Meth War inevitable? What d'ya reckon?

[PrincessBandit]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/79025635/new-zealands-first-meth-war-inevitable-if-the-head-hunters-continue-expansion

Pretty scary stuff to the ordinary joe in the street, but how likely do you reckon this is?
Media scare tactics or something to genuinely be worried about?

If it's truly the road NZ is heading down (and I suspect there's at least some fire causing this smoke) do we take the lead from Indonesia or what? I just wish the arseholes who are responsible for the devastation caused by these drugs would all suddenly die from their evil shit.

[mashman]

Ahhhh commerce.

[HenryDorsetCase]

i have it on good authority that the meth problem in chur chur is out of control. Cashed up tradies looking for a hit or something to keep them going. lots of work on and money round. it has bought the "big brand" distributors i.e. Headhunters, Hells Angels, Bandidos and Rebels MC.

That work is showing signs of tailing off, and so those brands will be fighting for market share in a shrinking market. If you think it is bad now, it will be worse in 3 to 5 years. One of the raids last week (Headhunters I think) netted an actual pistol as well as drugs and money.

The other interesting thing is allegedly the meth flows north to south, and the money flows south to north. The local branches of the big brands are wholly owned subsidiaries and all the money is made at head office. So the po po are concentrating on head office using the Proceeds of Crime legislation. Leaving the street level and vilence stuff unpoliced and in another jurisdiction effectively. Local po po disestablished the fraud squad (now handled by one or two general duties investigators) and we now have a gang squad. hopefully that will make a difference.

The introduction of the big brands is just about chasing the money. a purer example of supply and demand economic theory would be hard to find IMO.

[cynna]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/79025635/new-zealands-first-meth-war-inevitable-if-the-head-hunters-continue-expansion

Pretty scary stuff to the ordinary joe in the street, but how likely do you reckon this is?
Media scare tactics or something to genuinely be worried about?

If it's truly the road NZ is heading down (and I suspect there's at least some fire causing this smoke) do we take the lead from Indonesia or what? I just wish the arseholes who are responsible for the devastation caused by these drugs would all suddenly die from their evil shit.

so its not the ones that buy its fault then?

[SPman]

Ahhhh commerce. The free market in action.....you'd think they'd be pleased.

[Laava]

i have it on good authority that the meth problem in chur chur is out of control. Cashed up tradies looking for a hit or something to keep them going.

Like this guy?http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11625163

[mashman]

The free market in action.....you'd think they'd be pleased.

They are... just think about the new rules they can make and enforce :wacko:

[Katman]

They are... just think about the new rules they can make and enforce :wacko:

Judith Collins will be getting all bubbly in the gusset.

[Madness]

Judith Collins will be getting all bubbly in the gusset.

. :puke:


i have it on good authority that the meth problem in chur chur is out of control. Cashed up tradies looking for a hit or something to keep them going.

Only 3 sleeps 'til the rebuild's finished ;)

[scumdog]

Gee, this is all such a surprise....<_<

[Grumph]

i have it on good authority that the meth problem in chur chur is out of control. Cashed up tradies looking for a hit or something to keep them going. lots of work on and money round. it has bought the "big brand" distributors i.e. Headhunters, Hells Angels, Bandidos and Rebels MC.

A few weeks back when the news was full of the new units in Auckland being found to be P contaminated already - and the authorities were blaming the tenants...I remarked to the wife that they were probably contaminated before the tenants moved in. I'd be very surprised if a fair amount of the new builds in chCh weren't contaminated too. The house you're building once it's roofed and wrapped is a good private place to go to on a quiet evening...

[Crasherfromwayback]

Judith Collins will be getting all bubbly in the gusset.

Impossible. Her vag has been full of sand for decades. To match her head.

[Edbear]

Gee, this is all such a surprise....<_<

Like nobody could see this coming a mile off...

Gang warfare is just starting off.

[mada]

If only they solved their problems like people do in China...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11624658

[Crasherfromwayback]

Gang warfare is just starting off.

You're kidding yourself. It's been going on for as long as people have been selling religion.

[Edbear]

You're kidding yourself. It's been going on for as long as people have been selling religion.

Let me elaborate. The thread is about meth wars here in NZ. While there has been inter gang violence here for as long as there have been gangs, the thread highlights the increasing tension over a recently developed and highly dangerous drug.

My comment is to say we haven't seen anything yet.

[PrincessBandit]

so its not the ones that buy its fault then?

If it wasn't available they wouldn't be able to buy it. I'm sure there are users who wish, in whatever lucid moments they have, that they had never started on it.
The manufacturers, suppliers and distributors don't give a flying fuck about the lives, families and societies they're destroying, as long as they get their filthy lucre.

Ah, yes, "ah, commerce" - that's all it's all about.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Let me elaborate. The thread is about meth wars here in NZ. While there has been inter gang violence here for as long as there have been gangs, the thread highlights the increasing tension over a recently developed and highly dangerous drug.

My comment is to say we haven't seen anything yet.

Like how various religious fanatical fuckwits have been slaughtering each other for hundreds of years? Or have I missed something?

[mashman]

If it wasn't available they wouldn't be able to buy it. I'm sure there are users who wish, in whatever lucid moments they have, that they had never started on it.
The manufacturers, suppliers and distributors don't give a flying fuck about the lives, families and societies they're destroying, as long as they get their filthy lucre.

Ah, yes, "ah, commerce" - that's all it's all about.

The downside is I've seen this shit for decades back in blighty. Came here to get the kids away from it, but soon realised it was already here and only likely to ramp up as money gets tight and people get desperate. You can bet yer bippy that if there were money in culling the production, the problem wouldn't be anywhere near as bad.

[mashman]

Like how various religious fanatical fuckwits have been slaughtering each other for hundreds of years? Or have I missed something?

Religion, as always, is the excuse. Plenty or articles floating around in regards to murca being behind religious terror organisations. That and the fanatical fuckwits are paid... so technically they're employees :laugh:

[Crasherfromwayback]

The manufacturers, suppliers and distributors don't give a flying fuck about the lives, families and societies they're destroying, as long as they get their filthy lucre.

Ah, yes, "ah, commerce" - that's all it's all about.

Totally true of course. But the flip side of the coin is, that we humans have been looking to get high for as long as we've been breathing. Supply and demand? What happens if the supply drys up?

[mashman]

Totally true of course. But the flip side of the coin is, that we humans have been looking to get high for as long as we've been breathing. Supply and demand? What happens if the supply drys up?

Then they all move back to their gateway drug of choice, you know, booze :eek:

[Edbear]

Like how various religious fanatical fuckwits have been slaughtering each other for hundreds of years? Or have I missed something?

You missed the point of the thread .

[Big Dog]

Am I being cynical in wondering if this isn't a consequence of the tightening of rules around msd funds?


Sent via tapatalk.

[Edbear]

Religion, as always, is the excuse. Plenty or articles floating around in regards to murca being behind religious terror organisations. That and the fanatical fuckwits are paid... so technically they're employees :laugh:

Fanatics are found in many guises. They are in religion, politics, and nationalism.

Certainly the record of religion is reprehensible for its violence, lies and hypocrisy, but then so is the over all history of mankind.

There are good people and there are bad people everywhere in every facet of society.

[Big Dog]

I don't for a second think meth or greed is the consequence... but the escalation of industry must have come from a need for more revenue.

Sent via tapatalk.

[bogan]

What happens if the supply drys up?

Isn't meth supposed to come dry? If it's a bit moist you might find your dealer is rather ineptly cutting it.

[Madness]

It's time to reform our outdated drug laws.

[mashman]

Fanatics are found in many guises. They are in religion, politics, and nationalism.

Certainly the record of religion is reprehensible for its violence, lies and hypocrisy, but then so is the over all history of mankind.

There are good people and there are bad people everywhere in every facet of society.

True... so we blame the institution and tar the "good" ones. Such a smart species ;).

[Crasherfromwayback]

You missed the point of the thread .

I think you missed the brain queue.

[TheDemonLord]

It's time to reform our outdated drug laws.

I'm agreeing with Madness.






Fuck.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I'm agreeing with Madness.






Fuck.

You'd be fucked in the head if you didn't.

[Berries]

If it wasn't available they wouldn't be able to buy it.
If it was available in New World you could remove the gangs from the equation.

[Akzle]

Ahhhh commerce.

:clap: must spread

[Akzle]

Am I being cynical in wondering if this isn't a consequence of the tightening of rules around msd funds?


Sent via tapatalk.

Cynnical is not the word id use. Inappurtenant is.

[Akzle]

A few weeks back when the news was full of the new units in Auckland being found to be P contaminated already - and the authorities were blaming the tenants...I remarked to the wife that they were probably contaminated before the tenants moved in. I'd be very surprised if a fair amount of the new builds in chCh weren't contaminated too. The house you're building once it's roofed and wrapped is a good private place to go to on a quiet evening...

and smoked meth residue doesn't do fuck.
Yes, you can test for it, but you can also test for oxygen, and signs of intelligent life.
It's the manufcturing that's nasty.

[Akzle]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/79025635/new-zealands-first-meth-war-inevitable-if-the-head-hunters-continue-expansion


i liked this bit
"success hinged
on operating a business model"

it's funny, because as long as you're worried about blacks, you wont think too hard about banks and jews. Youll keep you head down and keep going to work and vote for the police to save you. Like they have. Ever.

[Akzle]

If only they solved their problems like people do in China...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11624658

consumption// err... Production fallen two thirds!??!

Lawdy lawdy!

Guess they must have filled those ghost cities and now need more debt// err... Jewgold// err.. GD"Productivity"
fuck,
stuppid coonts.

[jonbuoy]

The war on drugs seems to be about as successful and logical as the war on terror. Decriminalise it the price will drop through the floor - good chance it will self regulate through education like tobacco has. It's not like if they decriminalised tommorrow millions of people are going to rush out and try it. It's still going to be a shit drug and would fall out of favour for better alternatives.

[mashman]

The war on drugs seems to be about as successful and logical as the war on terror. Decriminalise it the price will drop through the floor - good chance it will self regulate through education like tobacco has. It's not like if they decriminalised tommorrow millions of people are going to rush out and try it. It's still going to be a shit drug and would fall out of favour for better alternatives.

+1... apart from the price drop.

[Laava]

The war on drugs seems to be about as successful and logical as the war on terror. Decriminalise it the price will drop through the floor - good chance it will self regulate through education like tobacco has. It's not like if they decriminalised tommorrow millions of people are going to rush out and try it. It's still going to be a shit drug and would fall out of favour for better alternatives.

I totally agree if you are talking about weed, but we are talking about P and decriminalising it is going to make fuck all difference. It is a much more antisocial drug than weed, much more dangerous to the individual and not easy to make or produce at home, unike weed which will essentially grow wild. So there will always be a criminal element to control the manufacture and supply.

[Edbear]

I think you missed the brain queue.

I'm not the one who introduced religion to a thread about meth wars in NZ... <_<

[Banditbandit]

We have to ask ourselves, in this "South Pacific paradise' why we have one of the highest use/abuse of drug and alcohol rates in the world. Why do we have one of the highest suicide/Youth suicide rates in the world. (and all our other low performance statistics ..) Can't our people see that those two ideas might be linked?

People say drugs area 'gang problem' a 'health problem" ...

Bullshit - it's a social problem.

What is it about our society that people want to leave it - either by "getting out of it" or by topping themselves ??? What are people trying to escape from?

Until we can answer that question, and put in the appropriate social response, we will never win a "war of drugs".

[Ocean1]

We have to ask ourselves, in this "South Pacific paradise' why we have one of the highest use/abuse of drug and alcohol rates in the world. Why do we have one of the highest suicide/Youth suicide rates in the world. (and all our other low performance statistics ..) Can't our people see that those two ideas might be linked?

People say drugs area 'gang problem' a 'health problem" ...

Bullshit - it's a social problem.

What is it about our society that people want to leave it - either by "getting out of it" or by topping themselves ??? What are people trying to escape from?

Until we can answer that question, and put in the appropriate social response, we will never win a "war of drugs".

Do we have one of the highest drug abuse rates in the world? And I don't believe you're anywhere near the first person to link drugs with suicide. In fact you might be almost the slowest cab off that rank.

And yes, removing the focus of the problem from gangs and health providers and blaming "society" is an excellent way to redistribute the blame. More: it means it's down to "society" to "fix" the "problem".

Whereas in fact the problem, as defined by that "society" you're blaming for it can and should be laid squarely at the feet of the illegal distribution and use. Criminals. The ones who invariably blame "society" for pretty much everything.

[Paul in NZ]

Frankly I know more about building a space rocket than I do about meth, other than the shock horror stuff in the papers. The conventional wisdom seems to be that you only need to look at a piece of meth and you are hooked for life. Given the amount of the stuff being produced and (apparently) consumed – surely that can’t be right???

If tradesmen are using and still turning up for work – is this stuff really that addictive? I mean I’m sure it’s highly addictive and for some, instantly so but is it any worse than the demon drugs from my generation? Is there such a thing as a casual user?? Do people ever get off the stuff?

As for why do we have so many issues with drugs and alcohol? Maybe because we are all trying to be mini Americans in a place that can never be a mini America (or the film and TV version of). NZ needs a stronger local identity and a belief that actually it’s OK to be that way?

[Banditbandit]

Do we have one of the highest drug abuse rates in the world?

Go here ... http://www.anewzealand.com/statistics-bad.php



And I don't believe you're anywhere near the first person to link drugs with suicide. In fact you might be almost the slowest cab off that rank.

I'm not linking drugs and suicide in any cause and effect relationship - I'm suggesting that drug abuse and suicide are BOTH symptoms of a society with major issues ..



And yes, removing the focus of the problem from gangs and health providers and blaming "society" is an excellent way to redistribute the blame. More: it means it's down to "society" to "fix" the "problem".

Whereas in fact the problem, as defined by that "society" you're blaming for it can and should be laid squarely at the feet of the illegal distribution and use. Criminals. The ones who invariably blame "society" for pretty much everything.

What a typically knee-jerk reaction from you ...

No, I am not shifting the blame from the dealers and crims. However, they do not create the conditions under which they can sell their products. They do not create the demand.

On your same basis, we can blame the pubs, hotels, clubs and liquor stores for alcoholism ...

What I am suggesting is that there are major social problems in this country which lead people to commit suicide and to use drugs .. if those social problems are recognized and solutions put in place, then the market for illicit drugs (and legal ones) will dry up ...

Simply locking up the dealers will not reduce the demand for their product - and the gap in the supply chain will be filled by others (until they too are locked up .. and so on). Sure - lock up the crims, but don't expect the demand to dry up because of that action.

Deal with the demand issues as well as dealing with the supply issues ...

[Jin]

The war on drugs seems to be about as successful and logical as the war on terror. Decriminalise it the price will drop through the floor - good chance it will self regulate through education like tobacco has. It's not like if they decriminalised tommorrow millions of people are going to rush out and try it. It's still going to be a shit drug and would fall out of favour for better alternatives.
Yup its not an accident that alcohol and tobacco has become weaker and safer over time and illegal drugs have become stronger and more dangerous. Make nothing illegal and big pharma will step in and make them safe(r). And people who wanted to take drugs would at least have a choice to take something less dangerous. Synthetics became popular because they were legal but i bet those users would have preferred to take the natural safe version. Crack is far more dangerous than cocaine and it was invented because cocaine and heroin were becoming harder and more expensive to get at the time. Same goes for P. Easy and cheap to make.

[bogan]

I totally agree if you are talking about weed, but we are talking about P and decriminalising it is going to make fuck all difference. It is a much more antisocial drug than weed, much more dangerous to the individual and not easy to make or produce at home, unike weed which will essentially grow wild. So there will always be a criminal element to control the manufacture and supply.

Which raises an excellent point, would legalising weed, lower useage of drugs which are actually harmful? They say it's a gateway drug, and I guess it is, but not for the chemically addicting nature (which is fuck all for weed, lets be honest) but simply because it's an illegal substance whose use promotes the same mindset and distribution channels as meth.

[jonbuoy]

A lot of Arabic countries look at Alchohol no differently than we do cocaine or meth. And to some degree I can see where they are coming from.

Black market and moonshine alchohol is far more dangerous than a pint at the local. So maybe we should "approve" and regulate some drugs - for people that don't/can't drink alchohol but still want something to take the edge off on a weekend? I have easy access to tobacco and alchohol - I like a drink and really suffered living in a dry country. By like a drink I mean a couple of beers or a few glasses of wine socially - not getting body bagged every night. So am I an addict - yup probably. But the thing that stops me drinking heavily all the time are the side effects - not the level of access.

[Edbear]

Yup its not an accident that alcohol and tobacco has become weaker and safer over time and illegal drugs have become stronger and more dangerous. Make nothing illegal and big pharma will step in and make them safe(r). And people who wanted to take drugs would at least have a choice to take something less dangerous. Synthetics became popular because they were legal but i bet those users would have preferred to take the natural safe version. Crack is far more dangerous than cocaine and it was invented because cocaine and heroin were becoming harder and more expensive to get at the time. Same goes for P. Easy and cheap to make.

Are you serious???? :blink:

[Madness]

Which raises an excellent point, would legalising weed, lower usage of drugs which are actually harmful?

I believe it would have a positive effect on reducing the use of P, providing we also saw a significant reduction in the price of Maltesers.

[jonbuoy]

Are you serious???? :blink:

He's got a point - if the government banned spirits tommorrow we would see more of this. At the moment we see nothing wrong with someone sitting down with a Cuban cigar and a single malt whisky. Ingesting and inhaling toxic substances for pleasure - what's the difference?

http://www.abc.net.au/local/audio/2013/06/13/3781104.htm

[bogan]

I believe it would have a positive effect on reducing the use of P, providing we also saw a significant reduction in the price of Maltesers.

But, Maltesers are gateway chocolate; you only move on to heavier stuff after that...




















...until your arse get's so big you can't fit through the gateway and Unstuck takes you back to his lair...

[nodrog]

Apparently the highest meth use is by unemployed people.

What do they need to take speed for?

So they can sit around and do fuckall faster?

[Jin]

Are you serious???? :blink:
Yes. There is a huge range of low content alcohol beers and wines available. And total alcohol consumption in NZ has been falling for a long time. Same goes for cigarettes. You dont see it much here but there are low tar options available.

Edit. You wont ever see this happen in the black market because it pays a pusher to make someone an addict. They then have a captive buyer.

[Paul in NZ]

Crack is far more dangerous than cocaine and it was invented because cocaine and heroin were becoming harder and more expensive to get at the time. Same goes for P. Easy and cheap to make.

Nope - Japanese guy made it in 1893 or something... They gave it to german armed forces in ww2..

[Madness]

You dont see it much here but there are low tar options available.

Even the tobacco companies concede that low tar cigarettes are no less harmful than full strength variants. It's accepted that smokers of low tar cigarettes tend to compensate by smoking a shitload more than their red-packet cousins.

[nodrog]

this meth war sounds like fun, I hope they allow other drug users to participate.


http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/newreply.php?p=1130964818&noquote=1

[Crasherfromwayback]

Apparently the highest meth use is by unemployed people.

What do they need to take speed for?

So they can sit around and do fuckall faster?

Which reminds me. Have you seen Requiem For A Dream?

[buggerit]

The social cost of this drug would pay for a a lot of boarder control, put the horse back on the front of the cart?

[nodrog]

Which reminds me. Have you seen Requiem For A Dream?

Is that the porno with Susan Boyle?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Is that the porno with Susan Boyle?

Lol. You cunt! The mental image...arrrrgh

[awayatc]

The social cost of this drug would pay for a a lot of boarder control, put

get rid of that boarder if he bothers you.....

[jonbuoy]

Not sure that the drug dealers and producers want it legalised either it's not in their interests - what else are they going to use to get power and money - prostitutions gone legit, we all steal music and movies off the internet so no hooky CD/ DVD's, porn industry has gone corporate, no one steals car stereos anymore. What's left for your local shady character to do if drugs go?

[Edbear]

Yes. There is a huge range of low content alcohol beers and wines available. And total alcohol consumption in NZ has been falling for a long time. Same goes for cigarettes. You dont see it much here but there are low tar options available.

Edit. You wont ever see this happen in the black market because it pays a pusher to make someone an addict. They then have a captive buyer.

And also some higher percentage beers too, the low tar cigs are like low sugar drinks. A sop to the do gooders who think it makes a difference.

[Madness]

What's left for your local shady character to do if drugs go?

Forex trading and Tinder stand-overs?

[Ocean1]

Go here ... http://www.anewzealand.com/statistics-bad.php

Well I guess you would, if you were looking for confirmation of your particular beliefs.

Otherwise you'd probably go here: http://www.anewzealand.com/statistics-good.php

But you go right ahead with your wee confirmation bias experiment.

You are experimenting, right?


I'm not linking drugs and suicide in any cause and effect relationship - I'm suggesting that drug abuse and suicide are BOTH symptoms of a society with major issues ..

If society did what was required to manage poor personal decisions and bad behaviour you'd be the very first to bleat like fuck.


What a typically knee-jerk reaction from you ...

No, I am not shifting the blame from the dealers and crims. However, they do not create the conditions under which they can sell their products. They do not create the demand.

On your same basis, we can blame the pubs, hotels, clubs and liquor stores for alcoholism ...


It's a knee jerk reaction to point out that bad behaviour is the fault of those behaving badly?

And you most certainly are attempting to shift blame. It's not society's fault that dealers and users cause the damage they do, is it? It's the fucking dealers and users fault. Isn't it?

There's certainly a place for help from society for users, and effective policing and sentencing of the illegal trade in drugs, we're already spending shitloads on it, as you well know. But don't try to pretend that it's society's fault that it hasn't fixed every individual's bad behaviour.



What I am suggesting is that there are major social problems in this country which lead people to commit suicide and to use drugs .. if those social problems are recognized and solutions put in place, then the market for illicit drugs (and legal ones) will dry up ...

Couldn't agree more. Social welfare here has a lot to answer for, don't it?

[Swoop]

Whereas in fact the problem, as defined by that "society" you're blaming for it can and should be laid squarely at the feet of the illegal distribution and use. Criminals.

Following the trail here...
The users are feeding the dealers ($$'s).
The dealers feed the meth cooks,
The cooks feed the suppliers (motorcycle gangs), who then spend the profits in the most hideous way possible,
Purchasing harley davidsons.

Time to stop this lunacy.

[Crasherfromwayback]

The sooner we make drug usage a health issue rather than a criminal issue the better.

[Jin]

The sooner we make drug usage a health issue rather than a criminal issue the better.
It was just a few weeks ago Dunne said the same thing drugs should be treated as a health issue. Then in the same breath said he didnt think drugs should be legalised or decriminalised.

[nzspokes]

The sooner we make drug usage a health issue rather than a criminal issue the better.

Well it kinda is really. Plenty working in addiction services. :bleh:

[Crasherfromwayback]

It was just a few weeks ago Dunne said the same thing drugs should be treated as a health issue. Then in the same breath said he didnt think drugs should be legalised or decriminalised.

Yeah but that guy is a raving cock smoker. I like vages.

[OddDuck]

We have to ask ourselves, in this "South Pacific paradise' why we have one of the highest use/abuse of drug and alcohol rates in the world. Why do we have one of the highest suicide/Youth suicide rates in the world. (and all our other low performance statistics ..) Can't our people see that those two ideas might be linked?

People say drugs area 'gang problem' a 'health problem" ...

Bullshit - it's a social problem.

What is it about our society that people want to leave it - either by "getting out of it" or by topping themselves ??? What are people trying to escape from?

Until we can answer that question, and put in the appropriate social response, we will never win a "war of drugs".

Agree. Loads of New Zealanders are having rough as guts hard lives.

We like to think that this is an egalitarian society, that anyone here can have a fair go... Nope. If you're a moneyed-up caucasian Baby Boomer then this place is awesome. If you're almost anyone else then it's a different story.

Dysfunction - politics, the workplace, public services - has become a plague. I mean, pick an area - any area - and go to it. It's just everywhere.

News media doesn't help either. MSM is all about the news that sells. Shock value sells. So loads of it is a horror show. Not good for a person's outlook if they read too much of it for too long, heaps of it is confirming people's fears and negativity.

We just love to tear each other down, too. Criticism, negative reinforcement... we're damn good at that stuff. Bossing each other around, turning everything into a fight or a drama, and never forgetting a wrong. We like to think we're easygoing, these days I'm really not sure it's true anymore.

Detail overload, all the stuff you've gotta keep track of... never seems like it gets lighter.

Last thing I'll say (gotta get to work) is that people need people. We need a certain amount of human time, a certain amount of meeting new people. We've always been reserved, but it's getting really impersonal out there.

Lonely, broke, got no options, stuck in a shit job and everything sucks... why wouldn't you look for a way out?

[PrincessBandit]

He's got a point - if the government banned spirits tommorrow we would see more of this. At the moment we see nothing wrong with someone sitting down with a Cuban cigar and a single malt whisky. Ingesting and inhaling toxic substances for pleasure - what's the difference?


I don't think a stogie (or even an expensive fat Cuban fire turd) with a single malt whisky turn their ingestors into psychotic paranoid wackos though.

[Banditbandit]

What's left for your local shady character to do ?

Politics

(+10 fucken more characters)

[Banditbandit]

If society did what was required to manage poor personal decisions and bad behaviour you'd be the very first to bleat like fuck.


If you think drug use is a 'bad behavior problem" then there is no point in continuing this conversation ..




It's a knee jerk reaction to point out that bad behaviour is the fault of those behaving badly?

And you most certainly are attempting to shift blame. It's not society's fault that dealers and users cause the damage they do, is it? It's the fucking dealers and users fault. Isn't it?

You're looking at the crims only - sure they are part of the problem - deal with them appropriately.


There's certainly a place for help from society for users, and effective policing and sentencing of the illegal trade in drugs, we're already spending shitloads on it, as you well know. But don't try to pretend that it's society's fault that it hasn't fixed every individual's bad behaviour.

You've missed my point - deal with the social conditions that create the users ... before they become users .. Once someone is an addict it's pretty much too late - only 10% of addicts ever recover ..



Couldn't agree more. Social welfare here has a lot to answer for, don't it?

Yeah - the way social welfare works in our current society is part of the wider social issues ..

[Banditbandit]

I don't think a stogie (or even an expensive fat Cuban fire turd) with a single malt whisky turn their ingestors into psychotic paranoid wackos though.

Yeah ???

http://www.radionz.co.nz/assets/news/33137/eight_col_Winston_Peters.jpg?1423534692

[Crasherfromwayback]

Lonely, broke, got no options, stuck in a shit job and everything sucks... why wouldn't you look for a way out?

Nailed it.

[Katman]

Nailed it.

Dude, move to Taupo. :eek:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Dude, move to Taupo. :eek:

Lol. Well I'll certainly be trucking through there before too long!

[OddDuck]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/79025635/new-zealands-first-meth-war-inevitable-if-the-head-hunters-continue-expansion

Pretty scary stuff to the ordinary joe in the street, but how likely do you reckon this is?
Media scare tactics or something to genuinely be worried about?

If it's truly the road NZ is heading down (and I suspect there's at least some fire causing this smoke) do we take the lead from Indonesia or what? I just wish the arseholes who are responsible for the devastation caused by these drugs would all suddenly die from their evil shit.

Just jumping back to the start... Something I'd read about the big bikie gangs in Oz and what happened with the trading of meth and rapid expansion. There was a war, but it wasn't gang vs gang so much. Internal rivalries boiled over and the wars were internal to the gangs, faction vs faction inside the same chapters. From memory (can't post links sorry) this happened to several gangs, so it got sort of predictable... about two years after a chapter started serious meth dealing, it imploded. Wouldn't be too much of a reach to imagine the same thing happening here.

[PrincessBandit]

If they all succumbed to the effects of their vile shit, even if only by going at each other, I'd think it was suitable justice.

[cynna]

If it wasn't available they wouldn't be able to buy it. I'm sure there are users who wish, in whatever lucid moments they have, that they had never started on it.
The manufacturers, suppliers and distributors don't give a flying fuck about the lives, families and societies they're destroying, as long as they get their filthy lucre.

Ah, yes, "ah, commerce" - that's all it's all about.



ahhhhs so its kfc. macdonalds etc fault for all the fatties around. its there so they must eat it? thats right they are all just victems

how available is meth tho? no one has ever offered it to me and ive never seen anyone selling it on the street corner

[cynna]

Not sure that the drug dealers and producers want it legalised either it's not in their interests - what else are they going to use to get power and money - prostitutions gone legit, we all steal music and movies off the internet so no hooky CD/ DVD's, porn industry has gone corporate, no one steals car stereos anymore. What's left for your local shady character to do if drugs go?

law school and a new career maybe?

[Edbear]

ahhhhs so its kfc. macdonalds etc fault for all the fatties around. its there so they must eat it? thats right they are all just victems

how available is meth tho? no one has ever offered it to me and ive never seen anyone selling it on the street corner

You both have a point. After a certain point, over eating becomes addictive and the person craves food, especially junk food. Food addiction needs to be treated like drug addiction. That's why many operations, like stomach stapling, fail. However you don't become addicted to junk food just by eating it, it goes back to the family environment where over eating is normal.

The difference with P is that it is highly addictive to start with and people are far more likely to become addicted from trying it.

Princess makes the same argument I do against tobacco companies. Both of them are produced by people who know full well the health consequences but produce these dangerous drugs deliberately to addict in order to make money. By definition, they are at least guilty of manslaughter, but also of murder.

The same law that allows a charge of vehicular manslaughter should be applied to drug manufacturers and pushers.

[Paul in NZ]

The difference with P is that it is highly addictive to start with and people are far more likely to become addicted from trying it.

.

Is it? No one answered my question earlier?

Frankly I know more about building a space rocket than I do about meth, other than the shock horror stuff in the papers. The conventional wisdom seems to be that you only need to look at a piece of meth and you are hooked for life. Given the amount of the stuff being produced and (apparently) consumed – surely that can’t be right???

If tradesmen are using and still turning up for work – is this stuff really that addictive? I mean I’m sure it’s highly addictive and for some, instantly so but is it any worse than the demon drugs from my generation? Is there such a thing as a casual user?? Do people ever get off the stuff?

As for why do we have so many issues with drugs and alcohol? Maybe because we are all trying to be mini Americans in a place that can never be a mini America (or the film and TV version of). NZ needs a stronger local identity and a belief that actually it’s OK to be that way?

[Ocean1]

If you think drug use is a 'bad behavior problem" then there is no point in continuing this conversation ..

So, now, it was society that made the choice to sell or use drugs?

Because that's what defines where the fault lies, innit? It's down to who made that choice? Anything else is just bullshit, a juvenile attempt to avoid the consequences of poor decisions.

Again: it'll be society's fault when it was society that made the choice, and like I said, that's not somewhere any adult wants to be, is it?


You've missed my point - deal with the social conditions that create the users ... before they become users .. Once someone is an addict it's pretty much too late - only 10% of addicts ever recover ..

If there's a "social condition" that creates users it's affluence and spare time.


Yeah - the way social welfare works in our current society is part of the wider social issues ..

Affluence and spare time created largely by social welfare.

Which sorta hints at the sort of change required of society to fix the problem, dunnit?

[jonbuoy]

I don't think a stogie (or even an expensive fat Cuban fire turd) with a single malt whisky turn their ingestors into psychotic paranoid wackos though.

Neither would smoking a joint or a few lines of Coke. Anything taken to excess leads to bad things. Walk around a city centre on a Friday/Saturday night and watch the alchohol fueled carnage. People turn to poor "quality" drugs because the higher "quality" drugs aren't easily available.

You can't stop people wanting to get "high" be it alchohol, nicotine or class a drugs. All have negative side effects taken to excess. If people are heavily using drugs/alchohol it's a mental health issue not a criminal issue. They aren't intending to set out to commit a crime - usually it's an addictive personality disorder or trying to block something out.

[mashman]

Is it? No one answered my question earlier?

Frankly I know more about building a space rocket than I do about meth, other than the shock horror stuff in the papers. The conventional wisdom seems to be that you only need to look at a piece of meth and you are hooked for life. Given the amount of the stuff being produced and (apparently) consumed – surely that can’t be right???

If tradesmen are using and still turning up for work – is this stuff really that addictive? I mean I’m sure it’s highly addictive and for some, instantly so but is it any worse than the demon drugs from my generation? Is there such a thing as a casual user?? Do people ever get off the stuff?

As for why do we have so many issues with drugs and alcohol? Maybe because we are all trying to be mini Americans in a place that can never be a mini America (or the film and TV version of). NZ needs a stronger local identity and a belief that actually it’s OK to be that way?

‘Crystal meth makes you a better driver,’ professor says (http://metro.co.uk/2015/06/30/drug-driver-cleared-after-court-told-crystal-meth-makes-you-a-better-driver-5273913/). I'm trying to point out, that after a hard night on the piss, or a woman, something like crystal meth would help one get through the day quite comfortably. Expensive, but meh, if you have the cash and it's once in a while, or even every day for breakfast, meh.

Now, I've never taken crystal meth, but I get the idea from whatever experiences I've had in the past. The mind is prone to chemical persuasion, for instance, sugar works for kids. You can get smashed if you "abuse" things, and as with almost anything we hear the horror stories. We don't hear about the lots of peeps out there not in horror story territory. Gotta wonder what true user numbers are. (no need to rock any financial boat).

On that note, sorry BB, but I'm with Banditbandit. Society is so fucked up that it can't actually see that it's fucked up. There is no other way to put it really. Hardly surprising that mental health issues exist to a point where taking the edge off results in an addiction. Drugs have come downs (over a period of time, not just the next day) and each is different. Some are over and done with after a snooze. Some take a while and include anger. Very few people have the time and space to kick those habits, let alone is society equipped to handle it. Ach, money rant ensues with Resource Based Economy thrown in as a potential for addressing the issues yada yada yada...

[Akzle]

how available is meth tho? no one has ever offered it to me and ive never seen anyone selling it on the street corner

want crack nigga?

[mashman]

So, now, it was society that made the choice to sell or use drugs?

Because that's what defines where the fault lies, innit? It's down to who made that choice? Anything else is just bullshit, a juvenile attempt to avoid the consequences of poor decisions.

Again: it'll be society's fault when it was society that made the choice, and like I said, that's not somewhere any adult wants to be, is it?

The paradox of the free market... as in a free market there'd be no cops and therefore no enforcement. Just lots and lots of fucked up people with nowhere to turn to for help. Man do I wanna live there right now <_<.

[Madness]

Is it? No one answered my question earlier?

Frankly I know more about building a space rocket than I do about meth, other than the shock horror stuff in the papers. The conventional wisdom seems to be that you only need to look at a piece of meth and you are hooked for life. Given the amount of the stuff being produced and (apparently) consumed – surely that can’t be right???

I smoked P once about 12 years ago. Rode my ZZR1100 Auckland to Wellington on the stuff. Fuck it was great. Really, really great. I vowed to not use it again and I never have. I like my sleep too much and a lack of sleep is the root of the evil in the substance, in my unqualified opinion.

[Katman]

I've never used it but know a lot of people who have.

Some not so good stories - some not so bad.

The media have made a circus of it on the government's behalf.

[mashman]

mental health

Careful with them labels man, you'll void life policy's :laugh:

[Crasherfromwayback]

I like my sleep too much and a lack of sleep is the root of the evil in the substance, in my unqualified opinion.

And there you have it. Sleep deprivation is used as a torture. Humans are not designed to go days/weeks on end without sleep. Be it stress, or drugs the cause...do so, and you'll come unstuck.

But like anything...drugs, alcohol (a drug of course), lack of sleep, all ok in moderation. Some people handle these things way batter than others. Some people are better off without mood enhancers.

Some get caught up by the law, and get branded drug addicts and a waste of space, when in actual fact, they're law abiding valuable members of society, that simply like to get a bit out of shape every now and then.

[Ocean1]

The paradox of the free market... as in a free market there'd be no cops and therefore no enforcement. Just lots and lots of fucked up people with nowhere to turn to for help. Man do I wanna live there right now <_<.

It stopped being a free market as soon as the product was addictive. Didn't it?

You're talking shit, there's lots of help for addicts. It's just not help that allows them to remain addicts. Which is kinda reasonable, doncha think?

And yes, you've made it quite clear that you want Big Govt to make all your choices for you. Just as long as you can be that Govt.

[Banditbandit]

So, now, it was society that made the choice to sell or use drugs?

Because that's what defines where the fault lies, innit? It's down to who made that choice? Anything else is just bullshit, a juvenile attempt to avoid the consequences of poor decisions.

Again: it'll be society's fault when it was society that made the choice, and like I said, that's not somewhere any adult wants to be, is it?



If there's a "social condition" that creates users it's affluence and spare time.



Affluence and spare time created largely by social welfare.

Which sorta hints at the sort of change required of society to fix the problem, dunnit?



If you think drug use is a 'bad behavior problem" then there is no point in continuing this conversation ..

+the obligatory 10 characters

[Smifffy]

And there you have it. Sleep deprivation is used as a torture. Humans are not designed to go days/weeks on end without sleep. Be it stress, or drugs the cause...do so, and you'll come unstuck.

But like anything...drugs, alcohol (a drug of course), lack of sleep, all ok in moderation. Some people handle these things way batter than others. Some people are better off without mood enhancers.

Some get caught up by the law, and get branded drug addicts and a waste of space, when in actual fact, they're law abiding valuable members of society, that simply like to get a bit out of shape every now and then.

One of the great advantages is, if you're on P, it's only 12 sleeps till Christmas! :lol:

[nodrog]

its a mint drug, helps to get 16 hours of work done, in 45mins.

its only the muppets that give it a bad name -


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efK01bgoa1s&oref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3De fK01bgoa1s&has_verified=1

[mashman]

It stopped being a free market as soon as the product was addictive. Didn't it?

You're talking shit, there's lots of help for addicts. It's just not help that allows them to remain addicts. Which is kinda reasonable, doncha think?

And yes, you've made it quite clear that you want Big Govt to make all your choices for you. Just as long as you can be that Govt.

No, it didn't.

About 12:39.

:killingme... when I'm the govt, govt won't be govt for long. So no, you're making shit up to make yourself feel better. Go hard bro.

[Swoop]

Just lots and lots of fucked up people with nowhere to turn to for help. Man do I wanna live there right now.

You want to live in Parliament?


Sick fucker. I'm disgusted!:(

[mashman]

You want to live in Parliament?


Sick fucker. I'm disgusted!:(

It's societys fault... they made me do it.