Speed Speed Speed- has it now become "Target Fixation" [Archive]

Reckless

11th May 2015, 11:59

A post off a mates facebook as I cant put it any better

Terribly sad weekend for a lot of families. 10 deaths in road smashes. Just awful.
But to have Assistant Commissioner of road policing Dave Cliff say he believes lowering speed limits on some rural roads could reduce deaths.
...and....
"They are undivided, they are narrow. So to have us travelling at 100km/h is really well above the design specifications for the road,"

...is simply more of the same failed speed message bullshit.
At least 5 of those deaths were on SH2 or 3, which are not narrow rural roads. And just how many roads does NZ have (apart from motorways) that are 'divided'.

News Items
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11446350

http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/201753822

IMHO Their focus on speed has become what us bikers call "Target Fixation"! We all know when you get that and become unaware of other factors you get more pain and crashes NOT less?

They are talking 70-80k on rural roads
Lane markers required on rural roads
Demerits on Speed camera offences
Last night they said they wanted to remove power poles, trees and culverts (quote off another friend)

People aren't even sticking to 90k on the safer speed zones Bombay to the Thames turn off, if you do 90k everyone is up every else's arse making the trip more dangerous than at 100k.
The laws an ass, no one will do 70K on our secondary roads, its a fucking joke.
Every road user will become criminals and imho it will cause more crashes with people taking risks passing or simply falling asleep to their Mp3 music.
But they will still blame it all on SPEED. Until we get down to 50k everywhere and people will still be crashing.

Has Dave Cliff and the NZ police force lost the plot??

ellipsis

11th May 2015, 12:06

\
Has Dave Cliff and the NZ police force lost the plot??

...they have probably found a few and smoked it all...

Scuba_Steve

11th May 2015, 12:56

Until we get down to 50k everywhere and people will still be crashing.

Sounds like Grays Rd in Porirua; currently 60km/h, used to be 100km/h for the longest of times then 80km/h but now 60km/h & it hasn't stopped the crashes just increased the "speeders" & thus $$$ as even the slowest cunts on the road now "speed" on this section... course even at 60km/h very few of the accidents involve "speeding"

Tazz

11th May 2015, 12:59

TheDemonLord

11th May 2015, 14:51

Increase speed, Decrease fuckwits who can't drive.

Problem solved

Swoop

11th May 2015, 15:23

I had thought about starting a thread about this fuckwit, but didn't.

Has Dave Cliff and the NZ police force lost the plot??

The head pig is a mental midget. What fuckwit would even consider coming out with a retarded statement like that?
It shows the complete lack of comprehension of the problem, once again, but illustrates the brain-locked institutionalization these public servants live in.

SPEED DOES NOT KILL. POOR DRIVING KILLS.

NZ drivers are given enough information to pass a test and get a licence. "Road craft" is not even appearing on the radar screen - why? Because of the mentality that it might "get the driver into trouble". It would provide skills to AVOID getting into trouble on the road, in the first place, and it provides skills to GET THE FUCK OUT OF TROUBLE as well.

Someone, please treat the police as a corporation, declare bankruptcy, and WIND IT UP.

Blackbird

11th May 2015, 15:29

NZ drivers are given enough information to pass a test and get a licence. "Road craft" is not even appearing on the radar screen - why? Because of the mentality that it might "get the driver into trouble". It would provide skills to AVOID getting into trouble on the road, in the first place, and it provides skills to GET THE FUCK OUT OF TROUBLE as well.

Careful...... we'll have cassina back for another 47 pages :laugh:

Gadget1

11th May 2015, 15:39

It's just easy to pin it all on speed and the sudden stop from it, never mind the other factors.

I know fatigue is a big problem, yet what happened to all those 'driver reviver' funded places.

They will never cut out deaths completely, but it is easy policing to zone in and focus on as something to constantly 'improve'.

It's interesting about the fatigue issue because John Key reckons lowering the speed limit isn't the answer: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11446562

He maintains it's fatigue, plus alcohol and speed.

oldrider

11th May 2015, 15:42

I had thought about starting a thread about this fuckwit, but didn't.

The head pig is a mental midget. What fuckwit would even consider coming out with a retarded statement like that?
It shows the complete lack of comprehension of the problem, once again, but illustrates the brain-locked institutionalization these public servants live in.

SPEED DOES NOT KILL. POOR DRIVING KILLS.

NZ drivers are given enough information to pass a test and get a licence. "Road craft" is not even appearing on the radar screen - why? Because of the mentality that it might "get the driver into trouble". It would provide skills to AVOID getting into trouble on the road, in the first place, and it provides skills to GET THE FUCK OUT OF TROUBLE as well.

Someone, please treat the police as a corporation, declare bankruptcy, and WIND IT UP.

Punish all the drivers who get it right - that should take care of those who fuck up! - Works in schools - doesn't it? :whistle:

Reckless

11th May 2015, 15:46

caspernz

11th May 2015, 15:49

It's interesting about the fatigue issue because John Key reckons lowering the speed limit isn't the answer: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11446562

He maintains it's fatigue, plus alcohol and speed.

Mmmm, I'd say lack of natural ability behind the wheel, combined with insufficient training prior to getting the licence, allowing distractions to reduce focus on operating the vehicle, would all rate higher on the "why drivers crash" list than fatigue, alcohol and speed. Only the speed thingee is easily measured on a large scale though, would certainly explain some of the obsession with the "4 clicks over and you're a friggin' criminal" mentality.

Judging by the things I see daily, it's just as well I don't have a truck mounted machine gun, for I'd rob Darwin of a lot of opportunities to cleanse the gene pool. Maybe it's just the joy of residing in D'Orkland once again haha...

Tazz

11th May 2015, 16:34

Mmmm, I'd say lack of natural ability behind the wheel, combined with insufficient training prior to getting the licence, allowing distractions to reduce focus on operating the vehicle, would all rate higher on the "why drivers crash" list than fatigue, alcohol and speed. Only the speed thingee is easily measured on a large scale though, would certainly explain some of the obsession with the "4 clicks over and you're a friggin' criminal" mentality.

Judging by the things I see daily, it's just as well I don't have a truck mounted machine gun, for I'd rob Darwin of a lot of opportunities to cleanse the gene pool. Maybe it's just the joy of residing in D'Orkland once again haha...

I'd disagree. Not managing fatigue comes under insufficient training/lack of skill, so to me it's the same thing.
Was the distraction caused by fatigue and letting you're mind wander when you usually wouldn't have given such a thing a thought? Can't really quantify that sort of shit so they just say 'you were speeding, speed was the cause'.

For some reason in my mind I've always likened it to watching the combination of factors when you're outdoors (wind, moisture, and temp) which you don't really want to have a combination of two of for very long (like driving tired at night while the heater is cranked and you're listening to some acid jazz, bad combination :laugh: where as the same tiredness and quietly munching away on something during the day might not even register until you relax at your destination and the fatigue kicks in.)

On a bike the outdoors factors even come into it. How many bike riders have dropped the hammer and fawked up a corner because they were actually succumbing hypothermia and their decision making functions were on the way out the window? Statistically they are just another speeding motorist because they can gather from the scene that they were going to fast, but not what condition they were in.
That's just my own take on it all anyway, the fuzz I'm sure are happy with the simplifying 'for the good of the people' somehow, well clearly they are :laugh:.

mada

11th May 2015, 16:34

Maybe speed is the factor involved when Police Officers cause crashes?

Police have been ordered to pay tens of thousands of dollars to a truck driver they blamed for a crash caused by an off-duty cop.

And the force has launched an investigation into police action after a judge said there was a perception the prosecution was "tarnished with bias". Judge Gerard Winter dismissed charges of careless driving against Graham Hohepa Anderson, saying the police "acted negligently" in prosecuting him.

The charges stemmed from a crash in October 2013. Anderson was carrying material in his truck to and from a construction site in Sandstone Rd, Whitford.

Court documents obtained by the Herald on Sunday show off-duty police officer Mark Hansen was "tailgating" two cars behind Anderson's truck.

Judge Winter said in his judgment Hansen "zoomed" past them accelerating to "110km/h if not slightly faster".

Hansen, who was in an "impatient mood", crossed the centre yellow line to pass the truck then clipped it as he tried to veer back on to the left side of the road, Judge Winter ruled.

Sergeant Mile Tusevljak investigated the accident and served as an expert witness for the prosecution. But he was accused by the judge of "particularly poor and unreasonable conduct".

The judge found Tusevljak:

• Had not read or referenced any of Anderson's statements.

• Failed to take into account Hansen had tailgated and overtaken two other cars at speed while he had a clear view of the truck ahead of him.

• Had not prepared a scale plan of the accident scene and had made incorrect calculations.

• Had never heard of a Code of Conduct for Expert Witnesses where his obligation was to disclose any incomplete or inaccurate evidence.

In a judgment on costs released in March, Judge Winter said: "I find [Tusevljak] was negligent in preparing his reconstruction of the crash dynamic and thereby produced a completely flawed analysis of the accident's cause." He went on to say the fact the "victim" was an off-duty officer provided the "regrettable but available perception that the investigation and prosecution was tarnished with bias".

He stopped short of saying police unreasonably pursued the case out of sympathy for a colleague because "there is insufficient evidence for me to draw that logical inference".

He ordered police to pay 75 per cent of about $50,000 in legal expenses, but Anderson's legal team will try to recover all costs.

Anderson's lawyer, Frank Hogan, said it was an unusually large sum in costs to be awarded in a district court.

"I've been in practice for over 40 years and I've secured costs on a number of occasions.

"They're reasonably rare, but this is the highest I have secured in any case," he said.

Hogan described it as a horrendous crash caused by a policeman performing an overtaking manoeuvre in his private car.

He said that he tried to reason with the prosecution not to pursue the crash charges, but they had persisted.

"At the end of the day, fortunately, we have a very good police force who by and large act in a very independent capable, unbiased fashion, but on this occasion, for some reason or other, they took the eye off the ball and slipped up big time."

A police spokesman said a formal review of the crash investigation was being carried out at district and national level. Part of that investigation would include an employment investigation.

"Both officers are currently employed as police officers but as the investigation is under way it's not appropriate for us to comment further," the spokesman said.

Judge Winter also told Anderson his company, Tebo Services, should pursue a civil suit against police to recover any other costs lost due to the truck being impounded and loss of business. Anderson is in talks with his lawyer to decide whether to pursue compensation.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11446094

Reckless

11th May 2015, 16:49

Maybe speed is the factor involved when Police Officers cause crashes?

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11446094

Yeh I put that up on the "I am Innocent" (cause he was) thread 40k he got to cover his expenses.
At least Cliff didnt come out and say something stupid on that one :facepalm:

Different topic tho :)

Gadget1

11th May 2015, 17:32

c. Maybe it's just the joy of residing in D'Orkland once again haha...

Heh, it's not just D'Orkland. On my ride North today, I lost count of the idiotic things I saw.

11th May 2015, 19:17

How did that clown get in charge of Policing?

The only excessive speed is how fast he races to answer every bit of bad traffic news with "oh it's always speed, we need more speeding fines"

Like the opening post states these crashes happened on major highways, not tight country lanes, and to date none have been proven to be speed related. In fact the 2 deaths from Wanganui were a head on. Could have been doing 115, 105 or, 95? same tragic result. The 2 deaths on Chch's northern motorway. Two vehicles clip each other going the same direction on a near straight multilane motorway. No proof of speed, in fact one was a van and the other a 4x4 towing something so unlikely either was up to much speeding if they tried. Most probable cause, piss poor lane behaviour by one or both vehicles.

eldog

11th May 2015, 19:33

The 2 deaths on Chch's northern motorway. Two vehicles clip each other going the same direction on a near straight multilane motorway. No proof of speed, in fact one was a van and the other a 4x4 towing something so unlikely either was up to much speeding if they tried. Most probable cause, piss poor lane behaviour by one or both vehicles.

Did the towing vehicle have something go wrong?

I was in a car beside a ute towing a trailer with a car on it, the towbar broke off the trailer and it then dropped down, but was retained by the chain.

The driver was hard on the brakes and the thing snaked all about the place, finally he stopped, as did we.

He was OK and no damage, he was in a bit of shock. He had borrowed the trailer off a mate.

The cop who turned up was very good. No tickets etc just made sure everyone was ok etc.

He agreed with me, the guy should have slightly accelerated and got the trailer to straighten up then slowed down gently.

Showed me you would have thought the towball would have broken off

This was on a 4 way highway in busy traffic in the middle of akl.

eldog

11th May 2015, 19:37

I'd disagree. Not managing fatigue comes under insufficient training/lack of skill, so to me it's the same thing.
Was the distraction caused by fatigue and letting you're mind wander when you usually wouldn't have given such a thing a thought? Can't really quantify that sort of shit so they just say 'you were speeding, speed was the cause'.

For some reason in my mind I've always likened it to watching the combination of factors when you're outdoors (wind, moisture, and temp) which you don't really want to have a combination of two of for very long (like driving tired at night while the heater is cranked and you're listening to some acid jazz, bad combination :laugh: where as the same tiredness and quietly munching away on something during the day might not even register until you relax at your destination and the fatigue kicks in.)

On a bike the outdoors factors even come into it. How many bike riders have dropped the hammer and fawked up a corner because they were actually succumbing hypothermia and their decision making functions were on the way out the window? Statistically they are just another speeding motorist because they can gather from the scene that they were going to fast, but not what condition they were in.
That's just my own take on it all anyway, the fuzz I'm sure are happy with the simplifying 'for the good of the people' somehow, well clearly they are :laugh:.

I know that gentle feeling and getting too comfortable on a long day of driving, lack of fluids etc and fatigue will catch you up.
Had that happen several times. esp on long country roads and no one around
Now I know what to do before hand and I realise I am not bullet proof no more.
I still drive/ride those distances but with much more wisely than I did before.

11th May 2015, 20:04

Did the towing vehicle have something go wrong?

.

I wasn't there, I didn't see it.

But you reinforce my point Mr Plod wasn't there either. However, he jumped immediately to a solution that suits his personal bias opinion. I jumped to a conclusion too, what seems to me a likely cause but I admitted I'm guessing. He on the other hand has no right to 'guess'. He's the so called Traffic Police expert who has no right to try to impose draconian laws on ALL of us because he thinks his guesses are more worthy than actual research of the facts.

Bad drivers cause crashes. Speed is a variable to the extent of damage and speed raises the potential for a crash for sure. But a car can not crash on it's own. It needs a driver to operate it and steer it towards a crash.
Target bad drivers for a change and see what happens to the road toll.

scumdog

11th May 2015, 20:07

Target bad drivers for a change and see what happens to the road toll.

But just the ones that don't speed....<_<:whistle:

Smifffy

11th May 2015, 20:13

How did that clown get in charge of Policing?

He toed the party line and sucked the corporate cock. That's how anyone gets to the top of any organisation in this country these days.

eldog

11th May 2015, 20:17

Bad drivers cause crashes. Speed is a variable to the extent of damage and speed raises the potential for a crash for sure. But a car can not crash on it's own. It needs a driver to operate it and steer it towards a crash.

Ok I hate hearing the Police need more resources and we need to reduce speed etc.

But have you noticed that lately some reports actually state which car was at fault (if its a car)

A car can crash on its own, driver fatigue, car plunges off road.
Tyre blows out, has a very slow leak or axle breaks
Think what happens when a rider has a high side the bike generally carries on up the road and then looses input and falls over
If the road gives way or an animal is on the main road

Not all crashes are driver error or speed.
Speed just increases the amount of damage that can be caused and reduces the reaction time to something unforeseen

You cant plan for everything

Shit does happen to even the best drivers

Sure we should get Scumdog to target slow bad drivers - he would get more time at the donut shoppe

FJRider

11th May 2015, 20:23

... Sure we should get Scumdog to target slow bad drivers - he would get more time at the donut shoppe

First ... we need more donut shops in rural areas ... <_<

AllanB

11th May 2015, 20:26

Mike.Gayner

11th May 2015, 20:41

It was a horrid weekend.

But it did not require a knee-jerk statement blaming speed.

If no one dies next weekend will the same person be on TV proclaiming everyone was sticking to the speed limits? I think not.

Exactly. This weekend wasn't even a statistical anomaly - it was a statistical inevitability.

swarfie

11th May 2015, 20:53

The missus and have nearly been cleaned up a couple of times recently on the bike by inattentive cage drivers. Both times at roundabouts where drivers have done a SMIDSY and cut us off by drifting over to our lane on exit. Both times I anticipated their move and either slowed down or speeded up to avoid a collision. I generally lane split so if shit happens I'd have room to avoid an accident and so I'm not in their blind spot. Only in recent times (only the last two or three years) has the problem gotten really bad. Most accidents happen due to driver inattention or fatigue IMO. Recently we were down in the South Island riding down to Hamner from Lewis pass and I saw in the rear vision mirror a young female in a small hatchback that we had not long passed (because she was drifting all over the road and I wanted to get away from her for our own safety) drift off the side of the road into the gravel, loose it and come back onto the road on two wheels, just managed to gather it all up and managed to save it (Christ knows how!). Bet she was wide awake after that!
Just lately the chance to speed on a main road (I seldom ride there anyway) has been almost non existent due to everyone generally going a lot slower than the posted speed limit. How that D'Head chief cop can come up with his statements about removing culverts and trees and posts from the sides of our roads absolutely astounds me....where the hell do they breed these:tugger:?

sidecar bob

11th May 2015, 21:08

Recently we were down in the South Island riding down to Hamner from Lewis pass and I saw in the rear vision mirror a young female in a small hatchback that we had not long passed (because she was drifting all over the road and I wanted to get away from her for our own safety) drift off the side of the road into the gravel, loose it and come back onto the road on two wheels, just managed to gather it all up and managed to save it (Christ knows how!). Bet she was wide awake after that!

You may not be aware of this but a promising young lady called Jo got made to park her car by the cops in Auckland a few years back because she was so exhausted she was all over the motorway.
I think you know her. :facepalm:

swarfie

11th May 2015, 21:23

You may not be aware of this but a promising young lady called Jo got made to park her car by the cops in Auckland a few years back because she was so exhausted she was all over the motorway.
I think you know her. :facepalm:

Haha yeah I remember that. She wasn't all over the motorway actually (well not what she told me anyway). The bloody cop just saw her yawning and made her park it. You telling me you haven't :zzzz::yawn: while driving? Or swinging on a SidecarBob? :2thumbsup :killingme

caspernz

11th May 2015, 21:55

I'd disagree. Not managing fatigue comes under insufficient training/lack of skill, so to me it's the same thing.

Managing fatigue isn't a skill required to obtain a licence though. Maybe I'm just thinking of the disparity of what's required to obtain a licence in NZ vs what I had to go through to get one in my home country in Europe. The main distinction being that to hold a drivers' licence in Europe felt more like a privilege whereas in NZ it's seen as more of a right. But that also leads to a social education lecture which could last for a week...so I'll stop there.

11th May 2015, 22:52

But just the ones that don't speed....<_<:whistle:

Yes please!
Fair call SD. There is bad driving combined with speed. But never by motorcyclists by the way (yeah right).

Had a friend mention some boy racer they know got done once for driving a car at 200kph on Moorhouse Ave, Chch. Without question, stupidly wrong time and place to speed. Bad speed and bad driver.

My biggest fear when driving or riding now is being taken out by a driver using their mobile phone. Most common offence I see every day. So easy to spot them.

bgd

12th May 2015, 00:34

I recently drove from Chch to Auckland via Wanganui and Tauranga. Compared to what I put up with in Asia, Kiwis, on the whole, are good drivers.

RDJ

12th May 2015, 02:28

I recently drove from Chch to Auckland via Wanganui and Tauranga. Compared to what I put up with in Asia, Kiwis, on the whole, are good drivers.

Yes. And Africa... shudder.

trustme

12th May 2015, 07:50

I recently drove from Chch to Auckland via Wanganui and Tauranga. Compared to what I put up with in Asia, Kiwis, on the whole, are good drivers.

I recently drove AK to Invercargil & back . The standard of driving went down when I hit the SI. More drivers going well over the speed limit, passing on yellow lines, passing on double yellow lines, slow drivers who would not keep left. a fatal between a truck & car on a flat straight passing lane just north of Timaru, how the hell did that happen.
Also dare I say it less cops on the road, the bad driving I saw was not tourists ,I'm picking it was locals.

caspernz

12th May 2015, 08:02

I recently drove from Chch to Auckland via Wanganui and Tauranga. Compared to what I put up with in Asia, Kiwis, on the whole, are good drivers.

WTF? So using that approach we should count ourselves lucky we have a more humanitarian regime than say...Iran?

I recently drove AK to Invercargil & back . The standard of driving went down when I hit the SI. More drivers going well over the speed limit, passing on yellow lines, passing on double yellow lines, slow drivers who would not keep left. a fatal between a truck & car on a flat straight passing lane just north of Timaru, how the hell did that happen.
Also dare I say it less cops on the road, the bad driving I saw was not tourists ,I'm picking it was locals.

Yep, see it all the time. If each individual started to obey most road rules most of the time, imagine the improvement...

Swoop

12th May 2015, 09:45

But it did not require a knee-jerk statement blaming speed.
If no one dies next weekend will the same person be on TV proclaiming everyone was sticking to the speed limits? I think not.
I would certainly not rule it out, in fact I would go as far as saying "yes, the retarded wanker would say it".
Remember what the cunts came out with when there were no fatalities on a weekend that was shockingly bad weather over most of the country? Claiming it was their "4k over" propaganda that did the trick?

Maybe I'm just thinking of the disparity of what's required to obtain a licence in NZ vs what I had to go through to get one in my home country in Europe. The main distinction being that to hold a drivers' licence in Europe felt more like a privilege whereas in NZ it's seen as more of a right.
True story. This happened within the last two months.

A workmate has international students living with his family for short periods of time. A Korean one told him that he was going to go and get a NZ driving licence "as a souvenir" of his time here.
My mate says the chap then left the house.

TWO HOURS later he was back... WITH A NZ LICENCE.

The Korean chap stated that he had no intention of driving here as it was "too scary". Thank fuck for that!

Reckless

12th May 2015, 09:53

True story. This happened within the last two months.
A workmate has international students living with his family for short periods of time. A Korean one told him that he was going to go and get a NZ driving licence "as a souvenir" of his time here.
My mate says the chap then left the house.

TWO HOURS later he was back... WITH A NZ LICENCE.
The Korean chap stated that he had no intention of driving here as it was "too scary". Thank fuck for that!

Same and I've posted it before on here.
My missus has the occasional Japanese home-stay. Her home-stay went into get a NZ licence with what she called a "paper" Japanese licence.
She walked out with a full NZ licence. I don't know the system in Japan but we discovered a "paper" Japanese means she also had never driven a car before.

So there's this timid, shy Japanese girl standing there, who had never driven anything ever, issued with a FULL NZ Licence.
Thank goodness she didn't have the go forward to actually give it a go due to her nice nature, but how many others are out there from many different countries getting through with no driving experience????

Swoop

12th May 2015, 09:57

So there's this timid, shy Japanese girl standing there, who had never driven anything ever, issued with a FULL NZ Licence.
Well at least she won't get done for speeding...
As for sitting in the right hand lane, doing 45kph, she'll fit right in!:ar15:

trustme

12th May 2015, 10:08

10 people were killed in the weekend, can anyone tell me how many were asian ???

swbarnett

12th May 2015, 10:13

But just the ones that don't speed....<_<:whistle:
Why just those that don't speed? A bad driver is a bad driver no matter what speed they're travelling at. You seem to think that just because someone is driving above the posted speed limit they're a bad driver.

Tazz

12th May 2015, 10:27

Managing fatigue isn't a skill required to obtain a licence though. Maybe I'm just thinking of the disparity of what's required to obtain a licence in NZ vs what I had to go through to get one in my home country in Europe. The main distinction being that to hold a drivers' licence in Europe felt more like a privilege whereas in NZ it's seen as more of a right. But that also leads to a social education lecture which could last for a week...so I'll stop there.

Ahh yep, I'm with where you're coming from.
It's almost a common sense sort of thing but personally I think it wouldn't hurt to be something covered a bit better during the license process. Hypothermia and fatigue are mentioned in passing somewhere in the road code from memory but that's it.
Arguably much more important things to be conscious of than whether you're absolutely no more than 5k within the speed limit every second of your journey.

Reckless

12th May 2015, 11:14

10 people were killed in the weekend, can anyone tell me how many were asian ???

I cant speak for Swoop but I for one was not commenting on her RACE!!
The post was clearly aimed at our licence system.

The description of where she was from was to form a knowledge base for readers on the Japanese "paper" Licence scenario.
The description of her nature was a compliment to her, how else do you interpret the words "nice nature".
I have edited the last line to make it clearer so people like you with racist bias don't get confused :facepalm:

trustme

12th May 2015, 11:29

Is this the same licence system that when it started to get hard to pass had people snivelling because when their precious little Johnny or Doris was failing & had to sit it again , it was so unfair.
I ain't the racist here,

I'll add a bit, what's hard about a road rule like ' Stop at a red light '. ' Don't pass on a yellow line ','don't pass on a double yellow line '. Pretty simple concepts really , & yet we seem to struggle with even the basics. Will making a licence harder to get accomplish anything .

We already know what the rules are , we just choose to ignore them.

Swoop

12th May 2015, 12:48

I cant speak for Swoop but I for one was not commenting on her RACE!!
The post was clearly aimed at our licence system.
Yes, the pathetic EASE of obtaining an official document that entitles the holder to certain rights.

Or people can choose to drive without a licence - which is what the head pig is going to achieve, if his suggestion of having demerits added to speed cameras is implemented.

Voltaire

12th May 2015, 12:50

I'd say speed amplifies the effect of poor driving. Driving around with an instructor does not really prepare you for driving a car with 100 plus HP relying on 4 bits of rubber to maintain contact with the road.
They have a rego/insurance system in Ireland and maybe other countries based on engine size and driving experience...but hey you don't even need third party here.....and no Mr Key the rural roads are not really up to 100 kmph.

5ive

12th May 2015, 13:16

It's much easier for them to concentrate on speed because it is a clearly identifiable 'event' that can be seen and identified, and of course the higher the speed, the more damage/death can occur.

It is a lot harder to monitor, and police bad driving before an accident occurs, and prevent it from happening. So they're just going to slow everyone down and cross their fingers, hoping only for serious injuries instead.

There appears to be a complete lack of focus on drivers abilities or attributes, and it seems everything is being thrown at policing driver actions instead.

If they wanted to tackle the road toll, then they'd probably need to spend more time looking at things like the seriousness a driver applies to driving and being on the road, the length of their attention spans, level of intelligence, spatial awareness, motor-skills, confidence and experience behind the wheel (with or without traffic around them).

They wouldn't do any of that though, as they'd have to start revoking licences left and right, which would impact on people's 'rights', and we all know about 'rights' and it's correlation to 'personal responsibility'.

Gadget1

12th May 2015, 13:17

Yes, the pathetic EASE of obtaining an official document that entitles the holder to certain rights.

Or people can choose to drive without a licence - which is what the head pig is going to achieve, if his suggestion of having demerits added to speed cameras is implemented.

The gubbermint is covering their bases well by selling licences to "paper licence" holders etc plus gaining revenue from speeding fines. It's all money in the bank.

swbarnett

12th May 2015, 13:29

I'll add a bit, what's hard about a road rule like ... ,'don't pass on a double yellow line '.
The fact that there is no such thing as a double yellow line won't help. It is in fact two single yellow lines, one for each direction.

swbarnett

12th May 2015, 13:31

.....and no Mr Key the rural roads are not really up to 100 kmph.
I beg to differ. Some of them are dead straight for miles...

5ive

12th May 2015, 13:31

The fact that there is no such thing as a double yellow line won't help. It is in fact two single yellow lines, one for each direction.

Not sure if you're being serious, but the NZTA refer to them as "double yellow no passing lines" in all offical documentation.

swbarnett

12th May 2015, 13:35

Not sure if you're being serious, but the NZTA refer to them as "double yellow no passing lines" in all offical documentation.
I'm only repeating what the resident KB cops have said.

If there is such a thing as a "double yellow line" (as in "no passing lines") then what's the legal difference from a single line?

5ive

12th May 2015, 13:43

I don't think that the general road code specifically refers to double yellow lines, probably because it's condensed, but all of the other official documents do.

5ive

12th May 2015, 13:45

what's the legal difference from a single line?

There is no legal difference, they both exist. What do you call two single lines that you cannot pass on?

Reckless

12th May 2015, 13:45

If there is such a thing as a "double yellow line" (as in "no passing lines") then what's the legal difference from a single line?

The real truth is the gap between the yellow lines is ACTUALLY a motorcycle passing lane :msn-wink:

trustme

12th May 2015, 13:58

Clearly ' The Tribesmen ' believe that. Played leap frog with them from Picton to Cheviot. They would fly past me in groups on blind corners marked with ' double yellow lines '. They expected cars to just get out of their way, I kept wishing a Kenworth would come around the corner. Every town they would stop & I would drive past only to be overtaken again with more stupidity. Dickheads.

Voltaire

12th May 2015, 14:01

I beg to differ. Some of them are dead straight for miles...

Beg you back, lots are winding and twisting too :msn-wink:

Why is everyone is such a hurry.....

swbarnett

12th May 2015, 14:22

There is no legal difference, they both exist. What do you call two single lines that you cannot pass on?
As far as a single driver is concerned I call it a single yellow line. The other side also has a single yellow line. The important point being that only one of the lines applies to drivers on one side of the road.

swbarnett

12th May 2015, 14:23

The real truth is the gap between the yellow lines is ACTUALLY a motorcycle passing lane :msn-wink:
A pocket bike might just fit.

swbarnett

12th May 2015, 14:27

Beg you back, lots are winding and twisting too :msn-wink:
As usual the truth is a bit of both. I agree that some rural roads are not designed for 100kph.

Why is everyone is such a hurry.....
Wanting to do 100kph (on a suitable road) is not being in a hurry. Often it's barely enough to stop a driver falling asleep (and often it's not enough).

Reckless

12th May 2015, 14:34

Beg you back, lots are winding and twisting too :msn-wink:

Why is everyone is such a hurry.....

I get your point but whats a rural or secondary road??
I'd guess once they start dishing out new 70-80k speed limits it'll be every damn road thats not a 100k main arterial.
Especially when the crashes keep coming and they mark more and more down each year because its not working.

Sooo Dave Cliff will it work? (Actually he's right law of physics says less speed, less damage).
But it wont work because people
1- Simply wont go that slow
2- will be inattentive if they do?

Therefore Dave Cliff will put more and more speed cameras out, introduce demerits, Continuously Double yellow damn near every road, still blame it all on speed.
And crashes could go up (as they did last Xmas)?

He's a dick between the 101k thing and this, I have lost a lot of faith in the competency of the NZ police force.

5ive

12th May 2015, 14:37

As far as a single driver is concerned I call it a single yellow line. The other side also has a single yellow line. The important point being that only one of the lines applies to drivers on one side of the road.

Nevermind, I re-read his post again. Your post didn't contain his full quote, hence I thought you were denying the existence or naming convention of double painted lines on the road surface.

AllanB

12th May 2015, 15:45

5ive

12th May 2015, 15:51

That might be part of it, but I've seen older, more experienced drivers driving like crap in beat up old cars as well.

Swoop

12th May 2015, 15:59

What do you call two single lines that you cannot pass on?
Yellow centre lines mean "do not cross".
You can still overtake another vehicle, so long as you do not cross those yellow lines.

Rather challenging for a car, but on a bike...

caspernz

12th May 2015, 16:18

I'm just starting to teach my daughter how to drive - in Mrs B's manual Galant (my insurer would not cover a learner in my XR6).

Now I am having to explain the entire driving process what to be working what to be looking for etc etc it is complicated and the possibilities of it going tits up are very high.

I do wonder though - we I was learning in old clappers the car rattled, vibrated and roared so much that you were really quite in touch with what was mechanically happening - modern motoring is like sitting on a sofa in your living room.

Maybe, just maybe modern drivers are increasingly being fooled into a false sense of security.

For starters, good luck with the process. You holding onto your hair that is...

Must admit that when I learned to drive it was indeed in an older car, manual, no power steering and comfort wasn't part of the equation. Compared to a car today, the disparity is like Model T and sitting on a sofa like you mentioned.

So perhaps learning to drive should be in an older manual car that leaves one feeling "connected" with the outside world? Or just learn to ride a bike first...:laugh:

TheDemonLord

12th May 2015, 16:22

My first car that I learnt to Drive in was an old Honda Civic, with no power steering etc.

The first car I owned was a Mini Clubman....

Moi

12th May 2015, 16:38

Speed is the reason… Is it really? I doubt it, but will we find out? I doubt that too.

Over the weekend there were two serious crashes - one in the Marton area and the other near Tauranga. Both were reported in the media and comments were made by a senior police officer.

My question for him is: “Where’s your evidence?” I doubt that it is possible to have gathered enough evidence to draw a sound evidence-based conclusion within such a short time between the crashes and the said senior police officer appearing on television and in the print media with his statement.

This, some call it knee-jerk reaction, drawing conclusions with inadequate evidence and/or data is prevalent in many of the media and other persons who need to comment. Yes, report that there has been a crash, but leave it there. Do not speculate as to the causes. There are likely to be a number of factors which have contributed to the crash and to emphasise, for whatever reason, one over the others is unworthy of a senior police officer.

Let the serious crash unit do their job and present their findings to the coroner. Then the police need to publish a summary of those findings and of the coroner’s report and discuss in an unbiased manner the factors which probably lead to the crash. Following that, the police can then make recommendations which, based on the findings, are likely to lessen the chance of a similar crash occurring again.

As I said above, I doubt if this is likely to happen, as the media and the public have moved onto some newer and more interesting news item…

Put simply: report crash in an non-emotive manner; allow time for evidence/data to be gathered and collated and reported; report on that report and the coroner’s report with recommendations highlighted. Then informed decisions can take place which may well lead to improved road safety and driving skills.

Gadget1

12th May 2015, 16:52

Or just learn to ride a bike first...:laugh:

That makes me wonder about the time, before all the cheap imported cars arrived, when motorcycles were more common and the riders who then became car drivers.

trustme

12th May 2015, 17:54

Our accident statistics tend to suggest that we are as bad at riding bikes as we are at driving cars so starting off on bikes will simply cull the idiots out quicker.
Without going into detail I get the impression from the age of the victims that in general these accidents did not involve learner or inexperienced drivers . Will making the license harder to get make any difference to experienced drivers.
There is no simple answer , it's our mindset that has to change.

spanner spinner

12th May 2015, 19:06

In one of my jobs in Auckland I use to get the police bikes coming in for work. There boss use to come in as he would give them his car to keep working and bring the bikes in himself as he could sit in the corner of the workshop and do paperwork. I got talking to him one day as how do you stop NZ drivers from killing each other. His answer was that in a perfect word you train people to drive, compulsory driver training, retesting every ten years and if you are a numpty and can't drive well you don't get a licence. But the powers above him who write the rules are to scared to implement any of these. So there solution is to force people into safer vehicles, and this has been going on over the last few years look at the frontal impact rules and bring down the average speed by blitzing anyone going over the speed limit and reducing speed limits where there is a "black spot". As the police boss said this would not stop people crashing in to each other but when they did they would be going slower and be in safer cars so they should have a better survival rate. He was not real impressed with the tools he had been given to fix the road toll, and this doesn't bode real well for motorcycles as they had been tagged as high risk vehicles.

ellipsis

12th May 2015, 19:14

...it's all just physics and calculated luck out on the highroads and byroads...anything more is just words...

swbarnett

12th May 2015, 22:18

Nevermind, I re-read his post again. Your post didn't contain his full quote, hence I thought you were denying the existence or naming convention of double painted lines on the road surface.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I think it was Scumdog that pointed out a while back that the double-yellow lines are in fact, from a legal standpoint, two single lines and not a related pair. Hence the assertion that there's no such thing, legally, as a double yellow line. I didn't mean to imply that there were never two yellow lines running close together and parallel .

Scuba_Steve

12th May 2015, 22:24

Maybe, just maybe modern drivers are increasingly being fooled into a false sense of security.

I have noticed the disconnect in modern cars... it's kinda scary
Sound dampening to remove wind/road noise
Shock dampening to remove road feel
Drive-by-wire to remove any input sensation
"safety" pillars, airbags & intrusion bars that help to remove vision
Safety features to remove any feeling of fucking up
Cruise control & auto transmission to remove any conscious thought
But hey they have a pretty coloured dashboard to stare at... & according to Police that's all they need to be safe

swbarnett

12th May 2015, 22:35

this would not stop people crashing in to each other but when they did they would be going slower
This is like giving chefs nearly blunt knives and no means to sharpen them.

With this line of thinking, eventually we'll all be going so slow we may as well walk.

TheDemonLord

12th May 2015, 23:04

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJBMIUydWi0&list=PL330BAB19F6443EB7&index=3

This describes the NZ police atm....

Gremlin

12th May 2015, 23:38

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I think it was Scumdog that pointed out a while back that the double-yellow lines are in fact, from a legal standpoint, two single lines and not a related pair. Hence the assertion that there's no such thing, legally, as a double yellow line. I didn't mean to imply that there were never two yellow lines running close together and parallel .
I don't know if he did, but I know I did?

neels

12th May 2015, 23:41

Now I am having to explain the entire driving process what to be working what to be looking for etc etc it is complicated and the possibilities of it going tits up are very high.

I do wonder though - we I was learning in old clappers the car rattled, vibrated and roared so much that you were really quite in touch with what was mechanically happening - modern motoring is like sitting on a sofa in your living room.
I agree completely, you don't realise what a busy process driving is until you try and explain it to someone else.

All of my kids learning to drive has been in old shitters, including explaining what the various bits of the car are actually doing when you are operating it (if necessary, off to the garage to show them the bits in question), more feedback and more understanding of the mechanicals is better.

Some years ago my wife got told off for going too fast by a driving instructor, because before that she had been learning in a somewhat less than standard Ford Anglia, and had already started judging speed by engine noise. I must have trained her well, the lessons ended when they ventured out of town for the first time and she overtook a sheep truck......