The cheater MX85 argument. I might be changing my mind.

[F5 Dave]

Yeah I know, I’ve always been the biggest opponent. But I’ve had a rethink in line with the changing times.

Well we had the first outing of the cheating weasel that shall remain nameless. But it’s Sketchy.

The idea was to power a bike with an MX85 in this case a dirty Suzuki that came for just about nix & treated to a new piston & see how it goes for giggles at our non championship club days.

Well he pretty much mostly won from memory (I was pedalling further back on the 50), but there wasn’t that much in it, & lets face it he’d do ok on a CT110.

But to be honest Rich would have cleaned him up, there were no real fast buckets there that day.

Apparently in fresh form with std pipe & carb etc it puts out a fairly peaky 17hp. That surprised me. I’d always assumed about 22hp. In the old days I'd cleaned up quite a few races on a 17hp H100. Times have changed & you'd get no where on that ol H100.

My argument against these engines is that they are competition engines & they would make all the MBs, TSs, KEs, GPs etc obsolete. We’d also enter an escalating arms race that would increase costs.

Little Johnny would get beat on his old YZ & his dad would buy him a late model CR & then Franks Dad would buy a 2014 RM, pull the engine out & insert it into a road chassis & yer away.


But time has moved on. If indeed the power of these things aren’t as high as I’d suspected perhaps it is time to have another look. MX85s haven’t evolved for over a decade. They're just changing decals & pumping out the same thing while they can still sell them to a decreasing market. Heck they still run round slide carbs from the early 80s.

You can buy a complete going less than 10yr old bike for under $2k without really trying & downhill (or uphill) from there. A blown engine is peanuts and can use the carb, rad, ignition & even redo the pipe (Sketchy fit a std one in an RGV frame).

A top end refresh costs less than a hundy & a full engine rebuild can be done for a few hundred. Try that on your popped FXR.

Now that there are very few 30yr ol aircooled 2 stroke engines (ie: me) about we are talking compatibility with FXRs. It appears that there isn’t a big advantage over a std FXR.

So what do they offer & why should we even consider changing the rules that ‘aren’t broken’ ?

I’d offer FXR availability. When were they last sold? The last of the roadbikes are being converted to buckets as they get smashed up & unregistered.

MX85 offer reliable racing on a sensible budget with another stream of motors that are going to be increasingly dumped on the market as 150 4 stroke MX bikes take over.


Preparing to be smacked down by people such as myself.


Go.

[Skunk]

I favour updating the rules. We need sources of new engines without going power and cost hungry.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I'm surprised you guys haven't agreed to use them before now mate.

[scott411]

the latest model KX85 (2014 on) and esp the KTM 85 (2013 on) put out more than 24 hp std, the RM/YZ have not been updated for a while but i would be suprised if they are under 20hp std anyway,

although i agree with your theory that they will be way cheaper to run than a FXR150, they will make everything else obsolete pretty quick,

[mr bucketracer]

it will start standard then you can do this and that. then out to a hunderd ..

[Skunk]

it will start standard then you can do this and that. then out to a hunderd ..

It's only 4 stokes that have done that. 2 strokes aren't broken apparently.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[F5 Dave]

the latest model KX85 (2014 on) and esp the KTM 85 (2013 on) put out more than 24 hp std, the RM/YZ have not been updated for a while but i would be suprised if they are under 20hp std anyway,

although i agree with your theory that they will be way cheaper to run than a FXR150, they will make everything else obsolete pretty quick,

Yes more dyno comparrisions are in order, but claimed hp & what one actually measures are often poles apart.

Clearly as MrBucket mentions we would have to consider ultimate potentual. But a set of restrictions such as below could keep that inline perhaps?

85cc, I'm guessing they are plated so keep them that way (Scott411 might know). barrels are cheap & available. So I'm told.
std carb
and the kicker if required; std ignition cdi. They don't rev high & have a pretty mean curve to stop little johny holding them open & revving to a million, which will happen to every bike. This will stop you building a pipe to rev them to 13 & produce serious power. It will restrict you to about 11,000. This has to restrict hp. Maybe too much to be competitive with one of the GPR 'lightly over' builds, let alone the hotrods they make for themselves.


Just to keep things in perspective a 1/2 opened FXR does about 16hp. A hot FXR does early to mid 20s. My old MB100 does about 27 and so do a few FXRs. I won't claim my MB is reliable, or anywhere near std.

[mr bucketracer]

It's only 4 stokes that have done that. 2 strokes aren't broken apparently.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.2 strokes are always broken unless its ricks :laugh:

[scott411]

Yes more dyno comparrisions are in order, but claimed hp & what one actually measures are often poles apart.

Clearly as MrBucket mentions we would have to consider ultimate potentual. But a set of restrictions such as below could keep that inline perhaps?

85cc, I'm guessing they are plated so keep them that way (Scott411 might know). barrels are cheap & available. So I'm told.
std carb
and the kicker if required; std ignition cdi. They don't rev high & have a pretty mean curve to stop little johny holding them open & revving to a million, which will happen to every bike. This will stop you building a pipe to rev them to 13 & produce serious power. It will restrict you to about 11,000. This has to restrict hp. Maybe too much to be competitive with one of the GPR 'lightly over' builds, let alone the hotrods they make for themselves.


Just to keep things in perspective a 1/2 opened FXR does about 16hp. A hot FXR does early to mid 20s. My old MB100 does about 27 and so do a few FXRs. I won't claim my MB is reliable, or anywhere near std.

yes all the modern ones are plated cylinders, Barrells are available, but I am not sure what you call cheap,

What about the CRF150 (the air cooled one) and KLX140 (which are 144cc) motors, both these models have been out for a while now, and should be coming up second hand cheap, both are not race bikes, and should be similar performance to a FXR

[quallman1234]

Its pretty easy if you think about it to get some rules which will work ok.

Limit it to 80cc MX engines, with a pipe only.
They haven't been 85's for that long. Before then they were 80's.
80's are still super easy to get parts for and i've seen whole bikes which look all good, for 800$.
You have to remember that you won't ever get crazy numbers out of an 80.
As after all they are 80cc.
Say you get it to a standard of a stock Honda RS125 engine.
They are 40hp.... 40*8 = 320hp / Litre

320hp / Litre Divide by 12.5 (to get to 80cc) is Only 25hp, which is a very high state of tune.

I was the other one who rode it that day (as i helped build it with him).
Its seriously not quick at all, and requires a very aggressive racing style compared to my FXR.
Has very little torque and your using all 6 gears at kaitoke to get it moving.
Oh and it vibrates like hell! (But thats more our fault than the engines).


Scott have you had a new KX or KTM on the dyno?
http://www.scalvinipipes.com/KAWA852014.JPG

[quallman1234]

yes all the modern ones are plated cylinders, Barrells are available, but I am not sure what you call cheap,

What about the CRF150 (the air cooled one) and KLX140 (which are 144cc) motors, both these models have been out for a while now, and should be coming up second hand cheap, both are not race bikes, and should be similar performance to a FXR

Both of those are 2 valvers by the way.

[Bert]

Well the easiest way if for a few of us to build a few and test the waters.

Personally I've always supported the idea due to the price and it would also move us closer to the rules across the ditch (who cares about that you may say!!)

Simplistic solution is the dorna controlled ECU and 10 motors a year.... Just kidding.

Standard pipe/28mm carb/stock ignition. Everything else open.



This would encourage a new range of tuners and developments.

[mr bucketracer]

i think now , do what you want with a 80cc competition engine but no competition frames, forks, wheels etc ....buld it your self !! .you can have one without the other

[Skunk]

MX85 in an RS125 frame.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[Bert]

i think now , do what you want with a 80cc competition engine but no competition frames, forks, wheels etc ....buld it your self !! .you can have one without the other

Humm yea that's quite fair, I quite like that idea.
The advantage is weight and gearbox ratios, not max power. As far as I see it.
So weight advantage can be nullified by not allowing competition frames to be used.
We could get an extension to the current rules and make it un available for the GP titles for the next two years and do a full analysis on the effects before changing the rules completely...

Something like this needs to be submitted.

Formula 4.b
Provisional class (non-GP). <85cc competition derived engines.
Stock CDI. limited to maximum 28mm carb.
No aftermarket cylinder kits.
None competition frame, suspension and wheels.
Race tires open.
Note: to be reviewed 2016.


It offers a good starting point for any Jonny to join in.
Maybe we should build a conversion kit...

Also offers up something to do with all the rolling FXR frames sitting in the back of your shed...

[Crasherfromwayback]

i think now , do what you want with a 80cc competition engine but no competition frames, forks, wheels etc ....buld it your self !! .you can have one without the other

Maybe even the std frame to help with costs etc?

[mr bucketracer]

Humm yea that's quite fair, I quite like that idea.

Something like this needs to be submitted.

Formula 4.
Provisional class (non-GP). <85cc competition derived engines.
Stock CDI. limited to maximum 28mm carb.
No aftermarket cylinder kits.
None competition frame, suspension and wheels.
Race tires open.
Note: to be reviewed 2016.


It offers a good starting point for any Jonny to join in.
Maybe we should build a conversion kit...

Also offers up something to do with all the rolling FXR frames sitting in the back of your shed...yep or else it just ends up been a rs 80 and thats not what buckets was ever about

[kel]

85cc max, everthing else open or why bother. You'll never match the 94cc kit Derbis and they won't match the hot FXR's.

[kel]

yep or else it just ends up been a rs 80

we all ready have RS80's

[kel]

Oh and theres a reason the 150 four strokes replaced the 85cc two strokes, same would apply for buckets. The 85 is unlikely to be a winner even when fully worked but it does offer a decent available platform.

Edit: I might be wrong as I just checked the Aus bucket championship points and RS85's 1st and 2nd, but then 150 four strokes for the next four places.

[Bert]

85cc max, everthing else open or why bother. You'll never match the 94cc kit Derbis and they won't match the hot FXR's.

Yea but you would have to say the derbi kits are a little on the grey side of things Kel; under the current rules.
While it has been argued that they are not a performance I mean competition part, they are used as such in some countries..


Oh and theres a reason the 150 four strokes replaced the 85cc two strokes, same would apply for buckets. The 85 is unlikely to be a winner even when fully worked but it does offer a decent available platform.

Yea but hard pressed really to get big numbers out of a road going 156cc four stroke... Lots of hard work to get us to that point (not mine though!! I'm not good enough to have a full GPR150 factory engine)
I do agree a good basic engine to work with. No different than the TF100s back in the day...
But I bet you, putting one in a RS/TZ etc and putting a young gun on it, it would be an equal weapon to the derbi...


http://www.ozbucketracing.com/#

[mr bucketracer]

we all ready have RS80'shonda?.....

[mr bucketracer]

Oh and theres a reason the 150 four strokes replaced the 85cc two strokes, same would apply for buckets. The 85 is unlikely to be a winner even when fully worked but it does offer a decent available platform.who won the gp

[TZ350]

You have to remember that you won't ever get crazy numbers out of an 80. As after all they are 80cc.

Say you get it to a standard of a stock Honda RS125 engine.
They are 40hp.... 40*8 = 320hp / Litre

320hp / Litre Divide by 12.5 (to get to 80cc) is Only 25hp, which is a very high state of tune.

An 80 like you describe is currently cleaning up, up here, and if you run the numbers again with the Aprilias 50hp you get an 80 with 32hp. I would think a reliable 30hp is quite possible from a water cooled 80.

[kel]

who won the gp

The RS80 :lol:

[kel]

Yea but you would have to say the derbi kits are a little on the grey side of things Kel; under the current rules.

No not at all, they are perfectly legal under the current rules. Maybe thats a rule change submission for next year?

[mr bucketracer]

The RS80 :lol:there you go . honda rs frame with a engine that is all but a gp mx engine

[F5 Dave]

Ahh boolshit. That Derbi is a peaky 24-25hp. And a bit more than 80 I think but only a bit.

And comparing it with the Works RSA is just moronic. C'mon, none of us are ever going to get anywhere near that potential are we? I mean really.


The comparison with a 40hp RS125 is a target. Heck the RS125 is a HRC racebike. You're not going to beat that, but if you're real skilled you might get close. By the way most NF4s put on a dyno will muster mid to high 30s only, isn't that right Scott?


The lap record Nat recently set is with the tamer engine, about 21hp. The spread of power is important on some kart tracks & the ability of the rider on a rough track is clearly the key factor here.

[F5 Dave]

The whole frame thing "one or other" is interesting, but I don't think its necessary given the current performance. I like those kind of rules in some classes, 2 valve, FI, water cooling, any 2 of the above sort of thing.

std mx frame will be too restricting for size/geometry & add cost as shocks/forks would be Waaay too soft for a bloater adult. I rode a CR80 at Kaitoki many moons ago. bottomed out & sliding most corners. Knobblies weren't helping much:rolleyes:

[F5 Dave]

Yea but you would have to say the derbi kits are a little on the grey side of things Kel; under the current rules.
While it has been argued that they are not a performance I mean competition part, they are used as such in some countries..

. .
I still struggle with the legality & enforcement issues that could arrise + the pure chequebook racing bolt on ethos, but it potentially affects the 50 class more than the 100s as the cc is in the right ballpark & square engine advantage.

[mr bucketracer]

Ahh boolshit. That Derbi is a peaky 24-25hp. And a bit more than 80 I think but only a bit.

And comparing it with the Works RSA is just moronic. C'mon, none of us are ever going to get anywhere near that potential are we? I mean really.


The comparison with a 40hp RS125 is a target. Heck the RS125 is a HRC racebike. You're not going to beat that, but if you're real skilled you might get close. By the way most NF4s put on a dyno will muster mid to high 30s only, isn't that right Scott?


The lap record Nat recently set is with the tamer engine, about 21hp. The spread of power is important on some kart tracks & the ability of the rider on a rough track is clearly the key factor here.yip nx4 all around 35hp , weight is one of the biggists keys in buckets . nat frame been light engine light and him self . with out that its realy not the go

[TZ350]

Ahh boolshit. That Derbi is a peaky 24-25hp. And a bit more than 80 I think but only a bit.

Yes 24ish and the one I saw on the dyno was not at all peaky, it had a good spread of power and looked well suited to kart tracks.


And comparing it with the Works RSA is just moronic. C'mon, none of us are ever going to get anywhere near that potential are we? I mean really.

At one time people were pretty convinced that a 24mm carb would limit the 125's to 20hp at best but then just like pulling a rabbet from a hat some moron went and pulled 30+hp from a restricted 125.

296924

[Yow Ling]

Nothing wrong with change, if they never changed we wouldnt have FXRs in buckets, maybe the 85cc thing is a few years premature as there is no shortage of FXRs or fxr parts.
I cant see the point in crippling them with stock cdis and small carbs and stock pipes, if you let them in they need to be open everything , porting , pipes, cdis , frames and wheels just like all the other bucket classes , except for the aircooled thing but they just about gone. Crippling them will just lead to cheating keep it simple, if they make fxrs Bclass bikes so be it , new shit comes along every day improve the breed.

so 85cc , competition engines allowed
thats it !

[TZ350]

so 85cc , competition engines allowed thats it !

I already have a KX80 engine in the shed so I am keen ...... :D and there are so many good looking aftermarket cylinders available for Derbes and the like. A credit card and a weeks delivery from Europe, 85cc and 30hp no problem.

[husaberg]

Problem i see they have nice CR gearboxs, they have lovely bearings and rods all designed for racing, all stuff not legal for the other bikes?

[Crasherfromwayback]

The whole frame thing "one or other" is interesting, but I don't think its necessary given the current performance. I like those kind of rules in some classes, 2 valve, FI, water cooling, any 2 of the above sort of thing.

std mx frame will be too restricting for size/geometry & add cost as shocks/forks would be Waaay too soft for a bloater adult. :

Odd you should say that. You see...I managed to beat purpose built grand prix machines at many street circuit races back in the day on a very near stock moto-x bike. One thing I never bothered to modify was the suspension. And yes I know an 80cc moto-x bike's suspension is different to a 500cc moto-x bikes...but so are your tracks vs what I was racing on and the speeds I was/you are doing. Maybe I'm not allowed in this convo as I don't race buckets.

[avgas]

http://www.yamaha-motor.com.au/products/kart-engine/push-start/10-kt100s

[F5 Dave]

Odd you should say that. You see...I managed to beat purpose built grand prix machines at many street circuit races back in the day on a very near stock moto-x bike. One thing I never bothered to modify was the suspension. And yes I know an 80cc moto-x bike's suspension is different to a 500cc moto-x bikes...but so are your tracks vs what I was racing on and the speeds I was/you are doing. Maybe I'm not allowed in this convo as I don't race buckets.

S'more the 80s are designed for 30kg kids

[F5 Dave]

Yes 24ish and the one I saw on the dyno was not at all peaky, it had a good spread of power and looked well suited to kart tracks.



At one time people were pretty convinced that a 24mm carb would limit the 125's to 20hp at best but then just like pulling a rabbet from a hat some moron went and pulled 30+hp from a restricted 125.

296924

But 30hp isn't 54hp is it? It's just not a valid comparison to suggest anything like the RSA is possible
Heck other factories couldn't manage it.

[Ocean1]

Jeez, the convoluted constraints you have to invent just to make everything fair. At least you guys aren't shackled by any need to keep your machines looking like production equipment in order to drive sales while still insisting the race bikes are "cutting edge".

The main knob everyone seems to want to screw with to level the various discrepancies caused by different configurations is capacity. But I've sometimes wondered how you'd regulate a class while leaving capacity completely open.

And what the resulting machinery would look like...

[seymour14]

Jeez, the convoluted constraints you have to invent just to make everything fair. At least you guys aren't shackled by any need to keep your machines looking like production equipment in order to drive sales while still insisting the race bikes are "cutting edge".

The main knob everyone seems to want to screw with to level the various discrepancies caused by different configurations is capacity. But I've sometimes wondered how you'd regulate a class while leaving capacity completely open.

And what the resulting machinery would look like...

For a MotoGP $10millon budget each year, I would probably tidy my bike up for production sale purposes...:msn-wink:

[Crasherfromwayback]

S'more the 80s are designed for 30kg kids

Yeah I hear ya and I appreciate that. But it's a cheaper fix surely than diff chassis etc etc no? Isn't bucket racing supposed to be cheap?

[seymour14]

Yeah I hear ya and I appreciate that. But it's a cheaper fix surely than diff chassis etc etc no? Isn't bucket racing supposed to be cheap?

No reason it can't be both, everybody is having fun out there, regardless what Grade or experience they have. There is a sharp end and a tail end, just like in every form of racing.

I like it because it has retained a deep appreciation of the home grown talent in this country, and the chance to try different things in a practical engineering way.

[mr bucketracer]

just remember there is a gp125 class out there:brick:

[scott411]

Yeah I hear ya and I appreciate that. But it's a cheaper fix surely than diff chassis etc etc no? Isn't bucket racing supposed to be cheap?

have you not ready the thread where someone is building their own supercharger for a bucket, i think compared to that, a frame change is easy

[Mental Trousers]

Allow the 85's without restrictions but the riders must consume 2x pies and 4x beers before each race.

[Ocean1]

Allow the 85's without restrictions but the riders must consume 2x pies and 4x beers before each race.

http://www.beermile.com/faq.beer

"The roots of the beer mile family tree can accurately be traced back to parts of Florida and New England college campuses in the U.S., Hash House Harrier events in Indonesia, and to many places (most notably Ontario) in Canada. The earliest documented races (whose records still exist today) occurred in the late 1980's and early 1990's."

Fucking amateurs, any Vic graduate could tell 'em a few much older stories involving flat warm DB and cold railways pies...

[Crasherfromwayback]

No reason it can't be both, everybody is having fun out there, regardless what Grade or experience they have. There is a sharp end and a tail end, just like in every form of racing.

I like it because it has retained a deep appreciation of the home grown talent in this country, and the chance to try different things in a practical engineering way.

Too true I guess. And fer sure...there are some incredibly talented people out there building shit.


have you not ready the thread where someone is building their own supercharger for a bucket, i think compared to that, a frame change is easy

Lol. Guess so mate!

[CHOPPA]

Im keen to build one, been waiting for a slight change in peoples opinion...

The new KX85 and KTM engines would be pretty smokin so could be good to have a rule of say pre 2005 engines or something

Ill build one, I dont really care if I dont get points etc but atleast with this perceived change of opinion towards them I wont feel like im gonna be burnt on a stake

[F5 Dave]

Piss off, like you need an advantage. Eat some more you skinny prick.

[Kickaha]

I wont feel like im gonna be burnt on a stake
We may still do that anyway

[Crasherfromwayback]

Ill build one,

I'd like to take you on on a stock 85cc KX with sticky tyres. Be fun as fuck.

[jasonu]

What could this rule change lead to? 150MX engines would be the next step http://www.usgpru.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11432

[richban]

What could this rule change lead to? 150MX engines would be the next step http://www.usgpru.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11432

If you allow 85's MX engine's you have to allow 150's They make the same power. And both capable of 30hp. Portland rules Jason. But they also run the bikes with slicks. No big deal really. It would also allow kids that want to step up to development class to run at the front on there bucket. Win win. Lets get it done. Move the sport forward and maybe we will see more young ones take it up.

[cotswold]

If we took on the same rules as across the ditch it could set up a new series, Anzac day races?

[Kickaha]

If we took on the same rules as across the ditch it could set up a new series, Anzac day races?

Realisticly how many people would travel back and forth for something like that?

I haven't looked lately but last time I checked (few years back now) their rules were a lot less open than ours and costs seem to be considerably higher

[seymour14]

Realisticly how many people would travel back and forth for something like that?

I haven't looked lately but last time I checked (few years back now) their rules were a lot less open than ours and costs seem to be considerably higher

But, as the Americans would say, we would have access to a World Title...:niceone:

[F5 Dave]

If you allow 85's MX engine's you have to allow 150's They make the same power. And both capable of 30hp. Portland rules Jason. But they also run the bikes with slicks. No big deal really. It would also allow kids that want to step up to development class to run at the front on there bucket. Win win. Lets get it done. Move the sport forward and maybe we will see more young ones take it up.
You can counter peak hp with spread. You know that. The dyno curves Kyle posted of the KX are a bit higher than I was lead to believe, but there are dynos and dynos. We'd have to see a few charts. If you are selling aftermarket bolt ons you have to show similar starting numbers to those quoted, play the same game as the manufacturers.

[husaberg]

You can counter peak hp with spread. You know that. The dyno curves Kyle posted of the KX are a bit higher than I was lead to believe, but there are dynos and dynos. We'd have to see a few charts. If you are selling aftermarket bolt ons you have to show similar starting numbers to those quoted, play the same game as the manufacturers.

yes issue i see putting aside costs etc is it escalates buckets out of a tuner class based on commuter bikes.....
Which i think was the original point of the class...........

[seymour14]

yes issue i see putting aside costs etc is it escalates buckets out of a tuner class based on commuter bikes.....
Which i think was the original point of the class...........

Yes, reality with GPR's point of view too, their are plenty of Lifans, FXR's and the likes, and will be for years, as soon as we push past these there will be more expense for the average person, not less.

This kind of thinking ruined the F3 class, suddenly your exciting development of 400's gave way to an off the shelf 650 that put everyone else in the weeds. Buy a bike and win the class. No real development or pushing the limits of what you could do. Just chequebook racing.

Buckets at the moment can be anything you are prepared to invest into it. Cheap, and go have some fun, or more expensive and you get to throw some engineering skills into the mix.

If it aint broken, don't fix it...

[Mental Trousers]

If you allow 85's MX engine's you have to allow 150's They make the same power. And both capable of 30hp. Portland rules Jason. But they also run the bikes with slicks. No big deal really. It would also allow kids that want to step up to development class to run at the front on there bucket. Win win. Lets get it done. Move the sport forward and maybe we will see more young ones take it up.

Buckets is a class for tinkerers, not for kids. The young ones that do race backets have someone supporting them that does the tuning, fabricating and building, or at least someone who pays for it all.

The advantages for Buckets are they're relatively inexpensive, for a motorsport they're relatively safe, it's ridiculously competitive and has an excellent community. To get kids involved you have to convince the parents.


yes issue i see putting aside costs etc is it escalates buckets out of a tuner class based on commuter bikes.....
Which i think was the original point of the class...........

Classes evolve over time and the point of them changes. Change isn't a bad thing. The question is; is it time for Buckets in NZ to evolve?


This kind of thinking ruined the F3 class, suddenly your exciting development of 400's gave way to an off the shelf 650 that put everyone else in the weeds. Buy a bike and win the class. No real development or pushing the limits of what you could do. Just chequebook racing.

They must've been slow 400's. Stock SV's are mostly in the back half of the field. Any SV's in the front half of the field have pretty much been to Warren Bridger or someone similar. The class leading SV's are far from stock.

But, F3 is an example of a class that's evolved and will continue to.

[avgas]

yes issue i see putting aside costs etc is it escalates buckets out of a tuner class based on commuter bikes.....
Which i think was the original point of the class...........
Crazy talk. :lol:

Actually I mentioned earlier.....the point of the bucket class is hidden in its name.
Bucket of ______

This was prior to it becoming
"It's not a racebike its a restricted hot rod"

Most the bikes on the track don't even leak oil anymore. :baby:

As someone politely mentioned earlier.....there are 125 and 150 classes already.
However bucket class had changed soo much that you could either stop all changes now or keep going........Either way I very much doubt you will see a Zundapp or Puch at the track anytime soon.
As long as the racing stays fun I say the sky is the limit.

Keep in the back of your minds guys - if your not having fun, or you're feeling bitter.......why are you in Buckets? Plenty of other classes to be bitter in.

[speedpro]

long time listener, first time caller?? porn?

[seymour14]

Still think that you only have to look at the current line up of winning bikes and you will see a varied cross section of bikes. And that is a good thing. And you will only need to look at all the threads to see how much development is happening, and will continue to happen, within the current set of rules.

Changing the rules will only succeed in pissing off people who are constantly having to throw away a perfectly good bike to build (or buy) a new one to fit new rules.

The reason Kawasaki threw in the towel with the MotoGP's, too many changes causing constant expense, making it harder for competitive racing, rather then more inclusive.

Not against change, but change too frequently and it just gets in the too hard basket eventually. :eek5:

[husaberg]

See no need for major changes myself.........
just a tweek to keep the costs down with the 2t consumables ie 52mm pistons.....

std dynos for some of engines in question below
note if they are 22-23 stock std i recon it would be piece of piss to get a few more hp out of them.......
plus they have very close ratio gears and all sorts of parts not allowed under the current rules..

[Kickaha]

for a motorsport they're relatively safe
I don't think it is any safer than any other class of Motorcycle racing, I've had worse and more injuries in Buckets than F1 Sidecars and seen a few others that have done the same

[Mental Trousers]

I don't think it is any safer than any other class of Motorcycle racing, I've had worse and more injuries in Buckets than F1 Sidecars and seen a few others that have done the same

Perceived then. After all, they're not doing 200kph and weigh considerably less.

[avgas]

plus they have very close ratio gears and all sorts of parts not allowed under the current rules..
Raises the question. How does a stock MX85 (except knobly's off) fair up against a stock CG125?

There could be a move back to the traditions of "Ride what you brought". Sure people will tweak the f out of it. But I have seen lots of angst towards people who suggested mini-motards in buckets. Yet that would be a perfect way to balance the field - leaving close ratio boxes and small wheels. Short-shifting, high pick up, low speed MX vs high speed, high stability commuters.

Seems a bit crazy to force everyone to make a "race bike" and then complain their race bike is too fast because they took an engine out of the standard (MX) frame and made it faster.

I imagine there are truckloads of kids out there with mx85's who want to go racing......but no do trails.
They aren't allowed on the speedways. But with road tyres could they be allowed in buckets?

I mean an MX85 really is just the modern equivalent of half the bikes on the start-line in buckets. Apart from mudbugs, chinese crap and sport bikes......there isn't much in the 50-150 space that is road going these days.

[jasonu]

I don't think it is any safer than any other class of Motorcycle racing, I've had worse and more injuries in Buckets than F1 Sidecars and seen a few others that have done the same

Then maybe you should stick to sidecars...

[Grumph]

Then maybe you should stick to sidecars...

i don't have a position on the question - but will point out that NI and SI bucket racing is in the main very different....and the big tracks do tend to have bigger accidents.

the long tracks run on in the SI, in the main encourage somewhat more conservative tuning as the bikes are on full noise for longer _ as dave will testify, this tends to favour the 4 strokes...

It would perhaps be a pleasant change to see for once a race class allow smaller motors, instead of the continual increase in size which as has been pointed out, stuffed F3.

[husaberg]

Raises the question. How does a stock MX85 (except knobly's off) fair up against a stock CG125?



I mean an MX85 really is just the modern equivalent of half the bikes on the start-line in buckets. Apart from mudbugs, chinese crap and sport bikes......there isn't much in the 50-150 space that is road going these days.

No a MX85 is not a modern eq of a bucket, it a fully fledged production MX bike build from the ground up in a factory to be a competition bike.
It is exactly the kind of engine deliberately excluded in the rules.
Letting them in the class becomes cheque book racer class for lil johnies...........
plus it begs the question, if they become legal, does that also follow other competition parts are then ok for the other bikes say Sleeved NX4 b kit cylinders
TZ125 crankshafts.......CR125 Gearboxs

[richban]

Yes, reality with GPR's point of view too, their are plenty of Lifans, FXR's and the likes, and will be for years, as soon as we push past these there will be more expense for the average person, not less.

This kind of thinking ruined the F3 class, suddenly your exciting development of 400's gave way to an off the shelf 650 that put everyone else in the weeds. Buy a bike and win the class. No real development or pushing the limits of what you could do. Just chequebook racing.

Buckets at the moment can be anything you are prepared to invest into it. Cheap, and go have some fun, or more expensive and you get to throw some engineering skills into the mix.

If it aint broken, don't fix it...

Sorry buddy but that just does not stack up.

Why do you say more expense. If someone finds a cheap MX engine and whacks it in a frame. What is the difference between that and an FXR engine. Except that the FXR engine will cost 800 bucks. Oh and be just as fucked.

As far as I can see F3 is still working fine. The numbers go up and down over the years and what do you know still a 400 or 450 ZXR is running at the front at the Nats.

Buckets will still be what you are prepared to invest. Thats the beauty of the class. Allowing MX engines will not change much at all. I will still run my heavy 27hp FXR. And still get smoked by better riders with less power. If someone wants to drop all there coin on a flash bike and engine then so fucken what! They still have to ride the bloody thing.

If people want to play with engines then ummmmmmm. Guess what, they still can.

People need to just step back and think about the sport not about themselves. Its not a big deal.

[speedpro]

22ish hp would see them doing OK at buckets but to win would still need a good rider and chassis setup. The 85mx engine isn't going to immediately make everything, or anything that isn't already, obsolete. My thinking is mx85 completely stock including carb but not pipe in any chassis. Completely stock is easy to police. It would actually make buckets more competitive as more people would be able to get their hands on 22hp, and probably at a lower cost/effort. With all the dynos around you could even require them to be dynoed to check peak horsepower.

[mr bucketracer]

Sorry buddy but that just does not stack up.

Why do you say more expense. If someone finds a cheap MX engine and whacks it in a frame. What is the difference between that and an FXR engine. Except that the FXR engine will cost 800 bucks. Oh and be just as fucked.

As far as I can see F3 is still working fine. The numbers go up and down over the years and what do you know still a 400 or 450 ZXR is running at the front at the Nats.

Buckets will still be what you are prepared to invest. Thats the beauty of the class. Allowing MX engines will not change much at all. I will still run my heavy 27hp FXR. And still get smoked by better riders with less power. If someone wants to drop all there coin on a flash bike and engine then so fucken what! They still have to ride the bloody thing.

If people want to play with engines then ummmmmmm. Guess what, they still can.

People need to just step back and think about the sport not about themselves. Its not a big deal.just remember fxr's cost stuff all until it was used as a bucket , good bike been just stick some slicks on it with i bit of extra work and go racing . as for f3 that class was aways big .(70hp bikes) went to 85+hp sv650 and 2 seconds faster a lap .. ever second zxr that went to a 450 went bang after that until 10k more was spend on it

[husaberg]

22ish hp would see them doing OK at buckets but to win would still need a good rider and chassis setup. The 85mx engine isn't going to immediately make everything, or anything that isn't already, obsolete. My thinking is mx85 completely stock including carb but not pipe in any chassis. Completely stock is easy to police. It would actually make buckets more competitive as more people would be able to get their hands on 22hp, and probably at a lower cost/effort. With all the dynos around you could even require them to be dynoed to check peak horsepower.

easy to police? but who pays to police it?
Gee any sneaky bugger could do a cdi rejig with a switch to swap back to std config.

[seymour14]

Sorry buddy but that just does not stack up.

Why do you say more expense. If someone finds a cheap MX engine and whacks it in a frame. What is the difference between that and an FXR engine. Except that the FXR engine will cost 800 bucks. Oh and be just as fucked.

As far as I can see F3 is still working fine. The numbers go up and down over the years and what do you know still a 400 or 450 ZXR is running at the front at the Nats.

Buckets will still be what you are prepared to invest. Thats the beauty of the class. Allowing MX engines will not change much at all. I will still run my heavy 27hp FXR. And still get smoked by better riders with less power. If someone wants to drop all there coin on a flash bike and engine then so fucken what! They still have to ride the bloody thing.

If people want to play with engines then ummmmmmm. Guess what, they still can.

People need to just step back and think about the sport not about themselves. Its not a big deal.

I just mentioned the above because it did ruin F3 for a lot of people, and by using these MX motors we are opening that horrible debate on competition parts, which may end up in open slather if we're not careful.

[Bert]

I just mentioned the above because it did ruin F3 for a lot of people, and by using these MX motors we are opening that horrible debate on competition parts, which may end up in open slather if we're not careful.

Right, back from racing (that's right racing, undertaken the sport)..
Great event at taupo, in which we had a ball of a time mixing it up with the 250...

Not sure why we a paralleling F3 in this debate. When the 650 we let in, many didn't want them. The same group we also slowly stepping away. Numbers were down and the opportunity was taken to provide a step up class to address the significant hole to 600s. Many new riders didn't want a 10+ Year old 400/250 nor had the skill to work them up for racing, the demographic has changed; a shame maybe but that's life. Not everyone are engineers or can afford the work. The 650 offered an solution for the long term.

85cc in F4; I agree with Speedpro & Rich.
Are we ready for change? Is it needed?
Does it make any significant difference? Is there a cost benefit?
What effect To our current culture will this change? It's a great class with a great group of people will this change it?
Can the rules be controlled enough to limit potential foul play across current motors and current rules?
Buckets for junior development? Or old men having fun? Which one?

[Skunk]

Who polices the current rules?
When was the last time a 100 was checked to see if it was 104 or less?
We don't police the current rules so do the same with this.


If it ain't smokin' - it's broken.

[Pumba]

Buckets for junior development? Or old men having fun? Which one?

Only comment I have felt worth replying to. My answer is neither. It is a class to race in and it is whatever one wishes to make it, not to be defined by others. Personally I hate it when classes get pigeon holed, like you are meant to be continuously moving forward through a predefined class structure and everyone in NZ should be aiming to ride a super bike. Personally I know I don't have big enough balls to do so.

As I have made that comment I may as well through my $0.02 n the ring on the engine. I still cant make up my mind, was dead against now not so much but still not feeling positive as I feel the negatives will out way the benefits at this time. I don't think it is a sure thing that Buckets will head in this direction but it is a high possibility, only question is around timing.

My gut tells me now is not the time.

[Bert]

Only comment I have felt worth replying to. My answer is neither. It is a class to race in and it is whatever one wishes to make it, not to be defined by others. Personally I hate it when classes get pigeon holed..........

My gut tells me now is not the time.

I hoped someone would answer that in that way.


While I've held a view on this for a long time, F4 is in great shape and can sustain under the current structure. F5 is on the comeback and sidecars are making headway.

But is there an opportunity being missed, and a chance to expose more people to the sport?

On the side, we had a number of people popping over and asking what the F these bikes were and that they looked like a heap of fun. Mostly car guys (and a few drifters: I do separate them)... Actually had questions around, can I uses little johnnies 85cc engine and come racing, a slightly different twist on the question. Dads thinking about using their kids out grown bike for something else.

[sonic_v]

If you allow 85's MX engine's you have to allow 150's They make the same power.

Standard they do not make the same power. None of the 85's make more than 20 hp standard, with some coming in at about 18hp. The 150's come with 22 hp standard and a linear power curve from 5000 rpm. Their advantage is such that the AMA in the states have banned them from AMA sanctioned 85cc events. See second paragraph here. http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/123/11442/Motorcycle-Article/2012-Honda-CRF150R-Expert-Review.aspx

The 150's have a bore and stroke of 66 x 43.7. I suspect that none of your present 150's in buckets have a bore size as large as that and as power is directly proportional to bore area in a four stroke, you would make all your 4 strokes redundant if the honda crf150 were allowed to be used.

I do however think it would be an excellent idea to allow the 85cc moto engines in. They all give 21/22 hp with a good pipe before any tuning. With tuning they all give about 24hp with a decent powerband. The good thing is that there is no standout engine. They all have almost identical port timings durations of 186 exhaust and 126 transfers.

An other point in favour of the 85cc engines is that there has been no development in the past 25 years. As an example suzuki introduced the first crankcase reed rm80 in 1989. That engine did not change until it got an 85cc cylinder in about 2002. The bottom end has not changed in 25 years.

Yamaha introduced the first crankcase reed yz80 in 1993. Again, apart from a small capacity increase this engine has not changed in 21 years.

Hence there is absolutely no need to have a recent engine as it will offer no advantage.

As an example of how reliable the engines are, the recommended service time for the crank in a TM 85 is 120 hrs. I help a young lad on one of these and he is presently on 70 hrs from new with no bottom end work done to date.

[avgas]

No a MX85 is not a modern eq of a bucket, it a fully fledged production MX bike build from the ground up in a factory to be a competition bike.
It is exactly the kind of engine deliberately excluded in the rules.
Letting them in the class becomes cheque book racer class for lil johnies...........
plus it begs the question, if they become legal, does that also follow other competition parts are then ok for the other bikes say Sleeved NX4 b kit cylinders
TZ125 crankshafts.......CR125 Gearboxs
a) fully fledged for what medium? I don't see any MX85 motards out there......
What is the top speed of a 85 vs a CBR125? How successful would a KX85 be in stock trim against the current bucket race-spec bike?

b) Wait is that not happening now? Last time I checked the bucket line up, there were more whispers and secrets than the popes choir boys.
Hell it had to reach boiling point until someone actually pointed out that MX engines are illegal!
Imagine how many other "part skeletons" exist in the pits.....


Who polices the current rules?
When was the last time a 100 was checked to see if it was 104 or less?
We don't police the current rules so do the same with this.
But with proper policing - middle aged men can't get their knickers in a twist about a little bike class.
"He's cheating" they will say about the next person who thought outside the box of the rules (which state you can't have competition engines......just parts of a competition bike).
Rather than riding what they brought and having a bit of fun.

Without policing we are left the Kangaroo court which is currently in session.

[Kickaha]

The 150's have a bore and stroke of 66 x 43.7. I suspect that none of your present 150's in buckets have a bore size as large as that
Mine does

"He's cheating" they will say about the next person who thought outside the box of the rules
Yes but they wont have the balls to put a proper protest in and sort it out

[scott411]

Standard they do not make the same power. None of the 85's make more than 20 hp standard, with some coming in at about 18hp. The 150's come with 22 hp standard and a linear power curve from 5000 rpm. Their advantage is such that the AMA in the states have banned them from AMA sanctioned 85cc events. See second paragraph here. http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/123/11442/Motorcycle-Article/2012-Honda-CRF150R-Expert-Review.aspx

The 150's have a bore and stroke of 66 x 43.7. I suspect that none of your present 150's in buckets have a bore size as large as that and as power is directly proportional to bore area in a four stroke, you would make all your 4 strokes redundant if the honda crf150 were allowed to be used.

I do however think it would be an excellent idea to allow the 85cc moto engines in. They all give 21/22 hp with a good pipe before any tuning. With tuning they all give about 24hp with a decent powerband. The good thing is that there is no standout engine. They all have almost identical port timings durations of 186 exhaust and 126 transfers.

An other point in favour of the 85cc engines is that there has been no development in the past 25 years. As an example suzuki introduced the first crankcase reed rm80 in 1989. That engine did not change until it got an 85cc cylinder in about 2002. The bottom end has not changed in 25 years.

Yamaha introduced the first crankcase reed yz80 in 1993. Again, apart from a small capacity increase this engine has not changed in 21 years.

Hence there is absolutely no need to have a recent engine as it will offer no advantage.

As an example of how reliable the engines are, the recommended service time for the crank in a TM 85 is 120 hrs. I help a young lad on one of these and he is presently on 70 hrs from new with no bottom end work done to date.

your information is wrong, the 150 is back in the 85 class as of last year in the USA amateur nationals,

also the YZ85 is the oldest engine around now, and the only one without a exhaust power valve, (the CR85 has not been made since 2007) it still has very good top end power but no where near the midrange of the KTM or Kawasaki 85 which were new in 2013 and 2014 respectively,

[F5 Dave]

Well Husi's dyno curve post by itself make me think - No. - Too good straight of the bat.


Sonic's is more in line with what I was lead to believe.



Don't suppose an 85 has ever been dyno'd o the GPR dyno?

[kel]

Well Husi's dyno curve post by itself make me think

Oh come on, its a classic Husabender.
What a shame I've missed all the fun of this thread while away racing. To think I could have been sitting at my computer debating this instead of ripping around Taupo and having a great weekend away with like minded people. SLACKERS!

[F5 Dave]

My kids 5th Birthday, no way was I going to get away with missing that, and I went riding on Mothers day so its not all bad.

Besides my 100 is still where I left it after the GP, presumably with considerably less gearbox oil as it was smoking for last 1/2 of GP apparently (I was too busy trying to stay on).

[richban]

The 150's have a bore and stroke of 66 x 43.7. I suspect that none of your present 150's in buckets have a bore size as large as that and as power is directly proportional to bore area in a four stroke, you would make all your 4 strokes redundant if the honda crf150 were allowed to be used.



Ummmm. You are talking bullshit. Its hard to get any idea of what is on the track and what power the bikes are making from the EU.

[husaberg]

Well Husi's dyno curve post by itself make me think - No. - Too good straight of the bat.


Sonic's is more in line with what I was lead to believe.

Don't suppose an 85 has ever been dyno'd o the GPR dyno?


I just posted what was on the net (no filtering) all measured on the same dyno no less.
If this is stock standard, with a decent pipe a bit of squish and some gentle massaging who knows?
I just struggle to get past the fact they are designed as a competition engine and have factory close ratios.

[F5 Dave]

And I have always struggled with that. I don't want to see a competition engine that would make my bike obsolete.

The running costs make them attractive, much more attractive than they were 10 years ago.

But there are dynos & dynos. If your from the net curves are truly indicative (and thanks for posting) then I'm a bit worried. If they are spiced by a optimistic dyno then there needs to be some control.

The problem with dirtbikes is they have bumpy tyres so just running them up on the dyno isn't that easy. The other factor is MX is surrounded by huge swaths of bullshot marketing to get Dad to part with his spare money so Junior can achieve Minibike glory and make up for his own inadequacies. Heck if my kids start MX I'll probably be as pulled in to tuning them as I am with buckets. Maybe that's a reason to keep them away from bikes as I don't have time enough & it would cut deeply into my riding. My Dad didn't stop playing golf to buy me a YZ80 & take me to meetings.

Anyhoo, there isn't a heap of dyno curve out there, or maybe there are some more. Just would love to see where they were at on a industry std old school dynojet.

[Drew]

industry std old school dynojet.Why? I'd have thought you would want consistency.

[husaberg]

And I have always struggled with that. I don't want to see a competition engine that would make my bike obsolete.

The running costs make them attractive, much more attractive than they were 10 years ago.

But there are dynos & dynos. If your from the net curves are truly indicative (and thanks for posting) then I'm a bit worried. If they are spiced by a optimistic dyno then there needs to be some control.

The problem with dirtbikes is they have bumpy tyres so just running them up on the dyno isn't that easy. The other factor is MX is surrounded by huge swaths of bullshot marketing to get Dad to part with his spare money so Junior can achieve Minibike glory and make up for his own inadequacies. Heck if my kids start MX I'll probably be as pulled in to tuning them as I am with buckets. Maybe that's a reason to keep them away from bikes as I don't have time enough & it would cut deeply into my riding. My Dad didn't stop playing golf to buy me a YZ80 & take me to meetings.

Anyhoo, there isn't a heap of dyno curve out there, or maybe there are some more. Just would love to see where they were at on a industry std old school dynojet.

Yeah i know what you are saying about dyno and Dyno's i had a look came up with this.

Frank Nye from Engines Only ( www.xr100.com ) is developing products for the new CRF150R and he posted this dyno run of a bone stock 150 with 3 hours on it. It's pretty impressive stock.
http://xr100.com/dyno%20charts/150RB%20stock.jpg
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa323/johnziehl/013.jpg
http://images.motorcycle-usa.com/PhotoGallerys/12_honda_crf150rb_hp_torque.jpg
http://www.xr100.com/dyno%20charts/CRF150R2694.jpg
https://www.hindle.com/Dyno_Charts/OFF-ROAD/HONDA/2007CRF150_StockVSHindleFull.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/williamsmotowerx/crf150mod.jpg

The mini MX in NZ has great rules, the bikes have to be totally stock other than jetting and tires and a few bling bits......
Don't worry though, the gear and the entries the travel accommodation and the consumables will keep you poor enough

[richban]

Yeah i know what you are saying about dyno and Dyno's i had a look came up with this.
rank Nye from Engines Only ( www.xr100.com ) is developing products for the new CRF150R and he posted this dyno run of a bone stock 150 with 3 hours on it. It's pretty impressive stock.
http://xr100.com/dyno%20charts/150RB%20stock.jpg

Yeah but stock is a very well sorted stock. The extra 5 will not come cheap and easy. Who cares anyway. The new 85's make that and have a 6 speed box. Not sure why you would look at a dyno graph. 400per litre and 200per litre is all I have to say. Is this going to be another one of those ooooooh its not fair coz the 4 strokes are 4 strokes and the 2 strokes are not as fast. ooooooooh! Poor me, its all about me. ahhhhhh I am old and stubborn. ooooohh I don't even ride anyway. Ahhhhhh oooooh ahhhh ooohh.

[Skunk]

Somebody add a poll: mx85 in or out. Sort the restrictions (if any) after that.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[husaberg]

Yeah but stock is a very well sorted stock. The extra 5 will not come cheap and easy. Who cares anyway. The new 85's make that and have a 6 speed box. Not sure why you would look at a dyno graph. 400per litre and 200per litre is all I have to say. Is this going to be another one of those ooooooh its not fair coz the 4 strokes are 4 strokes and the 2 strokes are not as fast. ooooooooh! Poor me, its all about me. ahhhhhh I am old and stubborn. ooooohh I don't even ride anyway. Ahhhhhh oooooh ahhhh ooohh.

All true, but HP is only part of the equation in racing, which is why the four strokes still win more so than the 2 strokes with the current rules.
I am not sure what the 09 and up KTM85 makes but if it is anything like the new ktm50 and 65 it is pretty much a case reed Aprilia......
Some have suggested the 85 haven't changed in years BULLSHIT the newer KTM85 and 105 puts lie to this


The stock for a MX bike i would say is detuned 15-20% for ridabilty on dirt compared to a Road racer spec.


Somebody add a poll: mx85 in or out. Sort the restrictions (if any) after that.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

How the heck can you have a poll when you will sort out the details on what people are voting for after........

[Skunk]

No point arguing details if you don't know if it has a chance to get through. The poll is an indication not a binding agreement. The argument can go on and on - while most don't want it. Cut to the point then develop.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[kel]

Heres a dyno graph for you. A 94cc bolt up Derbi kit
297029
Yep that's 30hp. Why worry about an 85cc motocrosser when you can all ready buy and use one of these.
The 2 stroke platforms are pretty much gone (other than those stock piled by ESE), and the old air coolers that make decent power are a major safety hazard. The 85's are a great idea, it will make the sport more attractive and available to new comers, keep the tinkers amused, and make the sport safer. Im all for it, and 4 stroke boys can have their CRF's too!
Let go of the past and embrace the future, Kumbaya my brothers.

[richban]

Heres a dyno graph for you. A 94cc bolt up Derbi kit
297029
Yep that's 30hp. Why worry about 85cc motocross when you can all ready buy and use one of these.


But they are for racing and are marketed for racing. So illegal.

[kel]

But they are for racing and are marketed for racing. So illegal.

The rules don't give a rats arse about how they are marketed. They are after market parts for an AM6, a non-competition motorcycle sold in the millions.
Or do you mean the motocrosser? That one is illegal.

[Drew]

The rules don't give a rats arse about how they are marketed. They are after market parts for an AM6, a non-competition motorcycle sold in the millions.This should be fun. Someone used the same argument for those pit bike things. A better motor was marketed as a 'race motor' and they were deemed not legal by the majority.

[speedpro]

The 150's have a bore and stroke of 66 x 43.7. I suspect that none of your present 150's in buckets have a bore size as large as that

One of course is way bigger than that

[kel]

Someone used the same argument for those pit bike things.
Ha, no one said we couldn't randomly discriminate against others. Johnny motard thinking he could race with us, the cheek of it.

[husaberg]

No point arguing details if you don't know if it has a chance to get through. The poll is an indication not a binding agreement. The argument can go on and on - while most don't want it. Cut to the point then develop.




No point in having a poll if what you are voting for is unclear?
Unscrupulous people have been known to use poll results to prove it is what the people want..........
if you have a poll say something like let in MX85 restricted, let in mx85 unrestricted, staus quo or free for all 103.5 ish vs 150 whatever.....

[quallman1234]

And I have always struggled with that. I don't want to see a competition engine that would make my bike obsolete.

The running costs make them attractive, much more attractive than they were 10 years ago.

But there are dynos & dynos. If your from the net curves are truly indicative (and thanks for posting) then I'm a bit worried. If they are spiced by a optimistic dyno then there needs to be some control.

The problem with dirtbikes is they have bumpy tyres so just running them up on the dyno isn't that easy. The other factor is MX is surrounded by huge swaths of bullshot marketing to get Dad to part with his spare money so Junior can achieve Minibike glory and make up for his own inadequacies. Heck if my kids start MX I'll probably be as pulled in to tuning them as I am with buckets. Maybe that's a reason to keep them away from bikes as I don't have time enough & it would cut deeply into my riding. My Dad didn't stop playing golf to buy me a YZ80 & take me to meetings.

Anyhoo, there isn't a heap of dyno curve out there, or maybe there are some more. Just would love to see where they were at on a industry std old school dynojet.

We have had our one on the dyno @ ~16hp (cant quite remember will get glen to post the curve tomorrow). Our dyno has a tendancy to run a couple hp below a dynojet.
In real life on a kart track it was faster than a stock FXR but couldnt compete with a hot fxr.
They are also not the easiest engines to put in a road chassis as the engine mount is part of the swingarm pivot. So nothing really lines up greatly.
Stock RM85 with new top end.

[husaberg]

We have had our one on the dyno @ ~16hp (cant quite remember will get glen to post the curve tomorrow). Our dyno has a tendancy to run a couple hp below a dynojet.
In real life on a kart track it was faster than a stock FXR but couldnt compete with a hot fxr.
They are also not the easiest engines to put in a road chassis as the engine mount is part of the swingarm pivot. So nothing really lines up greatly.
Stock RM85 with new top end.

out of interest anyone ever dynoed a Stock MB100 or GP125?

[quallman1234]

out of intesst anyone ever dynoed a Stock MB100 or GP125?

Not yet, but Malcolm Nabbs just brought a stock MB100, so hopefully we can get that on there before he modifies it!

We have done a stock AX100! ~6.5hp That was a laugh!
I have a cheap ZXR250C for the road i've just got wof/reg (cost me 800!). So will try put that on there as well. I'll be surpised if its not over 30hp they have some power! They claim 40hp

[cotswold]

out of intesst anyone ever dynoed a Stock MB100 or GP125?

Stock GP125 with a slightly better carb 14 on TZ's Dyno

[F5 Dave]

GP125 needed a washer to restrict it for uk 12 hp rules. 13 I believe.

[F5 Dave]

Somebody add a poll: mx85 in or out. Sort the restrictions (if any) after that.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

TBH I don't know which way I would vote at the moment.

[CM2005]

If you allow 85's MX engine's you have to allow 150's They make the same power. And both capable of 30hp. Portland rules Jason. But they also run the bikes with slicks. No big deal really. It would also allow kids that want to step up to development class to run at the front on there bucket. Win win. Lets get it done. Move the sport forward and maybe we will see more young ones take it up.

I'm 100% in agreement with this. Should be allowed chassis mods to let you have proper wheel sizes and get rid of the heavy mx USD forks.

The argument about CR gboxes is mostly invalid. FXR's use 2 gears at most kart tracks, so why would six on an 80 be any better if the final drive was similar? They have 5/8 of f all torque so you have to keep them singing.

MX80 or 85cc engines
STANDARD Carb body and slide = no machining
Exhaust open
Chassis open
Rest of the rules as per MNZ rules for F4


Stock GP125 with a slightly better carb 14 on TZ's Dyno

My standard GP125 made 6 on TZ350's dyno! It needed a bit of fiddling and a pipe, some carb mods and a gentle port polish to just make 15

Get it done

http://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/regulations/form-to-make-a-rule-change---clubs.pdf?sfvrsn=2

[husaberg]

I'm 100% in agreement with this. Should be allowed chassis mods to let you have proper wheel sizes and get rid of the heavy mx USD forks.

The argument about CR gboxes is mostly invalid. FXR's use 2 gears at most kart tracks, so why would six on an 80 be any better if the final drive was similar? They have 5/8 of f all torque so you have to keep them singing.

MX80 or 85cc engines
STANDARD Carb body and slide = no machining
Exhaust open
Chassis open
Rest of the rules as per MNZ rules for F4



My standard GP125 made 6 on TZ350's dyno! It needed a bit of fiddling and a pipe, some carb mods and a gentle port polish to just make 15

Get it done

http://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/regulations/form-to-make-a-rule-change---clubs.pdf?sfvrsn=2

The point re the gearboxs alludes to the fact that the rules say
"Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road
Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted."
irrespective of the silly S
The point i was attempting to make is it is very very easy to slip in a Gearbox from some CR80's into a MB100 or H100.
It is a advantage to do so, as the MB5 6 speed is actually fairly wide ratios ......
But it is illegal to do so. So most people don't.
Yet by the same token if you let in the MX80's or 85's it is legal for them to run these same gearboxs.
Same goes for say conrods and big end bearings.

Those in favor are saying it is all about cost....
Yet, again these same cheap parts are not allowed to be used by the rest of the competitors.......
it seems the logic is faulty.
Not all buckets race on Kart tracks.

Someone mentioned about them being hard to fit to another chassis, their layout actually makes them easier to fit to a RS chassis than most other engines.....

[Henk]

My concern is that to do this properly involves more than just saying "OK MX 80/85 engines are in" husaberg a point regarding the gearboxes is valid and the tip of the iceberg.
If we are going to allow MX engines is there also a case for kart parts or whole engines?
Do we allow aftermarket cylinders to keep rebuild costs down? If so where does that put the race spec malosi etc parts for the aprillia and derbi engines?

[F5 Dave]

My head's hurting. Maybe my mind is changing back to its previous curmudgeon ways:scratch:

[koba]

We have had our one on the dyno @ ~16hp (cant quite remember will get glen to post the curve tomorrow). Our dyno has a tendancy to run a couple hp below a dynojet.


About the same as mine on the same Dyno wasn't it?



Glen and Chopper wanted to build buckets with MX engines.
Glen did, and had a go on it at the track.

Would allowing these bring hoards of new entries in to buckets? I doubt it very much.

The bike still has to be 'built' so it doesn't have the same 'ready package' attraction of an FXR.
I've heard many tunes on "I would build a bucket if.." violin, none of the 'if's' being fulfilled will have ever resulted in a completed bike.
Glen is is a doer, he has already done it, as illegal as it is.

In reality I think you would end up with:

Some new people that would have built/purchased a bucket regardless of current or revised rules taking these up.
Some people with existing buckets may switch to them and start over with development, possibly for a gain in speed, certainly for a loss in money.
Some people will still claim "I was keen to get in to buckets but now that these MX85's are in there" and still never actually come racing.



Buckets is fundamentally based on non-competition engines, this is a factor that seems to keep it 'grass roots' from going down the Karting or MX paths, as well as allowing massive scope for innovation and keeping many options open.

I for one am a hell of a lot more interested in Glens supercharger project than his cheaterbike.

The rules do need to change with the times, the way to change with the times in this case is to keep up with the current crop of engines in the class, which is currently (Road) 150 4 strokes. I can't see where this broken, I still see plenty of $800 FXR's, I purchased one myself a while ago.

Really, if the objective to all this is to make buckets cheaper and more easily available it is simply a case of addressing any supply/demand issues with the desired engines and importing a container load of FXR or CBR's from south east Asia.

One could even make money in the process.

[Pumba]

......issues with the desired engines and importing a container load of FXR or CBR's from south east Asia.

One could even make money in the process.

I have thought about that in the past. Never got past the thinking portion of the equation though.

[kel]

Those in favor are saying it is all about cost....
You are a classic. Do you actually stop to read ? -

"The 2 stroke platforms are pretty much gone (other than those stock piled by ESE), and the old air coolers that make decent power are a major safety hazard. The 85's are a great idea, it will make the sport more attractive and available to new comers, keep the tinkers amused, and make the sport safer. Im all for it, and 4 stroke boys can have their CRF's too!"

Oh wait if you play that quote backwards at half speed you can just make out "its all about cost"

[kel]

In reality I think you would end up with:
Some people with existing buckets may switch to them and start over with development, possibly for a gain in speed, certainly for a loss in money.


Yep I would. I wouldn't expect a gain in speed, but would expect a motor that would hold together and that I can still source parts for.
As far as your four stroke suggestion, its well founded but only worthy of a SHAME ON YOU. And shame on the evil Honda for their brain washing ways.

[speedpro]

If we are going to allow MX engines is there also a case for kart parts or whole engines?

Pistons are already open and I use KT100 pistons legally. I have compared good legal little end bearings to KT100 little end bearings and could not tell the difference looking at them. You would have to use the whole complete engine(s)(just for Husa) or nothing. Using a cylinder on another bottom end or a CR gearbox in a MB should not be allowed. I'm still thinking no mods allowed. "If" somebody decided to police the rules it would be easy to check. Maybe using a later cylinder of the same capacity to allow for replacements. We could take a leaf out of the Aussie rule book and have homologated engines, basically any freely available 80/85MX engine.

[husaberg]

You are a classic. Do you actually stop to read ? -

"The 2 stroke platforms are pretty much gone (other than those stock piled by ESE), and the old air coolers that make decent power are a major safety hazard. The 85's are a great idea, it will make the sport more attractive and available to new comers, keep the tinkers amused, and make the sport safer. Im all for it, and 4 stroke boys can have their CRF's too!"

Oh wait if you play that quote backwards at half speed you can just make out "its all about cost"
Did you stop to consider i was not talking about you.............










But time has moved on. If indeed the power of these things aren’t as high as I’d suspected perhaps it is time to have another look. MX85s haven’t evolved for over a decade. They're just changing decals & pumping out the same thing while they can still sell them to a decreasing market. Heck they still run round slide carbs from the early 80s.

You can buy a complete going less than 10yr old bike for under $2k without really trying & downhill (or uphill) from there. A blown engine is peanuts and can use the carb, rad, ignition & even redo the pipe (Sketchy fit a std one in an RGV frame).

A top end refresh costs less than a hundy & a full engine rebuild can be done for a few hundred. Try that on your popped FXR.

Now that there are very few 30yr ol aircooled 2 stroke engines (ie: me) about we are talking compatibility with FXRs. It appears that there isn’t a big advantage over a std FXR.

So what do they offer & why should we even consider changing the rules that ‘aren’t broken’ ?

I’d offer FXR availability. When were they last sold? The last of the roadbikes are being converted to buckets as they get smashed up & unregistered.

MX85 offer reliable racing on a sensible budget with another stream of motors that are going to be increasingly dumped on the market as 150 4 stroke MX bikes take over.
.


the latest model KX85 (2014 on) and esp the KTM 85 (2013 on) put out more than 24 hp std, the RM/YZ have not been updated for a while but i would be suprised if they are under 20hp std anyway,

although i agree with your theory that they will be way cheaper to run than a FXR150, they will make everything else obsolete pretty quick,


yes all the modern ones are plated cylinders, Barrells are available, but I am not sure what you call cheap,

What about the CRF150 (the air cooled one) and KLX140 (which are 144cc) motors, both these models have been out for a while now, and should be coming up second hand cheap, both are not race bikes, and should be similar performance to a FXR




Seems a bit crazy to force everyone to make a "race bike" and then complain their race bike is too fast because they took an engine out of the standard (MX) frame and made it faster.

I imagine there are truckloads of kids out there with mx85's who want to go racing......but no do trails.
They aren't allowed on the speedways. But with road tyres could they be allowed in buckets?

I mean an MX85 really is just the modern equivalent of half the bikes on the start-line in buckets. Apart from mudbugs, chinese crap and sport bikes......there isn't much in the 50-150 space that is road going these days.


. My thinking is mx85 completely stock including carb but not pipe in any chassis. Completely stock is easy to police. It would actually make buckets more competitive as more people would be able to get their hands on 22hp, and probably at a lower cost/effort. With all the dynos around you could even require them to be dynoed to check peak horsepower.


Right, back from racing (that's right racing, undertaken the sport)..

Does it make any significant difference? Is there a cost benefit?



. Actually had questions around, can I uses little johnnies 85cc engine and come racing, a slightly different twist on the question. Dads thinking about using their kids out grown bike for something else.

As an aside if there was a class say for up to 2008 KTM50's SX and Pro SNR'S that would open up a lot of cheap engines. They are uncompetitive now and totally unsuitable for play bikes. call it F6 (lil jonies class)

[CHOPPA]

Wonder how a KX85 with a RS125 front end, 17" rim laced on the rear, make some rearsets and may a different rear shock

[chrisc]

I voted no. Even though I would really love to build a RS with a 85mx engine, I don't think it would be good for F4. The last thing I want to see is less riders turning up and competition decreasing.

My understanding is that letting in FXRs revived buckets giving people an easy, reliable and fairly cheap way to go racing with enough scope to build, develop and learn. I think eventually F4 will change to allow something similar to these engines because as time moves on, bikes become obsolete, parts harder to find and more expensive as demand increases whilst supply decreases. If there isn't anything to replace FXRs directly, I think we will be forced to look for their replacement which is likely to be something along these lines.

I don't think having to build a one off bike to compete in F4 is good for the class and will likely result in less riders due to the amount of effort required to race.

If riders REALLY wanted to build a solid, legal, 2 stroke RS package, going down the Derbi 85cc engine route is there as an option already, which we can all see is a worthwhile project. All it takes is for the builder to put the effort in.

[Bert]

Did you stop disount to consider i was not talking about you.............

Misunderstanding your quote purpose Husa???


Ok, so it's not the time apparently (it's ok, it comes up every 2-3 years and has done for a while now)...
I've even had my own team mates............... Not in the sprit of the class.
Apparently engineering is the primary purpose not racing, nor empowering others (old or young) to join in on the fun.
For those unskilled or time limited Go buy a FXR or if you want a two stroke go import in a derbi and 85cc non-race kit...

So, I'll put this out there for others to consider, all cylinders must be OEM not aftermarket.
And Anything that has "racing" cast into it should be outlawed as well.... Performance or not...

Gearboxes, fk me let's not go there. My second bike turned out to have a 6speed RM125 box in it (still sitting in a bag under the bench removed, as I felt it didn't meet the rules; back in the day): so where did this engine come from and how many other TF100s back in the day had them..... The rules were never really that well Enforced. And I'm bet money there were MBs with CR boxes as well.

Each club should be stripping down the class winners to check rule conformity (just write it into your supplementary event rules, no need to pay your $50 for a protest)...

It all seems somewhat strange that so many are opposed to this. next time I hear people bitching about four strokes or no other real options other than FXRs or the cost of pistons for two strokes, I'll bring it up again...
They are a worthless motor, there is a good supply of them and parts are cheap. They don't make as much power as te bullshit dyno graphs have been showing. The right rules could be applied to manage the integration without upsetting those whom have spent the time building weapons to the rules...

It doesn't really worry me, I've built a tzr100 (while awaiting sleeve repair) and a new pipe and it should be a better motor than I will ever need (with no compromises to the current rules). It produced 24 no problems with the great big hole.
And I've got a FXR... So this really has no effect on me anyway except for the fact that I could have had ~ten MX motors for the same price (I don't have the skill or the tools so had to stop racing and save to pay others to do my work; I just wanted to race, as that's what I felt the purpose&sprit of the sport was actually about).

Personally I'm not going to vote. Everyone whom has been around this forum for more than ten minutes, knows my long held views on this topic...

[Sketchy_Racer]

Well there's quite a lot of interest in this isn't there!

There's a lot of really good inputs and point of views on this, and thankfully largely constructive!

I think there is still a lot of misconception about the 85 MX engines let me clear some of these up.

First of all, in the case of the RM85, it is not fast, not hot rod bucket fast that is for sure! It could hold Fishies FXR motor in a straight line and that is all. So bullshit dyno numbers aside that is the reality of its power output. I'm not sure what level of tune Fishies FXR is, but I know it has a carb and exhaust done, it may have cams??? Some of the numbers being thrown around here are bloody laughable! 30HP out of a 85 MX engine are you kidding me? The damn things would have more power than a 125cc 2T MX bike. There is a very very big difference between road HP and dirt HP, and please NEVER quote a damn power graph off of the internet, it will be as bullshit as the Motomart Dyno.

The major over sight here is that while reasonable power levels are possible, it comes at a cost. At only 85cc you are getting some pretty peaky power outputs and makes the things damn hard to ride, well in comparison to the FXR150s. But that is part of the fun of 2Ts they are hard to ride but can be awesomely rewarding!

The biggest advantage I believe that these motors offer is a replacement to the long extinct "non competition" two strokes, such as the MB100s GP125 etc. I'm sorry if anyone disagrees with my opinion with this but they are old obsolete motors that you can no longer buy new parts for it's as simple as that.

Parts supply is one of the bigger factors of appeal with the MX 85 motors.

Even the FXRs are getting more more scarce as they are no longer imported into NZ, are they still even manufactured?

As for ruling I think it is an easy one, if you want to use competition derived engines or any engine parts you are simply limited to 85cc and go for you life. If you want to put a CR85 gearbox in a MB100, great but you better make it a MB85... so go get a MX85 motor.

The part I am struggling is with the four stroke equivalent and how that fits into the picture. I'm not sure how that works in? My hope for the 85s to be made legal is to bring back the two strokes before the entire field becomes 150 4Ts.

as stated, we already have a MX80 under the name "derbi" cleaning up in Auck, for two reasons, 1 it's a good bike and 2 it's got a fucken good rider on it but the fact of the matter is that it is of the same breed as the MX85 motors.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Deleted.....

[kel]

I voted no. Even though I would really love to build a RS with a 85mx engine, I don't think it would be good for F4. The last thing I want to see is less riders turning up and competition decreasing.

My understanding is that letting in FXRs revived buckets giving people an easy, reliable and fairly cheap way to go racing with enough scope to build, develop and learn. I think eventually F4 will change to allow something similar to these engines because as time moves on, bikes become obsolete, parts harder to find and more expensive as demand increases whilst supply decreases. If there isn't anything to replace FXRs directly, I think we will be forced to look for their replacement which is likely to be something along these lines.

I don't think having to build a one off bike to compete in F4 is good for the class and will likely result in less riders due to the amount of effort required to race.

If riders REALLY wanted to build a solid, legal, 2 stroke RS package, going down the Derbi 85cc engine route is there as an option already, which we can all see is a worthwhile project. All it takes is for the builder to put the effort in.

Chris, Im not following. Do you believe the 85's will make the FXR and everything else obsolete and as such everyone will just stay home?
Why do you feel the Derbi kits are legal while so many argue otherwise?

ps. The effort to build a Derbi is not much more than opening your cheque book :shutup:

[Sketchy_Racer]

My understanding is that letting in FXRs revived buckets giving people an easy, reliable and fairly cheap way to go racing with enough scope to build, develop and learn.


Yes you are right, that is what revived buckets, but only after it got to the point where it was almost completely dead! I believe that it is important to keep the class alive and not wait till it near on dies. Lets keep it alive and well with new and intersting stuff!

[chrisc]

Chris, Im not following. Do you believe the 85's will make the FXR and everything else obsolete and as such everyone will just stay home?
Why do you feel the Derbi kits are legal while so many argue otherwise?

ps. The effort to build a Derbi is not much more than opening your cheque book :shutup:

"Chris, Im not following. Do you believe the 85's will make the FXR and everything else obsolete and as such everyone will just stay home?"

No. I doubt it will make a huge impact for some time, you still have to ride it after all. Over time it might change the perception of the class however and if that ends up discouraging a bunch of people then it's definitely a loss for the class.

"Why do you feel the Derbi kits are legal while so many argue otherwise?"
I don't believe the race derbi kits are legal. The [usually] steel bore, mildly ported, twin ring piston kits, I believe are legal. These would still require tuning input to build a fast one.

"ps. The effort to build a Derbi is not much more than opening your cheque book"
Agreed, but only for the race cylinders which I don't consider legal. The diprose derbi's wouldn't be where they are without tuning and development. I doubt just slapping on a 80cc 'street' cylinder kit will yield much power, at least not an amount which would easily get away from the usual crowd of FXRs on a kart track. Again, you still need to race it.

[Bert]

.....
derbi's wouldn't be where they are without tuning and development. I doubt just slapping on a 80cc 'street' cylinder kit will yield much power, at least not an amount which would easily get away from the usual crowd of FXRs on a kart track.

Again, you still need to race it.

Bingo.

Racing... Flag drops the bullshit stops (or just gos slow in my case)...

[CM2005]

The effort to build a Derbi is not much more than opening your cheque book :shutup:

true story. same deal with RS frames, they've separated the field both in time and cash investment more than an old mx bike engine will!

[chrisc]

Bingo.

Racing... Flag drops the bullshit stops (or just gos slow in my case)...


true story. same deal with RS frames, they've separated the field both in time and cash investment more than an old mx bike engine will!

And yet riders like Tyler Lincoln still managed top 3 finishes (and even won a race) at Roy's Hill this year on Henk's FXR which I would guess to have 19-23hp?

[Bert]

Yes you are right, that is what revived buckets, but only after it got to the point where it was almost completely dead! I believe that it is important to keep the class alive and not wait till it near on dies. Lets keep it alive and well with new and intersting stuff!

Here's a plan Sketchy. I've got a TZ125 roller. How about I import in a derbi and 80 kit (and a race kit to copy). And you race it... Sponsored rider... Or maybe Tyler.

Likely similar people will say that's not fair as well, or not in the spirt....

[CM2005]

As you'd expect for NZ #2 125 class eh.

I think the argument against MX85 is about as clever as trying to set some capped budget rule.

the whole gbox swap argument - if someone really thinks it'll make the difference and wants to put in all the man hours to try and fit one then get amongst it. next some big budget guys will be asking TT industries for a CR 5 or 6 speed cnc 'box for FXRs at 6k a pop.
Kart engines aren't an advantage - the watercooled 125's would obviously be banned, KT100's don't have a gearbox and wouldn't really suit a bike.
Yes a good fast rider with a sorted MX85cc engine in a nice RS or similar frame would be very fast. But for others who pick up a $cheap KX85, give it seals, piston, front end wheels and some seat unit (or a different cheap road based frame i.e FXR, RGV or something) would just have a bike to have a fang on at limited cost (cheaper than an FXR probably). Remember that it wont suddenly turn the bucket meetings into a 200X's 85cc supermoto class, some people hate two strokes, and some will just see sense in buying an FXR, CBR150/building a honda 150 etc.

[avgas]

The point re the gearboxs alludes to the fact that the rules say
"Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road
Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted."
But an FXR 5-speed with a changed tooth ratio is fine........this just gets better and better.

Hang-on I will go get my popcorn and you can tell me how competition pistons, high-flow head, smooth bore carbs etc are not the same as having a "race engine" because you can't see it.
:corn:
Carry on.

[cotswold]

I voted yes,

My F4 road bike 2T project was scrapped at the last post as I got bored waiting for work that I did not have the skills to do get done. If I could have just gone out and bought an 80mx I would still be racing in F4 as it is I switched to F5 on the worlds slowest 50 and am having a blast.

Oh and f#$@ yeh to KTM50's bring that on as well.

[F5 Dave]

true story. same deal with RS frames, they've separated the field both in time and cash investment more than an old mx bike engine will!

I've done 2 RS framed buckets. the first I believe, although it got stalled & only made it to the track a few years back. At the time it was the cheap option, certainly cheaper than an RGV or TZR roller esp when you considered the other bits you didn't need to upgrade. My 50 was a $300 upgrade when I found a frame, forks, shock, tank arrangement & swapped bits over from my RG50, paid a doz beer for some welding & was racing in 3 weeks.

Unfortunately for the late adopters they have started to run out & got more expensive. Biggest issue is they fon't fit many engines easily. One did pass through my hands a couple of years back losing some parts but went out the dor for a couple of hundy & swap for some engineering work. Bucket prices for the lads I believe. Btw they don't turn that sharply so kart track use is a compromise.

[kel]

I've done 2 RS framed buckets. One did pass through my hands a couple of years back losing some parts but went out the dor for a couple of hundy & swap for some engineering work. Bucket prices for the lads I believe.

You are a good man supporting the class. While the occasional great buy might come up the majority of RS chassis and parts now cost an arm and a leg. My Chassis which was built up from parts, and I hope the wife never reads this, cost over $3k to complete. And the next one, which will be an NX4, will cost about the same.
This is actually one of the great appeals of buckets, people can spend as much or as little as they want (dollars and time). The bikes can be real racers or stripped down commuters. Allowing MX85's wont change this.

[husaberg]

As you'd expect for NZ #2 125 class eh.


the whole gbox swap argument - if someone really thinks it'll make the difference and wants to put in all the man hours to try and fit one then get amongst it.

Just so everyone is Chrystal clear here "the Cr80 aircooled gearbox is a straight fit in the MB100." It is also illegal under the current rules.


Misunderstanding your quote purpose Husa???


.
I quoted you Brent because you had referred to the cost. Seems someone had got the idea i was referring to their post. rather than a lot of others.
I don't feel the time is now either.
I personally it opens up to many cans of worms.I think it needs to have a robust set of rules in place, prior to implementation to ensure fairness.
if it is about cost why not deal with the issues of cost with the current eligible engines and parts.
If it is about opening the sport to a great range of possible newcomers why not look at what it is stopping them currently.

[mr bucketracer]

i don't think this is for ( little johny )to have a cheap way of going racing i read its for little you know who you are that don't want to build anything and have the easy way out.

[Skunk]

To me this is about having access to a reasonable power 2 stoke without having to be a fucking expert or have dyno and large wallet. The lack of something like this is what is KEEPING ME OUT OF THE SPORT!

Go on, tell me if I can't afford to race under the current rules I shouldn't bother.

If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[husaberg]

To me this is about having access to a reasonable power 2 stoke without having to be a fucking expert or have dyno and large wallet. The lack of something like this is what is KEEPING ME OUT OF THE SPORT!


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

i suggested to Scott in a PM .
200cc or something four strokes (2 valve only) non competition based.
He thinks the Aussies have something already in place similar..........
i wonder if that would suit you and lil jonies............

[Skunk]

I don't really care for tailoring for lil johnnies. It's there parents that do the work so it has to suit them.
And can be just like me...
I don't think more and more power is a good thing. I'd like to see a hp limit if anything.

And I don't want a dirty diesel.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[kel]

200cc or something four strokes (2 valve only) non competition based.
Oh dear I know I really shouldn't agree with Husa but what the hell. Yes let the 200cc 2 valvers in as well, same as they allow in Aus!
150cc four strokes - open
100cc 2 stroke non competition - open
200cc - must be single cylinder 2 valvers otherwise open
85cc MX - original bore and stroke to be maintained otherwise open
125cc air coolers - out the door as you're no longer safe enough to compete

[Skunk]

Ok, so 200cc four is ok but an 85cc 2 stroke isn't? WTF?!


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[richban]

The rules need to be sorted. They are out dated.

Don't we all just want a 30hp bucket? So all we do is work back from that number and impose a capacity limit for each engine type so that number can be reached if you want. air cooled 2 stroke air cooled 4 stroke 2 valve 4 valve, water cooled 2 and 4 stroke. Other rules for silly turbos and the like.

I am sure it wouldn't take long for the current, (working in the industry) engine builders and designers we know to sort the rules.

Then it will be updated and sorted. People can then move forward and do what the hell they want. The sport will still not change much at all. Except maybe, there will be more people able to race and develop as racers. What engine you run is up to you. A 190 2 valve long stroke for the kart tracks could be cool. If that is what makes the number. A super light MX85 for the bigger tracks coz its pinned anyway and the engine weighs nothing.

I dunno. These discussions go on and on. Yah got to take a holistic view and look past what it means for you righ now and what the future could be. My last post on the subject. I voted Yes.

[mr bucketracer]

I don't really care for tailoring for lil johnnies. It's there parents that do the work so it has to suit them.
And can be just like me...
I don't think more and more power is a good thing. I'd like to see a hp limit if anything.

And I don't want a dirty diesel.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.tell me why you don't want a clean burning 4 stroker?

[mr bucketracer]

Ok, so 200cc four is ok but an 85cc 2 stroke isn't? WTF?!


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.2 valve.... maybe 180cc l can't remember

[Skunk]

Because I love 2 strokes. Why shouldn't I be able to race one?
4 strokes have gone from 140cc to 160 and multi valve without any change to the old 2 stroke rules


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[F5 Dave]

tell me why you don't want a coal burning 4 stroker?

Because they don't sound like a racebike & don't feel as exciting to ride.

[mr bucketracer]

Because I love 2 strokes. Why shouldn't I be able to race one?
4 strokes have gone from 140cc to 160 and multi valve without any change to the old 2 stroke rules


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.and the four stroke are still slower . bert i'm sure will get you up to speed . i dont mine if you race your 400 out there (-;

[F5 Dave]

Edit fixed it for ya


Because I love 2 strokes. Why shouldn't I be able to race one?
4 strokes have gone from 125cc to 140, to 150, to 158 and multi valve without any change to the old 2 stroke rules


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[mr bucketracer]

Because they don't sound like a racebike & don't feel as exciting to ride.thats just you

[F5 Dave]

only my wife gets to ride me. Whether its exciting or not is tough luck. She signed some sort of contract, I remember that much.:lol:

[husaberg]

Because I love 2 strokes. Why shouldn't I be able to race one?


Some of us like real bikes not diesels. Are you planning on banning two strokes mr 'I love Honda' bucket racer?

But you are still allowed currently?
100 and a bit cc based on a non comp engine.
or 125 AC with a 24mm carb based on a non comp engine.

[Skunk]

thats just you

Some of us like real bikes not diesels. Are you planning on banning two strokes mr 'I love Honda' bucket racer?


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[Skunk]

But you are still allowed currently?
100 and a bit cc based on a non comp engine.
or 125 AC with a 24mm carb based on a non comp engine.

As I said: you need to be an expert with a dyno and a large wallet to even be mid pack. A std FXR leaves them for dead on every track until they are modified to the point of exploding and then they are generally left behind by the modified FXRs.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[husaberg]

As I said: you need to be an expert with a dyno and a large wallet to even be mid pack. A std FXR leaves them for dead on every track until they are modified to the point of exploding and then they are generally left behind by the modified FXRs.
If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

So how would a MX85 would change all that?

[Skunk]

Bolt it in and ride. My TF is 9hp. MX85 should be 17hp.

To be clear - I can build a bike but I can't do porting, swish and jetting. MX85 comes already set.

If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[Kickaha]

Don't we all just want a 30hp bucket?
No we all don't, because if we all got 30HP Buckets then everyone will start to want 40HP Buckets etc etc

200cc - must be single cylinder 2 valvers
Mint, those DR200 motors I've got will come in handy after all

Why shouldn't I be able to race one?
Because you fuck everyone of them you ride

[Skunk]

Because you fuck everyone of them you ride

Nope, never fucked a 2 stroke bucket. Only 4 strokers.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[mr bucketracer]

Bolt it in and ride. My TF is 9hp. MX85 should be 17hp.

To be clear - I can build a bike but I can't do porting, swish and jetting. MX85 comes already set.

If it ain't smokin', it's broken.im happy left alone but will it stay that way?

[cotswold]

tell me why you don't want a clean burning 4 stroker?

They sound shite and gear changes are fun

[Skunk]

The question that needs answering is how much CAN be got from them and what needs to be done to restrict it. Like the 125 AC are with the carb.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[steamroller]

Because they don't sound like a racebike & don't feel as exciting to ride.

Do you ride your bike i only ever see you working on it :bleh:

[husaberg]

Bolt it in and ride. My TF is 9hp. MX85 should be 17hp.

To be clear - I can build a bike but I can't do porting, swish and jetting. MX85 comes already set.

If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

Seeing as you live in Wellington Why not ask Dave or someone how many $ for 18hp.
bet its cheaper than buying and then rebuilding a beaten up mx85.....unless you already have one available?
The MX85 will still likely need rejetting and a pipe.............

[Skunk]

Too much. I already know what's needed for 20hp.

An MX85 will turn up at a cheaper price.

Maybe the pipe needs to be std as a restriction...


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[mr bucketracer]

for everyone at 19 year old starting buckets at 17 my tf 100 witch i have not touched for 20 years put 22.5 hp on my dyno which i never ever had on a dyno !!!!! if mine dyno is reading right or wrong mine 4 stroke on average puts out 3 hp more max max on the best of days ...after the gp 23.5 hp with shit loads of time working on it!!!! most cases im lucky to make 2 more hp on a dyno than the seat of the pants tuning . i'm am dumb . never past a exzam in my life ...as you can see i can't fucken speelll so why the fuck you can't build any thing is god oney knows , i have athistis which is now my main promblem (i can't even walk 30 seconds up a hill and be to stuffed its not funny !!! sort your shit out guys ! don't comet on this because i get sick when peolpe atacck me , i just get on and do my best now days ( and like helping people):brick:

[mr bucketracer]

last post . have fun which is what i thought bucket was about

[Skunk]

I'm not attacking you. We all have skills in different areas. I want to build and ride a two stroke. I don't like asking for help as I have little to offer in return.
I just think the two strokes have been left behind since the factories have stopped building them whereas four strokes are getting fancy (fuel injection, multi valves etc).
The MX85 engine could be what's needed.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[Bert]

Ok. Maybe a slightly different angle.

There have been conversations around junior rider development program's (at MNZ level).
If they set up a class for 8-13 yo (sub contracting engine and frame development or aligning with MetraKit etc).
With the ideal engine size 50-85cc, likely using mx engines due to availability and reliability.

Would you guys:
A) support and allow them to race with you (or B/C Grade etc), track time depended.
And help perants sort out bikes / tuning etc. to ensure the most fun is had...
Or
B) would you say nope go away (race at the MNZ organised events only)....??


Also I'd love to see more of a demographic breakdown of the poll. time involved in the sport & current bike (2 or 4 stroke)...

Mr. Bucketracer, other than me, I don't think anyone is attacking you.
Everyone is sharing their views on the topic. It was always going to be a heated topic.

[richban]

Option .....A....

[Skunk]

Fuck, I don't want to be beaten by a kid!

Hang on... I already am.

Option A


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[husaberg]

Ok. Maybe a slightly different approach.

There have been conversations around junior rider development program's (at MNZ level).
If they set up a class for 8-13 yo (sub contracting engine and frame development or aligning with MetraKit etc).
With the ideal engine size 50-85cc.


Its a great idea
The older KTMs would be a great motor in either 50cc Auto or 65cc six speed form.(beta)
They have been made uncompetitive due to the later models. They are also unsuitable for playbikes
although the 50 and 65 is still used by Huskvana.
The remaining parts could be fogged of to pitbikes owners.
Also new chinese copy engines and parts are available
http://www.motomx.com/ktm50_engine.html
, plus these
http://www.morinifrancousa.com/engines.htm

http://www.denardisengines.com/50cc.html

[Shorty_925]

85 2t should be quieter than any 150 4t, so should help with access to tracks.

[koba]

Ok. Maybe a slightly different angle.

There have been conversations around junior rider development program's (at MNZ level).
If they set up a class for 8-13 yo (sub contracting engine and frame development or aligning with MetraKit etc).
With the ideal engine size 50-85cc, likely using mx engines due to availability and reliability.

Would you guys:
A) support and allow them to race with you (or B/C Grade etc), track time depended.
And help perants sort out bikes / tuning etc. to ensure the most fun is had...
Or
B) would you say nope go away (race at the MNZ organised events only)....??


Also I'd love to see more of a demographic breakdown of the poll. time involved in the sport & current bike (2 or 4 stroke)...

Mr. Bucketracer, other than me, I don't think anyone is attacking you.
Everyone is sharing their views on the topic. It was always going to be a heated topic.

Could be something we all agree on!

Worthy of another thread really...

[chrisc]

Good idea, different thread likely^

I've thought long on this, and even voted no in the poll but like F5 Dave when he started this thread I've hit refresh and have gone the other way.

Really when you look at the current rules:
125 air cooled 2 strokes
100 other cooling 2 strokes

It seems fair to allow:
85 MX engine

On the basis that there is a capacity reduction/limit for a newer engine with better parts availability, better gearbox etc. It clearly seems to work well in Australia and I think it's reasonable to allow here in NZ too.

As Richban has pointed out many times before, the power potential between a 100cc water cooled 2T and a 150 4T is potentially/maybe/probably giving the 2T an advantage (not that I believe it has had a huge impact on the bucket field so far).

Previously I was thinking along the lines of being able to big bore an 85 and get a 100 in line with the current rules (which is harder to agree on) but I would vote yes on whether 85cc MX engines are allowed in with the normal % bore allowance.

[Henk]

Just had a look on TM for a laugh, even stuffed 85s ain't cheap. I still have a road legal FXR for sale is anyone wants one :)

[Sketchy_Racer]

Personally I think the ruling to allow 85s to enter buckets at a mid level without taking over the class is fairly simple, as long as they are restricted to their manufactured spec of 85cc the power potentiial is going to be much the same as the the other 2T configurations except that they are new, reliable and easily available.

As for it being a gateway to junior riders. Who knows? It would be great if it did but only time will tell.

I believe that there needs to be a change in the way we think about rules as well, I think that it is important to keep rule changes dynamic and have them changed to suit the classes current state. Example, if 85s were let in with no restriction apart from 85cc and they started to clearly take over in power output and make other motors redundant, then ruling should be adjusted to curb the development and pull them back with use of a carb restriction for example. There is no need to make a rule that has to be so robust that it doesn't need to be changed for 10 years.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Just had a look on TM for a laugh, even stuffed 85s ain't cheap. I still have a road legal FXR for sale is anyone wants one :)

How much????

[Henk]

How much????

It's ugly but make me an offer.

[Bert]

Just had a look on TM for a laugh, even stuffed 85s ain't cheap. I still have a road legal FXR for sale is anyone wants one :)

For once this might have proved useful living in the boon docks. Big cities provide more opportunity for one to obtain FXR/CBR city commuters and mates rates. Us rural hillbillies would have had a better chance sourcing MX engines...

[Skunk]

Put me on Sketchys cheater MX and see want happens. I'd bet I'm not much better than on my TF125. At the end of all the hp figures and bullshit you still have to ride it. And a good rider will make anything go fast. The fact that Sketchys bike handles better than mine will help a bit.


If it ain't smokin' - it's broken.

[CM2005]

MX80 or 85cc engines
STANDARD Carb body and slide = no machining
Exhaust open
Chassis open
Rest of the rules as per MNZ rules for F4





Maybe the pipe needs to be std as a restriction...


...?

Pretty straight forward, not gonna be a new "be all end all bike" and anyway the rich "little johnnies" will be asking daddy for an FXR RS125/GPR frame

[TZ350]

Just had a look on TM for a laugh, even stuffed 85s ain't cheap. I still have a road legal FXR for sale is anyone wants one :)

Yea, me to. One "Ported" RM85 engine $500 http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/complete-engines/auction-727105457.htm and one buggered KX85 $300 http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/complete-engines/auction-728556297.htm

Complete bikes, I saw only one for less than $1K several under $2K and anything that looked half reliable, between $2-$3K, maybe that is a cheap option, not so sure myself.

Hopefully someone else can flick up a few links to show how cheap these 80-85's can be brought for on any day of the week. Or if you have one in the shed and can throw good rubber on it, I guess that would be a cheap RR bike.

I have looked at new AM6 engines from the manufacturer $450 USD each plus shipping and GST the catch is 10 minimum order,

The race winning F4 Derbi I am familiar with has mid 20's hp with a strong spread making it ideal for tight tracks, plenty of cheap parts for those and AM6's, legal too.

[Henk]

I'm softening on this, from my straight no way stance.

However I'm still in the no camp for the following reasons.
If we let these in the only restriction we can put on is capacity, these are being proposed as a cheap two stroke alternative and last time I looked (admittedly a while ago) an aftermarket Athena barrel was cheaper than replating and significantly cheaper than a new OEM barrel.
As far as other mods go, I don't think I have ever seen a kids mx bike that was stock. In 99 we bought a second hand YZ80 for Michelle, six months old, pipe, porting, rad valve.... Most of these have been played with to some degree and spending more on an old engine to put it back to stock defeats the purpose of the initial proposal, I.e. Cheap.
If we allow these I also can't see how we could be consistent without opening up the gearbox issues and although some seem to think it would make no difference I know others running two strokes who think it would.
As for the if it gets out of control change the rules retrospectively argument that just doesn't work, once the cat is out of the bag it's out. I'm reasonably confident that the folk who wrote the current rules didn't exclude GP frames for the simple reason that they never thought anyone would do such a thing. Anyone think there wouldn't be an outcry now if we tried to ban them at this stage? If I had one I'd be pretty pissed off.

[Skunk]

I've seen TF125s on trade me for $200 but I got my ones for about $40 each on average. It gives another option. That means waiting until an affordable turns up or spending big on the first one you see.


If it ain't smokin' - it's broken.

[Skunk]

If we let these in the only restriction we can put on is capacity, .

I'm not sure why you think that. 125 AC are restricted by capacity and carb. No reason the same can't done here. And the gearbox rule for these engines doesn't mean it's free for the others. It all comes down to the wording allowing MX85 with or without their std gearbox and/or carb.

I'd still like to know what sort of power COULD be gained in theory. Then see how to restrict it.


If it ain't smokin' - it's broken.

[TZ350]

I'm softening on this, from my straight no way stance. However I'm still in the no camp for the following reasons.If we let these in the only restriction we can put on is capacity.

I voted No but if they do come in then I agree the only restriction should be capacity and maybe like pistons, ignitions and camshafts now the gearbox restriction should be lifted too.

[TZ350]

I'd still like to know what sort of power COULD be gained in theory. Then see how to restrict it.

I am not sure but I know not to bother thinking about the carb .... :D ... maybe no expansion chamber ... :devil2:

[Sketchy_Racer]

I'm softening on this, from my straight no way stance.

However I'm still in the no camp for the following reasons.
If we let these in the only restriction we can put on is capacity, these are being proposed as a cheap two stroke alternative and last time I looked (admittedly a while ago) an aftermarket Athena barrel was cheaper than replating and significantly cheaper than a new OEM barrel.
As far as other mods go, I don't think I have ever seen a kids mx bike that was stock. In 99 we bought a second hand YZ80 for Michelle, six months old, pipe, porting, rad valve.... Most of these have been played with to some degree and spending more on an old engine to put it back to stock defeats the purpose of the initial proposal, I.e. Cheap.
If we allow these I also can't see how we could be consistent without opening up the gearbox issues and although some seem to think it would make no difference I know others running two strokes who think it would.
As for the if it gets out of control change the rules retrospectively argument that just doesn't work, once the cat is out of the bag it's out. I'm reasonably confident that the folk who wrote the current rules didn't exclude GP frames for the simple reason that they never thought anyone would do such a thing. Anyone think there wouldn't be an outcry now if we tried to ban them at this stage? If I had one I'd be pretty pissed off.

The term cheap needs a little definition. An 85 is expensive compared to a old GP125, TF (but probably pretty close to the price of a MB100 to be honest) But it is however a bolt in semi competitive motor which is where the word goes from cheap to value.

My enthusiasm towards them is based almost completely on the availability of parts and cheap parts. Also reliability, a 85 will handle getting the revved to the moon and back all year long and then a freshen up

http://www.motocrossparts.co.nz/motocross-parts-accessories.php?id=1847&biketype=2&fitsbrand=5

If I order that it'll be here the next working day generally.

Your right about once the cat is out of the bag in terms of rules, if 85s were let in, we certainly couldn't just ban them, however I'm sure we could easily restrict them to stop them killing the other bikes. In some ways I think it would be better to have the rules say stock motors only as that means that while they will be competitive for the likes of people that just want to stuff a motor in and go, it wont deter or interfer with those who are mid way building bikes. Again, maybe start conservative with the rules and then open them up if needed?

It would be interesting to get my hands on a CRF150R and put it on the dyno. Again maybe a ruling allowing 150s and 85s MX engines but motors must be internally stock?

[kel]

Again maybe a ruling allowing 150s and 85s MX engines but motors must be internally stock?
This would create an entry level bike/class.
If this is the type of thinking then I want to change my vote to no as its all just a waste of time. A stock (read restricted) MX85 against an open CBR, FXR etc :rolleyes:

[kel]

Now that we have killed the chance of a new bread of two stroke buckets how about we sort out the rules for the current.

Forget the spirit of racing, intent of rules and all the nonesense that gets thrown up and deal with the written rule
Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted.
If I can buy a bolt up aftermarket part specifically designed for my non-competition motorcycle but the manufacturer chooses to market the part as “Racing Cylinder kit” would it still be legal?
Anyone who can read must answer yes. So how do we ammend the rules to stop buckets becoming the Derbi cup?

[F5 Dave]

Do you ride your bike i only ever see you working on it :bleh:

Well it is a 36yr old air cooled 2 stroke modified within an inch of its life. Maybe I should be trawling the TM pages for a cheater engine. But I'm a sucker for punishment. Actually I want a TZR. . .

[F5 Dave]

. . .I would vote yes on whether 85cc MX engines are allowed in with the normal % bore allowance.
Shouldn't be required. Nikasil bore means long lasting & no oversizes. If one gets rooted you replate it so it will always be under 85cc. Think the 80s may have had steel liners (I don't know) so maybe they can be bored up to 85.

[F5 Dave]

Just had a look on TM for a laugh, even stuffed 85s ain't cheap. . .
That's 'cause this thread just put the price up in anticipation:lol:. FXRs would be worth Ziltch by now with Lams & age etc combined if there wasn't buckets.

[Mental Trousers]

Now that we have killed the chance of a new bread of two stroke buckets how about we sort out the rules for the current.

How do you figure that?? The poll has the Yes's winning. Or is that irrelevant??

[F5 Dave]

I haven't voted because
a) I don't know the answer yet.
b) I didn't start this thread for Choppa's benefit. Besides, he'll only build a bike race it once & sell it straight away. Again.

Wouldn't have minded a pork around on that 380KTM.

[kel]

How do you figure that?? The poll has the Yes's winning. Or is that irrelevant??

If its a restricted 85MX we are talking then it is irrelevent for anyone wanting a bike that can compete for the win (freak riders left out of this equation)
AND
Because it would only take a petition from the NO voters submitted to MNZ with some form of well thought out arguement to stop any proposed rule change.

[Skunk]

I want to ride a two stroke. I don't give a fuck about winning as I don't ride that well. I just want to keep up so I can race someone.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[kel]

I want to ride a two stroke. I don't give a fuck about winning as I don't ride that well. I just want to keep up so I can race someone.


Then you dont need a restricted 85MX. Send me your TF for porting, I'll send it back with what you need.

[TZ350]

How do you figure that?? The poll has the Yes's winning. Or is that irrelevant??

Probably irrelevant, the premise of the Bucket rules is that of building hp not buying it, plenty of other standard production classes for those that only want a cheap ride.

[Skunk]

Then you dont need a restricted 85MX. Send me your TF for porting, I'll send it back with what you need.

But will that work for everyone like me?


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[Mental Trousers]

If its a restricted 85MX we are talking then it is irrelevent for anyone wanting a bike that can compete for the win (freak riders left out of this equation)

Not everybody wants to win. Skunk isn't wanting one to win on, he's wanting a bucket that is of similar performance to others so he can have fun racing. A field of these things gives exactly that.


Because it would only take a petition from the NO voters submitted to MNZ with some form of well thought out arguement to stop any proposed rule change.

I'd be amused to see if this actually happened as arguing on the internet is totally different to someone doing it (not saying you wouldn't start a petition as you are obviously passionate about buckets, however, if you didn't then who would?)


Probably irrelevant, the premise of the Bucket rules is that of building hp not buying it, plenty of other standard production classes for those that only want a cheap ride.

That makes No's side of the argument a lot clearer to me. Ta.

[Skunk]

Probably irrelevant, the premise of the Bucket rules is that of building hp not buying it, plenty of other standard production classes for those that only want a cheap ride.

I don't think that was the premise of buckets... It was more about fun I believe (from talking to people who started it). The engineering came after that.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Probably irrelevant, the premise of the Bucket rules is that of building hp not buying it, plenty of other standard production classes for those that only want a cheap ride.

I think you'll find the original premise of bucket rules was buy a bucket of shit then race it.

Now it is clearly not that any more as the class has developed which is great, now I find the issue is that it is to much of either a financial investment (getting a motor built) or time (building one yourself) to get a mid level bike.

I think important to keep the engine building freedom there for people such as you an even I with the supercharger project. But the reality is that project bikes spend quite a large percentage of time not running. This is why I have a personal interest in the 85s as they are easy, fun and simi competitive. I wont be able to beat richban on my 85, but its quick enough that i'll give it my best shot!

[TZ350]

I think you'll find the original premise of bucket rules was buy a bucket of shit then race it.

That is true and at the same time as having fun racing it was building your own hp, not buying it.


I think important to keep the engine building freedom there for people such as you an even I with the supercharger project. But the reality is that project bikes spend quite a large percentage of time not running. This is why I have a personal interest in the 85s as they are easy, fun and simi competitive. I wont be able to beat richban on my 85, but its quick enough that i'll give it my best shot!

I voted no, but totally agree with your thinking here, and I believe that if they are allowed in then the only restriction should be capacity so as the fiddlers can enjoy them too. And lets not forget that there is a guy on an 85 that is totally dominating up here at the moment, so it is possible to build something competitive from one of these.

[F5 Dave]

Rob I think you are wrong to say "And lets not forget that there is a guy on an 85 that is totally dominating up here at the moment" as that gives an impression that it is an MX85. It isn't. What it is is another debate. But I think in its current form it isn't a advantage over other top runners bikes.

There is also the rider factor & he is clearly in tune with that bike & tight tracks.
By comparison Sketchy actually on an MX85 in a nice chassis, was dueling with Fishe on a Warm FXR in a nice chassis (some top runners were absent though).
For some time Sketch has other people buying him his larger racebikes so he's no slouch.

I think I'd favour a std ign box if it did go ahead. If I were to buy one I'd ignitech & design a pipe to get it to rev for RR power. That would bring some decent power increases. Now note I started this thread, but I'm not pushing my own barrow. I'm not intending to buy one. Heck I'm going to struggle to afford to rebuild my flawed MB in a stable platform.

[TZ350]

If I were to buy one I'd ignitech & design a pipe to get it to rev for RR power. That would bring some decent power increases.

Yes, me too and with a Trombone pipe you could take a peaky as all shit engine and get a really decent spread of power.


Rob I think you are wrong to say "And lets not forget that there is a guy on an 85 that is totally dominating up here at the moment" as that gives an impression that it is an MX85. It isn't.

No intention to mislead, just trying to point out 85cc's can be turned into something very useful by someone with the inclination to do so.

An MX85 is a very good platform and is no slug to start with, there is plenty of good 2T tuning info about and in the hands of the right person a road racing example could be very competitive.

With Buckets being the premier tuning and development class maybe unrestricted (for all except capacity) MX85's would be a good thing.

[Drew]

With Buckets being the premier....Perhaps if more bucket racers looked outside the class, they might drop the above misconception. Then things may get simpler for everyone regarding the outdated rules governing them.

Bet few bucket racers have the slightest idea what is involved in making a competitive superbike motor.

[Pumba]

For what it is worth, in my opinion this thread has run its course and is starting to go in circles.

[kel]

Bet few bucket racers have the slightest idea what is involved in making a competitive superbike motor.
A fat wallet?
A mechanic?
A bunch of off the shelf parts?
Somebody elses time and money?

Come on, I couldn't let that pass. :lol:

[richban]

Bet few bucket racers have the slightest idea what is involved in making a competitive superbike motor.


For sure. Its a different level. They come so good out of the box. You got to work hard to find an edge.

[Skunk]

Bingo. If MX85s come in you got to work hard to find an edge.
And at the same time - without any work - they put you in the ballpark.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[Skunk]

For what it is worth, in my opinion this thread has run its course and is starting to go in circles.

But we haven't got to post 10000 yet.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[F5 Dave]

FXRs with a clever pipe & carb get you in the ballpark. But remember they have a spread of power so lets not totally fixate on peak power as its average power under the curve between gearchanges that matters most (and no jokes about my 50, I know its peaky, trust me).

Actually Pumba reminds me of something. Year before GP I took the 50 out for some laps in the Tokoroa race. Ended up having a long dice with Richard & Pumba. Richards bike was pretty sad for an FXR but had the FXR spread. Pumba's bike I don't know how worked it is but looks pretty standard. Up the hill I was getting good drive. My 50 is light & lets just say I'm probably lighter than Pumba. He'd just pull away up the hill. Pure power spread despite a weight advantage of a few 10s of kilos.

So lets not get too hung up on peak power.

[Bert]

FXRs with a clever pipe & carb get you in the ballpark. But remember they have a spread of power so lets not totally fixate on peak power as its average power under the curve between gearchanges that matters most (and no jokes about my 50, I know its peaky, trust me).

Actually Pumba reminds me of something. Year before GP I took the 50 out for some laps in the Tokoroa race. Ended up having a long dice with Richard & Pumba. Richards bike was pretty sad for an FXR but had the FXR spread. Pumba's bike I don't know how worked it is but looks pretty standard. Up the hill I was getting good drive. My 50 is light & lets just say I'm probably lighter than Pumba. He'd just pull away up the hill. Pure power spread despite a weight advantage of a few 10s of kilos.

So lets not get too hung up on peak power.

A really good perceptive on things Dave.
A MX85 isn't going to provide a big power spread, so it's going to take a good lightweight rider to take advantage over a four stroke. And this was shown with Glen's performance the other weekend (I would classify him as a good lightweight rider too)...

If this was 10-15years ago, I expect this discussion to be a non event (all round NO, which it was). But I think there is some on here that do see the forest for the trees. The game has changed and the bar has lifted; An MX85 powered RS/whatever isn't going to leave the current crop of A-graders in their dust. Those that are fringe or slower (or a little large like myself) will suffer.
But that's the reality of what this class has moved towards anyway. If your good, prepared (physically) and you have a good package you will do well, if not then your only turning up to have fun..
Especially at GP or BOB level (when things get serious). North Islands, it comes down to consistency and finishing; ticking up points (and club level too). Adding in a few more finishing twostrokers is only going to make things more interesting.
The tighter the competition will result in the bar lifting further (development will continue) and more the class will interest or encourage others...

As for the sprit of buckets being solely engineering... I say bollocks... It's racing or being out there enjoying it.. Some of us get a kick out of the tinkering and learning the engineering along the way; but that's second to the fun had on track (otherwise we wouldn't be tinkering in the first place). Just turning up and having fun is the main purpose for most of our involvement. The tighter the racing the bigger the smile. So, I'm not sure how a MX85 effects this???

I still struggle to believe anyone would get a MX85 more than 22-26 with narrow band, those with 100s/125s will get more bang for buck 24-28s with more torque and wider delivery. Some will/are getting more...

[F5 Dave]

Well yeah things have moved on. Jay, Hamish & I were cleaning up the F4 class quite easily a decade back on our 50s, mine was still putting out 12hp in even peakier format & with a mistake side mounted shock on the RG50 frame was a bit groguse on the bumps, the others made up with better handling bikes & much less peak power but with spread I could only dream of.

Now days my improved 50 is an also-ran in F4, top runners will lap me if we run 20 laps. F4 has improved out of sight from a lap time point of view.

[husaberg]

A really good perceptive on things Dave.
A MX85 isn't going to provide a big power spread, so it's going to take a good lightweight rider to take advantage over a four stroke. And this was shown with Glen's performance the other weekend (I would classify him as a good lightweight rider too)...

If this was 10-15years ago, I expect this discussion to be a non event (all round NO, which it was). But I think there is some on here that do see the forest for the trees. The game has changed and the bar has lifted; An MX85 powered RS/whatever isn't going to leave the current crop of A-graders in their dust. Those that are fringe or slower (or a little large like myself) will suffer.
But that's the reality of what this class has moved towards anyway. If your good, prepared (physically) and you have a good package you will do well, if not then your only turning up to have fun..
Especially at GP or BOB level (when things get serious). North Islands, it comes down to consistency and finishing; ticking up points (and club level too). Adding in a few more finishing twostrokers is only going to make things more interesting.
The tighter the competition will result in the bar lifting further (development will continue) and more the class will interest or encourage others...

I still struggle to believe anyone would get a MX85 more than 22-26 with narrow band, those with 100s/125s will get more bang for buck 24-28s with more torque and wider delivery. Some will/are getting more...
I struggle to get past the fact they are made as race bikes.
Not sure what the 80GP bikes were making in the 80's 30+?
i have flip flopped a bit butit just doesn't feel right....

[Bert]

I struggle to get past the fact they are made as race bikes.
Not sure what the 80GP bikes were making in the 80's 30+?
i have flip flopped a bit butit just doesn't feel right....

Different purpose race bikes though.

80's GP 80cc, narrow powerband, rotary valves, big carbs, custom electronics (yes). 33hp I think.

So, back to the case of setting up the rules correctly. To do this we need to see what they are actually capable of.

And as for the derbi, yes maybe we should start importing in the AM6 motors... Easily, TZ I'll take one of your ten required order... I know they will fit the TZ frame.

[CM2005]

I struggle to get past the fact they are made as race bikes.
Not sure what the 80GP bikes were making in the 80's 30+?
i have flip flopped a bit butit just doesn't feel right....

Ermagherd rers berk urngurns!
No shit! BUT as has been made clear in the past 15 pages it doesn't mean someones bringing an NSR500 to the bucket GP.
F5 dave has the right perspective it's about the area "under" the curve. Compare 125GP to Moto 3 laptimes...

Krauser 80 made 24hp at 14000rpm in 1984 - so comparable to a fresh MX85 now

some cool clips

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5wwiTnAvnw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4yRFm0ksd8

[husaberg]

Ermagherd rers berk urngurns!
No shit! BUT as has been made clear in the past 15 pages it doesn't mean someones bringing an NSR500 to the bucket GP.
F5 dave has the right perspective it's about the area "under" the curve. Compare 125GP to Moto 3 laptimes...

Krauser 80 made 24hp at 14000rpm in 1984 - so comparable to a fresh MX85 now

some cool clips

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5wwiTnAvnw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4yRFm0ksd8

Yeah but and as i keep saying "they have bits in them that the other bikes are not allowed to use".........
Say if the bits were open would i change my mind, honestly I don't know?
they may not be NSR500's, but the current rules exclude them for the same reason..........
Not many f4 2 strokes were brought out with case reed and water cooled in a size over 50 but under 100 .....Derbi?

[F5 Dave]

Derbis only come as 50s. Really

[Skunk]

Husaberg; I think you're getting too hung up on what was instead of what is. No; the other engines should not get competition parts as that will destroy the purpose of the MX85 and ruin the rest of the class. IMHO.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[husaberg]

Derbis only come as 50s. Really

oh what motor did the rs80 have? Rotax?
I thought Aprilia actually did a RS80 as well?

[CM2005]

oh what motor did the rs80 have? Rotax?

The 80's in Auckland are Metrakit Derbi engines i think?

[husaberg]

Husaberg; I think you're getting too hung up on what was instead of what is. No; the other engines should not get competition parts as that will destroy the purpose of the MX85 and ruin the rest of the class. IMHO.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

No skunk "what it is", is the current rules........ that some should think should change what to what you want.
Are you suggesting competition parts should be allowed but only for mx85 and then suggesting mx85 should be able to run cause they are cheaper to run.........it seems a bit on the nose.........

[CM2005]

No skunk "what it is", is the current rules........ that some should think should change what to what you want.
Are you suggesting competition parts should be allowed but only for mx85 and then suggesting mx85 should be able to run cause they are cheaper to run.........it seems a bit on the nose.........

He is suggesting that STANDARD MX80/85cc engines are used.

[husaberg]

He is suggesting that STANDARD MX80/85cc engines are used.
read the original post i quoted suggesting i am getting hung up on what the rules were rather than are?


Husaberg; I think you're getting too hung up on what was instead of what is. No; the other engines should not get competition parts as that will destroy the purpose of the MX85 and ruin the rest of the class. IMHO.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[Skunk]

No skunk "what it is", is the current rules........ that some should think should change what to what you want.
Are you suggesting competition parts should be allowed but only for mx85 and then suggesting mx85 should be able to run cause they are cheaper to run.........it seems a bit on the nose.........

But you keep quoting the 80s and seem be ignoring the recent four stoke changes.
I didn't say they would be cheaper to run.
I see them as a supply of two strokes.
As there are restrictions on the other two stokes why shouldn't there for these too?
If you let competition parts in then you've thrown the whole balance out the window.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[husaberg]

But you keep quoting the 80s and seem be ignoring the recent four stoke changes.
I didn't say they would be cheaper to run.
I see them as a supply of two strokes.
As there are restrictions on the other two stokes why shouldn't there for these too?
If you let competition parts in then you've thrown the whole balance out the window.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

what recent changes?

no but it was implied it would be cheaper for you to run one and be competitive... yes
what are the restrictions on 100cc F4 2 strokes other than cc's.
So competition parts would throw balance of power out of kilter yet competition engines won't:laugh:

[CHOPPA]

How about just let people build the 85s and turn a blind eye to them, dont score them in the points. See how many, if any turn up then gauge everything from there. Make a ruling in 12 months if they stay or go

[F5 Dave]

oh what motor did the rs80 have? Rotax?
I thought Aprilia actually did a RS80 as well?
No such thing. All aftermarket. Gpr 50 is derbi early then they went to using minarelli am6 like everyone else. But this is the different discussion I was talking about

[TZ350]

With Buckets being the premier tuning and development classPerhaps if more bucket racers looked outside the class, they might drop the above misconception. Bet few bucket racers have the slightest idea what is involved in making a competitive superbike motor.


A fat wallet?
A mechanic?
A bunch of off the shelf parts?
Somebody elses time and money?

Com on, I couldn't let that pass. :lol:

Hi Drew no offence, I guess it depends on what one means ""by premier tuning and development class"" Kel pretty much echos the Bucket fraternity's thoughts, we might be wrong so here is your chance.

For me calling Buckets the premier tuning and development class is about the front runners mostly doing all their own bike building and engine development work. I can name ten current F4/F5 front runners who built their own bikes and tweeked the engines to give 50-100% more power and learnt a lot along the way.

I would be interested in the names of ten current superbike front runners who have by their own spanner spinning efforts doubled the power of their bikes or even advanced them by 50%.

[husaberg]

How about just let people build the 85s and turn a blind eye to them, dont score them in the points. See how many, if any turn up then gauge everything from there. Make a ruling in 12 months if they stay or go
That is an intelligent solution..........

No such thing. All aftermarket. Gpr 50 is derbi early then they went to using minarelli am6 like everyone else. But this is the different discussion I was talking about

Wow, i will file that in the i didn't know that before now file.......i had always thought they did a 80 as well........

[Drew]

Hi Drew no offence, I guess it depends on what one means ""by premier tuning and development class"" Kel pretty much echos the Bucket fraternity's thoughts, we might be wrong so here is your chance.


I would be interested in the names of ten current superbike front runners who have by their own spanner spinning efforts doubled the power of their bikes or even advanced them by 50%.
Not a one of them. The rules are geared to stop exactly that. But, within the rules there is a metric shit ton of development and tuning to squeeze every once of poke from them.

Ray Clee builds most of the Suzukis, I don't know of any other rider who builds their own, but who cares? What has that got to do with anything? Should whoever rides your monster be considered lesser for not having built it.

Let's look at F3 for development, this is my perceived premier class for what we're talking about.

[richban]

Let's look at F3 for development, this is my perceived premier class for what we're talking about.

Yeah got to love F3. Such simple rules that allow way more dev than F4. Go figure.

[Grumph]

Yeah got to love F3. Such simple rules that allow way more dev than F4. Go figure.

Totally different origin Rich...F3 was designed as a National level class permitting individual development.

Buckets came about by legitemising a bunch of guys racing cheap shit at club level...

As an aside, F1 and F2 at the time F3 was started were also open slather classes - with open fuel too.....Ah, Nitro, I miss you.....

[Pumba]

Pumba's bike I don't know how worked it is but looks pretty standard. Up the hill I was getting good drive. My 50 is light & lets just say I'm probably lighter than Pumba. He'd just pull away up the hill. Pure power spread despite a weight advantage of a few 10s of kilos.

So lets not get too hung up on peak power.

Lightly warmed is probably the best way to describe my bike. But dragging my fat arse around the track it preforms like a standard one:weep:

[TZ350]

I don't know of any other rider who builds their own, but who cares? What has that got to do with anything?

Well it was you who referred to them, and what has it got to do with anything, we were talking about riders tuning and developing their own bikes. So agreed Superbikes then, is not the premier development class.


Let's look at F3 for development, this is my perceived premier class for what we're talking about.

Yes, F3 is more my idea of a development class too than Superbikes.


As an aside, F1 and F2 at the time F3 was started were also open slather classes - with open fuel too.....Ah, Nitro, I miss you.....

Drew, Grumph makes my point, the sort of development that goes on in Buckets has gone from the bigger classes, F3 is a survivor.

But I think of Buckets as the premier class because I believe per number of entries on the grid percentage wise there are greater numbers of highly developed rider tuned bikes in F4/F5 than on your average F3 grid. To see if I am right lets start naming them and see who runs out first, I will start with F5Dave, so Ok Drew now its your turn.

I guess the sheer amount of development in Buckets is because its more affordable in F4/F5 than F3 and so to my mind, affordability and the sheer numbers of really good rider developed bikes on the grid makes Buckets the Premier Tuning and Development class.

[speights_bud]

Just my 2c,

When I gave glen the mx engine we talked about how you might write the rules for them. To be added in addition to existing rules. something along these lines from memory. (bear in mind that we didn't know how competitive it would or wouldn't be)

SUPER-UNMODIFIED,
Off road MX based engines, 85cc maximum.
All engine internals to remain as standard.
Carburettor must be as standard.
Exhaust open. (To aid fitting into a frame).

I would now probably add electronic equipment as standard also.

This keeps the gearbox stuff at bay, providing a 2T option for those who are enthusiastic.

Since the bike has now been tested, those who have ridden it will know if the above rules are suitable.

I think the bike should be ridden by a few different people from both camps in its current configuration and see what people think. If it's not the powerhouse the dyno charts brag about then open the rules up a touch.

[underpowered80]

Totally different origin Rich...F3 was designed as a National level class permitting individual development.

Buckets came about by legitemising a bunch of guys racing cheap shit at club level...

As an aside, F1 and F2 at the time F3 was started were also open slather classes - with open fuel too.....Ah, Nitro, I miss you.....



Hi GRUMPH. When my sons started racing,the bikes were cb100, cb125, cb125t,gp100,kc,ke100,yb100.This was 18yrs ago .Now we have ,cbr150 ,fxr150,
All liquied cooled ,4valve motors.Is it not time to allow a new two stroke motor.A kx,yz,cr,rm,85 water cooled. If their is concern about these motors being fitted with aftermarket hot up parts ,Be like speedway and pre season dyno them.
WHAT YOU THINK ROBIN

[speights_bud]

Hi GRUMPH. When my sons started racing,the bikes were cb100, cb125, cb125t,gp100,kc,ke100,yb100.This was 18yrs ago .Now we have ,cbr150 ,fxr150,
All liquied cooled ,4valve motors.Is it not time to allow a new two stroke motor.A kx,yz,cr,rm,85 water cooled. If their is concern about these motors being fitted with aftermarket hot up parts ,Be like speedway and pre season dyno them.
WHAT YOU THINK ROBIN

Here's an idea, y'all pay me lots of $$ to supply you crate motors (like moto2) and I'll distribute them randomly and you give them back after each meeting ;-)

[Skunk]

Hi GRUMPH. When my sons started racing,the bikes were cb100, cb125, cb125t,gp100,kc,ke100,yb100.This was 18yrs ago .Now we have ,cbr150 ,fxr150,
All liquied cooled ,4valve motors.Is it not time to allow a new two stroke motor.A kx,yz,cr,rm,85 water cooled.

That's my point. Easy bolt in mid range power without mods by using an FXR, CBR but no two stroke equivalent. MX85 seems the ideal.

Let's test it. (Both the idea and the bikes).


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[speedpro]

As an aside, F1 and F2 at the time F3 was started were also open slather classes - with open fuel too.....Ah, Nitro, I miss you.....

My old F1 bike with it's 1973 Z1 engine which made 83hp(cough) when it left the factory, made 175hp with bent valves when run on the dyno. Made a bit more when everything was good. So similar % gains as a lot of buckets. Modern engines are a lot better of course and harder to "improve" to the same degree. Of course they also make more or less the same power without the turbo or methanol.

[CM2005]

My old F1 bike with it's 1973 Z1 engine which made 83hp(cough) when it left the factory, made 175hp with bent valves when run on the dyno. Made a bit more when everything was good. So similar % gains as a lot of buckets. Modern engines are a lot better of course and harder to "improve" to the same degree. Of course they also make more or less the same power without the turbo or methanol.

175 horse!!!!! turbo and or methanol? That is huuuuuge power for one of those. was it 1100cc +?

[speedpro]

Rajay turbo, carb, and intake manifold from a Z1Rtc, 75%methanol, 1075cc. Had run a larger motor with thinner sleeves but had reliability problems. Went smaller and left meat in the sleeves and block. When running it's best it could lift the front at 8,000rpm in top with 15:27 gearing and pulled 9000rpm at Puke in top. 312k according to a cop with his radar.

[quallman1234]

Only glen and i have ridden it, and ill tell you its no easy thing to ride. In fact quite difficult. More difficult than a RS125 to ride.
Honestly as a standard engine they are much more difficult than most people are thinking to ride properly and actually get some speed out of them.
In comparison my FXR was a breeze to ride.
Just pointing out that its way less powerful than you guys think, you use almost all 6 gears at kaitoke.

[jasonu]

Perhaps if more bucket racers looked outside the class, they might drop the above misconception. Then things may get simpler for everyone regarding the outdated rules governing them.
The rules are already very simple

Bet few bucket racers have the slightest idea what is involved in making a competitive superbike motor.

I doubt many of them give a shit otherwise they would already be doing it.

[F5 Dave]

Well Henks (?) Point about std being rare and hard to prove is valid. Std ign and std pipe. . . Or how about alternative pipe you can build your own but with a max diameter of say 80 mm. Easy to measure, but hard to make super power.

[Grumph]

Well Henks (?) Point about std being rare and hard to prove is valid. Std ign and std pipe. . . Or how about alternative pipe you can build your own but with a max diameter of say 80 mm. Easy to measure, but hard to make super power.

I've already said earlier i have no stance on the question but....

Given the shitfight over 250 prod and several other class rule sets i could name, whatever you come up with HAS TO BE ENFORCEABLE !!

To this end, I'd recommend making any restrictions external to the motor. Look at the aircooled/24mm carb 125 rule. simple and enforceable. as soon as you go down the track of "standard barrels" or in one very bad case "engines must be as they came from the original bike" you are simply asking for trouble.

dave may be onto something with the pipe dia idea - it needs someone with engmod to run the figures. A list of ignition boxes approved for each motor, maybe would work too. Anyone still reprogramming them ? Std carb for that motor with untouched bore too...Airbox intake restrictor ?

[avgas]

For what it is worth, in my opinion this thread has run its course and is starting to go in circles.
That's positive. I have just caught up in it.....and I think its going no where at all.

The people whom have said no - have not entertained any suggestions that there are ways for it to work. As far as they are concerned - MX85's are race engines and the rules state "No race engines".
They don't want this rule to change - and can't see anyway where an MX85 is not a race engine.

I believe the term is Stalemate.

Which raises a question - if an MX85 engine came as standard in a scooter. Would it then be allowed to be used in buckets?