Nicky Hager

[Stylo]

Been a busy day on the political front .. Hager doing what he does best, stirring shit .../

Prime Minister John Key has dismissed Nicky Hager's book Dirty Politics as "a bunch of baseless allegations" as opposition parties demand answers and lay complaints with the police.

The book, launched on Wednesday, implicates Mr Key's office in covert smear campaigns against National's political opponents.

It reveals email correspondence between blogger Cameron Slater and Beehive staffer Jason Ede, as well as with cabinet minister Judith Collins and National Party insiders.

"The National Party is doing everything above board and it's totally fine," Mr Key told reporters on Tuesday when he faced the media for the first time since the book launch.

"Mr Hager's making claims he can't back up and they're not factually correct."

Mr Key denies his office had anything to do with Slater's online attacks against the Labour Party and says the book is "dirty politics from the left".

Labour, the Greens and NZ First are taking Hager at his word.

"The National government is up to its neck in dirty politics and may have broken the law while smearing opponents," said Green Party co-leader Metiria Turei.

The Greens are laying complaints with the police and other agencies over Mr Ede's alleged involvement and other claims in the book.

Labour leader David Cunliffe says the book reveals "a very nasty turn in New Zealand politics" and Mr Key should address the allegations, not just dismiss them.

"This leaves the prime minister with some very serious questions to answer," he said.

NZ First leader Winston Peters has drawn comparisons with the Watergate scandal, saying the trail leads to the prime minister's office.

THE ALLEGATIONS IN THE BOOK INCLUDE:
The PM's office used its knowledge of secret SIS documents to tip off Slater to attack the Labour leader in the 2011 election campaign

Mr Ede drafted Official Information Act requests that were passed on to Slater

Political strategist Simon Lusk was also involved on many of the plans that were laid

Justice Minister Judith Collins emailed Slater an account of Labour's Trevor Mallard making a fool of himself

Slater boasted Mr Key had called him after the blogger was attacked over his comments about a West Coast man killed in a road crash.


WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY:
"Nicky Hager has been drawing pictures, drawing dots, thinks that he's got a picture of a conspiracy, but he's actually got a bunch of squiggly lines, it's something a four-year-old at kindergarten would draw" - Whale Oil blogger Cameron Slater

"Dirty politics is legal, hacking my private computer is not. Your book is based on the product of a criminal act" - Slater, again

"Funnily enough it's exactly what it says on the cover: it is a dirty politics book" - National's Steven Joyce

"We've had a gutsful of this kind of politics and think New Zealanders have too" - Labour leader David Cunliffe

"I think this is an over-hyped, under-delivered book from a left-wing conspiracy theorist five weeks before an election" - Justice Minister Judith Collins

"Sadly for the prime minister it goes to his office in the same way it went to Nixon's office during the Watergate scandal" - NZ First leader Winston Peters

"Nicky Hager has discovered that politicians talk to the media. I feel I should confess that I too am guilty" - ACT leader Jamie Whyte

"This (information) shines a light on something which otherwise might have been secret for the rest of time and the public has a total right to know this" - author Nicky Hager

"National is trying to dismiss dirty and dodgy behaviour as business as usual. It is not" - Green Party co-leader Metiria Turei

"This is not normal political behaviour and must not be seen as such" - Internet Party leader Laila Harre

"This book is a damming expose on how the prime minister's office operates and shows the true side of National's 'attack politics' that gives real weight to the description of Key as the 'Smiling Assassin'" - Mana leader Hone Harawira.

[fridayflash]

cheers stylo

ive been wanting to get the skinny on that saga and youve laid out the main points for us. its a bit of a giggle, nothing more..as the act bloke
said 'niki hagar has discovered that politicians talk to media sources' next he'll be writing about scandalous police have 'criminal enformants'
big fucken deal, you can rest assured ian wishart wouldnt publish any dishwater like this

[Berries]

WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY:
"I think this is an over-hyped, under-delivered book from a yawn fucking yawn fucking yawn fucking yawn" - Me.

What do people expect from New Zealand politicians?

[Winston001]

Much as I cannot warm to Nicky Harger or indeed Ian Wishart, we need these people who tilt at windmills because occasionally they will find a real dragon. It is important for an open society that investigations be done and questions be asked.

Fortunately - and its confirmation of our lack of corruption - nothing significant has been discovered.

By contrast similar investigations in Australia and Washington DC almost always uncover political favours and influence.

And lets not forget Winston Peters Wine Box of documents and Ian Wishart's exposure of the tax dodging details. Lawful as those activities may have been, they were still an eye-opener for the general public.

[TheDemonLord]

Or if you take the attitude that all politicians are lieing weasels, and assume that they are always weaseling, then you are not in the least bit surprised when it comes to light that they have been acting like lieing weasels.

As much as I hate to agree with the twat on 7# - Politicians being dirty and leaking information is nothing new, nor is it something that we should suddenly be offended by.

[R650R]

So baseless allegations but then they go on to say he's quoting stolen emails ie written statements :scratch:
NZ has very strict libel and defamation laws, if anything untrue was said in print, first off the publishers lawyers would never allow it and secondly Nationals legal team would be all over him...

I don't worship either of the main political icons so its no drama for me but quite funny to watch people freak out about what they claim is nothing... :)

[avgas]

http://www.keepcalmandposters.com/posters/2879780.jpg

[Banditbandit]

Or if you take the attitude that all politicians are lieing weasels, and assume that they are always weaseling, then you are not in the least bit surprised when it comes to light that they have been acting like lieing weasels.

As much as I hate to agree with the twat on 7# - Politicians being dirty and leaking information is nothing new, nor is it something that we should suddenly be offended by.

Yeah .. that's about it ... amusing and all ... but just proof they are shucking and jiving to the max ..

[HenryDorsetCase]

I am far more prepared to believe ill of Key and his lumpy minions than I am of other politicians, because I think that other politicians would be hopelessly incompetent at the sort of wet ops that Hager is alleging. I do not doubt for a second that all of the filthy dirty conduct alleged, and in particular the involvement of the AWFUL cameron slater is absolute fact.

Why am I not that angry about it? Because I (and I suspect many others) "knew" in the back of our minds that this sort of shit goes down day in and day out. So having it confirmed is not a surprise.

all it does is further disengage the governed from their overlords.

It is a hateful, terrible business, one best avoided.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Much as I cannot warm to Nicky Harger or indeed Ian Wishart, we need these people who tilt at windmills because occasionally they will find a real dragon. It is important for an open society that investigations be done and questions be asked.

Fortunately - and its confirmation of our lack of corruption - nothing significant has been discovered.

By contrast similar investigations in Australia and Washington DC almost always uncover political favours and influence.

And lets not forget Winston Peters Wine Box of documents and Ian Wishart's exposure of the tax dodging details. Lawful as those activities may have been, they were still an eye-opener for the general public.

nu zillun generally, and politics specifically is a very small shallow pool.

[MisterD]

NZ has very strict libel and defamation laws, if anything untrue was said in print, first off the publishers lawyers would never allow it and secondly Nationals legal team would be all over him...

Yeah, but as Judith Collins noted on the telly this morning, Hager has been very careful to weasel around direct allegations by using "might have" and "could have" etc.

[oldrider]

Niki Who? ....... yawn! :sleep: The dogs of the left seek out and yap at lame sensation while the rest of the world marches on! :rolleyes:

[dinosaur]

Fortunately - and its confirmation of our lack of corruption - nothing significant has been discovered.

By contrast similar investigations in Australia and Washington DC almost always uncover political favours and influence.

I think Judith Collins - Minister of Corrections; moved a prisoner for no other reason than at the request of a blogger Cameron Slater - payback for spreading rumors and shit about her adversaries. Now that is corruption and does need to be looked into

Hacking Text messages and personal details about the leader of ACT and then bribing him to stand down or you'll make them public
acting as an agent for the government

I don't like Hagar but i have to admit that he has yet to be found wrong from his previous books, including Hollow men

And no one will actually sue him, I think most of whats there is only scratching the surface and they will be very adverse to having the whole story come out

:baby:

[dinosaur]

I found it unusual that Cunliff came out weeks ago with his 'keeping it positive' campaign

he seemed to know what the book was about for sure, and took steps to create the illusion that Labour are above all that
But he is still surrounded by the same shit as all the rest of them

[imdying]

the involvement of the AWFUL cameron slaterCan't see much of this interests me a great deal, I expect politicians to be cunts, but that fat retard makes me puke. Hopefully the attention will all become a bit too much and he'll off himself.

[MisterD]

Hopefully the attention will all become a bit too much and he'll off himself.

That's way out of fucking order. Not cool, not cool at all.

[imdying]

That's way out of fucking order. Not cool, not cool at all.Cry me a river :violin:

[MisterD]

Cry me a river :violin:

Nah, I'll just call you a fuckwit.

[Blackbird]

I am far more prepared to believe ill of Key and his lumpy minions than I am of other politicians, because I think that other politicians would be hopelessly incompetent at the sort of wet ops that Hager is alleging. I do not doubt for a second that all of the filthy dirty conduct alleged, and in particular the involvement of the AWFUL cameron slater is absolute fact.

Why am I not that angry about it? Because I (and I suspect many others) "knew" in the back of our minds that this sort of shit goes down day in and day out. So having it confirmed is not a surprise.

all it does is further disengage the governed from their overlords.

It is a hateful, terrible business, one best avoided.

You're quite right of course, but it's endemic in all walks of life and has been like this for hundreds of years. It's just that with electronic media and the increased potential for getting hold of info which people would rather not see the light of day, it's just a lot more obvious these days.

On a far lesser scale, it happens on KB with the innuendo and character assassination which isn't exactly rare so it's a case of pot, kettle, black for people to be outraged on here :laugh:

[mashman]

Can't see much of this interests me a great deal, I expect politicians to be cunts, but that fat retard makes me puke. Hopefully the attention will all become a bit too much and he'll off himself.

I could only agree to that if he walked into parliament wearing a semtex vest.

[HenryDorsetCase]

You're quite right of course, but it's endemic in all walks of life and has been like this for hundreds of years. It's just that with electronic media and the increased potential for getting hold of info which people would rather not see the light of day, it's just a lot more obvious these days.

On a far lesser scale, it happens on KB with the innuendo and character assassination which isn't exactly rare so it's a case of pot, kettle, black for people to be outraged on here :laugh:

That's outrageous!!!! How can you say that!

;-)

[mada]

That's way out of fucking order. Not cool, not cool at all.

How outrageous that someone should show no sympathy to someone who shows no sympathy to mothers who lose their kids and people affected by earthquakes.

Good moral compass you have their mate.:rolleyes:

[imdying]

Nah, I'll just call you a fuckwit.Oh, how fucking tragic :rolleyes:

I'm just a piece of shit South Islander, guess wanting that fat cunt to kill himself is part of it :motu:

[unstuck]

I can see this happening some time soon.:whistle:


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-w7r86yK9VYs/U0gqXA9WwlI/AAAAAAAB2bg/L-doMCrnCO8/s1600/AltLead.GIF

[HenryDorsetCase]

That's way out of fucking order. Not cool, not cool at all.

I agree with /u/imdying: purely because of this:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/10385310/Earthquake-victims-scum-says-blogger


South Islanders are useless and East Christchurch earthquake victims scum, controversial blogger Cameron Slater allegedly says in emails disclosed by Dirty Politics author Nicky Hager.

Writing to his friend Peter Smith (not his real name) after the February earthquake, Slater says: "The place is f****d, they should should just board it up and close it down."

Smith: A real tragedy, but it will f***k Labour for the election.

Slater: Yep blessings.

Slater: What i can't believe... is how we have to bail out those useless pricks in the sth island, again.’

Smith: I said to someone today National should let them rot, after all they are useless scum Labour voters especially in the areas where the earthquake hit..well hopefully more scum will labour voters will piss off to Australia (and) at least the uninsured get (f***ing) nothing.’

Slater: Those suburbs are hard core Labour...the owners will be Nat voters though and the voters tenants, so the houses are gone and the scum are gone too, and they should get nothing.


Fuck cameron slater, fuck him hard. what a cunt.

[mada]

I can see this happening some time soon.:whistle:




And one of these


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh163n1lJ4M

[HenryDorsetCase]

Oh, how fucking tragic :rolleyes:

I'm just a piece of shit South Islander, guess wanting that fat cunt to kill himself is part of it :motu:

There's two of us. and around 398998 more in this town.

[yokel]

I can see this happening some time soon.:whistle:
]

That has already happened a good 60 years back haha

[MisterD]

How outrageous that someone should show no sympathy to someone who shows no sympathy to mothers who lose their kids and people affected by earthquakes.

Good moral compass you have their mate.:rolleyes:

Two wrongs make a right in mada-world? What was that you were saying about moral compasses?

Wishing people with a history of mental illness kill themselves isn't big and it isn't clever, no matter what you think of that person.

[mada]

Two wrongs make a right in mada-world? What was that you were saying about moral compasses?

Wishing people with a history of mental illness kill themselves isn't big and it isn't clever, no matter what you think of that person.

Hey, can you point out where I said he should kill himself?

I can understand why people don't have any sympathy for him and wish those things given the hurtful things he has said and done to others. But you're happy to completely overlook all the hurt he has dished out.

Personally I think he should get some help, serious fucking help because for someone to be such a fucking scumbag they have serious issues. And sick fucks like you have been egging him on.

Our moral compasses are completely opposite.

[imdying]

I think we've all expended more energy on him that he justifies... next...

[mada]

I think we've all expended more energy on him that he justifies... next...

True mate, he gets off on the attention.

[Woodman]

How outrageous that someone should show no sympathy to someone who shows no sympathy to mothers who lose their kids and people affected by earthquakes.

Good moral compass you have their mate.:rolleyes:

Their is a possibility that Slater said those things in jest you know. Bad taste humour is everywhere, but Hager wants to sell books.

[mada]

Their is a possibility that Slater said those things in jest you know. Bad taste humour is everywhere, but Hager wants to sell books.

Which things? The mocking of a mother who had lost four sons and after her last son had died and was called feral??? Calling a shit load of Chch scumbags for being affected by an earthquake??

Yeh real funny.:facepalm:

Maybe all the people sending him death threats and wishing him death are doing it in jest? Bad humour etc?

[oldrider]

Our moral compasses are completely opposite.

When you think you have a moral compass you are in deep shit ... time to move on and find another focus while you still can! :mellow:

[Woodman]

Which things? The mocking of a mother who had lost four sons and after her last son had died and was called feral??? Calling a shit load of Chch scumbags for being affected by an earthquake??

Yeh real funny.:facepalm:

Maybe all the people sending him death threats and wishing him death are doing it in jest? Bad humour etc?

I was referring to the CHCH thing and didn't say it was good humour, jut the possibility that it was bad taste humour on his part. Again I have heard a lot worse.

Pretty sure Michael jacksons family don't find Michael Jackson death jokes funny, same as the NASA (need another seven astronauts) astronauts families found that joke funny either. The list goes on and on, check the sick jokes thread.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Two wrongs make a right in mada-world? What was that you were saying about moral compasses?

Wishing people with a history of mental illness kill themselves isn't big and it isn't clever, no matter what you think of that person.

You have uttered an incorrect statement. because he is a cunt your handwringing sickly white middle class liberalism* does not apply.



*see what i did there?

[HenryDorsetCase]

I was referring to the CHCH thing and didn't say it was good humour, jut the possibility that it was bad taste humour on his part. Again I have heard a lot worse.

Pretty sure Michael jacksons family don't find Michael Jackson death jokes funny, same as the NASA (need another seven astronauts) astronauts families found that joke funny either. The list goes on and on, check the sick jokes thread.

being a cameron scumbag apologist is not a path to future happiness, my son.

and it is abundantly clear from those emails these two pillocks are utterly serious in taking an obscene joy in the devastation of a city. my city. so, like I said, fuck him. And fuck you too for siding with him.

Jihad.

[Woodman]

being a cameron scumbag apologist is not a path to future happiness, my son.

and it is abundantly clear from those emails these two pillocks are utterly serious in taking an obscene joy in the devastation of a city. my city. so, like I said, fuck him. And fuck you too for siding with him.

Jihad.

I did say a "possibility" so was just throwing it out there, but folks believe what they want to believe, so, whatevas.

[mashman]

I did say a "possibility" so was just throwing it out there, but folks believe what they want to believe, so, whatevas.

You could always email and ask him? Perhaps a KB mail BOMB.

[buggerit]

When you think you have a moral compass you are in deep shit ... time to move on and find another focus while you still can! :mellow:

Is that all politicians oathe you are quoting or just National?

[carbonhed]

I did say a "possibility" so was just throwing it out there, but folks believe what they want to believe, so, whatevas.

I agree. It sounds like a bad taste bullshit session between two mates in private. To take it as a serious policy position is just stupid and most of these dorks are every bit as toxic on a public forum to boot.

Here's imdying talking about a Kiwibiker who was killed last year :-

"Seemed ok... the gist was some cocksucker riding like a cocksucker wrote himself off, thankfully not taking out somebody else in the process."

now apparently he's a sensitive little flower. :tugger:

[oldrider]

Is that all politicians oathe you are quoting or just National?

The only National I ever had any allegence to was the "National Bank" as a customer but that has a new brand name now but might vote National Party this election!

That's because of the crap opposition being offered as an alternative this time round! :rolleyes:

[HenryDorsetCase]

The only National I ever had any allegence to was the "National Bank" as a customer but that has a new brand name now but might vote National Party this election!

That's because of the crap opposition being offered as an alternative this time round! :rolleyes:

Nah man, vote for th Kim Dot Com party. You're young enough to be part of the party demographic. Plus your added bonus is you get the Munger party and Hone.

Seriously, with a twofer deal like that you simply cannot go wrong.

[Swoop]

Nah man, vote for th Kim Dot Com party. Seriously, with a twofer deal like that you simply cannot go wrong.
It sounds like the trifecta party. Three idiots Hone, Laila and Kim.

The leftists' will be in a quandary working out which bunch of retards they will vote for this year. IF a leftist coalition has to be formed, to become a government, a sad day that would be with that conglomeration (being led by silent T, as well!).:facepalm:

[Oscar]

So a guy uses stolen emails to prove that the Gummint was using stolen emails for dirty politics...

[HenryDorsetCase]

It sounds like the trifecta party. Three idiots Hone, Laila and Kim.

The leftists' will be in a quandary working out which bunch of retards they will vote for this year. IF a leftist coalition has to be formed, to become a government, a sad day that would be with that conglomeration (being led by silent T, as well!).:facepalm:

yes.

a cynic, looking on, might wonder if, say, Liarbour had advance notice of the general tenor of Hagers' book, and deliberately chose the "think positive" campaign mantra as a way to seem to be above all this dirty business. I hope they are that good. but I doubt it.

If so, bravo. More likely IMO is that they got lucky for once.

but until cameron scumbag publishes their emails we won't know.

UeX-SzAICdw

[mashman]

So a guy uses stolen emails to prove that the Gummint was using stolen emails for dirty politics...

Yup. It's called freedom fighting. Veritas Vincit.

[yokel]

yes.

a cynic, looking on, might wonder if, say, Liarbour had advance notice of the general tenor of Hagers' book, and deliberately chose the "think positive" campaign mantra as a way to seem to be above all this dirty business. I hope they are that good. but I doubt it.

If so, bravo. More likely IMO is that they got lucky for once.

but until cameron scumbag publishes their emails we won't know.



Yeah I was thinking same thing, "vote positive" WTF is that, do they want to loose??

and John key has Dot com's idiots burning effigy's and shit to scare the shit out of people, he sure did have a big shit eating grin about it all haha

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/M1OdiVRQrgs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[yokel]

So a guy uses stolen emails to prove that the Gummint was using stolen emails for dirty politics...

you've been listen to Don Brash haven't you.

how else do you find them dummy? ask?

[Oscar]

you've been listen to Don Brash haven't you.

how else do you find them dummy? ask?

It's ironic.
Never mind...
You are VERY stupid person aren't you?

[yokel]

It's ironic.
Never mind...
You are VERY stupid person aren't you?

I call it how I see it.
you're not stupid but you are a idiot

[Berries]

Does anyone think Oscar could fall out with himself if locked in a room?

[Oscar]

Does anyone think Oscar could fall out with himself if locked in a room?

Have you been talking to the Missus?

[oldrider]

This thread has had more attention than the title deserves! :tugger:

[Shaun Harris]

I wonder if I could get him to write a book on another subject

[oldrider]

I wonder if I could get him to write a book on another subject

Probably not .... shit stirring is his modus operandi! :yes:

[pritch]

Maybe it shouldn't be, but it"s rather startling that so many people comment on a book they haven't read.

It's just possible that the thing that pisses me off most about the whole affair is that some pf the parliamentary churnos say that none of the revelations are surprising, 'cause they already knew about the goings on. Well if they know what's happening in parliament and don't tell us, fire their arse and get someone who can do the fucking job.

On second thoughts that may not be the thing that pisses me off most, it's wankers chundering on about "the beltway". Where do these shitheads think they live Washingto DC?

/RANT

[Blackbird]

It's just possible that the thing that pisses me off most about the whole affair is that some pf the parliamentary churnos say that none of the revelations are surprising, 'cause they already knew about the goings on. Well if they know what's happening in parliament and don't tell us, fire their arse and get someone who can do the fucking job./RANT

Hit the nail on the head Ron. There are few true journalists around and even fewer genuine investigative journalists. Most are "reporters" and there's a world of difference. Probably a world-wide trend if you look at news feeds round the world and the focus on instant news bites and the cult of the celebrity :wacko:

As an official Old Fart, I find that very little either surprises or upsets me these days, the plan is to get out and have fun, say what I think and not give a flying f--k. Unless my wife tells me otherwise of course :whistle:

[yokel]

honesty, integrity and responsibility all these cunts have none of it.

I dont know much about this Hager dude other than some people cant stand him, gee wonder why that would be?
people hate the truth haha

[oldrider]

honesty, integrity and responsibility all these cunts have none of it.

I dont know much about this Hager dude other than some people cant stand him, gee wonder why that would be?
people hate the truth haha

Write a letter to the paper (any paper) and compare what you wrote and what they actually write for you! ... Media is totally controlled! :brick:

Stupid reporters have to toe the line or go somewhere else! :yes: Like blogging whale oil and stuff like that! :whistle:

At least on the nett you can sort through the shit that "you" want or don't want to read! (probably not for much longer though!) :oi-grr:

[yokel]

Write a letter to the paper (any paper) and compare what you wrote and what they actually write for you! ... Media is totally controlled! :brick:

Stupid reporters have to toe the line or go somewhere else! :yes: Like blogging whale oil and stuff like that! :whistle:

At least on the nett you can sort through the shit that "you" want or don't want to read! (probably not for much longer though!) :oi-grr:

Tell me about it, I feel like fool for not seeing the wool that's been pulled over my eyes! Grrr

We'll I'm going out to ring my bike's fuckin neck haha

[Ocean1]

Does anyone think Oscar could fall out with himself if locked in a room?

He'd have to fall in with himself first.

[SPman]

I'd trust what Hager says over what Key says, any time!

[Ocean1]

Maybe it shouldn't be, but it"s rather startling that so many people comment on a book they haven't read.

It's just possible that the thing that pisses me off most about the whole affair is that some pf the parliamentary churnos say that none of the revelations are surprising, 'cause they already knew about the goings on. Well if they know what's happening in parliament and don't tell us, fire their arse and get someone who can do the fucking job.

On second thoughts that may not be the thing that pisses me off most, it's wankers chundering on about "the beltway". Where do these shitheads think they live Washingto DC?

/RANT

The thing that I find startling is that anyone should find the alleged behaviour startling.

I mean, in any other group off-the-cuff comments of a derogatory nature would be considered perfectly normal. Hell I've heard worse from kindy teachers, let alone at the local bar or even here for god's sake, but as soon as some shit stirrer with a well known agenda points a bone at opposition politicians it's all on.

Fuck me, every human on the planet utters uncharitable comments about someone else in the privacy of a personal conversation within their own group, why would any sensible person expect different from a politician?

Now, being startled and upset by the theft of personal correspondence, the selective publication and possibly libellous commenting on them I could understand, there's fuck all alleged about them, now is there?

[mashman]

Probably not .... shit stirring is his modus operandi! :yes:

Man got to earn a living ;)

[oldrider]

I'd trust what Hager says over what Key says, any time!

Sometimes wanting is believing! ... Unfortunately I don't know so I can niether confirm nor deny any of that! :oi-grr:

[Woodman]

I'd trust what Hager says over what Key says, any time!

Why?


The thing that I find startling is that anyone should find the alleged behaviour startling.

I mean, in any other group off-the-cuff comments of a derogatory nature would be considered perfectly normal. Hell I've heard worse from kindy teachers, let alone at the local bar or even here for god's sake, but as soon as some shit stirrer with a well known agenda points a bone at opposition politicians it's all on.

Fuck me, every human on the planet utters uncharitable comments about someone else in the privacy of a personal conversation within their own group, why would any sensible person expect different from a politician?

Now, being startled and upset by the theft of personal correspondence, the selective publication and possibly libellous commenting on them I could understand, there's fuck all alleged about them, now is there?


They don't consider this possibility because it doesn't suit their agenda. Its conspiracy theorist 101.

[Ocean1]

I'd trust what Hager says over what Key says, any time!

Which is why your opinion isn't worth much, you assume the party stance well before checking to see if the facts support it.

[mashman]

Write a letter to the paper (any paper) and compare what you wrote and what they actually write for you! ... Media is totally controlled! :brick:

Stupid reporters have to toe the line or go somewhere else! :yes: Like blogging whale oil and stuff like that! :whistle:

At least on the nett you can sort through the shit that "you" want or don't want to read! (probably not for much longer though!) :oi-grr:

True. And having journalists digging around would likely lead to the media having some parliamentary privileges revoked. Alas...

[Ocean1]

Write a letter to the paper (any paper) and compare what you wrote and what they actually write for you! ... Media is totally controlled! :brick:

Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence.

[mashman]

Does anyone think Oscar could fall out with himself if locked in a room?

Nah, the conversation wouldn't last long enough.

[Shaun Harris]

[QUOTE=pritch;1130760456]Maybe it shouldn't be, but it"s rather startling that so many people comment on a book they haven't read.

It's just possible that the thing that pisses me off most about the whole affair is that some pf the parliamentary churnos say that none of the revelations are surprising, 'cause they already knew about the goings on. Well if they know what's happening in parliament and don't tell us, fire their arse and get someone who can do the fucking job.

On second thoughts that may not be the thing that pisses me off most, it's wankers chundering on about "the beltway". Where do these shitheads think they live Washingto DC?





Agreed man, Sounds like a very familliar situation to me

[mashman]

The thing that I find startling is that anyone should find the alleged behaviour startling.

I mean, in any other group off-the-cuff comments of a derogatory nature would be considered perfectly normal. Hell I've heard worse from kindy teachers, let alone at the local bar or even here for god's sake, but as soon as some shit stirrer with a well known agenda points a bone at opposition politicians it's all on.

Fuck me, every human on the planet utters uncharitable comments about someone else in the privacy of a personal conversation within their own group, why would any sensible person expect different from a politician?

Now, being startled and upset by the theft of personal correspondence, the selective publication and possibly libellous commenting on them I could understand, there's fuck all alleged about them, now is there?

NOW sit down, I agree with you, including the off-the-cuff remark bit. BUT ;), if you're going to ignore that which proliferates such behaviour, then you will reap what you sew. Deny it all you like, but the system must change radically and not just be meddled with, again. And again. And again. And again. That is all that has happened throughout history. Some of us are ready to move on. Get yer A into G.

[Ocean1]

NOW sit down, I agree with you, including the off-the-cuff remark bit. BUT ;), if you're going to ignore that which proliferates such behaviour, then you will reap what you sew. Deny it all you like, but the system must change radically and not just be meddled with, again. And again. And again. And again. That is all that has happened throughout history. Some of us are ready to move on. Get yer A into G.

I assume you mean that which causes such behaviour? Behaviour which can be observed anywhere people form groups? Behaviour that can be observed where there isn’t the vaguest hint of money to motivate it? So not a behaviour caused by money then.

So let’s have none of your bullshit about radical changes to “the system”, one which has demonstrably been responsible in your lifetime for the greatest advance in living standards humankind has ever known.

[oldrider]

The thing that I find startling is that anyone should find the alleged behaviour startling.

True!

Hager has seen an opportunity to earn a dollar got to respect him for that but actually being sucked in by it ... that is just fucking stupid! :facepalm:

Notice how eager TV1 and TV3 et al are to swoop in and sensationalise it as if it really matters! ---- Not! :oi-grr:

It's the TV way repeat repeat repeat ad nausium until it's accepted as the truth! :rolleyes:

[Grumph]

Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence.

And add overconfidence to the mix - then you have the typical 2nd term Tory government. I've lived and voted in NZ long enough to remember several 2nd term Nat bouts of overconfidencs - usually resulting in selling assets to mates or jobs for the boys...
This current crop are no different - Key is just Muldoon with a smiling face.

[Ocean1]

And add overconfidence to the mix - then you have the typical 2nd term Tory government. I've lived and voted in NZ long enough to remember several 2nd term Nat bouts of overconfidencs - usually resulting in selling assets to mates or jobs for the boys...
This current crop are no different - Key is just Muldoon with a smiling face.

I was referring to what passes for the fourth estate nowadays. They seem on one hand to have abandoned any professional qualities of impartiality and accuracy they once valued, and yet aren't able to accept that anyone writing an opinion piece isn't actually bound by the same values.

As for Key/Muldoon, deserved or not Key has more breadth and more depth of support than piggy ever enjoyed. Or deserved.

[mashman]

I assume you mean that which causes such behaviour? Behaviour which can be observed anywhere people form groups? Behaviour that can be observed where there isn’t the vaguest hint of money to motivate it? So not a behaviour caused by money then.

So let’s have none of your bullshit about radical changes to “the system”, one which has demonstrably been responsible in your lifetime for the greatest advance in living standards humankind has ever known.

Yes. But most definitely a behaviour caused by money. I see you would not wish to contribute on the basis that you're just too awesome. What do you think you are going to lose by contributing your effort as we all will too? I find your lack of faith disturbing. An individual is much more than their perceived behaviour, especially that of one with an entitlement complex. And as it is only behaviour, it can change. The only way that behaviour will change is if there's is a perceived gain. Well that's your argument innit, we must gain else we won't do? You have written off every single member of New Zealand based on the flawed perception that people can't change, even you :laugh:. Do you class yourself as a patriot.

You just sit the fuck down and shut up. You're making giant assumptions at the very core of the entire argument and calling it done and dusted. Sounds awfully fuckin mypoic for someone with your levels of awesomeness. But hey. People are changing their minds. By all means write it off as a fad... but I'm not so sure this time.

[oldrider]

Key is just Muldoon with a smiling face.

Chalk and cheese ... Muldoon was as socialist as it gets he tried to control everything! :yes: Consequently he ran the country broke! :tugger: A real wanker! :laugh:

The new (1984) Labour government had to turn to right wing policies to save the country from going completely bankrupt! :shifty:

Strangely enough it took the left and right wing party supporters two elections to realise that they had actually changed sides! :nya:

[Ocean1]

Yes. But most definitely a behaviour caused by money. I see you would not wish to contribute on the basis that you're just too awesome. What do you think you are going to lose by contributing your effort as we all will too? I find your lack of faith disturbing. An individual is much more than their perceived behaviour, especially that of one with an entitlement complex. And as it is only behaviour, it can change. The only way that behaviour will change is if there's is a perceived gain. Well that's your argument innit, we must gain else we won't do? You have written off every single member of New Zealand based on the flawed perception that people can't change, even you :laugh:. Do you class yourself as a patriot.

You just sit the fuck down and shut up. You're making giant assumptions at the very core of the entire argument and calling it done and dusted. Sounds awfully fuckin mypoic for someone with your levels of awesomeness. But hey. People are changing their minds. By all means write it off as a fad... but I'm not so sure this time.

No assumptions required, you're simply wrong, as I've demonstrated repeatedly, you're just too wrapped up in your stupid, convoluted fantasy to admit it.

As for people changing their minds, you're correct, as is evidenced by polls over the last several years, they're sick and fucking tired of politicians promising to give their money away to people who are perfectly capable of earning it themselves.... but can't be fucked.

More power to 'em, you'd all be fucked without them.

[mashman]

No assumptions required, you're simply wrong, as I've demonstrated repeatedly, you're just too wrapped up in your stupid, convoluted fantasy to admit it.

As for people changing their minds, you're correct, as is evidenced by polls over the last several years, they're sick and fucking tired of politicians promising to give their money away to people who are perfectly capable of earning it themselves.... but can't be fucked.

More power to 'em, you'd all be fucked without them.

The irony is strong in this one. I have 100% faith and belief in my fellow man. You have demonstrated nothing but compartmentalisation based on a rather ironic helping of systemic confirmation bias.

What are you going to lose?

Surely you mean, we'd all be fucked without them?

[Ocean1]

The irony is strong in this one. I have 100% faith and belief in my fellow man. You have demonstrated nothing but compartmentalisation based on a rather ironic helping of systemic confirmation bias.

What are you going to lose?

Surely you mean, we'd all be fucked without them?

Wrong again. I've repeatedly shown you that living standards have improved dramatically for every sector on the planet, you simply ignore them because it doesn't fit your needs.

Me? Nothing. No bunch of fuckwit latter day hippies is ever going to have the wherewithal to take anything off me.

Nope, I speak as one who produces more than I use, one of the ones those who use more than they produce would be fucked without. All clear?

[carbonhed]

It's a crying shame Slater is out of the country I'd love to see him and Hager squaring off in a studio. Scrawny rodent versus bush pig.

Meanwhile Labour thinks it's been hacked... sort of...

Violated (http://bit.ly/1mSZAnX)

[carbonhed]

If Slater and Hager rode bikes what do you think they'd be?

Slater was easy... Harley's Fat Bob



http://carspics-db.com/data_images/gallery/01/harley-davidson-fat-bob/harley-davidson-fat-bob-03.jpg




Try as I might I just couldn't think of a bike for Hager... until I realised he'd be riding bitch of course.













http://memecrunch.com/image/51a8141dafa96f7b74000010.jpg?w=400

[MisterD]

Maybe it shouldn't be, but it"s rather startling that so many people comment on a book they haven't read.

I haven't read the whole book (I'll wait until I can download it from a file sharing site that doesn't benefit Krim Dotcom) but I have read the sections NH selected for the Harold to publish and if that's the most damning stuff he's got? What a beat-up.



It's just possible that the thing that pisses me off most about the whole affair is that some pf the parliamentary churnos say that none of the revelations are surprising, 'cause they already knew about the goings on. Well if they know what's happening in parliament and don't tell us, fire their arse and get someone who can do the fucking job.

It's not that "they know what's going on", it's that this is how all parties and all journos around parliament operate, Hager's just trying to paint one side's kettle black, while pretending the other side's pot is shiny and clean.




On second thoughts that may not be the thing that pisses me off most, it's wankers chundering on about "the beltway". Where do these shitheads think they live Washingto DC?

/RANT

It's not the only annoying Merkin phrase that's overused, have you paid your BDOTGNZA subs? If not, why not? I agree though, it's a shame that "Beltway" is replacing the much more eloquent "Thorndon Bubble".

[Woodman]

Write a letter to the paper (any paper) and compare what you wrote and what they actually write for you! ... Media is totally controlled! :brick:

Stupid reporters have to toe the line or go somewhere else! :yes: Like blogging whale oil and stuff like that! :whistle:

At least on the nett you can sort through the shit that "you" want or don't want to read! (probably not for much longer though!) :oi-grr:

The media being totally controlled comment intrigues me, so I have some questions if you don't mind cos I don't know the answers.

Who controls the media?

How is the media controlled? Government plants? e.g. are newspaper editors government secret agents? Does every article have to be sent to a government office for vetting?

Is it just a conspiracy theorist mantra?

Anything else???????

Not rocking your boat, but I hear this a lot and nobody has actually said how the information is controlled, and by who(whom) and why?

[mashman]

Wrong again. I've repeatedly shown you that living standards have improved dramatically for every sector on the planet, you simply ignore them because it doesn't fit your needs.

Me? Nothing. No bunch of fuckwit latter day hippies is ever going to have the wherewithal to take anything off me.

Nope, I speak as one who produces more than I use, one of the ones those who use more than they produce would be fucked without. All clear?

I'm not ignoring that at all. But that doesn't mean I'll accept that what we have is the best it can be. That means highlighting that the ugly still exists in a large numbers. They are statistically convenienced away. I do not accept that as a solution. Your system is a half arsed attempt at fostering cooperation.

No one is out to take anything off you :killingme. Paranoid little fucka aincha.

Once you've finished wiping yourself off, you might want to climb off that high horse and consider how many people support you. Without them you are nothing. Not tall poppying you, just stating a fact that if you have no employees then you have no super duper business. they are not their for your convenience. They are there to help you produce something that we may well all need. If you dropped dead tomorrow (no I don't wish that in the slightest), someone else would fill your shoes, and the world would turn. You class yourself as successful. Glad to see it only cost you your soul.

[mashman]

Who controls the media?

How is the media controlled? Government plants? e.g. are newspaper editors government secret agents? Does every article have to be sent to a government office for vetting?

Is it just a conspiracy theorist mantra?

Anything else???????

Not rocking your boat, but I hear this a lot and nobody has actually said how the information is controlled, and by who(whom) and why?

My take:

Whoever controls the money.

Because media costs to run and relies on certain freedoms. Remove the freedoms or the money and you have no media. Even better, pump it into "entertainment" and "sensationalism" and you're on to a winner. Editors etc... are smart men, if the govt can lean on you, then you lean back and take your chances, or roll over and likely get paid very handsomely for it.

No, the evidence is before your eyes on them thar media devices. If you class things as all being well, such as classing the Edward Snowden documents that displayed contempt for people and bare faced lies, gathering info on who's being targeted, and then consider that this has been taking place for centuries through certain families, then I'd say that it was more of a fact than a theory. Each to his own.

Lots of else. Lots and lots and lots of else.

They use money and intimidation. What's your limit when there's everything to lose?

As always the big question is who are "they"? How would knowing that information really change anything if "they" already control everything :laugh:.

[HenryDorsetCase]

I enjoyed this interview this morning.

I think if anyone is commenting on this topic, it would pay you to devote half an hour to listening to the man speak.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/20145975/nicky-hager-dirty-politics


Not that I expect many of you to do that. Rational discourse is very passe these days.

[Katman]

Who controls the media?


Rich jews.

[carbonhed]

Rich jews.

One mention of "rational discourse" and.... voila!

[oldrider]

Rich jews.

Zionist Jews ... there is a big difference! ... In the pyramid of power they occupy the top 1% and are practically untouchable, Calculating and clever!

[Woodman]

Answers pretty much as expected......Bollocks.

[mashman]

Answers pretty much as expected......Bollocks.

Bollocks as in bullshit, or bollocks as in oh shit?

[mashman]

It's a hackfest, yehaw (https://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/24736046/whale-oil-alleges-hacking-funded-by-dotcom/).. the speed and ease that these guys are getting hold of communications could be moderately concerning. That or simply a show for you good folks to marvel at.

[oldrider]

The media being totally controlled comment intrigues me, so I have some questions if you don't mind cos I don't know the answers.

Who controls the media?

Not rocking your boat, but I hear this a lot and nobody has actually said how the information is controlled, and by who(whom) and why?

Fair enough! Good questions. Use Google it for starters.

Start looking for evidence of controlling influences and keep on following these leads where ever you want to go and you will find your own answers!

Looky here: https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=USA+Jewish+lobby&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&channel=np&source=hp&gfe_rd=cr&ei=gF3wU8ecMsqN8QeprID4DQ ... Interesting stuff that you may, or may not be aware of.

There is no end, these people are for real and will blow your mind just how influencial they are, don't under estimate them it's all happening as we speak!

The evidence is there all you have to do is look and judge for yourself uninfluenced by anyone else ... or stick your head in a box and mumble conspiracy!

Media control links ... try these for size: https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=Zionist+control+over+world+media&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&channel=np&source=hp&gfe_rd=cr&ei=OGLwU8KrNsmN8QeL1oHICg

Hope that there is balance, for and against, make up your own mind.

[MisterD]

But the point is that blogs are breaking that media gatekeepering. Anyone can choose the read what they want, from sources that are (novelty alert!) honest about their bias.

Nobody ever read whaleoil or Bradbury or Farrar or the Labour Staffers pretending to be ordinary lefty citizens at the Standard and thought it was the writing of some neutral journo.

There are, believe it or not, people who think John Campbell is not a raving lefty...strange but true.

[yokel]

But the point is that blogs are breaking that media gatekeepering. Anyone can choose the read what they want, from sources that are (novelty alert!) honest about their bias.

Nobody ever read whaleoil or Bradbury or Farrar or the Labour Staffers pretending to be ordinary lefty citizens at the Standard and thought it was the writing of some neutral journo.

There are, believe it or not, people who think John Campbell is not a raving lefty...strange but true.

Cant stand John Campbell, he's a fucking cock sucker

[SPman]

Which is why your opinion isn't worth much, you assume the party stance well before checking to see if the facts support it.My opinion is worth as much as yours, not that I particularly give a shit. I don't assume any "party" stance - it just so happens my beliefs and views seem to coincide more with people who do actually care about their fellow man than those who care mainly about themselves - generally.
Is Hager a conspiracy theorists - well - Rob Gilchrist, the undercover cop Hager "outed" some years back and caused much strife to.....
It may come as a surprise but I have the utmost respect for Mr Hager, He doesn’t write ’baseless allegations’, ’what-ifs and fanciful speculation’.....You see, Mr Hager is very good at what he does. He is not just a journalist who working to a deadline just makes stuff up to add to the word count. He researches the hell out of the subjects in his articles and books. He talks to the right people, asks the right questions and goes over every little detail he has available to him with a nit comb.
Mr Hager is also not a ‘conspiracy theorist‘, he’s just extremely good at finding conspiracies.”

[Paul in NZ]

If Slater or Hager turned up at your door selling chocolates you would tend to take one look at them and think ‘what a fuckin nutter’ and shut the door. Yet we are happy to discuss their ‘opinions’ as if they are worthy of our time.

Organisations attract criticisms and people inside organisations do daft stuff or at best stuff that can be interpreted as nasty. I just wouldn’t trust either them OR the political parties to be truthful but at least political parties are organisations and have some kind of responsibility or a system of checks and balances. Individuals like Slater (who now appears to be mad) and Hager are capable of convincing themselves that black is white and there is no one to rein them in. Bonkers….

[sil3nt]

Worth a listen: http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/20146025

[mada]

Worth a listen: http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/20146025

Poor DonKey.

He's truly fucked now. :whistle:

[mada]

Blind Nat followers be like this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D6bx8j4d-Y

:clap::clap::clap:

[Naki Rat]

Worth a listen: http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/20146025
No the usual 'smile and walk away' persona we are used to from Jonkey. In that interview he comes across a like a cornered rat!
Innocent? - Not!

[oldrider]

Poor DonKey.

He's truly fucked now. :whistle:


Blind Nat followers be like this

:clap::clap::clap:

The anguished screams of the desperate ... must suck to be you huh! :whistle: . All this sick lefty crap has talked me into casting my vote to Key! :2thumbsup

[HenryDorsetCase]

I am sick of what amounts to a sideshow. Although I do find it easy to believe ill of National and their lumpy minions.

The only party actually talking about policy is the Greens. You may not like their policy (upping the top tax rate and spending it on poor kids) but I foresee that a lot of voters, disgusted by these shenanagins, will cast their votes elsewhere.

and Key sounded like an idiot this morning on Morning REport. Yay Guyon. Stick it up them.

[MisterD]

All this sick lefty crap has talked me into casting my vote to Key! :2thumbsup

I doubt you'll be the only one, but as far as I can see the whole thing just seems to be confirming what people thought anyway, rather than shifting votes from National to the left. Might make it harder for NZ First and the Conservatives as they scrap for 5 of the 6% that might vote for either of them, and Labour are probably cursing the fact that they've got no air-time for anything.

Questions for y'all:

1) Does anyone *not* think that Kim Dotcom and his desperation not to be deported, are at the bottom of the hacking?
2) Does anyone *not* think that Labour were tipped off, resulting in their "Vote Positive" campaign?

[mada]

The anguished screams of the desperate ... must suck to be you huh! :whistle: . All this sick lefty crap has talked me into casting my vote to Key! :2thumbsup

Good logic there! :whistle:

[mada]

I doubt you'll be the only one, but as far as I can see the whole thing just seems to be confirming what people thought anyway, rather than shifting votes from National to the left. Might make it harder for NZ First and the Conservatives as they scrap for 5 of the 6% that might vote for either of them, and Labour are probably cursing the fact that they've got no air-time for anything.

Questions for y'all:

1) Does anyone *not* think that Kim Dotcom and his desperation not to be deported, are at the bottom of the hacking?
2) Does anyone *not* think that Labour were tipped off, resulting in their "Vote Positive" campaign?

People will not rush to vote for a PM when he acts like Helen in her third term and Muldoon. National needed to get more votes in order to secure a bigger majority and persuade Left Voters not to bother turning up. Instead they've incited the Left to vote.

Going to be a nice close election with all the Nats shitting their pants.

[MisterD]

The only party actually talking about policy is the Greens.

They're not, but they're the only party that our media gatekeepers deem it neccessary to tell the sheeple about.

[Oscar]

Good logic there! :whistle:



Poor DonKey.

He's truly fucked now. :whistle:


Blind Nat followers be like this


:clap::clap::clap:


Oh yeah, you're the voice of logic...

The concept of logical form is central to logic, it being held that the validity of an argument is determined by its logical form, not by its content.

[mashman]

Worth a listen: http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/20146025

It was... that fucker should do standup.

[MisterD]

Instead they've incited the Left to vote.

Unless it rains on election day.


Going to be a nice close election with all the Nats shitting their pants.

It was always going to be a close election, and getting the vote out for National was always going to be their biggest problem. I think this is certainly a polarising issue, but I don't see it as a massive vote shifter.

That poll the other night for instance, what was it, 28% thinking worse of the Nats becuase of the book? That's about the sum of the recent Labour + Green pol results isn't it?

[mada]

Unless it rains on election day.



It was always going to be a close election, and getting the vote out for National was always going to be their biggest problem. I think this is certainly a polarising issue, but I don't see it as a massive vote shifter.

That poll the other night for instance, what was it, 28% thinking worse of the Nats becuase of the book? That's about the sum of the recent Labour + Green pol results isn't it?

As I've said before if you're going to follow the polls your going to end up butt hurt after the election. Polls in 2011 had massive majority for Nats & potential to govern alone, the result on the day was a minority govt that only got a couple thousand more votes than 2008. The Nats can only lose votes now - either by non-voter turn out or to other parties. You need to factor in that 20% of pollsters remain undecided (shit I still haven't decided which party I will vote for yet), so Nationals "majority" in fact ends up being about 40% of all polled people.

The real problem for the Nats is the longer this drags on the more holes they dig themselves into with denials and contradictions - more media attention and focus on it. While the Left can go about touring up and down the country and meeting voters. Add in the potential for an investigation by Parliament or Police and the government is truly fucked.

How well did Helen survive after the issues with Winston and Shane Jones? They were the nails in the coffin.

[buggerit]

People will not rush to vote for a PM when he acts like Helen in her third term and Muldoon. National needed to get more votes in order to secure a bigger majority and persuade Left Voters not to bother turning up. Instead they've incited the Left to vote.

Going to be a nice close election with all the Nats shitting their pants.

Interesting times, a shame most papers are owned by big business with interests other than journalism that seem to filter their content, but then again, there would be no place for bloggers if that wasnt the case;).

[MisterD]

As I've said before if you're going to follow the polls your going to end up butt hurt after the election.

Well yes, there's never been a mainstream media poll that predicted ACT to win Epsom...

[HenryDorsetCase]

People will not rush to vote for a PM when he acts like Helen in her third term and Muldoon. National needed to get more votes in order to secure a bigger majority and persuade Left Voters not to bother turning up. Instead they've incited the Left to vote.

Going to be a nice close election with all the Nats shitting their pants.

trenchant, pithy and I suspect accurate.

All of a sudden its gotten interesting.

[mada]

Well yes, there's never been a mainstream media poll that predicted ACT to win Epsom...

I see the recent one didn't either with most "Nat" voters saying they would vote for Paul, and only after being told by the surveyors that Key recommended voting for ACT candidate did they switch.

Majority of Nats will vote for ACT.

The prob for National is that Lefties might this time vote for Paul and combined with those who don't know or don't care and vote Paul = give him a majority!

[HenryDorsetCase]

I doubt you'll be the only one, but as far as I can see the whole thing just seems to be confirming what people thought anyway, rather than shifting votes from National to the left. Might make it harder for NZ First and the Conservatives as they scrap for 5 of the 6% that might vote for either of them, and Labour are probably cursing the fact that they've got no air-time for anything.

Questions for y'all:

1) Does anyone *not* think that Kim Dotcom and his desperation not to be deported, are at the bottom of the hacking?
2) Does anyone *not* think that Labour were tipped off, resulting in their "Vote Positive" campaign?

1. Possible, perhaps even likely. Provable: I hope that his reputation as ze computer hacker means it will never be proved. Might have been one of his minons though.
2. The secret of comedy is timing. I think possibly yes to this.


I found out last weekend that Labour are not members of the international union of Social Democratic political parties any more. So apart from less money and more inept management, how are they different from National again?

[mada]

Who's keen to play a drinking game?

If you're left wing - Every time John Key calls Hager a "Leftwing conspiracist" = Drink
If you're right wing - Every time John Key says "I don't know" "it doesn't matter" = Drink

See who has to drink more! :drinkup:

[mada]

damn should have made it "at the end of the day" and "people can see".


Guyon: This is the moral leadership you seem to be presiding over here.
Key: Well what i'm saying to you is, in the end, yeah, look, at the end of the day people do look at things and that's just the way it works. Nah, I'm not going to ask Judith Collins if she leaked info.
Guyon: She's admitted that she did pass on info. So why don't you ask her?
Key: Because at the end of the day we're 5 weeks out from an election. People can see that Nicky Hager's made a whole lot of things up in his book.
Guyon: Well, I'm talking about one that can be backed up. You're not going to get away with that because this is the one that can be backed up because the Justice Minister of New Zealand has conceded that she did pass on the name of a public servant. That resulted in him getting some pretty severe death threats and you think that's OK?
Key: And people can see...
Guyon: Is it OK?
Key: And people can see...
Guyon: Is it OK? Yes or no. Is it OK?
Key: And people can see that this...
Guyon: Is it OK?
Key: And people can see...
Guyon: Is it OK that Judith Collins did that? Yes or no?
Key: And people can see that this is a smear campaign by Nicky Hager...
Guyon: I'm not asking you for a critique about Nicky Hager's motivation. I'm asking you about that something that is publicly in the arena. Judith Collins said, "I passed on the name of this public servant" and we know what happened after that. I'm asking you a simple question - was that appropriate?
Key: At the end of the day I don't know the context about what happened here or...
Guyon: You know the context here, Prime Minister. PLEASE answer the question.
Key: I don't know the details behind all of that...

[MisterD]

So apart from less money and more inept management, how are they different from National again?

From the point of view of an ACT voter? Not very, but they do at least select their candidates at electorate level and their caucus votes for their leader, rather than having head office factions and the Unions carve it up amongst themselves.

I'd also say they have a pretty good record over the last two administration of saying what they'd do in their manifesto and then doing it. All those scare stories about selling Kiwibank or whatever have proven to be nonsense.

[HenryDorsetCase]

I'd also say they have a pretty good record over the last two administration of saying what they'd do in their manifesto and then doing it. All those scare stories about selling Kiwibank or whatever have proven to be nonsense.

Have you looked at any numbers for Kiwibank? Its not only cash strapped for expansion but it loses its entire identity if sold to one of the other big brands. It would be the next National Bank (RIP). Same colour even.

TSB Bank FTW.

[Oscar]

Have you looked at any numbers for Kiwibank? Its not only cash strapped for expansion but it loses its entire identity if sold to one of the other big brands. It would be the next National Bank (RIP). Same colour even.

TSB Bank FTW.

National Bank was always foreign owned.

[HenryDorsetCase]

National Bank was always foreign owned.

I know. That was not my point. They had very good customer service and a well known brand and loyal customers. They were bought by ANZ and that identity and a lot of the goodwill was lost when the brand disappeared.

[oldrider]

Who's keen to play a drinking game?

If you're left wing - Every time John Key calls Hager a "Leftwing conspiracist" = Drink
If you're right wing - Every time John Key says "I don't know" "it doesn't matter" = Drink

See who has to drink more! :drinkup:

You really are in your element right now aren't you, it is this rather than motorcycles that braught you to KB! :whocares:

[mada]

Will people still vote National if John Key resigns?:rolleyes:

Right wing commentator Matthew Hooten (named in the Dirty Politics book as one of the key players) has come out today and said he is fucked based on the interview this morning.

[mada]

You really are in your element right now aren't you, it is this rather than motorcycles that braught you to KB! :whocares:

Actually the good advice on the other parts of the forum regarding tips for riding, gear, etc was what bought me here.

Who cares you say? Why spend time following and responding then... :whistle:

[Naki Rat]

Will people still vote National if John Key resigns?:rolleyes:

Right wing commentator Matthew Hooten (named in the Dirty Politics book as one of the key players) has come out today and said he is fucked based on the interview this morning.
This morning's Nat Radio political commentators Matthew Hooton & Mike Williams here (http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/20146062). Interesting listening.

[puddytat]

They're not, but they're the only party that our media gatekeepers deem it neccessary to tell the sheeple about.

Nah completely wrong...they are the only party consistently releasing good policy & the ONLY party that has never been instigated in dodgyness.

Cameron Slater is thick enough but do you honestly think that everything that KDC been through with illegal searches & surveillance that he'd be that fucking stupud to go anywhere near hacking anything? When your a sleaze ball like Slater, there'd be plenty of folks who'd want him brought down & quite a few who'd like to see him against the wall with his masters.

[MisterD]

Nah completely wrong...they are the only party consistently releasing good policy & the ONLY party that has never been instigated in dodgyness.

Apart from that bloke with the tape recorder at the Nats' party the other year...



Cameron Slater is thick enough but do you honestly think that everything that KDC been through with illegal searches & surveillance that he'd be that fucking stupud to go anywhere near hacking anything? When your a sleaze ball like Slater, there'd be plenty of folks who'd want him brought down & quite a few who'd like to see him against the wall with his masters.

I think he's an ego bigger than his waistline and he's desperate and lashing out. It's that or swap his black onesie for an orange one.

[imdying]

All of a sudden its gotten interesting.I think you might be overstating things a little :laugh:

[oldrider]

Actually the good advice on the other parts of the forum regarding tips for riding, gear, etc was what bought me here.

Who cares you say? Why spend time following and responding then... :whistle:

Because I have been a licence holding motorcyclist and owner of motorcycles almost continually for 60 years and now that I sold my last bike I just can't quite let go!

That's why I stay here and cackle with like minded folk and exchange a few points of view to stay in a familiar mix :ride: .... I think you are a party plant!

After the election fever dies off . so will you! :yawn: Skyryder was a bit like that but at least he was a good guy! :first:

[mada]

Because I have been a licence holding motorcyclist and owner of motorcycles almost continually for 60 years and now that I sold my last bike I just can't quite let go!

That's why I stay here and cackle with like minded folk and exchange a few points of view to stay in a familiar mix :ride: .... I think you are a party plant!

After the election fever dies off . so will you! :yawn: Skyryder was a bit like that but at least he was a good guy! :first:

Nah... I'lll prob be bitching about Cunliffe and the govt after election :Punk:

Meanwhile, looks like our mate Whale was hunting down fellow bikers... nice of him..

http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2011/11/information-please/

[MisterD]

Meanwhile, looks like our mate Whale was hunting down fellow bikers... nice of him..

Haven't we had the "person on a motorbike" is not the neccessarily the same thing as "biker" argument elsewhere on these forums?

[oldrider]

The only real interest or ferver in this whole Niki Hager thing is media driven because without it the whole election saga was cut and dried and boring! :sleep:

Without this crap they would have nothing to rave on about ... as it is there is still nothing but thats what they like to rave about ... nothing! :killingme

[Oscar]

The only real interest or ferver in this whole Niki Hager thing is media driven because without it the whole election saga was cut and dried and boring! :sleep:

Without this crap they would have nothing to rave on about ... as it is there is still nothing but thats what they like to rave about ... nothing! :killingme

I will be very interested to see how this affects the polls.
Personally I think Key should have moved by now to ditch Collins and his Chief of Staff.

[HenryDorsetCase]

I will be very interested to see how this affects the polls.
Personally I think Key should have moved by now to ditch Collins and his Chief of Staff.

cleft stick though

If he does that he tacitly acknowledges that the Hager material is true, and that these lumpy minions did it wrong.

Collins is a pretty powerful figure in the Orklind branch of Ze Party too I think i.e. she has a powerbase that sacking her would alienate.

good times!

[SPman]

You really are in your element right now aren't you, it is this rather than motorcycles that braught you to KB! :whocares:Drinking games - seems a good old fashioned practice for motorcyclists to me.......

[Maha]

In most cases, smoke does actually equal fire, unless you're a Tauporian where, the very sight of smoke probably means the FBI or CIA are sending smoke signals to alert the masses of impending doom.

[buggerit]

The only real interest or ferver in this whole Niki Hager thing is media driven because without it the whole election saga was cut and dried and boring! :sleep:

Without this crap they would have nothing to rave on about ... as it is there is still nothing but thats what they like to rave about ... nothing! :killingme

ah well, I spose it would be a boring world if everyone had the same values.

[imdying]

Nah... I'lll prob be bitching about Cunliffe and the govt after election :Punk:The government maybe, but I expect Labour will kick Cunliffe after it.

[Naki Rat]

cleft stick though

If he does that he tacitly acknowledges that the Hager material is true, and that these lumpy minions did it wrong.

Collins is a pretty powerful figure in the Orklind branch of Ze Party too I think i.e. she has a powerbase that sacking her would alienate.

good times!Or has she got some dirt that has the potential to bury Jonkey?

[Swoop]

I'lll prob be bitching about Cunliffe and the govt after election
Doubt it.
He isn't going to be PM so that means he will be rolled.
Sadly that means there will be another pushed forward from the ranks of the union movement to "lead the great unwashed".

[HenryDorsetCase]

Doubt it.
He isn't going to be PM so that means he will be rolled.
Sadly that means there will be another pushed forward from the ranks of the union movement to "lead the great unwashed".

Grant Robertson. He'd be great I reckon.

[Yow Ling]

Grant Robertson. He'd be great in bed I reckon.

fixed for you

[blue rider]

Who's keen to play a drinking game?

If you're left wing - Every time John Key calls Hager a "Leftwing conspiracist" = Drink
If you're right wing - Every time John Key says "I don't know" "it doesn't matter" = Drink

See who has to drink more! :drinkup:

prost

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQLJ886Wt23mrDhhWZMYV7wUlDRMxJsW p1unoerjMskExQZU9Wuzw

[Ocean1]

I'd trust what Hager says over what Key says, any time!


Which is why your opinion isn't worth much, you assume the party stance well before checking to see if the facts support it.


My opinion is worth as much as yours, not that I particularly give a shit. I don't assume any "party" stance - it just so happens my beliefs and views seem to coincide more with people who do actually care about their fellow man than those who care mainly about themselves - generally.
Is Hager a conspiracy theorists - well - Rob Gilchrist, the undercover cop Hager "outed" some years back and caused much strife to.....

Nah, your opinions are without fail informed by your socialist ideals, as are your references. They're probably of some comfort to another socialist, and I doubt you have a problem with being described as such, and that's just dandy, but you don't get to claim an untainted viewpoint from such an extreme position.

As for mate Hager, like you he claims to be something he's not: unbiased. The biggest joke is his insistence on being called a "reporter". He's a political agitator, a radical socialist sort of freelance politician who'd really rather his audience sorta ignored that bit and pretended his actions were those of a reasonable, impartial member of the fourth estate. Nothing could be further from the truth.

And as for Key, you might not like him, but that's almost a ringing endorsement coming from one so far to the left. But if history indicates he's contributed anything beyond the general duties his roll requires it's the generally accepted truth that he walks his talk. Which is a damned sight more than most of his predecessors have done, and maybe, just maybe that's why he rates so highly.

As for caring about your fellow man, you make the mistake typical of the left in claiming that anyone of a different persuasion cares less than you do.

[blue rider]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsi51AajbFg#t=24

http://blog.mdna.com/Portals/52776/images//beer-resized-600.jpg

proscht

[oldrider]

Yeah but it's the media that desperately keep on trying to drag something out of nothing ... they must be really pissed about that! :yawn: Boring! Boring! Boring! :wait:

[mada]

video of John Key fucking lying through his teeth


proscht

Damn, going to need a couple of crates and kegs based on that vid!

http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1287226205/544/4241544.jpg


http://i2.cdnds.net/11/32/550w_odd_medvedev_girls_anti_beer_drive.jpg

:drinknsin

[blue rider]

should be just enough http://www.munichbeergardens.com/images/beer/thumb/Waldwirtschaft_Grosshesselohe_007.jpg/600px-Waldwirtschaft_Grosshesselohe_007.jpg

and a bit of roast for sustenance cause we be drinking some at the end of the day :drinknsin

http://www.catering-guide-stuttgart.de/uploads/pics/ochsenbraterei-trautwein-gallery-1.jpg

[Winston001]

Nah, your opinions are without fail informed by your socialist ideals, as are your references. They're probably of some comfort to another socialist, and I doubt you have a problem with being described as such, and that's just dandy, but you don't get to claim an untainted viewpoint from such an extreme position.


As for caring about your fellow man, you make the mistake typical of the left in claiming that anyone of a different persuasion cares less than you do.

Bingo. Commonsense. But its sadly lacking on all sides of our political discourse.

This afternoon on Nat Radio, Rob Salmond who advises the Labour Party made exactly your point. He said that people from the poltical left and from the right are generally decent well-motivated citizens with different perspectives. Both sides want the best society for us all. What frustrates him is the shallow good vs bad and the personal abuse politics descends into in New Zealand.

Exactly. Even Hone Harawira has an honest point of view.

[oldrider]

Bingo. Commonsense. But its sadly lacking on all sides of our political discourse.

This afternoon on Nat Radio, Rob Salmond who advises the Labour Party made exactly your point. He said that people from the poltical left and from the right are generally decent well-motivated citizens with different perspectives. Both sides want the best society for us all. What frustrates him is the shallow good vs bad and the personal abuse politics descends into in New Zealand.

Exactly. Even Hone Harawira has an honest point of view.

Correct but Hone openly proved he can be bought so that makes him forever suspect no matter how much nice and sensible he projects!

All that is in question with Hone now ... is "price"! :shifty:

[HenryDorsetCase]

fixed for you

either's good with me :2thumbsup:. I think he is in a committed relationship though. How about you though? Wanna get it on?

[mashman]

Or has she got some dirt that has the potential to bury Jonkey?

Nah, KDC's got dat :shifty:

[jim.cox]

Essential reading me thinks for all the doubters and cynics that have taken part in this thread, and indeed essential reading for all NZers who need to understand it beyond the the highly politicized and polarised debate it's become...

Cri du cœur (http://pundit.co.nz/content/cri-du-c%C5%93ur) by Andrew Geddis

[puddytat]

Good link that Jim....

[oldrider]

Essential reading me thinks for all the doubters and cynics that have taken part in this thread, and indeed essential reading for all NZers who need to understand it beyond the the highly politicized and polarised debate it's become...

Cri du cœur (http://pundit.co.nz/content/cri-du-c%C5%93ur) by Andrew Geddis

Isn't that all just a bit like talking through a keyboard on sites like KB? ... Real world anybody? ... he said I said we said ... what a crock of shite! :facepalm:

[Winston001]

Damn you Jim, was just about to post that. :D

It's an excellent and thoughtful commentary on Hagar's book, sufficient to cause me to adjust my perspective.

A valid response IMHO is that the Left politicians and bloggers are equally nasty and vindictive. I joined the Standard a while ago and posted a mild criticism to stimulate discussion - only to find my comment deleted. I belong to quite a few forums around the world and have never ever had anything deleted. Silly me but I was offended.

By comparison I also posted some critical comments on Whaleoil and they remained untouched. Not a Whale fan.

[puddytat]

Isn't that all just a bit like talking through a keyboard on sites like KB? ... Real world anybody? ... he said I said we said ... what a crock of shite! :facepalm:

How about this then?
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/08/18/keys-ducking-for-cover-utterly-unbelievable/

[Winston001]

John Key and Guyon Espiner interview 7:20am



damn should have made it "at the end of the day" and "people can see".

Funny old world. Two people listen to that interview and come away with radically different impressions. I though John Key made Espiner seem irrelevant. You (and many others) think Key failed.

Fair enough.

There are only four politicians whom I can remember getting the best of astute media interviewers.

Winston Peters (a wally) but sharp as a tack and able to rephrase questions to his own agenda.

Helen Clark who was an even sharper tack and always better than the interviewer.

Judith Collins who is the only polly to silence Mary Wilson. Cool and utterly on point.

John Key: the guy cannot be flustered. No hesitation, no stammering, no change of sentence construction despite interruptions. Calm and focused.


And David Lange - he was as good as Key, even a bit better because he was unconscionably funny too.

[Paul in NZ]

John Key and co unfortunately live in a social media world... Is Cameron Slater any worse than Murdoch etc? Maybe? But its a fact that the internet and social media has given those with a nasty negative side the ability to turn a phrase to drive their bile deeper and further than ever... Kiwibiker isnt any different... The cruel and negative jibe gets the laugh and approval.. Given what it can be like here why is anyone amazed its that bad in the political world?

Fact is - Slater and Hager and their ilk are unelectable. They are really unappealing to the camera and come across poorly on TV. Sadly they both believe they are smarter and 'better' than the sheeple and everything would just go so much better if THEY were running things... It wouldn't... The whole stinking pile of people who seek to influence suck...

[R650R]

Well its getting juicey now.... http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11310819

The question I want answered is how did slater become so chummy with this 'ex' prostitute (who still seems very connected to industry friends).
I doubt anyone in that industry would be so ready to expose secrets via such a controversial blogger without some deeper connection... we can only wonder...
If a club started dishing dirt on its hiugh profile members it would be a bad business decision where privacy is a selling point.

People are right in both sides are prob doing this all the time, except just like Nixon they've been dumb enough to keep a record of the antics. Think there's more to come on this saga...

[Katman]

A valid response IMHO is that the Left politicians and bloggers are equally nasty and vindictive.

Are you including the Green Party in that observation?

I would be surprised if the Greens conducted themselves in anything like the manner that the two major parties do. The worst I can think of off-hand was a Green candidate describing Judith Collins as 'Muldoon in make-up'.

I thought it was a rather amusing comparison but the candidate was still censured by their party for the statement.

[Woodman]

Are you including the Green Party in that observation?

I would be surprised if the Greens conducted themselves in anything like the manner that the two major parties do. The worst I can think of off-hand was a Green candidate describing Judith Collins as 'Muldoon in make-up'.

I thought it was a rather amusing comparison but the candidate was still censured by their party for the statement.


A bloody good reason to not vote for the Greens. They got no fight in them.

Just imagine them running a country:weird:. Good lobby group and thats about it.

[SPman]

As for caring about your fellow man, you make the mistake typical of the left in claiming that anyone of a different persuasion cares less than you do.

Not at all - there used to be a tradition of caring for your fellow man among many conservative supporters - there undoubtedly still is - but it's become drowned out in a wave of... ideological extremism? that seems to cast aside the welfare of the general population in favour of vested interest groups. This is happening to both major parties - it's not an exclusively right thing - the left are becoming more authoritarian right as well - witness UK's "new labour" - more right wing than the old tory party, and the US Democrats - more right than the old republican party.
Party politics could be seen to be a toxic miasma hanging over most "political" actions and beliefs.

[scott411]

Are you including the Green Party in that observation?

I would be surprised if the Greens conducted themselves in anything like the manner that the two major parties do. The worst I can think of off-hand was a Green candidate describing Judith Collins as 'Muldoon in make-up'.

I thought it was a rather amusing comparison but the candidate was still censured by their party for the statement.

They admitted last election their supporters were burning and defacing election signs, would not be a big leap to see them doing this as well,

[Katman]

They admitted last election their supporters were burning and defacing election signs, would not be a big leap to see them doing this as well,

If they condoned or endorsed the actions of their supporters in burning and defacing those election signs you might have a point Scott.

Admitting and endorsing are two totally different things though.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11301417

[Yow Ling]

either's good with me :2thumbsup:. I think he is in a committed relationship though. How about you though? Wanna get it on?

Are you going to leave your Bhurka on ?

[MisterD]

Admitting and endorsing are two totally different things though.

Funny we never see anything like this from them, then. Plausible deniability and all that...

https://www.facebook.com/davidseymourACT/posts/754380331293384

[oldrider]

Not at all - there used to be a tradition of caring for your fellow man among many conservative supporters - there undoubtedly still is - but it's become drowned out in a wave of... ideological extremism? that seems to cast aside the welfare of the general population in favour of vested interest groups. This is happening to both major parties - it's not an exclusively right thing - the left are becoming more authoritarian right as well - witness UK's "new labour" - more right wing than the old tory party, and the US Democrats - more right than the old republican party.
Party politics could be seen to be a toxic miasma hanging over most "political" actions and beliefs.

There used to be a tradition ... absolutely correct ... there used to be!

In NZ Rob Muldoon led the charge to the opposite side of the spectrum and since that time the political mix and match has gradually gone burserk!

There is no tradition any more and voters are beginning to realise this!

NZ politicians loyalties are now largely interchangeable! (flexible?)

The final outcome of any MMP election is never obvious until the parties and politicians with the most ticks of approval form an alliance to govern!

Pre election promises to constituents become meaningless as they trade agreements and loyalties with each other in order to form power groups!

When majority power groups are forming a government the last thing on their mind would be traditional allegiances with their electorates.

They are too busy building allegiances and loyalties within the new ruling alliance to be held back by traditional loyalties to voters, well for three more years anyway!

The outcome of all of this is what Hager et al are now calling "dirty politics"! .... Well hello, welcome to MMP! :whistle:

[Katman]

Funny we never see anything like this from them, then. Plausible deniability and all that...


What, are you upset that the Greens haven't posted a statement on Facebook?

Is that fact that they haven't, supposed to confirm some sort of admission of guilt?

[MisterD]

What, are you upset that the Greens haven't posted a statement on Facebook?

Is that fact that they haven't, supposed to confirm some sort of admission of guilt?

That they've made no attempt to influence their supporters on that front? Yep. Plus when you get the leader's Brother-in-law glorifying the defacement of National billboards and add it to the usual Green sanctimonious hypocrisy...

[Katman]

That they've made no attempt to influence their supporters on that front? Yep. Plus when you get the leader's Brother-in-law glorifying the defacement of National billboards and add it to the usual Green sanctimonious hypocrisy...

Dude, defacing billboards has been occurring since before the Green party even existed.

To suggest that political parties have the ability to police the actions of their supporters is rather naive.

[Oscar]

Dude, defacing billboards has been occurring since before the Green party even existed.

To suggest that political parties have the ability to police the actions of their supporters is rather naive.

+1 I was doing it in 1978.

[MisterD]

To suggest that political parties have the ability to police the actions of their supporters is rather naive.

There's a vast gulf between "policing the actions" of supporters and attempting to show a bit of leadership, which they seem incredibly disinclined to try.

[mada]

So how do we all stand on Judith Collins as a Minister of the Crown (now of Justice, Acc etc) leaking a public servants name and details such as phone numbers to Whale Oil who then published an attack rant on the person (that was false) that resulted in that person receiving death threats?

How often does that occur?

[mada]

There's a vast gulf between "policing the actions" of supporters and attempting to show a bit of leadership, which they seem incredibly disinclined to try.

How about policing the actions of your own Ministers? :yawn: :brick:

[Paul in NZ]

Well its getting juicey now.... http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11310819

The question I want answered is how did slater become so chummy with this 'ex' prostitute (who still seems very connected to industry friends)...

Because hes a sleazy scumbag who has zero scruples and is most likely suffering from a mental illness...


People are right in both sides are prob doing this all the time, except just like Nixon they've been dumb enough to keep a record of the antics. Think there's more to come on this saga...

Hes only on ONE side - his own... He would sell his mates for a dollar if it got him internet approval...

[mashman]

Not at all - there used to be a tradition of caring for your fellow man among many conservative supporters - there undoubtedly still is - but it's become drowned out in a wave of... ideological extremism? that seems to cast aside the welfare of the general population in favour of vested interest groups. This is happening to both major parties - it's not an exclusively right thing - the left are becoming more authoritarian right as well - witness UK's "new labour" - more right wing than the old tory party, and the US Democrats - more right than the old republican party.
Party politics could be seen to be a toxic miasma hanging over most "political" actions and beliefs.

The tradition used to be, what does the economy need to do in order to cater for its people... where these days its, what do the people need in order to cater for the economy. Putting the cart before the horse and then wondering in bemusement why the cart is rolling into the distance and we never seem to catch up.

[mashman]

There's a vast gulf between "policing the actions" of supporters and attempting to show a bit of leadership, which they seem incredibly disinclined to try.

Not everyone needs to be led, so I will assume that the greens are letting people make their own minds up based on the policy provided as to whether to vote green or not... and not resort to the bribery tactics of left and right to curry favour with their supporters etc.... By extension I would imagine that a green voter doesn't want to be led, but represented.

I can see why you don't vote green.

[MisterD]

and not resort to the bribery tactics of left and right to curry favour with their supporters etc

Bribery tactics? Like, say, an envy tax on "high earners" to be redistributed to "poor" people?


I can see why you don't vote green.

Yeah, I have a brain, so I understand that while "poverty" is defined as a proportion of the median income, we'll never get rid of it unless we turn this country into a Cambodian-style paradise.

[mashman]

Bribery tactics? Like, say, an envy tax on "high earners" to be redistributed to "poor" people?

Yeah, I have a brain, so I understand that while "poverty" is defined as a proportion of the median income, we'll never get rid of it unless we turn this country into a Cambodian-style paradise.

:rofl@envy... or indeed a tax cut to redistribute the wealth to the "rich" and away from the "poor".

Liar... thought you said you had a brain. We'll never get rid of this where people are seen as revenue generators.

[bluninja]

Bribery tactics? Like, say, an envy tax on "high earners" to be redistributed to "poor" people?



Yeah, I have a brain, so I understand that while "poverty" is defined as a proportion of the median income, we'll never get rid of it unless we turn this country into a Cambodian-style paradise.

So the greens want to increase the tax threshold on anything over $140k to 40%? Wouldn't say it was envy....so after someone reaches $70k they pay 33% on everything and then it jumps 7% more for all the rest. So somebody on $200k would pay a total of $61120 in tax, working out at a total of just over 30% tax on the whole amount, less than a third. Seems reasonable to me. Funnily the conservatives are proposing a tax free threshold so the low income don't pay tax....rather than everyone pays tax, and then you send it back to them in the form of tax credits. What a crazy idea huh?

[MisterD]

Funnily the conservatives are proposing a tax free threshold so the low income don't pay tax....rather than everyone pays tax, and then you send it back to them in the form of tax credits. What a crazy idea huh?

It's their one sensible policy, no tax until you've earnt enough to live on, across the board. It's worked fine in the UK since forever, at least until Gordon Brown invented tax credits as a way of trying to hook the middle class into labour-voting government dependency (and was then gleefully copied by Cullen).

What a great idea, give the most expert organisation at taking money away from people, the job of giving it back and wonder why it's a complete cost-ridden farce. :facepalm:

[MisterD]

:rofl@envy... or indeed a tax cut to redistribute the wealth to the "rich" and away from the "poor".

:brick::brick:

Tax cuts are not giving people money. It's not the government's money, it's theirs.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Yeah, I have a brain, so I understand that while "poverty" is defined as a proportion of the median income, we'll never get rid of it unless we turn this country into a Cambodian-style paradise.

I don't agree with you but I did laugh at this.

[MisterD]

I don't agree with you

Explain how we can ever eradicate poverty defined as <60% of the median income.

**Edit**

Case in point - the number of people in "poverty" went down during the GFC. Not because they were any better off, but simply because the median income dropped.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Explain how we can ever eradicate poverty defined as <60% of the median income.

**Edit**

Case in point - the number of people in "poverty" went down during the GFC. Not because they were any better off, but simply because the median income dropped.

No, I dont wish to engage.

unless you want to get married? We can now you know.

[mashman]

:brick::brick:

Tax cuts are not giving people money. It's not the government's money, it's theirs.

:facepalm: You bang your head against the wall as if I don't appreciate your position. Nothing could be further from the truth, because it would imply that I have never felt that what I had earned was mine. I did feel that way i.e. I did think that way also once upon a time. I changed my mind as I felt it no longer prudent to treat human beings as a distant second to the financial economy. Yes, ALL human beings.

Tax cuts are the removal of funds that provide a lot of our essential services. I understand that you would like to privatise education, maybe the healthcare system, maybe the roads and all of those other things that you believe shouldn't be the remit of any government. I once thought that way too and still do because that's exactly the one of the economic models that underpins an R.B.E. However, given the economy and the way it stands, I'd rather we did the shit we talked about in committees for 10 years and got on with doing stuff that needs to be done NOW, snigger. The financial economy and an R.B.E. look to have the same end point. However one will accomplish the tax exponentially quicker than the other... that's the R.B.E. btw.

NOW, snigger, engage that brain and see if you can understand MY position... and if you can, then you should have a solid reason other than: human beings just won't do it. They have never been "educated" in regards to an R.B.E., neither have they been asked. I've always been surprised by how quickly people can be turned :shifty:

[MisterD]

No, I dont wish to engage.

unless you want to get married? We can now you know.

I like rugby, but not that much.

[HenryDorsetCase]

I like rugby, but not that much.

I dont like rugby, I find it tedious, but I do like gay sex.

[Woodman]

I dont like rugby, I find it tedious, but I do like gay sex.



Bloody Soccer players.........:spanking:

[mashman]

Bloody Soccer players.........:spanking:

FFS the sport is Football. You're an english colony, not an american one.

[Woodman]

FFS the sport is Football. You're an english colony, not an american one.

Incorrect. Some rugby people call Rugby Football, Football so it is best to refer to Football as Soccer to save being accidentally hit on by a Soccer player who refers to Soccer as Football and not Football as in Rugby Football.

[mashman]

Incorrect. Some rugby people call Rugby Football, Football so it is best to refer to Football as Soccer to save being accidentally hit on by a Soccer player who refers to Soccer as Football and not Football as in Rugby Football.

So, you shorten the name of your sport for convenience and then change the name of the actual sport that bares that name, before being sportist... I'm sure I heard a similar conversation in the public toilets the other day. "Hey, is it Football or Soccer?" ... "Sssocccerrr" ... "Cool, I've got he lube.". I thought I was hearing things too.

[buggerit]

FFS the sport is Football. You're an english colony, not an american one.

Association football actually, thats there the soccer comes from.

[mada]

Explain how we can ever eradicate poverty defined as <60% of the median income.

**Edit**

Case in point - the number of people in "poverty" went down during the GFC. Not because they were any better off, but simply because the median income dropped.

Case in point, the definition of poverty you provided is made up by yourself and is not used anywhere :clap::clap:

Otherwise the poverty rate would stay the same :weird:.... So keep on banging your head against the wall :brick:

[mashman]

Association football actually, thats there the soccer comes from.

Dagnamit, there's always one who knows :laugh:

[Maha]

Association football actually, thats there the soccer comes from.

And the word Soccer derives from Association, yeah I watch Hot Seat Millionaire. :msn-wink:

[Woodman]

Association football actually, thats there the soccer comes from.

Why did they use the 3rd 4th,5th letters S.O.C instead of the first three letters A.S.S ???

[buggerit]

Why did they use the 3rd 4th,5th letters S.O.C instead of the first three letters A.S.S ???

assoccer, I see what u mean:laugh:

[carbonhed]

Case in point, the definition of poverty you provided is made up by yourself and is not used anywhere :clap::clap:

Otherwise the poverty rate would stay the same :weird:.... So keep on banging your head against the wall :brick:

Better check back with your controller at Labour HQ.

"The fixed line measure (60 percent of median income) adjusted for housing costs indicated 15 percent of the total population lived in poverty in 2010"

Might want to check this out (http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/parl-support/research-papers/00PlibCIP181/household-incomes-inequality-and-poverty)

[mada]

Better check back with your controller at Labour HQ.

"The fixed line measure (60 percent of median income) adjusted for housing costs indicated 15 percent of the total population lived in poverty in 2010"

Might want to check this out (http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/parl-support/research-papers/00PlibCIP181/household-incomes-inequality-and-poverty)

Well hey, there you go. Congratulations on one of you being able to find out what the true measure of poverty is based on income....

Now can you tell me what the one is for Deprivation - will give you a cyberbeer (picture of beer being held by some hotties like before)...

PS. Labour didn't care too much for kids in poverty either (hence why Child Poverty Action Group took them to court over discrimination in WFF).

[Ocean1]

Well hey, there you go. Congratulations on one of you being able to find out what the true measure of poverty is based on income....

It's not. Unless you're WHO, or a Labour party stalwart it's based on consumption. Huge difference.

Now here's the thing: a lot of people have a vested interest in pretending that poverty is a substantial problem. People like this: http://www.heifer.org/join-the-conversation/magazine/2012/spring-2012/triple-threat-of-unstable-food-prices.html , an organisation who's existence and funding rely on poverty being a substantial problem. And let's face it where would socialism be if the people's best interests were shown to be other than dependant upon it's core tenets?

And yet organisations without such motives, including those who specialise in collecting and disseminating data from various authoritative and apparently impartial sources tell a slightly different story: http://www.ourworldindata.org/data/growth-and-distribution-of-prosperity/world-poverty/

"In 1820 the vast majority of people lived in extreme poverty and only a tiny elite enjoyed higher standards of living. Economic growth over the last 200 years completely transformed our world and poverty fell continuously over the whole 2 last centuries. This is even more remarkable when we consider that the population increased 7-fold over the same time (which in itself is a consequence of increasing living standards and decreasing mortality – especially of infants and children – around the world). In a world without economic growth an increase in the population would result into less and less income for everyone and a 7-fold increase would have surely resulted in a world in which everyone is extremely poor. Yet, the exact opposite happened. In a time of unprecedented population growth we managed to lift more and more people out of poverty! Even in 1981 more than 50% of the world population lived in absolute poverty – this is now down to about 20%. This is still a large number of people but the change is happening incredibly fast and for our present world the data tells us that poverty is now falling more quickly than ever before in world history. The first of the Millenium Development Goals set by the UN was to halve the population living in absolute poverty between 1990 and 2015. Rapid economic growth meant that this goal – arguably the most important – was achieved (5 years ahead of time) in 2010."

300070

So let's hear a bit less of your whining about shit you have no idea about, eh? There's a good chap.

[buggerit]

In 1980 an analysis of 6 large firms in Britain found that chief executives were paid 13 to 44 times more than their average employee. The figure has
now increased to 143 times although in some companies it is a lot more.

Waikato Times today

[Woodman]

In 1980 an analysis of 6 large firms in Britain found that chief executives were paid 13 to 44 times more than their average employee. The figure has
now increased to 143 times although in some companies it is a lot more.

Waikato Times today

So some execs are getting paid a shitload. Good for them, but that doesn't make anyone poorer.

[oldrider]

Nice to hear that Niki Hager is giving all of the proceeds of his book to charity ... he is only in it to do good works by exposing evil! :msn-wink:

[Winston001]

So how do we all stand on Judith Collins as a Minister of the Crown (now of Justice, Acc etc) leaking a public servants name and details such as phone numbers to Whale Oil who then published an attack rant on the person (that was false) that resulted in that person receiving death threat.

Actually I agree with you. While being an admirer of Judith Collins because of her intelligence and ability to focus on the core issues, it is simply wrong for her to out a public servant. Constitutionally and ethically wrong. Plus she made a mistake anyway - an error no lawyer should make. Know the facts not suspicions.

[Winston001]

In 1980 an analysis of 6 large firms in Britain found that chief executives were paid 13 to 44 times more than their average employee. The figure has
now increased to 143 times although in some companies it is a lot more.

Waikato Times today

There are more recent (US) surveys with even more extreme results. In fact there is a shareholders revolt group in the US attacking this type of inequity.

Still for some strange reason the arguments get no traction.

[mada]

Actually I agree with you. While being an admirer of Judith Collins because of her intelligence and ability to focus on the core issues, it is simply wrong for her to out a public servant. Constitutionally and ethically wrong. Plus she made a mistake anyway - an error no lawyer should make. Know the facts not suspicions.

:niceone: on ya mate.

Strangely Bill English seemed to be saying all the right things today.

[buggerit]

With the focus on Ms Collins, it seems to have taken the heat off the primeministers dep and SIS over fast tracking of info to Slater,is
this a srtatagy and a reason not to give her the DCM?

[bluninja]

With the focus on Ms Collins, it seems to have taken the heat off the primeministers dep and SIS over fast tracking of info to Slater,is
this a srtatagy and a reason not to give her the DCM?

Maybe that's (SIS) died down because of this (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11310735)

[blue rider]

https://scontent-a-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10557376_10152399576429285_9079727912784418211_n.j pg?oh=5f31a0a8905f46c02b47079fb97ae072&oe=5464C5D7

:laugh:

[Oscar]

Actually I agree with you. While being an admirer of Judith Collins because of her intelligence and ability to focus on the core issues, it is simply wrong for her to out a public servant. Constitutionally and ethically wrong. Plus she made a mistake anyway - an error no lawyer should make. Know the facts not suspicions.

She should go.
She should not wait to be pushed, she should do the right thing by the voters and her party and at least stand down as Minister.

[oldrider]

All Key has to do is leave it to the electoral process ... her electorate will decide whether she stays or goes ... simple as that, no big deal for him! :shifty:

If they (National) are returned to power then Key can decide about cabinet positions again at that time. :bleh:

The media and the left (one in the same) have nothing else to offer at this late hour other than this bullshit. :laugh:

[MisterD]

Maybe that's (SIS) died down because of this (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11310735)

Yeah, methinks that the Director of the SIS was pissed off with Goff calling him a liar and made sure the OIA was processed quick-smart.

[Paul in NZ]

All this is a bloggers (left and right) paradise... at last someone other than the die hards are paying attention to them...

[buggerit]

Yeah, methinks that the Director of the SIS was pissed off with Goff calling him a liar and made sure the OIA was processed quick-smart.

I would like to know why other media received the requested info at a later date or not at all.

[MisterD]

I would like to know why other media received the requested info at a later date or not at all.

If my memory from the time is correct, then other media had submitted wide-ranging fishing-expedition style requests, and were simply beaten to the punch by a much smarter and more specfic request from Slater.

He basically asked for just documents and diary notes relating to one meeting between the head of the SIS and Goff...which you can be sure were already on his desk by that point. All he needed to do was get someone to photocopy, slap the big black redacting marker across them, phone Goff to let him know he was about to find himself in a big hole and mail them to Slater. Surprised that took six days really.

People might not like Slater, he might do some stupid, nasty, vindictive stuff from time to time, but he isn't dumb.

[Scouse]

If my memory from the time is correct, then other media had submitted wide-ranging fishing-expedition style requests, and were simply beaten to the punch by a much smarter and more specfic request from Slater.

He basically asked for just documents and diary notes relating to one meeting between the head of the SIS and Goff...which you can be sure were already on his desk by that point. All he needed to do was get someone to photocopy, slap the big black redacting marker across them, phone Goff to let him know he was about to find himself in a big hole and mail them to Slater. Surprised that took six days really.

People might not like Slater, he might do some stupid, nasty, vindictive stuff from time to time, but he isn't dumb.Well at the end of the day its time for the fat lady to sing.

[mada]

If my memory from the time is correct, then other media had submitted wide-ranging fishing-expedition style requests, and were simply beaten to the punch by a much smarter and more specfic request from Slater.

He basically asked for just documents and diary notes relating to one meeting between the head of the SIS and Goff...which you can be sure were already on his desk by that point. All he needed to do was get someone to photocopy, slap the big black redacting marker across them, phone Goff to let him know he was about to find himself in a big hole and mail them to Slater. Surprised that took six days really.

People might not like Slater, he might do some stupid, nasty, vindictive stuff from time to time, but he isn't dumb.



The SIS explained away the different treatment by arguing that The Dominion Post also sought a copy of the briefing notes supplied to Key. However, this was the same document given to Goff

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10389804/SIS-gave-blogger-first-dibs-on-papers-release

Nowhere have I ever recalled seeing such a fast processing of an OIA. Usually they take up to 20 working days. In fact the OIA on whether John Key was a "reptile" took about 20 days..

If Warren Tucker released the info because he was "pissed off" then there are serious implications in terms of Political Neutrality and especially because this is the NZSIS our top spy agency.

I very much doubt it will simply blow ever... As this and Judith Collins dilemma essentially tear apart the fabric of the seperation and trust between the Legislative and Executive powers of Government. Wont be long until the third part of Government, the judiciary gets involved.

[oldrider]

Judiciary is supposed to be independent of government ... what are you trying to suggest now? :shifty:

[MisterD]

If Warren Tucker released the info because he was "pissed off" then there are serious implications in terms of Political Neutrality and especially because this is the NZSIS our top spy agency.

I'm not following your reasoning here. Is a public servant supposed to drag his feet over release of documents that he must do under the law, because they'll back up his version of events? A public servant who is unable, by virtue of his job, unable to actually give his side of events in public.

IMO it's a much worse look for the Leader of the Opposition to go around calling senior public servants liars because they're trying to get a hit on the government.

Goff is unfit to be in parliament, but then that's been the case since he was spitting on Vietnam vets.

[dinosaur]

All Key has to do is leave it to the electoral process ... her electorate will decide whether she stays or goes ... simple as that, no big deal for him! :shifty:

If they (National) are returned to power then Key can decide about cabinet positions again at that time. :bleh:

The media and the left (one in the same) have nothing else to offer at this late hour other than this bullshit. :laugh:

Vote NZ First?

[mada]

I'm not following your reasoning here. Is a public servant supposed to drag his feet over release of documents that he must do under the law, because they'll back up his version of events? A public servant who is unable, by virtue of his job, unable to actually give his side of events in public.

IMO it's a much worse look for the Leader of the Opposition to go around calling senior public servants liars because they're trying to get a hit on the government.

Goff is unfit to be in parliament, but then that's been the case since he was spitting on Vietnam vets.

Hey I certainly don't agree with what Goff did. But I don't agree with potential abuse of OIA to potentially give people preferential treatment.

The issue will not be dying down as today:


"Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security inquiry into release of NZSIS information

The Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security (IGIS), Cheryl Gwyn, announced today that she would be instituting an inquiry concerning allegations that the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service (NZSIS) might have released official information to Mr Cameron Slater, regarding briefings provided to the then Leader of the Opposition, for political purposes.

The Inspector-General has decided to institute the inquiry under her own motion powers pursuant to sections 11(1)(a) and (ca) of the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security Act 1996 rather than in response to a specific complaint."

http://www.igis.govt.nz/about/news-updates/


I suspect, many other bodies of Government will now begin "investigations" based on the allegations in Hagers book too.

[Ocean1]

In 1980 an analysis of 6 large firms in Britain found that chief executives were paid 13 to 44 times more than their average employee. The figure has
now increased to 143 times although in some companies it is a lot more.

Waikato Times today


So some execs are getting paid a shitload. Good for them, but that doesn't make anyone poorer.

Correct. I can hear mate mada winding up some imbecilic comment as we type about them not being worth that much. In fact the people paying them are obviously of the opinion that they are, and as it's their money they're spending it's not actually anyone else's business what they pay.

[MisterD]

Can't see how that's going anywhere.

Was the OIA request valid? Yep.
Was there any good reason why the information should not have been released? No.

Where's the problem? Oh right, the mainstream media scooped by a blogger nobody admits to liking.

[oldrider]

Vote NZ First?

Comedian, entertaining, flexible beyond compare and consumate politician, have actually met him a few times found him a very likeable little guy!

The big question: would I vote for him? ... no! (I do prefer him to a lot of others on offer from the left though!)

[mada]

Can't see how that's going anywhere.

Was the OIA request valid? Yep.
Was there any good reason why the information should not have been released? No.

Where's the problem? Oh right, the mainstream media scooped by a blogger nobody admits to liking.

I think if it was as clear cut as that she wouldn't be commencing an investigation as her background was as a Deputy Solicitor General for Crown Law, specifically focused on Constitutional areas of law.

[mada]

Correct. I can hear mate mada winding up some imbecilic comment as we type about them not being worth that much. In fact the people paying them are obviously of the opinion that they are, and as it's their money they're spending it's not actually anyone else's business what they pay.

....

I have no issues with shareholders deciding how much to pay their execs. I do have issues when it comes to taxpayer funded execs and the bullshit argument that a chief executive of govt. department or council should be on "market rates".

I'm sure you will be able to come up with imbecilic comment about how increasing the exec salaries by tens of thousands for all the power companies that we just sold shares in has somehow resulted in massive increases in productivity.:yawn:

[SPman]

In fact the people paying them are obviously of the opinion that they are, and as it's their money they're spending it's not actually anyone else's business what they pay.Like the major world banks that were bailed out to the tune of Billions of taxpayer dollars, and promptly used a large chunk of the money to pay themselves ever fatter bonuses and salaries, despite the fact they were responsible for the massive losses in the first place. In many cases, the wishes of the investors have nothing to do with setting salaries - most fund investors couldn't give a stuff what "managers" are paid...in fact...the more they are paid, the more others consider they are "worth",a self feeding cycle of greed and rapaciousness.........

I'm rather partial to this.........



Widespread Support for Sending Politicians to Prison for Ninety-Nine Years

By Andy Borowitz, The New Yorker
18 August 14

http://readersupportednews.org/images/stories/alphabet/rsn-L.jpgast week’s indictment of Texas Governor Rick Perry has sparked widespread bipartisan support for the concept of sending politicians to prison for ninety-nine years.
While Americans are divided about the merits of the specific charges levelled against Perry, there is near-unanimous agreement that imprisoning politicians for ninety-nine years is an idea worth exploring further, a poll released on Monday indicates.
According to the poll, eighty-seven per cent of voters from both parties agreed that sending politicians to prison for such a lengthy period would “solve a lot of problems” and “make the country safer.”
Additionally, when asked to name one politician they would like to see incarcerated for ninety-nine years, voters easily rattled off a dozen or more such candidates, with some voters naming as many as fifty.
Finally, when informed that imprisoning politicians for ninety-nine years might lead to overcrowding that would require the construction of costly new prisons, eighty-three per cent agreed with the statement, “Money is no object.”


:killingme
I'm sure we could do something similar here........

[oldrider]

:killingme I'm sure we could do something similar here........

Yes but the jails are all full, so they would only get "home detention"! :facepalm:

Perhaps if they gave current prisoners home detention at the politicians houses and put the politicians into the jails it might work OK here! :yes:

[Ocean1]

....

I have no issues with shareholders deciding how much to pay their execs. I do have issues when it comes to taxpayer funded execs and the bullshit argument that a chief executive of govt. department or council should be on "market rates".

It's your money, you have a right to a say in how it's spent.

But your preference to pay less than the job's worth is pretty fucking silly ain't it? I mean you bleat loud enough about the quality of the current crop, and you want to pay less?


Like the major world banks that were bailed out to the tune of Billions of taxpayer dollars, and promptly used a large chunk of the money to pay themselves ever fatter bonuses and salaries, despite the fact they were responsible for the massive losses in the first place. In many cases, the wishes of the investors have nothing to do with setting salaries - most fund investors couldn't give a stuff what "managers" are paid...in fact...the more they are paid, the more others consider they are "worth",a self feeding cycle of greed and rapaciousness........

I don't like my hard earned going to make good an investment decision I had nothing to do with either, rather see them fall on the merits of their own decisions.

However, it's far from clear that bank managers were the root cause of the failures. What is clear is that the US govt, in particular fucked with the market in ways that, in hindsight were unbelievably unwise, and if you feel the need to blame anyone for the GFC then I'd say it's probably more accurate to lay the blame at the feet of govts, rather than bank managers. Maybe we should simply require govts to stay the fuck out of businesses they don't understand and are quite likely to monumentally fuck up given half a chance.

As for whether bank managers are worth their wages? Who knows, but those paying them reckon they are, and it's about as OK for you to have some say in that as it is for me to dictate what you should pay for your motorcycle. If you really object to someone earning so much more than you can stomach then you have a bunch of ways you can influence them that are probably more likely to have some effect than bleating about it here. You can use a bank that pays it's managers less. In fact you can refrain from using any business the remuneration details of which you disapprove.

You could start your own business, and pay yourself and any managers fuck all. That's bound to make you feel better.

[blue rider]

funnies, everywhere there be funnies

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvgS2ZMCEAEIu66.jpg

from here :)

https://twitter.com/felixmarwick/status/502172086048006144/photo/1

and a wee pdf dump for those that like these things.

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/images/pdfs/ombusdman-21aug2014.pdf


ah to know or not to know or just to pretend to know but maybe he just simply can't recall?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8Irk0GODh8

[pritch]

Posted here in the interests of helping you reach an informed decision. :whistle: (But slightly pessimistic about the required attention span?)
http://ruminator.co.nz/election-2014-policy-watch/

[MisterD]

funnies, everywhere there be funnies

I'm really unsure what the significance of that letter is, given that it states that the PM was informed that Goof had already been informed, therefore the decision had already been made and not by the PM?

I see, amidst all the hoo-hah and attempting to find John Key's finger prints on this, it's now been realised that he was still on holiday in Hawaii, following a visit to the US.

I really think the opposition et al should give up on this, they seemed to be getting somewhere with the Collins attacks but have resorted to Christchurch lawyery types complaining about a road being named after someone not from the Village of the Damned on that front. Opportunity to create HDC Way missed, what?

[oldrider]

TV is entertainment TV methods are to repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat until ... what was the question? ... Oh I don't remember now but repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat ... Oh now I remember, repeat repeat repeat ... it was what they said on TV repeat repeat repeat repeat ... and so a lie becomes the new truth repeat repeat :yes:

[blue rider]

I'm really unsure what the significance of that letter is, given that it states that the PM was informed that Goof had already been informed, therefore the decision had already been made and not by the PM?

I see, amidst all the hoo-hah and attempting to find John Key's finger prints on this, it's now been realised that he was still on holiday in Hawaii, following a visit to the US.

I really think the opposition et al should give up on this, they seemed to be getting somewhere with the Collins attacks but have resorted to Christchurch lawyery types complaining about a road being named after someone not from the Village of the Damned on that front. Opportunity to create HDC Way missed, what?



I notified the Prime Minister ..........that i was going to release redacted documents in response to the request by Cameron Slater

http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a-news/john-key-interview-transcript-4321301


GUYON One of the issues that's come in from the sidelines, I guess, on this trip was the accusations of Israeli spying in Christchurch. One of the things that I don't think we have asked you is why or if you raised this with the parliamentary select committee which looks at intelligence issues.

JOHN I certainly haven't raised it with the parliamentary select committee.

GUYON Why was that?

JOHN Well, because that committee hasn't met for that purpose. That's not the- We wouldn't share that level of information. Not all of those members will have that level of security clearance for that sort of thing. I mean, that committee meets and debates legislation. Now, there may be members of that committee that have understanding in that area, but certainly not the committee.

GUYON Did you brief Phil Goff?

JOHN Phil Goff was briefed, yeah, that's right. I personally didn't brief him, but my understanding from the director of SIS, Warren Tucker, is that he was briefed and he was shown the same note and report that I saw.

GUYON Is the file closed?

JOHN Yeah. It closed on- I probably won't tell you the day, but it's closed.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10743290


Documentary evidence

July 24: John Key says the SIS briefed Phil Goff about the behaviour of Israeli nationals in Christchurch. Mr Goff contacts SIS director Dr Warren Tucker to say he had not been briefed.
July 25: Mr Goff and Dr Tucker meet to discuss the matter.
July 26: Cameron Slater asks the SIS about the issue.

As I said, so many funnies :), but I am sure that all sides to it, In fact it is like speeding and driving at a 104.5 km.....all may speed on the Motorway, but only those caught get tickets?

btw. without an opposition you would very quickly risk having an Autocracy and you would not want that? John Key worship and all, at the end of the day would you really want a totalitarian regime?

[Banditbandit]

at the end of the day would you really want a totalitarian regime?

Only if it did everything my way ... :innocent:

[pritch]

Judiciary is supposed to be independent of government ...

Yeah but Slater ran to the cops and complained about being hacked. This from a dude who used material stolen from the Labour Party's computer records but... He also suggested the Police take a hard look at Dot Com as a suspect. Slater doesn't like KDC so he must be the guilty one.

Dot Com has spoken to his legal people about Slater slandering him or similar. So with one thing and another it's quite possible that the judiciary will be involved.

I wonder how many people at the IRD read Hager's book. In the emails there is mention of Slater receiving some $80,000 a year from the tobacco industry, $12,000 pa from somebody else. There was also apparently paid use made of his blog by big food interests and possibly others as well. I hope he has remembered to declare all of this in his income tax return. Otherwise it's quite possible that the tax man will become involved as well.

[Oscar]

Yeah but Slater ran to the cops and complained about being hacked. This from a dude who used material stolen from the Labour Party's computer records but... He also suggested the Police take a hard look at Dot Com as a suspect. Slater doesn't like KDC so he must be the guilty one.

Dot Com has spoken to his legal people about Slater slandering him or similar. So with one thing and another it's quite possible that the judiciary will be involved.

.

Speaking of slander...
My understanding is that the Labour Party system wasn't hacked.
It was left open in error and the party had to apologise to those who had info on it.

[mada]

Speaking of slander...
My understanding is that the Labour Party system wasn't hacked.
It was left open in error and the party had to apologise to those who had info on it.

Ah so if you used a computer at an internet cafe and left your bank account details logged on - fair game.

Or if you leave your door open to your house and someone walks in = not burglary.

Yeh right.

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM330430.html


252 Accessing computer system without authorisation

(1)Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years who intentionally accesses, directly or indirectly, any computer system without authorisation, knowing that he or she is not authorised to access that computer system, or being reckless as to whether or not he or she is authorised to access that computer system.
(2)To avoid doubt, subsection (1) does not apply if a person who is authorised to access a computer system accesses that computer system for a purpose other than the one for which that person was given access.
(3)[Repealed]

Did Whaleoil Intentionally access it? Yes.
Did he have authorisation? No.
Did he know he did not have authorisation? Yes.

:facepalm:

[Oscar]

Ah so if you used a computer at an internet cafe and left your bank account details logged on - fair game.

Or if you leave your door open to your house and someone walks in = not burglary.

Yeh right.

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM330430.html



Did Whaleoil Intentionally access it? Yes.
Did he have authorisation? No.
Did he know he did not have authorisation? Yes.

:facepalm:


So, you no doubt have proof that Whaleoil was the one who obtained the emails?
Unless you do - then it's slander (actually libel, as it's written).

And of course you kin that those statues apply equally to Mr.Hager, don't you?
Or is it different when the left does it?

[mada]

So, you no doubt have proof that Whaleoil was the one who obtained the emails?
Unless you do - then it's slander (actually libel, as it's written).

And of course you kin that those statues apply equally to Mr.Hager, don't you?
Or is it different when the left does it?

What the fuck are you talking about? Emails? You just said that the "Labour party system wasn't hacked"

I've provided the law on the matter. The law clearly states it doesn't matter if you can access something when you are not authorised.

Reading comprehension not strong eh? :tugger:

[Oscar]

What the fuck are you talking about? Emails? You just said that the "Labour party system wasn't hacked"

I've provided the law on the matter. The law clearly states it doesn't matter if you can access something when you are not authorised.

Reading comprehension not strong eh? :tugger:

The Labour Party system wasn't hacked.
It was a public website, open to all, so authorisation isn't an issue, dickwad.
The Labour Party would have been hard pressed to prove which parts of their website shouldn't have been accessable.

Law isn't your strongpoint, eh?

[mada]

The Labour Party system wasn't hacked.
It was a public website, open to all, so authorisation isn't an issue, dickwad.
The Labour Party would have been hard pressed to prove which parts of their website shouldn't have been accessable.

Law isn't your strongpoint, eh?

It does not matter that it was accessible, when it is not supposed to be accessible and they knew they should not have been able to access it.

Best leave it a jury or judge then.

As innocent as John Banks.:tugger:

[Katman]

I seem to remember reading that the person who accessed the Labour party site expressed relief that he wasn't caught.

Sounds to me like he knew he shouldn't be doing it.