OK. I call bullshit on the AA

[Ixion]

The AA claimed today that motorcycles are 80 times as dangerous as cars (see the other threads on this for details)

So I've done some checking. Using the figures from the AA's own website.

And here they are:

No of licensed motorcyclists in 2002 (latest year I can find) = 473194
No of licensed car drivers in 2002 ( " " " " ) = 2638989

(there will be an overlap, some people have both)

No of motorcycle fatalities (rider and passenger) in 2002 = 30
No of car fatalities ( " " " ) in 2002 = 316

Motorcycle fatalities per motorcyclist = 1 in (473194 / 30 ) = 1 in 15773
Car fatalities per motorist = 1 in (2638989 / 316) = 1 in 8351

In other words the fatality rate of car drivers was TWICE that of motorcyclists. Motorcycles are by this measure TWICE AS SAFE AS CARS

So where did this bullshit "80 times " come from.

I will be ringing the AA tomorrow , and the Herald, and demanding a retraction. Does anyone know a contact at either ?

(Yes, I am aware that the figure of licensed motorcyclists includes some who don't ride. But licensed car drivers also includes some who don't drive. and motorcyclists would have higher annual milages than many car drivers. I'll argue that fatalities per license holder is as fair a measure as any)

Sources : Fatality rates Here (http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/research/fatal5yr.html)
No of license holders Here (http://www.aa.co.nz/Section?Action=View&Section_id=284)

[Ixion]

UPDATE:

Found a contact at AA

George Fairbairn
Director Public Affairs
New Zealand Automobile Association
T. +64 4 931 9984
M. +64 21 279 5249
E. gfairbairn@aa.co.nz

Media Contact For:

* Enforcement
* Petrol prices
* Speed limits
* Traffic law


And

Greg Hunting
General Manager Corporate Communications
New Zealand Automobile Association
T. +64 9 966 8949
M. +64 21 755 907
E. ghunting@aa.co.nz

Media Contact For:

* AA Membership
* AA Rewards
* AA Roadservice and AA Roadwatch
* Annual Conference
* Corporate issues
* Driver Training
* Driver and Vehicle licensing
* Financial Services
* General AA issues
* Governance
* International Relations
* Safer Roads Programme

if anyone else want to haul them over the coals also.

[Big Dave]

go scoop!!!

[XP@]

Good work!

Depends what you base the calculation on.
If you used number of accidents per km driven / ridden then the number would be different.
You would also need to take in to account Injuries v's deaths then apart from the numbers, the severity possibly measured by $ cost of recovery.
You may also base it on a controlled impact at a set speed in car and on bike, taking the measure of damage as the factor.

What ever answer you end up with it will be flawed. But the AA's statement is shocking!

I was in the welly AA office earlier in the week and there were about 10 in the office waiting to be served. 3 of these were learner riders who had just passed or were taking their tests!

[Ixion]

Good work!

Depends what you base the calculation on.
If you used number of accidents per km driven / ridden then the number would be different.
You would also need to take in to account Injuries v's deaths then apart from the numbers, the severity possibly measured by $ cost of recovery.
You may also base it on a controlled impact at a set speed in car and on bike, taking the measure of damage as the factor.

What ever answer you end up with it will be flawed. But the AA's statement is shocking!

I was in the welly AA office earlier in the week and there were about 10 in the office waiting to be served. 3 of these were learner riders who had just passed or were taking their tests!


You can prove anything with statistics!.

But I'd argue license holders vs fatality is a good meaure because the numbers are extremely robust. Things like km driven; cost of recovery etc are all vague, and often no more than estimates . And open still further doors for vagueness (km driven : but where and at what speed and in what conditions ).

But the number of licensed motorcylists is a definate number. No guesswork , no argument possible. Ditto the number of fatalities.

And if the "slant" happens to fall our way - well so be it :devil2:

[avgas]

does this mean a knife is 15000 times more dangerous as a fork? I mean you dont hear about many death by forks do you?
I say we ban all knifes, scissors......infact anything with a sharp edge.
Also we always hear about toddlers putting things in their mouths, so lets ban anything smaller then a toddlers fist.
ban anything that can have a dangeous velocity
ban anything that can blind
ban anything that can cause harm

[Dafe]

When you gonna hang them out to dry?

Can't wait to hear the replies!

[placidfemme]

UPDATE:

Found a contact at AA

George Fairbairn
Director Public Affairs
New Zealand Automobile Association
T. +64 4 931 9984
M. +64 21 279 5249
E. gfairbairn@aa.co.nz

Media Contact For:

* Enforcement
* Petrol prices
* Speed limits
* Traffic law


And

Greg Hunting
General Manager Corporate Communications
New Zealand Automobile Association
T. +64 9 966 8949
M. +64 21 755 907
E. ghunting@aa.co.nz

Media Contact For:

* AA Membership
* AA Rewards
* AA Roadservice and AA Roadwatch
* Annual Conference
* Corporate issues
* Driver Training
* Driver and Vehicle licensing
* Financial Services
* General AA issues
* Governance
* International Relations
* Safer Roads Programme

if anyone else want to haul them over the coals also.

you rock... stick it to them hard!

[SPORK]

you rock... stick it to them hard!
Yep, what she said. Murder them! (With statistics)

[Sniper]

Go for it Ixion

[Beemer]

I like your way of thinking, Ixion - good luck!

Unfortunately statistics tend to be warped - in other words, used to make the point the writer wants. Give two people with different viewpoints the same set of statistics and they will each come up with convincing arguments for their viewpoint.

I still think bike RIDERS are probably safer than car DRIVERS because most of us are more alert. Factor in the near misses and we're probably doing even better!

[curious george]

Clever boy ixion, stick it to them!

[crshbndct]

go ixion
post all emails here

[Postie]

The AA claimed today that motorcycles are 80 times as dangerous as cars

its good to see you have put in the time to check up and look into some other stats, just a point though. The AA said that motorbikes are 80 more dangerous, not that they cause 80 times more fatalities, they were taking it to account injurys as well. I'm not supporting the AA, just wanted to point that out, as thats what the AA are gonna come back with.

that being said, give em hell :devil2:

[Groins_NZ]

Good on ya mate!

[scumdog]

Good on you!!
Plus point out the liklihood of a motorcyclist killing three of his passenger and self in a crash....
And two cars can have a head-on, injuring eight people but only two lots of ACC levy have been paid (assuming both cars are registeres) -Yet we pay more in our ACC levy when in a worse-case scenario we could have two bikes colliding and four injured people???

[Lou Girardin]

its good to see you have put in the time to check up and look into some other stats, just a point though. The AA said that motorbikes are 80 more dangerous, not that they cause 80 times more fatalities, they were taking it to account injurys as well. I'm not supporting the AA, just wanted to point that out, as thats what the AA are gonna come back with.

that being said, give em hell :devil2:

They didn't say either. They said more dangerous, which is meaningless.

[**R1**]

Nice 1, fucken them up with there own stats.....I like it...

[WRT]

Just remember, there are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Well, that and 76.5% of all statistics are made up. ;) And I think that comes with a margin of error of +/- 78%.

ANYWAY . . . Give 'em heaps . . . if we need to do another letter/email campaign to drive (err, ride) this home, then sing out!

[Lou Girardin]

Those AA members here should be speaking to the AA now. (or have they?)

[SuperDave]

Ixion Ixion Ixion! :sherlock: Good Work :clap: would love to hear what they have to say in response.

[zadok]

The AA claimed today that motorcycles are 80 times as dangerous as cars (see the other threads on this for details)
Wot a cheek! Even without giving it a lot of thought, it sounds like an outrageous claim.

[Wolf]

Wot a cheek! Even without giving it a lot of thought, it sounds like an outrageous claim.
It's what we who have studied statistics call a "WAG" - Wild-Arsed Guess - just pick a number at random and use it.

An interesting statistic is that 94% of people would choose a more realistic sounding figure than 80. :devil2:

[zadok]

An interesting statistic is that 94% of people would choose a more realistic sounding figure than 80. :devil2:
I think 99.9% of K.B's would agree.

[DemonWolf]

Well as a AA member.. I've sent a email to ghunting@aa.co.nz with my concerns over the "80 times...'blah" comment.

Will be interesting to see if I get a response.

[Sniper]

You won't. AA head office are a bunch of Wankers!! Often they find the need to "lose" or membership with them. How do you "lose" a $300000 membership when we need you to help us out? You never lose it when you want payement. Arsebeggers!

[chickenfunkstar]

Good onya Ixion, nice findings.

As other people have said however, observational sutdies in statistics can show pretty much what you want them to show. It would be impossible to get accurate findings in a study like this as you'd never be able to control all the variables anyway.
Give me some accident data and i'm pretty sure I could 'prove' that having a moustache made you a safer driver / rider.

[scumdog]

Good onya Ixion, nice findings.

Give me some accident data and i'm pretty sure I could 'prove' that having a moustache made you a safer driver / rider.

I have and it does.... :rofl: :rofl: :whistle:

[**R1**]

I have and it does.... :rofl: :rofl: :whistle:It wouldnt have anything to do with driving/riding around on/in tanks?:rofl:

[SixPackBack]

Have forwarded an e-mail this morning explaining my disgust and asking for either public explanation or a retraction

[chickenfunkstar]

I have and it does.... :rofl: :rofl: :whistle:

Just as I suspected then.
I'll have to stop shaving for a while.

[Wolf]

Just as I suspected then.
I'll have to stop shaving for a while.
Wait'll you get as hairy as I am - you start having anti-accidents (when you go out for a ride and come back in better shape than when you left)

[Ixion]

UPDATE:

Spoke by phone to Greg Hunting

"We were misquoted . We were misquoted"

He claims the 80 times figure "came from some paper at a conference". he is trying to find what paper ! (Talk about verifying your fatcs).

Doesn't know if the figures even relate to NZ !

Put him on the spot whether he will contact the Harold to seek a retraction/correction " Yes, I'm getting stuff together for that". He claims he is trying to find what the AA spokesperson (not him) actually said. Seems they have no idea !

He claims that what they were TRYING to say was that it was unwise for car drivers to just jump on a two-wheeler, relying on their car license (ie the moped thing again) .

I think he is in no doubt that he has stirred up a hornet's nest.

Onward now to the Harold

[DemonWolf]

Sweet... We'll see if anything actually comes out of this... I really hope it does..

Good work Ixion!

[XP@]

....
He claims that what they were TRYING to say was that it was unwise for car drivers to just jump on a two-wheeler, relying on their car license (ie the moped thing again) .

I think he is in no doubt that he has stirred up a hornet's nest.

Ah well... maybe they should put together a "Getting on to M/C's" campaign aimed at car drivers... now would be a REALLY good time to do it!

Hopefully there will be enough of a reaction that something like that can be done.... my email to him was a little critical of their views :wait:

[HenryDorsetCase]

I told the AA to get fucked when they supported the introduction of hidden speed cameras. It doesnt surprise me they are lying bastards.

Problem is they have a well oiled machine for getting their message out there, and a news media only too willing to take their message on board, and who are too lazy to question their statistics.

Give em hell, but dont be surprised to receive a polite PFO.*

[oldrider]

Good thread ixion, when challenged, the AA in their biased way rely upon the adage:

"WE WITHDRAW THE REMARK YOUR HONOUR" but the stain remains.

Unaffected ignorant people are then tricked into believing a desired false notion.

We are all currently being bombarded by political equivalence of this AA style bullshit, every day. It's intended for the persuasion of the gullible masses.

The political fervor will calm soon but the AA will continue to try and attack us every day. Bastards. Stick it to them ixion.

With you, John. :hitcher: :clap:

[Wolf]

Give em hell, but dont be surprised to receive a polite PFO.*
If you do, give them a not-so-polite FU2

[Ixion]

Good thread ixion, when challenged, the AA in their biased way rely upon the adage:

"WE WITHDRAW THE REMARK YOUR HONOUR" but the stain remains.

Unaffected ignorant people are then tricked into believing a desired false notion.

..

This is what really pisses me off about it. Most of us have had problems at one time or other with wives, husbands, SOs etc being opposed to our riding because of the "danger".

This sort of crap just reinforces that worry .

And how many potential young riders will never get started because their parents see that "80 times as dangerous" and say "No way are you ever getting a motorcycle"

And to my mind, making such an extreme claim shows that it was deliberately done to bag motorcycling.

If they had said "the risk of injury on motorcycles is much greater [ or several times , or something] than cars" then I'd have had no issue. We all know that

But claiming 80 times moves it from a genuine good faith warning into a deliberate attack.

(Mr Hunting claims he will send me the paper it was based on when he finds it. Also points that that it related to large motorcycles. Which as I pointed out to him makes it worse since the article was about commuting. Why tell people they shouldn't buy a scooter because superbikes have a high injury rate. )

UPDATE : Contacted the Harold, threatened the Press Council (may still do that) waiting for the Chief Reporter to call me back.

[Big Dave]

MacKay said when I reported all this, something along the lines of
'they should of had someone from the importers assoc or BRONZ etc's views in the article as well, rather than just the one side of the arguement.'

[Hitcher]

The Harald's editor is Tim Murphy: tim.murphy@nzherald.co.nz

Make sure you note that what you have sent is a letter intended for publication.

And George Fairbairn has left the AA. Go for Greg Hunting instead.

[MD]

Well done Xion.
I just emailed this to G Hunting at AA and have written to the Dompost.

As a long standing AA member (card No...plus my wife) who drive cars AND motorcycles I wish to voice my disapproval of recent radio news and Herald comments by the AA discouraging car drivers from switching to commuting by motorbike/scooters because of safety.
This is flawed logic.
Less cars on the roads means less danger to riders - its the cars we tend to hit or more commonly they hit us. A drift from cars to scooters/bikes will raise car drivers awareness of cyclists by their increased presence on the roads, another improvement to cyclists safety.
I believe if you compare the number of car registrations per car accident to the number of m/bike reistrations per bike accident bikes come out safer.
With petrol inevitably going to get dearer the AA would better serve the community and its members by positive actions such as suggestions and tips on learning to ride properly and on choosing the right scoot for the commute. Most under 50cc scoots not requiring a bike licence are not suitable or capable of travelling above 70kph.
There may be a risk of mature drivers thinking "I had a bike licence back in the seventies (briefly maybe) so I can handle a mans bike" These born again riders are most at risk of overstepping their abilities with modern bikes. Todays' young people are forced to ride under 250cc bikes and therefore learn at a gradual pace. Something seriously missing from car licencing.

It would be nice to hear more on the News from the AA correcting 'any misconceptions' caused by your recent comments.

[Hitcher]

Good thread ixion, when challenged, the AA in their biased way rely upon the adage:

"WE WITHDRAW THE REMARK YOUR HONOUR" but the stain remains.

Unaffected ignorant people are then tricked into believing a desired false notion.

We are all currently being bombarded by political equivalence of this AA style bullshit, every day. It's intended for the persuasion of the gullible masses.
Welcome to my world...

[Sniper]

Seems like this tends to be the PC New Zealand part acting up again. Once they are pointed out that their statement was incorrect, they point the finger somewhere else and not just stand up and say, I did wrong, Im sorry, I will try fix it. Bloody high earners

[Ixion]

UPDATE - Email form Greg Hunting (attached)

Summary - the "study" relied on was an Australian one - so the figures are not NZ ones. The source is not referenced. And the relative fatality rates (though extreme, and I don't believe them) are still less than 80 times.

I'm trying to track down the source now

Still haven't heard from the Chief Reporter of the Harold

But on my reading it does look like the Harold has reasonably faithfully reported what the AA said. (whether they should check such things may be another matter). So I reckon it's still with the AA to prove or retract

[HenryDorsetCase]

good effort!

[rfc85]

well done to all involved,only just read this thread,first i knew about

[avgas]

ive just read through this all again....had a little think.......

I LIKE BEING CONSIDERED DANGEROUS

:bash: its what riding is all about ;)

[bumsex]

I just heard about this thread.

Registered my disgust with G. Hunting.
You're doing a wicked job man.

[Groins_NZ]

What a croc... no matter how many times I read Mr. Huntings email it still sounds like a load of bullocks! Even if the statistics were correct, the way they have portrayed the concept of owning/riding a motorcycle is completely biased. “80 times more dangerous”, does that ‘scientifically calculated’ figure take into account the high percentage of dumb F&#$ who haven’t learnt to drive their car properly?

Yes, in most circumstances and in the event you get hit while riding a bike you’re more likely to come of worse than if you were in a car but “80 times more dangerous” – based on what and why? Is it because there are 80 times the number of cars on the road to get hit by while out riding? :eek:

I’ll give up now…

[parsley]

I LIKE BEING CONSIDERED DANGEROUS
Yeah, but it's the motorcycles that are being considered dangerous, not the motorcyclists. Otherwise you could argue that motorcyclists are 80 times more dangerous than cage drivers because we're so studly and virile we represent a huge temptation to all those unsatisfied girlies (or boys for the ladies here) out there. :moon:

[scumdog]

Thing is, if you can fog a mirror and can't fit a 4" hoop over your head then you are suitable to 'drive' a car.
Take a shit load more ability and a shit-load more 'balls' (sorry ladies) to ride a scoot....

[Virago]

Statistics are wonderful aids to anyone who is pushing a particular agenda.

A while back Gunsafe (anti-gun nutters) announced that they had statistics to prove that "the most common use of a gun in the home is suicide".

Startling stuff, but it does beg the question - what else would you use a gun "in the home" for? Spider control perhaps?

[scumdog]

Statistics are wonderful aids to anyone who is pushing a particular agenda.

A while back Gunsafe (anti-gun nutters) announced that they had statistics to prove that "the most common use of a gun in the home is suicide".

Startling stuff, but it does beg the question - what else would you use a gun "in the home" for? Spider control perhaps?

Good call!
Went to one where he tied a big truck battery around his neck and jumped off the Henley bridge.
I say ban truck batteries! (and vacuum cleaner pipes, Paraquat, anti-freeze, boot-laces, high cliffs etc etc )

'Gun-safe'? Phillip Alpers? God save us!! (and who pays them anyway??)

[Virago]

Good call!
Went to one where he tied a big truck battery around his neck and jumped off the Henley bridge.
I say ban truck batteries! (and vacuum cleaner pipes, Paraquat, anti-freeze, boot-laces, high cliffs etc etc )

'Gun-safe'? Phillip Alpers? God save us!! (and who pays them anyway??)
Alpers has managed to wangle himself an honourary doctorate from some overseas university, and now uses the title "Professor Alpers" :gob:

[mstriumph]

.......................... Otherwise you could argue that motorcyclists are 80 times more dangerous than cage drivers because we're so studly and virile we represent a huge temptation to all those unsatisfied girlies (or boys for the ladies here) out there. :moon:

........ but ... :confused: surely everybody already KNOWS that??

[Virago]

Good call!
Went to one where he tied a big truck battery around his neck and jumped off the Henley bridge.
I say ban truck batteries!.....
Ah, but did he die of truck battery, or did he die of bridge?

Ban bridges instead!!!!!!!

[mstriumph]

don't apologies --- some of us [at least] would agree with you ... metaphorically-speaking of course :corn:
Thing is, if you can fog a mirror and can't fit a 4" hoop over your head then you are suitable to 'drive' a car.
Take a shit load more ability and a shit-load more 'balls' (sorry ladies) to ride a scoot....

[scumdog]

Ah, but did he die of truck battery, or did he die of bridge?

Ban bridges instead!!!!!!!

Hmm, not sure, have to say my first thoughts were "what a waste of a battery"

The bridge was always there.

[scumdog]

Alpers has managed to wangle himself an honourary doctorate from some overseas university, and now uses the title "Professor Alpers" :gob:

Don't talk to me about Alpers, he REALLY pisses me off, has never owned a proper fire-arm but just look at the shit he spouts!
And who is paying his way?
First fire-arms. then motorbikes etc..... don't laugh, those pricks will sneak up on you!!! - then ALL your fun will be gome!!!

[Fart]

UPDATE:

Spoke by phone to Greg Hunting

"We were misquoted . We were misquoted"

He claims the 80 times figure "came from some paper at a conference". he is trying to find what paper ! (Talk about verifying your fatcs).

Doesn't know if the figures even relate to NZ !

Put him on the spot whether he will contact the Harold to seek a retraction/correction " Yes, I'm getting stuff together for that". He claims he is trying to find what the AA spokesperson (not him) actually said. Seems they have no idea !

He claims that what they were TRYING to say was that it was unwise for car drivers to just jump on a two-wheeler, relying on their car license (ie the moped thing again) .

I think he is in no doubt that he has stirred up a hornet's nest.

Onward now to the Harold


Good on you Ixion.

I think we should all play our part and email AA and the Herald. Put more pressure on them to get their facts right and for bikers to have our rights also.

I will email them tommorrow.

[bumsex]

This is what I got back from G Hunting

Dear Chris,

Thank you for your comments on the report in the news about petrol
prices and motorcycles. The context in which the comments were made was
that large motorcycles can be quite dangerous for inexperienced riders
and that the AA would have concerns about people suddenly switching from
a car to a large motorcycle without adequate skills/experience, just
because of the cost of petrol. I'm sure you'd agree riding requires a
quite different and more demanding skill set than driving.

Having said that I admit I was surprised by the statistics that novice
riders on large bikes are up to 80 times more at risk than car drivers
(this figure, by the way, came from a recent road safety conference).
We recognise that there is a range of sizes of motorbikes, and also a
range of experience and maturity amongst riders, so the risks are
certainly not as high for the average motorcyclist, and are even lower
for an experienced mature motorcyclist. This is borne out by the
statistics from Land Transport and ACC (see below). As you'll see the
figures do indicate far too many motorcyclists are losing their lives or
being seriously injured on our roads.

In light of this, it occurs to me that the AA might be able to work with
the motorcycle community through an AA project called Safer Roads to
help reduce this crash level. The project is designed to encourage
'safer drivers in safer cars on safer roads'. While the 'roads' aspect
is clearly important to motorcyclists, there could also be a place for
'safer riders'. If you'd like to know more, have a look at AA Online
(www.aa.co.nz/saferroads).

I suspect as petrol prices remain high, more and more New Zealanders
will look at the option of shifting to two wheels. Hopefully they will
do so with the necessary training and knowledge of what is involved.

Regards

Greg Hunting
GENERAL MANAGER
Corporate Communications
The New Zealand Automobile
Association Incorporated

T. +64 9 966 8949
F. +64 9 966 8896
E. ghunting@aa.co.nz
W. www.aa.co.nz


Motorcycle Injury and Death Rates Compared to Car occupants

New Zealand - (http://www.health.auckland.ac.nz/ipc/pdf/fs19.pdf)
Land Transport New Zealand and ACC figures show that the injury and
death rate for motorcycles per 1,000 riders is 19.38. This compares with
drivers and passengers in cars, where the rate is per 1,000 is 1.94.

The agencies also say that motorcycles with engines of 250 cc or greater
are more likely to be involved in crashes than motorcycles with smaller
engines. However, risk does not appear to continue to increase with
increasing engine size over 250 cc

Australia -
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) official figures show that
-
* Motorcycle rider deaths are nearly 30 times more than drivers of
other vehicles
* Motorcycle riders aged below 40 are 36 times more likely to be
killed than other vehicle operators of the same age.

United States -
The US Department of Transportation states that in 2003 Motorcyclists
were 32 times as likely as passenger car occupants to die in a crash,
per vehicle miles travelled.

Interesting. I have not had time to have a good read and to digest what he has actually said as yet. Thought I would forward it on though.

[Wolf]

G Hunting:

The context in which the comments were made was
that large motorcycles can be quite dangerous for inexperienced riders
and that the AA would have concerns about people suddenly switching from
a car to a large motorcycle without adequate skills/experience, just
because of the cost of petrol. I'm sure you'd agree riding requires a
quite different and more demanding skill set than driving.
Oh yes, and of course, everyone deciding to switch to two wheels is going to jump on a huge "dangerous" bike because there are no laws whatsoever to stop an inexperienced person from riding a "litre plus" bike...

FFS, what kind of moron is this Hunting chap?

That's as bad as the anti-firearm fruitcakes saying "people can go out and buy automatic weapons" (politician claimed he had bought an "automatic weapon" over the counter - for a start it was a semi-auto rifle, and secondly, in order for him to have purchased it legally over the counter he would have had to have produced a valid firearms licence proving he had sat and passed a firearms safety test and had a police clearance, but lets not let the facts that there are safety regulations and licensing laws in place to lessen the risks get in the way of a good paranoia rant...)

[Oakie]

Random thought ... right at the start of the thread it said that 30 motorcylists were killed compared to 300 odd car occupants. If more than 30 pedestrians were killed in the same period would that make biking safer than walking?
Ahh statistics. Gotta love 'em!

[SARGE]

Don't talk to me about Alpers, he REALLY pisses me off, has never owned a proper fire-arm but just look at the shit he spouts!
And who is paying his way?
First fire-arms. then motorbikes etc..... don't laugh, those pricks will sneak up on you!!! - then ALL your fun will be gome!!!


First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


Pastor Martin Niemöller

[Wolf]

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


Pastor Martin Niemöller
And when we do speak out, we're labelled "whinging reactionary bastards"


or maybe that just happens to me...

[XP@]

Car driver to bike rider ... well moped rider (same licence) is a big worry to the AA!

Then WHY THE F*** are they giving away mopeds???