunized that is :shifty:

[Akzle]

Again - if there is a way to do it that is legal - then its all okay. If you have a problem with people using the laws to benefit themselves, then change the law.

ahyes. That minor and easily achievable little thing.... Unless you're not some rich white jew fuck....

[Brian d marge]

ahyes. That minor and easily achievable little thing.... Unless you're not some rich white jew fuck....
If you add " er" I qualify for two of those criterion

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[Akzle]

Failing to pay tax is Illegal, Using Legal means to pay less tax is Legal.

The same legal means that are open to you and I - if you are really upset about it, by all means talk to an accountant at ways to reduce the amount of tax you pay.

If the problem is those legal means shouldn't exist (and there are decent arguments to be made that they shouldn't) then petition your local MPs to get the Tax loopholes closed.

but complaining about someone doing something that is perfectly legal by simply saying 'well they shouldn't do it' is silly - as a suggestion - if enough people exploited the loopholes and the Government was really hurting for cash - then maybe there would be more of an incentive to do something about them.

hahahahahahaha. Naiive little demmon.


Can =/= should.


(will replace with symbols when at a fucken pc, unless some kindly mod cares to.)

[Voltaire]

ahyes. That minor and easily achievable little thing.... Unless you're not some rich white jew fuck....


I sense that you feel Jews and Whites have deprived you of greatness?:laugh:

[Katman]

I sense that you feel Jews and Whites have deprived you of greatness?:laugh:

Not greatness - just money.

[Brian d marge]

Not greatness - just money.
Damn i i thought it was just my wife who deprived me of money



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[Akzle]

I sense that you feel Jews and Whites have deprived you of greatness?:laugh:

no. I'm great.

[Akzle]

Not greatness - just money.

got enough of that and all.

Doesn't make me resent the cunts any less.

[TheDemonLord]

yes your are completely right

but I when I read this , I cant decide which of the 2 words I am thinking of I should use .


but pictures may work .......

And was the solution to complain about when people did something that was legal?

Or was the solution to change the Law?

(as a side note - at least 2 of those were Illegal under international Law/were human rights violations)

[TheDemonLord]

hahahahahahaha. Naiive little demmon.


Can =/= should.


(will replace with symbols when at a fucken pc, unless some kindly mod cares to.)

Too true - you CAN post on this forum - but whether you SHOULD remains a subject of debate.

[Brian d marge]

And was the solution to complain about when people did something that was legal?

Or was the solution to change the Law?

(as a side note - at least 2 of those were Illegal under international Law/were human rights violations)

both , and as a side note, due the the first 2 solutions..... the 2 that once were legal , became illegal

though I would maintain that they ( all four , ( I include tax) ) have been unethical right throughout

Stephen

[TheDemonLord]

both , and as a side note, due the the first 2 solutions..... the 2 that once were legal , became illegal

though I would maintain that they ( all four , ( I include tax) ) have been unethical right throughout

Stephen

The difference is (between the scenario presented and the one you pose) is that when people protested in those situations - they were protesting to get the law changed. They weren't stigmatizing those who were acting legally (at the time).

And that's even if I ignore the violation of Godwins law.

[Brian d marge]

The difference is (between the scenario presented and the one you pose) is that when people protested in those situations - they were protesting to get the law changed. They weren't stigmatizing those who were acting legally (at the time).

And that's even if I ignore the violation of Godwins law.

If you complain/protest you by default stigmatise those who are acting legally ( at that time , and the ones you are trying to change )

Would you like to borrow my drawing board?

Stephen

[Voltaire]

The tax system is great, the harder you work the more the Government penalises you.

Giving the Government any more than you have to is waste of money, look at what the useless feckers spend it on, flag changes we don't need, trips to China to look at Pandas, Nick Smith and other useless tossers.

The Council has dug up the perfectly good footpaths in my road and is replacing them....Fulton Hogan must do good overseas trips.

[TheDemonLord]

If you complain/protest you by default stigmatise those who are acting legally ( at that time , and the ones you are trying to change )

Would you like to borrow my drawing board?

Stephen

Not necessarily.

It is perfectly possible to make your arguments and protest solely on the merits of the idea - without stigmatisation.

Case in point: You say that people who do legal Tax avoidance are wrong to do what they are doing - You are stigmatising them
Suppose I agree with you about Tax loopholes - I say that the Tax loophole needs to be closed, as it is causing lost tax revenue to the Government.

You will note that the argument I make has no judgement or condemnation levelled against those who are currently acting legally - simply stating that such a loophole exists and is resulting in lost revenue.

I would borrow your drawing board - but I grew out of finger painting and crayons over 2 decades ago.

[puddytat]

And its things like this that make me think that somethings up...http://www.ibtimes.com/spain-gag-law-protesters-rally-against-new-public-demonstration-laws-1991816
http://www.theguardian.com/law/2015/aug/26/ngos-face-restrictions-laws-human-rights-generation
http://www.ipsnews.net/2015/06/opinion-why-are-threats-to-civil-society-growing-around-the-world/

& of course...the Zionists
http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/mk-proposes-israeli-foreign-agents-registration-act-for-ngos/2015/06/23/

[Katman]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/qGaoXAwl9kw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Get some.

[oneofsix]

And its things like this that make me think that somethings up...http://www.ibtimes.com/spain-gag-law-protesters-rally-against-new-public-demonstration-laws-1991816
http://www.theguardian.com/law/2015/aug/26/ngos-face-restrictions-laws-human-rights-generation
http://www.ipsnews.net/2015/06/opinion-why-are-threats-to-civil-society-growing-around-the-world/

& of course...the Zionists
http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/mk-proposes-israeli-foreign-agents-registration-act-for-ngos/2015/06/23/

Just be glad NZ doesn't have any anti-protest laws designed to protect foreign commercial interests;

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9771417/Law-will-hit-deep-sea-drilling-protesters

[oldrider]

The tax system is great, the harder you work the more the Government penalises you.

Giving the Government any more than you have to is waste of money, look at what the useless feckers spend it on, flag changes we don't need, trips to China to look at Pandas, Nick Smith and other useless tossers.

The Council has dug up the perfectly good footpaths in my road and is replacing them....Fulton Hogan must do good overseas trips.

NZ "privatisation" means that private companies carry out the duties in a "worse" manner than the government departments that they replace!

And the CEO's etc get their bonuses "regardless" of performance!

The scarce factor of production in NZ appears to be quality leadership and management! :doh:

[Brian d marge]

Not necessarily.

It is perfectly possible to make your arguments and protest solely on the merits of the idea - without stigmatisation.

Case in point: You say that people who do legal Tax avoidance are wrong to do what they are doing - You are stigmatising them
Suppose I agree with you about Tax loopholes - I say that the Tax loophole needs to be closed, as it is causing lost tax revenue to the Government.

You will note that the argument I make has no judgement or condemnation levelled against those who are currently acting legally - simply stating that such a loophole exists and is resulting in lost revenue.

I would borrow your drawing board - but I grew out of finger painting and crayons over 2 decades ago.

So your argument is

Its legal so is ok and creates lost revenue

I will leave the readers of this post to draw their own conclusions

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[Oakie]

So I saw Helen Clark supporting the National government pursuing TPPA. Said we're much better off in it than not. Discuss.

[Katman]

And I'm sure that once the deal is done, large corporations will move heaven and earth to force particpating governments to stiffen their anti-protest laws.

Big corporations won't take kindly to New Zealanders protesting against their unscrupulous dealings.

[Brian d marge]

So I saw Helen Clark supporting the National government pursuing TPPA. Said we're much better off in it than not. Discuss.
when you realize they are all the same
Tarred with the same American brush
Jail- or Shooting may be a better option than 1st past the post
or M M M pp whatever

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[Ocean1]

So I saw Helen Clark supporting the National government pursuing TPPA. Said we're much better off in it than not. Discuss.

History demonstrates that any country with significant trade barriers, (self imposed or otherwise) rapidly deteriorates.

If the choice is a trade agreement involving NZ or a trade agreement not including NZ, (and that's exactly what the choice is) then it's a no-brainer: Get the best deal you can, but do the deal.

Although... maybe not. Iron curtains produce deep and prolonged depressions, Bamboo curtains cause immense hardship and retrenchment to near feudal conditions, but who knows, maybe a Ponga curtain would work to maintain NZ's status as one of the worlds top performing economies.












:laugh:

[Brian d marge]

History demonstrates that any country with significant trade barriers, (self imposed or otherwise) rapidly deteriorates.

If the choice is a trade agreement involving NZ or a trade agreement not including NZ, (and that's exactly what the choice is) then it's a no-brainer: Get the best deal you can, but do the deal.

Although... maybe not. Iron curtains produce deep and prolonged depressions, Bamboo curtains cause immense hardship and retrenchment to near feudal conditions, but who knows, maybe a Ponga curtain would work to maintain NZ's status as one of the worlds top performing economies.












[emoji23]
What kind of kurtains did cuba have

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[Scuba_Steve]

So I saw Helen Clark supporting the National government pursuing TPPA. Said we're much better off in it than not. Discuss.

Nothing to discuss, she did her job, she brought the US into the TPPA & she's got her comfortable high paying UN job to show for it.

[Swoop]

So I saw Helen Clark supporting the National government pursuing TPPA. Said we're much better off in it than not. Discuss.

She had to say that, as she initiated it (as a much smaller version of what we are being offered now, when it involved New Zealand, Chile, Singapore and Brunei.).

[Ocean1]

What kind of kurtains did cuba have

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Made out of Russia's second world rusty old nuke silo shells.

But there's the thing: nobody really gives a shit what politics causes a nation to go sulk in their bedroom, it's enough to note that their standard of living plummeted as a direct result.

Now, do yo want to play with the grownups? Or is the bogeymans too scary?

[oldrider]

There's the thing: nobody really gives a shit what politics causes a nation to go sulk in their bedroom, it's enough to note that their standard of living plummeted as a direct result.

Are we to assume that their standard of living will now rise or will that only be for the usual small percentage? - It will be interesting to watch! :corn:

We have a ring side seat - if we should live long enough! :rolleyes:

[Ocean1]

She had to say that, as she initiated it (as a much smaller version of what we are being offered now, when it involved New Zealand, Chile, Singapore and Brunei.).

And China. Don't forget China.

What year did she do that deal again?

316238316239316240

Maybe we should just buy Pfizer outright.

[Brian d marge]

Made out of Russia's second world rusty old nuke silo shells.

But there's the thing: nobody really gives a shit what politics causes a nation to go sulk in their bedroom, it's enough to note that their standard of living plummeted as a direct result.

Now, do yo want to play with the grownups? Or is the bogeymans too scary?
On which side are you

Trade is fine

We need trade

Capatalism and all its flaws added to the gordon geckos

We . . ( may I include you ) dont need

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[Ocean1]

Are we to assume that their standard of living will now rise or will that only be for the usual small percentage? - It will be interesting to watch! :corn:

We have a ring side seat - if we should live long enough! :rolleyes:

Too early to tell. I don't expect much from what is still, after all a communist state.

Interesting comparing Cuba with what is supposedly a communist state with some of the worlds most open trading Policies...

316241

http://incentiveseverywhere.com/2014/12/16/evidence-that-larger-government-produces-a-lower-standard-of-living/

[Ocean1]

On which side are you

Trade is fine

We need trade

Capatalism and all its flaws added to the gordon geckos

We . . ( may I include you ) dont need

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The side responsible for the single most massive improvement in across-the-board living standards in the planet's history.

Where's that map of ancient socialist states with economies putting their citizens on top of the living standards leaderboard?

[Brian d marge]

The side responsible for the single most massive improvement in across-the-board living standards in the planet's history.

Where's that map of ancient socialist states with economies putting their citizens on top of the living standards leaderboard?
Imagine the living standards if we had socialism
[emoji8]

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[oldrider]

Imagine the living standards if we had socialism [emoji8]

Well we have but it's combined in multi-tier systems - them and us - we by the way are are really lucky to be us - however you look at it! :whistle:

[Ocean1]

Imagine the living standards if we had socialism
[emoji8]

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Don't have to, there's no shortage of failed socialist states to demonstrate that it's not a viable doctrine.

[Brian d marge]

Don't have to, there's no shortage of failed socialist states to demonstrate that it's not a viable doctrine.
Show me

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[Voltaire]

Imagine the living standards if we had socialism
[emoji8]

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We has Socialism, then Labour got into power in 1984.

[Voltaire]

Show me

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Pretty much the whole of Eastern Europe pre 1989, I went there in 1988 and it was like going back to the 1950's and 1960's....saying that I met a guy here a while back from

Czech Republic who said it was not that bad and who needs maccers and BK on every corner anyway.

oh and Greece and Ireland pre EU.....saying that...didn't really work out so well.

[Brian d marge]

Pretty much the whole of Eastern Europe pre 1989, I went there in 1988 and it was like going back to the 1950's and 1960's....saying that I met a guy here a while back from

Czech Republic who said it was not that bad and who needs maccers and BK on every corner anyway.

oh and Greece and Ireland pre EU.....saying that...didn't really work out so well.
I repeat my question

Show me a communist or socialist state

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[oldrider]

I repeat my question

Show me a communist or socialist state

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Have a good look at the USA!

[Voltaire]

I repeat my question

Show me a communist or socialist state

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Yes you are repetitive.

Define communist and socialist....a real one not one dreamed up by some German Librarian. Using the lala land model there has never been one.


So pre 1945 was Japan a Monarchy or a Democracy. Germany was a democracy as Hitler ( see if Captain Pedantic leaves that it) was voted in.

[Katman]

....and who needs maccers and BK on every corner anyway.

Afuckingmen.

[nodrog]

.......... and who needs maccers and BK on every corner anyway..

Fat lazy people.

[Scuba_Steve]

Don't have to, there's no shortage of failed socialist states to demonstrate that it's not a viable doctrine.

China's considered "socialist" & they effectively own America; the country you seem to base your "success stories" after.
Depending on what you call "socialist" there are plenty of socialist countries still ticking along quite decently with no problems other than some moronic imbecile wants to turn them into 'Merica clone. A system that is designed to fail

[gjm]

John Key "hopes the TPP Agreement will signed in Atlanta in the coming week." Signed in America because they have the biggest country? The most to lose? Or, maybe, the most to gain...?

Whether it should, or should not, be signed is irrelevant to the government. (Let's not forget this isn't going to be John Key's baby - it is a government decision that the Labour party has done little other than say "Oh, we're not sure it's a good idea." Lip service, just in case it goes wrong.)

The plan is to steamroller it through while ignoring any protests, and hope it all works so they can say "Told you so." If it doesn't, there's always Hawaii to retire to, and post-signing the protests will die down anyway.

[Brian d marge]

Yes you are repetitive.

Define communist and socialist....a real one not one dreamed up by some German Librarian. Using the lala land model there has never been one.


So pre 1945 was Japan a Monarchy or a Democracy. Germany was a democracy as Hitler ( see if Captain Pedantic leaves that it) was voted in.
Yes I can be

When answers are required

There have been some communist communites



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[Brian d marge]

John Key "hopes the TPP Agreement will signed in Atlanta in the coming week." Signed in America because they have the biggest country? The most to lose? Or, maybe, the most to gain...?

Whether it should, or should not, be signed is irrelevant to the government. (Let's not forget this isn't going to be John Key's baby - it is a government decision that the Labour party has done little other than say "Oh, we're not sure it's a good idea." Lip service, just in case it goes wrong.)

The plan is to steamroller it through while ignoring any protests, and hope it all works so they can say "Told you so." If it doesn't, there's always Hawaii to retire to, and post-signing the protests will die down anyway.
How far should we jump , .america sir

Yes sir jump sir

Does sir want to use lube this time

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[Swoop]

How far should jump america sir

For fuck's sake, speak English.

[Brian d marge]

For fuck's sake, speak English.

日本　わかる

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[sidecar bob]

There was a bunch of TPPA protestors down the road from work on my way home tonight.
Can anyone please explain why they all look like a bunch of unkempt simpletons?

[nodrog]

There was a bunch of TPPA protestors down the road from work on my way home tonight.
Can anyone please explain why they all look like a bunch of unkempt simpletons?

Because they were delivery drivers from the Tauranga Pizza Providers Association.

[Brian d marge]

There was a bunch of TPPA protestors down the road from work on my way home tonight.
Can anyone please explain why they all look like a bunch of unkempt simpletons?
Cause they cant afford the drugs

Now rhe price has gone up 5000%

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[sidecar bob]

Because they were delivery drivers from the Tauranga Pizza Providers Association.

To be frank, they looked like they were alll from Tauranga Pathetic People's Association.

[Madness]

Because they were delivery drivers from the Tauranga Pizza Providers Association.


To be frank, they looked like they were alll from Tauranga Pathetic People's Association.

Aren't you two late for your Tauranga Poo Pushers Anonymous weekly meeting?

[nodrog]

Aren't you two late for your Tauranga Poo Pushers Anonymous weekly meeting?

That was postponed until further notice due to union action. You will have to come down and contract yourself out.

[Madness]

That was postponed until further notice due to union action.

Solidarity.


You will have to come down and contract yourself out.

I only do Auckland jobs, sorry.

[gjm]

I only do Auckland jobs, sorry.

Auckland jobs. Poo. Fnarr, fnarr, hurr, hurr...

[Akzle]

I only do Auckland jobs, sorry.

are they like blow jobs?

Cos i like them.

(receiving. Before anyone thinks it's fucken hilarious to turn that one around. Pun intended.)

[nodrog]

are they like blow jobs?

Cos i like them.

(receiving. Before anyone thinks it's fucken hilarious to turn that one around. Pun intended.)

Where do you like receiving them?

Mouth?
Eye?
Tits?

[Brian d marge]

Auckland jobs. Poo. Fnarr, fnarr, hurr, hurr...
Big jobs

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[FJRider]

are they like blow jobs?

Cos i like them.

(receiving. Before anyone thinks it's fucken hilarious to turn that one around. Pun intended.)

Auckland "Jobs" require FULL personal protection. High vis' included.

Plus a full safety plan for ALL those involved.

[Voltaire]

Auckland "Jobs" require FULL personal protection. High vis' included.

Plus a full safety plan for ALL those involved.


Wot your pwoblem with us Awklanders
http://aphs.worldnomads.com/safetyhub/12392/chinese_crowds.jpg

[FJRider]

Wot your pwoblem with us Awklanders


Nothing in the safety plan requires English language competency ... <_<

[pete376403]

But its only about three times the cost of the flag so probably not worth getting worried about...

[Swoop]

日本　わかる

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ある日



10chars....

[gjm]

But its only about three times the cost of the flag so probably not worth getting worried about...

And could happen as a result of the mooted NZ 'smoke-free' policy. Cigarette companies will take any opportunity to sue anyone or anywhere that restricts their market.

[Brian d marge]

And could happen as a result of the mooted NZ 'smoke-free' policy. Cigarette companies will take any opportunity to sue anyone or anywhere that restricts their market.
They are already

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[oldrider]

Signed and sealed - with or without benefits for New Zealand - mission accomplished John Key! (American citizen?) :scratch:

Simple question to answer! https://aotearoaawiderperspective.wordpress.com/2014/10/16/is-john-key-an-american-will-you-help-us-find-out/ Why does he avoid it? :innocent: - Curiosity only - no connection whatsoever! :corn:

Edit: What is TPPA and why should you care? https://www.rt.com/usa/317706-what-is-tpp-trade/

[Shaun Harris]

GVT Subsidies are going to need to kick back in for the farmers here very very soon

[george formby]

TPPA and the interwebs.. From The Independent. Some nasty little nuggets in their.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/tpp-signed-the-biggest-global-threat-to-the-internet-agreed-as-campaigners-warn-that-secret-pact-a6680321.html

[Shaun Harris]

and the usa say

http://news.yahoo.com/united-states-11-pacific-rim-countries-reach-trade-133130029--finance.html#

[Brian d marge]

I see tim grocery fought hard for nz trade

Not

An agreement needs two parties . . This and orher govenments have not and do not represent the people . . So imho the contract is null and void

https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-releases/2015/october/trans-pacific-partnership-ministers

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[Oakie]

An agreement needs two parties . . This and orher govenments have not and do not represent the people . . So imho the contract is null and void

Ours does. More people voted for it than the other side so it has been asked to represent the people for three years ... for better or worse. But that is democracy.

[Brian d marge]

Ours does. More people voted for it than the other side so it has been asked to represent the people for three years ... for better or worse. But that is democracy.
Only if both sides understood the terms

I contend one side was hoodwinked



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[AllanB]

Labor Party shut up after Helen went pro last week.

Green Party wooers on TV tonight beetling about it putting up the price of roll your own tampons.

[Katman]

Green Party wooers on TV tonight beetling about it putting up the price of roll your own tampons.

On a slightly more serious note......

What if our government decides to ban the importation of a pesticide that is suspected of causing the death of bees by the millions?

Are you happy to have the manufacturer of that pesticide hold a gun to our heads (in the form of a law suit) in order to get their product on our shop shelves?

[carbonhed]

On a slightly more serious note......

What if our government decides to ban the importation of a pesticide that is suspected of causing the death of bees by the millions?

Are you happy to have the manufacturer of that pesticide hold a gun to our heads (in the form of a law suit) in order to get their product on our shop shelves?

The Government will just have to make sure their decisions are supported by the scientific evidence. Then they will likely win their court case.

If they let their decisions be dictated by the twatterati. Then they will deserve to lose their court case.

[Katman]

The Government will just have to make sure their decisions are supported by the scientific evidence. Then they will likely win their court case.

Dude, there are things that even scientists argue over.

You want a court to decide who has the loudest voice?

(Or more realistically, the largest wallet?)

[gjm]

What if our government decides to ban the importation of a pesticide that is suspected of causing the death of bees by the millions?

Are you happy to have the manufacturer of that pesticide hold a gun to our heads (in the form of a law suit) in order to get their product on our shop shelves?

Or a tobacco firm, should the government follow through with their plans for a 'smoke free' New Zealand? Most DHBs have a 'Smoke Free' team - could they also be sued by BAT or similar?

[Voltaire]

All sounded pretty good on the news er MSM...no taffifs on Beef and wine exports, the Japs, Yanks and whatever they call Canadians still doing a bit of protection of local farmers.

Doesn't Obama have to get it past Congress?

Tobacco companies can't sue Govts it said.....well that was my 2 minute attention span view.

[AllanB]

Dude, there are things that even scientists argue over.

You want a court to decide who has the loudest voice?

(Or more realistically, the largest wallet?)


I'm in and out of the High Court with work - best evidence wins. Your boffin against mine - loudest voice.

[Katman]

I'm in and out of the High Court with work - best evidence wins. Your boffin against mine - loudest voice.

With all due respect, I do hope you're just the photocopier guy.

Best evidence is all too often trumped by loudest voice/biggest wallet.

[carbonhed]

Best evidence is all too often trumped by loudest voice/biggest wallet.

So it's countries over companies every time then.

[Katman]

So it's countries over companies every time then.

Dude, some countries are easily bought.

[Akzle]

Ours does. More people voted for it than the other side so it has been asked to represent the people for three years ... for better or worse. But that is democracy.

no it isnt

[Akzle]

Dude, some countries are easily bought.

didnt johnkey just sell nz to america? (/jew cunts)

[Katman]

didnt johnkey just sell nz to america? (/jew cunts)

David Lange will be pissing himself.

[Voltaire]

David Lange will be pissing himself.

Can you smell it on their breath?

[Scuba_Steve]

I'm in and out of the High Court with work - best evidence wins. Your boffin against mine - loudest voice.

in the word's of Alan Shore when asked "On what grounds could you possibly prevail?" - ":laugh: grounds? Who cares about grounds? Cases always come down to who the jury likes better."

[Scuba_Steve]

So it's countries over companies every time then.

you do know how far in debt all the countries in the TPPA are don't you??? if it's about who has the more cash moneys, it ain't the countries winning

[yokel]

you do know how far in debt all the countries in the TPPA are don't you??? if it's about who has the more cash moneys, it ain't the countries winning

What's the US interest rate at mo? bout 0.25% since 2008.

I guess it's a case of share the wealth(debt).

[Oakie]

didnt johnkey just sell nz to america? (/jew cunts)

No. You're close but what he's actually done is to provide a facility for more NZers to sell more stuff to more Americans (and Canadians and Japanese and 8 other countries). Oh, and l;ets not forget that it was actually Helen Clark and Labour who started the whole process.

[Brian d marge]

No. You're close but what he's actually done is to provide a facility for more NZers to sell more stuff to more Americans (and Canadians and Japanese and 8 other countries). Oh, and l;ets not forget that it was actually Helen Clark and Labour who started the whole process.
Yes once we pay their import tarifs



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[Brian d marge]

So it's countries over companies every time then.
Hey cleatus

Check out walmarts budget

Bring the family as you will need all the hand and feet

As the numbers go way past 10

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[Oakie]

Yes once we pay their import tarifs

Which will be less, if not removed completely over what they are now. Now I know you are bright enough to know that's the whole point of a free trade agreement.

For example ... from what I heard tonight ... Japan currently whacks about 38% tariff on NZ beef. That will reduce to 9% over a few years.

[pete376403]

Which will be less, if not removed completely over what they are now. Now I know you are bright enough to know that's the whole point of a free trade agreement.

For example ... from what I heard tonight ... Japan currently whacks about 38% tariff on NZ beef. That will reduce to 9% over a few years.

A few years...More than just a few. This is what they will do for US beef. No way is NZ going to get better than that:


"International media reports in May last year and again earlier this year said Japan had agreed to reduce tariffs on US beef from 38.5% to 9% within 15 years of a deal being signed"
https://agrihq.co.nz/article/japan-to-reduce-beef-tariffs?p=7

[Brian d marge]

Which will be less, if not removed completely over what they are now. Now I know you are bright enough to know that's the whole point of a free trade agreement.

For example ... from what I heard tonight ... Japan currently whacks about 38% tariff on NZ beef. That will reduce to 9% over a few years.
A possibilty of 9 percent over 15 years
Nz is zero percent

As the australian market stands atm
Aussie beef is popular here more so than nz

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe and Premier Tony Abbott signed the accord in July, under which Japan agreed to gradually lower tariffs on Australian chilled beef to 23.5 percent over 15 years from 38.5 percent. They’re currently at 31.5 percent after two rounds of cuts. Duties on frozen beef will be halved to 19.5 percent over 18 years.



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[Oakie]

A possibilty of 9 percent over 15 years
Nz is zero percent

As the australian market stands atm
Aussie beef is popular here more so than nz

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe and Premier Tony Abbott signed the accord in July, under which Japan agreed to gradually lower tariffs on Australian chilled beef to 23.5 percent over 15 years from 38.5 percent. They’re currently at 31.5 percent after two rounds of cuts. Duties on frozen beef will be halved to 19.5 percent over 18 years.

Awesome! Good to know someone here has some facts.

[carbonhed]

Hey cleatus

Check out walmarts budget

Bring the family as you will need all the hand and feet

As the numbers go way past 10

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What's Walmart going to be suing us over fucktard?

[Brian d marge]

What's Walmart going to be suing us over fucktard?
I knew i would be pushing shit uphill

Lets try again

Instead of walmart . . .insert monsanto



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[Brian d marge]

Awesome! Good to know someone here has some facts.
Thats as it stands now im not in a position to find dairy tarrifs atm

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[carbonhed]

I knew i would be pushing shit uphill

Lets try again

Instead of walmart . . .insert monsanto



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So we're not going to be sued by Walmart anymore? Damn this is so confusing. Thank God we've got you to explain the intricacies of global trade treaties.

Why don't you insert Monsanto... deep up you're capacious asshole. It will assist if you try pushing it uphill.

[Laava]

Will be interesting to see how much better off I will be financially under this regime. Not going to have a pre-spend tho, in case it doesn't work out. Heard some very contrary opinions on how it will affect us on a personal level.
Just hope me old mate Theo Speiring doesn't miss out, poor cunt could do with a raise

[Shaun Harris]

So we're not going to be sued by Walmart anymore? Damn this is so confusing. Thank God we've got you to explain the intricacies of global trade treaties.

Why don't you insert Monsanto... deep up you're capacious asshole. It will assist if you try pushing it uphill.



fuk, take a chill pill dude

[buggerit]

So , can Monsanto now sue us if we continue banning G E plants etc?

[pete376403]

So , can Monsanto now sue us if we continue banning G E plants etc?
Quite possibly;


Investor–state arbitration (ISDS)[edit]

Commenting in the New Republic, the director of Public Citizen’s Global Trade Watch, Lori Wallach, in April 2015 said


“We consider it inappropriate to elevate an individual investor or company to equal status with a nation state to privately enforce a public treaty between two sovereign countries", ... “[ISDS] gives extraordinary new privileges and powers and rights to just one interest. Foreign investors are privileged vis-a-vis domestic companies, vis-a-vis the government of a country, [and] vis-a-vis other private sector interests",
"... the basic reality of ISDS: it provides foreign investors alone access to non-U.S. courts to pursue claims against the U.S. government on the basis of broader substantive rights than U.S. firms are afforded under U.S. law".[113]

According to The Nation's interpretation of leaked documents in 2012, countries would be obliged to conform all their domestic laws and regulations to the TPP's rules, even limiting how governments could spend their tax dollars.[114] As of 2012, US negotiators were pursuing an investor-state dispute settlement mechanism, also known as corporate tribunals, which according to The Nation can be used to "attack domestic public interest laws".[114] This mechanism, a common provision in international trade and investment agreements, grants an investor the right to initiate dispute settlement proceedings against a foreign government in their own right under international law. For example, if an investor invests in country "A", a member of a trade treaty, and country A breaches that treaty, then the investor may sue country A's government for the breach.[115] The Australian government's position against investor state dispute settlement has been argued to support the rule of law and national energy security.[116]

Philip Morris v. Uruguay is one current dispute. In 2010, the tobacco company Philip Morris International sued Uruguay for compensation of losses caused by Uruguay's anti-smoking health legislation, under an existing bilateral treaty between Switzerland and Uruguay. Similarly, in 2012, Philip Morris Asia sued Australia for compensation for Australia's plain tobacco packaging legislation, under a bilateral treaty between Hong Kong and Australia. Both cases are ongoing. These cases are atypical, but illustrate the degree to which ISDS may come to constrain national legislation.

On March 26, 2015 WikiLeaks released the TPP's Investment Chapter.[117] According to WikiLeaks, the accord would grant the power to global corporations to sue governments in tribunals organized by the World Bank or the United Nations to obtain taxpayer compensation for loss of expected future profits due to government actions.[118]

[Brian d marge]

So we're not going to be sued by Walmart anymore? Damn this is so confusing. Thank God we've got you to explain the intricacies of global trade treaties.

Why don't you insert Monsanto... deep up you're capacious asshole. It will assist if you try pushing it uphill.
My explaination is just fine the problem is between your ears

Must be so frustrating ,

I mean the sense of loss wouldn't be so bad if you heard multiple voices, but having to wait for an eternity for just one

and then only in monosyllabic

I cant imagine the frustration.....

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[AllanB]

Will be interesting to see how much better off I will be financially under this regime.

I'd wage the 'average' guy (apologizes if you are not average) does not notice anything.

[Brian d marge]

I'd wage the 'average' guy (apologizes if you are not average) does not notice anything.
I hope you are right


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[Ocean1]

just one

Oh, but I also think you're a whiney arsed know nothing blowhard with zero credibility.

[Brian d marge]

Who turns out to be right more often than not



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[Brian d marge]

Oh, but I also think you're a whiney arsed know nothing blowhard with zero credibility.
And avoidin answering a simple question just shows me how little you know

Carry on your doing an excellent job


Now lets try again communist and socialist what be the difference

Then we need a socialist country

Take your time

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[Shaun Harris]

And avoidin answering a simple question just shows me how little you know

Carry on your doing an excellent job


Now lets try again communist and socialist what be the difference

Then we need a socialist country

Take your time

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Ya getting a bit bored in the factory over there B

[Ocean1]

And avoidin answering a simple question just shows me how little you know

Carry on your doing an excellent job


Now lets try again communist and socialist what be the difference

Then we need a socialist country

Take your time

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That's not what you asked. Which sorta highlights the futility of attempting to answer your simpleton questions, like your simpleton facts they simply change to suit your simpleton preconceptions.

[Brian d marge]

Japans tariffs as they stand ATM

http://www.customs.go.jp/english/tariff/2015_115/data/e_02.htm

(http://www.customs.go.jp/english/tariff/2015_115/data/e_02.htm)
and according to " Stuff"

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/72731246/ministry-breaks-down-tppa-tariff-gains-dairy-meat-the-biggest-winners

remember this is a potential , projected gain ......

oh and while this blow hard with zero creditability is posting some more of your actual facts ...heres a wee doozie from that stuff article ....Snip:

The Overseas Investment Office will lose the power to block business investments valued at less than $200 million from foreigners from other TPPA countries. Currently, the threshold above which it can intervene is normally $100m. That change will also apply to Chinese, Taiwanese and South Korean investors – even though they are not party to the TPPA – because of "most favoured nation" clauses in their free trade agreements with New Zealand.

from the published agreement;

Page 6 of 16
financial system; and freedom to appoint senior management positions of any
nationality.
TPP Parties adopt a “negative-list” basis, meaning
that their markets are fully open to foreign investors, except where they have taken an
exception (non-conforming measure)
in one of two country-specific annexes: (1) current measures on which a Party accepts
an obligation not to make its measures more restrictive in the future and to bind any
future liberalization, and (2) measures and policies on which a Party retains full discretion
in the future.

But ... I wont be living in Auckland ....come to think of it neither will Aucklanders


but Im sure all of this is good for NZ


TUI

[Brian d marge]

That's not what you asked. Which sorta highlights the futility of attempting to answer your simpleton questions, like your simpleton facts they simply change to suit your simpleton preconceptions.

well it was the last question I asked , Im not sure how far behind the current topic you are

but http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/165722-Trans-Pacific-Partnership-Agreement?p=1130907873#post1130907873

this be the one ?

or should I search , this thread ,for terms , " just one " ?

As for simpleton facts , They are indeed Simpleton facts , As you will note One "simpleton fact came from the Japanese ministry , and yes they are simpletons.. The Other was from "stuff " which as you are well aware is read by simpletons. Hence to be used as a source for your benefit.

in turn " stuff " used used the press release" a summary of the agreement (http://www.tpp.mfat.govt.nz/) published by the Foreign Affairs and Trade Ministry"

which you will agree are very feeble minded

Now ....lets look at some fact you have provided ....
....


...


....


....

....

....

Nope, ya will have to help this simpleton , cant find much if any ......

[Voltaire]

Is this what happens when you live in a 50 metre apartment in a huge city? :rolleyes:

[gjm]

the TPPA has the potential to be good for everyone.

Sadly, the lobbyists will have inserted enough clauses, sidelines and such that the door will be cracked open for companies to come pouring through, seeking to fill their coffers at others expense. Those others will ultimately be us, the 'normal people.

Claims such as higher costs for medicine will be met by the government are ridiculous. How is the government funded, exactly?

The benefits should be realised in about 15 years. The downsides could become apparent very much sooner.

[Shaun Harris]

Imposible I know, but man it would be good to be able to follow a healthy thread, with out all slagging and bitch talk at each other on here, but guess that will never happen on here, shame really, as there are a lot of very healthy threads started, that just turn to shit with hero attacks, that just turn me of following them any further, to educate myself more about life etc. It is like being back in the primers at school again

[gjm]

Imposible I know, but man it would be good to be able to follow a healthy thread, with out all slagging and bitch talk at each other on here, but guess that will never happen on here, shame really, as there are a lot of very healthy threads started, that just turn to shit with hero attacks, that just turn me of following them any further, to educate myself more about life etc. It is like being back in the primers at school again

What's the rule in boxing? Duck a punch, block a swing? Something like that. Doesn't mention handbags, though. ;)

Back on topic.

International trade isn't about harmony. It's largely about rivalry and mercantilism is how the winners play to win. (The TPPA sets up a future agreement with China, the US's biggest mercantile competitor.) Instead of playing that game our government has put it's faith in "free" trade. They think not only that free-trade agreements will save us (we could too easily lose - everyone wants to win) but that we will benefit. Everyone will benefit.

Despite being nominally a "trade" agreement, the TPPA contains provisions which interfere with areas well beyond the bounds of trade. Based on what little we do actually know (and it's not much) the US will experience the following. Bear in mind, that the agreement goes both ways, so 12 member nations signing will all realise these consequences. (This is taken from an assessment made from the US perspective.)

The TPPA will:

• Limit how member nations and government officials can regulate foreign firms operating within domestic political and geographic boundaries, with requirements to provide foreign firms greater rights than domestic firms.

• Extend incentives for firms based in a member nation to offshore investment and jobs to lower-wage countries.

• Establish a two-track legal system that gives foreign firms new rights to skirt member nation courts and laws, directly sue a member nation government before foreign tribunals, and

• Demand compensation for financial, health, environmental, land use and other laws they claim undermine their TPP privileges.

• Allow foreign firms to demand compensation for the costs of complying with member nation financial or environmental regulations that apply equally to domestic and foreign firms.

Taken to one conclusion, this could amount to the idea that profitability of investments must be the supreme priority of state policy, overriding health, safety, human rights, labor law, fiscal policy, macroeconomic stability, industrial policy, national security, cultural autonomy, the environment, and everything else.

There is no justification for going to the opposite extreme and allowing governments to ride roughshod over legitimate property rights. Agreements such as the TPPA rigidly mandate market-based, property-first solutions to questions where societies must strike a reasonable balance between public and private interests.

So what's the alternative? What would a "reasonable" trade agreement, the kind we've been promised, look like? It could include the following principles:

1. Balanced Trade: Trade agreements must contribute to a national goal of achieving a manageable balance of trade over time; no more massive deficits

2. National Trade, Economic and Security Strategy: Trade agreements must strive to optimize value added supply chains within member nations - from raw material to finished product. This requires a national trade and economic strategy that creates jobs, wealth and sustained growth.

3. Reciprocity: Trade agreements must ensure that foreign country policies and practices as well as their tariff and non-tariff barriers provide fully reciprocal access for member nation goods and services. The agreements must provide that no new barriers or subsidies outside the scope of the agreement nullify or impair the concessions bargained

4. State Owned Commercial Enterprises: Trade agreements must encourage the transformation of state owned and state controlled commercial enterprises (SOEs) to private sector enterprises. In the interim, trade agreements must ensure that SOEs do not distort the free and fair flow of trade - throughout supply chains - and investment between the member nations.

5. Currency: Trade agreements must classify prolonged currency undervaluation (or devaluation) as a violation of the agreement.

6. Rules of origin: Trade agreements must include rules of origin to maximize benefits for member nation based supply chains and minimize free ridership by third parties. Further, all products must be labeled or marked as to country(s) of origin as a condition of entry. (The US is already in violation of this.)

7. Enforcement: Trade agreements must provide effective and timely enforcement mechanisms, including expedited adjudication and provisional remedies. Such provisional remedies must be permitted where a member nation deems a clear breach has occurred which causes or threatens injury, and should be subject to review under the agreements' established dispute settlement mechanisms.

8. Border Adjustable Taxes: Trade agreements must neutralize the subsidy and tariff impact of the border adjustment of foreign consumption taxes. This is set to happen under the TPPA. Eventually.

9. Perishable and Cyclical Products: Trade agreements must include special safeguard mechanisms to address import surges in perishable and seasonal agricultural product markets, including livestock markets.

10. Food and Product Safety and Quality: Trade agreements must ensure import compliance with existing member nation food and product safety and quality standards and must not inhibit changes to or improvements in member nation standards. The standards must be effectively enforced at member nation ports of entry.

11. Domestic Procurement: Trade agreements must preserve the ability of national and local governments to favor domestic producers in government, or government funded, procurement.

12. Temporary vs. Permanent Agreements: Trade agreements must be reviewed, and be subject to renegotiation and renewal. Renewal should not occur if the balance of benefits cannot be restored.

13. Labor: Trade agreements must include enforceable labor provisions to ensure that lax labor standards and enforcement by contracting countries do not result in hidden subsidies to the detriment of member nation-based workers and producers.


As said, we don't know the extent of the TPPA, and no-one is willing to allow the world's economists (or anyone else not intimately involved in the agreement process) access to it. One person I know who is peripherally involved told me that even most of those involved in the negotiation processes haven't seen much beyond the area of the agreement they have been involved in. Even in the so-called secret world of Trade Agreements, that's unusual.

On full inspection, the TPPA could be proven an unbridled success, or it could be revealed to be an unmitigated disaster in waiting. We don't know.

[Shaun Harris]

What's the rule in boxing? Duck a punch, block a swing? Something like that. Doesn't mention handbags, though. ;)

Back on topic.

Haha, cool reply. I say NZ should just jump in bed 100% with asia, china etc, and tell the rest of the world, ie the usa to go get F;d

[Brian d marge]

While the agreement really is about wealth transfer
There are some clauses which were unexpected

Marine reserves and shark protection
Memeber states are required to set up and maintain the above

Also climate management got a nod



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[Shaun Harris]

While the agreement really is about wealth transfer
There are some clauses which were unexpected

Marine reserves and shark protection
Memeber states are required to set up and maintain the above

Also climate management got a nod



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next we will be anti nuke again lol

[Brian d marge]

next we will be anti nuke again lol
Hey thats a point

Whats happening with that anti nuke

Spying ok

Copyright infringement protection ok

Troops to iraq ok

But no nuke powered ships in our waters

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[Jin]

NZ "privatisation" means that private companies carry out the duties in a "worse" manner than the government departments that they replace!
I guess you have never been inside a public hospital.

[Brian d marge]

I guess you have never been inside a public hospital.
I see serco are doing sterling work



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[ellipsis]

Imposible I know, but man it would be good to be able to follow a healthy thread, with out all slagging and bitch talk at each other on here, but guess that will never happen on here, shame really, as there are a lot of very healthy threads started, that just turn to shit with hero attacks, that just turn me of following them any further, to educate myself more about life etc. It is like being back in the primers at school again

...should we start an exclusive, 'Ginga' thread...no swearing or silly ideas would be tolerated and grammar would have to be spot on...('pon thinkin' on that, it just ain't gonna work)...

[gjm]

Europe has it's own Trade agreement negotiations under way, the TTIP - the Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership. Anyone spot who is sitting in the middle of all this? Yup, the US.

Any demonstrations against the TPPA we have had here pale into insignificance when compared to those in Europe. Nearly 4 million people have signed petitions, and there were 250000 people at a single anti-TTIP rally against in Berlin.

The worst bit? Summed up by EU Trade Commissioner, Cecilia Malmström, who is responsible for the TTIP in Europe: I do not take my mandate from the European people. (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/i-didn-t-think-ttip-could-get-any-scarier-but-then-i-spoke-to-the-eu-official-in-charge-of-it-a6690591.html)

So, regardless of protest, demonstration or even overwhelming evidence to suggest the TTIP is not viable, or just generally A Very Bad Idea, Malmström will continue to work for it because she does not have accountability to the public who will be affected.

It is very likely the same is true with the TPPA. Has anyone asked Groser who he gets his mandate from? I don't doubt doublespeak and evasion would follow, but I also doubt he'll say "I'm working in the best interests of the NZ public."

[Brian d marge]

Europe has it's own Trade agreement negotiations under way, the TTIP - the Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership. Anyone spot who is sitting in the middle of all this? Yup, the US.

Any demonstrations against the TPPA we have had here pale into insignificance when compared to those in Europe. Nearly 4 million people have signed petitions, and there were 250000 people at a single anti-TTIP rally against in Berlin.

The worst bit? Summed up by EU Trade Commissioner, Cecilia Malmström, who is responsible for the TTIP in Europe: I do not take my mandate from the European people. (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/i-didn-t-think-ttip-could-get-any-scarier-but-then-i-spoke-to-the-eu-official-in-charge-of-it-a6690591.html)

So, regardless of protest, demonstration or even overwhelming evidence to suggest the TTIP is not viable, or just generally A Very Bad Idea, Malmström will continue to work for it because she does not have accountability to the public who will be affected.

It is very likely the same is true with the TPPA. Has anyone asked Groser who he gets his mandate from? I don't doubt doublespeak and evasion would follow, but I also doubt he'll say "I'm working in the best interests of the NZ public."
As i mentioned a few months back

There is a worse agreement lurking

Of which little is known . But the little that is . . People have said . Is worse that the tppa

Its called Tisa . .trade in services agreement

I was reading an in depth analysis about it on stuff.co.baa




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[Brian d marge]

Europe has it's own Trade agreement negotiations under way, the TTIP - the Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership. Anyone spot who is sitting in the middle of all this? Yup, the US.

Any demonstrations against the TPPA we have had here pale into insignificance when compared to those in Europe. Nearly 4 million people have signed petitions, and there were 250000 people at a single anti-TTIP rally against in Berlin.

The worst bit? Summed up by EU Trade Commissioner, Cecilia Malmström, who is responsible for the TTIP in Europe: I do not take my mandate from the European people. (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/i-didn-t-think-ttip-could-get-any-scarier-but-then-i-spoke-to-the-eu-official-in-charge-of-it-a6690591.html)

So, regardless of protest, demonstration or even overwhelming evidence to suggest the TTIP is not viable, or just generally A Very Bad Idea, Malmström will continue to work for it because she does not have accountability to the public who will be affected.

It is very likely the same is true with the TPPA. Has anyone asked Groser who he gets his mandate from? I don't doubt doublespeak and evasion would follow, but I also doubt he'll say "I'm working in the best interests of the NZ public."
The french do wonderful haircuts

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[gjm]

"The role of the Government under a representative democracy is to represent the will of the people, not to negotiate a trade [TPP] deal in strict secrecy, sign on, and then tell the people they are supposed to represent to accept it. That form of governing has a name and it's certainly not called democracy..."

- Senator Ricky Muir, Victoria, Australia.

[Brian d marge]

"The role of the Government under a representative democracy is to represent the will of the people, not to negotiate a trade [TPP] deal in strict secrecy, sign on, and then tell the people they are supposed to represent to accept it. That form of governing has a name and it's certainly not called democracy..."

- Senator Ricky Muir, Victoria, Australia.
See my signature




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[Brian d marge]

The high court has found the goverment failed in that the requests for tppa documents where denied ...this means (imho) that because due process wasnt followed then the agreement is null and void , ...lets hope so

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[gjm]

The high court has found the goverment failed in that the requests for tppa documents where denied ...this means (imho) that because due process wasnt followed then the agreement is null and void , ...lets hope so

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Aye. Fingers crossed.

[oldrider]

The high court has found the goverment failed in that the requests for tppa documents where denied ...this means (imho) that because due process wasnt followed then the agreement is null and void , ...lets hope so

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Aye. Fingers crossed.

Interesting!

They should revisit the core values of government - they are not a law unto themselves - unfortunately, none of those on offer would be any different! :oi-grr:

[Winston001]

Feet on the ground guys. The facts are boring but that is how conspiracies are unwound.

Every country trades with others. For various reasons, many countries have created barriers to free trade in order to protect their own industries. Using import tarrifs.

However there is a substantial cost for each country and that is problematic. Should your community pay $100 for shoes when they could buy them for $20? All in order to protect maybe 1000 local people? It is a warm comforting idea but the 4 million non-shoe workers disagree. Etc...

[Winston001]

Thus free trade agreements against barriers have arisen over the last 50 years and that is also why there are international negotiations to remove barriers. The biggest change was the European Economic Community under the Treaty of Rome 1957 which lead to today's EU. Open trading, no barriers.

The North American Free Trade Agreement 1994 between Canada, Mexico, and the USA was a significant step towards world open trading.

[Winston001]

The essence of the TransPacific Partnership Agreement is that the partner nations agree to treat each other as similar countries.

That means we in NZ treat a Japanese or Malaysian business the same as a New Zealand business. No prejudice.

And if we want to set up a factory in Japan or Malaysia, no problem.

[Brian d marge]

The essence of the TransPacific Partnership Agreement is that the partner nations agree to treat each other as similar countries.

That means we in NZ treat a Japanese or Malaysian business the same as a New Zealand business. No preijudice.

And if we want to set up a factory in Japan or Malaysia, no prpblem.

In all due respect I think you had better read the thing ..as much as is available , then wonder why some people a lot smarterer than you and i are against it

imho it wealth transfer by big money

farms, land and houses I think will be the first things to go

[Shaun Harris]

The essence of the TransPacific Partnership Agreement is that the partner nations agree to treat each other as similar countries.

That means we in NZ treat a Japanese or Malaysian business the same as a New Zealand business. No preijudice.

And if we want to set up a factory in Japan or Malaysia, no prpblem.



That is just the base info that the GVT have led the media to dictate to us, why has it all been so quite and hush hush if it really was as you have described. Our little pond of a country cannot compete with any other, maybe samoa tonga etc, but that is where it end's. It brings me to the flag, if we are going to spend that amount of money for perty piece of cloth, why do we not also say NO to the TPP also, and stand on our own, which we can do. It all just comes down too, people with money and power, basically playing games, with the only potentuall loss to them being, pride only. We the voters/workers, are just the pawns in there game.

[Shaun Harris]

The high court has found the goverment failed in that the requests for tppa documents where denied ...this means (imho) that because due process wasnt followed then the agreement is null and void , ...lets hope so

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That was the first thing I thought when I saw it on the news, and look on the guys face being interviewed, he knew 100% he had screwed up

[Oakie]

"The role of the Government under a representative democracy is to represent the will of the people, not to negotiate a trade [TPP] deal in strict secrecy, sign on, and then tell the people they are supposed to represent to accept it. That form of governing has a name and it's certainly not called democracy..."

- Senator Ricky Muir, Victoria, Australia.

Not exactly a man with a lot of political credibility: (From Wiki):

Muir said that as a young man, he was interested in customising cars, but as he gained a family, he moved on to four-wheel drives as a way to explore the countryside. He wanted to keep the country open for four-wheel drives to explore. About four months before the election, he discovered the AMEP on social networking sites. He was preselected for the election without having met the party leaders. He had no political experience. He calls himself an "average Australian" and wanted to make "balanced decision which reflects on hopefully the everyday Australian".

Muir represented AMEP in Victoria at the 2013 federal election and won on a record-low primary vote of 0.51 percent or 17,122 first preferences (coming 13th out of 34 groups), getting to the 14.3 percent quota from 23 group voting ticket party preferences: Bank Reform Party, Australian Fishing and Lifestyle Party, HEMP Party, Shooters and Fishers, Australian Stable Population Party, Senator Online, Building Australia Party, Family First Party, Bullet Train For Australia, Rise Up Australia Party, No Carbon Tax Climate Sceptics, Citizens Electoral Council, Palmer United Party, Democratic Labour Party, Katter's Australian Party, Socialist Equality Party, Australian Sex Party, Australian Voice Party, Wikileaks Party, Drug Law Reform, Stop CSG, Animal Justice Party, and the Australian Independents Party. The previous record for the lowest successful primary Senate vote for a party's lead candidate was held by the Nuclear Disarmament Party's Robert Wood who polled 1.5 percent in New South Wales in 1987, a double dissolution election. Independent Senator Nick Xenophon and larger parties including the incoming government are looking at changes to the group voting ticket system.

In October 2013 it was reported that the AMEP's Victorian State Council had been banned by the party's executive from contacting Muir since the election, and that Muir supported the executive's decision to suspend the State Council.[10][11] The Victorian branch of the party voted to disband itself and expel Muir in July 2014. Both the expulsion and the existence of the Victorian branch after October 2013 were not recognised by the federal party.[12]

On 10 October 2013 Muir announced he would enter into an alliance with the Palmer United Party.[13]

[gjm]

Not exactly a man with a lot of political credibility...

I realise that, and deliberately didn't mention it. Does his credibility mean that what he said is incorrect? I find myself disagreeing with much of what most politicians say, but that's because I believe in transparency and not obfuscation. (Nice word that!) Even if that means saying "Sorry, I can't discuss that," rather than lying and misleading.

The agreement would be fine if it didn't extend beyond trade agreements. However, and is the way (especially in US politics) the TPPA has many clauses and riders attached to it, most of which are geared towards benefiting huge corporations (with turnover exceeding the GDP of NZ) and not trade.

[Oakie]

I realise that, and deliberately didn't mention it. Does his credibility mean that what he said is incorrect? I find myself disagreeing with much of what most politicians say, but that's because I believe in transparency and not obfuscation. (Nice word that!) Even if that means saying "Sorry, I can't discuss that," rather than lying and misleading.

The agreement would be fine if it didn't extend beyond trade agreements. However, and is the way (especially in US politics) the TPPA has many clauses and riders attached to it, most of which are geared towards benefiting huge corporations (with turnover exceeding the GDP of NZ) and not trade.

His opinion is just as valuable as yours or mine as they are all what each of us believes ... even though we probably disagree. It's that to ascribe the quote to 'a senator' gives it credence it possibly doesn't deserve without knowing a bit about the guy. Bit like quoting that German chap who said " Anyone who sees and paints a sky green and fields blue ought to be sterilized" without actually mentioning the guy's surname was Hitler. (not necesarily disagreeing with uncle Adolf on that particular thought though.)

[ellipsis]

.............


https://wikileaks.org/tpp-ip3/WikiLeaks-TPP-IP-Chapter/WikiLeaks-TPP-IP-Chapter-051015.pdf


..........

[flyingcrocodile46]

.............


https://wikileaks.org/tpp-ip3/WikiLeaks-TPP-IP-Chapter/WikiLeaks-TPP-IP-Chapter-051015.pdf


..........

Thanks. A bit of a head fuck but it appears that much criteria as to meaningful definitions are either undefined and/or cross referenced to other TPPA clauses and many of the several earlier referenced international protocols/agreements, all of which will come down to subjective legal interpretation. I can't help but wonder if our state was previously bound to any of these earlier agreements and if not, what the implications may be.

IMO analysis of these agreements in and of themselves has only limited value because at the end of the day the problem with all of the clauses of the TTPA is the underlying right of the participating corporations to bring marginal or frivolous damages claims against the state within their own newly created tribunals (mostly made up of corporate sock puppets).

When the state loses the claims the tax slaves will be the people who pay. In the unlikely event that a state makes a successful claim against a corporation for any significant damages (ranging through to unlawful deaths through product contamination etc) the corporation will protect its shareholders and go into bankruptcy. Once again, the tax slaves will be the people who pay.

Under current international and state laws the Govt (and its ever-paying tax slaves) are (by comparison) nearly impossible to successful sue.

[Brian d marge]

bye internet , you tube ..........porn

its been nice knowing you

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/oct/09/wikileaks-releases-tpp-intellectual-property-rights-chapter

if its claimed to be copyright then it can be ( must be?) taken down .... could only take one complaint on youtube to have that vid taken down

Stephen

[mashman]

The TPP. The closed loop for money printing. 1 secret court controlling the monetary fate of every country. What could possibly go wrong.

[Brian d marge]

The TPP. The closed loop for money printing. 1 secret court controlling the monetary fate of every country. What could possibly go wrong.
Run out of lapis lazuri for the blue

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[gsxr]

The TPP. The closed loop for money printing. 1 secret court controlling the monetary fate of every country. What could possibly go wrong.

Come 06/02/2016 we are all fucked so why discuss it It has already been decided.

Just saying .....

[Brian d marge]

Come 06/02/2016 we are all fucked so why discuss it It has already been decided.

Just saying .....
Has my credit card bill been sent to the wrong address again

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[mashman]

Run out of lapis lazuri for the blue

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Damned primary colours are so hard to replace. Mine'd you, we could always VR into a game to get that blue blue feeling.


Come 06/02/2016 we are all fucked so why discuss it It has already been decided.

Just saying .....

More than likely. Still though, it can be undone just as easily ;).

[Oakie]

Yawn. More worried about the black spots on my broad beans than the TPPA.

Oakie unwittingly opens the door for someone to blame the TPPA for the black spots on his broad beans

[Brian d marge]

Yawn. More worried about the black spots on my broad beans than the TPPA.

Oakie unwittingly opens the door for someone to blame the TPPA for the black spots on his broad beans
Thats ok
Strangely solving the black spots on the beans is a skill that will soon be in demand

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[Brian d marge]

He was found by the Bureau of Statistics to be One against whom there was no official complaint, And all the reports on his conduct agree That, in the modern sense of an old-fashioned word, he was a saint, For in everything he did he served the Greater Community. Except for the War till the day he retired He worked in a factory and never got fired, But satisfied his employers, Fudge Motors Inc. Yet he wasn't a scab or odd in his views, For his Union reports that he paid his dues, (Our report on his Union shows it was sound) And our Social Psychology workers found That he was popular with his mates and liked a drink. The Press are convinced that he bought a paper every day And that his reactions to advertisements were normal in every way. Policies taken out in his name prove that he was fully insured, And his Health-card shows he was once in hospital but left it cured. Both Producers Research and High-Grade Living declare He was fully sensible to the advantages of the Instalment Plan And had everything necessary to the Modern Man, A phonograph, a radio, a car and a frigidaire. Our researchers into Public Opinion are content That he held the proper opinions for the time of year; When there was peace, he was for peace: when there was war, he went. He was married and added five children to the population, Which our Eugenist says was the right number for a parent of his generation. And our teachers report that he never interfered with their education. Was he free? Was he happy? The question is absurd: Had anything been wrong, we should certainly have heard.


W H Auden


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[pete376403]

Coming soon, to a government near you - endless litigation, which will be paid for by the taxpayer.

TransCanada, the big Canadian energy giant, announced it was going to sue the U.S. government for $15 billion for not going forward with the Keystone XL pipeline. And that’s under NAFTA’s investment protection provisions. The TPP has very similar provisions.

[Katman]

Everyone of you who allows this agreement to be signed off without a murmur will be guilty of selling the country down the river.

Protest action is the only thing that can possibly make a difference now.

There is actually considerable unrest about the agreement within most of the other countries involved - we're just not hearing about it on the news.

If protest action is organised in an area near you, get involved - make some noise.

Protesting is something we've always been fairly adept at.

[Akzle]

fucken pussies. The day and age of protest is passed.

NOW we need revolution.
Everyone needs to come together,


and execute every politician* you see.




*banker, jew, lawyer, judge, suit, suv driver, old people, young niggers, immigrants who do more than run a dairy or kebab shop, car salesmen.

[mashman]

fucken pussies. The day and age of protest is passed.

Haymens....

[Katman]

Remember 1981?

[Clunge Bucket]

Remember 1981?

Sure do mate. THFC beat Man City 3-2 in the FA Cup Final (I was there, Rikki Villa's classic Goal)

1981 was also the year my beloved Yid army kicked the fcuk out of West Ham on their own doorstep. We also did those Cockney Reds at Euston Station before the 3rd round of the league cup and knocked seven bells out of Newcastle, 'Boro, Cardiff and Portsmouth.

Chelsea kicked fcuk out of us as usual and thankfully we didnt have to go near Millwall so that was alright.

So yeah I remember 1981, got the bruises to prove it but so have them other cnuts

[Katman]

Is that like.....soccer?

[mashman]

Remember 1981?

Not really as I was only 10 at the time. Times have changed and I'm not really into storming the castle given that the result is nought more than kicking the can down the road. Each to his own I guess, but all I am saying is give peace a chance ;).

[Katman]

Not really as I was only 10 at the time. Times have changed and I'm not really into storming the castle given that the result is nought more than kicking the can down the road. Each to his own I guess, but all I am saying is give peace a chance ;).

The protest action in 1981 played a significant part in ending Apartheid.

Was well worth the effort.

[mashman]

The protest action in 1981 played a significant part in ending Apartheid.

Was well worth the effort.

I've read what happened and as you say, a damned fine result... even if it did take 13 years to get the message across from that point in time. I'm not feeling overly patient at the moment, certainly not 13 years patient... but by all means petition or storm the castle and hope that you'll get a better result.

[Clunge Bucket]

Is that like.....soccer?

Dont be an insufferable spear chucker, its football and you damn well know it

[Clunge Bucket]

The protest action in 1981 played a significant part in ending Apartheid.

Was well worth the effort.

Which was a real shame

I used to love it when the big fat blond ya ya yaaaaapees got the Dunlop necklace out, fun times

[puddytat]

As usual, the Green Hippy Liberal Brigade were right.....

[Brian d marge]

Coming soon, to a government near you - endless litigation, which will be paid for by the taxpayer.

TransCanada, the big Canadian energy giant, announced it was going to sue the U.S. government for $15 billion for not going forward with the Keystone XL pipeline. And that’s under NAFTA’s investment protection provisions. The TPP has very similar provisions.
its worth a punt

the canadian dollar has dropped in value

raising food prices and as canada imports most if not all of its
Veges

I heard price of 20 for pepper

france is a mess as well

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[Brian d marge]

fucken pussies. The day and age of protest is passed.

NOW we need revolution.
Everyone needs to come together,


and execute every politician* you see.




*banker, jew, lawyer, judge, suit, suv driver, old people, young niggers, immigrants who do more than run a dairy or kebab shop, car salesmen.
ive already made a list do a kb search



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[Brian d marge]

Remember 1981?
i was there

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[Brian d marge]

Sure do mate. THFC beat Man City 3-2 in the FA Cup Final (I was there, Rikki Villa's classic Goal)

1981 was also the year my beloved Yid army kicked the fcuk out of West Ham on their own doorstep. We also did those Cockney Reds at Euston Station before the 3rd round of the league cup and knocked seven bells out of Newcastle, 'Boro, Cardiff and Portsmouth.

Chelsea kicked fcuk out of us as usual and thankfully we didnt have to go near Millwall so that was alright.

So yeah I remember 1981, got the bruises to prove it but so have them other cnuts

u never did . . . u lot spent half ya time hidin round the back of the old bill
we put ur arse on s plate sent it back to n17 with a note to ur mum

Is that like.....soccer?
no . . . life

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[J.A.W.]

Dont be an insufferable spear chucker, its football and you damn well know it

Soccer = wogball, played by such as & poofters, sheilas, & Poms..

See some old school Aussie footy here, sadly its been soccer-fied since..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxyiBOdy-6U

As the lyric goes.. "We wpuldn't play wogball, we wouldn't have any friends."

[willytheekid]

Everyone of you who allows this agreement to be signed off without a murmur will be guilty of selling the country down the river.

Protest action is the only thing that can possibly make a difference now.

There is actually considerable unrest about the agreement within most of the other countries involved - we're just not hearing about it on the news.

If protest action is organised in an area near you, get involved - make some noise.

Protesting is something we've always been fairly adept at.


fucken pussies. The day and age of protest is passed.

NOW we need revolution.
Everyone needs to come together,


and execute every politician* you see.




*banker, jew, lawyer, judge, suit, suv driver, old people, young niggers, immigrants who do more than run a dairy or kebab shop, car salesmen.

+1...wot they said :yes:
http://d3lgc28rsiigal.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/tppa.png?2919db

http://thedailyblog.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/NZ-CORPORATE-FLAG.jpg

...revolution's always start with peaceful protest...that just happen to turn into mass political bloodshed!:shifty:(And these pricks need there teeth kicked in before we throw them out of the country!)

[Akzle]

/NZ-CORPORATE-FLAG.jpg[/IMG]

uhhhh, scuze us a mo there willy, but we have the opportunity to choose which flag we'll be sold out under...

[Clunge Bucket]

u never did . . . u lot spent half ya time hidin round the back of the old bill
we put ur arse on s plate sent it back to n17 with a note to ur mum

no . . . life

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Oi oi,

Who are ya, who are ya, who are ya....!!!!