The cheater MX85 argument. I might be changing my mind.

[Drew]

Which raises a question - if an MX85 engine came as standard in a scooter. Would it then be allowed to be used in buckets?Yes. It would then come from a non competition bike.

Here's a good way around it that stirred some shit a while back.

http://raresportbikesforsale.com/tag/nsr80/

To my mind, this makes the CR80 legal.

[Henk]

Yes. It would then come from a non competition bike.

Here's a good way around it that stirred some shit a while back.

http://raresportbikesforsale.com/tag/nsr80/

To my mind, this makes the CR80 legal.

Drew

Steve Bennett has one of these, and the engine bears no resemblance to a CR engine.

I would like some clarification as to what is being proposed now as there seem to be two schools of thought.

Are we looking at stock MX85 engines so people who hate four strokes can bolt a readily available engine into a bike and go racing knowing that they will not be able to tune to the stage they would need to run at the sharp end, or

MX85 engines with the rest open slather to give us a new platform for two stroke development in the class.

There seem to be two trains of thought here and I'm losing track of what is being debated.

[kel]

As I have previously stated there is no point to letting in 85MX if they are going to be limited in any way other than capacity.
Buckets is about developing engines to race. A ported 85 2 stroke against a worked 150 4 stroke is a good match.
The other engine classes can remain unchanged. the best 100cc home built non comp 2 strokes will still produce 30hp, the best air cooled non comp 125 2 strokes will still come close (23hp isn't close) but blow up every second meeting, the best 4 strokes will still dominate the kart tracks with their superior torque curves. I'd like to see non comp 200cc single cylinder 2 valve air cooled 4 strokes added as well.
I will put this forward as a rule change next year. Support buckets or support your own agenda, I don't care.

[Rick 52]

125cc air cooled motors are dangerous ?? Rubbish! TF 125 with a kart carb makes reliable 23hp built and maintained as a race engine, not hard but if you know how, 85mx engine standard bolt in is a easy option, not hard if you know how, both engines are available and make good power .
TF engine needs more work on the bench before use and the MX motor would need a rebuild before use, both engines would cost the same to prep before using but more time on the TF with porting, Henk pointed out 85mx engines are not cheap to buy.
Horses for courses ! I would use a CR85 as a have one under the bench but I'm not sure how much of a advantage I would get,

1/ would this rule change get more bikes on track ? Not in my opinion .
2/ could the rule change open a can of worms ? Very probable
3/ would it be a cheaper option ? No

Haha I voted yes :crazy:

[husaberg]

I've already said earlier i have no stance on the question but....

Given the shitfight over 250 prod and several other class rule sets i could name, whatever you come up with HAS TO BE ENFORCEABLE !!

To this end, I'd recommend making any restrictions external to the motor. Look at the aircooled/24mm carb 125 rule. simple and enforceable. as soon as you go down the track of "standard barrels" or in one very bad case "engines must be as they came from the original bike" you are simply asking for trouble.

dave may be onto something with the pipe dia idea - it needs someone with engmod to run the figures. A list of ignition boxes approved for each motor, maybe would work too. Anyone still reprogramming them ? Std carb for that motor with untouched bore too...Airbox intake restrictor ?

I agree with Daves idea any restiction needs to be easily checked the ignition is iMO a no go, To easy to pop open and change a resistor to remap........

[Sketchy_Racer]

As I have previously stated there is no point to letting in 85MX if they are going to be limited in any way other than capacity.
Buckets is about developing engines to race. A ported 85 2 stroke against a worked 150 4 stroke is a good match.
The other engine classes can remain unchanged. the best 100cc home built non comp 2 strokes will still produce 30hp, the best air cooled non comp 125 2 strokes will still come close (23hp isn't close) but blow up every second meeting, the best 4 strokes will still dominate the kart tracks with their superior torque curves. I'd like to see non comp 200cc single cylinder 2 valve air cooled 4 strokes added as well.
I will put this forward as a rule change next year. Support buckets or support your own agenda I don't care

I agree 100 percent with this. Long term this is the logical route if people can get past the "competion" engine part.

And like I mentioned earlier, if there is a clear advantage from one type of motor then put in place some form of restriction.

[TZ350]

As I have previously stated there is no point to letting in 85MX if they are going to be limited in any way other than capacity. Buckets is about developing engines to race. A ported 85 2 stroke against a worked 150 4 stroke is a good match.
The other engine classes can remain unchanged. the best 100cc home built non comp 2 strokes will still produce 30hp, the best air cooled non comp 125 2 strokes will still come close (23hp isn't close) but blow up every second meeting, the best 4 strokes will still dominate the kart tracks with their superior torque curves. I'd like to see non comp 200cc single cylinder 2 valve air cooled 4 strokes added as well.
I will put this forward as a rule change next year. Support buckets or support your own agenda, I don't care.


I agree 100 percent with this. Long term this is the logical route.

I voted No but there has been some good discussions and unrestricted (except for capacity) MX85's are starting to sound like a good idea to me too.

[husaberg]

I agree 100 percent with this. Long term this is the logical route if people can get past the "competion" engine part.

And like I mentioned earlier, if there is a clear advantage from one type of motor then put in place some form of restriction.


I voted No but there has been some good discussions and unrestricted (except for capacity) MX85's are starting to sound like a good idea to me too.

Right even if we set aside the the gearbox issues....................
We still have the position where ther MX85 would be able to use cheaper and superior more freely available bearings and rods than a Open F4 or F5 either 2 or 4 stroke can.....

Don't get me wrong Change is ok (and enevitable) but before sweeping changes are made ramifications have to be noted, considered and accomidated.

[Drew]

Right even if we set aside the the gearbox issues....................
We still have the position where ther MX85 would be able to use cheaper and superior more freely available bearings and rods than a Open F4 or F5 either 2 or 4 stroke can.....

Don't get me wrong Change is ok (and enevitable) but before sweeping changes are made ramifications have to be noted, considered and accomidated.

That's exactly why it's a good idea, one would have thought.

[husaberg]

That's exactly why it's a good idea, one would have thought.

Read it again Drew..................

[Drew]

Read it again Drew..................

I'm missing something here I think. I read what you have said, to be a negative aspect. You seem to refer to it as a ramification, after setting aside the gearbox...which you repeatedly say you are against.

I'd have thought readily available parts at much lower price to what is being paid now, is possibly the single greatest item in the 'for' column.

[husaberg]

I'm missing something here I think. I read what you have said, to be a negative aspect. You seem to refer to it as a ramification, after setting aside the gearbox...which you repeatedly say you are against.

I'd have thought readily available parts at much lower price to what is being paid now, is possibly the single greatest item in the 'for' column.

But only for the 85's Drew...... only for the 85's............
you like to think if it was a great thing, which it could be (the opening up of parts that are cheaper and better quality to boot ie competition conrods and bearings) it should be a great thing for all.............But no, the other F4 and F5's 2 and 4 strokes. For them (Competition conrods and bearings)they would be still be illegal......

[chrisc]

Just on the gearbox side of things:
I thought that having a reduced capacity (85 v 125) was a big enough penalty for having a better gearbox?
For the 100cc water cooled vs. 85cc watercooled (with MX box) argument, again there is a capacity disadvantage here for a better gearbox.

For FXRs, they only use 2 gears most of the time anyway and are fine how they are so that's kind of irrelevant (in the real world) in relation to 4 strokes.

[CM2005]

Just on the gearbox side of things:
I thought that having a reduced capacity (85 v 125) was a big enough penalty for having a better gearbox?
For the 100cc water cooled vs. 85cc watercooled (with MX box) argument, again there is a capacity disadvantage here for a better gearbox.

For FXRs, they only use 2 gears most of the time anyway and are fine how they are so that's kind of irrelevant (in the real world) in relation to 4 strokes.

AS has been repeated ad infinitum however some people are jammed in a gear themselves

[Drew]

But only for the 85's Drew...... only for the 85's............
you like to think if it was a great thing, which it could be (the opening up of parts that are cheaper and better quality to boot ie competition conrods and bearings) it should be a great thing for all.............But no, the other F4 and F5's 2 and 4 strokes. For them (Competition conrods and bearings)they would be still be illegal......

So? There are a lot of bikes out there that are getting impossible to source parts for. They sit in sheds and never come out anymore. CB125t is one that springs to mind.

What can be done to make it fairer for them? Allow them to go to 200cc to make up for them being unlucky in owning an outdated motor?

I do understand the argument for not letting these motors in to the sport, but the reasons seem to be easily manageable with the implementation of a few simple rules.

There will of course be cheaters who break those rules, but the sad fact is they're probably out there doing the same thing now anyway.

[husaberg]

Just on the gearbox side of things:
I thought that having a reduced capacity (85 v 125) was a big enough penalty for having a better gearbox?
For the 100cc water cooled vs. 85cc watercooled (with MX box) argument, again there is a capacity disadvantage here for a better gearbox.

For FXRs, they only use 2 gears most of the time anyway and are fine how they are so that's kind of irrelevant (in the real world) in relation to 4 strokes.

Yes of course you could say that, but you have to balance it in with the fact the MX bike was designed from a blank slate to be a competition bike and thus has many other advantages deigned into it, that nearly all the commuter bikes don't, Water cooling, case reed some even have valve power valves, nice clutches designed for their HP, race ignitions built in already. They contain far fewer composmises.
the reduced capacity is 85 vs 100 remember (water cooled.)

Makes a good point what if it was air cooled MX like an early cr or rm80 would them be allowed to go to say 100 or even 125 ????????????

[husaberg]

So? There are a lot of bikes out there that are getting impossible to source parts for. They sit in sheds and never come out anymore. CB125t is one that springs to mind.

What can be done to make it fairer for them? Allow them to go to 200cc to make up for them being unlucky in owning an outdated motor?

I do understand the argument for not letting these motors in to the sport, but the reasons seem to be easily manageable with the implementation of a few simple rules.

There will of course be cheaters who break those rules, but the sad fact is they're probably out there doing the same thing now anyway.

But the rules should to be sorted prior to entry, not after wouldn't ya think...........:2thumbsup

[Drew]

Makes a good point what if it was air cooled MX like an early cr or rm80 would them be allowed to go to say 100 or even 125 ????????????Consensus looks to be pretty firm on a capacity limit of 85cc for competition motors. Someone silly enough to buy a different type of old shitter that can't compete at all, deserves what they get.

[Drew]

But the rules should to be sorted prior to entry, not after wouldn't ya think...........:2thumbsupWithout doubt. I think Sketchy's one is completely stock, other than the pipe...which I bet the lazy bastard just used something that had been hanging in the shed already.

So for him to have taken it to the track, and be saying he'd like to persue the avenue now, makes sense.

It's been kinda tried, it could work, the fraternaty should now consider a set of rules and submit them to MNZ. Let the voting be official regarding a firm submission.

Meh, I only ever build a bike every two years and bring it to the track once anyway. Doesn't effect me either way.

[chrisc]

Someone please run the numbers on realistic potential for a 150cc 4 valve 4t engine vs a 85cc 2t mx engine.
I feel that they are a pretty damn good match, especially considering the apparent ease of racing a 150 4t (lots of area under the power curve) vs. the higher effort required in racing a 85cc 2t.

I would do it myself but I lack the experience required for such calcs

[F5 Dave]

He's even lazier than that. Std pipe fitted in RGV chassis.

[Drew]

He's even lazier than that. Std pipe fitted in RGV chassis.Lazier, but that is better for making my point.

The thing is peaky as all fuck, and quite a challenge to go fast on. So, some tuning is required to make it worth just the effort been put into this thread.

[F5 Dave]

That's positive. I have just caught up in it.....and I think its going no where at all.

The people whom have said no - have not entertained any suggestions that there are ways for it to work. As far as they are concerned - MX85's are race engines and the rules state "No race engines".
They don't want this rule to change - and can't see anyway where an MX85 is not a race engine.

I believe the term is Stalemate.

Which raises a question - if an MX85 engine came as standard in a scooter. Would it then be allowed to be used in buckets?

Lool I'm sorry I've been rude to you before.

But why the fuck do you come here? You have no place here and you're a complete dickhead. Fuck off.

[husaberg]

I voted no but maybe comming around a bit (even though i may have wasted $3000 on the wrong build thus far.)
But as i see it the parts have to be opened up esp bearings rods etc for all........

[CM2005]

I voted no but maybe comming around a bit (even though i may have wasted $3000 on the wrong build thus far.)
But as i see it the parts have to be opened up esp bearings rods etc for all........

Wow that's alot of money, i could buy this :http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=728992348#qna under the proposed format, fit some scooter tyres and do a piston for under 1500 dollars.

you know that just because its an MX engine it doesn't mean it has super special rods, bearings gaskets etc right? I'm sure the conrod is probably made to the same tolerance and metal type as an FXR rod. Bearing wise there's nothing to stop you going to your local engineering shop and buying the bearings you need, you don't have to buy OEM!
Don't confuse works AMA supercross bike with mass produced kids mx bikes

[husaberg]

Wow that's alot of money, i could buy this :http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=728992348#qna under the proposed format, fit some scooter tyres and do a piston for under 1500 dollars.

you know that just because its an MX engine it doesn't mean it has super special rods, bearings gaskets etc right? I'm sure the conrod is probably made to the same tolerance and metal type as an FXR rod. Bearing wise there's nothing to stop you going to your local engineering shop and buying the bearings you need, you don't have to buy OEM!
Don't confuse works AMA supercross bike with mass produced kids mx bikes

Cost is relative but if you attempt to build a legal hot water cooled two stroke with case reed and a PV and triple exhaust ports things can add up.
I am not moaning it could be done for far less with more compromises its just beer money for some, spread out.
It could also have been done far cheaper with currently illegal parts

MX is competition i would have had a far easier and cheaper job if i could have selected a competition rod and crank.
Dave and Mike would have saved a lot of money without having to destroke their cranks a few mm so they could legally use strike 52mm pistons.
They never complained why? cause that is the current rules.......Same for all.
Its the price of staying legal, when pursuing the best end results...........
Dave's motor would likely be far more reliable (if i may be so bold to suggest hope you don't mind Dave its not a jibe)if he had have been say able to use say a CR85 crankcase and water pump set up.

Oh bearings from the bearing shop wish i had thought of that:killingme.

[avgas]

Yes. It would then come from a non competition bike.

Here's a good way around it that stirred some shit a while back.

http://raresportbikesforsale.com/tag/nsr80/

To my mind, this makes the CR80 legal.
Hmmmm
So are homologation bikes allowed?

I mean if I buy a Derbi 80cc Road Race supersport (fake bike - don't look it up) which effectively a racebike, but attempted to sell to the commuter customer market.
Could that be raced?

What I think we have right now is a problem with definition. We are claiming engines are race engines according to the chassis they are bolted into. Where in buckets you ripping it out of that chassis and putting it in a race chassis anyway.........
I think if we had 85mx engines in commuters - we suddenly would not have this definition problem.

i.e. either you can't get a 2-stroke 85cc non-race motor? or we are looking at the irrelevant frame/chassis too much and saying its a racebike?

From recall the PW80 is no longer available which means in the Yamaha new MX bike engines you are looking at the TTR110 @ 7hp or yz85 @ 15hp.
In the commuter you have nothing except 125cc scooter.
So basically that is 1 manufacturer out. (in the US at least - mabey NZ has better farm selection?)

So perhaps someone could do the other manufacturers. Lets see what new engines are actually available to future bucket users. That should decide the rules.

Other you will end up in a shambles like all those pre-8X, post-8X races I see (that keep moving the cut-off year).

I would hate to see you all nursing old motors or riding briggs and stratton 10 years from now because we decided to stay high an mighty about what we are willing to accept as a challenge.

[Yow Ling]

Hmmmm
So are homologation bikes allowed?

I mean if I buy a Derbi 80cc Road Race supersport (fake bike - don't look it up) which effectively a racebike, but attempted to sell to the commuter customer market.
Could that be raced?

What I think we have right now is a problem with definition. We are claiming engines are race engines according to the chassis they are bolted into. Where in buckets you ripping it out of that chassis and putting it in a race chassis anyway.........
I think if we had 85mx engines in commuters - we suddenly would not have this definition problem.

i.e. either you can't get a 2-stroke 85cc non-race motor? or we are looking at the irrelevant frame/chassis too much and saying its a racebike?

From recall the PW80 is no longer available which means in the Yamaha new MX bike engines you are looking at the TTR110 @ 7hp or yz85 @ 15hp.
In the commuter you have nothing except 125cc scooter.
So basically that is 1 manufacturer out. (in the US at least - mabey NZ has better farm selection?)

So perhaps someone could do the other manufacturers. Lets see what new engines are actually available to future bucket users. That should decide the rules.

Other you will end up in a shambles like all those pre-8X, post-8X races I see (that keep moving the cut-off year).

I would hate to see you all nursing old motors or riding briggs and stratton 10 years from now because we decided to stay high an mighty about what we are willing to accept as a challenge.

What is this we shit? you live in another country might as well be mars.
WE understand the current rules, the current choice of engines does not set the rules, Frames have nothing to do with anything.
Scooters and monkey bikes are out. NZ has no problems with stinkwheels.
FXRs are not particularly old, still available, reasonably priced for their potential, plenty of parts available.
Isnt briggs and stratton a lawn mower engine? have you ever read the rules?

[Drew]

What is this we shit? you live in another country might as well be mars.
WE understand the current rules, the current choice of engines does not set the rules, Frames have nothing to do with anything.
Scooters and monkey bikes are out. NZ has no problems with stinkwheels.
FXRs are not particularly old, still available, reasonably priced for their potential, plenty of parts available.
Isnt briggs and stratton a lawn mower engine? have you ever read the rules?Wait, scooter motors aren't allowed? I thought there was a sidecar made from a scooter, it ran at the GP 'n' all...though Tina and Gordy were fucken spastic on it.

[TZ350]

WE understand the current rules, the current choice of engines does not set the rules. Scooters and monkey bikes are out.
Wait, scooter motors aren't allowed? I thought there was a sidecar made from a scooter, it ran at the GP 'n' all...

Good point, racing Scooters are another class but I to thought scooter engines/transmissions are Ok for Buckets but looking at the rules, again, apparently not.

24.2 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm carburettor, F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted to carburetion equivalent to a single 20mm carburettor.

[Drew]

Good point, racing Scooters are another class but I to thought scooter engines/transmissions are Ok for Buckets but looking at the rules, again, apparently not.

24.2 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm carburettor, F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted to carburetion equivalent to a single 20mm carburettor.Did you quote the wrong rule, or are you taking the piss?

I was thinking about a scooter motor, since fuel injected two strokes are readily available. They're all 125 or bigger though.

It seems there really is nothing currently, that is an easy bolt in and thrash option for lazy coonts like me.

[Grumph]

Did you quote the wrong rule, or are you taking the piss?

I was thinking about a scooter motor, since fuel injected two strokes are readily available. They're all 125 or bigger though.

It seems there really is nothing currently, that is an easy bolt in and thrash option for lazy coonts like me.

i'd assume at this stage of the thread, he is taking the piss - as legally, there's no difference between a scooter and a motorcycle. Both powered two wheelers....

You lot do realise that in the SI at least, we've had what pretty well equates to an 80cc motocross motor running in an RS frame for several years ? The Grey's Kawasaki 80 powered RS is unquestionably derived from a road bike - and runs well up the field when they bring it out. But by no means does it dominate....even though there is plenty of room for development left.

Again, i have no stance - but this one shows how it could work.

[TZ350]

Did you quote the wrong rule.

No don't think so, am I missing something?, it would not be the first time.


I was thinking about a scooter motor, since fuel injected two strokes are readily available. They're all 125 or bigger though.

I was shocked that I had overlooked/forgotten the "derived from motorcycles" bit because I have one of these tucked away. Water cooled 150cc CVT 2.5x17" front rim 3.5x16" rear rim, could argue its a motorcycle but it is sold as a scooter.

Was watching Sketchys project with interest as this could possibly be converted to 100 and supercharged and the water cooling would be a big plus. Or if the rules change to allow MX85's and 200cc 2 valvers, which this could become, whatever, this might be an interesting Bucket.

297114297115297116

I was tossing up whether to use the complete GTR rolling chassis or to fit the engine/transmission into a MC21 frame for something different. Weight might be a deciding factor on which frame to use.

And there are a few 2T 50cc CVT scooter units under the bench at work just in case we feel the urge to make some sort of hybrid F5 penny farthing thing.

297117

[Yow Ling]

i'd assume at this stage of the thread, he is taking the piss - as legally, there's no difference between a scooter and a motorcycle. Both powered two wheelers....

You lot do realise that in the SI at least, we've had what pretty well equates to an 80cc motocross motor running in an RS frame for several years ? The Grey's Kawasaki 80 powered RS is unquestionably derived from a road bike - and runs well up the field when they bring it out. But by no means does it dominate....even though there is plenty of room for development left.

Again, i have no stance - but this one shows how it could work.

Greys Kawasaki is an AR80 a roadbike so legal.

[TZ350]

you lot do realize that in the si at least, we've had what pretty well equates to an 80cc motocross motor running in an rs frame for several years ? The grey's kawasaki 80 powered rs is unquestionably derived from a road bike - and runs well up the field when they bring it out. But by no means does it dominate....

AR80 ....... there are air cooled and H2O versions, the H2O version looks very much like an early MX80 engine to me.

297118

[Drew]

No don't think so, am I missing something?, it would not be the first time.



I was shocked that I had overlooked/forgotten the "derived from motorcycles" bit because I have one of these tucked away. Water cooled 150cc CVT 2.5x17" front rim 3.5x16" rear rim, could argue its a motorcycle but it is sold as a scooter.

Was watching Sketchys project with interest as this could possibly be converted to 100 and supercharged and the water cooling would be a big plus. Or if the rules change to allow MX85's and 200cc 2 valvers, which this could become, whatever, this might be an interesting Bucket.

I was tossing up whether to use the complete GTR rolling chassis or to fit the engine/transmission into a MC21 frame for something different. Weight might be a deciding factor on which frame to use.

And there are a few 2T 50cc CVT scooter units under the bench at work just in case we feel the urge to make some sort of hybrid F5 penny farthing thing.A scooter is a motorcycle. Two wheels and a motor. It fits the definitions I can find with a quick google. They're legit.

The injected smokers have to be the best option to my mind. Even with the fucking around to get them down to 100cc. Mind, there is the almost fuel injection that strongly resemble a carb. Essentially just a main jet with pressure behind it.


Greys Kawasaki is an AR80 a roadbike so legal.Pretty sure Greg said it was undoubtedly legal.

[TZ350]

- as legally, there's no difference between a scooter and a motorcycle. Both powered two wheelers....

Is this true? I am sure MOT may think so but what is the consensus on the Ground, are Scooter engines/transmissions Ok for Buckets?

[Drew]

Is this true? I am sure MOT may think so but what is the consensus on the Ground, are Scooter engines/transmissions Ok for Buckets?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_definition_of_motorcycle

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/motorcycle

[Yow Ling]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_definition_of_motorcycle

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/motorcycle

Since when did the rules and MNZ directives come from Wikipedia or webster dictionary
What does webster dictionary say what f4 is or what a bucket is.

[Grumph]

Since when did the rules and MNZ directives come from Wikipedia or webster dictionary
What does webster dictionary say what f4 is or what a bucket is.

well, MNZ would undoubtedly kick it upstairs for a decision....somewhere in the FIM rules there's a definition but I can't be arsed looking.
I suspect it comes down to "powered 2 wheeler" anyway.

can i take it, Mike, we're not going to see gav on the scooter you bought ?

[Drew]

Since when did the rules and MNZ directives come from Wikipedia or webster dictionary
What does webster dictionary say what f4 is or what a bucket is.

F4 is not defined in a dictionary. The definition thereof would be found in the MNZ rules and regulations.

But since EVERY definition of a motorcycle boils down to the same thing, scooters are legal to be entered in competitive motorcycle racing.

[F5 Dave]

AR80 ....... there are air cooled and H2O versions, the H2O version looks very much like an early MX80 engine to me.

297118

Yeah apparently they can fit kx barrels. The RG50 has much in common with the old RM80 I think.

[underpowered80]

Greys Kawasaki is an AR80 a roadbike so legal.

That's correct Mike.1999 ninja ar80.After an extensive search ,we found our motor was built at a factory in the Philipines .Only 200 of these motors were built and fitted for testing.they were discontinued as they had a weakness in the engine cases. We were warned by Grumph to rebuild our bottom end,didnt listen,completely destroyed motor.We cant get parts for this model .So we sold our RS125GP frame. I am now looking at fitting or adapting kx80 engine cases.If successful we will fit motor in go cart for the grandkids.

ROBIN

[F5 Dave]

Well I would have never thought of contesting it butMike Iis rright
Bloody phone sorry

Anyway I think there would be no one who would contest the addition of scooter motor to the rules.

[husaberg]

Yeah apparently they can fit kx barrels. The RG50 has much in common with the old RM80 I think.

As is the MB50/100 early cr80 but like the Ar80 and the MB100 are fully legal, cause they were sold as commuter bikes.

[Ocean1]

And there are a few 2T 50cc CVT scooter units under the bench at work just in case we feel the urge to make some sort of hybrid F5 penny farthing thing.

297117

Which reminds me, all you 2T freaks...

An expansion chamber resonates at a frequency sympathetic with a reasonably wideish range of engine revs, yes?

Only, when I were a nipper I used to make things like this: http://www.hobbyking.com/mobile/viewproduct.asp?idproduct=34247

So, if you stuck a reed valve somewhere up front of an expansion chamber and dumped fuel in near the back would you generate thrust?


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Lf63jbhcphY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



Aaand 4Ts are allowed turbochargers if under 100cc?

Afterburners?

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[F5 Dave]

As is the MB50/100 early cr80 but like the Ar80 and the MB100 are fully legal, cause they were sold as commuter bikes.

No question. TZR 250 3XV share same case as the TZ bar kick er. But set up as a road bike.

[F5 Dave]

Hmm 'might' have some noise issues

[cotswold]

This has got me a bit keen, if I threw one in my Aprilia or the RS chassis and was happy not to score points would I be able to ride it in whichever grade I was quick enough to be in?

[jasonu]

This has got me a bit keen, if I threw one in my Aprilia or the RS chassis and was happy not to score points would I be able to ride it in whichever grade I was quick enough to be in?

I for one am dead against this sort of behavior. You can potentially and probably will have an effect on the outcome of a points race and thus the amount of points scored by championship contenders even if you don't actually get points yourself. Also this opens the door for others with marginal or outright not bucket legal bikes.

[avgas]

Scooters and monkey bikes are out. NZ has no problems with stinkwheels.
FXRs are not particularly old, still available, reasonably priced for their potential, plenty of parts available.
Isnt briggs and stratton a lawn mower engine? have you ever read the rules?
The B&S was a polite pun way to say "motors closer derived to cutting grass than racing bikes". As you could argue that rotax is technically a sports production motor or power-sports motor......so under those rules its out.

Not sure you mean by stinkwheels - motards I take it? If so good. They didn't a year ago. (Sorry they might have - but it was shunned). So hopefully that means you have lots of potential market with the TTR / DR's etc?

As for FXR not being old. It went into production in 97..........so its now 17 years old. I believe manufacturing for them stopped in 2006. So ever since then its been left-overs to assemble them.
Now 17 is still young for a bucket. But you should really be thinking about 5-10 years from now - considering it took the FXR a good 5 years before it was even allowed into buckets.
So the shear fact we are having this conversation - hopefully means in 5 years time there will be a new grade of bikes allowed in.

What you need to decide now - is should it be mx85's?

I will ignore the rest of your post. I like to keep NZ in a positive light.

Why were monkey bikes out? Would have thought they were relatively harmless?

[avgas]

I for one am dead against this sort of behavior. You can potentially and probably will have an effect on the outcome of a points race and thus the amount of points scored by championship contenders even if you don't actually get points yourself. Also this opens the door for others with marginal or outright not bucket legal bikes.
Just to clarify - are you saying that if you can't race competitively (i.e. to win the season), don't race in buckets?
That's a bit cold don't you think? Considering it is really and entry class (capacity/hp wise) to start with.

[jasonu]

Just to clarify - are you saying that if you can't race competitively (i.e. to win the season), don't race in buckets?
That's a bit cold don't you think? Considering it is really and entry class (capacity/hp wise) to start with.

No mate not at all. If someone on a not bucket legal but fast machine was allowed to race in points paying events that rider could and probably would have an effect on the other legal bikes points paying positions. If you want to race in buckets get a legal bike, there are plenty of options for all budgets.
BTW buckets isn't 'entry class' as you but it.

[husaberg]

AR80 ....... there are air cooled and H2O versions, the H2O version looks very much like an early MX80 engine to me.



297118
I had a look around and it seems to share very little (if anything) with the KX80 primary drive and gearbox all different ratios, stroke different etc......

[Kickaha]

No mate not at all. If someone on a not bucket legal but fast machine was allowed to race in points paying events that rider could and probably would have an effect on the other legal bikes points paying positions.

I've always thought it a bit dodgy,what if a guy on a illegal bike being allowed to run for no points crashes and takes out another competitor on a legal bike, that'd cause a bit of a shit storm

[jasonu]

I've always thought it a bit dodgy,what if a guy on a illegal bike being allowed to run for no points crashes and takes out another competitor on a legal bike, that'd cause a bit of a shit storm

Exactly.
Or dicing with someone who might otherwise be further up the field.

[F5 Dave]

Av in my last correspondence to you I was very rude and quite clear. 6 people. That's six individual people gave me rep for that one comment. Never have I had that support to any post in ten years on this forum. Fuck off and go annoy the motorcross fraternity with how you think they should run their sport. No one wants your opinion here. Seriously.

[F5 Dave]

My next post will blow this thread open. Have to wait till tomorrow. Photos included.

[Drew]

My next post will blow this thread open. Have to wait till tomorrow. Photos included.

You rode Glen's bike then.

[F5 Dave]

You'll have to wait stinkypants


BTW up to nine rep.

[Drew]

You'll have to wait stinkypants


BTW up to nine rep.You can't add the rep from the second post, to the first!

[Pumba]

.....Never have I had that support to any post in ten years on this forum.....

Bullshit. 10 Green reps for this one http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1412460#post1412460


fuck off and go annoy the motorcross fraternity with how you think they should run their sport. No one wants your opinion here. Seriously.

:first::niceone::stupid:

[Henk]

This has got me a bit keen, if I threw one in my Aprilia or the RS chassis and was happy not to score points would I be able to ride it in whichever grade I was quick enough to be in?

Nope........

[cotswold]

Nope........

I can take that as a maybe then?

[Henk]

You can take that as anything you like :)
The problem with running non legal bikes for no points is that as mentioned above they can get involved in dices with people that are playing by the rules and screw up their race.
We had similar issues with the combined C and F5 races which is why we ended up splitting them.

[Skunk]

So, no testing the idea to see if it works or not then.
Or is any organiser open the idea on non points races and just hasn't said so?


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[Henk]

I have no issue with someone building one as a proof of concept and I believe sketchy has already done this. I'd let them run at practice at Mt Welly but not in a race until they are legal.
I'm not sure what this would prove though, we know it can be done. The cynical bastard in me also says that anyone building one of these so that we can evaluate it is going to be firmly in the camp of wanting them in, they are hardly going to build something as fast as possible to start with, more likely to be a stock engine to start with and then start with the tuning once it's all go.
I can understand why people want these in, I'm just not all that convinced that we need it at the moment.

[Skunk]

Sketchy has built one and it is fast with him on it. But then my bucket was pretty good with him on it.
Yes, it is standard. Why not make that the rule?
Everyone goes on about how people will cheat and port them and everything but I've never seen any bike checked for capacity or race parts before anyway - so that argument is a non starter. Ie a bullshit excuse because they don't want them in for whatever reason.
I wasn't sure about it and told Sketchy I wasn't in favour of them. I have seen it. I think it will work with a couple of restrictions.
100cc two strokes have rule restrictions, 125cc two strokes have rule restrictions, four strokes have rule restrictions. Has anyone even looked at the various restrictions in F3? They work. Don't give another shit excuse about the rules will be unfair.
Or is everyone worried they might be outclassed, or is it that they only race because they can win and are scared of coming third?
Everything should be done to keep the class relevant and up to date. Certainly this has happened for the four strokes but not for the two strokes.
Even it up.
Give more options.
Or should we move the four strokes back to 125cc like they were and continue living in the 80s?

And no, I don't want to build one... Power valves, water cooling, it's all too complex for me.


If it ain't smokin' - it's broken.

[Mental Trousers]

How about a table.
<table><tr><td>&nbsp;</td><td>4 stroke</td><td>2 stroke</td></tr><tr>
<td>ace tuners</td><td>well catered for</td><td>well catered for</td></tr><tr>
<td>not tuners</td><td>FXR's galore</td><td>???</td></tr></table>

[TZ350]

Glen on bike 47 was in the races but not counted for points as the bike isn't legal. His on Track finishes were first in all races!

Not bad for a standard MX85???

[Henk]

I used to be dead against the whole idea, but I'm reconsidering.
I do think that if this goes ahead that stock won't work.
I also don't think all that many will get built, the change to the rules to allow FXRs was to make a bike that was readily available eligible. An MX based bike isn't a simple spoon on some slicks proposition.
I know it's the two stroke fans that are pushing this barrow but it those same guys that are most likely to be pissed about it as well. Those who have been putting in the work to get the performance they want under the current rules.
I can think of six two strokes off the top of my head that are performing as well or better than what a stock 85 is being suggested at.

[Mental Trousers]

Glen on bike 47 was in the races but not counted for points as the bike isn't legal. His on Track finishes were first in all races!

Not bad for a standard MX85???

Fixed that for you. As already mentioned Sketchy is a much better rider than most and on that day in that field will probably finish first on whatever he rides.

[quallman1234]

Fixed that for you. As already mentioned Sketchy is a much better rider than most and on that day in that field will probably finish first on whatever he rides.

I had a drag today with Sketchy on my FXR with a pipe/carb on it (~14hp). Nothing in it down a reasonably long straight (for bucket standards).
There was no one super fast out today. Sketchy would of won on any of the top 5 bikes there.
Its honestly not fast at all. Dave rode it, and will report in ;).

Ps. Its a RM85 in a RGV250 VJ21, with a GSXR600 rear shock. Handling wise its pretty good.

Remember Sketchy = Glen Skachill = Attended 3 National championship series in the 600 class. With many wins in that class, but unfortunately no championship.
Lap records : Manfield both F3 and 600's (I believe it has now been broken the 600 one), lap record hampton 600 (?) and i believe F3 lap record @ Pukie.
So yeah no average rider mate ;).

[avgas]

why the fuck do you come here? You have no place here and you're a complete dickhead. Fuck off.
Terribly sorry, I don't have time to read every post. I missed this one completely completely.

It was a reply to a post that only stated the situation. So clearly curse words rather than content get you up votes.
Hopefully by reposting it here - you get some more.

But I am curious are you now going against MX85's because I support them? At which case I will leave - on the proviso you go back to support them.
Keep in mind you opened the argument, so I figure you were changing towards them.

[avgas]

No mate not at all. If someone on a not bucket legal but fast machine was allowed to race in points paying events that rider could and probably would have an effect on the other legal bikes points paying positions. If you want to race in buckets get a legal bike, there are plenty of options for all budgets.
BTW buckets isn't 'entry class' as you but it.
Ah fair call. I misinterpreted it as "If your not in ranking for points don't race" - meaning those who are only attending one or a few races shouldn't attend.
Yes illegal machines is a different dilemma.

Out of interest - where would you rank buckets in the racing classes? Not arguing with it being entry (anymore). But I curious to see where you see buckets as a class.
My greatest fear is that the next new young thing will skip buckets and go straight to 125's. But that could be the way people rank the class these days.
If so - its a shame because Buckets was a great class to get a broad field of riders into one class. And with 150 streetstock disappearing into the background.....125 would be the next obvious choice to me for someone who wants to go racing (and is told they aren't skilled enough to do buckets).

[jasonu]

My next post will blow this thread open. Have to wait till tomorrow. Photos included.

Finally coming out eh Dave???
No need for pix mate...

[jasonu]

So, no testing the idea to see if it works or not then.
Or is any organiser open the idea on non points races and just hasn't said so?


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

How many no's do you need to get the message?
Get a legal bike and race as much as you want.

[TZ350]

Sketchy is a much better rider than most and on that day in that field will probably finish first on whatever he rides.

Its pretty obvious that if your not a good rider, your not going to be at the front no matter what you ride and Sketchys efforts show that a std MX85 can do the job.

We have a young guy up here doing very well on a tuned 85 too, so small 2T's in a light bike ridden by a skilled rider can be very competitive.


I do think that if this goes ahead that stock won't work.
I also don't think all that many will get built, the change to the rules to allow FXRs was to make a bike that was readily available eligible. An MX based bike isn't a simple spoon on some slicks proposition.

Totally agree, a keep it stock rule won't work but MX85 or tuned 85 something else is no easy path to the pointy end.

[Skunk]

So what you're saying is all 100's and 125's are legal without checking but the same people can't be trusted to make a legal 85 or that getting a standard 85 is not possible?


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[Skunk]

How many no's do you need to get the message?
Get a legal bike and race as much as you want.

Jeez you're a bit of a fuckwit aren't you? This thread is discussing how and if to bring in 85's. Not what the rules are. There is an 'or' in there if you read. Last time I checked you didn't currently organise races so shut up and let them reply.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[andrew a]

Ah fair call. I misinterpreted it as "If your not in ranking for points don't race" - meaning those who are only attending one or a few races shouldn't attend.
Yes illegal machines is a different dilemma.

Out of interest - where would you rank buckets in the racing classes? Not arguing with it being entry (anymore). But I curious to see where you see buckets as a class.

The most cost effective fun competitive class in the World!

[Pumba]

I know I should feed the troll but fuck it you are starting to piss me off


....Out of interest - where would you rank buckets in the racing classes? Not arguing with it being entry (anymore). But I curious to see where you see buckets as a class........

My answer who gives a fuck. To me it is a great social class that is affordable that I enjoy racing. Any class is whatever you want it to be. There is nothing stopping you being an "entry level" rider on a superbike (probally opening another can of worms with that statement if Billy sees it but that is not the point). Sure in my opinion (and many others) it is not the best place to start racing, but if that is what yoiu choose to do then you can.


My greatest fear is that the next new young thing will skip buckets and go straight to 125's. But that could be the way people rank the class these days.

Sure there is a logical progression that you start on smaller machines and progress learning skill, blah, blah, blah..... until you become MotoGP champ becasue that is what every fucking competative racer wants to be and that is all we should cater for in NZ:yawn:

If little fucking Johnny (or Johnny's Dad if he is paying the bills), or for that matter 20 somthing year old Steve earning good money a year with no wife and kids, thinks nah buckets arnt for me than that is there choice


if so - its a shame because Buckets was a great class to get a broad field of riders into one class. And with 150 streetstock disappearing into the background.....125 would be the next obvious choice to me for someone who wants to go racing (and is told they aren't skilled enough to do buckets).

And I see no reason for the make up of the class to change with or without the 85's. I cannot even fathom anybody ever telling anyone that they arenot skilled enough to do buckets most "real road racers" thinkk we are pond scum and a large portion will tell us to our face.

Now I am sure you are having fun but pull your fucking head in and stop comenting and matters you know nothing about.

[F5 Dave]

Well the opportunity arose to ride this cheat bike in the weekend. In the spirit of full cheat process I slipped out in B grade to increase the general level of cheatability.

Glen rode my 50 for giggles. This posed a problem. Clearly I couldn’t let him beat me.

We started a couple of corners back from the startline so not to burgle the B graders till they sorted themselves out.

First impressions were Golly this bike is tall & where the hell are the footpegs. Ooof yup ok on them. I’ve always raced 50s & they are small & I’ve made them as low to the ground as possible. The H100 I raced for several years was more like a trailbike.

But my strengths sadly are not for quick adaption to other bikes. Esp when the pegs are so high I can’t hang off properly. No matter.

Get a good launch outdragging Glen next to me, Ha!

Ok fast forward a few laps while I start to get my head around this bike. I might mention that by this time Glen has passed me & buggered off. But I won’t.
My lasting impression is that if I could get my 50 to go this well I’d be rapt. You can learn to keep it on the boil but you need to use the clutch & every gear you can throw at it.

But its not quick. No chance of outdragging anyone. If my 100 was this slow I’d assume something was wrong with it.

By the time I’m back in the pits I’d figured that std these things aren’t much chop at all.

OK so how good is Glen’s motor? Freshly rebuilt, squish done, ignition set up on the dyno. Powervalves which are apparently very touchy were set up on the dyno. Only thing that hasn’t been sorted on the dyno is the jetting. It feels about right but there might be more to come.

Oh here are a couple of pics.

You might note the tongue in cheek writing on the barrel. But the muppet chose a Enduro bike. Should have said DS80 or something.

[kel]

But its not quick. No chance of outdragging anyone. If my 100 KEPT GOING FOR THIS LONG I’d assume something was wrong with it.
Fixed it for you :lol:

[F5 Dave]

I resemble that statement

[Skunk]

Confirms what I suspected. A skilled rider can go fast but it won't help a slow one. It looks good at this stage as an engine option.
Now we need to check out a worked engine to be sure before any rule changes get proposed.
It would be good if this can all be checked at Ruapuna as well.
FXRs 'saved' buckets but killed your average two strokes. Let's not do the same again.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[cotswold]

I like this idea because I love 2 strokes, they are more satisfying to ride just because they are more difficult to go fast on, I am not a tuner, I can barely handle a spanner which is the reason that during the 10 years I raced 125's in Pomgolia I had a mechanic.
I would just be happy to get out on the track with a 2T that is not all special parts and is freely available. You detractors have mentioned the Derbi that cleans up the field where ever it goes, show me where I can get one for $650 and I'll buy it, I still would not win on it.
I could still be riding Johns FXR, don't get me wrong I enjoyed riding it but it did not tick all the box's, I tried building a GP125 but ran out enthusiasm as time went on because they are not that dumb-ass friendly to build and some of the tricky bits I needed to rely on other folk who also have their own lives to live and projects to be getting on with.
I have been happier on my crappy old 50 not being lapped by Tim and DD than when I finished 3rd in the NI's on an FXR.
Let them in and if they clean up (which they wont) add a few amendments to the rules.

[F5 Dave]

Well I think we need to move with caution. MNZ rules are not decided by Kiwibiker threads, but this is a good medium to float some ideas about.

The increase in capacity from 125 to 140 for diesels evened up the field somewhat, meant you could buy a Lonchin or GL or overbore your CB. The move to 150 let in FXRs and made the 2 valver 4 strokers obsolete. (ok maybe JC's 140 twins, - but look who was piloting them). It also made older 2 strokes obsolete unless you knew what you were doing & could tune the crap out of them.

Anyone disagree with the above statement?

I don't think anyone would disagree with the sentiment that that rule change boosted bucket numbers (& possibly 'saved' bucket racing, or at least made it far more popular, I think it would be going still just not as popular).

I'm now confident MX85s in std form will not obsolete anything in the way FXRs did. At least RM85s won't. So what if a Euro company produces a real monster? Maybe the new KTM is that monster?

And what of the potential to tune them? These are things we should ruminate. If we did introduce them I'd favour a staged restriction like CDI & pipe diameter. I'd like to include pipe length to reduce revs but that's too hard to measure. Pipe diameter measurement is a piece of cardboard with a max slot cut into it.

[husaberg]

Well I think we need to move with caution. MNZ rules are not decided by Kiwibiker threads, but this is a good medium to float some ideas about.

The increase in capacity from 125 to 140 for diesels evened up the field somewhat, meant you could buy a Lonchin or GL or overbore your CB. The move to 150 let in FXRs and made the 2 valver 4 strokers obsolete. (ok maybe JC's 140 twins, - but look who was piloting them). It also made older 2 strokes obsolete unless you knew what you were doing & could tune the crap out of them.

Anyone disagree with the above statement?

I don't think anyone would disagree with the sentiment that that rule change boosted bucket numbers (& possibly 'saved' bucket racing, or at least made it far more popular, I think it would be going still just not as popular).

I'm now confident MX85s in std form will not obsolete anything in the way FXRs did. At least RM85s won't. So what if a Euro company produces a real monster? Maybe the new KTM is that monster?

And what of the potential to tune them? These are things we should ruminate. If we did introduce them I'd favour a staged restriction like CDI & pipe diameter. I'd like to include pipe length to reduce revs but that's too hard to measure. Pipe diameter measurement is a piece of cardboard with a max slot cut into it.

I know i sound like a broken record here but before we get to carried away why not fix the problems with the parts now before letting in COMP bikes.
I have ridden the newer KTM 50 and the 65 and with back to backs with the older versions they are a totally user friendly new breed.
I would expect the 85 is the same. They are not cheap either. so if it has to be done the late ones should be a no go area.
i think if letting them in is about "accessibility options" maybe no one should have issues with carb pipe, CDI std cc and std porting then?

[F5 Dave]

2010 cut off perhaps?

[F5 Dave]

Hey we're on the front Home page as 2nd on the most replied threads, presumably with a trending average over a recent period.

23 pages, sheesh!

[Drew]

I know i sound like a broken record here but before we get to carried away why not fix the problems with the parts now before letting in COMP bikes.
I have ridden the newer KTM 50 and the 65 and with back to backs with the older versions they are a totally user friendly new breed.
I would expect the 85 is the same. They are not cheap either. so if it has to be done the late ones should be a no go area.
i think if letting them in is about "accessibility options" maybe no one should have issues with carb pipe, CDI std cc and std porting then?


2010 cut off perhaps?Oh yeah, implement a rule that means you can only get fucked ones. Good one!

Retarded I'm afraid guys, just fucken retarded. Isn't the goal to get a level playing field between two and four strokes, coupled with a decent availability of parts for all? Then putting an age limit on them to fuck all that right up.

[husaberg]

Oh yeah, implement a rule that means you can only get fucked ones. Good one!

Retarded I'm afraid guys, just fucken retarded. Isn't the goal to get a level playing field between two and four strokes, coupled with a decent availability of parts for all? Then putting an age limit on them to fuck all that right up.

Drew if people just keep banging on "it isn't about having the most HP" "it is about doing it cheap and easy cause i am not a tuner"
where is the issue.............
So is it then what you are really saying then is it is about having the most up to date engine with the most potential HP?
Because that has not been mentioned in the thread at all, as far as i am aware............

[Drew]

Drew if people just keep banging on "it isn't about having the most HP" "it is about doing it cheap and easy cause i am not a tuner"
where is the issue.............
So is it then what you are really saying then is it is about having the most up to date engine with the most potential HP?I just want a semi competitive motor, to send people out on my bike with.

Without having to fuck around too much.

I can set a bike up, but getting a two stroke to run nice is not my strongest suit. Starting with old shitters just compounds the problem.

[Kickaha]

The move to 150 let in FXRs and made the 2 valver 4 strokers obsolete.
Wash your mouth out with battery acid you heathen, there were a lot of FXR riding poofters finishing behind me at BOB

[Drew]

Wash your mouth out with battery acid you heathen, there were a lot of FXR riding poofters finishing behind me at BOBYeah yeah, you're a hero.

Out of interest, how many hours did Greg put into making the GN motor...well...not a GN motor?

[husaberg]

I just want a semi competitive motor, to send people out on my bike with.

Without having to fuck around too much.

I can set a bike up, but getting a two stroke to run nice is not my strongest suit. Starting with old shitters just compounds the problem.

Sounds retarded....................:bleh:
Drew other than maybe the CBR150 have a look arround they are all based on old shitter's.
that's why it is an inexpensive (comparatively specking) class.
Where are all these brand new cheap late model 85MX engines going to come from.......
The current rules exclude the MX engines they always have.
A few people now are saying oh i want to just put in the engine and run them as i am not a tuner then they will not be that fast.......
They will be cheap...it's just for the lil jonies, etc
Then you waltz in oh f- that i want a late model one...........:scratch:

[F5 Dave]

The point is they are so cheap to refresh they shouldn't be poked. The 80s that preceded them likely will be. 2010 is newer than any other bucket I can think of. I feel you are being harsh and unfair. I also know that yer a tight fisted winker and there's no way you'd be shelling out for something made this century unless someone gave it to you.

[Kickaha]

Out of interest, how many hours did Greg put into making the GN motor...well...not a GN motor?

No idea but it can't of been that many as he didn't charge much, I already knew what i wanted to do he just found a simpler way of doing it

[TZ350]

Out of interest - where would you rank buckets in the racing classes?
The most cost effective fun competitive class in the World!

Where HP is still being built out back in the shed 297190 not brought. 297189

[Drew]

The point is they are so cheap to refresh they shouldn't be poked. The 80s that preceded them likely will be. 2010 is newer than any other bucket I can think of. I feel you are being harsh and unfair. I also know that yer a tight fisted winker and there's no way you'd be shelling out for something made this century unless someone gave it to you.

Think what ya like, but there are two guys waiting to ride the bucket now, and I'd rather just bolt some pretty good motor in and tell them. "Have at it cunts".

[Bert]

Where HP is still being built out back in the shed 297190 not brought. 297189

I totally agree TZ. but isn't some of the underlying tension (with some not all) around the pure fact that a Derbi (which are not common here in NZ) and $$ can make a seriously fast two stroke within the current rules.

not with standing the fact that the rider did/does a fantastic job , every-time he is out on it...


And people are spending money now rather than doing it themselves. two and four strokes.
Opening up a set of rules aimed directly at the 85cc (note nothing about changing other rules) is not going to change the culture of tinkering.
Which does mean the rules would have to be tight to start off with (shit I'm repeating myself)...

back to cost
I know that rebuilding a 85 would be cheaper than my TZR conversion/build; but hay what would I know...
Husa how much beer have you missed out on over the past 5 years? man you must be a real thirsty bugger by now....



Wash your mouth out with battery acid you heathen, there were a lot of FXR riding poofters finishing behind me at BOB

hahaha too true

[Yow Ling]

I am neither for or against them.If they are introduced as a stock or controlled category the controls could mitigate any advantage gained from the competition parts.
Most of the posters on here are posting as though the only bucket racing happens on kart tracks and are formulating their want lists based on their personal needs.
How would these engines go on a full track like ruapuna or a street race like greymouth or methven ?
I suspect the uptake would be fairly low, with FXRs you can buy an engine , buy the amount of tuning you can afford, get reasonable advice from any number of clever people
with 2 strokes its much more cloak and daggerand the clever people probably wont be interested in rebuilding stock engines.
For just a few thousand dollars more you can have a water cooled 100 with 10 or 12 more hp but uglier gear ratios.

Interesting comments earlier in the thread about aircooled 2Ts being too dangerous (in aus?) this sounds like its in line with some of recent history with the big hp gp125s and kes up north, would they finish a race at ruapuna?

I dont think having 85's would do any harm but they arent the magic bullet either

A few weeks ago I watched a srteetstock 150/ bucket race at ruapuna Matt and Al Hoogie were ahead of the rest of the field including the RG150's and KR150's by 3/4 the length of the front straight they were riding FXR and CBR respectivly, so the death notices of the diesel brigade may be premature

[Yow Ling]

Think what ya like, but there are two guys waiting to ride the bucket now, and I'd rather just bolt some pretty good motor in and tell them. "Have at it cunts".

Drew do you actually race buckets? You sure have alot to say about them.

[Skunk]

Most of the posters on here are posting as though the only bucket racing happens on kart tracks and are formulating their want lists based on their personal needs.

I dont think having 85's would do any harm but they arent the magic bullet either.
I agree. That's why I asked about how they would go done there. I don't see them as a magic bullet either - just an option.
If someone spends the time/money that is spent on some FXRs that it will produce the same-ish result. While still being viable as a good engine without mods.

Serious question: would anyone use an air cooled 125 as a bolt in engine to race mid pack?


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[husaberg]

Husa how much beer have you missed out on over the past 5 years? man you must be a real thirsty bugger by now....

3 years on 27 July so f-ing heaps.......
On the plus side i am NF4 size now..........

[Drew]

Drew do you actually race buckets? You sure have alot to say about them.

Nope. I have built one a couple times, but that's the fun in it for me. Rather do that and let people who want to ride them, ride them.

[steamroller]

Nope. I have built one a couple times, but that's the fun in it for me. Rather do that and let people who want to ride them, ride them.

I have never seen it every last a lap:brick:

[Grumph]

No idea but it can't of been that many as he didn't charge much, I already knew what i wanted to do he just found a simpler way of doing it

What's the old saying - an engineer is someone who can find a way of doing something for 50cents when it costs others 5 dollars...
(monetary units updated)

Air cooled 125's can work - how many on here were passed by Kev at greymouth ? And he won't let me get another easy 5 hp out of it...

We saw justin Grey at greymouth and BOB more than once - that was the sort of performance level you can expect to begin with if 80/85's come in.

[Drew]

I have never seen it every last a lap:brick:

It's done a couple full sessions, but not a good percentage of how many it's started.

Still, ya get that when the challenge is to knock it out in a day.

[koba]

I have finally caught up!

I'm loving the constructive debate here, it is good to see the ideas being thrown about amongst a bunch of good mate who race together regularly. We do have to be mindful that the South Island contingent is underrepresented in this though.


As an interesting point for price context, I run a MB 100, it was on the standard bore when I purchased the entire bike for $400.

About 4? years later, (Overdue somewhat) I've just gone out to the first oversize.

To buy a new MB piston and rod kit, both TKRJ replacement parts, was a total for around $220. (Bad memory)
To pay someone to do the rebore was $131.10.

Rod kit, rebore and piston $351.10.

That really ain't too bad!

[Sketchy_Racer]

Wash your mouth out with battery acid you heathen, there were a lot of FXR riding poofters finishing behind me at BOB

How many also finished in front ;)


Where HP is still being built out back in the shed 297190 not brought. 297189

Whilst this is true, we really cant start comparing it to "buying" HP. Lets be honest there are now 4 bucket purposed dynos that I can think of off the top of my head and I would hate to think how much money has been accumulatively spent over the years with engine development "on the cheap"

Just a new die grinder here, a new cylinder here, how about this new carb, what about this ignition system here.... It all adds up very very fast to the point that the "$300" old school 2T motor has now cost thousands to build even if tools etc are a recoverable cost. But building a even mid level bike in the shed with a file and a die grinder are long gone in buckets.



Most of the posters on here are posting as though the only bucket racing happens on kart tracks and are formulating their want lists based on their personal needs.
How would these engines go on a full track like ruapuna or a street race like greymouth or methven ?
I suspect the uptake would be fairly low, with FXRs you can buy an engine , buy the amount of tuning you can afford, get reasonable advice from any number of clever people
with 2 strokes its much more cloak and daggerand the clever people probably wont be interested in rebuilding stock engines.
For just a few thousand dollars more you can have a water cooled 100 with 10 or 12 more hp but uglier gear ratios.

Interesting comments earlier in the thread about aircooled 2Ts being too dangerous (in aus?) this sounds like its in line with some of recent history with the big hp gp125s and kes up north, would they finish a race at ruapuna?

I dont think having 85's would do any harm but they arent the magic bullet either

A few weeks ago I watched a srteetstock 150/ bucket race at ruapuna Matt and Al Hoogie were ahead of the rest of the field including the RG150's and KR150's by 3/4 the length of the front straight they were riding FXR and CBR respectivly, so the death notices of the diesel brigade may be premature

They would be quite a bit slower than a 4T with less power and more curve. It's all about average HP though the rev range of the gear box. Example being is my 85 vs Kyles FXR. The FXR is 13hp and the 85 is 16HP on the same dyno on the same night so it's apples for apples. Which one should be faster? Well it would seem intuitive that the 85 would have the advantage on the track here with it's considerable % of HP over the FXR. The reality is that on the track it is neck and neck. This is becuase the FXR makes 13HP from 5k rpm to 12k rpm so in any gear at any time he has nearly 13hp to use. The 85 on the other hand starts at the bottom of the gear at 10HP hits a peak of 16HP then drops to 8HP before hitting the next gear. This makes it super exciting to ride but ultimately not fast at all.

This is certainly not a case of death to the 4T at all! I want to emphasise this as the sole purpose and my own personal agenda to the 85s are that I really want a "modern" 2T with good reliability for the stock HP output and easily avaliable parts that are nice and cheap. I'm not arguing that you cant get good cheap parts for some of the other older bikes but if they ruin a crank, they certainly wont have one in the post the next day.



I have finally caught up!

I'm loving the constructive debate here, it is good to see the ideas being thrown about amongst a bunch of good mate who race together regularly. We do have to be mindful that the South Island contingent is underrepresented in this though.


As an interesting point for price context, I run a MB 100, it was on the standard bore when I purchased the entire bike for $400.

About 4? years later, (Overdue somewhat) I've just gone out to the first oversize.

To buy a new MB piston and rod kit, both TKRJ replacement parts, was a total for around $220. (Bad memory)
To pay someone to do the rebore was $131.10.

Rod kit, rebore and piston $351.10.

That really ain't too bad!

Yep its been a good convo which is nice for a change on a forum especially when it comes to a controversial subject such as this.

That's a good price for the MB stuff for sure!

[F5 Dave]

. .
Most of the posters on here are posting as though the only bucket racing happens on kart tracks and are formulating their want lists based on their personal needs.
How would these engines go on a full track like ruapuna or a street race like greymouth or methven ?

. . actually good point. The answer is that taller gearing will have a bigger detrimental effect on peaky bikes. Flat curves make high top speed easier too.

[Grumph]

actually good point. The answer is that taller gearing will have a bigger detrimental effect on peaky bikes. Flat curves make high top speed easier too.

correct - but this is the one area where Husa has a point....The close ratio boxes in the 80/85's will have a bigger influence on the long tracks. From experience with post classic singles, when we went close ratio we gained about 20kph top speed due to the better through the gears acceleration - and the smaller gap 4th to top.

And koba - yes, good MB parts prices - but by ChCh standards the bore job is very expensive....

[husaberg]

correct - but this is the one area where Husa has a point....The close ratio boxes in the 80/85's will have a bigger influence on the long tracks. From experience with post classic singles, when we went close ratio we gained about 20kph top speed due to the better through the gears acceleration - and the smaller gap 4th to top.

And koba - yes, good MB parts prices - but by ChCh standards the bore job is very expensive....
The "one area" Greg what about the parts parody, no competition rods and bearings for Current f4 and 5 but open slather for MX85's.
The MX85 are designed from scratch to be a competition bike. It is there sole reason for existance.
The other bikes (which are eligible) are not, So then if the rules are to be changed is 15cc enough............
Lastly I don't think it is fair to use the Grey 80 as a example of what an MX85 is capable of, No offence but is the Grey 80 case reed with a power valve and a CR gearbox? Or is it a modified road bike engine.

Sketchy said about the power range on the 85, Seriously a stepper Pj and a decent pipe and an adjustable ignition and some minor work will fix those issues easily. Does anyone disagree with that?

[F5 Dave]

Mb50 gearbox is pretty good in the 100 and so is the kawi KE gearbox.

[F5 Dave]

My MB100 is case reed with what was probably very similar to a CR80 gearbox. No PV though.

[kel]

Mb50 gearbox is pretty good in the 100 and so is the kawi KE gearbox.
Yes best part of the motor. I have had my cranks (more than one) machined so can run RGV250 big end bearings (easy when you spend the time and money) so not only do I have a great gearbox but also a fancy flat cage big end bearing. I have phenolic main bearings, a selection of conrods from 100mm to 110mm, straight cut primarys and rotary valve induction as well. Not a bad setup for a non comp motor but it sure isnt in reach of everyone as I havent seen a single KE motor for sale in more than 2 years! Has anyone mentioned that I have almost 50% capacity advantage over the MX85's?

And for Husa. Aprilia works racer cylinder cores (at how many thousand?) for making supposed non competition cylinders, paying Wobbly god knows how much for engine work and design etc etc yet he doubts his wallet and 17.7% capacity advantage so much that he's worried about MX85's :laugh:

MX85's vs non comp 100's vs 150 4 strokes. Looks to me that a well designed 100cc water cooled 2 stroke should still have a sizeable advantage.

Now where did I leave that kit Derbi 50mm cylinder thats being grafted on to the spare KE bottom end? 32hp anyone :sick:

[Sketchy_Racer]

correct - but this is the one area where Husa has a point....The close ratio boxes in the 80/85's will have a bigger influence on the long tracks. From experience with post classic singles, when we went close ratio we gained about 20kph top speed due to the better through the gears acceleration - and the smaller gap 4th to top.

And koba - yes, good MB parts prices - but by ChCh standards the bore job is very expensive....

The 85 close ratio box is still not close enough on the tarmac with the stock power curve, It uses quite a bit of clutch to have a chance at keeping it in the power. Longer gearing for faster tracks would make it worse.


The "one area" Greg what about the parts parody, no competition rods and bearings for Current f4 and 5 but open slather for MX85's.
The MX85 are designed from scratch to be a competition bike. It is there sole reason for existance.
The other bikes (which are eligible) are not, So then if the rules are to be changed is 15cc enough............
Lastly I don't think it is fair to use the Grey 80 as a example of what an MX85 is capable of, No offence but is the Grey 80 case reed with a power valve and a CR gearbox? Or is it a modified road bike engine.

Sketchy said about the power range on the 85, Seriously a stepper Pj and a decent pipe and an adjustable ignition and some minor work will fix those issues easily. Does anyone disagree with that?

So I think you might be putting a little to much emphasis on the level of the 85 engines tune. They are built as a good engine but certainly claiming them as race engines is marginal. As for some numbers, lets say that getting 30HP out of a 100cc (300HP per litre) engine is certainly achievable and if we applied the percentage offset of the capacity which is 15% then the 85cc would be capable of 25.5HP at the same HP per litre. Even at 330 HP per litre (same as good RS125) they would still only make 28.05HP and lets be honest, no one will get 330HP per litre without some serious time and effort. It would be easier to do a 100cc non competition to 300HP per litre. And to really top it off even if someone got 28HP out of one of these it would still get wasted by a FXR150 with 24HP and a nice flat torque curve.

Your argument is a little flawed in claiming that they are race engines but then suggesting that by adding some simple parts would instantly make them a lot better. If this was the case and it really was large change in the engine performance dont you think that the manufactures would have done it in the first place if the really were "race engines"

At the end of the day if you define them as competition engines or not, they are motors that were built for little johnny. They are most certainly not close to GP engines.


Mb50 gearbox is pretty good in the 100 and so is the kawi KE gearbox.

The MB50 gear box is as good as the RM85 box. Maybe better as the 85 first gear is a little tall to get it off the line I have found

[Drew]

The "one area" Greg what about the parts parody, no competition rods and bearings for Current f4 and 5 but open slather for MX85's.
The MX85 are designed from scratch to be a competition bike. It is there sole reason for existance.
The other bikes (which are eligible) are not, So then if the rules are to be changed is 15cc enough............
Lastly I don't think it is fair to use the Grey 80 as a example of what an MX85 is capable of, No offence but is the Grey 80 case reed with a power valve and a CR gearbox? Or is it a modified road bike engine.

Sketchy said about the power range on the 85, Seriously a stepper Pj and a decent pipe and an adjustable ignition and some minor work will fix those issues easily. Does anyone disagree with that?

Which is the point of the conversation. "Should they be permitted into the rules?"

[kel]

And to really top it off even if someone got 28HP
I have no doubt that 28hp is achieveable. I hate it when I do this but; Husa is right about the PJ carb, porting, programmable ignition and pipe, throw in some serious set up and dyno time and 28hp will come.
The top 100cc non comp 2 stroke all ready makes 30hp. The best 4 strokes all ready make 28hp. I see no problem with a 85MX tuned to 28hp.

[husaberg]

The 85 close ratio box is still not close enough on the tarmac with the stock power curve, It uses quite a bit of clutch to have a chance at keeping it in the power. Longer gearing for faster tracks would make it worse.



So I think you might be putting a little to much emphasis on the level of the 85 engines tune. They are built as a good engine but certainly claiming them as race engines is marginal. As for some numbers, lets say that getting 30HP out of a 100cc (300HP per litre) engine is certainly achievable and if we applied the percentage offset of the capacity which is 15% then the 85cc would be capable of 25.5HP at the same HP per litre. Even at 330 HP per litre (same as good RS125) they would still only make 28.05HP and lets be honest, no one will get 330HP per litre without some serious time and effort. It would be easier to do a 100cc non competition to 300HP per litre. And to really top it off even if someone got 28HP out of one of these it would still get wasted by a FXR150 with 24HP and a nice flat torque curve.

Your argument is a little flawed in claiming that they are race engines but then suggesting that by adding some simple parts would instantly make them a lot better. If this was the case and it really was large change in the engine performance dont you think that the manufactures would have done it in the first place if the really were "race engines"

At the end of the day if you define them as competition engines or not, they are motors that were built for little johnny. They are most certainly not close to GP engines.



The MB50 gear box is as good as the RM85 box. Maybe better as the 85 first gear is a little tall to get it off the line I have found

The Mx 85 are race engines built to race i don't think anyone can honesty disagree with this.
The MX85 are of course designed with some compromises such as longevity factors and ultimately cost.
The MX bikes do in most cases in std spec as delivered have a power spread that is narrower than a highly developed bike such as Mikes MB100.
This is due to a number of factors one being the surface they race on allows the engines to get back into the power band by breaking traction.

But this is able to be rectified. which is something that needs to be coinsidered. As I pointed out in my last post.
The way it is able to be achieved is clearly detailed in the ESE thread.
While they are not GP engines as you stated, they are miles in advance in design and construction to the legal bikes available.
While the 85's until KTM started getting serious admittedly stagnated but the new ones are to all intents and purposes pretty much a GP engine. KTM85 (Very close in design to the last 2 stroke gp engines.)

As for the Gearbox compare the ratios of both the MB50 and the Cr80's the results are Night and day then compare them to the other 2 strokes you will get a worse result.
That said Mb spread of ratios is just the best of a bad bunch
When I can be bothered I will post the ratios.

[Sketchy_Racer]

I have no doubt that 28hp is achieveable. I hate it when I do this but; Husa is right about the PJ carb, porting, programmable ignition and pipe, throw in some serious set up and dyno time and 28hp will come.
The top 100cc non comp 2 stroke all ready makes 30hp. The best 4 strokes all ready make 28hp. I see no problem with a 85MX tuned to 28hp.

Achievable sure, but probable? I would love to see it done. But getting up near GP engine HP per litre outputs is impressive.

28HP out of the 4T's im not sure about, whos got that much? The fastest one I know is Richbans FXR and I not going to lie I'm dubious about the numbers off of a lot of the dynos around.

I watched a FXR with a claimed 20+ HP on one dyno struggle to pull away from one that has 14HP on another dyno.

After all the discussion I am really having a hard time to understand where an constructive argument against the 85s are coming from.

They are just another motor for those who want new and available 2Ts with a maximum tunability as any other bike in the current rules in terms of power (although personally I think they will be slower than the other tuned bikes)

And at the end of the day, If you don't like it don't get one but let the 2T crowd have some new motors!! It's not going to make anyone's bike redundant and the uptake to 85 engines would be minimal but it is an option!

[Sketchy_Racer]

The Mx 85 are race engines built to race i don't think anyone can honesty disagree with this.
The MX85 are of course designed with some compromises such as longevity factors and ultimately cost.
The MX bikes do in most cases in std spec as delivered have a power spread that is narrower than a highly developed bike such as Mikes MB100.
This is due to a number of factors one being the surface they race on allows the engines to get back into the power band by breaking traction.

But this is able to be rectified. which is something that needs to be coinsidered. As I pointed out in my last post.
The way it is able to be achieved is clearly detailed in the ESE thread.
While they are not GP engines as you stated, they are miles in advance in design and construction to the legal bikes available.
While the 85's until KTM started getting serious admittedly stagnated but the new ones are to all intents and purposes pretty much a GP engine. KTM85 (Very close in design to the last 2 stroke gp engines.)

As for the Gearbox compare the ratios of both the MB50 and the Cr80's the results are Night and day then compare them to the other 2 strokes you will get a worse result.
That said Mb spread of ratios is just the best of a bad bunch
When I can be bothered I will post the ratios.

Yes I can't say I disagree with you comments at all, they are based around being used for MX racing and they are certainly quite a bit more advanced than a old MB100 etc. Which is the whole point. I know you are seeing these things as an unfairness towards the non competition engines but that is where the 15% capacity restriction curbs the power output and also will inherently make them harder to ride as the power comes up and the torque curve gets a big spike in it.

I can't comment on the MB50 gearbox on larger tracks, but I can say that on the kart tracks there is literally no advantage what so ever to the RM box VS the MB box. Numbers are numbers but on the track it's a moot point (on kart tracks at least)

At the end of the day these motors are already in buckets, they just have the name DERBI on the side of them instead of Suzuki or Kawasaki etc and I think that it is silly that we restrict ourselves as 2T enthusiast to redundant engines or ones that are a real pain in the ass to get and cost a bomb. 2Ts are not long of this world if the current trend keeps going so get them in an enjoy them before it's too late!

[husaberg]

Yes I can't say I disagree with you comments at all, they are based around being used for MX racing and they are certainly quite a bit more advanced than a old MB100 etc. Which is the whole point. I know you are seeing these things as an unfairness towards the non competition engines but that is where the 15% capacity restriction curbs the power output and also will inherently make them harder to ride as the power comes up and the torque curve gets a big spike in it.

I can't comment on the MB50 gearbox on larger tracks, but I can say that on the kart tracks there is literally no advantage what so ever to the RM box VS the MB box. Numbers are numbers but on the track it's a moot point (on kart tracks at least)

At the end of the day these motors are already in buckets, they just have the name DERBI on the side of them instead of Suzuki or Kawasaki etc and I think that it is silly that we restrict ourselves as 2T enthusiast to redundant engines or ones that are a real pain in the ass to get and cost a bomb. 2Ts are not long of this world if the current trend keeps going so get them in an enjoy them before it's too late!


There is a lot of agreement on the thread but some simple things need to be sorted.
We have a bunch of individuals touting them as an option viable option for non tuners then a group saying they have to be able to be tuned as well.
Which camp are you in?
I will go on the record as saying if they make the 85's legal; (with no restrictions) i will buy kate model KTM85 and biff out my current NSR125 project.
I sincerely believe the parity is on the side of the 85 if there is no restriction on them.
I will of course never actually complete it of course ;)

[cotswold]

I will of course never actually complete it of course ;)

Bingo, this is what happens to many 2T builds (mine) as they are not easy and working with older engines is as I found out at some expense is a pain in the arse.
I'm over 1/2 a century and would like to have been riding my 2T f4 bike but have wasted 2 years with my failed GP125 project. With an 85 I could have been out riding the thing with a smile on the dial from the outset and if I wanted a bit more than stock could have a spare motor to play with and still had change.

[kel]

Now where did I leave that kit Derbi 50mm cylinder thats being grafted on to the spare KE bottom end? 32hp anyone :sick:

Found it

297202

[Sketchy_Racer]

There is a lot of agreement on the thread but some simple things need to be sorted.
We have a bunch of individuals touting them as an option viable option for non tuners then a group saying they have to be able to be tuned as well.
Which camp are you in?
I will go on the record as saying if they make the 85's legal; (with no restrictions) i will buy kate model KTM85 and biff out my current NSR125 project.
I sincerely believe the parity is on the side of the 85 if there is no restriction on them.
I will of course never actually complete it of course ;)

It bothers me that you would ditch your current project in favor of the 85 if it were to be legal. I guess it's a matter of opinion but I believe that the maximum performance potential would still be with the 100s not the 85s.

Out of curiosity have you ridden a MX 85 in road trim? It really is an eye opener, and I am honestly not exaggerating. In stock form they are pretty terrible in terms of an "ideal" engine. But they have reasonable power are easy to get and get parts for and in stock form would be incredibly reliable.

I am in both camps. Personally I wont tune mine, I've got my supercharger project, but I want to see what people could do with them and see how much they can get out of them. If I got in touch with some of the MX tuners I could probably get an idea but I have a chip in shoulder about claimed HP on dynos so numbers are realistically irrelevant.

[CHOPPA]

I have an engine!

[F5 Dave]

Found it

297202

You got a spare? I'll write "NSR80" on the side of it with a Sharpie, drill some holes in it & bolt it up to the MB. :cool:

[Drew]

I have an engine!

I have everything else!

[husaberg]

You got a spare? I'll write "NSR80" on the side of it with a Sharpie, drill some holes in it & bolt it up to the MB. :cool:

I am guessing you have not seen the Late KTM85/105 cylinder then, it is basically a production Aprillia none of this bridged port nonsense it has a PV triple port.....
watched a kid lap an open curcuit on one was faster than the 450's were (Dylan Walsh though, freak of nature)


It bothers me that you would ditch your current project in favor of the 85 if it were to be legal. I guess it's a matter of opinion but I believe that the maximum performance potential would still be with the 100s not the 85s.

Out of curiosity have you ridden a MX 85 in road trim? It really is an eye opener, and I am honestly not exaggerating. In stock form they are pretty terrible in terms of an "ideal" engine. But they have reasonable power are easy to get and get parts for and in stock form would be incredibly reliable.

.
I have ridden plenty of mx85's (not as a bucket though funny enough) i have also witnessed just how advanced the newer KTM engine is.I have never riden the newer 85 but have seen it, it is a work of art. The major advantage with the newer ones is actually their drivability. The new/old 50 and 65 are night and day in usability i would not expect the 85 to be any different at all.

[Sketchy_Racer]

I am guessing you have not seen the Late KTM85/105 cylinder then, it is basically a production Aprillia none of this bridged port nonsense it has a PV triple port.....
watched a kid lap an open curcuit on one was faster than the 450's were (Dylan Walsh though, freak of nature)


I have ridden plenty of mx85's (not as a bucket though funny enough) i have also witnessed just how advanced the newer KTM engine is.I have never riden the newer 85 but have seen it, it is a work of art. The major advantage with the newer ones is actually their drivability. The new/old 50 and 65 are night and day in usability i would not expect the 85 to be any different at all.

What year did they change the KTM85 motor? I had one as a dirt bike. It was a 2008, not sure if that was the old generation engine or not though?

[kel]

You got a spare? I'll write "NSR80" on the side of it with a Sharpie
I could arrange that, but she's no 80.
50mm x 50.6mm :sunny:. Its all a bit square but I think we'll make do. Just hope the transfers havent been brought so far around as to cause short circuiting, but I guess we'll just raise the exhaust port floor if need be. Completion date for this is mid who knows when, but it wouldn't be shelved if MX85's are allowed in. All the previously listed non comp goodies in the KE bottom end plus state of the art 100cc water cooled top end, its a no brainer to who's going to have the advantage. Just need someone decent to ride it :lol:

[F5 Dave]

I could arrange that, but she's no 80.
50mm x 50.6mm :sunny:. Its all a bit square but I think we'll make do. Just hope the transfers havent been brought so far around as to cause short circuiting, but I guess we'll just raise the exhaust port floor if need be. Completion date for this is mid who knows when, but it wouldn't be shelved if MX85's are allowed in. All the previously listed non comp goodies in the KE bottom end plus state of the art 100cc water cooled top end, its a no brainer to who's going to have the advantage. Just need someone decent to ride it :lol:

Why would I care about claiming the 80cc bit? Can sell it to me in a special marked box that states that it is a road part and provide running in instructions and a 10,000km waranty.

I'll get to work on the artwork. Kelsco Commuter bike Industries. Please observe local vehicle emissions compliance before registering. TuV certificates available (I'll get those posted on Wiki in a moment).

[husaberg]

What year did they change the KTM85 motor? I had one as a dirt bike. It was a 2008, not sure if that was the old generation engine or not though?

I tried to google it but lost interest, the 50 were def 09 the 65's were about the same year my son is not at the 85's yet so never noticed or took much interest. The 85's race on the big tracks seperate from the mini's here anyway.
If you go back a few pages i added some pics of the latest one but when it came in?
But it sure is pretty..........
Page 7.........

[Yow Ling]

I suppose I could print a million or so "Not for Race Use" labels to legitimise any questionable parts
$50 for a roll of 250

297216

[jasonu]

And at the end of the day, If you don't like it don't get one but let the 2T crowd have some new motors!! It's not going to make anyone's bike redundant and the uptake to 85 engines would be minimal but it is an option!

If the uptake is as you say minimal, and I totally agree with that point then who bother to change (and risk) a very successful reciepe just to allow a new bike here and there. It seams to me the proponents of the 85's are looking for a relatively easy in to the class with decient hp, nice gearboxes and low engine weight without really putting in much if any effort.
If there is really enough interest maybe start out with a separate class for the 85's and see what happens from there.

[Drew]

If the uptake is as you say minimal, and I totally agree with that point then who bother to change (and risk) a very successful reciepe just to allow a new bike here and there. It seams to me the proponents of the 85's are looking for a relatively easy in to the class with decient hp, nice gearboxes and low engine weight without really putting in much if any effort.
If there is really enough interest maybe start out with a separate class for the 85's and see what happens from there.That's exactly right. In my case at least.

Buy motor, have Sketchy/Malcolm/anyone else who knows their shit tune it for a bit of a fatter curve, and build a decent handling bike around it. I'd even try and utilise the output shaft/swingarm pivot. Not that a bucket is ever likely to overcome suspension compression.

So there would be less effort in getting a running motor...but more work in setting the bike up right. Give and take, same as nearly anything motorcycle related.

[Sketchy_Racer]

If the uptake is as you say minimal, and I totally agree with that point then who bother to change (and risk) a very successful reciepe just to allow a new bike here and there. It seams to me the proponents of the 85's are looking for a relatively easy in to the class with decient hp, nice gearboxes and low engine weight without really putting in much if any effort.
If there is really enough interest maybe start out with a separate class for the 85's and see what happens from there.

Well that may be just what happens here in welly. Because we don't run MNZ here it comes down to the organisers of the event who can run what. I if a half dozen 85s turned up (which I doubt) they would probably just get crossed classed. At the moment I just start way off the back of any points races to make sure I don't get in the middle of them until at least half way through the race. If some of the fast guys were racing I wouldn't make the ground up on them anyway.

They really aren't going to risk the formula for buckets, well the risk is certainly so minimal. I know Kel is going to submit for a rule change as will I. I really want them in, it's my own agenda i'm pushing of course but I do genuinely believe they will only add to the interest in buckets and in no way be detrimental to the class, again just my own view on the matter.

[Sketchy_Racer]

I suppose I could print a million or so "Not for Race Use" labels to legitimise any questionable parts
$50 for a roll of 250

297216

I could also add to CNC engraving any cylinders and competition engines that people want in ;)

[mr bucketracer]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-538591527.htm
tf motors still built today . newer than fxr motors so guess parts not a promblem

[ken seeber]

OK fellers, I have been reading this interesting thread & lightheated banter from the start and I can see the dilemma. Living in West Oz, I have never even seen a bucket, so am a complete outsider.

How about something else to consider?

Firstly though, what do you want, particularly to allow 2 strokes to continue with the 4 strokes, which seem to have some advantages in terms of cost and easier rideability? To me it might be something like:

1. Maintain the fun factor
2. Allow guys to continue and fiddle/modify motors should they choose, certainly in some specific classes or sub divisions
3. Keep the costs down
4. Provide a platform that offers ready parts and can continue for a useful time into the future.

Here's a thought.

Allow kart engines into the mix. basically this would be mounted on a, say 10 mm aluminium, base plate (to suit the regular kart engine mounting points) that would pass under the engine and pass back towards the swing arm pivot. How this would be connected to the frame would be on a case by case situation. Also on the baseplate would be a simple jack shaft that would be spinning at around 1/3rd engine speed reduction, from there to the back wheel. It would be a fixed ratio installation ie, no gearbox ratio issues . Simple and cheap.

So, you get a huge range of engines to play with, simple centrifugal clutch, ability to start the engine via an elec starter at the accessible crank ends and the exhaust (short) faces rearwards with carb in front (not sure how the exhaust would pass by a twin rear shock rear end though).

Engines could be water cooled 125s (Max, X30, Fireball & SQ). These could be left standard and there are heaps of rule systems in place to use (if the performance it too great, then it would be a simple matter to introduce exhaust restrictor plates as is done in Oz karting). There could also be KT100S, which now are cheap as chups. Maybe these, as nominally aircooled, piston port 100cc engines, have a ready supply of pistons, rings, rods bearings etc. Given the technical disadvantage compared to the 125s, suggest that these could be the fiddlers class, stuff all rules and maybe allow up to 110 cc or so, using up to 55 mm pistons.

That's my input and feel free to tell me to piss off, as I am just a total outsider.

Long live the 2 stroke !!

Thanks

Ken

[F5 Dave]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-538591527.htm
tf motors still built today . newer than fxr motors so guess parts not a promblem

Oh well problem solved. 4 grand, Bolt up & 10 or so HP is there for the use with stella reliability. <_< Hold me back.

[F5 Dave]

Well that may be just what happens here in welly. Because we don't run MNZ here it comes down to the organisers of the event who can run what. I if a half dozen 85s turned up (which I doubt) they would probably just get crossed classed. At the moment I just start way off the back of any points races to make sure I don't get in the middle of them until at least half way through the race. If some of the fast guys were racing I wouldn't make the ground up on them anyway.

They really aren't going to risk the formula for buckets, well the risk is certainly so minimal. I know Kel is going to submit for a rule change as will I. I really want them in, it's my own agenda i'm pushing of course but I do genuinely believe they will only add to the interest in buckets and in no way be detrimental to the class, again just my own view on the matter.

Some of this discussion is far too well mannered. I'm going to insult your mothers year 4 school teacher just to spice things up a little:Pokey:

[F5 Dave]

I could also add to CNC engraving any cylinders and competition engines that people want in ;)

And yet you missed a trick on your own bike.

[mr bucketracer]

Oh well problem solved. 4 grand, Bolt up & 10 or so HP is there for the use with stella reliability. <_< Hold me back.skunk said you can get these engine for $40 . last one a did up was around 300 dollar 2 years ago

[husaberg]

Gearbox ratios


87cr CR(ac) MB5 MB100
1st 2.33 2.50 3.17 3.083
2nd 1.72 1.77 2.06 1.882
3rd 1.40 1.40 1.50 1.400
4th 1.17 1.13 1.17 1.130
5th 1.00 .96 1.00 0.960
6th .88 .81 0.88

[Sketchy_Racer]

OK fellers, I have been reading this interesting thread & lightheated banter from the start and I can see the dilemma. Living in West Oz, I have never even seen a bucket, so am a complete outsider.

How about something else to consider?

Firstly though, what do you want, particularly to allow 2 strokes to continue with the 4 strokes, which seem to have some advantages in terms of cost and easier rideability? To me it might be something like:

1. Maintain the fun factor
2. Allow guys to continue and fiddle/modify motors should they choose, certainly in some specific classes or sub divisions
3. Keep the costs down
4. Provide a platform that offers ready parts and can continue for a useful time into the future.

Here's a thought.

Allow kart engines into the mix. basically this would be mounted on a, say 10 mm aluminium, base plate (to suit the regular kart engine mounting points) that would pass under the engine and pass back towards the swing arm pivot. How this would be connected to the frame would be on a case by case situation. Also on the baseplate would be a simple jack shaft that would be spinning at around 1/3rd engine speed reduction, from there to the back wheel. It would be a fixed ratio installation ie, no gearbox ratio issues . Simple and cheap.

So, you get a huge range of engines to play with, simple centrifugal clutch, ability to start the engine via an elec starter at the accessible crank ends and the exhaust (short) faces rearwards with carb in front (not sure how the exhaust would pass by a twin rear shock rear end though).

Engines could be water cooled 125s (Max, X30, Fireball & SQ). These could be left standard and there are heaps of rule systems in place to use (if the performance it too great, then it would be a simple matter to introduce exhaust restrictor plates as is done in Oz karting). There could also be KT100S, which now are cheap as chups. Maybe these, as nominally aircooled, piston port 100cc engines, have a ready supply of pistons, rings, rods bearings etc. Given the technical disadvantage compared to the 125s, suggest that these could be the fiddlers class, stuff all rules and maybe allow up to 110 cc or so, using up to 55 mm pistons.

That's my input and feel free to tell me to piss off, as I am just a total outsider.

Long live the 2 stroke !!

Thanks

Ken

I've got to say you summed it up in your 4 bullet points, But I am not going to lie, a single speed auto 2T would have to be the most boring bike in the world to race. The fun and excitment of 2Ts are the feeling of thrashing the tits off them to get good drive and banging them through the 'box.

A twist and go would be a no go ;)

[Grumph]

Well all the talk of a remit is too late for this year anyway.

may i suggest sending the one running 85 around the country for the next 6 -8 months to let people have a look at it and decide for themselves. Send it down for BoB too - if you can't come we'll find a good pedaller...

All very well to talk forever but if you want change you've got to show some benefit - and prove it won't obsolete existing bikes.

[F5 Dave]

Gearbox ratios


87cr CR(ac) MB5 MB100
1st 2.33 2.50 3.17 3.083
2nd 1.72 1.77 2.06 1.882
3rd 1.40 1.40 1.50 1.400
4th 1.17 1.13 1.17 1.130
5th 1.00 .96 1.00 0.960
6th .88 .81 0.88


Do I read that as 3rd is close & 4-6th where it matters are the same? Cool, as I suspected.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Well all the talk of a remit is too late for this year anyway.

may i suggest sending the one running 85 around the country for the next 6 -8 months to let people have a look at it and decide for themselves. Send it down for BoB too - if you can't come we'll find a good pedaller...

All very well to talk forever but if you want change you've got to show some benefit - and prove it won't obsolete existing bikes.

Well i'm certainly hoping to get around on it but I would be more than happy to send it down to BoB for someone to have a skid on. I want to try come down myself but I'll have to wait and see. (New job means I might be overseas for periods of time)

I'm planning on buying an ignitech soon for the supercharger project, I'm also curious to see how the 85 would react to some ignition and possibly better carb and intake setup. Unfortunatly I am the wrong person at trying to tune this thing to the limit (nor is it my interest with the 85) but it would be nice to see how well these things react to some good engine work.

[Sketchy_Racer]

And yet you missed a trick on your own bike.

Did you not see the crafty hand writing on the cylinder??

[husaberg]

Do I read that as 3rd is close & 4-6th where it matters are the same? Cool, as I suspected.

i tried a table but got lost sorry
In my experience on the medium tracks with the correct gearing the MB5 box was effectively a five speeder.first was either unusable or 6 was too high
On kart tracks getting to the first corner ahead is an advantage. So the closer bottom 3 ratios is an advantage
On tight kart tracks it was no real issue with the gearing per-say,other tha the starts. I never ran it on Ruapuna but strongly suspect the cr box would have been a rather large advantage their.

[Skunk]

skunk said you can get these engine for $40 . last one a did up was around 300 dollar 2 years ago

Yep, I got several basket case TF125s for around that price.
Good points:
About $200 to rebuild if the barrel only needed a hone, including piston, rings and little end.
Bad points:
No porting and no power (9hp factory claim) for that price. Crank costs bigger money.

They are cheap and available but they are not bolt in competitive.


If it ain't smokin' - it's broken.

[quallman1234]

Yep, I got several basket case TF125s for around that price.
Good points:
About $200 to rebuild if the barrel only needed a hone, including piston, rings and little end.
Bad points:
No porting and no power (9hp factory claim) for that price. Crank costs bigger money.

They are cheap and available but they are not bolt in competitive.


If it ain't smokin' - it's broken.

~300$, for everything would be about what you will get one for. Thats how much i paid for one i brought a couple of years back.
They definitely are quite a underperforming engine standard. Not close to a stock fxr!

[aircooled]

std 05 & 06 cr85 engine's with pipe, 20.5hp

std 2010 yz85 engine, pipe, 21.3hp, had a v/force reed block.

cr85's were in nf4/nx4 frames, yz is in a tz frame. easy to ride with power from 8500--12000rpm

24hp with std ignition, 28mm carb,squished head, porting & pipe. power from 9000--13000.

reliable & cheap to run, pretty fast around a kart track & great on the big tracks.

[F5 Dave]

On your local dyno? What type? Thanks

[Drew]

If those numbers are anywhere near accurate, it's a pretty good indicator that the MX85 route should be a popular one. If they are admitted to the class.

Reckon I'll just get one and hope.

[mr bucketracer]

~300$, for everything would be about what you will get one for. Thats how much i paid for one i brought a couple of years back.
They definitely are quite a underperforming engine standard. Not close to a stock fxr!if the botton ends fine in 4 hours i can make them have 20hp, the one i made at 17-19 only had 18hp on a dyno jet but 1 hour on it they had over 21hp and that was a 100 , never done a 125 but easy with 125 mx chambers now days .. hard to make a chamber work on a 100 in the day

[RMS eng]

If those numbers are anywhere near accurate, it's a pretty good indicator that the MX85 route should be a popular one. If they are admitted to the class.

Reckon I'll just get one and hope.

shit if they let in 85 mx motors thet have to let in the Honda CRF150R motor,then i can sell Jasons CBR150 motor as the CRF is lighter and a lot less work to fit in the RS125 frame,

[scott411]

shit if they let in 85 mx motors thet have to let in the Honda CRF150R motor,then i can sell Jasons CBR150 motor as the CRF is lighter and a lot less work to fit in the RS125 frame,

Why? they are not cheap and abundant like MX85's are?

[Sketchy_Racer]

shit if they let in 85 mx motors thet have to let in the Honda CRF150R motor,then i can sell Jasons CBR150 motor as the CRF is lighter and a lot less work to fit in the RS125 frame,

4 strokes are currently already well catered for with a large amount of performance options. That is why 90% of bucket grids are 4Ts now :)

[Mental Trousers]

4 strokes are currently already well catered for with a large amount of performance options. That is why 90% of bucket grids are 4Ts now :)

... and that's why an option for 2T's is needed. Redressing that imbalance should be one of, if not THE, main goal.

[RMS eng]

4 strokes are currently already well catered for with a large amount of performance options. That is why 90% of bucket grids are 4Ts now :)

there are lots of TS KE GP motor around people just have to look,no 85 mx motor for sale on trade me lots of bikes at around 2K i think if you paid much less than that they will be junk like most old 85 mx motors,they all ways blow up just like the late model KTM 85 s.looked on ebay there are over 12 CRF150R motor for $1000.00 to $1400.00 same as a 85 ,how much is it to get 22 hp from a FXR150.

[Sketchy_Racer]

there are lots of TS KE GP motor around people just have to look,no 85 mx motor for sale on trade me lots of bikes at around 2K i think if you paid much less than that they will be junk like most old 85 mx motors,they all ways blow up just like the late model KTM 85 s.looked on ebay there are over 12 CRF150R motor for $1000.00 to $1400.00 same as a 85 ,how much is it to get 22 hp from a FXR150.

There's also a lot of DR125s, GN125s, XL125s and GL145 motors around too, so maybe we should ban the FXRs and CBRs as clearly they are too expensive and not needed and there are plenty of other motors.

Sorry for being cynical but that is along the lines of suggesting a TF and GP motors. KE motors are rare as rocking horse...

Apparently it can't be hard to get "22HP" from an FXR as there are a large amount of guys with motors at that level floating around.

This discussion is not about the 150 MX engines, it's about the 85 2Ts and the primary objective of them is to get more 2Ts back in the feild.

[F5 Dave]

shit if they let in 85 mx motors thet have to let in the Honda CRF150R motor,then i can sell Jasons CBR150 motor as the CRF is lighter and a lot less work to fit in the RS125 frame,

That logic does not follow.

I understand that nationally they've separated 85s & 150s in the US due to the performance disparity.

[richban]

That logic does not follow.

I understand that nationally they've separated 85s & 150s in the US due to the performance disparity.



Yeah 4 strokes are better. No one on this site could tune an 85 to make the same power. :innocent:

[quallman1234]

if the botton ends fine in 4 hours i can make them have 20hp, the one i made at 17-19 only had 18hp on a dyno jet but 1 hour on it they had over 21hp and that was a 100 , never done a 125 but easy with 125 mx chambers now days .. hard to make a chamber work on a 100 in the day

Yeah but not everyone is you. Or can send it to you. Some people just want a modern reliable 2 stroke engine they can easily get parts for, to bolt in which has reasonable power in comparison to a stock fxr.

How i have experienced it thus far, is that a stock FXR150 with a carb and a pipe/pipe mod. Is as fast as a stock RM85, however the RM85 is a ton harder to ride.
The 85 still has better peak power. But the power under the curve is greater on the FXR. It ends up very similar.

[RMS eng]

That logic does not follow.

I understand that nationally they've separated 85s & 150s in the US due to the performance disparity.

who gives a .what they do i the US,i think they all race in the same class here,the 250s in the MX champs do.if you open the door for any MX motors look out.Dave do you have a stock pile of 85 motors, your looking to make a killing on.

[mr bucketracer]

Yeah but not everyone is you. Or can send it to you. Some people just want a modern reliable 2 stroke engine they can easily get parts for, to bolt in which has reasonable power in comparison to a stock fxr.

How i have experienced it thus far, is that a stock FXR150 with a carb and a pipe/pipe mod. Is as fast as a stock RM85, however the RM85 is a ton harder to ride.
The 85 still has better peak power. But the power under the curve is greater on the FXR. It ends up very similar.everything i did with a stock fxr playing with the pipe went slower .. i just think for the sake of 2-3 people taking up this . its breaking a rule that has been in place for 35years .. for little work you can make whats out there go good with little cost ! you stuffed up more barrels years ago when you had no idea what you where doing , now days people share all info to get it right or pritty good the first time

[kel]

Yeah 4 strokes are better. No one on this site could tune an 85 to make the same power. :innocent:

:Oi: Your final post was several pages back :lol:

Let the CRF's in as well I say.

[richban]

:Oi: Your final post was several pages back :lol:

Let the CRF's in as well I say.

Can't help myself. Fun to whined up the cry babies.

[mr bucketracer]

:Oi: Your final post was several pages back :lol:

Let the CRF's in as well I say.that was me (-; can't bite my tongue

[Skunk]

Can't help myself. Fun to whined up the cry babies.

Fuck you - leave me alone...


If it ain't smokin' - it's broken.

[steamroller]

Well i'm certainly hoping to get around on it but I would be more than happy to send it down to BoB for someone to have a skid on. I want to try come down myself but I'll have to wait and see. (New job means I might be overseas for periods of time)

I'm planning on buying an ignitech soon for the supercharger project, I'm also curious to see how the 85 would react to some ignition and possibly better carb and intake setup. Unfortunatly I am the wrong person at trying to tune this thing to the limit (nor is it my interest with the 85) but it would be nice to see how well these things react to some good engine work.

Look at the bike that has one the last gp thats got work done to it and it wins hands down . I would say your bike would be along the same line as it.

[Bert]

Look at the bike that has won the last gp; thats got work done to it and it wins hands down . I would say your bike would be along the same line as it.

Not far off given they do use the bottom ends for MX engines (Europe).

But its not just the engine that won the GP. you have to give credit where credit is due... the rider & the package did a lot; the engine just had to stay together....:msn-wink:

I'm tied of this now...
I'm going to get my TZR100 sorted and give it to Tyler....

[Sketchy_Racer]

Look at the bike that has one the last gp thats got work done to it and it wins hands down . I would say your bike would be along the same line as it.

Yeah I would say that has less to do with the motor and more to do with the pilot and also the chassis. To win you need the package and clearly they have it with the 80 in the RS chassis with a good rider.

Put him on one of the hot FXRs in a good chassis and he'd probably wax everyone on that as well.

[F5 Dave]

Look at the bike that has one the last gp thats got work done to it and it wins hands down . I would say your bike would be along the same line as it.

I've ridden Sketchys cheater bike & lets be clear. It ain't quick. I know what 18hp feels like. I know what 20hp feels like, I know what 22 HP feels like, 23, 24, 25, 26 & 27, all in pretty peaky packages. Sketchy's bike would have trouble drag racing my old 17-18hp H100. In fact I'd beat him. Or maybe when we put it on the dynojet we can do an all gears comparrison with an old run & find out. It was like 80kg. We can't do a real test as the engine is in Sketchys garage & the rest left to rot somewhere.

The amusing thing is Nathanial riding his dads bike won the GP with circa 24hp. He said it was considerably more peaky than his bike & he kinda preferred his. As if to prove a point he then used his bike to recently break the Auckland track record with not much more than 20hp but a better spread.

At least that is my understanding from talking to him & his dad.

I think we'd all prefer to hear that the bike(s?) is a monster 30hp weapon stuffed full of illegal race parts. but it isn't the case. We'll have to suck it up & hope he discovers gurls & slows down a notch or two.

[F5 Dave]

Yeah 4 strokes are better. No one on this site could tune an 85 to make the same power. :innocent:

With the same spread, yeah I'd agree.

[F5 Dave]

who gives a .what they do i the US,i think they all race in the same class here,the 250s in the MX champs do.if you open the door for any MX motors look out.Dave do you have a stock pile of 85 motors, your looking to make a killing on.

Yes & they put 990s in the 500GP class & obsoleted the 500s pretty quickly.



Dave's Midnight Motors & MX85 emporium, step right up. If we don't have stock of what you want we can usually source it overnight:whistle:

[Yow Ling]

Yeah 4 strokes are better. No one on this site could tune an 85 to make the same power. :innocent:

Jan Thiel is a member on this site, he managed ok with the Aprilia RSA and RSW as well as a bunch of world titles on 50cc Jamathi's

[husaberg]

Jan Thiel is a member on this site, he managed ok with the Aprilia RSA and RSW as well as a bunch of world titles on 50cc Jamathi's

he won a few with Bultaco as well i think..............

[CM2005]

Let me know when this gets to MNZ so i can join a club and vote FOR it.

Some alzheimers patients repeatedly posting in this thread bandying about with the word "Competition".. Just cause it says it on the box, doesn't really mean much. If you're so sad about it, have Falicon build you a special commuter crank for your FXR and have a Ti rod and gudgeon pin made.

This is more retarded and has taken more deliberation than introducing Moto2 or CRT... Or dare i say it Post Classics:Pokey:

Any fule know that the "DERBI" engines, while legal, are super competitive, however i can't see a stock 85 MX bike being superfast. Do you guys understand the term "Under the curve"?? Compare NZV8 (not supercar/tourer the old ones) to Honda Cup or SS2000.. Big torque and cubes vs big rpm and peaky delivery, yet ballpark lap times

I'll repeat myself from earlier (seems to be the done thing on KB)
Standard engines
Standard Carb
Could use one of the Go Kart airboxes http://www.sgkarts.com/uploads/parts/full/air-box-prd-006.jpg as a "restriction" - probably wont hinder it much
Pipe size as factory or Dia. as stated earlier
Standard Ignition

and see how it goes.

OR we could argue about it for another 5 years.

[Yow Ling]

So its ok to get a gear set cut at the local gear guy with whatever ratios you like, just costs a bit, but its not OK to have an engine built in a factory as a mxer with the same close ratios. Its ok to buy a close ratio gearbox from Akunar for your fxr because its a commuter engine, but not ok to buy a crf150 with similar gear ratios. Is the no competition parts rule just a bit past its best before date, its a bit like cannibis law its illegal but doesnt stop anyone

Has anyone bought the Akunar or similar gear sets? thats open enough to say so, it not illegal

[Pumba]

....OR we could argue about it for another 5 years.

If we dont the internet might die

[Kickaha]

There's also a lot of DR125s, GN125s, XL125s and GL145 motors around too, so maybe we should ban the FXRs and CBRs as clearly they are too expensive and not needed and there are plenty of other motors.
That's a fucking brilliant idea, the GN is obviously so awesome I cant see why anyone would want anything else

[F5 Dave]

who gives a .what they do i the US,i think they all race in the same class here,the 250s in the MX champs do.. ..
Someone pointed out I might have misunderstood this bit. Are you saying the 250 2s and 250 4s race in same class? If that's your point then how does this back up the original point?

[Sketchy_Racer]

So its ok to get a gear set cut at the local gear guy with whatever ratios you like, just costs a bit, but its not OK to have an engine built in a factory as a mxer with the same close ratios. Its ok to buy a close ratio gearbox from Akunar for your fxr because its a commuter engine, but not ok to buy a crf150 with similar gear ratios. Is the no competition parts rule just a bit past its best before date, its a bit like cannibis law its illegal but doesnt stop anyone

Has anyone bought the Akunar or similar gear sets? thats open enough to say so, it not illegal

This is probably the most logical post in relation to bucket rules I have seen in some time and I agree whole heartedly.

[richban]

Has anyone bought the Akunar or similar gear sets? thats open enough to say so, it not illegal

2 Expensive.

[steamroller]

Yeah I would say that has less to do with the motor and more to do with the pilot and also the chassis. To win you need the package and clearly they have it with the 80 in the RS chassis with a good rider.

Put him on one of the hot FXRs in a good chassis and he'd probably wax everyone on that as well.

Ok so 24 hp and a bike that is 64 kg dose not play much of a part in it. my bike is 84kg and 25 hp

[kel]

have Falicon build you a special commuter crank for your FXR and have a Ti rod and gudgeon pin made.
There's one of those kicking around up here in the "there's no budget cap, where's my works rider" side of the camp, don't know about the Ti con rod but the words titanium nitride ring a bell.
Just bought some Ti parts for the daughters bike, far too expensive for the bucket though.

[kel]

Ok so 24 hp and a bike that is 64 kg dose not play much of a part in it. my bike is 84kg and 25 hp
If the GP had of run for another 2 laps an FXR would have won!
What hp is Scotts bike putting out? Last graph I saw it was out performing my 2 stroke.

[steamroller]

Ok so 24 hp and a bike that is 64 kg dose not play much of a part in it. my bike is 84kg and 25 hp

And to think there has 100 kg man on 25 hp bike with arthritis in 2place not much in lap times so yeah none of us can ride

[mr bucketracer]

I've ridden Sketchys cheater bike & lets be clear. It ain't quick. I know what 18hp feels like. I know what 20hp feels like, I know what 22 HP feels like, 23, 24, 25, 26 & 27, all in pretty peaky packages. Sketchy's bike would have trouble drag racing my old 17-18hp H100. In fact I'd beat him. Or maybe when we put it on the dynojet we can do an all gears comparrison with an old run & find out. It was like 80kg. We can't do a real test as the engine is in Sketchys garage & the rest left to rot somewhere.

The amusing thing is Nathanial riding his dads bike won the GP with circa 24hp. He said it was considerably more peaky than his bike & he kinda preferred his. As if to prove a point he then used his bike to recently break the Auckland track record with not much more than 20hp but a better spread.

At least that is my understanding from talking to him & his dad.

I think we'd all prefer to hear that the bike(s?) is a monster 30hp weapon stuffed full of illegal race parts. but it isn't the case. We'll have to suck it up & hope he discovers gurls & slows down a notch or two.so why in one hand say , the 85 is to get people out there racing without doing any work becuase there not to bad out the box ! and can't port or do anything and the other hand saying ( i want to see what i can get out of them having the only rule been 85 ? ...i don't get it

[steamroller]

If the GP had of run for another 2 laps an FXR would have won!
What hp is Scotts bike putting out? Last graph I saw it was out performing my 2 stroke.

It was 26 be for the gp after it was 23.5

[mr bucketracer]

And to think there has 100 kg man on 25 hp bike with arthritis in 2place not much in lap times so yeah none of us can ridei must be superman lol , new rule 85cc has to be my weight 194kgs dry ( bike and rider ) i will go along with that rule . do what you want to the engine

[steamroller]

i must be superman lol , new rule 85cc has to be my weight 194kgs dry ( bike and rider ) i will go along with that rule . do what you want to the engine

If i could find overs sea's that a cr125 dirt bike was all so a road bike could i air cool it and race that. or is it only what we can get in zew zealand ?

[steamroller]

I've ridden Sketchys cheater bike & lets be clear. It ain't quick. I know what 18hp feels like. I know what 20hp feels like, I know what 22 HP feels like, 23, 24, 25, 26 & 27, all in pretty peaky packages. Sketchy's bike would have trouble drag racing my old 17-18hp H100. In fact I'd beat him. Or maybe when we put it on the dynojet we can do an all gears comparrison with an old run & find out. It was like 80kg. We can't do a real test as the engine is in Sketchys garage & the rest left to rot somewhere.

The amusing thing is Nathanial riding his dads bike won the GP with circa 24hp. He said it was considerably more peaky than his bike & he kinda preferred his. As if to prove a point he then used his bike to recently break the Auckland track record with not much more than 20hp but a better spread.

At least that is my understanding from talking to him & his dad.

I think we'd all prefer to hear that the bike(s?) is a monster 30hp weapon stuffed full of illegal race parts. but it isn't the case. We'll have to suck it up & hope he discovers gurls & slows down a notch or two.

when im next down il give you a bike to ride and you let me know how much hp it is seeing your a walking dyno

[Yow Ling]

Does anyone know how easy it is to port a plated barrell ? Nicasil is as hard as all hell, you can remove it but then you need a replate about 500 bux.
The barrells I have seen have the plating going a few mm into the ports, so if you just do a rough bit of a grind and dont replate does it peel off?
Would this limit peoples enthusiasim for the 85's.
If you go down the sleeve a 125 back to 100 thats about a grand if you pay a man to do it.

You really do have to be in love with ring dings to go down this track, but good things are seldom cheap and cheap things are seldom good

[mr bucketracer]

Does anyone know how easy it is to port a plated barrell ? Nicasil is as hard as all hell, you can remove it but then you need a replate about 500 bux.
The barrells I have seen have the plating going a few mm into the ports, so if you just do a rough bit of a grind and dont replate does it peel off?
Would this limit peoples enthusiasim for the 85's.
If you go down the sleeve a 125 back to 100 thats about a grand if you pay a man to do it.

You really do have to be in love with ring dings to go down this track, but good things are seldom cheap and cheap things are seldom goodon the rgv's the plating does peel after porting .last one i got plated was 250 dollars but that was 10 years ago

[Sketchy_Racer]

so why in one hand say , the 85 is to get people out there racing without doing any work becuase there not to bad out the box ! and can't port or do anything and the other hand saying ( i want to see what i can get out of them having the only rule been 85 ? ...i don't get it

What's not to get?

2Ts are dwindling in buckets because the current crop are old and rubbish and the 4Ts have an obvious advantage, this is just another suitable 2T engine option.

Apart from arguing that there are other engine options out there (which there are), what have you got against them? After all this discussion I just really don't understand the opposition. This matter has nothing to with riders and who wins what on what, it has to do with motors and the lack of 2Ts and that the rules have leaned heavily in favor of 4Ts for quite a few years now.

And before the "its been like this for 35 years" get thrown out there again, remember that the beloved FXR150 was illegal not so long ago and they sure had their fair share of opposition when they first turned up.

Also notice how the discussions are all based around mid 25HP levels as what is needed now to have a competitive bike? 5 years ago anything over 20HP was a rocketship. Times have changed.

[mr bucketracer]

A would rather see a thread on how to get more people to the north island rounds because it is so dam good (take my hat of to runs them )A+ but let down by alot of riders not turning up

[mr bucketracer]

What's not to get?

2Ts are dwindling in buckets because the current crop are old and rubbish and the 4Ts have an obvious advantage, this is just another suitable 2T engine option.

Apart from arguing that there are other engine options out there (which there are), what have you got against them? After all this discussion I just really don't understand the opposition. This matter has nothing to with riders and who wins what on what, it has to do with motors and the lack of 2Ts and that the rules have leaned heavily in favor of 4Ts for quite a few years now.

And before the "its been like this for 35 years" get thrown out there again, remember that the beloved FXR150 was illegal not so long ago and they sure had their fair share of opposition when they first turned up.

Also notice how the discussions are all based around mid 25HP levels as what is needed now to have a competitive bike? 5 years ago anything over 20HP was a rocketship. Times have changed.we are building 2x 2 strokes . we dont need the rules changed for us? Also the air cooled 125 was illegal and that type of engine is the fastist on the track

[steamroller]

What's not to get?

2Ts are dwindling in buckets because the current crop are old and rubbish and the 4Ts have an obvious advantage, this is just another suitable 2T engine option.

Apart from arguing that there are other engine options out there (which there are), what have you got against them? After all this discussion I just really don't understand the opposition. This matter has nothing to with riders and who wins what on what, it has to do with motors and the lack of 2Ts and that the rules have leaned heavily in favor of 4Ts for quite a few years now.

And before the "its been like this for 35 years" get thrown out there again, remember that the beloved FXR150 was illegal not so long ago and they sure had their fair share of opposition when they first turned up.

Also notice how the discussions are all based around mid 25HP levels as what is needed now to have a competitive bike? 5 years ago anything over 20HP was a rocketship. Times have changed.

for my self i dont think competition motors should ever be in 4ts or 2ts as for we got fxr 150 rember 125 air could all so come in so its not all one way im even got the bro's buliding a 125 for me . i like both 2 and 4

[Skunk]

OK, water cooled 125cc with open carbs.


If it ain't smokin' - it's broken.

[steamroller]

A would rather see a thread on how to get more people to the north island rounds because it is so dam good (take my hat of to runs them )A+ but let down by alot of riders not turning up

well get 85 out there and there is going to be that meany little johnnies raceing its not going to be funny:tugger::tugger:

[steamroller]

OK, water cooled 125cc with open carbs.


If it ain't smokin' - it's broken.

i am happy as with that

[mr bucketracer]

OK, water cooled 125cc with open carbs.


If it ain't smokin' - it's broken.cool i have a rs125 i could pinch :eek: can we run nitro with that :drool:

[mr bucketracer]

to much for me lol. just do what you want :( never mined i can go back to flying RC planes again:banana:

[Skunk]

Buckets has a wide range of skills in its participants. Some can build, some can ride, some can do both. And others can do neither.
Don't structure the rules around one class of participant. Give as any options as possible and the numbers will grow.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[F5 Dave]

Ok so 24 hp and a bike that is 64 kg dose not play much of a part in it. my bike is 84kg and 25 hp
And what about the spread of power? Oh sorry broken record, but no one's listening.

[husaberg]

And what about the spread of power? Oh sorry broken record, but no one's listening.

I'm listening, but at 24hp with proper tuning the power spread, well it should be the same if not better as mikes 30hp MB100, Why wouldn't it be different.
If we actually look at your bike Dave, you have basically replicated what a MX85 design is, with hard work....

[steamroller]

And what about the spread of power? Oh sorry broken record, but no one's listening.

what about it. ever one look at the last gp start my bike is not bad off the line for starts and nathaniels bike got off the line just as fast so his spread of power must be bad to pick up as fast as a 4t:clap:

[mr bucketracer]

look a the first lap of the gp on my onboard . up the hill part of the track i'm down in the revs the rest i'm riding like a 2 stroke anyway so don't know what the diffients is? ( both 100 and 85 just pull away easy ) have a look

[F5 Dave]

If I was 60kg my starts would be better too.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Are you really comparing a fxr150 power curve to a 85? What a bloody joke!

Seriously offer some reasoned input to this discussion not just "I got beat by a kid on an 80 so they are clearly too fast"

Next we're going to have people saying they will quit buckets if 85s come in, like a disgruntled 12yo.

As Mike put it earlier the non competition rule is out dated and redundant.

[Drew]

Let's have a look from a different angle.

Back in the day, there was an enormous gap between race engines and road bikes. At the most basic level, like water cooling and shit. It was not cost effective to share very much of the technology between the disciplines. These days it is, and commuter bikes share the same basic designs. FXR is a four valve head, RG150 is a great start point for making a stupidly fast 150.

Alas, there aren't road bikes made of the 2 stroke variety that fit bucket cc limitations. So since there's no difference in potential IF there were road bikes, why not open an avenue that replicates a progression that would have happened if the tree huggers didn't change the course?

[cotswold]

look a the first lap of the gp on my onboard . up the hill part of the track i'm down in the revs the rest i'm riding like a 2 stroke anyway so don't know what the diffients is? ( both 100 and 85 just pull away easy ) have a look

Um and your bike and rider combined weight is............?
Nats combined would be no more than 130kg (if that)

Power to weight ratio, there is a very good reason (most) of the top small bike riders are tiny.

[Grumph]

Let's have a look from a different angle.

Back in the day, there was an enormous gap between race engines and road bikes. At the most basic level, like water cooling and shit. It was not cost effective to share very much of the technology between the disciplines. These days it is, and commuter bikes share the same basic designs. FXR is a four valve head, RG150 is a great start point for making a stupidly fast 150.

Alas, there aren't road bikes made of the 2 stroke variety that fit bucket cc limitations. So since there's no difference in potential IF there were road bikes, why not open an avenue that replicates a progression that would have happened if the tree huggers didn't change the course?

The boy makes a good point.......two stroke development for the road was stopped dead by the greenies while fourstrokes carried on with technology transfers from the GP wars.

[jasonu]

OK, water cooled 125cc with open carbs.


If it ain't smokin' - it's broken.

Then some might want 150 air cooled 2T with 28 carb. Others might want 175cc 4t. The 85cc MX crowd might want over bore to 100cc. Where would it end?
There is nout all wrong with the rules as is.

[seymour14]

Then some might want 150 air cooled 2T with 28 carb. Others might want 175cc 4t. The 85cc MX crowd might want over bore to 100cc. Where would it end?
There is nout all wrong with the rules as is.

That would be my point too, and once Pandora's box is opened, there will be no shutting it again. To me that is a 30+ year old founding rule flushed down the toilet.

We are bringing a new, legal two stroke to the competition hopefully sometime next year, something a little different. To say there is little choice is not right at all, and in fact, our team sees the big advantage two strokes have over the four, or we wouldn't be trying this.

[Drew]

The boy makes...???

36 today actually y'old bugger!

[Drew]

That would be my point too, and once Pandora's box is opened, there will be no shutting it again. To me that is a 30+ year old founding rule flushed down the toilet.

We are bringing a new, legal two stroke to the competition hopefully sometime next year, something a little different. To say there is little choice is not right at all, and in fact, our team sees the big advantage two strokes have over the four, or we wouldn't be trying this.

Bollocks!

That would be why there needs to be some rules submitted for change/addition. To allow some things, and not others.

[Yow Ling]

There is nout all wrong with the rules as is.

Yes there is. What is a competition part and where is the crossover between a performance part and a competition part.
Is a prototype part a competition part ? Is an exact copy of a competition part a competition part or a one off.

You can 3D print a sandcore for a barrel with any porting you like , but if it isn't made by a recognised competition bike maker is it a competition part.

You can build an exact copy of any engine and its legal !

[seymour14]

Yes there is. What is a competition part and where is the crossover between a performance part and a competition part.
Is a prototype part a competition part ? Is an exact copy of a competition part a competition part or a one off.

You can 3D print a sandcore for a barrel with any prorting you like , but if it isn't made by a recognised competition bike maker is it a competition part.

You can build an exact copy of any engine and its legal !

And who honestly can afford that? The reason we build stuff is because it is cheaper for us to build then to buy, our time is what is lost. if someone can make an exact copy of a competition part, then good for them, if it blows up, they are back to doing it again. They may stumble on something even better in the way of a design, that's exciting.

Buying stuff off the shelf is everything that is wrong with engineering these days, our kids are brimming with knowledge, but not a lick of practical engineering common sense.

And that is something buckets still has at the moment, the chance to do something different. If their is a cheap alternative, who will honestly put in huge hours just to come out even with an off the shelf answer.

[Sketchy_Racer]

And who honestly can afford that? The reason we build stuff is because it is cheaper for us to build then to buy, our time is what is lost. if someone can make an exact copy of a competition part, then good for them, if it blows up, they are back to doing it again. They may stumble on something even better in the way of a design, that's exciting.

Buying stuff off the shelf is everything that is wrong with engineering these days, our kids are brimming with knowledge, but not a lick of practical engineering common sense.

And that is something buckets still has at the moment, the chance to do something different. If their is a cheap alternative, who will honestly put in huge hours just to come out even with an off the shelf answer.

I can't help but feel that you are only looking from your perspective here. Sure it is "cheaper" and "easier" for you guys to build your motors, but look at the equipment that you have at your disposal... Put a price tag on that and tell average joe punter that is how you must build a motor. Not everyone is an engineer or wants to be an engineer and fair enough, some people just want a bike to go race.

and to be honest I can't help but laugh a little at the preaching of "built not bought" yet your own team offers a service for people to literally buy HP???

The rule changes being considered here will have no effect on your ability or freedom to make what ever you feel it will just offer those who like two strokes to start at an even playing field without having to go read 900 pages of ESE to learn how to tune a 2T.

Again non of the points you have put up are actual reasons against having the MX85s allowed apart from the "It's been this way for 30 years" (which it hasn't since FXR150s and the CC rule opened up for 4Ts)
Personally I hate this attitude with a pure passion, it is the attitude that drove buckets into the ground last time and it will do it again.

Innovate or Die

[Mental Trousers]

Let's have a look from a different angle.

Back in the day, there was an enormous gap between race engines and road bikes. At the most basic level, like water cooling and shit. It was not cost effective to share very much of the technology between the disciplines. These days it is, and commuter bikes share the same basic designs. FXR is a four valve head, RG150 is a great start point for making a stupidly fast 150.

Alas, there aren't road bikes made of the 2 stroke variety that fit bucket cc limitations. So since there's no difference in potential IF there were road bikes, why not open an avenue that replicates a progression that would have happened if the tree huggers didn't change the course?

The boy makes a good point.......two stroke development for the road was stopped dead by the greenies while fourstrokes carried on with technology transfers from the GP wars.

Yup .

[mr bucketracer]

Are you really comparing a fxr150 power curve to a 85? What a bloody joke!

Seriously offer some reasoned input to this discussion not just "I got beat by a kid on an 80 so they are clearly too fast"

Next we're going to have people saying they will quit buckets if 85s come in, like a disgruntled 12yo.

As Mike put it earlier the non competition rule is out dated and redundant.you guys said about power curve's , to me it means nothin , just ride the dam thing , so you have been taking to brent have you

[mr bucketracer]

I can't help but feel that you are only looking from your perspective here. Sure it is "cheaper" and "easier" for you guys to build your motors, but look at the equipment that you have at your disposal... Put a price tag on that and tell average joe punter that is how you must build a motor. Not everyone is an engineer or wants to be an engineer and fair enough, some people just want a bike to go race.

and to be honest I can't help but laugh a little at the preaching of "built not bought" yet your own team offers a service for people to literally buy HP???

The rule changes being considered here will have no effect on your ability or freedom to make what ever you feel it will just offer those who like two strokes to start at an even playing field without having to go read 900 pages of ESE to learn how to tune a 2T.

Again non of the points you have put up are actual reasons against having the MX85s allowed apart from the "It's been this way for 30 years" (which it hasn't since FXR150s and the CC rule opened up for 4Ts)
Personally I hate this attitude with a pure passion, it is the attitude that drove buckets into the ground last time and it will do it again.

Innovate or Diethink you will find it was a lack of tracks that drove it into the ground

[kel]

once Pandora's box is opened, there will be no shutting it again.
Thats not so bad. If you remember your Greek mythology, the one thing left in Pandoras box was hope ...

[kel]

Let's have a look from a different angle.

Back in the day, there was an enormous gap between race engines and road bikes. At the most basic level, like water cooling and shit. It was not cost effective to share very much of the technology between the disciplines. These days it is, and commuter bikes share the same basic designs. FXR is a four valve head, RG150 is a great start point for making a stupidly fast 150.

Alas, there aren't road bikes made of the 2 stroke variety that fit bucket cc limitations. So since there's no difference in potential IF there were road bikes, why not open an avenue that replicates a progression that would have happened if the tree huggers didn't change the course?

A very well thought out post (tree hugger part aside) :niceone:

[FastFred]

The rule changes being considered here will have no effect on your ability or freedom to make what ever you feel it will just offer those who like two strokes to start at an even playing field without having to go read 900 pages of ESE to learn how to tune a 2T.


297258

I guess its fair enough that people who don't want to even make the effort to read the team ESE thread about tuning 2T's should be able to start on an even playing field with them.

297259297260

I mean after years of effort why should ESE or any other tuners through their own efforts have an advantage over johnny lazy or noddy no brains or daddy fat wallet.

(incidentally the ESE thread is becoming one of the best sources in the world about tuning your 2T)

[seymour14]

I can't help but feel that you are only looking from your perspective here. Sure it is "cheaper" and "easier" for you guys to build your motors, but look at the equipment that you have at your disposal... Put a price tag on that and tell average joe punter that is how you must build a motor. Not everyone is an engineer or wants to be an engineer and fair enough, some people just want a bike to go race.

and to be honest I can't help but laugh a little at the preaching of "built not bought" yet your own team offers a service for people to literally buy HP???

The rule changes being considered here will have no effect on your ability or freedom to make what ever you feel it will just offer those who like two strokes to start at an even playing field without having to go read 900 pages of ESE to learn how to tune a 2T.

Again non of the points you have put up are actual reasons against having the MX85s allowed apart from the "It's been this way for 30 years" (which it hasn't since FXR150s and the CC rule opened up for 4Ts)
Personally I hate this attitude with a pure passion, it is the attitude that drove buckets into the ground last time and it will do it again.

Innovate or Die

Point one- You can still race without the engineering talent to build a bike, just buy one off Trademe.

Point Two- We offer our services, sod all people use them because of cost, that's fine, still making the offer. I don't care about doing a whole bunch of work for people after my work week is done, but I will if someone is keen for the goods. It's Buckets, that's what we do.

Point three- As Scott pointed out, still TF motors built today, just like FXR's.

Point four- Whole reason for Buckets, and the Golden Rule! Why should we change it on your whim? I hate your reasons with a pure passion too! Buckets is quietly making a comeback, F4 is good, F5 is making a resurgence, Sidecars are back after an almost 10 year lay off. If you like two strokes, instead of trying to change the Golden rule, get yourself in F5 and give our good mate Dave some more competition, and people will be glad to see you in a class that needs a few more numbers.

If it aint broke, don't fix it.:shake:

[FastFred]

We offer our services, sod all people use them because of cost, that's fine, still making the offer.

And Team ESE offer knowledge by posting everything they do, sod all people make the effort to read it, why should they when they can see a simple rule change will allow them to "Level the Playing Field"..... :girlfight:

[mr bucketracer]

And Team ESE offer knowledge by posting everything they do, sod all people make the effort to read it, why should they when they can see a simple rule change will allow them to "Level the Playing Field"..... :girlfight:Thanks for you guys to put time in to post stuff , you would hate to see the tf 100 cylinders i have lieing around buggered working out how to make them go fast.. not cheap back then

[F5 Dave]

I guess its fair enough that people who don't want to even make the effort to read the team ESE thread about tuning 2T's should be able to start on an even playing field with them.

297258297259297260

I mean after years of effort why should ESE or any other tuners have an advantage over johnny lazy or noddy no brains or daddy fat wallet.

(incidentally the ESE thread is becoming one of the best sources in the world about tuning your 2T)

In stock form an MX85 with sub 20hp & a peaky spread isn't going to bother a 30 or even 25hp good spread engine like you've been making. Depending on the rider of course. get Av's bike up & running & let Nat out on it & see if he can break the mtWgtn record again perhaps?

[seymour14]

Thanks for you guys to put time in to post stuff , you would hate to see the tf 100 cylinders i have lieing around buggered working out how to make them go fast.. not cheap back then

Which leads me to another point, why are there not a constant stream of new guys coming into buckets with new TF motors, answer- they probably would like a bit of four stroke reliability while they learn the game, two strokes are more for the purists. Two strokes may be something to aspire to perhaps! Not a bad thing.

I feel for you guys for the disparity, times have changed. Don't think changing the rules is going to get a flood of new people in though. If the new engine was introduced, there is still all the other costs involved, and that for 99% of people is the game changer anyway. Having the new TF motors around with little to no one using them sort of proves this point.

[steamroller]

Are you really comparing a fxr150 power curve to a 85? What a bloody joke!

Seriously offer some reasoned input to this discussion not just "I got beat by a kid on an 80 so they are clearly too fast"

Next we're going to have people saying they will quit buckets if 85s come in, like a disgruntled 12yo.

As Mike put it earlier the non competition rule is out dated and redundant.

ok so if the power curve of a 150 to a 85 are overlapped and are identical same rpm ever thing what is the difference whats the joke?

[steamroller]

In stock form an MX85 with sub 20hp & a peaky spread isn't going to bother a 30 or even 25hp good spread engine like you've been making. Depending on the rider of course. get Av's bike up & running & let Nat out on it & see if he can break the mtWgtn record again perhaps?

so you only want them in stock form yes or no

[Sketchy_Racer]

ok so if the power curve of a 150 to a 85 are overlapped and are identical same rpm ever thing what is the difference whats the joke?

Because they never will be, that simple.

Really, do you really think a 85cc two stroke will have the same power curve as a 150cc four stroke at the same peak HP??? Have you riden a small capacity 2T? There's a reason Daves 50cc lives with blue clutch plates and it's not because he love peaky power, its the by product of getting large peak HP out of little capacity motors.

[Sketchy_Racer]

If it aint broke, don't fix it.:shake:

Yeah but it doesn't mean you shouldn't maintain it. :bleh:



Look all arguments aside, we all want the best for the sport and like anything in life we all have our opinions. I'm worried now that it is getting too personal and I don't want it turning into a storm in teacup.

Next opportunity a submission will be put forward to MNZ for a rule change, and it will be simply up to them to decide if it get accepted or not.

Until then the 85 will float about in Welly and hopfully my supercharger bike will turn up to a track soon :D

[F5 Dave]

so you only want them in stock form yes or no

Read the rest of the thread! I don't know. I'm not pushing for one way or the other yet. My thoughts are if we let them in in Stock or some restrictions they would be at a disadvantage to the top bikes, but a good starting point - probably equivilent to an FXR club bike with carb & hacky pipe. We might then decide whether to unleash them.

So no, I won't & can't answer yes or no.

[steamroller]

Read the rest of the thread! I don't know. I'm not pushing for one way or the other yet. My thoughts are if we let them in in Stock or some restrictions they would be at a disadvantage to the top bikes, but a good starting point - probably equivilent to an FXR club bike with carb & hacky pipe. We might then decide whether to unleash them.

So no, I won't & can't answer yes or no.

stock 85 i think is fine

[F5 Dave]

Which leads me to another point, why are there not a constant stream of new guys coming into buckets with new TF motors, answer- they probably would like a bit of four stroke reliability while they learn the game, two strokes are more for the purists. Two strokes may be something to aspire to perhaps! Not a bad thing.

I feel for you guys for the disparity, times have changed. Don't think changing the rules is going to get a flood of new people in though. If the new engine was introduced, there is still all the other costs involved, and that for 99% of people is the game changer anyway. Having the new TF motors around with little to no one using them sort of proves this point.

Ahh c'mon. Why would anyone buy a new TF unless you wanted it for its intended purpose to rape sheep in the top paddock or whatever it is is that they are supposed to be for?

[mr bucketracer]

Yeah but it doesn't mean you shouldn't maintain it. :bleh:



Look all arguments aside, we all want the best for the sport and like anything in life we all have our opinions. I'm worried now that it is getting too personal and I don't want it turning into a storm in teacup.

Next opportunity a submission will be put forward to MNZ for a rule change, and it will be simply up to them to decide if it get accepted or not.

Until then the 85 will float about in Welly and hopfully my supercharger bike will turn up to a track soon :Dyou already hit me with low blows , standard i'm happy , we already know they win gp's with a near mx type engine so what more do you need to know?

[steamroller]

Because they never will be, that simple.

Really, do you really think a 85cc two stroke will have the same power curve as a 150cc four stroke at the same peak HP??? Have you riden a small capacity 2T? There's a reason Daves 50cc lives with blue clutch plates and it's not because he love peaky power, its the by product of getting large peak HP out of little capacity motors.

becouse they never will ok. do you want 85 stock yes or no?

[mr bucketracer]

Because they never will be, that simple.

Really, do you really think a 85cc two stroke will have the same power curve as a 150cc four stroke at the same peak HP??? Have you riden a small capacity 2T? There's a reason Daves 50cc lives with blue clutch plates and it's not because he love peaky power, its the by product of getting large peak HP out of little capacity motors.mikes 100 has no power valve and will bet you it will kill are 4 strokes in every way , what do yo think a power valve dose ?

[steamroller]

Ahh c'mon. Why would anyone buy a new TF unless you wanted it for its intended purpose to rape sheep in the top paddock or whatever it is is that they are supposed to be for?

haha i think one was in front of you at the gp that 2 things they are good for now

[steamroller]

haha i think one was in front of you at the gp that 2 things they are good for now

had a ride on it a few weeks ago real nice bike to ride so good its made me want one