Your sovereign rights being flushed down the toilet by our politicians

[Katman]

In what way?



Then post some and prove it.



I'm not sure, post me some links of ones you think I may have missed...

You sound like you suffer from Perpetual Infant Syndrome.

Do you still need someone to wipe your arse?

[bogan]

You are spouting self serving shit again. You truly are full of it.

You have repeatedly asked for three (or was it 4) examples of how people are enslaved to the govt. The mere act of asking for more than one example is both evidence of your bias against accepting such examples and an involuntary admission that you know it to be true.

Only one example is needed to demonstrate the truth. Yet you insist on three. According to that sort of disingenuous twaddle, you would deny that a 19th century African American slave was a slave because he couldn't articulate more than "cause massa says so".

Put simply, your bias demands three examples because you can think of two yourself.


This blatantly dishonest approach to debating discourages me from wasting any time with argumentative shitheads like you.

Just three. If you like you can supply just one to help out... The idea of three was to save time as I expected many would not be correct examples anyway. In fact, taking your points on board, you supply one robust example of slavery and we will discuss that. Happy?


You sound like you suffer from Perpetual Infant Syndrome.

Do you still need someone to wipe your arse?

Ahh insults and nothing more, I like these because they show a sure sign I have bested you in the debate topic.

I'll give you some tips for next time. It was you initial challenge that went wrong, as it still hinged on your evidence, what you needed to find was a claim I made which was not related to the debunking of another's claim; a standalone one. You would have stood a much better chance at showing me not backing myself that way.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Disingenuous goal post constructs = full of shit. No matter how fast you backpedal. Fucking strawman

[Woodman]

You are spouting self serving shit again. You truly are full of it.

You have repeatedly asked for three (or was it 4) examples of how people are enslaved to the govt. The mere act of asking for more than one example is both evidence of your bias against accepting such examples and an involuntary admission that you know it to be true.


At least he doesn't just make shit up.

[mashman]

In what way?

That you have to ask means I get to leave you to it.

[Katman]

I'll give you some tips for next time. It was you initial challenge that went wrong, as it still hinged on your evidence, what you needed to find was a claim I made which was not related to the debunking of another's claim; a standalone one. You would have stood a much better chance at showing me not backing myself that way.

You have repeatedly shown you are not interested in debating evidence.

You simply attempt to wear down your opponent by talking in circles while not actually saying anything.

Much like Ed.

[flyingcrocodile46]

At least he doesn't just make shit up.

Ah! The taste tester arrives.

[Scuba_Steve]

How was it shown to be total shit?

Did somebody watch a youtube about the topic? Or was it peer reviewed (the process continues after publication you know)

Someone I guess "did the maths" few years (think it was 4) after it was published & accepted

And what's the problem with YouTube???

[flyingcrocodile46]

Someone I guess "did the maths" few years (think it was 4) after it was published & accepted

And what's the problem with YouTube???

Too much negative light and not enough kittens:lol:

[bogan]

Disingenuous goal post constructs = full of shit. No matter how fast you backpedal. Fucking strawman

Ahh, so instead of addressing the content you attack the poster. Well done.


That you have to ask means I get to leave you to it.

That I have to ask means I want to know why you think it is scary. I expect you think it such because it means published info that many rely on can be wrong, yet that has always and will always be the case. Personally I find it comforting that the institution is open to addressing these errors at the earliest opportunity.

You have repeatedly shown you are not interested in debating evidence.

You simply attempt to wear down your opponent by talking in circles while not actually saying anything.

Much like Ed.

I've repeatedly asked for evidence, with which to have a debate.


Someone I guess "did the maths" few years (think it was 4) after it was published & accepted

And what's the problem with YouTube???

And how did they do the maths?

Youtube is all too commonly used as a tool to indoctrinate the ignorant; there is a narrative designed to guide one's mind along a linear path to a predetermined conclusion. That is why some poster's who care more about this predetermined conclusion than coming to the right one have a propensity to post youtube clips. Critical errors in logic or lack of expertise can all too easily be obfusticated from the viewer. That is why I expect it will not have been a youtube that overturned a scientific article.

[Katman]

Youtube is all too commonly used as a tool to indoctrinate the ignorant; there is a narrative designed to guide one's mind along a linear path to a predetermined conclusion. That is why some poster's who care more about this predetermined conclusion than coming to the right one have a propensity to post youtube clips. Critical errors in logic or lack of expertise can all too easily be obfusticated from the viewer. That is why I expect it will not have been a youtube that overturned a scientific article.

So you're saying that if you watch a Youtube video you will become indoctrinated?

Are you incapable of watching something with an open mind?

[flyingcrocodile46]

So you're saying that if you watch a Youtube video you will become indoctrinated?

Are you incapable of watching something with an open mind?

Yes, he is. The MSM used as a tool to indoctrinate the ignorant; with a narrative designed to guide simple minds along a linear path to a predetermined conclusion. His glass is full.



Of shit.


He sees himself as an intellectual gatekeeper. Of course, he's only half right.

[bogan]

So you're saying that if you watch a Youtube video you will become indoctrinated?

Are you incapable of watching something with an open mind?

No, I'm saying that is the idea behind them. I'll just see thorugh that and gain nothing but contempt for the viewpoint they put forward; hence it is better for your case if I do not watch them.

Having an open mind has little to do with whether you can be indoctrinated or not.

Tell me, why do you favor youtubes over peer reviewed stuff?

[Katman]

No, I'm saying that is the idea behind them. I'll just see thorugh that and gain nothing but contempt for the viewpoint they put forward; hence it is better for your case if I do not watch them.


So in order to bolster your own viewpoint you simply refuse to view anyone else's.

You and Ed must be twins.

[flyingcrocodile46]

No, I'm saying that is the idea behind them. I'll just see thorugh that and gain nothing but contempt for the viewpoint they put forward; hence it is better for your case if I do not watch them.


Further proof (admission) of cognitive bias leading to predetermined bias which forces the mind to attempt close tighter like an asshole under load. When faced with any preliminary genuine logic based discourse, contradictory unsupportable twaddle passes through the orifice and is presented as if it were a meaningful rebuke.

Which all goes to prove that you can't win an 'argument' (because idiots don't debate) with an idiot.

[yokel]

Yes, he is. The MSM used as a tool to indoctrinate the ignorant; with a narrative designed to guide simple minds along a linear path to a predetermined conclusion. His glass is full.



Of shit.


He sees himself as an intellectual gatekeeper. Of course, he's only half right.

The media like TV is mind control, they want everyone to think the same thing at the same time.
popular opinion is not truth.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nu93hse6cXs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Scuba_Steve]

And how did they do the maths?

Youtube is all too commonly used as a tool to indoctrinate the ignorant; there is a narrative designed to guide one's mind along a linear path to a predetermined conclusion. That is why some poster's who care more about this predetermined conclusion than coming to the right one have a propensity to post youtube clips. Critical errors in logic or lack of expertise can all too easily be obfusticated from the viewer. That is why I expect it will not have been a youtube that overturned a scientific article.

Don't know, like I said it was more his interest than mine...

No, the Govt is quite far behind in the YouTube usage, the education system has been used far far longer to "indoctrinate the ignorant" than YouTube
YouTube at-least has both sides so the less ignorant or the ones wishing to become less ignorant can see both sides & decide for themselves... Given your dislike for YouTube I can only assume you wish to only hear the "official propaganda" & thus have disdain for anything to the contrary regardless of how factual it maybe... Which is weird given you claim YouTube to do exactly what you appear to be, the indoctrinated ignorant

[bogan]

So in order to bolster your own viewpoint you simply refuse to view anyone else's.

You and Ed must be twins.

I view others as the viepoints they are, you attempt to portray them as evidence, which they are not.


Further proof (admission) of cognitive bias leading to predetermined bias which forces the mind to attempt close tighter like an asshole under load. When faced with any preliminary genuine logic based discourse, contradictory unsupportable twaddle passes through the orifice and is presented as if it were a meaningful rebuke.

Which all goes to prove that you can't win an 'argument' (because idiots don't debate) with an idiot.

Ah, now you're trying fancy words insults. Losing the debate with me really has gotten under your skin hasn't it :laugh:


Don't know, like I said it was more his interest than mine...

No, the Govt is quite far behind in the YouTube usage, the education system has been used far far longer to "indoctrinate the ignorant" than YouTube
YouTube at-least has both sides so the less ignorant or the ones wishing to become less ignorant can see both sides & decide for themselves... Given your dislike for YouTube I can only assume you wish to only hear the "official propaganda" & thus have disdain for anything to the contrary regardless of how factual it maybe... Which is weird given you claim YouTube to do exactly what you appear to be, the indoctrinated ignorant

Ahh, the old education is just indoctrination argument. Brought to you by fruits of such 'indoctrination' like the internet.
You can assume wrong. Official as opposed to conspiracy theorist viewpoints do not enter into my decision making process at all. The evidence does; and its lack here is almost palpable.

[unstuck]

And this dear readers, is why society is what it is among the masses. Everybody wants their view point and opinion to be the right one, and those that disagree with it are scorned and abused. What a joke, the lot of you should be ashamed of yourselves. Just another thread full of angry dick waving.:msn-wink:

[flyingcrocodile46]

And this dear readers, is why society is what it is among the masses. Everybody wants their view point and opinion to be the right one, and those that disagree with it are scorned and abused. What a joke, the lot of you should be ashamed of yourselves. Just another thread full of angry dick waving.:msn-wink: he said as he wiped the drool off his chin

[Katman]

I view others as the viepoints they are, you attempt to portray them as evidence, which they are not.


If an eyewitness testifies in court as to what it was they saw, is that not evidence?

[bogan]

If an eyewitness testifies in court as to what it was they saw, is that not evidence?

Of course it is. But not their interpretation or viewpoint of that.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Posts 266 and 267 nailed you


Ah, ......

Ahh, .....

Ahh!

[Katman]

Of course it is. But not their interpretation or viewpoint of that.

Then the film I mentioned earlier contains loads of evidence.

It would all be presented in a court of law if the opportunity were made available.

Would you still refuse to view or listen to it then?

[yokel]

I view others as the viepoints they are, you attempt to portray them as evidence, which they are not.



Ah, now you're trying fancy words insults. Losing the debate with me really has gotten under your skin hasn't it :laugh:



Ahh, the old education is just indoctrination argument. Brought to you by fruits of such 'indoctrination' like the internet.
You can assume wrong. Official as opposed to conspiracy theorist viewpoints do not enter into my decision making process at all. The evidence does; and its lack here is almost palpable.

you dont like youtube because you have a weak mind, your argument that something is wrong because it's on the internet is proof of that. you dont have any real decision making process, other than to agree with the majority/mob rules or peer reviews, which takes almost zero intelligence.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Of course it is. But not their interpretation or viewpoint of that.

Lol. Love the irony

[bogan]

Then the film I mentioned earlier contains loads of evidence.

It would all be presented in a court of law if the opportunity were made available.

Would you still refuse to view or listen to it then?

Evidence to what though? you mentioned it in regard to nanothermite, not something that can be proven with eyewitness testimony.


you dont like youtube because you have a weak mind, your argument that something is wrong because it's on the internet is proof of that. you dont have any real decision making process, other than to agree with the majority/mob rules or peer reviews, which takes almost zero intelligence.

Only a weak mind could conceive that that was my argument to begin with ;)

[Katman]

Evidence to what though? you mentioned it in regard to nanothermite, not something that can be proven with eyewitness testimony.


You don't really understand the concept of 'evidence', do you?

[bogan]

You don't really understand the concept of 'evidence', do you?

Would you like to explain it then?

[yokel]

Evidence to what though? you mentioned it in regard to nanothermite, not something that can be proven with eyewitness testimony.



Only a weak mind could conceive that that was my argument to begin with ;)

you have no argument you muppet.
your replies are just empty useless words that have no substance, just blah blah blah and no content.
looks to me that you've spent too much time in the education system, I luckily have not.

[bogan]

looks to me that you've spent too much time in the education system, I luckily have not.

No, that is certainly one thing I wouldn't accuse you of :laugh:

[Woodman]

you dont like youtube because you have a weak mind, your argument that something is wrong because it's on the internet is proof of that. you dont have any real decision making process, other than to agree with the majority/mob rules or peer reviews, which takes almost zero intelligence.

How the hell did you draw that conclusion from Bogans posts?

[Katman]

Would you like to explain it then?

Do you not know how to use a dictionary?

[bogan]

Do you not know how to use a dictionary?

My understanding of it is consistent with the dictionary definition. So in the interests of shared understanding I asked you to offer further explanation.

[unstuck]

he said as he wiped the drool off his chin

That was not drool.:cool:

[Oscar]

looks to me that you've spent too much time in the education system, I luckily have not.

That is the first true thing you've posted.

[Scuba_Steve]

Ahh, the old education is just indoctrination argument. Brought to you by fruits of such 'indoctrination' like the internet.
You can assume wrong. Official as opposed to conspiracy theorist viewpoints do not enter into my decision making process at all. The evidence does; and its lack here is almost palpable.

you say this but then constantly dismiss anything YouTube & constantly want "peer reviewed articles" or in other words constantly dismiss a open channel in favour of officially controlled one
Now is everything on YouTube true... fuck no, but neither is every "peer review article" as we've seen & you're more likely to find truth on YouTube than almost any other mainstream media source; to dismiss anything simply because it's from YouTube is really going the extra mile to stay ignorant

[bogan]

you say this but then constantly dismiss anything YouTube & constantly want "peer reviewed articles" or in other words constantly dismiss a open channel in favour of officially controlled one
Now is everything on YouTube true... fuck no, but neither is every "peer review article" as we've seen & you're more likely to find truth on YouTube than almost any other mainstream media source; to dismiss anything simply because it's from YouTube is really going the extra mile to stay ignorant

You know I dismiss pretty much everything from mainstream media too right? Like I said, Official as opposed to conspiracy theorist viewpoints do not enter into my decision making process at all.

You are most likely to find truth in peer reviewed articles because of the way they lay out the information in such a way that experts can review their decision making process. Pretty much all the youtube's I've seen obfuscate this, making blanket claims without providing the supporting evidence, overstating a single person's opinion or interpretation. If you would like to provide one for me to watch (up until the obfuscation begins) and illustrate this point I can.

[mashman]

And this dear readers, is why society is what it is among the masses. Everybody wants their view point and opinion to be the right one, and those that disagree with it are scorned and abused. What a joke, the lot of you should be ashamed of yourselves. Just another thread full of angry dick waving.:msn-wink:

The result is in the eye of the beholder :shifty:

I thought everybody wanted an honest outcome irrespective of their viewpoint.

[flyingcrocodile46]

You know I dismiss pretty much everything from mainstream media too right?

How to back pedal without pedals

[Scuba_Steve]

You know I dismiss pretty much everything from mainstream media too right? Like I said, Official as opposed to conspiracy theorist viewpoints do not enter into my decision making process at all.

You are most likely to find truth in peer reviewed articles because of the way they lay out the information in such a way that experts can review their decision making process. Pretty much all the youtube's I've seen obfuscate this, making blanket claims without providing the supporting evidence, overstating a single person's opinion or interpretation. If you would like to provide one for me to watch (up until the obfuscation begins) and illustrate this point I can.

like the "peer reviewed" article I previously posted, or the shitload of them the science journals recently purged due to being not only inaccurate but complete falsifications... those sort of "peer reviewed" articles you talking?
Bullshit is everywhere, being peer reviewed doesn't seem to change that & hell YouTube is peer reviewed, have you seen the comments section??? (it's also trolled but that comes with anonymity, welcome to the human world ay)

Did you want a specific YouTube vid? Here's one anyways... all sciencey & shit


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H901KdXgHs4

[bogan]

How to back pedal without pedals

So, still got nothing of value to add then? :laugh:

[FJRider]

So, still got nothing of value to add then? :laugh:

Ditto .................................

[bogan]

like the "peer reviewed" article I previously posted, or the shitload of them the science journals recently purged due to being not only inaccurate but complete falsifications... those sort of "peer reviewed" articles you talking?
Bullshit is everywhere, being peer reviewed doesn't seem to change that & hell YouTube is peer reviewed, have you seen the comments section??? (it's also trolled but that comes with anonymity, welcome to the human world ay)

Did you want a specific YouTube vid? Here's one anyways... all sciencey & shit


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H901KdXgHs4

Yup, those are the ones. Far far fewer errors in those than on the youtubes, youtube doesn't even take down the known wrong ones ffs.

Peer reviewed immensely changes the balance of right to wrong. Youtube is not peer reviewed, it is commented on by all and sundry, there is a difference.

Ok, so what statement are you using that video to support?

[Brian d marge]

full of angry dick waving.:msn-wink:

at my age ....A. got to find it

B ... convince it to come out

Only then can one start to wave , but the desired effect is more comical than anything else


But if I could I would !!

Stephen

[Katman]

Peer reviewed immensely changes the balance of right to wrong. Youtube is not peer reviewed, it is commented on by all and sundry, there is a difference.


You might like to read this.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1420798/

(I don't know whether it's been peer reviewed though).

[Voltaire]

at my age ....A. got to find it

B ... convince it to come out

Only then can one start to wave , but the desired effect is more comical than anything else


But if I could I would !!

Stephen

So what's happening in Tokyo?

And where are the warehouses full of cheap Eurobikes in various states than end up here?

[bogan]

You might like to read this.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1420798/

(I don't know whether it's been peer reviewed though).

Yeh that is good. Since it has been written in the proper format I can take exception to some of the statements written. The first (and first instance of a reference too) being "This pastiche—which is not far from systems I have seen used—is little better than tossing a coin, because the level of agreement between reviewers on whether a paper should be published is little better than you'd expect by chance."

Upon tracking down the source article I find it contains the statement "In all cases consensus between various judges was higher than by chance-and in all cases it was higher for the 1551 articles than it was for the 489 that went to a hanging committee" and "consensus between readers was better, often much better, than by chance".

Funnily enough though, since that sort of rubbish was published, it does make a valid point :laugh:

Course the part in his abstract still applies "Famously, it is compared with democracy: a system full of problems but the least worst we have."

[Katman]

Course the part in his abstract still applies "Famously, it is compared with democracy: a system full of problems but the least worst we have."

I could suggest that a form of self governance might be a better system than democracy.

Much like I believe relying on your own mental capacity to reach an informed decision beats relying on the opinions of others.

[bogan]

I could suggest that a form of self governance might be a better system than democracy.

Much like I believe relying on your own mental capacity to reach an informed decision beats relying on the opinions of others.

You could, but it does not mean you would be correct.

That is what peer review is about. See how I could trace back his train of logic to show exactly where he has misleadingly overstated the work of others? You can't do that with a youtube, and instead have to take the flawed work as truth or dismiss it entirely. Only by showing your working (as peer reviewed work demands) can there be a shared understanding.

[Katman]

You could, but it does not mean you would be correct.


Relying on others to tell you what you should believe doesn't mean you're correct either.

[bogan]

Relying on others to tell you what you should believe doesn't mean you're correct either.

And I've covered that already (in the part of the post you deleted in fact), but to summarise. A youtube video tells you what to believe, a properly referenced article shows you what to believe.

[Katman]

And I've covered that already (in the part of the post you deleted in fact), but to summarise. A youtube video tells you what to believe, a properly referenced article shows you what to believe.

No, a 'properly referenced article' references you back to one other person's opinion.

[Brian d marge]

Wrong, I can conclude the cup on my desk cup contains 78% water, there is no bias in that. Just an impartial examination of the reality; it is the key to understanding what is, do you not meditate?
Yet by 'knowing' the govt enslaves us, you are choosing the one in which you are enslaved, not by the govt, but by your own mind.

Lets try a thought experiment, try to list the three biggest points of enslavement our govt puts upon us.

I posted , some examples , now lets look at enslavement ... A some froggie wrote * man was born free but everywhere is in chains * or something like that . To find out if you are enslaved , try not doing or using it . IF all works out fine , then you are free but if shit hits the fan , you is enslaved... try not paying rego .... a useless tax or not using a driving licence ....


You should try it, it is a good way to examine your own self and its bias'.

I say isn't, and ask you to provide reasons to back up your is. You say lets not; thus refusing to back up your own opinion. This is why I say it is your mind that enslave you, seek enlightenment and shared understanding with me, break free of your shackles :banana:

I , we are trying , there is hope for you young Bogie , but life aint black and white sometimes .....


So you do claim it has been shown the govt enslaves us?

Did they ever find weapons of mass destruction ? for which they killed hundreds . How come the Icelandic economey is doing fine , when they said it wouldnt . Why has the oil price dropped to 60 dollars when we were told it was running out ..... Now we are being told that ISISISISISL is a bad muslim group intent on chopping peoples heads off ....but the plot thickens when we look deeper into ISISISIS es history ....the stench of Israel seems to be on the air .... and that wealth will trickle down.
As for NZ, Student loans would open up education to the poor ...tui ... Competition would lower electricity prices ...tui ...ACC is broke ....tui .....need I go on! oh and these have ALL been proven false ...have mom and dad made a profit on their meridian shares yet ? hope so ..because its at the expense of other Kiwis .....


I've already said taxes and money are not points of slavery. Money is simply a system of barter, a concept, if you feel enslaved by this it is your own mind doing it; same with taxes. Interest is not valid either as nobody is forced to get a loan in the first place. Conscription? when was the last time anyone was conscripted? Electoral system, nope, not having things run the way you would like does not constitute slavery by the govt; but if you look at it too negatively then your mind does enslave you to it.

So it is still only mandatory Education on the list.

try not using any of it ..and see how far ya get .......I do agree with the concept part and with taxation being a concept but even I recognise ATM , one is enslaved, i.e cannot escape from it. ( not from lack of trying on my part)


Try me.

Which viewpoint would you like me to back up?

Money, and the application of interest leads to enslavement ..... there ya go ... take as long as ya want


So what's happening in Tokyo?

And where are the warehouses full of cheap Eurobikes in various states than end up here?

Im waiting on a shipment of arms from america , ( a new long bow and some arrows , should be here today ) the house is a friggen mess and the Russians with their new found wealth have raised the prices of bikes to stupid levels ..... I have an old tomos if you are interested !


Stephen

[bogan]

No, a 'properly referenced article' references you back to one other person's opinion.

Which is generally derived from empirical data, also referenced; as was the case in my example which you put in too hard basket deleted (and you call me close minded :laugh:).

Opposed to youtube, when basically all the content is just one person's (the uploader) opinion.

[Katman]

Which is generally derived from empirical data, also referenced

What a load of shit.

It is generally just a reference back to where someone else has said the same thing.

You could do the same sort of referencing while watching Youtube videos.

You could get to a discussion point and think "hey, that sounds like an interesting claim - I'll do some research on that and decide whether I should agreee with it or not"

But that's probably too much hard work for you.

[bogan]

I posted , some examples , now lets look at enslavement ... A some froggie wrote * man was born free but everywhere is in chains * or something like that . To find out if you are enslaved , try not doing or using it . IF all works out fine , then you are free but if shit hits the fan , you is enslaved... try not paying rego .... a useless tax or not using a driving licence ....



I , we are trying , there is hope for you young Bogie , but life aint black and white sometimes .....



Did they ever find weapons of mass destruction ? for which they killed hundreds . How come the Icelandic economey is doing fine , when they said it wouldnt . Why has the oil price dropped to 60 dollars when we were told it was running out ..... Now we are being told that ISISISISISL is a bad muslim group intent on chopping peoples heads off ....but the plot thickens when we look deeper into ISISISIS es history ....the stench of Israel seems to be on the air .... and that wealth will trickle down.
As for NZ, Student loans would open up education to the poor ...tui ... Competition would lower electricity prices ...tui ...ACC is broke ....tui .....need I go on! oh and these have ALL been proven false ...have mom and dad made a profit on their meridian shares yet ? hope so ..because its at the expense of other Kiwis .....



try not using any of it ..and see how far ya get .......I do agree with the concept part and with taxation being a concept but even I recognise ATM , one is enslaved, i.e cannot escape from it. ( not from lack of trying on my part)



Money, and the application of interest leads to enslavement ..... there ya go ... take as long as ya want



Im waiting on a shipment of arms from america , ( a new long bow and some arrows , should be here today ) the house is a friggen mess and the Russians with their new found wealth have raised the prices of bikes to stupid levels ..... I have an old tomos if you are interested !


Stephen

I don't pay rego, still going fine...

Well we know they lie to us, I'm asking about enslavement.

Not being able to go without is not really the same as being enslaved by it. Otherwise you could also say one is enslaved by one's freinds and family, by the air, earth, water... the list goes on and on.

Sorry, did I need to clarify that I would only back up my own viewpoints, not yours?

Perhaps to frame the discussion better, I'm wishing to discuss how the govt enslaves us; which is, by definition:

"Definition of slave in English:
NOUN

1(Especially in the past) a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them:
he killed the natives or turned them into slaves
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
SYNONYMS
1.1A person who works very hard without proper remuneration or appreciation:
by the time I was ten, I had become her slave, doing all the housework
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
SYNONYMS
1.2A person who is excessively dependent upon or controlled by something:
the poorest people of the world are slaves to the banks
she was no slave to fashion
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
1.3A device, or part of one, directly controlled by another:
[AS MODIFIER]: a slave cassette deck
Compare with master1."

So who is a slave and why, and how have they been enslaved? Simply saying money and taxes is not justification of slavery.

[bogan]

What a load of shit.

It is generally just a reference back to where someone else has said the same thing.

Not in my example it wasn't, and not in the many others I've dealt with either. Have you gone and deleted all the things that didn't fit your bias in that set too?


You could do the same sort of referencing while watching Youtube videos.

You could get to a discussion point and think "hey, that sounds like an interesting claim - I'll do some research on that and decide whether I should agreee with it or not"

But that's probably too much hard work for you.

You could, and I have done, and it takes fucking ages and the rate of bullshit is attrocious because not many others do. So it is more efficient to just filter them out from the start. Not to mention that when I don't agree the person who presented it as evidence generally just finds some other bit of drivel in an attempt to waste my time. It just isn't conducive to discussion and shared understanding like a referenced article is.

[Katman]

You could, and I have done, and it takes fucking ages and the rate of bullshit is attrocious because not many others do. So it is more efficient to just filter them out from the start. Not to mention that when I don't agree the person who presented it as evidence generally just finds some other bit of drivel in an attempt to waste my time. It just isn't conducive to discussion and shared understanding like a referenced article is.

Fuck you talk some shit.

[bogan]

Fuck you talk some shit.

Don't we all? at least mine is accurate shit though.

[Scuba_Steve]

Ok, so what statement are you using that video to support?

That YouTube shouldn't be dismissed just because it's YouTube, there's valuable info contained within




"Definition of slave in English:
NOUN

1(Especially in the past) a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them:
he killed the natives or turned them into slaves
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
SYNONYMS
1.1A person who works very hard without proper remuneration or appreciation:
by the time I was ten, I had become her slave, doing all the housework
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
SYNONYMS
1.2A person who is excessively dependent upon or controlled by something:
the poorest people of the world are slaves to the banks
she was no slave to fashion
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
1.3A device, or part of one, directly controlled by another:
[AS MODIFIER]: a slave cassette deck
Compare with master1."

Doesn't 1.2A say money is a slave maker? "the poorest people in the world are slaves to banks" due to everyone being "excessively dependant upon" money... I mean try living in the country you were born without it
But moreso the 1st sentence "person legal property of another & forced to obey"; tell me do you have a IRD number? are you legally registered as belonging to NZ i.e. birth cert? Do the cops not force the Govt rules on you should they find you not obeying their (& your) masters? Sounds awfully like the definition to me

[bogan]

That YouTube shouldn't be dismissed just because it's YouTube, there's valuable info contained within




Doesn't 1.2A say money is a slave maker? "the poorest people in the world are slaves to banks" due to everyone being "excessively dependant upon" money... I mean try living in the country you were born without it
But moreso the 1st sentence "person legal property of another & forced to obey"; tell me do you have a IRD number? are you legally registered as belonging to NZ i.e. birth cert? Do the cops not force the Govt rules on you should they find you not obeying their (& your) masters? Sounds awfully like the definition to me

If it is valuable info, it'll turn up elsewhere. All information is information, but all time is time too...

Perhaps the poorest people shouldn't be taking out loans and living beyond their means then. IRD # and birth cert does not mean I'm legal property, the laws are there to prevent slavery, yes that does involve forcing law breakers not to enslave others, but it does not constitute slavery.

[Brian d marge]

Don't we all? at least mine is accurate shit though.
no and im still waiting on anything peer reviewed or anything for that matter from both you and the great flapper


That YouTube shouldn't be dismissed just because it's YouTube, there's valuable info contained within




Doesn't 1.2A say money is a slave maker? "the poorest people in the world are slaves to banks" due to everyone being "excessively dependant upon" money... I mean try living in the country you were born without it
But moreso the 1st sentence "person legal property of another & forced to obey"; tell me do you have a IRD number? are you legally registered as belonging to NZ i.e. birth cert? Do the cops not force the Govt rules on you should they find you not obeying their (& your) masters? Sounds awfully like the definition to me
yup
would agree with that

try not having an ird number and see how far you get
or paying ya tax in weed . .

or smokin it if one had an urge

your freedoms would rapidly disappear

now having ya freedom taken away because a corrupt body said so
sounds like enslavement to me

try it let me know how ya get on

[Scuba_Steve]

If it is valuable info, it'll turn up elsewhere. All information is information, but all time is time too...

Perhaps the poorest people shouldn't be taking out loans and living beyond their means then. IRD # and birth cert does not mean I'm legal property, the laws are there to prevent slavery, yes that does involve forcing law breakers not to enslave others, but it does not constitute slavery.

[God, much better to look at now... the black is back!]
Maybee so, still no reason to dismiss the YouTube version of it

So you're forced to register with the crown, you're forced to obey their rules regardless & it's a "do as I say not as I do" system... But to be honest I'm not 100% on how enslavement came into it? I'm really just playing devil; however on the original topic, everyones rights (both human & sovereign) are being raped & pillaged by the politicians, there is no doubt to that

[bogan]

no and im still waiting on anything peer reviewed or anything for that matter from both you and the great flapper


yup
would agree with that

try not having an ird numbrr and see how far you get
or paying ya tax in weed . .

or smokin it if one had an urge

your freedoms would rapidly disappear

To support which claim?

How is having an IRD number slavery though? It doesn't force you to do anything. Taxes are paid on goods purchased or sold within the bounds of our economy, what is stopping you going off the grid and living self sufficiently out in the bush?

[bogan]

[God, much better to look at now... the black is back!]
Maybee so, still no reason to dismiss the YouTube version of it

So you're forced to register with the crown, you're forced to obey their rules regardless & it's a "do as I say not as I do" system... But to be honest I'm not 100% on how enslavement came into it? I'm really just playing devil; however on the original topic, everyones rights (both human & sovereign) are being raped & pillaged by the politicians, there is no doubt to that

Yeh tell me about it.

It is reason for me, my time is valuable and I'll not waste it with youtubes, I'm seriously considering if even associating with some members of this site is just wasted time...

Some blokes insisted there was ample evidence that the govt enslaves us. Rights are being traded, not pillaged. I've given up the right of might is right so cannot commit violence against those who show me dissent, so none can commit violence against me. It just isn't slavery. Calling it slavery is quite disrespectful to those who were or are in real slavery.

[Scuba_Steve]

Yeh tell me about it.

It is reason for me, my time is valuable and I'll not waste it with youtubes, I'm seriously considering if even associating with some members of this site is just wasted time...

Some blokes insisted there was ample evidence that the govt enslaves us. Rights are being traded, not pillaged. I've given up the right of might is right so cannot commit violence against those who show me dissent, so none can commit violence against me. It just isn't slavery. Calling it slavery is quite disrespectful to those who were or are in real slavery.

unless the holder of those rights is doing the trading then they're being pillaged, else taking your bike & swapping for booze wouldn't be stealing it'd be trading...
I'd say it's fact they're "forced" into it that brings them to the slavery part. Yes it might not be dictionary definition but hell we still have people thinking the western world is "democratic"... The slavery call is a fuckload closer to literal than any democracy one

[bogan]

unless the holder of those rights is doing the trading then they're being pillaged, else taking your bike & swapping for booze wouldn't be stealing it'd be trading...
I'd say it's fact they're "forced" into it that brings them to the slavery part. Yes it might not be dictionary definition but hell we still have people thinking the western world is "democratic"... The slavery call is a fuckload closer to literal than any democracy one

Not that simple, who trades the rights to assault? the person doing the assaulting, or the one being assaulted?

It is a representative democracy, which is far from a democracy, but even further from slavery.

[Brian d marge]

To support which claim?

How is having an IRD number slavery though? It doesn't force you to do anything. Taxes are paid on goods purchased or sold within the bounds of our economy, what is stopping you going off the grid and living self sufficiently out in the bush?

ok ya did supply a dictionary quote . Its a start

Try going off grid ..and see how far ya get

the case of the Moari guy in wellington last year ( I think it was in wellington )


I would like to , and have my eye on some land and would like to build an earthship from old tyres ......buuuuuut the powers that be have decided that I will be unsafe ,,,and planning permission as of yet is .....not given ..

If I proceed to build , i.e I don't follow the rules , they will come and tear my house down at great expense ..

Try it and see how far ya get ....

Now that does sound like slavery to me ......

Stephen

[Laava]

I would like to , and have my eye on some land and would like to build an earthship from old tyres ......buuuuuut the powers that be have decided that I will be unsafe ,,,and planning permission as of yet is .....not given ..

If I proceed to build , i.e I don't follow the rules , they will come and tear my house down at great expense ..

Try it and see how far ya get ....

Now that does sound like slavery to me ......

Stephen

You are talking about Japan? That would not happen in NZ

[bogan]

ok ya did supply a dictionary quote . Its a start

Try going off grid ..and see how far ya get

the case of the Moari guy in wellington last year ( I think it was in wellington )


I would like to , and have my eye on some land and would like to build an earthship from old tyres ......buuuuuut the powers that be have decided that I will be unsafe ,,,and planning permission as of yet is .....not given ..

If I proceed to build , i.e I don't follow the rules , they will come and tear my house down at great expense ..

Try it and see how far ya get ....

Now that does sound like slavery to me ......

Stephen

Pretty piss poor effort if he went off the grid in wellington :laugh:

Now the right to self harm, that is an interesting topic. I think in the case of housing, you also risk any visitors so the choice to trade those rights is a society wide one. Now being forbidden from self harm (be it intentional or through stupidity) is slightly different, thought I would still not call this slavery, nanny state is a more appropriate term, perhaps even oppression; but not slavery.

[Brian d marge]

You are talking about Japan? That would not happen in NZ

I know been there and rejected

Im not sure about the Japanese building codes , having built a house here and all they are still greek to me

Stephen

[jonbuoy]

ok ya did supply a dictionary quote . Its a start

Try going off grid ..and see how far ya get

the case of the Moari guy in wellington last year ( I think it was in wellington )


I would like to , and have my eye on some land and would like to build an earthship from old tyres ......buuuuuut the powers that be have decided that I will be unsafe ,,,and planning permission as of yet is .....not given ..

If I proceed to build , i.e I don't follow the rules , they will come and tear my house down at great expense ..

Try it and see how far ya get ....

Now that does sound like slavery to me ......

Stephen

When you say "off grid" do you just mean electricity, water and council tax? Or do you mean you won't ever use the Police, Fire/Rescue, Ambulance/healthcare, education systems?

[Brian d marge]

me personally
the whole 9 nine yards
i know there are other like minded people including people who are quite good at health and education

but if ya stand between the man and his ounce of flesh ( taxes) he done going to get mean and nasty

[bogan]

me personally
the whole 9 nine yards
i know there are other like minded people including people who are quite good at health and education

but if ya stand between the man and his ounce of flesh ( taxes) he done going to get mean and nasty

What taxes do you pay when 100% off the grid? and what benefits do you earn for same?

[Brian d marge]

What taxes do you pay when 100% off the grid? and what benefits do you earn for same?
ya cant go completely off grid as in nothing to pay
there will be rates atthe very least
and i dont know but even if you could buy some land with no access road they would still ping ya for something

as for the benefits

ill just say that some of the happiest people on this planet are were hunter gatherers

just add some modern knowledge to that mix

myfamily were off grid for a while when i was younger

it was ok . . .could have been better if my old man actually knew what the fk he was doing

i kid you not . .he had the multi meter set on ohms to measure battery voltage . . ,

our friend . . old ladydead now had the herb farm in akaroa she wasnt 100 percent off grid but she was doing alright well into her eighties

[bogan]

ya cant go completely off grid as in nothing to pay
there will be rates atthe very least
and i dont know but even if you could buy some land with no access road they would still ping ya for something

as for the benefits

ill just say that some of the happiest people on this planet are were hunter gatherers

just add some modern knowledge to that mix

myfamily were off grid for a while when i was younger

it was ok . . .could have been better if my old man actually knew what the fk he was doing

i kid you not . .he had the multi meter set on ohms to measure battery voltage . . ,

our friend . . old ladydead now had the herb farm in akaroa she wasnt 100 percent off grid but she was doing alright well into her eighties

I meant unemployment benefits, they'll pay your rates, and then some.

And would you honestly give up all the modern tech, the society, and go off the grid if you could?

[Brian d marge]

i wouldnt apply for unemployment

and yes in a heartbeat

ive cycled around three countrys now japan ive done to death
im very comfortable up the watoozie with or without a paddle

the missus on the otherhand

[jonbuoy]

me personally
the whole 9 nine yards
i know there are other like minded people including people who are quite good at health and education

but if ya stand between the man and his ounce of flesh ( taxes) he done going to get mean and nasty

I wouldn't fancy pulling my own teeth or appendix out. Each to their own. Plenty of places in the world you can move to and live off the grid - third world countries that is. Funnily enough not many people make the move.......

[Brian d marge]

I wouldn't fancy pulling my own teeth or appendix out. Each to their own. Plenty of places in the world you can move to and live off the grid - third world countries that is. Funnily enough not many people make the move.......

ahhh there you would be wrong

quite a movement

and you are thinking in christian judaic individualistic style ...

it would be better in a community , of which there are , and growing all the time

theres one place in Arizona thats just mental !

Just because it isnt in your own paradigm doesnt mean it aint happening

Stephen

[jonbuoy]

ahhh there you would be wrong

quite a movement

and you are thinking in christian judaic individualistic style ...

it would be better in a community , of which there are , and growing all the time

theres one place in Arizona thats just mental !

Just because it isnt in your own paradigm doesnt mean it aint happening

Stephen

Awesome - so when are you joining one?

[bogan]

Awesome - so when are you joining one?

+1, the term put up or shut up does spring to mind doesn't it...

[Katman]

+1, the term put up or shut up does spring to mind doesn't it...

So back to the Youtube question.......

Is searching Youtube only valid if you're looking for videos to discredit Shorai batteries?

[bogan]

So back to the Youtube question.......

Is searching Youtube only valid if you're looking for videos to discredit Shorai batteries?

Searching youtube is only valid if you are looking for raw data, and not expert interpretation. Even then it is still less valid than a properly referenced and/or peer reviewed article.

[Katman]

Searching youtube is only valid if you are looking for raw data, and not expert interpretation. Even then it is still less valid than a properly referenced and/or peer reviewed article.

So the guy doing the battery testing on youtube wasn't giving his expert interpretation?

Could you not find a 'properly referenced and/or peer reviewed article' that discredited Shorai?

[bogan]

So the guy doing the battery testing on youtube wasn't giving his expert interpretation?

Could you not find a 'properly referenced and/or peer reviewed article' that discredited Shorai?

No, it was just your standard interpretation.

I couldn't find one about a product comparison at all. Which makes sense because they don't tend to do consumer advice so much.

It's worth noting shorai show the same info on their own website too, and the video was posted to show a certain shorai salesman how to interpret said part of the website (which eventually succeeded).

[Katman]

No, it was just your standard interpretation.

I couldn't find one about a product comparison at all. Which makes sense because they don't tend to do consumer advice so much.

It's worth noting shorai show the same info on their own website too, and the video was posted to show a certain shorai salesman how to interpret said part of the website (which eventually succeeded).

So youtube is ok when it suits you?

[bogan]

So youtube is ok when it suits you?

No, youtube is ok when the presenter doesn't lie or otherwise overstate what is shown, and when it is presented in a succinct manner.

[Katman]

No, youtube is ok when the presenter doesn't lie or otherwise overstate what is shown, and when it is presented in a succinct manner.

So how do you know whether that is the case without watching the video first?

Perhaps it has something to do with choosing to ignore evidence that doesn't suit you.

[BuzzardNZ]

So back to the Youtube question.......

Is searching Youtube only valid if you're looking for videos to discredit Shorai batteries?

Oh I remember those , very entertaining and sure got Ed's hackles up at the time!

[bogan]

So how do you know whether that is the case without watching the video first?

Perhaps it has something to do with ignoring evidence that doesn't suit you.

That's what the summary of what is being presented is for. Ie, I would have posted that and said; here is a video showing a battery not outputting the number of CCAs listed on the box (or something to that effect).
So a reader can then think, well that is not an expert interpretation, and it is something which shows enough evidence for me to make a call; so I can watch it to confirm.

On the other hand, when somebody posts a video and says this shows how nanothermite was present; well I think, I don't know what nanothermite looks like (but I'm fairly sure you cannot discern it with the naked eye) so this video must have expert interpretation; but what is to say that interpretation is correct? I am no expert in that field, and the presenter might not even be either. I would far rather see a peer reviewed article so I can follow the logical deductions used, and be confident that it has at least been reviewed by people in the same field.

[bogan]

Oh I remember those , very entertaining and sure got Ed's hackles up at the time!

You remember his own 'expert' test showing 800CCA too :laugh: good times.

[Katman]

I am no expert in that field, and the presenter might not even be either.

The evidence was presented by a university chemistry professor.

(I'm glad we've finally established just how full of shit you are though).

[Brian d marge]

Awesome - so when are you joining one?


+1, the term put up or shut up does spring to mind doesn't it...

Between the end of this year and mid next year , Im off on my bicycle and will be passing though NZ

and as you think its awesome , I assume in the positive light , I hope your community spirit applies to travellers

As for put up or shut up ,,,,

this is my 5th country , I've traversed ..... some peered review evidence added below , probably a damn site more than you have ever done

nice try but they are waiting for u at fail.com

309325309326these were 2015 from Tokyo to Kyoto and back


Stephen

[Ocean1]

what is stopping you going off the grid and living self sufficiently out in the bush?

Probably the same thing that prevents most of 'em living self sufficiently in society: the lack of the required work ethic.

[Ocean1]

ill just say that some of the happiest people on this planet are were hunter gatherers


Know them well did you?

I'll wager they were a great deal more sick, ill fed, lousy and short lived than anyone you claim is "enslaved" to some vague concept of an evel democracy you seem to think rules us all.

[bogan]

The evidence was presented by a university chemistry professor.

(I'm glad we've finally established just how full of shit you are though).

Like I said, might not be. Some are, like your example one but since it is still an expert interpretation, the vids are largely useless except to say, this is what some bloke thinks. I'm not ok with just taking somebody else word for it, no matter how qualified they are.

[bogan]

Between the end of this year and mid next year , Im off on my bicycle and will be passing though NZ

and as you think its awesome , I assume in the positive light , I hope your community spirit applies to travellers

As for put up or shut up ,,,,

this is my 5th country , I've traversed ..... some peered review evidence added below , probably a damn site more than you have ever done

nice try but they are waiting for u at fail.com


And will you be using roads on said bicycle? and the internet while you do so?

Like I said, you claim to want to go off grid, yet here you are, still very much plugged in.

In this case, it is put up and shut up, because if you are putting up (going off the grid) there will not be internet access.

[Katman]

I'm not ok with just taking somebody else word for it, no matter how qualified they are.

Nobody says you have to take their word.

But you have to at least hear their word before you can form an opinion on it.

[bogan]

Nobody says you have to take their word.

But you have to at least hear their word before you can form an opinion on it.

Why would you form an opinion on their word instead of just the evidence though? :scratch:

[jonbuoy]

Between the end of this year and mid next year , Im off on my bicycle and will be passing though NZ

and as you think its awesome , I assume in the positive light , I hope your community spirit applies to travellers

As for put up or shut up ,,,,

this is my 5th country , I've traversed ..... some peered review evidence added below , probably a damn site more than you have ever done

nice try but they are waiting for u at fail.com

309325309326these were 2015 from Tokyo to Kyoto and back


Stephen

What has cycling got to do with it? After working in Africa and the Middle East I'll take western based "enslavement" any day of the week. How much time have you spent in Africa/Middle East?

[Katman]

Why would you form an opinion on their word instead of just the evidence though? :scratch:

Their word is presenting the evidence, you dumb fuck.

[bogan]

Their word is presenting the evidence, you dumb fuck.

Exactly, they may well not be presenting it impartially either, so it is best you form your opinion on the evidence presented, and that alone.

[Brian d marge]

Know them well did you?

I'll wager they were a great deal more sick, ill fed, lousy and short lived than anyone you claim is "enslaved" to some vague concept of an evel democracy you seem to think rules us all.
wrong again as per usual

some of the best fed least stressed people I can think of

[Brian d marge]

And will you be using roads on said bicycle? and the internet while you do so?

Like I said, you claim to want to go off grid, yet here you are, still very much plugged in.

In this case, it is put up and shut up, because if you are putting up (going off the grid) there will not be internet access.
stop being stupid

but your right . . . .no internet

[Katman]

Exactly, they may well not be presenting it impartially either, so it is best you form your opinion on the evidence presented, and that alone.

You yourself claimed to have not heard of the nano-thermite evidence.

How the fuck are you ever going to hear it if you refuse to listen to it.

Fuck me, you make Ed sound intelligent.

[FJRider]

Nobody says you have to take their word.

But you have to at least hear their word before you can form an opinion on it.

Oi ... I have MY opinion .... Nobody's "Word" will change that ... <_<

[FJRider]

you yourself claimed to have not heard of the nano-thermite evidence.

How the fuck are you ever going to hear it if you refuse to listen to it.

Fuck me, you make ed sound intelligent.

esp ...................................

[Brian d marge]

Probably the same thing that prevents most of 'em living self sufficiently in society: the lack of the required work ethic.
probably a better more hollistic work ethic

[yokel]

Why would you form an opinion on their word instead of just the evidence though? :scratch:


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/8rh6qqsmxNs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

..........

[Brian d marge]

What has cycling got to do with it? After working in Africa and the Middle East I'll take western based "enslavement" any day of the week. How much time have you spent in Africa/Middle East?
about the same time you have lived on the moon

what a stupid reply

cycling, . .distance cycling is about as close to off grid self sufficiency as i can get under present circumstances

and as i said my old man was fully off grid for about 6 or 7 years so i do have half an idea about the whole subject

unfortuantly this society is all invasive , so unless one take himself up the amazon

you will in due course, use or have to deal with western influences

i also have responsibilty for 2 kids

i you are happy with your lot thats fine nowt to do with me

[jonbuoy]

about the same time you have lived on the moon

what a stupid reply

cycling, . .distance cycling is about as close to off grid self sufficiency as i can get under present circumstances

and as i said my old man was fully off grid for about 6 or 7 years so i do have half an idea about the whole subject

unfortuantly this society is all invasive , so unless one take himself up the amazon

you will in due course, use or have to deal with western influences

i also have responsibilty for 2 kids

i you are happy with your lot thats fine nowt to do with me

So not much experience outside of our nice and safe western society?

Living life on the road on a bike isn't being self sufficient- if you get knocked off a well equipped ambulance will turn up and patch you up again. The roads your able to ride on- all paid for by the evil governments. If you need parts a local shop will save you having to melt ore into bike parts. Unless your trapping or eating road kill you will be buying food - or going hungry. Other than turning calories into forward motion which bit is self sufficient??

[bogan]

stop being stupid

but your right . . . .no internet

Seems on the mark to me, off the grid would mean not using roads, nor internet. That is what you want isn't it? so why are you still here?


You yourself claimed to have not heard of the nano-thermite evidence.

How the fuck are you ever going to hear it if you refuse to listen to it.

Fuck me, you make Ed sound intelligent.

You seem to be confusing one persons opinion (the video), with the concept of evidence (things that can be directly observed from an article, video, or other source). If you think the latter is in the video, then summarise in what capacity that is; if you cannot make such a summary, it stands to reason the video contains nothing more than one bloke's opinion; ergo, not evidence.

[Ocean1]

wrong again as per usual

some of the best fed least stressed people I can think of

Show me...

[Brian d marge]

So not much experience outside of our nice and safe western society?

Living life on the road on a bike isn't being self sufficient- if you get knocked off a well equipped ambulance will turn up and patch you up again. The roads your able to ride on- all paid for by the evil governments. If you need parts a local shop will save you having to melt ore into bike parts. Unless your trapping or eating road kill you will be buying food - or going hungry. Other than turning calories into forward motion which bit is self sufficient??
ha?

you have no idea what you are talking about

absolutely

even here in japan there are places ive been that if u were in trouble its siyonara and that japan and as different from western culture as u can get

[Katman]

If you think the latter is in the video, then summarise in what capacity that is;

I'm not your nursemaid, you lazy fuck.

[Brian d marge]

Seems on the mark to me, off the grid would mean not using roads, nor internet. That is what you want isn't it? so why are you still here?

.
just sent a letter to jon key asking him to dig up all the roads prior to my trip

its the society i was born into and have to deal with
i dont like it and think it could be a million times better . . and i try and work towards that

in the mean time . . .

[bogan]

I'm not your nursemaid, you lazy fuck.

This tells me all I need to know, you will push an opinion, but when it comes to evidence you have nothing to give.

[Brian d marge]

Show me...
think of an amazon jungle dweller

then google it

ive got to go back to work

[bogan]

just sent a letter to jon key asking him to dig up all the roads prior to my trip

its the society i was born into and have to deal with
i dont like it and think it could be a million times better . . and i try and work towards that

in the mean time . . .

Have you been here before? plenty of land with no roads in sight. You don't have to change the country to go off the grid.

Begin the change with yourself then, don't bother sending letters as we are quite happy with our roads.

[Brian d marge]

Have you been here before? plenty of land with no roads in sight. You don't have to change the country to go off the grid.

Begin the change with yourself then, don't bother sending letters as we are quite happy with our roads.
three weeks bow hunting in south island
well one week fishing in kaitereteri and two weeks bow hunting

the off grid house was in akaroa and me folks now live in north canterbury

this is a schoolboy conversation

[bogan]

three weeks bow hunting in south island
well one week fishing in kaitereteri
the off grid house was in akaroa and me folks now live in north canterbury

this is a schoolboy conversation

Then why would you think you can't go off the grid completely here?

[Brian d marge]

Then why would you think you can't go off the grid completely here?
have a look at a map, and it will answer your own question

[Ocean1]

think of an amazon jungle dweller

then google it

ive got to go back to work

OK: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21789415

"Worldwide, indigenous peoples display a high burden of disease, expressed by profound health inequalities in comparison to non-indigenous populations. This study describes mortality patterns among the Guarani in Southern and Southeastern Brazil, with a focus on health inequalities. The Guarani population structure is indicative of high birth and death rates, low median age and low life expectancy at birth. The crude mortality rate (crude MR = 5.0/1,000) was similar to the Brazilian national rate, but the under-five MR (44.5/1,000) and the infant mortality rate (29.6/1,000) were twice the corresponding MR in the South and Southeast of Brazil. The proportion of post-neonatal infant deaths was 83.3%, 2.4 times higher than general population. The proportions of ill-defined (15.8%) and preventable causes (51.6%) were high. The principal causes of death were respiratory (40.6%) and infectious and parasitic diseases (18.8%), suggesting precarious living conditions and deficient health services."

So "off the grid" = utter shite conditions. Doesn't it?

In fact it was, and for indigenous communities still living "off the grid" still is a life sentence of fucking hard work and unrelenting pain and hunger. Isn't it?

Not, perhaps the most attractive alternative to a modern capitalist, democratic global trade civilisation, is it?

More something to be avoided at all costs. Ain't it?

[Brian d marge]

OK: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21789415

"Worldwide, indigenous peoples display a high burden of disease, expressed by profound health inequalities in comparison to non-indigenous populations. This study describes mortality patterns among the Guarani in Southern and Southeastern Brazil, with a focus on health inequalities. The Guarani population structure is indicative of high birth and death rates, low median age and low life expectancy at birth. The crude mortality rate (crude MR = 5.0/1,000) was similar to the Brazilian national rate, but the under-five MR (44.5/1,000) and the infant mortality rate (29.6/1,000) were twice the corresponding MR in the South and Southeast of Brazil. The proportion of post-neonatal infant deaths was 83.3%, 2.4 times higher than general population. The proportions of ill-defined (15.8%) and preventable causes (51.6%) were high. The principal causes of death were respiratory (40.6%) and infectious and parasitic diseases (18.8%), suggesting precarious living conditions and deficient health services."

So "off the grid" = utter shite conditions. Doesn't it?

In fact it was, and for indigenous communities still living "off the grid" still is a life sentence of fucking hard work and unrelenting pain and hunger. Isn't it?

Not, perhaps the most attractive alternative to a modern capitalist, democratic global trade civilisation, is it?

More something to be avoided at all costs. Ain't it?
looks horrible dont it

wonder what some of the western ones look like :)

some people over here are dropping dead through hard work and that aint good

when i get a chance ill look into this

[bogan]

have a look at a map, and it will answer your own question

What about the section of bush just behind my parents place, 94,000 ha should surely be enough for you...

[Scuba_Steve]

Then why would you think you can't go off the grid completely here?

Because you can't*

*If the oppressors find you cutting trees & clearing bush for a little shelter off the grid on land you aren't paying them money for they'll bust it down & drag you through their legal system faster than you can say "fuck off"... Course they might house & feed you for awhile at the expense of the tax payer & against both parties wishes but they won't let you live outside the system.

[puddytat]

And will you be using roads on said bicycle? and the internet while you do so?

Like I said, you claim to want to go off grid, yet here you are, still very much plugged in.

In this case, it is put up and shut up, because if you are putting up (going off the grid) there will not be internet access.

Why does going off the grid have to be all or nothing....you'd be fucking stupid to try & to do so, what are you a Luddite?
Obviously you'd want as many techy bits & tools as you need to be a Hi-Tech Hippy.
Oh, & the biggest hurdle would be weaning yourself of debt. With debt you'll never be truly free.

The people I know who are having a serious crack at it are some of the hardest working people I know & they are nearly all to a tee trying there hardest to not have to rely on a system they don't believe will be there for them when the shit hits the fan.

Good luck muppets.

[bogan]

Why does going off the grid have to be all or nothing....you'd be fucking stupid to try & to do so, what are you a Luddite?
Obviously you'd want as many techy bits & tools as you need to be a Hi-Tech Hippy.
Oh, & the biggest hurdle would be weaning yourself of debt. With debt you'll never be truly free.

The people I know who are having a serious crack at it are some of the hardest working people I know & they are nearly all to a tee trying there hardest to not have to rely on a system they don't believe will be there for them when the shit hits the fan.

Good luck muppets.

Because it was about govt enslavement vs enslavement of the mind. I'm not enslaved by either so have no desire to go off the grid in any shape or form myself. But to those who insist they are enslaved by the govt and 'its' system of barter I suggest they just go completely off the grid to exercise their freedoms, hence the all or nothing approach.

Weaning yourself of debt is a very good way to put it.

I can respect that 100%, be the change etc...

[Brian d marge]

.

Weaning yourself of debt is a very good way to put it.

I can respect that 100%, be the change etc...

now here we can agree

sorry about that

[jonbuoy]

ha?

you have no idea what you are talking about

absolutely

even here in japan there are places ive been that if u were in trouble its siyonara and that japan and as different from western culture as u can get

Nope the hard core Middle East and lawless parts of Africa are as different from western culture as you can get. Japan's not that different in the grand scheme of things.

[puddytat]

Yeah but Japan has the advantage of a VERY strong culture which in times of chaos will make a huge difference in how as a nation they will handle it.
Countries that are basket cases now will only get worserer.
Colonel Kurtz's "the horror" is going global.


Its an Apocalypse Now thing.....

[Brian d marge]

Nope the hard core Middle East and lawless parts of Africa are as different from western culture as you can get. Japan's not that different in the grand scheme of things.
since when has poor people running around with guns got to do with culture
two of my clients have just come back from nigeria and love the place
thats africa isnt it

japan is completely different from the west .
period

[jonbuoy]

since when has poor people running around with guns got to do with culture
two of my clients have just come back from nigeria and love the place
thats africa isnt it

japan is completely different from the west .
period

Been to Japan before - not so different - still a nice stable safe country. The cappuccino anarchists would be shitting themselves if they ever did end up in a country with no government control. Without the government it ends up being the strongest gangs/families that control things.

The ones that think our governments are intrusive should try living in the Middle East - a internet except for sattelite based is filtered and scanned. You wouldn't be able to post comments like this about the government.

Nigeria is or was a complete shit hole - not sure how anyone can say it's a great place - not uncommon to see dead bodies just left by the sides of the roads to rot. Better pray you don't need a blood transfusion or decent medical care out there.

[pete376403]

Been to Japan before - not so different - still a nice stable safe country. The cappuccino anarchists would be shitting themselves if they ever did end up in a country with no government control. Without the government it ends up being the strongest gangs/families that control things..

Oh I dunno - Belgium did ok without a government for nearly two years.

[Brian d marge]

Been to Japan before - not so different - still a nice stable safe country. The cappuccino anarchists would be shitting themselves if they ever did end up in a country with no government control. Without the government it ends up being the strongest gangs/families that control things.

The ones that think our governments are intrusive should try living in the Middle East - a internet except for sattelite based is filtered and scanned. You wouldn't be able to post comments like this about the government.

Nigeria is or was a complete shit hole - not sure how anyone can say it's a great place - not uncommon to see dead bodies just left by the sides of the roads to rot. Better pray you don't need a blood transfusion or decent medical care out there.
if you have to japan before you would know that the cultures are 180 degrees different
night and day
what . . .ill say again has people running around with guns have to do with culture or living offthe grid

as of last saturday ,nigeria was reported to be quite a nice place

Lots of Honda workers are over therebuilding a service network and looop photovoltaic are were thinking about sponsoring the football team

the only complaint was the price of the safari park 50 us dollars odd

now IF you are talking about SHTF and WROL situations

then yes doubt i would survive too

even with the skills i have . . I MIGHT be ok for about a month or two . . long term . . yes well

the bbc did a wonderful what if documentary its on you tube

but all of that has nowt todo with living off grid

[Brian d marge]

Oh I dunno - Belgium did ok without a government for nearly two years.
oh that was a classic . . along the lines of we should jail bankers . .iceland

local govern . . community even is the way to go

these super cities are just an orwelian nightmare

[jonbuoy]

if you have to japan before you would know that the cultures are 180 degrees different
night and day
what . . .ill say again has people running around with guns have to do with culture or living offthe grid

as of last saturday ,nigeria was reported to be quite a nice place

Lots of Honda workers are over therebuilding a service network and looop photovoltaic are were thinking about sponsoring the football team

the only complaint was the price of the safari park 50 us dollars odd

now IF you are talking about SHTF and WROL situations

then yes doubt i would survive too

even with the skills i have . . I MIGHT be ok for about a month or two . . long term . . yes well

the bbc did a wonderful what if documentary its on you tube

but all of that has nowt todo with living off grid

Japan has a different culture to NZ as Spain and Germany do but not so far apart as Saudi Arabia and Nigeria are to us. Visited Tokyo, Hiroshima and Kyoto felt perfectly safe was clean hygenic and still had the same "cafe/bar" culture men freely mixing with women. I would go back tomorrow.

Would never go back to working in Nigeria - not worth the extra money for the risk of being kidnapped or getting seriously ill out there. Thats why they have to pay their oil workers big bucks - and its still not worth it for most people capable of getting work elsewhere. You want to live off the grid - thats how a lot of people live out there and they didn't look happy to me.

At the other extreme I would never go back to Saudi either - no social scene except in some of the big western hotels, heavily censored and filtered internet, men and women unable to mix freely, chop chop square still in service. A lot of workers out there are living in genuine slavery.

You aren´t slaves - just spoilt whiny bitches who don´t know how good you have it.

[Brian d marge]

sounds like you are one of those kiwi that just dont fit in and piss the locals off
ie earls court
sorry ya dead wrong about japan been here 16 years now and even though i speak japanese i still do not fully understand the culture
and ive spent a lot of time studying it

so I KNOW you dont

and alls good and fine if you think its all good and fine then more power to ya
just pay ya tax and watch strictly come dancing its a good show

[jonbuoy]

sounds like you are one of those kiwi that just dont fit in and piss the locals off
ie earls court
sorry ya dead wrong about japan been here 16 years now and even though i speak japanese i still do not fully understand the culture
and ive spent a lot of time studying it

so I KNOW you dont

and alls good and fine if you think its all good and fine then more power to ya
just pay ya tax and watch strictly come dancing its a good show

I guess you've been drinking and posting....again.

[bogan]

World counter:

New Zealand = First
Japan = First
Them others = Third

Spot the difference...

[Voltaire]

sounds like you are one of those kiwi that just dont fit in and piss the locals off
ie earls court
sorry ya dead wrong about japan been here 16 years now and even though i speak japanese i still do not fully understand the culture
and ive spent a lot of time studying it

so I KNOW you dont

and alls good and fine if you think its all good and fine then more power to ya
just pay ya tax and watch strictly come dancing its a good show

Earls Court....have Kiwis been there in the last 20 years?, was no longer a big thing when I was there in the 80's.

I have not been to Japan but was it not until they were nudged into opening up in the mid to late 1800's a feudal place much like Europe in Robin Hood times?
From memory they had a Prime Minister or Emperor who embraced change and by WW1 they had a pretty big navy based on the Royal Navy and even took on the Russians in 1905 ish and later on the Germans in China during WW1.
By WW2 they had a fleet of air craft carriers and modern fighter planes.
They still had this strange belief that the Emperor was a God and could be convinced to kill themselves for him.....sound familiar?
Their culture may be quite different to ours but its very Westernised, like they don't wear Komonos to work and carry Samuris on the train?

Africa and the Middle East continued on with medieval, that's tribalism and religion for you.
The West have added to the mess by replacing the spears,swords and horses with machine guns and Toyota utes.
Seeds and Tractors would be a better thing to give them.
ISIS have no manufacturing capability and for that stupid Iraqi bloke to say its an impeding WW3 shows how little he knows.
Find out who is financing ISIS and supplying them with equipment and shut that down.
They probably got most of it from Iraq, who got it from the West.
Thats my between boring reports at work mini rant, back to ticking boxes :yawn:

[Scuba_Steve]

World counter:

New Zealand = First
Japan = First
Them others = Third

Spot the difference...

^ Japan's only 1 word the other 2 are 2 words... I win right? :sunny:

[Katman]

Find out who is financing ISIS and supplying them with equipment and shut that down.
They probably got most of it from Iraq, who got it from the West.


Let's not forget the funding they've received from Saudi Arabia - one of America's allies.

[Scuba_Steve]

Let's not forget the funding they've received from Saudi Arabia - one of America's allies.

They're funded by at-least 4 US allies & if we want to go into conspiracy theories some suspect it's the US doing the funding

[Brian d marge]

I guess you've been drinking and posting....again.
not at all

just cant be arsed with a schoolboy conversation

more interesting things to do

ocean1 post about poverty for ex

[Brian d marge]

for the record
japan may wear suits and be a first world country

but underneath its very complex

just as an example.
they hardly if ever use personal pronouns
and there are three form of wa of
ninjo inclination
giri expectation
om obligation

im not sure how this works completely . .

I can say i understand the japanese about　80 %

[Scuba_Steve]

I can say i understand the japanese about　80 %

Going by TV shows, consumer products, & games from Jappa land I don't think even the Japanese understand the Japanese :laugh:

[Brian d marge]

Going by TV shows, consumer products, & games from Jappa land I don't think even the Japanese understand the Japanese :laugh:
they used to be great . . there was one i kid you not
the woman had guess which one was her partner by giving blowjobs to three fellas they were behind a screen with old fellas sticking out holes in screen

all tame now . .

[Brian d marge]

OK: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21789415

"Worldwide, indigenous peoples display a high burden of disease, expressed by profound health inequalities in comparison to non-indigenous populations. This study describes mortality patterns among the Guarani in Southern and Southeastern Brazil, with a focus on health inequalities. The Guarani population structure is indicative of high birth and death rates, low median age and low life expectancy at birth. The crude mortality rate (crude MR = 5.0/1,000) was similar to the Brazilian national rate, but the under-five MR (44.5/1,000) and the infant mortality rate (29.6/1,000) were twice the corresponding MR in the South and Southeast of Brazil. The proportion of post-neonatal infant deaths was 83.3%, 2.4 times higher than general population. The proportions of ill-defined (15.8%) and preventable causes (51.6%) were high. The principal causes of death were respiratory (40.6%) and infectious and parasitic diseases (18.8%), suggesting precarious living conditions and deficient health services."

So "off the grid" = utter shite conditions. Doesn't it?

In fact it was, and for indigenous communities still living "off the grid" still is a life sentence of fucking hard work and unrelenting pain and hunger. Isn't it?

Not, perhaps the most attractive alternative to a modern capitalist, democratic global trade civilisation, is it?

More something to be avoided at all costs. Ain't it?
well well
turns out . . .so far

if you google happiness of indigenous peoples

turns out that they are happy

yes the kids drop dead at 4 and 3/4 　and grandfather goes a tad stiff and starts smelling funky well before his time

but in the mean time life is good

what would be interesting would be the mortality rate and the happiness rate between western and indigenous people with the same access to health care

basically im guessing that its sucky to be poor in a society that promotes individulistic values

and community driven people still poor . .but much happier

[Brian d marge]

dont worry he is talking about france , nz will be fine


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/gQXftj8K5_c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

not .....

hows those house prices , sheeples......


Stephen

[oldrider]

dont worry he is talking about france , nz will be fine hows those house prices,sheeples......Stephen

The evil of which he speaks is Rothschild Zionism and their new world order to be finally centered in Israel once they are finished with the USA and have dealt to Islam!

The groundwork preparations has already well begun:http://www.rense.com/general44/gikdeb.htm

Ask yourself - Why does a tiny country like Israel require such large lavish government buildings? :shifty:

[Oscar]

The evil of which he speaks is Rothschild Zionism and their new world order to be finally centered in Israel once they are finished with the USA and have dealt to Islam!

The groundwork preparations has already well begun:http://www.rense.com/general44/gikdeb.htm

Ask yourself - Why does a tiny country like Israel require such large lavish government buildings? :shifty:

Even for you, this is bigoted drivel.
The fact that you would read this dross says something about your sad mental decline:


As we turn to the left and begin to walk towards the Pyramid we notice a metal strip in the marble floor. The Ley-Lines cross directly under the pyramid they run from this place to different places in the city. It is where the Judges and others can stand to receive knowledge and power. Standing directly over a piece of crystal with the all Seeing Eye of Lucifer the light bearer above them.

For those who are not aware of the term Ley-Lines, it is lines in geographical places that Witches, Warlock, and Wizards walk claiming for the Devil. If you will notice in every large city all palm readers and such are usually on the same street that is a ley-line.


You should seek professional help.

[Katman]

The fact that you would read this dross says something about your sad mental decline:


You're very closed minded, aren't you Oscar?

You, Ed and bogan should form a tag team.

[yokel]

Even for you, this is bigoted drivel.
The fact that you would read this dross says something about your sad mental decline:



You should seek professional help.

The fact you won't read something says a lot about your mental decline.

If you don't think there's something to this Zionism stuff you have rocks in you head.

[mashman]

You're very closed minded, aren't you Oscar?

You, Ed and bogan should form a tag team.

Surely a mind is required in order to open or close it.

[Oscar]

You're very closed minded, aren't you Oscar?

You, Ed and bogan should form a tag team.

Closed minded?
Did you read that drivel?
Unlike him, you are obviously no idiot, so having read it, do you believe it?

[Oscar]

The fact you won't read something says a lot about your mental decline.

If you don't think there's something to this Zionism stuff you have rocks in you head.

Wow, you're the idiot that just won't shut up, aren't you?
No really, you can stop, you qualified as the local village idiot long ago.

Firstly, I read it. that's why I commented on it, and posted an excerpt.
Secondly, that drivel has very little to do with Zionism.

[Oscar]

Surely a mind is required in order to open or close it.

...and here's the Chief Village idiot, exercising what passes for wit in Fuckknuckle Street.

[ellipsis]

... Toscars crap...

...you are a fuckwit...can you disprove this assertion?...didn't think so...it must be true...knobsuck...I await your further uninspired drivel...

[mashman]

...and here's the Chief Village idiot, exercising what passes for wit in Fuckknuckle Street.

I know the people :D

[Oscar]

...you are a fuckwit...can you disprove this assertion?...didn't think so...it must be true...knobsuck...I await your further uninspired drivel...

Can I disprove Zionist ley-lines running through Jeruslem?
Why would I bother?

The only fuckwit here is someone that would read that and take it at face value.
Obviously you lack the use of any critical thinking faculties...

[Oscar]

I know the people :D

To be fair, I can see why you wouldn't waste the good stuff on this crowd...:D

[ellipsis]

Can I
use any critical thinking faculties...


...wouldn't know the answer to that but it seems that way...do you really think I'm here to argue or split hairs about any of this bullshit?...I'm only here to call you for what you are are...a fucking ignorant wank that between strokes of his cock retorts in a childlike manner to any post that you have trouble in accepting, be it the truth an opinion or utter shite...you are a keyboard tosser, Toscar...it amuses me to the point of wanting to read more of your shite...you are almost entertaining, for a tosser...

[Oscar]

...wouldn't know the answer to that but it seems that way...do you really think I'm here to argue or split hairs about any of this bullshit?...I'm only here to call you for what you are are...a fucking ignorant wank that between strokes of his cock retorts in a childlike manner to any post that you have trouble in accepting, be it the truth an opinion or utter shite...you are a keyboard tosser, Toscar...it amuses me to the point of wanting to read more of your shite...you are almost entertaining, for a tosser...

So I ask you a question and you go off on a tangent.
Hypocrite.

[ellipsis]

So I ask you a question and you go off on a tangent.
Hypocrite.


...I dont have a tangent...I have a sportster and some hondas...

[Oscar]

...I dont have a tangent...I have a sportster and some hondas...

You're an angry wee man though.
You seem to think I shouldn't challenge the Old Coot on his anti-semetic nonsense.
Why is that?

[mashman]

You seem to think I shouldn't challenge the Old Coot on his anti-semetic nonsense.
Why is that?

Oooo, I missed that bit. Did Oldrider pin something on the Jewish people?

[Oscar]

Oooo, I missed that bit. Did Oldrider pin something on the Jewish people?

He couldn't pin something on the side of a barn door.

[mashman]

He couldn't pin something on the side of a barn door.

But the Jewish aren't Amish... and wtf would they be doing with a barn? Other than renting it out in case they witness the second coming. Anyhoo, you mean he didn't? Bit misleading bro.

[Oscar]

But the Jewish aren't Amish... and wtf would they be doing with a barn? Other than renting it out in case they witness the second coming. Anyhoo, you mean he didn't? Bit misleading bro.

It was your analogy.
I merely continued it.

Anyway -
The evil of which he speaks is Rothschild Zionism and their new world order to be finally centered in Israel once they are finished with the USA and have dealt to Islam!

[ellipsis]

You're an angry cunt though.



...you got that right...but I think you may think I have an opinion on rights, wrongs, zionists, yids, sandniggers, yanks, ukies, or cornering safely at speed, but I dont...I'm just an accident of birth who happened to be born in a beautiful country, overly weighted with overly opinionated clowns who wouldn't know shit from clay but profess to have it all sussed...I'm waiting to win lotto...which wont happen because the odds are way too long so I don't buy the tickets...disagree with whoever you like, I'm only here for the entertainment...I could have a more in depth and fulfilling conversation with Trev, my neighbour, who is a retired farm hack...he is a neigh sayer mostly even if he knows I'm right...

[mashman]

It was your analogy.
I merely continued it.

Anyway -

There was no analogy.

So he didn't. Makes you seem like nought much more than an angry man. Projection springs to mind.

[Oscar]

There was no analogy.

So he didn't. Makes you seem like nought much more than an angry man. Projection springs to mind.

I was referring to your Aimish barn analogy.
It was yours.

He didn't what?
Post anti-semitic bullshit?
Lame Jewish comspiracy fuckwittery?

He certainly does.
And when challenged, he wanks on about asking questions or some such.

[Oscar]

...you got that right...but I think you may think I have an opinion on rights, wrongs, zionists, yids, sandniggers, yanks, ukies, or cornering safely at speed, but I dont...I'm just an accident of birth who happened to be born in a beautiful country, overly weighted with overly opinionated clowns who wouldn't know shit from clay but profess to have it all sussed...I'm waiting to win lotto...which wont happen because the odds are way too long so I don't buy the tickets...disagree with whoever you like, I'm only here for the entertainment...I could have a more in depth and fulfilling conversation with Trev, my neighbour, who is a retired farm hack...he is a neigh sayer mostly even if he knows I'm right...

So why is it any skin of your scrotum if I challenge the silly old cahnt on his stupid drivel?
I'll bet if I posted summat that you felt was wrong, propaganda or just downright stupid, you'd be on my case...

[mashman]

I was referring to your Aimish barn analogy.
It was yours.

He didn't what?
Post anti-semitic bullshit?
Lame Jewish comspiracy fuckwittery?

He certainly does.
And when challenged, he wanks on about asking questions or some such.

It was your Jewish barn first.

I must have missed those posts too.

[ellipsis]

So why is it any skin of your scrotum if I challenge the silly old cahnt on his stupid drivel?
I'll bet if I posted summat that you felt was wrong, propaganda or just downright stupid, you'd be on my case...


...'cos you son, are on the list...have you only just fathomed that...oh dear...if you don't or can't keep up, you will be off the list...then I'll only have Husa as a friend...:blink:

[Oscar]

...'cos you son, are on the list...have you only just fathomed that...oh dear...if you don't or can't keep up, you will be off the list...then I'll only have Husa as a friend...:blink:

Friends are over-rated.
Enemies are much more fun.

[Oscar]

It was your Jewish barn first.

I must have missed those posts too.

You miss a lot.

[mashman]

You miss a lot.

http://vesnaironingservices.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/gomlek_utuleme2.jpg

[Oscar]

http://vesnaironingservices.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/gomlek_utuleme2.jpg

Gee, you guys get good value out of a pun.
Flog it to death whilst simpering into your soy chai lattes.

[yokel]

Friends are over-rated.
Enemies are much more fun.

friends come and go, but enemies accumulate.

[ellipsis]

friends come and go, but enemas accumulate.

...you can't accumulate that much after an enema...it kind of goes against the principle...

[yokel]

...you can't accumulate that much after an enema...it kind of goes against the principle...

well according to Oscar "Enemas are much more fun" guess we'll have to take his word on that.

[Oscar]

well according to Oscar "Enemas are much more fun" guess we'll have to take his word on that.

The way the crap flows outta you, enema's are the least of your worries.

[Brian d marge]

oscars back

we have missed him

[yokel]

The way the crap flows outta you, enema's are the least of your worries.

I think you need more enema's cause you're still full of shit.

youtube, it's my education.


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/i8S-YBPkiyA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Brian d marge]

you think thats bad
you should see what japan is planning

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-02-20/japan-s-constitutional-change-is-move-toward-autocracy

[Ocean1]

well well
turns out . . .so far

if you google happiness of indigenous peoples

turns out that they are happy

yes the kids drop dead at 4 and 3/4 　and grandfather goes a tad stiff and starts smelling funky well before his time

but in the mean time life is good

what would be interesting would be the mortality rate and the happiness rate between western and indigenous people with the same access to health care

basically im guessing that its sucky to be poor in a society that promotes individulistic values

and community driven people still poor . .but much happier

How are you associating "individualistic" values with rich societies? The word you're desperately trying to avoid is "responsible' values. Y'know, where you contribute at least as much as you spend. And as far as I can see those that do not only form a healthy community but a pretty happy one. It's just the parasites that are unhappy, which is entirely appropriate.

But if you're happier seeing 3 out of four your kids die, living with permanent pain, lice and a more or less continuous hunger until you die of old age at 35 then by all means fuck off and live "off the grid". But I doubt you'll have much company to call "community".

Your choice. Just don't whine like a bitch at the rest of us for choosing otherwise.

[Brian d marge]

How are you associating "individualistic" values with rich societies? The word you're desperately trying to avoid is "responsible' values. Y'know, where you contribute at least as much as you spend. And as far as I can see those that do not only form a healthy community but a pretty happy one. It's just the parasites that are unhappy, which is entirely appropriate.

But if you're happier seeing 3 out of four your kids die, living with permanent pain, lice and a more or less continuous hunger until you die of old age at 35 then by all means fuck off and live "off the grid". But I doubt you'll have much company to call "community".

Your choice. Just don't whine like a bitch at the rest of us for choosing otherwise.

Might even contribute MORE than I spend ....how does that fit in with your Old world view .....
might even be a better place ....?

Your confusing Poverty and lack of health care access with * off the grid* again....and the community just seems to be gaining traction , just like Rome before its fall

The only whining you get from me , is to do with the garbage left by the never had it so goods, we will be clearing that mess up for generations

Hows ya house price ... doing well???


Stephen

[Ocean1]

Your confusing Poverty and lack of health care access with * off the grid* again....

Nope. You can't separate the resources and skill required to provide a first world standard of living from the lifestyle that entails.

"Off the grid" is whining fuckwit for "without society and it's resources". Without which you get fuck all.

Welcome to the stone age, fuckwit.

[mashman]

Nope. You can't separate the resources and skill required to provide a first world standard of living from the lifestyle that entails.

"Off the grid" is whining fuckwit for "without society and it's resources". Without which you get fuck all.

Welcome to the stone age, fuckwit.

Well, as my vote is worth just as much as your vote, I say he can go off grid if he likes and still have access to the essential services that come with healthcare and education.

[Ocean1]

Well, as my vote is worth just as much as your vote, I say he can go off grid if he likes and still have access to the essential services that come with healthcare and education.

In which case you won't mind paying for them on his behalf.

Only, I'm all tapped out from having to pay for every other bastard loser on the dole...

[Katman]

Only, I'm all tapped out from having to pay for every other bastard loser on the dole...

You're an adorable benefactor.

[blue rider]

letters to the editors

some people write them.

some are really good at it :)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trade-agreement-might-be-a-no-go-in-new-zealand/2015/02/08/2500c372-ae24-11e4-8876-460b1144cbc1_story.html


Successive leaked texts show that the proposed intellectual property rules would have severe effects, including an extension of data exclusivity for biopharmaceuticals beyond the current five years. Adoption of the so-called transparency annex would also give the industry more influence over the process by which Pharmac makes its decisions and subject those decisions to costly and time-consuming reviews.

[Brian d marge]

Nope. You can't separate the resources and skill required to provide a first world standard of living from the lifestyle that entails.

"Off the grid" is whining fuckwit for "without society and it's resources". Without which you get fuck all.

Welcome to the stone age, fuckwit.
7000 year , under the stone age , earth and everyone basically ok

150 under the modern age and I cant swim in many rivers I cant drink the water , I cant eat the food without getting sick

America has/had for at least 5000 years some very intelligent people , they did not piss and crap in their own back garden , now we have Garbage living there

Now who is the fuckwit

Scared white van man

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

letters to the editors

some people write them.

some are really good at it :)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trade-agreement-might-be-a-no-go-in-new-zealand/2015/02/08/2500c372-ae24-11e4-8876-460b1144cbc1_story.html

Good old Jane , she has been banging away at this for years...

Stephen

[Ocean1]

7000 year , under the stone age , earth and everyone basically ok

:laugh: Oh fuck off, dreamer.

[mashman]

In which case you won't mind paying for them on his behalf.

Only, I'm all tapped out from having to pay for every other bastard loser on the dole...

Why should I when society already does that :weird:

Bummer. And to think, you'll never see a truly user pays society.

[Brian d marge]

:laugh: Oh fuck off, dreamer.

Translated;

yup..... but i dont know how to change

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

meanwhile ....back in modern day England;

The bourgeoisie have made further progress in the art of hiding the distress of the working-class. But that, in regard to their dwellings, no substantial improvement has taken place, is amply proved by the Report of the Royal Commission “on the Housing of the Poor,” 1885. And this is the case, too, in other respects. Police regulations have been plentiful as blackberries; but they can only hedge in the distress of the workers, they cannot remove it

TX1138

[oldrider]

letters to the editors

some people write them.

some are really good at it :)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trade-agreement-might-be-a-no-go-in-new-zealand/2015/02/08/2500c372-ae24-11e4-8876-460b1144cbc1_story.html

TPPA will bring in FDA into NZ and that is the worst aspect of the whole "agreement" IMHO - the FDA are a bunch of self interested crooks!

The TPPA has too many one way fish hooks that favour America - John Key's special friends!

[yokel]

interesting talk from Barry Smith.

http://youtu.be/JSi__wuFDTw?t=25m

[Brian d marge]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9BqeOub7wKw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


might help broaden some horizons

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

Might go down to the beach today and have a walk....

oh wait I cant ....private access only ....bum

Stephen

[ellipsis]

...I need some more sovereigns...right's always turn to wrong's down the track a bit...shit has been a constant through the whole span of sentient life, um?...shitting on the planet...

[Ocean1]

Might go down to the beach today and have a walk....

oh wait I cant ....private access only ....bum

Stephen

You mean Maori access only.

[Brian d marge]

You mean Maori access only.
and russian

[awayatc]

and russian

Rublish....

[blue rider]

Regarding this global network of surveillance stations, the Sunday Star-Times reports:

Altogether, these bases can snoop on the entire world, friend as well as foe.

The leaked documents do not talk about "Waihopai". They use the station's secret Five Eyes code name Ironsand ("IS"). It's not clear why Waihopai is Ironsand.

An NSA map shows it is one of a global network of oddly-named satellite interception stations. These stations are the eyes of the Five Eyes alliance.

Australia has a base near Geraldton, a small port city on the west coast of Australia. Its codename is Stellar.

The British station in Oman has the codename Snick. Britain's Kenya base is known as Scapel. Britain also spies on satellites from Carboy, a station in Cornwall, and from a base in Cyprus called Sounder.

The American equivalents of Waihopai are Jackknife in Washington State on the Pacific coast, Timberline in West Virginia and Coraline in Puerto Rico in the Caribbean. The biggest of these is the Moonpenny base in Harrogate, Yorkshire.

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/03/07/nsa-global-spy-stations-revealed-sniff-it-all-collect-it-all-know-it-all-process-it



New Zealand’s prime minister John Key insisted that the revelations were wrong, but then refused to explain why, telling a press conference he had “no intention of telling you about how we do things.” Meanwhile, GCSB chief Sir Bruce Ferguson admitted that “mass collection” of data was indeed being undertaken in the Pacific, and said it was “mission impossible” to eliminate New Zealanders’ communications from the data being swept up.


rights? you have no stinking rights.
Gutless comes to mind. Middle NZ is gutless.

[Brian d marge]

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/03/07/nsa-global-spy-stations-revealed-sniff-it-all-collect-it-all-know-it-all-process-it





rights? you have no stinking rights.
Gutless comes to mind. Middle NZ is gutless.

Heres the reason why NZers dont give a fk....


http://markmanson.net/not-giving-a-fuck#fu25aq:Dgmf


Stephen

[Brian d marge]

Bye bye Health care , its been nice knowing you

Snip

The KiwiSaver-style approach to boosting the number of people with private health insurance could take pressure off the state health system, according to a report to be published today.
The report by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research (NZIER) canvases the policy options that politicians have at their disposal to encourage people to buy their own private health insurance.
One option would be to mimic an aspect of KiwiSaver and auto-enrol people in a health insurance plan when they start a new job. The report was paid for by the Health Funds Association, the lobby group for health insurers such as Southern Cross, nib, and Sovereign.

[blue rider]

stuff on the internets

https://wikileaks.org/tpp-investment/press.html


Current TPP negotiation member states are the United States, Japan, Mexico, Canada, Australia, Malaysia, Chile, Singapore, Peru, Vietnam, New Zealand and Brunei. The TPP is the largest economic treaty in history, including countries that represent more than 40 per cent of the world´s GDP.

The Investment Chapter highlights the intent of the TPP negotiating parties, led by the United States, to increase the power of global corporations by creating a supra-national court, or tribunal, where foreign firms can "sue" states and obtain taxpayer compensation for "expected future profits". These investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS) tribunals are designed to overrule the national court systems. ISDS tribunals introduce a mechanism by which multinational corporations can force governments to pay compensation if the tribunal states that a country's laws or policies affect the company's claimed future profits. In return, states hope that multinationals will invest more. Similar mechanisms have already been used. For example, US tobacco company Phillip Morris used one such tribunal to sue Australia (June 2011 – ongoing) for mandating plain packaging of tobacco products on public health grounds; and by the oil giant Chevron against Ecuador in an attempt to evade a multi-billion-dollar compensation ruling for polluting the environment. The threat of future lawsuits chilled environmental and other legislation in Canada after it was sued by pesticide companies in 2008/9. ISDS tribunals are often held in secret, have no appeal mechanism, do not subordinate themselves to human rights laws or the public interest, and have few means by which other affected parties can make representations.

also in plain english here :)

http://www.itsourfuture.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/QA-on-NZ-Korea-FTA.pdf

[mashman]

Have some synchronicity :wari:

Oh what an interesting history we have when it comes to sovereignty :yes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNkvWvv-Dew

[SPman]

Wikileaks has leaked (https://wikileaks.org/tpp-investment/press.html) the latest draft (https://wikileaks.org/tpp-investment/WikiLeaks-TPP-Investment-Chapter/page-1.html) of the investment chapter of the US-backed TPPA, revealing that National has sold us out and is signing us up to an investor-state dispute clause which would allow foreign corporations to sue New Zealand for compensation if they are denied resource consent or are forbidden to do anything by New Zealand law (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1503/S00313/new-tppa-investment-leak-confirms-nz-surrender-to-us.htm):


‘As anticipated, the deal gives foreign investors from the TPPA countries special rights, and the power to sue the government in private offshore tribunals for massive damages if new laws, or even court decisions, significantly affected their bottom line’.

‘Prime Minister John Key once described the idea of investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS) as “far-fetched”.’

‘After he was briefed about the TPPA he changed tack, promising there would be effective safeguards. But the leaked text shows very little has not been agreed. That means the New Zealand government has accepted virtually everything the US has proposed with absolutely no effective safeguards.’

And just to give an example of what's at stake:

‘Just last week, as protestors rallied against an extension of the port into the Auckland harbour, an investment tribunal upheld a case against Canada because an environment review panel refused to grant a US firm a permit for a quarry and marine terminal, saying it violated community values and there was inadequate consultation. The investor wants $300 million compensation. The local council is likely to be made to pay the bill.’

So, if National signs this, the RMA will effectively no longer apply to foreign corporations (but will still apply in full to New Zealand ones). Which seems to be the very opposite of the "level playing field" they say its about. Such fun..........

[flyingcrocodile46]

The video spells it out in plain english and comes from those who have access to the TPPA negotiations.
The New World Order is a big threat to sovereign states, speakers at an international conference say.

The anti-war initiative, Perdana Global Peace Foundation, has a single goal of putting an end to war.

Founded by Malaysia’s former Prime Minister Dr Mahathir Mohamad, the Foundation encourages dialogues between different nations, people and organisations to foster and energise global peace.

Its sister foundation, the Kuala Lumpur Foundation to Criminalise War aims to undertake all necessary measures to criminalise war and energise peace. It also found former US President George Bush and former British Prime Minister Tony Blair, among others, guilty of war crimes.

The recent activity by the Perdana Global Peace Foundation was a one-day international conference titled the New World Order, Recipe for War or Peace.

The keynote address was delivered by Dr Mahathir who warned that Malaysia might lose its independence if the government falls prey to the ploys of the US to increase its global hegemony through economic means.

Dr. Mahathir pointed out that the Transpacific Partnership or TPPA is a New World Order strategy by a powerful pact of people led by the US to dominate the world economy.

https://youtu.be/ZFH10lenuNM
Interesting that Dr Thomas Barnett (championing the benefits of the agreement) was quick to point out that America was the country that was losing more of the damages claims made under the treaty than any other countries (as if to say 'the US has more to lose than other sovereign states'). Completely ignored the fact that the corporations are winning nearly all of them and that it is the tax payer who is paying the cost. Not the politicians or their corporate owners.

[Ocean1]

'Cause, y'know, there's always another, (non-socialist) side: http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/free-trade's-benefits.aspx

"The trade barriers in the Atlantic cost consumers on both sides. Mr Shapps pointed out last week that every American pair of jeans costs you 12 per cent more than it should; every British pint of beer costs Americans 157 per cent more than it should. Americans are forbidden by law from buying British lamb or venison. TTIP is set to tackle some of these absurdities, to reduce non-tariff barriers, harmonise standards and give people more freedom to buy from whomever they choose.

TTIP’s opponents are particularly horrified that it includes a provision to let large and small businesses sue foreign governments for shutting them out of investment in their countries. My worry is that this provision may not go far enough — to enable consumers to have redress against governments."

And it's true that NZ is one of the most open markets, and therefore stands to benefit, (potentially enormously) from any reduction in protectionist policy amongst our trading partners.

It may even mean that I can buy an American computer at the price an American would, (less than half what I currently pay). And if I have the right to take uncle sam to court in order for that to happen then wouldn't that be fucking wonderful.

[Scuba_Steve]

It may even mean that I can buy an American computer at the price an American would, (less than half what I currently pay). And if I have the right to take uncle sam to court in order for that to happen then wouldn't that be fucking wonderful.

Good luck with that... Fuck when was the last time you brought a computer, 1996???
For me I'd rather keep the 4$ paracetamol than save 20$ on a PC

[Ocean1]

Good luck with that... Fuck when was the last time you brought a computer, 1996???
For me I'd rather keep the 4$ paracetamol than save 20$ on a PC

Bought some last year. Cost me over a grand each more than the US price.

Not sure what the effect would be on Pharmac's buying schedule. It's a possible negative, but it's not likely to be all bad.

[Scuba_Steve]

Bought some last year. Cost me over a grand each more than the US price.

Not sure what the effect would be on Farmac's buying schedule. It's a possible negative, but it's not likely to be all bad.

I can't speak for server grade systems but at the level I'm buying I'd struggle to save anything near significant enough to even bother going US 8/10 times
The rise from 4$ paracetamol to 40$ paracetamol will affect me however

[bogan]

I can't speak for server grade systems but at the level I'm buying I'd struggle to save anything near significant enough to even bother going US 8/10 times
The rise from 4$ paracetamol to 40$ paracetamol will affect me however

You are quesitoning Ocean1's prices, so lets question yours. Why would paracetemol increase to 10x the price when the current prices are pretty much the same?

I'd save shitloads buying PC parts from US companies if not for the shipping and import fees.

[Ocean1]

I can't speak for server grade systems but at the level I'm buying I'd struggle to save anything near significant enough to even bother going US 8/10 times
The rise from 4$ paracetamol to 40$ paracetamol will affect me however

It's actually got worse...

:http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/precision-t5810-workstation/pd

http://www.dell.com/nz/business/p/precision-t5810-workstation/pd

Oh, and I suspect your paracetamol might become cheaper under any free trade agreement worthy of the name.

[pete376403]

Generic drugs probably wont move much in price, given that they are off patent and made in India anyway. Its the super specialist stuff that Pharmac is able to negotiate better prices for. The big pharmaceutical companies hate that and want to be able to make Pharmac pay full price or bypass Pharmac altogther by being able to sue the NZ government for lost profits.

[Scuba_Steve]

You are quesitoning Ocean1's prices, so lets question yours. Why would paracetemol increase to 10x the price when the current prices are pretty much the same?

I'd save shitloads buying PC parts from US companies if not for the shipping and import fees.

yea ok paracetamol was probably a bad choice, tho USA's equivalent to panadol is more expensive so I wouldn't rule out an increase to more likely 1.5-2x not 10x
Import fees? You mean GST, something you'd still have to pay with FTA... there aint no duties on PC parts


It's actually got worse...

:http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/precision-t5810-workstation/pd

http://www.dell.com/nz/business/p/precision-t5810-workstation/pd

Oh, and I suspect your paracetamol might become cheaper under any free trade agreement worthy of the name.

That's just absurd. maybee you should stop buying Dell till they sort their shit out, they're just price gauging for the sake of price gauging with that

Probably not, as mentioned above the US equivalent to Panadol is already more expensive... but there's fuckload of other drugs for the increase. And this isn't a free trade agreement worthy of the name

[Ocean1]

That's just absurd. maybee you should stop buying Dell till they sort their shit out, they're just price gauging for the sake of price gauging with that

Probably not, as mentioned above the US equivalent to Panadol is already more expensive... but there's fuckload of other drugs for the increase. And this isn't a free trade agreement worthy of the name

Why don't you go find US prices for some of the other US manufacturers? Or any US based consumer electronics manufacturer? Or just any US producer? They're all the same. Dell just stand out because their sales structure is more transparent. And it'll be a cold day in hell before any of them drop their preferential pricing structures. That, or a comprehensive free trade agreement requires them to.

So you have inside information on the agreement?

[bogan]

yea ok paracetamol was probably a bad choice, tho USA's equivalent to panadol is more expensive so I wouldn't rule out an increase to more likely 1.5-2x not 10x
Import fees? You mean GST, something you'd still have to pay with FTA... there aint no duties on PC parts

Panadol is dirt cheap anyway so does that really matter?

I mean the $60 customs excise, generally plus another 60 odd for shipping, and another 60 for GST. Take the ROG swift for example, 1543NZD here, 1029 nzd in US (780usd), plus gst to get $1183 total. Saving $360.

[Scuba_Steve]

So you have inside information on the agreement?

Sort of, it's accessible to anyone; Wikileaks keeps posting it to the public & sometimes even the mainstream propaganda machine will run snippets.

Also Apple's known for "price gauging right?"
Here's the US machine
http://store.apple.com/us/buy-mac/macbook-pro?product=MGXC2LL/A&step=config
Here's the NZ machine
http://store.apple.com/nz/buy-mac/macbook-pro?product=MGXC2X/A&step=config
After you take into account currency conversion & GST there's 106.64 NZD in it (at current time, exchange rate obviously fluctuates)... Dell's taking the piss

[Ocean1]

Sort of, it's accessible to anyone; Wikileaks keeps posting it to the public & sometimes even the mainstream propaganda machine will run snippets.

Also Apple's known for "price gauging right?"
Here's the US machine
http://store.apple.com/us/buy-mac/macbook-pro?product=MGXC2LL/A&step=config
Here's the NZ machine
http://store.apple.com/nz/buy-mac/macbook-pro?product=MGXC2X/A&step=config
After you take into account currency conversion & GST there's 106.64 NZD in it (at current time, exchange rate obviously fluctuates)... Dell's taking the piss

Wikileaks doesn't have an agenda?

And while apple may have a reputation for price gouging they're obviously a semi-equal-opportunity price gouger. Which makes them fairly rare, price comparisons overwhelmingly favour US markets, even for non-US product. Even for some exported NZ product ffs.

I get sick of subsidising fucking Americans, and free trade agreements are the standard tool to fix the problem. I'd prefer they had provision for individuals to pursue corporations for price gouging offences, but any freeing up of trade barriers is mostly a good move.

[Scuba_Steve]

Wikileaks doesn't have an agenda?

And while apple may have a reputation for price gouging they're obviously a semi-equal-opportunity price gouger. Which makes them fairly rare, price comparisons overwhelmingly favour US markets, even for non-US product. Even for some exported NZ product ffs.

I get sick of subsidising fucking Americans, and free trade agreements are the standard tool to fix the problem. I'd prefer they had provision for individuals to pursue corporations for price gouging offences, but any freeing up of trade barriers is mostly a good move.

Yea to expose the corruption.

I don't get how exactly you expect the FTA to help anyways given the products you mention already have free trade, there are no duties on computers & computer parts, FTA doesn't stop price gouging.
Also the FTA is drafted by the Americans so don't go expecting your subsidisation of them to stop, their not writing it to advantage other countries.
Maybee you should stop listening to Key & go read some of this TPPA for yourself, wikileaks has the sections published verbatim so you can read just what is planned it's sorta the total opposite of what Key says it is

[Ocean1]

Yea to expose the corruption.

I don't get how exactly you expect the FTA to help anyways given the products you mention already have free trade, there are no duties on computers & computer parts, FTA doesn't stop price gouging.
Also the FTA is drafted by the Americans so don't go expecting your subsidisation of them to stop, their not writing it to advantage other countries.
Maybee you should stop listening to Key & go read some of this TPPA for yourself, wikileaks has the sections published verbatim so you can read just what is planned it's sorta the total opposite of what Key says it is

In which case they're hardly likely to publish anything else, are they?

And I don't expect it to help much, I just get sick and tired of all the wailing from the left about the evels of free trade. It sorta highlights the desperate need to legislate against anyone engaged in anything they don't have a finger in. Hypocrites.

[flyingcrocodile46]

It seems we are all missing the point here.

It isn't countries who are/have written the bulk of the agreement provisions and it ain't one country over another that will profit from it.

It's the corporations who have written most of it and they are the ones who stand to profit most from it. Particularly the law suits (damages claims against sovereign laws that prejudice the corporate ability to extract profits, and who we the tax payers will pay the price for) that will come by the hundreds once everyone is locked in.

You have to stop thinking in terms of national benefits, that ain't what it's about. The touted benefits are the glitter that covers the turd that is the TPPA. You are idiots if you think any of us tax slaves will benefit from this for more than the settling period. This is about trade and those who profit most directly from it. At best we will get the scraps needed to keep us living the illusion of parity.

Trade agreements like this are what has stripped the US of 90% of it's manufacturing industries in the last 20 or so years. Most big corporations have relocated the manufacturing to other countries, while retaining full access to the US market. The smaller manufacturers who remained loyal to their employees and the US economy have subsequently become non competitive and driven out of business. Millions of jobs lost for what? Corporate profits. Corporations care not for national boundaries or national pride. This is how corporations thrive.

[Scuba_Steve]

In which case they're hardly likely to publish anything else, are they?

And I don't expect it to help much, I just get sick and tired of all the wailing from the left about the evels of free trade. It sorta highlights the desperate need to legislate against anyone engaged in anything they don't have a finger in. Hypocrites.

If this was really about free trade it'd be very simple; All countries drop import duties & be done with it, it's that simple. This isn't about free trade, this is the loss of individual country rights.

[bogan]

It seems we are all missing the point here.

Only because that point has no basis in fact.


If this was really about free trade it'd be very simple; All countries drop import duties & be done with it, it's that simple. This isn't about free trade, this is the loss of individual country rights.

That sort of free trade could be damaging to local industry if the appropriate checks are not put in place; like patents, if you have a NZ patent that doesn't cover you in US, NZ'rs could just freely import copycat products from US, killing the market for the NZ'r innovation (who obviously has to charge more to recoup r&d costs).

[flyingcrocodile46]

Only because that point has no basis in fact.

If you squeeze your eyes shut real tight that might be a true statement. To those with eyes that see, it is simply blind ignorance of an overwhelmingly obvious truth. It is verifiable in black and white through your own research. Which is the point of the thread that you don't get.

Seek the answers for yourselves rather than accepting what may only be miss understood half truths from someone such as I.


[/QUOTE]
That sort of free trade could be damaging to local industry if the appropriate checks are not put in place; like patents, if you have a NZ patent that doesn't cover you in US, NZ'rs could just freely import copycat products from US, killing the market for the NZ'r innovation (who obviously has to charge more to recoup r&d costs).[/QUOTE]

FFS That is the world we are already living in. You are so full of shit that it overflows everywhere you post. Patents and copy right are an entirely different issue to free trade. Stop muddying simple issues with your fucked up straw man logic.

Please note that this reply post is only for the benefit of those with functional brains, so they may see your fucktardary for what it is..

[bogan]

If you squeeze your eyes shut real tight that might be a true statement. To those with eyes that see, it is simply blind ignorance of an overwhelmingly obvious truth. It is verifiable in black and white through your own research. Which is the point of the thread that you don't get.

Seek the answers for yourselves rather than accepting what may only be miss understood half truths from someone such as I.

FFS you are so full of shit that it overflows everywhere you post. Patents and copy right are an entirely different issue to free trade. Stop muddying simple issues with your fucked up straw man logic.

Please note that this reply post is only for the benefit of those with functional brains, so they may see your fucktardary for what it is..

Govts are negotiating it, govts take input from all people, even those in corporations (which often make up a fair amount of the export economy); just because you don't like how they have weighed those inputs doesn't mean it is some puppet system.

I explained how they were related quite clearly, perhaps for the benefit of those with functional brains you could address that part, or were your eyes too shut to read it properly?

Also, learn to quote properly you shitter.

[Scuba_Steve]

That sort of free trade could be damaging to local industry if the appropriate checks are not put in place; like patents, if you have a NZ patent that doesn't cover you in US, NZ'rs could just freely import copycat products from US, killing the market for the NZ'r innovation (who obviously has to charge more to recoup r&d costs).

By all means maybee you could name an example of this?

[flyingcrocodile46]

Govts are negotiating it, govts take input from all people, even those in corporations (which often make up a fair amount of the export economy); just because you don't like how they have weighed those inputs doesn't mean it is some puppet system.

I explained how they were related quite clearly, perhaps for the benefit of those with functional brains you could address that part, or were your eyes too shut to read it properly?

Also, learn to quote properly you shitter.


BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA What a maroon I was. I guess I must have missed all those referendums........... along with the ACC levy referendum.:facepalm:

FFS do you not read anything before you spout your drivel. The meeting agenda is kept secret and the meetings are held in secret so that the citizens of the countries involved (who are doubtless smarter than their politicians) are kept uninformed so that they know not what to say and can't have a say before its's a done deal. Pull your head out of your arse.

Your explanation of the relationship is best likened to that of a clothes peg to a washing machine. Both used in the process of washing and drying clothes but they are not related at all, and will happily do their jobs independent of each other.

[Oscar]

BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA What a maroon I was. I guess I must have missed all those referendums........... along with the ACC levy referendum.:facepalm:

FFS do you not read anything before you spout your drivel. The meetings are held in secret so that the citizens of the countries involved (who are doubtless smarter than their politicians) can't have a say. Pull your head out of your arse.

Your explanation of the relationship is best likened to that of a clothes peg to a washing machine. Both used in the process of washing and drying clothes but they are not related at all.

Do you vote?

[bogan]

BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA What a maroon I was. I guess I must have missed all those referendums........... along with the ACC levy referendum.:facepalm:

FFS do you not read anything before you spout your drivel. The meeting agenda is kept secret and the meetings are held in secret so that the citizens of the countries involved (who are doubtless smarter than their politicians) are kept uninformed so that they know not what to say and can't have a say before its's a done deal. Pull your head out of your arse.

Your explanation of the relationship is best likened to that of a clothes peg to a washing machine. Both used in the process of washing and drying clothes but they are not related at all, and will happily do their jobs independent of each other.

It's a representative democracy, not having referendums doesn't equate to controlled by corporations.

But they are most effective when used together. Yes you could have a free trade agreement independent of bringing other things in line like patent laws, but it will not be the best decision for the economy. That is why the TPPA covers so many issues which are related when considering the economy.

[Ocean1]

It seems we are all missing the point here.

Well some of us are.

It's really pretty simple. Free trade = everyone NOT included in the sale/purchase activity gets to NOT punch the ticket on the way past. All manufacturers and all consumers of their product with half a brain see this as a fucking excellent idea.

This particular free trade agreement like every one of its predecessors likely contains individual provisions that favour one nation over another. And yes, the signatories are countries. Not corporations.

There may even be clauses in there that have fuck all to do with trade regulation, but in the end your government will sign it or not based on their assessment of its overall favourable terms to this nation.

Entities not in favour of free trade are invariably those that stand to lose their cut of the legal backhanders that are currently in place. That's unlikely to be the reason they publicly use, but stripped of the bullshit them's the facts. Fuckem.

[Ocean1]

If this was really about free trade it'd be very simple; All countries drop import duties & be done with it, it's that simple. This isn't about free trade, this is the loss of individual country rights.

Then why is it called a trade agreement?

And you're description of how really simple trade agreements are doesn't actually describe any historical trade agreements with any accuracy at all now, does it? In fact it's fair to say that in keeping with the massive number of interested parties involved they're probably the single most complicated negotiations ever undertaken, isn't it?

[Scuba_Steve]

Then why is it called a trade agreement?

And you're description of how really simple trade agreements are doesn't actually describe any historical trade agreements with any accuracy at all now, does it? In fact it's fair to say that in keeping with the massive number of interested parties involved they're probably the single most complicated negotiations ever undertaken, isn't it?

Cause than idiots think it is one, god that's like asking "if nazi prison camps weren't holiday camps then why did they call them that?" [Goodwin's law invoked!]
But also it's called the 'TransPacific Partnership Agreement' TPPA, it covers more than just trade, but apparently you only listen to what Key has to say in complete disregard for facts & truth

[blue rider]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/nafta-ruling-against-canada-sparks-fears-over-future-dispute-settlements/article23603613/


A NAFTA arbitration panel has ruled against Canada in a claim by a U.S. company that wanted to develop a quarry in Nova Scotia, although a dissenting member of the panel warned that the decision will be seen as a “remarkable step backwards” in environmental protection.

Bilcon proposed the expansion of a quarry near Digby on the shore of the Bay of Fundy in September, 2002, but the Nova Scotia and federal governments rejected it after a joint review panel recommended it not proceed. The family-owned company – which is registered in Delaware – will now seek $300-million in damages after the arbitration panel declared that it was denied a fair environmental hearing.

[Ocean1]

Cause than idiots think it is one, god that's like asking "if nazi prison camps weren't holiday camps then why did they call them that?" [Goodwin's law invoked!]
But also it's called the 'TransPacific Partnership Agreement' TPPA, it covers more than just trade, but apparently you only listen to what Key has to say in complete disregard for facts & truth

Ah, the hallmark of a true tinfoil addict: "It's not what they say it is, it's what I say it is".

And I think we already covered a hierarchy of authority didn't we? And decided that your word was well down the pecking order, no? And as I don't bother keeping up with what JK has to say I certainly don't have time for someone who uses spurious eponymous bullshit to cover their arse.

[puddytat]

Only because that point has no basis in fact.



That sort of free trade could be damaging to local industry if the appropriate checks are not put in place; like patents, if you have a NZ patent that doesn't cover you in US, NZ'rs could just freely import copycat products from US, killing the market for the NZ'r innovation (who obviously has to charge more to recoup r&d costs).

Well I 'spose in about 5 years time when the truth is revealed & fiction becomes fact, then it will probably be too late to do anything about it eh.

[bogan]

Well I 'spose in about 5 years time when the truth is revealed & fiction becomes fact, then it will probably be too late to do anything about it eh.

Only if they get it wrong. You guys do like your circular logic don't you.

[Brian d marge]

It seems we are all missing the point here.

It isn't countries who are/have written the bulk of the agreement provisions and it ain't one country over another that will profit from it.

It's the corporations who have written most of it and they are the ones who stand to profit most from it. Particularly the law suits (damages claims against sovereign laws that prejudice the corporate ability to extract profits, and who we the tax payers will pay the price for) that will come by the hundreds once everyone is locked in.

You have to stop thinking in terms of national benefits, that ain't what it's about. The touted benefits are the glitter that covers the turd that is the TPPA. You are idiots if you think any of us tax slaves will benefit from this for more than the settling period. This is about trade and those who profit most directly from it. At best we will get the scraps needed to keep us living the illusion of parity.

Trade agreements like this are what has stripped the US of 90% of it's manufacturing industries in the last 20 or so years. Most big corporations have relocated the manufacturing to other countries, while retaining full access to the US market. The smaller manufacturers who remained loyal to their employees and the US economy have subsequently become non competitive and driven out of business. Millions of jobs lost for what? Corporate profits. Corporations care not for national boundaries or national pride. This is how corporations thrive.
thanks for that . i was going to reply but you summed it up nicely

im still waiting for the cheap electricity they promised us the last time the idiots tried to sell us a good idea, ,

[puddytat]

Only if they get it wrong. You guys do like your circular logic don't you.

What comes 'round goes 'round....

[flyingcrocodile46]

Well some of us are.

It's really pretty simple. Free trade = everyone NOT included in the sale/purchase activity gets to NOT punch the ticket on the way past. All manufacturers and all consumers of their product with half a brain see this as a fucking excellent idea.

This particular free trade agreement like every one of its predecessors likely contains individual provisions that favour one nation over another. And yes, the signatories are countries. Not corporations.

There may even be clauses in there that have fuck all to do with trade regulation, but in the end your government will sign it or not based on their assessment of its overall favourable terms to this nation.

Entities not in favour of free trade are invariably those that stand to lose their cut of the legal backhanders that are currently in place. That's unlikely to be the reason they publicly use, but stripped of the bullshit them's the facts. Fuckem.

They have to be in order to circumvent the soveriegn laws (which help protect the little people from big predators) that interfere with corporate objectives (they only have one). Anyway, corporations are also some of the signatories,

If the TPPA was really good for the people of any of the participating countries (as opposed to good for the corporations and bad for the people) why aren’t the conditions of the agreement open to public scrutiny in any of the participating countries?...... That’s largely a rhetorical question by the way, as the answer is already well documented. (google is not your friend, but can enlighten you if you are interested). Aw! what the fuck. People who learned of some of the conditions during earlier 'open' negotiations, let their politicians know that they weren't happy with the proposed loss of protection afforded by sovereign laws that would be nullified under the agreements. The negotiations stalled then restarted (underground and in secret).

Just how much more obvious does it need to be?

The insinuation that our interests are safely in hand through proportional representation by politicians (may as well be car dealers) has to be a fucking joke right! Politicians are the fuckers who send young sheep to war (often based on lies). The pricks specialise in telling lies about themselves and each other to themselves, each other and us just to take attention away from the broken promises they told to get elected.

Our politicians have infinitely more in common with their shareholding buddies than any of the tax herd. Yeah! Sure you can trust them not to shaft us. History is full of tales about politicians who threw themselves on the sword for the good of the people.

The TPPA is ... An illicit plan formulated in secret by a group of highly placed persons involving duplicity and deceit to mislead, or defraud others of their legal rights in order to achieve personal advantage.

Coincidentally, that is a typical definition of a conspiracy theory. But ewe knew that, right!

[Brian d marge]

Then why is it called a trade agreement?

And you're description of how really simple trade agreements are doesn't actually describe any historical trade agreements with any accuracy at all now, does it? In fact it's fair to say that in keeping with the massive number of interested parties involved they're probably the single most complicated negotiations ever undertaken, isn't it?
Oh have I got a bargain for you
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current owner seeks to monerize assets due to current economic conditions
steady revenue streams from cameras on both lanes

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