11 September - 4 years on

[SARGE]

i arrived in NZ on 18 Sept 01.. i was on the first commercial airliner to leave US airspace after the bombing.i had bought my ticket months before to come here to get married and i was not about to miss coming to be with Caroline..

"let them try something" i thought to myself " i'll sho them what one motivated Marine is capable of.."

it was surreal.. almost eerie. 1/2 empty Qantas filled with silence.. everyone watching everyone.. some were visibly scared.. some were visibly defiant (i count myself as one of those) some were hollow.

as the plane left the ground, the tension mounted.. i looked out the window at my homeland and saw the huge amount of red white and blue flags , growing smaller as we rose into the air. a lump formed in my throat and i choked back a tear for those affected by the attack (all of us were). i started, absentmindedly singing softly...

" Oh say can you see.. by the dawns early light..."

to my suprise, the lady in front of me joined in.. then her seatmate.. and the old man sitting next to my son.. before the "Rockets Red Glare".. all of the Americans on the plane had joined in with pride, singing at the top of our voices

the flightcrew stopped what they were doing and watched.. some crying.. some with thier hands over thier mouths trying to hold it in..one attendant was standing bolt straight, holding her hand over her heart with tears streaming down her face. after the last note .. the plane erupted in a cheer and round of applause and the Aussie capitain thanked us over the intercom. i never felt prouder in my life.

now folks .. i know some of you are going to bash me for this thread, but i dont care.. i needed to get this out. bad rep me all you want.. i have green to spare and i am slightly too pissed to give a fuck at the momnt ( Gawd Bless you Jack Daniels)

i have seen some real shitholes in my time. Beruit , Grenada, Falklands, Libya and a few places i cant talk about. Politics aside, i hold my brother Soldiers, Sailors, and Marines in my heart every day, moreso on 11 September. i dont nessasarily agree with G.W.Bush and the War On Terror ™ .. didnt like his daddy either but i am proud to call myself an American. i am , however ashamed of the mess on the Gulf Coast, New Orleans etc and i LOATH the assholes who are causing the grief there (armed thugs and incompetant government toadies alike)

i do love New Zealand and i hope to make a good life here. you are all friendly (for the most part.. a few twats in the mix , but you have that everywhere) and i have made a few great friends in the 4 years i have been here

thanks for reading this and for indulging me over the last few paragraphs

just so you know .. the loud FJ with the Stars n Bars flying off the back on the NW Motorway for the next week is me.. honk if you see me

Sempre Fidelis

[SARGE]

Green bling attached to above post.. well written.

Now.. off the piss and into bed. I will be on your shop doorstep at 9 oclock tomorrow mornng before work.


cant promise i'll be in great shape man... look forward to meeting you

[James Deuce]

Who would slam you for that?

Thanks for sharing, and making sure that we remember that "ordinary" (never met an ordinary US Marine) US citizens are people too.

[curious george]

Who would slam you for that?
Agreeded. Thanks for that Sarge

[Groins_NZ]

Good on ya mate...

Very little grammer/spelling mistakes even after swigging some JD - most impressive - due your marine training?

[Paul in NZ]

Good Post...

[Sniper]

If anybody slams you for that, they deserve a good kicking!

Well done Sarge mate, and thanks for the great post

[Motu]

How you feeling this morning? At least you didn't break down and cry....that's ugly...but Jack Daniels can do that to the strongest man....

[crashe]

I reckon SARGE is holding his head up, about now at work.......
and then has to face Speedmedic charging in all bright and cheerful...

Poor SARGE at work with all those bikes reving all day long... and him with a hungover...

[crshbndct]

sounded a bit like a bad yank movie, but meh

good post

[SARGE]

How you feeling this morning? At least you didn't break down and cry....that's ugly...but Jack Daniels can do that to the strongest man....


im to dehydrated for tears to form.. :puke:

[Dafe]

Whats up with all the U.S. ravings lately? I can't believe how unpopular US has become.
What, with China alligning with Russia, the communist rivalry is now stronger than ever. Chinas aggressive speaking down to the U.S.
Terrorism in the back yard.
This worlds gone farkin crazy!

I have one dislike only towards the U.S. That has to do with the people themselves. They're so loud, "I've served here, I've served there!" and "Thats about an eigth the size of my property back home!"

In my time I've known Americans to be the only nation that blows their own trumpet so amazingly loud, and they all do!

America would be a fabulous place if the people were a little more conservative like your average NZ'er.

But don't get me wrong. Thats my one and only US related gripe.
If I had it my way, NZ would be in alliance with the U.S. by means of directly supporting primarily Australia and NZ interests.

Also, that President has to go! How coruupt was his election into power?
It should have been John Kerry.

But I put the downfall of the US to originating from one source only - The Jewish people. Those enlightened minds will understand this statement.

[k14]

Yeah good post sarge, put the 9/11 attacks into a different perspective for me, never really heard it from your point of view. Shows how patriotic some americans are about their country, can't see many nzer's feeling that way towards our country. Good stuff.

[zadok]

4 Years! My goodness, how time flies. Good write up. Good to see you enjoying a great country.

[kerryg]

i
" Oh say can you see.. by the dawns early light..."




Nicely expressed Sarge. There's a little bit of poet in that grizzled ol' marine....

I'm not one of your countrymen but I whenever I hear the "Star Spangled Banner" it makes (my few remaining) hairs stand on end. It's a very moving and potent anthem, compared to the dreary dirge we have here....well, at least God Defend Defend NZ is not as bad as Advance Australia Fair.....

[Lou Girardin]

But don't get me wrong. Thats my one and only US related gripe.
If I had it my way, NZ would be in alliance with the U.S. by means of directly supporting primarily Australia and NZ interests.

.

But I put the downfall of the US to originating from one source only - The Jewish people. Those enlightened minds will understand this statement.

Excellent! We could be waiting for a terrorist attack too, just to be like our mates.

Anti-semitism? You're a few decades late for this one.
The new hatred du jour is ragheads. Get with the programme fella!

[kerryg]

But I put the downfall of the US to originating from one source only - The Jewish people. Those enlightened minds will understand this statement.


Shit mate, I hope this a troll

[BNZ]

well put sarge. And im glad to know im not the only one nursing one big fuck off hangover at work today.

[Marknz]

Yea Sarge, I'm gonna bash ya for this thread... what the feck is it with the Jack Daniels!?! That shit'll strip your stomach man :sick:


But all joking aside, I'm with you on this issue and, along with all the other Americans who'll be around on the 11th, I'll stand and bow my head in memory of those lost to that cowardly feckin' attack by the ragheads.

I for one used to think the same way as Dafe, but having actually been to the States a couple of times I now know that the "typical loudmouth yankee" is not really the case. I'd have to say that the Americans that I have met and worked with over the years have been some of the most gracious and polite people I've ever met. Like any other society in the world, it does have it's arseholes too, but they are well outnumbered by the good folk.

About 14 months ago I was fortunate enough to go to Oriole Park in Camden Yards to watch the Yankees play the Orioles. I have no words to explain the emotion of standing and being totally embraced by the whole crowd finishing off the stirring rendition of "the Banner" that was performed that night... absolutely friggin amazing. NZ'ers could learn something from that experience. An afternoon at the Cake Tin listening to our anthem being choked on is like a pissy singalong in the back bar of the pub in comparison.

We could sit here for hours and argue about American politicians, and the business interests of the top 4 blokes in the current administration... but that ain't gonna solve anything. America / Americans AND it's allies will continue to be soft targets for terrorist groups for many years to come. I doubt "The Fourth Global War" ( and if you're that enlightened Dafe, you'll know where that comes from ) will end in my lifetime.

Ride on

[SARGE]

thanks KB'ers..

you have restored my faith in humanity..i dont normally let go like that but the Lynchburg Lube really loosend it up last night

[scumdog]

thanks KB'ers..

you have restored my faith in humanity..i dont normally let go like that but the Lynchburg Lube really loosend it up last night

Glad I'm not the only one to have alcamahol enhanced postings..

Hope the head has ceased to feel like it is about to explode and all the blotting paper is off your tongue!!

[Lou Girardin]

In case anyone thinks Kiwis aren't patriotic.
We lost more dead per capita than any other country in the two world wars.

[James Deuce]

In case anyone thinks Kiwis aren't patriotic.
We lost more dead per capita than any other country in the two world wars.

Actually, from 1898 to 1975. We also still hold the record for the worst wastage of horse flesh in war. Of the 5000 horses sent to the Boer War, 1 returned.

[Lou Girardin]

Actually, from 1898 to 1975. We also still hold the record for the worst wastage of horse flesh in war. Of the 5000 horses sent to the Boer War, 1 returned.

We used to be good at dying for others. Could it be that we'd done enough to warrant life membership of Anzus?
We were always punctual at other peoples wars too.

[James Deuce]

We used to be good at dying for others. Could it be that we'd done enough to warrant life membership of Anzus?
We were always punctual at other peoples wars too.

Two days early with WWII. Sept 1 vs Sept 3 for the rest of the Commonwealth.

[Ixion]

..
i have seen some real shitholes in my time. Beruit , Grenada, Falklands, Libya and a few places i cant talk about. ..

Falklands? Was there yanks at the Falklands ?

[Ixion]

Whats up with all the U.S. ravings lately? I can't believe how unpopular US has become.
What, with China alligning with Russia, the communist rivalry is now stronger than ever. Chinas aggressive speaking down to the U.S.
...

Psst . Don't look behind you . Be afraid, be very afraid. WE'RE RIGHT HERE IN NZ! Brigadier Gilbert failed!

[Krayy]

Two days early with WWII. Sept 1 vs Sept 3 for the rest of the Commonwealth.
Hell, I would've thought if there was a fight on, the Scots would be first in?!?

[Wolf]

Hell, I would've thought if there was a fight on, the Scots would be first in?!?
Too busy scrapping with the Irish who also want to be first in the fight - slows them both down :devil2:

[SARGE]

Falklands? Was there yanks at the Falklands ?


not officiallly.. american medical students to be evac'ed..we were ordered to get in and out as fast as possible.. no contact unless fired upon.. then return fire in spades

i personally didnt fire a shot (2 grenades were missing when i got back though :whistle: )

[Big Dave]

well, at least God Defend Defend NZ is not as bad as Advance Australia Fair.....

Maybe so - but at least we don't have to deal with it twice in different languages.

[Big Dave]

When i hear the star spangled banner I think....
'Mustn't have been any Aussies Riding in that race.'

[SARGE]

Glad I'm not the only one to have alcamahol enhanced postings..

Hope the head has ceased to feel like it is about to explode and all the blotting paper is off your tongue!!


i got it sorted finally after work in the parts department.. few drinks with the fellas after a full on day..

seriously.. thanks for the greenies everyone .. this time of year i get a bit blue.. september 11 through to October 23 (google that date and Beirut..see what you come up with..)

i sometimes come off very hard and right wing, but if any of you could get into my head for a few days you would understand why.. i never pull punches.. i dont believe in PC and i speak my mind.. i apologize if i offend anyone but thats just me.. i am a friendly kinda guy 85% of the time, just get a few in me around this time of year and its Jeckle and Hyde (much like tonight .. AGAIN..)

wonder if Betty Ford is seeing guests

[SARGE]

Poor SARGE at work with all those bikes reving all day long... and him with a hungover...



bikes revving is like music mate.. thought you knew

[idb]

I have no words to explain the emotion of standing and being totally embraced by the whole crowd finishing off the stirring rendition of "the Banner" that was performed that night... absolutely friggin amazing. NZ'ers could learn something from that experience.............................

Just what could we learn?
Why is it necessary for us to be demonstrative?
Why do people decry NZers for their reserve?
I don't get it.

Cheers Sarge by the way.

[Ixion]

When i hear the star spangled banner I think....
'Mustn't have been any Aussies Riding in that race.'

Land of Hope and Glory,
Mother of the Free,
How shall we extol thee,
Who are born of thee?
Wider still and wider
Shall thy bounds be set,
God, who made thee mighty
Make thee mightier yet.
(God, who made thee mighty
Make thee mightier yet.)

[Storm]

Lest we forget Anzac Day, and the many others. Good onya Sarge for telling it how you see it, dont ever change :Punk:

[vfrboy]

I don't think anybody will ever forget where they were when they heard about 9/11, not matter what anyone thinks the whole world was so shocked that something like this happened. I remember seeing it at work (RNZAF) and staying up for the next 2 days just watching the reports on TV. Unfortunately it was a turning point in how low things could get in this world.

[SARGE]

Lest we forget Anzac Day, and the many others. Good onya Sarge for telling it how you see it, dont ever change :Punk:


from what i have read of ANZAC day.. that was a complete clusterfuck. wrong beach at low tide.. was a massacre waiting to happen

[SARGE]

I don't think anybody will ever forget where they were when they heard about 9/11, not matter what anyone thinks the whole world was so shocked that something like this happened. I remember seeing it at work (RNZAF) and staying up for the next 2 days just watching the reports on TV. Unfortunately it was a turning point in how low things could get in this world.


i have heard from several people that , for some reason .. on the day it happened.. they got up EARLY and fired up the TV .. cooincidence??.. disturbance in the Force?..

[James Deuce]

i have heard from several people that , for some reason .. on the day it happened.. they got up EARLY and fired up the TV .. cooincidence??.. disturbance in the Force?..

It was weird. The alarm went off and the radio station was playing something odd that wasn't gelling, so I turned the telly on and the first tower was just burning. I thought, hoped more like - that it was a modern day version of Orson Welles War of the Worlds broadcast from the '30s. Sady not.

My oldest was 13 months old and I had him up and he saw the second plane hit. He just looked at me with the oddest expression and then burst into tears that didn't stop for about 20 minutes.

[SARGE]

It was weird. The alarm went off and the radio station was playing something odd that wasn't gelling, so I turned the telly on and the first tower was just burning. I thought, hoped more like - that it was a modern day version of Orson Welles War of the Worlds broadcast from the '30s. Sady not.

My oldest was 13 months old and I had him up and he saw the second plane hit. He just looked at me with the oddest expression and then burst into tears that didn't stop for about 20 minutes.


i was living in Dayton Ohio on 9-11 at the foot of Wright Patterson Air Force Base.. we heard the fighters scramble and several break the sound barrier getting into the air. military vehicles started popping up like daisies, Patriot missile batteries sprouted up in shopping center parking lots.. the reaction was frighteningly fast..

i have no problem with someone who has a beef with me.. show me how bad you are.. bring it on 100% to my face and we will go until one of us cant go anymore..that i respect.. bring your army over and lets have a go..the attack on civilians was an act of sheer cowardice..unworthy of a true man.. more of a teenage pussy-assed slap-fight.

funny thing though.. i remember that soon after i hit NZ.. a boatload of refuges from.. umm.. AFGANISTAN landed in NZ.. seems they had been on the water for several weks already prior to the attack.

funny that .

im pissed again.. gonna have some bread and water and hit the rack..

Sempre Fidelis

[SPORK]

Sarge, you're an interesting character. And I meant that in the good way!

Got any other stories you could/want to enlighten us with?

[SARGE]

Sarge, you're an interesting character. And I meant that in the good way!

Got any other stories you could/want to enlighten us with?


got plenty i could tell ya ...


but then i'd have to kill ya ... :devil2: :rofl:

[SPORK]

got plenty i could tell ya ...


but then i'd have to kill ya ... :devil2: :rofl:
I'm too young to die! Can you tell someone I don't like, then I'll steal the notes off them once you've done your sneaky-whack on them? :sherlock:

[SARGE]

I'm too young to die! Can you tell someone I don't like, then I'll steal the notes off them once you've done your sneaky-whack on them? :sherlock:


heheh.. just looked at your profile.. hell man .. i got SHOES older than you :rofl:

mate.. just study hard.. dont fuck around with the assholes in the world.. this is your planet now..your generation has the power to never let this shit happen again..

dont blow it

gnight

[SPORK]

heheh.. just looked at your profile.. hell man .. i got SHOES older than you :rofl:

Aww... Does that mean I can live?


mate.. just study hard..
Ergh. I think this sums up school at the moment: :yawn::zzzz::hitcher::nono:

Well, I'm actually doing pretty good, really. Just tired. Need holidays!


dont fuck around with the assholes in the world..
I don't plan on that happening. Someone's got to keep everyone in shape!


this is your planet now..
Sweet, I'll give you Australia. John and Tristank can share Nambia.


your generation has the power to never let this shit happen again..
I'll do my best! Just to be safe I'll revoke the power off all those that watch Dragonball Z (p/t, wayman!)


dont blow it

Won't do. :Punk:

[Biff]

R-E-S-P-E-C-T - Thanks for sharing that with us Sarge.


Falklands eh? What a shite awful place. The last time I was there the forces personnel on the island were under strict instructions to stop calling the natives "Bennies" - after a famous dumb arse of a character from the British TV soap Crossroads.

So the locals then became known as "Stills" instead, because they were Still Bennies.

Gotta love British humour.

[Timber020]

A mate of mine Mark was on a trip to the falklands, was all ready when the ship he was in was hit by an exocet and he ended up in burning fuel oil in the sea, never made it onshore. Got back to blighty to be told to stay out of sight due to his burns and not upset the public. Last time I saw him he was debt collecting in westport.

[SARGE]

dont know if anyone watched the show called The Hamburg Cell on TV1 last night..i was so pissed off.. they actually gave those animals a human face and tried to make them look like heros.. they were NOT heros.. they were murderers!

if they would have attacked a military target , i would at least have a semblance of respect for them because they wouild have had balls.. but a Civilian target like that doesn't fight back

fucking cowardly cunts.. you want a civillian target.. here i am.. bring it on... i got your Jihad right here

[Wellyman]

Great post mate, nothing wrong with that.
green rep sent!

[SARGE]

Great post mate, nothing wrong with that.
green rep sent!


thanks man.. hey listen everyone.. thanks heaps for the rep.. i have recived over 400 greenies for this, but i wasnt rep hunting.. this is a subject very close to my heart and it affected me personally in more ways than i can explain ( i was an online mate of 2 NYC police officers who were killed in the attack)

i think it would be nice if we can just spare a moment over the next few days and remember the heros of the tragedy..the Emergency Servises personell that gave all to try to help.. EVERYONE pulled together in the aftermath.. THATS the America i remember.. THATS the American spirit at its finest

[Krayy]

...i think it would be nice if we can just spare a moment over the next few days and remember the heros of the tragedy..the Emergency Servises personell that gave all to try to help.. EVERYONE pulled together in the aftermath.. THATS the America i remember.. THATS the American spirit at its finest
I reckon there were a lot of real heroes to come out of that tragedy, but not the c**t who's running the country. What a dick.

Anyways, I hear what you're saying about pride, and I'm glad I got a chance to wave you down this a.m. with the flag flying on the FJ (I was only in the cage to drop the kids off at daycare, I swear). What's with the mohawk, you part indian??

[SARGE]

I reckon there were a lot of real heroes to come out of that tragedy, but not the c**t who's running the country. What a dick.

Anyways, I hear what you're saying about pride, and I'm glad I got a chance to wave you down this a.m. with the flag flying on the FJ (I was only in the cage to drop the kids off at daycare, I swear). What's with the mohawk, you part indian??


YEA!! and black from the waist down too :Punk:

[Krayy]

YEA!! and black from the waist down too :Punk:
Well that explains the bike leaning to the left :ride:

[SARGE]

(I was only in the cage to drop the kids off at daycare, I swear).


KRAVY DRIVES A 4WD!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

nice dress by the way

[MikeL]

dont know if anyone watched the show called The Hamburg Cell on TV1 last night..i was so pissed off.. they actually gave those animals a human face and tried to make them look like heros.. they were NOT heros.. they were murderers!

if they would have attacked a military target , i would at least have a semblance of respect for them because they wouild have had balls.. but a Civilian target like that doesn't fight back

fucking cowardly cunts.. you want a civillian target.. here i am.. bring it on... i got your Jihad right here

You Americans just don't geddit do ya?
The rules have changed. And you changed them. Why are you surprised that civilians are targets? How many Iraqi civilians have you killed? Or would you prefer that I refer to them as "collateral damage"? But of course, they can be dismissed anyway, labelled as "insurgents" or "fanatics" (there were no "insurgents" in the colonies in 1776, eh - only patriots? And of course a fundamentalist Christian is not a fanatic because he has God, not Allah, on his side...)

So the towelheads shoulda done the decent thing and sent a wave of stealth bombers across to NY, so as to even up the odds a bit... Fucking cowardly cunts... No balls (funny I don't recall seeing their parachutes just before the planes hit...)

Sorry about this rant. All out of Jack Daniels so couldn't prevent a severe rush of logic and reason to the head...

Final thought: "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson. A cynical view, perhaps, but then so is "My country, right or wrong"

[scumdog]

You Americans just don't geddit do ya?
The rules have changed. And you changed them. Why are you surprised that civilians are targets?
Sorry about this rant. All out of Jack Daniels so couldn't prevent a severe rush of logic and reason to the head...

Final thought: "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson. A cynical view, perhaps, but then so is "My country, right or wrong"

Hmm, at least the American leaders weren't slaughtering en masse their own people just because the didn't support the present regime eh?

Nice alcamahol rant anyway - and using good old J.D. too! Top marks.

[Waylander]

You Americans just don't geddit do ya?
The rules have changed. And you changed them. Why are you surprised that civilians are targets? How many Iraqi civilians have you killed? Or would you prefer that I refer to them as "collateral damage"? But of course, they can be dismissed anyway, labelled as "insurgents" or "fanatics" (there were no "insurgents" in the colonies in 1776, eh - only patriots? And of course a fundamentalist Christian is not a fanatic because he has God, not Allah, on his side...)

So the towelheads shoulda done the decent thing and sent a wave of stealth bombers across to NY, so as to even up the odds a bit... Fucking cowardly cunts... No balls (funny I don't recall seeing their parachutes just before the planes hit...)

Sorry about this rant. All out of Jack Daniels so couldn't prevent a severe rush of logic and reason to the head...

Final thought: "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson. A cynical view, perhaps, but then so is "My country, right or wrong" Pardon us for being human. Tell ya what, let's have them fly planes into your buildings killing your peaple and see how yea react. Fuck man!!! You step on a bobcat's paw you're gonna get bitten.
Maybe america should just keep it's nose out of the middle east. But you know what the peaple don't get to make that choice. We just elect the leaders based on thier promises and then get fucked over when they don't follow through. Tell you what, imagine that a whole lot of peaple that you knew or cared about were in the towers then imagine that you had the power to find the person responisble and make them pay. What would you do? Don't even say you wouldn't use your power, basic human nature would assure that you would. And you know what? When the peaple responsible are useing thier own peaple/friends/relatives as shields hoping that you'll stay your hand becouse of it, there are gonna be some casualties.
THAT makes them cowards, That means they have no balls. And for you to be blind to that fact make you an idiot. If you disagree with me then ohwell shit happens. Clean it or eat it.

[Ixion]

Pardon us for being human. Tell ya what, let's have them fly planes into your buildings killing your peaple and see how yea react. Fuck man!!! You step on a bobcat's paw you're gonna get bitten.
Maybe america should just keep it's nose out of the middle east. But you know what the peaple don't get to make that choice. We just elect the leaders based on thier promises and then get fucked over when they don't follow through. Tell you what, imagine that a whole lot of peaple that you knew or cared about were in the towers then imagine that you had the power to find the person responisble and make them pay. What would you do? Don't even say you wouldn't use your power, basic human nature would assure that you would. And you know what? When the peaple responsible are useing thier own peaple/friends/relatives as shields hoping that you'll stay your hand becouse of it, there are gonna be some casualties.
THAT makes them cowards, That means they have no balls. And for you to be blind to that fact make you an idiot. If you disagree with me then ohwell shit happens. Clean it or eat it.


Dunno about all that. Too late at night and I don't have Jack Daniels or Famous Grouse. Just port. I have Muslim friends and USAian friends. All good people, I don't understand why they would want to kill one another. I wonder though: if we'd had the military muscle to do it, wouldn't we have wanted to bomb the shit out of France after Rainbow Warrior? Or not? Patriotism struggles with human decency here, I can't answer

[Waylander]

Dunno about all that. Too late at night and I don't have Jack Daniels or Famous Grouse. Just port. I have Muslim friends and USAian friends. All good people, I don't understand why they would want to kill one another. I wonder though: if we'd had the military muscle to do it, wouldn't we have wanted to bomb the shit out of France after Rainbow Warrior? Or not? Patriotism struggles with human decency here, I can't answer
That was mostly my point. Everyone tries to mock the states for this or that but the fact is if they were in the same position they wouldn't do any better.

As for Muslim peaple. I have nothing against them. The majority are perfectly great peaple it's just the few that fuck it up like anything else. And those few use the rest as a shield making it worse.

And the only thing I have running through me is a cold burning fury. No alchohol at all. Can't even go for a ride cause the gas I got in it has to last me two weeks till I get paid again. Fuck it I'm gone catch y'all in a few hours when I get back.


Sorry for bringing negative kharma into your thread SARGE.

[SARGE]

. Why are you surprised that civilians are targets? How many Iraqi civilians have you killed?


not enough Mike.. maybe if its Eye For an Eye we should get creative.. lets just see how Oz reacts if Melbourne gets hit as threatened..

[Krayy]

KRAVY DRIVES A 4WD!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

nice dress by the way
I HAVE AN EXCUSE (for the 4wd, not the dress :hitcher: )!!

The 4wd belongs to my Outlaws who are overseas and we're baby sitting it for them. It's not mine, I swear!! (mines a Dunny-door gas-guzzling wagon) Hate driving that thing actually. Feels like it's got a 20 degree lean on every corner. The daughter thinks it's great fun.

[MikeL]

Tell ya what, let's have them fly planes into your buildings killing your peaple and see how yea react. Fuck man!!! You step on a bobcat's paw you're gonna get bitten.
Maybe america should just keep it's nose out of the middle east. ...
And for you to be blind to that fact make you an idiot. If you disagree with me then ohwell shit happens. Clean it or eat it.

But the point is that it didn't happen here. There is no reason for it to happen here. What happened on 11th September in NY was not a random act. There was a logic behind it, even if you don't accept the reasoning. What is deplorable is not that you don't accept it, but that you are not willing to understand it. Trouble is, trying to comprehend your enemy's motives can come uncomfortably close to admitting your own faults.

"Maybe if America had kept its nose out of the Middle East!" Well, yes...
If the U.S. policy is to intervene wherever injustice occurs regardless of their own self-interest I might be able to take their moral high ground seriously.

"And for you to be blind to that fact makes you an idiot."

None so blind as those that will not see...

[Big Dave]

There was a logic behind it, even if you don't accept the reasoning.

No it wasn't - there is NO logic in that shit and the reasoning is irrational.

[Big Dave]

not enough Mike.. maybe if its Eye For an Eye we should get creative.. lets just see how Oz reacts if Melbourne gets hit as threatened..


Hopefully like the English and not you lot.

[Beemer]

Like many people, I can vividly remember what I was doing when I heard the news of the bombings. At first I thought "yeah, right, like THAT could have happened" but when I got into work and saw the tv footage I was stunned. I was working in a call centre at the time and the phones were so quiet it was uncanny. Everyone who did ring was polite and very subdued - not normal for power company customers!

I couldn't stop watching the footage that night, it was horrifying but I had to watch it again and again. It was one of the most terrifying events I had ever seen - in wartime you expect atrocities, but not in peacetime. All I remember thinking was "thank God my father passed away a few months ago, he didn't have to witness this".

I don't care how much people hate each other and how eloquently they can justify their acts of terrorism, this was pure evil.

Yes, I am glad I live in NZ where we are unlikely to experience this kind of terrorism (we just get dickheads throwing rocks off motorway overpasses), but my heart goes out to anyone affected by the bombings.

Good post, Sarge, I get tears in my eyes whenever I hear the Star Spangled Banner and I'm not even American!

[MikeL]

No it wasn't - there is NO logic in that shit and the reasoning is irrational.

See what I mean about an unwillingness to understand?

"Irrational reasoning" is an oxymoron. To deliberately fly a planeload of people into a building is an immoral act but it is not irrational. It was carefully planned and executed and achieved the intended purpose. What better definition of rational do you want?
By preferring to label it "irrational" you avoid having to deal with that awkward question of motives. Just consign them to the category of madmen and get on with the job of killing the bastards.

[Lou Girardin]

Hmm, at least the American leaders weren't slaughtering en masse their own people just because the didn't support the present regime eh?

Nice alcamahol rant anyway - and using good old J.D. too! Top marks.

They slaughtered 50,000 GI's propping up a corrupt regime in Vietnam. And they're now up to 2000 in Iraq.

The US reaction to the World Trade centre attack was and is like an enraged elephant blindly lashing out in all directions. They don't have a clue.
I also don't accept statements along the lines of it being Bush's fault, not the American people. They relected the bastard with an increased majority, they've got the leadership they deserve.

[Ixion]

See what I mean about an unwillingness to understand?

"Irrational reasoning" is an oxymoron. To deliberately fly a planeload of people into a building is an immoral act but it is not irrational. It was carefully planned and executed and achieved the intended purpose. What better definition of rational do you want?
By preferring to label it "irrational" you avoid having to deal with that awkward question of motives. Just consign them to the category of madmen and get on with the job of killing the bastards.

Hm. I think I recall that when the first atom bomb was dropped, there was some doubt whether the crew of the plane would survive, or if the fireball would get the plane also. They still went ahead, and I imagine that they would have done so even if they had known for certain that they would die.

Killing large numbers of civilians (by whatever means) is not pleasant.

But I doubt the crew of the atom bomb plane (Enola Gay ??) considered it to be either immoral or irrational

In war, people do such things. There have been many acts of bravery by servicemen which have resulted in the foreseeable and inevitable death of the doer. Such bravery is not considered wrong or irrational. We give such people (posthumous) medals.

The hijackers of Sep 11 considered themselves soldiers, fighting a war. The exigencies of that war meant that they would die, in the course of an attack on their enemy. They accepted that as being a part of a soldiers duty.

Not immoral, or irrational, or evil. Just very very sad, from every angle.

[WRT]

Hm. I think I recall that when the first atom bomb was dropped, there was some doubt whether the crew of the plane would survive, or if the fireball would get the plane also. They still went ahead, and I imagine that they would have done so even if they had known for certain that they would die.

The men on the Enola Gay did die from radiation related illness as a result of that flight.

[scumdog]

See what I mean about an unwillingness to understand?

To deliberately fly a planeload of people into a building is an immoral act but it is not irrational. It was carefully planned and executed and achieved the intended purpose.

Apart from wrecking two planes, two (or more) buildings and killing a shit-load of people WHAT was the 'intended purpose'?? :wait:

[scumdog]

They slaughtered 50,000 GI's propping up a corrupt regime in Vietnam. And they're now up to 2000 in Iraq.

What a waste, they should do as the old corrupt regime in Iraq did - slaughter them at home and save the transport bill (or con a lot of them to commit suicide).

[Lou Girardin]

The men on the Enola Gay did die from radiation related illness as a result of that flight.

Tibbets, the pilot, is still alive and well. A couple of others were interviewed in August about their part. No one died of radiation sickness, although I think one committed suicide.

[Ixion]

Apart from wrecking two planes, two (or more) buildings and killing a shit-load of people WHAT was the 'intended purpose'?? :wait:

Same as most things in war. Killing a shit load of people. More or less the definition of war, killing shitloads of people.

[WRT]

Tibbets, the pilot, is still alive and well. A couple of others were interviewed in August about their part. No one died of radiation sickness, although I think one committed suicide.

Curious, in the Auckland War museum the said that the men all died . . . was in there about two weeks ago, the section on Hiroshima makes for some sobering reading . . .

[SimJen]

Three of them are still alive, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4743061.stm

[MikeL]

Apart from wrecking two planes, two (or more) buildings and killing a shit-load of people WHAT was the 'intended purpose'?? :wait:

I can't speak for the persons responsible, but it's a likely bet that their intention was to inflict severe damage on a country which they considered their enemy. Does anyone doubt that they achieved this aim?

[Lou Girardin]

What a waste, they should do as the old corrupt regime in Iraq did - slaughter them at home and save the transport bill (or con a lot of them to commit suicide).

Saddam never managed to kill as many as the Yanks have in the last two years. But he did give his people the highest standard of living in the middle east. At least until Gulf War 1, that is.
And after all that, Bush and Co now accept that Iraq will be have to be an Islamic Republic (the same system as Iran). All that death and destruction to achieve nothing.

[MikeL]

not enough Mike.. maybe if its Eye For an Eye we should get creative.. lets just see how Oz reacts if Melbourne gets hit as threatened..

Eye for an Eye might work in the Old Testament and in Hollywood westerns, but it's hardly an intelligent way to secure a long-term solution.

[MikeL]

All that death and destruction to achieve nothing.

And 53,000 Americans went to Vietnam and came home in body bags. Their widows and children rightly honour their dead but this terrible sacrifice can only mean something if it made the world, or their part of it, a better, safer place. Learning a lesson from the bitter experience would at least have provided some consolation.

[scumdog]

I can't speak for the persons responsible, but it's a likely bet that their intention was to inflict severe damage on a country which they considered their enemy. Does anyone doubt that they achieved this aim?

Oh they did that alright - for why????

Has it improved their lot? nope, they're dead. Has it improved their countrymens lot? Nope, even more of them dead and the rest in a war-torn country (well even MORE war torn than they're use to).

The only thing it has really achieved is to create a lot of colourful pictures on your fish'n'chip wrappers. :whistle:

[Biff]

Does anyone doubt that they achieved this aim?

Erm - yeah – I do. At least in the medium to long term. Let's be brutally frank here, more Americans have possible just died (I hope not - but maybe) following the tragic events in the New Orleans area following the recent storms, and more people die every year from one off natural diasters and terrorist activities in countries that we don't hear so much about.

Not taking anything away from what did happen on September 11th, but the US population are nothing but patriotic, hardy and resolute in their beliefs. While these tragic events had a definite effect on the US psyche I don’t believe that the terrorists have achieved any real aim, other than making people hate them more, cause the public to (wrongly) question the Muslim faith even more and cause the death of thousands of innocent Muslims (Afghanistan, Iraq etc) because of Bush's wish to appear to be responding to the attacks in the US. So, can the attack really be said to have achieved it's, IMO misguided, aim?

[MikeL]

So, can the attack really be said to have achieved it's, IMO misguided, aim?

Whether it was misguided is a different question, and depends on whether all the consequences of these acts were fully considered. The fact is that if those responsible set out to inflict a severe blow on a nation that they perceived as an enemy, they achieved that aim. The repercussions of that attack have been enormous. The ongoing impact on ordinary Americans goes far beyond the loss of several thousand lives. As you point out, the death toll from the recent hurricane may well be several times that number. But that's not the point. The wound inflicted by the terrorists goes deep into the American psyche; what I think is even more significant is the effect of this symbolic act on international perceptions of American strength and weaknesses - political, military and moral.

[MikeL]

Oh they did that alright - for why????

Has it improved their lot? nope, they're dead. Has it improved their countrymens lot? Nope, even more of them dead and the rest in a war-torn country (well even MORE war torn than they're use to).

The only thing it has really achieved is to create a lot of colourful pictures on your fish'n'chip wrappers. :whistle:

You appear to subscribe to the following theories:
(1) that as a group they are dumbarses who didn't think through the consequences
(2) that living in a war-torn country with no hope of improving their lot and just lying down and accepting it is better than dying for a cause which, rightly or wrongly, turns them into noble martyrs
(3) that their enemy was not substantially harmed by their actions
(4) that it has not caused any reconsideration of policies and attitudes towards them internationally, nor thrown their cause into prominence

I'd like to see your evidence for the above...

I don't know about you, but to me there seems to be at least a glimmer of a rationale behind what happened.

Is understanding really so close to condoning that it's a no-no??

[Big Dave]

See what I mean about an unwillingness to understand?

"Irrational reasoning" is an oxymoron. To deliberately fly a planeload of people into a building is an immoral act but it is not irrational. It was carefully planned and executed and achieved the intended purpose. What better definition of rational do you want?
By preferring to label it "irrational" you avoid having to deal with that awkward question of motives. Just consign them to the category of madmen and get on with the job of killing the bastards.

I understand perfectly thanks. I'm particularly intelligent. You presume too much.

Actually killing anybody in the name of a ideaology or 'cause' is irrational, immoral and in the towel heads case the work of madmen. The gates of anyone's heaven are barred to mass murderers.

[Big Dave]

Scumdog - I think their intended aim has been achieved - To make USA go to war and give them fuel for continuing their Muslim extremist hatred.

[Hoon]

Watching most of the 4 hour 9/11 special on Discovery has really opened my eyes to the terrorist threat. The biggest mistake people make is assuming terrorists are just a bunch of crazy goat farmers with AKs (hell I did!). This couldn't be further from the truth. Not only are they well organised and funded (Oil sheik pals, corrupt govts in back pockets etc), they are also well educated with degrees in aviation, civil engineering, urban planning etc and they are all dedicated to the cause of killing as many jews, christians and Americans as possible. I know a muslim guy from Jordan, prays 5 times a day etc. Nice guy with a wife and kids but one day the subject turned to Jews and I have never seen a person express so much hatred and anger in my life.

Whats even more worrying is that these extremists spend all their time devising ways to acheive this. They then apply for funding for their project and once approved, get a nice grant from Uncle Osama. Taking out the World Trade Center with a stanley knife is an example of what these people are capable of.

Osamas plan was to start a Jihad against America and thats what he acheived. There are angry Muslims all over the world looking for a reason and Osama knew that a Jihad would summon muslims to his cause and he was right. These aren't the goat farmers of yesteryear but University graduates, businessmen and professionals of the 21st century. Look at Iraq, muslims coming from all over the world to cross the border and fight there. The Koran says that they will die martyrs, become heros in the after-life, have sex with 72 virgins and there is no shortage of volunteers!

[Lou Girardin]

Scumdog - I think their intended aim has been achieved - To make USA go to war and give them fuel for continuing their Muslim extremist hatred.

So why didn't the Yanks learn from Vietnam?

[Big Dave]

So why didn't the Yanks learn from Vietnam?


Because they are in part a militaristic and warlike, gun toting people. Their leader is the 'Commander in Chief' and it flows from there.
When there was no specific target they declared war on an emotion. It's like their politicans can't get elected without one.

(Sarge and Waylander - don't take offence - some of my best friends are 'mericans)

[Lou Girardin]

I understand perfectly thanks. I'm particularly intelligent. You presume too much.

Actually killing anybody in the name of a ideaology or 'cause' is irrational, immoral and in the towel heads case the work of madmen. The gates of anyone's heaven are barred to mass murderers.

Isn't it strange then that most, if not all, wars are fought for an ideology or cause. Were the crusades the work of madmen? Or are you only a madman when you belong to a different race?

[MikeL]

I understand perfectly thanks. I'm particularly intelligent. You presume too much.

Actually killing anybody in the name of a ideaology or 'cause' is irrational, immoral and in the towel heads case the work of madmen. The gates of anyone's heaven are barred to mass murderers.

I didn't say you were not capable of understanding. I said you were unwilling to understand.

Your second paragraph proves the point. I have clearly explained that the terrorist acts were immoral but not irrational because they were planned and executed for a purpose and achieved an intended result - that is rational behaviour, however wicked or immoral. You persist in defining the perpetrators as madmen: does this mean that you believe anyone committing such heinous acts, if they were to survive and be put on trial, should be found not guilty because of insanity?

If not, ask yourself what ulterior motive you have in defining them as madmen.

[Big Dave]

I didn't say you were not capable of understanding. I said you were unwilling to understand.



Like I told you before I *understand* perfectly.
You are confusing that with someone who disagrees with you.
End of discussion.

[Big Dave]

Isn't it strange then that most, if not all, wars are fought for an ideology or cause. Were the crusades the work of madmen? Or are you only a madman when you belong to a different race?


OK - what I meant in this case was the mass murder of innocents.

[Biff]

Whether it was misguided is a different question, and depends on whether all the consequences of these acts were fully considered. The fact is that if those responsible set out to inflict a severe blow on a nation that they perceived as an enemy, they achieved that aim. The repercussions of that attack have been enormous. The ongoing impact on ordinary Americans goes far beyond the loss of several thousand lives. As you point out, the death toll from the recent hurricane may well be several times that number. But that's not the point. The wound inflicted by the terrorists goes deep into the American psyche; what I think is even more significant is the effect of this symbolic act on international perceptions of American strength and weaknesses - political, military and moral.

Yup - all valid points. But the question you asked was did they achieve their aims. And since OBL has been on video stating that the attacks were intended to cripple the economies of the western world then the answer is no - they didn't succeed. Sure it dented the pockets of some airlines, and tourism in general, but that was a short term thing. The American psyche will get over it, but the shock of having such an atrocity happen on their own doorstep will last a generation.

[SARGE]

Yup - all valid points. But the question you asked was did they achieve their aims. And since OBL has been on video stating that the attacks were intended to cripple the economies of the western world then the answer is no - they didn't succeed. Sure it dented the pockets of some airlines, and tourism in general, but that was a short term thing. The American psyche will get over it, but the shock of having such an atrocity happen on their own doorstep will last a generation.


the Japanese thought that Pearl Harbor would stop the yanks in thier tracks too..these events tend to Galvinize the american people. (until the powers that be fuck up the response)

just a quick question here folks.. how many of you have experienced combat? how many have lost friends or family in a war or terrorist attack? how many have even served in the military?

reason im asking is that there seems to be a ton of "armchair Quarterbacking" going on here with little or no real world experience as to the nature of war and the mindset of those involved. International relations is a funny thing.. how far do you go? how much do you take before you lash out like a wounded bear? too little response and you look weak, an easy mark.. too much and you are labeled Imperialistic Scum. if you were the leader .. how far would YOU go?

i personally think Bush had a Soft Cock response.. i would have taken it much farther and shown what TERROR™ really is..

[Lou Girardin]

OK - what I meant in this case was the mass murder of innocents.

In one city seige during the crusades, a Christian commander ordered all unbelievers slain. When asked how the troops could tell the difference, he said, "kill them all, God will take his own".

[Lou Girardin]

the Japanese thought that Pearl Harbor would stop the yanks in thier tracks too..these events tend to Galvinize the american people. (until the powers that be fuck up the response)

just a quick question here folks.. how many of you have experienced combat? how many have lost friends or family in a war or terrorist attack? how many have even served in the military?

reason im asking is that there seems to be a ton of "armchair Quarterbacking" going on here with little or no real world experience as to the nature of war and the mindset of those involved. International relations is a funny thing.. how far do you go? how much do you take before you lash out like a wounded bear? too little response and you look weak, an easy mark.. too much and you are labeled Imperialistic Scum. if you were the leader .. how far would YOU go?

i personally think Bush had a Soft Cock response.. i would have taken it much farther and shown what TERROR™ really is..

Sorry Sarge, but what makes you think that some low ranking soldier knows anything, let alone more about the geo-political situation at any given time than the politicians running the world.
Did they give you regular briefings on the latest security reports from around the world. I somehow doubt it. Like all soldiers, you're told "these are the bad guys, go kill them".
If you did have that information, why did you all not insist on attacking Saudi Arabia? That's where the terrorists all came from and were funded by.
I'd hazard a guess that you have no idea of the origins of the middle eastern situation that we have now. have you read T E Lawrence, for example.
Your country's response to the World trade centre attacks has made the world immeasurably less safe than before.
If the US stopped regarding the President as having some form of Papal infallibilty and starting regarding the world in terms other than that of Die Hard, they may start to regain some of the respect they had in the 40's and 50's.

[MikeL]

just a quick question here folks.. how many of you have experienced combat? how many have lost friends or family in a war or terrorist attack? how many have even served in the military?



Why do you think it necessary to have had combat experience, or been directly affected by war in order to have a valid opinion on a country's foreign policy? I would never presume to give a soldier advice about tactics.
But whether to go to war, and the reasons or justifications for war, are political, not military decisions. We "armchair quarterbacks" may very well have a more balanced view of those considerations than the combat soldier...

[MikeL]

i personally think Bush had a Soft Cock response.. i would have taken it much farther and shown what TERROR™ really is..

I would be interested to know exactly what you would have done.

[Wolf]

OK - what I meant in this case was the mass murder of innocents.
**Puzzlement** Are you saying that the Muslims killed in the crusades were not "innocent"?

The Crusaders raped and murdered women and children as "heathens", they stole vast amounts of Saracen gold to take back to the Mother Church (the Templars didn't, they kept the gold they took and were proscribed, disbanded, tortured and burned on charges of "witchcraft" and "heresy").

Murder of "innocents" is not new - and most cases there was some form of ideology behind it - not just religious ideology; politics, racial hatred and fiscal policy have all had a pretty good innings.

They say that "the truth is the first casualty of war", but in many cases one could argue that "innocents" are the first casualties and the truth falls soon after because the aggressors have a damn good reason to lie...

[Big Dave]

I really don't want to talk about this - I came to KB because I was so over this topic on all the international boards.

My last words on this topic ever:
The Islamic murderers who kill thousands of people in the name of god and their religion are deluded and quite insane. How can anyone in their right mind believe that killing innocent people is the gateway to heaven. Madness.

The US has done exactly what these madmen wanted them to do. Played into their hands and have given them exactly the ammunition they needed to recruit more and more murderers. (i won't say terrorists)

mention The Crusades, Vietnam, Korea - whatever. None of them worked either.

It's a fuck up Arthur.

Ends.

[Marknz]

can I recommend that everyone read the following book?

America's Secret War, George Friedman, 0-385-51245-7

[Ixion]

Why do you think it necessary to have had combat experience, or been directly affected by war in order to have a valid opinion on a country's foreign policy? I would never presume to give a soldier advice about tactics.
But whether to go to war, and the reasons or justifications for war, are political, not military decisions. We "armchair quarterbacks" may very well have a more balanced view of those considerations than the combat soldier...

What is president Bush's combat experience ?

[SARGE]

.
Did they give you regular briefings on the latest security reports from around the world. I somehow doubt it. Like all soldiers, you're told "these are the bad guys, go kill them".



actually Lou.. i had more intel than the common foot-soldier. Tuba Players like mysellf usually did.



I would be interested to know exactly what you would have done.

bring back Napalm and WP..

Mike.. i KNOW the extremists mindset.. the only way to get to the point here is scare the living bejesus out of them.. make it more costly for them to act than it is worth,... target the families (great habib.. you can hide, but your mom's address is...xxx) target the basic survival nessessities, food water etc..starve them out.. yes.. thats extreme..i know that .. thats the only way to bring these cunts to the table



What is president Bush's combat experience ?

in my experience, the President does not require combat experience, he is surrounded by those who do and can advise him as needed


i didnt start this thread to get into the politics of it.. i just wanted to remember those who died and those who were involved..
if thats too much for all of you than i can just delete this thread, as it has been poisoned off of its original intent

[Lou Girardin]

bring back Napalm and WP..

Mike.. i KNOW the extremists mindset.. the only way to get to the point here is scare the living bejesus out of them.. make it more costly for them to act than it is worth,... target the families (great habib.. you can hide, but your mom's address is...xxx) target the basic survival nessessities, food water etc..starve them out.. yes.. thats extreme..i know that .. thats the only way to bring these cunts to the table



Fighting fire with fire makes us better than them, how?

[SARGE]

Fighting fire with fire makes us better than them, how?



dont make us better Lou.. i never advocated taking the high road... just get it over with and send the message that if you poke the bear, you are going to get bitten

who is the next target? ... Melbourne? Sydney? Wellington? Auckland?

[Lou Girardin]

I prefer to be better than the terrorist scum of the world. I think most of NZ does too. That's why we aren't a target.

[mstriumph]

have just read thru this thread :no:

--- am sad that it has degenerated from something quite touching, that everyone supported ....to the place it now seems to be

it could be good if peoples go back and re-read the start of the thread before continuing with this ....mebbe get back into the spirit of the original postings?

[Waylander]

have just read thru this thread :no:

--- am sad that it has degenerated from something quite touching, that everyone supported ....to the place it now seems to be

it could be good if peoples go back and re-read the start of the thread before continuing with this ....mebbe get back into the spirit of the original postings?
It's my fault. Just couldn't hold back when I read what-his-name's post earlier.

I appoligize again Sarge.

[MikeL]

Well, I make no apology for contributing to the "degeneration" of this thread, and I stand by everything I have written.
Sarge, you wrote in your first post "Politics aside, i hold my brother Soldiers, Sailors, and Marines in my heart every day, moreso on 11 September..." If you put politics aside, what is there to disagree about? The personal sacrifice, the pain, the grieving hearts - no decent human being can fail to be moved by these tragedies. But to question the political decisions which have brought about those sufferings is seen by some people as in some way diminishing those sacrifices and those tragedies. Not so...
Have you read the 1914-18 War Poets? I can't read Wilfred Owen or Siegfried Sassoon without tears coming to my eyes. Newsreel footage of the Vietnam War has a similar effect. Every man killed, gassed, blinded or maimed was a martyr to some policy decision made hundreds or thousands of miles away, by middle-aged men in comfortable arm-chairs sipping whisky and smoking cigars. Surely the question of whether the politicians' motives and justifications were good or bad is directly relevant to each of these individual tragedies?
The fact that you choose to be a soldier and trust the competence, good judgement and ethical behaviour of those in power because it is part of your job description doesn't mean that those of us who are not bound by the same rules are demeaning you when we criticise your leaders and their policies. We are actually on your side...
You may have inferred from my posts that I am anti-American. If you define that as not supporting current American policies then I have to plead guilty. But let me tell you this:
I have been to Washington DC 3 times, and every time I have stood before the Lincoln Memorial, or the Jefferson Memorial, or been to the National Archives, and read the words written by the founders of your nation, I have been moved to tears by the ideals that inspired those men. There is nothing in human history more noble or more inspiring than the principles of justice and equality on which the U.S.A. was founded. They represent the culmination of 2,500 years of political and social progress that started with Athenian democracy.
For a long while it seemed that in the struggle to live up to those ideals America would eventually be triumphant. Somewhere along the way those of us who had looked to the U.S. as a shining beacon of democracy, justice and hope became disillusioned. Why? It would take too long to explain, but the word "arrogance" would figure predominantly.

And what, I wonder, would George Washington, Thomas Jefferson or Abraham Lincoln have thought about the invasion of Iraq...?

[SARGE]

It's my fault. Just couldn't hold back when I read what-his-name's post earlier.

I appoligize again Sarge.


i think this started going downhill in the late 50's region somewhere..



you all know me as someone who isnt afraid to wallow into a political debate with both barrels blazing.. i really enjoy a spirited discourse.. if i am wrong .. i admit it..if i feel i am right or justified.. i will hold my ground like a mountain (that attitude has caused me no end of drama in my life.. i assure you)

this isnt about Politics.. this isnt about religion.. this is about 3000+ people who died just for going to work.. this is about ordinary people doing extraordinary things, both good and evil

yes i have a small prejudice agains Muslim extremists.. get inside my head after 1/2 litre of Single Malt and im sure you will have no doubts as to why. i also have an Iraqi mate that lives across the street.. when i moved in.. he saw me unpacking my American flag and he came over and introduced himself. we talked for hours and from one John Smith to another.. i think we understood each other .. the Ordinary Iraqi citizen is much like us.. just along for the ride while leaders play russian roulette with our kid's future.

i dont have a problem with joe schmo on the block... i dont hate Muslims.. i hate EXTREMISTS.. in any form.. Muslim, Christian, microsoft, Mac, Harley, Apprilia, Labour, National whatever..( athough the "Banana Republic" shit i see in the BOP is cracking me the fuck up..more on that later..)

there is no ONE TRUTH.. mine is different to yours.. your truth is different to his..whatever helps you sleep.




i didnt start this thread to get into the politics of it.. i just wanted to remember those who died and those who were involved..
if thats too much for all of you than i can just delete this thread, as it has been poisoned off of its original intent

[Swoop]

I prefer to be better than the terrorist scum of the world. I think most of NZ does too. That's why we aren't a target.

Yeah, right... "we're NOT a target".
:rofl: :rofl: :angry2: :angry2:
Look at the make up of NZ society today... Cells are already established here.



This is the mindset that led so many kiwis to their graves during so many conflicts - mainly by the class structure of the british ("Lord xyz - you can be a general, be a good chap and go and lead those men over there").

[SARGE]

Yeah, right... "we're NOT a target".
:rofl: :rofl: :angry2: :angry2:
Look at the make up of NZ society today... Cells are already established here.
.


i agree wholeheartedly Swoop.. and the sad part is that the higher-ups have turned a blind eye to it because , in thier mind, there is no way NZ could be targeted because of your politics ( or lack thereof)

bet your ass there are groups who agree with them at the very least here... wouldnt take much to recruit a few Kiwi suicide bombers

( Friday night at the Viaduct Harbor when there is a bigassed cruise ship docked... right by the water taxi stand.. BOOOOOM!!.. another 30 seconds later under the big black boat as everyone runs away..another 45 seconds after the first at the other end..car bomb in the big parking structure 10 minutes after the initial blast as everyone is trying to get out...500 dead.. 3000 wounded with a loss of 4 terrorists..pretty good return on investment..)

[N4CR]

We didn't illegally invade a country did we though?

Nope... no jihadin' needed here.

Hell we ain't even a very christian country, so I don't think the Koran would cover us in its little rule section that the extremists seem to (ab)use.

[SARGE]

We didn't illegally invade a country did we though?


neither did Bali


and if you will look at the start of a democraticlly elected government that is starting to form in Iraq..you will start to see that it was for the best anyway. the Iraqis are going to be better off for it in the long run. nothing is ever made better without a bit of blood, sweat and tears.

read the book " America's Secret War'.. this war started 25 years ago...this is just another battle in it. there are some Geo-Politics going on here that you and I will never know about. some of the shit i was involved with in the early 80's is just starting to come to light now..some stuff wont be known for another 50 years





Hell we ain't even a very christian country, so I don't think the Koran would cover us in its little rule section that the extremists seem to (ab)use.


an 'Infidel' is anyone that does not accept Allah as the one true gawd..that includeds athiests and agnostics alike..so yes.. it applies to you also.

putting your head in the sand is a great way to get shot in the ass

[Grahameeboy]

I think it is important to remember that the September 11 attack was not just about America. The attack was on the World Trade Centre and more non-Americans were killed......American, English, Gerrman etc, they are all people but the attack was on the World.
Probably hard to believe but America was probably the easiest of the 'Big' nations to attack in this manner.......England has not suffered and from my understanding Bali was really about Indonesia....remember terriorists are like mercenaries.
Anyway, it's Christmas and time to think about things closer to home eh?

[Grahameeboy]

I think it is important to remember that the September 11 attack was not just about America. The attack was on the World Trade Centre and more non-Americans were killed......American, English, Gerrman etc, they are all people but the attack was on the World.
Probably hard to believe but America was probably the easiest of the 'Big' nations to attack in this manner.......England has not suffered and from my understanding Bali was really about Indonesia....remember terriorists are like mercenaries.
Anyway, it's Christmas and time to think about things closer to home eh?

Should have qualified...yes there were the backpack bombings but England has not suffered a Sept 11 event and sad to say that we have been used to terriorist attacks...

[Lou Girardin]

neither did Bali


That attack was aimed at Aussies. You know, Sherrif Bush's deputy - Bonsai Howard. (Motto - show me a Merkin arse and I'll kiss it)

[Grahameeboy]

That attack was aimed at Aussies. You know, Sherrif Bush's deputy - Bonsai Howard. (Motto - show me a Merkin arse and I'll kiss it)

Poor Aussies.....thats the trouble when you want to get out of the playground and join the adults...

[chris]

One or two posters have mentioned the attacks on the World Trade Center and the war in Iraq in the same post as though there is a direct link. Why?

[Grahameeboy]

One or two posters have mentioned the attacks on the World Trade Center and the war in Iraq in the same post as though there is a direct link. Why?

There is a topical link and the war started after Sept 11.......one for Mr Bush to answer I reckon although they are not totally unrelated....anyway this is why this forum is called a 'Thread'...weavings about a bit...

[riffer]

One or two posters have mentioned the attacks on the World Trade Center and the war in Iraq in the same post as though there is a direct link. Why?

Because the US government has linked the two.

IMHO the US is turning into a fascist kingdom under Bush.

Most Americans I've met have been great. But I don't support their government.

Then again, I don't support ours either :meh:

[chris]

although they are not totally unrelated I can think of a common religious link, anything else?

I'm not particularly concerned by any of the Middle Eastern countries, China, North Korea etc, but the US, led by Bush......hmmmm.

[Lou Girardin]

One or two posters have mentioned the attacks on the World Trade Center and the war in Iraq in the same post as though there is a direct link. Why?

Because George Dubya says so and it sounds better than "we're attacking Iraq to get their oil".

[SARGE]

Because George Dubya says so and it sounds better than "we're attacking Iraq to get their oil".


again Lou...


BULLSHIT..


this war has nothing to do with oil. the reason that Sept 11 and Iraq are linked is that 9/11 was the key that unlocked the lion's cage.. someone lit the fuse and Iraq was unfinished business.. whatever the reason, it had to happen..if not now, then in our kids time..after Hussein was stronger and more dug in.


and if you don't believe that sympathisers are in NZ .. just look around



i may just be paranoid but thats why im still alive to this day. (i prefer ' hightened state of alert')

[Lou Girardin]

again Lou...


BULLSHIT..


this war has nothing to do with oil. the reason that Sept 11 and Iraq are linked is that 9/11 was the key that unlocked the lion's cage.. someone lit the fuse and Iraq was unfinished business.. whatever the reason, it had to happen..if not now, then in our kids time..after Hussein was stronger and more dug in.


and if you don't believe that sympathisers are in NZ .. just look around



i may just be paranoid but thats why im still alive to this day. (i prefer ' hightened state of alert')


You're logged on in work time: nono:

Watch out sarge the paranoids are after you.

PS Why was the original Iraq constitution amended to reduce oil royalties payable to Iraq?
No it's not about oil.:yes:

[SARGE]

You're logged on in work time: nono:

Watch out sarge the paranoids are after you.

PS Why was the original Iraq constitution amended to reduce oil royalties payable to Iraq?
No it's not about oil.:yes:



im not logged in at work... you are seeing things ...im logged into my home computer via VPN and THEN logged in from there ...

its not about the oil... if the oil is a side effect so be it ..

[Swoop]

England has not suffered
WHAT? I guess that ideologically motivated groups running around with backpacks of explosives determined to cause mass murder on public transport systems, means diddly-squat to you!



remember terriorists are like mercenaries.
What are you smoking? Completely the opposite. Mercenarys play ball for money and/or personal gain (you should be used to it in our society - simply look at any professional sportsperson who signs to a team for a price. It's the same thing) whereas terrorists follow an ideological path. One cannot simply try to classify these two seperate groups as one.

[Swoop]

( Friday night at the Viaduct Harbor when there is a bigassed cruise ship docked... right by the water taxi stand.. BOOOOOM!!.. another 30 seconds later under the big black boat as everyone runs away..another 45 seconds after the first at the other end..car bomb in the big parking structure 10 minutes after the initial blast as everyone is trying to get out...500 dead.. 3000 wounded with a loss of 4 terrorists..pretty good return on investment..)
Interesting how quickly kiwis have forgotten the Rainbow Warrior incident...

It's a bit different when you are standing on a bombed and partially sunken ship in your own harbour. Going through the vessel in dry dock, after raising, was rather interesting on the froggies "intentions" for this job...
(as I've said on other threads - france would make the ideal testing ground for nukes...)

Folks, terrorism isn't something that happens overseas. The ozzies have realised this, we need to do the same.

[SARGE]

Folks, terrorism isn't something that happens overseas. The ozzies have realised this, we need to do the same.


its the old " it'll never happen here" thing that got alot of people killed on 9/11


complacency is a killer..

[Jackrat]

its the old " it'll never happen here" thing that got alot of people killed on 9/11


complacency is a killer..

Place would be a shit load safer if all the septics fucked off.
Sleep with dogs an ya' catch fleas.
By the way I read your little bit of poetry on an American web site last year.
Nice try but:laugh:

[SARGE]

Place would be a shit load safer if all the septics fucked off.
Sleep with dogs an ya' catch fleas.
By the way I read your little bit of poetry on an American web site last year.
Nice try but:laugh:


which bit of poetry are you referring to?

and the place would be much safer if you got rid of the Asian Triads, the raghead refuges and the NZ Police department


seems to me that all the Seth Africkans hang out together .. the Poms , the Asians, the indians, the rags etc.. seems if they come to NZ.. they should try and blend in a bit better and adopt the customs of NZ as opposed to having thier own little communities

i could be wrong though


i dont hang out with too many "Seppo's" if any.. but ive been other places in the word, not just out to the shed like a few people on here ( i hear banjo's sometimes when i log in)

[Sniper]

i dont hang out with too many "Seppo's" if any.. but ive been other places in the word, not just out to the shed like a few people on here ( i hear banjo's sometimes when i log in)

Hahaha I haven't heard the word seppo in many a year

[Waylander]

( i hear banjo's sometimes when i log in)
Knew there was some reason I felt at home here.

[Wolf]

( i hear banjo's sometimes when i log in)
Alright, who's been sodomising the tourists again?!

[Karma]

which bit of poetry are you referring to?

and the place would be much safer if you got rid of the Asian Triads, the raghead refuges and the NZ Police department


seems to me that all the Seth Africkans hang out together .. the Poms , the Asians, the indians, the rags etc.. seems if they come to NZ.. they should try and blend in a bit better and adopt the customs of NZ as opposed to having thier own little communities

i could be wrong though


i dont hang out with too many "Seppo's" if any.. but ive been other places in the word, not just out to the shed like a few people on here ( i hear banjo's sometimes when i log in)

I try and integrate, but 'birds of a feather' and all that...

I don't care if a bird is Kiwi, English, Irish, Scottish, whatever... if she's a looker then I'll integrate :blip:

[WINJA]

in 1985 we had an act of terrorism in nz , what still suprises me today is the lack of international support from the us ,aussie and europe, im still hoping that terrorists target france next and make those fuckers pay big time , i went to see that ship and i was shocked , i still wish we had executed those french bastards.

http://library.christchurch.org.nz/childrens/nzdisasters/rainbowwarrior.asp

[oldrider]

I have just read this thread through from start. Freedom of speech is great but some of the posts on here are a real worry.
God (Yours mine and theirs) help us. What a fruit salad of shit I have just read. Who's sense is the common one.
Good on you for the spirit of your initial thread and post SARGE, unfortunately it got stolen and completely fucked up along the way but such is the price of freedom.
So many men so many opinions, democracy and freedom working harmoniously on Kiwi Biker. Yeah right! Cheers John.

[Wolf]

The bastard that organised it is living in the States making big money selling anti-terrorist weapons, according to a doco I watched.

I generally disagree with the death penalty but I make exceptions in the case of terrorism. Terrorists need to see we're not terrified and will not be threatened.

I used to see on the news that some terrorists had been arrested and their mates would capture a plane and say "release our brethren or we'll execute the hostages" - and they executed the hostages, too.

Personally I would have marched all their "brethren" out onto the runway the minute the first hostage died and gunned down a couple of them in plain view of the hijackers. "Keep killing hostages and we keep killing those you claim to want to liberate - then, when you've run out of hostages and we've run out of your mates, we're going to board the plane and kill half of you. You can try to guess which half. The other half can wait in jail for your mates to try to liberate you..."

[scumdog]

I have just read this thread through from start. Freedom of speech is great but some of the posts on here are a real worry.
God (Yours mine and theirs) help us. What a fruit salad of shit I have just read. Who's sense is the common one.
Good on you for the spirit of your initial thread and post SARGE, unfortunately it got stolen and completely fucked up along the way but such is the price of freedom.
So many men so many opinions, democracy and freedom working harmoniously on Kiwi Biker. Yeah right! Cheers John.

Hell John, let 'em have their rant!
The fact that they DID NOT rant does not mean they don't think like that, we all ahve our ideas and some are not what oldies like you and I agree with.
NZ needs to sharpen up its immigration policy and acceptance of 'refugees'

[scumdog]

The bastard that organised it is living in the States making big money selling anti-terrorist weapons, according to a doco I watched.


Personally I would have marched all their "brethren" out onto the runway the minute the first hostage died and gunned down a couple of them in plain view of the hijackers. "Keep killing hostages and we keep killing those you claim to want to liberate - then, when you've run out of hostages and we've run out of your mates, we're going to board the plane and kill half of you. You can try to guess which half. The other half can wait in jail for your mates to try to liberate you..."

I agree whole-heartedly, when is a Government in this world going to have the balls to do THAT???:2guns:
Fuck hi-jackers, hostage takers and othe assorted loser, you take a hostage - you die and so do your mates.

[Brett]

If you are a half decent marine, who the hell is gonna bad rep you for it...surely you could just kung fu their ass!!
Seriously tho, good post, apprectiate the angle that it comes from.

[SARGE]

I agree whole-heartedly, when is a Government in this world going to have the balls to do THAT???:2guns:
Fuck hi-jackers, hostage takers and othe assorted loser, you take a hostage - you die and so do your mates.


ive said it once and i will continue to say it even onto my last breath... the only way to put an end to this bullshit is to scare the bejesus out of the " terrorists" ..let them know that any action they take will prove more costly than they were expecting.. cant find the leaders?.. find thier moms and dads.. drag them in front of a camera and have them beheaded like they do with the hostages.. napalm thier villages and rape thier livestock.. then show Soldiers and Marines dragging moms burnt body through the street and hang her on a bridge.. get Medieval on thier asses and see the shit come to a dead stop.

they dont play by the rules.. why take the high road?.. looks like the rules of engagement have been fairly well laid out and we should play right along..


brutal is as brutal does.. war is hell... not a parlor game ... deal with it or join Hari Krishna or the fuckin Green Party

[SARGE]

I agree whole-heartedly, when is a Government in this world going to have the balls to do THAT???:2guns:
Fuck hi-jackers, hostage takers and othe assorted loser, you take a hostage - you die and so do your mates.


ive said it once and i will continue to say it even onto my last breath... the only way to put an end to this bullshit is to scare the bejesus out of the " terrorists" ..let them know that any action they take will prove more costly than they were expecting.. cant find the leaders?.. find thier moms and dads.. drag them in front of a camera and have them beheaded like they do with the hostages.. napalm thier villages and rape thier livestock.. then show Soldiers and Marines dragging moms burnt body through the street and hang her on a bridge.. get Medieval on thier asses and see the shit come to a dead stop.

they dont play by the rules.. why take the high road?.. looks like the rules of engagement have been fairly well laid out and we should play right along..


brutal is as brutal does.. war is hell... not a parlor game ... deal with it or join Hari Krishna or the fuckin Green Party


If you are a half decent marine, who the hell is gonna bad rep you for it...surely you could just kung fu their ass!!
Seriously tho, good post, apprectiate the angle that it comes from.


suprisingly Brett.. i have recievd well over 500 green points for the original post and not one red..


as far as " Kung Fu"... i prefer th USMC CQB (Close Quarter Battle)..yea.. im a big jolly friendly motherfucker... until the line is crossed. then shit gets ugly in a big blue hurry


no posing and "KIIIIEEE-YA' ing and WAY more effective and you dont look like a homo

[Brett]

Why surprisingly?? It is a good thread why should you get any red points??

[Brett]

as far as " Kung Fu"... i prefer th USMC CQB (Close Quarter Battle)..yea.. im a big jolly friendly motherfucker... until the line is crossed. then shit gets ugly in a big blue hurry


no posing and "KIIIIEEE-YA' ing and WAY more effective and you dont look like a homo


How long do they spend training you on close contact fighting in the marines?

[Wolf]

The thing that stood out in the events of Sept 11 for me was the way the passengers on the third plane took out the terrorists and cheated them of their target - sent a message back saying "you are not the only ones prepared to go to your deaths, we the citizens will also go to our deaths to thwart your plans." I cried when I heard of it then, and cried more as the details became known - the cellphone calls etc. I'm crying now.

It is when the citizenry - not the soldiers or the police or the rescue services - stand up and say "No. Not this time. No more." and pay for it with their lives, knowing that they're dead either way and that they might as well make their deaths mean something and send back a message that they are not prepared to go out without a struggle - that is heroism. They weren't paid to be protectors of the people or guardians of the country, they were average citizens.

Those passengers on the flight, above all, I salute. I feel sorrow for all the lives lost that day except for the lives of the terrorists, so many people who died needlessly. That some had managed to snatch back a victory of sorts is a wonderful thing. All strength to them.

[SARGE]

Why surprisingly?? It is a good thread why should you get any red points??



hell... i figured i'd get a few reds from the Soft Cock contingent ..dont matter either way cuz i have enough posts and rep point to do serious damage to anyone's rep count who tries now..very few have ever recived a red from me and thats how i like to keep it..

[WINJA]

i totally agree with you sarge , i dont give a fuck about terrorists mums , dads or whatevers , id be happy to kill and torture a million of there family just to protect 1 of mine.
sadly the u.s. doesnt fight dirty anymore , they need to start using bullets dipped in pigs blood , prisoners need to be shot and buried with pigs guts , detainees should be force feed bacon and they need to be locked up with a pig , it all needs to be videoed and put on aljezzera tv. that way those dirty fuckers will think they wont see allah when they die .
but first the u.s needs to find the right country , iraq??? dont think so

[SARGE]

i totally agree with you sarge , i dont give a fuck about terrorists mums , dads or whatevers , id be happy to kill and torture a million of there family just to protect 1 of mine.
sadly the u.s. doesnt fight dirty anymore , they need to start using bullets dipped in pigs blood , prisoners need to be shot and buried with pigs guts , detainees should be force feed bacon and they need to be locked up with a pig , it all needs to be videoed and put on aljezzera tv. that way those dirty fuckers will think they wont see allah when they die .
but first the u.s needs to find the right country , iraq??? dont think so


iraq is a nice starting point.. look towards Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria...

Al Jazeera??... nah.. Pay Per View man..

i'd book it..

by the way.. the lower case shit is starting to freak me out ..

[Wolf]

by the way.. the lower case shit is starting to freak me out ..
Soon he'll be using mixed case and we won't be able to spot his posts among all the others...

[SARGE]

Soon he'll be using mixed case and we won't be able to spot his posts among all the others...


yEa..tHat w0uLd T0tAlLy mInd- fUcK mE

[WINJA]

soon he'll be using mixed case and we won't be able to spot his posts among all the others...
---------------


that jerk off spankme stopped me using caps , sizes ,colours or qoutes , and i cant open some attachments . hes getting bored with his ants

[Wolf]

There was a time that if a they wanted to wipe out a few targets they put a bomb in a truck or sent in someone in "clothing by Dupont" or some other form of not-so-smart-bomb. If they took a plane or a bus full of people it was to "negotiate" the release of their "fellow freedom fighters illegally detained blah blah blah" and it was understood that there was a chance that at least some of the hostages might survive if they could be talked out or a suitable strike team could stage a rescue.

Those days are gone. Since Sept 11, any hijacking of a form of transport will be perceived as a suicide run in which the occupants of that vehicle as well as the unknown target are to be killed as part of the reign of terror.

That is certainly how I would perceive it and I dare say most people would be the same - they would see Sept 11 happening all over again - any statements from the terrorists that they are to be held hostage and released unharmed if the demands are met, would not be believed.

If I were on a plane or even a bus and some bugger fronted up with weapons and took control, I would seriously believe that I was going to die - along with my fellow passengers and whomever was at whatever location the vehicle was being diverted to.

In reality, they have forever removed one of their "tools" for applying leverage. Any internally guided vehicle that is taken over will be shot down or forcibly destroyed to minimise the loss of life that could occur should it reach its target.

There will be those out there who have come to the same conclusion as I that would believe that the terrorists intend crashing the vehicle into a target should it be taken over and may decide to do as the passengers on that third plane did, but acting earlier because they believe from the outset that they are "dead anyway". They probably would not wait to hear that other vehicles have already been used as weapons against prominent targets - from their stand point, they already have, the "rules of engagement" have irrevocably changed.

I hope I am never on a vehicle that is taken over by terrorists, but if I ever were, I hope I would have the ability to take at least one of the hijackers down.

I've faced death several times - enough to know that I do not freak out. I become very calm and tranquil (we just won't mention the state I'm in after I get out of the situation alive and I realise I'm now "safe" :whistle: )

Now, they will doubless change their tactics again to keep us all guessing and wondering where it's coming from next. As we now know that they cannot be trusted to keep a plane load of hostages alive long enough to attempt to coerce, so too do they know that not everyone fears them and that acts of heroism on the part of the average citizenry - self sacrifice for the greater good - are likely to become the norm.

Congrats, dickheads, you've turned every person in the world into potential "soldiers" against your "cause"!

[tracyprier]

We didn't illegally invade a country did we though?

Nope... no jihadin' needed here.

Hell we ain't even a very christian country, so I don't think the Koran would cover us in its little rule section that the extremists seem to (ab)use.

Yeah, nice thought but unforunately extremists just see two types of people... them and everyone else who just happens to be the "enemy" and therefore fair game.

It IS time the Pollies in this little island woke the hell-up and realised that we ARE a target, less so than some other countries but a target all the same.

[tracyprier]

I agree whole-heartedly, when is a Government in this world going to have the balls to do THAT???:

Actually the old Soviet Union did. They always armed their flight crews and had a zero tolerance policy; you hijack a plane, you get ventilated by a couple of Tokarevs... simple.

[Lou Girardin]

I'm starting to go blind from the glare off all the red necks around here.
Have any of you kill 'em all types thought about the quality of American intelligence ( an oxymoron if there ever was one).
They wouldn't allow a 3 month old child to board a plane because his name was on an anti-terrorism 'no - fly' list.
How are people like this going to identify terrorists let alone their families.
The Nazis tried those tactics against insurgents, it didn't work then. It won't work now.
Guys, go back to your banjo's and think a spell.

[emaN]

I'm not particularly concerned by any of the Middle Eastern countries, China, North Korea etc, but the US, led by Bush......hmmmm.

Having read thru' the whole shi-bang,agreeing with OldRider,this one sticks out mo' than most...
Dude, i'm concerned about you!

[SARGE]

Place would be a shit load safer if all the septics fucked off.
Sleep with dogs an ya' catch fleas.
:




I humbly offer my apologies here:

I am sorry that the last seven times we Americans took up arms and sacrificed the blood of our youth, it was in the defense of Muslims (Bosnia, Kosovo, Gulf War 1, Kuwait, Beruit etc.).

I am sorry that no such call for an apology upon the extremists came after 9/11.

I am sorry that all of the murderers on 9/11 were Islamic Arabs.

I am sorry that most Arabs and Muslims have to live in squalor under savage dictatorships.

I am sorry that their leaders squander their wealth,

I am sorry that their governments breed hate for the US in their religious schools, mosques, and government-controlled media.

I am sorry that Yasir Arafat was kicked out of every Arab country and high-jacked the Palestinian "cause.

I am sorry that no other Arab country will take in or offer more than a token amount of financial help to those same Palestinians.

I am sorry that the USA has to step in and be the biggest financial supporter of poverty stricken Arabs while the insanely wealthy Arabs blame the USA for all their problems.

I am sorry that our own left wing, our media, and our own brainwashed masses do not understand any of this (from the misleading vocal elements of our society, like radical professors, CNN and the NY TIMES).

I am sorry the United Nations scammed the poor people of Iraq out of the "food for oil" money so they could get rich while the common folk suffered.

I am sorry that some Arab governments pay the families of homicide bombers upon their death.

I am sorry that those same bombers are brainwashed thinking they will receive 72 virgins in "paradise."

I am sorry that the homicide bombers think pregnant women, babies, children, the elderly and other non-combatant civilians are legitimate targets.

I am sorry that our troops die to free more Arabs from the gang rape rooms and the filling of mass graves of dissidents of their own making.

I am sorry that Muslim extremists have killed more Arabs than any other group.

I am sorry that foreign trained terrorists are trying to seize control of Iraq and return it to a terrorist state.

I am sorry we don't drop a few dozen Daisy cutters on Fallujah.

I am sorry every time terrorists hide they find a convenient "Holy Site."

I am sorry they didn't apologize for driving a jet into the World Trade Center that collapsed and severely damaged Saint Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church — one of our Holy Sites.

I am sorry they didn't apologize for flight 93 and175, the USS Cole, the embassy bombings, Beruit, the murders and beheadings of Nick Bergand, Daniel Pearl, etc...etc,



We hang out our dirty laundry for the entire world to see. We move on. That's one of the reasons we are hated so much. We don't hide this stuff like all those Arab countries that are now demanding an apology.

Deep down inside, when most Americans saw Abu Garib reported in the news, we were like—so what? We lost hundreds and made fun of a few prisoners. Sure, it was wrong! Sure, it dramatically hurts our cause, but until captured, we were trying to kill those same prisoners. Now we're supposed to wring our hands because a few were humiliated?

Our compassion is tempered with the vivid memories of our own people killed, mutilated and burned among a joyous crowd of celebrating Fallujahans.

If you want an apology from this American, you're going to have a long wait!

You have a better chance of finding those seventy-two virgins!

[Skyryder]

I humbly offer my apologies here:

I am sorry that the last seven times we Americans took up arms and sacrificed the blood of our youth, it was in the defense of Muslims (Bosnia, Kosovo, Gulf War 1, Kuwait, Beruit etc.).

I am sorry that no such call for an apology upon the extremists came after 9/11.

I am sorry that all of the murderers on 9/11 were Islamic Arabs.

I am sorry that most Arabs and Muslims have to live in squalor under savage dictatorships.

I am sorry that their leaders squander their wealth,

I am sorry that their governments breed hate for the US in their religious schools, mosques, and government-controlled media.

I am sorry that Yasir Arafat was kicked out of every Arab country and high-jacked the Palestinian "cause.

I am sorry that no other Arab country will take in or offer more than a token amount of financial help to those same Palestinians.

I am sorry that the USA has to step in and be the biggest financial supporter of poverty stricken Arabs while the insanely wealthy Arabs blame the USA for all their problems.

I am sorry that our own left wing, our media, and our own brainwashed masses do not understand any of this (from the misleading vocal elements of our society, like radical professors, CNN and the NY TIMES).

I am sorry the United Nations scammed the poor people of Iraq out of the "food for oil" money so they could get rich while the common folk suffered.

I am sorry that some Arab governments pay the families of homicide bombers upon their death.

I am sorry that those same bombers are brainwashed thinking they will receive 72 virgins in "paradise."

I am sorry that the homicide bombers think pregnant women, babies, children, the elderly and other non-combatant civilians are legitimate targets.

I am sorry that our troops die to free more Arabs from the gang rape rooms and the filling of mass graves of dissidents of their own making.

I am sorry that Muslim extremists have killed more Arabs than any other group.

I am sorry that foreign trained terrorists are trying to seize control of Iraq and return it to a terrorist state.

I am sorry we don't drop a few dozen Daisy cutters on Fallujah.

I am sorry every time terrorists hide they find a convenient "Holy Site."

I am sorry they didn't apologize for driving a jet into the World Trade Center that collapsed and severely damaged Saint Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church — one of our Holy Sites.

I am sorry they didn't apologize for flight 93 and175, the USS Cole, the embassy bombings, Beruit, the murders and beheadings of Nick Bergand, Daniel Pearl, etc...etc,



We hang out our dirty laundry for the entire world to see. We move on. That's one of the reasons we are hated so much. We don't hide this stuff like all those Arab countries that are now demanding an apology.

Deep down inside, when most Americans saw Abu Garib reported in the news, we were like—so what? We lost hundreds and made fun of a few prisoners. Sure, it was wrong! Sure, it dramatically hurts our cause, but until captured, we were trying to kill those same prisoners. Now we're supposed to wring our hands because a few were humiliated?

Our compassion is tempered with the vivid memories of our own people killed, mutilated and burned among a joyous crowd of celebrating Fallujahans.

If you want an apology from this American, you're going to have a long wait!

You have a better chance of finding those seventy-two virgins!


Good post Sarge. Nothing like a good ol' patriotic rave. Feel a bit like that myself after reading your post. I seem to recall that the Americans knew of the impending French terrorist atack on the Rainbow Warrior. But being the good freind that they were to New Zealand they forgot to tell us.

Skyryder

[Wolf]

Good post Sarge. Nothing like a good ol' patriotic rave. Feel a bit like that myself after reading your post. I seem to recall that the Americans knew of the impending French terrorist atack on the Rainbow Warrior. But being the good freind that they were to New Zealand they forgot to tell us.

Skyryder
The guy behind the Rainbow Warrior bombing is now living in America, manufacturing anti-terrorist weapons - totally unrepentant. I feel like going over there, grabbing one of his own weapons and shooting him with it, just to see how effective it is at eliminating terrorist scum.

That or blowing up a ship full of French miltary - if I could achieve it without them surrendering the second I got within thirty kilometres of them...

[WINJA]

The guy behind the Rainbow Warrior bombing is now living in America, manufacturing anti-terrorist weapons - totally unrepentant. I feel like going over there, grabbing one of his own weapons and shooting him with it, just to see how effective it is at eliminating terrorist scum.

That or blowing up a ship full of French miltary - if I could achieve it without them surrendering the second I got within thirty kilometres of them...
STILL BITTER ABOUT THE RAINBOW WARIOUR , ALWAYS HOPE AND PRAY THAT THE NEXT BIG TERRORIST ACT IS IN FRANCE AND IS HUGE , WEATHER YOUR A TREE HUGGING HIPPY OR NOT THEY FUCKED WITH ALL OF US WHEN THEY BOMBED THAT BOAT IN "OUR" HARBOUR

[scumdog]

i totally agree with you sarge , i dont give a fuck about terrorists mums , dads or whatevers , id be happy to kill and torture a million of there family just to protect 1 of mine.
sadly the u.s. doesnt fight dirty anymore , they need to start using bullets dipped in pigs blood , prisoners need to be shot and buried with pigs guts , detainees should be force feed bacon and they need to be locked up with a pig , it all needs to be videoed and put on aljezzera tv. that way those dirty fuckers will think they wont see allah when they die .
but first the u.s needs to find the right country , iraq??? dont think so

Wouldn't go quite as far as you WINJA but I bet the suicide bombings would drop a tad if it was broadcast that all the suicide bombers remains would be buried in pigskin (that way they would never get to heaven)
Of course if i was king the remains would be fed to pigs - and the spectacle publicly broadcast live.

[Skyryder]

STILL BITTER ABOUT THE RAINBOW WARIOUR , ALWAYS HOPE AND PRAY THAT THE NEXT BIG TERRORIST ACT IS IN FRANCE AND IS HUGE , WEATHER YOUR A TREE HUGGING HIPPY OR NOT THEY FUCKED WITH ALL OF US WHEN THEY BOMBED THAT BOAT IN "OUR" HARBOUR

Another thing that is not widlely known is that when the French secret service agents Alain Mafart and Dominique Prieur were being held in custody at Rolleston Prison there were serious fears that they would be 'sprung.' Lange's decision to have them serve out there time at Muriora atoll (??) was, in part, in fear of this. However the real reason for Lange's decision was that France was threating our trade within the European community. But what pisses me off more than anything else about the Rainbow Warrior bombing was that the National Party was in the throes of formulating policy that would exploit Frances threat to our trade for their own political gain.

Skyryder

[Pixie]

The guy behind the Rainbow Warrior bombing is now living in America, manufacturing anti-terrorist weapons - totally unrepentant. I feel like going over there, grabbing one of his own weapons and shooting him with it, just to see how effective it is at eliminating terrorist scum.

That or blowing up a ship full of French miltary - if I could achieve it without them surrendering the second I got within thirty kilometres of them...
I'll never forgive the French for the sabotage in Auckland.
They had the chance to kill all those hippies and only got one.

[terbang]

Had a layover in NY and went and saw Ground Zero..Fuck its a sobering sight but I also saw a poignant bit of grafitti on the wall there that read WE GOT YOU NOW SADDAM YOU BASTARD that got me thinking. I am not really a fan of the way Saddam ran his country and he really is a bad one but realisticly I thought it was Bin laden that did the deed and now Saddam is taking the wrap. Looks like Geo and his cronies have done a fine job of pulling the wool over joe public yanks eyes and have gone to war in Iraq in retaliation to 911. Why is this? Because they can't catch the real bad guy so they get the next best thing? Good excuse to settle an old score from the 1st gulf war? Or is it because Binladen has no Oil and Saddam has?
As allready pointed out we in NZ are no strangers to terrorism and I still think the French are absolute pricks for their sinking of the Rainbow Warrior and I also sy full marks to Lange for nearly making a silk purse out of a sows ear.
However I, in a previous life, flew for Palestinian Airlines (yup us Kiwis do fly) and saw a side to their arguement that you won't see on CNN or BBC. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist..

[Skyryder]

and saw a side to their arguement that you won't see on CNN or BBC. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist..

The Arabs were promised Palistine by the British during the 1st world war. So too were the Zionists. In short to gain support against the Germans and their allies the Brits promised Palistine to two opposing groups then reneged on the deal and took over control themselves. They did much the same thing with the House of Saud, then backed another family I think it was the Rashide's. The Americans became involved and backed the Saudi's, hence Saudi Arabia and the Americans closest Middle Easter ally. I read some stuff on this some time ago. Been meaning to get back to the historical issues but just not had time.

For those interested

Arabia Unified M Almana 953.8 RAH

Faisal De Gaury 953.8 FAI

Desert Sheild to Desert Storm Dilip Hiro 956.743

Nine Parts of Desire Islamic woman. Geradine Brooks (recommended)

The House of Saud Aburish 953.8 ABU (recommended)

The Road to Ramadan Mohamid Heikal 962 0.5 HEI


Skyryder

[oldrider]

I humbly offer my apologies here:

I am sorry that the last seven times we Americans took up arms and sacrificed the blood of our youth, it was in the defense of Muslims (Bosnia, Kosovo, Gulf War 1, Kuwait, Beruit etc.).

I am sorry that no such call for an apology upon the extremists came after 9/11.

I am sorry that all of the murderers on 9/11 were Islamic Arabs.

I am sorry that most Arabs and Muslims have to live in squalor under savage dictatorships.

I am sorry that their leaders squander their wealth,

I am sorry that their governments breed hate for the US in their religious schools, mosques, and government-controlled media.

I am sorry that Yasir Arafat was kicked out of every Arab country and high-jacked the Palestinian "cause.

I am sorry that no other Arab country will take in or offer more than a token amount of financial help to those same Palestinians.

I am sorry that the USA has to step in and be the biggest financial supporter of poverty stricken Arabs while the insanely wealthy Arabs blame the USA for all their problems.

I am sorry that our own left wing, our media, and our own brainwashed masses do not understand any of this (from the misleading vocal elements of our society, like radical professors, CNN and the NY TIMES).

I am sorry the United Nations scammed the poor people of Iraq out of the "food for oil" money so they could get rich while the common folk suffered.

I am sorry that some Arab governments pay the families of homicide bombers upon their death.

I am sorry that those same bombers are brainwashed thinking they will receive 72 virgins in "paradise."

I am sorry that the homicide bombers think pregnant women, babies, children, the elderly and other non-combatant civilians are legitimate targets.

I am sorry that our troops die to free more Arabs from the gang rape rooms and the filling of mass graves of dissidents of their own making.

I am sorry that Muslim extremists have killed more Arabs than any other group.

I am sorry that foreign trained terrorists are trying to seize control of Iraq and return it to a terrorist state.

I am sorry we don't drop a few dozen Daisy cutters on Fallujah.

I am sorry every time terrorists hide they find a convenient "Holy Site."

I am sorry they didn't apologize for driving a jet into the World Trade Center that collapsed and severely damaged Saint Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church — one of our Holy Sites.

I am sorry they didn't apologize for flight 93 and175, the USS Cole, the embassy bombings, Beruit, the murders and beheadings of Nick Bergand, Daniel Pearl, etc...etc,



We hang out our dirty laundry for the entire world to see. We move on. That's one of the reasons we are hated so much. We don't hide this stuff like all those Arab countries that are now demanding an apology.

Deep down inside, when most Americans saw Abu Garib reported in the news, we were like—so what? We lost hundreds and made fun of a few prisoners. Sure, it was wrong! Sure, it dramatically hurts our cause, but until captured, we were trying to kill those same prisoners. Now we're supposed to wring our hands because a few were humiliated?

Our compassion is tempered with the vivid memories of our own people killed, mutilated and burned among a joyous crowd of celebrating Fallujahans.

If you want an apology from this American, you're going to have a long wait!

You have a better chance of finding those seventy-two virgins!

I'm sorry more people don't understand and appreciate these things, good post SARGE.

I'm also sorry that the stupid Frenchies didn't blow up the whole of the "modern" Greenpeace wankers as well but in their own backyard.

Can't the French ever get anything right? :spudwhat: John.

[Wolf]

STILL BITTER ABOUT THE RAINBOW WARIOUR , ALWAYS HOPE AND PRAY THAT THE NEXT BIG TERRORIST ACT IS IN FRANCE AND IS HUGE , WEATHER YOUR A TREE HUGGING HIPPY OR NOT THEY FUCKED WITH ALL OF US WHEN THEY BOMBED THAT BOAT IN "OUR" HARBOUR
With you there - they commited an act of war in our territory and blew up a boat flying the Canadian flag - an act of war against Canada.

Then, gutless fuckers the Frogs are, they disavowed all knowledge yet threatened us with trade sanctions for arresting what they claimed were "Swiss tourists".

As the Frog Govt officially disavowed knowledge of the actions of their murderers, the teams and their commanders were officially pirates - deliberately not "flying their colours" - as Sir Francis Drake was a "pirate" when he sunk Spanish ships without the "official sanction" of Elizabeth I.

As pirates, we were within our rights to summarily execute them without trial - the cops would have been legally allowed to draw a pistol and shoot them dead at the scene of the arrest.

If they did have official sanction then they were saboteurs operating covertly and commiting an act of war and so the same applies.

I would have loved it if they'd caught the Ulvea and her crew on the open seas and just blown the boat out from under 'em.

Only the frogs are so gutless they have to use a coward's weapon in the dark against a bunch of unarmed hippies - they can't even face up to unarmed opponents with "nasty loud mouths", gods help us if they ever have to stand up to an "enemy" armed with weapons.

France's response to a sudden upturn in terrorism would probably be to remove all the Gideon Bibles from their hotels and replace them with copies of the Quran and put Halal foods on the menu.

They could plant palm trees down the Champs Elysees so the terrorists will feel at home - the Wehrmacht appreciated the shady trees the French planted for 'em back in '38...

[terbang]

Those bloody frogs didnt give a shit about us when it came to test their nukes in our part of the world as well and now our National Airline is flying French aircraft..!:puke:

[Skyryder]

I'm sorry more people don't understand and appreciate these things, good post SARGE.

I'm also sorry that the stupid Frenchies didn't blow up the whole of the "modern" Greenpeace wankers as well but in their own backyard.

Can't the French ever get anything right? :spudwhat: John.

I for one do Oldrider. There is nothing wrong with Sarges sentiments. Unfortunately American Middle Eastern policy is the result of much of his post. It suited them to back Saddam when it was in their interests to do so. They gave him the green light to invade Kuwait and when the Saudi's became alarmed put together a coalition that resulted in Desert Storm. The result of that is todays debacle. I personaly have never had a problem with the invasion of Iraq.
It was never about oil as those who oppose Bush's invasion claim. It was primarily to install a freindly government with sympathies to America for intellagence gathering purposes. But Bush lost the plot. He lied about Saddam's nuclear weapons capability and in doing so America lost any credibility. Now they are talking about democracy. Another load of Bullshit from the Administration. Again America has never been to fussy about who it sleeps with. It activley supported a fascist to overthrow a democratiicly elected Government. There are some who see CIA in the downfall of Gough Whitlam.

Greenpeace. If it was not for Greenpeace I have no doubt that the French would still be contaminating our own back yard. Love them or hate them I thank God that our society allows such activity. There are many that would do as you suggest.

Skyryder

[terbang]

A couple of paralells here.

(1) Vietnam
(2) Iraq

(1) Roman Empire
(2) USA

[chris]

Having read thru' the whole shi-bang,agreeing with OldRider,this one sticks out mo' than most...
Dude, i'm concerned about you!
I will make sure that my tongue in cheek comments are more obvious next time :)

[Indiana_Jones]

Well at least some others think that the media is a left thing hunk of dribble :corn:

-Indy

[Jamezo]

He lied about Saddam's nuclear weapons capability and in doing so America lost any credibility. Now they are talking about democracy. Another load of Bullshit from the Administration. Again America has never been to fussy about who it sleeps with. It activley supported a fascist to overthrow a democratiicly elected Government.

*A* democratically elected government?

A list of democratically elected governments overthrown, not just by the US, but also other western powers, and replaced with dictatorships, would stretch for some considerable length.

Looking back through history, every single time a country has made an effort for self-determination; true democracy representing the actual interests of the bulk of the population, they have never lasted for more than a few years.

Whether by overt invasion, supported subterfuge and sponsored guerilla warfare, or assassination and subsequent military coups, Western powers have made absolutely sure that any steps towards real democracy have been met with destruction. Needless to say, this is a major factor in the number of shattered countries all around the world without responsible governments.

No, it not some inherent factor about all those "sand niggers" that prevents them from maintaining some semblance of functioning government, rather the extraordinary efforts the western powers have made during the last hundred years in propping up murderous dictatorships in these places.

[Wolf]

*A* democratically elected government?

A list of democratically elected governments overthrown, not just by the US, but also other western powers, and replaced with dictatorships, would stretch for some considerable length.

Looking back through history, every single time a country has made an effort for self-determination; true democracy representing the actual interests of the bulk of the population, they have never lasted for more than a few years.

Whether by overt invasion, supported subterfuge and sponsored guerilla warfare, or assassination and subsequent military coups, Western powers have made absolutely sure that any steps towards real democracy have been met with destruction. Needless to say, this is a major factor in the number of shattered countries all around the world without responsible governments.

No, it not some inherent factor about all those "sand niggers" that prevents them from maintaining some semblance of functioning government, rather the extraordinary efforts the western powers have made during the last hundred years in propping up murderous dictatorships in these places.

Interesting assertion. I am not doubting you as I do not know on what you base your assertion. Can you please clarify and cite instances? To what end is this being done?

[Jamezo]

Interesting assertion. I am not doubting you as I do not know on what you base your assertion. Can you please clarify and cite instances? To what end is this being done?

To cite but an extremely small few:

Nicaragua: One of the most tragic events of the 20th century. A people's revolution, led by the socialist Sandanista movement, makes enormous (really, absolutely staggering) strides in improving the lot of the population. They were setting an extremely bad example for neighbouring countries, who were beginning to develop popular-based movements of their own, in opposition to the traditional colonial puppet governments.

The US poured money into funding the fascist militia that was fighting for the expelled government. With direct US military and political support (hooray for UN veto power!!!!), they fought a bitter guerilla war, resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands of Nicaraguans. With their once promising country shattered by years of war, the time was right to install a US puppet, by means of the same democratic process that allowed the popular revolution.

The US puppet narrowly achieved victory after a campaign in which a gun was basically held to the heads of the Nicaraguans. If they refused to concede control of their country to the US candidate, the war would be continued and escalated until there was simply nothing left. This was also helped by the massive US-sponsored propaganda efforts (if I recall, over $10 USD was spent on propaganda per registered voter!), which reported this message very plainly.


Actually, I'm actually too tired to say more right now, but a quick google reveals many people have collated some exhaustive information.

http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa01.html

Here is a list of US-sponsored coups over the past imperialist period. Note that this lists only pure coups, and not the direct military invasions, guerilla campaigns, or any other vile means.


As to why, from the state-capitalist view it is pretty clear. The role of other smaller countries is to act as markets for US goods, to provide natural resources to the west, and to provide cheap labour for western firms.*

Any population-based move towards democracy is clearly against this, and thus is completely unacceptable in the eyes of said state-capital sector.

*ps. It seems that page I linked to elaborates on this further.

[Swoop]

Another thing that is not widlely known is that when the French secret service agents Alain Mafart and Dominique Prieur were being held in custody at Rolleston Prison there were serious fears that they would be 'sprung.' Lange's decision to have them serve out there time at Muriora atoll (??) was, in part, in fear of this. However the real reason for Lange's decision was that France was threating our trade within the European community. But what pisses me off more than anything else about the Rainbow Warrior bombing was that the National Party was in the throes of formulating policy that would exploit Frances threat to our trade for their own political gain.

Skyryder
Rolleston??? Nope. Ardmore military prison.
Reason why? Better area for a firefight - less "collateral damage" and all the players apart from the euroscum were familiar with the "playing field"...

[Skyryder]

Rolleston??? Nope. Ardmore military prison.
Reason why? Better area for a firefight - less "collateral damage" and all the players apart from the euroscum were familiar with the "playing field"...

Sorry my mistake. Tha atoll was not Muroa but Huo or some name very simular.

Skyryder

[Pixie]

The Arabs were promised Palistine by the British during the 1st world war. So too were the Zionists. In short to gain support against the Germans and their allies the Brits promised Palistine to two opposing groups then reneged on the deal and took over control themselves. They did much the same thing with the House of Saud, then backed another family I think it was the Rashide's. The Americans became involved and backed the Saudi's, hence Saudi Arabia and the Americans closest Middle Easter ally. I read some stuff on this some time ago. Been meaning to get back to the historical issues but just not had time.

In a recent Simpsons - "Bart to the Future"; Lisa refers to the newest US state,
Saudi Israelia

[Lou Girardin]

Try reading "Tell Me No Lies". An anthology of investigative reporting since 1963, edited by John Pilger. See if your stomache doesn't churn at the lies, disinformation, evasion practiced by supposedly open Governments.
Pay special attention to the massacres at Sabra and Chatilla refugee camps in Lebanon, one Phalangist Officer said that Palestinian women give birth to children who grow to become terrorists, that is sufficient cause to kill the all.
Then you'll realise the source of the hatred towards Israel, the US and all who help them.
Despite what George and his cronies would have you believe, terrorism from both sides isn't just 3 years old.

[Swoop]

Sorry my mistake. Tha atoll was not Muroa but Huo or some name very simular.

Skyryder

Hau Atoll.
A complete farce from the start...

[Indiana_Jones]

All this talk about smoke and mirrors, and lies. I'm just waiting for Kevin Costner to start investigating lol.

Back and to the left.....

-Indy

[Karma]

If you build it, he will come.

[Indiana_Jones]

only one man can stop Al Qaeda.......


<img src="http://www.tvshowboards.com/sci-fi/moderator/AceRimmer%20(Somebody).JPG" align="centre" vspace="10" hspace="10">


ACE RIMMER!

-Indy

[Wolf]

only one man can stop Al Qaeda.......


<img src="http://www.tvshowboards.com/sci-fi/moderator/AceRimmer%20(Somebody).JPG" align="centre" vspace="10" hspace="10">


ACE RIMMER!

-Indy
What a guy!

[pete376403]

Iran makes noises about starting up nuclear research again. Dubya and co wind up their threat level and invasion plans are well under way. North Korea claims to already have nukes and the west hardly says boo. What does Iran have that Korea doesn't?

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/010906I.shtml

[kro]

Truth has become a word no longer feared by American politics, because it plays no part in them, and the subdued masses care little for the politics, unless they are wealthy, or idealist.

The memory of the lost lives is marred by the complete and utter ineptitude of the man behind the wheel, and the lies upon lies uttered by him and his master.

These people need not have died, and do not, under any circumstances think for one minute that a hostile force is taking America. A once proud, and prosperous nation has fallen, and will not recover.

[Swoop]

What does Iran have that Korea doesn't?
An easier country to invade???:eek:

[Lou Girardin]

Truth has become a word no longer feared by American politics, because it plays no part in them, and the subdued masses care little for the politics, unless they are wealthy, or idealist.

The memory of the lost lives is marred by the complete and utter ineptitude of the man behind the wheel, and the lies upon lies uttered by him and his master.

These people need not have died, and do not, under any circumstances think for one minute that a hostile force is taking America. A once proud, and prosperous nation has fallen, and will not recover.

The are many parallels between Amerika and the Roman empire.

[Motu]

Straight roads??

[WINJA]

An easier country to invade???:eek:
ALSO THERE NOT SENDING GROUND TROOPS AS WE KNOW THEM ,GEORGE IS JUST GONNA SLAM ALL THE HUMMERS FIT 20" CHROME BLING AS SPINNERS TO THEM AND A MASSIVE MOTHER FUCKEN SOUND SYSTEM AND PUT 4 HOMMIES INSIDE WITH 9MMS AND AN INGRAM MACH10 EACH AND THEY GONNA WIN THE WAR DOING DRIVE BYS , YO YO WHAT YOU LOOKIN AT BIATCH :ar15: :ar15: :ar15: :ar15:

[Lou Girardin]

The US has just destroyed three houses in a village in northern Pakistan because 'intelligence' said that Al Hawhiri, the 2 IC of Al Quaeda, was visiting.
He wasn't, they missed again. But there's 24 civilians dead, God knows how many recruits coming up for Bin Laden and the US reinforces the worlds opinion of themselves.
They never learn.

[Grahameeboy]

The US has just destroyed three houses in a village in northern Pakistan because 'intelligence' said that Al Hawhiri, the 2 IC of Al Quaeda, was visiting.
He wasn't, they missed again. But there's 24 civilians dead, God knows how many recruits coming up for Bin Laden and the US reinforces the worlds opinion of themselves.
They never learn.

Bush is so dumb.......hasn't he cottoned on that these so called informants are working for Al Quaeda and fueling his cause.......so all Bush is doing is putting innocent people at risk and risking another 11/9.......

[Lou Girardin]

Bush is so dumb.......hasn't he cottoned on that these so called informants are working for Al Quaeda and fueling his cause.......so all Bush is doing is putting innocent people at risk and risking another 11/9.......

But it must be great playing "World Domination" and destroying people from 1000's of km away.

[Grahameeboy]

But it must be great playing "World Domination" and destroying people from 1000's of km away.

do you reckon he has the latest version of 'Risk'.......hope he hasn't added NZ to board...unlikely...

[Lou Girardin]

do you reckon he has the latest version of 'Risk'.......hope he hasn't added NZ to board...unlikely...

He can't find us.
He can't even find Old Zealand.

[Grahameeboy]

He can't find us.
He can't even find Old Zealand.

I reckon...........probably gets lost going home.........."now where is that big white building? It is around here somewhere?".......

[Sniper]

Bush is just trying to please his daddy.

[Grahameeboy]

Bush is just trying to please his daddy.

don't you just hate 'Juniors'.......

[Lou Girardin]

Bush is just trying to please his daddy.

No, he's trying to show Mom that he's a better man than Daddy.

[Grahameeboy]

No, he's trying to show Mom that he's a better man than Daddy.

Geeze, I didn't know his Mum was out of the institution yet!!!

[Wolf]

No, he's trying to show Mom that he's a better man than Daddy.
Now that sounds rather Oedipal...

:devil2:

[DMNTD]

But it must be great playing "World Domination" and destroying people from 1000's of km away.
...but also has plans on his "own" people...geeezus this guy is nuts:eek5:

"By Doug Thompson
Publisher, Capitol Hill Blue
1-14-6

President George W. Bush has signed executive orders giving him sole authority to impose martial law, suspend habeas corpus and ignore the Posse Comitatus Act that prohibits deployment of U.S. troops on American streets. This would give him absolute dictatorial power over the government with no checks and balances.

Bush discussed imposing martial law on American streets in the aftermath of the 9/11 terrorist attacks by activating "national security initiatives" put in place by Ronald Reagan during the 1980s.

These "national security initiatives," hatched in 1982 by controversial Marine Colonel Oliver North, later one of the key players in the Iran-Contra Scandal, charged the Federal Emergency Management Agency with administering executive orders that allowed suspension of the Constitution, implementation of martial law, establishment of internment camps, and the turning the government over to the President.

John Brinkerhoff, deputy director of FEMA, developed the martial law implementation plan, following a template originally developed by former FEMA director Louis Guiffrida to battle a "national uprising of black militants." Gifuffrida's implementation of martial law called for jailing at least 21 million African Americans in "relocation camps."Â Brinkerhoff later admitted in an interview with the Miami Herald that President Reagan signed off on the initiatives and they remained in place, dormant, until George W. Bush took office.

Brinkerhoff moved on the Anser Institute for Homeland Security and, following the 9/11 terrorist attacks, provided the Bush White House and the Pentagon with talking points supporting revised "national security initiatives" that would could allow imposition of martial law and suspension of the Posse Comitatus Act of 1978, the law that is supposed to forbid use of troops for domestic law enforcement.

Brinkerhoff wrote that intentions of Posse Comitatus are "misunderstood and misapplied" and that the U.S. has in times of national emergency the "full and absolute authority" to send troops into American streets to "enforce order and maintain the peace."

Bush used parts of the plan to send troops into the streets of New Orleans following Hurricane Katrina. In addition, FEMA hired former special forces personnel from the mercenary firm Blackwater USA to "enforce security."

Blackwater USA, in its promotional materials, describes itself as "the most comprehensive professional military, law enforcement, security, peacekeeping, and stability operations company in the world," adding that "we have established a global presence and provide training and operational solutions for the 21st century in support of security and peace, and freedom and democracy everywhere."

Blackwater is also a major U.S. contractor in Iraq and has a contract with the Bush White House to provide additional security work "on an as-needed basis."

The Department of Homeland Security established the "Northern Command for National Defense," a wide-ranging program that includes FEMA, the Pentagon, the FBI and the National Security Agency. Executive orders already signed by Bush allow the Northern Command to send troops into American streets, seize control of radio and television stations and networks and impose martial law "in times of national emergency."

The authority to declare what is or is not a national emergency rests entirely with Bush who does not have to either consult or seek the approval of Congress for permission to assume absolute control over the government of the United States.

The White House press office would neither confirm nor deny existence of Bush's executive orders or the existence of the Northern Command for National Defense. Neither would the Department of Homeland Security.

But my sources within the White House and DHS tell me the plans are in place, ready for implementation when the command comes from the man who keeps telling the American public that he is a "war time president" who will "do anything in my power" to impose his will on the people of the United States.

And he has made sure that power will be absolute when he chooses to use it."

[Grahameeboy]

Now that sounds rather Oedipal...

:devil2:

Can you enlighten us Mr Wolf

oed·i·pal also Oed·i·pal (d-pl, d-)
adj.
Of, relating to, or characteristic of the Oedipus complex: oedipal conflicts.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------:scratch:

[Grahameeboy]

[QUOTE=TL Rider][B]...but also has plans on his "own" people...geeezus this guy is nuts:eek5:

"[COLOR="Navy"]By Doug Thompson
Publisher, Capitol Hill Blue
1-14-6

Yeah you kinda wonder whether they put the right ones in the 'Nut House' eh .....it is probably a safer place.......

[Wolf]

Can you enlighten us Mr Wolf

oed·i·pal also Oed·i·pal (d-pl, d-)
adj.
Of, relating to, or characteristic of the Oedipus complex: oedipal conflicts.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------:scratch:
I was just wondering about GW's attempts to prove to his mum that he was a better "man" than his daddy and relating them to Oedipus's desires for a bit of "son on mum" action...

[terbang]

I was just wondering about GW's attempts to prove to his mum that he was a better "man" than his daddy and relating them to Oedipus's desires for a bit of "son on mum" action...

Lotsa flash words there Wolf do you mean George should be called a "Goddam Muthafucker" ?

[Indiana_Jones]

I thought this thread might have conflicting view points, but it's just a Bush slag-a-thong lol

-Indy

[Wolf]

Lotsa flash words there Wolf do you mean George should be called a "Goddam Muthafucker" ?
According to my interpretation of Lou's assessment, GW's at least hopeful...

[Swoop]

"slag-a-thong"

Hmmm, I think I dated someone like that once...:woohoo:

[SARGE]

e Americans knew of the impending French terrorist atack on the Rainbow Warrior. But being the good freind that they were to New Zealand they forgot to tell us.

Skyryder


we didnt think you'd miss a few hippies.

hindsight is 20/20

[Indiana_Jones]

lol if green peace is dumb enough to get in the way of people long they have to expect a reaction, maybe the french over reacted, but the hippies had to expect one

-Indy

[James Deuce]

Yes they did have to expect a reaction - in French territory. Doing it in Auckland Harbour was just terrorism at a Government level.

[Indiana_Jones]

Yes they did have to expect a reaction - in French territory. Doing it in Auckland Harbour was just terrorism at a Government level.

hmmmmmmm maybe they should of waited till they were in international waters, anythings legal then lol

-Indy

[James Deuce]

Yes, talk like a pirate and you get away with anything in International waters.

Getting faintly back on the original topic, does anyone else think it odd that the French Government didn't immediately sacrifice a senior Civil Servant or Politician's career in return for Dominique Prieur and Alain Marfart? SArge will know what I mean. You do NOT sacrifice your covert ops specialists like that because you can't admit you fucked up at a Government level. That bit was almost as bad as the sinking itself.

"Zut Alors, we are busted mes amis! Quick, deny everything and make the troops on the ground look stupid, even though they did their job perfectly. What do you mean zis David Lange is not giving in to our demands. Did he not notice ze sinking ship in his main harbour - what? - You won't let me sink any MORE ships in zis tinpot country? In zat case we must smother ze evidence in garlic and eat it. Oh and someone get Dominique pregnant so ze stupid Kiwi's feel sorry for her and let her go home."

Bastards.

Deluded jerks in that particular French Government

[Indiana_Jones]

Our current labour Government is the real enemy.

-Indy

[Swoop]

hmmmmmmm maybe they should of waited till they were in international waters, anythings legal then lol

-Indy
I believe that this was the original plan... Someone fuc*ed up somewhere along the line.
Knowing the french, there would have been an act of cowardice committed at some stage...

[Indiana_Jones]

Can't we just get along?


<img src="http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1810000/images/_1812944_carnibinladen150.jpg" align="centre" vspace="10" hspace="10">

LOVE LIFT US UP WHERE WE BELONG!

-Indy

[Wolf]

hmmmmmmm maybe they should of waited till they were in international waters, anythings legal then lol

-Indy
IANAL but as far as I can recall about International Law, a ship is a little chunk of the country whose flag it flies. The Rainbow Warrior was lying the Canadian flag and was therefore a little chunk of Canada floating in our waters. An attack on that ship in International Waters is an attack on the country - an act of war (if the attackers are flying their own country's colours) answerable by retaliatory attacks on France by Canada or of piracy (if the attackers are flying no colours or false colours) answerable by the immediate execution of the perpetrators if caught. AFAIK, International Law permits the carrying of weapons on craft on the high seas and permits the officers of said craft to kill anyone who attempts to board by force.

The French have had a long history of attacking the Greenpeace boats in International Waters with military ships, aided and abetted by British and American warships (a bit of military support in exchange for scientific data because both the poms and the yanks had signed accords with the Russians saying they wouldn't test nukes so they let the French do it and reaped the data) - acts of out-and-out war against whatever countries were represented by the Greenpeace boats.

What they did in our waters, however, was covert and they weren't "flying colours" so they were pirates or terrorists depending on how you want to spin it - deserving of execution in either case.

Old Sir Francis Drake used to strike the flag before he attacked Spanish ships so Elizabeth the First had what the Americans call "plausible deniablity". Elizabeth was not prepared to go into out-and-out war with Spain so Drake used to hammer the Spaniards (and bring their gold home to the Queen) unofficially. If Drake had been caught, he would have been hanged as a pirate - they thought it better to risk that than open war.

[Indiana_Jones]

Shiver me timbers!
But they can't catch Cpt. Jack Sparrow!

-Indy

[SARGE]

tonight (11 Sept)on Discovery.. 11:30.. if you really want good quality conspiracy theory entertainment .. please watch Loose Change 2nd edition .. or if you cant stay up that late .. it is on Google Video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7218920724339766288)..

then go HERE (http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html) for the de-bunking..

i have watched both first and second editions and they are an insult to everyone who died 5 years ago..

For example, I believe that there is a small, reptile-like creature called Chupacabra that sucks the blood of goats in Mexico.

Area 51? Hell yes.

Roswell? Hell Yes

Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster .. ? ditto

But "Loose Change" elevates bullshit to an art form. Watching this video is like being smacked with a fistfull of stupid.

the fact that Dylan Avery, his friends, and family are alive, is proof that "Loose Change" is bullshit. He, along with a couple of his friends, created a 9/11 conspiracy video claiming that the US government and the military caused 9/11.

Take a closer look at the last part of that last sentence.... he's claiming that the US government, for whatever reason, killed nearly 3,000 innocent Americans, and tens if not hundreds of thousands of more lives in the conflicts that followed because of it.

Since Dylan's arguing that the government has no problem killing 3,000 innocent people, this raises the question: if his documentary is true, and we've established that the government has no ethical problems about killing thousands of its own people, then why wouldn't the government kill this douchebag and his friends as well? What's a few more lives to them to ensure the success of this conspiracy?

Whatever reason it may be that the government supposedly orchestrated this conspiracy, it must have been worth it to them to cause so much suffering and loss of life. So if there's any truth to this, then you can bet your ass that the government wouldn't let a couple of pencil-neck dickheads with a couple of Macs and too much time on their hands jeopardise their entire operation by letting this stupid video float around on the Internet.

and Discovery WOULD NOT BE BROADCASTING IT!.. this is Pro Wrestling of the conspiracy world..

I can picture the Hippy morons posting now:

"BUT SARGE, MAYBE DYLAN POSTED IT ON THE INTERNET BEFORE THE GOVERNMENT HAD A CHANCE TO REMOVE IT!."

Yeah, too bad this rebuttal is inconsistent with the premise of Dylan's shit-festival of a movie: that the WTC was brought down "in a carefully planned and controlled demolition ... and it was pulled off with military precision."

Now we're expected to believe that the same government that was able to commit the largest terrorist operation in history...with military precision no less...is suddenly too incompetent to sniff out and shut down a little website set up by some tech-school losers within days, if not minutes of its creation?

The US government has the capability to monitor every electronic communication made anywhere in the world, yet we're expected to believe that they wouldn't be able to 86 this kid long before his video ever became popular?

anyone got a Tui?

[WINJA]

And Dont Forget The Rainbow Warrior

[SARGE]

And Dont Forget The Rainbow Warrior

that was a conspiracy Jeff.. Nandor and his greenie hippy mates pulled that one off for the publicity

[Ixion]

:oi-grr:Where do the Communists fit into all this. We're feeling left out and surplus to requirements.

How do you know it wasn't a COMMUNIST plot? To destabilise both the USA (for obvious reasons) AND the Islamic front - as payback for Afganistan, and to facilitate a Communist takeover in Israel? AND to divert US support for Cheznan rebels (who are Moslem of course) . By playing off the US and the Moslems against each other.

See. It's the COMMIES.Stick with the good old well tried conspiracy theorys, I say. If it was good enough for Joe McCarthy, it's good enough for us.

[SARGE]

:oi-grr:Where do the Communists fit into all this. We're feeling left out and surplus to requirements.

How do you know it wasn't a COMMUNIST plot? To destabilise both the USA (for obvious reasons) AND the Islamic front - as payback for Afganistan, and to facilitate a Communist takeover in Israel? AND to divert US support for Cheznan rebels (who are Moslem of course) . By playing off the US and the Moslems against each other.

See. It's the COMMIES.Stick with the good old well tried conspiracy theorys, I say. If it was good enough for Joe McCarthy, it's good enough for us.


right .. i'll look into that ..

[98tls]

The US government has the capability to monitor every electronic communication made anywhere in the world, yet we're expected to believe that they wouldn't be able to 86 this kid long before his video ever became popular?

anyone got a Tui? Xactly sarge....nail on the head....cant believe so many people can watch that shit and be sucked in by it...mind you i was pretty sceptical about the green party votes as well.....Nandor must have been counting after some pretty good shit....

[Ixion]

right .. i'll look into that ..

Thank you. Was a time, a famer in Podunk, Idaho had a cow go lame and next day it'd be national news that the Commies had a new conspiracy to sabotage US farming . Nowdays, whole countries get toasted, and no-one so much as hints that its a Commie plot. It's humiliating, that's what it is.

[gijoe1313]

Hey Sarge, know this is an emotional time for you - can't say much since so many have said/expressed my feelings/opinions already. Just wanted you to know that its good to know that many people still remember that the cost of freedom is eternal vigilance.

Guys like you still hold to that and are willing to prove it to keep the rest of us safe despite politics, public bias and personal agendas aren't common.

I got up early for some reason on this day, years ago and turned on the TV for no apparant reason. Turns out the reason was more hideous and apparant then I ever knew.

Peace out.

[slowpoke]

Just wanted you to know that its good to know that many people still remember that the cost of freedom is eternal vigilance.

Guys like you still hold to that and are willing to prove it to keep the rest of us safe despite politics, public bias and personal agendas aren't common.



Conversely: the cost of eternal vigilance is freedom.

Eternal vigilance would have seen that the past 50 years of US foreign policy has caused untold damage and dissent in countries around the globe. The realisation should have followed that sooner or later someone is going to get sick of the school yard bully and kick him where it hurts the most.

No offence to Sarge, who's patriotism is admirable, but the armed forces do as they are told, when they are told, where they are told to do it. Unfortunately they are told these things by POLITICIANS, so "politics, public bias and personal agendas" are key elements of the decision making process.

[Wolf]

many people still remember that the cost of freedom is eternal vigilance.
Yep, the citizens of the US are free to have their phones tapped, all electronic communications scanned and be arrested on suspicion of terrorist actvities or sympathies - sounds like the good ol' days of Sen. Joe McCarthy with a lot more technology.

I invoke "Niven's Law" - F*S=k - "the product of Freedom and Security is a constant" - increase one, decrease the other. The US populace is "secure", not "free".

Sorry, Ixion, your commies have been supplanted by the new menace - "terrorism"...

..The corrupt, power-hungry politicians who leap at the chance to enslave their own people are still very much in evidence, however.

Screw the "the US-gov did it to assert control and introduce the measure against their own population" conspiracy theories - the "terrorists" did it, all right. But the US govt was quick and keen to turn it to their advantage. The dust hadn't settled from the Twin Towers and the Bush Administration was already mooting measures that became the "Patriot Act". This is why I will always inherently mistrust politicians.

And unfortunately, as has often been observed, they are the ones who control the military forces. The Military is nothing more than a tool for corrupt politicians - the brave led by the cowards.

Don't believe me? What ever happened to "it is a soldier's moral obligation to disobey an illegal order"? A couple of Brit soldiers tried that in the Iraq war and were tried and condemned as "traitors". Bush and his bum-chums make the rules and issue the orders, the military obeys or faces the consequences.

I feel sorry for my friends in the USA, I'd hate to live in a country whose politicians are hell-bent on proving George Orwell to be unimaginative...

[Finn]

:oi-grr:Where do the Communists fit into all this. We're feeling left out and surplus to requirements.


I'll tell you. You're quietly building a super economy in the back ground while the US diverts its attention and the rest of us are trying to save the planet. Soon, you will own the world.

[SARGE]

I got up early for some reason on this day, years ago and turned on the TV for no apparant reason. Turns out the reason was more hideous and apparant then I ever knew.

Peace out.

you'd be suprised at how many people say the exact same thing ..

[Wolf]

I'll tell you. You're quietly building a super economy in the back ground while the US diverts its attention and the rest of us are trying to save the planet. Soon, you will own the world.
Cunning plan. Damned sneaky, these commies.

But it's good to know there'll be someone to turn to when the USA goes "belly-up" due to its own convoluted, energy intensive "Big Brother" Regime...

[SARGE]

Cunning plan. Damned sneaky, these commies.

But it's good to know there'll be someone to turn to when the USA goes "belly-up" due to its own convoluted, energy intensive "Big Brother" Regime...



dont you worry big guy...

im all set up to take over when that happens ...

first thing i do is outlaw organized religion..

my plan gets ugly from there ....

[Wolf]

first thing i do is outlaw organized religion..

my plan gets ugly from there ....
And after such a positive start, too...

:devil2:

[Karma]

my plan gets ugly from there ....


They put you on TV? :dodge:

[SARGE]

And after such a positive start, too...

:devil2:

well.. ok... i'll clue you in on a few of the finer points ..


rap music is punishable by death.. techno and house are life terms ..country music and pop fans will be committed to an asylum for life .

reality TV will likewise be outlawed ( except for the American Hot Rod/ Chopper car building shows ..) ( see Rap Music laws for Pimp My Ride et al)

there will be a bounty on Boi Racers of $10 to encourage redemption in bulk quantities..V8 Muscle Cars and exotic Supercars are exempt from all laws pertaining to cars in general..


those are a few of the finer points ... you dont want to know about my foreign policy or military doctrine



They put you on TV? :dodge:



that goes without saying ..

[Wolf]

well.. ok... i'll clue you in on a few of the finer points ..


rap music is punishable by death.. techno and house are life terms ..country music and pop fans will be committed to an asylum for life .

reality TV will likewise be outlawed ( except for the American Hot Rod/ Chopper car building shows ..) ( see Rap Music laws for Pimp My Ride et al)

there will be a bounty on Boi Racers of $10 to encourage redemption in bulk quantities..V8 Muscle Cars and exotic Supercars are exempt from all laws pertaining to cars in general..
Still sounding good so far...

Until the threat of you appearing on TV, then it started to get nasty...

[SARGE]

Still sounding good so far...

Until the threat of you appearing on TV, then it started to get nasty...

dont worry .. i'll be back lit for effect ..

seriously though..

5 years ago.. politics aside.. think of the nearly 3000 people who died in this cowardly attack..think of the anguish of the families who loved ones remains have never been found.. the first responders are true heros.. running into the towers knowing that they may not make it back out ..THAT my friends is the TRUE America.. not the bullshit sound bites .. not the partisainship ..

i dont like Bush personally.. i DO have to throw my support behind him however.. i wish he would take the kid gloves off however and bring the noise

today is Patriot Day in the US.. i am flying the Stars n Bars outside Camp Sarge and will be all week..even though i am getting the old " hairy-eye" from the lovely Muslim next door neighbors..

bring it .

[Wolf]

5 years ago.. politics aside.. think of the nearly 3000 people who died in this cowardly attack..think of the anguish of the families who loved ones remains have never been found.. the first responders are true heros.. running into the towers knowing that they may not make it back out ..THAT my friends is the TRUE America.. not the bullshit sound bites .. not the partisainship .
True heroes, to me, include the passengers on the third plane who realised they were already dead and decided to make their deaths mean something by foiling the attack. To act knowing that even if you succeed, you're not going to survive - that's heroism. Even more so if those doing it are not soldiers.

Soldiers are paid to do that - they can be ordered to lay down their lives in effectively a suicide mission. The passengers were not soldiers, they were average citizens, but they still acted. No one ordered them to, they each chose the path of the hero.

I still get tears in my eyes whenever I think of them.

[kickingzebra]

Running the flag is all good, but doesn't the rvr detract somewhat from the Team America, Fuck yeah image?
Quickly, go buy a decent yank tank, I'll chick in 5 bucks for purchase and 20 for gas :)

I was one of the early wakers as well. Was truely bizarre, people going about their daily business, and then some whackjobs decide to kill them, with no intention, no state of war, nothing. Just out of the blue.
Cowardice, rewardable in some worldviews, but detestable to humanity.

[SARGE]

True heroes, to me, include the passengers on the third plane who realised they were already dead and decided to make their deaths mean something by foiling the attack. To act knowing that even if you succeed, you're not going to survive - that's heroism. Even more so if those doing it are not soldiers.

Soldiers are paid to do that - they can be ordered to lay down their lives in effectively a suicide mission. The passengers were not soldiers, they were average citizens, but they still acted. No one ordered them to, they each chose the path of the hero.

I still get tears in my eyes whenever I think of them.

very true man .. i watched the Flight that fought back on Discovery last night ..those folks decided to go out on their feet like lions rather than die like sheep..

i cant say i would have done any less personally..

in the original post i was referring to the firefighters and police who went into the towers though.. those guys have a special place in heaven as far as im concerned..



Running the flag is all good, but doesn't the rvr detract somewhat from the Team America, Fuck yeah image?
Quickly, go buy a decent yank tank, I'll chick in 5 bucks for purchase and 20 for gas :)

I was one of the early wakers as well. Was truely bizarre, people going about their daily business, and then some whackjobs decide to kill them, with no intention, no state of war, nothing. Just out of the blue.
Cowardice, rewardable in some worldviews, but detestable to humanity.

the RVR is a grocery getter/ surfboard transporter..i plan on bringing my Mustang down next year for the odd Saturday night cruise / blast down Champion Dragway..

the FJ is the primary mode of transportation..i'd ride a Harley or a Buell if there was one straight section of road in the Auckland area ..

[Virago]

.......I got up early for some reason on this day, years ago and turned on the TV for no apparant reason......

It was a little amusing listening to the twats on the radio this morning, talking about "5 years ago today", and talking of how they woke to the news, exactly 5 years ago.

Is it worth pointing out that the events happened on Sept 12 by our calendar? You're a day early guys.......:yes:

[SARGE]

It was a little amusing listening to the twats on the radio this morning, talking about "5 years ago today", and talking of how they woke to the news, exactly 5 years ago.

Is it worth pointing out that the events happened on Sept 12 by our calendar? You're a day early guys.......:yes:

im still on US Eastern Standard Time..

[Sniper]

A date is a date to me. Regardless on time zones.

[SARGE]

A date is a date to me. Regardless on time zones.

this whole week .. im gonna be a grumpy bastard anyway..

might go have a sit down on Stoddard road tonight....

[Wolf]

It was a little amusing listening to the twats on the radio this morning, talking about "5 years ago today", and talking of how they woke to the news, exactly 5 years ago.
Give them a break, they're radio DJs - they can't be expected to think...

[Sniper]

this whole week .. im gonna be a grumpy bastard anyway..
Dont blame ya. Im like that when people talk about x years since Mandela changed the govt for good ect, or when the Kiwi's play rugby against SA and expect me to be interested.


might go have a sit down on Stoddard road tonight....

Not familiar with the area, but I take it you are not doing it for shits and giggles?