The cheater MX85 argument. I might be changing my mind.

[seymour14]

What might be more constructive would be to talk to Suzuki NZ and get them to bring TF and FXR motors in and sell them at cost +5%, the bonus being they can sell the parts needed for them to us later. Win/Win.

Maybe some day we will be on the 3 second Suzuki lead up to TV3 news weather forecast....:msn-wink:

I will be protesting the Class change, with common sense.:cool:

[husaberg]

And what about the spread of power? Oh sorry broken record, but no one's listening.


I'm listening, but at 24hp with proper tuning the power spread, well it should be the same if not better as mikes 30hp MB100, Why wouldn't it be different.
If we actually look at your bike Dave, you have basically replicated what a MX85 design is, with hard work....

How come no one answered this?


Let's have a look from a different angle.

Back in the day, there was an enormous gap between race engines and road bikes. At the most basic level, like water cooling and shit. It was not cost effective to share very much of the technology between the disciplines. These days it is, and commuter bikes share the same basic designs. FXR is a four valve head, RG150 is a great start point for making a stupidly fast 150.

Alas, there aren't road bikes made of the 2 stroke variety that fit bucket cc limitations. So since there's no difference in potential IF there were road bikes, why not open an avenue that replicates a progression that would have happened if the tree huggers didn't change the course?

there are other options TZR125 DTR125 RG125 RG150's

[Sketchy_Racer]

you already hit me with low blows , standard i'm happy , we already know they win gp's with a near mx type engine so what more do you need to know?

Sorry, I couldn't help myself :devil2:... Standard I would be happy, mine is standard and is an awesome entry level motor.


becouse they never will ok. do you want 85 stock yes or no?

Standard I would be happy but personally I think just open the rules to all motors and just limit capacity.


mikes 100 has no power valve and will bet you it will kill are 4 strokes in every way , what do yo think a power valve dose ?

I know what a power valve does, on the 85 it does bugger all. It operates in a range that is useless for road racing. The dyno might be bollocks for numbers but as a comparator, it is good.


had a ride on it a few weeks ago real nice bike to ride so good its made me want one

Was that Ricks bike? I had a ride on his at kaitoke and was suitable impressed by the the power. TF motor, no idea what he's done to it

[kel]

mikes 100 has no power valve and will bet you it will kill are 4 strokes in every way , what do yo think a power valve dose ?


A well built 100cc water cooled non comp motor should walk all over a 150 four, just as it should walk all over a 85MX.
Power valves on small capacity bikes are over rated. On the big tracks they will always be fully open, on the small tracks they will have trouble keeping up with the rpm changes due to short gearing and clutch slipping out of corners. Aprilia didnt bother with power valves on their 125 GP bikes, they were used on 250 racers mainly to smooth the power delivery. They are not super chargers.
How about we make a concession that power valves must be hard wired open? I could live with that.
MX85 2 stroke vs 150 four stroke is a good match up and anyone that can run the numbers knows this. Both bikes will have their strengths and weaknesses, 4 strokes should dominate the kart tracks, the MX85's just might dominant the big tracks.

[Skunk]

Then some might want 150 air cooled 2T with 28 carb. Others might want 175cc 4t. The 85cc MX crowd might want over bore to 100cc. Where would it end?
There is nout all wrong with the rules as is.

Four strokes should be 145cc then. THAT would make it 'nout wrong with the rules as is'.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[Rick 52]

had a ride on it a few weeks ago real nice bike to ride so good its made me want one

Nothing wrong with a TF125 at all, it's a very nice engine, glad you enjoyed it as much as I do,
Reliable as clock work and lots of bottom end power, it's served me well with a NI championship and 3x 2nd places, it's leading the Auckland points at the mo, what more do you want ?
Cheap, reliable, abundant and still being made today.
Maybe it's just not cool because it started life as a farm bike !!

[Skunk]

If I give you an old one will you build me one just like yours for free? And do that for everyone who asks?


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Nothing wrong with a TF125 at all, it's a very nice engine, glad you enjoyed it as much as I do,
Reliable as clock work and lots of bottom end power, it's served me well with a NI championship and 3x 2nd places, it's leading the Auckland points at the mo, what more do you want ?
Cheap, reliable, abundant and still being made today.
Maybe it's just not cool because it started life as a farm bike !!

What's been done to your TF Rick?? As I said earlier I was very impressed with your motor but always assumed it's had a lot of development work.

[kel]

there are other options TZR125 DTR125 RG125 RG150's
Well thats just plain dumb. Was it suggested that the FXR's should all be sleeved down to 125cc? Probably was :lol:. Thankfully common sense prevailed on that one, and the class benefited no end.
Im glad we cant see who, and how they voted in the poll, but I'd put money on the fact that the people who voted no are the same ones that vote no to everything.

[husaberg]

Well thats just plain dumb. Was it suggested that the FXR's should all be sleeved down to 125cc? Probably was :lol:. Thankfully common sense prevailed on that one, and the class benefited no end.
Im glad we cant see who, and how they voted in the poll, but I'd put money on the fact that the people who voted no are the same ones that vote no to everything.

A well built 100cc water cooled non comp motor should walk all over a 150 four, just as it should walk all over a 85MX.
Power valves on small capacity bikes are over rated. On the big tracks they will always be fully open, on the small tracks they will have trouble keeping up with the rpm changes due to short gearing and clutch slipping out of corners. Aprilia didnt bother with power valves on their 125 GP bikes, they were used on 250 racers mainly to smooth the power delivery. They are not super chargers.
How about we make a concession that power valves must be hard wired open? I could live with that.
MX85 2 stroke vs 150 four stroke is a good match up and anyone that can run the numbers knows this. Both bikes will have their strengths and weaknesses, 4 strokes should dominate the kart tracks, the MX85's just might dominant the big tracks.
Not as dumb as saying the RSA125 and the RSW125 don't have power valves when they so plainly do.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=281246&d=1365770361:niceone:

[kel]

Not as dumb as saying the RSA125 and the RSW125 don't have power valves when they so plainly do.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=281246&d=1365770361:niceone:
Classic :lol:
Im sure Frits said they didnt bother with power valves on the 125's

[Bert]

there are other options TZR125 DTR125 RG125 RG150's

all good options. 50mm stroke.

also suzuki TS125r, TDM150, TZR150, DTR150...

while they turn up now and again they aren't common...

[Rick 52]

Was that Ricks bike? I had a ride on his at kaitoke and was suitable impressed by the the power. TF motor, no idea what he's done to it

Yea it was, and it's better now with wider power and another HP, ESE helped me with some tips on tidying the porting, cutting the back of the piston down by another 2mm and useing a kart carb, I also made a new pipe and increased the stinger diameter, the worse thing with the TF is the gearbox so I changed it for a TS 125 .

[Yow Ling]

all good options. 50mm stroke.

also suzuki TS125r, TDM150, TZR150, DTR150...

while they turn up now and again they aren't common...

RG150 is common, in fact as they are declining in streetstock they are a good option for putting a sleeved rgv 250 cylinder onto.
this is what nigel duffs and dieselpigs bikes are based on

[husaberg]

Classic :lol:
Im sure Frits said they didnt bother with power valves on the 125's

I can remember him saying that they respond far faster than the rev counter Strike two.
He did say a decent rider worth his salt should be sacked if he was ever below 10000 rpm or something

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=281246&d=1365770361
http://www.siegertyamaha.com/MotorradVerk/C214a.jpg
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=281245&d=1365769602
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=262124&d=1334571540
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=276705&d=1358678743
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=265468&d=1340504707
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=265471&d=1340505276
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=277987&d=1360050367

[Skunk]

all good options. 50mm stroke.

also suzuki TS125r, TDM150, TZR150, DTR150...

while they turn up now and again they aren't common...

Or easy.

I thought this was an idea to OPEN the class up to MORE riders. Instead you either ride a diesel or have be rich or an engineer. I don't like the options and the attitude that everything is ok. It's not.

Over and out. Can't be fucked with old school thinking. Some of you should be on the MNZ Board. No changes unless it suits you personally.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[TZ350]

Unless a standard MX85 only makes 12-14 rwhp which is where TF-TS-GP-RX125's etc and the FXR150's (14rwhp) start from then a standard MX85 more than levels the playing field, they are a significant head start on whatever is legal and currently available.


... personally I think just open the rules to all motors and just limit capacity.

If MX85's are to come in so as to make more 2T's available for Bucket racing, then to be fair to everyone, open rules with only there capacity limited would be my pick for a level playing field. That way it gives the accomplished fiddlers something new to work with too.

[chrisc]

Agreed^ Shit even factory cylinders would be a great idea as they'd need to be re-plated if ported because of the nikasil. This would prevent all but the most keen from tackling them.
I even think the maximum chamber diameter was a great idea although that might not really be applicable as the engines we all seem to build are aimed towards a large spread of power. Super easy to enforce. Buckets is no place for complex rules which require a load of effort to police.

[husaberg]

Over and out. Can't be fucked with old school thinking. Some of you should be on the MNZ Board. No changes unless it suits you personally.




Or conversely why not change a 35 year old rule cause that would suit you nicely...........:msn-wink:

[steamroller]

A well built 100cc water cooled non comp motor should walk all over a 150 four, just as it should walk all over a 85MX.
Power valves on small capacity bikes are over rated. On the big tracks they will always be fully open, on the small tracks they will have trouble keeping up with the rpm changes due to short gearing and clutch slipping out of corners. Aprilia didnt bother with power valves on their 125 GP bikes, they were used on 250 racers mainly to smooth the power delivery. They are not super chargers.
How about we make a concession that power valves must be hard wired open? I could live with that.
MX85 2 stroke vs 150 four stroke is a good match up and anyone that can run the numbers knows this. Both bikes will have their strengths and weaknesses, 4 strokes should dominate the kart tracks, the MX85's just might dominant the big tracks.

but you said they dont do any thing so why hard wire them open hard wire them shut:weird:

[Skunk]

I have no plans to built one. Can you not read?


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[Sketchy_Racer]

If MX85's are to come in so as to make more 2T's available for Bucket racing, then open rules with only there capacity limited would be my pick for a level playing field. That way it gives the fiddlers something new to work with too.

Yeah, it would be so awesome, think of all the hot motors running around and performance potential limited to 30HP

[husaberg]

i have no plans to built one. Can you not read?


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.
toofo...............
I can read but it was only after all these posts that you said oh i don't want to build one LOL


To me this is about having access to a reasonable power 2 stoke without having to be a fucking expert or have dyno and large wallet. The lack of something like this is what is KEEPING ME OUT OF THE SPORT!

Go on, tell me if I can't afford to race under the current rules I shouldn't bother.
If it ain't smokin', it's broken.


I don't really care for tailoring for lil johnnies. It's there parents that do the work so it has to suit them.
And can be just like me...
I don't think more and more power is a good thing. I'd like to see a hp limit if anything.
And I don't want a dirty diesel.
If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

Because I love 2 strokes. Why shouldn't I be able to race one?
4 strokes have gone from 140cc to 160 and multi valve without any change to the old 2 stroke rules
If it ain't smokin', it's broken.


Bolt it in and ride. My TF is 9hp. MX85 should be 17hp.
To be clear - I can build a bike but I can't do porting, swish and jetting. MX85 comes already set.
If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

Too much. I already know what's needed for 20hp.
An MX85 will turn up at a cheaper price.
Maybe the pipe needs to be std as a restriction...
If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[Rick 52]

What's been done to your TF Rick?? As I said earlier I was very impressed with your motor but always assumed it's had a lot of development work.

The engine was built when I got it, it was in a RG50 frame, people have said it was a Pete Sales bike but I'm not sure, Rob from ESE Would give you the port timing numbers as I've never written them down, it runs TKRJ normal pistons with a little skim of the dome for a better shape and 8mm of the back of the skirt, standard crank, standard steel reeds (changed every year) o ring head, Honda CR85 ignition 3rd generation self made pipe, ESE have said much more can be had from it but I would hate to loose the reliability, I get my kicks from racing it rather than searching for more power.
The 85mx debate has been very interesting but a little confusing, the lap times have tumbled in the last two years with guys spending more and more on getting power, I hope some don't get put of racing because they don't have the budget or experience to build a competitive machine .

[seymour14]

Or conversely why not change a 35 year old rule cause that would suit you nicely...........:msn-wink:

Fully agree. There's where the real agenda lies!

I treat Nat's bike as the one to beat, so the aspiration is to try to achieve this within the rules.

And we are happy to try out a two-stroke within the current rules.

If we were moaners, we could harp on about the lack of 100cc four strokes available for us to use in F5, but no worries, we'll have a crack at that too in time, within the rules.

[steamroller]

Nothing wrong with a TF125 at all, it's a very nice engine, glad you enjoyed it as much as I do,
Reliable as clock work and lots of bottom end power, it's served me well with a NI championship and 3x 2nd places, it's leading the Auckland points at the mo, what more do you want ?
Cheap, reliable, abundant and still being made today.
Maybe it's just not cool because it started life as a farm bike !!

To me thats what makes it so cool look at it now i loved riding it and the power was great:apumpin:

[TZ350]

Yeah, it would be so awesome, think of all the hot motors running around and performance potential limited to 30HP

Not so long ago 20rwhp was considered remarkable, now its 30 with most race winning bikes in the mid 20's. A hot MX85 should be able to do that and maybe someone could even get one to 30. Un-limited, I think they could be a very handy little engine.

[steamroller]

I have no plans to built one. Can you not read?


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

skunk if 85 come in should they stay stock?

[Sketchy_Racer]

Not so long ago 20rwhp was considered remarkable, now its 30 with most race winning bikes in the mid 20's. A hot MX85 should be able to do that and maybe someone could even get one to 30. Un-limited, I think they could be a very handy little engine.

How do you think the power curve would look with a 85 at 30hp?

The reason I ask is that I have recently learnt how important the area under the curve is. Having put both my 85 and kyles FXR150 on the dyno anyone would swear looking at the two curves at a glance the 85 would be the clear winner, however on the track the they are exactly the same.

It would not surprise me if a 25HP 150 with a good spread would kill any 85 with 30HP.

I agree with your sentiments of 20hp used to be the bench mark of a fast bucket, but now it's not even in the ball park.

[Bert]

Or easy.

I thought this was an idea to OPEN the class up to MORE riders. Instead you either ride a diesel or have be rich or an engineer. I don't like the options and the attitude that everything is ok. It's not.

Over and out. Can't be fucked with old school thinking. Some of you should be on the MNZ Board. No changes unless it suits you personally.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

settle petal; no need for the aggression and the view that everything is broken.

And for the record; despite the some from team declaring that the entire team is against this... I'm in the other camp..
So I'm guessing I'm out of the team...

but, primarily for the purpose of expanding the possibilities and following other classes of similar elk.



This entire tread has degraded into a stack of personal opinions and attacks; and some are refusing to look at questions poised.

if the 85cc were let in, what controlling rules are needed to to ensure that no significant advantage is gained ?

SWOT anyone.
Strengths:
1. the supply and availability of parts
2. reliability and maintenance of Hp over duration of a race (24 to start, 24 at the end)...
Weakness:
1. motors likely to be flogged out so a bit of work required.
2. people perception of cheating...
Opportunities:
1. potential for more riders or more at the pointy end.
2.
Threats:
1. potentially out perform current bikes
2. no controls in place to ensure the class doesn't loose it appeal.

this has to be explored before any submissions are put to MNZ.

So open discussions (rather than shit throwing); and testing is the only way forward.

Dave has brought forward a couple of really good simple controlling measures.
my two cents: open engine work, controlled exhaust, stock ignition & restricted Carb.
(& 25kg of lead if the rider is less than 70kg- - eat some food you little buggers).
we are never going to see a 30Hp 85cc MX here in NZ (unless some very trick aftermarket parts are thrown at one; so stop that from happening)...

where is the harm really. Start adding the the SWOT list (I'll keep amending it)..

[steamroller]

How do you think the power curve would look with a 85 at 30hp?

The reason I ask is that I have recently learnt how important the area under the curve is. Having put both my 85 and kyles FXR150 on the dyno anyone would swear looking at the two curves at a glance the 85 would be the clear winner, however on the track the they are exactly the same.

It would not surprise me if a 25HP 150 with a good spread would kill any 85 with 30HP.

I agree with your sentiments of 20hp used to be the bench mark of a fast bucket, but now it's not even in the ball park.

When your on the track racing your not riding half throttle its all top end. again the the 85 is 24 hp fxr150 25hp my bike coud not do a thing in a straigt line i think the 85 just had a bit on me give it 30 hp and yeah

[Sketchy_Racer]

Strengths:

1. the supply and availability of parts
2. reliability and maintenance of Hp over duration of a race (24 to start, 24 at the end)...
3. good starting platform for engine development
4. race ready for mid level power output
5. light weight


Weakness:

1. motors likely to be flogged out so a bit of work required.
2. people perception of cheating...
3. not the easiest to mount in road chassis
4. porting the plated cylinder might cause chipping


Opportunities:

1. potential for more riders or more at the pointy end.
2. opens the doors to mx based riders who know and like the motors



Threats:

1. potentially out performance
2. no controls in place to ensure
3. upset others with half developed motors

[goose8]

Not so long ago 20rwhp was considered remarkable, now its 30 with most race winning bikes in the mid 20's. A hot MX85 should be able to do that and maybe someone could even get one to 30. Un-limited, I think they could be a very handy little engine.Nathaniel's bike had 23 maybe 24 at the gp and Dave's bike had 22.5hp mb100 and it weights 90kg and he set a new lap record with it , and the same bike still holds the out right lap record at mt welly With me at 85kg on it so hp is not everything but I can't wait to ride it again when mike gets it back to 30hp and you can buy new cylinders and cranks for about $40 a piece so personally don't think mx85 are needed. But then I don't think gp chassis should of been allowed either.

[mr bucketracer]

When your on the track racing your not riding half throttle its all top end. again the the 85 is 24 hp fxr150 25hp my bike coud not do a thing in a straigt line i think the 85 just had a bit on me give it 30 hp and yeahthats a fair call from 2 fast riders , if it was not for f5 dave with his new 50 gettting near 14hp with such little work ( knowing once apon a time )pete sales it took years to get there, i may have a diffient view on it

[husaberg]

all good options. 50mm stroke.

also suzuki TS125r, TDM150, TZR150, DTR150...

while they turn up now and again they aren't common...

Yeah you would be pretty silly to choose a 54mm streoke NRS125 aye:weird:

settle petal; no need for the aggression and the view that everything is broken.

And for the record; despite the some from team declaring that the entire team is against this... I'm in the other camp..
So I'm guessing I'm out of the team...

but, primarily for the purpose of expanding the possibilities and following other classes of similar elk.



This entire tread has degraded into a stack of personal opinions and attacks; and some are refusing to look at questions poised.

if the 85cc were let in, what controlling rules are needed to to ensure that no significant advantage is gained ?

SWOT anyone.
Strengths:
1. the supply and availability of parts
2. reliability and maintenance of Hp over duration of a race (24 to start, 24 at the end)...
Weakness:
1. motors likely to be flogged out so a bit of work required.
2. people perception of cheating...
Opportunities:
1. potential for more riders or more at the pointy end.
2.
Threats:
1. potentially out perform current bikes
2. no controls in place to ensure the class doesn't loose it appeal.

this has to be explored before any submissions are put to MNZ.

So open discussions (rather than shit throwing); and testing is the only way forward.

Dave has brought forward a couple of really good simple controlling measures.
my two cents: open engine work, controlled exhaust, stock ignition & restricted Carb.
(& 25kg of lead if the rider is less than 70kg- - eat some food you little buggers).
we are never going to see a 30Hp 85cc MX here in NZ (unless some very trick aftermarket parts are thrown at one; so stop that from happening)...

where is the harm really. Start adding the the SWOT list (I'll keep amending it)..


Right the weakness for the current rules is the fuzzyness arround the parts. The dreaded SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS in motors.
Not being able to use a competition rod and bearing or crankshaft is trite.
I think gearboxs and clutch should be open.
The general lack of decent pistons for the 100's without expensive destroking. (submission in place)
if the 85 have to come in they have to be restricted to std cc and Pipe diameter is a great idea plus put a year cap on them to exclude the check book racers buying late model KTM's say 05 or something?


PS anyone able to send me a drawing of the transfer and stud positions of a TF125
ie a scan of the base gasket with a ruler?

[TZ350]

How do you think the power curve would look with a 85 at 30hp?

The reason I ask is that I have recently learnt how important the area under the curve is. Having put both my 85 and kyles FXR150 on the dyno anyone would swear looking at the two curves at a glance the 85 would be the clear winner, however on the track the they are exactly the same.

It would not surprise me if a 25HP 150 with a good spread would kill any 85 with 30HP.

These questions and the answers and the reasoning behind them have all been well covered by knowledgeable people in the ESE thread, if your at all interested in 2T's it might be worth a look ..... :D

[TZ350]

if the 85 have to come in they have to be restricted (Pipe diameter is a great idea)

Wob may correct me, but I think that all things being equal a fat pipe design gives more torque and a smaller diameter pipe more hp (albeit peaker). So one will just have to use the clutch and gear box a bit more, I recommend Kevlar clutch plates for that snappy 30hp zing out of the corners.

[husaberg]

Wob may correct me, but I think that a fat pipe gives torque and a smaller dia pipe more hp (albeit peaker).

i thought the fatter is the betterer for both in'it? up to a point? torque is HP its just at its speed of effort...... or something frits would tut tut you Rob.............

[Sketchy_Racer]

When your on the track racing your not riding half throttle its all top end. again the the 85 is 24 hp fxr150 25hp my bike coud not do a thing in a straigt line i think the 85 just had a bit on me give it 30 hp and yeah

I'm sorry but this is simply not the case.


If partial throttle wasn't used why don't you replace your throttle with a switch? If you had ever looked at a data log of throttle % over the course of a a lap you would start to understand the importance of it and why engine tuners are for even in search of flat torque curves. Unless you have a CVT.

By your statement there you are suggesting the RPM does not change for each gear? So my 85 has 16HP the whole time I have the throttle open? I don't think so. Keep in mind that in the time that it's taken the FXR to shift 1 gear, the 85 has shifted 3, and that's three gears shifts of power not on the ground.

The dyno comparisons don't lie. Both bikes, same dyno same conditions.

297274

[TZ350]

i thought the fatter is the betterer for both in'it? up to a point? torque is HP its just at its speed of effort...... or something frits would tut tut you Rob.............

Not really sure as I am just starting to think about this pipe business. But when you think about the energy in the pipe I think a smaller diameter will have greater reflected energy plugging the exhaust port but over a smaller rpm range. And with a fat pipe you sacrifice some peak hp by using the pipe to broaden the rpm range of deep suck at BDC.

[richban]

Something to consider. The people commenting on this thread that actually sling there leg over a bucket and race represent maybe 5-10% of the 100 or more active racers around the country.


Not much will change. Old fat guys will still get schooled buy skinny kids on with less hp.

Who gives a fuck. Look around you old crying babies. You are old and grumpy, time to hang up the boots if it's all so stressful for yah.

Strom / Teacup.

[husaberg]

Not sure just, starting to think about this pipe business. But when you think about the energy in the pipe I think a smaller diameter will have greater reflected energy but over a smaller rpm range.

Not sure i am still stuck at Bell with the pipes but i am pretty sure the DIA is a function of the engine size........even on the formula done from frits pipe design.
the big problem is fitting them in when the cylinders get big ie over 250 or if you have 4 of them or such malacky
Maybe they are right and its all witchcraft and secret skulduggery.........
But for me the suckiness is always a intrinsic factor of volume, with and its length for its rpm. its angles for its combination of range with is an expression of its volume also.........

[Sketchy_Racer]

thats a fair call from 2 fast riders , if it was not for f5 dave with his new 50 gettting near 14hp with such little work ( knowing once apon a time )pete sales it took years to get there, i may have a diffient view on it

That's because he's got a competition engine.... oh but that one is legal because they threw it in a couple of road bikes in Europe. It even says world championship winning or something on the side of the engine case!!!

[husaberg]

That's because he's got a competition engine.... oh but that one is legal because they threw it in a couple of road bikes in Europe. It even says world championship winning or something on the side of the engine case!!!

Still legal:killingme
That is the important bit........

Maybe we should have a claiming rule like they used to in AUS top three finishers at BOB bikes are able to be brought by another racer for $3000 or something
Stop the $1000 carbs

[Sketchy_Racer]

Still legal:killingme
That is the important bit........

Maybe we should have a claiming rule like they used to in AUS top three finishers at BOB bikes are able to be brought by another racer for $3000 or something
Stop the $1000 carbs

It's important that it is legal yes, but it is daft that we ban other motors that are of the same nature because the manufactures in Japan didn't put them in road chassis.

and hell yeah that rule would be awesome!!

[TZ350]

Not sure i am still stuck at Bell with the pipes but i am pretty sure the DIA is a function of the engine size.........

True, but consistent with all compromises I think you bias the required pipe diameter one way or the other depending on the results you want.

[husaberg]

It's important that it is legal yes, but it is daft that we ban other motors that are of the same nature because the manufactures in Japan didn't put them in road chassis.

and hell yeah that rule would be awesome!!

Yeah but i struggle to get beyond the buckets not as a class for modded commuters or stuff brewd in a shed.
Its just a part of what makes buckets buckets for me.
be interested to see Richs input on the claiming rule.............Maybe $5000?...........

[husaberg]

True, but I think you bias it one way or the other depending on the results you want.

I would have to look at Wobs stuff its the one thing that still very cagdy with the two strokes even Frits.
Than again wob is in the pipe business so it makes sense not to give away everything.
Plus Jan always says they had to test everything with the pipes the formulas always had assumptions with speed of waves.
Maybe we should be having this conversation on that ESE thread....:msn-wink:

[steamroller]

I'm sorry but this is simply not the case.


If partial throttle wasn't used why don't you replace your throttle with a switch? If you had ever looked at a data log of throttle % over the course of a a lap you would start to understand the importance of it and why engine tuners are for even in search of flat torque curves. Unless you have a CVT.

By your statement there you are suggesting the RPM does not change for each gear? So my 85 has 16HP the whole time I have the throttle open? I don't think so. Keep in mind that in the time that it's taken the FXR to shift 1 gear, the 85 has shifted 3, and that's three gears shifts of power not on the ground.

The dyno comparisons don't lie. Both bikes, same dyno same conditions.

297274

haha we are not talking about super bikes my statement is i was in the gp given it my all to tri and win fuck all in the lap times with my bike and the 85. it was faster at 24 hp i dont no what you dont under stand with that. you should do a gp then you may see

[steamroller]

That's because he's got a competition engine.... oh but that one is legal because they threw it in a couple of road bikes in Europe. It even says world championship winning or something on the side of the engine case!!!

Shit that sounds like your saying just the bike did it remember the rider. i can put words in you mouth to a.

[Sketchy_Racer]

haha we are not talking about super bikes my statement is i was in the gp given it my all to tri and win fuck all in the lap times with my bike and the 85. it was faster at 24 hp i dont no what you dont under stand with that. you should do a gp then you may see

It doesn't matter that it is not superbikes, the physics are still the same and still apply.

Maybe the Derbi seemed faster because he simply got on the gas earlier and harder. Who's to know, but I'd bet my bike that his 80 has a much peakier power curve than your 150.

[mr bucketracer]

It doesn't matter that it is not superbikes, the physics are still the same and still apply.

Maybe the Derbi seemed faster because he simply got on the gas earlier and harder. Who's to know, but I'd bet my bike that his 80 has a much peakier power curve than your 150.and what does that matter ? you ride a 2 stroke diffent to a 4? you get use to it!!! my first race i ever won was on a rs125 in the f3 class after regan broke his arm in the morning , i had neven riden one before was on a nc24 then .. after 3 races on it i just changed my WAY OF RIDING ...NO BIG DEAL! no engine breaking ..cool . PS 8 BIKES WENT PAST ME IN EVERY STRATE. and realy what i just put means shit all..

[Bert]

F##K Me.

:doh::doh:


Something to consider. The people commenting on this thread that actually sling there leg over a bucket and race represent maybe 5-10% of the 100 or more active racers around the country.
Not much will change. Old fat guys will still get schooled buy skinny kids on with less hp.
Who gives a fuck. Look around you old crying babies. You are old and grumpy, time to hang up the boots if it's all so stressful for yah.
Storm / Teacup.

na they now want weight rules.



It's important that it is legal yes, but it is daft that we ban other motors that are of the same nature because the manufactures in Japan didn't put them in road chassis.


Bingo.

[husaberg]

F##K Me.



I'd rather not. Don't get me wrong I am sure you are a good looking fella, but i understand Koba's cuter, But should i believe Dave? it was weird he brought it up actually.......... to many Honda and daigo combination parts?

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/e5/e5d1fa62f9802462218545214408bb8da7cc81720b65c16b66 b598bce2ecf62b.jpg

[Pumba]

na they now want weight rules now. so there isn't any weight advantage...

Fuck that's not new. Been suggesting that for a while. 200kg min weight limit bike plus rider. Ballast to be worn by the rider.

I still won't win but fuck it would be fun to see

[F5 Dave]

thats a fair call from 2 fast riders , if it was not for f5 dave with his new 50 gettting near 14hp with such little work ( knowing once apon a time )pete sales it took years to get there, i may have a diffient view on it

What's this such little work stuff? I've done shit loads ( i started building years ago) and be lucky if I've matched the RG so far

And remember the bit I said about wishing Nats Derbi was stuffed full of illegal bits? Well people are calling it an 85 here when it clearly isn't . The Derbi engine well I've only seen the std 50, is 20yeArs more modern than the RG. But its still a learner moped probably good for 10hp as opposed to the 6 the RG did std.

[Bert]

I'd rather not. Don't get me wrong I am sure you are a good looking fella, but i understand Koba's cuter, But should i believe Dave? it was weird he brought it up actually.......... to many Honda and daigo combination parts?


some might say good looking. but likely as blind as I am..


Dave bringing up the topic.
well every few years now (since 2005) Dave and myself have been at logger heads over this topic (go search the forum).
I think he might have finally realised that these little things aren't going to make huge change to the current front runners (unless riden by someone that can actually ride).
and if that happens; well all good for the class. competition will only make it more fun.

A worked FXR (or maybe something even newer) will shit all over these with an averagely good rider on board.

its not buckets...
you didn't build it yourself....
Well your not going to carry the engine around are you???
You have to put it into something...

we all know that handling and weight makes the major difference.
So lets adjust the rules and ban performance frames/suspension/wheel/slicks... etc.
bugger all of that stuff was around 30years ago...

F##K


What's this such little work stuff? I've done shit loads ( i started building years ago) and be lucky if I've matched the RG so far

And remember the bit I said about wishing Nats Derbi was stuffed full of illegal bits?

Well people are calling it an 85 here when it clearly isn't .

The Derbi engine well I've only seen the std 50, is 20yeArs more modern than the RG.
But its still a learner moped probably good for 10hp as opposed to the 6 the RG did std.

so are you saying this years F4 GP was won by a 50???
hope it was overbored above 51cc...

[F5 Dave]

Actually I think std TZR/RGV/MITO engine would be great if you could police it
25 hp ok spread and reliable enough to sell to 16yr olds.

No Honda engines though. Don't want to give people the wrong idea huh

[husaberg]

Actually I think std TZR/RGV/MITO engine would be great if you could police it
25 hp ok spread and reliable enough to sell to 16yr olds.

No Honda engines though. Don't want to give people the wrong idea huh

Next thing you will be telling us its actually a Montessa.
I was musing myself about 125 liquid cooled maybe with a 22 carb or something?
But i guess i have a self interest there though?

[TZ350]

200kg min weight limit bike plus rider. Ballast to be worn by the rider.


Yes and it should be attached to their helmet by a rope so the weight swings around like a pendulum.... :lol:

[Bert]

Actually I think std TZR/RGV/MITO engine would be great if you could police it
25 hp ok spread and reliable enough to sell to 16yr olds.

No Honda engines though. Don't want to give people the wrong idea huh


Next thing you will be telling us its actually a Montessa.
I was musing myself about 125 liquid cooled maybe with a 22 carb or something?
But i guess i have a self interest their though?

Yea na...

Though I have one already.
Husa maybe you just need to sort your little girl out. Buying a Yamaha would be a good start.:killingme

Maybe to answer your older statement/question. Rather than welding up your crank, why not just find a larger rod with a larger big end shaft then just grind in the required offset. Maybe a Yamaha rd400 or something of that elk.

[husaberg]

Yea na...

Though I have one already.
Husa maybe you just need to sort your little girl out. Buying a Yamaha would be a good start.:killingme

Maybe to answer your older statement/question. Rather than welding up your crank, why not just find a larger rod with a larger big end shaft then just grind in the required offset. Maybe a Yamaha rd400 or something of that elk.

Nah i am stuck with the 20m pin cause i am stuck with it, cause it suits my long rod (don't get the wrong idea)
Looks like it has to be sleeved which i think the aprilia was anyway, their crank actually looks like it has brass rings in it?
Anyone else ever noticed that?
Maybe they too used a NSR crankshaft???????????????

[Pumba]

Yes and it should be attached to their helmet by a rope so the weight swings around like a pendulum.... :lol:

You have the idea

[Grumph]

Yes and it should be attached to their helmet by a rope so the weight swings around like a pendulum.... :lol:

Nah...clipped around the testiculars.....

[Yow Ling]

Nah...clipped around the testiculars.....

You might have to wait a year or two for some of the young uns

[F5 Dave]

. .


so are you saying this years F4 GP was won by a 50???
hope it was overbored above 51cc...

No no. I mean (now that I'm not typing on a phone) the Derbi GPR or Senda is a road legal bike built as a 50, not sure who made the engine for them. they later changed to the Minarelli AM6 like everyone else.

The F5 bike is like this. The F4 has an aftermarket 'road' based (whatever that means) 80 kit on it & perhaps some extra stroke on Daves bike compared to Nats. If the premise is that aftermarket but road based is legal then it is legal. I'd tend to think it is more a performance part so I'm uncomfortable with it. But it isn't a competition part so it is within the rules.

These are sold to kids to bolt them onto their 50 & ride around pouring low octane gas & forecourt 2-stroke & survive. They aren't a race part.
There are of course companies that also make race barrels for them.

[wobbly]

I cant be buggered reading this whole thread, but my take on the whole bucket rules scenario is this.
If the 100cc watercooled rule is kept in place as the only basic stipulation, then the whole 2T thing becomes much more viable to way more people.
You then have a HUGE choice of cheap engines to choose from, and aftermarket or road or race parts it all makes no odds as starting with an 85
you will have to bore and or stroke it - or if its a 125 you will at the very least have to sleeve it.
All the other parts such as ignitions,carbs, pipes, rods etc are all freely and cheaply available - but even with the most expensive choice of base engine,say a 125GP rotary valve Aprilia RSA
you will still have to sleeve it down.
Thus the performance will ultimately come back to how competently the tuning was done - and the RSA done by a guy with a huge chequebook and bugger all knowledge will still be slower
than say an engine based on a MX85 bored out with Ignitech and a trick pipe and real good porting.
And in the end the RSA may never be the best choice as everything is huge to enable 50Hp at 14000 and "fixing" all of the issues just simply may not reap the best result.
And NO I am not saying this as I want or need more work, I dont - so forget about ringing me to have one done.

[steamroller]

and what does that matter ? you ride a 2 stroke diffent to a 4? you get use to it!!! my first race i ever won was on a rs125 in the f3 class after regan broke his arm in the morning , i had neven riden one before was on a nc24 then .. after 3 races on it i just changed my WAY OF RIDING ...NO BIG DEAL! no engine breaking ..cool . PS 8 BIKES WENT PAST ME IN EVERY STRATE. and realy what i just put means shit all..

OMG you cant not do that what about the spread what about the curve may be its the top end power

[jasonu]

Yeah, it would be so awesome, think of all the hot motors running around and performance potential limited to 30HP

What do you mean by 'performance potential limited to 30HP'? Is someone going to supply a mobile dyno at the tracks to verify this?
There is already a shit load of 'hot motors running around'.
Not having a go at you personally but over the years I have seen a lot of 'proper race bike' guys show up to buckets with the idea that it is a bit of a joke and they are going to clean up. Bayden Sprozens comes to mind. Maybe the rules don't quite suit as to be at the pointy end you have to put in some hard yards first ie develop a good machine and if a motor that developed good hp out of the box ie MX85 (and weighed buggar all compared to current legal offerings and no one has said much about that point) could be made legal for the class then that is a fast track to being competitive and too bad for the developers that have already put in those hard yards.

[chrisc]

You still have to put the engine in a frame, set the bike up, make the exhaust fit, tune it, blah blah blah in order to compete. Whilst I agree it might slightly help those looking for an easy way in, to speak as if this will now allow a competitive, easy to set up bike on the grid for any joe to start dominating instantly is exaggeration. Only those willing to put in the hard effort would see any reward from this. Shit most won't even finish the engine swap!

I still maintain that if this rule was passed, the percentage take up would be minimal in the grand scheme of things. Most people just want an easy, reliable, fairly competitive FXR to have some fun on.

[Sketchy_Racer]

What do you mean by 'performance potential limited to 30HP'? Is someone going to supply a mobile dyno at the tracks to verify this?
There is already a shit load of 'hot motors running around'.
Not having a go at you personally but over the years I have seen a lot of 'proper race bike' guys show up to buckets with the idea that it is a bit of a joke and they are going to clean up. Bayden Sprozens comes to mind. Maybe the rules don't quite suit as to be at the pointy end you have to put in some hard yards first ie develop a good machine and if a motor that developed good hp out of the box ie MX85 (and weighed buggar all compared to current legal offerings and no one has said much about that point) could be made legal for the class then that is a fast track to being competitive and too bad for the developers that have already put in those hard yards.

When I say performance potential I mean that the limiting capacity to restrict motors to that HP. If a MX85 has the same power per litre as a RS125 it would have 28HP. Tuning a motor to that level is no easy feat.

No offence taken and I can see where you are coming from in terms of people tuning up. Some do and want to change it all, but usually their agenda is genuine in the fact that they want to "improve" buckets. I'm sure Sloan Frost is an advocate for 85s because he has MotoX background and knows the motors. Not because he wants to buy an off the shelf GP motor for buckets. While I haven't been around buckets for long in terms of the origin of buckets ( I was but a twinkle in my fathers eye) I have been in buckets since 2002. I started on an old K100 kawi then had one of the first FXR150s back then (much to peoples disgust) then for the last 4 years or so I have had a MB100. I love my 2Ts I really dont want a toyota FXR150 but I am also sick and tired of my shitty MB100 giving up the ghost. Snapped rods, split pistons and more holed pistons than I care to admit and to top it off now I have bent cases. I want a reliable 2T like the 4 stroke lads have reliable 4Ts


You still have to put the engine in a frame, set the bike up, make the exhaust fit, tune it, blah blah blah in order to compete. Whilst I agree it might slightly help those looking for an easy way in, to speak as if this will now allow a competitive, easy to set up bike on the grid for any joe to start dominating instantly is exaggeration. Only those willing to put in the hard effort would see any reward from this. Shit most won't even finish the engine swap!

I still maintain that if this rule was passed, the percentage take up would be minimal in the grand scheme of things. Most people just want an easy, reliable, fairly competitive FXR to have some fun on.

Swapping engines is a moot point when talking 2T buckets, unless you feel like racing in stock GP125 TF125.... chassis you will have to do an engine fitment to a more suitable chassis.

[chrisc]

Swapping engines is a moot point when talking 2T buckets, unless you feel like racing in stock GP125 TF125.... chassis you will have to do an engine fitment to a more suitable chassis.

That was the point I was trying to make, however badly I made it. You still have to put a lot of effort into building it up to being a good engine and chassis combination (and also ride the bloody thing). Just letting in the 85s won't change that, unlike letting in FXRs which meant a fairly competitive (comparably) complete bike right off the bat. Many/arguably most bucket racers just want to just on and ride.

[CHOPPA]

Do these little 85 engine need an air boot? Could I just put a pod filter straight on the carb?

[Bert]

Do these little 85 engine need an air boot? Could I just put a pod filter straight on the carb?

No filter at all Chopper.
Unless your planning on going off road.
Though re jetting would be required.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Do these little 85 engine need an air boot? Could I just put a pod filter straight on the carb?

I'm running mine with nothing. Don't use a pod filter they will suck all your precious power away.

[TZ350]

How about a table.



<tbody>

4 stroke
2 stroke


ace tuners
well catered for
well catered for


not tuners
FXR's galore
???

</tbody>


Legal 2 stroke engines that are the equivalent of a standard FXR.

There are way more 2 strokes on Tradenme than FXR150's. I only did the Suzuki's and got bored about half way through, someone else can do the other makes.

Clearly if there are this many new and secondhand legal bikes on Trademe then there must be a lot of serviceable engines lying about.

These farm/trail bikes are 12-14 or so rwhp std same as a std FXR and they can be developed to mid 20's no problem. The ESE thread has all the info you need and you will learn a few things and pickup a skill or two along the way.

A TS/TF125 is the engine Rick peddles and with low 20's hp he is right up there at the sharp end. There is nothing special about the rod/bigend/piston or any other components Rick uses, its all simple (mostly original) stuff, anyone could do it.

297322

Rick is carrying his :first: number one North Island plate on his RS framed air cooled Suzuki TS/TF125 2T farm bike engine and is leading the pack of mostly highly modified FXR engines in special frames.

MX85's don't level the playing field they represent a significant starting point advantage over whats currently legal to run and still in plentiful supply.

The only leveling of the playing field I can see is an MX85 allows someone to skip the basic steps of having to take a 12-14hp unit and develop some front running power from it.

To be a winner at Buckets, not only do you have to be a good rider, part of the challenge of Bucket racing is to be peddling something competitive that was made from a bucket of s....t or at least washed the cow dung of it first.

There is nothing running at the pointy end of Buckets that is std, so for those that want to use a MX85 to level the playing field with the development work done by others, stop being a baby and get with building your own hp like the other front running Buckateers do.

297318

Get with the program and grab yourself a 2T engine from here:- http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-697985430.htm

TS125 complete bike good nick $1,200 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/classic-vintage/auction-706849934.htm

TF125 complete bike good nick $1,300 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-729353050.htm

297316

Wrecking TF/TS and other farm bikes ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/wrecking-bikes/auction-732020815.htm

TS125 complete bike $595 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/engine-components/auction-731319028.htm

Suzuki GT125 twin $171 at the moment ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/wrecking-bikes/auction-731130670.htm

TF125 complete bike $1000 current bid $260 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/wrecking-bikes/auction-731130670.htm

297317

Farm Bikes Galore ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-697985430.htm

TF125 $1,499 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-697985430.htm

New Mud Bugs (TF125's) $3,995 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-538591527.htm

TF125 Complete bike ready for work $1,500 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-622154457.htm

TF125 $1,995 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-622154457.htm

TF125 $1,795 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-636697790.htm

TF125 complete bike $400 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dual-purpose/auction-730948807.htm

TF125 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-610839713.htm

TF125 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-551934102.htm

TF125 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-616603070.htm

TF mudbug complete bike $800 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-722284387.htm

TF125 New ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-572265977.htm

TF125 complete bike $1500 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-695530366.htm

TF125 complete bike $600 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-695530366.htm

Mudbug ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-698278501.htm

Another 125 Mudbug ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-707928886.htm

TF125 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-707877452.htm

TF125 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-726283595.htm

TF125 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-716542723.htm

TF125 complete bike $995 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-728435395.htm

TF125 $1000 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-727780513.htm

There are another 4 pages of "Suzuki 125" to trawl through on Trademe but I can't be bothered.

Plenty of bikes so the need for MX85's to rescue two strokes in Buckets looks to be a bit premature.

[steamroller]

Legal 2 stroke engines that are the equivalent of a standard FXR.
....

Your bang on there rob

[wobbly]

But the other point I forgot to add re the MX80/85 thing is what are the rules actually trying to achieve.
Get more 2Ts into a bucket field, or just get more " people " involved in the sport, or what ?
Thing is that it would be very easy to shove a small MX engine in a bucket frame,with dead stock pipe etc and have a hell of alot of fun without investing a shitload of knowledge,time,cash.
Then there is the opportunity to go out to 100cc with all manner of mods, if the punter had the desired knowledge ,time,cash.
But going the other way, from 125MX, back to 100cc will always involve plenty of knowledge,time,cash, just like it is now with 125 aircooled.
Depends on how far we want to go in trying to keep the 2T alive against the 4T scourge.

[TZ350]

But the other point I forgot to add re the MX80/85 thing is what are the rules actually trying to achieve.
Get more 2Ts into a bucket field, or just get more " people " involved in the sport, or what ?

At the moment I think F4 grids are bigger than any other class, but if the need is to involve even more people in the sport, then getting the MX kids and their MX85's involved makes sense, although I don't think we need to look at that yet but if its to whack the 4T's then your proposed 100cc unlimited rule looks very very interesting.

[Bert]

But the other point I forgot to add re the MX80/85 thing is what are the rules actually trying to achieve.
Get more 2Ts into a bucket field, or just get more " people " involved in the sport, or what ?

Both in my perspective.


Thing is that it would be very easy to shove a small MX engine in a bucket frame,with dead stock pipe etc and have a hell of alot of fun without investing a shitload of knowledge,time,cash.

Bingo - Total agree with that statement.


Then there is the opportunity to go out to 100cc with all manner of mods, if the punter had the desired knowledge ,time,cash.
But going the other way, from 125MX, back to 100cc will always involve plenty of knowledge,time,cash, just like it is now with 125 aircooled.
Depends on how far we want to go in trying to keep the 2T alive against the 4T scourge.

nope; keep the 85 as 85 only.
In my view this was an addition to the set of current rules (io.e. no changes to them).
Sleeving MX125's to 100s would have the potential to out perform anything currently constructed.

but maybe you are being more subtle

[Sketchy_Racer]

Legal 2 stroke engines that are the equivalent of a standard FXR.

There are way more 2 strokes on Tradenme than FXR150's. I only did the Suzuki's and got bored about half way through, someone else can do the other makes.

*SNIP*

Plenty of bikes so the need for MX85's to rescue two strokes in Buckets looks to be a bit premature.

Well, I have to say that I can't argue with the fact that there are a lot of the TF125s available, and agree that Ricks bike is a very good package in terms of a bike, it's got a great chassis and great power.

But I do find a little bit of irony that it suggested that everyone should have to learn to be an engine tuner if they want a fast motor but it's accepted that it ok to go buy a RS chassis that handles great from the get go. I think every one should stop being so lazy and read a thread on the internet and learn how to setup a chassis and make it handle good... ( I don't it's just a tongue in cheek point)

But suggesting that everyone should learn to be an engine tuner is not really the go, it's not everyone's interest or skill set nor should it have to be. A MX85 does not compare to a "hot" FXR150 it compares to stock FXR150 with a muffler and carb which is perfect.

Again the MX85s are not to fix buckets, nor take over buckets they are to allow a choice of a modern motor that is a good base package for those who want a 2T without learning the fundamentals of 2T engine development.

As stated earlier, MX85s or their equivalent are already here in buckets, they just have DERBI on the side of the case instead of Suzuki, Kawi etc.

[TZ350]

But suggesting that everyone should learn to be an engine tuner is not really the go, it's not everyone's interest or skill set nor should it have to be.

Your quite right, but actually this is the class for engine tuners, the essence of Buckets is building your own hp from a non competition engine. There is any manner of std production classes like F1 and F2 and the less expensive Hysong cup for those who only want to ride something store brought.

Personally I think, if someone does not want to learn about tuning and engine development this is not the class for them nor does those that enjoy the challenges it brings need to bend to accommodate them.

I think that if you want to play rider, developer in a real racing class then this is it. If you only want to ride, get a Hysong.

[Yow Ling]

So to summarise the MX85 proposal as there are about 50 versions in this thread
F4
MX engines, limited to 85cc no other restrictions
100cc 2t no other restrictions max overbore 107cc if new rulechange allowed
125cc 2t carb restriction 130cc max over size (considered dangerous in Australia)
150cc 4t no other restrictions 158.6cc max oversize

Looks good to me in this form , plenty of choices, cream always rises to the top

[Sketchy_Racer]

So to summarise the MX85 proposal as there are about 50 versions in this thread
F4
MX engines, limited to 85cc no other restrictions
100cc 2t no other restrictions max overbore 107cc if new rulechange allowed
125cc 2t carb restriction 130cc max over size (considered dangerous in Australia)
150cc 4t no other restrictions 158.6cc max oversize

Looks good to me in this form , plenty of choices, cream always rises to the top

Perfect!

10char

[TZ350]

So to summarise the MX85 proposal as there are about 50 versions in this thread
F4
MX engines, limited to 85cc no other restrictions
100cc 2t no other restrictions max overbore 107cc if new rulechange allowed
125cc 2t carb restriction 130cc max over size (considered dangerous in Australia)
150cc 4t no other restrictions 158.6cc max oversize

Looks good to me in this form , plenty of choices, cream always rises to the top

Makes more sense when you see it laid out.

And I could buy into this.

F4

MX engines, limited to 85cc no other restrictions

Non competition based engines.
100cc 2t no other restrictions max overbore 107cc if new rulechange allowed
125cc 2t 24mm carb no other restriction 135cc max over size to allow for 2mm OS so that all 125's get the 4 common 0.5mm re bore steps.
150cc 4t no other restrictions 158.6cc max oversize ... in fairness, over sizes need to be looked at here too.

[Drew]

So to summarise the MX85 proposal as there are about 50 versions in this thread
F4
MX engines, limited to 85cc no other restrictions
100cc 2t no other restrictions max overbore 107cc if new rulechange allowed
125cc 2t carb restriction 130cc max over size (considered dangerous in Australia)
150cc 4t no other restrictions 158.6cc max oversize

Looks good to me in this form , plenty of choices, cream always rises to the top
Where were you twenty pages ago? That's simple and succinct, (which makes typing 'simple' a wasted effort...and this too...and that...oh Christ this is ridiculous).

[Mental Trousers]

Legal 2 stroke engines that are the equivalent of a standard FXR.

There are way more 2 strokes on Tradenme than FXR150's. I only did the Suzuki's and got bored about half way through, someone else can do the other makes.

Clearly if there are this many new and secondhand legal bikes on Trademe then there must be a lot of serviceable engines lying about.

These farm/trail bikes are 12-14 or so rwhp std same as a std FXR and they can be developed to mid 20's no problem. The ESE thread has all the info you need and you will learn a few things and pickup a skill or two along the way.

A TS/TF125 is the engine Rick peddles and with low 20's hp he is right up there at the sharp end. There is nothing special about the rod/bigend/piston or any other components Rick uses, its all simple (mostly original) stuff, anyone could do it.


Sorry but you seem to have missed the bit about not being tuners.

I'm a system admin but no matter how well I document things your average person couldn't even get close to what I do. Just because the documentation gives you exact details about how to do things doesn't mean you're capable of being a sys admin. Likewise not everyone can learn to tune engines no matter how basic it is or how well documented.

Whether it's being a sys admin or tuning 2T engines there's a certain mindset, background knowledge and skill set required before you can even start to think of doing either.

EDIT TZ350 and I were obviously writing replies at the same time. See http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/166789-The-cheater-MX85-argument-I-might-be-changing-my-mind?p=1130724010#post1130724010 for his counter to this

Also, simply getting people involved and racing gets them on the path to tuning engines.


But suggesting that everyone should learn to be an engine tuner is not really the go, it's not everyone's interest or skill set nor should it have to be. A MX85 does not compare to a "hot" FXR150 it compares to stock FXR150 with a muffler and carb which is perfect.

Again the MX85s are not to fix buckets, nor take over buckets they are to allow a choice of a modern motor that is a good base package for those who want a 2T without learning the fundamentals of 2T engine development.


Same thing said a different way.



But the other point I forgot to add re the MX80/85 thing is what are the rules actually trying to achieve.
Get more 2Ts into a bucket field, or just get more " people " involved in the sport, or what ?

Both in my perspective.


Thing is that it would be very easy to shove a small MX engine in a bucket frame,with dead stock pipe etc and have a hell of alot of fun without investing a shitload of knowledge,time,cash.

Bingo - Total agree with that statement.


I agree with both of those as well.

EDIT

So to summarise the MX85 proposal as there are about 50 versions in this thread
F4
MX engines, limited to 85cc no other restrictions
100cc 2t no other restrictions max overbore 107cc if new rulechange allowed
125cc 2t carb restriction 130cc max over size (considered dangerous in Australia)
150cc 4t no other restrictions 158.6cc max oversize

Looks good to me in this form , plenty of choices, cream always rises to the top

Yay!!

[TZ350]

F4 rules I would like to see:-

MX engines, limited to 85cc no other restrictions

100cc 2t no other restrictions max overbore 110cc to allow for all the common makes of 2T to use the KX100 52mm piston as 107 only allows the Honda MB100 to use it.

Non Competition engine based.

125cc 2t 24mm carb no other restrictions 138cc (10%) max over size. allows for the 4 common 0.5mm over bore steps.

150cc 4 valve 4Ts (10% max oversize)

200cc 2 valve 4Ts (10% max oversize)

[husaberg]

F4 rules I would like to see are:-

MX engines, limited to 85cc no other restrictions

100cc 2t no other restrictions max overbore 110cc to allow for all makes of 2T to use the KX100 52mm piston as 107 only allows the MB100 to use it.

Non Competition engine based.

125cc 2t 24mm carb no other restrictions 138cc (10%) max over size. allows for the 4 common 0.5mm over bore steps.

150cc 4 valve 4Ts (10% max oversize)

200cc 2 valve 4Ts (10% max oversize)

This is looking betterer with maybe the parts to sort as well.
125 2t air cooled you mean 24mm carb.......

[TZ350]

This is looking betterer with maybe the parts to sort as well.
125 2t air cooled you mean 24mm carb.......

I was just thinking NC (non competition) 125 2T but may be NC air cooled no other restriction and NC 125 2T water cooled with a suitable carb restriction.

Thoughts.....

Maybe by the time for the next rule submissions we could have a well thrashed out Bucket application that is supported by pretty much everyone.

[TZ350]

Sorry but you seem to have missed the bit about not being tuners....not everyone can learn to tune engines no matter how basic it is or how well documented....simply getting people involved and racing gets them on the path to tuning engines.

My post showed there were plenty of good std reliable readily available and legal 2T's to be had without going to MX85's.

And I see the ESE thread as less about documentation and more about insights into the science and art of 2T tuning, things for the practitioner to absorb and apply in their own way.

Participation in Buckets has always accommodated those who starting out lacked basic tuning knowledge and mechanical skills but racing success there does not accommodate those that do not want to or can't learn or don't want to make the effort and that is how it should be, there are other classes for that.

But I am beginning to see how the proposed MX85 thing could help get people started and maybe hooked on 2t's.

[Drew]

Participation in Buckets has always accommodated those who starting out lacked basic tuning knowledge and mechanical skills but racing success there does not accommodate those that do not want to or can't learn or don't want to make the effort and that is how it should be, there are other classes for that.

You have built a potential weapon. You don't ride it though. Are you saying Av can't have another go untill she fully grasps the way it is built?

Doesn't leave a lot of room for me. I enjoy the engineering of the bike. Setting up geometry and suspension, and trying to lose weight from the machine. I am not inclined to do a great deal of work on motors, though I am appropriately skilled that I could learn to.

[F5 Dave]

F4 rules I would like to see:-

MX engines, limited to 85cc no other restrictions

100cc 2t no other restrictions max overbore 110cc to allow for all the common makes of 2T to use the KX100 52mm piston as 107 only allows the Honda MB100 to use it.

Non Competition engine based.

125cc 2t 24mm carb no other restrictions 138cc (10%) max over size. allows for the 4 common 0.5mm over bore steps.

150cc 4 valve 4Ts (10% max oversize)

200cc 2 valve 4Ts (10% max oversize)
52mm piston only takes many engines to 106.something, not just the Hondas

[TZ350]

52mm piston only takes many engines to 106.something, not just the Hondas


297323 Here is a 1mm OS KT100 piston.


Sure 52 gives 106, but don't these pistons come in 52+somethings out to 2mm OS?

Suzuki TF/TS/GP100 50mm bore 50mm stroke.

50mm bore 50mm stroke (5x5x3.1416x5)/4 = 98.18cc

52mm bore 50mm stroke (5.2x5.2x3.1416x5)/4 = 106cc

53mm bore 50mm stroke (5.3x5.3x3.1416x5)/4 = 110cc


Ok I have named the three most common engines and they don't fit the 106 limit with all the oversize KT100 pistons available, your turn now, name some other common engine that would only be 106cc with oversize KT100 pistons in it, may be a 1mm or better yet 2mm OS piston.

[Yow Ling]

297323 Here is a 1mm OS KT100 piston.


Sure 52 gives 106, but don't these pistons come in 52+somethings out to 2mm OS?

Suzuki TF/TS/GP100 50mm bore 50mm stroke.

50mm bore 50mm stroke (5x5x3.1416x5)/4 = 98.18cc

52mm bore 50mm stroke (5.2x5.2x3.1416x5)/4 = 106cc

53mm bore 50mm stroke (5.3x5.3x3.1416x5)/4 = 110cc


Ok I have named the three most common engines and they don't fit the 106 limit with all the oversize KT100 pistons available, your turn now, name some other common engine that would only be 106cc with oversize KT100 pistons in it, may be a 1mm or better yet 2mm OS piston.

Why would you want to run a 100 aircooled when you can run a 100 watercooled?
There are way more oversize steps on a kt100 not just 0.25mm steps like bikes.

The question was do we want 85cc mx engines , not do you want 4t 200s and 10% oversizes

the maths above is all wrong as suzuki stroke is 50.6mm

[husaberg]

Why would you want to run a 100 aircooled when you can run a 100 watercooled?
There are way more oversize steps on a kt100 not just 0.25mm steps like bikes.

The question was do we want 85cc mx engines , not do you want 4t 200s and 10% oversizes

the maths above is all wrong as suzuki stroke is 50.6mm

I think most of the major 125's and 100 are 50.6mm.


I was just thinking NC (non competition) 125 2T but may be NC air cooled no other restriction and NC 125 2T water cooled with a suitable carb restriction.

Thoughts.....

Maybe by the time for the next rule submissions we could have a well thrashed out Bucket application that is supported by pretty much everyone.

I don't quite go along with unlimited carb 125 air cooled cause they have already shown 30HP on a 24mm carb.
Being air cooled is not enough of a restriction. it just limits their ability to retain peak performance in longer races.
the 24mm carb rule has worked well. So far
I would like to see liquid cooled non comp 125's (Maybe for selfselving reasons) but they would have to be limited to around 30hp somehow.....
Maybe Wobs exhaust restrictor idea could work, on the LC125's with a carb limit to keep them 30hp ish.

The parts issues also need to be sorted before MX85's come in.........

[TZ350]

the maths above is all wrong as suzuki stroke is 50.6mm

Maybe true and I thought so too, but I got my figure for the 50mm stroke from the official Suzuki GP125 service manual. If you have a better source do tell as I think the 100 is the same, likewise the TF and TS.

297336



Why would you want to run a 100 aircooled when you can run a 100 watercooled? There are way more oversize steps on a kt100 not just 0.25mm steps like bikes.


Too true, but like the old aircooled MB100's there are a few TS/TF/GP and a few RG 100cc engines around, or at least the parts for them. And we would like the same options for pistons as the MB boys.


There are way more oversize steps on a kt100 not just 0.25mm steps like bikes.

I understand this, but if people are using the KT100 piston then they can go 2mm OS.


The question was do we want 85cc mx engines , not do you want 4t 200s and 10% oversizes

True but I am allowed to express my opinion and now that we are opening the Bucket rules Pandoras box lets get it all out there.

[Sketchy_Racer]

A bit off the topic but relating to the 85. I have two videos from when I had the MB100 and then 85.

RM85


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ96gHgvklI


And then the MB100 (starts at 1:05)


http://youtu.be/QGlem2bzDLQ

[Bert]

F4 rules I would like to see:-

MX engines, limited to 85cc no other restrictions

100cc 2t no other restrictions max overbore 110cc

Non Competition engine based.

125cc 2t 24mm carb no other restrictions 138cc (10%) max over size.

150cc 4 valve 4Ts (10% max oversize)

200cc 2 valve 4Ts (10% max oversize)

I actually almost agree,

10% oversizes.
I think that gives enough fair options to everyone.
(I have to say I never really agreed with the over sizes given to the 150cc 4T. Anyone serious will take the hit and bore to maximum oversize anyway. sleeves are cheap).

but I'd be keeping the:

MX engines, limited to 85cc no other restrictions

Non competition derived engine, including the following:
transmission, blablabla.. (same as last 10year)
Exception of Pistons, pipes, blabla...(same as last 10year)

100cc 2t no other restrictions max overbore 110cc to allow for all the common makes of 2T to use the KX100 52mm piston as 107 only allows the Honda MB100 to use it.
125cc 2t 24mm Carb Restriction (10% max oversize). Aircooled
150cc 4 valve 4Ts (10% max oversize)
180cc 2valve 4Ts (10% max oversize). Aircooled

if you want to run watercooled engines (or competition derived engines or components), you have to run the smaller size.

Thermal constraint will level the playing field during a race; and it will make things interesting tactically during longer events...

[Mental Trousers]

A bit off the topic but relating to the 85. I have two videos from when I had the MB100 and then 85.

RM85

...


And then the MB100 (starts at 1:05)

...

I know which one sounds better.

[husaberg]

I actually almost agree,

10% oversizes.
I think that gives enough fair options to everyone.
(I have to say I never really agreed with the over sizes given to the 150cc 4T. Anyone serious will take the hit and bore to maximum oversize anyway. sleeves are cheap).

but I'd be keeping the:

Non competition derived engine, including the following:
transmission, blablabla.
125cc 2t 24mm Carb Restriction (10% max oversize). Aircooled
180cc 2valve 4Ts (10% max oversize). Aircooled

if you want to run watercooled engines (or competition derived engines or components), you have to run the smaller size.
Exception of Pistons...
Thermal constraint will level the playing field during a race; and it will make things interesting tactically during longer events...

what are you thinking re the restriction on a LC125? or just only to 100cc?

and the parts what of the parts
http://www.raybendici.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/think_of_the_children.jpg

[Bert]

what are you thinking re the restriction on a LC125? or just only to 100cc?

and the parts what of the parts


na.
no LC125's...
Everyone have been crying about 85cc, why would you allow a LC125??:brick:
Name a common LC125 engine?
(I"ll start: Aprillia RS125 - not common)...
maybe this conversation should be in another tread....

Parts.
What parts? Same rules as current; no need to change anything with the current configuration.
might as well keep the baby and some of the bath water...


Same rules as current with the extension for:
10% oversize.
I think that gives enough fair options to everyone.

but I'd be keeping the:

MX engines, limited to 85cc no other restrictions

Non competition derived engine,
Following components (MUST NOT BE DERIVED FROM A COMPETITION ENGINE):
transmission, blablabla.. (same as last 10-25years)
Open:
Pistons, pipes, ignition..blabla...(same as last 10-25year)

100cc 2t (Max 10% oversize). Water or Aircooled
125cc 2t 24mm Carb Restriction (10% max oversize). Aircooled only
[B]150cc 4 valve 4Ts (10% max oversize) Water or Aircooled
180cc 2valve 4Ts (10% max oversize). Aircooled only

if you want to run watercooled engines (or competition derived engines or components), you have to run the smaller size.

The whole thing has been about fair modification and potential ramifications of introducing MX85 engines into the current class.
Thermal constraint will level the playing field during a race; and it will make things interesting tactically during longer events...

[Yow Ling]

http://www.raybendici.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/think_of_the_children.jpg

297346
Dont worry we are onto it.

[husaberg]

na.
no LC125's...
everyone have been crying about 85cc, why would you allow a LC125??:brick:

Parts.
What parts? Same rules as current; no need to change anything with the current configuration.
might as well keep the baby and some of the bath water...


Same rules as current with the extension for:
10% oversize across the board,
180cc 2Valve 4T

and entry of 85cc...


OK so let me get this clear on one hand We want to let in MX85 so people can have cheap access to available engines that have cheap high quality parts........
BUT
For the current legal bikes... Hell no they are no allowed to use the same bearing and conrods even though they are cheaper better and more available............. it seems like a silly idea to me..........like getting this guy to babysit your kids........

http://static.sportsvibe.co.uk/assets/Uploads/_resampled/SetWidth250-rolf-harris.jpeg

[Bert]

OK so let me get this clear on one hand We want to let in MX85 so people can have cheap access to available engines that have cheap high quality parts........
BUT
For the current legal bikes... Hell no they are no allowed to use the same bearing and conrods even though they are cheaper better and more available............. it seems like a silly idea to me..........

Different conversation; different set of rules & considerations Husa - start a new tread and seek feedback?

Personally, I don't really see a problem with the current mainstream compliant engines and availability of quality parts and equal of less that the MX85 parts (as Rob has already pointed out).
Ok. I've been caught out on my "parts are cheap; thus let them in statement"///

yes I'll admit that the number of suppliers are limited - conversation and exploration into this issue is needed...


One off specials... well that's life...


a MX85 will likely need to be cheaper for parts... different conversation...

[Henk]

My biggest objection to this concept all along is that if we allow 85mxers we should have a long hard look at the parts anyway. If an 85 can have the dirt bike gearbox why shouldn't something else.

The thing that has me questioning it now is that by all accounts bugger all people would build one anyway, it isn't going to be the saviour of a class that seems to be gaining numbers at the moment anyway, as it has been for the past five years or so that I have been involved.
If this was to be introduced I'd suggest leaving everything else alone and limiting it by capacity only, anything else is too hard to enforce.
The other concept I've heard mentioned lately is to allow 125 MX engines, possibly as an F4.1, in some ways that makes more sense to me but opens another huge can of worms.

[husaberg]

Different conversation; different set of rules & considerations Husa - start a new tread and seek feedback?

Personally, I don't really see a problem with the current mainstream engines and availability of quality parts and equal of less that the MX85 parts (as Rob has already pointed out).

One off specials... well that's life...


a MX85 will likely need to be cheaper for parts... different conversation...

No... no.... no... Brent same conversation, same issue, same thread, for the reasons i spelled out above, opening up to Mx85's makes the current rules untenable......
Brent for instance in F4 and F5 it is against the rules to use a CR125 conrod, which is nearly a swap for a MB100 and has a silver plated bearing.
it is cheaper better anss designed for high speed use so safer.....

For my build i had to hunt extra long for the rod length (i wanted to use) and stay legal i could have just used a MX one... far far cheaper and easier to get.
yet a MX85 can use a mx rod and bearing. Am i the only one to see an issue here.
I am only talking bearings conrods clutches cranks and so forth, not cylinders, heads.......

[chrisc]

100cc 2t (Max 10% oversize).[B] Water or Aircooled
125cc 2t 24mm Carb Restriction (10% max oversize). Aircooled only
150cc 4 valve 4Ts (10% max oversize) Water or Aircooled
180cc 2valve 4Ts (10% max oversize). Aircooled only

Bert, the bold bit above should be deleted. Like the current rules, the cooling restriction applies to 125 2t. This specifically states air cooling which excludes any other type of cooling including oil cooling.

If the above rules were run, FXRs would be illegal as they are oil cooled. Best to just exclude any mention of cooling except for 125 2t (aircooled only) and for 180cc 2V 4Ts (aircooled only), like so:

100cc 2t (Max 10% oversize).
125cc 2t 24mm Carb Restriction (10% max oversize). Air cooled only
150cc 4 valve 4Ts (10% max oversize)
180cc 2valve 4Ts (10% max oversize). Air cooled only

[goose8]

My biggest objection to this concept all along is that if we allow 85mxers we should have a long hard look at the parts anyway. If an 85 can have the dirt bike gearbox why shouldn't something else.

The thing that has me questioning it now is that by all accounts bugger all people would build one anyway, it isn't going to be the saviour of a class that seems to be gaining numbers at the moment anyway, as it has been for the past five years or so that I have been involved.
If this was to be introduced I'd suggest leaving everything else alone and limiting it by capacity only, anything else is too hard to enforce.
The other concept I've heard mentioned lately is to allow 125 MX engines, possibly as an F4.1, in some ways that makes more sense to me but opens another huge can of worms.Sounds good mx125 motors open but only on kart tracks would be heaps of fun big high sides would be the norm. But it would be a awesome ride I'm keen as

[Bert]

No... no.... no... Brent same conversation, same issue, same thread, for the reasons i spelled out above, opening up to Mx85's makes the current rules untenable......
Brent for instance in F4 and F5 it is against the rules to use a CR125 conrod, which is nearly a swap for a MB100 and has a silver plated bearing.
it is cheaper better anss designed for high speed use so safer.....
Not untenable, maybe compromised...
Yes those lucky Suzuki and Yamaha engine builders have seen the merge of MX vs. non-MX rod kits (and bearings) in many cases. Or have plenty of road convertible options.

I'm assuming you state safer due to the longer life span...
Rather than builder pushing capabilities of engines as a whole..
That is part of the art of tuning as well; building with in capabilities.

But I'm actually on the fence on this topic (directly related to the fact above).
So my view is that is is a topic for another discussion and proposal.

Transmission nope.. And I mean gearbox (just to be clear)..


Bert, the bold bit above should be deleted. Like the current rules, the cooling restriction applies to 125 2t. This specifically states air cooling which excludes any other type of cooling including oil cooling.

If the above rules were run, FXRs would be illegal as they are oil cooled. Best to just exclude any mention of cooling except for 125 2t (aircooled only) and for 180cc 2V 4Ts (aircooled only), like so:

100cc 2t (Max 10% oversize).
125cc 2t 24mm Carb Restriction (10% max oversize). Air cooled only
150cc 4 valve 4Ts (10% max oversize)
180cc 2valve 4Ts (10% max oversize). Air cooled only

Very valid point Chris.




For my build i had to hunt extra long for the rod length (i wanted to use) and stay legal i could have just used a MX one... far far cheaper and easier to get.
yet a MX85 can use a mx rod and bearing. Am i the only one to see an issue here.
I am only talking bearings conrods clutches cranks and so forth, not cylinders, heads.......

Specials. Bum, those of us that have tried to build a special know the issues... As per comments above I do sit on the fence (and it would make my tz100 build easier, but I'm not sure if it would make it any cheaper)...

But.... Seems as it's likely to carry on in this thread: let's drive in a little further...
Maybe some of the wording in the rules should be modified (falling in line with other classes) around homologation of sorts. Maybe we shouldn't allow in engines that are not actually available in good numbers here in NZ.
It solves the conversation around issues of parts availability or checkbook racing...
Yes that change would remove my old ball (somewhat unattainable out unless in Europe /UK/Japan) from the mix... But that may be for the betterment of the class (not that I win anything)..
It would also close the door on the purchase of "road" noncomp bore up kits for 50cc....

But why the view of open clutches?
And that is a serious question, it something I've never really considered..

[husaberg]

Not untenable, maybe compromised...
Yes those lucky Suzuki and Yamaha engine builders have seen the merge of MX vs. non-MX rod kits (and bearings) in many cases. Or have plenty of road convertible options.


I'm assuming you state safer due to the longer life span... No safer due to durablity my father still limps from a rod letting go in 1986........

Rather than builder pushing capabilities of engines as a whole..
That is part of the art of tuning as well; building with in capabilities. Brent this agrument has been used to let in the MX85's
So its untenable because it is on one hand saying open it up to allow competition engines, cause it will be cheaper, more freely available, then on the other saying no stay the same for the rest.......


So my view is that is is a topic for another discussion and proposal.
If the rules are to be changing the this stuff has to be sorted first because it is part of the same reasoning


Transmission nope.. And I mean gearbox (just to be clear)..
But the clutch is part of the transmission is it not.
Which makes STD MX clutch plate illegal.
Remember Robs want to convert his basket from the silly inside out springs held by pins he could have used a basket or pressure plate of a 79 RM125 but couldn't cause they are against the rules. he couldn't use the OEM MX plates either.....
STD OEM plates of a CR80 are better than MB100 as they are pulp not paper... again illegal......Yeah while i am sure he might be able to find some obscure model that would suit and maybe find in the EBC catalog that they list the plates for both but why should he have too if the MX85 goes in for being more available and cheaper why not fix the reasons that some of the other stuff is not as freely available and cheaper



Specials. Bum, those of us that have tried to build a special know the issues... As per comments above I do sit on the fence (and it would make my tz100 build easier, but I'm not sure if it would make it any cheaper)...

But.... Seems as it's likely to carry on in this thread: let's drive in a little further...
Maybe some of the wording in the rules should be modified (falling in line with other classes) around homologation of sorts. Maybe we shouldn't allow in engines that are not actually available in good numbers here in NZ.
It solves the conversation around issues of parts availability or checkbook racing...
..
Yes that change would remove my old ball (somewhat unattainable out unless in Europe /UK/Japan) from the mix... But that may be for the betterment of the class (not that I win anything)..
It would also close the door on the purchase of "road" noncomp bore up kits for 50cc....
Not really.. should mine and Brens NSR125 based builds be banned cause gee that would keep the racing cheaper for me:bleh: or you who have invested already a fair bit of money..where to draw the line....i have no real issue with the euro kits being used

But why the view of open clutches?
And that is a serious question, it something I've never really considered..
the clutchs well it was about the plates MX ok Honda RS125 or similar not allowed.
Not that it maters as i can get a legal dry clutch anyway ..imagine the hater if someone turned up with one of those........

I should point out when i say illegal it is by most people interpretation of the rules

[Bert]

Ok. Some validly to your views. Maybe just clears up that side of the coin.

Well, I might swing back to the na leave everything as it is: side of the fence (for a a little bit longer).
Personally there are plenty of options available currently and the current rules are open enough to encourage those that investigate options plenty of performance solutions without breaking the rules.

The rules work and parts are available.
And under the current scheme there isn't any option of entry of a subclass (MX85) into the rules with isolating the current active riders or exposing the current active rules to extra modification...
The last thing I would want to do is compromise or isolate those people actively involved in the class or organising events.

So no addition of the 10% oversize or 180cc two valve...

It's not fair argument & what's in it for me; just keeps coming up as a wall for moving forward logically.

Like others already, the point of arguing the toss about 85cc is a waste of energy; if they can't be treated as a separate conversation..
I have a legal two and four stroke; so it makes no difference to me... Both far outweigh my capabilities, so there isn't anything in this (read introduction of MX85 or modification to the current rules) for me.
Plus I've got all the good bits I need to keep them going for a long time, maybe even enough that I might get to the stage that I can actually benefit from what I've built.. But that's going to take a long time.

[TZ350]

Am i the only one to see an issue here.
I am only talking bearings conrods clutches cranks and so forth, not cylinders, heads.......

No your not the only one, I just don't know what the answer could be.:confused:

[jasonu]

na.

Name a common LC125 engine?
...

Not common by any means but if the LC125 rule came in then Ke125 bottom end with an RG500 cylinder. I think it will pretty much bolt right on to my motor. It has better everything.

[jasonu]

Different conversation; different set of rules & considerations Husa - start a new tread and seek feedback?
a MX85 will likely need to be cheaper for parts... different conversation...

No I think this is the perfect place to discuss these points. If MX85's are allowed in these are the sorts of issues that can and will arise and now is the time to hash them out BEFORE the rules are changed.

[jasonu]

.

The thing that has me questioning it now is that by all accounts bugger all people would build one
Yes yes yes as I said earlier why change the rules to suit just a couple of people in a class that has one of the highest entry numbers in the country.

The other concept I've heard mentioned lately is to allow 125 MX engines, possibly as an F4.1, in some ways that makes more sense to me but opens another huge can of worms. Sounds like someone is havin a laugh, do they want 250 4T mx'ers as well?

10 characters

[RMS eng]

10 characters

what a shit fight,make a class for just race motors then they can do what they like.and i rode Dave Ds son 2006 RM85 a few years back in woodhill and if that had 14 HP i would eat dog shit,it had a good 18-20 HP.and if this rule for 85 MX motors is put forward i will get some one to forward a rule to let in honda CRF150R motors as they cost the same as an 85 and already make 20hp

[husaberg]

what a shit fight,make a class for just race motors then they can do what they like.and i rode Dave Ds son 2006 RM85 a few years back in woodhill and if that had 14 HP i would eat dog shit,it had a good 18-20 HP.and if this rule for 85 MX motors is put forward i will get some one to forward a rule to let in honda CRF150R motors as they cost the same as an 85 and already make 20hp

OH there in is another issue for those wanting save buckets it could end up destroying them by "fragmenting them"
yeah throw in some 125MX and 2504t as well why not......

South has the development class to compliment Buckets.

[Drew]

OH there in is another issue for those wanting save buckets it could end up destroying them by "fragmenting them"

South has the development class to compliment Buckets.This thread has run it's course I think, it's all the same stuff being said.

The simple rules list that Yow Ling (fuck I hate using people's login names) wrote out, was pretty agreeable to nearly everyone. The 85 motors would not be a threat to those people's bikes that are currently in development, but would give others an option for cheap and available parts to make a bike around.

I can't see that fragmenting the fraternity.

[Sketchy_Racer]

what a shit fight,make a class for just race motors then they can do what they like.and i rode Dave Ds son 2006 RM85 a few years back in woodhill and if that had 14 HP i would eat dog shit,it had a good 18-20 HP.and if this rule for 85 MX motors is put forward i will get some one to forward a rule to let in honda CRF150R motors as they cost the same as an 85 and already make 20hp

If it was a stock RM85, it didn't have 20hp. You can't compare what feels fast on the dirt to what is fast on the tarmac. Personally I can't see the problem with the CRF150s, they are just a hopped up CBR150 (the CBR150 might have potential being a twin cam head vs single.... )


So to summarise the MX85 proposal as there are about 50 versions in this thread
F4

MX engines, limited to 85cc no other restrictions

100cc 2t no other restrictions 10% max oversize
125cc 2t carb restriction 10% max over size (air cooled) (considered dangerous in Australia)
150cc 4t no other restrictions 10% max oversize

Looks good to me in this form , plenty of choices, cream always rises to the top

Back to this, it's easy.

As for parts for the non competition engines. I can't see the problem with running MX rods and gearbox's and parts. As long as the cases, crank webs, cylinder are from non competition motors. Making someone run around looking for a legal conrod when a MX one is 1 day away in the mail just seems daft.

[Yow Ling]

OH there in is another issue for those wanting save buckets it could end up destroying them by "fragmenting them"

South has the development class to compliment Buckets.

Actually South has

Superbikes
600,s
Superlite
125's
Clubmans
Posties Classics, bears and Development/Streetstock to compliment Buckets

Plus a special 150 2t 250 4t class at Cams

So we are well spoilt for choices, crossenter to your hearts content , bring 3 or 4 bikes if you tough enough

The Cams Junior Clubmans class has pretty flexible rules
Any 2 stroke up to 150cc, that includes rs125 honda, rs125 Aprillia, Any 2 stroke bucket (cant cross enter at the moment need to bring 2 bikes)
Any 1 or 2 cylinder 4t up to 250cc includes ninjas and cb2oo's and spare buckets. They want people to build hot rods , which hasnt happened yet.

We let any of the above clases run at our bucket meets so we dont actually need MX85s but thay interesting future option, actually we could run them in Cams Junior Clubmans and not have to worry about getting them legaled by the Fathers of bucketracing

[Yow Ling]

If it was a stock RM85, it didn't have 20hp. You can't compare what feels fast on the dirt to what is fast on the tarmac. Personally I can't see the problem with the CRF150s, they are just a hopped up CBR150 (the CBR150 might have potential being a twin cam head vs single.... )



Back to this, it's easy.

As for parts for the non competition engines. I can't see the problem with running MX rods and gearbox's and parts. As long as the cases, crank webs, cylinder are from non competition motors. Making someone run around looking for a legal conrod when a MX one is 1 day away in the mail just seems daft.
I agreeIf i found 2 rods in my shed I couldnt tell which was a mx rod and which wasnt , its like arguing MX sprocket bolt against road one they are the same thing
Just like TF and RM Rods are the same part.

[husaberg]

If it was a stock RM85, it didn't have 20hp. You can't compare what feels fast on the dirt to what is fast on the tarmac. Personally I can't see the problem with the CRF150s, they are just a hopped up CBR150 (the CBR150 might have potential being a twin cam head vs single.... )



Back to this, it's easy.

As for parts for the non competition engines. I can't see the problem with running MX rods and gearbox's and parts. As long as the cases, crank webs, cylinder are from non competition motors. Making someone run around looking for a legal conrod when a MX one is 1 day away in the mail just seems daft.

Glenn the CRF150R and he CBR150 are totally different engines, i doubt if they share a common part other than a bolt washer or o-ring.


I agree If i found 2 rods in my shed I couldnt tell which was a mx rod and which wasnt , its like arguing MX sprocket bolt against road one they are the same thing
Just like TF and RM Rods are the same part.

I agree the interpretation of the rules is daft/silly which is why i bring it up often.....

This thread has run it's course I think, it's all the same stuff being said.

The simple rules list that Yow Ling (fuck I hate using people's login names) wrote out, was pretty agreeable to nearly everyone. The 85 motors would not be a threat to those people's bikes that are currently in development, but would give others an option for cheap and available parts to make a bike around.

I can't see that fragmenting the fraternity.
People want different things its life, people agendas are all different.
I can agree on Std engine spec 85's as long as the parts are cleaned up, but for most, even though they say they want them for a easy not have to be tuned option, But no for others that is not enough...
then others suggest that the 85's would be impossible to tune to a wide power spread, which is utter horseshit.......
People keep banging on about the cheap parts... yet the current classes will not be able to benefit from this as well. Its ludicrous.
People are saying there is few options other than the 85's, Which there is.......

If people ask what are buckets, i tell them they are tuned small commuter bikes, a class where people tune bikes and race them. Its likely the cheapest form of motorbike racing...........It is a class where people use their initiative to build bikes around a framework of modifying commuter/sports bikes..........
beep beep beep beep
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_elUrqn1YH30/ScFEyOFP_CI/AAAAAAAAAk8/uVRXwCcOI3Q/s400/californiavernacular_09.jpg

[jasonu]

. Personally I can't see the problem with the CRF150s, they are just a hopped up CBR150 (the CBR150 might have potential being a twin cam head vs single.... )
.

Wrong there mate. Totally different motors. If CRF150R motors are allowed into buckets they would be unbeatable in the right hands. Full race motor.
http://www.usgpru.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8239&highlight=crf150r
http://www.usgpru.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8239&highlight=crf150r

[F5 Dave]

297323 Here is a 1mm OS KT100 piston.


Sure 52 gives 106, but don't these pistons come in 52+somethings out to 2mm OS?

Suzuki TF/TS/GP100 50mm bore 50mm stroke.

50mm bore 50mm stroke (5x5x3.1416x5)/4 = 98.18cc

52mm bore 50mm stroke (5.2x5.2x3.1416x5)/4 = 106cc

53mm bore 50mm stroke (5.3x5.3x3.1416x5)/4 = 110cc


Ok I have named the three most common engines and they don't fit the 106 limit with all the oversize KT100 pistons available, your turn now, . . . .

ok my turn. Sorry been out riding competition based oversize (72mm bore) motorcycle in rather muddy conditions.

anyhoo, if you'd been taking notes you'd see the proposed rule is 107cc. I said 106. Something on porpoise. KT pistons come in;
52.00
52.05
52.1
52.1
52.2
52.3

etc etc

.that's enough to be getting on with.

[koba]

I've struggled to keep up with this thread but I do think it is great.
Richban points out that there are plenty of active racers not reading all this but to be fair the representation is pretty good for a group debate.

I'm loving that fact that we can all thrash out an idea with (mostly) constructive input with many people involved in the class.

Almost everyone contributing to this debate is an active racer and I'm confident all have the sports best interests in mind, whichever side of the fence they are on; that's cool!

Perhaps we should canvas further?
what is the best way to do this? Mention it at events so those who actually turn up get a say?

[Drew]

I've struggled to keep up with this thread but I do think it is great.
Richban points out that there are plenty of active racers not reading all this but to be fair the representation is pretty good for a group debate.

I'm loving that fact that we can all thrash out an idea with (mostly) constructive input with many people involved in the class.

Almost everyone contributing to this debate is an active racer and I'm confident all have the sports best interests in mind, whichever side of the fence they are on; that's cool!

Perhaps we should canvas further?
what is the best way to do this? Mention it at events so those who actually turn up get a say?
That will boil down to campaigning not discussing, in a lot of cases. It might create discussion at later stages amongst those campaigned though.

[koba]

That will boil down to campaigning not discussing, in a lot of cases. It might create discussion at later stages amongst those campaigned though.

Glen has already been campaigning, I'm keen to start wider discussion from that.
Will probably mention something at the next riders briefing.
Acutely aware that not all active racers are seeing this.

[TZ350]

Glen has already been campaigning, I'm keen to start wider discussion from that. Will probably mention something at the next riders briefing. Acutely aware that not all active racers are seeing this.

To complete the picture it might be good to mention that up our way in A grade Nats 80-85cc bike is being pretty dominant.

[koba]

To complete the picture it might be good to mention that up our way in A grade Nats 80-85cc bike is being pretty dominant.

Yeah, the discussion is never going to happen properly at a briefing but I'll just point out that it is going on and provide more details to those who want to chip in.

[quallman1234]

To complete the picture it might be good to mention that up our way in A grade Nats 80-85cc Package is being pretty dominant.

10 characters

[TZ350]

297383

Here we have a water cooled 85cc (Derbi??) followed by three air cooled 2Ts, a 125cc Kawasaki farm bike, a 125cc Suzuki farm bike and a 100cc Honda commuter bike engine, all consistent front runners. The hot FXR's were all runnerups.

From todays racing at Mt Wellington, and there are still plenty of Suzuki farm bike engines available and MB100 barrels can be brought new for 20 or so dollars over the internet(for exact details check with Speedpro).

[TZ350]

To complete the picture it might be good to mention that up our way in A grade Nats 80-85cc Package is being pretty dominant.10 characters

Thanks for fixing that for me.

True, its always the package and given a good 85cc platform to start with, I expect any half decent rider could cobble something pretty competitive together without having to go to to much trouble engine wise.

[F5 Dave]

To complete the picture it might be good to mention that up our way in A grade Nats 80-85cc bike is being pretty dominant.
Pity he isn't on an mx85 or you might have had some sort of point.

[F5 Dave]

From todays racing at Mt Wellington, and there are still plenty of Suzuki farm bike engines available and MB100 barrels can be brought new for 20 or so dollars over the internet(for exact details check with Speedpro).
Yeah, we've yet to actually see those barrels materialise and $20 wasn't even close.

[TZ350]

Pity he isn't on an mx85 or you might have had some sort of point.

I am not sure what your point is but Nat demonstrates the point that 80-85cc can be very useful and I would be surprised that anybody who put their mind to it could not easily get similar good power and power spread like Nats from a MX85.

[jasonu]

If by some remote chance someone actually puts in a remit for rule change who is it that will actually make the decision either yes or no? Would that person or persons have any real knowledge about the Bucket class? Would there be a debate or would the remit include letters for and against from those involved?

[Yow Ling]

If by some remote chance someone actually puts in a remit for rule change who is it that will actually make the decision either yes or no? Would that person or persons have any real knowledge about the Bucket class? Would there be a debate or would the remit include letters for and against from those involved?

here is the process, It wont take a big group of people to get any new rule put through, because nobody stands for or against much.

http://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/default-source/regulations/how-to-make-a-rule-change-flow-chart.pdf?sfvrsn=2

[Billy]

I am not sure what your point is but Nat demonstrates the point that 80-85cc can be very useful and I would be surprised that anybody who put their mind to it could not easily get similar good power and spread from a MX85.

So,

Ive been following this thread from the outset and have found it quite interesting that there hasn't been the usual mass resistance to the idea of Competition based engines,BUT the post that stands out to me the most,Is Henks one where he raises the point "Is it really necessary,Are the fields struggling for numbers?" From what Ive read there is no need to bolster numbers and in fact there will be some who walk away if these machines are allowed entry,The post Ive quoted bothers me the most though as it appears to imply that maybe its not such a great idea as one of these machines may actually win,I mean lets be honest here,Its hardly a level playing field anyway,How many others have the resources that GPR or ESE have to build and develop their machinery?Another factor to be taken into consideration would be the fact,You can't beat cubic capacity,Therefore a 100cc watercooled engine tuned to its capacity should,In theory make more usable power than an 85 in the same state of tune,The whole idea definitely holds merit,But it certainly needs a lot more discussion,Interestingly while I was typing this out Jimmy Steadman rang,He seemed to be quite keen on the idea.

[koba]

So,

Ive been following this thread from the outset and have found it quite interesting that there hasn't been the usual mass resistance to the idea of Competition based engines,BUT the post that stands out to me the most,Is Henks one where he raises the point "Is it really necessary,Are the fields struggling for numbers?" From what Ive read there is no need to bolster numbers and in fact there will be some who walk away if these machines are allowed entry,The post Ive quoted bothers me the most though as it appears to imply that maybe its not such a great idea as one of these machines may actually win,I mean lets be honest here,Its hardly a level playing field anyway,How many others have the resources that GPR or ESE have to build and develop their machinery?Another factor to be taken into consideration would be the fact,You can't beat cubic capacity,Therefore a 100cc watercooled engine tuned to its capacity should,In theory make more usable power than an 85 in the same state of tune,The whole idea definitely holds merit,But it certainly needs a lot more discussion,Interestingly while I was typing this out Jimmy Steadman rang,He seemed to be quite keen on the idea.

Interesting.

R.E. The cubes,

Thinking as I type...


As you already know,

Older 100's are all old tech commuters, so, while they can make great power they have to do it with things like huge single exhaust ports.
Also transfer porting tends to be pretty poo, further compromising the level of tune available.

MX stuff is better and designed for a competition state of tune, better and more transfers, Inlets, Bridged exhausts, good cooling etc...

A modern road based engine, like Brent's for instance, has the potential to give the goodness of the modern tech with 100cc but is quite an undertaking compared to hotting up an old 100. Additionally it's likely to be quite a bit heavier, maybe?

If anything like this did get through I'd be very keen to get a cut off year in place to stop people buying an new KTM, it may not even help them win but it makes the sport look a lot more expensive, cheap is our selling point.


Perhaps we should seek a variety of Australian Opinions?
Both on this and their larger Aircooled 2 Valve 4 Strokes.

[Reckless]

Just a few thoughts that may or may not help??
I read to page 5 and skipped to Last page but as an old karter who ran race prepared 125's you can get damn good HP out of a smoker if you know what your doing.

So the rule restriction will be very important in your sport!!

Pipe, carb size and ignition being foremost!! Make clutches and baskets mandatory!

A performance mx kart engine 15 YEARS ago!!

Get rid of the clutch assembly completely who needs that drag on the crank aye!
We made Dog clutches for road racing where you had to be able to disengage for safety purposes.
Send the crankcase and barrel for porting to Robert Taylor to work his magic so you had torque based engine. (pretty sure he doesn't karts anymore??).
Lighten the crank. Align and balance the Crank and crankcases.
Head job: Squish, compression etc.
Modify the power valve and add boost ports
Wobbly pipe or make your own we did. But you can now download heaps of designs, including flat cutting templates, to make them yourself now)
Methanol
Motoplat ignition
Flat slide carb with custom made adjustable power jet in the back of it.

Then you add a MyChron and a laptop so you can get track sectioned maps, EGT and CHT to tune for gearing and HP.
Blow up a few engines to find where compression Vs Heat vs reliability vs HP comes in and your away.

Thats a 42 HP kart engine 15 years ago not sure how much you'd take off the that to do that to an 85cc??
But I've had a ride or two on an 85 mx bike and they are scary fast prob producing as much as a Standard 15 year old watercooled 125 was then?
I dunno been out for to long?

OK so that's it in brief!!

BAN some/all of the above (as it will creep in) and your getting somewhere!

Don't get me wrong I'm a 2stroke man though and through!
The adjustable, combined, boost port, power valve set up on my Ktm200 is a frekin brilliant and simple piece of engineering!
Smokers yes! Nothing cheaper to maintain and its do it yourself, love to see them in your sport.


Just thought Id share some past knowledge of may lie ahead in the 2smoke arena to help your sport!

[TZ350]

I am not sure what your point is but Nat demonstrates the point that 80-85cc can be very useful and I would be surprised that anybody who put their mind to it could not easily get similar good power and power spread like Nats from a MX85.

Ive been following this thread from the outset and have found it quite interesting that there hasn't been the usual mass resistance to the idea of Competition based engines,BUT the post that stands out to me the most, Is Henks one where he raises the point "Is it really necessary,Are the fields struggling for numbers?" From what Ive read there is no need to bolster numbers.

The post Ive quoted bothers me the most though as it appears to imply that maybe its not such a great idea as one of these machines may actually win, I mean lets be honest here,Its hardly a level playing field anyway, How many others have the resources that GPR or ESE have to build and develop their machinery?

True Team ESE is blessed with a little old lathe, a drill press, dyno, a bunch of hand tools and a willingness to put in an enormous amount of work learning the craft. GPR offer their skills as a service and ESE post everything they do, in part so others don't have to spend as long in the wilderness as ESE has.

Personally I don't care one way or the other about MX85's, as Henk said, they are not needed to bolster the numbers, but if they came in, I would only be disappointed if people tried to put all sorts of restrictions on them.

Because Buckets is openly about developing "the package" you have, the best you can, the package, is rider-engine-handling and knowledge of the craft. I think if MX85's came in then they should only be restricted by capacity with everything else about them open.

You could do very well with one, and to pretend otherwise is dishonest. You could also do very well with a currently legal 100 or 125 or 150 whatever you choose to put the effort into. True, resources help, but a lack of willingness to overcome or apply oneself or more importantly to learn is more limiting than a lack of resources.

And if we are looking at a fundamental change to the rules then maybe we should discuss all aspects of the rules and take the opportunity to give them a good looking over.

My only gripe would be if people who don't wan't to make the effort are promoting MX85' as an easy way to level the playing field somewhat with the other front runners who have put the hard yards in with the old style commuter or farm bike engines that are currently legal and still available but admittedly in dwindling variety.

[Billy]

True Team ESE is blessed with a little old lathe, a drill press, dyno, a bunch of hand tools and a willingness to put in an enormous amount of work learning the craft. GPR offer their skills as a service and ESE post everything they do, in part so others don't have to spend as long in the wilderness as ESE has.

Personally I don't care one way or the other about MX85's, as Henk said, they are not needed to bolster the numbers, I would only be disappointed if people tried to put all sorts of restrictions on them.

Because Buckets is openly about developing "the package" you have the best you can, the package, is rider-engine-handling and knowledge of the craft. I think if MX85's came in then they should only be restricted by capacity with everything else about them open.

You could do very well with one, and to pretend otherwise is dishonest. You could also do very well with a currently legal 100 or 125 or 150 whatever you choose to put the effort into.

And if we are looking at a fundamental change to the rules then maybe we should discuss all aspects of the rules and take the opportunity to give them a good looking over.

My only gripe would be if people who don't wan't to make the effort are promoting MX85' as an easy way for themselves to level the playing field somewhat with the other front runners who have put the hard yards in with the old style commuter or farm bike engines.

Yea,

Agree completely with the last paragraph,Although I doubt sketchy would fall into that bracket,The point I was trying to make is,What about those who simply don't have the resources etc required,It could be an easy way in for them,Re the rulebook,Goodluck with that,It's an embarrasment to the sport,The best advice I could give you is for a group of the more experienced amongst you reformulate them and when your satisfied you have them right,Submit them to Greg to have them ratified,Its the ONLY way you'll get them sorted currently.

[White trash]

Haven't had time yet to get through all 43 pages but has anyone yet mentioned what I feel the best argument *for* allowing an MX 85 rule (something choppa's been banging on about for years) and that's the opportunity to lure kids over from Junior MX to try a different code. Makes pretty good sense to me.

[TZ350]

What about those who simply don't have the resources etc required.

It might only be Buckets but it is still a competitive sport and like all sports it requires some resource to participate in.

297417

This is where I started and with some very limited hand tools.

Sure you can't expect to be a winner straight off but it is a starting point that is still pretty much open to anybody.

It was years before I managed 20 hp but I learnt a lot along the way, like how to make the best of whatever I could scrounge beg borrow or steal in what I imagine is the traditional Bucketeer way.

Maybe this is the time to talk about what Buckets should mean as a race class.

[Kickaha]

Haven't had time yet to get through all 43 pages but has anyone yet mentioned what I feel the best argument *for* allowing an MX 85 rule (something choppa's been banging on about for years) and that's the opportunity to lure kids over from Junior MX to try a different code. Makes pretty good sense to me.

Choppa and Sketchy have been the only people really pushing it and that's just because they're the guys who want to run those motors it's got bugger all to do with luring kids over to try a different code

[Bert]

Choppa and Sketchy have been the only people really pushing it and that's just because they're the guys who want to run those motors it's got bugger all to do with luring kids over to try a different code

I should say out...
But I'm on the list of supporters of trying something different (without adverse effects to the current state of the class) And have been involved in the sport for a reasonable length of time (1994)... And seen it's ups and downs.
And I do have a roll to luring kids (read newbies) across from different codes (all be it bigger bikes); but regularly suggest that the newbies (to bigger bikes) to go bucket racing to improve race craft skills... This is the real opportunity this class offers, skill development and time on bike racing.

I have no agenda as I've already got some cool F4 machines, and no way would I likely head down down the 85cc path (and I can't ride what I've got anyway, just making up numbers).

But, as I see it, the current rules support the ethos of the class (the only true formula racing left in NZ). I certainly do not want to destroy this.
I do see the 85cc as a way to jump in to the class with a competitive engine (reducing the required level of engineering and understanding of performance tuning): to give a leg up and allow for focus on racing rather than engineering... This is my primary driver (the game has changed and you need 16+ Hp to be even out near the front of Bgrade). Gone of the days of turning up with a farm engine (ported and piped to Bell) and not being lapped in the lower class, this could very well be a turnoff to the Y,Z gens... But there are already plenty of options within the current rules and help (even if they don't look sexy to the new generation)...

But if the idea/concept results in the "it's not fair" and pursuing rules arm race (modifications within the current rules) then there is not benefit at all in allowing 85 in.

In saying this however There are reasonable discussions around relaxing the current rules to enable the use of readily available parts (rods&bearing, trans etc.). Valid, as they are now obtainable and in quantity (something that wasn't 20+ years ago)...



Henk has a strong point.
Is it needed?
and will we see people take advantage and cross over?
Well the answer is maybe (and in small numbers; nothing like the FXRs did for the class)....
But if the opportunity isn't there we will never know. The key question is will it effect the class and the culture wrapped around it??
Yes if it generate friction between current active rider conforming to the rules... Or if there is a perception of unfairness.

So, if the above comments suggest there is not a reason to make the change, then it's just something that people should consider (what does the future of the class look like? And what are the people involved in the class interested in primarily?
Will we see a shift away from enjoyment of both side engineering & racing; to that of just racing?
Is that where we want to head?

[jasonu]

Haven't had time yet to get through all 43 pages but has anyone yet mentioned what I feel the best argument *for* allowing an MX 85 rule (something choppa's been banging on about for years) and that's the opportunity to lure kids over from Junior MX to try a different code. Makes pretty good sense to me.

Why would you even want to lure kids in. They aren't interested in building, testing, developing anything. Those kids aren't interested in Buckets. They want to ride something that looks more like a motogp bike for instance the Hyosong class. As has been pointed out several times Buckets really doesn't need lots of new riders (the grids are already bursting at the seams) and the last thing it needs is a bunch of kids that think everything should be done for them and their screaming fathers yelling at everyone.

[Yow Ling]

I agree with you Jason. Down here they start on RG150's andmove up to buckets or whatever later on, so they already have plenty good racecraft when they arrive and start kicking arse. The annoying ones have already been weeded out. Not sure why everyone thinks buckets is an entry level class , most of the racers are 35 + and been around for years.

I don't see the 85 mx as bait for new riders just an option where you trade off 15% of your capacity for a CR gearbox, and a couple of kilo's. There is nothing magical in the barrel that cant be replicated in a 100 cc engine.

[quallman1234]

Here in Wellington its a little different.

So your saying that for a new kid to get the best riding in. He should drag his gear/bike up for 2 hour trip to manfield, to get a practice and 3 races.
Totalling something like 20 laps or maybe 30 minutes on the track. Likely having to stay the night sometimes, and paying 100$ in entry fees (Okay i'm not sure what the juniour rate is these days).
Not to mention only once a month.
Versus taking there bike to upper hutt and having 1 practice and 5 races, for 35$. Not to mention free practice whenever he wishes, if he purchases a key for 100$ a year.
People learn faster or slower than others. The absolute number 1 thing you can do for someone learning is to provide them as much track time as possible.
When i was racing Streetstock, i barely rode the thing, and had to relearn each month for the first couple of sessions!
You guys have it alot better in CH for access to the track, dont forget we do not have anything like you guys do!
There's a shit load more corners at Kaitoke vs Manfield, and it does convert very easily.

The racing on kart tracks is always a whole bunch tighter than the big tracks up here. The big track racing always becomes spread out.
You dont need 16hp here to be competitive in B-grade.
I pretty much have a stock FXR, with good tires/rims and a carb, and if the fast bikes dont turn up (its pretty rare to see them now), i am around 2nd/3rd in A grade.
I am underpowered, but i have the ability to ride around it a little bit.

[jasonu]

There is nothing magical in the barrel that cant be replicated with a lot of time, effort and skill for instance better transfers and a bridgeport exhaust in a 100 cc engine.

Added a bit to your post.

[husaberg]

Added a bit to your post.

You missed the full tunnel crankcase reed, low internal primary drive, Clutch made for abuse, and not just bridge port exhaust, some have aux ex ports....... thing is though getting these kids to cross over on a modied std frame mx bike anyone aware why the MNZ separates Motards and Road racers on street curcuits.......... Billy ...........

[Drew]

You missed the full tunnel crankcase reed, low internal primary drive, Clutch made for abuse, and not just bidge port exhaust, some have aux ex ports....... thing is though getting these kids to cross over on a modied std frame mx bike anyone aware why the MNZ separates Motards and Road racers on street curcuits.......... Billy ...........

The current crop of MX bikes, are twin spar alluminium frames aren't they?

So why do the bikes need to be set up like a motard when they can get clip on bars and firm suspension?

[husaberg]

The current crop of MX bikes, are twin spar alluminium frames aren't they?

So why do the bikes need to be set up like a motard when they can get clip on bars and firm suspension?

There is no twin spar 85's as far as i am aware, unless Cobra do one.
Thing is Drew people are saying get the kids in well, Frankly it won't, without mods to the bikes.
Maybe the answer is to do a junior motard class at the kart tracks that way they will be competive get some tarmac experiance for minimum cost just let them throw on some 12 inch rims on sticky tires keep the rest homolgated that way they will all run the same lines for minium cost and investment.
I still say a use of the KTM50 sx and pro snr's 2002-2008 needs to be found , there is plenty arround, they would be ideal kart track bikes,They have no fun bike use as they are not really suitable for learners at all.

[Yow Ling]

Here in Wellington its a little different.

So your saying that for a new kid to get the best riding in. He should drag his gear/bike up for 2 hour trip to manfield, to get a practice and 3 races.
Totalling something like 20 laps or maybe 30 minutes on the track. Likely having to stay the night sometimes, and paying 100$ in entry fees (Okay i'm not sure what the juniour rate is these days).
Not to mention only once a month.


Not saying that at all, just saying that down here buckets is different than up there.
At MCI meets buckets and streetstocks run in the same race so no difference except street stockers are racing other street stockers
Also the Street stock are split into Junior and senior so experienced older riders cant rain on the junior SS parade.
MCI also runs a training class which is tracktime but not racing, 3 sessions per raceday, I think its free, this feeds the ss class and ultimately the exotic classes like Buckets and Superbikes

While we get plenty access to the track ,when buckets are run separately, its an all in, no A grade / B grade / F5 so not always the best environment for beginners.

I guess its down to the clubs to provide a structure that works given the resources available.

[quallman1234]

Not saying that at all, just saying that down here buckets is different than up there.
At MCI meets buckets and streetstocks run in the same race so no difference except street stockers are racing other street stockers
Also the Street stock are split into Junior and senior so experienced older riders cant rain on the junior SS parade.
MCI also runs a training class which is tracktime but not racing, 3 sessions per raceday, I think its free, this feeds the ss class and ultimately the exotic classes like Buckets and Superbikes

While we get plenty access to the track ,when buckets are run separately, its an all in, no A grade / B grade / F5 so not always the best environment for beginners.

I guess its down to the clubs to provide a structure that works given the resources available.

I agree completely, there is a large difference between Buckets in each island, and any rule change would have to suit both.
Buckets tends to be the better beginning class due to access in the NI, and perhaps Streetstock for the SI.

[mr bucketracer]

I should say out...
But I'm on the list of supporters of trying something different (without adverse effects to the current state of the class) And have been involved in the sport for a reasonable length of time (1994)... And seen it's ups and downs.
And I do have a roll to luring kids (read newbies) across from different codes (all be it bigger bikes); but regularly suggest that the newbies (to bigger bikes) to go bucket racing to improve race craft skills... This is the real opportunity this class offers, skill development and time on bike racing.

I have no agenda as I've already got some cool F4 machines, and no way would I likely head down down the 85cc path (and I can't ride what I've got anyway, just making up numbers).

But, as I see it, the current rules support the ethos of the class (the only true formula racing left in NZ). I certainly do not want to destroy this.
I do see the 85cc as a way to jump in to the class with a competitive engine (reducing the required level of engineering and understanding of performance tuning): to give a leg up and allow for focus on racing rather than engineering... This is my primary driver (the game has changed and you need 16+ Hp to be even out near the front of Bgrade). Gone of the days of turning up with a farm engine (ported and piped to Bell) and not being lapped in the lower class, this could very well be a turnoff to the Y,Z gens... But there are already plenty of options within the current rules and help (even if they don't look sexy to the new generation)...

But if the idea/concept results in the "it's not fair" and pursuing rules arm race (modifications within the current rules) then there is not benefit at all in allowing 85 in.

In saying this however There are reasonable discussions around relaxing the current rules to enable the use of readily available parts (rods&bearing, trans etc.). Valid, as they are now obtainable and in quantity (something that wasn't 20+ years ago)...



Henk has a strong point.
Is it needed?
and will we see people take advantage and cross over?
Well the answer is maybe (and in small numbers; nothing like the FXRs did for the class)....
But if the opportunity isn't there we will never know. The key question is will it effect the class and the culture wrapped around it??
Yes if it generate friction between current active rider conforming to the rules... Or if there is a perception of unfairness.

So, if the above comments suggest there is not a reason to make the change, then it's just something that people should consider (what does the future of the class look like? And what are the people involved in the class interested in primarily?
Will we see a shift away from enjoyment of both side engineering & racing; to that of just racing?
Is that where we want to head?maybe a new rule (you can't buy Hp) .. that would releave me of some frigging pain! for the yes man:woohoo:

[Yow Ling]

maybe a new rule (you can't buy Hp) .. that would releave me of some frigging pain! for the yes man:woohoo:

I think that is the problem, don't like something, make a rule.RIch bans bike is too fast new rule no light blue bikes, when you turn the shower on you get wet. I think that is how it has to be if we go with mx85, not much point in having some buckets loaded with rules, the carb rule for 125 ac should go now and like every other group in buckets be limited by capacity alone

[kel]

Yea,

Re the rulebook,Goodluck with that,It's an embarrasment to the sport.

:confused: It would be nice to have them tidied up, and the holes pluged!

BUT

Someone made a start this year with the fuel rule and look at the stink that caused

[kel]

the carb rule for 125 ac ahold go now and like every other group in buckets be limited by capacity alone

No, no, no. That would mean more power, more heat, more problems. The damn things are too unstable as it is.

[Yow Ling]

No, no, no. That would mean more power, more heat, more problems. The damn things are too unstable as it is.

Thats why its unnecessary

[Billy]

You missed the full tunnel crankcase reed, low internal primary drive, Clutch made for abuse, and not just bridge port exhaust, some have aux ex ports....... thing is though getting these kids to cross over on a modied std frame mx bike anyone aware why the MNZ separates Motards and Road racers on street curcuits.......... Billy ...........

Thats a decision taken by the clubs re the street circuit,Although there is a handlebar clause in the Superlite appendix thay would prevent motards running in there,I have helped clubs around that by running F3 instead and altering their supp regs to suit,To be honest though there are a number of stewards that don't enforce the rules anyway,

Oh and I'm in no way connected to MNZ anymore,Greg Percival is now RR commissioner

[Billy]

:confused: It would be nice to have them tidied up, and the holes pluged!

BUT

Someone made a start this year with the fuel rule and look at the stink that caused

Yea,

I don't disagree,I'm just saying,Don't wait for MNZ to do anything about it,As it won't happen,The rulebook in its current state is unenforceable in most cases,I would have a very different approach when building a racebike for ANY class now after witnessing the joke that it is firsthand.

[Kickaha]

The rulebook in its current state is unenforceable in most cases,I would have a very different approach when building a racebike for ANY class now after witnessing the joke that it is firsthand.
It wouldn't matter what was in the rule book and how it was worded people would still be saying that

[Grumph]

Yea,

I don't disagree,I'm just saying,Don't wait for MNZ to do anything about it,As it won't happen,The rulebook in its current state is unenforceable in most cases,I would have a very different approach when building a racebike for ANY class now after witnessing the joke that it is firsthand.

Welcome to the dark side mate.....the ability to read - and interpret - the rule book is much underrated by bike builders but IMO it's bloody essential. A knowledge of how it's been interpreted in the past is a must too as precedents, once set, are there for ever....

that is why although I have no position on this question, I keep emphasising whatever comes in MUST BE ENFORCEABLE.

[bucketracer]

It might only be Buckets but it is still a competitive sport.

297417

This is where I started and with some very limited hand tools.

Sure you can't expect to be a winner straight off but it is a starting point that is still pretty much open to anybody.

It was years before I managed 20 hp but I learnt a lot along the way.


I would LIKE to tell TZ all the real tuning secrets, but I am worried that if I did, given the fact that Teezeetreefiddys engine (apparently) is "overheating" and requires dubious cooling efficiency improvements, (at a "wopping" 15.5 P.S) if I was to tell him how to make more power, it may well cause a Nuclear Holcaust of biblical proportions as it headed down the back straight, causing widespread destruction,and global warming of unprecedented proportions.

I don't want that on my head.

Mind you, he probably still wont win a race.

There you go, I guess TeeZee figured it out for himself starting at a wopping 15.5 hp and has been trending up ever since.

Does anybody seriously think 30hp will be the end of it or that any MX85 would be safe from serious "improvement" if he got hold of one.... http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I can see why he does not personally care whether MX85's are in or out.

[Billy]

It wouldn't matter what was in the rule book and how it was worded people would still be saying that

Yip,

I'm sure they would,BUT when a grade 4 steward can't follow it anymore as the rules have been reworded etc by a panel of experts that clearly don't have a clue,It becomes more than a little frustrating and don't get me started on the nonexistent "Correct procedure" that the appeal committee consistently refer when upholdong appeals that they can't direct anybody to in the manual,Still this thread was about MX engunes wasn't it,Best get it back on track.

[Yow Ling]

Yip,

I'm sure they would,BUT when a grade 4 steward can't follow it anymore as the rules have been reworded etc by a panel of experts that clearly don't have a clue,It becomes more than a little frustrating and don't get me started on the nonexistent "Correct procedure" that the appeal committee consistently refer when upholdong appeals that they can't direct anybody to in the manual,Still this thread was about MX engunes wasn't it,Best get it back on track.

You need to build a bucket Billy, of all the rules buckets is easiest to understand

Plus more grumpy old pricks in buckets than any other class

[TZ350]

Plus more grumpy old pricks in buckets than any other class

Hey!!! I resemble that...:D

[Billy]

You need to build a bucket Billy, of all the rules buckets is easiest to understand

Plus more grumpy old pricks in buckets than any other class

Yea,We'll see where this MX engine thing goes,I happen to have a 2004 KTM85 hidden away somewhere with a blown crank and a coupla frames that might suit.

[speights_bud]

Yea,We'll see where this MX engine thing goes,I happen to have a 2004 KTM85 hidden away somewhere with a blown crank and a coupla frames that might suit.

This is exactly my thoughts on the engine sourcing for the mx 85. Not cheque book go buy one for$1.5k, although if you want to drop the $$ on one fair enough.

I found the bike sketchy's engine came from covered in Shit & blown up in the back of a shed. After stealing the engine and electrics I bought a new piston for under $100. Then the Mrs got up the duff and our local bucket track got screwed so I abandoned the build and donated it to start this Shit fight. Haha, you're welcome.

[Mental Trousers]

... so I abandoned the build and donated it to start this Shit fight. Haha, you're welcome.

Good lad :Punk:

[Billy]

This is exactly my thoughts on the engine sourcing for the mx 85. Not cheque book go buy one for$1.5k, although if you want to drop the $$ on one fair enough.

I found the bike sketchy's engine came from covered in Shit & blown up in the back of a shed. After stealing the engine and electrics I bought a new piston for under $100. Then the Mrs got up the duff and our local bucket track got screwed so I abandoned the build and donated it to start this Shit fight. Haha, you're welcome.

Hahaha,

The shitfight is no longer my problem,But it's def worth considering,Even if it means a whole new class it could encourage young Moto X riders across,But I doubt they'd turn up in the hundreds,Probably more like 2 or 3 max and I'm not sure we need the junior motorcross attitude in roadracing either,Theres been a couple sneak in that have come from that scene and their attitude sucks to be fair.

[speights_bud]

I have to agree with you there, we did the mnz officials training with a large group of the motox clubs and sounds like parents are the most dangerous part of the job...

Oh and back on topic, someone said it's really just 2 people who are pushing for the change, I think it would be fair to say there are a few others who are watching that just haven't posted about their interest yet. Up until just now that includes me.

[speedpro]

45 pages in less than 3 weeks - there's plenty of interest in the topic.

As usual there is never going to be total agreement. It might be worth checking with the race organisers to see if they'd be allowed out if anyone turned up with one. Seems like a possibility, in Wellington anyway. That would be a good way to determine their performance without all the hypothetical cow excrement. If anyone has a motor in Auckland i'd be interested in chucking something together for a bit of a try.

[Pumba]

45 pages in less than 3 weeks - there's plenty of interest in the topic.

As usual there is never going to be total agreement. It might be worth checking with the race organisers to see if they'd be allowed out if anyone turned up with one. Seems like a possibility, in Wellington anyway. That would be a good way to determine their performance without all the hypothetical cow excrement. If anyone has a motor in Auckland i'd be interested in chucking something together for a bit of a try.

20 odd pages back Mike


Nope........


You can take that as anything you like :)
The problem with running non legal bikes for no points is that as mentioned above they can get involved in dices with people that are playing by the rules and screw up their race.
We had similar issues with the combined C and F5 races which is why we ended up splitting them.


I have no issue with someone building one as a proof of concept and I believe sketchy has already done this. I'd let them run at practice at Mt Welly but not in a race until they are legal.
I'm not sure what this would prove though, we know it can be done. The cynical bastard in me also says that anyone building one of these so that we can evaluate it is going to be firmly in the camp of wanting them in, they are hardly going to build something as fast as possible to start with, more likely to be a stock engine to start with and then start with the tuning once it's all go.
I can understand why people want these in, I'm just not all that convinced that we need it at the moment.

[F5 Dave]

Who started this shift fight anyway? Clearly not in the spirit of buckets:oi-grr:

[gav]

OK couldnt keep up trying to read this thread, oh wait, thats just like on the track .... :laugh:
F4 = Four stroke class up to 160cc (no competition engines)
F5 = Two stroke class, 125 air cooled, up to 100cc water cooled.

Sorted ..... next :Police:

[gav]

MX85 = cheap class? http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-734926376.htm
errr not sure about that !!
Luring Juniors over you think, so Junior has his $4K 85cc MXer, he then buys some motard wheels ($1500) for it, and turns up to race ...
Really? Not sure about other clubs but here at MCI he could probably borrow a club RG150, race in Streetsport / Development class, maybe get offered a 250 Ninja for the 250 Proddy, then sell his MXer and buys his own 250.
I wouldnt see expect to see too many, if any, MX juniors rocking up with there 85cc MXers.
What I would expect to see is a few old fossils parking up there FXR's and seeing what a 2 stroke is like.
There are still plenty of FXR's for sale on Trade Me along with CBR125's , CBR150's Yamaha R15's etc
I'm not sure we really need the 85cc MXers, but certainly not adverse to the idea. Not sure how/where the 200cc 2 valve suddenly got added. Just one at a time aye .....

[Mental Trousers]

Not sure how/where the 200cc 2 valve suddenly got added. Just one at a time aye .....

That was thrown in by people trying to muddy the waters a bit, eg if they're gonna be let in why not have (insert something ridiculous here).

But, 200cc 2 valves is a different discussion. Anyone want to start that thread??

[kel]

That was thrown in by people trying to muddy the waters
No, simply putting forward the Aussie format that seems to work so well. 85 water cooled, vs 150 4 valvers, vs 200cc single air cooled 2 valvers. Each engine type is represented in their top 10 results. http://www.ozbucketracing.com/2014/documents/2014-Rd2-PCRA-BRABucketChampionship.pdf Yeah, yeah, not Australia, what would they know, blah blah blah
We still have our 100cc non comp water cooler 2 strokes that should dominate, thats what really muddies the waters but as they have always been there ... long may they stay

Take a quick look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6nMm2Y9CJ0#t=254 fast forward to 3min 20 for 85 vs 150 head to head down the straight. Now tell me thats not an even match up on the big track! The way that 85 revs through the box gives me shivers.

[mr bucketracer]

No, simply putting forward the Aussie format that seems to work so well. 85 water cooled, vs 150 4 valvers, vs 200cc single air cooled 2 valvers. Each engine type is represented in their top 10 results. http://www.ozbucketracing.com/2014/documents/2014-Rd2-PCRA-BRABucketChampionship.pdf Yeah, yeah, not Australia, what would they know, blah blah blah
We still have our 100cc non comp water cooler 2 strokes that should dominate, thats what really muddies the waters but as they have always been there ... long may they stay

Take a quick look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6nMm2Y9CJ0#t=254 fast forward to 3min 20 for 85 vs 150 head to head down the straight. Now tell me thats not an even match up on the big track! The way that 85 revs through the box gives me shivers.going of the stinger size and muffer out let of the white bike its also is a 85 , the four strokes are the ones been laped lol . good video

[kel]

going of the stinger size and muffer out let of the white bike its also is a 85 , the four strokes are the ones been laped lol . good video

The green bike with the big fat exhaust :crazy:

[mr bucketracer]

The green bike with the big fat exhaust :crazy:it keeped jumping to over 4 mins but it work this time , looks like the bike craped itself but was going fast . i did not know they run mx four strokes over there

[CHOPPA]

MX85 = cheap class? http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/dirt-bikes/auction-734926376.htm
errr not sure about that !!
Luring Juniors over you think, so Junior has his $4K 85cc MXer, he then buys some motard wheels ($1500) for it, and turns up to race ...
Really? Not sure about other clubs but here at MCI he could probably borrow a club RG150, race in Streetsport / Development class, maybe get offered a 250 Ninja for the 250 Proddy, then sell his MXer and buys his own 250.
I wouldnt see expect to see too many, if any, MX juniors rocking up with there 85cc MXers.
What I would expect to see is a few old fossils parking up there FXR's and seeing what a 2 stroke is like.
There are still plenty of FXR's for sale on Trade Me along with CBR125's , CBR150's Yamaha R15's etc
I'm not sure we really need the 85cc MXers, but certainly not adverse to the idea. Not sure how/where the 200cc 2 valve suddenly got added. Just one at a time aye .....


I think you would be surprised. The Jnr MX kids could turn up with some road tyres on their spare set of rims, chuck some nylon on the bike. On a Kart track it would be a lot of fun, good practice.

[richban]

Thread dredging sorry.

But sort of relevant. So how is the Derbi 80 kit legal again?

Just asking coz I think an AM6 engine with a 90cc kit would be quite the little beast. The answers from my question I can then repeat when asked at a later date.:msn-wink:

[timg]

Thread dredging sorry.

But sort of relevant. So how is the Derbi 80 kit legal again?

Just asking coz I think an AM6 engine with a 90cc kit would be quite the little beast. The answers from my question I can then repeat when asked at a later date.:msn-wink: Ya not turning to the dark side are ya? :) http://taromoto.en.alibaba.com/product/453225818-0/Chinese_Minarelli_engine.html

[goose8]

Thread dredging sorry.

But sort of relevant. So how is the Derbi 80 kit legal again?

Just asking coz I think an AM6 engine with a 90cc kit would be quite the little beast. The answers from my question I can then repeat when asked at a later date.:msn-wink:
Don't mind the motor but don't get a rs chassis then you would of gone full circle an turn into a homo haha anyway what am I saying there banning them next year .

[Henk]

Don't mind the motor but don't get a rs chassis then you would of gone full circle an turn into a homo haha anyway what am I saying there banning them next year .

RS wheels are out as well I believe.

[goose8]

RS wheels are out as well I believe.
Cool as I would happy to take them off if they ban the chassis

[husaberg]

Cool as I would happy to take them off if they ban the chassis
At this stage as far as I am aware they are only Banning " 250GP bike Frames"

[goose8]

RS wheels are out as well I believe.What about I use mb frame rs wheels they use rs frame mb wheels that sound pretty even

[Drew]

At this stage as far as I am aware they are only Banning " 250GP bike Frames"Really? That seems stupid. Why are some competition frames to be allowed, and not others?

[speedpro]

If they don't up the capacity limit to 200cc Rich is going to have to get a new chassis and engine.

[richban]

If they don't up the capacity limit to 200cc Rich is going to have to get a new chassis and engine.

Exactly. Thats why I have a new engine. Be gone FXR hello ..........


I think that might be a dig at me Drew. But i sold my 250 gp frame to go prodie 250 NSR.

[husaberg]

Really? That seems stupid. Why are some competition frames to be allowed, and not others?

Ya right Drew it would be like allowing some to use competition engines...............

But yes it was (not meant to be mean) jibe /Banter

[Drew]

Ya right Drew it would be like allowing some to use competition engines...............

But yes it was jibe /Banter

Oh right..

[jasonu]

At this stage as far as I am aware they are only Banning " 250GP bike Frames"
I think Harley frames are out too...

[F5 Dave]

I'd quite happily ditch my RS frame, having briefly ridden a GPR chassised bike they are clearly superior. If you all want to set me on the straight & narrow please have a whip around to pay Scott to build me one, but don't tell me what it costs I might get embarrassed at your generosity. Thanks again. Or if you decide not to, you're a bunch of miserable winkers.

[Sketchy_Racer]

I'd quite happily ditch my RS frame, having briefly ridden a GPR chassised bike they are clearly superior. If you all want to set me on the straight & narrow please have a whip around to pay Scott to build me one, but don't tell me what it costs I might get embarrassed at your generosity. Thanks again. Or if you decide not to, you're a bunch of miserable winkers.

Because I'm such a good sort, I will give you a donation towards your new chassis AND will even take that burdensome RS chassis off your hands at the same time.

:innocent:

[jasonu]

So Dave, did you change your mind or what????

[F5 Dave]

Well it cost me $300 cw tank suspension sw fairing etc so I'd want to get at least some of that back.

[FastFred]

Nice of you to offer, but 2mm clearance is probably getting a bit on the loose side. A nice brand new crank would likely be of more interest. There has been a little interest expressed in a run of offset big end pins. It's getting tempting to check out current costs for say a run of 5. Throw in a (legal)rod kit and a bit of crank machining and it could still end up being quite expensive but you save by using cheap KT100 pistons and being able to step up in .05mm steps extending the life of each cylinder.
Offset gudgeon are you meaning crankpins?

Did you check the scooter ones i posted a while back against the STD mb/H100

Actually the T5 eccentric pin looks like it could work with limited mods as its only 2mm short

The width at the big end is workable? with thinner thrust washers

Rod the right length but the little end is to big, so bugger.

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/crankshaft+pin+eccentric+pin_4043ad213

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/crankshaft+pin+drt+eccentric_4043ad179 (http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/crankshaft+pin+drt+eccentric_4043ad179a)

297794297795

Would a 52mm bore + oversizes and a de stroke of 2mm work?

[husaberg]

Would a 52mm bore + oversizes and a de stroke of 2mm work?
not for me..........
But I have a 24m big end.lol
No one's tried the pin as far as I am aware Looking at the vespa crank it may not be long enough
(which I put in post or the previous time mentioned them)
from memory the lambi rod is about 15mm wide.
Been a while. but at the time lambi als had these pins available i don think I could find much further information on the sizes and length of the std lambi pin.
this vespa is 2mm short whch may or may not be an issue............

[F5 Dave]

Have to get lucky with widths to suit. And only $100US, a snip, might've well buy a few to try.

[husaberg]

Have to get lucky with widths to suit. And only $100US, a snip, might've well buy a few to try.
I think it is 100 euros...... I have feeling they were1/2 that price hen I seen them first.......

[F5 Dave]

Well along with forcing them on by deforming the cages and pushing I can't see any impediment to reliable action.

[husaberg]

Yeah when I originally found them they were 79euros.


I seem to have found a Eccentric pin which might work in the MB100/H100 motors that would allow the use of a Strike 52mm kart piston it alow the use of a STD style bearing as well the price looks ok.
I will post the pics and the links later.
Speedpro used this approach but the cost I guess was probably a lot more than an off the shelf mass produced solution.

http://www.lambretta-teile.de/Big-end-pin-eccentric-for-crankshaft-60-to-62mm-Vespa-PX
http://www.lambretta-teile.de/Excenter-bolt-big-end-crankshaft-2mm-stroke-Vespa-PK-PV-V50
http://www.lambretta-teile.de/Eccentric-shaft-crankshaft-52-to-54mm-Vespa-T5
http://www.vespa-lambretta-teile.com/Exzentrischer-Hubzapfen-PX-20-mm-Langhub-625-mm_1
http://www.worb5.com/shop_de_7/start.php?P_2071.php

There are other option if you bore out the crank to 22 if there is enough room.
The Bearing according to the blurbs is ment to be able to wigggle on?

I am having trouble finding the widths the Vespa seem to be around 15mm not sure with the Lambrettas where scooterboy

[speedpro]

The pin I had made has 20mm ends and a 22mm centre. The offset is .75mm for a stroke decrease of 1.5mm. No wriggling of big end bearings required as the centre is larger than the ends and even at minimum is still .25mm above the surface of the 20mm section.

[husaberg]

Did ever find out why Daves Broke?

[speedpro]

He's really rough on gear is the likeliest correct answer.

[Yow Ling]

Did ever find out why Daves Broke?

Too many kids

[Grumph]

Too many kids

Explains why he posts at odd hours in the early AM too....

There was a pic promised of the pin but it's never eventuated.

[koba]

The pin I had made has 20mm ends and a 22mm centre. The offset is .75mm for a stroke decrease of 1.5mm. No wriggling of big end bearings required as the centre is larger than the ends and even at minimum is still .25mm above the surface of the 20mm section.

So one should be able to use all that area to offset 1mm and run a 2mm longer stroke?

(Thinking of my road project here, that would take me to 120cc...)

[F5 Dave]

Explains why he posts at odd hours in the early AM too....

There was a pic promised of the pin but it's never eventuated.
Oh yeah, wonder wher it got to. Life is so complex at the moment.

[FastFred]

Nice of you to offer, but 2mm clearance is probably getting a bit on the loose side. A nice brand new crank would likely be of more interest. There has been a little interest expressed in a run of offset big end pins. It's getting tempting to check out current costs for say a run of 5. Throw in a (legal)rod kit and a bit of crank machining and it could still end up being quite expensive but you save by using cheap KT100 pistons and being able to step up in .05mm steps extending the life of each cylinder.
Offset gudgeon are you meaning crankpins?

Did you check the scooter ones i posted a while back against the STD mb/H100

Actually the T5 eccentric pin looks like it could work with limited mods as its only 2mm short

The width at the big end is workable? with thinner thrust washers

Rod the right length but the little end is to big, so bugger.

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/crankshaft+pin+eccentric+pin_4043ad213

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/crankshaft+pin+drt+eccentric_4043ad179 (http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/crankshaft+pin+drt+eccentric_4043ad179a)

297794297795

Have to get lucky with widths to suit. And only $100US, a snip, might've well buy a few to try.

No no don't go to any trouble, change the rules.

[chrisc]

Hahaha why the HELL am I dredging this thread!

Just as an FYI, here's a link to a guy's 85cc to NF4 build.
He mills down the mounting point on the sprocket side of the casing to get the correct chain alignment and makes a new mounting block for the rear.
The engine looks like it fits really nicely :bash:

http://miniroadracers.informe.com/forum/general-topics-f1/steve-o-s-projects-thread-t2671-40.html

[TZ350]

MX engines, limited to 85cc no other restrictions



Proposed Rule Changes........ it is getting to that time of year again. If anyone has anything lets get it out there.

[speights_bud]

Proposed Rule Changes........ it is getting to that time of year again. If anyone has anything lets get it out there.Remember the proposed changes need to be submitted by a club which has voted to do so and has the correct documents to support the proposed changes.

Just a reminder as time goes fast. Put your proposal in at your next club meeting and have the paperwork ready for the committee to rubberstamp.

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[Henk]

Most people probably know where I stand on this issue but out of interest how many people would actually build one?

[Drew]

Most people probably know where I stand on this issue but out of interest how many people would actually build one?

How many people even have access to a motor? It's a big class for current bikes, but the old stuff is mostly junk by now.

[F5 Dave]

Ok so I did a Tardme search using Dirtbikes, key word 85, and upper price of 2k.

20 listings of pukka mx85s



From that you would get lots of useful chassis parts along with complete engine, electrics, carb, pipe, radiator package.

I've seen mx frame used with shortened forks and 17" wheels laced on.



I searched FXR, I found one Bucket, and a Harley.

Just saying.

[speedpro]

I'd be really tempted

[F5 Dave]

Well one day I might be able to return. Just seeing this post makes me think, even though I would no longer be pointy end this might be a good way. If we don't run out of skinny slick tyres. Or tracks.

[speights_bud]

I provided the prototype engine and then on sold it very quickly 6 months after I got it back.

To someone who wanted it hoarded for the day these rules are changed.

I originally found it with a seized piston in a shed for nothing. They are out there.

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[jasonu]

I'd be really tempted

I'd do it.
I'd also remit for CRF150R motors at the same time.

[cotswold]

Most people probably know where I stand on this issue but out of interest how many people would actually build one?

It may solve some of our noise issues.

[TZ350]

.
Team ESE are not much interest in MX85's as we are heavily invested in our H2O GP100's and RG 50's and make quite good engines out of them.

But we can see MX80's and 85's are nice light reliable engines that are ready to go. And considering everything that is easily available over the net for the European scooter market and with the availability of reasonable two stroke MX engines locally then maybe its time for anything 85cc or less to be totally open.

Everything has its advantages and disadvantages but we can see that being able to use all the commonly/easily available 2T bits without having to do too much could be a positive thing.

And to keep rule things simple, maybe for two strokes 85cc or less, make them totally open, more than 85cc as per current rules.

People might even start replacing their expensively blown up 4T 150's with off the shelf 2T MX 80's and 85 engines.

Nothing wrong with re-purposing a good FXR or other 150 Bucket chassis that needs a new motor with something cheaper, more reliable and easily available.

[speights_bud]

So who here is going to put forward the proposed 85cc open rule?

Talking here is great but it doesn't mean anything unless someone picks up the flag and runs with it.

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[Drew]

So who here is going to put forward the proposed 85cc open rule?

Talking here is great but it doesn't mean anything unless someone picks up the flag and runs with it.

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Any MNZ member motivated to do so.

[F5 Dave]

Don't look at me. I'm not currently racing so I should have no say in the matter.

[speights_bud]

Don't look at me. I'm not currently racing so I should have no say in the matter.Neither was I when I put forward the last proposal. But it started the conversation.

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[TZ350]

So to summaries the MX85 proposal as there are about 50 versions in this thread
F4
MX engines, limited to 85cc no other restrictions
100cc 2t no other restrictions max overbore 110cc if new rule change allowed
125cc 2t carb restriction 130cc max over size (considered dangerous in Australia)
150cc 4t no other restrictions 158.6cc max oversize

Looks good to me in this form , plenty of choices, cream always rises to the top

I like the idea of no restrictions on any normally aspirated 2T engines of 85cc or less. It could simplify a lot of things.

If someone wants to work that into the current rules and unless someone else wants to run with it I am happy to put any proposed rule changes in front of the Auckland Motorcycle Club for them to submit if they like the idea.

[speedpro]

Lose the capacity + overbore wording. Simply state the maximum size and don't mention boring as a capacity increase might be due to an increased stroke. Keep it simple.

There may be a few 4T engines that suddenly become eligible as they start bigger than 150cc so don't comply with current rules, though there is an argument that they might not be eligible anyway due to the word competition somewhere in the promotional literature.

This constantly changing the rules and increasing capacity has to end somewhere. F3 anyone?

[F5 Dave]

I think this thread was purely as topic line, it will go nowhere if everything else is brought in to the discussion. Maybe it won't or shouldn't.

[husaberg]

Lose the capacity + overbore wording. Simply state the maximum size and don't mention boring as a capacity increase might be due to an increased stroke. Keep it simple.

There may be a few 4T engines that suddenly become eligible as they start bigger than 150cc so don't comply with current rules, though there is an argument that they might not be eligible anyway due to the word competition somewhere in the promotional literature.

This constantly changing the rules and increasing capacity has to end somewhere. F3 anyone?

2V to 210cc seems fair brings in a few old honda based buckets

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PCkvCPvDXk

[speedpro]

210cc would nearly make Richban's bucket legal

[Grumph]

Be careful...If it's 210cc for 2V singles, possibly OK. But Wallace's rarely seen 2V/cylinder CB125 twin is already reputedly making over 20hp.

I'm philosophically opposed to forever going bigger - that's what fucked F3 in the end.

[husaberg]

210cc would nearly make Richban's bucket legal


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zXDo4dL7SU


Be careful...If it's 210cc for 2V singles, possibly OK. But Wallace's rarely seen 2V/cylinder CB125 twin is already reputedly making over 20hp.

I'm philosophically opposed to forever going bigger - that's what fucked F3 in the end.

Pretty sure the CB twins should have 4 in total?
Speedpro or Dave will know what the O'Connor twins made?
I am philosophically opposed to Competition engines in F4 and F5 it was mostly the whole point of most of the people interest the class.
I just see it ending in silly pricks buying KTM85 which are ubber dear and ubber high tech and turning it into a $ contest.
In think what f-ed F# was thats what it turned into.

[Grumph]

There appears to have been more money spent on F3 this year than for some time...Two Kramers plus DC on a Wobbly Aprilia/banshee thing....

[husaberg]

There appears to have been more money spent on F3 this year than for some time...Two Kramers plus DC on a Wobbly Aprilia/banshee thing....

Why invest in a class where a rule change might rule a bike obsolete overnight.
Did DC ride a 600/450/3 last year.

[speedpro]

Speedpro or Dave will know what the O'Connor twins made?

I just see it ending in silly pricks buying KTM85 which are ubber dear and ubber high tech and turning it into a $ contest.

The O'Connor twins were good for under 20hp as far as I know, 150cc, big cam, GSXR ignition, exhaust pipe & standard carbs. I think 17-18hp would be a good guess.

You don't have to be a silly prick to spend uber$. My MB big end pin had to cost about $1K in the end and the Wobbly tune and porting was $lots. Mind you that was spread over quite a few years. Same with the FZR, mega $$$, but currently at about the 21 year mark and still a "work-in-progress".

[speedpro]

That is a reasonable comment about the original intention of bucket racing and competition engines, with or without the "s". Anything competition was specifically excluded. There's been a bit of "competition" sneaking in though. The list of "open" components. Letting in a complete competition engine seems to contradict the original intentions. That in itself is no reason to not allow them. What is my concern is the whole package of amendments and where it may or may not end. If an MX85 is allowed I can see that some pit bike engines could be allowed, and why not. If 2 valve pit bike engines are allowed why not lesser tuned 4 valve engines.

It's just a big can of worms and the less tinkering with the rules the better. On that note maybe the MX85 option should be left alone.

[husaberg]

That is a reasonable comment about the original intention of bucket racing and competition engines, with or without the "s". Anything competition was specifically excluded. There's been a bit of "competition" sneaking in though. The list of "open" components. Letting in a complete competition engine seems to contradict the original intentions. That in itself is no reason to not allow them. What is my concern is the whole package of amendments and where it may or may not end. If an MX85 is allowed I can see that some pit bike engines could be allowed, and why not. If 2 valve pit bike engines are allowed why not lesser tuned 4 valve engines.

It's just a big can of worms and the less tinkering with the rules the better. On that note maybe the MX85 option should be left alone.

Yeah granted the original ones i cant find were no "factory Hot up parts cam and other stuff were mentioned " i think it used a word like Yoshimura etc but stuff like reground cams and mx or race carbs were okay.
True but that money was spend by you to stay within the rules where you could have cheated and put in a CR80 crank for the same stroke.
i think the rules should stay the same but as i am not racing and havent for years its moot.
That said i do have a CR80 engine here and it fits in a NF4 chassis rather nicely. far better than a NSR125 or MB100
But considering my arms connection to the rest of my body is rather tenuous and i have two fractured vertebrae atm it isn't an option for me, but JR is 15 in April and he weighs about 50kg and has far more flexible bones.

[F5 Dave]

That is a reasonable comment about the original intention of bucket racing and competition engines, with or without the "s". Anything competition was specifically excluded. There's been a bit of "competition" sneaking in though. The list of "open" components. Letting in a complete competition engine seems to contradict the original intentions. That in itself is no reason to not allow them. What is my concern is the whole package of amendments and where it may or may not end. If an MX85 is allowed I can see that some pit bike engines could be allowed, and why not. If 2 valve pit bike engines are allowed why not lesser tuned 4 valve engines.

It's just a big can of worms and the less tinkering with the rules the better. On that note maybe the MX85 option should be left alone.
And I would agree don't fix what ain't broken. . .

Except; where are the next engines and or bikes coming from?

10 years ago the answer was not a problem.

I'm not suggesting all the other big bore options.

People can buy a GPR bike if they want to spend some real cash.

[husaberg]

And I would agree don't fix what ain't broken. . .

Except; where are the next engines and or bikes coming from?

10 years ago the answer was not a problem.

I'm not suggesting all the other big bore options.

People can buy a GPR bike if they want to spend some real cash.

Thousands of TF125 sitting arround covered in Cow poo.
Do they need more bikes or just more riders.
years ago before the 150's came along there was no one buying newer bikes every few years they were all pretty much all old bikes even then but still competitive forever.

[Grumph]

Thousands of TF125 sitting arround covered in Cow poo.
Do they need more bikes or just more riders.
years ago before the 150's came along there was no one buying newer bikes every few years they were all pretty much all old bikes even then but still competitive forever.

Well....up to a point. I don't want to harp on it but the big track racing in the SI isn't kind to air cooled 2T's. There's no kart tracks down here likely to be available in the forseeable future either. In fact buckets are an endangered species locally...

[husaberg]

Well....up to a point. I don't want to harp on it but the big track racing in the SI isn't kind to air cooled 2T's. There's no kart tracks down here likely to be available in the forseeable future either. In fact buckets are an endangered species locally...

Gm will still have em if anyone bothered to turn up in fact you could ran a meeting here everyweek if you wanted.
The comment about AC air cooled would also apply to WC 2T unfortunately.
I cant see the MNZ not resisting the urge "to be seen as Green" by allowing ethanol in the very near future. which would solve the AC 2t heating

[F5 Dave]

TF125 are no longer competitive or even close. Cycle parts are not suitable either.

[husaberg]

TF125 are no longer competitive or even close. Cycle parts are not suitable either.
to be fair nor is a 85MX bikes cycleparts suitable.
How many HP is that TF you were playing with compared to a std or mild FXR
Also didn't you ride forgo you own bike to ride Yows TFrg?