EBR 1190RX - Review

[sil3nt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwu9pqh2Z8I
:drool:

Love the look, the tech and the fuel economy!

[Laava]

Don't forget the more sensible brother!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Izo8L97PdvE&sns=em

[Devil]

Amusing review.

Sounds like a good bike, but I just cant get over the looks.

[Oblivion]

I think it would look nice with underbelly pipes, or even something like the MV brutale with the 3 on the side just before the swingarm.

....Dont judge me...

[Mike.Gayner]

Amusing review.

Sounds like a good bike, but I just cant get over the looks.

Yeah unfortunately American styling leaves a lot to be desired. I could never spend that much money on a bike I didn't want to look at.

[Laava]

Amusing review.

Sounds like a good bike, but I just cant get over the looks.

Really? What is it about it that doesn't do it for you? Not criticising, as to me it just looks like a sports bike. Not a fan of the muffler but that is easily sorted. But the rest of it looks pretty usual to me. The reviews all say good things but it seems that big perimeter disc has done it's day. They say it is costing them 3 sec a lap in the superbikes as well.

[haydes55]

Really? What is it about it that doesn't do it for you? Not criticising, as to me it just looks like a sports bike. Not a fan of the muffler but that is easily sorted. But the rest of it looks pretty usual to me. The reviews all say good things but it seems that big perimeter disc has done it's day. They say it is costing them 3 sec a lap in the superbikes as well.


Surely having a few hundred grams on the wheels won't attribute solely to a 3 seconds per lap disadvantage? If the increase in braking performance isn't worth the decrease in turning ability, accept it as a design flaw, re-engineer it. Erik Buell seems like the guy who would change a production bike for a 0.1 second advantage

[avgas]

Really? What is it about it that doesn't do it for you? Not criticising, as to me it just looks like a sports bike. Not a fan of the muffler but that is easily sorted. But the rest of it looks pretty usual to me. The reviews all say good things but it seems that big perimeter disc has done it's day. They say it is costing them 3 sec a lap in the superbikes as well.
Fairing and Headlights.

I loved the 12R and 12S.........these new Buels just look like some sort of KawaHonda hybrid. All covered in over inflated plastic.

[Laava]

Surely having a few hundred grams on the wheels won't attribute solely to a 3 seconds per lap disadvantage? If the increase in braking performance isn't worth the decrease in turning ability, accept it as a design flaw, re-engineer it. Erik Buell seems like the guy who would change a production bike for a 0.1 second advantage

The disadvantage is from poorer braking, not from extra weight. In fact the perimeter disc is lighter than a twin disc conventional. But if they put two perimeter discs on...
But they prob can't change on the race bikes because of homologation.


Fairing and Headlights.

I loved the 12R and 12S.........these new Buels just look like some sort of KawaHonda hybrid. All covered in over inflated plastic.

Everyone hated the looks of the 1125r too but it didn't bother me at all. I thought it was kinda funky. Agree about the XBr and s. The tank/frame comb is a big winner for me!

[Devil]

Really? What is it about it that doesn't do it for you? Not criticising, as to me it just looks like a sports bike. Not a fan of the muffler but that is easily sorted. But the rest of it looks pretty usual to me. The reviews all say good things but it seems that big perimeter disc has done it's day. They say it is costing them 3 sec a lap in the superbikes as well.

Headlight looks pretty dated, although modern Honda-ish - which I hate. Exhaust is a novel idea, but poorly executed - just doesn't look good, looks cheap. But yeah pipes are a common issue on bikes now.
There's just something cheap looking about the thing in general - reminds me of a Kwaka 250 or similar. That kinda of cheap black paint. It looks a bit of a mish mash of parts.

[Laava]

Headlight looks pretty dated, although modern Honda-ish - which I hate. Exhaust is a novel idea, but poorly executed - just doesn't look good, looks cheap. But yeah pipes are a common issue on bikes now.
There's just something cheap looking about the thing in general - reminds me of a Kwaka 250 or similar. That kinda of cheap black paint. It looks a bit of a mish mash of parts.

I see your point. Would be interesting to see the quality control IRL. My last bike was an 1125r and I loved it. There were no issues with quality, plenty with styling it would seem. But it was friggen nice to ride and relatively easy to work on. Easiest wheel removal I have seen on any bike in a long time. Wish I could afford to own 2 bikes, I would have kept it. Guy that bought it relisted it on TM the following weekend and it is still there! Cheapest 1125 on the market by a long shot!

[Ocean1]

Surely having a few hundred grams on the wheels won't attribute solely to a 3 seconds per lap disadvantage? If the increase in braking performance isn't worth the decrease in turning ability, accept it as a design flaw, re-engineer it. Erik Buell seems like the guy who would change a production bike for a 0.1 second advantage

That front brake assembly is several Kg lighter than typical sprotsbike dual brembos. Look at the quantity of material NOT in the front wheel spokes. Material not in the calliper mount because the load's less. Minimum unsprung weight is one of Buell's pet design targets.

The discs on the XBs have been known to suffer early death due to less than perfect material spec's, but outside of that they work fucking well on the road. I deliberately pushed my 1125 brakes on Manfeild, to see how much reserve I had, gave them hell for 4 laps and there was no noticeable loss of power. Having said that the disc was a very dark blue, it'd been very very hot.

They're definitely pushing the design limit for materials, both pads and discs, because of the much higher surface speeds and lower mass in which to dump the same amount of heat. But according to most reviews by people that, unlike me actually use most of a bike's capabilities they're 95% as good as anything else out there.

Why persist with something 5% less good? Because sooner or later they'll develop materials that can handle the extra speeds and heat as well as anything else used on smaller disc setups. From what I hear they're just about there now, and they still have that several Kg advantage in unsprung mass.

They're not doing well at WSB level, they say that's mostly down to the fact that they're using engines straight off the assembly line and the electronics package is limiting available HP. I don't really care, if I'm in the market for a superbike I'm not silly enough to equate race results to desirable road performance. Those motors may be short 30odd HP as they sit on the grid but they hit fucking hard everywhere in the rev range, and that makes them a very pleasant machine to use on the road.

[Ocean1]

Headlight looks pretty dated, although modern Honda-ish - which I hate. Exhaust is a novel idea, but poorly executed - just doesn't look good, looks cheap. But yeah pipes are a common issue on bikes now.
There's just something cheap looking about the thing in general - reminds me of a Kwaka 250 or similar. That kinda of cheap black paint. It looks a bit of a mish mash of parts.

I like the RX. Unfortunate, because I'm too big for it. And I don't need a sprotsbike. Not really.

I don't particularly like the headlight on the SX, but I could live with it. What upsets me is things like the pressed steel pipe guard on the right, there. Pressed sheet steel anything usually looks cheap, even if it is a good design solution.

[Drew]

I've been pretty clear that I don't lime the front brakes on these things. And it hasn't been altered by this review.

Lets examine what's gone into making them possibly only 5% less efficient than the system everyone else employs. They got made heavier than they used to be, by losing the ventilation holes and putting slots in. Then they try and duct air at it...and it's still notvas good.

Mark, you reckon they'll find materials to make them as good as everyone elses gear. But, everyone else can use those materials and the bar gets that much higher again.

Gas in the frame? Hope they have sorted out it pissing out the overflow, when ya fill the bike up when it's warm.

Seems to me, Eric is using the same model as Harley. Make something, then fight tooth and nail to not have to change it.

[Ocean1]

I've been pretty clear that I don't lime the front brakes on these things. And it hasn't been altered by this review.

Lets examine what's gone into making them possibly only 5% less efficient than the system everyone else employs. They got made heavier than they used to be, by losing the ventilation holes and putting slots in. Then they try and duct air at it...and it's still notvas good.

Mark, you reckon they'll find materials to make them as good as everyone elses gear. But, everyone else can use those materials and the bar gets that much higher again.

Gas in the frame? Hope they have sorted out it pissing out the overflow, when ya fill the bike up when it's warm.

Seems to me, Eric is using the same model as Harley. Make something, then fight tooth and nail to not have to change it.

Mate in all of the history of tech improvements in bikes, (or anything else) over the years very roughly none have been as a result of doing things the way everyone else does. So the very first thing any design for a new machine that's got any chance of being better has to be is :different.

In the case of Buell's inside out brake there's quite a few design spin-offs that contribute to the likely improvements available. That makes it difficult to analyse it's overall effectiveness, but most users seem to agree that those improvements are indeed there. There's really only one disadvantage: Heat. The torque involved in a superbike's front brake equates to well over 100hp's worth. Pretty much all of that energy is converted to heat. Same energy from the same braking force, but Buells have maybe just 60% of the disc mass to absorb it, so they get a lot hotter, which has been the challenge from day one. Slots? probably no more material involved, and you could get slotted racing discs from Buell for the XBs years ago.

The EBRs are different from the 1125s, geometry has changed, zorst is new, it's longer wheelbase, more head angle... a lot of what made up the early bikes characteristic handling has changed. That's not a sign that they're resisting change in spite of poor performance. And the RX brake has received better reviews than the XBs or the 1125.

As for everyone else jumping on any improvements in materials technology, good on 'em, they'll probably improve performance as a result. But not much. Where's the advantage for them in materials capable of higher temperatures if they don't get that hot in the first place?

Now the tank overflow was just piss poor attention to detail, there's probably a reason they didn't vent it to the right hand, uphill side but I doubt it's a very good one.

[Drew]

While I don't disagree that change is the way forward, and how to improve. If the system was better and heat were the only enemy, all GP bikes would use them made of carbon. Since the biggest problem they currently have is that they need to be hot as all fuck.

Sorry man, it's just not as good. That bugs the shit out of me.

[Ocean1]

While I don't disagree that change is the way forward, and how to improve. If the system was better and heat were the only enemy, all GP bikes would use them made of carbon. Since the biggest problem they currently have is that they need to be hot as all fuck.

Sorry man, it's just not as good. That bugs the shit out of me.

You've got it the wrong way around dude. GP bikes aren't some technological cutting edge that production bikes should aspire to. Their function is to sell bikes, production bikes, their most important feature is that they need to look like the bike punters will see in the showroom Monday.

They're just advertising, and it's MUCH cheaper to invest in advertising than to waste money actually building more advanced motorbikes, to race or to sell.

[Drew]

They are advertising....that works best if they win. To win, the bikes need to be the best.

[Ocean1]

They are advertising....that works best if they win. To win, the bikes need to be the best.

And look like a production bike.

Which isn't actually the same thing as "best" for either a race bike or a road bike.

[Urano]

But the rest of it looks pretty usual to me.

and that's the problem... :)



That front brake assembly is several Kg lighter than typical sprotsbike dual brembos. Look at the quantity of material NOT in the front wheel spokes. Material not in the calliper mount because the load's less. Minimum unsprung weight is one of Buell's pet design targets.

yea...
but we have to keep in mind a pair of problems.
first, rotating things have their masses multiplied by the gyro effect, while linear moving parts have not.
so having a 100gms less that moves in a linear way is better when the wheel have to deal with road bumps, but having even the same weight closer to the hub is better in any occasion. that's why we still have 320 discs which i had on a 90's 125 futura, and attempts to make them larger have still been proved useless.
i have huge doubts about the efficiency of the rim solution when it comes to gyro effect, as well as thermal expansion control and thermal transmission to the rim AND the tires.

the second problem is that single sided claws do destabilize the bike as you start braking. while wandering around on the road you'd find hard to notice that, but when you demand a little more it becomes annoying...

i wouldn't buy a single sided front disc bike anymore nowadays, except maybe a very cheap 250cc commuter...

so:



Why persist with something 5% less good? Because sooner or later they'll develop materials that can handle the extra speeds and heat as well as anything else used on smaller disc setups. From what I hear they're just about there now, and they still have that several Kg advantage in unsprung mass.

several kgs seems to me a wild guess... in an old interview, buell's engineers talked about a 30% in weight reduction.
but the problems with gyro and heat remain.

i keep being convinced that buell's choice is, more than other, a market recognize factor.
the same way ducati keeps its engine mounted front trellis, which has been proven to be way less efficient than an integral frame. since it has little downsides in everyday riding and it's sooooo cool...


all in all, i don't like buell's bikes. :)

[pritch]

all in all, i don't like buell's bikes. :)

Well Urano, i'd sort of assume that in Italy people would be wearing red, white and green tinted glasses and would buy Ducati or MV?
Just as some in the USA might be similarly motivated to buy an EBR instead of an Italian bike.
Here, being neutral we can choose whatever spins our crank - and there's always somebody who wants to be different.

[Urano]

sorry i've been late for my mandolin lesson... ;)


Well Urano, i'd sort of assume that in Italy people would be wearing red, white and green tinted glasses and would buy Ducati or MV?

...and aprilia. don't forget aprilia. even if we're too dumb to promote them as they deserve.
...uh, and guzzi. ya, but that only is if you're old.
all the others (bimota, borile, ghezzi&brian, morini...) are for strange people...



Here, being neutral we can choose whatever spins our crank - and there's always somebody who wants to be different.

ok, but it's not that EVERYTHING that's "different" is also "good".
there's a lot of "different" thing in the world, some are good some are... meh...
zanella: http://www.zanella.com.ar/producto.php?pid=19
ktm: http://www.ktm.com/nz/supersport/1190-rc8-r-eu/highlights.html#.U-iNCcIcCMQ (ok, this is actually very good...)
minsk: http://minsk-moto.com/en/street/r250.html (with the trellis swingarm... wow...)
bultaco: http://www.bultaco.es/rapitan
norton: http://www.nortonmotorcycles.com/bikes/commando-961-sf/
janus: http://janusmotorcycles.com/motorcycles/halcyon-50/

[pritch]

sorry i've been late for my mandolin lesson... ;)



...and aprilia. don't forget aprilia. even if we're too dumb to promote them as they deserve.
...uh, and guzzi. ya, but that only is if you're old.
all the others (bimota, borile, ghezzi&brian, morini...) are for strange people...



ok, but it's not that EVERYTHING that's "different" is also "good".
there's a lot of "different" thing in the world, some are good some are... meh...
zanella: http://www.zanella.com.ar/producto.php?pid=19
ktm: http://www.ktm.com/nz/supersport/1190-rc8-r-eu/highlights.html#.U-iNCcIcCMQ (ok, this is actually very good...)
minsk: http://minsk-moto.com/en/street/r250.html (with the trellis swingarm... wow...)
bultaco: http://www.bultaco.es/rapitan
norton: http://www.nortonmotorcycles.com/bikes/commando-961-sf/
janus: http://janusmotorcycles.com/motorcycles/halcyon-50/


My apologies to Aprilia and to Guzzi for the omission. And I must be nearly old enough for a Guzzi but...

Who knew about Zanella or Minsk? It seems sad to see the name Bultaco on an electric bike, I'll always associate the name with two stroke racers.
Then there's Janus. :facepalm: Styled like a Brough Superior but hopefully selling for a lot less money.

[Urano]

It seems sad to see the name Bultaco on an electric bike, I'll always associate the name with two stroke racers.


i think it's a good idea instead.
let's face it: not being in the top badge means to be damned to oblivion and bultaco has gone down that road 15 years ago.
how sad is seeing glorious derbi makin cheap and ugly 50s?
cagiva which is kept artificially alive only to build a regrettable shadow of the sparkly 90's mito?

one way or another electric is a growing part of the market, who cared if they maked the whatever1000ccanonymousbike?

even HD, lookin to expand its market share, has gone to electric.
and i think buell should have done something similar too...

[deeknow]

Hey all, sorry to drag up an old thread (ok, I'm not sorry really, get over it :2thumbsup) but...

Am rather taken by the 1190RX, there are a couple for sale in NZ now at what seems like a reasonable price, and I'd love to know if anyone has actually owned one, or knows someone who has.

Be especially interested in any feedback on any tech issues, any recalls, what support has been like from the few retailers that seem to be around etc. Seems like the front rotor has had issues in a couple of reports but when replaced has been ok. And that EFI fueling was a little sketchy initially but I assume that 2yrs later thats flashable to sort out. The heavy clutch was an early "thing" but apparently there was a factory avail master cylinder update avail to lighten it up? Oh and sounds like valve-clearance checks are at pretty regular/short intervals, not super worried about that except that living in Hamilton will require a road-trip and maybe leaving the bike out of town just for servicing (the curse of buying something not Japanese I guess)

thanks in advance,
Dean

[Laava]

I rode one and the fuelling seemed fine, it had loads of power and smooth from right down low. It was a demo and the front rotor was good but the earlier 1125 was very prone to them warping. The valve clearances are no problem to do, bit fiddly but aren,t most big sportbikes theses days? Availabilty of parts would be my biggest concern...there is a chance that the phoenix may rise from the ashes but don't hold your breath.