Black Sunday?

[nelubian]

I've noticed couple of crashed over last weekend, then typed 'Motorcyclist' in the NZherald search and ...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11552976
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11552832
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11553159
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11553185

I've not seen so high death frequency before this Sunday. Or is it seasonable?

[rastuscat]

Shocking weekend. All I hope is not to see a mates name appear in the media. Or mine.

[Moise]

51 including pillions so far this year compared to 37 to the same date last year.

Total deaths are 287 already so will be over 300 for the year.

Whatever they are doing to make our roads safer is obviously not working.

[Banditbandit]

51 including pillions so far this year compared to 37 to the same date last year.

Total deaths are 287 already so will be over 300 for the year.

Whatever they are doing to make our roads safer is obviously not working.

That should be "we" .. what are we doing to make the roads safer ... It's not working because "they" are responsible ...

"They" are held responsible for everything .. but in fact, "they" are responsible for nothing ..

[haydes55]

That should be "we" .. what are we doing to make the roads safer ... It's not working because "they" are responsible ...

"They" are held responsible for everything .. but in fact, "they" are responsible for nothing ..
Actually they are responsible. I'm responsible for me and I haven't contributed to any stat. I'm welcome.

[EJK]

Sounds like zero tolerance martial law for Christmas.

[rastuscat]

Whatever they are doing to make our roads safer is obviously not working.

It's easy to push the blame onto "them".

Trouble is, push the blame "their" way, and you also lose control of the solution too.

Look in the mirror. You'll see a picture of the person responsible for your safety. The person who can make a difference immediately, at no cost.

Just sayin. For sure, some things we can't change as individuals. Tourists crossing the centre line, nope, can't do much about that sometimes. But a lot we can.

Meantime, stop waiting for "them" to solve your problems.

[caspernz]

Shocking weekend. All I hope is not to see a mates name appear in the media. Or mine.

My outlook is the same.


That should be "we" .. what are we doing to make the roads safer ... It's not working because "they" are responsible ...

"They" are held responsible for everything .. but in fact, "they" are responsible for nothing ..

How true! If only more took the same view.

[Mike.Gayner]

It's easy to push the blame onto "them".

Trouble is, push the blame "their" way, and you also lose control of the solution too.

Look in the mirror. You'll see a picture of the person responsible for your safety. The person who can make a difference immediately, at no cost.

Just sayin. For sure, some things we can't change as individuals. Tourists crossing the centre line, nope, can't do much about that sometimes. But a lot we can.

Meantime, stop waiting for "them" to solve your problems.

And yet "they" are still prepared to impose "their" will on us, justifying it by insisting that "their" enforcement techniques make us safer.

[awa355]

And yet "they" are still prepared to impose "their" will on us, justifying it by insisting that "their" enforcement techniques make us safer.

Perhaps if "they" didn't, then

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11552976
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11552832
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11553159
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11553185

might have been

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11552976
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11552832
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11553159
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11553185
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11552976
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11552832
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11553159
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11553185
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11552976
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11552832
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11553159
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11553185

[Gremlin]

Summer is coming, heap more bikes getting out on the road...

No-one keeps me safe but me, do the best you can. Doesn't matter if you're not legally at fault, you're the one coming off worst...

[tigertim20]

That should be "we" .. what are we doing to make the roads safer ... It's not working because "they" are responsible ...

"They" are held responsible for everything .. but in fact, "they" are responsible for nothing ..

perhaps 'they' should stop rushing to accept the responsibility for those occaisions where we have very low crash / death rates on particular holiday weekends then.

'they' also seem to be very quiet when a particular holiday period has a higher road toll though. funny that.

'their' techniques havent worked so far from what I can tell - so perhaps 'they' need to back off with their failed policies and try to do something working in conjunction with 'us'.

I do agree that each is responsible for their own safety, but current policies do not seem to have a consistent positive impact.

[Tazz]

What's the price of sour cream doing at the moment?


Sounds like zero tolerance martial law for Christmas.


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/A8MO7fkZc5o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Moise]

Not much I could have done to keep any of those 287 people alive.

The point that I'm trying to make is that road deaths, especially motorcyclists, are increasing, despite the present road safety initiatives. It seems perfectly reasonable to conclude that overall, our road safety programme is not effective.

[jasonu]

It seems perfectly reasonable to conclude that overall, our road safety programme is not effective.

or the general driving and or riding skill level in NZ is shit.

[Moise]

Actually, driving / riding standards would need to be getting worse to account for the increases.

[Tazz]

or the general driving and or riding skill level in NZ is shit.

and thus the current program is ineffective at targeting that ;)

From a quick look at the vague info of 3 crashes, one was failing to take a corner, one was getting taken out by a spastic overtaking in the opposite direction and another was someone not following at a safe distance.
How they think hiding behind shrubs on long straights is going to solve those kind of mistakes is beyond me.

[Moise]

Speed and alcohol, speed and alcohol. Sounds a little like an Oasis song. :)

That's the message though. Slow down and don't drink, and you'll be safe.

[Banditbandit]

Actually, driving / riding standards would need to be getting worse to account for the increases.


No - just a population increase with no increased level of skill ... that would give a basic data set showing increasing road carnage .. As a %age of the population road deaths may or may not be increasing .. ...

[rastuscat]

Speed and alcohol, speed and alcohol. Sounds a little like an Oasis song. :)

That's the message though. Slow down and don't drink, and you'll be safe.

Irony. In a few short words you summed up my motivation for jacking the job in.

I used to work in Road Policing. Now I work in Road Safety.

[Swoop]

I've not seen so high death frequency before this Sunday. Or is it seasonable?
It is the season to die.
Sadly it happens every year on the roads about this time, but it is a little later this year.


or the general driving and or riding skill level in NZ is shit.
Correct.

Even shitter if you are an asian tourist...

Actually, driving / riding standards would need to be getting worse to account for the increases.
They are. Over the past month the amount of instances I've personally noticed cannot be simply leveled at "the approaching silly-season".
Luckily I note that the filth are regurgitating the "4kmh enforcement" propaganda bollocks.

[Tazz]

They are. Over the past month the amount of instances I've personally noticed cannot be simply leveled at "the approaching silly-season".
Luckily I note that the filth are regurgitating the "4kmh enforcement" propaganda bollocks.

Same for me. All fucking locals too. Most people aren't perfect but can at least get around without hitting anyone because they have a bit of skill, rather than other avoiding getting taken out by them because of their own skill which seems to be more the case these days (if that makes sense)

[EJK]

Same for me. All fucking locals too. Most people aren't perfect but can at least get around without hitting anyone because they have a bit of skill, rather than other avoiding getting taken out by them because of their own skill which seems to be more the case these days (if that makes sense)

Like these Chinese?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/mid-canterbury-selwyn/74533866/three-flown-to-hospital-after-van-trapped-under-tree-near-arthurs-pass

Ridiculous! That idiot tree should've kept to the speed limit!

[Tazz]

Like these Chinese?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/mid-canterbury-selwyn/74533866/three-flown-to-hospital-after-van-trapped-under-tree-near-arthurs-pass

That tree wasn't paying enough attention ;)

Yeah they've made the news. No mention of someone a friend who passed out coughing because coke (the drink kind, so unexpected :blip: ) went up their nose which 'made' them have a head on, luckily minor.
Paper would be all over that shit if he was a foreign national.

Even the motorcycle crashes, if any of those riders were foreign tourists there would be a circus about it.

Lastly, are reporters getting that bad they have to say a tow truck was used to tow a wreck? Da faq? Of course it was, and who the hell cares.
Hmm, I am thinking about making a career change...

[nodrog]

or the general driving and or riding skill level in NZ is shit.

apart from mine, mine is awesome.

[jasonu]

apart from mine, mine is awesome.

So's mine mate and everyone else on the road is either going too fast or too slow and is an idiot!

[nodrog]

So's mine mate and everyone else on the road is either going too fast or too slow and is an idiot!

every time I'm on the road, everybody else is going the wrong way down the motorway.

[AllanB]

Annoying thing is that poor bastards like the guy last week stopped at the lights 4WD at speed behind him does not stop. Image on Stuff was chilling as the 4WD was halfway up the car in front - remember there was a motorcycle in between. Or the head on last weekend (bike in the right).

All these get stuffed into the motorcycles are evil category of ACC. Guess it will be on the rise again ......

Still been that way forever- won't change as not enough give a shit.

Just be careful out there.

[Daffyd]

I know I'm likely to be pilloried for this. I also know that in all of the incidents on Sunday the biker was not at fault, AFAIK.

However, a factor that is never mentioned is the fact that bikes, especially sprotbikes, are becoming more powerful and faster.

Is their performance outgrowing the abilities of their riders? Do riders need to look in the mirror and ask that person, "Do I have the skills and the reactions necessary to safely ride this bike in any road conditions?"

[nodrog]

I know I'm likely to be pilloried for this. I also know that in all of the incidents on Sunday the biker was not at fault, AFAIK.

However, a factor that is never mentioned is the fact that bikes, especially sprotbikes, are becoming more powerful and faster.

Is their performance outgrowing the abilities of their riders? Do riders need to look in the mirror and ask that person, "Do I have the skills and the reactions necessary to safely ride this bike in any road conditions?"

They also have all the electronic rider aids you could possibly never want.

The only way you could ever crash one would be to close your eyes and ride into a bank.

Or just wait for some tourist to mow you down.

[Daffyd]

Good point, but what about the, say, ten y/o ones, prior to the common use of these aids?

[EJK]

I know I'm likely to be pilloried for this. I also know that in all of the incidents on Sunday the biker was not at fault, AFAIK.

However, a factor that is never mentioned is the fact that bikes, especially sprotbikes, are becoming more powerful and faster.

Is their performance outgrowing the abilities of their riders? Do riders need to look in the mirror and ask that person, "Do I have the skills and the reactions necessary to safely ride this bike in any road conditions?"

Take out the crazy amount of horsepower and you'll have one of the safest bike money can buy.

Light and easy to handle.
Traction control helps you prevent low/ highside accidents (to a certain point). Watch https://youtu.be/1_d5-bq2C30.
Safe ABS braking for that emergency "drop the anchor" moments. Also prevents deadly wheel-locking on wet days.
Bonus: Have modern sporty tyres and you have tonnes of grip you'll probably ever need (depends how you ride tho).

Strictly in that regards, modern bikes are safer compare to even pretty late 2009 Yamaha R1s :msn-wink:

[Moise]

It's not just sportsbikes, some of the adventure bikes are pretty mental too.

There aren't many of the latest sportsbikes out there, most people seem to be buying cruisers and nakeds.

[Mike.Gayner]

I know I'm likely to be pilloried for this. I also know that in all of the incidents on Sunday the biker was not at fault, AFAIK.

However, a factor that is never mentioned is the fact that bikes, especially sprotbikes, are becoming more powerful and faster.

Is their performance outgrowing the abilities of their riders? Do riders need to look in the mirror and ask that person, "Do I have the skills and the reactions necessary to safely ride this bike in any road conditions?"

On the open road I'd feel safer on a modern sportsbike than on my Kawa 2-stroke with its cheese chassis and drum brakes any day. The technological improvements are not just speed, they're handling and stopping too.

[Tazz]

I know I'm likely to be pilloried for this. I also know that in all of the incidents on Sunday the biker was not at fault, AFAIK.

However, a factor that is never mentioned is the fact that bikes, especially sprotbikes, are becoming more powerful and faster.

Is their performance outgrowing the abilities of their riders? Do riders need to look in the mirror and ask that person, "Do I have the skills and the reactions necessary to safely ride this bike in any road conditions?"

If all those crashes on the weekend were indeed not the result of rider error due to a 'powerful and faster' bike than nostalgically safe days of yonder, then you've kinda already answered your own question on why an apparently non existing factor is not mentioned.

That said, you can corner too fast on a CT110, you can have a head on over taking poorly on your tractor Harley Davidson, you can crack over 200 on a 20 year old bike, the common denominator there is you and your decisions/skills.
On that note even the licensing system is definitely harder than it was even 10 years ago.

[AllanB]

Fact is roads are also significantly busier.

In 1980 when I started riding the population was 3.1 million and we were one car families.

Now 4.5 million - two plus cars in most driveways.

Plus those jellybean coloured fucking road cyclists on the decent roads early each weekend. Bastards.

[Daffyd]

Take out the crazy amount of horsepower and you'll have one of the safest bike money can buy.

(depends how you ride tho).

Strictly in that regards, modern bikes are safer compare to even pretty late 2009 Yamaha R1s :msn-wink:

With these two comments you have backed up my theory.

[Daffyd]

If all those crashes on the weekend were indeed not the result of rider error due to a 'powerful and faster' bike than nostalgically safe days of yonder, then you've kinda already answered your own question on why an apparently non existing factor is not mentioned.

I don't think you read my post properly... I also know that in all of the incidents on Sunday the biker was not at fault, AFAIK.

I was referring to m/c accidents in general.

I would be interested to know what types of bikes are involved in these situations.

[ellipsis]

apart from mine, mine is awesome.


...I've only ever see you turn left, so I'll have to reserve judgement...

[EJK]

With these two comments you have backed up my theory.

If you are stating that "gigawatts of horsepower" makes modern sportsbikes dangerous then... tis a bit biased don't you think? You are only looking one side of the coin (shit, can't think of a better idiom. Someone, quick! Help!).

[Daffyd]

If you are stating that "gigawatts of horsepower" makes modern sportsbikes dangerous then... tis a bit biased don't you think? You are only looking one side of the coin (shit, can't think of a better idiom. Someone, quick! Help!).

No, I'm not saying that as such. I'm saying, "Modern sportsbikes with 'gigawatts of horsepower' COULD be dangerous IN THE WRONG HANDS, ie the inexperienced."

Take my situation for example... At 73 I have the benefit of a considerable amount of experience, but I would never claim to be an expert rider. Because I am 73 I have a highly developed sense of self preservation. Maybe I am 73 because I have a highly developed sense of self preservation. After all, I have survived nearly four years of riding in the Philippines.This is an attribute that is developed over years of life experiences and does not automatically come to teenagers or even those in their 20's.

Therefore, when/if I buy a bike on my return to NZ, it will not be a super powerful sportsbike, but something 'more suited to my age and lifestyle.' (And, of course, my budget).

[rastuscat]

Just thought I'd mention that 1973 was the worst year on our roads. 843 died.

At a time when families mostly had only 1 car. And the population was 2 million ish.

We've come a long way.

[pritch]

I know I'm likely to be pilloried for this. I also know that in all of the incidents on Sunday the biker was not at fault, AFAIK.

However, a factor that is never mentioned is the fact that bikes, especially sprotbikes, are becoming more powerful and faster.

Is their performance outgrowing the abilities of their riders? Do riders need to look in the mirror and ask that person, "Do I have the skills and the reactions necessary to safely ride this bike in any road conditions?"

For a minute there I thought that post was from Cassina. :whistle:

[awa355]

No, I'm not saying that as such. I'm saying, "Modern sportsbikes with 'gigawatts of horsepower' COULD be dangerous IN THE WRONG HANDS, ie the inexperienced."

They were saying all this back in the '70's. "69hp? just bloody ridiculous, where the hell can you use that kinda horsepower"? :weird::(

[rastuscat]

A bit off topic but I also see problems with our ability to go buy whatever rocket ship we want. Bloody risky freedom, that.

[Daffyd]

For a minute there I thought that post was from Cassina. :whistle:

Now that really was a low blow!

[Daffyd]

They were saying all this back in the '70's. "69hp? just bloody ridiculous, where the hell can you use that kinda horsepower"? :weird::(

Track days?

[Daffyd]

A bit off topic but I also see problems with our ability to go buy whatever rocket ship we want. Bloody risky freedom, that.

Exactly my point.

[tigertim20]

No, I'm not saying that as such. I'm saying, "Modern sportsbikes with 'gigawatts of horsepower' COULD be dangerous IN THE WRONG HANDS, ie the inexperienced."

Take my situation for example... At 73 I have the benefit of a considerable amount of experience, but I would never claim to be an expert rider. Because I am 73 I have a highly developed sense of self preservation. Maybe I am 73 because I have a highly developed sense of self preservation. After all, I have survived nearly four years of riding in the Philippines.This is an attribute that is developed over years of life experiences and does not automatically come to teenagers or even those in their 20's.

Therefore, when/if I buy a bike on my return to NZ, it will not be a super powerful sportsbike, but something 'more suited to my age and lifestyle.' (And, of course, my budget).

the inherent flaw in your perspective, is the idea that skill and experience are related. they are not.

a substantial portion of the people I see driving with complete disregard for, or lack of knowledge of give way rules, round about etiquette and lack of ice / snow driving ability are people in the higher age groups.

[EJK]

Do you think they need to put rubber crash barriers down the centre line and sides of all roads? The problem with that is though our registration/tax will go through the roof in order to fund it.

I have a better idea. We should bubble wrap ourselves when riding.

[Daffyd]

the inherent flaw in your perspective, is the idea that skill and experience are related. they are not.

a substantial portion of the people I see driving with complete disregard for, or lack of knowledge of give way rules, round about etiquette and lack of ice / snow driving ability are people in the higher age groups.

I never said they were related... If you had read my post properly you would have seen that I do not claim to be an expert, (read skillfull,) rider, but at 73, have had one 'off' at about 15kph, one at about 5kph and one while stationary. I think that would class me as 'experienced'.

[EJK]

I think I read somewhere where you can get an inflateable airbag that goes off if you begin to fall off but
that was a long time ago so perhaps it did not work as well as hoped otherwise they would be very common.

The bubble wrap was a joke but FYI that suit is by Dainese and Valentino Rossi wore it this Moto GP season. D-Air is what they call it.

[Gremlin]

Take my situation for example... At 73 I have the benefit of a considerable amount of experience, but I would never claim to be an expert rider. Because I am 73 I have a highly developed sense of self preservation. Maybe I am 73 because I have a highly developed sense of self preservation. After all, I have survived nearly four years of riding in the Philippines.This is an attribute that is developed over years of life experiences and does not automatically come to teenagers or even those in their 20's.
(big generalisation) There are pros and cons to every road user group. Younger, less experienced and less able to identify risk, and possibly, depending on their social circle, more risky behaviour (less road worthy vehicles, carrying passengers on wrong licence, drinking and driving etc). However, they also bounce better and heal quicker being younger. Through a lack of funds, possibly less vehicles per person than older people. Likely gone through tougher more recent driving testing.

Older drivers, well, returning riders for example feature heavily in statistics. May be experienced, may not be (have they been riding the whole time, or just getting back into it after a decade or two off). Likely haven't had their driving skills tested in decades, road law knowledge may be out of date. While young people are distracted by their peers, older people could be distracted by their family, kids etc. They may have a more mature attitude to the road, but then I've seen plenty who don't. Drinking and driving still features...

As you get older, your reactions slow, and you don't recover as quickly. Hard part is getting people to acknowledge that...

[haydes55]

The bubble wrap was a joke but FYI that suit is by Dainese and Valentino Rossi wore it this Moto GP season. D-Air is what they call it.
I've got an air jacket, had it for a couple years now. Havent used it for a couple years either. 'Point 2' is the brand.

Problem is I have to tether the jacket to the bike each time I get on then unclip when I get off. It's also gets pretty warm umder it. It's also got a built in back protector.

[pritch]

The bubble wrap was a joke but FYI that suit is by Dainese and Valentino Rossi wore it this Moto GP season. D-Air is what they call it.

I think all the GP riders have air bag suits now, they've had them for a season or two. They all seem to have little LEDs blinking on their sleeve anyway. Anything Dainese is expensive but the air option is right up there.

The GP suits don't need to be tethered either, I haven't checked whether the versions currently available to us still require that. My interest would only be academic at the current pricing.

[jasonu]

Is their performance outgrowing the abilities of their riders? Do riders need to look in the mirror and ask that person, "Do I have the skills and the reactions necessary to safely ride this bike in any road conditions?"

According to the pigs these are too powerful for a lot of riders and have been banned...
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11552282

[jasonu]

I think there is overseas statistics that those features create a feeling of overconfidence resulting in no fewer crashes from vehicles with them.

Can you provide links to this information?

[Tazz]

I don't think you read my post properly... I also know that in all of the incidents on Sunday the biker was not at fault, AFAIK.

I was referring to m/c accidents in general.

I would be interested to know what types of bikes are involved in these situations.

I was using the weekend as a sample of crashes in general since there was a decent amount...

The speed is not really what kills anyway, it's the decisions that lead up to doing that speed in a situation where the outcome is obviously not ideal or planned which is all on the rider and can happen on any bike regardless of pony powers.

[neels]

I observed a reasonable amount of madness in 1500k's over 4 days including the weekend, from pretty much all types of road users, and I have no doubt that there would be observers saying the same about me.

One close encounter with a rental camper, therefore assumed tourist, on my side of the road.
All the usual mental behavior on passing lanes, there really needs to be some research on the subconscious effect of passing lane signs on otherwise sane drivers
Drivers who would rather speed up and drive at their or their vehicles limits than pull over and let someone pass who has caught up to them
People weaving across the road while looking at their cellphones rather than where they are going
Some interesting behavior from motorcyclists, particularly those who like to travel in large groups and wear matching jackets.

Somehow, by some combination of good luck and good management, made it home to ride another day. Thoughts to the family of those who didn't, through no fault of their own.

[Old Steve]

On Sunday, coming down from Wellsford to Kaukapakapa, I came across a sports bike rider who'd just come off on a fairly clean straight piece of road. A couple in a ute had pulled up and were helping him. No obvious damage apart from a scarred helmet and some broken platstic on his bike, but it would have been a 100 km/hr stretch of road and it could have been worse so he was lucky I guess.

I'm 67 and have only 7 years riding experience so I ride within my limits and have chosen my bike accordingly (cruiser, 37 kW and 270 kg). But it can happen to anybody, with or without the help of overseas tourists or locals texting on their mobiles.

"Be careful out there".

[willytheekid]

Maybe....its time we started TEACHING people how to drive safely...instead of just TESTING what mommy/daddy & mates have passed on to the new road user.


Seriously...name ANY European country that allows you to drive or ride with out passing a defensive driving/riding course or such...answer - NONE! (Cos there not stupid!, they ACTUALLY focus on safety!!...not just easy revenue on the day and in the future due to slack arse driving habits & poor training)



We need mandatory defensive driving BEFORE you can even try driving on a public road...cos our present system IS!! -

Can ya pull out?
Can ya park?
Get round the block?
Use an indicator/Mirrors?
Not speed?

FUCKING GREAT!!!..thanks for your money, here's a license!...just learn the rest as ya go!...and good luck!!

...and this Bullshit slack system is killing kiwi's faster than fucking cancer!!


Guess its just easier to charge kiwis for a BS "test", then nail them over & over & over for easy money/revenue as a direct result of said poor "testing" failing to prepare them for the road...actual training of drivers would cost and result in less easy revenue grabs...cos profit before people<_<

Teach a man to fly a plane, and he will fly!...but let him just "give it a shot" with very little training and a poor understanding of the dangers faced...he gonna crash & burn!

...it aint fucking rocket science!

[Daffyd]

(big generalisation) There are pros and cons to every road user group. Younger, less experienced and less able to identify risk, and possibly, depending on their social circle, more risky behaviour (less road worthy vehicles, carrying passengers on wrong licence, drinking and driving etc). However, they also bounce better and heal quicker being younger. Through a lack of funds, possibly less vehicles per person than older people. Likely gone through tougher more recent driving testing.

Older drivers, well, returning riders for example feature heavily in statistics. May be experienced, may not be (have they been riding the whole time, or just getting back into it after a decade or two off). Likely haven't had their driving skills tested in decades, road law knowledge may be out of date. While young people are distracted by their peers, older people could be distracted by their family, kids etc. They may have a more mature attitude to the road, but then I've seen plenty who don't. Drinking and driving still features...

As you get older, your reactions slow, and you don't recover as quickly. Hard part is getting people to acknowledge that...

I agree with everything you say. I know I am generalising but isn't that what statistics do? I know I had a decade or so off. I know my reactions are, perhaps, slower than they were, but having acknowledged that I make allowances and slow down a little more before blind bends, roundabouts, other potential problem areas etc.

[Daffyd]

I was using the weekend as a sample of crashes in general since there was a decent amount...

The speed is not really what kills anyway, it's the decisions that lead up to doing that speed in a situation where the outcome is obviously not ideal or planned which is all on the rider and can happen on any bike regardless of pony powers.

And if the speed is higher as a result of more pony powers the reaction time is less.

[jasonu]

I did see a UK survey on the net that said people drove more dangerously as they believed their ABS etc would save them. The survey did not cover bikes.

Then why did you bother to mention it?
Bint!!!

[Tazz]

And if the speed is higher as a result of more pony powers the reaction time is less.

Doesn't matter, you're already at a speed you shouldn't be at, in a situation you shouldn't be in. That can happen at 50kph or even at 10kph. You put yourself in that danger intentionally or otherwise, shit does happen, but it's not your speeds fault or you bike, it's you.

Plugging something into your wall socket carries a risk of getting electrocuted. If you jam a metal fork in it you increase that risk. Does that mean that there should be a lower voltage for those toe rags that want to jam a fork in so less of them die?

I'll have to double check but most accidents happen at under 100k anyway from memory.

[TheDemonLord]

Some European tourists kil on our roads too so a defensive driving course is no gurantee of a safer motorist.

an RPG Based protection system however would be 100% effective against European tourists (or those from any other Nationality).

[EJK]

Some European tourists kil on our roads too so a defensive driving course is no gurantee of a safer motorist.

Since NZ nationals are superior drivers compared to tourists, all foreign drivers should identify themselves with a special marked badge. Something like this:

http://f.tqn.com/y/history1900s/1/W/2/E/1/yellowstar.jpg

[Daffyd]

Doesn't matter, you're already at a speed you shouldn't be at, in a situation you shouldn't be in. That can happen at 50kph or even at 10kph. You put yourself in that danger intentionally or otherwise, shit does happen, but it's not your speeds fault or you bike, it's you.

Exactly... Which is why I said in the first place, Do riders need to look in the mirror and ask that person, "Do I have the skills and the reactions necessary to safely ride this bike in any road conditions?"

[Moise]

I don't think it the current driver licencing system that's the issue. It's more the fact that the majority of drivers on the roads haven't been taught to drive properly.

For example, riders of my generation got a full motorbike licence by answering a few questions and then doing a short ride while the traffic officer (remember them?) watched from the footpath.

I hate to think how many migrants have NZ licences but someone else sat the test for them. Shouldn't happen now, but it did go on for a few years.

The largest category are probably all the Kiwis who were taught badly by their father but still think they are good drivers.

[willytheekid]

Some European tourists kil on our roads too so a defensive driving course is no gurantee of a safer motorist.

:facepalm:...thats the entire point of defensive driver/rider training...to make safer & more aware road users out of ordinary people willing to learn the correct & safe way to travel and handle there vehicle in most road conditions...Kinda WHY its called defensive training:facepalm: (You should try it!...its fun and you learn to stay alive alot longer on two wheels...win! win!!)

...imagine Pilots had the same amount of "training" as our current road handling testing provides...would you get on the plane with them at the wheel??:crazy:



ps...Go book in with Rastuscat, he'll learn ya real good about road safety and defensive riding :yes: (Sorry Ras...but you like a "challenge" aye :killingme)

[Moi]

A few thoughts...

First - we are not taught to drive / ride in New Zealand, certainly not in the sense of being taught as understood by EU countries...

Second - yes, some European drivers have crashed and caused serious injuries and/or death[s]: perhaps as you tire you revert to the taught default mode which doesn't work if you are driving on the left side of the road...

Third - speed and alcohol are contributing factors to crashes, so are many other factors such as weather, road condition, vehicle condition, driver condition - does this mean we should be taking greater notice of the conditions while we are driving / riding?

Fourth - I think a few NZ drivers and riders need to have their brain rule what they are doing on the road rather than having their groin do it...

Now I await the red rep and the flaming personal attacks...

[EJK]

The largest category are probably all the Kiwis who were taught badly by their father but still think they are good drivers.

As Jay Leno once said: Driving (or riding bikes perhaps) is like sex. Every men thinks they are good at it.

[Moi]

As Jay Leno once said: Driving (or riding bikes perhaps) is like sex. Every men thinks they are good at it.

So my driving reflects my sexual skill... :eek:

Seriously, I like Jay's comment, bit like that Australian road safety ad...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibAe8ArmvwY

[Badjelly]

Do riders need to look in the mirror and ask that person, "Do I have the skills and the reactions necessary to safely ride this bike in any road conditions?"

When I look in the mirror I see my elbows. They don't answer.

[TheDemonLord]

Do riders need to look in the mirror and ask that person, "Do I have the skills and the reactions necessary to safely ride this bike in any road conditions?"

I always answer no - To answer yes is when complacency has set in.

[Swoop]

I have a better idea. We should bubble wrap ourselves when riding.
That is a waste of plastic. A simple yellow vest is all that is required.
Perhaps glue an orange road cone to the PAX seat if you are REALLY paranoid.

I dont know how I will be at 67...
Keep trying sweetie. Your IQ level might reach that amount in the future.

Maybe....its time we started TEACHING people how to drive safely...instead of just TESTING what mommy/daddy & mates have passed on to the new road user.
Will you stop making sense!
Kiwi's are taught how to "pass the test" and that is the ONLY priority.

[AllanB]

here is a thought. Having recently purchased the fastest, best handling, best stopping bike I have ever owned. All that goodness tends to higher cornering speeds.


And I still haven't completely killed the chicken strips .......


So though the bike is technically safer (stops and corners better etc) if I encounter a mid corner buttock puckering moment like a sheep on the road or a tourist van stopped to take pictures I may well be carrying a higher corner speed........ more mess.

Being aware of this shit is probably why the chicken strips have not completely disappeared. Well it is one of the better excuses I have seen for some time.

[awa355]

As Jay Leno once said: Driving (or riding bikes perhaps) is like sex. Every men thinks they are good at it.

Or as Stirling Moss said, "Two things most men will never admit they are no good at, making love and driving cars".

[Daffyd]

Or as Stirling Moss said, "Two things most men will never admit they are no good at, making love and driving cars".

A brilliant man whose career was cut off all too soon. As someone else said, "The best driver in the world to have never won an F1 championship."

[Frodo]

Statistics and lies?

I think the most authoritative study in the tourist drivers in NZ is: "Statistical analysis of tourist crashes in southern New Zealand" prepared for Otago and Southland Regional Councils, April 2015.
While these stats focus on the southern South Island, this is where there are more tourist drivers (and where I'll be riding in two weeks).

Key findings are:

Comparative to all districts in New Zealand, Southland and Clutha Districts have experienced a relatively high rate of casualties per head of population (consistently between 60 and 79 per 10,000 population, over these four years. The number of tourist crashes occurring in these districts is a major contributor to this statistic.
The number of tourist crashes in southern New Zealand stayed relatively constant over the four years 2010-2013 inclusive, without a noticeable increase or decrease.
Tourist crashes tend not to be any more or less severe, on average, than local crashes.
Tourist crashes in all southern districts disproportionately involve unfamiliarity with New Zealand road rules/road conditions.
Tourist crashes do tend to be associated with a failure to adjust to New Zealand road rules and/or road conditions; that is, they often crash in situations where local New Zealand drivers probably would not.
Tourist crashes in all southern districts except for Central Otago disproportionately involve younger adults aged 25-34 years old.
Tourists crash often on gravel roads in Southland, Clutha and Waitaki districts.


We recommend that efforts to reduce the level of serious road trauma caused or suffered by tourist drivers in southern New Zealand concentrate on:
- improving tourist drivers’ knowledge of New Zealand road conditions and road rules
- teaching tourist drivers how to drive on gravel roads: targeting drivers aged 25 to 34 years, in particular, and/or sealing roads commonly used by tourists
-improving safety along SH 94 (which involves more than road engineering; attention should also be paid to reducing fatigue and improving concentration, for example).

My take: tourists do have higher accident rates (at least in the southern SI). However, if you're going to be taken out by a driver, this is probably more likely to be due to a local driver simply because there are more locals on the roads (with the exception of roads such as the Milford Road).
On the other hand, while I have a reasonable chance of avoiding a car that, say, pulls out in front of me, I have little chance of avoiding a vehicle on the wrong side of the road in a corner. I have found no stats on this, but I reckon that tourists are more likely to be cause of this.

And will any of this stop me from going on my planned 8-day ride around the South Island starting in 10 days? Heck no!

[Berries]

I think the most authoritative study in the tourist drivers in NZ is: "Statistical analysis of tourist crashes in southern New Zealand" prepared for Otago and Southland Regional Councils, April 2015.There is this report as well which might be of interest - Visitor drivers in Otago and Southland. (http://trafinz.org.nz/workspace/downloads/byfield-jeremy-140815-55da4851e0a39.pdf)


My take: tourists do have higher accident rates (at least in the southern SI). However, if you're going to be taken out by a driver, this is probably more likely to be due to a local driver simply because there are more locals on the roads (with the exception of roads such as the Milford Road).
On the other hand, while I have a reasonable chance of avoiding a car that, say, pulls out in front of me, I have little chance of avoiding a vehicle on the wrong side of the road in a corner. I have found no stats on this, but I reckon that tourists are more likely to be cause of this.

And will any of this stop me from going on my planned 8-day ride around the South Island starting in 10 days? Heck no!
Not a bad assumption, and I would not let it ruin your ride down south. Just remember there are a lot of tourists down here, some of them do dumb shit, just don't get wound up, laugh at them and ride on. Treat the locals the same and chances are you will be fine.

[Old Steve]

I dont know how I will be at 67 but I would think a 270 kg bike would be a bit on the heavy side for someone that age as the heavier they are the less easy they are to corner on especialy cruisers. My pick and I do own one now if I was your age would be an adventure bike as they handle lighter than a road bike/cruiser for the same size motor. The only drawback with them is they do have tall seats which limit the number of people who can ride them.

Well, take it from me:

1. 270 kg cruiser isn't a problem, with a cruiser the c of g is much lower than a sports or adventure bike so it is easier to lean the bike (though it needs to lean more than a higher c of g sports bike for the same corner) and the handlebars are much wider so you actually need less effort to move them (torque equals force times distance).

2. I'm a bit - well, very much - challenged in the internal leg measurement, so a cruiser is it. I rode a Honda ST1100 for a couple of years in Oz and it's a very high bike and only the balls of my feet could touch the ground. Much happier back on the cruiser.

3. I would assume that an adventure bike would have a more powerful engine, my choice of a cruiser is made with my skill level in mind and I ride to those limitations. That's my choice, other people may be happier with a more powerful/lighter higher performance bike but I'm happy as I am.

[pete376403]

Well, take it from me:

3. I would assume that an adventure bike would have a more powerful engine, my choice of a cruiser is made with my skill level in mind and I ride to those limitations. That's my choice, other people may be happier with a more powerful/lighter higher performance bike but I'm happy as I am.

My KLR ("adventure bike") puts out a shattering 39HP (measured at the advertising brochure), so, nah, not really. It is pretty tall, though.

[Moise]

here is a thought. Having recently purchased the fastest, best handling, best stopping bike I have ever owned. All that goodness tends to higher cornering speeds.


And I still haven't completely killed the chicken strips .......


So though the bike is technically safer (stops and corners better etc) if I encounter a mid corner buttock puckering moment like a sheep on the road or a tourist van stopped to take pictures I may well be carrying a higher corner speed........ more mess.

Being aware of this shit is probably why the chicken strips have not completely disappeared. Well it is one of the better excuses I have seen for some time.
Not sure where you live, but a ride around Coromandel should fix the chicken strip issue. Worked for me anyway ...

[Tazz]

Exactly... Which is why I said in the first place, Do riders need to look in the mirror and ask that person, "Do I have the skills and the reactions necessary to safely ride this bike in any road conditions?"

Why have you left out the rest your quote which is relevant to what you have quoted me saying? Sneaky :P

Since you still mention the bike in there, my argument remains the same. The 'bike' has nothing to do with it, it's all on the rider and a rider can make a bad decision on ANY bike, in a nutshell.

Your quote above the way I read is is outright asking whether a rider should be riding at all. If that's your vein aren't you in fact questioning the licensing and training systems in place? Because that has nothing to do with the bike. If you can't ride a bike in the rain, at night, through road works etc (varying conditions) then you won't (or at least shouldn't) have a license or you need to be taking advantage of some of the subsidised 'Ride Forever' courses, imo.

[Daffyd]

Why have you left out the rest your quote which is relevant to what you have quoted me saying? Sneaky :P

Since you still mention the bike in there, my argument remains the same. The 'bike' has nothing to do with it, it's all on the rider and a rider can make a bad decision on ANY bike, in a nutshell.

Your quote above the way I read is is outright asking whether a rider should be riding at all. If that's your vein aren't you in fact questioning the licensing and training systems in place? Because that has nothing to do with the bike. If you can't ride a bike in the rain, at night, through road works etc (varying conditions) then you won't (or at least shouldn't) have a license or you need to be taking advantage of some of the subsidised 'Ride Forever' courses, imo.

I left out the rest of the quote because I wanted to emphasize The part that I quoted again.

I think we might be at cross purposes here, but in a way agreeing on most points. The others, well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[RDJ]

For example, riders of my generation got a full motorbike licence by answering a few questions and then doing a short ride while the traffic officer (remember them?) watched from the footpath.

Ah, them wuz the daze. Day I turned 15 I I borrowed a friend's Vespa (my off-road bike was unroadworthy) and took my test on the steepest hill anyone knew of back then, off Mt Eden Road (can't remember the name of the street but near the Hillsborough end).

Turned up wearing a helmet, in those days that was unusual. Apparently. Didn't start well, left handlebar mounted gearshift came adrift and required fixing while the officer patiently waited. Then I was told to start it up, turn it off, do a hill start (facing uphill, natch), do a U-turn before I got out of sight, come back and park diagonally. A short ride, but interesting challenges haha. And then I was 'qualified' at age 15 to mix it with the Auckland commuter traffic to and from school from Blockhouse Bay to Epsom...

[RDJ]

There is this report as well which might be of interest - Visitor drivers in Otago and Southland. (http://trafinz.org.nz/workspace/downloads/byfield-jeremy-140815-55da4851e0a39.pdf)


Not a bad assumption, and I would not let it ruin your ride down south. Just remember there are a lot of tourists down here, some of them do dumb shit, just don't get wound up, laugh at them and ride on. Treat the locals the same and chances are you will be fine.

That's interesting information. I've scanned the forum but couldn't find this question answered elsewhere...

There is clearly a perception aided and abetted by the news media that foreign tourist drivers are more likely to cause crashes than the average New Zealand driver.

But surely (okay, I won't call you shirley), and maybe the statisticians on the forum can help out here; for that to be proven, one way or the other, we'd need to know a benchmark like for example, the mileage per day that a tourist drives compared to the Kiwi; so we can compare accident risks for the time on the road. Or maybe the percentage of tourists making up the population on the road at any given time; if say they represent 8% of all crashes down south but 10% of all drivers on the road, that would mean they are safer than us, would it? But heck, I barely scraped a C- pass in Statistics when it was a mandatory part of my uni course...

[Moi]

Ah, them wuz the daze. Day I turned 15 I I borrowed a friend's Vespa (my off-road bike was unroadworthy) and took my test on the steepest hill anyone knew of back then, off Mt Eden Road (can't remember the name of the street but near the Hillsborough end)...

Landscape Road?

[Moise]

Yeah, that would be it. The council cops were based in the building near the corner of Mt Albert and Mt Eden Roads.

[RDJ]

Landscape Road?

That's it!

[Berries]

But surely (okay, I won't call you shirley), and maybe the statisticians on the forum can help out here; for that to be proven, one way or the other, we'd need to know a benchmark like for example, the mileage per day that a tourist drives compared to the Kiwi; so we can compare accident risks for the time on the road. Or maybe the percentage of tourists making up the population on the road at any given time; if say they represent 8% of all crashes down south but 10% of all drivers on the road, that would mean they are safer than us, would it? But heck, I barely scraped a C- pass in Statistics when it was a mandatory part of my uni course...
Nail on the head right there. Fact is we don't know whether 40% of the drivers in one area are from overseas or 60%. When they are involved in 50% of the crashes that makes a big difference. When people shout that ten times as many tourists crash in Queenstown than in Gore for instance it's like, yeah, no shit Sherlock.

Until we microschip every Johhny Foreigner who turns up on our shores we will never know the true picture. Some of the rental agencies can collate that information and some are now passing it on, but that only represents a certain type of visitor. Some 20yo German backbacker is not going to be hiring an Apex car for three months, they are going to jump on Trademe, buy a cheap van and remain invisible unless they crash.

[jasonu]

Ah, them wuz the daze. Day I turned 15 I I borrowed a friend's Vespa (my off-road bike was unroadworthy) and took my test on the steepest hill anyone knew of back then, off Mt Eden Road (can't remember the name of the street but near the Hillsborough end).

...

Landscape rd. I used to deliver milk up that street. I quit after 3 days...

[Voltaire]

Landscape rd. I used to deliver milk up that street. I quit after 3 days...

Back in the day I used to get my Z1000J up to 100 k going up there, wouldn't do it now as too many foreigners living up there now, and you know how its only them that do stupid things.....:eek:

Eventually I was knocked off by an old lady who came out of a side street...bloody pensioner cagers.

[Moi]

Back in the day I used to get my Z1000J up to 100 k going up there, wouldn't do it now as too many foreigners living up there now, and you know how its only them that do stupid things.....:eek:

Eventually I was knocked off by an old lady who came out of a side street...bloody pensioner cagers.

That last sentence conjures up many images...

BTW, did you ever try the same on the Bullock Track?

[Voltaire]

That last sentence conjures up many images...

BTW, did you ever try the same on the Bullock Track?

I was charged with Dangerous Driving as I was on a large bike and she only came thru a Give Way sign.... those MOT pricks.

Bullock Track was on the CB 500/4.

From never ridden a bike to SL 125 to CB 500/4 to Z1000 in the space of 18 months :eek:

I went overseas for 7 years after that and honed my skills on the mean streets of Sydney, London, and Europe.

These days its old bikes with 50/60 HP...

[jasonu]

That last sentence conjures up many images...

BTW, did you ever try the same on the Bullock Track?

I think landscape rd was steeper and longer than the Bullock Track. Prolly narrower if you count cars parked on both sides of the road which was mostly the case.

[Voltaire]

Hells Grannies


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygy7UDADXDg

[RDJ]

I think landscape rd was steeper and longer than the Bullock Track. Prolly narrower if you count cars parked on both sides of the road which was mostly the case.

I don't know about narrower, depends how many cars are parked on either side, but certainly sure it's steeper...

Back in that day, helmets were not compulsory. The only way I could get my parents to agree to let me take my test was to buy a helmet. No one talked / knew much about helmets and boots and safety gear in those days, I think that (open face) helmet lasted me seven years... certainly the rest of secondary school and most of my uni course. On the other hand, the Army surplus boots I bought would generally wear out in less than a couple of years at most, due to them being used as brakes :msn-wink: and as for gloves? we don't need no steenking gloves, gringo... The safety gear available on the market these days is truly excellent, although as always, it's worth paying for the more expensive stuff. Arai and Shoei helmets, Rev-It jackets, Draggin' Jeans and Timax gloves... all good, but not cheap.

[jasonu]

Back in that day, helmets were not compulsory..

You must be reeeaalllllyyy old.

[RDJ]

You must be reeeaalllllyyy old.

There is simply no truthful option but to plead guilty to that Jason, Your Honour :laugh:

FYI: From 1955 NZ motorcyclists were required to wear helmets when exceeding 50 kilometres an hour. Helmets for motorcyclists and pillion riders became compulsory regardless of speed in 1973...

And can you believe there were actually scofflaws back in the day, who exceeded 30 miles an hour without a helmet??? I know, it beggars belief!!

[jasonu]

There is simply no truthful option but to plead guilty to that Jason, Your Honour :laugh:

FYI: From 1955 NZ motorcyclists were required to wear helmets when exceeding 50 kilometres an hour. Helmets for motorcyclists and pillion riders became compulsory regardless of speed in 1973...

And can you believe there were actually scofflaws back in the day, who exceeded 30 miles an hour without a helmet??? I know, it beggars belief!!

I remember I think in the late 80's they made it possible to get a medical exemption for helmet wearing. The first 2 were in the Harold. An old lady who said a helmet gave her a headache and the biggest fattest maori bloke who claimed he couldn't find a helmet that was big enough.