Any one have Round-up shares?

[Katman]

http://www.doctor-natasha.com/dangers-of-glyphosate.php

[mashman]

Money eh... the conquest of nature in order to turn a buck :facepalm:. We deserve extinction in so many ways.

[Hitcher]

Dear God. Who dreams up this shit? And shit.

The fantasies that go through the heads of the Big Pharma conspiracy theorists beggar belief. Perhaps if glyphosate wasn't routinely added to chemtrails, then things may be better?

[nodrog]

Fuckin hippies, I've never seen an obese cow.

[mossy1200]

Money eh... the conquest of nature in order to turn a buck :facepalm:. We deserve extinction in so many ways.

Calm down. We will get there. You just need be a bit more patient.:calm:

[bogan]

There is supporting research about if you look for it. http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/15/4/1416/pdf

From the abstract that one is definitely worth perusing before a kneejerk slagging off of the hippies.

[Mike.Gayner]

Glyphosate is perhaps the most widely (independently) tested agrichemical in history, and it's perfectly safe. Conspiracy theorists can eat a dick.

[Katman]

Dear God. Who dreams up this shit? And shit.

The fantasies that go through the heads of the Big Pharma conspiracy theorists beggar belief. Perhaps if glyphosate wasn't routinely added to chemtrails, then things may be better?

How remarkably open-minded of you.

You're not related to Ed by any chance?

[Swoop]

Perhaps if glyphosate wasn't routinely added to chemtrails, then things may be better?
Big Pharma shouldn't base all of their chemtrail aircraft in Taupo. If there was a mysterious explosion, they might all get damaged.
Now that would be a conspiracy!

300939300940300941300938

[mashman]

Calm down. We will get there. You just need be a bit more patient.:calm:

lol... oh I know we'll get there.

[Oakie]

A hippie at work jumped up and down because our maintenance guys used it recently. It made me do the research again and I'm still happy to use it on my patch of land. As an example of the sort of findings that get bandied about was one that glyphosate damages foetal cells. Oh no! Then I discovered that they did not discover this by spraying a mix on an analogue to study. They put some straight glyphosate in a petri dish and left some foetal cells in there. I'd imagine if you left some foetal cells on half the natural foods we eat for a while the result would not be good for the cells. FFS ... safe when used as directed! A handy tip I did pick up was if you are worried abut the stuff, put mulch over the area you spray as there's some enzyme or bacteria in active mulch that neutralises it quicker.

Ages ago I remember a guy from our national poisons centre saying that you could ingest the stuff and be 'OK'. More dangerous to get it in your eyes.

Nevertheless ... when using it ... its latex gloves, overalls and gumboots for me. I did watch an uncle of mine die over a period of years as a result of using agrichemicals (DDT etc) on his farm. He was 80 but his last years weren't good. Anyway, I do have a healthy respect for the sprays I use so I don't say I believe glyphosate to be safe lightly.

[Katman]

Scientific American's take on it.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/weed-whacking-herbicide-p/

[Katman]

Glyphosate is perhaps the most widely (independently) tested agrichemical in history, and it's perfectly safe. Conspiracy theorists can eat a dick.

Do you have shares in Monsanto?

[bogan]

A hippie at work jumped up and down because our maintenance guys used it recently. It made me do the research again and I'm still happy to use it on my patch of land. As an example of the sort of findings that get bandied about was one that glyphosate damages foetal cells. Oh no! Then I discovered that they did not discover this by spraying a mix on an analogue to study. They put some straight glyphosate in a petri dish and left some foetal cells in there. I'd imagine if you left some foetal cells on half the natural foods we eat for a while the result would not be good for the cells. FFS ... safe when used as directed! A handy tip I did pick up was if you are worried abut the stuff, put mulch over the area you spray as there's some enzyme or bacteria in active mulch that neutralises it quicker.

Ages ago I remember a guy from our national poisons centre saying that you could ingest the stuff and be 'OK'. More dangerous to get it in your eyes.

Nevertheless ... when using it ... its latex gloves, overalls and gumboots for me. I did watch an uncle of mine die over a period of years as a result of using agrichemicals (DDT etc) on his farm. He was 80 but his last years weren't good. Anyway, I do have a healthy respect for the sprays I use so I don't say I believe glyphosate to be safe lightly.

I think there is two parts to it, using it to kill things is pretty low exposure as unless you're a complete numpty it won't end up in your gut. The second bit, where they breed GMO crops specifically so they can spray your food with round-up before consumption is another story, as numpty or not, that will get in your guts. The breif research I've been reading on that suggests erring on the safe side and avoiding ingestion.

Gut flora is not something you really want to fuck with. http://mygaming.co.za/news/wp-content/uploads/alien_chest_resize_860139281.jpg

[Katman]

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/07/30/glyphosate-toxicity.aspx

[JATZ]

Years ago when I first got my first growsafe I learn't you could drink about a cup of it before it would do to much harm :gob: It's a pretty safe agrichemical IMHO (but I wouldn't want to bath in it)

[buggerit]

Dear God. Who dreams up this shit? And shit.

The fantasies that go through the heads of the Big Pharma conspiracy theorists beggar belief. Perhaps if glyphosate wasn't routinely added to chemtrails, then things may be better?
Lucky they raised the allowable level of glyphosphate in foodstuffs a few years back isn't it.
Great that you can spray the shit out of these genetically modified plants to kill the weeds and not the crop,saves a lot of interrow cultivation etc.
We should see them in NZ soon once the TPPA agreement is signed.
All our spuds are sprayed out with roundup, better than the paraquat they used to use I spose
Roundup ready canola , yum,makes that margarine even tastier!

[Oakie]

The breif research I've been reading on that suggests erring on the safe side and avoiding ingestion.

Absolutely. You don't have to fear it but you must respect it.

[Hitcher]

Absolutely. You don't have to fear it but you must respect it.

Just like one should do with water.

Oh, and here's a link that's probably worth reading before we have a discussion about what "proper" scientific literature involves.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10854122

[Katman]

Just like one should do with water.

Oh, and here's a link that's probably worth reading before we have a discussion about what "proper" scientific literature involves.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10854122

From the same source.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15862083

[bogan]

Just like one should do with water.

Oh, and here's a link that's probably worth reading before we have a discussion about what "proper" scientific literature involves.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10854122

Notice it makes mention of intestinal irritation in rats at three months, but does not appear to have any tests longer than that.

[scumdog]

Dear God. Who dreams up this shit? And shit.

The fantasies that go through the heads of the Big Pharma conspiracy theorists beggar belief. Perhaps if glyphosate wasn't routinely added to chemtrails, then things may be better?

"Must spread rep" el-oh-el!!!:lol:

[Katman]

Why don't you dig a bit deeper Hitcher?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24678255

[Katman]

Should I keep going?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23756170

[george formby]

I think there is two parts to it, using it to kill things is pretty low exposure as unless you're a complete numpty it won't end up in your gut. The second bit, where they breed GMO crops specifically so they can spray your food with round-up before consumption is another story, as numpty or not, that will get in your guts. The breif research I've been reading on that suggests erring on the safe side and avoiding ingestion.



Yup, I have a foot in each camp.
It kills things, not good. I do not want to eat it as a permanent ingredient of my nachos or weetbix. I wonder how many of the products in the supermarket contain ingredients which have had high glyphostae exposure?

I do use it to kill things. Other, nastier, weed killers, too. We have lots of toxic weeds & some are relentless & seemingly indestructible. As directed, not in a numpty like fashion.

Two questions, sorry OP.

What is the best solvent / cleaner for round up?

Does anything kill wandering dew?

[Ocean1]

Does anything kill wandering dew?

Wandering Jew. Tradescentia.

And roundup will kill the foliage at high enough concentrations, but a small thermonuclear device at weekly may be required to cause minor discomfort to the extensive root system.

[buggerit]

Does anything kill wandering dew?

wheres Axle?

[george formby]

Wandering Jew. Tradescentia.

And roundup will kill the foliage at high enough concentrations, but a small thermonuclear device at weekly may be required to cause minor discomfort to the extensive root system.

That's my experience. It's indestructible.

As you were.

[buggerit]

How do I get rid of it?
Cover the area with black plastic for 6-12 months; or
Spray with 60ml triclopyr (300g/l e.g. Grazon®) + 10ml penetrant per 10 litres water. Follow-up is essential.

[Mike.Gayner]

Do you have shares in Monsanto?

Did I mention that conspiracy theorists can eat a dick?

[doc]

el-oh-el!!!:lol:

:blink: WTF..... LOL is what the say old fella.

In the eighties saw a Wrightson rep promoting Roundup at a Te Puke Fieldays drink it to show how safe it was.

[bogan]

Did I mention that conspiracy theorists can eat a dick?

Did we mention this is not a conspiracy theory? It is simply the negative effects of a well used chemical finally being examined in more detail (by the 0.007% of the populace with an open mind it would seem). If you're seeing a conspiracy in that maybe it is you who needs order the phallic platter.

[bogan]

In the eighties saw a Wrightson rep promoting Roundup at a Te Puke Fieldays drink it to show how safe it was.

A pretty shit rep if he can't read his own labels...

[Katman]

Did we mention this is not a conspiracy theory?

And even if it was.....

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/07/12/313399/conspiracy-theorists-vs-govt-dupes/

[Hitcher]

Threads like this are what keep me sane. Thank you linesmen. Thank you ball boys.

[unstuck]

Threads like this are what keep me sane.

You, sane. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[mashman]

And even if it was.....

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/07/12/313399/conspiracy-theorists-vs-govt-dupes/

"No wonder the anti-conspiracy people are sounding more and more like a bunch of hostile, paranoid fuckwits.".

Just made a quick change to the conclusion to reflect a more clear picture.

[Mo NZ]

Safer than Paraquat and Diesel though.

[Akzle]

Glyphosate is perhaps the most widely (independently) tested agrichemical in history, and it's perfectly safe. Conspiracy theorists can eat a dick.
tested?? no, i think you mean used. and just because it's been used for ~4 decades, doesn't make it okeydokey.
i CBF actually doing any research on it. i use it in doses to do what i want it to. (rarely, and i plant a fuckload of trees)
i have heard (and could believe) that a) they don't know how it kills plants. and b) they don't know how persistent it is.
now, i was lead to believe also, by a semi credible sauce, that it degraded in soil. maybe yes, maybe no.

Years ago when I first got my first growsafe I learn't you could drink about a cup of it before it would do to much harm :gob: It's a pretty safe agrichemical IMHO (but I wouldn't want to bath in it)
i watched a guy do just that. (and the number quoted was 2 litres)... ahhh. osh.



Great that you can spray the shit out of these genetically modified plants to kill the weeds and not the crop,saves a lot of interrow cultivation etc.
We should see them in NZ soon once the TPPA agreement is signed.
All our spuds are sprayed out with roundup, better than the paraquat they used to use I spose
Roundup ready canola , yum,makes that margarine even tastier!
i don't eat mono or polyunsaturated shit, you'd have to be fucking stupid to actually put that crap in your facehole. but yeah, it's not even limited to roundup anymore (as many species have developed a resistance) so instead of "rounup ready" crops they're making "2.4-D" ready crops... or some shit that probably equally good for you.
which reminds me, nobody should ever by chinese garilec, their agriculture industry is so unregulated... well. just dont.


What is the best solvent / cleaner for round up?

Does anything kill wandering dew?
*jew
1) triple rinse your shit with water.
2) 300ml/10lt glyph with penetrant, MONTHLY followups, for a year.


wheres Axle?
right here!

Safer than Paraquat and Diesel though.
diesel is safe as shit, and the quats are excellent when used correctly.

[Hitcher]

i don't eat mono or polyunsaturated shit

Breathe safely. Once it has been made into margarine or similar spread, the source oil is no longer mono or polyunsaturated.

[AllanB]

Woody Weed Killer, well, kills the shit out of anything green in the garden. It has a warning saying you should not plant foods in the ground for X months after use. Must have some evil shit in it.

Roundup now make a 'water friendly' version so you can kill plants along your river banks. I've not see any eels with upset guts yet but it is early days.

[Woodman]

Threads like this are what keep me sane. Thank you linesmen. Thank you ball boys.

Same. Only reason I go on KB now is to see what laughs the conspiracy guys can give me. Some of their irony is just classic.

[Ocean1]

That's my experience. It's indestructible.

As you were.

I did eventually prevail over a patch of several square metres by dumping lawn clippings on it.

Keeping it covered for about a year and then turning it over and mulching it did the trick.

Now the hairy foot trefoil...

[bogan]

Same. Only reason I go on KB now is to see what laughs the conspiracy guys can give me. Some of their irony is just classic.

I find it ironic that some consider the idea that ingesting a poison is dangerous, constitutes a conspiracy theory :wacko:

[AllanB]

The oddity I always consider when reviewing theories like this one is I am usually pondering the subject matter in the company of a nice wine or beer. We are actively encouraged by society to ingest such products.

[Ocean1]

The oddity I always consider when reviewing theories like this one is I am usually pondering the subject matter in the company of a nice wine or beer. We are actively encouraged by society to ingest such products.

What, you mean like sodium chloride?

[Oakie]

Woody Weed Killer, well, kills the shit out of anything green in the garden. It has a warning saying you should not plant foods in the ground for X months after use. Must have some evil shit in it.

And it'll kill trees too ... especially the ugly ones that come from between the shed on your neighbours place and the fence and then lie on the fence damaging it and blocking the sun. Yep, Woody will kill those trees if you pour some straight Woody down a convenient hole in a cut branch on the tree. Or so I've heard ... :innocent:

[Akzle]

Breathe safely. Once it has been made into margarine or similar spread, the source oil is no longer mono or polyunsaturated.
yeah well i dont put any of that shit in or on me either. although..... there was that one time in hamilton...

Woody Weed Killer, well, kills the shit out of anything green in the garden. It has a warning saying you should not plant foods in the ground for X months after use. Must have some evil shit in it.

Roundup now make a 'water friendly' version so you can kill plants along your river banks. I've not see any eels with upset guts yet but it is early days.

i think that woody is triclop-metsulfuron.

glyph is the only agrichem approved by council/govt for use over/along waterways/drains etc. and we all know that council and government make the best decisions for everyone...

[Katman]

....and we all know that council and government make the best decisions for everyone...

Yeah, what's a little 1080 in our rivers, between friends?

[Akzle]

Yeah, what's a little 1080 in our rivers, between friends?

well... since monoflroacetate is water dissoluble... fuckall.

but the bykill, and all the carcasses falling in the waterways, pose a raft of other problems. not to mention the fact that <80% doesn't actually make it to the ground (regarding aerial application) to kill the "target species"...
fcking jew cunts.

[scumdog]

And it'll kill trees too ... especially the ugly ones that come from between the shed on your neighbours place and the fence and then lie on the fence damaging it and blocking the sun. Yep, Woody will kill those trees if you pour some straight Woody down a convenient hole in a cut branch on the tree. Or so I've heard ... :innocent:


Roundup is great for killing trees too - 4-5 10mm holes filled with Roundup does the trick.

[Maha]

Roundup is great for killing trees too - 4-5 10mm holes filled with Roundup does the trick.

Shhhhhhhhhh katman and Bogan hug them.

[bogan]

Shhhhhhhhhh katman and Bogan hug them.

With logical leaps like that, I think asking you to read the research is a bit of a stretch. Perhaps this sort of thing is more your speed?

http://www.garrettspecialties.com/images/products/poison_prevention_dinosaur_coloring_book-lrg.jpg

[Hitcher]

I find it ironic that some consider the idea that ingesting a poison is dangerous, constitutes a conspiracy theory

All manner of "poisons" are routinely ingested as part of what people eat or drink. Many of these toxins have safe levels. A few may accumulate, eventually reaching a toxic level. Many are metabolised and moved on. Conspiracy theories occur when a hypothesis is developed that is not supported by science. Like vaccinations causing autism, that sort of thing.

[bogan]

All manner of "poisons" are routinely ingested as part of what people eat or drink. Many of these toxins have safe levels. A few may accumulate, eventually reaching a toxic level. Many are metabolised and moved on. Conspiracy theories occur when a hypothesis is developed that is not supported by science. Like vaccinations causing autism, that sort of thing.

Indeed, and it is only prudent to be wary of these and constantly vigilant for any science showing significant likelihood of causing harm. So just how is the hypothesis that ingesting roundup causes digestive bacteria harm, not supported by science? The recent articles I have read show that it is, what have you read lately? To support or dismiss such theories based on anything other than the supporting science shows a lack of sanity; as do 80-odd% of posters so far.

[buggerit]

245t -that is all:oi-grr:

[Hitcher]

Indeed, and it is only prudent to be wary of these and constantly vigilant for any science showing significant likelihood of causing harm. So just how is the hypothesis that ingesting roundup causes digestive bacteria harm, not supported by science? The recent articles I have read show that it is, what have you read lately? To support or dismiss such theories based on anything other than the supporting science shows a lack of sanity; as do 80-odd% of posters so far.

I am still reading on this matter. I am a naturally sceptical individual. There are cases for and against, even in "scientific" literature which does not necessarily include the likes of Scientific American or Woman's Weekly.

[Hitcher]

245t -that is all

Without wanting to appear to be a defender of this product, not all of the bad press that 245-T copped was justified or valid. Associations with Agent Orange being but one of those. However this is a better world without it.

[Maha]

With logical leaps like that, I think asking you to read the research is a bit of a stretch. Perhaps this sort of thing is more your speed?



I don't read the clap-trap articles that Steve puts up, better fun just to wind things up, I still love him though, Romans Sandals or not.

[Katman]

I don't read the clap-trap articles that Steve puts up.......

Get Anne to read them to you if you're struggling.

[bogan]

I don't read the clap-trap articles that Steve puts up, better fun just to wind things up, I still love him though, Romans Sandals or not.

Well as far as wind ups go, that was a pretty piss poor attempt, perhaps you'd have more fun and success winding up one of these?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mVVxZbu4cb4/UI4JTPVvpNI/AAAAAAAAANc/XecxF8shgDI/s1600/WIND+UP.jpg

[Maha]

Well as far as wind ups go, that was a pretty piss poor attempt, perhaps you'd have more fun and success winding up one of these?


Got a reaction (as per usual, you both make it too easy) mission successful I would say.

[bogan]

Got a reaction (as per usual, you both make it too easy) mission successful I would say.

I think the point of a wind-up is to make the other person look silly, you seem to have got it backwards and instead just post inane insults and show your ignorance and stupidity. But go on, keep 'winding us up' if you must; after all, plebs are a good source of amusement :laugh:

[Maha]

I think the point of a wind-up is to make the other person look silly.

No no no I have said it before, that happens way before I post in one of Steve's threads.

[bogan]

No no no

Yes yes yes, that is exactly the point of a windup.

But if you are still determined to do it the other way, carry on.

[Woodman]

To support or dismiss such theories based on anything other than the supporting science shows a lack of sanity.

Isn't this how conspiracy theorists work? Only look for stuff that supports their theory and dismiss everything else as siding with "the man".

[bogan]

Isn't this how conspiracy theorists work? Only look for stuff that supports their theory and dismiss everything else as siding with "the man".

Indeed that is how they 'work', and why I do not consider them sane... and why this isn't a conspiracy theory.

[puddytat]

So this is what happens when you use a genetically modified herbicide tolerant Swede, to feed your cash cows.....

Safe as eh.

http://www.odt.co.nz/regions/southland/316257/cow-deaths-cost-least-400k-so-far

[Akzle]

So this is what happens when you use a genetically modified herbicide tolerant Swede, to feed your cash cows.....

Safe as eh.

http://www.odt.co.nz/regions/southland/316257/cow-deaths-cost-least-400k-so-far

it's ok. it wont affect the milk:lol:

[Katman]

http://www.alternet.org/environment/california-becomes-first-state-label-monsantos-roundup-carcinogen

[nodrog]

soy sauce gives you cancer too.

looks like the housing crisis will sort itself out eventually.

[J.A.W.]

Carcinogenic means cancer causing..

There are many ways this can occur, from diesel fuel particulates lodging in your lungs, to benzine absorption straight through your skin..
But glysophate via ingestion of basic food & water.. ugh.. & NZ guzzles the stuff, more'n most..

[Laava]

Try and find a product prepared for the market that doesn't contain carcinogens.
Google "does sunscreen contain carcinogens?" For instance.

[J.A.W.]

Try and find a product prepared for the market that doesn't contain carcinogens.
Google "does sunscreen contain carcinogens?" For instance.


& "life is a terminal sexually transmitted disease."

So what?
Regular bozos think bike riders are hell-bent on catastrophically cut-short lives - & are to be pitied/feared - anyhow..

[bogan]

http://www.alternet.org/environment/california-becomes-first-state-label-monsantos-roundup-carcinogen

Good shit, hopefully we'll see less put on when crops are coming ready for harvest.

[Katman]

Well I loled.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/CB4p-5Fhd30" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[oldiebutagoody]

Glyphosate: My favourite weapon of choice professionally for over 20 years.

I got to know a thing or two about along the way, and have the student loan to prove it.

What constitutes a poison? Almost anything to excess. Lethal dose of Glyphosate in 50% of cases in rats is ingestion of 19 Litres by Body mass index, the other 50% survived.

The LD50 for Sodium Chloride is 9-11 Litres, (common table salt)

What is Glyphosate and how does it work (kill plants) ? It is a synthetic clone molecule of a naturally occurring plant growth hormone (a salt based molecule, every plant has it). Its method of "killing" plants is to saturate the cells, translocate throughout the entire plant and basically instruct the thing to grow indefinitely, using up all its food reserves until it "grows itself to death". We ingest four differing plant hormones every time we eat a vegetable or piece of fruit.

The "half life" is 48 hours once in contact with soil. I won't explain half life, use google.

The most toxic part of application or use of glyphosate, is the dye used so people can see where they sprayed. I never use it.

Just a note to remember (I specialized in organics/sustainability while studying) just because something is "organic" doesn't mean its not toxic or a poison, and the reverse is also true.

Excuse me now I am off to hug a tree.

Edit: Tradescantia fluminensis eradication with Glyphosate:

Usage rate 150 ml to 15L water. (mix it stronger and it only kills off the foliage, and you want a full translocation to the roots and nodes)
Spray with an organo-silicone penetrant added at 10ml to 15L mixture.
Spray during growth periods, not when it is senescent (not growing, like in the cold months)
Spray three times over three Months, ensuring you get full coverage of the leaves.
The leaves will turn yellowish after first spray, brown and dry after second spray, and the third spray will finish off the whole patch.

It only takes ONE root joint to start the patch again.

[husaberg]

Glyphosate: My favourite weapon of choice professionally for over 20 years.

I got to know a thing or two about along the way, and have the student loan to prove it.

What constitutes a poison? Almost anything to excess. Lethal dose of Glyphosate in 50% of cases in rats is ingestion of 19 Litres by Body mass index, the other 50% survived.

The LD50 for Sodium Chloride is 9-11 Litres, (common table salt)

What is Glyphosate and how does it work (kill plants) ? It is a synthetic clone molecule of a naturally occurring plant growth hormone (a salt based molecule, every plant has it). Its method of "killing" plants is to saturate the cells, translocate throughout the entire plant and basically instruct the thing to grow indefinitely, using up all its food reserves until it "grows itself to death". We ingest four differing plant hormones every time we eat a vegetable or piece of fruit.

The "half life" is 48 hours once in contact with soil. I won't explain half life, use google.

The most toxic part of application or use of glyphosate, is the dye used so people can see where they sprayed. I never use it.

Just a note to remember (I specialized in organics/sustainability while studying) just because something is "organic" doesn't mean its not toxic or a poison, and the reverse is also true.

Excuse me now I am off to hug a tree.

Edit: Tradescantia fluminensis eradication with Glyphosate:

Usage rate 150 ml to 15L water. (mix it stronger and it only kills off the foliage, and you want a full translocation to the roots and nodes)
Spray with an organo-silicone penetrant added at 10ml to 15L mixture.
Spray during growth periods, not when it is senescent (not growing, like in the cold months)
Spray three times over three Months, ensuring you get full coverage of the leaves.
The leaves will turn yellowish after first spray, brown and dry after second spray, and the third spray will finish off the whole patch.

It only takes ONE root joint to start the patch again.
I agree with all of that other than the Penetrant is also likely worse than the Glyphosate as well.
Note Anytime Glyphosate is used on anything shiny or waxy looking a penetrant should be used.
The OP has likely never used Glyphosate or has anything more than a town section.
He likely thinks the world could be fed from organics, rather than the reality, that if everyone was organic, all the world current forested areas would have to be cleared and be devoted to food production

Also since the original patent rights of Glyphosate ran out the price point has reduced by a huge margin.

One of the interesting things I remember about 245T apart from its smell, was how amazingly fast the plants drooped after use, 5 minutes later you could see what you missed.
The other selective herbicides have improved remarkably over the years. No more solvent headaches.

[carbonhed]

I agree with all of that other than the Penetrant is also likely worse than the Glyphosate as well.
Note Anytime Glyphosate is used on anything shiny or waxy looking a penetrant should be used.
The OP has likely never used Glyphosate or has anything more than a town section.
He likely thinks the world could be fed from organics, rather than the reality, that if everyone was organic, all the world current forested areas would have to be cleared and be devoted to food production

Also since the original patent rights of Glyphosate ran out the price point has reduced by a huge margin.

One of the interesting things I remember about 245T apart from its smell, was how amazingly fast the plants drooped after use, 5 minutes later you could see what you missed.
The other selective herbicides have improved remarkably over the years. No more solvent headaches.

Clueless fucking townies eh?

Roundup kicks arse. :laugh:

[oldiebutagoody]

yeah the penetrant can kill even without the Glysophate. I discovered that one day when I forgot to add Glyphosate to the knapsack. Surprised me it was just as effective.

I preferred to use generic branded Glyphosate as it was not colour Dyed, just clear-ish compared to the TM brand Roundup (The red marker dye additive is the most toxic), which was blue for easier tracking. There are also new derivatives of Roundup for using over wet areas such as wetlands and streams as it does not stay active in water like Straight Glyphosate.

I forgot to mention one interesting LD50 statistic:
LD50 for H2O is 21 Litres.


Similar issue with lack of understanding of Agrichemicals occurred a few years ago with the aerial "white spotted tussock moth" eradication campaign. If anyone remembers Auckland being aerially sprayed about 15-16 years ago, and people complaining about the use of BTK and its effects on their allergies or respiratory problems.

BTK (Baccillus thuringiensis) is a bacterial agent that is a naturally occurring organic control specific to Lepidoptera sp. (moths and butterflies)

What turned out to be the irritant culprit was the additive used to disperse it as it was dumped from the plane. BTK got a bad rap due to that debacle.

"float like a Lepidoptera, sting like a Hymenoptera"

[nzspokes]

Glyphosate: My favourite weapon of choice professionally for over 20 years.

I got to know a thing or two about along the way, and have the student loan to prove it.

What constitutes a poison? Almost anything to excess. Lethal dose of Glyphosate in 50% of cases in rats is ingestion of 19 Litres by Body mass index, the other 50% survived.

The LD50 for Sodium Chloride is 9-11 Litres, (common table salt)

What is Glyphosate and how does it work (kill plants) ? It is a synthetic clone molecule of a naturally occurring plant growth hormone (a salt based molecule, every plant has it). Its method of "killing" plants is to saturate the cells, translocate throughout the entire plant and basically instruct the thing to grow indefinitely, using up all its food reserves until it "grows itself to death". We ingest four differing plant hormones every time we eat a vegetable or piece of fruit.

The "half life" is 48 hours once in contact with soil. I won't explain half life, use google.

The most toxic part of application or use of glyphosate, is the dye used so people can see where they sprayed. I never use it.

Just a note to remember (I specialized in organics/sustainability while studying) just because something is "organic" doesn't mean its not toxic or a poison, and the reverse is also true.

Excuse me now I am off to hug a tree.

Edit: Tradescantia fluminensis eradication with Glyphosate:

Usage rate 150 ml to 15L water. (mix it stronger and it only kills off the foliage, and you want a full translocation to the roots and nodes)
Spray with an organo-silicone penetrant added at 10ml to 15L mixture.
Spray during growth periods, not when it is senescent (not growing, like in the cold months)
Spray three times over three Months, ensuring you get full coverage of the leaves.
The leaves will turn yellowish after first spray, brown and dry after second spray, and the third spray will finish off the whole patch.

It only takes ONE root joint to start the patch again.

Hey, what can I use to fuck up Bamboo? Apart from a lighter....

I dont care if it gives the neighbors cancer.

[oldiebutagoody]

Hey, what can I use to fuck up Bamboo? Apart from a lighter....

I dont care if it gives the neighbors cancer.

Chainsaw with an old chain you are planning on trashing anyway. Chop it down to ground level, wait a few weeks until it sprouts afresh then nuke it with weak Glyphosate every month. Slow kill for a complete kill........

You want new growth, and not too much of it. Removing the bulk of the green growth above the ground will eventually starve the roots. Same theory as black plastic over plants to starve them of sun, except bamboo is very quick growing, can push through plastic/mulch etc, and can send runners sideways to find the light.

If you don't have a chainsaw (lots of care required if you are not an expert) a scrubcutter with a toothed circular blade is very efficient but can catch and grab sending you off in unwanted directions if not wary.

Failing that the slow way is cut each stick at ground level with sharp loppers, right near but not through a joint/node. A joint is way to hard to cut through, and too far away from one it just splits instead of cutting, so about 1 cm either side is ideal.

If you ignore the 2 stroke fumes, none of the above will cause your neighbours cancer. But early weekend mornings after a late night doing the chainsaw thing may be hazardous to someone's health.

Gardening advice column is now closed.

[husaberg]

Hey, what can I use to fuck up Bamboo? Apart from a lighter....

I dont care if it gives the neighbors cancer.
Bamboo is a grass so Gylphoshate and penetrant up and a lot of perseverance should work.
Or try Amitrole which is actually designed for bamboo.
http://www.bunnings.co.nz/mcgregor-s-weedout-amitrole-herbicide-200ml_p00119833

Failing all of these get yourself a giant Panda, Bitches love Giant Pandas. Plus your neighbours will be jealous as hell.
320093

[Katman]

If you ignore the 2 stroke fumes, none of the above will cause your neighbours cancer.

The best case scenario is not likely to cause cancer.

How widespread it's use is, may well.

[george formby]

Bamboo is a grass so Gylphoshate and penetrant up and a lot of perseverance should work.
Or try Amitrole which is actually designed for bamboo.
http://www.bunnings.co.nz/mcgregor-s-weedout-amitrole-herbicide-200ml_p00119833

Yup, cut the bamboo down and when it sprouts either of the above with soap powder and a splash of diesel will nail it. Nails wild ginga, too.

[husaberg]

Yup, cut the bamboo down and when it sprouts either of the above with soap powder and a splash of diesel will nail it. Nails wild ginga, too.

You missed the second bit.:laugh:


Clueless fucking townies eh?

Roundup kicks arse. :laugh:
The most ironic bit is the plants that are killed by the herbicides are far mostly 100 times more deadly to Humans and other animals than the herbicide is to Humans and animals.
Nightshade, Ragwort, Foxglove, Hemlock, Tutu

[Akzle]

amitrole for bamboo, metsulfuron for ginger

[nzspokes]

Yup, cut the bamboo down and when it sprouts either of the above with soap powder and a splash of diesel will nail it. Nails wild ginga, too.

Its on the neighbors property. Was wishing for a spray and walk away option.

[oldiebutagoody]

amitrole for bamboo, metsulfuron for ginger

In theory yes.

In practise Glyphosate knocks it back better and doesn't leave it sitting around with white leaves for ages. Amitrole is supposed to disrupt the transfer of nutrients through the nodes, which it does, but really ugly while waiting for it to die back, which it invariably fails to do before new fresh growth comes back.

Amitrole was developed as a woody weed killer. Trees and shrubs with hardwood suits its application, but fast growing green weeds like Tradescants, Bamboos etc can out pace its killing power.

Gingas are always troublesome. Plants can be too. Wild ginger is always best rooted out by hand and thrown in a 44 gallon drum to compost.

Gardening advice column is really closed this time. Promise.




Its on the neighbors property. Was wishing for a spray and walk away option.

Just spray it with Glyphosate then, keep on doing it. Best let them know what you are doing though as its a fine-able breach to spray drift over your neighbours fence. Minor, unless they kick up a fuss if they catch you doing it. It will die back over time.

[Katman]

Gardening advice column is really closed this time. Promise.

Do you work for Monsanto?

[Oakie]

Hey, what can I use to fuck up Bamboo? .

A panda?

10 chars

[Akzle]

In theory yes.

In practise Glyphosate knocks it back better and doesn't leave it sitting around with white leaves for ages. Amitrole is supposed to disrupt the transfer of nutrients through the nodes, which it does, but really ugly while waiting for it to die back, which it invariably fails to do before new fresh growth comes back.

Amitrole was developed as a woody weed killer. Trees and shrubs with hardwood suits its application, but fast growing green weeds like Tradescants, Bamboos etc can out pace its killing power.

Gingas are always troublesome. Plants can be too. Wild ginger is always best rooted out by hand and thrown in a 44 gallon drum to compost.

Gardening advice column is really closed this time. Promise.




Its on the neighbors property. Was wishing for a spray and walk away option.

Just spray it with Glyphosate then, keep on doing it. Best let them know what you are doing though as its a fine-able breach to spray drift over your neighbours fence. Minor, unless they kick up a fuss if they catch you doing it. It will die back over time.

except not. Bamboo is actually grass, which is why glyph works. Im also fair certain glyph is non hormonal.
Amitrole kills the shit out of it. Two doses, 3 at most. Less chemical is always a good thing.

As to ginger, that may work for small patches, but if you've been boosh up russel ways, youll know it aint small patches.
Cutting and pasting is best, but foliar is easiest. But with metsulfuron, that will kill everything so gently gently catchee monkey.

[nzspokes]

Do you work for Monsanto?

Do they make something that kills Bamboo?

[Katman]

Do they make something that kills Bamboo?

I would imagine so. They appear to make something capable of killing any living organism.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-complete-history-of-monsanto-the-worlds-most-evil-corporation/5387964

[nzspokes]

I would imagine so. They appear to make something capable of killing any living organism.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-complete-history-of-monsanto-the-worlds-most-evil-corporation/5387964

Sweet. Want to wipe out some Wandering Dew as well.

Love chemical weed control.

[Akzle]

Sweet. Want to wipe out some Wandering Dew as well.

Love chemical weed control.

JEW

wandering jew, and i can gladly help out here...

the plant is tradescantia though. glyph. 300ml/10lt.

[TheDemonLord]

JEW

wandering jew, and i can gladly help out here...

Insert bad joke about Crematoria and work camps....

[Laava]

Do they make something that kills Bamboo?

Slash it off at ground level and put a sheep there to eat the shoots. Job done. Either that or turn the root mat over with a digger. Spraying it is actually more work in the long run.

[husaberg]

Slash it off at ground level and put a sheep there to eat the shoots. Job done. Either that or turn the root mat over with a digger. Spraying it is actually more work in the long run.

Pretty Sure Azkle prefers Goats

[Akzle]

Pretty Sure Azkle prefers Goats

going back to repping me daily?

Seriously. Kill yourself.

[nzspokes]

Slash it off at ground level and put a sheep there to eat the shoots. Job done. Either that or turn the root mat over with a digger. Spraying it is actually more work in the long run.

Again its not my land. Would have been long gone if it was.

[husaberg]

going back to repping me daily?

Seriously. Kill yourself.

I suggest that you get yourself a big box of tissues.:baby:

[Katman]

I suggest that you get yourself a big box of tissues.:baby:

Are you getting ready to shoot your load?

[husaberg]

Are you getting ready to shoot your load?

Did you mistakenly log into KB instead of grinder again petal.
Maybe its yet another conspiracy you could start a thread about

[scumdog]

Sweet. Want to wipe out some Wandering Dew as well.

Love chemical weed control.

Yup, 'Gardner in a Can'!:woohoo::2thumbsup

[Akzle]

I suggest that you get yourself a big box of tissues.:baby:

i suggest you put the muzzle of a 12ga in your mouth and pull the trigger

[husaberg]

i suggest you put the muzzle of a 12ga in your mouth and pull the trigger

Merely reflection of self...............

[TheDemonLord]

For once - it looks like Katman has a point - It does look like Roundup is not as safe as it's manufacturer claims:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3955666/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4392553/

The gist of both articles being that the usage of GM crops that are resistant to Roundup has lead to an increase in its use, however Weeds are developing a resistance to Roundup, requiring more to be used. The net result is that the crops we consume have larger amounts of Roundup residue on them - leading to issues particulalry in the long term (for example in a 24 hr period, 63 ppm was toxic to Rat cells, but over a 2 year exposure, only a 0.1 ppm was enough to cause issues)

And just to prove that I'm fair in my review of the articles - I'll post this excerpt that will have certain people creaming themselves:


However, Roundup was found in this experiment to be 125 times more toxic than glyphosate. Moreover, despite its reputation, Roundup was by far the most toxic among the herbicides and insecticides tested. This inconsistency between scientific fact and industrial claim may be attributed to huge economic interests, which have been found to falsify health risk assessments and delay health policy decisions

[nzspokes]

For once - it looks like Katman has a point - It does look like Roundup is not as safe as it's manufacturer claims:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3955666/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4392553/

The gist of both articles being that the usage of GM crops that are resistant to Roundup has lead to an increase in its use, however Weeds are developing a resistance to Roundup, requiring more to be used. The net result is that the crops we consume have larger amounts of Roundup residue on them - leading to issues particulalry in the long term (for example in a 24 hr period, 63 ppm was toxic to Rat cells, but over a 2 year exposure, only a 0.1 ppm was enough to cause issues)

And just to prove that I'm fair in my review of the articles - I'll post this excerpt that will have certain people creaming themselves:

Does it kill Bamboo?

[Katman]

For once - it looks like Katman has a point -

Get used to it.

[TheDemonLord]

Get used to it.

You know - what you should realise is that if there is sufficient proof for claims, most of the people who ridicule your more outlandish flights of fancy would be persuaded. The fact that we aren't is a testament to the lack of sufficient proof.

Also - considering its the first valid claim in 2 years of my being here - I'll pass on the getting used to it at this stage....

[TheDemonLord]

Does it kill Bamboo?

And healthy human cells with long term exposure.

[nzspokes]

And healthy human cells with long term exposure.

Wasnt planning on drinking it.

[Katman]

The fact that we aren't is a testament to the lack of sufficient proof.


Or it could be testament to your blindness.

[carbonhed]

For once - it looks like Katman has a point - It does look like Roundup is not as safe as it's manufacturer claims:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3955666/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4392553/

The gist of both articles being that the usage of GM crops that are resistant to Roundup has lead to an increase in its use, however Weeds are developing a resistance to Roundup, requiring more to be used. The net result is that the crops we consume have larger amounts of Roundup residue on them - leading to issues particulalry in the long term (for example in a 24 hr period, 63 ppm was toxic to Rat cells, but over a 2 year exposure, only a 0.1 ppm was enough to cause issues)

And just to prove that I'm fair in my review of the articles - I'll post this excerpt that will have certain people creaming themselves:

Activist pseudo science.

Resistance is always something to be monitored but if you had a problem the last thing you'd do is pour more of the same thing on. There's literally hundreds of herbicides to choose from.

And a hundred times more toxic than not toxic is what precisely?

One of these tests focused on the spreader/penetrant in Roundup which was a detergent/soap derived from an organic base... naturally if you bathe foetal cells in a solution of this it's going to disrupt the fats in the cell walls... maybe you should stop covering yourself in bubbles every evening? Or in Katman's case cut down on the pumice and goose fat.

[Woodman]

Get used to it.

Gracious as ever.

[Katman]

Gracious as ever.

I wouldn't call it that.

[Oakie]

Yup, 'Gardner in a Can'!:woohoo::2thumbsup

Our maintenance boys at work refer to it as 'the liquid hoe'. The hippies at work haven't caught on to that yet but they like their nice weed free flower gardens.

[husaberg]

Gracious as ever.

You remember that movie with Mel Gibson when he finally has a conspiracy that true.

[Berries]

Does it kill Bamboo?
Oh no, not the baby deer?

[Woodman]

Oh no, not the baby deer?

I thought Bamboo was Yogi Bears little friend?

[nzspokes]

I thought Bamboo was Yogi Bears little friend?

If he is for hire Im interested. As long as he can eat a lot of Bamboo.

[TheDemonLord]

Activist pseudo science.

Resistance is always something to be monitored but if you had a problem the last thing you'd do is pour more of the same thing on. There's literally hundreds of herbicides to choose from.

And a hundred times more toxic than not toxic is what precisely?

One of these tests focused on the spreader/penetrant in Roundup which was a detergent/soap derived from an organic base... naturally if you bathe foetal cells in a solution of this it's going to disrupt the fats in the cell walls... maybe you should stop covering yourself in bubbles every evening? Or in Katman's case cut down on the pumice and goose fat.

I wouldn't be so quick to call it pseudo science - I did a bit more digging:

The lead author is working at Kings College in London (not renowned for Pseudo science) - his profile is here: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robin_Mesnage - 30 publications and over 400 Citations, most in the last 2 years.

Interestingly enough, the main paper I cited HAS been retracted (wasn't listed on the original article, nor in any of the articles that cited it, so I missed it) however the Retraction statement is interesting, particularly this excerpt:


Ultimately, the results presented (while not incorrect) are inconclusive, and therefore do not reach the threshold of publication for Food and Chemical Toxicology.

Full retraction statement is here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691512005637 which can be summarised by saying that the sample size of rats tested was not large enough to be able to determine between the naturally occurring rates of disease compared to the rates found in the study.

[carbonhed]

I wouldn't be so quick to call it pseudo science - I did a bit more digging:

The lead author is working at Kings College in London (not renowned for Pseudo science) - his profile is here: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robin_Mesnage - 30 publications and over 400 Citations, most in the last 2 years.

Interestingly enough, the main paper I cited HAS been retracted (wasn't listed on the original article, nor in any of the articles that cited it, so I missed it) however the Retraction statement is interesting, particularly this excerpt:



Full retraction statement is here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691512005637 which can be summarised by saying that the sample size of rats tested was not large enough to be able to determine between the naturally occurring rates of disease compared to the rates found in the study.

Reading further into your links I'd say "activist pseudo science" is bang on the money. It's the same crew associated with Seralini and it's just garbage research. Check out some of the letters WRT the retraction for a more detailed description of it's limitations.

Love to know who is funding the "research".

[tri boy]

Forget glyo for having any effects on people.
Try a good dose of Ripcord for a mind numbing thrill.
Just blasted a big ol wasp nest with it.
Neurol toxin is the shizz.

Fucked them all up in about 30secs.:ar15:

[F5 Dave]

Has anyone seen some boobs? Like in real life?

[puddytat]

Reading further into your links I'd say "activist pseudo science" is bang on the money. It's the same crew associated with Seralini and it's just garbage research. Check out some of the letters WRT the retraction for a more detailed description of it's limitations.

Love to know who is funding the "research".

Seralini gets some of his funding from crowd sourcing......where do you get yours?

Just watched an ADR documentary from Germany about Glyphosphate which also pointed out that its not only that in Roundup, but it is a cocktail of other deadlier chemicals as well...but it was on RT so no doubt its a load of socialist greenie new age activist pseudo science propaganda.

[eldog]

Has anyone seen some boobs? Like in real life?

Breast cancer sucks

[F5 Dave]

Jeez you're a downer tonight.

[eldog]

Had a crap day at work, worked all day today till 6.30 to help customer out.
now having to work tomorrow for what I planned today.

now I miss out on the Coro loop and yes it been a while since I have seen boobS:bye:

[TheDemonLord]

Had a crap day at work, worked all day today till 6.30 to help customer out.
now having to work tomorrow for what I planned today.

now I miss out on the Coro loop and yes it been a while since I have seen boobS:bye:

http://images.lmgtfy.com/?q=naked+boobs

You are welcome

[TheDemonLord]

Reading further into your links I'd say "activist pseudo science" is bang on the money. It's the same crew associated with Seralini and it's just garbage research. Check out some of the letters WRT the retraction for a more detailed description of it's limitations.

Love to know who is funding the "research".

I disagree with the title of Activist Pseudo Science:

1: Research was done at a reputable institution
2: The research was published in a peer review paper
3: Upon further critique, the research team complied and submitted all their Raw data for analysis
4: The review indicated that although the results were inconclusive due to insufficient sample sizes, the data was not incorrect.

These are not the halmarks of Pseudo Science - which include Lack of openess, unwillingness to submit to scrutiny/peer review etc.

You might call this sloppy science or poor science, but IMO it doesn't meet the requirements of being labelled Pseudo science.

I'll even concede that looking at the other papers published by some of the scientists that either they have an acute interest in Roundup or they have an Axe to grind

[carbonhed]

I disagree with the title of Activist Pseudo Science:

1: Research was done at a reputable institution
2: The research was published in a peer review paper
3: Upon further critique, the research team complied and submitted all their Raw data for analysis
4: The review indicated that although the results were inconclusive due to insufficient sample sizes, the data was not incorrect.

These are not the halmarks of Pseudo Science - which include Lack of openess, unwillingness to submit to scrutiny/peer review etc.

You might call this sloppy science or poor science, but IMO it doesn't meet the requirements of being labelled Pseudo science.

I'll even concede that looking at the other papers published by some of the scientists that either they have an acute interest in Roundup or they have an Axe to grind

All right... sheesh. It's sloppy, poor and they've got an axe to grind... you win!

[TheDemonLord]

All right... sheesh. It's sloppy, poor and they've got an axe to grind... you win!

I see the words 'might' and 'either' escape your notice.....

[carbonhed]

I see the words 'might' and 'either' escape your notice.....

"Richard Horton, editor-in-chief of The Lancet, has written bleakly: “The case against science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue.”

Have you not heard these rumblings?

We shouldn't be giving these scumbags the benefit of "might" or "either". They should be ridiculed.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4705093.ece

[husaberg]

Reading further into your links I'd say "activist pseudo science" is bang on the money. It's the same crew associated with Seralini and it's just garbage research. Check out some of the letters WRT the retraction for a more detailed description of it's limitations.

Love to know who is funding the "research".
The research was paid for by CRIIGEN
Séralini co-founded CRIIGEN in 1999 because he judged that studies on GM food safety were inadequate.

The two-year toxicity study, which cost €3.2 million, was conducted at the University of Caen by Séralini and seven colleagues. It had been funded by and run with the collaboration of CRIIGEN

Even prior to this study he has had issues with his use of data.

In 2009 the Séralini lab published another study (Séralini 2009), which re-analyzed toxicity data for NK 603 (glyphosate resistant), MON 810 and MON 863 strains.[15] The data included three rat-feeding studies published by Monsanto scientists on MON 810.[16][17][18] This study concluded that the three crops caused liver, kidney and heart damage in the rats.[15] The EFSA concluded that the authors' claims were not supported by their data, that many of the statistical criticisms of Séralini 2007 applied to Séralini 2009, and that the study included no new information that would change the EFSA's conclusions.[19] The French Haut Conseil des biotechnologies (High Council of Biotechnologies Scientific Committee or HCB) reviewed Séralini 2009 and concluded that it "presents no admissible scientific element likely to ascribe any haematological, hepatic or renal toxicity to the three re-analysed GMOs." The HCB questioned the authors' independence, noting that, in 2010, the "body to which the authors belong" displayed material from a 2008 Austrian anti-GM study, the results of which had been acknowledged as mistaken by the study's authors.[20] Food Standards Australia New Zealand concluded that the results of Séralini 2009 were due to chance alone



Before 2012 Séralini had published other peer-reviewed papers that concluded there were health risks to GM foods.
In 2007 he and two others published a Greenpeace-funded study (Séralini 2007).
It concluded that MON 863, a corn rootworm-resistant Bt corn developed by Monsanto, caused health problems in rats, including weight changes, triglyceride level increases in females, changes in urine composition in males, and reduced function or organ damage in the liver, kidney, adrenal glands, heart and haematopoietic system.
The European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) concluded that all blood chemistry and organ weight values fell within the normal range for control animals, and that the paper had used incorrect statistical methods.The French Commission du Génie Biomoléculaire (AFBV) also criticized the study's conclusions

When this study was retracted by the publisher this is what they had to say.


The retraction statement could have been clearer, and should have referred to the relevant COPE guidelines. The data are inconclusive, therefore the claim (i.e., conclusion) that Roundup Ready maize NK603 and/or the Roundup herbicide have a link to cancer is unreliable. Dr. Séralini deserves the benefit of the doubt that this unreliable conclusion was reached in honest error. The review of the data made it clear that there was no misconduct. However, to be very clear, it is the entire paper, with the claim that there is a definitive link between GMO and cancer that is being retracted. Dr. Séralini has been very vocal that he believes his conclusions are correct. In our analysis, his conclusions cannot be claimed from the data presented in this article.


The ethics committee of the French National Centre for Scientific Research wrote that Seralini's public-relations approach was "inappropriate for a high-quality and objective scientific debate."[3] Science journalist Carl Zimmer criticized the science journalists who participated.[32] Cosmos Magazine's Elizabeth Finkel said that the confidentiality clause had allowed Seralini's story to "prance unfettered" before second opinions arrived

I note there is two separate processes involved here.
(1) the use of Roundup on the crop
(2) The Monsanto GE modified Corn that was subsequently used.


A chief criticism was that each part of the study had too few rats to obtain statistically useful data,
particularly because the strain of rat used, Sprague Dawley, develops tumors at a high rate over its lifetime.


Following widespread criticism by scientists, Food and Chemical Toxicology retracted the paper in November 2013 after the authors refused to withdraw it


Plus we have a bit of a showman not normally what you expect from a respected scientist.

At the press conference, Séralini emphasized the study's potential cancer implications, and photographs from the article of treated rats with large tumors were widely circulated by the media.The French Society of Toxicologic Pathology pointed out that, because such tumors are commonly found in older rats, the inclusion in the article of those images from treated rats, without also showing control rats, was misleading


Séralini also released a book and documentary film about the study in conjunction with the press conference


The study was criticized by various regulatory authorities and scientists. With few exceptions, the scientific community dismissed the study and called for a more rigorous peer-review system in scientific journals

[bogan]

I note there is two separate processes involved here.
(1) the use of Roundup on the crop
(2) The Monsanto GE modified Corn that was subsequently used.






Plus we have a bit of a showman not normally what you expect from a respected scientist.

So clearly the next step is to do a more thorough study/test/investigation to validate or invalidate his hypothesis from the first. His research gives a strong indication towards that hypothesis, unfortunately it is a long term study, and unfortunately he didn't perform robust enough tests to begin with.

He might be many other things, but it is objectively utterly irrelevant unless you have some subjective faith based notion on this issue which prevents rational discussion about his science clouding your judgement.

[husaberg]

So clearly the next step is to do a more thorough study/test/investigation to validate or invalidate his hypothesis from the first. His research gives a strong indication towards that hypothesis, unfortunately it is a long term study, and unfortunately he didn't perform robust enough tests to begin with.

He might be many other things, but it is objectively utterly irrelevant unless you have some subjective faith based notion on this issue which prevents rational discussion about his science clouding your judgement.

I don't agree, firsty he used a breed strain of rats that are prone to producing tumours naturally.
He never kept details (or never released them)on the feeding level of the control vs the study samples. For a professional study its either pretty shoddy or it was designed to be misleading.
Its well known rats develop tumors when overfeed, which is why feed levels are meant to be documented and rigorously followed and controlled

The real kicker though he never followed up and redid his study. The original was released in 2012 he has had plenty of time to repeat his study. One with the factors that he was admonished on removed.
Yet he hasn't ,or if he has it never gave the results he wanted and wasn't published.

As for my thoughts on him being a showman it is relevant as a scientist lets the facts do the talking not posing for photo ops with rats with tumours

^ Nature, September 2012: "With such strong claims and the predictably large effect they will have on public opinion, researchers should take care how they present their findings to the public and the media. They should spell out their results clearly; emphasize the limitations and caveats; and make it clear that the data still need to be assessed, and replicated, by the scientific community. That didn't happen. The paper was promoted in a public-relations offensive, with a related book and film set for release this week. Furthermore, journalists wishing to report the research had to sign confidentiality agreements that prevented them from contacting other scientists for comment on the paper until after the embargo had expired. Some, to their credit, refused, or accepted and then revisited the story critically once their hands were no longer tied by these outrageous restrictions. The result was the exclusion of critical comment in many of the breaking stories — the ones that most people will rememberIf you look at his history he has a documented history of inaccurately presenting data and using said data in a not very subjective way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A9ralini_affair


In 2009 the Séralini lab published another study (Séralini 2009), which re-analyzed toxicity data for NK 603 (glyphosate resistant), MON 810 and MON 863 strains. The data included three rat-feeding studies published by Monsanto scientists on MON 810.[16][17][18] This study concluded that the three crops caused liver, kidney and heart damage in the rats. The EFSA concluded that the authors' claims were not supported by their data, that many of the statistical criticisms of Séralini 2007 applied to Séralini 2009, and that the study included no new information that would change the EFSA's conclusions. The French Haut Conseil des biotechnologies (High Council of Biotechnologies Scientific Committee or HCB) reviewed Séralini 2009 and concluded that it "presents no admissible scientific element likely to ascribe any haematological, hepatic or renal toxicity to the three re-analysed GMOs." The HCB questioned the authors' independence, noting that, in 2010, the "body to which the authors belong" displayed material from a 2008 Austrian anti-GM study, the results of which had been acknowledged as mistaken by the study's authors. Food Standards Australia New Zealand concluded that the results of Séralini 2009 were due to chance alone

[bogan]

I don't agree, firsty he used a breed strain of rats that are prone to producing tumours naturally.
He never kept details (or never released them)on the feeding level of the control vs the study samples. For a professional study its either pretty shoddy or it was designed to be misleading.
Its well known rats develop tumors when overfeed, which is why feed levels are meant to be documented and rigorously followed and controlled

The real kicker though he never followed up and redid his study the original was released in 2012 he has had plenty of time to repeat his study with the factors removed but he hasn't or if he has it never gave the results he wanted and wasn't published.

If you look at his history he has a documented history of inaccurately presenting data and using said data in a not very subjective way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A9ralini_affair

Exactly, the study was flawed, and should be redone. Anyone can redo it, it doesn't just have to be the original author.

[husaberg]

Exactly, the study was flawed, and should be redone. Anyone can redo it, it doesn't just have to be the original author.

But would it be received with the same sensationalism, would it change anyone's beliefs in the original flawed study.

[bogan]

But would it be received with the same sensationalism, would it change anyone's beliefs in the original flawed study.

Does it matter? Step 1 is get the science correct.

[husaberg]

Does it matter? Step 1 is get the science correct.

Step one for a logical thinker perhaps, step one for a conspiracy believer is create doubt, ignore any further studies that show the doubt to be misplaced then refer to the flawed original.
I do agree it should be done, it likely has been done but will never receive any publicity, as not causing tumours is not news or book or movie worthy.
If Monsanto did it people the conspiracy believers would say they are too biased.
Do you have any suitable rats? looks like we need about 200 at least.
I should make it clear I was never in favour of Roundup ready crops.
Nor did I support the dairy cows eating the sprayed (but not yet browned off) pasture this was actively promoted a few years back. (this was actually shown later to potentially cause withholding residue issues and was withdrawn as a label use)

[carbonhed]

Does it matter? Step 1 is get the science correct.

Don't think that's how Seralini works.

Step 1 in activist science is "draw your conclusion". All other things follow.

[husaberg]

Don't think that's how Seralini works.

Step 1 in activist science is "draw your conclusion". All other things follow.
He does get around.
http://www.ruralnewsgroup.co.nz/wine-grower/wg-general-news/the-trouble-with-glyphosate

All based on his flawed Data
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1503/S00259/un-pesticide-warning-adds-to-risks-for-new-zealand-exports.htm

[Ocean1]

Don't think that's how Seralini works.

Step 1 in activist science is "draw your conclusion". All other things follow.

It's rarely that coherent.

In the absence of adequate logic symbology...

Ooh, look, a bogeyman!

Bad bogeyman!!!

[carbonhed]

He does get around.
http://www.ruralnewsgroup.co.nz/wine-grower/wg-general-news/the-trouble-with-glyphosate

All based on his flawed Data
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1503/S00259/un-pesticide-warning-adds-to-risks-for-new-zealand-exports.htm

That ruralnewsgroup piece has so much shit in one short article it makes you despair :facepalm:

[bogan]

Step one for a logical thinker perhaps, step one for a conspiracy believer is create doubt, ignore any further studies that show the doubt to be misplaced then refer to the flawed original.
I do agree it should be done, it likely has been done but will never receive any publicity, as not causing tumours is not news or book or movie worthy.
If Monsanto did it people the conspiracy believers would say they are too biased.
Do you have any suitable rats? looks like we need about 200 at least.
I should make it clear I was never in favour of Roundup ready crops.
Nor did I support the dairy cows eating the sprayed (but not yet browned off) pasture this was actively promoted a few years back. (this was actually shown later to potentially cause withholding residue issues and was withdrawn as a label use)


Don't think that's how Seralini works.

Step 1 in activist science is "draw your conclusion". All other things follow.

Lets not get so carried away lambasting others for skipping step one that we do so ourselves, eh!

[husaberg]

Lets not get so carried away lambasting others for skipping step one that we do so ourselves, eh!

please explain As before I drew a conclusion, I actually read the relevant articles. I went into it with an open mind as it initially seemed reputable and was published.

[bogan]

please explain As before I drew a conclusion, I actually read the relevant articles. I went into it with an open mind as it initially seemed reputable and was published.

And is the science correct? no, it needs further investigation; just as you accuse that bloke of doing, you are also drawing a long bow...

[husaberg]

And is the science correct? no, it needs further investigation; just as you accuse that bloke of doing, you are also drawing a long bow...

I didn't accuse him I suggested it could be a logical assumption considering his past efforts based on the fact he was well qualified to know what was required to produce a valid scientific conclusion.:bleh:
For all we know the study has been done, its just not NEWSworthy

[bogan]

I didn't accuse him I suggested it could be a logical assumption considering his past efforts based on the fact he was well qualified to know what was required to produce a valid scientific conclusion.:bleh:

Like I said, step one is the science; that^ waffle, is not.

[husaberg]

Like I said, step one is the science; that^ waffle, is not.

I think you are underestimating the power of Waffle.
Have you even looked to see if the study has been repeated?

[bogan]

I think you are underestimating the power of Waffle.
Have you even looked to see if the study has been repeated?

Like I said, rational people focus on the science, others are swayed by waffle.

That's better. No, it hasn't; hence us being stuck on step one.

[husaberg]

Like I said, rational people focus on the science, others are swayed by waffle.

That's better. No, it hasn't; hence us being stuck on step one.

How exactly do you know it hasn't?

[bogan]

How exactly do you know it hasn't?

I've looked, obviously.

[husaberg]

I've looked, obviously.

Its a lot harder pretty hard to prove the absence of information, Ie logically just because you couldn't find it doesn't mean it hasn't be done.

[bogan]

Its a lot harder pretty hard to prove the absence of information, Ie logically just because you couldn't find it doesn't mean it hasn't be done.

Irrelevant, either way we are still at step one, get the science correct. How are you not understanding this simple point?

[husaberg]

Irrelevant, either way we are still at step one, get the science correct. How are you not understanding this simple point?

I fully understand it, but I think you are missing the point entirely.

[bogan]

I fully understand it, but I think you are missing the point entirely.

If you understood it, you wouldn't be drawing conclusions. Just like that bloke with the article...

As for the point I'm allegedly missing, perhaps you'd like to make it?

[husaberg]

If you understood it, you wouldn't be drawing conclusions. Just like that bloke with the article...

As for the point I'm allegedly missing, perhaps you'd like to make it?

How about you dismount off your high horse for a second and actually read what I wrote.

After you have done so read this for giggles
http://www.truthwiki.org/glyphosate/
Whoever wrote this needs a good kicking, it seems they are unable to understand the difference between 245T and 2-4D.

[Akzle]

Irrelevant, either way we are still at step one, get the science correct. How are you not understanding this simple point?

oo. I can explain this one:

he's a fucking idiot.

[bogan]

How about you dismount off your high horse for a second and actually read what I wrote.

After you have done so read this for giggles
http://www.truthwiki.org/glyphosate/
Whoever wrote this needs a good kicking, it seems they are unable to understand the difference between 245T and 2-4D.

Speaking of horses, looks like you've found one to go for a gish gallop on.

Let me know if you get up to step one though...

[husaberg]

Speaking of horses, looks like you've found one to go for a gish gallop on.

Let me know if you get up to step one though...


I asked ages ago who would do such study? as the most interested party Monsanto would unlikely to be believed and the party that did the original study is obviously not interested or they would have done so by now. If you recall I even asked you if you had enough rats.
I haven't gish galloped anything, all my points were about the subject I never tried to confuse the information by changing the subject, but you just did.

[puddytat]

http://www.truthwiki.org/glyphosate/
Whoever wrote this needs a good kicking, it seems they are unable to understand the difference between 245T and 2-4D.

What ...that one has been banned because it fucks up shit a lot & that the other fucks up shit not quite so badly?

The fact of the matter is that Monsanto has never done tests of its own to disprove the findings of the EU.
its banned for a reason. Its fucking dodgy when used in intensive farming systems.
If people don't agree well keep on eating that dodgy shit from your local supermarket.

[husaberg]

What ...that one has been banned because it fucks up shit a lot & that the other fucks up shit not quite so badly?

The fact of the matter is that Monsanto has never done tests of its own to disprove the findings of the EU.
its banned for a reason. Its fucking dodgy when used in intensive farming systems.
If people don't agree well keep on eating that dodgy shit from your local supermarket.

Monsanto are actually required to do the initial testing on new products that's how the system works and that's what happens in the old USA anyway.
Pretty sure seeing as you worked on a farm you know 245T and 24D are entirely different beasts and both are Dow products rather than Monsanto to boot.:laugh:

[puddytat]

Nah, we never touch the stuff. :innocent:
Monsanto might have done some initial testing (or Dow or Bayer or whoever) of the product before release ,but have done no tests on how it effects micro organisms & how it does not break down easily & is present in most people & women's breast milk.(or they may have & not released the findings or even actually really tried to do proper scientific tests?)
The problem is as I see it ,is the blanket spraying of not only roundup ,but several other sprays used on the same crop as well.
This shit never existed until the green revolution after WW2....all made outta petrochemicals, that do not naturally occur in the ecosystem. Life as we know it being bombarded with these unnatural chemicals & we are unable to adapt & evolve to them, at the pace they're being poured down our throats.
Is it coincidence that many of the syndromes that effect society today have also only become apparent since the introduction of pesticides & herbicides?


Nah, surely not. The FDA says its safe so it must be. The companies told them so....:oi-grr:

[husaberg]

Nah, we never touch the stuff. :innocent:
Monsanto might have done some initial testing (or Dow or Bayer or whoever) of the product before release ,but have done no tests on how it effects micro organisms & how it does not break down easily & is present in most people & women's breast milk.(or they may have & not released the findings or even actually really tried to do proper scientific tests?)
The problem is as I see it ,is the blanket spraying of not only roundup ,but several other sprays used on the same crop as well.
This shit never existed until the green revolution after WW2....all made outta petrochemicals, that do not naturally occur in the ecosystem. Life as we know it being bombarded with these unnatural chemicals & we are unable to adapt & evolve to them, at the pace they're being poured down our throats.
Is it coincidence that many of the syndromes that effect society today have also only become apparent since the introduction of pesticides & herbicides?


Nah, surely not. The FDA says its safe so it must be. The companies told them so....:oi-grr:

Its needs to be remembered that the NZ use of Round-up is very different to the states and other GE crop using Round up ready farming systems.
The GE modified "round up ready" crops are blanket sprayed with round up as they are tolerant of its use.
Also some crops are sprayed overseas with Glyphosate herbicides to lower the wilt times (Sugar for example), this doesn't happen in NZ with food products like it does overseas
Glyphosate is pretty much only used in NZ for spraying out pastures and waste areas.

[puddytat]

Well the plants themselves may well be tolerant to roundup, but many of the beneficial bacteria & fungi living in the soil are not.....without those beneficial greeblies to keep the bad ones in check you get what they are struggling with in the US . For example the fungi destroying corn & the "sudden death" syndrome of soya.
But the chemical company will just sell you another spray to add to the mix.
When these products are exported they come with those pathogens. There are many areas that now have these issues as the pathogens come with the seed & are introduced into areas that didn't have these problems before.
It seems to me that if problems are arising due to excessive spray use, then you have to be either callous to use it & stupid to continue using it .
Add in the TPPA & we'll be facing pressure from the US if its ever ratified & next thing we'll have them overriding our legislation & ramming more of their shit down your throats....

Most of this will no doubt go in one ear & out the other. Its a Baby Boomer thing. Just like the warnings about
Antibiotics.

(nothing personal Husa).

[husaberg]

Well the plants themselves may well be tolerant to roundup, but many of the beneficial bacteria & fungi living in the soil are not.....without those beneficial greeblies to keep the bad ones in check you get what they are struggling with in the US . For example the fungi destroying corn & the "sudden death" syndrome of soya.
But the chemical company will just sell you another spray to add to the mix.
When these products are exported they come with those pathogens. There are many areas that now have these issues as the pathogens come with the seed & are introduced into areas that didn't have these problems before.
It seems to me that if problems are arising due to excessive spray use, then you have to be either callous to use it & stupid to continue using it .
Add in the TPPA & we'll be facing pressure from the US if its ever ratified & next thing we'll have them overriding our legislation & ramming more of their shit down your throats....

Most of this will no doubt go in one ear & out the other. Its a Baby Boomer thing. Just like the warnings about
Antibiotics.

(nothing personal Husa).

I actually totally agree the over use of herbicides and I personally was concerned and have never agreed with the USA's over use of antibiotics, BST also Monensin (Rumensin) etc in US AG systems.
Plus the no rotation monocrop systems used extensively overseas if unsustainable long term.
If you want a prime US example of this look into the almond industries problems with pollination and unsustainable water use.
I also disagree with the general over use of Nitrogen and phosphate overseas.
But that said on the whole NZ generally has got the sustainable land use rules checks and balances right.
We held off on the GE crops. We generally stuck to a low cost low input pastoral system. We also included extensive restriction on Antibiotics and fertiliser and herbicide use.
As a former grazier. I also recognised early on what was happening with avermectin/ivermectin resistance. but all these issues above are from over use under regulation rather then a chemicals or the farming themselves

[carbonhed]

For example the fungi destroying corn & the "sudden death" syndrome of soya.


This is from Dr Don Huber?

Goss's Wilt disease? And Fusarium solani on the Soy?

The mystery organism? Is it a virus, is it a fungus, is it a prion?

Has he actually produced it yet?

[Ocean1]

Is it coincidence that many of the syndromes that effect society today have also only become apparent since the introduction of pesticides & herbicides?

Of course not. They've got a lot to answer for.

The having-enough-to-eat syndrome was completely unheard of before pesticides and herbicides.

[pete376403]

Of course not. They've got a lot to answer for.

The having-enough-to-eat syndrome was completely unheard of before pesticides and herbicides.
And now with pesticides and herbicides it has been replaced with the over-production-and-subsequent-wastage-of-food syndrome and it's related obesity epidemics


http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/12/02/14804.aspx

[Ocean1]

And now with pesticides and herbicides it has been replaced with the over-production-and-subsequent-wastage-of-food syndrome and it's related obesity epidemics


http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/12/02/14804.aspx

Big Farma, eh?

Cunts.

[puddytat]

This is from Dr Don Huber?

Goss's Wilt disease? And Fusarium solani on the Soy?

The mystery organism? Is it a virus, is it a fungus, is it a prion?

Has he actually produced it yet?
No it was from the ADR doco from Gemany....& probably its all three of the above. Havn't heard of Huber, but no doubt you don't like him .


Of course not. They've got a lot to answer for.

The having-enough-to-eat syndrome was completely unheard of before pesticides and herbicides.
Wow you agreed!
I don't depute that technology has improved production of foodstuffs. Though being a luddite I am of course Organic.

Big Farma, eh?

Cunts.

Wow ! Glad to see your in agreement again.....

[TheDemonLord]

Is it coincidence that many of the syndromes that effect society today have also only become apparent since the introduction of pesticides & herbicides?


I'd like to point out that there have been a multitude of changes in the time period presented. We are living nearly 20 years longer - considering that in terms of our Evolutionary path we used to live till about 30ish, and only in the last 500 years or so have we been starting to live longer, and in the last century our Life expectancy has almost doubled. Mix in our methods for diagnosing and discovering conditions has improved massively.

Pesticides and Herbicides may be a contributing factor, but so much has changed that I think it's a tad unfair to lay all the blame on one place.

[Katman]

Pesticides and Herbicides may be a contributing factor, but so much has changed that I think it's a tad unfair to lay all the blame on one place.

Yeah, let's not forget about the vaccines.

[carbonhed]

No it was from the ADR doco from Gemany....& probably its all three of the above. Havn't heard of Huber, but no doubt you don't like him .
.

Oh you'll love Don Huber... just remember to place a bowl under your chin to catch the drool.

http://thewatchers.adorraeli.com/2011/04/04/plant-disease-raises-questions-on-modified-crops/

https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/glp-facts/don-huber-science-still-looking-for-purdue-professors-gmo-pathogen-time-bomb/

[TheDemonLord]

Yeah, let's not forget about the vaccines.

Too bad that your condition is as old as humanity itself :msn-wink:

[puddytat]

Pesticides and Herbicides may be a contributing factor, but so much has changed that I think it's a tad unfair to lay all the blame on one place.


Sorry to give the impression that I was that thick.....I was not laying the blame on 'them" alone.
They are just one of many things that cause their share of the problems that we face.
We can keep on denying that there is nothing wrong with the current situation & point out the good bits, but it is really just burying our heads in the sand & is not solving the issues.

[Ocean1]

Sorry to give the impression that I was that thick.....I was not laying the blame on 'them" alone.
They are just one of many things that cause their share of the problems that we face.
We can keep on denying that there is nothing wrong with the current situation & point out the good bits, but it is really just burying our heads in the sand & is not solving the issues.

Only nobody's actually said there's no bad bits. Just that the good bits are far, far larger than the bad bits, and for the moment there's no viable alternatives.

And when there are they'll be coming from the same source you blame for all those problems: those responsible for the existing options.

Focusing on the negatives of human behavior isn't just ignoring more than half of the facts, nor is it simply highlighting anthropogenic issues, it's just symptomatic of an embedded and intractable misanthropy.

[Katman]

And when there are they'll be coming from the same source you blame for all those problems: those responsible for the existing options.

I disagree.

The real solutions will more likely come from those whose primary motivation is not greed.

[mashman]

Focusing on the negatives of human behavior isn't just ignoring more than half of the facts, nor is it simply highlighting anthropogenic issues, it's just symptomatic of an embedded and intractable misanthropy.

No it isn't. Oh great irony: "embedded and intractable misanthropy". Such a positive outlook in regards to ones' fellow man :niceone:. It's symptomatic of people wanting an issue in their lives addressed that isn't being. Nothing negative there, just a bunch of facts. Some people have multiple issues.

Your slippers do look nice and comfy though.

[Ocean1]

I disagree.

The real solutions will more likely come from those whose primary motivation is not greed.

Well that'd fit well with your own rampant misanthropy.

But history says you're full of shit, it says the solutions have always come from innovators, not the whining pricks that can't see the advantages they live with every day.

[Ocean1]

No it isn't. Oh great irony: "embedded and intractable misanthropy". Such a positive outlook in regards to ones' fellow man :niceone:. It's symptomatic of people wanting an issue in their lives addressed that isn't being. Nothing negative there, just a bunch of facts. Some people have multiple issues.

Your slippers do look nice and comfy though.

If my fellow man shows a balanced outlook regarding the behavior of his cohorts then my outlook is positively glowing.

It's the fellow man that not only can't see the benefits his own people provide but are all over any perceived flaw in those benefits I'm calling out. Y'know, those who want something addressed that are doing absolutely nothing about it but manage to criticize everyone who does.

Cunts like you.

[Katman]

Well that'd fit well with your own rampant misanthropy.

Dude, the only sector of society that I truly deplore is the one filled with greedy motherfuckers like you who will trample over anyone to get ahead.

[mashman]

If my fellow man shows a balanced outlook regarding the behavior of his cohorts then my outlook is positively glowing.

I'm not overly fond of your discernment in regards to the definition of balanced you look to be wielding.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/-FyJvMlkI-ww/ThxOg_ubGGI/AAAAAAAAABA/0drq6PvaMbs/s288/1.jpg



It's the fellow man that not only can't see the benefits his own people provide but are all over any perceived flaw in those benefits I'm calling out. Y'know, those who want something addressed that are doing absolutely nothing about it but manage to criticize everyone who does.

Cunts like you.

Supports the above argument unequivocally. Kindly keep your projection to yourself eh... there may be children present.

[Ocean1]

Dude, the only sector of society that I truly deplore is the one filled with greedy motherfuckers like you who will trample over anyone to get ahead.

Meh. When whining pricks like you get any say in what innovators provide for everyone else it'll be a dark day in hell.

Briefly.

[Ocean1]

I'm not overly fond of your discernment in regards to the definition of balanced you look to be wielding.

Of course you're not, it makes you look like the parasite you are.

[TheDemonLord]

I disagree.

The real solutions will more likely come from those whose primary motivation is not greed.

The Real solution normally comes from someone whose motivation is entirely greed:

Product X is the current product of choice but has N side effects that whilst undesirable are considered acceptable when compared to the benefits of using Product X

Along comes Product Y that does not have N Side effects and has the same or better performance as Product X.

Product Y was created by an inventor and entrepreneur who wanted a big fat slice of the Pie that the Product X inventor was getting.

[mashman]

Of course you're not, it makes you look like the parasite you are.

bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. I am a net gain for your country. Have been from the day I arrived. How am I being a parasite again?

[Ocean1]

bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. I am a net gain for your country. Have been from the day I arrived. How am I being a parasite again?

Show me the numbers demonstrating you're producing more than you're consuming.

[carbonhed]

Dude, the only sector of society that I truly deplore is the one filled with greedy motherfuckers like you who will trample over anyone to get ahead.

That must be why you're one of the most red repped assholes on the forum.... everbody is picking up on your openness to other points of view, ready wit and easy going charm.

[mashman]

Show me the numbers demonstrating you're producing more than you're consuming.

I'll go one better. I'll write you a report.

[Katman]

I'll go one better. I'll write you a report.

Make sure it has graphs.

Ocean loves graphs.

[mashman]

Make sure it has graphs.

Ocean loves graphs.

Only the positively spun ones though. The girls have their crayons out, and they're a fuckin chirpy bunch so fait accompli :D

[Katman]

Good shit.

http://sustainablepulse.com/2016/03/05/eu-countries-launch-shock-rebellion-against-glyphosate-herbicides/#.Vt6FSX197Df

[puddytat]

If my fellow man shows a balanced outlook regarding the behavior of his cohorts then my outlook is positively glowing.

It's the fellow man that not only can't see the benefits his own people provide but are all over any perceived flaw in those benefits I'm calling out. Y'know, those who want something addressed that are doing absolutely nothing about it but manage to criticize everyone who does.

Cunts like you.

Well I could turn that around right back at you & call you .....pot kettle etc & then we'd be to back name calling.
Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you are automatically right. Just like when I say I disagree with something that its a blanket coverage of everything to do with the topic.....
For fucks sake, no wonder we're having problems when everyone is so fucking pedantic.

There are 2 types of people I reckon.....those who are ruled by their Brain , & those by their Gut feelings.

[husaberg]

There are 2 types of people I reckon.....those who are ruled by their Brain , & those by their Gut feelings.

Gee only two types what about those of us rules by our dicks?

[Katman]

Even better shit.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jun/06/recall-of-monsantos-roundup-likely-as-eu-refuses-limited-use-of-glyphosate?CMP=share_btn_fb

[RDJ]

Recall of Glyphosate brought to you by the same hypocritical bunch of virtue-signallers who are responsible for the fatality rate from insecticide-preventable diseases such as malaria and dengue, and the social and economic consequences of bringing in a couple of million rapefugees and relatives from failed states. What could possibly go wrong.

[Voltaire]

There is a Doco called Food Inc where they discuss Monsanto's GM seeds and how you get taken to court if you have them blown on to your farm and use them....theft they say.
The seeds are Roundup proof so you can spray and kill all the weeds.

Agent Orange was one of the earlier products they made.

[Katman]

Even if you think she's a raving conspiracy theorist, she's at least very easy on the eye.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PTi0_ZQtPTY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[TheDemonLord]

Even if you think she's a raving conspiracy theorist, she's at least very easy on the eye.

Hasn't anyone ever told you that you don't put your dick in crazy?

[Akzle]

Hasn't anyone ever told you that you don't put your dick in crazy?

they're all (women) batshit crazy.
It's only the degree that varies, and that's based largely on circumstance.
Ie, cook breakfast for a 9, do her in the pooper while she's hungover, leave her with the shitty vomitty mess and never call again, just see how fucken crazy they go.

[Maha]

do her in the pooper while she's hungover

Like this?

[RGVforme]

they're all (women) batshit crazy.
It's only the degree that varies, and that's based largely on circumstance.
Ie, cook breakfast for a 9, do her in the pooper while she's hungover, leave her with the shitty vomitty mess and never call again, just see how fucken crazy they go.

The average morning after a good night out in Hamilton.:lol:

[Akzle]

The average morning after a good night out in Hamilton.:lol:

there's fuckall 9s in hamilton bro.

[husaberg]

I sincerely doubt he's that picky.
http://www.nzdgba.co.nz/

[TheDemonLord]

there's fuckall 9s in hamilton bro.

That depends on how much you've had to drink that night....

[husaberg]

That depends on how much you've had to drink that night....


http://img.ifcdn.com/images/836fcbd7d63cbd2a8faa7a5fba37723552aebff83a4758d0da e4076ce3e8f32e_1.jpg

[Katman]

http://www.realfarmacy.com/seralini-defamation-lawsuit/

[Katman]

(Shamelessly poached from another thread). (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/2/19/838659/-)

[Oakie]

Surprised no one has mentioned this from a few days ago. http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/83079593/Cancer-all-clear-given-to-weedkiller-glyphosate-by-New-Zealand-scientific-review

Not the more in depth article I first read but the highlights are there.

[Katman]

"We'll tell you what the news is. The news is what we say it is".

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LsglbfZLc_0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[bogan]

"We'll tell you what the news is. The news is what we say it is".

Well it's a good thing you told us what that news said :whistle:

[Oakie]

Surprised no one has mentioned this http://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/14/bayer-and-monsanto-agree-to-merge.html

Turns out those 'Roundup shares' are worth $128 each.

[Katman]

Surprised no one has mentioned this http://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/14/bayer-and-monsanto-agree-to-merge.html

Turns out those 'Roundup shares' are worth $128 each.

Good old Bayer.

They're sure to look after us.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/159661-Thinking-of-getting-vaccinated?p=1131002139#post1131002139

[Akzle]

Surprised no one has mentioned this http://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/14/bayer-and-monsanto-agree-to-merge.html

Turns out those 'Roundup shares' are worth $128 each.

the irony of nazzi cunts *buying* jew cunts is awesome!

[pete376403]

Bayer (nee IG Farben) well known for their product "Zyklon B", very popular with shower manufactures in the mid 1940's.

[Oakie]

Bayer (nee IG Farben) well known for their product "Zyklon B", very popular with shower manufactures in the mid 1940's.

How is this for irony? (from Wiki) IG Farben had bought the patent for the pesticide Zyklon B, which had been invented by the Nobel Prize-winning Jewish German chemist Fritz Haber's research group at the Institute for Physical Chemistry and Elektrochemistry in the 1920s, and which was originally used as an insecticide, especially as a fumigant in grain stores. Invented by a Jew! Oy vey!

[Akzle]

How is this for irony? (from Wiki) IG Farben had bought the patent for the pesticide Zyklon B, which had been invented by the Nobel Prize-winning Jewish German chemist Fritz Haber's research group at the Institute for Physical Chemistry and Elektrochemistry in the 1920s, and which was originally used as an insecticide, especially as a fumigant in grain stores. Invented by a Jew! Oy vey!

it's not called the lolocaust for nothing...

[Katman]

https://www.ecowatch.com/monsanto-papers-2467891575.html

[Oakie]

Just out of interest, Monsanto shares are currently $117.61 USD per share ... so yeah, I wouldn't mind having 100 Monsanto shares to sell.

Gotta admit though that I'm much more likely to spend an hour weeding the garden now than just dumping a litre of Roundup on it and walking away.

[bogan]

Just out of interest, Monsanto shares are currently $117.61 USD per share ... so yeah, I wouldn't mind having 100 Monsanto shares to sell.

Gotta admit though that I'm much more likely to spend an hour weeding the garden now than just dumping a litre of Roundup on it and walking away.

That's only up from 113.05 when the thread was started though, not even keeping up with inflation.

[Kickaha]

Gotta admit though that I'm much more likely to spend an hour weeding the garden now than just dumping a litre of Roundup on it and walking away.

I dumped roundup all over it then concreted it

[Doppleganger]

If you've got a shit load of gorse on your property ya cant be a dose of high concentrate round up to kill the shit out of it.

[Akzle]

If you've got a shit load of gorse on your property ya cant be a dose of high concentrate round up to kill the shit out of it.

metsulfuron is better and wont kill grass.

also gorse isnt so bad and doesnt need killing all the time.

[jim.cox]

If you've got a shit load of gorse on your property ya cant be a dose of high concentrate round up to kill the shit out of it.

Having tried a few options, Tordon is the only product I have found to be really effective against gorse.

[Katman]

If you've got a shit load of gorse on your property ya cant be a dose of high concentrate round up to kill the shit out of it.

Would you be just as happy to spray it over your crops?

[TheDemonLord]

If you've got a shit load of gorse on your property ya cant be a dose of high concentrate round up to kill the shit out of it.

I find Napalm and RDX to be quite effective.

[Oakie]

Agent Orange FTW!

[jim.cox]

(to the tune of Herod's song)

What is that droning?
What is that misty spray?
An aeroplane is overhead
Baptising us today

With 245T
Good old 245T
Count your baby's heads today
Two is better
So they say

245T
Good old 245T
Drink your milk
And eat your greens
You might get
Some nice new genes

[bogan]

I find Napalm and RDX to be quite effective.

Would have though the order would be better the other way around, blow it up then burn it down.

[husaberg]

Would you be just as happy to spray it over your crops?

Grass is a crop, maybe you might want to educate yourself a little better before making more stupid clearly uneducated statements about either farming or horticulture.
You also might want to explain how crops that people and animals eat everyday are going to be successfully established without the use of Glyphosate with yeilds that will allow the world to actually feed all its inhabitants.


Having tried a few options, Tordon is the only product I have found to be really effective against gorse.
if you want to stay green just mow it a couple of times a year, there is a reason its only an issue in rougher areas.
Glyphosate and a surfactant or Tordon brushkiller are about the same effectiveness in my experience, as long as a full coverage is achieved. Tordon is better if small areas are missed with less regenerative regrowth of plants.
Tordon has other advantages in that grass is not really effected. plus its pretty effective on many other weeds.

[TheDemonLord]

Would have though the order would be better the other way around, blow it up then burn it down.

Potayto Potarto...

[Doppleganger]

Would you be just as happy to spray it over your crops?

If I wanted to kill them yes

[Doppleganger]

metsulfuron is better and wont kill grass.

also gorse isnt so bad and doesnt need killing all the time.

Got it in two paddocks, going to much both paddocks and them roundup them after 8 weeks.
Let it all die off then much/harrow again then re-seed.

[Katman]

If I wanted to kill them yes

What if they were genetically modified 'glyphosate resistant' crops?

[Akzle]

Got it in two paddocks, going to much both paddocks and them roundup them after 8 weeks.
Let it all die off then much/harrow again then re-seed.

https://www.beris.nl/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/drevil-riiiight.jpg

not one to tell you how to do your job or anything...

but why the fuck would you use glyph for that???

[Doppleganger]

https://www.beris.nl/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/drevil-riiiight.jpg

not one to tell you how to do your job or anything...

but why the fuck would you use glyph for that???

Neutralises in the soil and cost effective

[Honest Andy]

I've never used Tordon, my local supplier sells me a Grazon equivalent. It has shorter withholding and persistance than Tordon but still costs more than glyphos. It works well on gorse and blackberry in the paddock. Also knocks off other things too like wandering jew and ivy if I add surfactant, and sometimes I add some to the glyphos that I use on the metal drive because glyphos doesn't take down clover very well.
Gorse is in the same family as clover so that's why it doesn't work all that well for gorse without surfactant and multiple applications.

Personally I'd rather use fewer applications of the correct poison than more applications of a poison that is only partially effective.

It leaves more time for putting miles on the scooter :ride:

[Akzle]

Neutralises in the soil and cost effective

mmmmmmm no.

[husaberg]

I've never used Tordon, my local supplier sells me a Grazon equivalent. It has shorter withholding and persistance than Tordon but still costs more than glyphos.:

Tordon and Grazon have the same active ingrediants.
Triclopyr and Picloram. they are both Dow products
Grazon is more diluted than Tordon (well it was last time i looked)

[Honest Andy]

Tordon and Grazon have the same active ingrediants.
Triclopyr and Picloram. they are both Dow products
Grazon is more diluted than Tordon (well it was last time i looked)

No. That's wrong.

[Katman]

No. That's wrong.

The stupid fuck usually is.

[Honest Andy]

The stupid fuck usually is.

Oi! This thread was hijacked ages ago and now you have nothing to add here.

Besides it wasn't entirely wrong....

Actually yeah it was....

[russd7]

brush killer
ACTIVE INGREDIENT
:
Contains
100 g/litre picloram
and
8 g/
litre
aminopyralid as amine salts
; and
300
g/litre triclopyr as the butoxyethyl ester in the form of an emulsifiable concentrate.
Also contains 367 g/litre diethylene glycol.

grazon
CTIVE INGREDIENT:
Contains
600 g/litre triclopyr as the butoxy ethyl ester in the form of an em
ulsifiable
concentrate.

both dow agro products.

i been out of the industry for a few year now but i know there used to be some generic brushkillers out there.

roundup will work on gorse but need pretty much 100% coverage but there is a lot less residual effect, escort is better but still need better than 90% coverage but again less residual effect.

brushkiller is the best but has at least 6mnths residual on brassicas and legumes but won't knock the grass

not hard to go find the SDS or even labels for these products

[husaberg]

No. That's wrong.

Not historically while some formulations of Grazon now contain no picloram, some still do, depending on either the market model code or the Year of manufacture.
Its just like Tordon in that it has evolved in formulation fron 2-4-5t to 2-4-DB and picloram, to picloram and triclopyr.
Dow just keeps using the same brand name and changes the formulation.
Until not that long ago i still had some "245t" Tordon brushkiller.

[Honest Andy]

Not historically while some formulations of Grazon now contain no picloram, some still do, depending on either the market model code or the Year of manufacture.
Its just like Tordon in that it has evolved in formulation fron 2-4-5t to 2-4-DB and picloram, to picloram and triclopyr.
Dow just keeps using the same brand name and changes the formulation.
Until not that long ago i still had some "245t" Tordon brushkiller.

Oh. Sure. Historically. I see.
Interesting I suppose. But completely irrelevant. :weird:

Previous post has current formulations. Check them out. And the withholding periods. Just for your education really :niceone:

[husaberg]

Oh. Sure. Historically. I see.
Interesting I suppose. But completely irrelevant. :weird:

Previous post has current formulations. Check them out. And the withholding periods. Just for your education really :niceone:

Not just Historically. also currently as i said depending on the market the formulation changes quite often
next formulation could be back to what it was just a couple of seasons ago just like this current one.
http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDAS/dh_0960/0901b803809609ee.pdf?filepath=au/pdfs/noreg/012-10541.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc
http://www.dowagro.com/en-au/australia/news_and_resources/news_room/2017/03/grazon_extra#.WYg-dbpuLTA

but don't let that get in the way of your troll.