Changing Up

[The Stranger]

When changing up gears do you use a your clutch?

I find it much quicker and smoother to change without the clutch.

[**R1**]

NA, only on the way down

[Motoracer]

1st - 2nd You need clutch on small bikes with short gearing. Other wise it's too harsh. Then the rest can be no clutch.

On big bikes that can do 100 plus in 1st gear, it doesn't really matter.

Though even on my 600, it was better using clutching from 1st to 2nd..

[SuperDave]

1st - 2nd You need clutch on small bikes with short gearing. Other wise it's too harsh. Then the rest can be no clutch.


I've tried shifting from 3rd to 4th a couple of times without the clutch and It didn't feel good at all. So what's the trick? Has it something to do with throttle as you shift?

[The Stranger]

Slightly preload the shift lever then back the throttle off about 25% and it will just slip in then reapply the throttle.

On the Honda it shifts like an auto at any speed, but the Yamaha is a little clunky unless you are feeding it the fat.

[SPORK]

I find it easier to do clutchless shifts on the AG, makes it change nice and cleanly.

It goes at quite some pace in 4th gear full throttle across the paddocks...

[inlinefour]

But I'm not in that much of a hurry and use my clutch for all gear changes. I understand why racing it may be preferable to not use the clutch, but on the road I can't see the need. Don't know about anyone else though...

[justsomeguy]

But I'm not in that much of a hurry and use my clutch for all gear changes. I understand why racing it may be preferable to not use the clutch, but on the road I can't see the need. Don't know about anyone else though...

It's pretty useful if you ride a gutless 250....

[SuperDave]

But I'm not in that much of a hurry and use my clutch for all gear changes. I understand why racing it may be preferable to not use the clutch, but on the road I can't see the need. Don't know about anyone else though...

I think my shifting is pretty damn fast even with the clutch. The quarter of a second faster shifting time like you say makes jack all difference on the road. I guess it ultimately comes down to what is better for your bike, I think mine prefers clutch but like others have said, their larger cc bikes shift smoother without clutch.

[SuperDave]

It's pretty useful if you ride a gutless 250....

How does it help you?

[Zed]

When changing up gears do you use a your clutch?

I find it much quicker and smoother to change without the clutch.I think it's a good habit to use the clutch, which I do most of the time, except when opening it up through the gears on a good straight, usually trying to pull away from someone! :Punk:

[John]

I normally avoid the clutch, it slips bad - I need a new one, so I save skipping into N by just clutchless shifting, makes 1st gear engine braking a bit of fun, the rear gets nice and wiggly, cant be to good for the compression lol ...

[Motu]

The DT230 is jerky to ride using the clutch - too powerful,light,with very close gears...it's much smoother to just nail it and flick,flick,flick - that's what it was built to do and you just fall into that riding style.With no engine braking clutchless down shifts are a breeze,too easy actualy....with my left leg floating on and off the peg an accidental touch and I'm down a gear - but they are so close and with not much engine braking it's not too much of a drama.

[WINJA]

I normally avoid the clutch, it slips bad - I need a new one, so I save skipping into N by just clutchless shifting, makes 1st gear engine braking a bit of fun, the rear gets nice and wiggly, cant be to good for the compression lol ...
HAVE YOU TRIED MY RACE DAY CLUTCH FIX JOHN , IT REALLY WORKS AND LASTED FOR AGES , NO NEW PARTS NEEDED

[ducatilover]

when i'm attempting to pass some one i dont use the clutch....cos my gn i fricken guttless! :Punk:

[John]

HAVE YOU TRIED MY RACE DAY CLUTCH FIX JOHN , IT REALLY WORKS AND LASTED FOR AGES , NO NEW PARTS NEEDED
could you enlighten me on that one boss.?

[WINJA]

could you enlighten me on that one boss.?
TAKE OUT THE CLUTCH , SCRAPE THE STEELS ON THE CONCRETE GET THEM QUITE ROUGH , CLEAN THE FIBRES AND STEELS REASSEMBLE, CUT YOURSELF ONE METER OF FENCE WIRE FROM THE INFIELD AT PUKE , BEND THE WIRE INTO A PERFECT CIRCLE ROUND A BOLT THEN SNIP WITH SIDE CUTTERS, YOULL NEED
THESE ROUND WASHERS TO PRELOAD THE CLUTCH SPRINGS SO MAKE THEM AS ROUND AS THE SPRINGS , ASSEMBLE SIDE COVER , RIDE THE CLUTCH WILL BE GRABBY AT FIRST , NOTE YOU MUST HAVE SOME FRICTION MATERIAL FOR THIS TO WORK

[John]

TAKE OUT THE CLUTCH , SCRAPE THE STEELS ON THE CONCRETE GET THEM QUITE ROUGH , CLEAN THE FIBRES AND STEELS REASSEMBLE, CUT YOURSELF ONE METER OF FENCE WIRE FROM THE INFIELD AT PUKE , BEND THE WIRE INTO A PERFECT CIRCLE ROUND A BOLT THEN SNIP WITH SIDE CUTTERS, YOULL NEED
THESE ROUND WASHERS TO PRELOAD THE CLUTCH SPRINGS SO MAKE THEM AS ROUND AS THE SPRINGS , ASSEMBLE SIDE COVER , RIDE THE CLUTCH WILL BE GRABBY AT FIRST , NOTE YOU MUST HAVE SOME FRICTION MATERIAL FOR THIS TO WORK
ah, thats not a shabby idea - I might get off my ass and give it a go, cheers.

[WINJA]

ah, thats not a shabby idea - I might get off my ass and give it a go, cheers.
KEEP AN EYE ON OIL COLOUR

[Rhino]

TAKE OUT THE CLUTCH , SCRAPE THE STEELS ON THE CONCRETE GET THEM QUITE ROUGH , CLEAN THE FIBRES AND STEELS REASSEMBLE, CUT YOURSELF ONE METER OF FENCE WIRE FROM THE INFIELD AT PUKE , BEND THE WIRE INTO A PERFECT CIRCLE ROUND A BOLT THEN SNIP WITH SIDE CUTTERS, YOULL NEED
THESE ROUND WASHERS TO PRELOAD THE CLUTCH SPRINGS SO MAKE THEM AS ROUND AS THE SPRINGS , ASSEMBLE SIDE COVER , RIDE THE CLUTCH WILL BE GRABBY AT FIRST , NOTE YOU MUST HAVE SOME FRICTION MATERIAL FOR THIS TO WORK

This has to be the crappiest clutch fix I have heard in a long time. It will work for a short period, but is a kludge. Once your friction plates have worn to the point that the material is almost down to the base of the plates, increasing the pressure (via the Pukekohe Fence Wire washers) will only work for a short time. You are now in the time of diminishing returns.

If this is Winjas "Race Day Fix" I would have to ask what happened to his pre-race planning. Any competent racer would ensure that their bike is in the best possible state for a meeting. Normally that would include state of engine tune, tyres, engine/clutch/gearbox and a full mechanical check of the bike.

[zadok]

This is a repeat of a thread I started, but never mind.
Kwaka 1000GTR - Clutch only from 1st to 2nd, and always changing down. Seems the smoothest way for the bike.

[thehollowmen]

In the rain I find I'll spin or lock my tyres doing this... so yeah, I often use the clutch unless I'm in nice and dry, and with no pillion.

Then I'll have a go at burning a bit o' rubber.

[WINJA]

This has to be the crappiest clutch fix I have heard in a long time. It will work for a short period, but is a kludge. Once your friction plates have worn to the point that the material is almost down to the base of the plates, increasing the pressure (via the Pukekohe Fence Wire washers) will only work for a short time. You are now in the time of diminishing returns.

If this is Winjas "Race Day Fix" I would have to ask what happened to his pre-race planning. Any competent racer would ensure that their bike is in the best possible state for a meeting. Normally that would include state of engine tune, tyres, engine/clutch/gearbox and a full mechanical check of the bike.
HOW THE FUCK WAS I TO KNOW THE BIKE WOULD SHIT THE CLUTCH ON RACE DAY? AS FOR PRE RACE PLANING THE BIKE WAS DOING LAPS OF QUEEN ST THE NIGHT BEFORE , I RACED MY SHOPPING CART AND STILL GOT SOMEWHERE

[kerryg]

Slightly preload the shift lever then back the throttle off about 25% and it will just slip in then reapply the throttle.




This is probably just showing how stupid I am, but who cares....

Isn't it hard on the transmission? When the clutch is disengaged it takes load off the transmission while making the change, thus lessening stresses on transmission components, doesn't it? Or is that not the case with bike transmissions? Can someone clarify this for the technically-illiterate?? I hate to think of prematurely wearing out or damaging my gearbox for the sake of savong a few nanoseconds in changing gear.

[Brains]

This is probably just showing how stupid I am, but who cares....

Isn't it hard on the transmission? When the clutch is disengaged it takes load off the transmission while making the change, thus lessening stresses on transmission components, doesn't it? Or is that not the case with bike transmissions? Can someone clarify this for the technically-illiterate?? I hate to think of prematurely wearing out or damaging my gearbox for the sake of savong a few nanoseconds in changing gear.

Bike transmission is quite different from a cars, not sure how, but it is. I would not expect that any more wear and tear occurs with clutchless shifting, I actually find it easier on the bike since when you shift via the clutch you need to find the right rev's and let the clutch out, with the clutchless shifting it just seems to do this much better.

If you're really keen have a go at changing down via clutchless shifting, makes for some excellent engine braking - especially good on tracks.

Clutchless shifting all depends on the rev's of the bike at the time, the 1000rr likes it more when it's above 5k on the revs- higher is better. So commuting round town changing from 1st to 2nd is done with the clutch.

Happy hunting.

[The Stranger]

Motorcycles use a constant mesh transmission, which is to say that all gears are always engaged.
Your clutch will disengage drive drom the motor, but as you are moving forward at the time of shifting the gears are being driven by the back wheel anyway, so all disengaging the clutch is doing is unloading the load from the engine, not slowing the gears at all.
When you back off the throttle for a clutchless shift you are again not slowing any gears but are also unloading unloading the load from the engine.
So to summarise, neither method slows or disengages any of the gears more than the other and both methods release the load from the engine on the input shaft.

Some claim it is bad and some claim it is good.

I believe that clutchless shifting is better than sloppy shifts or clutch work which we all will agree none of us are guilty of.

However, on the odd occasion when clutch shifting i have selected a false neutral and or heard the clicking as the dogs are strugling to engage cause I got a bit lazy or was focusing on something else a bit more at the time.
I can't remember goosing a clutchless shift though. You only lightly pre-load the shifter and only just prior to shifting so wear on the shift forks will be minimal, then as the load comes off you are automatically at the nearest possible correct speed for the upshift.

At the end of the day I can not say for sure, but I will let you know in time.

[kerryg]

Motorcycles use a constant mesh transmission, which is to say that all gears are always engaged.
Your clutch will disengage drive drom the motor, but as you are moving forward at the time of shifting the gears are being driven by the back wheel anyway, so all disengaging the clutch is doing is unloading the load from the engine, not slowing the gears at all.
When you back off the throttle for a clutchless shift you are again not slowing any gears but are also unloading unloading the load from the engine.
So to summarise, neither method slows or disengages any of the gears more than the other and both methods release the load from the engine on the input shaft.

Some claim it is bad and some claim it is good.

I believe that clutchless shifting is better than sloppy shifts or clutch work which we all will agree none of us are guilty of.

However, on the odd occasion when clutch shifting i have selected a false neutral and or heard the clicking as the dogs are strugling to engage cause I got a bit lazy or was focusing on something else a bit more at the time.
I can't remember goosing a clutchless shift though. You only lightly pre-load the shifter and only just prior to shifting so wear on the shift forks will be minimal, then as the load comes off you are automatically at the nearest possible correct speed for the upshift.

At the end of the day I can not say for sure, but I will let you know in time.

Thanks for that information. In the interim I did a google and came up with this:



http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/shifting.html

Has a lot of info in it that seems to coincide with what you're saying.

I need to read it slowly and carefully but a quick skim seems to suggest a couple of things:

1. that careless/unskilled clutchless shifting is not good and that there is a knack to the process that unless acquired could cause harm to your transmission
2. that it is not a good idea to "pre-load" the shift lever

Anyway I'll study it a bit more carefully but seems if it's done properly there's nothing wrong with it

[Ixion]

Good way to snap a primary chain, clutchless shifting.

[TygerTung]

Car gearboxes are also constant mesh, but they have syncro's to help the gears spin up to the right speeds.

They have selectors rather than dogs though, have a look up on www.howstuffworks.com for a car gearbox

[scracha]

I normally avoid the clutch, it slips bad - I need a new one, so I save skipping into N by just clutchless shifting, makes 1st gear engine braking a bit of fun, the rear gets nice and wiggly, cant be to good for the compression lol ...

Well that makes sense. I mean, fixing a motorcycle clutch is so much more difficult and costly than rebuilding a gearbox :dodge: .

You'll find most racers have quickshifters and expect to rebuild engines. Ride clutchless on the road and you'll have a knackered gearbox, chain, sprockets and cush drive.