How come?

[AllanB]

How come

Italian bikes and Japanese bikes have very different gearing?

Italian is typically very tall - 6th gear - click that bad boy in over 120 ....

Japanese at 120 - looking for gear 7 ....


Been this way for decades.

Why?


Side note. WTF is the point of a six speed Harley? Big fat torque beasts - fuckers only need 4 gears.

[mossy1200]

How come

Italian bikes and Japanese bikes have very different gearing?

Italian is typically very tall - 6th gear - click that bad boy in over 120 ....



Now what are you riding? Top gear on mine is fine at 100 unlike the superduke I tried.
What is a bit high is 1st gear though but not unlike some litre Japanese bikes I guess.
Mines got anti stall assist which lets you edge forward with no throttle applied. Handy in traffic.

What you need do is buy a MV Agusta and keep your Hornet for around town.

[J.A.W.]

How come

Italian bikes and Japanese bikes have very different gearing?

Why?


Side note. WTF is the point of a six speed Harley? Big fat torque beasts - fuckers only need 4 gears.



Like what? How many rpm at 120Km/h? Twin, triple or four? How many cc? Lotsa variables eh, mite..

H-D's have short rpm range, so they need all those ratios or else they run out of 'em..

[F5 Dave]

Measured somewhere useful like the rear wheel, Harleys have comparatively poor torque. An R6 hammers one. Or were you meaning something else?

[J.A.W.]

Measured somewhere useful like the rear wheel, Harleys have comparatively poor torque. An R6 hammers one. Or were you meaning something else?

Too funny.. 600/4 TQ is piss-weak.. they have to rev their bloody tits off to make it do some "useful" bloody work..

[Ender EnZed]

Mines got anti stall assist which lets you edge forward with no throttle applied. Handy in traffic.


Sounds like a clutch lever to me. How does the MV system work?

[R650R]

Sounds like a clutch lever to me. How does the MV system work?

Was going to say the same. Even on trucks the engine computer knows your taking off and wont let it stall unless your a rough goober.

[nodrog]

How come

Italian bikes and Japanese bikes have very different gearing?

Italian is typically very tall - 6th gear - click that bad boy in over 120 ....

Japanese at 120 - looking for gear 7 ....


Been this way for decades.

Why?


Side note. WTF is the point of a six speed Harley? Big fat torque beasts - fuckers only need 4 gears.

you mean the v twin ones aye?

[Ender EnZed]

you mean the v twin ones aye?

Was thinking that. VTRs and SVs are geared way too high.

[Gremlin]

Mines got anti stall assist which lets you edge forward with no throttle applied. Handy in traffic.
I just call that torque. I tested it, the CB919 can get into 6th with no throttle (just easy on the clutch, let it out, change gear, rinse and repeat)... you're doing about 30-40kph. :lol:

As for bike differences you've got to think geographically. Europeans design bikes in their thinking. There are few areas that gas isn't every 50-100km. Towns are close together for historic reasons, as it was horse and cart. Therefore, tanks don't need to be large, plus that extra fuel affects handling. Due to traffic, heat and very tight roads in some regions, it's rare to see anyone using large bikes for practical daily commuting. Scooters take up less space parking, and so bikes are weekend playthings.

Speed limits in Europe aren't as heavily enforced every where like here (some places they are) but therefore speeds can be comfortably higher, and having top gear for 120kph is also more fuel efficient. My KTM 990 was 130+ for 6th until I re-geared and re-tuned, then it was 120+.

Japs don't have a sense of humour. It's practical. Character is simply bad engineering and they can do better than that.

[skippa1]

Side note. WTF is the point of a six speed Harley? Big fat torque beasts - fuckers only need 4 gears.
Why does this worry you?

[mossy1200]

Sounds like a clutch lever to me. How does the MV system work?

It controls throttle slightly for you. Even on a hill start you can let clutch out slowly without touching throttle and it will self propel about the same speed as you would edge forward in traffic. Perhaps 1/3 walking pace.

[mossy1200]

Fuel range on mine seems about 190km before fuel light which has 6 litres left so 16 litres used approx.

[F5 Dave]

Too funny.. 600/4 TQ is piss-weak.. they have to rev their bloody tits off to make it do some "useful" bloody work..
I purposely chose an R6. I almost said an RZ350 has about the same.

Torque is the ability to rotate something. Gearing lends incredible mechanical advantage. But it is a widely misused term.

[Drew]

I purposely chose an R6. I almost said an RZ350 has about the same.

Torque is the ability to rotate something. Gearing lends incredible mechanical advantage. But it is a widely misused term.

Now you've bloody done it Dave! People struggle to get their heads around the accurate description of 'horse power', and you want to go muddling up what torque is. Torque is how much force is being exerted, rotationally or in a straight line makes no difference. It can't be measured in any way other than direct pull or push. So although in this application something is being turned, that doesn't mean rotation is integral to the force definition.

In a tug of war, the winner is decided by who applies the most force on the rope. Torque is a unit of measurement one could use to quantify it.

[caspernz]

How come

Italian bikes and Japanese bikes have very different gearing?

Italian is typically very tall - 6th gear - click that bad boy in over 120 ....

Japanese at 120 - looking for gear 7 ....


Been this way for decades.

Why?


You may just have to try a big Japanese bike :oi-grr: for this Busa rider doesn't share your views...:shit::innocent::shutup:

[mulletman]

Was thinking that. VTRs and SVs are geared way too high.

When i had my SV and changed chain/sprockets i went 2 up on the rear - much better altho speedo was about 10ish kph to high.

[Flip]

Given torque X angular speed = work done.
or ftlbs*rpm=HP

How a bike feels under throttle and how much horse power it produces at full revs are often misunderstood. HD's produce adequate torque at low motor speed so feel powerfull at slow speed. R6's produce great HP at high motor speed so go fast.

[Banditbandit]

How come

Italian bikes and Japanese bikes have very different gearing?

Italian is typically very tall - 6th gear - click that bad boy in over 120 ....

Japanese at 120 - looking for gear 7 ....


Been this way for decades.

Why?




Not true - my big Bandit comes on song in top gear at 120 klicks ... It will handle 100 klicks in top, but if I want to pass anything I drop it down two gears and open the throttle ... at 100 klicks in top it's a bit sluggish until it gets up in the rev range ... and I've been to 200 klicks in fourth gear - not even on the red line ... I don't need a seventh gear ...



You may just have to try a big Japanese bike :oi-grr: for this Busa rider doesn't share your views...:shit::innocent::shutup:

Me neither ...


Too funny.. 600/4 TQ is piss-weak.. they have to rev their bloody tits off to make it do some "useful" bloody work..

Umm err .. my 650 bandit (not a sports bike) hits peak horses at 9500 revs .. (sure, that's up there) and in top gear 9000revs is 180 klicks .. I rarely use peak HP in top .. in the lower gears it 's a missile .. I would not describe it as 'piss weak" ... sports IL4s are just awesome ...

[J.A.W.]

I purposely chose an R6. I almost said an RZ350 has about the same.

Hardly.. RZ 350 is long finished before 10,000rpm & R6 aint started doing anything much - at that point..

Ride a GSX-R 600 & 750 back-to-back, the seemingly piddling 150cc makes a big difference ( improvement) - to riding feel..

[Flip]

Hardly.. RZ 350 is long finished before 10,000rpm & R6 aint started doing anything much - at that point..

Ride a GSX-R 600 & 750 back-to-back, the seemingly piddling 150cc makes a big difference ( improvement) - to riding feel..

F5 knows all about sports bikes, RZ's ZXR's and things that go vroom.

[J.A.W.]

F5 knows all about sports bikes, RZ's ZXR's and things that go vroom.

So what.. why.. don't you?

[GrayWolf]

Now you've bloody done it Dave! People struggle to get their heads around the accurate description of 'horse power', and you want to go muddling up what torque is. Torque is how much force is being exerted, rotationally or in a straight line makes no difference. It can't be measured in any way other than direct pull or push. So although in this application something is being turned, that doesn't mean rotation is integral to the force definition.

In a tug of war, the winner is decided by who applies the most force on the rope. Torque is a unit of measurement one could use to quantify it.

This can all be cleared up in two 'formulae' Drew

1} Horse power, how fast you hit the wall, Torque, how far you drag the wall with you.

2) Hardly Rideitson's, the world's most efficient mechanicldevice for turning liquid hydrocarbon into noise, without the byproduct of horsepower.

YVW

[GrayWolf]

Measured somewhere useful like the rear wheel, Harleys have comparatively poor torque. An R6 hammers one. Or were you meaning something else?

Except the Hardly produces that torque 'low down' rat HD Vs 1000cc Blade

http://tinyurl.com/nzxcxhb

and there are many V twins that produce more torque low down than a sprotbike produces at 'full' song.
My MT produces over 160nm's, {150+ standard} never less than 120nm's low down, that was more than a 'busa' made untill they retuned the motor, in recent times.

[Banditbandit]

Except the Hardly produces that torque 'low down' rat HD Vs 1000cc Blade

http://tinyurl.com/nzxcxhb



Yeah .. but that should never have happened - the Blade rider is shit useless at launching his bike ... I laughed my arse off - three times in a row Hildo beats him ...

[Drew]

Yeah .. but that should never have happened - the Blade rider is shit useless at launching his bike ... I laughed my arse off - three times in a row Hildo beats him ...

Ever drag raced against a Harley? Clearly not.

I'm pretty handy off the line. Could get my 749r to keep pace with decent bikes racing in F2. Mother's day races, front row surrounded by wooly butt fuckin Harley hillbillies in jeans and steelcap boots, what place do you reckon I was coming into turn one?

They leave the line insanely fast, fuck all can keep up till ya hit 80 odd k's.

[J.A.W.]

Just need a decent clutch, & know how to launch..

& on an RZ 350 its too easy, dial 6G, feed the clutch, WFO - punch it out.. keep the front wheel hovering 'bout 200mm through 1st.. hole-shot.. MX-stuff..

Ok the quicker machines ( only V-rods, near-stock H-D-wise) will go past after 2nd.. but you still whip 'em off the line..

[Drew]

Just need a decent clutch, & know how to launch..

& on an RZ 350 its too easy, dial 6G, feed out the clutch, keep the front wheel hovering 'bout 200mm through 1st.. hole-shot..

Ok the quick stuff ( only V-rods, near-stock H-D-wise) will go past after 2nd.. but you still whip 'em off the line..

Bollucks. Maybe a sporty, but I'll wager Rossi couldn't get an RZ350 to launch better than a halfway decent rider on a big block.

[J.A.W.]

What showroom stock 'big-block' H-D does mid 12 sec 1/4 miles?

[J.A.W.]

I love doin' it.. its a hilarious party trick.. anyone who has gunned a decent 2T MX-er can do it too..

The look on those H-D guys faces is priceless.. you become invisible.. so - "it never happened" L.O.L...

Here is an RZ 350 test.. 12.66 @ 171 km/h on the way to 198 k/mh top end.. www.rd350lc.net/Magazine/CC_7_83_8full.jpg

[Drew]

What showroom stock 'big-block' H-D does mid 12 sec 1/4 miles?

Dunno, but I'm not talking about down a quarter. I'm talking about closer to an eighth mile

[J.A.W.]

Dunno, but I'm not talking about down a quarter. I'm talking about closer to an eighth mile

Me too, light bikes with punchy mills ( 158hp/litre - for the test bike) launch hard too.. RZ 350 needs only 1 shift to 100 km/h..

[F5 Dave]

I wasn't comparing the R6 to the RZ, the R6 has double the HP.

My point was - you want torque? Change down.

[Drew]

Me too, light bikes with punchy mills ( 158hp/litre - for the test bike) launch hard too.. RZ 350 needs only 1 shift to 100 km/h..
I still reckon you're talking shit.

I wasn't comparing the R6 to the RZ, the R6 has double the HP.

My point was - you want torque? Change down.

I'm not sure you're getting more torque, or more effect from the same torque. Semantics anyway. Get what ya mean.

[J.A.W.]

I wasn't comparing the R6 to the RZ, the R6 has double the HP.

My point was - you want torque? Change down.

Sure, down, down, down.. its annoying.. needing all those rpm ( +50% more) to match the specific ouput of a 30 year old bike - is weak..

[Drew]

I wonder though if I might be jumping the gun. Perhaps the two stroke has an advantage, whether it has the same torque or not. Some time ago at a group traffic light GP, my lil RGV held it's own against thousands and middleweights alike. Prolly not for 200 meters though. Some of the other guys were racers too, so it wasn't just squid factor.

[J.A.W.]

I still reckon you're talking shit.


I'm not sure you're getting more torque, or more effect from the same torque. Semantics anyway. Get what ya mean.


Def' he aint getting more torque.. its got SFA.. he's getting gearing advantage & rpm range to spread the thin torque via hp - further - like vegemite..

[J.A.W.]

I wonder though if I might be jumping the gun. Perhaps the two stroke has an advantage, whether it has the same torque or not. Some time ago at a group traffic light GP, my lil RGV held it's own against thousands and middleweights alike. Prolly not for 200 meters though. Some of the other guys were racers too, so it wasn't just squid factor.

Right.. its beating inertia..

[gav]

Anyone ridden a VFR400 and CBR400RR back to back? How did the "grunty" V4 perform against the "peaky" I4 ?

[Drew]

Anyone ridden a VFR400 and CBR400RR back to back? How did the "grunty" V4 perform against the "peaky" I4 ?

VFR/RVF are a fucken hell of a let down. The CBR is twice the bike, no matter what the application or test.

[gav]

VFR/RVF are a fucken hell of a let down. The CBR is twice the bike, no matter what the application or test.
Yup spot on, the CBR has so much more midrange and grunt it feels like a 600 in comparison :)

[Swoop]

How does the MV system work?
Some sort of witchcraft requiring olive oil and pasta, coupled with some garlic-based electrical system.

What showroom stock 'big-block' H-D does mid 1/4 hour?
Fixed it for ya.

[F5 Dave]

I still reckon you're talking shit.


I'm not sure you're getting more torque, or more effect from the same torque. Semantics anyway. Get what ya mean.
Not really. HP and torque are linked with some revs thrown in. And a constant.

More HP, more torque at the rear wheel, simple as that.

Power spread. . . well that's something different.

[AllanB]

Why does this worry you?

Yeah I should not give a shit as I don't own one - it's just friggen marketing again and that annoys me.

[skippa1]

Yeah I should not give a shit as I don't own one - it's just friggen marketing again and that annoys me.
If you think marketing is the only reason someone would buy a harley u might want to pull your head out of your arse

[J.A.W.]

Check this RZ 350 dyno chart out.. www.rd350lc.net/Magazine/MCI0986-5.jpg

Note the model update/up-tune, & the co-relation between TQ & HP..

If torque can be maintained over a wide rpm range, then eventually, HP mounts up..

But if you compare a stock 400/4 4T Honda to the chart above, it will look piss-weak.. long flat, & thin..

[AllanB]

If you think marketing is the only reason someone would buy a harley u might want to pull your head out of your arse

Nah ya knob. The 6th gear is a marketing wank on them. Loads of reasons to buy one (buy what you like) but a nice grunty big bore twin don't need a screaming IL4 6 speed box.

[skippa1]

Nah ya knob. The 6th gear is a marketing wank on them. Loads of reasons to buy one (buy what you like) but a nice grunty big bore twin don't need a screaming IL4 6 speed box.
6th gear is not a marketing wank, youve obviously not ridden a v rod cause i still try to hook sixth after 3 years owning one......

[AllanB]

6th gear is not a marketing wank, youve obviously not ridden a v rod cause i still try to hook sixth after 3 years owning one......

Well there's ya problem. A V-Rod is not a real Harley .................. :bleh:

[skippa1]

Well there's ya problem. A V-Rod is not a real Harley .................. :bleh:
And a Hondas not a motorcycle :baby:not for men anyway

[J.A.W.]

2T 500cc Hondas are, to be fair.. but the anodyne inline 4s are.. not.. really..

[J.A.W.]

Just to be clear on the whole TQ/HP/RPM thing.. see here.. www.kawtriple.com/mraxl/articles/1973%20Superbikes/superbikes2.htm

Note the different characteristics between twins, triples & fours.. ( & 2T VS 4T)..

[F5 Dave]

Journalists were still finding their way, even if that probably was the great Gordon Jennings writing that. All that matters is the HP curve and the appropriate gear ratios.

[J.A.W.]

"...Finding their way".. L.O.L...
Jess Thomas, Dave Boller & Cook Nielsen obviously know more about it than you, Dave.. & its basic bloody physics.. James Watt had it down pat centuries ago..

The HP curve is an artefact/extrapolation of the TQ X RPM.. & if you read it.. it states measuring "...RWHP & true engine TQ."
The acceleration testing discusses gearing technicalities too..

[F5 Dave]

Then why are we still talking about torque like its some magical force?

[AllanB]

Then why are we still talking about torque like its some magical force?

May the torque be with you.

Hmmm T-shirt slogan for a suitable brand?

[mossy1200]

Then why are we still talking about torque like its some magical force?

It is.
It shakes tread off your tyres without the side effect of acceleration.

[J.A.W.]

Then why are we still talking about torque like its some magical force?

Who is?

Torque, its a force of physics..

The "magical force" is in the electrickery.. as is well known, & its often dark magic.. ooohhh.. spooky, sparkly.. sprites..

[Drew]

Who is?

Torque, its a force of physics..

The "magical force" is in the electrickery.. as is well known, & its often dark magic.. ooohhh.. spooky, sparkly.. sprites..

That'll put the cat amongst the pigeons, since what we call horse power can be measured in electrical output. So since horse power is an arbitrary thing dreamed up by some wacko watching miners work and horses drag out coal, and torque is a measurement of leverage so completely seperate from acceleration, do we need to rename something?

[J.A.W.]

That'll put the cat amongst the pigeons, since what we call horse power can be measured in electrical output. So since horse power is an arbitrary thing dreamed up by some wacko watching miners work and horses drag out coal, and torque is a measurement of leverage so completely seperate from acceleration, do we need to rename something?


Watt?

James Watt, & he'd had those suckers hard pumpin' well before electrickery decided to make itself available to harness..

[GrayWolf]

Not really. HP and torque are linked with some revs thrown in. And a constant.

More HP, more torque at the rear wheel, simple as that.

Power spread. . . well that's something different.

that's not 'strictly' true, there is a correlation, yes, but many big inch bikes {V twins especially} produce huge torque figures with low HP ones...
FJ1200 I owned, 125hp, around 75ft lbs {that was a grunt monster in it's day}, ZZR1100 I own, around 140-145bhp torque no better than the FJ, and a 'peakier' power delivery.
My current ride CB1300 115bhp, 85ft lbs torque, and low down torque. My MT-01?? 1700cc 95bhp, 120ft lbs (modified bike) doesnt need 'revs' to produce power, and almost 'full torque' available from tickover. however unlike 4cyl's like the ZZR, it runs out of 'puff' in the higher rev range {for the particular motor rev range}

[GrayWolf]

If you think marketing is the only reason someone would buy a harley u might want to pull your head out of your arse

HD oil, Hd underwear, HD jackets, bandana's, hd braces, hd caps, hd wallets, hd boots, hd?????????
nope no marketing going on there, move along please....

[F5 Dave]

that's not 'strictly' true, there is a correlation, yes, but many big inch bikes {V twins especially} produce huge torque figures with low HP ones...
FJ1200 I owned, 125hp, around 75ft lbs {that was a grunt monster in it's day}, ZZR1100 I own, around 140-145bhp torque no better than the FJ, and a 'peakier' power delivery.
My current ride CB1300 115bhp, 85ft lbs torque, and low down torque. My MT-01?? 1700cc 95bhp, 120ft lbs (modified bike) doesnt need 'revs' to produce power, and almost 'full torque' available from tickover. however unlike 4cyl's like the ZZR, it runs out of 'puff' in the higher rev range {for the particular motor rev range}
Hmm, I say it's totally strictly true. You feel the HP increase as you add more throttle. Whether your engine is capable of a large increase at the revs and throttle position is another thing again, but mechanical advantage is a powerful force to be reckoned with.

[J.A.W.]

Hmm, I say it's totally strictly true. You feel the HP increase as you add more throttle. Whether your engine is capable of a large increase at the revs and throttle position is another thing again, but mechanical advantage is a powerful force to be reckoned with.

Dave, why not have a proper look at those dyno charts.. learn what engine characteristics really provide for the ride..

Compare the engines which produce rapidly climbing torque curves.. say the H2.. to the feel of the bike to ride.. it is lively, & naturally, this is a directly related thing..

Then look at the H-D dyno graph which shows a falling torque line, wherein the rpm/hp line barely catches up, before dying in the arse.. classic chugger/tractor feel..

Next, check the flattish torque curve but long rpm ranged Honda 4 graph.. the rpm allows the hp to build, but - its a steady flattish ( bit boring, IMO) feel for the rider too..
The text provides a good comparison of the Ducati V-twin & Z1 inline 4 with torque/rpm performance & gearing outcomes..

[skippa1]

HD oil, Hd underwear, HD jackets, bandana's, hd braces, hd caps, hd wallets, hd boots, hd?????????
nope no marketing going on there, move along please....
You want some of that action dont you

[AllanB]

All this talk of torque (could not resist).

HP - At 50 I always convert modern versions (ps etc) back to old school HP. A hundred of them was once impressive - then 150 (I had a book dedicated to 150 hp motorcycles years back GPZ900 etc etc). 200 or near it is the current horn producing figure for the power mad.

Torque has not enjoyed the same limelight however often what proves a selling point after a test ride - the earlier mentioned Jap fours with relitavely low hp for their litre plus engines but high torque have proven popular - GSX1400, CB1300 and the likes spring to mind.

As a wee side note - go and ride a Factory Screaming Eagle kitted big bore HD. They fair rip. Now just imagine if they decided that was the stock engine configuration.......

Triumph still disappoint in not offering hot-rod Bonnie. The aftermarket easily and reliably gain 80 hp out of these engines and much higher torque figures

[Drew]

All this talk of torque (could not resist).

HP - At 50 I always convert modern versions (ps etc) back to old school HP. A hundred of them was once impressive - then 150 (I had a book dedicated to 150 hp motorcycles years back GPZ900 etc etc). 200 or near it is the current horn producing figure for the power mad.

Torque has not enjoyed the same limelight however often what proves a selling point after a test ride - the earlier mentioned Jap fours with relitavely low hp for their litre plus engines but high torque have proven popular - GSX1400, CB1300 and the likes spring to mind.

As a wee side note - go and ride a Factory Screaming Eagle kitted big bore HD. They fair rip. Now just imagine if they decided that was the stock engine configuration.......

Triumph still disappoint in not offering hot-rod Bonnie. The aftermarket easily and reliably gain 80 hp out of these engines and much higher torque figures
Superduke R then. That torque figure is fucken astounding! 148 foot pounds or summat. Monsters a worked superbike till over half way down the straight.

[J.A.W.]

Triumph still disappoint in not offering hot-rod Bonnie. The aftermarket easily and reliably gain 80 hp out of these engines and much higher torque figures

These lumps are expensive to get a decent power increase from though.. & then the basic chassis feels like the cheap shit that it is..

So that's likely why Triumph doesn't do it.. not worth it, for their market..

I did see a modern Triton though, with a hotted up late Triumph twin lump squeezed into a new Commando chassis ( its very expensive mill had died..)

[Ender EnZed]

Superduke R then. That torque figure is fucken astounding! 148 foot pounds or summat. Monsters a worked superbike till over half way down the straight.

Nm rather than ft lbs but it's still a lot. About the same as an MT01 only it revs twice as high so makes twice the power.

[F5 Dave]

Dave, why not have a proper look at those dyno charts.. learn what engine characteristics really provide for the ride..

Compare the engines which produce rapidly climbing torque curves.. say the H2.. to the feel of the bike to ride.. it is lively, & naturally, this is a directly related thing..

Then look at the H-D dyno graph which shows a falling torque line, wherein the rpm/hp line barely catches up, before dying in the arse.. classic chugger/tractor feel..

Next, check the flattish torque curve but long rpm ranged Honda 4 graph.. the rpm allows the hp to build, but - its a steady flattish ( bit boring, IMO) feel for the rider too..
The text provides a good comparison of the Ducati V-twin & Z1 inline 4 with torque/rpm performance & gearing outcomes..
I have spent a considerable amount of time operating a dyno. I never bother looking at torque curves any more, just a by product IMO.

[J.A.W.]

I have spent a considerable amount of time operating a dyno. I never bother looking at torque curves any more, just a by product IMO.

Nah Dave.. its the other way around.. the hp is the "by-product", a time based mathematical value-construct - artefact - of the torque output..

Guess you don't need to know - how the physical chemistry in the evap' heat-exchange of a fridge works - to open it & get a cold beer out either.. so that's ok..

[F5 Dave]

I'll just leave you here being right.

[J.A.W.]

I'll just leave you here being right.

Thanks Dave, but credit Archimedes, Newton, Watt et al.. not me..

[F5 Dave]

Yeah, well Hitler agrees with me and he'd beat up your guys easily.

[J.A.W.]

HD oil, Hd underwear, HD jackets, bandana's, hd braces, hd caps, hd wallets, hd boots, hd?????????
nope no marketing going on there, move along please....


Sure, there's plenty of lifestyle shit too, if you want it.. so what?

But it aint all there is.. if you've never had a go on a Harley-Davidson, get it organised.. & then maybe you'll have some better informed views..
I like 'em.. for what they are.. I don't want one, 'cept maybe an XR 750 or similar, but I aint got hang-ups about International-Harvesters, ah, I mean, H-Ds..

[skippa1]

Sure, there's plenty of lifestyle shit too, if you want it.. so what?

But it aint all there is.. if you've never had a go on a Harley-Davidson, get it organised.. & then maybe you'll have some better informed views..
I like 'em.. for what they are.. I don't want one, 'cept maybe an XR 750 or similar, but I aint got hang-ups about International-Harvesters, ah, I mean, H-Ds..
I think its a fad...just taking the piss cause they can...no basis in fact

[J.A.W.]

Yeah, well Hitler agrees with me and he'd beat up your guys easily.

Cite the evidence.. Hitler was a well infomed motor-head, & no doubt he'd know better than you Dave..
Maybe you could operate some dodgy machinery for him, whlie knowing "nothing.. nothing" - like Sgt Schultz.. L.O.L...

[J.A.W.]

I think its a fad...just taking the piss cause they can...no basis in fact

What's the fad? Wee bells & skulls 'n' shit - festooned all over 'em?

[skippa1]

What's the fad? Wee bells & skulls 'n' shit - festooned all over 'em?
Just shit kickin for the sake of it"........like i said, no basis in fact

[J.A.W.]

Just shit kickin for the sake of it"........like i said, no basis in fact

Right.. never done even had a go on an H-D.. but know all - SFA - about it..

[AllanB]

Local HD shop used to do a annual test ride a HD day. It was a blast - rock up, book your bike and then they would head off around a preset route in a group for a spin. Spped limits be dammed it was a HD test ride day :cool:

Best of my knowledge they have not had one for a while but I may be wrong. 2016 models will be out soon so maybe another on its way?

If you are coming off anything other than a V twin cruiser one ride will not sell you one. You'll need a couple to get in the groove. Before you know it you'll be bandanna and fringe bound.

[J.A.W.]

Will they let you fang a V-Rod? Feel the TAG-Porsche tech.. its a.. an.. a.. just try it..

[AllanB]

Will they let you fang a V-Rod? Feel the TAG-Porsche tech.. its a.. an.. a.. just try it..

They had a demo some years back I rode - very underrated bike, popular in Europe, fast. My legs are not long enough for one - peg to seat ratio set for six footers plus! Mind you they had that mid mount peg one for a while with the square mufflers.

[J.A.W.]

Yep.. I didn't fit it either.. a bit of character, but too raked out.. felt ..not right.. funny it reminded me a bit - of an ancient Ducati..

[GrayWolf]

Sure, there's plenty of lifestyle shit too, if you want it.. so what?

But it aint all there is.. if you've never had a go on a Harley-Davidson, get it organised.. & then maybe you'll have some better informed views..
I like 'em.. for what they are.. I don't want one, 'cept maybe an XR 750 or similar, but I aint got hang-ups about International-Harvesters, ah, I mean, H-Ds..

I've ridden all the big block motors apart from the twin cam, havent ridden a V rod either. The only HD I would have owned was the XR1200, but I have an MT-01 anyway.
HD's are under-engineered and overpriced. Last brand new cruiser I purchased was a Guzzi Cali 1100 in 1995, a far superior bike for handling, performance etc out of the box, and only 2/3 of the price. There's that wonderful 'marketing' thing of HD, sell them a crap bike for performance/brakes etc, and bamboozle them with the 'personalising it/customising it' to make it 'individual' all from a catalogue that every other HD owner can purchase from.
HD still 'cash in' {and good on them, i'll add} on the bad boy, 1% H.A. image, and today the bikes are STILL bought by H.A's, Hells Accountants, 3 piece suit in the week, bad ass mofo real biker at the weekend {summertime only}

[Flip]

I have spent a considerable amount of time operating a dyno. I never bother looking at torque curves any more, just a by product IMO.

Are you suggesting kW/Nm is futile?

[F5 Dave]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U42wsVF82J4

[J.A.W.]

Dave.. did you just flip one off.. L.O.L...

[F5 Dave]

Whatever I'm sure you're right.

[J.A.W.]

Whatever I'm sure you're right.

Well yes Dave.. glad you appreciated the heads up on the whole TQ/HP deal.. guess you got learned good, huh..

[Flip]

Well yes Dave.. glad you appreciated the heads up on the whole TQ/HP deal.. guess you got learned good, huh..

Given TQ/HP IS JUST 1/REVS I guess F5 should have called it quits.

[caspernz]

Torque and power in atmo engines vs turbo engines are an even more fascinating topic. Then add average "life to overhaul" into the equation and you end up back at the maxim "no replacement for displacement" again.

That must be one of the reasons, apart from $$$, that we all favour our own kind of bikes. For my kind of riding, I've done the buzzy 600/750 IL4 race replica kind of thing, and the Busa fits my style for the time being.

Imagine what could be achieved if we could get a small turbo diesel into a cruiser such as the HD market? The learning curve needed to adapt ones' riding style to a rising torque curve with falling revs would be intriguing....:oi-grr:

[J.A.W.]

Torque and power in atmo engines vs turbo engines are an even more fascinating topic. Then add average "life to overhaul" into the equation and you end up back at the maxim "no replacement for displacement" again.

That must be one of the reasons, apart from $$$, that we all favour our own kind of bikes. For my kind of riding, I've done the buzzy 600/750 IL4 race replica kind of thing, and the Busa fits my style for the time being.

Imagine what could be achieved if we could get a small turbo diesel into a cruiser such as the HD market? The learning curve needed to adapt ones' riding style to a rising torque curve with falling revs would be intriguing....:oi-grr:


What makes you think the TQ would be rising.. with fuel cut ( C.I. mill) or throttled back ( S.I. mill) - on falling revs?

[Drew]

Given TQ/HP IS JUST 1/REVS I guess F5 should have called it quits.
Pretty sure it's torque/time. Revs has fuck all to do with it since you can use the unit of measurement to describe things that don't revolve.

[bogan]

Pretty sure it's torque/time. Revs has fuck all to do with it since you can use the unit of measurement to describe things that don't revolve.

Things that don't revolve tend to have 0hp though ;)

[F5 Dave]

Well yes Dave.. glad you appreciated the heads up on the whole TQ/HP deal.. guess you got learned good, huh..
Buddy I'm still not sure what point you were trying to make. All you taught me was that your personality makes it pointless and unenjoyable to engage with.

450 posts in less than a month. That's not normal. Let me guess. Told to leave every Australian forum? And I see its starting to happen here too.

Dude learn a life lesson. Stop posting for a week and come back with a better attitude to socialising. Cause that's what we are doing here. Clue is in the name,social media.

[caspernz]

What makes you think the TQ would be rising.. with fuel cut ( C.I. mill) or throttled back ( S.I. mill) - on falling revs?

Simple, unless the fuelling curve is set to keep torque flat, then the falling revs torque rise aspect is natural for a turbo diesel. This is why us truckers love torquey turbo diesels...:wings:

[J.A.W.]

Buddy I'm still not sure what point you were trying to make. All you taught me was that your personality makes it pointless and unenjoyable to engage with.

450 posts in less than a month. That's not normal. Let me guess. Told to leave every Australian forum? And I see its starting to happen here too.

Dude learn a life lesson. Stop posting for a week and come back with a better attitude to socialising. Cause that's what we are doing here. Clue is in the name,social media.


Too funny, you still don't get it..

It aint about me, or my personality, nor you & yours.. except in as much as you choose to ignore the longstanding, well-established physics..
The "life-lesson" is for you to learn Dave.. going ad hominem as a way of avoiding the pain of ego-growth is sadly, typical of infantile forum style..

Dumbing a forum down - to only those who think being 'nice' - even in a technical matter - is more important than learning the real deal - is what kills a lively forum.

[J.A.W.]

Pretty sure it's torque/time. Revs has fuck all to do with it since you can use the unit of measurement to describe things that don't revolve.


Revs - per minute - that is 360 angle turns repeated over time - IS the the means by which unit measurement for work done - HP - is expressed .. by the TQ force..

[J.A.W.]

Simple, unless the fuelling curve is set to keep torque flat, then the falling revs torque rise aspect is natural for a turbo diesel. This is why us truckers love torquey turbo diesels...:wings:


If you are keen on a light compact C.I. turbo mill, check out this 2.2 litre 2T - 1000hp unit.. designed by Garrett for NASA -as a high efficiency helo engine..

www.ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930001160.pdf

[Flip]

Revs - per minute - that is 360 angle turns repeated over time - IS the the means by which unit measurement for work done - HP - is expressed .. by the TQ force..

You are completely wrong, don't they teach basic maths in Auzy schools?

Work done is force x distance, or for a hydraulic system pressure x volume or for a rotational device torque x speed.

A motor can produce the same horse power if the speed is doubled if at the same time the torque is halved.

[J.A.W.]

You are completely wrong, don't they teach basic maths in Auzy schools?

Work done is force x distance, or for a hydraulic system pressure x volume or for a rotational device torque x speed.

A motor can produce the same horse power if the speed is doubled if at the same time the torque is halved.


No you are wrong.. the constant is 5252.. An electric motor produces max TQ off stall..

[F5 Dave]

And who is talking about being infantile?

So you see yourself as the bastion of truth. Your mission to teach us neurotypicals the errors of our ways.

So you are certain that you are smarter than all of us (my money is on Phil). Let's examine some facts. You've totally failed to convince me I've made a fundamental error.
So brush that off as me being stupid and too stupid to notice.

Judging by the amount of green reps I've got both before and after my ` Buddy` post, I'd say you've been wholly ineffective in that role. Your arguments are weak, and rely heavily on insult and claiming without basis that Einstein's grandmother agrees with you.

That's not that smart.

And you haven't changed anyone's opinion.

So why are you still here?

[J.A.W.]

Dave, when will you put away the weird over-personalising.. as previously noted, the TQ/HP deal is a well established physical process..
Whether or not you accept this, is your problem, & I am not concerned in the least about that.

As for your views on what constitutes a proper forum, & putative status therein, well, I find them quaintly fanciful, & also irrelevant to the discussion.
Nor do a few sycophantic rep votes over turn the laws of physics.. & really, an opinion's only worth - comes from the validation of the - facts - it is based on..

[TheDemonLord]

Things that don't revolve tend to have 0hp though ;)

I'm going to put on my Pedant hat and say that the piston doesn't revolve (its a reciprocating motion) yet has power :bleh:

[J.A.W.]

I'm going to put on my Pedant hat and say that the piston doesn't revolve (its a reciprocating motion) yet has power :bleh:

The piston in a Wankel mill does..

& the recip' piston is being forced by the combustion pressure - via its conrod to the crankpin - in a timed dynamic flow.

[lizardb0y]

Italian is typically very tall - 6th gear - click that bad boy in over 120 ....

Japanese at 120 - looking for gear 7 ....

I dunno. My old ZX10R was good to the imperial ton in 1st gear. Didn't really need 6th. None of my Ducs were good for that ;)

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[lizardb0y]

WTF is the point of a six speed Harley? Big fat torque beasts - fuckers only need 4 gears.

Wait... Harley's have gears? Huh.

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[Voltaire]

I've played with my 1972 BMW racer over the last few years and currently its running a stock cam with the squish machined down to 1.5mm with a set of 36mm Dells.
As an experiment at Puke on a cool down lap did the circuit in 5th, bit of clutch slip on Castrol but interesting.
Earlier in year at Taupo other than starting off did a whole race in 3rd, and had a battle with a Rob North Trident at the same time, pulls cleanly from just under 2000 RPM to rev limiter of 7500.
Fitting a proven asymmetrical cam for next year so that will be interesting. Still only have about 60-65 BHP but over that the cost/return ratio gets away on you.

[F5 Dave]

1.5mm squish? So still not working?

Might find 70bhp if you fix the clutch slip. Either the grip and suddenly let go, or as I've been finding more lately they can limit the HP to the rear wheel.

[J.A.W.]

These Bimmer guys seem to have a bit of a clue about it.. http://vintagebmw.org/v7/node/8205

[Voltaire]

1.5mm squish? So still not working?

Might find 70bhp if you fix the clutch slip. Either the grip and suddenly let go, or as I've been finding more lately they can limit the HP to the rear wheel.

I meant slipping the clutch as part of the 5th gear experiment. My mates BMW has been dyno'd at mid to high 70's and that's with no work done to the heads.

Work in progress.

[Voltaire]

These Bimmer guys seem to have a bit of a clue about it.. http://vintagebmw.org/v7/node/8205


Your pretty clued up on cutting and pasting.:lol::lol::lol:

please don't tell on me ...